1925-06-10

Mr. W. D. EULER (North Waterloo):: I
beg to present the second report of the select standing committee on Railways and Shipping. As it is the intention of the committee to ask for the printing of this rather lengthy report, I would suggest that the reading of it now might be dispensed with.


An hon. MEMBER:: Put the motion fot
printing now.


William Daum Euler: There is another report to
be presented. I will put the motion to-morrow that both be printed.



PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE

Mr. W. C. GOOD (Brant):: I move,
seconded by the hon. member for West Edmonton. (Mr. Kennedy):
Whereas under an order of reference made on the 23rd March, 1925, the standing committee on Public Accounts has had under investigation the methods of
259i
assessment and collection of business profits and income taxes;
Therefore be it resolved, that the said committee on Public Accounts be instructed that they have power to consider and recommend to this House such amendments to the Income War Tax Act as may seem to them advisable.


Mr. SPEAKER:: This might serve as a
notice of motion.


William Charles Good: I should be glad if the House would agree by unanimous consent to have the motion pass now in order to save time.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


William Charles Good: If not, it will stand as a
nbtice of motion.


Hewitt Bostock: It is usual of course for notice to be given in such a case as this, but the motion may be entertained by unanimous consent of the House. Is that consent conceded?


Hon J. A. ROBB (Acting Minister of Finance):: I would direct your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the fact that this is not a report from the Public Accounts committee. I am not questioning the opinions of the hon. members who have moved and seconded this motion, but it seems to me that in the absence of the chairman of the committee the matter might stand as a notice of motion.


Hewitt Bostock: Stands as notice of motion.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. OUIMET:: 1.	Is the Minister of Railways aware that certain ofhcials of the Canadian National Railways are shareholders in the Dominion Oxygen Company Limited, Toronto?
2.	If so, what are the names and addresses of said shareholders?
lion. Mr. GRAHAM:	The Minister of
Railways has inquired of the management, and the latter advises that it has no information on the subject.
GOLD EXPORTS %


Mr. COOTE:: 1.	What amount of gold has been exported from Canada in each year since 1910?
2.	W'hat amount of gold was imported in Canada in each of the above years?
3.	What amount of gold was produced in Canada in each of these years?
4.	What was the amount of gold held in Canada on March 31st, in each of these years by (a) the government; (b) banks; and (c) central gold reserve?
Questions


Hon. Mr. COPP:: 1.	* Gold bearing quartz, dust,		
Year	nuggets, etc.	Gold Bullion	Gold Coin1910..	.. $ 6,110,473	$ 1,534,9981911..	5 364 273	5,802,2631912	7,211,438	6,141,3201913	, .. 11.23L476	14,858,7871914	. 13,376,735	22.221,1471915..	.. 15,409,019	28,234,9731916 .	. 23,989,909	102,318,2811917	, .. 19,671,026	$148,752,755	46,381,7541918	, .. 13,688,700	206,312,376	1,877,4871919	. .. 9,202,033	39.841,697	210,0871920	. .. 5,975,648	23,856,862	24.937,3091921	. .. 3,038,779	24,290,846	9,438,4251922	. .. 2,534,755	18,082.533	5,027,8131923	. .. 5.449,469	1,761,415	25,001,1701924	. .. 17,384.940	12,520,569	12,035,0251925	. .. 27.793,333	2,946,220	974,123* Including 2.	gold bullion up	to 1917.	
Imports Entered for Consumption
		Gold bullion
	British and	in bars, blocks,
	Canadian	ingots, drops,
	Coin and foreign	sheets or plates
Year	gold coin	Unmanufactured1910	.. .. $ 4,988,236	$ 516,5811911	.. .. 7,741.849	1,484,8661912	.. .. 24,096,596	980,9191913	.. .. 3,025,219	1,284,5921914	.. .. 13,659,492	838,9591915	.. .. 1,117,055,024	14.428,3721916	.. .. 32,137,908	1,738,3191917	.. .. 8,653,363	18 333,1851918	.. .. 9,915,761	1,374,5601919 .	1920	.. .. 4,343,874	46,119,6201921	.. .. 6,104,193	1,114.5821922	.. .. 3,872.149	916,0971923	.. .. 25,567,420	887,8111924	.. .. 2,533.793	962,9121925	.. .. 3,287,846	854,446* No record	for 1919 imports.	
3.
Production of Gold in Canada during the Calendar Years 1910-1924
	Fine Ozs.	
1910	. .. 493,707	$10,205,8351911	. .. 473.159	9,781.0771912	. .. 611.885	12,648.7941913	. .. 802,973	16,598.9231914	. .. 773,178	15,983.0071915	. .. 918,056	18,977,9011916	. .. 930,492	19,234,9761917	15,272,9921918	14,463,689
Production of Gold in Canada during the Calendar Years 1910-1924-Con.
Fine Ozs.
1919	766.764	15,850.4231920	765,007	15,814.0981921	926.329	19,148.9201922	1,263.364	26.116,0501923	1,233.341	25,495,4211924	1,525,331	31,531,3894.	Gold	Gold and Subsidiary	Gold inheld by	Coin	Central Gold[arch 31st.	Government	held bv banks	Reserves$ 69 736 110	$28,102,344 34,896,742 36,027,797 39.053,160	1911	74,159 771	98 892 395	1913	98,507,112	1914	.. 101,161,366	45.661,913	nil1915	,. 94,644.423	65.671,275	3,500,0001916	,. 120.931,622	66.372,906	5.460,0001917	.. 118.561338	72,135,431	12.310.0001918	.. 119,941,748	78.255,033	19,210,0001919	,. 121,141,122	80,253,572	10,500,0001920	.. 104,399,455	79.990,826	10,500.0001921	.. 83.381,036	84.731,382	11,502,5331922	,. 84,249.497	76,468.966	9,502,5331923	.. 128.740,130	70.650,447	9,502,5331924	.. 102,079,238	58,616,405	9.502,5331925.. ..	.. 122,811,151	57,135,318	7,002,533


TRENT VALLEY CANAL
Mr. BRETHEN:: 1.	When did construction upon the Trent Valley canal begin?
2.	How much money has been expended on the canal to date?
3.	What is the estimated cost of completion?
4.	What is the total annual expenditure on construction, upkeep and operation, for each of the years 1920, 1921, 1922, 1923 and 1924?
5.	What was the annual revenue during each of the
above years?
6.	What is the nature of the service the Trent Valley canal is intended to perform?


Hon. Mr. GRAHAM:: 1.	In 1833.
2.	To March 31, 1925:
Capital	$19,322,364	75Income	
2,324,443	90Staff (operation)	
1,363,740	78Repairs	(maintenance).. ..	1,296,629	89Total	$24,307,179 323.	$3,164,452.4.	Fiscal years 1920-1924, inclusive:
Fiscal
Year
1920..
1921..
1922..
1923..
1924..
Capital	Income	Staff Operation	Repairs Maintenance	Total1,050,798 13	77,251 36	97,218 42	63,343 38	1,288,611 29379,664 11	310,489 02	106,118 89	91,842 85	888,114 87195.823 04	478,126 50	109.891 51	75,426 37	859.267 42169.655 01	223.340 23	108.268 66	66.480 96	567,744 80159,128 50	129,915 85	113,913 78	88,245 63	488,203 76$1,952,068 79	1,219,122 96	535,411 26	385,339 19
4,091,942 20

Railway Freight Rates
Outside of the renewal of decaying structures, all new construction work has been suspended since 1921.
5.	Fiscal years 1920-1924, inclusive:
1920		$ 4,338 71
1921	
4,162	331922	
187,846	871923	
28,174	561924	
175,268	85Total	$389,791 326.	On completion, the Trent Canal system will provide a through water route for boats of 6-foot draught from Honey Harbour, on the Georgian bay, to Trenton, on lake Ontario, a distance of over 240 miles.


BILL No. 4-ORDER OF PRECEDENCE
Mr. DENIS (St. Denis):: Why did the government arrange for Bill No. 4, which was a public bill introduced by a private member, to be taken up for third reading on June 4, private members having no more days at their disposal ?
Right Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE KING The member for West Calgary (Mr. Shaw) had two opportunities to proceed with the bill and was prepared to do so but at the request of the Prime Minister and of the Minister of Justice, he agreed to postpone the consideration of said bill, subject to the condition and the understanding that he would be given the opportunity of proceeding with it at a later stage of the session, if it could not be reached in the usual way. The government has merely redeemed a pledge made to the member for West Calgary, who has requested this being done.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. BLACK (Halifax):: 1.	Has L. A. Forsythe, or James M. Davison, his partner, received legal work from any department of the government since January 1, 1922?
2.	If so, what are the items, dates, and accounts for the moneys so paid to Mr. Forsythe or Mr. James M. Davison, his partner?
3.	What amount, if any, is stall owing them?
4.	Are they at present an receipt of legal work from the government?


HON. E. N. RHODES
Mr. CARRUTHERS:: 1.	What amounts were paid per year by the government of Canada to the Honourable E. N. Rhodes, during the years 1919-1920, 1920-1921, and 1921-1922?
2.	What amounts were paid during these years for cab or car hire for Mr. Rhodes?



UNOPPOSED MOTION FOR PAPERS


Mr. DOUCET moved:: For a copy of the report made by Lieutenant-Colonel H. A. Machin to the Honourable the Minister of Justice with regard to the Quebec disturbances in the early part of April, 1918.


Mr. LAPOINTE:: I do not know whether there is any report in the Department of Justice, and if there is I am not sure that it is not of a confidential nature. However, if it is possible to bring it down I shall have no objection.


Mr. MEIGHEN:: The question was put on the order paper some time ago and the date of the riots was stated to be in 1917. The return brought down disclosed no report, and that technically was correct inasmuch as the riots occurred in 1918. But there was a report, because it was referred to in a debate in the House and was largely quoted from. It is on the files in the department and there certainly could be nothing confidential about it.


Ernest Lapointe: I have no objection.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals): If I might be allowed to do so on the orders of the day, I desire to give to the House certain information concerning amendments which I propose to move in committee, to Bill No. 181, to amend the Railway Act, 1919. I do this in order that hon. members may have on Hansard notice as to what these amendments are. Personally I am of the opinion that they make no difference in the bill, but they may strengthen it. At the end of subsection (5) of section 3 I shall move to add the following: but shall apply to all the territory west of Fort William covered by tariffs filed with the board under the terms of said agreement at the date of the passing of this act and to all lines of railway now or hereafter constructed by any company subject to the jurisdiction of parliament within such territory.
I shall also move to amend subsection (6) of section 3 by inserting after the word "thereto" in the sixth line the words "within the territory."

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
['I would not think so.']
Mr. MANION:: Will the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Low) endeavour to have
Pulpwood Resources

questions 17, 18 and 19, relating to elevators at the head of the lakes, answered this week if possible? I should like to have the information for the purposes of discussion.



[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. L. P. BANCROFT (Selkirk):: Has an order in council been passed dealing with the disposal of Manitoba's pulpwood resources, and will the government be good enough to lay a copy of it on the table of the House? Further, may we have an assurance that parliament will have an opportunity of discussing this matter before the deal is closed?


Hon. CHARLES STEWART (Argenteuil, Minister of the Interior):: The pulpwood
transaction in question is under consideration at the moment and no return can be made until the matter is. consummated. It is not a matter for discussion in parliament but I have no objection to bringing down the agreement, together with any order in council dealing with the whole matter when it is possible to do so. I have no objection to making a public statement on the matter, but it is one of ordinary sales which we are making from time to time.


Leland Payson Bancroft: Could not the order in council be placed on the table now?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, I will bring it down.


GOVERNMENT OFFICES IN TORONTO
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Sir HENRY DRAYTON (West York) :: I want to ask the Minister of Railways (Mr. Graham) whether the newspapers of Toronto are correct, or whether he is right, in connection with the sale of railway property at the corner of King and Yonge streets, and whether he can give the House any information on the subject.
Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways): As usual, the Minister of Railways is right. To be fair, I may say that the agreement for the proposed sale to which my hon. friend refers has been partially completed. A year or two ago the Canadian National Railways purchased a building at the corner of King and Yonge streets for the purpose of maintaining the location which it had for its offices. Since the purchase of that building various offers have been made to the Canadian National Railways for the building, one of which, made recently, has been seriously

considered. But the method of procedure is for the Canadian National Railway Company to make agreements for sale subject to approval by order in council. I believe a resolution has been passed by the Canadian National Railway Company concerning the sale, but so far it has not come to the government for approval or disapproval by order in council. I expect it in a day or two.


Arthur Meighen: In view of the very
great importance of this matter and of the amount involved, will the Minister of Railways undertake that the facts regarding it shall be laid before the House this week?


Mr. GRAHAM:: That is-


Arthur Meighen: The matter of the sale, or alleged sale, of the property in Toronto and the terms of the sale.


George Perry Graham: Should the Governor in Council not approve of the arrangement, then there would be nothing to lay before the House. But should the Governor in Council approve of the sale, I will be glad to lay all the particulars on the table.


Arthur Meighen: But my point is this: in view of the consequence of the matter, will not the Governor in Council consider it this week and either approve or disapprove the arrangement, so that parliament may know? Or if the Governor in Council have any difficulty in the premises, they might possibly consult parliament-and after that I do not think there would be any difficulty.


George Perry Graham: This council never has any difficulty to speak of-


Arthur Meighen: The Petersen conti-act?


George Perry Graham: -and when the transaction is completed parliament will be entitled to all the details.


Arthur Meighen: It is too late then.


George Perry Graham: The Canadian National management proceeds under the act passed by my right hon. friend (Mr. Meighen) and if there are any loopholes in it I am not responsible. But, if the Governor in Council approves of this arrangement, the particulars will be given parliament, as parliament has a right to them. The Canadian National Railway board is acting under statute giving it authority to do certain things with the approval of the Governor in Council. We hope to be able to deal with the matter this week, but if the resolution does not proceed the government cannot act one way or the other.

Arctic Exploration


EDMONTON, DUNVE'GAN AND BRITISH COLUMBIA RAILWAY
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
iMr. L. J. LADNER (Vancouver South): Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask the Minister of Railways (Mr. Graham) if any conclusion has been reached in connection with the negotiations for the operation of the Edmonton, Dunvegan and British Columbia railway by the Canadian National Railways, following the expiry of the operating lease now held by the Canadian Pacific Railway? If no conclusion has been reached, what is the standing of the negotiations at the present time?
Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways): Mr. Speaker, if my hon. friend thinks for a moment he will realize that the quarter from which to seek definite information is the Premier of the province of Alberta, who has the leasing of the Edmonton, Dun-vegan and British Columbia railway in his hands. As a matter of fact that railway is now under lease to the Canadian Pacific Railway.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. H. H. STEVENS (Vancouver Centre) :: Mr. Speaker, I have in my hand a newspaper despatch from. Washington to the New York Times dealing with a matter ,of very considerable importance to Canada. The despatch is rather lengthy and refers to what is known as the MaoMillan-Byrd scientific expedition into 'the Arctic regions this summer by hydroplane, Two important questions are propounded, one being whether Canada has a valid claim to certain lands lying north of the mainland. Then there is this reference:
High officials in Washington reiterated to-day that the Canadian government has not yet raised the question or discussed with this government the matter of claiming all land between Canada and the pole. It is learned, however, that in a recent informal conversation between Lieutenant Commander Byrd and the Canadian commission here, the latter informally asked whether he had obtained a "permit" to land on Axel Heiburg land. To ask Canada for a permit for Commander Byrd's planes to land on Axel Heiburg land would, of course, imply recognition by America of the Canadian claim of sovereignty over that land, and seems to necessitate decision by this government-
That is, the United States government.
-as to whether it considers that Canada has a valid claim to that region.
Has the Prime Minister any information to furnish as to whether the government of Canada has made any representations to the government K*f the United States on the subject? If no action has been .taken, is there
not a grave danger that the right of Canada to large areas in the north-at present not deemed very valuable, but which in the future may be so-will be jeopardized?


Charles A. Stewart: IMr. Speaker, this government has been very much alive to what we claim to be the possessions of Canada in the northern territory adjacent to the Dominion. Indeed, I made the statement in the House the other evening (that we claimed all the territory lying between meridians 60 and 141. This afternoon when dealing with the estimates of the Department of the Interior I propose to bring down a map to make it clear what precautions we are taking to establish ourselves in that territory and to notify the nationals of foreign countries passing over it that we think Canada should be advised of their plans and that they should ask for permits from the Canadian government. That is the extent to which we have gone at the moment. I might say further to my hon. friend from Vancouver Centre that some considerable time ago a despatch dealing with the subject was sent to Washington, to which we have had no reply.
ALTERNATIVE VOTE On the Orders of the Day:


Mr. R. A. HOEY (Springfield):: Can the Prime Minister foil us, Mr. Speaker, when we may expect the government to proceed with the legislation dealing with the single transferable vote? I'understand that the Prime Minister, near the close of last session, gave a definite promise that the matter would be dealt with some time this session, of which we are getting pretty near the close.


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: As my hon. friend is aware, there are two bills on the order paper relating to the Dominion Elections Act. One is before a committee of the House at the present time. As soon as the committee reports it is our intention to proceed with that bill, and when it is concluded we will take up the measure dealing with the single transferable vote.


Robert Alexander Hoey: It will be disposed of this
session, then?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It depends on how long it takes. We have a good deal of material before us. We are going ahead as fast as we can.
EXPORT OF POWER On the Orders of the Day:


Henry Lumley Drayton: Mr. Speaker, may I ask my hon. friend the Min-
Rhine Frontier

ister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Low) whether he has yet had an opportunity to get out that order in connection with exempting the Ontario Hydro-Electric Commission from taxation on the export of electricity?


Hon. T. A. LOW (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: No order has been passed.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is there anything I can do or that anyone else can do to help, Mr. Speaker?


RHINE FRONTIER
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. J. S. WOODSWORTH (Centre Winnipeg) :: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I asked the
Prime Minister whether Canada was a party to any security pact with France with regard to the Rhineland. I should like to have the assurance of the Prime Minister as to whether Canada is under any obligation with regard to the security pact which has recently been made, and how soon he can give us a statement as to the exact position which Canada has taken in this matter.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I do not know that I can give my hon. friend any more explicit information than that no compact or treaty that I know of has been entered into as yet. What has taken place in respect to the matter to which my hon. friend refers is that Great Britain and France have together negotiated the basis of an agreement for further negotiations with Germany. The discussions in Europe between Great Britain and France have had relation to the possible framing of a security pact, one condition of which is that Germany shall be a member of the League of Nations. The government has been kept informed of these negotiations between Great Britain and France, blit our opinion has not been asked upon them, nor have we been requested to express any view as to what Canada's attitude may or may not be. Until asked and until some expression of view is requested, the government does not propose to precipitate itself into a discussion that is taking place in Great Britain and of which we have no knowledge beyond what has come to us in the manner that I have just described.


HOME BANK
[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. A. ROBB (Acting Minister of Finance) moved the third reading of Bill No.

183, for the relief of the depositors of The Home Bank of Canada.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. A. ROBB (Acting Minister of Finance) moved the second reading of Bill No. 183, to amend The Income War Tax Act, 1917.
William Charles Good: In view of the possibility of further amendments to this act being suggested by the committee on Public Accounts, would it not be better to let the matter stand for a week or so, and proceed with the bill after we have had the suggestions from, the committee?


James Alexander Robb: As I explained to the House yesterday, the government feel-and in this we are supported by the department administering the act-that we have sufficient security without the lien which is proposed here. It is represented to us, and I concur in that view, that if the provision respecting a lien is left there, the result may be a material interference with the business of the country. It seems to me we should expedite the passing of the bill.


William Charles Good: I was misunderstood, I think. I am not objecting to the bill. I only suggested we might let it stand so that further amendments might be incorporated in it. Perhaps that can be done in committee.


James Alexander Robb: I think we will go on with it.
Motion agreed to and bill read the second time.


Mr. COOTE:: Has this bill been printed? It does not seem to be on our files.


James Alexander Robb: It has been printed. I have a copy.


Hewitt Bostock: I have a copy in my hand.


Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: I suggest
that it would be improper to continue with this bill until copies of it are in our hands. They are not on our files.


James Alexander Robb: We can go into committee on it. There is only one clause in the bill. It reads as follows:
1. Section twenty-five of The Income War Tax Act, 1917, as enacted by section seven of chapter forty-six of the statutes of 1924, is repealed.

Income War Tax Act
Mr. ROBB moved that the House go into committee on the bill.
Motion agreed to and the House went into committee, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
On section 1-Lien for income tax repealed.


William Charles Good: I wish to repeat my suggestion now that the bill is in committee; namely, that it should not go out of committee until we have had an opportunity to incorporate in it any further amendments that may be suggested to the Income War Tax Act. Otherwise we shall be in the curious position of introducing two bills in the same session to amend the same act. There are no objections to this particular amendment, but I think it is premature in view of the probability of the offering of further amendments a little later.


James Alexander Robb: As the session is getting well
along, and as there appears to be no objection from any part of the House to the repeal of this section, I suggest that the bill be allowed to go through. We shall be prepared to consider whatever recommendations are made to the House by the committee on Public Accounts, but in the meantime I do not think it is wise to delay this legislation.


George Gibson Coote: Will the minister inform the committee just what this lien covers?


James Alexander Robb: It covers everything-a prior
lien.


George Gibson Coote: On the assets of the person
assessed-is that it?


James Alexander Robb: I understand so, yes.


George Gibson Coote: And this removes the lien
entirely?


James Alexander Robb: Yes.


George Gibson Coote: Was the provision necessary in the first place, or in what respect is the condition different now?


James Alexander Robb: I am not going into a discussion of that. I think it is wise now to repeal it.


George Gibson Coote: I would like to get the reason why it should be repealed. I do not think any reason has so far been given.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I sincerely hope that this bill will be passed. The provision which it repeals is a clog on business; it holds up applications for loans, particularly in the west; it places a mortgagor in the position of not knowing where he stands. The repeal is asked for from every section of the country. Simply because the government was wrong two years ago, should we now object to their getting themselves right in one instance? I
am quite willing to admit that the government are generally wrong.


George Gibson Coote: All I am trying to find out
is why it is being asked for. That has not been stated.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The reason is
simply as I have stated it. There is no proper way of handling this thing from Ottawa. A man may be fortunate in this year's crop and he may have $5,000 to invest. He searches the title of the property on the security of which he proposes to make a loan and finds that it is perfectly clear. After he has made that investment, that loan, a certificate may be mailed from Ottawa conveying the information that a whole lot of income taxes constitute a prior lien against that property. It was an extraordinary, unnecessary, arbitrary and ill-considered measure. The government appear now to be in a moment to calm and considered thought, and we should take advantage of that and get rid of this legislation.


Edward Joseph Garland: Is it not
true that the whole effect of this legislation will be to give to commercial mortgage companies, a prior lien instead of to the government?


Henry Lumley Drayton: No.


Edward Joseph Garland: Well, it
maintains their lien and disposes of the government's lien. I would like to have an explanation from the minister.


Mr. FORKE:: I agree with the views of
the hon. member (Sir Henry Drayton) in regard to this matter, but I think the committee is entitled to some explanation from the minister of just what it means. I know what it means, because I have been familiar with this thing at a previous stage of my career. Undoubtedly the legislation is wrong and constitutes an interference with private contract. But will the minister tell us just what the amendment involves.


James Alexander Robb: I will give my hon. friend an
illustration. Suppose I bought a property from my hon. friend and had only $1,000. to pay him, and he took' a mortgage for $5,000. If later on it was discovered that I owed the government $6,000, the government would have priority over that mortgage for $5,000, and my hon. friend who had sold me that property in good faith would be out his money. We feel that would be unjust to lenders in good faith. It is injurious to debtors also, because fit Works against them borrowing money and being treated leniently, and it is also bad for the national credit. As I
Income War Tax Act

explained yesterday, the government has certain priorities. We have priority over all unsecured creditors in case of insolvency. The government, by merely filing an assessment in the Exchequer court at the end of the time during which the taxpayer may appeal, may Obtain an immediate judgment which binds the property of the taxpayer as soon as it is placed in (he hands of the sheriff. We have ample security now, and I admit frankly as the ex-Finance Minister (Sir Henry Drayton) says, that it would have been just as well if this lien had not been put on.


George Gibson Coote: How will this affect the
amounts that are now due the treasury? Will it do away with the lien that exists for a debt?


James Alexander Robb: There is no lien yet. This
was only to come into force in the fall.


Mr. BAXTER:: There is something more
perhaps that may be said on the subject. I do not want to take up much time, because I really think the House should have passed this without discussion. But among lawyers there is considerable doubt as to whether the bill would have the effect that it is commonly supposed to have. Not long since I happened to be present during the arguing of a case in the Supreme court where, upon another older taxing statute, there was a very interesting discussion. No judgment has been rendered yet, but the argument was put forward very strongly that measures of this character only create what one of the judges termed a hovering charge, something that could only be made applicable when the government tcok some action. I cannot possibly anticipate the decision of the court, but I can say that there is a difference of opinion among lawyers, and no man is in a position to say to-day that this does create such a charge as we want to remove. But there is the danger that it may and surely not only the business world but every man who has any transaction with regard to real estate or any property ought not to be left in a state of uncertainty as to the law. It is far better to repeal this and be clear and know where we are at.
I might add to the illustration the minister gave that it is not merely the case of mortgages whether taken by a loan corporation or not, but if the act does apply immediately as a charge, it applies where there has been an actual sale by one man to another and full payment made, and the man who thinks he has bought the property has taken over an unknown and unascertained obligation from another. That is one possible view of the act, and if it is pushed to its extreme limit, that would be the effect. I did not think

when it was up before that anyone in Canada wanted legislation of that character; I do not think so to-day, and I think the House will do its work best by getting rid of this legislation as quickly as possible.


Arthur Meighen: Having been opposed to the original legislation, I am naturally in favour of its repeal. I inquire of my own self how the minister, who acknowledges that we had ample security already, explains how he ever came to pass this legislation. While I am on my feet may I ask if the minister, as the responsible trustee of the treasury, has ever calculated how much this country would save, how much this parliament would save in time, if wre did not have to correct the blunders of this government.


James Alexander Robb: I have spent a little time correcting some blunders of my right hon. friend as well as my own.


Arthur Meighen: He made some changes,
but he has changed them all back again.


Mr. CAMPBELL:: Do I understand the
minister to say that under the law as it is at present there is automatically, without any registration, a lien created on the property?


James Alexander Robb: No. I said the federal1 government has priority over all unsecured.creditors. We are privileged creditors.


Milton Neil Campbell: Would not another
creditor taking a mortgage on the property be quite secure unless there was anything prior registered against it? Do I understand the Finance department has a claim without registering anything against the title?


James Alexander Robb: That would be the effect.


Edward Joseph Garland: Could not
the same argument be used in the case of defunct banks owing money to the government as is now being used in this case by the minister? If you open the door to this, is it not possible to carry it to an extremity and exempt such banks from repaying the government?


James Alexander Robb: I would not think so.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported.

William Lyon Mackenzie King: I might explain that it
was the intention of the government to proceed early this afternoon with the second reading of Bill No. 181 to amend the Railway Act. My hon. friend the leader of the Progressives (Mr. Forke) has asked that we should

Supply-Interior
perhaps not proceed with it to-day but give a little more time and I think probably it would be the wish of the House to meet him in that regard; that is, we could take up that bill to-morrow, and perhaps now go into Supply.


Arthur Meighen: In view of the amendments suggested to-day, a day's notice is necessary.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The amendments are just an amplification of what is there.



INTERIOR DEPARTMENT

[Stage Direction]
The House in committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
Expenses connected with the Dominion Observatory at Ottawa, §50,000; Expenses connected with the Dominion Astrophysical Observatory at Victoria, B.C., $18,500.
Edward Joseph Garland: Before the item carries would the minister give some of the details in connection with the expenditures of the Victoria observatory? I do not think we have ever had any detailed list of those expenditures. How much was spent last year?


Charles A. Stewart: The vote
Was the same as for this year, $18,500.


Edward Joseph Garland: What are
the details of the expenditure?


Charles A. Stewart: The details are as follows:
Astronomer, H. H, Plaskett	 $2,640
Assistant Astronomer	 1,800
Secretary	 1,440
Instrument maker foreman	 1,860
Part-time Chauffeur	 720
House allowance-
Mr. Harper	 600
Mr. Young	 600
Mr. Plaskett	 600
Assistant astronomer	 480
Temporary assistance	 2,280
Total	 $11,340
Printing and Stationery-
Printing publications	 $1,460
Books, periodicals and	binding..	600
Stationery	 400

 2,460
Supplies and maintenance-
Instruments and apparatus.. ..	$1,200
Photographic supplies	 500
Machine and instrument work..	500
Hardware and chemicals	 400
Automobile maintenance		600
Postage, freight, telegraph.. ..	1,100
Contingencies	 400

	4,700
Grand total	 $18,500


Edward Joseph Garland: For whom is the automobile maintained, the cost of operating it, and what it costs to maintain the chauffeur? Is that all government work, and what is the expenditure for?


Charles A. Stewart: The observatory I am informed, is seven miles from the town, and an automobile has been supplied for the purposes of transportation back and forth.


Edward Joseph Garland: What is
the annual cost of the upkeep of the auto?


Charles A. Stewart: Six hundred dollars.


Edward Joseph Garland: That seems very high. What is the nature of the car? You could buy a new Ford car every year for that cost.
Mr. STEW'ART (Argenteuil):	I cannot
give my hon. friend that information.


Edward Joseph Garland: The minister should ask his department a few questions about that, because it seems to me to be quite a sum of money for the annual maintenance of an automobile. It must be a very expensive car and used quite a lot. The minister says the observatory is only seven miles from town, but if the purpose of the car is to get the astronomers out there and back again it seems to me they must be running to and fro every day to cause such an amount of wear and tear.


Charles A. Stewart: The car is
used for the benefit of the institution; it is not intended for the benefit of any particular member of the staff.


Edward Joseph Garland: I think the minister might look that matter up. What is the nature of the publications in question, and are they available to the general public?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, they
are. They are the same as are got out here and relate to various subjects of public interest, that is of interest to the scientific public. To be frank, I have never read these publications myself, therefore I cannot speak with first-hand knowledge.


Edward Joseph Garland: Then there is the item for publishing stationery and so on, amounting to $2,460. I am not sure to what extent publicity of the articles prepared is given, or how widespread the publication is, but it seems a large sum of money to spend on astronomical matters.
Supply-Interior


Charles A. Stewart: I have been somewhat amazed at the interest taken in this work. Mr. Plaskett, as hon. gentlemen know, is an authority on astronomical questions, and his publications are very widely read. I believe, too, that he has had the honour of making some interesting discoveries. I do not say that the publications which emanate from the Victoria observatory are any more important than those issued at the Central observatory heTe. At the same time I do not think that for an institution of this kind, in view of the importance of the work carried on, the sum of $1,400 is too large for the purpose of printing publications.


Edward Joseph Garland: I should
like to know a little more about it; I am not quite sure that the minister's explanation is satisfactory.


Arthur Meighen: It is the intention, I
presume, to continue the Victoria observatory work?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: The vote for the Ottawa observatory used to run to about $35,000 or $36,000 up to 1921, I think it was, when it was increased. There was some special cause for the increase, I forget just what it was. Since then it has 'been maintained at the high figure. One year it was as high as $58,000; It is now down to $50,000. Does the number of employees run about the same as during those years? "Why is it impossible to get back to the old regular figure of about $36.000?


Charles A. Stewart: I am sorry
but I have not at present before me the detailed statement of expenditure.


Arthur Meighen: How many employees
are there now?


Charles A. Stewart: I will give
the names:	Messrs. Hodgson, Henroteau,
McCIenahan, Henderson, Madill, Dier, Walker. Bird, O'Connor, Shore, Rochester, Williams, Dolan, Dickson and Hackett. There are two assistant astronomers and a messenger clerk.


Arthur Meighen: Is Mr. DeLury not there?


Charles A. Stewart: I am told
that Mr. DeLury appears in the civil government votes with Mr. Stewart.


Arthur Meighen: Who is the head of the observatory since the death of Dr. Klotz.


Charles A. Stewart: Mr. R. M.
Stewart, who was his assistant up to the time of his death.


Arthur Meighen: How many are in the
civil government vote?


Charles A. Stewart: There is a
staff of thirty-nine there and twenty-one are under the civil government vote. I will give the details of the expenditure:
Caretaker's supplies	 $ 100
Charwomen's wages	 1,570
Carpenter shop	 450
Machine shop	 500
Printing and stationery et cetera	 700
Printing publications	 2,500
Photographic supplies	 400
Groceries and provisions	 250
Laundry	  75
Furniture and fittings	 25
Express	 100
Freight	 50
Street car tickets	 100
Telegrams	 50
Miscellaneous	 100


Arthur Meighen: What are the street car
tickets for?	[DOT]


Charles A. Stewart: I understand that street car tickets have always been furnished to the staff for night work and special duty on account of their being out at the experimental farm.


Arthur Meighen: Are any new instruments being installed?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes. There is a new instrument on order from Paris-a photographic photometer.


Arthur Meighen: Have there been any discoveries of importance of late years showing the practical value of the institution? And how did the instruments and the general records give account of themselves in connection with the late earthquake in Ottawa?


Charles A. Stewart: The instruments registered in the last earthquake more quickly than at distant points. They were accurate. An interim report has already been published with regard to the recent earthquake as it affected eastern Canada, and a further more detailed report will follow.


Arthur Meighen: Is the government still
impressed with the wisdom of maintaining the second observatory? I was not responsible for its institution, but I understood there were at Victoria certain advantages, for instance climatic, and I do not know what the other advantages claimed were. By "climatic," I mean the nature of the atmosphere was such as to facilitate observations. Is the government convinced that this has been vindicated by experience, and if so, has the government considered removing all the instruments to Victoria and utilizing the one observatory alone?

Supply-Interior


Charles A. Stewart: The largetelescope that is installed at Victoria can foe used more advantageously there than here on account of atmospheric conditions. But for general observations, the smaller instruments are very valuable and useful at this point. Personally, I had never heard of any intention of establishing an observatory at one point alone in Canada. My right hon. friend is aware that in the United States observations are located at many points. True, their population is much larger than ours.


Arthur Meighen: How many have they?


Charles A. Stewart: Twenty or
thirty, I understand. The one I was thinking of from records published and the one from which I see, perhaps, the most authentic reports, is the one on the coast located in California.


Arthur Meighen: The Lick Observatory?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.
Mr. MEIGHEN. I do not think the United States have as many government observatories as that.


Charles A. Stewart: There are
two government observatories. The others are private and university observatories.


Arthur Meighen: That is what I thought. I do not like to speak against the maintenance of two observatories in 'Canada. When men of scientific training are engaged, they have a right to expect reasonable treatment at the hands of their employers, but I hardly think we should be maintaining as many observatories as the United States. I presume the cost to the country is in the neighbourhood of $150,000 a year, perhaps more than that.


Edward Joseph Garland: Is it not more than that?


Charles A. Stewart: There is the $18,000 and the $50,000, plus the salaries of the twenty-one men.


Arthur Meighen: I would not think those would run over $80,000.


Charles A. Stewart: The amount does not come to $150,000.


Arthur Meighen: I have not overestimated, have I?


Charles A. Stewart: I think the right hon. member has.


Arthur Meighen: The hon. member for Bow River thought I was away under, so on the government's reasoning I must be right.
Under their policy they find what one extreme wants and another wants, and their own intelligence leads them to go half way between. I, however, have not done that. I think I was about right in my estimate. The eminence of both gentlemen at the head of those institutions is well known. Dr. Plaskett I have known t'he best and he has certainly done excellent work. There might be economy in using the institution that is best adapted for the purpose and, as vacancies occur, concentrating appointments. I do not say that I feel very keenly on the question. I would not like to see the government go out of the enterprise altogether. We cannot afford to do that. We must hold up our end of the astronomical work of the world. But we ought to do it on as economical a basis as possible.


Charles A. Stewart: I agree fully as to the value of the institution. I frankly confess that I am not in a position to explain all the value of the scientific work done. But I have been looking into the total cost and I find it is about $130,000.


Arthur Meighen: It is about $70,000 apart from the salaries of eighteen men on the permanent staff here and, I should think, about ten on the permanent staff at Victoria.


Charles A. Stewart: There are
four on the staff at Victoria.


Arthur Meighen: All that will run a good deal over $30,000. It is absurd to think that men of the type employed here could be employed at that figure. There are in the institution here in certain lines of mathematics men who are perhaps as good as any on the continent or better.


Charles A. Stewart: Strange to say however their salaries are by no means unreasonable in comparison with those paid in other scientific work.


Arthur Meighen: I do not think the
salaries are at all high.
* Mr. GARLAND (Bow River): I feel much as the leader of the opposition does; I have no desire to curtail scientific work of this character. I suggest however that the minister might give us the details of such items as automobile maintenance and expenses, and that sort of thing. There are a number of places where he might adopt the policy of Mr. Coolidge. I was very much flattered when the leader of the opposition represented himself as being at one extreme and myself at the other; if I am at the opposite pole to my right hon. friend I am all right.
4076.
Supply-Interior


Arthur Meighen: There are a great many men in the country who feel much the same, but most of them are locked up,


Edward Joseph Garland: That has always been the attitude of the autocrat toward the democrat.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Topographical and general surveys-traverse of northern rivers and lakes-aerial surveys-classification of lands for forestry, settlement and the development of Canada-plotting and printing plans, etc., $400,000.
Charles A. Stewart: There is a reduction this year of $70,000, and the committee will remember that we made a considerable reduction in this work last year. Year by year therefore we are trying to reduce these expenditures. We have now complete arrangements with all the departments in connection with topographical survey work, so that the fear expressed by some members on former occasions as to overlapping in various departments is not justified. The work is completed before the parties start out for the field-I refer, of course, to the topographical work done by the Department of Mines and by the Department of Defence. We have a plan by which the work done by the various departments shall be co-ordinated to avoid any overlapping.


Arthur Meighen: How many are on the
Topographical Surveys now?


Charles A. Stewart: Inside and
outside there are 208.


Arthur Meighen: How many were there
last year?


Charles A. Stewart: There were seventeen more last year.


Arthur Meighen: The reduction of seventeen would not account for the reduction in this vote. What I fear is that unless the reduction in staff coincides with the reduction in the vote we shall have a lot of men idle. Are the men being fully employed who are there now? You cannot account for a reduction of $70,000 in the vote by a reduction of only seventeen in the staff; there must be a good many men idle.


Charles A. Stewart: There has
been a reduction in field expenses of $33,003, in salaries of $34,547, and in office expenses of $2,450.


Arthur Meighen: From what areas has the minister withdrawn?

. Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil): The following are the decreases:
Province-	Decrease
Manitoba	 $ 6,290
Saskatchewan	 19,250
Alberta	 20,663
Yukon	 3,000
And the work on the British Columbia-Atberta boundary having been completed, there is a further saving there of $7,000.


Mr. McTAGGART:: There is a reference
in this item to a classification of lands for forestry. I have in mind a forest reserve in southwestern Saskatchewan, the Big Stick forest reserve, in the Big Sand Hills, which was recently transferred from the Forestry branch to the Timber and Grazing branch. On whose recommendation was that done?


Charles A. Stewart: I am informed that Mr. Lonergan made the inspection and reported in favour of the transfer.


Neil Haman McTaggart: Did he give reasons?


Charles A. Stewart: We have a complete report on the matter from him.


Edward Joseph Garland: The minister informed the committee that during the last year a closer co-operation had been effected with the departments of Mines and Defence.


Charles A. Stewart: I would not say "closer," because we have been doing this for three years. I merely mentioned it in passing to remind the committee that, this criticism that there might be overlapping, we had frequently before. We always have a complete understanding of the nature of the work to be done.


Edward Joseph Garland: With reference to the prevention of duplication of work, has the minister been as successful in the Geodetic branch?


Charles A. Stewart: They are
working in conjunction with the other surveys all the time, and also with the provincial surveys, so there is no overlapping. All these services have a complete understanding before they take the field as to what areas they shall cover and the nature of the work they shall undertake.


Edward Joseph Garland: I congratulate the minister on effecting that much change during the year. He will remember that in discussing the vote for the Bureau of Statistics it was suggested that the bureau should be empowered to go in and advise on the standardization of the collection and com-

Supply-Interior
pilation of statistics in the various departments. So in this case I would suggest to the minister that a great deal more effective work would be possible, and economies could be effected, if one certain branch-the Topographical Surveys preferably, because it has the more important work to do-were made advisory to those engaged in similar work in the other departments. I would strongly recommend that to the minister. I was disappointed to find from his explanation of the reduction this year of $70,000 that it was made somewhat at the expense of the work being done. The last thing I had in mind last year in my criticism of the vote was that the service was not satisfactory or desirable,
I tried to point out that the western farmers' organizations and the Alberta government were very well pleased with the work and would like to see it completed, especially the land classification. I have seem some of the maps and they are splendid. I did hope that the reduction this year would be explained by the minister as arising out of economies effected by co-ordination, and I am not very well satisfied to find that it is due to the work being curtailed.


Charles A. Stewart: We are not reducing the parties engaged on the land classification work. It is a new venture, having been taken up only within the last two or three years. But the subdivision work in all the western provinces is very much ahead of settlement; generally speaking, to the extent of millions of acres. There is no curtailment of the classification work, but of course we have not increased it.


Edward Joseph Garland: In what
direction has the work been curtailed, then?


Charles A. Stewart: We are not doing any subdivision work this year, I am informed, so the curtailment is largely in that line. Then the Alberta boundary surveys have been completed. The levelling parties are now entirely under the control of the Geodetic branch.


Edward Joseph Garland: That is
not so bad. But I do not wish the minister to be under any misapprehension as to my attitude in this matter. I think the department is doing splendid work, but I still think that further economies could1 be effected by continued presssure on the part of the minister to secure co-ordination. If he would follow my suggestion and place the Topographical branch in charge of the other branches in an advisory capacity, I think economy could be effected and more concentrated and logically followed work would result.


Charles A. Stewart: I agree with my hon. friend. I am very much in favour of a number of the services that are scattered around in two or three departments being brought together under one head; I have always been a consistent advocate of this policy. But sometimes my motive is misconstrued and it is suspected that I am reaching out to grab somebody else's department. I say that frankly. But that is not the idea. I want to make it clear to the committee that as far as we have a complete understanding with other departments engaged in somewhat similar services there will be no further overlapping.


Arthur Meighen: Who is the head of this branch?


Charles A. Stewart: Mr. F. H.
Peters, who was formerly in the Irrigation branch.


Arthur Meighen: Who has taken the place of Dr. Deville?


Charles A. Stewart: Mr. J. D.
Graig, who was his acting assistant.


Mr. KELLNER:: I should like to ask the minister about a timber berth in Alberta which was advertised for sale last year at an upset price, I think, of $3 an acre. At the sale the berth was bid up to about $60 an acre and then withdrawn. Was the price too high, or why was the highest bid not accepted?


Charles A. Stewart: This was
the subject of a good deal of discussion during the Edmonton provincial by-election.


Donald Ferdinand Kellner: Unfortunately I did not attend the meetings, so I did not get the benefit of the discussion.


Charles A. Stewart: I am very
glad indeed to make the matter clear to the hon. gentleman. The sale was advertised in v the ordinary way. The berth is located about fifteen miles or more from the railway. During the by-election to which I have referred it was stated that changes had been made in the regulations governing the sale. No changes were made. Mr. Conroy, one of the bidders, was acting on behalf of the Hebridean Colonization Society. Indeed, I think it was at their request that the berth was put up for competition, and a survey showed that there was a considerable amount of sawn timber on the berth as well as a number of ties. These ties were expected to be the main product of the berth. Ties and telegraph poles are, I think, always subject to fixed dues of ten cents for dry and fifteen cents for green. Then, bonus bids are asked
Supply-Interior

on the berth when it is put up for public tender. Mr. Driscoll, who is a well-known timber operator in Edmonton, also began bidding, and between them the berth was bid up to $60 a thousand feet. The clerk in charge, realizing at once that something was wrong, withdrew the sale, on the ground that it would be utterly impossible to accept such a bid and that the parties bidding must have misunderstood the regulations or they would not have bid so high for the timber. The berth is still on our hands. I am informed that both the parties thought they might take the ties off without having to take off the timber, which of course was a mistaken idea. If they had examined the provisions under which the sale was put up, no such thing could have happened. Under the circumstances I think the official exercised good judgment in withdrawing the sale entirely.


Neil Haman McTaggart: I understood the
minister to say that a survey was recently made of the Big Stick Forest Reserve and that an officer of the department recommended the transfer of the reserve to the Timber and Grazing branch. Would the minister bring down the recommendation and report?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Mr. SPENCER:: Is every - opportunity
given to incoming settlers to get hold of the land classification maps and the information pertaining thereto?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Mr. McQUARRIE:: What is the difference between the Topographical survey and the Geodetic survey?


Charles A. Stewart: The Geodetic survey is for the purpose of establishing fixed points from which the Topographical survey begins its work.


William Garland McQuarrie: What benefits are
derived from these surveys, and is there to be any end to them?


Charles A. Stewart: The Geodetic survey are establishing these fixed points for all time, for all surveys and mapping.


William Garland McQuarrie: In what provinces has this topographical work been done?


Mr. McBRIDE:: I do not think this should be repeated; the information has already been given as to the different provinces. Why should we have to sit here and listen to this all over again for the benefit of an hon. member who was not in?
[Mr. G. A. Stewart.1


Charles A. Stewart: I can give
my hon. friend the figures for each province in respect to land survey, topographical survey, classification of lands, control and exploratory surveys, governing surveys, supervision, inspection, and surveys unprovided for. They are as follows:
Maritime provinces	 $27,700
Quebec	 10,000
Ontario	 8.260
Manitoba	 18,160
Saskatchewan	 21.250
Alberta	 23.387
British Columbia	 15.500
Northwest Territories	 15,240
Total	 $139,947
There are nineteen parties engaged in the work.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Investigations, reconnaissance, triangulation, precise levelling, geodetic astronomy, etc., $270,500.
William Garland McQuarrie: Can the minister give
the details?


Charles A. Stewart: The Triangulation division will spend $72,000 during the fiscal year on the selection and preparation of stations, tower building, angular measurements and precise traverse. The operations are located as follows:
(a)	British Columbia	 $12,500
The parties which have been working for several years along the British Columbia coast net have completed this net and in 1925 will continue eastward from Prince Rupert along the Canadian National. Triangulation will alternate with precise traverse in this area.
The Surveyor General of British Columbia urgently requires triangulation
[DOT] in a number of areas. He has indicated the above area as one of the most urgently required, and, as his needs fit in with the programme of the development of the Canadian triangulation, it has been selected for this year's operations.
(b) Prairie provinces	 $15,100
During the present season it is expected that most of the triangulation along the 49th parallel being prosecuted in conjunction with the United States Coast and Geodetic survey will be completed. This work will be the base of all future triangulation operations which may be required in tho prairie provinces.
(c) Upper Ottawa river	 $12,500
Operations in this area will be a continuation of those of 1924 and will begin above Pembroke. It is anticipated that operations will reach lake Timiskaming by the fall of 1925.
Both the Ontario and Quebec governments are particularly interested in this net, and the former is spending quite a sum of money to connect the land surveys to all of the stations of the geodetic trian julation.

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(d)	Northern Queued	 $10,100
These parties are working south along the Quebec and Lake St. John railway and will complete their work to the St.
Lawrence river in 1925, thus completing a loop to and up the Saguenay river to lake St. John and south to Three Rivers, which is of great importance in the geographical work of northern Quebec.
A start will also be made on a triangulation net westward along the Transcontinental railway
(e) Gulf of St Lawrence	 $3,800
Only reconnaissance for the laying out of future work will be carried on in this area, and by the fall of 1925 it is anticipated that the selection of stations will be completed as far east as the straits of Belle Isle. This net is of great importance both to the province of Quebec and as a base for hydrographic surveys.
(f) Maritime provinces	 $18,700
Triangulation of the bay of Chaleur will be completed this year, as well as most of the triangulation along the east coast of New Brunswick. These nets will serve as a base for hydrographic surveys, and also have been in great demand by the province of New Brunswick as a base for geographic work in that province.
2.	Mount Logan climb	 $2,300
The department is paying the expenses of one of its own officers-on the attempt to climb mount Logan, which is being sponsored by the Alpine Club of Canada.
This officer is one of the most experienced mountain climbers in the government service.
3.	Base lines	 $4,500
Three base lines are being measured to check the distances calculated from the triangulation at three points in eastern Canada. One will be measured near-Three Rivers, Quebec, a second near Pembroke and a third near lake Timis-kaming in Quebec.
4. Geodetic astronomy	 $3,500
Eight triangulation stations will be occupied as laplace stations during the coming season. Five of these will be along the 49th parallel triangulation and three in eastern Ontario and Quebec_	These
stations are inserted at intervals along the triangulation nets to add to their accuracy
5. Precise levelling	 $27,800
Five main parties are being placed in the field in 1925, two in Alberta, one in southern British Columbia, one in southern Ontario and a fifth in the province of Quebec. One part of the work in the latter area is to check a line of levels [DOT] already rim along the south shore of the St. Lawrence river to aid in determining the extent of the earthquake movements in the lower St. Lawrence of last spring.
6.	City surveying	 $9,000
This is simply carrying out the programme followed in the last three years in making an experimental area of the city of London to determine the best methods of city survey work for the benefit of other Canadian cities.
7.	Instruments, Books, etc	 $4,000
This sum is provided for the purchase of new equipment which, owing to many improvements in instruments for geodetic work, will enable our Canadian Geodetic survey to carry on more efficiently.
8.	General Expenses	 $18,190
This sum is provided to take care of all such items of general expense as expenses at head office, freight, telephone, charwomen, and all such expenses as are not chargeable to principal divisions of the work.
9.	Salaries	 $128,510
Total	 $270,500


William Garland McQuarrie: What is this geodetic
astronomy?


Charles A. Stewart: The purpose of the astronomical observations is to fix definite points of longitude and for straightening out the triangulation.


Edward Joseph Garland: I see that item No. 234 covers topographical and general surveys for forestry, settlement and so on. I turn over to page 54, and under item No. 279, under Dominion lands and parks, there is the enormous sum of $1,185,000 for the protection of timber, also for the surveys of forest resources, and research in forestry. There is an increase in that item of $35,000. Can the minister, although we are not on that item, but in order to help us with the one we are discussing, tell us how much of that $1,185,000 is devoted to forest surveys?


Charles A. Stewart: None of it. It is all for protective purposes. That is in the Forestry department itself. The surveys are done by the Topographical Surveys branch, but the preservation of the forests is in the hands of the forestry officials.


Edward Joseph Garland: The increase in vote No. 279 would have no bearing on the decrease in the other vote?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To compensate the Timiskaming and Northern Ontario Railway Commission in connection with their claim for injury to John Hedin, $240.
William Garland McQuarrie: How does this come under item No. 235?


Charles A. Stewart: John Hedin was a section man in the employ of the Timiskaming and Northern Ontario Railway and was injured on October 17, 1921, in a collision between our precise levelling party's motor car and a section motor car on which Hedin was riding. It has not been brought out that the accident was either party's fault; it was apparently an unavoidable occurrence.

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The railway referred the case to the Workmen's Compensation Board of Ontario in the regular manner and they awarded Hedin the sum of $994.40 for medical and hospital services and loss of time, together with a pension of $20 per month for life for permanent partial disability.
The Department of Justice ruled on July 6, 1923, that our department was not liable under the terms of the agreement with the Timiskaming and Northern Ontario Railway covering the operation of motor cars for precise levelling purposes.
Mr. Lee, the chairman of the Timiskaming and Northern Ontario Railway Commission, urged, however, that this department should reimburse the commission for the full amount of the award on the grounds of moral responsibility, since the accident would not have happened but for the presence of our party on the line. He also intimated that no further geodetic operations along the railway would be permitted until an adjustment of the matter, satisfactory to them, had been made. In view of the moral responsibility which undoubtedly exists and of the hindrance which would be caused to geodetic operations by the railway's refusal to allow same on their property, it has been considered proper that payment of the claim be arranged on other than legal grounds.
Legally, of course, we could refuse the claim, but the motor cars of our survey party were using these tracks on sufferance, and the committee will readily understand that means saving us a very considerable amount of expense. Under the circumstances, therefore, although we were not legally responsible, we thought it better to pay this claim.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Expenses connected with the survey and demarcation of international boundaries, $20,000.
Charles A. Stewart: This is in
accordance with our agreement with the United States for the care of the international boundary. We have just succeeded in having a treaty signed with the American government covering this whole boundary matter, and it is estimated that it will cost each government $20,000 a year to maintain the monuments and keep the line cleared out. I might add that the position of Mr. McArthur, who has had charge of this work and who recently died, will not be maintained as a separate position. His duties will be performed by Mr. J. D. Craig, Director General of Surveys, who has been appointed International Boundary Commissioner also.


William Garland McQuarrie: Will he get an extra
allowance?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


William Garland McQuarrie: This is a permanent
charge, I understand.


Charles A. Stewart: Yes. It
may develop that we shall not require this much, but I have very grave doubt whether we shall not require it. I was asked for more money by the officers in charge, but we want to see what the actual cost will be. We have estimated that $40,000 altogether would take care of this work.


William Garland McQuarrie: How is that estimate
made up?


Charles A. Stewart: From the
experience of previous years. It is a little difficult to estimate the exact amount required. The monuments are constantly getting out of order.


William Garland McQuarrie: Was $26,000 spent last year?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


William Garland McQuarrie: Has the minister any details of this item?


Charles A. Stewart: We have
the details, but it would be rather difficult to estimate on details from past experience because they were finishing up the work and preparing maps, all of which work I understand is pretty well completed. I think they can get along with this amount this year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Government of the Northwest Territories:
Salaries and expenses in connection with the administration of the territories, including the erection of buildings and investigation work, etc. $114,000 Administration, Northwest Game Act,
etc	 36,000
Exploration, salaries and contingencies, alterations and repairs to ships.. ..	73.000
Total	 $223,000
Edward Joseph Garland: How many employees are there under this grant?


Charles A. Stewart: I am informed there are about thirty. There are- six petroleum and mining engineers, located at Calgary, who are also in the service. They go into the Northwest to conduct explorations and make reports the same as the engineers do in Alberta, but they are attached to the service Then there are three officials at Fort Smith, and we have eight men who are on the buffalo reserve looking after the protection of the buffalo.

Supply-Interior
40S1


Edward Joseph Garland: That makes a total of 47 employees under this vote.


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Edward Joseph Garland: Could the
minister give the committee at this moment any idea of the total number of employees in his department as a whole, and state whether any increases or reductions were made last year?


Charles A. Stewart: There is a
reduction over last year. My hon. friend is speaking of the total service?


Edward Joseph Garland: Yes, the
approximate number will do.


Charles A. Stewart: (Argenteuil):	There
were 2,104, last year, and we have 2,059 this year, a decrease of forty-five. The saving amounts to $74,661.


Edward Joseph Garland: Surely that is not the total number of employees in the Department of the Interior.


Charles A. Stewart: I am told
that is the total number in the Department of the Interior.


Edward Joseph Garland: That is in the inside branch?


Charles A. Stewart: And the
outside as well, the whole service.


Edward Joseph Garland: The reduction in numbers is only about forty-five?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Edward Joseph Garland: There is
no department, I think, in the service of which I have heard more criticism as to overmanning than the Department of the Interior. What justification there is for that criticism' I, personally, do not know, nor do I imagine the minister would have had time to find out. It would require almost a special investigation to determine. I have in my hand at this moment the evidence that was collected by Dr. Roche, chairman of the Civil Service Commission, and presented to the Spinney parliamentary committee. It may not be inopportune to recall that evidence to the attention of the minister. My desire is to give him all the assistance I can in doing what I feel sure he wants to do, that is. cut down the staff and bring economies into effect; I think the minister is just as much in favour of that as I am. Dr. Roche stated that the result of the reorganization of the Printing Bureau by the Civil Service Commission, as set out in the report for 1921, at pages 6, 7 and 8, was to reduce the staff from 1,159 in 1919
to 732, a reduction of 428 or thirty-seven per cent, the saving in the annual pay-roll being $746,000. He pointed out further that by these eliminations, and the introduction of modern machinery, the production of work in some branches of the bureau was actually increased, in spite of the reduction in the salary list by as high as 110 per cent. I have here the answers given to questions put to Dr. Roche by Mr. Euler, the member for North Waterloo. At the same investigation Dr. Roche stated that a like reorganization in the Interior department would produce a similar saving. That is the point I wish to call to the attention of the minister-a similar saving can be effected in the Interior department. And by the way, Dr. Roche was himself at the head of that department for some time so that he would be in a position to know the facts. I should like also to call the minister's attention to sessional papers 112 and 112 (a) for the year 1923. These were returns brought down in. reply to questions asked by Senator Bradbury, .of the upper house. They give the total salaries, wages, and bonuses of permanent and temporary employees of the Interior department under the Civil Service Act as $3,706,009.68. Now, to take Dr. Roche's statements at their face value we would have this situation arise as a result of reorganization: thirty-seven per cent of that amount would represent a saving of $1,371,223.33, so that if Dr. Roche's estimate is correct that is the sum that would be saved to the public treasury. Moreover the above-mentioned return does not include the number of positions which were exempted from the Civil Service Act. If they were included in the reorganization there would be a further increase in the total saving. The Department of the Interior has some seven branches.


Charles A. Stewart: Seven?


Edward Joseph Garland: Some seven distinct and large branches, which deal with Dominion lands-


Charles A. Stewart: Oh yes, all
right.


Edward Joseph Garland: These
branches are declared to have overflowed the capacity of the public buildings that contain them, and I want to ask the minister in closing, just how many buildings are now housing the Lands branch of the Department of the Interior, that is taking into account the classification work and so on?
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Charles A. Stewart: We have succeeded in getting the Lands branch all housed in the Norlite building which is just across the street from the West block. When I came to Ottawa they were scattered in four or five buildings.


Edward Joseph Garland: Sixteen.


Charles A. Stewart: My hon. friend mentions the classification. The classification is done by the Topographical surveys, but the Lands branch is now all housed in the Norlite building. That explains how we are able by the amalgamation of the wiork to reduce staff. 1 do not know anything about the Spinney report, but since coming to Ottawa I think I am safe in making the assertion that the Interior department has been reduced by twenty-five per cent. That has not been done in one or two years; it is a gradual decrease spread over several years. My hon. friend has spoken about the scattering of the staff around in offices in this city. This makes the work of the department very difficult and expensive, as anyone who has to do with the staff will understand. Files have to be carried from one building to another and, of course, delays occur. I would be delighted if Dr. Roche and the Civil Service Commission would finish their survey of the Interior department. They have a free hand to make any recommendations as regards reductions and savings, and I will guarantee that I will carry them out. That has been a standing offer ever since I came to Ottawa. I do not think any minister in a short period of three or four years, with all the ramifications of a department and with all the other duties to which a minister is called upon to devote has attention, ican become sufficiently acquainted with a large staff, to form an estimate whether his department is overmanned or undermanned. I shall be glad to see the minister who is able to do that. A minister is asked to carry out innumerable duties. He has the duties of his office to perform. -It seems to me the ideal position is that he should be relieved altogether of staff affairs, and that they should be looked after from another source. I would like the Board of Audit or the Civil Service Commission to look after these matters. As a matter of fact, the Civil Service Commission have a representative in the Interior department continually. It is his business to look after staffs, to examine into recommendations that are made for promotions, requests for help on account of increased service and so on, so that while the minister cannot escape the responsibility of signing recommendations and requests of one sort or another, perhaps 
for an increase of pay, nevertheless, a very close scrutiny is kept upon the department by the Civil Service Commission and I will welcome any suggestion on their part that will tend to reduce the expenditure or the personnel.


Edward Joseph Garland: The minister is to be congratulated on his frank statement. At the outset, I intended to make it quite clear that I placed no blame upon himself personally. I agree with him that the difficulties he has to face are too numerous for him to spend time running around the department in order to find where he can dispose of a man here and another one there so as to cut down expenditure. I notice the total salaries and bonus for the staff are given as $3,706,009. Could the minister give the total salaries anid bonus for the current year?


Charles A. Stewart: Our estimate for this year is $3,548,241.25.


Edward Joseph Garland: Although
the minister may have effected a reduction of 25 per cent in 'the number of employees- and possibly he is correct in his estimate, although I have not had time to check it up- there has not been the same ratio of reduction in the cost. There has been a reduction of about $160,000, or not quite that.
Mr. McTAGGART. On that point: I do not know whether the civil service in the Interior department is overmanned or undermanned, but I want to put in a word for the officials in that department at this time. I do not think anyone in this House or out of it has a right to criticize the staff of the Department of the Interior until he is familiar with the enormous quantity of work it has to do. There is the other side of this story. The Department of the Interior are acting as administrators for thousands and thousands of acres of land in western Canada, and a tremendous quantity of correspondence |is coming to the department in relation to those lands. In my experience, in the main, there has been a slowness in answering the correspondence. That may be because of the fact that the department is undermanned. I believe that the department is doing everything possible to facilitate the work of administering Dominion lands, and I should be very loath to see the staff of that department undermanned because I feel it might reflect in thi3 way, that the administration and correspondence in connection with Dominion lands in western Canada might be further hindered.

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Mr. BLACK (Yukon):: Is something new
contemplated this year in the way of arctic exploration and the establishment of gov-vernment up there?


Charles A. Stewart: There is no notion of establishing government. The government is carried on here. I rather appreciate what the hon. member (Mr. Mc-Taggart) has said with respect to the work of the Interior department, because perhaps no members realize the quantity of work that is being carried on in the department better than those from the prairie provinces.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Except those from the
Arctic circle.


Charles A. Stewart: I will come to that later. The work of the department is also appreciated by a large proportion of the province from which my hon. friend comes. The ramifications of the department are almost empire-wide, and a great deal of trouble is caused if we make a mistake in a lease or if we trip up in the slightest with respect to a payment. At the present time I am endeavouring to straighten out difficulties that occurred in connection with the distribution of seed grain in J876. I want the committee to have an appreciation of the responsibilities of the officials of this department. We perform every function of a government, and I think hon. gentlemen who come from Alberta will agree with me that the Department of the Interior is performing almost as much service in the leasing of coal mines, grazing leases, timber leases and their operation in Alberta as is the provincial government in their work, and to a very fair degree we have almost comparable responsibility.


Edward Joseph Garland: The minister, as no doubt he remembers very clearly, was at one time premier of that province. If all he says is true as to the tremendous scope of the work of the department, would he think the restoration of the natural resources of Alberta would be of great value to that province?


Charles A. Stewart: I should not like to express any opinion about it. I do not believe that the province would either lose or gain very much by the acquisition of its resources but I do think that Alberta and other western provinces have a right to be put on an equality with the rest of the Dominion. That is my contention; but from the monetary point of view I do not think they stand to gain very much. It is doubtful. While the department is being criticized on the score of its size we must remember that
when we get beyond the belt in British Columbia and enter the Yukon territory, which my hon. friend (Mr. Black) has. the honour to represent, we have a tremendous area inhabited1 by very few people; and the hon. member himself will agree with me that our administration costs when we get up there are pretty high. We hope that we shall be able to reduce them. And in the northwest we have a whole empire about which most of us know very little. There are great possibilities of mineral wealth there, and it seems to me that we must take no chances on anybody else going into that territory and laying claim to any land that belongs to us. I am taking every precaution possible to prevent anything of that kind occurring. I am criticized in some quarters for the precision of statements I have made in the House, but these statements have been made after due consideration. If expeditions" from foreign countries desire to go into that north country I think the least they can do is to obtain a permit from the government of the Northwest Territories to enter what is clearly our land.
An hon. member has said that we are extending the service somewhat in the Northwest Territories, and into the Arctic particularly. We have had disquieting rumours with reference to the Eskimo situation. But Dr. Rasmussen was here a short time ago and I must say he brought us rather reassuring news. The territory is so remote that we know very little about it; we know only the fringe of it and very little about that, and when you get into the confines of Coronation gulf and to the immediate north you are in almost unknown quarters. I propose to send one of our officials across that territory this year, and it is our intention to have Mr. Mackenzie make a rather close study of the situation. The Eskimos have not received very much attention at the hands of this government, but we are becoming more alive to our responsibilities in that regard. One of the first things to be done is to get more men with at least some medical training who will act as missionaries among the Eskimos in the north country with a view to preventing some of the disasters which occasionally are reported to us from these remote districts. The country is valuable for its fur and we have no idea as to its possibilities in the way oi mineral development. And even in the lar north we have valuable animals such as the musk ox. I have here a map which gives a comprehensive idea of the territory to which we lay claim in the north country, showing the land that has already been explored. It
40S4
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would be worth hon. members' while at six o'clock to examine this map to learn something of the immensity of that territory and the heritage which this country has up there. I intend to ask parliament to give us a little more money to get further information about the territory and to protect ourselves with respect to future explorations.


Mr. ROSS (Kingston):: What missionaries
have been at work up there?


Charles A. Stewart: The Church of England has established a mission at Herschel island, and the Rev. Mr. Walton is also located on the Hudson bay. That however is rather south of the territory I have in mind.


Arthur Edward Ross: Herschel island was the place to which you sent a judge with the gallows in readiness to hang the accused?


Charles A. Stewart: My hon.
friend will understand that it is difficult to obtain timber in the north country. While it may seem somewhat cruel1 to anticipate the outcome of a trial the hon. member will nevertheless appreciate the necessity for preparation when going into a country of that nature. The place is devoid of fuel.


William Garland McQuarrie: How far north does
the jurisdiction of Canada extend? Do we take in the North Pole?


Charles A. Stewart: We claim
that we go to it.


William Garland McQuarrie: The minister has heard that the United States has laid claim to the North Pole.


Charles A. Stewart: Canada
claims the territory outlined between the degrees of longitude 60 and 141 but I have nothing to say regarding any claim the United States may make. They have Alaska and naturally they will lay claim to land north of their territory there, which would be adjacent to ours.


William Garland McQuarrie: Will they have the
North Pole?


Charles A. Stewart: I do not
suppose any nation can lay claim to the North Pole.


William Garland McQuarrie: I am serious in the
question.


Charles A. Stewart: In order to protect Canada's interests we have made our position clear. According to international law we can claim any territory lying one hundred
rMr. C. A. Stewart.]
miles off our explored coasts. But no one knows definitely what land there is in the unexplored region; to reach it the explorer must go either from the coast of Alaska or through Canadian territory.


Arthur Edward Ross: The last North
Pole expedition did not go through Canada.


Charles A. Stewart: As I have
said before we do not claim the North Pole.


Edward Joseph Garland: The minister said he would be glad if the Civil Service Commission would undertake an independent investigation of his department to find out what over-manning if any there is there. Has the commission that power?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Edward Joseph Garland: When did
it get that power?


Charles A. Stewart: This is not
the time to raise objections to what is going on, but frankly I think a great deal of time would be saved if we reverted to the old system of annual salary increases and promotions. As it is now, thire is a continual agitation going on for promotion or increase of salaryj and at least a couple of times a week I find half a dozen aplications on my desk. I think I could indicate a thousand places where money could be saved, and surely we will get to that stage sometime. It does seem to me that we have a terribly cumbrous system.


Edward Joseph Garland: 
Mr STEWART (Argenteuil):: I can scarcely believe that there were 400 superfluous employees in that institution. Amalgamations may have taken place, but I think my hon. friend will agree with me that, taking the bald facts as stated by him, there must be something omitted.


Edward Joseph Garland: That may
be, but this is the sworn evidence given by Dr. Roche.


Charles A. Stewart: I will be very glad to have Dr. Roche, the Board of Audit or any other organization come into my department and examine minutely every sub department in it. If they can show any savings, I shall be perfectly willing to put them into effect.


Edward Joseph Garland: I am delighted to get that statement from the minister, and I hope the Civil Service Commission will take the fullest advantage of it. In making these remarks I wish it to be clearly understood that I am not criticizing the minister. I realize the difficulties he has to contend with, and that he has plenty of work to attend to without looking into these details; nor do I think his deputy is to be entirely blamed, because he must have many and onerous duties to discharge; but somebody must be responsible. In the absence of definite responsibility being brought home to any official, I do believe the minister will recognize that some sort of invitation might be extended to the Civil Service Commission to make an investigation ; indeed, I hope his statement will be so regarded by the commission.


George Black: Who is the Mr. Mackenzie who has been engaged to make a special study of Arctic conditions?


Charles A. Stewart: He was your gold commissioner in the Yukon.


George Black: Who is now the
gold commissioner there?


Charles A. Stewart: Mr. Percy
Reid is acting; no permanent appointment has been made.


George Black: What is Mr. Mackenzie's official position?


Charles A. Stewart: Chief of the Arctic expedition into northern waters.


George Black: What annual
salary is he being paid?


Charles A. Stewart: A salary of


George Black: Is he getting any
perquisites?


Charles A. Stewart: He gets the salary he draws in the Yukon, and the same living allowance-$3,000-inasmuch as he is away from headquarters, just as he was while in the Yukon.


George Black: That is, he is being paid annually $8,000?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


George Black: What salary is the acting gold commissioner of Yu^on being paid?


Charles A. Stewart: He is drawing the same salary that he had as commissioner of immigration, $4,500.


George Black: There is a saving
then in the salary of the gold commissioner in the difference between $8,000 and $4,500?


Charles A. Stewart: I should
not like to say that. Should Mr. Reid be successful in being appointed1-we have asked for his permanent appointment-I imagine he would get the salary fixed for that position.


George Black: Do I understand
the minister to say that Mr. Reid is there now at $4,500?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, his
salary has not changed because he has not received his appointment permanently.


George Black: Is he being paid a living allowance?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


George Black: Amounting to how
much?	*


Charles A. Stewart: He gets the living allowance attached to that position while he is there, $3,000.
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George Black: What qualifications has Mr. Mackenzie, formerly gold commissioner of Yukon, for the position of chief of the Arctic expedition? Is he an explorer, a naturalist, a geologist, a surveyor or a navigator? Has he had any experience in Arctic work?


Charles A. Stewart: Of course,
we have no men who are thoroughly experienced in Arctic work, but Mr. Mackenzie has had very large experience of northern conditions, and no one knows that better, perhaps, than my hon. friend. Of course, it was administrative work as gold commissioner in the Yukon. We look upon him as a man of pretty sound judgment. What we need is an authentic report of the conditions under which the Eskimos are living in order that we may apply the best remedy to the startling troubles that we hear about now and then as happening among the Eskimos. I concluded that Mr. Mackenzie was probably one of our best equipped officials to bring back a report that would be of value for this purpose.


George Black: Have the Arctic
expeditions in the past brought back any information?	.


Charles A. Stewart: The Arctic expedition goes up the east coast as far as Ellesmere island. Last year they left Mr. Soper, a young man who was temporarily in the employ of the department to winter at Baffin's. Mr. Burwash has been up in that territory. W'e are trying to get an intimate knowledge of the situation in the north, particularly where the whalers winter. Captain Bernier is an experienced northern navigator, but he is a sailor. Mr. Craig, who went up for two years, is one of the officials of the department with no northern experience at all. Mr. Henderson went up there last year. But we think it important to put a man in charge in order that we may not hear of whole tribes being wiped out by epidemics. It seems that we should exercise the same humane supervision over the Eskimo that we have been exercising over the Indian.


Milton Neil Campbell: Will any medical men
accompany this expedition?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, Dr.
Livingston will go with the ship, but we will have a resident medical man at Cumberland gulf.


Mr. WARD:: Is it the policy of the government to continue the legal, social and moral supervision over the Eskimos that has 
been carried on in the past? Is it considered vrise to interfere wdth their traditional customs and habits, or is this not a lot of money spent to very little advantage?


Charles A. Stewart: It is quite
likely that if it were possible to allow the natives to live in their own traditional way they would be just about as well off, although possibly the missionaries would not agree with that view; they would hold that the Eskimos ought to be given religious teaching. But you cannot keep out the white man; he will come in contact with these people, and we must take precautions to avoid such harrowing occurrences as have taken place among them from time to time in the past.


William John Ward: Is it the experience of the
government that it is of any particular avail to attempt to exercise legal jurisdiction over these people?


Charles A. Stewart: It is a
little difficult to answer that. The reports of the missionaries are that it is, and that is the report also of the mounted police-that the natives do realize that they must no longer kill when they take a notion to do so, and that there is a chance of punishment following if they do. Of course that is not generally known among them. My hon. friend might be surprised to know that traders going into the Aklavik region find the Eskimo with high powered motors, the girls able to dance the modern dances, gramophones being used by the people, and so on. Perhaps they are too highly civilized. A missionary was telling me that he had thrown away an ordinary alarm clock because he could not make it go, and upon returning to his camp after an absence of three or four weeks he. was surprised to find it hanging in an Eskimo's camp, running and keeping good time. Moreover, he says that he prefers to get an Eskimo when it comes to employing a man to take charge of a motor boat.


William John Ward: What is the cost of carrying on this work among the Eskimos?


Charles A. Stewart: It would
be difficult to say exactly, but it would not be very much. It will cost us more in the future. While the officials can only go in there during the daylight season, they do other work as well while they are there.


William John Ward: I have heard severe criticism with regard to the execution of a couple of Eskimos about a year ago, on the ground that it was questionable, whether the results were such as to justify the large cost.

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Charles A. Stewart: The cost
would be met by the Justice department.


George Black: Am I correct in
drawing the inference from what the minister has said that the creation of this office of chief of Arctic expeditions involves an additional annual expenditure of $8,000 for the chief's salary?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, it will if we continue it.


George Black: I understood the
minister to say that he has no one in the service but Mr. Mackenzie who is qualified for this work. '


Charles A. Stewart: I would not like that to be said. It is quite possible that we have others who could do this work, but I think Mr. Mackenzie can do it very well.


George Black: Does the minister
say that Mr. Craig has had no northern experience? Was he not engaged on the boundary survey work and did he not visit these northern regions very frequently, spending summer after summer there?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, but
he is now Director General of Surveys, having succeeded Dr. Deville.


Neil Haman McTaggart: Are the departmental
officials in the north country taking steps to assist in the securing of information with regard to the Amunsden polar fliers?


Charles A. Stewart: The farthest north post we have is on the southern end of Ellesmere island, which is a very considerable distance from the scene of Amunsden's operations. If relief is sent to Amunsden by Canada it would have to go from here.


George Black: Is it a fact, then,
that the chief of this expediton goes north as a novice in this sort of work?


Charles A. Stewart: My hon.
friend knows Mr. Mackenzie's northern experience probably better than I do. I have looked upon him as a valuable officer and a good adminstrator. I do not want to enter in the distressing details of the reports we have heard with regard to the conditions up there. The stories may not be true, but if they are not it is just as well that we should know it. We should be recreant in our duty if we did not get definite information as to what is happening among these people. It is our territory; it is our country, and we
have not been paying very much attention to the Eskimo. With reference to Mr. Mackenzie, I can only say that I think he is admirably fitted for this work. My hon. friend may think I have erred in judgment, because I know he knows him much better than I do.


George Black: I want the minister to understand that I do not wish to be personal in the matter at all. It may be because I do know something about it that the present course of the government causes some surprise on my part. I am sure the minister could go to his department and find dozens of men with the experience and training and qualifications necessary for this northern work. Take, for instance, Mr. J. D. Craig, whom the minister referred to, to begin with; Doctor R. M. Anderson, chief of the biological division; Mr. D. Jenness, a man who has made practically a life study of the Eskimo, and who has written a book in the Eskimo language; Frank D. Henderson, who was in charge of the expedition last year; take the director, Mr. Finnie himself, a man with northern experience, and a great deal of experience as an administrator; take the Deputy Minister of the Interior, who has also had northern experience; take the chief of the Indian department; Mr. Maxwell Graham, chief of the wild life division, or Mr. H. Lloyd of the same division. I am sure the minister could get a committee composed of such men as those that would give him expert advice on what conditions are in that Arctic country, and what should be done. He is going to an expense that is unnecessary in connection with this expedition.


William Garland McQuarrie: Following up the questions asked by the hon. member for Bow River, I would ask the minister if he has invited the Auditor General and the Audit Board to reorganize his department.


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


William Garland McQuarrie: Has that invitation
been accepted?


Charles A. Stewart: It has not
been acted upon.


William Garland McQuarrie: They have not started the work yet?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


William Garland McQuarrie: Is it contemplated that they will shortly do that work?


Charles A. Stewart: So I am
informed, but all I can say is that they have not yet started. I think I made the first application.
Supply-Interior


George Black: Would the minister give us the real reason why this shuffle of offices was made, why Mr. Mackenzie was brought out of the Yukon and why Mr. Reid was taken out of the Immigration department and put into the Yukon?


Charles A. Stewart: I have been trying for the last hour to give my hon. friend a reason. I have given him all the reasons I have.


George Black: Was there any complaint against Mr. Mackenzie's administration as gold commissioner or any complaint against Mr. Reid's administration of his office in the Immigration department?


Charles A. Stewart: I get complaints of nearly every officer, but I would not say they were of a serious character. I could not say I did not receive some complaints, but I did not receive any of a character that I considered serious.


George Black: Was Mr. Reid not a useful officer in the Immigration department? Was he not needed where he was being employed? Was he a spare man?


Charles A. Stewart: No. Mr. Reid was recently moved to the British Columbia coast as an officer in the Immigration department there. He has had a long Yukon experience, and I asked the Immigration department for the transfer of Mr. Reid temporarily for this purpose, believing that he knew the territory. I may also say that I had discussions privately with my hon. friend. I have asked Mr. Reid to prepare a report on the Yukon, and some means of cutting down the expenses that are involved in its administration. I have been cutting down that expenditure to some extent, as my hon. friend knows, but I think it could stand a much further cut. I chose Mr. Reid, and he has been loaned to us for that purpose. As I said before, he is not permanently transferred, but he has had a very long experience, as my hon. friend knows, in the Yukon country.


George Black: Not a particularly
long experience, and his experience was in the very early days when conditions were very much different from what they are now. He has not had the experience of modern conditions at any rate that Mr. Mackenzie has had. I would say that Mr. Mackenzie was quite well qualified to make such a report, and if he is not qualified for that, he certainly would not be qualified to report on Arctic conditions.
I quite agree with what the minister has said, that great economy has been brought about in the cost o'f administration of the

Yukon, in all departments of that territory, particularly .in the Department of Justice. I think the Department of the Interior is down as fine as it can be under present conditions. But in connection with the position of gold commissioner, the action of the government has been anything but economical, and as the offices we are discussing now are apparently interchangeable I might be allowed to refer to them both together.
I asked some questions earlier in t'he session as to the present salary of the gold commissioner, and how many people were being paid and acting as gold commissioner. The, minister replied:
The duties of commissioner of the.Yukon have been added to the gold commissioner, who is paid an annual salary of $5 000, with annual living allowance of S3.000 Before consolidation former commissioner had salary of $6,000, living allowance $6,000, and free house Gold commissioner had salary of $5,000, living allowance $1,500.
A person reading that question and answer would .infer that some saving had been made in the present rearrangement -of offices, when quite the contrary is the fact. The combining of the duties of the commissioner with those of the gold commissioner was done years ago, away back in 1916, before this government came into office, and by that action of the government of that day a large amount of money was saved. But for some unaccountable reason this government, as late .as 1923, notwithstanding that they had declared in favour of a policy of reduction and were apparently attempting to save money in the Yukon, without any reason at all increased the gold commissioner's pay 'by $1,500 a year. He was then being paid $6,500 a year, and for some unaccountable reason this government increased that bo $8,000. What was even much more astonishing, they dated that increase hack to April, 1919, and paid him the lump sum of $5,750, without any cause whatever, at a time when they were supposed to be carrying on a programme oif economy. So that, far from there being anything economical in this rearrangement, as the minister would have it appear from his answer to my question, it was a gross extravagance, and the government cannot say that this was done without, warning, because I happened to be in the Yukon last fall when the information came in that the gold commissioner was to be removed and another sent in his place. I took the precaution on the 4th of October last of sending this telegram:
Dawson, Y.T., 4th October, 1924. Premier W. L. Mackenzie King, #
Ottawa, Ont.
Referring to Gold Commissioner MacKenzie's order from Minister Interior to go Ottawa now, whether Mackenzie's absence from Yukon be temporary or

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permanent, government has officials here competent and suitable to administer offices of Commissioner and gold commissioner as now combined together with their present duties. Unnecessary to add to Yukon staff. To do so under present conditions will be flagrant waste public money.
That, perhaps, was rather an extraordinary position for a member to take, as to patronage in his own constituency, but as the minister has observed already I have had a long experience in the territory and am willing at any time to co-operate with the government in the interests of good government and economy.
I received a reply to that telegram from the Prime Minister to the following terms:
Winnipeg, Man., Oct. 5, 1924 Your telegram has been repeated to me from Ottawa Hon. Charles Stewart who is with me in Winnipeg tells me that Gold Commissioner Mackenzie has been called to Ottawa to discuss Yukon affairs and in his absence competent official will be placed in charge in Yukon. Such reductions in staff as appear necessary will of course be carried out.
W. L. Mackenzie King.
I made it plain to the government that they had officials enough in Yukon and did not need to send anyone else. There was absolutely no necessity to send in Mr. Reid to take Mr. Mackenzie's place, nor do I think there was any necessity for bringing Mr. Mackenzie out. However, the government in its wisdom did that. Now, for some reason the government has been calling the gold commissioner from Yukon to Ottawa pretty frequently within recent years. As the premier's telegram to me of October 5 says "the gold commissioner has been called to Ottawa to discuss Yukon affairs." Well, you cannot go down from Yukon to Ottawa and back again -for nothing; and for the life of me I cannot see that there was any necessity to bring the gold commissioner out at that time to discuss Yukon affairs. The government has in its employ a number of officials who have had Yukon experience, and quite a number who within very recent years have visited Yukon. I am sure if the minister wanted any expert and up-to-date advice on Yukon matters he could have got it from the Director of the Northwest Territories and Yukon who visited Yukon within the past few years. Moreover the government has had a special auditor up there within recent months. As I say, there are numfoens Of men here in the employ of the government who are competent to give advice on Yukon matters. In addition to that I venture to suggest that the minister might have got some advice from the member of parliament for that district, and I think he could have relied on it. I do not think the minister can recall any occasion
on which I have given him advice that was not in the best interests of Yukon administration.	_
Now, I have made an examination of just what this method of bringing the gold commissioner from Yukon to Ottawa on several occasions in the past, and this shuffle in offices, has cost the government, and how much the government has unnecessarily paid out. I find that for the year 1923 the gold commissioner was paid a salary of $5,000; a living allowance in one item of $1,750; arrears of living allowances from April 1, 1919, of $5,<50.


Charles A. Stewart: I should
like to call my hon. friends' attention to the fact that those arrears were granted by the Civil Service Commission. I am not asking for immunity from responsibility because the account was supported by officials of the department, but it was scrutinized and recommended by the Civil Service Commission. I want to put my hon. friend right on that point.


George Black: I do not pretend
to say that the amount was unauthorized, or that it was paid in any improper way.
Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil). The idea my hon. friend is desirous of conveying, however, is that the minister increased the living allowance Of the gold eommisioner for periods in which he had been drawing a smaller amount than was allowed him.


George Black: And had managed
to live in the meantime. Does the minister suggest that he was not in favour of that increased living allowance?


Mr STEWART (Argenteuil):: 
George Black: I cannot quite see the force of my hon. friend's reference of
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the Civil Service Commission. Surely I am not to understand the minister to mean that the Civil Service Commission forced the government to pay this.


Charles A. Stewart: Oh no. I do not want my hon. friend to infer anything of the kind.


George Black: After all it only means that the increase and the payment were made in the usual way.


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


George Black: I was not attempting to criticize that for one moment; I merely say that it was unnecessary'' expenditure altogether and that no excuse could be conjured up for it. During the same year we find the gold commissioner making a trip to Dawson at an expense of $447, and a trip from Ottawa to Washington and return for $2(6, and at the same time there was an expenditure for board and room at Ottawa of $832. In all there was paid out in connection with the office of gold commissioner of Yukon in that year $14,047, less a refund of $600, leaving $13,447, as the amount paid, whereas, as a matter of fact the commissioner should only have been paid $6,500 in that year. This means that the government paid out unnecessarily in the year 1923 no less than $6,947. These figures are in the Auditor General's report; you cannot get away from them. W7hat explanation can there be for bringing the gold commissioner to Ottawa? It was not necessary to have him here at all.


Charles A. Stewart: I must take issue with my hon. friend in respect to that. We had difficulty about the importation of liquor into the Yukon, and my hon. friend knows this source was fairly remunerative in the way of" providing funds for the carrying on of the 'business of the country. Mr. Mackenzie was brought down here and sent to Washington to see whether an arrangement could not be made to get the liquor through United States territory into Yukon. My hon. friend takes upon himself a good deal of responsibility when he says there was no necessity for doing this or doing the other thing. That is a matter of opinion.


George Black: I am quite ready' to take the responsibility for what I say.


Charles A. Stewart: I am quite prepared to take the responsibility for my statements now-


George Black: Then we are agreed.


Charles A. Stewart: -or at any time.


George Black: I will give the-minister ample reason for my statements before I get through.


Charles A. Stewart: And the minister will give my hon. friend good reasons for his action when the proper time comes. I have always tried to treat Yukon decently, but my hon. friend does not seem to appreciate that fact.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


George Black: When the committee rose at six o'clock, I was endeavouring to show that in my opinion-of course, it is only my opinion and the minister is entitled to his-a considerable amount of money had been unnecessarily spent in connection with this interchange of officials between the Yukon and the Northwest Territories; that according to the Auditor General's report for the' year ended 31st March, 1923, practically $7,000 had been so unnecessarily spent. On referring to. the Auditor General's report for the year ended1 31st March, 1924, we find the salary of this official for twelve months, $5,000, twelve months' living allowance, $3,000, and expenses of a trip from Ottawa to Dawson, $540, or a total on those three items of $8,540. For some reason, probably best known to the minister, this official was before very long again summoned to Ottawa. The minister stated that he was summoned to. Ottawa to assist in framing a policy in relation to the Northwest Territories along lines of the conservation of wild life and of protecting the natives. Using the items showing the expenses of similar trips to and from Ottawa, I estimate that the expenses of that trip from Dawson to Ottawa will be approximately $450; that to keep this official at Ottawa for the period he was here will mean another expenditure of $800. Having had him here to advise on the conservation of wild life and the natives, for some reason or another it was necessary to send him back to Dawson. Estimating the expenses of the return trip to Dawson, in the same way, I submit _ it would mean

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another expense of $600, and now I understand that he is being brought back at once from Dawson to Ottawa at an approximate expense of $450. That means that a total will have been paid out of some $10,840, when, as a matter of fact, not a dollar more than $6,500 should have been paid. That means that there will have been unnecessarily spent prior to this date for that year some $4,340, or, over the two years, 1923 and 1924, no less a sum than $11,287. The minister may be able to get results that will justify that expenditure, but I doubt it. He has done me the honour of saying that I have had some experience in that northern country and know something of the capabilities of the various officials there. For some reason or another, this new office and this expedition of 1925 seem to be getting a good deal of newspaper publicity, all the way from Dawson City to Montreal. I find it in the Dawson daily paper in these words:
Mr. Mackenzie is back in the Yukon to wipd up certain government matters, as well as to settle private affairs, before he leaves to assume his new
duties in the capital...In speaking of his new office,
Mr. Mackenzie said that he would be in charge of the organization and operation of expeditions by both land and sea in northern areas of Canada with headquarters in Ottawa. Canada has decided to establish jurisdiction over her remote northern islands in order to prevent possible misunderstandings with other countries in the future, and also to explore and develop those possessions.
The Montreal Gazette in a despatch from Vancouver states:
During this summer Canada will organize an administration body and police for all the islands that have been discovered in the Arctic region, and which the Dominion claims as part of this country^
That would be a pretty big organization.
For this purpose, George P. Mackenzie, former gold commissioner of the Yukon, who has arrived from the north, has been given an assignment that, in point of territory over which he becomes the chief executive, is the most expansive that has been placed under the jurisdiction of any person heretofore-
Evidently it is a very wide kingdom that is being established.
-for it embraces that part of the Arctic on the Atlantic ocean side as well as the Pacific. The first expedition to bring order into the Arctic outposts and to report on the natural resources of the far-off Canadian possessions, will leave on July 1 under the leadership of Mr Mackenzie, who will have a staff of geologists and other experts in this party.
En route to Ottawa to complete the preparations for the first expedition, which will be by vessel to the north Atlantic, Mr. Mackenzie has arrived here.
I do not know whether the government desires to create the impression that such an important and according to the newspaper, expensive undertaking is about to begin. In the early days Yukon was swamped with expensive officialdom inaugurated by the gov-r ernment of the party which is now in power in Canada; and on the face of it it would seem that they are now transferring their ingenuity in that direction into the Arctic and the Northwest Territories. Certainly I cannot conceive of any good reason why such preparations as these khould be made. We had it from the minister to-day that nothing out of the ordinary was to be done by this Arctic expendition this year although apparently from other sources a good deal more is reported as about to be undertaken. The government is maintaining a complete and efficient staff of officials in connection with the Northwest Territories and Yukon and it is only comparatively recently that the office of Director of the Northwest Territories and Yukon branch was created. I do not say that it was unnecessary, but such an office was created; and in charge of the branch is a gentleman well versed in northern affairs and with a long official experience. Only a short time ago the duties of that office were all discharged by the Superintendent of Mining Lands and Yukon branch. I do not know whether the work in that branch has so expanded in recent years as to justify the creation of this new office, but the fact is that this has been done. I think the government would have been well advised to let things remain as they were and to take the advice of the Director of the Northwest Territories on such matters as will now come under the new office of chief of Arctic expeditions. The director is certainly capable of advising the government on these questions and he has at hand plenty of expert advisers now in the service. If the government had desired to go further they could have got advice also from probably the best qualified man in the Dominion to inform them upon all these matters; I refer to the Right Rev. Bishop Stringer, Bishop iof Yukon, who has spent some thirty years of his life within the Arctic circle among the natives in the course of his labours. I can refer the government to another man, who is in the service of the country, Mr. John Hawksley, Indian agent in Yukon. This gentleman has spent from twenty to thirty years in the service of the church as well, among the Eskimos and northern Indians. Both these gentlemen know these people very well and are thoroughly acquainted with their habits, having made this practically a life work; and I am sure the government could have had their advice for the asking.
The government has created the new office at a cost of $8,000 a year. It has increased
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the salary in connection with the old office from $6,500 to $8,000; and it has had two men on one job since October last, where only one man was needed, and this at a cost of approximately $16,000 instead of $6,500. If one turns to the public accounts and looks at the salary list he will find that the mining recorders in Yukon, who1 do as much work as this official, get along and raise families on salaries of $2,800 a year. I cannot see therefore where the necessity is for such difference in pay be ween these officials. I do not think that the minister will argue that he has so far disclosed any real reason for the shuffle in offices. I have heard all sorts of reports, a good many of which I am inclined to discount. Mr. Reid, the gentleman sent into the Yukon, borrowed, as the minister puts it, from the Denartment of Immigration to act as gold commissioner, has had a long record as a civil servant, a record worth preserving unimpaired. I hope he is not going to be encouraged to jeopardize that record by indulging in political partisanship. And I am not making any charge of that sort against him. Some rather unpleasant rumours have however reached me along this line and I shall know more about them after my visit to Yukon this summer.
The expenditure of money in connection with various public works looking to the development of Yukon has for some years now been spent with a view to getting fully a dol'ar's worth for every dollar put out; and it has been spent without regard to political patronage, both under the late administration and under this government. There is a great expanse of very promising territory up there, rich in mineral deposits which are by degrees being developed, and the government is well advised in spending money on those natural resources. It has been the practice to put in charge of these modest expenditures men who are experts in the work, for instance, of road and bridge building; and the policy has been to employ returned soldiers and married men as far as possible. The results have been satisfactory and I trust that there will be no departure from that policy, although I have heard rumours to the contrary. If these rumours are well founded I do not think anyone could be blamed for considering such a change of policy as nothing more or less than political partisanship.
The necessity for this elaborate Arctic expedition has not yet been established. I think a number of hon. gentlemen agree with me that the best policy in dealing with the Eskimos is to leave them absolutely alone.

They have been there longer than the white men have been on this continent and have not needed such nursing. Simply because reports have come to the minister that the Eskimo girls are dancing to jazz music is no reason why we should worry about them. Possibly they may be indulging in Eskimo Pie or dissipating in similar ways, but that is no reason why we should send, expensive expeditions into that country to deal with them. The government would be well advised to get information from the officers now in the department who are fully qualified to inform them and whose advice would be valuable. This would be much better than any shuffle in offices such as was disclosed this afternoon. I hope that before the item passes the minister will give the real reason for this change in officials in the two northern territories.


Charles A. Stewart: I cannot add anything to what I said this afternoon with respect to the change in personnel. I regret that the hon. member does not agree with the policy of the minister and of the department in this matter. I think I know why he is anxious about the changes in the Yukon territory, but I can assure him that in the reports from Mr. Reid up to date there is no suggestion of any change in the personnel. I am informed that the official who has charge of the road work is a very good man, and some of the other officials against whom complaints were lodged have been given a very good recommendation so far as I have been able to ascertain. It is not my desire, that the administration should undergo any change until we make up our minds whether or not an expenditure of a very large amount of money annually is to be made. As my hon. friend knows, the output from the mines at the moment is not bringing any return to the government of Canada by way of taxes or otherwise. I am advised that, all told, there are not more than 2,800 white people in the territory. My hon. friend seems to have examined the Auditor General's report pretty thoroughly, and I think he will agree with me that that is a pretty stiff expenditure for what would be a very small sized municipality in other parts of the Dominion. I need not discuss with him the probability of a very drastic reduction in expenditure. I would not suggest that there should be any reduction of expenditure on road making, because I think the industry must be looked after, and possibly at a later date it will become remunerative. But so far I felt I had to meet the requests of the mining companies

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and suspend for another year the royalties on the silver-lead output. I suppose no one in u public office escapes bombardment by people who for partisan reasons desire to see changes made I am bound to say that, so far as I can ascertain, the administration of the Yukon has been very well carried on. If I have made a mistake of policy in bringing Mr. Mackenzie out of the Yukon, I think my hon. friend will agree with me that as gold commissioner he rendered very efficient and faithful service, and it seems to me he is entitled,, to some consideration therefor. Despite all my hon. friend has said, I cannot help but think that Mr. Mackenzie is admirably fitted for the job that we want him to do. There is no elaborate expedition planned. I do not know where the articles referred to came from, particularly the one in the Gazette. We are not planning anything different from what we have planned in other years. Mr. Henderson succeeded Mr. Craig who cannot any longer go with these expeditions. He is a very admirable officer and knows the country thoroughly, as does Mr. Finnie, who is sitting here and is ndministrator of the Northwest Territories, fhould any dispute arise as to our right to the possession of that territory, I think the hon. gentleman opposite would be the first to rise in his place and criticize the government. I am trying to avoid such a contingency. To make frank statements with respect to what we have in mind at the moment perhaps would not be wise, because what we say here is flashed all over the world. We are quietly and unassumingly trying to maintain our right in the territory. They may not be valuable, but I think they are, and I believe the future will prove the correctness of my view. I frankly confess that our first consideration in organizing the expedition is the native population. I do not agree with mv hon. friend that we should leave them to their own devices. That might be all right but for the fact that fur traders are coming in from the United States and from Denmark and Sweden, and we must protect the native population.


Arthur Edward Ross: I do not know Mr Mackenzie, but I hope he will appreciate the generous action of the minister in withdrawing him from the Yukon for service in the Arctic regions. If that is a reward for good service. I would pray to be delivered from such a gift. The study of the Eskimos has been taken up by very few people, and I do not think that because a man has seen service in the Yukon he is apt bo be fitted for this important task, which requires a great deal of
tact and sound judgment. The Eskimos have their own peculiar laws, and it would be very difficult for us to interfere with them. For instance, the minister says there are rumours that ithe Eskimos are suffering from famine. Well, part of the daily household work of the Eskimo woman is devoted to chewing her husband's Shoes 'to keep them soft, and if an inexperienced rnian found these women so employed, he would be quite mistaken if he rushed to the conclusion that there was a scarcity of food. It would also be very difficult for us to interfere with the marriage customs of these people. They have always practised polygamy, and very often they trade their wives. An inexperienced administrate! would find himself in trouble if he said to those people, "You must discontinue this custom." However strange the custom may seeim to us, naturally the Eskimo thinks it is all right, and very often he returns to his first wife if he is left alone. Then too, the Eskimo is superstitious; he believes in certain spirits and is convinced that he who dies a violent death goes at once to the highest regions of bliss. This leads to their disposing of one another in a way that we would regard as murder, but they look upon it as the shortcut to their valhalla. Their customs are also peculiar with respect to their old people, and in this they are not very far behind what the Greeks practised in their palmiest days. The Eskimo believes in enjoying the 'present to the full, and he gorges himself iat every meal. Consequently, when they come to a time of want and famine they move out to find food and they leave the old people and the sick behind to die. They believe that is a thoroughly proper custom, and it would be difficult for any inexperienced administrator to go up to that country and tell the people that they must take care of the aged and the sick and abide by our laws. The minister is doing a very dangerous thing in sending an inexperienced administrator among these people, and be will find himself some day minus a veTy good gold commissioner in the Yukon but with a very poor administrator or investigator of the customs of the Eskimo.


Edward Joseph Garland: In 1921-22
the amount of this vote was $208,170; to-day it is well over $352,000. What is the chief reason for the increase?


Charles A. Stewart: In 1921-22 the sending of a summer expedition to the north had been discontinued, and that accounts for a fairly good portion of our present expenditure, Since 'then we have established five or six new police posts throughout that north country, and although that does not
4tm
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co-me under this vote, we provide transportation Cor the police up there and do other work in that connection. Then, the establishment of the wireless since that time has run us into considerable expenditure.


Edward Joseph Garland: I understood ithe minister to say a few moments ago that he proposed to reduce ithe expenditure in that territory as far as possible.


Charles A. Stewart: No, ,my suggestion was that we might reduce it, in other branches of ithe Interior department, but not in the Northwest Territories.


Robert Alexander Hoey: Are ithe Eskimo people re-oognized as wards oif the government? I remember ,a year or two ago we (passed some legislation along that line.


Charles A. Stewart: That was
really putting the 'Eskimo under the control of the Indian department, but we have not token any steps in that direction, except the sending of a medical man up to Cumberland gulf.
iMr. HOEY: But they are not recognized as wards?
IMr. STEWART (Argenteuil): I am afraid we have to say they are. Werfe it not so, we could not very well go in and try them and imprison or execute them for infractions of our laws, as wo have been doing.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Yukon.-Salaries and expenses connected
with the administration ot the Territory, including Surveys	
$65,000	00Grant to Local Council	
45,000	00Grant for maintenance and construction of roads	
70,000	00
Charles A. Stewart: If I might be permitted, Mr. Chairman, before we take up this vote, in fairness to a family and at the request of the hon. member for Fort William and Rainy River (Mr. Manion), I promised a little while ago to make a statement, when the estimates were under consideration, with respect to young Crawford who perished in the Wrangel island expedition. There has been a good deal of misunderstanding about this unfortunate expedition and Canada's share in any responsibilty in connection with it. We had nothing to do with the expedition. A letter which I shall read from Professor Crawford, the boy's father, will explain that his son was induced to join the expedition on the strength of statements made that the island was claimed by Great Britain; that the only other contender for it was the United States, and that Great Britain wished to secure Wrangel island as a base for air services that might later be established.


Arthur Meighen: Who made this statement?


Charles A. Stewart: That will
come out in the letter from Professor Crawford, which I shall read. It is as follows:
Ontario College of Education University of Toronto
Toronto, May 8, 1925.
Hon. Mr. Stewart,
Minister of the Interior,
Ottawa.
Dear Sir:
We understand from the press that you are to give a statement in the House regarding Stefansson's Wrangel island expedition.
In justice to our son, Allan Rudyard Crawford, the twenty-year old commander of the expedition, we wish to bring to your attention the fact that he (and ourselves) knew nothing of the history of Wrangel island except what Mr. Stefansson had told him. Mr. Stefansson led him to believe that Great Britain had a legitimate claim to the island, and that the British government would back up his action in raising the British flag thereon. The nation having the next best claim, according to Mr. Stefansson, was the United States.
Our son was told nothing of Russia's claims, and it was not until he reached East cape on the voyage to Wrangel that he became aware that the Russians claimed the island. Could you make it plain in your statement that our son was unaware of Russia's claim?
Stefansson, who had no other British subject available to lead his expedition, appealed to our son's patriotism in such a way that the boy felt it his duty to go and raise the flag on Wrangel, and he died in the belief that he was dying for the empire.


Arthur Meighen: Is that the entire letter?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes. It
was written, I presume, after the hon. member (Mr. Manion) had raised the question in the House and I had promised to make a statement. I replied to this letter as follows:
Dear Mr. Crawford :
I was glad to receive your letter of the eighth instant and to learn that your son had no knowledge of the Russian claim to Wrangel island when he was persuaded in 1921 to undertake that most unfortunate venture. The probability is I will make a statement in the House regarding this matter in the near future, and in doing so will be glad to follow your suggestion and make this point clear.
Thanking you for bringing this matter to my attention,
I remains,
Yours faithfully.
This is the statement I wish to make in this connection, Mr. Chairman:
The Canadian government steamer Karluk, carrying members of the Canadian Arctic expedition, was crushed in the ice off the coast of Siberia, during the winter of 1913-14. The nearest land was Wrangel island, some 90 miles to the south. Before the sinking of the ship the crew were able to land provisions on the ice which, during the succeeding months, were transported by dogs to Wrangel island. The occupation of that island was taken up in March, 1914, and continued until the following September, when the survivors were taken off by an American vessel the King and Winge. Shortly after leaving Wrangel they met the United States re-

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venue cutter Bear, and as that ship was on the way to rescue the survivors, and having better accCmmoda-1ion, they were transferred.
Mr. Stefansson, in the belief that Wrangel island occupied a strategic position for an Arctic air base, wished to take possession of it on behalf of the British crown. With that object in view he formed the Stefansson Arctic Exploration and Development Company. He also intended to hunt and trap and later applied, unsuccessfully, to the department for a lease or license for that purpose.
In 1921, under private financing Stefansson sent a party to occupy Wrangel island.


Arthur Meighen: When was the Stefansson Company formed?


Charles A. Stewart: In 1921,
according to my notes. It says "In 1921, under private financing, Stefansson sent a party to occupy Wrangel island."


Arthur Meighen: Just before that the minister referred to some company of his.


Charles A. Stewart: This is a
continuation of the same company, the Stefansson Arctic Exploration and Development Company.


Arthur Meighen: The first company that
organized the expedition was in 1921.


Charles A. Stewart: That is the record. It continues:
Mr. Allan R. Crawford, a Canadian of Toronto was the leader, the other members being E. Lome Knight, W. F. Maurer, Milton Gaile-all United States citizens -and an Eskimo seamstress, Ada Blackjack. The government took no part in this expedition and were in no way responsible for the hoisting of the flag over Wrangel island. Nor did the government give Stefans-son any encouragement to do so.


Arthur Meighen: When did the expedition leave?


Charles A. Stewart: In 1921.


Arthur Meighen: What time of the year?


Charles A. Stewart: In August.
I am aiso informed that:
Crawford was induced to lead the expedition believing that Great Britain had the best claim to the island. He knew nothing of Russia's claim until he reached East cape on the Siberian coast.
In 1922, Stefansson organized a relief party, under Captain Joseph Bernard, and applied to this department for a contribution. The government duly considered the matter and P.C. 1735, of the 21st August, 1922, authorized the advance to Stefansson of the sum of $3,000 "to assist in providing for the relief of these four men who were left on Wrangel island." The steamer Teddy Bear left Nome on the 22nd August, 1922. It proceeded to the Siberian coast in the vicinity of East cape but, on account of ice, was unable to reach Wrangel island. The boat was obliged to return without establishing communication.


Arthur Meighen: When did it leave, and
when did it arrive on the Siberian coast?


Charles A. Stewart: I have
given the dates.


Arthur Meighen: I did not get them.


Charles A. Stewart: The memorandum reads:
P.C. 1735, of the 21st August, 1922, authorized the advance to Stefansson of the sum of $3,000.


Arthur Meighen: That is when the government authorized it. When did they leave?


Charles A. Stewart: They left on the 22nd of August, 1922.


Arthur Meighen: And returned when?


Charles A. Stewart: They went
to the vicinity of East Cape, but on account of ice were unable to reach Wrangel island.


Arthur Meighen: When did they return?


Charles A. Stewart: The following month, I am informed.
The memorandum continues:
The following year, 1923, another relief expedition was sent out but to this out the department did not contribute. It was headed by Harold Noice, on the steamer Donaldson. It was successful in reaching Wrangel island and what it found is now well known- Ada Blackjack wras the only survivor.
In 1924, while the government did not intend to set up any claim to Wrangel island, they assisted Mr. Stefansson to place his representations before the Imperial government, by advancing to him the sum of $700 to defray his travelling expenses-P.C. 714 of the 21st August, 1923. It appears the Imperial government were not disposed to lay claim to the island but, before reaching a decision, submitted the matter to this government. P.C. 1227 of the 17th July, 1924, sets out clearly our position. It says "The view taken by the Imperial authorities as to the undesirability of laying claim to Wrangel island is shared by the government of Canada."
The tragic end of the 1921 expedition is most regrettable. Beyond doubt Crawford, the leader, was prompted by patriotic motives and died in the belief that he perished for the empire. The expedition was, however, carried out under the responsibility of Mr. Stefansson and the Stefansson Arctic Exploration and Development Company, and this government was not in any way connected with it.


Arthur Meighen: I do not quite understand one feature of the story. The object of the expedition of 1922 was to try to rescue the party?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, a relief expedition.


Arthur Meighen: Yes, and I think the contribution to it was entirely justified. Did the government in any way supervise the character of the vessel, or have anything to do with selecting the personnel with a view to making sure the expedition would arrive at Wrangel island?


Charles A. Stewart: No, I am
told, we did not. That was just a straight contribution to the relief expedition organized by Stefansson himself for the relief of these men.



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Arthur Meighen: I have no doubt Stefans-son brought before the government the seriousness of the plight these men would be in.


Charles A. Stewart: Rather the
contrary. He always maintained there would be no doubt about them being able to maintain themselves, that they could live upon the country, which I thought at the time was strange. But that was his contention to me personally. I am now speaking of his personal representations to me. Of course, he pressed very strongly that the Canadian government should lay claim to the island. He repeatedly urged consideration of that matter upon us, but I always felt the island was away out of the reach of Canadian territory, but that if it were to be available as an air base, and the British authorities thought so, the best thing for him to do was to take the matter up with them. I must say that until the return of the second expedition he maintained stoutly that there was no doubt about these young men being able to maintain themselves.


Robert James Manion: I am sorry I was not in
and did not hear the minister read the whole of the statement. Did he give the facts as to the quantity of supplies, food and so forth, this expedition had with them, and for what length of time?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


Robert James Manion: The minister does not
know what these supplies were?


Charles A. Stewart: We were
in no way responsible for the expedition. It was organized apparently in Seattle. The only Canadian in the party was young Crawford, and the supplies, as a matter of fact the whole expedition, was organized without consultation with the Canadian government at all, and without any contribution from us. We had nothing to do with it.


Arthur Meighen: Was the relief expedition of 1922 financed privately outside of this government's help?


Charles A. Stewart: Oh yes.


Arthur Meighen: Does the minister know
where the funds came from? Did the United States government supply the funds?


Charles A. Stewart: I do not
think they did, but I would not like to make that statement definitely. I think it was largely private funds. I remember Stefansson telling me that the money he had raised to put into this enterprise was from friends and acquaintances, and he said what a terrific financial loss it was going to be to him.


Arthur Meighen: You mean to his friends
and acquaintances.


Charles A. Stewart: I simply
repeat the statement he made to me. I have no knowledge as to who sustained the loss.


Arthur Meighen: He may have put up
the money himself, and if so it would be his own loss. But to the extent that a lot of his friends and acquaintances put up money it would not be his loss. Were the government aware of the failure of the expedition in September, 1922, and if not when did they become aware of it?


Charles A. Stewart: The first
relief expedition?


Arthur Meighen: The first relief expedition, yes.


Charles A. Stewart: I do not
know that I can answer that question. I do not think that we had any official on the vessel, although I would not like to make a definite statement to that effect. The next summer was the time when he approachd us for assistance to send the second relief expedition.


Arthur Meighen: The boat that went up in 1921 was a Canadian boat carrying the British flag?


Charles A. Stewart: Well, there
is not any doubt that he intended to raise the British flag on the island, at least that was the-


Arthur Meighen: It was a Canadian expedition, it was not American even if all but one of the men on it were Americans?


Charles A. Stewart: I have not
the slightest doubt, Stefansson went with the firm purpose of taking possession of the island for the British government. That was his statement.


Robert Alexander Hoey: Did the British government
contribute to the first expedition?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


Arthur Meighen: Did Stefansson approach the government for assistance for the second expedition?


Charles A. Stewart: In 1922?


Arthur Meighen: In 1923 that was?


Robert Alexander Hoey: In 1920.


Arthur Meighen: According to the minister's statement it was in 1923.

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Charles A. Stewart: I cannot
say as to that. He was here repeatedly urging upon us the desirability of laying claim to this island. As a matter of fact at one time he wanted us to assure him of a lease for the island but whether or not he approached us for assistance for the second expedition I am unable to say. I have a very clear recollection that he repeatedly told me that there was no danger with respect to the lives of these young men-that they could live off the island.


Arthur Meighen: I have not the slightest
doubt he said that to the minister for I know that is the doctrine he is always preaching, he preaches it in his books, but the point is this: the expedition of 1922 was, as I understand it from the minister's statement, solely a relief expedition. It was not organized, even in part, for the purpose of establishing British suzerainty over the island. It had nothing to do with that purpose at all, it was purely for relief.


Charles A. Stewart: I may say
that the feeling of the government here was that if the British government wanted the island, why, all right; but so far as the Canadian government were concerned we were not going to lay any specific claim to the island. Stefansson pleaded poverty in 1922 and the difficulty of reaching the island, and naturally we felt that it was a wise thing that a ship should get there in some way or another, and see whether these young men were on the island or not. However, that expedition failed. I cannot recollect whether he approcahed us in 1923 for any assistance to reach the island.


Arthur Meighen: I heartily endorse the
conduct of the government in giving assistance for the purpose of relieving the possible, and I would have thought, the most probable, plight of these young men on Wrangel island, but my criticism would be this:	the government's concern was not sufficient, it should have been more, and in donating the money care should have been taken to see that the boat, the personnel, and the provisioning were such as were likely to achieve the desired object. I do not think the expedition should have been left merely as a sort of personal enterprise. Here was a Canadian expedition, unauthorized it is true, for the purpose of establishing British suzerainty over a certain island. Nevertheless it was understood as a distinctly Canadian expedition from the beginning.
261i


Charles A. Stewart: I do not
think my right hon. friend has placed the proper construction upon the enterprise. It was not Canadian. It was clearly intimated, and the memorandum points out with equal clearness, that it was a British and not Canadian enterprise. Crawford's father makes it very clear in his letter, that he and his son were induced to go because the expedition was going for the purpose of claiming Wrangel island for Great Britain, not for Canada-


Arthur Meighen: Oh yes, I know.


Charles A. Stewart: -and the
ship did not start from a Canadian port.


Arthur Meighen: When it is claimed for
Great Britain it is claimed, of courje, for the British Empire, but my point is this: that whatever they may have purposed to do -even although they purposed to claim the island for Britain as distinct from Canada; which they did not, but even if they did-the expedition itself was Canadian. It was a Canadian who got it up.


Charles A. Stewart: No, no.
Stefansson is not a Canadian is he?


Arthur Meighen: Of course.


Robert Forke: He is sometimes one and
sometimes the other.


Arthur Meighen: Stefansson is a citizen
of Canada, surely the minister does not dispute that?


Robert Forke: He was bom in Gimli, in
Selkirk.


Arthur Meighen: He went down to
Dakota and lived there a while and afterwards lived here.


Charles A. Stewart: Did he not take American citizenship at that time?


Arthur Meighen: I could not say. If he did he lost it again. Stefansson is a Canadian.


Charles A. Stewart: He was
bom Canadian but my understanding was that he had taken out American citizenship.


Arthur Meighen: I never heard that. If
he did he must have re-established his Canadian citizenship. Stefansson is a Canadian; I do not think any one can dispute that.


Charles A. Stewart: It is disputed.


Arthur Meighen: Is it?
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Robert Forke: I have read a good many
of Stefansson's works. I have read his book on Wrangei island. He attaches no blame to the government in regard to that expedition. If he blames any one it is the British government for being slow to move. Sometimes he is an American and sometimes he is a Canadian, just as it suits him or where-ever he happens to be living.


Arthur Meighen: I am not considering the question as to whether Stefansson attaches blame to anyone or not, that is not what I am arguing at all, I am arguing that it was a Canadian expedition.


Charles A. Stewart: I cannot let my right hon. friend say that. It was not a Canadian expedition. To say that it was is putting an entirely wrong construction upon the matter. All the records go to show that it was not a Canadian expedition.


Arthur Meighen: Is this company registered?


Charles A. Stewart: I do not
think it is registered in Canada. It was registered in the United States, I think.


Arthur Meighen: Is that what the departmental officers think?


Charles A. Stewart: I am pretty sure that I am correct about that. However, the whole thing was organized in Seattle.


Arthur Meighen: If the company owning
the vessel is an American company then I would not contend for a minute that it was a Canadian expedition or the responsibility primarily Canadian. But as I understood it Stefansson was a Canadian and his company was Canadian and the boat owned by them, and the man in charge-although that makes very little difference-was a Canadian. The whole question is, was it the expedition of a Canadian company or was it not? If it was, our responsibility is considerably greater than it would be merely from the fact that there was a Canadian on board. Of course we have some responsibility from that fact also. I would like to know definitely whether the company was Canadian or not, and also the nationality of Stefansson. I never entertained any doubt on the matter. I always held that Stefansson was a Canadian and nothing else. I do not know what authority the leader of the Progressive party had when he claimed that Stefansson was an American. I never heard him so claimed.


Robert Forke: I should like to be allowed to set myself right. I have no authority to style him an American, but I have read his books and sometimes he speaks as a Canadian and sometimes as an American.


Arthur Meighen: I never heard of that.


Robert Forke: I am inclined to believe
the minister is right, and that Stefansson did take out naturalization papers in the States. He got his education in the States and lived all his life there.


Arthur Meighen: Oh, no.


Robert Forke: He went to South Dakota when he was quite a boy.


Arthur Meighen: He lived there to young manhood.


Charles A. Stewart: If we have the records, I shall be glad to verify where the company was organized. I know the outfitting was done from an American port, but the expedition as regards Crawford was for the purpose of taking possession of Wrangei island for the British crown.


Arthur Meighen: Yes, of course.


Charles A. Stewart: There was
never any suggestion that the Canadian government knew a single thing about it.


Arthur Meighen: I do not think there was.


Charles A. Stewart: Therefore,
I object to my right hon. friend saying that it was a Canadian expedition.


Arthur Meighen: There have been, especially in the last few years, many things Canadian that the Canadian government knows nothing of. That is not the point. It was Canadian if the company was Canadian, and you cannot give it any other title. If the company was an American company, then, of course, there would be a good deal to say. In fact, I think there is no use arguing whether it was Canadian or Canadian responsibility at all. It was a Canadian company that owned the boat and launched it.


Charles A. Stewart: My right
hon. friend surely would not argue that if some company took out letters of incorporation in Canada and then started off on an expedition, the Canadian government would be in any way responsible for that expedition?


Arthur Meighen: I never said that it would be responsible. What I say is that if it is a Canadian enterprise and if, following that Canadian enterprise which has a laudable

r~ i
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object, whether a wise one or not, Canadian lives are imperilled, the fact that it was initially Canadian makes it more our concern than if it was originally Argentine or United States. If it was Canadian, I think the government should have taken a great deal more care in 1922 to see that the expedition was so fitted up as likely to reach its goal and to serve its purpose. In a case of that kind, the government of Canada, just as the government of any other country, would do under similar circumstances, even if it was only a Canadian life at stake, a Canadian life that could not possibly take care of itself, would naturally take pains to see to it that that life was rescued if possible. Take for example what is going on to-day, the Amundsen flight to the north. That is an American expedition. As far as I know, there is not a Canadian on board. It is American in initiation and personnel, and the American government takes an interest, not that it authorized the expedition, not that it is responsible for what that expedition does, but that it seeks to the best of its ability to see that American lives are not lost unnecessarily in any enterprise of that sort. The same wou'd apply in this case. I am free to admit that it would not apply to the same degree if it was of American initiation and launched by an American to begin with. There would still be some responsibility from the fact that there was a Canadian on board. The government, in fact, recognized that by the S3,000 grant. If it had been purely American and nobody interested in this country, the government would not have made a grant.
Mr..GARLAND (Bow River): Might that not have been done from a purely humanitarian standpoint?


Arthur Meighen: The American nation, in case of a great calamity, might welcome a little help from us, but they can still afford to come to the assistance of two or three men without the help of Canada.


Edward Joseph Garland: But was it not. a Canadian expedition that was going up to try to relieve them?


Arthur Meighen: A Canadian expedition
might go, but the government would not be justified in assisting if there were only Americans concerned.


Edward Joseph Garland: Why not?


Arthur Meighen: Because they are quite capable of looking after themselves.


Robert Alexander Hoey: They are almost as rich as we are.


Arthur Meighen: Yes. I am glad the hon. member for Springfield recognizes that and something of the reasons why. Let us not get away from the point. The government recognized its responsibility in its grant and rightly so. The grant was perfectly proper. But surely the minister should, through some of his officers, have seen to it that the grant was not spent simply in an utterly inefficient manner upon an inefficient vessel, inefficiently equipped. I do not presume it was wholly inefficient. It turned out to be ineffective for its purpose, and when it failed, the minister would be all the more impressed with the fact that the lives that were sought to be relieved a few months before, would be in still greater danger. It seems to be difficult to realize that the government would sit idly by if even one Canadian were at stake up there on an American expedition.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: In view of
the right hon. gentleman's last remark that the government sat idly by when one Canadian life was at stake-


Arthur Meighen: After 1922.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have not very clearly in mind at the moment all the facts surrounding the incident of the relief expedition, but I recall that when it came to the attention of the government that there was a young Canadian at Wrangel island, who had gone on this venture through the highest of patriotic motives and whose life was in danger, the government did not lose a moment in granting relief, in offering to assist the expedition to proceed north. My impression is that the request for help came from the boy's father and mother; that it came, if I recollect aright, through the editor of one of the Toronto papers in a communication stating that the boy's parents had brought the matter to his attention and asked that the government should give some assistance. I recall that part of it in a personal way, because I remember being very much impressed with the circumstance as placed before me at the time. My recollection is that the government immediately took steps to find out the quickest method of lending assistance and forwarded this sum of money towards starting off the expedition at once to the north. When we made inquiries, it was discovered that the ship was ready or could be got ready to sail immediately if financial assistance could be given, and it was because this one life was at stake a life which we regarded as precious so far as our country was concerned, the life of a young man of the highest character who had started on a mission
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which he believed to be one of service to the empire, that we felt no stone should be left unturned to see to it that his life would be rescued and spared, as at the time, we believed was still possible. Since then I have met Allan Crawford's parents and talked with them. They have gathered all the information that it is possible to get with respect to the government's action and the action of others in this matter, and they are firmly convinced that, on the part of the government, there was no neglect in any particular. Indeed, I have in my hand a letter which was written to me by Mrs. Crawford shortly after the debate which took place in this House last session. So anxious were the parents of young Crawford to be present in parliament when this discussion came up, that I was asked by them if I would send them some word when the debate on the Wrangel island question was likely to take place on the estimates. Unfortunately I was not in the House at the moment the estimates came up, and I failed to send that word to them. I received then this letter which speaks for itself. The letter is from Mrs. Crawford, the boy's mother; it is marked "personal," but I think it now has a public interest.
168 Walmer Road,
Toronto, April 9, 1924. Hon. W. L. Mackenzie King,
Prime Minister,
Ottawa, Ont.
Dear Mr. King:
We were disappointed that the discussion of the Wrangel island question came up so incidentally that there was not time for you to send us notice.
Our newspapers contain only the briefest reports of the debate. We wondered if any special reference had been made to our son, Allan Crawford, and that he had died in the belief that he was doing a service for the empire. Is there likely to be any further discussion regarding Wrangel?
Mr. Stefansson has claimed repeatedly that the relief ship "Teddy Bear" sailed a month too late in 1922 owing to your government's delay in supplying the $3,000, thus implying that government delay was the cause of the Wrangel island tragedy. The enclosed statement by Captain Joseph Bernard proves that the sailing was not too late, and that therefore your government was not to blame for the tragedy.
I am,
Yours sincerely,
Helen Crawford.
I am sorry that among the papers I have here there does not appear to be the clipping to which the letter makes reference, but as I recall it, it was a cutting containing an interview with one who was in a position to know, which confirmed very strongly the view expressed in the letter I have just read from young Crawford's mother. I think if the parents of this heroic young man, who gave his life in the service of the empire

just as truly as any of the igreat explorers and adventurers have given their lives in the service of mankind, feel that the government of his country was in no way negligent as regards the relief that was sent, this parliament can well afford to take the same view.
If there is aught remaining to ibe done it is to acknowledge the great patriotism of this young lad who undoubtedly was actuated by the highest motives, who showed exceptional courage and daring, and who I feel deserves at the hands of the country some expression of honour to his memory. That expression I should like to see given in the form of a public tablet erected in an appropriate place. I think that a deed of heroic courage of this character should certainly not pass unnoticed. I should add, seeing that the parents of this young lad, having viewed the matter from all sides, consider that the country has been true to their son that it would be most unseemlj for any further question concerning the effort made to effect his rescue, to be raised in this House.


Arthur Meighen: I did not know either
the iboy himself or his parents, nor have I met his parents nor heard from them since; nor had I heard indirectly any expression of their views in the matter until the letter was read this evening. Not only is this the fact, but I did not come to the debate with any idea in my mind that any blame attached to the government. I had not heard outside that any such blame was to foe ascribed to anyone. I came rather in quite the contrary spirit; I pursued my questions merely with a view to ascertaining the history of the whole matter, and on the point covered by the letter I would not for a moment attach any blame. I never suggested that the expedition left too late, nor had I known of anyone else having made sudh a suggestion. I think the government was fully justified in the help it gave and I am glad it gave that help promptly to the expedition. The letter does not touch the point as to why the expedition was not followed up. There may have been reasons why it was not, but they have not been disclosed in the debate; and I should like the minister, possibly at a later date, to improve his recollection of the events, to look up the records, and to consult with those who had more closely to do with the matter in order to find out what explanation there is. At first sight it would seem to me at any rate as if, having started out on something of such great human consequence, it was natural that the officers concerned should see to it that the expedition was not wholly abandoned. And apparently, so far as the government is

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concerned, it was. I am not at all anxious to raise a controversy now; I should be the most pleased of any in the House if some explanation could be given. And even without such an fexjplanation I am not one of those who feel that the minister can keep everything in his mind; I fancy the matter should have been brought to his attention by the officers concerned. I shall welcome gladly any explanation which the minister can give.
I join in the tribute paid to the young man. While not knowing him or his immediate family, I knew the Crawfords and I had heard of the lad and of his ability even prior to the expedition. He was a young man of exceptional attainment and personality and character. No boy of the age of twenty would undertake an enterprise so perilous, so venturesome, so novel, unless he were indeed extraordinary. That he should have been lost while in the midst bf that enterprise; that his death should have been of so tragic a character, in the northern wilds alone; and that his parents should1 have suffered as they have been called upon to suffer, is indeed something to be deeply lamented by the people of Canada. If some fitting measure can be introduced, some fitting plan suggested, to immortalize the act which he performed and to do justice to his memory in the eyes of the Canadian people, and particularly in the eyes of the parents of the boy himself, I am sure that I for one shall be pleased, as every other hon. member of the House undoubtedly will be.


Robert Forke: I have read Stefansson's
account of the story of Wrangel island and, so far as I can see, I do not think that Mr. Stefansson blames anyone. Nor is anyone particularly to blame in connection with the tragedy of Wrangel island. Probably the trouble arose through the optimism of Mr. Stefansson himself; he believed that it was possible for people to live off the land, as he put it, out in this Arctic region. Apparently he had no fear whatever for the welfare of these young men during the first year. They had a lot of provisions in addition to what they could secure in the way of live animals in the northern waters, and when that first expedition was outfitted from Nome he had considerable trouble in raising sufficient funds to equip the ship. It was perhaps a week or two late in starting, and if I am not mistaken that is admitted. We all know the story of this tragedy; it was impossible for the expedition to get within reach of the island owing to the ice. Captain Bernier was forced to come back. Stefansson claims that during all that following winter he had no fears; he
felt satisfied that the men would be able to live until the next season. We know now that he was wrong, and the conditions were such that undoubtedly they endured a great deal of hardship. There is some question as to whether it was want of food that induced the three men to leave Wrangel island for Siberia, or whether they were in sound health when they undertook the journey. They had attempted previously to make the journey and were driven back; after some weeks, with a lighter outfit and with one dog fewer, they made the attempt again. Unfortunately however, immediately after they had started out, a violent storm came up and they were heard of no more. Probably they were overwhelmed in the storm; possibly in a weakened state they could not stand up against the rigour of the elements. In regard to Knight, who was left on the island with Ada Blackjack, the Eskimo woman, suffering, and who eventually died, the story is tragic enough indeed. I do not want to blame anyone unjustly, but I think the mistake arose from Mr. Stefansson's belief that it was possible for men to live out there two years without outside help. He makes the claim that when people live in the Arctic regions one or two years they acquire a taste for the fatty animals, such as seals, which they catch. That may or may not be true; I do not know. However, the story is a tragic one, a story of great bravery. And while we cannot but lament the end we rejoice at the heroism and the courage of young men of this character who would attempt to endure such hardship for the purpose of bringing so remote an island into the empire. With the concluding remarks of the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) and the leader of the opposition (Mr. Meighen) I entirely agree. I think some fitting memorial ought to be erected to this young Canadian, who certainly was a hero in the fullest sense of the word. Perhaps some blame might be attached to Mr. Stefansson for leaving this youth where he would have to endure such severe hardships. I repeat, I heartily endorse the suggestion made by the right hon. Prime Minister and the leader of the opposition.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dominion lands and parks-salaries of the Dominion Lands outside service, $469,556.
William Garland McQuarrie: 
Charles A. Stewart: I have not got the actual details, but we closed some offices and amalgamated others and were thus
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able to effect this saving in the western territory.


William Garland McQuarrie: What offices were
closed?


Charles A. Stewart: We closed
the Saska oon and Swift Current offices and reduced the staff in others. We also closed the Kamloops office, but found it necessary to re-open it to provide for the business in that particular locality.


William Garland McQuarrie: Was any saving
effected in British Columbia at all?


Charles A. Stewart: Not in the closing of offices, but we have not as big a staff there as we had formerly.


William Garland McQuarrie: The minister speaks of amalgamation; does he refer to the Forestry branches?


Charles A. Stewart: No. My hon. friend will find an increase in that vote when we reach it.


Neil Haman McTaggart: How many inspectors
are in the field in the timber and grazing branch in Saskatchewan and Alberta and who are they?


Charles A. Stewart: We have
fourteen timber inspectors and twenty-seven homestead inspectors but we have not got * them divided by provinces.


Neil Haman McTaggart: I understand the inspector who has been inspecting grazing leases in Saskatchewan has his headquarters at Kamloops B.C. I was wondering how large his district is.


Charles A. Stewart: Their territories are pretty extensive. As far as possible we keep hese men within a reasonable distance of where they reside but when a dispute arises and a reinspection is ordered, we send in a chief inspector from the outside. Generally speaking, we have discontinued the separation of homestead and graziing inspection. hese two lines being somewhat similar. but timber inspection has to do with entirely different work and is a distinct branch in itself.


Neil Haman McTaggart: I understand that last summer the policy of issuing grazing leases for ten years only was changed, and that now these leases are issued for a term of twenty-one years. What was the reason for this change of policy?


Charles A. Stewart: As my hon. friend knows, the cattle raisers have had a rather difficult time, and for financial reasons 
were not able to develop the cattle industry to the same extent as would be possible on a more permanent basis. The banks apparently look upon any investment in cattle with more favour if the cattle mta has a twenty-one year lease. Therefore after listening to all the representations that were made, I felt it was the right thing to ex end the term of these leases, particularly in the southern grazing areas. I consulted both provincial governments in respect to the matter and they agreed that it would be wise on our part to change the leases, and we are therefore issuing twenty-one year leases in southern Saskatchewan and Alberta. North of the old pre-emption area we still issue the ten-year leases.


Neil Haman McTaggart: I take it that it is
the policy of the department to encourage the development of the private ranching industry?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Neil Haman McTaggart: Then is it the departmental policy to encourage the development of the community pasture idea?


Charles A. Stewart: That is an
entirely different matter. Community leases are granted by and under the control of the provincial government; they can handle the matter very much better than we can at this distance from the scene of operations. But reports are made on all these leases as they come up for renewal, and if it is thought desirable and companies can be organized, the province is ready to do it. But the federal authorities do not lease them in that way.


Neil Haman McTaggart: Then the department
does encourage the development of the community pasture idea?


Charles A. Stewart: We do not
interfere in the matter. If it is the desire of the provincial government that a private lessee shall be given a new lease and it is the intention to turn it into a community pasture, we leave it to the provincial government.


Neil Haman McTaggart: That comes under
the legislation passed two years ago?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Neil Haman McTaggart: It is my impression
that under that legislation it is necessary that the person enjoying the lease give notice to the provincial government of renewal or cancellation three years before the expiry of the lease.


Charles A. Stewart: It used to
be four years. Application for renewal is usually made a sufficient time ahead to

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410.1
maintain continuity. If the lease is to be cancelled the lessee ought to be notified in order that he may not suffer loss by the sudden termination of his lease. In fairness to him I think that ought to be done. It is when the renewal is about to be executed that the provincial governments are notified.


Neil Haman McTaggart: I bring this to the
attention of the minister because of the situation created in recent months in connection with the Big Stick forest reserve. At the time of the transfer of th.s reserve to the Timber and Grazing branch the various stockmen's associations in that reserve, rightly or wrongly, were under the impression that they were closely approximating the community pasture idea and that their application for leases in the reserve would receive favourable consideration at the hands of the department. There are a number of these stockmen's associations in the Big Stick forest reserve, and I am informed that at the time of the transfer, when notices were posted up in the reserve advising the lessees or permit holders that the reserve was to be taken over by the Timber and Grazing branch, it was understood that their applications would be given priority. I am not certain that that is so, but that has been represen;ed to me as being the case. Two at le^st of these associations, the Lems-ford stockmen's association and the Big Stick stockmen's association, made application to the department for the lands which they had formerly held under permit, but the application was not granted. I am not b'aming the departmental officials; I am making a study of the question at present, because a very difficult situation has arisen in this connection. When the inspector went on the ground to make an allotment of the various lands as between the different parties- who had made application for them, what was it he had in mind in the matter of departmental policy? Was he led to believe that that policy favoured the encouragement of the private rancher rather than the stockmen's associations or the community pasture idea? The inspector, by the way, was from Kamloops. Perhaps he had the wrong idea in his mind when he went out to make that inspection; perhaps he though* he was sent there by the department to the end that the private ranching industry might be encouraged rather thm the development of the community pasture idea. I would like to be satisfied on that point.


Charles A. Stewart: So far as
forest reserves are concerned we lease them more or less on the community basis. There
are private ranchers in forest reserves who have considerable areas under lease. Generally speaking, in order to satisfy that demand, wherever a foresit reserve is within a reasonable distance of a farming community we have encouraged the people to put their cattle in. Sometimes, of course, demands are made upon us that are embarrassing. Sometimes a rancher who has had a considerable area of forest reserve under lease for years feels that an injustice is done when he is forced to give up that area and the land is leased on a basis of so much per head of cattle.


Neil Haman McTaggart: The lands I refer to are not in the forest reserve; they are now under the Timber and Grazing branch


Charles A. Stewart: In this case is it a private owner who is given the preference?


Neil Haman McTaggart: Yes.


Charles A. Stewart: We are not in any way trying to discourage stockmen's associations; in fact, we rather encourage them. But it is difficult to undertake the responsibility of community grazing upon lands that are adapted for leasehold, and for the most part these lands are removed from the agricultural areas. However, I shall be glad to look into that matter. I think the hon. member has already brought it to my attention and I have had some investigations made. It would seem that some injustice was done there, because former leaseholders were deprived of improvements, and we ought to see if some adjustment could not be made to remedy that.


Neil Haman McTaggart: I am very glad to hear the minister make that statement, because a very undesirable situation has been created as a result, of the giving of these leases. This reserve lies in an ideal position for the development of the community pasture idea. To the east, to the west and to the north of this reserve there is splendid agricultural land, and these farmers will be unable to carry on on a mixed farming basis, that is, they will be unable to carry any quantity of stock, unless they have access to this area. The area is known as the Great Sand Hills, and it is not fit for anything but frazing. It is an area about forty miles long and perhaps twenty-five miles wide, and is a splendid area for the development of this idea. I have been very sorry to note that these associations, some of which have been carrying on for a number of years, have felt
Supply-Interior

recently that they have not been given a square deal in the granting of leases by the timber and grazing branch, and I should be very glad indeed if the minister would undertake to have this matter straightened out.


George Gibson Coote: Cam the minister tell us
whether the twenty-ome-year leases are being granted only in the icase of leases which are expiring, or in the ease of leases which have still some years to run?


Charles A. Stewart: At the .moment we are considering every application that oomes in to us from that particular area.


George Gibson Coote: I would suggest to the minister thait to me it does not seem quite fair for the Dominion government to do 'that, because I understand that at the present time negotiations are being carried on with the province Of Alberta, particularly, for the return of their natural resources, and one of .the natural resources which would be of considerable value to them is these grazing lands.


Charles A. Stewart: They will
all go over ito them.


George Gibson Coote: It does seem to ime that the provincial government should not be handicapped with twenty-one-year leases on so much of these leased lands in view of the fact that the natural resources may be soon returned to the provinces. Has the minister consulted the provincial government at all in that regard?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, with
both governments, and I did1 receive a letter from the Minister of Agriculture in Alberta suggesting that in view of the fact that the natural resources might foe returned to them, while he had no .objection to twenty-ome-year leases, he voiced the opinion that perhaps it would be well to delay in this matter, but inasmuch .as no particular objection was taken to the granting of twenty-one-year leases, and as the stock men in Saskatchewan were being granted this privilege by the Saskatchewan government, I felt that it was unfair to hold up these ranchers in Alberta, who are all in one organization, and I am therefore issuing the twenty-one-year leases. I frankly confess I bad no opposition to this idea except for the statement I have mentioned, that in view of the fact that alt some early date the natural resources might be turned over to the provinces, it might be well to delay in (this matter.


George Gibson Coote: The minister does not feel that the ranchers would be held up at all if

they were given ten-year leases, as has been done in the past?


Charles A. Stewart: I think I am safe in saying, and I think my hon. friend will agree with me, that cattle raising in western Canada is in a pretty critical .condition today, and has been for some time, and unless some .relief is given to our Icattle raisers in Alberta and Saskatchewan, in the southern areas of [those provinces, there is going to be a large number of failures among them. That was my reason for granting these leases, in order that if at all possible we might save that industry, because it is a very important industry throughout that area.
IMr. KENNEDY (Edmonton): Would the minister apply the same policy to northern Alberta ?


Charles A. Stewart: That is
vastly different. In most .oases where there are ranchers .in northern. Alberta, perhaps a demand imiay be made in, the very near future for those lands for agricultural .purposes, but that as not the case in the southern portion of the province. 'I am: prepared to take full responsibility, after some years of experience, and realizing the critical situation in which the stock raisers find themselves, for the increased tenure in these leases. I think it will result in a very great advantage to (the cattle raisers.


George Gibson Coote: The only reason I mention it is that it does seem to me, in view of the possibility of the natural resources being turned over to the provinces ait an early date, the ranchers would not have been left very long in suspense if it had 'been left for the province to deal with. I think it should have been left to the provinces to decide. I hope the Minister of the Interior will advise the Minister of Agriculture of the severe straits in which the mttLe men of western Canada are to-day. I agree with what the Minister of the Interior says about their position.
Can the minister tell the committee what area of these lands are under lease in Alberta and Saskatchewan, and what is the annual rental collected?


Charles A. Stewart: Grazing
leases?


George Gibson Coote: Yes.


Charles A. Stewart: I do not
know that I could give that in detail, but in the particular area in which the leases are to be issued I felt there should be a promise that these leases would be continued when the natural resources were turned over, because

Supply-Interior
I have gone into the thing so thoroughly, have discussed it with the financial institutions and with the ranchers themselves, and I realize full well the necessity for this change.


Neil Haman McTaggart: Can a lessee convert
his lease into a twenty-one-year lease? Say a lessee was holding at the present time a whole township of land, and his lease expires in four or five years, can he convert that lease into a twenty-one-year lease?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, unless
it is land that is liable to be useful for agricultural purposes, and always there must be inspection first. We do not grant these leases until after we have made a thorough investigation of all the circumstances in that particular area. There are some lands on which we would not grant a twenty-one-year lease, because they might be required for some other purpose, and in such cases the ten-year lease will remain in effect.


Neil Haman McTaggart: Would that prevent
residents in the district from joining together to take advantage of the proviso?


Charles A. Stewart: We are not issuing leases on agricultural land for that length of time. These are lands that for the most part have been leased for years. Take, for instance, the foothills in the territory represented by my hon. friend from Macleod (Mr. Coote), or the Galician district. There is a possibility of these lands being required for agricultural purposes in some places, but they are all within the pre-emption area, and perhaps in Saskatchewan the same thing applies. We propose making a very careful inspection of the whole situation.


Neil Haman McTaggart: There is another matter I desire to bring to the attention of the minister. There are a number of townships along the border which have been set aside as quarantine townships. There are two such townships in the vicinity of what is known as West Poplar, which is a customs port between the United States and Canada. I happened to go through that quarantine section a year ago, and I want to call the minister's attention to what I found there. There is a road leading through West Poplar, which is about half a mile from the customs office, and I found that that road is practically impassable except in very dry weather in midsummer. There is an old river bed very close to the boundary, and it is practically impossible for anyone to get across the line either coming from or going into the United States except in the dryest weather. I would urge very strongly upon the minister that if we desire to encourage traffic,
tourist traffic particularly, from the United States, something should be done to put that road into such shape that it could be used by automobiles. It would not require very much to make the road' passable, there is just the one crossing.


Charles A. Stewart: Does my
hon. friend mean that the federal government should do this?


Neil Haman McTaggart: Yes.


Charles A. Stewart: I am afraid we could not consider a proposition like that. The roads in all parts of the province are a provincial matter entirely.


Neil Haman McTaggart: But it is Dominion land.


Charles A. Stewart: I quite appreciate that, but we do not do anything towards maintaining the roads.


George Gibson Coote: I wonder if the minister is able to state the amount of leases?


Charles A. Stewart: The number of grazing leases in force during the year was 7,532 containing an area of 6,329,035 acres made up as follows: Manitoba 95,371 acres; Saskatchewan 3,012,037 acres; Alberta 2,870,957 acres; British Columbia 350,670 acres. Unfortunately I have not got the receipt for each province.


George Gibson Coote: Is the land leased at two cents per acre?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, this
land would be put up at two cents per acre


George Gibson Coote: I wonder if the minister could tell me how much of this land in Alberta would be leased for twenty-one years?


Charles A. Stewart: None of it at the moment. There are a considerable number of applications in and being dealt with, but we have not issued any leases so far as I am aware.


George Gibson Coote: Did the minister say that that only applied to the area south of township 16?


Charles A. Stewart: No, the old pre-emption area; it is township 30, I think. The old pre-emption area ran down to somewhere in the vicinity of the Calgary and Edmonton railway, but we have extended it to the foothills in the case of the area from which these leases would be granted.


George Gibson Coote: Could the minister say
whether there is any limit to the amount which one lease holder may secure from the government?
Supply-Interior


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


George Gibson Coote: What is that limit.


Charles A. Stewart: I think it was 12,000 acres, but I am inclined to the belief that we have increased that in some of the drier areas. It depends a good deal upon the locality.


George Gibson Coote: In the Porcupine hills would that be the 12,000 area?


Charles A. Stewart: I think so but I could not say definitely. That is a pretty good area.


George Gibson Coote: I should like to refer the minister to the case of the Glengarry lease at Claresholm. He will remember there was about one half, or a little more than one half, of that lease granted to Mr. Burns, or to the Burns company.


Charles A. Stewart: There is
much more than that, is there not, leased to private parties?


George Gibson Coote: I do not remember the exact details, but I want to remind the minister of one or two cases which I think were not fairly dealt with in that area, particularly the cases of Mr. Bolton and Mr. Anderson, as I remember the names now, although there were some others. In this case these men have been in that country a long time and have raised a lot of cattle, but I think neither of them has ever had a lease. When these men applied for a lease I do not think their application was given fair consideration.


Charles A. Stewart: Was not Mr. Bolton's case adjusted? He was to the north. I think he got the three quarter sections he wanted. Mr. Anderson's case was not settled; he was in the midtet of the ranching lands, if I remember.


George Gibson Coote: I would be very glad to
know that Mr. Bolton had been given three quarter sections. I know he applied for the section and three quarters immediately adjoining him. He pointed out to me that he had been in the country twenty-five years and had never had a foot of lease. Mr. Bums, I presume, had hundreds of thousands of acres of lease, and probably sold again at a profit. Many of the leases in western Canada have. been traded in, making very handsome profits for the holders of the leases. It is quite possible that some of this land that is being leased for twenty-one years will return a handsome profit to the holder before that time expires. When the twenty-one years are up the cattle industry will, we 
hope, be in a different position from what it is to-day. Before sitting, down I should like to ask if the minister would tell me how many leases have been turned over to the provincial governments for community leases, if any?


Charles A. Stewart: I think I
can tell my hon. friend from memory. There is only the Matador lease in Saskatchewan, and one in Alberta. I am not sure that it was not a portion of the Glengarry, that lease that was opened but never taken up. I know of no other application in Alberta.


George Gibson Coote: I should like to say that I think the Glengarry lease was not very suitable, for community pasture.


Charles A. Stewart: That was
not the answer that was made to me.


George Gibson Coote: Perhaps the people did not desire this for community lease anyway. But I think it might have divided up among the people living in the district. I should like the minister to look into the case of Mr. Anderson about whom I have already spoken to him. I think Mr. Anderson is surrounded on three sides by this ranch. I really think he should be given that section of the lease, and hope the minister will see if that could not be arranged even yet, because I do not think the best disposition was made of the land in the first instance.


Charles A. Stewart: I know that Mr. Anderson's case was taken up with Mr. Burns. I think the latter now has only six sections left of the old lease. The balance- the Glengarry ranch-of course he bought and owns outright, but he has been fairly generous in giving out that lease to those-surrounding him. My recollection now is that there is only twenty-five per cent of that lease left. However, I wi'l be very glad to see what I can do-and I think Mr. Burns will also-to encourage Mr. Anderson. At all events Mr. Burns promised me he would endeavour to give him some relief by way of more land adjoining his holdings there.


George Gibson Coote: I do not want to be misunderstood in regard to this case of Mr. Bums. As I understand it. the department rea'ly cancelled the lease and afterwards reinstated the old company in a part of it. I think that when they had once cancelled the lease those living in the vicinity who had made application should have had the first opportunity of securing leases.

Supply-Interior


Charles A. Stewart: My hon.
friend is wrong about that. The lease was opened for community grazing purposes to the government of Alberta. I was not just sure about the lease but my hon. friend confirms my statement in regard to it. It was in the hands of the Alberta government for some considerable time for the purpose of community grazing. Then Mr. Burns having purchased the Glengarry ranch made application for the unappropriated portions of the lease and received them under lease in that way.


George Gibson Coote: As I understand it from the department, Mr. Burns secured his lease by assignment from the old holders of the lease, the old Glengarry Ranch Company. But their lease had been cancelled; if it had not been the land could not have been offered for *community grazing. When it was not desired for community pasture then the applicants living in the immediate vicinity should have been taken care of, and I anj glad to say some of them were. About one-half of the land was divided up amongst these applicants.


Charles A. Stewart: More than that.


George Gibson Coote: It seems to me the department rather exceeded their authority, in recognizing an assignment from the company that had previously held the lease. The lease had been cancelled, so what interest that company had to assign I have never been able to figure out. I think the proper policy for the department to have pursued would have been to take into consideration all the applications that were made by residents in that vicinity, because some of those people are so badly in need of pasture that even a quarter section of lease would be much appreciated.


Edward Joseph Garland: What reductions have taken place in the number of the outside service? I notice there is some reduction in the amount of money asked for this year for staff salaries.


Charles A. Stewart: We had 260 last year and we have 246 this year under this item. That is a reduction of fourteen.


Edward Joseph Garland: What posi- * tions were done away with, land inspectors or what?


Charles A. Stewart: Some in each class. It is very difficult for me to give my hon. friend details of the actual positions that are done away with. The Dominion
Lands service extends over the whole three prairie provinces and the British Columbia belt.


Edward Joseph Garland: Were any land inspectors let out?


Charles A. Stewart: Four.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dominion Lands contingencies, etcetera, $175,000.
Leland Payson Bancroft: I should like to ask the minister to modify the regulations a little in order to allow a certain type of settler to homestead the second time. There is a district between lake Winnipeg and lake Manitoba in Manitoba that was settled up some years ago by immigrants who were brought in from Scandinavia and central Europe. While the great majority of them got very good land, in some cases they got land that is not fit for agricultural purposes at all. This was all bush country and while there was wood on the land, these men were able to make a living by cutting and selling it every year. But now the wood is practically gone and it is impossible for them to make a living there. During last winter, after a crop failure in that district, many of them would have starved had it not been for relief that was granted to them by the municipalities and the provincial government. The reason I am asking for special consideration for these men is that they did not homested in the regular way. Those of us who have homesteaded know and the minister knows that you go and select your land and take your chance. It is up to you. These immigrants could not talk English and the land was selected for them. The departmental officials took them around and said: This is your land; this is your quarter section, and so on. They were not allowed the privilege of selecting their own land. Probably they could not have made a better job under the circumstances, not knowing the country and not being able to speak English, but the point is that they are not in the same position as a man who goes out and selects his homestead. The land they got turned out afterwards to be totally unsuitable for agriculture. Incidentally, I may say that some of that land has been sold to soldier settlers in that district and that is one reason why I have been pressing as hard as I can for revaluation in that section. These settlers should be allowed to homestead again where it is known that the land they are on is absolutely unsuitable for agricultural purposes. The homestead inspectors in that part of the country know what quarter sections
Supply-Interior

come under that class. The land agent at Winnipeg, I am sure, will know it. Anyone connected with the work will know where the unsuitable quarter sections are, and my suggestion is that the department might modify their regulations a little. I do not think it would involve any expense at all, and no one, I am sure, would object if these regulations were modified a little so that these men might be allowed to go somewhat further north and take up land that is really fit for agricultural purposes.


Charles A. Stewart: The hon.
member is asking something that is very difficult of accomplishment. I have had many requests for second homesteads, but this opens up a big question. I know there are many cases where this might result in keeping people in the country; but when you open up the consideration of the this question, you open up a pretty wide problem. We have done it in Saskatchewan and Alberta upon the recommendation and authority of the provincial government. Where a man was tried out for a series of years, made a failure and was desirous of settling in the northern portions of the province, if he was recommended by the provincial government, we met their request, not in very many instances, not as many as one would think. In some instances that has been done. Possibly something of the same kind could be done in Manitoba, but I have looked into the matter pretty thoroughly and a tremendous amount of difficulty is entailed. I think the leader of the opposition (Mr. Meighen) two years ago, when we were discussing this matter before, enumerated a number of the difficulties and pointed out how dangerous it would be to embark upon a policy of that kind. It might, however, be worked out in the way I have mentioned.


Leland Payson Bancroft: The minister surely
knows these are peculiar cases where immigrants who are unable to speak English are settled on land without being given any opportunity of selection at all. If the minister has ever been in that district, he will know my description of it is fairly accurate. The land after the bush is taken off is stony, scrub land, and the stones are coming up every year. You do not get rid of the stones by taking them off the top as in some districts. The soil is a very shallow loam on a gravelly subsoil, and it is absolutely unsuitable for farming operations. I am referring to certain ridges and there are not a great many cases. The minister states that this is not a new departure, and I am sure there is not a more deserving case in the whole of western Canada than the district of which I speak.


Charles A. Stewart: I shall be
glad to discuss the matter with the provincial authorities, if my hon. friend will interest them in the matter.


James Shaver Woodsworth: In endorsation of
what the hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. Bancroft) has said, I know that country and I believe a great deal of it ought never to have been homesteaded. Some of it is fit for cattle raising; it is not fit for grain growing, and yet these people were placed upon the land. Their children are spending half their time in picking up stones, and when they get the stones off there is nothing beneath that is worth cultivating. I also know, speaking of the cities, that many of these people, driven off these homesteads, are drifting back to the city of Winnipeg. We have them there, unaccustomed to work in the city, unemployed, and on the relief, whereas they came to this country with the earnest expectation of making good, and if they were given a chance in a new locality they would make good. It seems absolutely absurd to go to the ends of the earth in order to get more immigrants, while we have in Canada people who would make good if they were given a chance. I would urgently request, under these circumstances, that the suggestion made by the hon. member for Selkirk be carried out.


William John Ward: I support very strongly the
stand taken by the hon. member (Mr. Bancroft) ; I do not think that any more worthy suggestion has been made in this Hcuse. But I would not confine it to districts such as he has described. I believe that literally thousands of settlers who have left this country after becoming insolvent could have been retained if we had had some such policy as has been suggested. I do not underestimate the difficulties that might be encountered in evolving some new amendments tc- the Homestead Act which would implement this proposal. I have received this session a number of letters from observant business men in my con-sti uency who have watched the trend of events during a number of years, and they strongly urge upon me to make representations to the Minister- of the Interior in this regard. This I have done on one or two occasions; I have requested that this matter be considered. These farmers have become insolvent not always it is true, because they have been settled on a stone pile, but very frequently they have failed through no fault of their own and they have been forced to leave their farms. I think that they should be enabled to re-settle We must not forget that many of those settlers coming in from

Supply-Interior
elsewhere have been assimilated into the society of the country at great expense and now that they have grown accustomed to our ways and are used to our climate they would make much better settlers than new immigrants whom, as the 'hon. member has suggested, we may hunt out of the extreme ends of the earth. This is an important question and I would earnestly ask the minister to take it in'o his most serious consideration. We are passing through trying times and I hope that he will consider the question favourably.


William Garland McQuarrie: Will the minister give us the details of this item?


Charles A. Stewart: The details of this estimate are as follows:
1.	Expenses of 30 homestead appraisers, including purchase, renewals and repairs of travelling outfits, etc	 $60,000
2.	Expenses of 13 timber inspectors, including, as in the above item, purchase, renewals
and repairs of travelling outfits, etc.. ..	16,000
3. Expenses of 3 inspectors of ranches.. ..	6,000
4.	Expenses of 13 Dominion Lands and Crown
Timber agencies. These expenses consist in the payment of telegrams, telephones, commission and postage to sub-agents, clerical assistance of a temporary nature only, janitor service, etc	 27,000
5.	Travelling expenses of outside officials when
away on Government business, including Superintendent of Western Land agencies, assistant land agency inspectors, travelling auditor, etc	 24,000
6.	Printing and stationery. This item is to cover the cost of printed forms used in transacting public business, the purchase
and repairs of typewriters and for all stationery required in the Dominion land offices and sub-land offices	 25,000
7.	Advertising re sale of timber berths; also to cover accounts in connection with lands
open for entry, etc	 2,000
8.	Motor car service at Ottawa, including repairs to and renewals for trucks for delivery
of mail and files, minister's car, etc.. ..	5,000
9.	Miscellaneous; Freight and express charges,
telegrams, etc., paid at Ottawa, and for unforeseen expenses during	1925-1926	 10,000


William Garland McQuarrie: How much was spent
last year ?


Charles A. Stewart: I am sorry I cannot give the details for last year, but the year before we spent $160,740.05, and as my hon. friend will note we have reduced the estimate by $35,000 this year as compared with last year.


George Gibson Coote: How many homestead entries were there last year?


Charles A. Stewart: The report shows 3,855.


George Gibson Coote: Does the report show the
number cf abandonments?


Charles A. Stewart: No, they
drag on from year to year.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Has the minister any
record showing where the homesteads were taken in the different provinces?


Charles A. Stewart: I have not
that information by provinces but by land districts. They are as follows:
Manitoba-
Dauphin	 314
Winnipeg	 317
Saskatchewan-
Battleford	 159
Moose Jaw	 79
Prince Albert	 1,308
Saskatoon	 139
Swift Current	 13
Alberta-
Calgary	 147
Edmonton	 942
Grande Prairie	 94
Lethbridge	 21
Peace River	 142
British Columbia-
Kamloops	 78
New Westminster	 86
Revelstoke (6 months)	 16
Mr. 'SPENCER: Is the government giving any encouragement to homesteading in the Peace river district just now?


Leland Payson Bancroft: The minister said there were thirteen in Swift Current.


Charles A. Stewart: That was before the office was closed.


Leland Payson Bancroft: I was going to suggest that it should be closed.
Mr. 'GARLAND (Bow River):	What encouragement is the government giving to settlement in the Peace river district?


Charles A. Stewart: We are not giving any encouragement to homesteaders there.
Mr,. GARLAND (Bow River): The minister is right; the government is not giving any encouragement and the sooner we get a railway line there the better it will be.
IMr. SPENCER: Is it the intention of the government to stop sending settlers there until railway transportation is provided?


Charles A. Stewart: We 'cannot stop settlers from going.
Mr. CO'OTE: Has the government a land office in the Peace river area?
-Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil): Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
4in>
Supply-Interior
[Stage Direction]
Amount required to pay the fees of the Board of Examiners for D.L.S., of the secretary and of the subexam ners and for travelling expenses, stationery, printing rent of rooms and furniture, etc. (The fees of Messrs. J D. Craig. W. M. Tobey and Harry B. Parry, members of the board, and J. A. Cote, secretary, are to be paid out of this sum), $2,000.
Charles A. Stewart: Mr. Chairman, I want to substitute the name of Mr. F. H. Peters for that of Mr. J. D. Craig.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Why? Is not Mr. Craig the head of the branch?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, but he has recently been appointed director general Mr. Peters is now in charge of this particular work.


George Gibson Coote: Where are the examinations
held?


Charles A. Stewart: At various
points in the Dominion.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To assist in publishing the transactions of the Association of Dominion Land Surveyors, $125.
William Garland McQuarrie: Why is this necessary?


Charles A. Stewart: This has
been an annual grant for I do not know how long to assist the surveyors' association to publish the papers read at their annual meeting.


William Garland McQuarrie: Why should we assist the Dominion land surveyors?


Charles A. Stewart: Well, much the same as we assist the Alpine and other associations with a very small grant. It has been made for a great number of years, and I have not thought it wise to strike it out.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Protection of timber, tree culture, inspection and management of forest reserves, surveys of forest resources and research in forestry and forest products, etc., $1,185,000.
George Gibson Coote: Will the minister give us
some details of how this money is spent?


Charles A. Stewart: We find ourselves very badly handicapped this year in connection with publicity work. A very large proportion of the losses of our forest wealth occurs through carelessness, and we find one of the most effective ways of arousing public opinion to the necessity of forest conservation is by advertising and by co-ordinating the efforts of the provincial forestry associations and their officials. I tried to persuade the newspapers that this publicity was in the interests of a very great national asset, but they insist on treating it as advertising matter.
fMr. G. k. Stewart.]


George Gibson Coote: Is it not also in the interests of the newspapers themselves in perhaps keeping down the cost of newsprint?


Charles A. Stewart: I thought
so, but they do not agree.		This is	the information desired:			
	Estimates	Estimates	
	1925-26	1924-25	Increase
	45 000	45,000	
Publicity	8.000	5,000	3 000Save-the-forest week..	7.000	5.000	2,000Emergency fire fund..	25.000	25.000	Surveys and research..	50,000	45,000	5,000Forest products laboratories :	(a) Montreal	103.500	103.000	500(b) Vancouver	28.900	22.500	6.400Tiee planting	75,600	74,500	1,100Forest reserves and fire ranging:	Manitoba	175.000	170.000	5.000Saskatchewan	221.300	220,000	1.300Alberta and British	Columbia	445,700	435.000	10,700There are slight	increases	right down the	line. We are trying to keep this	vote asmoderate as possibl	e. but there is no	doubt inmy mind that we	are not	spendin	* nearlyenough on the preservation	of our forest	
wealth, and if I thought we could afford it I would ask the committee for twice this amount.


Edward Joseph Garland: I agree with the minister that there are few more important matters than the conservation of our forest wealth, but may I suggest to him that a good deal of the loss in the past has been due to improper cutting by the big lumber barons? Is the minister taking any steps to prevent that loss in the future by inserting proper restrictions in the new timber leases?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes. It is difficult to secure a uniform policy because the older provinces control their resources, although I do not mean to imply that the provincial authorities are not alive to the importance of the situation.


Edward Joseph Garland: What is the minister doing?


Charles A. Stewart: We are endeavouring to arouse public opinion to a realization of our great heritage in forest wealth, and we are trying to conserve that wealth by adopting the most modern methods of conservation in cutting.	For instance,
under the lease which we are granting for a pulpwood berth in Manitoba the Forestry branch will control the cutting with the view of maintaining a perpetual supply of pulpwood for the mill which is to be constructed there.

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The company will also have to adopt proper conservation methods for taking care of the brush and slash to prevent destruction by fire. We are doing the same thing in many of our present day leases, but, as I say, it is difficult to secure uniform regulations because we have not absolute control of the situation throughout the Dominion. One of the objections raised in this matter is that if the restrictions imposed are too onerous the competition of others who do not have to submit to such restrictions becomes serious. However, we are determined that we shall work into modem conservation methods in the cutting of our timber.


Edward Joseph Garland: Unless the minister takes a strong attitude in this matter, all this money will be wasted. One of the greatest sources of loss is the utterly brutal, indiscriminate cutting of timber by our timber kings. They do not care what they do; they go in and smash and slash and cut off, profit being their primary object.


Mr. POWER:: May I ask in what part of
the country this indiscriminate cutting takes place?


Edward Joseph Garland: I venture
to say there is not a single lumber king in the whole of Canada who is not guilty of it.


Charles Gavan Power: Is the hon. member not
aware that New Brunswick, Quebec and Ontario have very strict regulations with regard to diameter limit, and so on, and doe3 he not think that those provinces are in a position to have their laws obeyed and do have them obeyed?


Edward Joseph Garland: We are discussing matters of federal policy, not provincial.


Charles Gavan Power: I asked the hon. gentleman in what part of the country this indiscriminate cutting went on, and he said all over the country.


Edward Joseph Garland: Yes, and I do not think that is very far from the truth.


Charles Gavan Power: If the hon. gentleman does
not know, he should not say so.


Edward Joseph Garland: I repeat
that unless the minister is determined to take the strong stand which he declares for tonight, and in which I agree with him most heartily, it will be practically useless to spend this sum of money. I think he is going in the right direction; he has the right idea. It is only a question of a stiff backbone and good support from his own government.


James Shaver Woodsworth: The minister has
suggested that when timber limits were privately owned the Dominion government could not very well interfere. Now, I may have my own house, but the fire chief will come round, go down into my basement and see whether there is any rubbish there; he may go into all the conditions from the point of view of fire prevention, determine in what state I shall keep my back yard, and so on. It seems to me that whether or not these limits are privately owned the Dominion government has a right to prescribe certain regulations with regard to the manner in which the cutting must go on. I know best of the operations carried on in British Columbia. One cannot visit a logging camp there without recognizing that there is a very constant fire hazard in the immense amount of brush and slash that is left about; in fact the greater part of the country that has been logged over exhibits that condition. Is it not possible to provide detailed regulations with regard to cutting, even on private landb, just as restrictions regarding private property are imposed in our large cities?


Charles A. Stewart: I hope what I said did not create any false impression. Amendments are constantly being made to the timber regulations by all the provinces. We have conferences at Ottawa at which the regulations are discussed, and uniformity throughout Canada has now been practically secured. As to the province of Quebec, I do not think that any other province has made greater strides in forest conservation There is no doubt that cases of gross negligence can be found throughout the country and that many fire hazards are permitted to exist, but you cannot clear them all up at once. We are just beginning to awaken to a realization of the danger and of the necessity of suppressing fires. But I think we are making very rapid progress in this direction and that uniformity in administration will be brought about by the conferences to which I have referred.


Edward Joseph Garland: I am afraid the hon. member (Mr. Power) may have gained a wrong impression from my remarks. I want to indicate at least that I have some practical knowledge of what I am talking about. On the eastern slopes of the Rocky mountains I worked for some time in the lumber 'camps, and not far from the present Black Diamond oil fields I saw them cut timber that should never have been cut, the ground that was cut over being left in a disgraceful condition.
REVISEn EDITION
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Charles Gavan Power: That has probably happened in all provinces, contrary to the regulations.


George Gibson Coote: Is this amount spent solely for the protection of the Dominion's own forests?
(Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil): Yes, with the exception of the publicity and research votes.


George Gibson Coote: Alberta and British Columbia are given together in this item. I suppose most of that is spent in British Columbia?
Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil)): I am told that $280,000 is spent in Alberta.


Arthur Edward Ross: What .particular research work is being carried on in this department?


Charles A. Stewart: We are
carrying on experimental work or research work at Petawawa, Ontario, and in New Brunswick, Quebec and the western provinces. It is very largely an attempt to discover the best methods of enicouraging the natural forest growth.
(Mr. ROSS (Kingston): Has any effort been made to replant large areas that have been cleaned off completely by lumber companies?


Charles A. Stewart: No, we are doing very little of that. We do not need to do very much in the way of tree planting, because if protection is given to the natural growth it will come up well and even in time need some thinning. In almost every part of Canada the natural growth will come right away if it 'is protected from fire. ThaJt is the biggest menace we have.
Mr. MloTAGGART: How many forest reserves are there in the province of Saskatchewan, and where are they located?


Charles A. Stewart: There are fourteen, as follows: Moose Mountain, Beaver hills, Porcupine, Pasquia, Fort a la Come, Nisbet, Pines, Sturgeon, Big river, Keppel, Dundum, Seward, Elbow and Manitou.


Henry Elvins Spencer: I wish to congratulate the minister on the excellent work he is doing to conserve our forests. Of the large amount that is being voted here I understand that a lot is being spent on research work at Montreal. What research work would this be?


Charles A. Stewart: The principal work carried on in the laboratory at Montreal is in connection with the development of the pulp and paper industry. One problem in particular which I might mention is the separation of the resin from jack pine. 
As my hon. friend knows the resin makes the jack pine useless for the pulp and paper industry. We have large areas of jack pine in Canada which could be used in this industry when that problem is solved. That is just one of the experiments that are being carried on. Then there is also timber testing, and research work in connection with preservatives for wood, and various matters of that kind.


Henry Elvins Spencer: I notice that $75,000 is being spent on tree planting. Is that done in the three prairie provinces and in part of British Columbia?


Charles A. Stewart: It is all in the prairies, I am told. One of the stations is at Sutherland, and the other at Indian Head.
Mr, SPENCER: These are for the free distribution of trees?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Is there not an item of this nature under the Department of Agriculture too?


Charles A. Stewart: Not that I know of.


Mr. SPEAKMAN:: Last year under this item I discussed with the minister the question of a road to Nordegg, which lies within the Rocky Mountain reserve in Alberta. I pointed out then that the difficulty in constructing a road to that point lay in the fact that part of the road would come under provincial jurisdiction while the remainder, some twenty miles within the forest reserve, would be rather within federal jurisdiction. The minister indicated-at that time that he would be willing to discuss the matter with provincial authorities to see if some arrangement could be arrived at. I would be glad to learn if that discussion took place, and what decision, if any, was arrived at.


Charles A. Stewart: I am sorry to say that with the exception of a mere mention of the matter at Edmonton I did not follow it up. When on a visit to the provincial government of Alberta I did mention the fact that there appeared to be a demand for communication from the Nordegg mines outward, but I regret to say I did not fdllow the matter up further than that rather desultory conversation on that occasion. However, I shall be glad to take the matter up again. I would say, however, that I fear we

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would not be warranted in making a very much bigger expenditure than for the construction of a trail for our own forestry people, which would not, of course, provide adequate facilities for automobiles or horse traffic.


Alfred Speakman: I appreciate the difficulty in that regard, and I am not urging this with particular force on that account. I realize that it is somewhat out of the line of ordinary expenditure under this item. I did discuss the matter with the minister last year, and as he is familiar with it, I shall . not discuss it further now except to point out again the great disability under which a community of some fifteen hundred or two thousand people lie when they have no communication with the outer world except by railway, and the great advantage it would be to them, as well as to the farming district lying [DOT] east of that territory, if some road communication could be provided that would enable the people of Nordegg-I have that town in mind particularly because it is the one large town, comparatively speaking-to purchase their supplies of farm produce from the farm district lying fairly adjacent to it. I do not intend to discuss this matter at any length, because the minister is familiar with the circumstances, but I would be glad if he would remember when the opportunity arises again to take it up and see if anything possibly could be done under this item. I am quite sure that it would be money well spent, and the expenditure would be greatly appreciated by a very large community.


William Charles Good: I think there is no more important work being carried on by the Dominion government than this work of forest conservation. I am greatly pleased to hear the minister state that if he had the money he would recommend a vote twice as large for this purpose. I am very much surprised, however, that he has* not succeeded, or at all events tried to secure for this purpose a little slice of that $5,000,000 that went to Quebec harbour. One-fifth of that amount would go a long way toward carrying out this exceedingly important work throughout the Dominion. I hope that on some future occasion the minister will be more successful in securing part of this money that flows in some directions so freely.


Charles Gavan Power: In order to obtain some
benefit from this work, this timber must be shipped from somewhere, and you must equip the port of Quebec in order to ship it.


William Charles Good: That raises another question, and I shall not deal with it at the moment. I might remark, however, that there does not seem to be any difficulty so far in connection with facilities for shipping lumber from Quebec.
In regard to the destruction from fire, that seems to be the most important aspect of this question. I came through a section of the province of Quebec about two years ago, on the south side of the St. Lawrence from Quebec to Montreal, and I was astounded at the destruction of forest in that territory at that time. For nearly the whole distance, or the greater part of it, we were passing through a dense cloud of smoke and blackened timber everywhere. That seemed to me very strange in that part, which I thought one of the best settled and the best protected parts of the province of Quebec. Those who have passed thro'ugh that great stretch of territory north of lake Superior and in northern Quebec will realize the tremendous destruction from fire, and I do hope the minister will devote all he can secure to this particular purpose. I would be very glad indeed to support a larger vote for this purpose. I do think, as I pointed out a few minutes ago, that there are other savings that could be effected which would enable us to vote a larger amount of money for this extremely valuable work,


Edward Joseph Garland: Does the
air protective service come under this vote?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


Edward Joseph Garland: The preamble of this vote declares that it is for surveys of forest resources, and so forth. I raised the question this afternoon when we were discussing the item of topographical surveys just what was covered by these surveys
of forest resources. By whom are they carried out, and what do they cover?


Charles A. Stewart: That is the definition of cruising; it is done to ascertain the quantity of timber.


Edward Joseph Garland: Is it not
true that a good deal of that cruising can now be eliminated by the use of the photographic maps prepared by the topographical branch?


Charles A. Stewart: No, this is
to ascertain the quantities of timber. The aerial service indicates where the timber is to be had.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Is this survey being done in the three prairie provinces or in all the provinces?
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Charles A. Stewart: Just in
those provinces where we own the timber.


Henry Elvins Spencer: I take it they all do a certain amount of research work?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Does their work in any way overlap the work done by the federal government?


Charles A. Stewart: No, I can
assure my hon. friend of that.


George Gibson Coote: Do we get any revenue out of these forests where we have to pay for fire protection?


Charles A. Stewart: No, I do
not think we get any very great amount of revenue.


George Gibson Coote: We do not get sufficient to pay for the cost of fire protection?


Charles A. Stewart: I could give my hon. friend the details of the revenue from the Forestry branch. The statement does not include the timber berths proper.
The details are as follows:
Timber sales	
$124,528	30Timber fees and dues	
35,628	94Timber seizures	
1,331	18Grazing permits and trespass dues.	27,535	49Hay permits and seizures	
1,746	65Surface rights	
3,590	32Special uses	
3,751	76Unclassified	
12,766	10Pine thinnings	
571	65Laboratory tests	
448	00Nursery stock (Indian	Head).. ..	2,877	00


George Gibson Coote: I think one of the necessary things in any fire protection policy in a national sense is to devise means, if possible, whereby those who are cutting the timber should pay enough to this country to cover our expenditure for fire protection. I quite realize that is not possible at the present time, but I think the government might do something towards collecting a little more from those who are cutting the timber so that the cost may be more nearly met by the receipts from the sales of timber. Just before the item passes, I should like to bring to the attention of the minister the case of a forest ranger living on Willow Creek, Alberta. This man, I think, is located about ten miles from the nearest telephone, and it seems to me to be foolish economy to have a forest ranger where he is without a telephone. His home is a long way from any neighbours, and if he did discover a fire it would take him quite a while to notify anybody in order to secure help. He does not even have a 
radio set, I understand, by which he could receive messages. I think it would be very good policy on the part of the government to eXtehd a line and put a telephone into that forest ranger's house. Altogether aside from that consideration I do not think it is quite fair to the ranger to -keep him living there alone without a telephone, because in case of accident or sickness, he might die from want of assistance. Any number of poles could be obtained from the government forest reserves for the extension of this line, and it would not cost much to place a telephone in the man's house. I do not know whether there are many other rangers who do not have telephone connection, but it does seem to me that all these men should have that convenience.


William Charles Good: In regard to the research
work being carried on in the laboratories in connection with our pulp and paper industry, are any of the services paid for by the industry or are they all given free?


Charles A. Stewart: We do receive something from the pulp and paper men. We are now using $20,000 from that association.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
For investigations of water and power resources, including the Dominion hydrometric survey and for the administration of the Dominion Water Power, Irrigation and Reclamation Acts, $500,000.
Henry Herbert Stevens: On this item I want to
bring up once again the question of the alienation of water-power in Spray lakes, Banff park to other than the Dominion government. The minister and the committee will recall that this subject was up in previous sessions. I think the minister was good enough to assure the committee last year that nothing would be done during the year, and I think that as far as he is concerned he has kept faith with the House in that regard. I understand, however, that engineers have been in that district looking it over on behalf of the provincial government and on behalf of a power company. The minister undoubtedly will be ready to give to the House a complete statement of the standing of this important question. It is not my intention to delay the committee to-night by speaking at any length. However, I am going to ask the minister to give us a very frank statement on the subject, and I want to take the opportunity to say this: in my estimation no portion of these national sparks should be parted with except with the consent of parliament. That I lay down as a principle which I think

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should be observed. Then, in regard to the granting of power leases in the parks, I again say that the subject should be discussed in parliament before they are granted. In saying this I am not expressing any distrust of the minister and of his officials, because in the ordinary treatment of the applications in other parts of the Dominion lands I have no criticism whatever, and I am making no criticism, of the manner of administration.
I am speaking now of the parks set aside and belonging in a peculiar manner to the people at large. They should be kept inviolate and sacred in the interests of the people. I have had a good deal of correspondence on this matter. I am interested myself in the National Parks Association. I attended their annual meeting last January, I think it was, and I have in my hands the reports of this association. It is a highly disinterested body-when I say disinterested I am speaking, of course, from a commercial or personal standpoint-of citizens whose sole object is to conserve to the people their right in these splendid national parks. I do not know of anything that should be more carefully guarded than those great national playgrounds. I think too often the impression is given that these are useful to or used only by wealthy people. That is not the case. They are the natural playgrounds of the poor and the rich and we should be very careful of the rights of all. If the minister would be good enough to give us a frank statement of how the matter stands, I will reserve the right of saying a few words more if the occasion demands it. I want to assure the minister that it is not my desire to delay the passage of his estimates, because I know he has had a very hard day, he has worked hard and he has treated the committee in an exceptionally courteous manner. I do not wish to harass him at all, but this is too important a matter to allow it to pass without very careful consideration.


Charles A. Stewart: I confess that I have had some difficulty in my mind with respect to this very important development. I will try to cover it as quickly as I can. In the province of Alberta from which the National Park reserve is taken there is not very much chance for power development. The head waters of the Bow river, the head waters of the Saskatchewan and the head waters of the Smoky are about the only chances for development of that character in the province. Naturally, we have many people who look upon the possibilities of
power development with somewhat envious eyes. Perhaps we have been sinners ourselves to some extent, inasmuch as at Minnewanka permission was given some years ago to the Calgary Power Company to develop power by the creation of a reservoir at Minnewanka lake. We ourselves 'have developed there a certain percentage of horse power for lighting the municipality of Banff and for our park purposes. Rightly or wrongly, the Calgary Power Company have had a grievance, either supposed or otherwise, that they were not permitted to develop Minnewanka lake to the extent that they thought desirable. That has been opposed by the park authorities and I may say frankly that I have opposed it myself. After visiting the lake and seeing the situation there, the location of the road which is only about six miles from Banff, the very centre of tourist activities, I did not think it wise that that lake should be raised to any higher level which would result in a very large fluctuation of depth in the lake and, perhaps, make it present during the tourist season an unsightly shore line if the water happened to be at a low level. I mention this in order to give the committee a picture of the difficulties of the Spray lakes' situation. The Spray lakes are located about eighteen miles from Banff. They are the headwaters of the Spray river, where there is a tremendously large valley through which the road leads up to Mount Assiniboine and where you can get a splendid view of the mountains and see some very interesting scenery. I visited that area, and the development, if it were granted, would mean that the water level would be raised in those lakes, which are now a series of three rather small lakes as mountain lakes go, but rather picturesque, to 176 feet, the flooding of a valley twelve miles long and cutting through the mountain of a tunnel to bring the water from this huge reservoir into the Bow river where it could be utilized for the second time by the existing power plant of the Calgary Power Company. My opinion is very mixed about the matter. If a reservoir of that kind were created and it were a success, possibly it would not present any serious difficulty from: a scenic standpoint, inasmuch as it would be filled up before the tourist season started. But, speaking as a layman, after looking the situation over, I have very grave doubt whether they have water enough to fill the place. There is not a very large stream flowing out of it It is the head waters of
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the Spray river. Engineers, however, have assured me that it can be filled and you would get a tremendous power development which would serve the existing municipalities of Alberta as far north as Edmonton.


Henry Herbert Stevens: This is not the only power available for that vast area of Alberta, is it?


Charles A. Stewart: Practically, yes. It is the only available source of power for large development. Other possibilities have been surveyed and turned down by the engineers of the company, reinspected by our engineers and turned for the same reasons. No one loves the grandeur of mountain scenery more than I do and I do not want to see it disturbed. I even go almost to the extent of refusing to build automobile roads in order that nature may be seen as nature was intended to be seen from horseback or on foot, and in that way, perhaps, we can save some park expenditure. That is what we are endeavouring to do in the development of Jasper, as the construction of motor roads through the park is sometimes pretty expensive work. But having in mind the cheap power and the distance that this is removed from the centre of the tourist traffic, being eighteen miles from Banff, I have a very mixed opinion about the matter, and now I am in receipt of a request from Alberta on behalf of the province for a license to develop this power. Having in mind the statement I made in the House last session that before any concession was granted this matter would receive very full and frank discussion in the House. I have not considered the granting of this license. The request is in my office awaiting action on the part of the Department of the Interior. Having also in mind the very large coal deposits that we have in Alberta, and wishing, I think, further exploration by our fuel board and by others interested. I believe it will, perhaps, develop that by the cheap, easy methods by which we can produce the fuel, we can burn it at the pit mouth, saving transportation costs, and transport electricity over the wires as is the case in waterpower development. On the other hand, I dislike holding up a request from a province, and I want to say, in fairness to the committee and to parliament, I would rather that parliament would take the responsibility of passing upon this question either by a vote or otherwise and settle the matter. I hesitate to take the responsibility of passing upon a question of this kind without having parliament pass upon it. That is my position.
	.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I am glad to hear the
minister give expression to the last few sentences in particular. I would suggest that all national parks be declared as such and that, except for such minor privileges as the freedom to vend ice cream and other refreshments of that kind in these parks, they shall not be alienated nor shall any rights or privileges in any portion of them be conceded except by act of parliament. In other words, there should be declared in Canada a policy ia relation to our national parks which will preserve them from any alienation or interference of any sort. If the minister would take that stand now and amend the Dominion Lands Act, or whatever statute deals with the matter, to provide for a policy of this kind, it would be an excellent thing. In that case there would have to be submitted to parliament any application that might be made such as the one now mentioned. Far be it from me to offer any resistance to the reasonable request of any province for any concession in connection with Dominion property. That I would hesitate to do. But on this question I am very much in earnest, because I apprehend that if we give way to the province of Alberta in this particular application we shall simply open the door to all manner of applications that might come from various parts of Canada affecting any of our national parks. A couple of years might go by and the Alberta application be forgotten; and then would come one from British Columbia perhaps, or from Ontario, or perhaps one from some railway or steamship company. We might have innumerable applications from these and other sources for apparently minor privileges or concessions and very soon we should find our national parks broken up under a varied control and invaded by divers interests. That is why we should formulate some definite policy such as I understand prevails in the great national parks to the south of us. In the United States, if my information is correct, a policy is in force under which no concessions are granted at all within national park areas; and they are now enlarging the federal control, limiting in some of their areas the practices of citizens, the prices that may be charged for certain services, and so forth, to prevent the exploitation of the public. All these things are being carefully guarded, as they should be. Our parks are not only great play-grounds, but they may become a splendid revenue producer for the people of Canada. We have no objection to tourists enjoying them; indeed, we welcome them provided the tourists respect our pro-

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perty, as most of them do. But this very sacred right of the people in these great national play-grounds, which will become more and more valuable yearly and less capable of being restored if they are destroyed, should be definitely fixed now. I would therefore again appeal to the minister to take action in this matter. I referred to this matter a year ago, and I do think that this invasion of our national parks should be held off until such a policy as I have suggested is definitely decided upon so that parliament may deal with any applications that may be made. I appeal to the minister with confidence, for I think that both his heart and his mind are inclined to respond to the appeal.
.Mr. SHAW: With imuch of what the hon. member (Mr. Stevens) has said, I find mo objection. We Should inaugurate a definite parks policy for the preservation of our parks and for their maintenance as far las possible in the natural state. Bult there arises one difficulty which we must not overlook, and that for reasons which have never been satisfactorily explained so far as I know. There is I think something over 9,000 square miles of parks in Alberta, practically all along the eastern fringe of the Rocky mountains, and this national park area was established 1 believe largely for the purpose of creating a forest reserve. It was not because the scenic beauity of that area was of such great value that it had to be preserved intact for generations to come; the fact is that large portions of it are wholly unfit fflam this point of view. Now, the first thing that we should do is to make a careful survey and select those portions of the present established park areas which are suitable iprimanily for parks, and properly safeguard them, so that no disposition shail be made of any concessions therein without the consent oif parliament. The request of my hon. friend in this regard is reasonable; I know that is the plolicy of which the National Barks Association approves. But in this vast area of national parks in western Canada there are at .present great coal deposits -and perhaps vast mineral deposits as well. Is thiait entire area to be preserved intact without development of any kind? It seems to me that such a .policy is neither wise nor desirable. I think the first thing we should do is to carefully selelct our park areas and see that they are maintained.
With regard to the Calgary power proposition, one cannot deny that the area, so far as the lakes are concerned, is of considerable scenic value. And I do not think there would be any dffi-culity in duplicating the Spray
lakes in a dozen different places in Albewta. I have had the privilege of visiting this area two years in succession, last year and the year before; and in order to have my opinion confirmed I had the pleasure of going up with the hon. member for Bow River (Mr. -Garland) last year. But a large portion of the area has been burned over, and the whole extent of it is a splendid indication of what can 'be done by irresponsible logging companies. It has all been lumbered and slashed and the whole area has been burned over, so that from the standpoint of attractiveness its value is practically insignificant except for the lakes. I am not so sure that the flooding of a large portion of that area would not make it a great deal -more valuable from the scenic standpoint than it is to-day. If there is a possibility of waterpower development in this area I see no reason why the province of Alberta should not be given the right, if it so desires, to secure that privilege; but I would first see to it that the .park area was selected. This -commercial section is not especially valuable for scenic purposes and at least a considerable portion of it could be taken out of the park area,. I see no reason why the Spray lakes area should be preserved for its scenic value, because to be frank it has very little apart from the lakesand I think most -people who have been -in that area will agree with what I say. I h-ave pleasure in seconding the remarks of the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens). We should establish a definite park policy at the earliest possible date, under which there would -be no encroachment for commercial purposes, save only with the sanction o-f this parliament.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Mr. Chairman,
under this item I should like to make a few remarks with regard to the more general question of water-powers. The member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) has made' a plea for the sacred rights of the people in our national playgrounds. I should like to urge the sacred rights of the people in the water-powers of this country. At the present time in Great Britain and throughout a good part of the continent they are taking very great care of their water-powers, they are beginning to realize that in view of the electrical development that is going on these are invaluable and ought to foe preserved to the state as a national asset, not to be alienated. In the United States we have learned through other debates in this House that a good deal has been said about the need of a wide policy. Various companies are talking about some super power development. Unfortunately
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there is perhaps a danger of this being undertaken by private concerns. Although a good many of our water-powers have already been alienated it would seem that we ought at this time to adopt a policy by which to conserve those that still remain under the control of the Dominion government; and I should hope that some day we will be able to regain for the people the water-powers that have been alienated. I would urge upon the department that there should be no further alienation of any water-power whatever but rather that in view of the great need there will be for water-powers for electrical development in the days to come, we grant the use of any of these powers only under the strictest sunpervision. Personally I think we ought to look forward in the very near future to a policy by which the Dominion, government, in conjunction with the various provincial governments, will develop these water-powers.


Charles A. Stewart: That is our policy at the moment. We do not let these water-powers pass into private hands any longer.


James Shaver Woodsworth: But nothing has
been done in the way of development?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


Edward Joseph Garland: I think the minister is technically correct but let me tell him frankly that as soon as he begins leasing for long terms vested interests arise and the government is up against the great difficulty of having practically to perpetuate private control of these resources. I think what the hon. member for Centre Winnipeg (Mr. Woodsworth) desires, and indeed I desire it myself, is to see the government maintain not only state control but the right to direct operation and to control the rates to be charged those who consume the power developed from these resources.


Charles A. Stewart: True, the
lease is for a term of years, but the control of the rates is absolutely in our hands. In view of what the hon. members for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) and West Calgary (Mr. Shaw) have said, I shall be perfectly willing, so far as this particular development is concerned, to submit it to parliament for consideration. We have a parks bill prepared in the department. One of the objections I have to this is that legislative action of a hard and fast character under which to operate our parks is not desirable.
fIV*r. Woodsworth.]


Henry Herbert Stevens: My appeal is that the
statutory control shall be applied only to applications for what I might call the dissipation of the resource itself, not the ordinary administrative concession.


Charles A. Stewart: As to the
statement by the hon. member for West Calgary that we have entirely too large an area in our parks, I doubt if this is true of the Banff park. I think he has in mind the forest reserve surrounding it. The park, which includes the Spray lake area, I do not think is unduly large. In nearly all our parks there is some scenic value which it would be dangerous to relinquish our control of. I agree with my hon. friend and confess that when I went up on that mountain and viewed the area I thought a twelve-mile lake would improve the scenery. This is a very vexed question, the ^public are taking a very great interest in it, and the Minister of the Interior can easily get into very serious difficulties in regard to it. Therefore I am relieved to pass the responsibility on to parliament.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Nothing will be done until the question is debated in regard to a parks bill?


Charles A. Stewart: I will be
prepared to submit it to parliament.
Mr. GARLAND (Bow River) In regard to this particular development?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Edward Joseph Garland: As to the
Spray lake question I agree almost entirely with the position taken by the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens), and the minister will have my very hearty support should he introduce any park policy of a definite character undertaking to do what has been suggested to-night. I had the pleasure of accompanying the hon. member for West Calgary (Mr. Shaw) into the Spray lake district last year. We found there exactly what he describes-a wretched area. The lake itself is most disreputable looking. There was really nothing picturesque throughout the whole area, and I do not think that any of the scenic beauty of Banff would be destroyed by developing a reservoir there. I am inclined to think that the scheme might be practical if carried out, but I am not yet convinced of this. We took the trouble of going over the site, examining the location of the proposed dam and tunnel, the estimated flow, and so on. But apart from that aspect altogether, I am inclined to agree with the minister that

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before we turn our attention to the alienation of any of the power resources in the parks area it would be as well to take into more serious consideration the development of power from our coal fields. I hope the government will continue its investigation in that direction so that we may be able to develop something similar to what the Ford plant in Ontario has accomplished. I am informed by one hon. member who went through the plant that the Ford people develop their own power from coal dust and claim to be able to do it cheaper than the cost of hydro electric power. Of course, I cannot vouch for the accuracy of all the statements made by those who have visited the plant, but certainly there should be a fair prospect of developing cheap power from our vast coal resources in Alberta, and I think the minister's advice might -well be taken into consideration and the development of this Spray lake project deferred until it really becomes necessary.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To cover professional assistance engaged by the Governor in Council to assist the departmental officers who are advising re international and boundary waterway questions, $8,000.	-
Charles A. Stewart: In addition
to paying for professional legal services, we are paying a portion of this amount for inspectional work at the Norman dam this year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Allowances to W. J. Stewart, Chief Hydrographer, and to J. T. Johnston, of the Dominion Water Power and Reclamation Service, of $1,000 each, for services in relation to questions under consideration by the International Joint Commission during the year 19251926, $2,000.
Charles A. Stewart: I desire to
move that this item be reduced1 by $1,666.68, so that the amount to be voted will be $333,32.
Item, as amended, agreed to.
Grant to Western Canada Irrigation Association,


Edward Joseph Garland: What has
the minister been able to do with respect to the Western Canada Land and Irrigation Company?


Charles A. Stewart: Owing to
the serious condition this project got into last year we have to expend $20,000 this year in connection with it. I was not able to get any information from the liquidator that would lead me to believe that he would be financially able to carry on the enterprise this year. He had hopes of selling it, and he had 263



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[Stage Direction]
various schemes in that respect, but I pointed out to him that under the Irrigation Act we would have to see that persons wfao purchased land under that project were protected. I was able to make an arrangement with him for one year. I got him to appoint the Minister of the Interior as agent for the receiver. We will have to furnish in the neighbourhood of $100,000, but we have all the powers that are conferred on the receiver for carrying on the project during the year. We will have to Carry out some improvements upon the main ditch and upon the bridges crossing the ditch, but only necessary improvements, of course, of that character will be made. We will deliver water to water users and to the New West Irrigation District, which is a subsidiary and receives its water supply from the Canada Land and Irrigation Company's ditch. Mr. McLane has been appointed as representative of the company. We have appointed Mr. D. W. Hays as manager,. Most of the western members will know Mr. Hays very well; he has had long experience in irrigation work and in addition is a good engineer. One of our own men has been sent to Medicine Hat to take charge of the office and to protect us in every way, to see that the accounting is properly done, and so on. So that for this year we will carry on in that way, in the hope that the receiver will be able to sell the enterprise or to make some arrangement under which it will be operated on the resources of some new company or even financed by the old company itself.
Edward Joseph Garland: Knowing
the conditions down there as he probably does, the minister must realize the desperate position in which these people find themselves, and merely making this arrangement for a year will not solve the problem. If he is simply going to permit the sale of the whole property to some other interests I am satisfied he will never get the money out of it. I doubt if anybody else will buy it unless they con keep on taxing the present contract holders. I am not sure what the minister has in mind with respect to that. I have had many communications from these people and they point out that there is one thing they require definitely to know if they are to continue operating on farms down there, and that is whether the contracts of sale are going to be modified. They want, in the first place, reduced valuation; secondly, they want some measures under which they will be able to get the water when they need it; thirdly, they suggest that the federal government should make some definite steps in this direction.



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[Stage Direction]
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[Stage Direction]
I have here one resolution which I think it might be well to read. It says:
Whereas as * result of continuous droughts for the past six years, which have resulted in crop failures in the districts adjacent to the towns of Lomond, Traverse, Enchant and Itetlaw, we, the farmers in this area, have through no fault of our own become practically destitute. We are facing a crisis, where some immediate action must be taken to better our condition, in order that we may eke out an existence and stop the entire depopulation of this portion of the province;
And whereas, through our efforts to maintain our homes, we have individually incurred and are encumbered with a burden of debt which it is impossible for us to carry, which we will never be able to pay, and which is increasing annually;
Now be it therefore resolved, in view of the fact that the government of Canada has invested several hundreds of thousands of dollars in the Canada Land and Irrigation project, that we the farmers of this area respectfully petition the aforesaid government to nationalize this project and as a means of alleviating conditions as they exist here at present, to construct laterals from the main canal to enable us to irrigate at least a portion of our land, in accordance with a survey made some years ago, thereby enabling the people who pioneered here and established homes fif-ton years ago to remain.
I was down in that district and I find there is quite a population of these pioneers, many of them men experienced in irrigation work in the United States. Most of the men who remain there are anxious to stay; they do not want to move out; they want to get water; they want to get reasonable terms. They may not be wise; I do not know myself whether the minister has faith in irrigation as a solution of the difficulties in that area, but if he has faith in it I do most earnestly urge upon him to expedite a solution of the difficulties which face these people. They are really in a desperate plight, and if the government is unable to give them any hope for better things in the future then the only thing left to them is to pull out. If they do that they will leave the district with a very large debt-school and municipal taxes, mortgage debts-on their shoulders; the whole scheme will be 'blown to pieces, irrigation development work in that portion of the province will be set back for many years.
Charles A. Stewart: The territory my hon. friend speaks of is not irrigated.


Edward Joseph Garland: Not yet.


Charles A. Stewart: The people there are asking for a supply of water from the main canal of the Canada Land and Irrigation Company and we have authority to deal with that request. The New West organization, which is a reasonably flourishing project, was organized under provincial auspices. The water is being delivered to them, and we can do the same for other 
people. The contractors that I spoke of are those having existing contracts on the Canada Land and Irrigation project. We have power to reduce their contract price, and I am looking into that matter now with a view to making a reduction to encourage and hold these people who are on irrigated lands, and are meeting with a reasonable amount of success. But clearly I do not want to take on a new project until something at least is done with the other. In any case they could organize themselves into an irrigation district and float their bonds as the others have.


Edward Joseph Garland: But they
have no funds to do anything of this kind with: they are practically bankrupt, every one of them. They are in a desperate state and awaiting relief. Just in connection with that, I received only this morning a letter which I think it is perhaps just as well to give the substance of to the minister at this moment. He may be able to give me an answer at once. It would appear that the Canada Land and Irrigation Company is not yet liquidated, and therefore is still in possesion of the works. Now there is a certain bridge, between sections 1-19-22-W4, and sections 35-18-22-W4, which was condemned last year. Nobody has been able to do any work on it, and the Canada Land and Irrigation Company ignore it; they refuse to do anything. The bridge itself is impassable, and yet it is on a most important-road, the road that goes from Brooks to High River. In addition, note that it is practically the only road by which the farmers west and south of Milo can get into Milo. I think it would be well if the minister would give out instructions to have this matter looked after at once.


Charles A. Stewart: I may say
that that matter is being taken care of. The engineers have instructions tp pick out the more important bridges and repair them first. Unfortunately most of the bridges on this project are out of repair. I was hopeful that we would not need to repair them all, except on the more important highways of traffic. I feel quite confident that the bridge my hon. friend mentions is being taken care of, and I shall be very glad to wire out definite instructions if he will give me the exact location.


Edward Joseph Garland: I will hand over the letter to the minister. I received it only this morning, so he will recognize that the bridge is a very recent cause of trouble. The farmers in that district will be absolutely unable to take advantage of the new railroad

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tuat is being built unle'ss they can get this bridge repaired.


Mr. GARDINER:: In case of a revision of the contract prices downwards, will the^ minister be able to maintain that in case of a disposition of this area of land to some other company?


Charles A. Stewart: Oh yes.
They will be given new contracts, just as the Canadian Pacific did in their case. We have the authority of the receiver for doing this, passed upon by the bond holders, by whose authority the receiver was appointed. I was very careful to get the Justice department to protect us in that matter, in order that we might give that very necessary relief.


Robert Gardiner: I believe you have appointed the late manager to supervise this matter under your jurisdiction. Has the minister looked into the question of this man's ability to give proper supervision without undue cost?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes. I have known Mr. Hays quite a number of years. I have known him as a consulting engineer, and employed him in Alberta. When he took over that project it was in very bad shape. The company was practically out of business, but he carried it along on a shoestring for years until, of course, he could not carry it on any longer. But in addition to that our own engineer, Mr. Meek, is acting in a supervisory capacity to Mr. Hays, as the resident manager.


Mr. THURSTON:: Would the minister
complete his explanation of this vote for
$1,000?


Charles A. Stewart: The Western Canada Irrigation Association was organized in a small way in 1907. For a great many years it was the practice of the department to make an annual grant of $500.


John Jabez Thurston: For what purpose?


Charles A. Stewart: For the purpose of publishing the annual report of the convention. In 1919 it was decided that the government report should no longer be published, but the grant was increased in that year to $1,000, and from then on an annual grant of $1,000 has been made. Instead of publishing the report of the annual convention the association now issues a monthly bulletin, The Irrigation Review, which is sent out to all water users free of charge.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

To provide for the expenses connected with Canadian National Parks, historic sites, care of indigents in the parks, etc., and to reimburse the provincial government for the salaries of police magistrates at Banff and at Jasper, $1,025,000.
Mr. SPENCE:: Would the minister be
good enough to explain the increase of $25,000 in this item? It seems an unreasonable increase.


Charles A. Stewart: We find
ourselves from time to time up against rather serious expenditures. A year ago we had to install a power plant at Banff, which ran our expenditure up by over $150,000. I am trying to keep the expenditure as close as I can to $1,000,000, but this year we find a rather serious situation in Jasper, owing to having to provide a water supply, which will cost us in the neighbourhood of $80,000. There is a fairly large municipality growing up there, and unless something is done of a radical character we may find ourselves with an epidemic on our hands. This has increased the amount of the vote, in spite of our cutting down on other expenditures, and largely accounts for this increase of $25,000.


John Jabez Thurston: Is there any charge
for the water to the citizens?


Charles A. Stewart: Oh yes.
This is not a capitalized expenditure. We take it out of the revenue account, and then make a charge to the water users.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I would like to make a
suggestion to the minister in regard to this item and the rest of this vote. It is getting pretty late, and this is a very large and very important item. I cannot speak for my hon. friends to my left, but I wanted to make this suggestion: We might let this large item stand, and then pass the subsequent^ items, which are of less importance. I think we should leave this large item over for discussion when it is not quite so late.


Mr. SHAW:: I would like to concur in
the suggestion of my hon. friend. The item is a large and important one, and merits much more consideration than we can give it at this hour of the night. I would suggest to the minister that the item stand.


Charles A. Stewart: I am quite
willing to let it stand if the other items are passed.


The CHAIRMAN:: All the other items are carried with the exception of the vote for Canadian National Parks which stands.


Henry Elvins Spencer: What other items, Mr. Chairman?

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George Newcombe Gordon: The rest of the items in the resolution.


Henry Elvins Spencer: In reference to the item of $1,000 "grant to Alpine Club of Canada"- I should1 like to know why this grant is made, and what the government get out of it?


Charles A. Stewart: The Alpine Club is regarded as a very important organization, and I think perhaps the government gets full value for the grant through the advertising received. The club's report of its annual outings and what occurs at its camps, with the pictures of the scenic beauties in which the camps are located, and the accounts
of the club's mountain climbing, is now distributed in most of the countries from which we get tourist traffic. Throughout the United States and Great Britain you will find copies of the report which is issued annually, and I am bound to think that the thousand dollars brings very fair results in that way.


George Newcombe Gordon: The items are carried with the exceptions of the vote for Canadian National Parks.
Progress reported.
_ On motion of Mr. Graham the House adjourned at 11.55 pun.



END OF VOLUME IV.