1925-06-09

[Stage Direction]
Abstract of statements of Insurance Companies in Canada for the year ended 31 December, 1924.-Hon. Mr. Robb.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. MARCIL (Bonaventure) moved that the fourth report of the joint committee on the Printing of Parliament be concurred in.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil) moved that the order for the House to go into committee of the Whole on Bill No. 6 to amend the Yukon Quartz Mining Act as amended be rescinded and that the said bill be placed on the order paper in government orders for consideration in committee of the Whole at the next sitting of the House.
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Bill	No.	178,	from	the	Senate,	for	the
relief of Matthew Wilson Lazenby.-Mr. Ross (Kingston).
Bill	No.	179,	from	the	Senate,	for	the
relief of Evelyn Laura Herlehy.-Mr. Ross (Kingston).
Bill	No.	180,	from	the	Senate,	for	the
relief	of Lois Kathleen Purdy.-Mr. Ross
(Kingston).

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. H. E. SPENCER (Battle River):: Will the Acting Minister of Finance tell us when the government intends to bring down legislation with respect to rural credits?


Hon. J. A. ROBB (Acting Minister of Finance) :: I will probably be in a position
to give my hon. friend a reply this week.



EDITION

[Stage Direction]
Income War Tax Act

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. L. J. LADNER (Vancouver South):: As a result of communications I have just received from the coast, I desire to ask the government if they will correct something which was done last year and which is mentioned in the Duncan report. When the surplus fruit from the United States was dumped into British Columbia and the prairie provinces, the anti-dumping duty was levied, but was promptly refunded, so that the effect of the anti-dumping clause was negatived. The fruit season is approaching, and it is important to know whether the government's policy in the future -will permit such a thing, or whether they will correct this matter and stop the refunding process.


Hon. P. J. A. CARDIN (Minister of Marine and Fisheries):: No definite stand has been
taken in this matter and no definite request has been made to the department at the present time. I will be pleased indeed to look into the matter, as suggested to my hon. friend, and will be in a position in a day or two to give a definite answer.



HUDSON BAY RAILWAY

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. ANDREW KNOX (Prince Albert):: As the session is pretty well advanced, will the Minister of Railways tell us when we may expect something in the shape of a supplementary estimate for the Hudson Bay railway?
Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals):	The estimates, so
far as the government has considered the Hudson Bay project further than has been disclosed, are now before the House in the estimates of the Canadian National Railway.



SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Marquette):: Can
the Acting Minister of Finance tell us when the supplementary estimates will be brought down?


James Alexander Robb: They are now in course of preparation.



RHINE FRONTIER

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. J. S. WOODSWORTH (Centre Winnipeg) :: With regard to the matter referred
fMr. Robb.]
to yesterday by the hon. member for East Calgary (Mr. Irvine), will the Prime Minister tell us whether Canada is party to any security pact with France in regard to the Rhineland?


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: The answer is, no.



ALTERNATIVE VOTE

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. ROBERT FORKE (Brandon):: Has
the Minister of Justice any information to give the House as to when the Alternative Vote bill will be brought down?


Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice):: I have no information to give my
hon. friend, except that the House has all the work that it can attend to just now. That has been the position for the last few days. The Alternative vote measure is on the order paper.



INCOME WAR TAX ACT, 1917 REPEAL OP SECTION 25 CONSTITUTING LIEN UPON ASSETS OF TAX PAYER

[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. A. ROBB (Acting Minister of Finance) mcved that the House go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution :
That it is expedient to repeal section 25 of the Income War Tax Act, 1917, as enacted by chapter 46 of the statutes of 1924, constituting a lien upon the assets of the taxpayer for unpaid taxes assessed under the said act.
Motion agreed to and the House went into committee, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
Mr. GOOD:: We might have some explanation from the minister as to the purport of this resolution.


James Alexander Robb: The House will recall that in 1924 legislation was passed giving the government a special lien on account of income taxes. Since that time the income tax collecting branches have been consolidated with the customs and excise ports, so that there are now a great many offices throughout Canada. It is estimated that there are over 300,000 taxpayers, and as the number of defaulting taxpayers is comparatively small, it has been decided that the remedies which the crown may exercise now without this lien are sufficient. We feel 'that the crown has sufficient guarantees and this interferes somewhat with business.


Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: The minister is quite right in bringing in this resolution and it is proper legislation. It is proper not merely by reason of the fact that there has been an amalgamation of the departments; that has not changed the situation at all; it is proper

Proposed Loan
to do this because what we did in 1924 was improper and mistaken. What we were there doing was in connection with the income tax, placing a statutory lien or encumbrance upon real estate, never mind where situated, tieing the hands of ratepayers in the handling of their property, making it difficult for them to get loans, mortgages and the like. It was a retrograde step, entirely too high-handed. It was going beyond the ordinary legitimate business practices. I think my hon. friend is to be commended for now seeing the error that was committed in 1924 and putting it right.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Robb thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 183, to amend the Income War Tax Act, 1917.
Mo: ion agreed to and bill read the first time.



PROPOSED LOAN OF $164,000,000

[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. A. ROBB (Acting Minister of Finance) moved the second reading of Bill No. 170, to authorize the raising, by way of loan, of certain sums of money for the public service.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
Section 1 agreed to.
On section 2-Loan authorized.
Henry Lumley Drayton: I want to call
my hon. friend's attention to just one thing, and that is that some hon. members have spoken to me about the object of this bill. I understood it to be merely refunding and I so advised them. They also said that they could not see any loans falling due this year which would account for the refunding. I told them that doubtless the refunding was occasioned by reason of short-date loans made by my hon. friend last year, which loans he proposed now to turn into long-date obligations. All I want is to be assured that I was right. I think I must have been right.


James Alexander Robb: I think when the resolution
was before the House I gave a list of maturities. They are as follows:
July 1, Dominion stock	$	60,800 00
Aug. 12, treasury bills, London	 23,333,333 33
September 15, one year notes, New York 90,000,000 00 November 15 one year notes, Canada.. ..	8,000,000 00
December 1, war loan, 1915-1925	 42,014,500 00
Total	$164,408,633 33
256i


William Charles Good: Is it the intention of the government to convert practically all of these short-term borrowings into long-term loans?


James Alexander Robb: We have not yet determined
what method of financing we shall make use of. That will be determined when we have the bids. It will depend largely upon the condition of the money market. I may say to hon. members, as an indication of how popular Canadian securities are, that this bill was scarcely on the order paper two hours until we had a couple of calls from New York. We had two visits from bond men in Canada and one from bond men in New York last week. We have had visits from bond men in New York to-day. We are waiting until the session is over in order to determine just how favourable the market may be.


Mr.   MAOLEAN@York: Are any of the
commitments of the government in connection with the National railways still in the shape of short-term loans?


James Alexander Robb: These are not National Railway loans.


Mr. MACLEAN (York):: I know, but are some of the commitments in connection with the National railways still in the shape of short-term loans?


James Alexander Robb: I could not answer my hon.
friend as to that.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Has the minister considered making further use of the savings deposits in the Post Office Department by removing a certain number of restrictions which at the present time people are under who use that department? I understand there is a limit of the amount-it is $1,500, I think- that can be placed in the Post Office Department in one year, and a limit of $5,000 in all on which interest can be paid. Has the minister considered giving a higher rate of interest to depositors on post office savings accounts and making more use of that system of borrowing for the government, thus saving a considerable sum of money?


James Alexander Robb: That is a matter worthy of attention. I have not taken it into consideration.


Mr. IRVINE:: The minister in this bill is
asking parliament to authorize the pledging of Canadian securities, in other words, our credit, to some financial institution in order that we may borrow it back again at whatever per cent they may wish to lend it to us. Has the minister ever considered the possibility of finding some better way of utilizing our own credit than that now in practice? Surely
Proposed Loan

it is apparent that if we are to continue raising our required finances in accordance with the present system, by which we double our indebtedness every twenty years, it is impossible that we shall ever get out of debt. This must be clear to everybody. Has either the minister or the government ever thought of any other method of using our own credit in order to avoid this piling up of debt?


James Alexander Robb: My hon. friend has brought
this point to the attention of the House a number of times. We believe in having a sound financial system and it is our opinion that it should be such that there would be no doubt in a man's mind as to what he would receive when he sold a bushel of wheat, for example.


William Irvine: Is it a sound system whereby our debt is doubled every twenty years?


Henry Lumley Drayton: It is not our
financial system that accounts for the fact that * every twenty years or so our liabilities are doubled; the reason is rather to be found in our fondness for spending money whether we have it or not. We have that on the one hand, and on the other there are troubles in connection with the incidence of taxation. Of course, if you spend more money than you can raise you will go into debt; and this is true not only of individuals but of nations as well. I do not think there is much difference in this respect between the individual and the nation; if expenditures are more than income there will be liabilities. That I think is what the hon. member means when he speaks of our indebtedness being doubled. And you will increase your liabilities whether you express them in sound money, in terms of credit, or in any other way. You may increase your liabilities in terms which may not mean very much having regard to the value of your token, but you may also increase them to a startling extent under a system of financing Which might be very different from ours.
I am perfectly free to admit that if there is any way in which the Department of Finance can put into effect any improved system of financing, such a system should be adopted. And when I say "system of financing" I am using a term that covers a very broad field: it covers the basis of taxation; it covers the standard of currency; it covers of necessity the methods by which you make your loans. If the Department of Finance could find some new system of that sort it would be an excellent thing, provided, of course, the troubles incident thereto were not worse than those from which we now suffer.

I am not for one moment suggesting that the present system is perfect; I do not think that anything human can be perfect. But so far I have not been able to find an alternative which shows any real promise of betterment. Possibly somewhere there is a happy spot where the differences are reconciled as between those who think that one hundred per cent happiness is to be found in sound money and those who think that humanity ought to be looked upon as the first consideration. Personally I think that the humanitarian aspect which my hon. friend (Mr. Irvine) very properly refers to from time to time ought always to be the first consideration. But in connection with any palliative system, I think that any changes that have so far been made in the name of humanity have not benefited humanity to any considerable extent; humanity itself has suffered most from these so-called financial reforms. Money under the gold standard may work a lot of harm sometimes; it may mean the closing off of credits, which is a bad thing, and it may mean unemployment and the slowing down of industry. But it is a good thing to have such a system if you do not pay too much for it; and at the present time I really fail to see any way in which the Acting Minister of Finance (Mr. Robb) can finance except in the way he proposes. At any rate, I have not seen any plan submitted which in my opinion could be adopted.


William Irvine: I am glad to see that the ex-Minister of Finance (Sir Henry Drayton) has come so ably to the defence of the acting minister (Mr. Robb). I understand that the ex-minister has a very wide and thorough knowledge of financial questions, but I will take issue with him on at least one of the points which he made, the first one, that the doubling of our debts was due not to the system of paying interest but rather to the fact that we were spending money whether we had it or not. I do not know, of course, what the hon. gentleman meant by " money"; I presume he would mean credit. However, I will not enter into a discussion of that phase of the question now; but I shall ask him another question which possibly will bring out the point at issue. We are now providing for a loan of $164,000,000. I do not know whether we have or have not that " money ", to use the phrase of my hon. friend, but we will assume we have the credit; otherwise we could not borrow the money. Now, $164,000,000 in twenty years at five per cent would be approximately $328,000,000. Will that $164,000,000 increase to $32S,000,000 merely because we borrowed

Proposed Loan
" money " which we did not have? Or will the increase come about because of the five per cent interest which we shall pay to someone, 'absolutely for nothing? And this does not take into consideration brokerages and other expenses in the placing of loans. The ex-Minister spoke of our adopting some other system. What he said would be timely if there were any chance in the world of this parliament taking any new action in any direction, but there is not the slightest danger of that. However, if we were contemplating taking new action, then I certainly agree with the ex-minister that we should be careful indeed about what we did. The hon. gentleman is afraid that any new system might be worse than the one we now have. I do not think that is possible; it seems to me that the present system will land us in destruction in a short time. We have a national debt now of nearly three billion dollars and the only way we can pay our debts under the present system is by incurring new debts with which to cancel old debts. Our indebtedness is thus doubled each twenty years providing we fail to pay interest. At the present time our people are over-burdened with taxation and the end of the journey is in sight. Yet this is called " sound financing ". I would not blame the present government or the Acting Minister of Finance (Mr. Robb) for following the path that has been followed right along, if there were no better system in sight. But there are better policies that could be adopted and I do not think the government has interested itself sufficiently to examine them. Certainly there is no more dangerous policy than the one at present in effect; we are heading for bankruptcy whether we want to admit it or not. And this is true not only of Canada but of other nations as well. I think the words of the British Ambassador to the United States, uttered in New York about two weeks ago, were ominous indeed; and we can only conclude from them that Great Britain through her ambassador was giving warning to the United States that she would not be able to pay even the interest on her indebtedness in the future. The situation is worse in France and is not much better in Canada. This " sound financial system " of our9 is landing us in the ditch.


Henry Lumley Drayton: 
William Irvine: Mr. Chairman. I used the
term "sound money" in rather a jocular sense. There is no difference that I have been able to appreciate between the financial systems now in vogue in Germany, Austria, France, Great Britain, the United States and Canada. The financiers of the world have forced Aus-
Proposed Loan

tria and 'Germany back into the old, "sound, orthodox system of financing." We never needed to be forced; we were content to follow without even making a protect. There is no different system of finance in any of these countries. The other point mentioned by my hon. friend was that we pay our interest from year to year, therefore our debts do hot grow. But if we pay our interest from year to year then that is debt paid, and we can only pay by increasing the taxation of our people; and it would be a very courageous government indeed which would dare increase the present taxation very much more. Still we go on borrowing. If we cannot increase our taxation further to pay interest, then we must charge up interest to the national debt, and borrow still more to pay that interest; and so on we go down the toboggan slide to bankruptcy,


James Shaver Woodsworth: Mr. Chairman, I
should like to support the contention that there is another way by which we might do our financing. I recognize that until we have a sound system of national banks it is extremely difficult to do so. But it would seem to me that this repeated borrowing on such a vast scale ought to make even the most conservative-minded pause and ask whether there is not some other way. I cannot understand why, if we had our own banking system, we could not directly issue these amounts. I am not pleading for "easy money," I am not pleading for inflation, but I would suggest there is no more danger of inflation by the government issuing its own money than by its going to a bank and pledging the credit of the country for the bank to issue its money. However, I suppose we are not considering that larger *question of our own banking system, without which I cannot quite see how we can handle the situation. But I should like to call attention to the suggestion offered by my hon. friend from Battle River (Mr. Spencer). The Acting Minister of Finance (Mr. Robb) I think said that he had not considered an increase in the rate on savings bank deposits. A debate on this question took place in 1914, and on page 5199 of Hansard we have the following from Mr. Lemieux:
Does my hon. friend the Minister of Finance (Mr. White) think that in the present financial condition he would not be doing well by increasing the rate of interest on the savings in the post office savings banks? There is a general outcry amongst the plain people of this country against the low rate of interest the government pays its depositors. Could not my hon. friend take the interests of the plain people to his heart, and pro bono publico increase the rate of interest paid to depositors in the post office savings banks by one per cent?
JMr. Irvine.]
Mr. White, the Finance Minister of the time, replied:
That matter has frequently been discussed in the House. The raising the interest rate on savings deposits in the post office, and in the chartered banks of the Dominion, would be followed by an increase in the discount rate. If my hon. friend had taken the trouble that I have to look into this matter, and had examined the statement of, say, the Bank of Montreal, he would have found that to increase the rate of interest by even one half of one per cent would have a very serious effect on the earning power of that institution. The result would be to increase the discount rate to the manufacturers and business people of Canada. . . For the present, at all events, I see no prospect of increasing the interest rate on deposits in the post office savings banks. I may say that my predecessor reduced the interest rate on such deposits, giving as his reason that in consequence of its being an artificial rate the discount rate had been found burdensome to business.
There is a very frank admission by the then Minister of Finance that the reason the interest on the savings in the Post Office banks was not increased was because it might interfere with the profits of the chartered banks. No real argument was put forth to show why the banks would need to raise their interest rate, because there is already a wide spread between the interest charged by the banks and that which is allowed on deposits in the savings banks. But I am inclined to think that this policy, which has now been going on for eleven years-indeed, it was in vogue when this debate took cplace in 1914-has been dictated very largely 'by the interests of the banks and not by the interests of the people at large. There would seem to be no reason why the small savings of a large number of people should not be collected and used for government purposes instead of the government going to the banks and paying to them a much higher rate of interest than is being paid to the depositors in the Post Office saving bank. What proportion of this $164,000,000 is it proposed to spend1 on the retiring of these bonds and what proportion will be spent on public w'orks and general purposes?


James Alexander Robb: I have already placed that information on Hansard two or three times. The total maturities this year amount to $164,408,633.33. The bill now before the committee provides for $164,000,000. It is all, therefore, for the retiring of bonds; in fact it will 'be floted that the maturities this year amount to $408,633.33 more than we are asking for.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Why, then, these words in the bill: "and for public works and general purposes"?


James Alexander Robb: I had hoped it would go through without my having to explain that. But I will tell my hon. friend frankly that if

Proposed Loan
we have any spare money left over we propose to go quietly into the market wherever we can and buy outstanding tax free bonds that may be on the market.


Mr. JACOBS:: I am not often in agreement with the hon. member for Centre Winnipeg (Mr. Woodsworth), but there seems to be sound sense in the argument he has just made. It puzzles me to know why a bank can get all the money it requires-or some banks, rather -at 3 per cent and lend it out at 100 per cent profit, while the government of Canada, from which after all, the banks derive their life, has to go on the market and pay, roughly,
5 per Cent for money, and get it outside of the country. Surely the credit of the Dominion of Canada is just as good as that of any bank in this, country. If the credit of the Dominion is worthless, then the credit of the banks is worthless. If we could by some arrangement obtain from our own people in small sums this $164,000,000 at 3 per cent, or even 31 per cent, it would be good business. We would save from a million and a half to two millions yearly and we could use that money in the building of elevators or branch lines or for other useful purposes prior to a general election. The possibilities are tremendous. I would suggest to the minister that before we begin negotiations with these astute gentlemen who have already telephoned him from New York and other outstanding points, we should see whether we can interest our own people in taking up this loan.


William Charles Good: I think the hon. member is absolutely right in his point of view.


Samuel William Jacobs: I am beginning to think now that I am wrong.


William Charles Good: How very unkind! There is no good reason why such a policy cannot be followed. During the sittings of the Banking and Commerce committee last year some attention was given to the postal savings banks and it was apparent to the members of the committee, for reasons I need not suggest, that the postal savings banks had in recent years been considerably crippled. In Ontario about four years ago provincial savings banks or "branches" were established in many centres, as had previously been done in Manitoba, and a large amount
4 p.m. of money has been collected from the people of the province and made available for advances on agricultural loans or any other provincial purpose whatsoever. Four per cent was paid on these deposits, and it is only recently that the
rate has been cut down to three per cent. What was done then and what is being done now at a lower rate of interest in Ontario, what has been done for a good many years in Manitoba, can be done by the Dominion. There is no reason in the world, other than the selfishness of our chartered banks, why the citizens of Canada cannot contribute of their savings for Dominion purposes. I think the present situation is an outrage. The matter of utilizing the savings of the people through our postal savings banks or by means of some other machinery of a similar character should receive prompt and earnest attention on the part of the government and the Acting Minister of Finance.
Let me emphasize one further point: The minister would be horrified if anyone suggested that he print Dominion notes to the extent of $164,000,000 and meet his maturing obligations in that way. But he will give the note of the Dominion to a bank either here or elsewhere which will then issue its printed pieces of paper, and thus probably inflate the currency to exactly the same extent as he would do by printing Dominion notes.


Mr. VIEN:: Does my hon. friend doubt for one minute what the effect would be if the Minister of Finance did issue Dominion notes for that amount?


William Charles Good: I seriously doubt the implication of my hon. friends question; but I do admit that without proper regulation the policy is a risky one. What I want to point out now is that the government, rightly I think, hesitates to adopt a policy that they allow the banks to adopt and pay them five per cent interest for. Now this is the situation:	My
hon. friend the Acting Minister of Finance will rightly hesitate to throw into circulation $100,000,000 worth of Dominion currency, but he will go to the Bank of Montreal and pay tliat bank $5,000,000 for doing the very thing that he will not do, the very thing that he is ashamed to do. Not only does he allow the bank to do that, but he pays them a nice round figure if they inflate the currency by $100,000,000, as they may well do, and have done in the past. I admit that in fact it may not be quite that extent of inflation, but the Acting Minister of Finance does not know that it is not inflation to the full extent of the $100,000,000. That is my point. Here we are complaining all the time about the possibilities and the dangers of inflation or deflation, and rightly so, because the issue of currency must be regulated, and carefully regulated. But while we thus shrink we are permitting the banks in an unregulated way to commit
Proposed Loan
COMMONb
the very same sin that we are ashamed to commit; and not only do we allow them to do it, but we pay them a nice round sum for doing it. I know how we are deluded, how the Minister of Finance and the people generally are deluded, because we think, and usually wrongly think, that this money is money that has been gathered in as we gather in money through our savings branches. It may be so sometimes, but frequently it is not at ail! that. It may be simply the writing of new money, and, as I said before in regard to the crippling of our postal savings branches, I think our present custom, outrageous, of allowing our private institutions, which have practically a monopoly of issuing new currency to do the very thing that we would regard as a sin if we did it ourselves. We had a bill up yesterday in connection with the counterfeiting of money, and my hon. friend from Bow River (Mr. Garland) liaised the question whether it Should not be criminal to depreciate the value of the dollar. It is judged criminal to write purchasing power on a piece of paper, and rightly so, but that is what we allow our banks to do, and we often pay them, five per cent interest for doing it, for just writing purchasing power on pieces of paper! I do not want to delay the committee any further just now, but that is the situation.


James Alexander Robb: Hon. gentlemen seem to be under the impression that we have been paying. and propose to pay, five per cent and more for this money. I would direct their attention to the fact that the $98,000,000 maturing is now on a four per cent basis, and $60,800 of the Joan made iast year is on a 3J per cent basis. That does not mean I am not in favour of borrowing money at a lower rate. I propose to be generous with hon. members of this House. If we get through here before the first of July, it will be pay day, and I make an offer now to every hon. member of this House to borrow his indemnity of $4,000 and pay four per cent interest for it. That includes the hon. member for George Etienne Cartier (Mr. Jacobs), who comes from a race of financiers.


Samuel William Jacobs: Mine is already spent. I am like the government in that respect.
(Mr. GARLAND (Bow River): That point raised by -my hon. friend the Acting Ministei of Finance is a most ridiculous one and has nothing to do with the case we are discussing, except that it would perpetuate the evil to which we have been addressing ourselves. The proposition as we see it, very briefly, is this: The Dominion of Canada is mow in the position of wanting to secure some money with 
which to pay debts. It is proposed to get that money by pledging the credit of the Dominion. We went over all this last year and pointed out to the minister that what he was getting back in return for our real credit was either a book entry or another promise to pay on the part of some financial house; in other words, another credit slip. All we are getting is a credit Slip and we are paying interest on that credit slip. The real asset is the credit of .the whole of Canada which is pledged to some financial house, and we are going to pay them interest and keep on paying them. It is this system which has helped to bring Canada to its present position, and the effect of which will increase as the years go by. To-day Canada has a debt of about $380 for every man, woman and child. It amounts to twice as much as the total per capita debt of France prior to the war. That fact alone ought to be enough to shock hon. members of this House, especially when we realize that France at that time had the largest national debt in the whole world. To-day Canada, this large country with a small population, has a per capita debt equal to, in fact Slightly .greater than, the .per capita debt of France before the war, and that country at that time had the largest debt in the world. We are making no attempt to reduce our debt, to get out from under the system .that is carrying us .further and further into debt.
I do not wish (o reiterate all the arguments that have been made by hon. members around me year after year. All I wish now is to register again my protest against the continuation of the present system, and the lack of any honest, sincere, earnest attempt by the minister or his department to find some better system.


Mr. COOTE:: There is just one point I
would like to bring to the attention of the minister, and that is to ask that in cases where loans are being refunded the holders of the maturing bonds should be given an opportunity to exchange their holdings for bonds of the new issue.


James Alexander Robb: That will apply if they are
Canadians.


George Gibson Coote: In 1923 there was a loan
refunded in Canada, and a circular was sent to the holders of the old bonds notifying them that they would have the privilege of exchanging, but certain cases have been brought to my attention where the holders of the old bonds were not able to secure bonds of the new issue in exchange, although they had handed their bonds into the bank on the 2nd day of October, and the bends did

Proposed Loan
not. mature until November 1st. They have not been able to secure any redress since from the Department of Finance or the banks, and I think the people have been misled. It would seem that when these loans were sold to certain syndicates, the public were not fully protected in that they were not given a proper oppor unity for exchanging for bonds of the new issue. I certainly think it is desirable that the bonds of this country should be spread as widely as possible amongst our population, and I certainly think it is imperative that the holders of these bonds, particularly the small holders, should be given a fair opportunity of exchanging for the new bonds, and when circulars are issued to that effect, the government should see that proper provision is made in the contract with the syndicate for the exchanging of the bonds. I have already had correspondence with the minister in regard to two or three cases, and I hope he will see that in future such cases as these do not occur.


Henry Elvins Spencer: I am very glad to hear
the Acting Minister of Finance say that he will take under due consideration the possibility of giving a higher rate of interest on post office savings deposits.


James Alexander Robb: I did not say that. I understood my hon. friend to ask me to enlarge the limit. That is all my hon. friend asked at the time. There was no question of the rate of interest being raised as his remarks came across :he floor to me. He simply said that the limit now was $1,500, and he wanted that limit enlarged.


Henry Elvins Spencer: He also suggested raising the rate of interest.


James Alexander Robb: I did not catch that.


Henry Elvins Spencer: I would like to refer to
the statement the minister made the other day with regard to the government of Canada not guaranteeing deposits in the ordinary chartered banks of this country. Considering the great losses which have been incurred during the last twro years of savings which have been deposited in a certain bank in Canada, it is of great importance for the people, particularly that class of people who deposit their savings-and you might count them in very large numbers-to know that they have some place, such as the government post office savings bank, where their savings can be guaranteed. The government from time to time has preached the advisability of thrift. I do not know of any greater encouragement that the government could give to the people of this country to be thrifty than offering them one
per cent higher rate of interest on their savings in the post office savings bank than the rate the people are receiving at the present time.
I was somewhat surprised the other day when :he minister made the statement most emphatically that the government of this country would not guarantee savings in the ordinary bank.


James Alexander Robb: I stated the fact-and my hon. friend has a responsibility in that matter, as he is a member of the Banking and Commerce committee-that under the banking laws of Canada the government are not responsible in such cases.


Henry Elvins Spencer: That makes my case all the better. In 1923 the hon. member for Macleod (Mr. Coote) proposed an amendment to the Bank Act before the Banking and Commerce committee, suggesting that a notice be placed in each bank advising the public that the government. of Canada did not assume any responsibility for the safety of deposits in that bank. At that time the amendment was strongly opposed by the government and (its supporters, and it did not carry. If, as the minister has informed the House and the public in the last few days- which I admit is correct-that the government will not^ guarantee deposits in the banks, why was the amendment not allowed to go through? I make this statement now because the two attitudes seem to me to be opposed. I hope that before the minister comes to this House again desiring to float other loans, whether to pay for public works or to meet indebtedness, he will consider the question of increasing the rate of interest given by the government on post office savings.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. A. ROBB (Acting Minister of Finance) moved the second reading of Bill No. 182, for the relief of the depositors of the Home Bank of Canada.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the House went into committee thereon, Mr, Marcil (Bonaventure) in the chair.
On section 2-$5,450,000 for paying proportionate part of amounts due depositors in Home Bank.
William Charles Good: There seems to be just a little doubt as to the second of these phrases: "For money on deposit or in current account ".
Home Bank

Perhaps the minister would allay any uneasiness on that point.


James Alexander Robb: I expected this point would be raised. My hon. friend will understand that a bank as a going concern has not only the money on deposit, but the money of the depositor for which a cheque has been issued and not yet withdrawn, and to make that perfectly clear, I would refer, for instance, to bills of exchange issued by the banks, cheques certified and accepted, outstanding at the date of suspension and not yet cashed, and persons entitled to money collected as agents and not paid at the time of suspension. If the bank had been collecting a note for my hon. friend and it had not been paid at the date of suspension, that would be an instance of it.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 3-Creditors for money or deposit, or in current account, defined.
Mr. STEVENS:: Would the minister explain the last two lines:
And persons entitled to moneys collected as agent prior to suspension and not paid over.


James Alexander Robb: I just gave an instance of that to my hon. friend from Brant. As J. understand it, if my hon. friend had left a note at the bank for collection and the bank had collected the note but had not paid over the money, that would be a case in point. There are several cases of that kind.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 4-No payment to person or government entitled to charge upon assets, or bank or banking correspondent.
Henry Herbert Stevens: What is section 131?


James Alexander Robb: Section 131 reads:
In the case of the insolvency of any bank,-
(a)	the payment of the notes issued or tq-issued by such bank, intended for circulation, and then in circulation, together with any interest paid or payable thereon as hereinbefore provided, shall be the first charge upon the assets of the bank;
(b)	the payment of any amount due to the government of Canada, in trust or otherwise, shall be the second charge upon such assets;
(c)	the payment of any amount due to the government of any of the provinces, in trust or otherwise, shall be the third charge upon such assets; and,
(d)	the amount of any penalties for which the bank is liable shall not form a charge upon the assets of the bank, until all other liabilities are paid. 1913, c. 9.


Henry Herbert Stevens: None of these comes under the bill.


William Charles Good: In that connection have these prior claims been made already?

Mr. ROBBi Well, two or three, but they are provided for I think.


William Charles Good: Provided for in the liquidation?


James Alexander Robb: I think so.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to. '
On section 5-Distribution and payment by liquidators.
Henry Herbert Stevens: I intimated yesterday
that the question would arise; will the liquidator receive fees for the distribution of this five million?


James Alexander Robb: No, I do not think he expects any fees. Following the debate in the House yesterday, I explained to the Deputy Minister of Finance' this morning as a reminder, that when we made a remittance of a cheque to the liquidator, to prepare for my signature a letter making it very clear to him that there were to be no commissions paid to anybody and he was to see to it that this money was sent only to those for whom it was intended under the act, namely the depositors.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Should we not insert that in the bill?


James Alexander Robb: I think we have made it pretty clear, and I do not think there is any necessity of putting it in the bill.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The hon. member for
West York (Sir Henry Drayton) asked for certain information yesterday.


James Alexander Robb: I gave the hon. member for
West York a copy of the letter.


Henry Herbert Stevens: All right.


Mr. RYCKMAN:: The power of the Acting Minister of Finance may be very important and reach a great distance, but it cannot override the courts, and if the liquidator receives or disburses this money, he will be entitled to the usual commission which a liquidator receives unless the matter is properly cared for now.


James Alexander Robb: I think we must trust something to the honesty or honour of the liquidator.


Henry Herbert Stevens: This is not a question of
honesty or honour. I think my hon. friend's suggestion is right; in fact, I am sure it is, because his legal knowledge is much greater than mine. The reason I raise the point is that liquidators are undoubtedly entitled to a commission upon funds that pass through their hands as liquidators. That is the law. It should, therefore, be stated in this bill that no liquidator's fees are to be paid in respect of

Home Bank
this particular sum. The idea of a liquidator's fees is this. The liquidator goes in and takes the assets of a defunct institution, in this case the bank, and he is supposed, by his knowledge of business, to realize on those assets in the best interest of the creditors. That is his business and he is entitled to fees for that service. This is not a service that he is rendering. This is a gift of the country to the depositors, and rather than have the liquidator deduct his fees from this amount, I would sooner see them paid out of the Finance department or some other department. A provision to this effect could be inserted at the end of clause 5:
Provided, however, that no fees or commission shall b? paid out of the said sum to any persons for the distribution of same.
I am not quite certain that the form of the amendment is as complete as might be desired, but I think that would cover it. Perhaps the Minister of Justice would help me out in this.


Ernest Lapointe: I think the draft is rather good.


James Alexander Robb: I will accept that.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I will move that that be added as an amendment at the end of clause 5.


Mr. BROWN:: I have very little knowledge of these matters, but it occurs to me that the distribution of that amount of money will involve a good deal of work on some person and something should be paid for the work.


Mr. BAXTER:: It is only a question of writing cheques for larger amounts. The number of people is the same.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The liquidator is going to distribute a dividend of ten per cent, it is estimated, and all he has to do is to enlarge his amount. He takes his ten per cent, say $2,000,000, he adds to it the $5,000,000, and he distributes pro rata the whole amount of $7,000,000.


James Alexander Robb: I do not think this will add anything to the expense.


Mr. McBRIDE:: \Yhat about the stamps that are put on each of these cheques?


James Alexander Robb: That will be an expense against the estate.


Mr. SUTHERLAND:: Is it the intention of the minister to have this itemized statement regarding the expenditures, so far, of the liquidator placed upon Hansard?


James Alexander Robb: I can put it upon Hansard now. If my hon. friends so desire, I will place on Hansard, for the information of hon. members so that they will have it on hand to-morrow morning, the statement that was sent to Mr. Lee, chairman of the Home Bank Depositors' Relief Association, and signed by Mr. Clarkson. The statement is as follows:
November 26, 1924.
W. T. J. Lee, Esq.,
Chairman of the Home Bank Depositors' Relief Association.
Dear Mr. Lee :
You have informed me that it is necessary for the national committee representing Home Bank depositors to be informed as to the extent of the realization to date upon the assets of the Home Bank of Canada; also to be informed-so far as can presently be determined-as to what the prospects for payment of a further dividend to depositors are, including my estimate of what the assets remaining to be realized are likely to produce.
In reply to your enquiry I would state that the amount realized to date from assets of the bank which have been liquidated is approximately $6,496,896, which sum has been disposed of in the manner following,
namely;
Paid to creditors-
(a)	Circulation redeemed	$1,610,550(b)	Payments made on account of secured and preferred cflaims.. ..	383,610(c)	Dividend paid to creditors-25 percent	
3,845,628(d) Advances to Home Bank Depositors' Relief Association on account of future dividends payable to creditors, as per white slips of assignment	
19,802(e)	Interest paid upon circulation, preferred claims and 'borowings necessary to pay dividend of 25 per cent	
125,227

Advances made in protection of unrealized assets	 226,203
Costs of operation of Home Bank of Canada in period between the date of suspension (August 17, 1923) and date of winding-up order (October
8, 1923)	 86,724
Salaries of staff, rentals and general expenses in connection with liquidation for period between October 8, 1923 and November	24, 1924..	96,043
Payments in respect of curator's and [DOT]liquidator's remuneration and law
costs to November	24,	1924	 52,409
Cash on hand	 50,700
$6,496,896	*
Relative to the above expenditures and for your further information I would state that-
(1)	All circulation of the Home Bank of Canada has been redeemed except $113,615 thereof which is still outstanding-as against this outstanding circulation the sum of $103,000 stands deposited with the Dominion government.
(2)	Preferred claims outstanding and still unpaid at this date include an amount of $49,916 due to the Dominion government, and $1,140,275 due to the
Home Bank

province of Ontario. The claim of the Dominion government will be liquidated forthwith while payments of aproximately $168,000 were recently made to the province of Ontario.
(3)	All borrowings from Canadian banks to permit payment of 25 per cent dividend disbursed to creditors on December 22, 1923, have been fully liquidated, while $3,875,200 deposited with Canadian banks for the purpose of meeting such dividend has all been withdrawn by creditors except to the extent of approximately $100,000 which remains deposited in various banks subject to withdrawal by creditors.
(4)	The advances of $226,203 made by the estate m protection of assets have been largely applied to the liquidation of prior liens and the payment of taxes and interest. The sums so advanced are expected to be recovered in full.
(5)	Following the suspension of the Home Bank of Canada and until such time as it could be determined whether the bank would be able to resume business or must be wound up, it was necessary to maintain the branches of the Home Bank under control of the board of directors of the bank but subject to the supervision of the curator and within such period, which commenced on August 18, 1923, and ended on October 8, 1923, when the bank was ordered to be wound up, the curator was without power to dose the branches of the bank. The pay-roll of the bank at the time amounted to $416,000 per annum and rental charges to $188,000 per annum, and at such rates wages and rents payable for the period amounted to $86,724.
(6)	Following the granting of the order for winding up the bank on October 8, 1923, steps were taken by the interim liquidators to reduce the operating expenses, but the heavy burden and expenses could not immediately be avoided due to the necessity of obtaining much essential information. Thereafter, however, the staff was consistently reduced and premises given up until at the present time expenses are at a minimum. Wages of employees, rentals of bank premises and general expenses since the date of liquidation have under the above circumstances amounted to $96,043.
In addition to the information above set forth you have asked that I give you my estimate of what I consider to be the probable realizable value of the assets remaining to be liquidated. You will appreciate that it is very difficult to make such an estimate as a number of the assets are the subject matter of litigation, while amounts likely to be recovered from others are very largely and in some cases entirely dependent upon various contingencies and the future prosperity of the country, I have, however, made a careful computation of what I believe is likely to be recovered, and so far as can humanly be seen, the assets remaining to be realized should produce between $2,750,000 and $3,000,000 as a minimum and $4,000,000 to $4,500,000 as a maximum. Out of the amount so to be realized, however, preferred claims of approximately $1,250,000 have first to ^>e pafd, also the costs of important litigation now in force and those incident to liquidation.
In these circumstances unless the improbable shall happen or unexpected success be met with in the realization of the assets remaining, I do not feel that creditors are safe in relying upon the receipt of a further dividend of more than 10 per cent, and then only if the litigation hereinafter mentioned shall be determined in favor of the bank.
Certain legal actions of outstanding importance to the bank are now in force or about to be commenced, and they consist of-

(a)	Action taken by the liquidators of the bank to compel payment of double liability upon capital stock of the bank where holders thereof deny responsibility.
(b)	Action taken by the liquidators against the directors of the Home Bank of Canada for misfeasance.
(c)	Actions about to be taken by the liquidators of the bank as a test case to compel the payment of cheques deposited in the bank on the day of suspension, payment of such cheques having been refused by the makers thereof.
(d)	Action about to be taken by depositors against the liquidators of the bank in test cases for the return to them of moneys deposited in the bank shortly preceding its suspension, on the ground that the bank was insolvent at the time to the knowledge of its directors and unable to properly receive such deposits.
If the action brought by the liquidators in connection with double liability shall be determined in favor of the shareholders w'ho are contesting the right of the liquidators to recover, the bank will probably require tv) refund upwards of $250,000 already collected on double liability and it will also lose not less than $250,000 more which could be collected from such shareholders if held to be liable. In the event that the liquidators shall succeed in their action for misfeasance against the directors and also be found to be entitled to payment of the cheques deposited in the Home Bank of Canada on August 17, 1923, the estate will probably recover several hundred thousand dollars from such surces. On the other hand should the bank fail in such actions, my estimate of probable recoveries from the assets of the bank still in hand would be substantially reduced.
In the further event that creditors who made deposits with the bank within a limited period prior to its suspension shall be found entitled to recover the same, the estate of the Home Bank of Canada will probably require to pay between $250,000 and $400,000 to such creditors, and this amount would have to be disbursed out of the estate in priority to dividends to creditors.
Under the above circumstances it must be apparent that it is impossible at this juncture to prepare a statement which will with any degree of definiteness indicate the ultimate result of the liquidation or the amount of dividend still to accrue to creditors. The best estimate which I can give is that with reasonable success met with in the litigation above mentioned a further dividend of upwards of 10 per cent should be payable, but I wish to make it clear to you that this amount would probably be substantially reduced if the litigation above mentioned shall be determined against the bank to any important extent.
Yours truly,
G. T. Clarkson.
I have in my hand a memorandum that I quite overlooked, that the liquidators have offered to distribute this money without one cent of cost to the depositors or to the government.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: In view of that letter
I think the amendment is unnecessary. The liquidator is certainly of the highest standing, and there would be no question that he would do exactly what he said he would do.


James Alexander Robb: I am in the hands of hon.
gentlemen opposite who raised the issue.
JUKE 9, 1925	4027
.	Home Bank


Henry Herbert Stevens: We simply wanted to
make certain of that point. I beg to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment withdrawn.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 6-Payment to representatives of deceased persons.
John Babington Macaulay Baxter: I would suggest to the
minister that there be added to this clause- it is not a very good place, but it is as good as any that can be found-language something like this:
No assignment or transfer past or future of moneys to be paid under this act or of the claims under section 3 shall be recognized by the liquidator.
I understand that last night when I was not here there was some discussion in the House in regard to this point, and the intention of the country, I believe, is that such moneys as are given shall be given to the sufferers and that nobody shall make anything by speculating in the claims. The legislation may be all right as it is, but it ought to be emphasized that the liquidator is to deal with the claimants that he finds under section 3 and not with any assignment or transfer from them.


Leon Johnson Ladner: Some objection may be
raised to an arbitrary restriction of that kind. It is possible that some people have made assignments for proper considerations, and some discretionary power should rest with the liquidator so that he may be able to accept an assignment of that kind if it is bona fide. To enact a restriction which is entirely prohibitory is liable to embarrass people who are justly entitled to the money.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: I do not think it would
have that effect. If some person has unwisely made a transfer it is possible that the court might give relief because of some oppression. But if a man has bona fide bought for a fair consideration, the proposed amendment will not deprive him of anything; when the claimant gets the money from the liquidator he will owe that money to the person to whom he sold.


Leon Johnson Ladner: But suppose he has gone
to a foreign country and his whereabouts are unknown?	[DOT]


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: I would not have the
liquidator deal with anyone except those who are on the books of the bank. If the depositor has left for foreign lands and no one can find him the liquidator will not easily get the money to him. If some one has
bought a claim from a dishonest man he may have to face that man's dishonesty; but where an honest man gets the money there is nothing to prevent him from handing it over. I do not want to see the liquidator made the instrument of the transfer.


James Alexander Robb: I was impressed with the argument that every precaution should be taken to make sure that the money would not go to speculators, and I have discussed this question with the officer of the department who has been looking carefully into it, and he shares the view of my hon. friend (Mr. Ladner). He tells me that there have been some perfectly legitimate transfers and he advises that we do nothing to tie them up. But he knows of no case in which there was speculation of any kind. I think my hon. friend from St. John (Mr. Baxter) might very well trust the liquidator to look after this; I am satisfied he will watch it closely.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: I do not care whether the
clause is adopted or not; but if the liquidator undertakes to investigate transfers he is adding immensely to his own work.


James Alexander Robb: There are very few of them.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: If there are very few of
them they can look after themselves. If on the other hand the liquidator is directed to deal simply with the people who are on the books of the concern, that can in no way invalidate any claim that is against any of those people. It may be that legislation of this character is not necessary at all; I do not know the circumstances, and I do not care whether the clause is adopted or not, but I do not think that the people of Canada would like to have public money disbursed as a reward to speculators. One of the most unpleasant things we have witnessed in many years occurred after the South African war when parliament gave certain land scrip to men who had served in that war. At that time the speculators bought up this scrip for a tithe of its value and the country really made a present to them rather than to the soldiers whom it was intended to help. Possibly there is no danger of that kind in this connection. If the minister is of this opinion he may put through the legislation, so far as I am concerned.


Leon Johnson Ladner: There is nothing in the
bill to prohibit the liquidator from paying to a person acting under power of attorney. An attorney under power of attorney has every right to receive the money and give proper discharge. In the case of any transaction already completed, where an assignment has been made in a bona fide manner and for a
Home Bank

proper consideration, it seems to me wrong in principle for parliament now to interpose a retroactive prohibitory clause suhh as is suggested here.


James Alexander Robb: With the assurance that the
liquidator will watch this provision carefully, perhaps my hon. friend (Mr. Baxter) will withdraw his amendment.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: I have not yet formally moved an amendment, and if the minister does not want it I will not press it. I do not agree with my hon. friend (Mr. Ladner), for the reason that the money that parliament provides is not somelthing to which any of these people have a right. They had nothing to assign except a chance of getting some small percentage from the bank, and it is possible that assignments may have been made on the basis of what the assets of the Home Bank would render. To that the assignee is entitled and he should get it. I am not saying that anything should be invalidated, but I do say that a man who perhaps bought a possible five per cent dividend should' not be entitled to receive a one hundred per cent dividend on money which otherwise would be adequate for securing only five per cent. If the minister wants to leave that possibility open he can do so and take the responsibility; I have only been suggesting what would help to make the legislation perfect. Possibly the minister does not wanft the legislation to be complete and I will not force on him the suggestion I have offered.


Mr. CHURCH:: I think the minister should submit to parliament, before this bill becomes law, a complete list of the 60,000 odd depositors, together with other information of that character showing to whom, where and in what manner this money, amounting to nearly $6,000,000, will be distributed. Part of the stock, I understand, was sold by one Daly and distributed out west. The minister has the report of the liquidator, Mr. E. R. C. Clarkson, showing who the 60,000 depositors, are and the country is entitled to know how many deposits there are of over $10,000 and the names and how many under that sum and so on. _ The public should be satisfied that nobody is being discriminated against for the benefit of others. Further, what assignments and hypothecations have been made?


James Alexander Robb: So far as I know there are
very few assignments. The intention is that the money shall be paid out to the depositors. The committee has discussed for half an hour measures to prevent speculators from getting the funds of the depositors; and while there

is no one whom I would rather please than my hon. friend (Mr. Church), it must be obvious that if I granted his request and gave the information for which he asks it would simply enable the speculators to find out who the depositors are, thus serving their purpose. It is not in the public interest to do this.


Thomas Langton Church: Did not the liquidator
give the Acting Minister of Finance, before the bill was prepared, a list of the depositors, the amount of money deposited, the sums over and above $10,000, and the number of assignments that had been made?


James Alexander Robb: There is no reference to any
assignment.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Section 7 agreed to.
Bill reported.

[Stage Direction]
The House in committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
Mail subsidies and steamship subventions-Pacific ocean-Canada and New Zealand on the Pacific ocean, service between, $100,000.
Hen. T. A. LOW (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Chairman, this subsidy is
the same as last year. The contract is for five years, the payments are monthly and there is a monthly service. Our imports from New Zealand last year amounted to $2,331,185, against exports of $12,888,672. The contract is with the Union Steamship Company of New Zealand.


Mr. GARDINER:: How long ha3 this contract to run?


Thomas Andrew Low: Until the end of March, 1929.


Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: What is the income of :he private steamship line to which the subsidy has been paid?


Thomas Andrew Low: We receive the statements in
confidence and are not supposed to reveal their contents.


Robert Gardiner: You are not supposed
to tell too much?


Thomas Andrew Low: No, unless you are commanded to do so by a special committee of the House.


Edward Joseph Garland: Mr. Chairman, I do not wish the minister to break any confidence, but may I suggest that we are here as trustees of the people, and are being asked to again vote a large subsidy to a private s'eamship firm. The minister is unwilling, -and I do not blame him in this case-to

Supply-Trade and Commerce
give information as to the net or gross earnings of this company. The company may not need any subsidy at all, it may be carrying on a very profitable trade indeed. How much of this subsidy is for trading purposes, and how much for (he carriage of mails?


Thomas Andrew Low: 
Robert Gardiner: How many boats are on this service, and what is their tonnage?


Thomas Andrew Low: There are two boats, one of
13,000	tons and the other of 22,000 tons.


Mr. CALDWELL:: Has the government
any control of rates on these boats; how is it exercised; and what have been the customary rates on account of the subsidy?


Thomas Andrew Low: The government have control
of the rates. Any company receiving a subsidy submits its rates to the department for approval.


Robert Gardiner: How do the rates compare with the Conference line rates?


Thomas Andrew Low: The subsidy is paid for the
purpose of securing a regular service between Canada and New Zealand, and also for the carriage of the mails.


Robert Gardiner: The minister stated a
moment ago that he controlled the rates. How do the rates on this line controlled by him compare with the Conference rates?


Thomas Andrew Low: I understand that the same
rates are charged from all Pacific coast ports. If there are any complaints as to the rates, we investigate them.


Robert Gardiner: Then the minister to
all intents and purposes does not control the rates?


Thomas Andrew Low: 
Edward Joseph Garland: Mr. Chairman I take exception to the last statement. I confess the minister is very adroit. A moment ago his deputy gave him information, and he answered a question of mine to the effect that the mail service was worth $68,000 to the Post Office Department. But will he tell the committee now the cost of handling the mail?-not what it is worth to the Post Office Department; We want to know the cost, of transporting that mail.


Thomas Andrew Low: We have only the statement
of the Post Office Department.


William Charles Good: Does that mean that the mail is carried free?	.


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes.


James Shaver Woodsworth: 
Thomas Andrew Low: This is the only passenger
service between Canada and New Zealand, and if we cut off the subsidy we might not have a regular passenger service.


James Shaver Woodsworth: The minister says
we "might, not have", but he does not bring forward any proof that we would not have.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The question of the hon.
member (Mr. Woodsworth) is a perfectly reasonable one. This is a competing service with the service from San Francisco to New Zealand and Australia, and without doubt if the subsidy were withdrawn the service would be discontinued. According to information I have received from time to time, even including the subsidy this service has never been what you might call a paying service; the earnings, if I remember aright, are around five per cent including the subsidy. The service rendered to Canada consists of several things. First, it is the mail service, which is of vital importance to the business men of Canada as well as to the people generally. Second, it provides a passenger service. Now, the passenger service is of far more importance to Canada than is involved in merely taking Canadian passengers from New Zealand, because it gives to our railways, the Canadian National and the Canadian Pacific, a large

Supply-Trade and Commerce
part of the through traffic from Great Britain across Canada to New Zealand. This line is more popular for that class of business than the San Francisco line, and the consequence is that a large number of Australian and New Zealand business men are constantly passing through Canada both ways, using these vessels. During the past year a larger vessel and improved passenger service have been put on, largely to take care of this British traffic, and the advantage to Canada will be very great. We sell to New Zealand and to Australia a very much larger amount of goods than they sell to us, and, this trade we have built up largely through this service from our Pacific ports, established some years ago. These are, offhand, some of the advantages that accrue to Canada because of this subsidy. In my estimation-and I say this with a good deal of caution-this subsidy is well warranted and pays Canada a handsome return.


William Charles Good: How many of the Canadian
Government Merchant Marine ships are engaged in business between the Australasian countries and our Pacific ports?


Henry Herbert Stevens: The minister will pardon me if I give a little information; local knowledge perhaps gives me a little advantage in that regard. The Canadian Government Merchant Marine ships are cargo ships, largely carrying paper, machinery and the like from Canada to the Orient, and very often they go under ballast to Singapore or Hong Kong and take cargo from there to a United States port, or part to Canada and part to the United States. These vessels which are 5. p.m. subsidized run directly from the Canadian port to the New Zealand ports; there is no competition between the two. We have quite a number of Canadian Government Merchant Marine ships on the Pacific, but they do not run always to the same ports; they are directed wherever the cargo is most available.


Edward Joseph Garland: How many passengers were carried last year?


Thomas Andrew Low: In 1924, 7,318 ; 3,534 in and 3,784 out.


Edward Joseph Garland: What is the speed of these boats, and how many passengers can each of them accommodate?


Thomas Andrew Low: The speed is eighteen knots. Each boat is capable of carrying 800 passengers.


Mr. McQUARRIE:: There can be no doubt
that the service rendered iby this line is a very splendid one considering the number of
TMr. Stevens.]
passengers it has been receiving. I had the privilege recently of taking a trip on one of these ships, and I can commend very highly the service given. It would be a great mistake to do away with the subsidy and cause this line to take off the ships running from Canada to New Zealand and Australia and thus compel the people on the Pacific coast, and others who make that voyage, to go to San Francisco or other American ports. There is a subsidy to a line between eastern ports and South Africa, but there is no subsidy for a service from the Pacific coast ports to South Africa. A great deal of business which is now going elsewhere could be done by Canada with South Africa if there was a subsidized line between western Canadian ports and that country. I believe a subsidy is well invested if we can show that it has the effect of increasing business. I am strongly in favour, therefor, of this subsidy being continued. I consider that this steamship company is doing good work and that the service rendered is of great advantage to Canada.


Mr. LOVIE:: There are two questions I would like to ask which apply pretty well to every item here. They are, on what basis is the subsidy fixed, and Who fixes it?


Thomas Andrew Low: The subsidy is fixed by agreement between the contractor and the government.


Robert Gardiner: Is that the only basis?


William James Lovie: I asked how the subsidy was arrived at, what was the basis.


Thomas Andrew Low: There is no fixed basis. We try to come to an arrangement in order to secure the very best service at the lowest possible cost.


Mr. MILLAR:: Is it customary to call for tenders in these matters?
Mr. LOW We call for tenders in nearly all cases.


William James Lovie: In arriving at the subsidy, do you take into consideration whether the boat is carrying a heavy load, whether it carries valuable freight, whether it is over-manned or not? Just what is taken into consideration in arriving at the subsidy?


Thomas Andrew Low: We consider the service to be performed. The company submits an annual financial statement to the department, and if . we are of the opinion that the contractor is not in need of the full amount of the subsidy, we reduce it, as I have reduced many subsidies since I took over the department.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Mr. LEWIS:: Are tenders called for each year?


Thomas Andrew Low: In this case, there is a five-year contract.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I just want to state a little more clearly my objection. It is not to this particular service; I think the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) made out a very good case probably with regard to the need of this particular line. But I think it is anomalous that we in this House should be asked to take the word of the hon. member for Vancouver Centre that the company pays about five per cent as a basis on which to render a decision in this matter. I am not doubting the word of the hon. member, who probably in this respect is very well informed, but I am saying that that information ought to come from the minister, and come officially. We ought to know the basi^ on which we are working. As it is to-day, so far as we are concerned, it is purely an arbitrary amount the minister fixes with the company. If we are to be asked to give an endorsation of any proposition of this kind we ought to have very definite information as to the service rendered and as to the revenues of the company. When we suggest here something in the form of restriction, we are told we must not have paternalistic legislation. I would suggest that this is paternalistic with a vengeance if we are to give here, there, and yonder, to various enterprises subsidies to foster their business when we have not the slightest information as to the necessity for so doing.


Thomas Andrew Low: I would have no objection to showing any member of the House the financial statement of these companies in private, but I do not think it would be fair to the companies to present to the House the financial statements of their business.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Would the minister be willing to allow these estimates to come before a committee in some such way as the railway estimates have been dealt with in the last two years, where they might be more or less freely discussed?


Mr. KELLNER:: We are told that there is a treaty coming with Australia. Might that not offset the need of this subsidy on this particular route?


Thomas Andrew Low: The treaty is not before the House yet. When it does come before the House we may find that perhaps it may be necessary to improve the service.


Henry Herbert Stevens: If you withdraw this, you would have to pay for the carriage of the mails in any case.


Edward Joseph Garland: What was the total cost of this subsidy to the Dominion from the commencement?


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: While the minister is getting that information, would he tell us the name of the company thait performs this service, and whether it is a member of the North Atlantic conference.
Mr, LOW: It is the Union Steamship Company of New Zealand. I understand they are not members of 'the North Atlantic conference.


Edward Joseph Garland: Are they
members of the Pacific conference?


Thomas Andrew Low: I understand not. Since 1914 up to the end of 1924 there has been paid under this contract SI,620,184.


Edward Joseph Garland: Was the service first inaugurated in 1914?


Thomas Andrew Low: The service was inaugurated in 1904, but we have only the records here from 1914.


Edward Joseph Garland: Would the minister have any objection to getting those figures for me?


Thomas Andrew Low: Not at all.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Victoria and San Francisco, steam service between, $3,000.
Mr. MoBRIIDE: I move that this item be struck out.
The CHAIRMAN:: It cannot be struck out. It can be reduced by amendment.


Robert Gardiner: What is the explanation of this vote?


Thomas Andrew Low: This is a service that was agreed to in 1871, when British Columbia 'came into confederation. Part of the arrangement made at that time was that we would establish a service to San Fran-oisoo.


Arthur John Lewis: I would ask the hon. member for Cariboo to give his reasons why this item should be struck out.


Thomas Andrew Low: The hon. member has spoken to me several times about dropping it, but we are informed by the Justice department that it cannot be dropped without the legislature of British Columbia first passing an act relieving



Supply-Trade and Commerce
us. In the meantime I would suggest to the hon. member that the item be allowed to stand in the estimates, and. if the legislature of British Columbia puts that act through, we will not pay over the subsidy.


Robert Forke: Is this arrangement incorporated in the British North America Act?


Thomas Andrew Low: It is by arrangement.


Robert Gardiner: Does the legislature of British Columbia propose to pass this legida-tion?


Thomas Andrew Low: It is 'proposed by the Department of Trade andi Commerce. We thought we could save this $3,000, which is only a trifle in the earnings of the company, which is making money. We thought we could drop it, but we found from' the Justice department that the only way in which that could be done would be for British Columbia to first pass an act relieving us from this necessity.


Robert Gardiner: Has the matter been
referred to the provincial government? And what was their reply?


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes. They are going to pass
an act.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Victoria and West Coast Vancouver Island-steam service between, $15,000.
Thomas Andrew Low: This is a service between Vancouver and the west coast of Vancouver island. The contractors are the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. The contract is for one year, for three complete round trips each month, with the usual clause that the mails be carried free.


Robert Gardiner: Both freight and passenger service?


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Were tenders called for in this instance?


Thomas Andrew Low: The Canadian Pacific Railway has been running this service for many years and the contract has been renewed from year to year.


James Shaver Woodsworth: When were the last tenders called for?


Thomas Andrew Low: My official tells me that the
Canadian Pacific Railway has had the contract for about ten to fifteen years at least. If the service is satisfactory and we believe the company is not making a large profit, we renew the contract from year to year.
IMr. Low.]


Robert Gardiner: Has the minister any
information as to the profits the company are making?


Thomas Andrew Low: They submit a statement that they are not making any profit on this service.


Robert Gardiner: That is unusual.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Vancouver and Northern ports of British Columbia- steam service between, $24,800.
Thomas Andrew Low: The contractors are the Union Steamship Company of British Columbia. The contract is for one year and the services are regular sailings throughout the year, two calls at each port weekly, and the usual clause for carrying mails free.


Robert Gardiner: Is the service profitable to the company which has the contract?


Thomas Andrew Low: This company is making a
small profit according to their , statement.


Robert Gardiner: What would the minister term a "small" profit?


Thomas Andrew Low: Four or five per cent I think
would be a small profit.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Baddeck and Iona-steam service between, $10,500.
Thomas Andrew Low: This service is performed between Baddeck and Iona on the Bras d'Or lakes. The contractors are the Baddeck Steamship Company. The contract is for one year, two round trips daily except Sunday during the open season.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Charlottetown, Victoria and Holliday's wharf, steam service between, $1,000.
Thomas Andrew Low: The contractors for this service are the Charlottetown Steamship Company, and the contract is for one year. This contract has been in existence for sometime and renewed from year to year.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Does that mean it goes on indefinitely, without any reason for its renewal? Are no tenders called for? Have they a permanent hold on the contract?


Thomas Andrew Low: As long as the service is satisfactorily performed by the contractor and the department is of the opinion that the contractors are not making too much profit, say four or five per cent, we renew the contract for year to year.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Does the minister mean to say there is not more than four or five per cent being made by this company?

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Thomas Andrew Low: This company, according to their statement, made a profit of two and a half per cent.


Arthur John Lewis: It would save a lot of questioning perhaps if the minister could make a statement covering these items. Has the minister the general information with regard to every one of these items which seems to be satisfactory to the department, and is the amount of the contract based upon that service?


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes we have that information.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Grand Manan and the Mainland-steam service between, $20,000.
Henry Herbert Stevens: There was an increase in the subsidy last year, based upon an improved service. Will the minister give us the name of the vessel used in this service, the company operating it and the service rendered?


Thomas Andrew Low: This contract has only been renewed for six months. We called for tenders last year and this was the lowest tender. We have been requested to put on a better service, and we have again called for tenders this year. There was one tender this year from the same company, for the same amount.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Will the minister give us the name of the compnay and the name of the boat?


Thomas Andrew Low: The Grand Manan Steamboat Company, the names of the steamer is the Grand Manan.	[DOT]


Mr. SPENCE:: How many boats has that company for this service?


Thomas Andrew Low: Just the one boat.


David Spence: Have you any other boats?


Thomas Andrew Low: No.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Is this not the company
that was to put on a new vessel last year for this particular service, and was a new contract not entered into for the purpose of meeting that demand?


Thomas Andrew Low: My hon. friend must be mistaken.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Halifax and bay St. Lawrence, steam service between, $2,400.
Thomas Andrew Low: This service is performed by the Mayflower Shipping Company. The contract is for one season, during the season of 2574
navigation, and it contains the usual clause for the carrying of mail.


Robert Gardiner: Is there any real
necessity for this subsidy?


Thomas Andrew Low: Including the subsidy this company made a profit of slightly over $1,000. If the subsidy were cut out, they would have made a loss of around $1,400.


Robert Gardiner: Under those circumstances, it seems to me that this service is not required if there is such a small amount of business. I will move that item 174 be struck out.


George Newcombe Gordon: It cannot be struck out,
because that is a negative vote. It may be cut down, leaving a dollar or two.


Thomas Andrew Low: It is the only communication
between Halifax and these ports.


Donald Ferdinand Kellner: In regard to your ruling, Mr. Chairman, I would like to call your attention to Bourinot at page 427. As regards discussion in committee of supply, he says:
But any motion to reduce a grant, or to strike it out of the estimates altogether, will be always in order.
I hardly understand what that statement means if your ruling is correct.


George Newcombe Gordon: I do not intend to
make any further explanation than this, that a vote may be reduced to an amount leaving a part of it, by an amendment to cut it down, or there may be a number of items in one vote that will be reduced by striking out certain items in it and reducing the general amount. But the whole vote cannot be struck out by an amendment because that is a negative vote, and a vote can be taken on the resolution. Any hon. member can ask that a vote be taken on the resolution.


Robert Gardiner: I do not question your ruling personally, but in view of the statement made by the hon. member for East Edmonton, (Mr. Kellner) read from Bourinot, it would seem that, perhaps, your ruling is not quite well taken.


George Newcombe Gordon: I have ruled. If the hon. member wishes to appeal against iL-


Robert Gardiner: In view of the statement which was read from Bourinot-


George Newcombe Gordon: That has not any
application to an item of supply of this character.


Robert Gardiner: Would you care to cite the authority?


George Newcombe Gordon: I am citing the
authority now. The authority I am giving is the authority that I say that the citation given

Supply-Trade and Commerce
by the hon. member for East Edmonton can be qualified and distinguished. I am saying that it does not apply in this case. If it is the desire of hon. members that a vote should not pass they can vote against it. You cannot have an amendment that is a complete negative. The machinery that is provided is a vote that this shall not carry. There is not provision for an amendment that this vote be struck out in its entirety.


Arthur John Lewis: Is this a necessary mail
service?


Thomas Andrew Low: It is a freight service.


John Millar: In connection with this
vote and any others, could the minister read us the information actually gathered, as to service rendered, the quantity of freight handled and so on? If this is passed over lightly, it may be that some subsidies are granted year after year after the services have entirely ceased.


Thomas Andrew Low: The number of tons carried
last year was 1,520 tons. They performed six round trips.


Robert Gardiner: I rise to a point of
order. I have here a copy of Bourinot and I read from page 427:
The committee of Supply cannot increase a grant which has been recommended by a message from the Governor General. It is also irregular to increase any item in a resolution. But any motion to reduce a grant, or to strike it out of the estimates altogether, will always be in order.
Does that not refer to the committee of the Whole when we are in Supply?


George Newcombe Gordon: What I say is this,
that by an amendment this vote can be reduced to practically nothing-a dollar left. The other machinery that is provided is for a vote to be taken that this vote do not carry, and it can be struck out of the estimates by that particular machinery. But it cannot be struck out by an amendment to strike it out. That must be done by a vote of the committee that it do not now pass.


Robert Gardiner: The question seems to be whether Bourinot is correct or not.


George Newcombe Gordon: It is not a question
whether Bourinot is correct or not, and the hon. member knows it; it is simply a case of reflection on the ruling of the Chair.


Robert Gardiner: No. I am quoting from Bourinot.


George Newcombe Gordon: The hon. member can call for a vote on this item, and if the vote is lost, the item may not pass.
[The Chairman.]


Robert Gardiner: I am more particular
in regard to this matter in order to know exactly where the House stands as regards rules and regulations, whether we are going to follow authorities like Bourinot or from what source we are going to take our authority.


George Newcombe Gordon: The hon. member's
course is to appeal from the ruling of the Chair.


Robert Gardiner: That is the point at
issue.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Halifax, South Cape Breton and Bras d'Or lake ports -steam service between, $5,000.
James Shaver Woodsworth: It is very difficult
for those of us who are not familiar with the details of the coast line to understand all these services; but there are a great many, and according to the information supplied to the minister some of the lines are not paying. Has any general survey been taken as to the actual needs of the coast services at the present time?
I believe, since some of the lines were first established, railroad connections have been made, and we now have traffic by automobile and in other ways. Has there been in recent years any definite general survey by the department to find out the actual traffic needs up and down the coast of Nova Scotia?


Thomas Andrew Low: We have an inspector living
in the Maritime provinces who makes one trip each year in -connection with each service and reports to the department regarding the needs, and so forth.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mulgrave and Canso-steam service between, $13,500.
Mr. STEVENS How long has this contract been in force?
Thomas Andrew Low: The contractors are Messrs.
Hugh Cann & Son, Ltd., of Yarmouth, and the contract is for one year. They got the original contract about ten years ago. It is renewed from year to year.


David Spence: Do they -carry both freight and passengers?


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes.


David Spence: Why not give us the details? We are giving away a lot of money foi nothing. Soon you will have to come to the rescue of business men and pay their indebtedness when -they cannot make ends meet, if you are going to give assistance to every steamship line that wants money.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Thomas Andrew Low: They make 302 trips, they carry 3.676 .passengers, 3,426 tons of freight and 5.894 bags of mail.


David Spence: Do the .passengers pay any fare at all or the merchants any freight, or are we paying the whole thing?


Thomas Andrew Low: Oh, no, the passengers pay their fare.


David Spence: Why not make the company charge more?


Thomas Andrew Low: My hon. friend knows-


David Spence: The minister need not try to blame those who preceded him; he is in the office now.


Thomas Andrew Low: My hon. friend anticipated what I did not intend saying.


David Spence: Two wrongs do not make a right, you know.


Thomas Andrew Low: I was not going to argue anything of the kind at all; I simply wanted to point out that there is no railway service to supplement this one.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mulgrave and Guysboro, calling at intermediate ports -steam service between, $9,500.
Henry Herbert Stevens: Two years ago this vote was $7,500. What is the reason for the increase?


Thomas Andrew Low: It was increased in 1922 because the contractors informed the department that they could not carry on the service at the figure they were then receiving and that they would have to discontinue.


John Millar: Did the inspector make a report in that connection?


Thomas Andrew Low: This is a new concern this year; the company that had the contract last year went bankrupt.


William James Lovie: What are the inspector's duties in relation .to these subsidized ships?


Thomas Andrew Low: The inspector travels on the ships and reports upon the services being performed, the passenger and freight traffic, and so on, and he cheeks up the statements of the companies.
Mr. LOVIiE: Do they ever observe whether any of the ships are over-manned or not?


Thomas Andrew Low: The company would take care of that; they would not want to carry more help than was necessary.


William James Lovie: It is not more than two weeks since a group of the members in this part of the House took a trip from Pictou to Charlottetown on a boat that was not at all large. In conversation with a man on the wharf at Charlottetown the day after our arrival there I was informed that there were twenty-two of a crew, and that seemed a large number to me. I questioned him on this point and he said that half a dozen men were sufficient but seeing that the ship was subsidized it really did not matter.


Mr. DUFF:: Was that the Hochelaga?


Robert Forke: Yes.


William Duff: Anybody who told my hon.
friend that the Hochelaga could be manned by six men ought to go into the backwoods of Prince Edward Island and hang himself. Twenty-two men are not an adequate complement for that steamer. The Hochelaga is owned by a Jew and I have never heard of any Jew anywhere who would employ too many men.


William James Lovie: I was only stating the information that was given me.


William Duff: It was not very reliable.


Arthur John Lewis: Is there not a board of trade regulation requiring that there shall be a stated minimum crew? There is in the Old Land.


Thomas Andrew Low: I do not think there is in this
country.


Edward Joseph Garland: Is it not a fact that according to an act of this parliament a certain number of seamen must go with a ship of a certain size?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Newcastle, Neguac and Escuminac, calling at intermediate points on the Miramichi river and bay-steam service between, $4,000.
Robert Gardiner: How does the minister account for the reduction this year? A reduction is something so unusual that an explanation would, I am sure, be appreciated.


Thomas Andrew Low: A smaller steamer was put on
and we felt that the subsidy should be reduced.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Pelee island and the mainland-steam service between, $11,000.
Thomas Andrew Low: The contract for this service
is with the Windsor and Pelee Island Steamship Company and is yearly. Six trips a week are made during the season of navigation, and they carry mail.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


David Spence: Are tenders always called
for in connection with these subsidies?


Thomas Andrew Low: Not if the contractor is giving
satisfaction.


David Spence: Does the minister object
to a lower tender simply because the other fellow is giving satisfaction?


Thomas Andrew Low: In that case we would reduce
his subsidy.


David Spence: The man giving the lowest tender should get the contract.


Thomas Andrew Low: If we feflt the service could be performed at a lower figure, and some responsible person made an offer, we would ask the contractor to reduce his figure.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Pictou, Murray harbour, and Georgetown-steam service between, $4,000.
Robert Gardiner: Is this service performed under contract?


Thomas Andrew Low: Last year only $3,500 was spent out of the amount voted, and we accordingly reduced the estimate this year to $4,000. The contractor is J. W. Smith of Pictou, and his contract is for one year.


Robert Forke: Does it include mail service?


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes.


Robert Forke: What other service would
be performed along the coast?


Thomas Andrew Low: They made twenty-one trips
and carried 200 tons of freight.


Robert Forke: Is there no railway connection between these places?


Thomas Andrew Low: No.


Robert Gardiner: What is the contract
price this year?


Thomas Andrew Low: It is $4,000.


Robert Gardiner: Why is it costing $500 more this year?


Thomas Andrew Low: We put on only a temporary
service last year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Pictou, Mulgrave and Cheticamp-steam service between, $11,000.
Henry Herbert Stevens: This vote has been increased; it was $7,500 in 1922-23. What is the reason?


Thomas Andrew Low: In 1922 we called for tenders,
and the contract was awarded to tlhe lowest tenderer. It is for one yeiar during the season of navigation.
Mr. Low.]


Henry Herbert Stevens: Was a larger vessel put
on than under the previous contract?


Thomas Andrew Low: The company refused to run
the service any longer under the old contract, and we simply had to call for new tenders.


David Spence: Is the same company getting $11,000 now?


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Port Mulgrave, St. Peter's, Irish Cove and Marble Mountain, and other ports on the Bras d'Or lakes- steam service between, $10,350.
Henry Herbert Stevens: Here is another large increase over a few years ago. Is this a repetition of the situation in the last case, or is there an improved service? Is it not possible to cut these contracts back to where they were before, in view of the reduction in costs during the last year or two?


Thomas Andrew Low: The contractors made a loss
on the operation of this service, and refused to continue it at a lower figure.


Robert Gardiner: Was any effort made to get another contractor to undertake the work at the old figure?


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes, but there was no other
boat available.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Pictou, Souris and the Magdalen islands-steam service between, $50,000.
Henry Herbert Stevens: Here is an increase of
over double, from $24,000 to $50,000. This, if I recall rightly, is the case where there was supposed to be a new boat building. Will the minister now give the committee particulars of this service, including the name of the company operating it, the date of the contract and the amount of increased business done over that of 1922?


Thomas Andrew Low: This service was performed in 1921, 1922 and 1923 by the steamer R. W. Henry, operated by the Magdalen Transportation Company, Limited, of Pictou, Nova Scotia. The R. W. Henry, however, which had been accepted in 1921 before construction had been completed, was found to be unsatisfactory for the service, not being what the contractors had represented when they were tendering for the service. At the end of 1922, therefore, the contract was concelled and further tenders were called for. The R. W. Henry, however, was still the only boat offering which was in any way adapted for the service, and it had to be accepted for

Supply-Trade and Commerce
the season 1923. During 1923 tenders were again called for, and by order in council of August 17, 1923, the tender of William Fraser, Pictou, was accepted at a subsidy of 850,000 for ten years. The other two boats offering which would have been suitable for the service also asked for $50,000. The R. W. Henry was again offered, but in view of the unsatisfactory service and her lack of proper passenger accommodation she could not be considered. Mr. Fraser's tender was adjudged to be the most satisfactory, and was accepted. Construction of a new steamer, the Lovett, was commenced in Scotland in October, 1923, and although her completion was delayed by shipbuilders' strikes, the service was commenced on July 14, 1924, She has been very strongly constructed to withstand the heavy weather encountered in the gulf and also to run through light ice. She has ample passenger and freight accommodation to take care of the Magdalen islands trade. Our inspectors report that the islanders are very well satisfied with her, and consider that she is the best boat that has ever been on the service.


Henry Herbert Stevens: What business is offered on that route?


Thomas Andrew Low: In 1924 sixty-seven trips were made, 2,025 passengers were carried, 4,164 tons of freight, 3,399 bags of locked mail and 2.299 tied sacks. I might say that the islands are isolated for six months. They have a population of seven thousand.


David Spence: What is the minister's conscientious opinion about this contract for ten years? Does he not think $50,000 is an excessive price, particularly in view of the term of the contract? I should like to know what he really thinks about it himself.


Thomas Andrew Low: I thought of these poor people cut off for six months in the year and I really felt it was the duty of parliament and the people of Canada to give them the very best service.


David Spence: I am not objecting to that. Why is this service provided for ten years?


Thomas Andrew Low: In order to get a proper boat and a good service. We called for tenders.


David Spence: You thought it was good business?


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes.


Robert Gardiner: Is this a new boat in the service?


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes.


Robert Gardiner: What was the approximate cost of the boat?


Thomas Andrew Low: About $300,000.


Robert Gardiner: Is there any information as to the total income they receive from the running of the boat?


Thomas Andrew Low: The statement shows last year a profit of between three and a half and four per cent.


David Spence: Is there any check-up of
the overhead-of the amount of coal for instance-used in these vessels? Is there any means of seeing that the overhead is not put at too great a figure so that they can demand a large subsidy?


Thomas Andrew Low: We check up the vouchers of payments for coal.


Mr. MARCIL (Bcnaventure):: I would like to put in a word in favour of this subsidy.
I have had the pleasure of visiting these islands in former years and I am familiar with their situation. They are a day and a night's journey from Pictou on the Mainland cf Nova Scotia. There are 7,000 people on the island, and they are entirely cut off from communication for six months in the year. Politically they belong to the province of Quebec and the constituency of Gaspe; for ecclesiastical purposes they form part of Prince Edward Island. It is interesting to note that the Magdalen Islands are the only part of Canada where Uni'ed States and Canadian fishermen are on the same footing. The United States fisherman is allowed to go inside the three mile limit at the Magdalen Islands take on his provisions and supplies, and fish on an equality wi:h the Canadian fisherman, so that our people there sustain themselves' in competition with that business from the United States. The boat was not at all what it should be The present company went to the expense of having a special boat built in Scotland and I have heard it stated by a resident of the island that the service is now eminently satisfactory. In view of the geographical situation of the island, without any railway, without any other means of communication with the outside, it would seem that they are entitled to a decent service.


David Spence: Does the hon. member
think we are getting value for the money we are paying in this subsidy?


Charles Marcil: I had the
pleasure of leading a deputation of people
Private Bills

from the Magdalen Islands last session, made up of clergymen, business men and others, and they assured me that they now have the best service they have ever had to the Magdalen Islands.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
At six o'clock the Speaker resumed the chair and the House took recess.
After Recess
The House resumed at eight o'clock.


[Stage Direction]
Thp House in committee on Bill No. 20, respecting a patent owned by the Concrete Surfacing Machinery Company-Mr. Church- Mr. Gordon in the chair.
On section 1

Commissioner may restore patent or dismiss application.
Mr. CAHILL:: Is there any person here to explain the bill, the promoter or anyone else?


George Newcombe Gordon: This bill has been reported from the committee on Miscellaneous Private Bills. Section 2 has been struck out by the committee.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 98, for the relief of Jacob Edward Thuna.-Mr. Garland (Carleton).
Bill No. 141,for the relief of James Hooper Robins.-Mr. Clifford.
Bill No. 152, for the relief of Kathleen Mary Ricketts.-Mr. Stansell.
Bill No. 153, for the relief of Mary Alina Marguerite Peat.-Mr. Duff.
Bill No. 154, for the relief of Sadie Dennis.- Mr. Sheard.
Bill No. 155, for the relief of Isabel Davidson.-Mr. Bowen.
Bill No. 156, for the relief of Jacob Ross -Mr. McMaster.
Bill No. 157, for the relief of John Delbert Boddy.-Mr. Stewart (Leeds).
Bill No. 158, for the relief of Edward Hugh Reid.-Mr. Ladner.
Bill No. 159, for the relief of Sidney Charles Simmons.-Mr. Clifford.
Bill No. 161, for the relief of Harriet Elizabeth Couch.-Mr. Clifford.

Bill No. 162, for the relief of Margaret Helen Strickland.-Mr. Hocken.
Bill No. 163, for the relief of John Henry North.-Mr. Duff.
Bill No. 165, for the relief of Mary Jane Apedaile.-Mr. Sheard.
Bill No. 166, for the relief of Cecil Donnelly, -Mr. Ladner.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 173, for the relief of Samuel James Connor.-Mr. Church.
Bill No. 174, to change the name of "The Dominion Woman's Christian Temperance Union" to "Canadian Woman's Christian Temperance Union."-Mr. Raymond.
Bill No. 175, for the relief of Andrew Toulouse.-Mr. Church.
Bill No. 176, for the relief of Albert Plue Jessop.-Mr. Duff.
Bill No. 177, for the relief of Cecil Hunter. -Mr. Maclean (York).

[Stage Direction]
The House in committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
Mail subsidies and steamship subventions-local services-Quebec, Natashquan and Harrington, and other ports on the north shore of the gulf of St. Lawrence, steam service between, $85,000.
[u"This bill had to be introduced by way of resolution, and it was pretty well discussed the other day. On the Inter colonial and Prince Edward Island railways there is what is known as a provident fund, contributed to by the imen and by the government. In every province as well there is \xae Workmen's Compensation Act. Under the law the workman had to eleet whether he would take the benefits of the provident fund or of the Workmen's Compensation Act. This bill is to make it clear that the provincial statute does not interfere at all with the provident fund, they are distinct and separate, and the workman is entitled to the benefits of both. I think that is really tthe vital point in the whole bill. As a matter of fact all the provinces 'but Nova Scotia have interpreted the act to mean what we are trying to make if mean now. The last clause is retroactive in order to make it clear that the provinces that have been doing this had the right to do so."]
Henry Lumley Drayton: What changes
have been made since 1921-22 in the service which the public gets, and what is the justification for the 135,000 increase?


Thomas Andrew Low: This contract is with the Clarke Steamship Company and there is no railway or means of communication on the north shore other than by these steamers. This coast is entirely isolated during the winter months, and it is necessary to have a fully, adequate service during the summer months, so that the business of the coast may be transacted and the people get in their supplies and ship out their fish, oils, et cetera, during t'he summer season. The north shore of the St. Lawrence is capable of considerable development, provided that an adequate and regular service of steamers is maintained. These steamers also provide the only mail transportation for this coast and1 this subsidy includes the carriage of these mails. The industries comprise extensive lumbering and fishing operations, and the possibilities of mineral development are good. The north shore service extends to the eastern limit of the Canadian territory, and it has opened up trade with points on the extreme coast of the Canadian Labrador, which never had a steamship connection with Canada before, and whose

Supply-Trade and Commerce
people dealt practically altogether with Newfoundland instead of with Canada. This service has linked up this Canadian territory with the rest of Canada, as it should be.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What have we
got out of that new trade? What is the development?


Thomas Andrew Low: I have not that separately. A
total of thirty-four trips was made during the season. The number of passengers carried was 5,622 and the number of tons of freight, 5,159. The number of locked bags of mail was 1,971 and the number of tied sacks, 5,822. The round trip which is made weekly covers a distance of 1,600 miles.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the rate charged by the company for the transportation of first-class passengers?


Thomas Andrew Low: To the furthest limit, Bras
d'Or, $75 for the round trip.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I do not think Bras d'Or is the furthest point.


Thomas Andrew Low: It is the .furthest point east
shown.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Labrador is east of Bras d'Or.


Thomas Andrew Low: This is just on the border.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I see. I realize that with no railway on the north shore we have to do something towards helping the service. What I rose to point out was that the subsidy in 1921-22 was $50,000. We have an increase of $35,000. What is the extended service for which we are paying the $35,000?


Thomas Andrew Low: The contract of $50,000 was
given to the Gulf of St. Lawrence Shipping & Trading Company. That company failed and the contract was taken over by the Clarke Steamship Company and we had to increase the subsidy to get the service.


Henry Lumley Drayton: These subsidies
are paid in order to maintain a service which would not be secured without them. My hon. friend will agree with that. It therefore becomes the duty of the department to check the earnings every year. Now, have we not yet reached the point where the maximum subsidy of $80,000 or whatever it is can be reduced in view of increased earnings?


Thomas Andrew Low: The service has already broken
one company.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That was with $35,000 a year less.


Thomas Andrew Low: The profits shown by the company's last statement for 1924, do not exceed ten per cent.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Including the
subsidy?


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That would be ten per cent on what?


Thomas Andrew Low: On the cost of the boats. This of course is confidential.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Has the department satisfied itself that the costs are correct?


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes; the statement has been
certified to by a chartered accountant.


Henry Lumley Drayton: How much do
we get for the extra $35,000?


Thomas Andrew Low: We are getting the service.
Had we not agreed to the inorease, the Clarke Company would not have entered into the contract, the other company having failed.


Henry Lumley Drayton: In other words, this was the best bargin the minister could make in substitution of a contractor's obligation that failed.


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: It is an extra
charge for the same service.


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Quebec or Montreal, and Gaspe and ports on the south shore of the gulf of St. Lawrence-steam service between, $60,000.
['Yes.']
Henry Lumley Drayton: There is an increase of one hundred per cent in this vote; what is the reason?


Thomas Andrew Low: , The service has been doubled. Formerly it was fortnightly, now it is weekly. This is much the same as the other contract, and the province of Quebec has increased its subsidy by $30,000 as well. The south shore has no railway communication in the territory covered by this service and the inhabitants are isolated in the winter, being therefore dependent on the steamship service for their supplies and for the shipping of produce. There are considerable possibilities of development on the coast and the people are now providing for a weekly service to and from Quebec and Montreal to promote the development they anticipate. A great many of the villages and settlements along the coast depend on this service for their means of transportation. The service is also extended to the west coast of Newfoundland without any additional subsidy and this opens up great possibilities for increasing Canada's trade with that island, a good deal of which formerly went to the United States.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the
name of the company?


Thomas Andrew Low: The Clarke Steamship Company.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The same company that operates the other service?


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What are the
names of the boats on this and the other
service?


Thomas Andrew Low: On the north shore they are
the North Shore and the Colima, and on the south shore the Gaspesia and the Nayarit.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the
tonnage in each case?


Thomas Andrew Low: The North Shore is 811 gross tons and the Colima, 1,487. A new steamer especially designed for this service is now under construction in England and will be ready for the opening of navigation in 1926. In the meantime the contractors have chartered a large steamer at a great deal of expense to carry on the service during the present season. This steamer and a sister ship intended for the north shore service are now operating on these routes.


Mr. HANSON:: How much is the Quebec
government allowing for this service?


Thomas Andrew Low: Thirty thousand dollars.


Richard Burpee Hanson: 
Thomas Andrew Low: I was mistaken in that; they
paid nothing before. They are now paying $30,000 and the payment is conditional on our increasing our subsidy by $30,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Rimouski and Point aux Outardes-service between. $5,000.
['I was mistaken in that; they\npaid nothing before. They are now paying $30,000 and the payment is conditional on our increasing our subsidy by $30,000.']
Henry Lumley Drayton: When did this
service commence?


Thomas Andrew Low: In 1923.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Now that the
general is with us is there any necessity for keeping it up?


Sir EUGENE FISET:: The shareholders
of the company are not friends of mine, I am sorry to say.


Henry Lumley Drayton: If the hon. member would move to strike out the vote I would not mind seconding the motion.


Eugène Fiset: The service is very satisfactory and the boat which is ninety feet long, carries twenty-one first class and forty second class cabins. Mail is carried as well as passengers.


Mr. CASGRAIN:: It serves both the north and the south shores.


Thomas Andrew Low: The contractor is J. A. Fafard.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What business
is carried on there?


Thomas Andrew Low: I have not inquired.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I do not think there was any inquiry made before this service was inaugurated.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
St. Catharine's bay and Tadoussac-winter service between, $2,000.
['I do not think there was any inquiry made before this service was inaugurated.']
Henry Lumley Drayton: We should give an opportunity to the member of the district to tell us how he got this vote put in. This is another new subsidy.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: It was there last year.


Henry Lumley Drayton: When the crop was good.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: It was there many years ago.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Was it there
in 1921?


Thomas Andrew Low: It was there in 1923 but not
in 1921. But for years before that the service was carried on.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
St. John and St. Andrews, calling at intermediate points, steam service betwen, $3,000.
['It was there in 1923 but not\nin 1921. But for years before that the service was carried on.']
Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the tonnage?


Thomas Andrew Low: One steamer of 133 gross tons.
The contractors are the Maritime Steamship Company.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
St. John and Bear river, and other way ports, steam service between, $2,000.
['One steamer of 133 gross tons.\nThe contractors are the Maritime Steamship Company.']
Henry Lumley Drayton: I suppose I can take it for granted that the subsidy in every case is included in the earnings ,and that the earnings with the subsidy do not exceed ten per cent?


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes.

Supply-Trc.de and Commerce


Henry Lumley Drayton: That is the regular rule, and I understand it is followed in each case.


Thomas Andrew Low: Approximately.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
St. John and Digby, steam service between, $15,000.
['Approximately.']
Henry Lumley Drayton: Who are the
*contractors?


Thomas Andrew Low: The Dominion Atlantic Railway Company a subsidiary of the Canadian Pacific.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What boats
have we there, and what is their tonnage?


Thomas Andrew Low: The Empress of 1,300 gross
tons.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
St. John, Digby, Annapolis and Granville, along the west coast of Annapolis basin, steam service between, $2,000.
['The Empress of 1,300 gross\ntons.']
Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Is that the second line of boats running between St. John and Digby?


Thomas Andrew Low: This is only a weekly freight
boat; the other gives a daily service.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: The one getting the
$15,000 is simply a passenger boat?


Thomas Andrew Low: It carries freight as well.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
St. John and Minas basin ports, steam service between, $5,000.
['It carries freight as well.']
Henry Elvins Spencer: Why is this item bracketed with the preceding one?


Thomas Andrew Low: The contractors are the St. John Steamship Company. It is a yearly contract.


Henry Elvins Spencer: How long has the subsidy been given?


Thomas Andrew Low: The boat was built for the
service in 1919.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The minister
has not answered the question of the hon. member for Battle River (Mr. Spencer). We formerly had a vote of $8,500; we now have it subdivided. Is there to be an increase next year?


Thomas Andrew Low: It is subdivided purely for convenience. The service is covered by two boats.


Henry Lumley Drayton: And was before. Mr. LOW:	Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I notice that the vote for 1921-22 was $5,000. Why this very considerable increase?


Thomas Andrew Low: The amount was exactly the
same in 1921, $8,500.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My Hansard
shows that in 1921-22 the vote was $5,000.


Mr. LOVETT:: I think I can explain the
apparent difference. There was one boat in 1921-22, and afterwards another boat was put on and $8,500 was the subsidy given both boats.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is there any
difference at all?


Thomas Andrew Low: Some years ago the service was
performed by one company with two boats; now two companies have separate contracts, one for $3,500 and the other for $5,000,


Henry Lumley Drayton: Mr. Chairman,
the hon. member for Digby and Annapolis (Mr. Lovett) thinks I am wrong. The vote for 1920-21 was No. 192, "St. John, New Brunswick, and ports on the bay of Fundy and Minas basin and Margaretville, N.S., steam service between." As I read it, that combination service was $5,000. What is the reason for the increase?


Lewis Johnstone Lovett: The vote for $3,500 is in
my constituency; the vote for $5,000 is in the constituency of the member for Kings, N.S. (Mr. Robinson). I know that $3,500 is the subsidy for the service in my constituency, and it has been the same for a long time.


Henry Lumley Drayton: If the minister
does not know', I suppose it is no use holding up the vote. This is simply another unexplained increase.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
St. John, Westport and Yarmouth and other way ports, steam service between, $10,000.
["If the minister\ndoes not know', I suppose it is no use holding up the vote. This is simply another unexplained increase."]
Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the
service at this point?


Thomas Andrew Low: The service is for seventy
round trips. Seventy-three and a half trips were made last year. There were 1,611 passengers and 6,985 tons of freight carried. The subsidy has been the same for the last six years.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
St. John and Weymouth, steam service between, $1,500.
['The service is for seventy\nround trips. Seventy-three and a half trips were made last year. There were 1,611 passengers and 6,985 tons of freight carried. The subsidy has been the same for the last six years.']
Henry Lumley Drayton: When was that put in?

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Thomas Andrew Low: In 1923. The contract is with
the Weymouth Transportation Company, for one year. It provides for a weekly service. The Nova Scotia government pays a subsidy of $2,000.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What business
is there?


Lewis Johnstone Lovett: This boat plies between
Weymouth, Freeport, Westport, Tiverton, Little River, New Edinburgh, Plympton, and many other places where there is no rail connection. It is a very small subsidy. This boat is not making any money; the contractors just about broke even last year.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What was done before 1923?


Lewis Johnstone Lovett: I am not able to say what was done before, but I know that this subsidy is to give the people a much needed service.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Sydney and Bay St. Lawrence, calling at way ports, steam service between, $18,000.
['I am not able to say what was done before, but I know that this subsidy is to give the people a much needed service.']
Henry Lumley Drayton: There is a 100
per cent increase here.


Thomas Andrew Low: The contract was entered into
in 1924. The contractors are the North Shore Steamship Company, of Sydney. The boat was wrecked last year and we called for tenders. The lowest tender received was $20,000, but we succeeded in reducing it to $18'000.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What was the
name of the old boat?


Thomas Andrew Low: The Aspy.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Who was the
owner?


Thomas Andrew Low: The North Shore Steamship
Company.


Donald Ferdinand Kellner: From what the minister
says it would almost seem that if a company's boat is wrecked, or for some other reason a contractor wants more money, about all he has to do to get it is to put in a tender. Surely there must be a limit above which the government refuses to go.


Thomas Andrew Low: I am sure if my hon. friend
lived in an isolated territory he would regard it as the duty of the government to provide some kind of service for the people in that territory, just as it is the duty of the government to try to provide railway service for people living in the interior. These people have no other service than the steamship service.


Donald Ferdinand Kellner: If these were compassionate allowances it might be different, but I thought the matter was being dealt with as a business undertaking.


Thomas Andrew Low: That is what it is-to provide service for these people.


Donald Ferdinand Kellner: I cannot gather that
from the remarks the minister has just made. It certainly sounded to me as though business never entered into the matter. The people simply needed the service and it was decided to give it to them. The cost was not an important consideration at all.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Would it be a "moral claim in equity?"


Mr. CARROLL:: This service starts from
Sydney and follows a route which is one of the stormiest on the whole coast of America. It goes between St. Paul's island and Cape North, and it is near there that the old boat was lost last fall. The old boat cost about $27,000 and the present boat is costing in the vicinity of $70,000. They did not want to enter into a contract at all, and I do not believe they would have given a service here had it not been for the fact that last September or thereabouts plaster works were opened at Ingonish, which is one of the way ports and quite a populous place, and they thought they might make something out of passenger traffic down the coast. There is no railway through any part of this place. It is a mountainous country and it is impossible to take goods through there on auto trucks or anything else. As the minister has said, the contract was entered into for $2,000 less than the lowest tender.


Donald Ferdinand Kellner: It is a question whether
it would not be better for the people to move out of there. If they are in an isolated section of the country I do not see why they should want to continue to live there. If you would adopt the same principle that is followed in the west, that is, refuse to give them railroad service or any facilities at all for communication with the rest of the country, they would get out, the same as our farmers and residents in the west are doing. But we have a different country and a different class of citizens. We have a country in which it is possible to produce a very large tonnage of exportable grain, whereas in the district now under discussion the only thing produced, I understand, is a relatively small quantity of fish. If it is good business to keep a few people isolated in a frontier settlement like this, I do not see why it should not be better

Supply-Trade and Commerce
business to keep a large number of people in a prosperous community in the west. In view of the number of subsidies we are passing in these estimates, there is very little justification for the refusal of the Department of Railways to build the Peace river outlet.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What was the
old service under the former vote of $9,000, and what is the new service to be? That may account for the difference.


Thomas Andrew Low: It is the same service. The
difference is in the cost of the boat.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Sydney and Whycocomagh, steam service between, $13,000.
['It is the same service. The\ndifference is in the cost of the boat.']
Henry Lumley Drayton: Is there an increase there?


Thomas Andrew Low: It is the same as last year.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I think again
there is an increase over 1921-1922 of $4,000. What does my hon. friend say?


Thomas Andrew Low: The old boat was worn out, and we called for tenders, and this is the best offer we received.


Henry Lumley Drayton: This was another case of the old horse going down. How much does the minister say the increase was?


Thomas Andrew Low: The old boat was forty years old.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What was the
old! vote?


Thomas Andrew Low: 


Henry Lumley Drayton: The vote for the same service in 1921-1922 was $4,000.


Thomas Andrew Low: $5,000 in 1922.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I am looking at 1921-1922, and it says $4,000. My hon. friends starting the jacking-up process as soon as they got the opportunity, but I was taking the vote before they had a chance of increasing it.


Thomas Andrew Low: The jacking-up started about
1918.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I am taking the vote just where we left it. The vote in 1921-1922 was $4,000 for this identical service between Sydney and Whycocomagh. There is an increase here of $9,000 over 1921-1922. Is there any difference in the service?


Thomas Andrew Low: It is the same service, but with an improved boat. We called for tenders, and this was the best offer we received.


Henry Lumley Drayton: When were tenders called for?


Thomas Andrew Low: In 1922.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the
tonnage of that boat?


Thomas Andrew Low: Two hundred and fifty-one tons.


Henry Lumley Drayton: And the name of the owner?


Thomas Andrew Low: The name of the contractor is the New Bras d'Or Steamship Company.


Mr. ROSS (Kingston):: Is a provincial
grant made in any of these cases?


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes, there is a grant in this
case of $3,600.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Sydney and Bras d'Or Lake ports, and ports on th* west coast of Cape Breton, steam service between, $18,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: The vote there is also increased over 1921-1922. Was there another wreck?


Thomas Andrew Low: It must have been a bad year for fires, for the Bras d'Or was destroyed1 by fire in December, 1924. We did not call for tenders in this case, but the contractor presented an offer to us, and we accepted it.


Henry Lumley Drayton: There is an increase of $4,000.


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Why were not tenders called?


Thomas Andrew Low: The increase was not this year, but the previous year.


Henry Lumley Drayton: There was an
increase of $4,000.


Thomas Andrew Low: Not over last year's vote.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I did not say
that. Fire or something happens, and then there is a little conversation between the minister and the contractor, and the contractor gets the new deal at $4,000 increase. Am I wrong?


Thomas Andrew Low: The contractor would not carry on the service without an increased subsidy. It was a question of making the best terms possible.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The contractor said he would not go ahead unless you gave him $4,000 more, and you said: Go ahead, here is your $4,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Trade and Commerce
Inspection of subsidized steamship services, $4,500.
Henry Lumley Drayton: Under this item I am going to ask my hon. friend to give us the particulars of this item "Appropriations not required for 1925-1926, $13,500." What have we Ibeen able to get rid of?


Thomas Andrew Low: Dealing first with item 205,
this is to cover the salary and expenses of our inspector, Mr. Wilfrid E. Tupper, appointed May 1, 1912. The salary is $2,880. As to the appropriations not required for 1925-1926, the steamship subsidy estimates omitted are
as follows:
Dalhousie, N.B. and Carleton, Que. (Not utilised
in 1924-25)	 $ 500
Halifax and Newfoundland via Cape Breton ports. (Carries a large amount of contractors'
own freight)	 5,000
St. John and Wedgeport. (Not supported by
local merchants, etc.)	 5,000
Cheticamp and Port Hawkesbury	 3,000


Henry Lumley Drayton: What has become of the people in all these places? I was just wondering how they compare with people in these other places where we have new services given where there were none before.


Thomas Andrew Low: The first item with respect
to Dalhousie and Carleton was dropped. The next item for a service between Halifax and Newfoundland was also omitted, as well as the St. John and Wedgeport and the Cheticamp and Port Hawkesbury services.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Just dropping
the business.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Is there any steamship service between the mainland and Newfoundland?


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes, there is a service carried on by the Newfoundland government. We paid a subsidy when the service was under private ownership, but when the Newfoundland government took it over we dropped the subsidy, feeling that it was not proper to pay a subsidy -to another government.


Mr. THURSTON:: What form of inspection takes place under -this vote?


Thomas Andrew Low: The duties of the inspector
are to travel on all subsidized steamship lines at least once a year, and examine and report upon the condition of the subsidized steamers, also the passenger accommodation, freight capacity, suitability for the service, the efii-ciency with which the contracts are being carried out, wharfage and other conditions

at ports of call, also to examine and report upon freight and passenger rates, to check annual financial statements, and where necessary to make special inspectional trips.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Public works British Columbia-Bamfield East-reconstruction of wharf, $1,650.
Henry Lumley Drayton: Tell us about
this.


Hon J. H. KING (Kootenay, Minister of Public Works):: This is to complete the payment on the contract with Contractor Huntley for the reconstruction of the wharf at Bamfield. The amount of the final estimate was $8,415.46; -paid to the contractor on account $6,780, making a total balance due the con-trnctor of $1,635.46.


Henry Lumley Drayton: It runs $1,600
over the old estimate.


Mr. KING (Kootenay):: Yes. It is an old structure.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to. .
Burgoyne Bay-wharf repairs, $1,250.
Henry Lumley Drayton: What is thia-general repairs to wharf?


John Warwick King: It consists of renewing decking guards and stringers. This is a farming community situated on Salt Spring island, and they are entirely dependent upon wafer transportation.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Campbell River-wharf repairs, $5,000.
John Warwick King: This consists of renewing of caps, stringers, joists, decking and so on, painting truss timbers on approach, repairing the shed and moving the float from river to wharf in spring and back again in the fall. District Engineer Forde reports that owing to the exposed condition of the wharf and fast currents running there landings by steamboats are made very difficult, subjecting the wharf to the strain of repeated impacts and repairs and improvements are rendered necessary on this account. It is necessary to remove the float from wharf to river in the fall! each year as the site is too exposed from the southeast to allow it to remain during the winter months.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Where is that?


John Warwick King: It is in Comox-Alberni.

Supply-Harbours and Rivers


Henry Lumley Drayton: An old wharf.


John Warwick King: Yes, Campbell
River is an important point on the island.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Celista-wharf, $3,600.
Henry Lumley Drayton: Is that a new
wharf?
IMr. KING (Kootenay): No, it is to reconstruct the wharf at Celista in the district of Cariboo. To reconstruct the old wharf on the present site would cost approximately $2,800, which price is based on salvaging a certain proportion oif the old timbers, and so forth. District Engineer Doncaster reports August 1, 1924 that:
It is now the desire of the residents that the new structure, if built, be located at a point about one-quarter mile to the west of the existing one. I had already gone over the ground and had a survey made to see if the proposed site was suitable. I found that the site selected by the residents concerned is suitable from the standpoint of shore line, water depths, and so forth, and has the additional advantage of being somewhat better located with reference to existing wharves at settlements to the east and west of Celista. The estimated cost of building a new wharf on the new site is 43,600.
It is a new wharf, but it is to replace, on a new site, the existing wharf, which is out of repair.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Have we to purchase the land?


John Warwick King: No, I think not.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The land is to be donated to us.


John Warwick King: Well it comes
from the crown.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Columbia river at Revelstoke-Bank protection, $7,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: What is this at Revelstoke?


John Warwick King: At Revelstoke for years the Department of Public Works have been doing some bank protection. It is proposed to build and place in the river bed, three lengths of brush current retards similar to those used with success on the Missouri and other rivers in the United States of America. I might say that years ago the work in the river was in the form of shear dams or wing dams and it has been suggested that this proposed plan should be adopted as it is much less expensive and has proved very successful.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What does this
work consist of?


John Warwick King: We take a large
tree with the brush on it; piles are driven through it, fastening it down to the bank; it collects the silt, and the results are good.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Columbia river below Burton-Bank protection, $10,000.
John Warwick King: This is to save
the channel which the department is required to dredge from time to time. These banks keep tumbling in and the work is required to be done there at different times, in order to hold the bank.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Comox-wharf repairs, $2,800.
John Warwick King: General repairs.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Courtenay river-dredging, $35,500.
John Warwick King: The proposed
work will consist of the dredging of a channel at the river mouth, 1,900 feet long and 80 feet in width, to a depth of 5 feet below low water level. The object of the proposed work is to eliminate the present sharp turn in the channel at this point where considerable trouble has been experienced by navigators.
As to the necessity for the work, Comox valley is one of the finest farming districts on the island of Vancouver, and they are dependent largely on the Vancouver market to dispose of their produce. The Courtenay Transportation Company have a weekly service between Courtenay and Vancouver and various points, and the produce is handled in that way, giving them a very reasonable freight rate. This work is essential so that they may be able to utilize this water route.
The average weekly amount of freight is 50 tons, about 30 tons being consigned to Oourtenay and 20 tons to Cumberland. There is also a launch service from Denman island to Courtenay. The freight dealt with by means of small coasting steamers calling at Courtenay during 1924 was about 557 tons. There is also a launch service from Denman island to Courtenay once weekly with passengers, cream, and so forth.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What kind of a boat service is -that? What is the passenger service?


John Warwick King: A motor boat
service.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Besides the
motor boats there are schooners and coasting boats.
4046	COMMONS
Supply-Harbours and Rivers


John Warwick King: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is their
tonnage?


John Warwick King: It varies.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the
biggest tonnage?


John Warwick King: The Vancouver-
Courtenay Transportation Company's vessel would be the largest. They have a service using barges and tugs.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Any of them
corrugated?


John Warwick King: I am not sure.
Perhaps they would be. They would be cheaper.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Crawford bay-reconstruction of float and shed, $2,250.
John Warwick King: This is to replace an old float and a shed which have been wrecked and which are beyond repair.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Fraser river (lower)-operation of snag boat, $30,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: How are we
getting on with the important work at this point?


John Warwick King: This is for the
operation of the snag boat Sampson which keeps the Fraser river clear of snags. During the spring freshet, tremendous trees come down and unless they are removed the river becomes blocked, forming bars and destroying channels. This is the usual vote and it is essential for the service.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What was spent last year under this vote?


John Warwick King: In 1924-25,

Item agreed to.
Fraser river-improvements, $60,000.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is this?


John Warwick King: This is to construct a dam across Woodwards slough to divert the water into the King Edward cut. The proposed dam will be 1800 feet long and thirty feet wide on top with a slope of four to one. The work will consist of mattresses on its entire length for a width of forty feet and two feet thick. The core will be composed of four rows of driven piles secured by cross-ties. The spaces between the piles are to be filled with brushwork and the sloping sides of the dam will consist of hydraulic fill. The object of this work is to confine the

waters of the Fraser at this point so that instead of the dissemination taking place as it does now, the silt will be passed along on a more rapid current and will go out to sea. It is an important section of the Fraser river, and it is one that has given a great deal of trouble to the department. Similar work was done near the mouth of the river with good results where to-day there is a twenty-foot channel. Last year we had considerable trouble at this point, and it is hoped that the construction of this dam or wall will improve conditions there.


Henry Lumley Drayton: When was the
contract let?


John Warwick King: The contract was let on the 3rd March, on account of the urgency of the work. There were three tenders in all, Broley and Martin being the lowest, The tenders varied from $73,796.50, which was the lowest, to $85,289.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the
amount of the present contract?


John Warwick King: $73,796.50. It is
over the amount which we estima'.ed when the estimates were being made up.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What will be
done as to that?


John Warwick King: We shall have
tc have a supplementary estimate.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What was the reason for spending $68,000 the year before? Was there a similar contract then?


John Warwick King: That was a similar class of work near the mouth of the river.


William Garland McQuarrie: When this work is
completed, what will be the minimum depth of the channel between New Westminster and the gulf?


John Warwick King: I shall bs glad
if my hon. friend will venture an opinion as to that. It is hoped that it will deepen the channel very materially at that point. This work is being done with the greatest of care by the engineers, they using their best judgment after careful surveys and examinations, and moving one step after the other. It is very easy in work of this character to do a great deal of harm if you go too fast. Their disposition is to construct a section at a time, watch the effect and continue. The Fraser is a river carrying a great deal of silt as my hon. friend knows. Within the last two weeks we have been advised that at this cut there has been a tremendous filling, and we have received calls for the

Harbours and Rivers
dredge to go there in order to relieve the situation as navigation is going to be tied up. Two dredges are working there now, but it is hoped, with the completion of this work, that the difficulty will be corrected and there will be a saving in dredging.


William Garland McQuarrie: The freshet is on at
the present time. The two dredges are there new?


John Warwick King: Yes.
' Mr. McQUARRIE:	They are taking care
of the matter?


John Warwick King: Yes, they are
doing the best they can.


William Garland McQuarrie: I appreciate the fact that the minister, the chief engineer and the department are showing great interest in the Fraser river channel. Of course, the minister knows that shipping on the Fraser river has very materially increased during the last three or four years, particularly during the last two years. I notice in the Vancouver Province of the 23rd May a news item which will give some indication of the shipping that is in that river at the present time. It reads:
New Westminster, May 23.-Five ocean carriers are moored at berths here, loading for various parts of the world.
SS. Canadian Highlander is taking 2,500,000 feet of ties and 500 tons of bar metal for United Kingdom. The ties are for a Scottish railway.
SS. Luise Nielsen is loading more than a million feet of lumber for New York.
The British tanker San Leon has arrived from Vancouver, where she discharged 1,000 tons of creosote. She will discharge 4.000 tons of the wood preservative here for the new creosote works.
SS. Canadian Winner is loading concentrates, bar metal and lumber for Antwerp and continental ports.
SS. Canadian Importer has arrived from Vancouver to take cargo for the Orient.
The shipping has very largely increased, and it is a question whether the department is taking measures in a sufficiently active way to meet the situation. I congratulate the minister on the work that has been done, but possibly more is required. There are certain ships now which would come into the Fraser river, but which on account of their draught, are prevented from doing so. The minister should consider the question of letting a contract for the dredging out of that channel from New Westminster to the gulf to a depth of at least thirty feet. We have been working there for many years and some progress has been made; but New Westminster is becoming an important shipping port, and if the grain from the prairies is to be 258	* moved down that river some more drastic steps will have to be taken, I have wondered whether it would not pay the government to let a contract for that work in order to have the job completed at one time instead of doing it piecemeal. I know that the dredges are doing good work there, particularly the King Edward; but I do not think that the other dredge, the 303, that is, the Fruhling, is doing satisfactory work. If the minister would let a contract for the whole job and finish it up money would be saved for the country. If it is considered necessary that the work should be continued by the dredges, then I think the 303 should be replaced with a more modem vessel, for that dredge never can complete a job. My information is that it is always necessary for the other dredge to come after her and finish the work. As the minister knows, the 303 takes up sand into the hold and carries it out to sea, depositing it there, and that simply means, I am told, digging post holes in the bottom of the river. The 303 never did complete any job in clearing any particular part of the channel and I would strongly urge upon the minister the necessity for replacing that dredge with a thoroughly modern and up to date vessel. The minister knows that the Fruhling is many years behind the times and we are constantly losing money on her.


Leon Johnson Ladner: I have just a few words
to say in connection with the north arm of the Fraser river. A few days ago I took occasion to criticize somewhat severely to the extent of my ability the action of the government in granting $5,000,000 to the harbour of Quebec, they having had $4,000,000 in 1922, on the ground that it was non-productive and that in forty years or more no interest had been paid. I took the position that the grant was just money sunk into the river to increase facilities which at the present time may be considered adequate. Now, in urging upon the minister the proposal I am about to advance I have no wish to be in the slightest degree inconsistent. merely because this particular matter happens to relate to my own constituency. As in the other case, I preface my contention with the statement that if the actual business of the times does not warrant improvements and make for a return on the capital invested, such improvements should not be carried out, especially in view of the conditions that face us- our national debt, our railway obligations and other things we have heard so much about.



Supply-Harbours and Rivers
Now, since 1022 the Richmond and Point Grey board of trade as well as the municipal councils of Point Grey, South Vancouver, and Richmond have by petitions and letters impressed upon the government the necessity of extending the jetty at the mouth of the Fraser river in order to make it possible for the saw-mill interests and other industries along the river to bring up booms of logs and split them at the mouth of the river, thereby saving 50 cents per thousand on their logs. Just a few days ago I received letters from the reeve of Point Grey and the Richmond and Point Grey board of trade. In his letter the reeve of Point Grey states some facts which are pertinent to the present situation. He says:
It is a fact that all the plants on the river show growth and warrant a continuance of interest in the development of the river, not for the future but to facilitate the business already there.	.
Dr. King practically conceded that it was necessary to continue the jetty at the mouth of the river and when we had Mr. Cameron down the river, the contention that the silting up at the mouth was largely due to a cross current across the end of Sea island was well demonstrated to him as we arrived, as you well remember, at the mouth of the river at the turn of the tide.
The river is attracting more notice now and other industries will come in and make use of its banks if the entrance is improved. The extension of the jetty would allow tugs to get into sheltered water at any stage of the tide and they could then wait their pleasure in protected water.
As it is now, in the event of a blow coming up they are forced to run back into Howe sound or Vancouver harbour which means a big delay. As an insurance against this occurrence the towing rates are higher than they need be.
Incidentally, it costs 50 cents a thousand more for lumber going into this channel. In view of the general desire among members to have the session end in order that we may go home, I do not propose to take up much time on this question. But the matter is one of importance to the people on the north arm of the Fraser river in the interests of large and increasing industries established there.


Mr. BANCROFT:: Have these industries
been established since the hon. member made his budget speech? At that time I understood him to say that there were no industries operating at that point.


Leon Johnson Ladner: I am complimented by the fact that the hon. member has given some attention to my speech, but apparently he has not read it carefully, because industries are going on there and are increasing every day. Indeed, I was about to tell him something about a few of them. These are some of the
[ Mr. Ladner.]
companies, together with the investment and
the monthly pay roll:
Monthly
Company-	Investment Pay Roll
Robertson Hackett	
$600,000	$15,000Bloedel, Stewart and Welch	..	250,000	15,000
McNair Lumber and Shingle
Company	
240,000	10.500Ewart Lumber Company	
80,000	6,500Barrett Company, Limited	..	..	50,000	2,000Eburne Saw Mills	
645,000	15,000
Bernard Timber and Logging
Company, Limited	
150,000	20,000Hunting-Merritt Lumber Company, Limited	
450,000	21,300
In the list I have given I have omitted the number of cars shipped, which in the case of the Bloedel Company amounts to 1,000. In the case of the Hunting-Merritt Company, 1,000,000 shingles are turned out daily and the number of cars shipped out every month over our railways is something like 1,500. I could give an extended list of concerns with a capital under $500,000 doing business in that district. Each side of the river is being continually crowded with lumber and shingle industries, and industries incidental to these.


Leland Payson Bancroft: Have they started since
the hon. member spoke on the budget?


Leon Johnson Ladner: I have not been out to see, but I can assure the hon. member that these industries are there. Now, the river must be dredged. The channel is ten feet deep over a certain distance and is one hundred and fifty feet wide. The difficulty is that the jetty is not projected far enough into deep water, and with the cross currents bringing in silt the channel has to be dredged constantly or it gives trouble every now and again to shipping. The north arm of the Fraser river is a fresh water body, and the lumber industry finds it advantageous to carry on business there rather than in the main harbour, which of course is salt water. I urge upon the minister and the government that the people now there, as well as the people of Vancouver city, are interested in the increased facilities of the Fraser river to enable the industrial development to proceed in that district. Although we have been importuning the minister and the government every spring since 1922, and although I realize the need for practising, economy in public expenditures, yet I think in this instance there is a failure in fair dealing; because the government have an opportunity of investing money where it is warranted by the actual business conditions. Both the minister's officials and the business men of

Supply-Harbours and Rivers
Vancouver know that money can be advantageously spent there in the development of one of our basic industries. I contrast the "economy" of the government in this instance with the $12,000,000 voted during the past week, in most cases, to be spent on proposals which have not the redeeming feature of being necessary to take care of the actual business necessities of to-day.


John Warwick King: In reply to the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Mc-Quarrie) regarding increased shipping facilities on the Fraser river, undoubtedly there has been a tremendous increase in the shipping of lumber and its products and also of some of the mineral products of the province. As to voting some millions of dollars and doing the job in one contract, my hon. friend cannot have given the problem that consideration which it demands. The trouble would not be cured except by the expenditure of a tremendous sum of money, and even then we might not be successful. I think the method adopted by the department is the proper one, that of training the river, as it were, and in that way securing a clear channel. I do not think my hon. friend can complain, because the history of the river for the last two or three years has been more or less satisfactory. At times our friends have been uneasy and somewhat nervous, but generally speaking the trouble has been pretty well taken care of.
In regard to the north arm, my hon. friend from Vancouver South (Mr. Ladner) has dilated upon the advantages of that channel, and unquestionably there are many industries situated along it. But to suggest that the government of Canada has neglected the channel would hardly be in accordance with the facte. Since 1911 about $2,000,000 has been expended on the north arm in retaining walls, dredging and so forth; during 1922-23 we spent $23,606, and during 1923-24, $55,920. These later expenditures were for dredging to keep the channel open. The breakwater that my hon. friend refers to is a very large undertaking. Some years ago the government extended the wall out some distance from the mouth of the north arm. It is proposed to carry this out further to deep water, but that work requires a very large sum of money, and up to the present the money has not been available.


Leon Johnson Ladner: On that point, with the original investment there now and the work partly completed, would it not be better business to keep step with the increase of industry there instead of remaining idle?


John Warwick King: I think my hon. friend must realize that with the necessity for economy what he suggests has not been possible.


Leon Johnson Ladner: AVhy has that economy not been practised in Quebec harbour and othei places?


John Warwick King: I think it has been.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Harbours and rivers generally-repairs and improvements, $65,000.
William Garland McQuarrie: Does this item include repairs to the wharf at White Rock? I think representations have been made to the minister as to the dangerous condition of that wharf.	.


John Warwick King: I notice that last year under the general item of harbours and rivers, $163.25 was expended at White Rock.
I expect that was for urgent repairs.


William Garland McQuarrie: But I mean for the current year.


John Warwick King: I have a list before me of forty places, but I do not see White Rock included.


William Garland McQuarrie: I draw the attention of the minister to the necessity for repairs at this wharf. I presume he has a report from his resident engineer that the wharf is in need of repairs. I am told it is so bad now that it is really dangerous for anyone to use it, and yet the life belts have been removed. Representations have been made by the ratepayers' association and other bodies in White Rock asking for the replacement of these life belts, but I understand the resident engineer said that this could not be done as the vote had been exhausted. It seems to me it is running things pretty fine when such an excuse has to be given. The minister knows this wharf is very extensively used, and he may be certain that if it is dangerous, something will happen one of these days for which he will be sorry.


John Warwick King: I will have the matter looked into.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mayne island-wharf repairs and improvements, $4,200.
Henry Lumley Drayton: What are the
improvements?


John Warwick King: Renewing the
superstructure of the wharf-head and approach, renewal of fender piles, also a new float 16 x' 30 feet, making a total expenditure of $4,200.



' Supply-Harbours and Rivers
The resident engineer reports that the superstructure of the wharf-head is so far depreciated as to require entire renewal, together with a number of fender piles. A new float is also necessary. This is in the Nanaimo district.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mission-wharf reconstruction, $5,200.
Henry Lumley Drayton: What is being done there? That looks a rather large reconstruction.


John Warwick King: This is to rebuild the government wharf. On account of the decaying of the piles the timbers have become unsafe for traffic. The wharf was built in 1905-06. It is regularly used toy river steamers.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Okanagan lake and river-improvements, $2,000.
John Warwick King: The Okanagan
river drains Okanagan lake. It is subject to blocking at times and has to be dredged.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is there any
navigation there?


John Warwick King: No, tout we have to control the flow of Okanagan lake, which is navigable. A small river also leads out into a lake below which is navigable.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Port Clements-wharf repairs, $6,600.
John Warwick King: The engineer reports that the superstructure of this wharf is so far decayed as to require entire renewal.
iSir HENRY DRAYTON: Will the work be done by tender and contract?


John Warwick King: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Vancouver, Stanley Park-foreshore protection, $8,000.
John Warwick King: This work is being done in conjunction with the Stanley park authorities. We have spent to date $25,000, and there is some work yet to be done.^ The grant has been made to the park commission-[DOT] ers and the work is being properly done.
iSir HENRY DRAYTON:	Is this being
done under the Public Works department?


John Warwick King: We are allowing the park commissioners to expend the monej under our supervision.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is being done with that $8,000?


John Warwick King: We have now a sea wall of 2,553 feet. It is proposed to build 700 feet more. The total length of the wall is to be 7,100 feet.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Is Vancouver or British
Columbia contributing to this work?


John Warwick King: No.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I thought somebody else was doing the work. Are they not contributing?


John Warwick King: iNo, but they are supervising the work for us.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I understood the; minister to say the department were supervising it; now we are told somebody else is supervising it.


John Warwick King: We are supervising; they are doing the work.


Henry Lumley Drayton: And we are putting up all the money?


John Warwick King: Yes.
Mr. MicBRIDE: In years gone by this work was not required, but such a traffic has developed at Vancouver in recent years that the large ships cause a heavy swell, and if this work is not done the road around Stanley park will be gradually eaten away. It is : very necessary work, and it will be money well spent.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The hon. member has entirely .missed the question. Are the civic officials much more efficient in doing th(. work than the Department of Public Works? If so, they had better be allowed to go on with it. I daresay they are.


John Warwick King: I think not. The park commissioners have a very efficient organization and we have taken advantage of that organization. The results being obtained are quite satisfactory.
Mr. LADtNER: I happen to know something of the work of that park commission in connection with this particular matter, and I do not think there is any public body in Vancouver that is more capably managed than the park board. The chairman Mr. Shelley, is one of the most capable business men and administrators we haye, and I am sure tha1 whatever work is carried on by the board will be properly done.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Westbank-reconstruction of and improvements to wharf, $8,500.
Henry Lumley Drayton: What are the
improvements?
JUNE 9, 1925	pT
Supply- Harbours and Rivers


John Warwick King: The vote is to
reconstruct the superstructure of the northerly section of the wharf in order to replace the worn out portion with a type of construction which will withstand the heavy traffic to which this wiharf is subjected. The section to be rebuilt consists of an approach 112 feet bj 16 feet and inclined main wharf 154 feet by 32 feet.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Will that be
done by tender?


John Warwick King: I would think so, yes.
(Mr. McQUARRIE: I would like to associate myself with the hon. member (Mr. Ladner) as to the necessity of the work he outlined on the north arm of the Fraser river. I a>m interested in that work, too. In fact, all of us in that district are interested in the improvement of the north arm.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
William Head Quarantine Station-repairs to wharves, $3,500.
Henry Lumley Drayton: Will the minister, to save time, hand in a list of
10 ,p.m. the appropriations not required for 1925-26 and have them put on
Hansard?
-Mr. KING (Kootenay): Yes. The list is as follows:
List of Appropriations not required for 1925-26
Chargeable to Income
	Appro-	Expenditure to
Harbours and Rivers	priation	March 31,
	1924-25	1925
British Columbia- Arrow Park-reconstruction of wharf	$ 10,000	$ 10,135 62Bella Coola-to renew and extend wharf	9,000	8,877 51Bowen Island (west side)- floating wharf	2,000	1,886 38Burton-wharf repairs	2,100	1,415 07Chemainus-repairs to float...	1,450	1,236 23Crooked and Parsnip rivers-removal of obstructions	3,500	3,560 67Deep Bay-wharf repairs.. ..	1,850	1,756 48Denman Island-wharf repairs.	3,400	3,345 68Enterprise Landing-wharf reconstruction	1,200	1,378 12Fraser Lake-wharf	2.500	2,689 61Fraser's Landing-wharf	5,100	4,994 25Ful ford Harbour-wharf repairs	1,200	1,162 24Ginol's-wharf accommodation.	2,500	1,647 47Granite Bay-repairs to float..	1,100	1,090 31Hardy Bay-wharf replacement	19.000	15,300 29Harrop-wharf reconstruction.	3,600	2.081 66Hope Bay-wharf repairs.. ..	1,200	1.195 01Irvin's Landing-floats	1,100	974 75
Chargeable to Income
	Appro-	Expenditure to
Harbours and Rivers	priation	March 31,
	1924-25	1925
ritish Columbia- Naramata-wharf repairs and improvements	1,300	1,300 00New Massett-wharf repairs.	2,300	2,313 46New Westminster (Poplar Island-fisheries patrol station	16,500	16,612 26N icemen Island-protection work	36.000	34,455 53Nootka-wharf repairs	3,500	3,372 79North Gahriola-wharf repairs.	1,300	1,307 00Pender Harbour (Donley's Landing)-enlarging float	1,000	1,019 78Port Alberni-wharf repairs...	1,650	1,548 39Port Hammond-wharf	5,000	3,511 36Port Renfrew-wharf reconstruction	10,000	9,161 64Port Simpson-wharf repairs..	2,850	2,837 11Roy-float	1,500	1,324 49Royston-wharf repairs	2.750	2,687 23Sayward-wharf replacement.	11,600	3,377 84Shaw's-wharf	3.200	2.657 32Sidney-breakwater	3.000	2.978 70Sidney-repairs to wharves...	7,250	7,249 75Sointula-wharf repairs, float and shed extension	1,250	1,422 09Stewart-wharf improvements..	1,200	1,200 00Tofino-wharf repairs	5,400	5,153 98Willow Point-wharf repairs..	1,000	939 87Wilson's ' Landing-wharf replacement	2,100	2,099 05
$ 192,450 % 173,256 99
Yukon-Stewart and Yukon rivers-channel improvements, $5,000.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is this an annual payment?


John Warwick King: Yes. The proposed work is the removal of boulders from the navigable channel of the Stewart and Yukon rivers and the construction of brush and rock wing dams where necessary.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What are we trying to do? What depth are we trying to go?


John Warwick King: Usually the work is a matter of clearing the channel of docks and debris that accumulate from year to year. Two years ago the Yukon Navigation Company built a dam which raised the level of the waters and the government have contributed to the cost of that dam $5,000. The results have been very good. I have a report from the Yukon to-day saying that navigation on account of the construction of this dam is some weeks earlier this year, and the thing is working out well. If the dam is a success, we shall not have to spend so much each year.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What was spent last year?

Supply-Harbours and Rivers


John Warwick King: 


Henry Lumley Drayton: The actual
amount voted? That was clever bookkeeping.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Harbours and rivers generally, $30,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: What was spent on that last year?


John Warwick King: This amount is
required to cover travelling expenses telegrams, printing, stationary, instruments, and so for: h, which cannot conveniently be charged against any one in particular of the general appropriations for construction, improvements, or repairs in each province.
The chief engineer asks for an allotment of $15,000 out of this appropriation to pay expenses of staff in making test borings throughout the Dominion. He states that $2,000 will also be required in connection with the laboratory for testing materials. We spent last year $29,990.72.


Henry Lumley Drayton: If I have been able to follow my hon. friend, it does not look right to charge these things to a vote for harbours and rivers at all. The items he has mentioned have more to do with the cost of the service, have they not? No construction work is being done at all; it is simply for salaries, telegrams, and so forth. I think telegrams was the first item read; it may not be the main item, but it seems hardly fair to load all this on to a vote for harbours and rivers.


John Warwick King: It is an expenditure made in connection with haibours and rivers throughout Canada for administration purposes. Last year we spent $29,990.72, which was made up as follows:
Generally	 $ 1.364 72
Cement testing laboratory	
1.421	06Test boring	
12.400	07Freight and express	
2,836	50Photographic supplies	
2,126	42Telegrams	
4.497	08Printing and stationery	
5,312	37'Guarantee bonds	
32	50

Item agreed to.	'


John Warwick King: Mr. Chairman, before taking up the next vote. When Public Works estimates for the harbour works in the
province of Quebec were under discussion in committee last Friday I promised to bring down a copy of the judgment of the Exchequer court dealing with the expropriation of the wharf at St. Petronille and to give the committee the amount offered by the government.
This wharf and property of 37,363 square feet was the property of La Cie Maritime de Levis. The government offered them the sum of $24,394.65, which was the estimated value made up by the district engineer, taking into consideration the need for considerable repairs. The company, however, refused to- sell the property at this price claiming $70,000, and as it was necessary, in the public interest, to take over the wharf and repair same, which the company had refused to do, a notice of expropriation was filed November 20, 1923. The judgment which I have here was rendered by Mr. Justice Audette on May 23, 1924, fixing the amount of compensation at the sum of $29,604.45, with interest at 5 per cent from November 20, 1923. It is to be noted from this judgment that no consideration was allowed for interference or loss of business in view of the fact that the business of the company was not interfered with in any way.
The above mentioned company, however, entered an appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada from this judgment, but I have here a statement dated April 28, 1925, just received by this department, from the deputy registrar of the Exchequer Court of Canada, stating that this appeal was subsequently discontinued by the company. I do not suppose the committee would be interested in hearing the judgment of the Exchequer court, but I have it here. Then in- regard to the vote for Three Rivera harbour, a question was asked as to the personnel of the commission. The commission was appointed by order in council of July 10, 1923, and consists of Robert F. Grant, president, Joseph L. Fortin, and Norman Labelle. These commissioners do not receive a salary, although according to section 5, subsection 4 of the act of June 30, 1923, they may be paid such remuneration out of revenues o-f the harbour as the Governor in Council may determine.
The receipts and disbursements of this com-mision for the past two years have been as follows:
TSir Henry Drayton.]
Receipts
Harbour dues	
Wharfages	
Rental of sheds and wharves. Sundry receipts	
Totals	

Supply-Harbours and Rivers
1923 (Calendar year)
Disbursements
$ 7,720 73 General repairs	 $ 5,176 62
21,987 76 Salaries of secretary and harbour master
5,765 04 and office maintenance	 8,428 02
359 13	Interest on debentures	 18,877 31
$35,832 66	$33,030 42
Shed rentals	
Harbour dues.. ..
Wharfages	
Rentals of wharves. Sundry receipts.. ..
Totals	
1924 (Calendar year)

Wharves, maintenance and general repairs	
Salaries and office expense	
Interest on current account	
Interest on debentures

Dredging-Maritime provinces, $540,000.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What was done
under this vote last year? What was the yardage and the amount paid?


John Warwick King: There was a fairly long programme. It covers some two and a half pages. I do not know whether my hon. friend would like me to read all the items.


Henry Lumley Drayton: We can get
along without all the items. How many yards were taken out, and at what cost? What is this costing us, and what revenue are we getting? I suppose we have the average costs.


John Warwick King: I am sorry it has
not been totalled up. It varies in the localities. One of the largest works we had was at Yarmouth. During the season of 1924-25 there were removed 298,668 cubic yards of mud at a cost of $54,097.08. In the channel there were 58,845 yards removed at a cost of $18,685.


Henry Lumley Drayton: How much was
spent altogether?


John Warwick King: The amount was
$379,191. At Compbellton there is a further large item; dredge No. 1 removed 159,661 yards at a cost of $34,109. I have the total which has just been sent to me. The dredges handled 974,701 cubic yards at a cost of thirty andi one-third cents a cubic yard.


Henry Lumley Drayton: These are all
our dredges?


John Warwick King: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: How many
dredges have we working there?


John Warwick King: Eleven I think
in all.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The dredges
handled 974,701 cubic yards at thirty and one-third cents a cubic yard?


John Warwick King: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is to be done this year?


John Warwick King: The estimated
costs of the operations are:
Dredge No. 1	 $86,808 75
Dredge No. 2		48,485 38
Dredge No.	4	
15,537	08Dredge No.	5	
56,769	00Dredge No.	9	
40,908	13Dredge No.	11	
23,871	25Dredge No.	13	
55,536	50Dredge No.	14	
H.000	00Dredge No.	15	
5,500	00Dredge No.	16	
5,000	00Dredge No. 115	
62,732 25


Henry Lumley Drayton: Making a total of how much?


John Warwick King: The estimated
total for the whole thing will be $427,148.34.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Do you put in
works under contract in connection with the general vote?


John Warwick King: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I want ,to find
out why there are large sums for contracts put in this general vote when we are supposed to cover these things by a particular item.


John Warwick King: In the case of
dredging to any extent we ask for a special vote, but we may have a small expenditure of $5,000 or $10,000, where we would ask for a contract.


Henry Lumley Drayton: We have item
after item, list after list and yards of dredging, dredging, and dredging. Now we have a general vote for dredging which is a fairly heavy vote, and which apparently can be used

Supply-Harbours and Rivers
for the purpose of looking after the substantial contracts as well. What is the basis under which my hon. friend asks for a lump vote here as against all the other votes for dredging which we have elsewhere.


John Warwick King: The practice is
one which has been followed for many years, and probably the proper practice. This is primarily to take care of the departmental fleet.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend cannot mean that it is ,to give them a job.


John Warwick King: No, to maintain
that fleet and keep them in operation. That is primarily what the vote is for. Then with regard to any larger amounts that come up we ask parliament for separate appropriations. During the course of the year it may be necessary to enter into smaller contracts at other places where the departmental fleet is not available. In that case we let contracts by tender. It is -the general practice.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the
contract to be let?


John Warwick King: No contract let
yet.
_ Sir HENRY DRAYTON:	The minister
is making provision for letting a contract What is it?


John Warwick King: We have some
small works which may be let, but it is subject to change. We have the following list:
Cape Bald, N.B., 4.000 cubic yards	$ 2,000 00
Cape Toimentine, N.B., 18,750 cubic yards 14 062 50
Carey5s Passage, N.S., 2,000 s. m	 3,000 00
Lower St. Louis, N.B., 3,000	 L500 00
Minasville, N.S	 "	660 00
McNair's Cove, N.S., 5,800	 4,930 00
Petite Riviere, N.S., 1,555 cubic yards.. ..	622 00
Seal Cove, N.B., 1,050	 1 575 00
Tenecape. N.S., 1,000	" ' ' j'qoo 00
Wentworth, N.S., 11,250	 4^00 00
Windsor, N.S., 3,300	 ''	2 000 00
To4al	 135,849 50
That is the tentative programme-and it is only tentative-for this year.


Donald Ferdinand Kellner: We have an item:
Windsor wharf extension, $20,000. Why does the minister not iput the dredging in the estimate along with the wharf extension?


John Warwick King: No dredging is
mentioned in the item for wharf construction. That is a separate item. We could not do the dredging out of that -item unless we mentioned it and made it a dredging item.


Donald Ferdinand Kellner: If the minister will look at the estimates for Nova Scotia, he will notice that he has an estimate for dredging in several of the items.


John Warwick King: That can be done. My hon. friend is asking why this was not designated for wharf extension and dredging The wharf at which dredging is being done is another wharf in Windsor harbour.


Donald Ferdinand Kellner: There is a suspicion in
my mind that the department are summing up the entire dredging in Nova Scotia, and that the minister has made a mistake and put his whole totals in here as an extra vote. If he will look it over carefully, I think he will find he -is making provision for paying this twice.


John Warwick King: I think not.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dredging-Ontario and Quebec, $562,500.
Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the
yardage there?


John Warwick King: This is required
to provide for the operation and maintenance of the dredging fleet of Ontario and Quebec. The estimate for this year is as follows:
Operation of dredges	$258,015 84
Maintenance,	 127,917 16

	$385,933	00
For	works to	be undertaken	by	contract..	137,297	55New dredging	plant	
35,000	00For	surveys,	inspections	and	advertising..	5,000	00Total	$563,230	55
The yardage is not given .there. That is an estimate for this year.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What was spent last year and what was the yardage?


John Warwick King: I am afraid this
has not been totalled, but I -can give the total
expenditures:
Ontario	
$211,975	59Quebec	
305,188	41Plant laid	up	
3,423	57Printing,	messages, etcetera	
615	41Total	
$521,202 98


Arthur Edward Ross: Has the minister
any information as to the increase in dredging caused by the lowering of the water in lake Ontario?


John Warwick King: I am sorry I
have not. It would require a great deal of study and work to estimate that.


Arthur Edward Ross: In the harbour of
Kingston it -means a great deal of dredging.

Supply-Harbours and Rivers


John Warwick King: That is true.


Arthur Edward Ross: Will it not be
necessary to do very much more this year at Kingston?


John Warwick King: I believe it is
necessary to do more work at Kingston. In fact, they are asking for further surveys at Kingston. Last year the dredging department dredged 864,710 cubic yards at a cost of $323,295.06.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the cost per yard?


John Warwick King: I will have it
worked out. As regards the estimate of cost on account of the lowering of the water in the lakes, that would be a tremendous problem. All our engineers have been instructed to keep a close tab on the flow, and they are reporting to the department from time to time. I expect the individual engineer could make an estimate, but I have not that at hand.	_


Henry Lumley Drayton: I should have
thought a great deal of our troubles in the upper St. Lawrence and at Montreal would be owing to that. Is any of this vote for the Montreal work?


John Warwick King: No.


Henry Lumley Drayton: How does the
minister keep his dredges from fouling the dredges of the Department of Marine and Fisheries?


John Warwick King: We give them
plenty of leeway.


Henry Lumley Drayton: How does he
keep them out of the way?


John Warwick King: We keep out of
the deep water.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I suppose the
ministers distinguish the work according to the depth to be obtained, whether it is Marine and Fisheries or Public Works.


Arthur Edward Ross: I know this is
not in the minister's department, but has he considered the matter of anchorage in the La Salle causeway? There is now a charge of $50 collected by the Department of Marine and Fisheries, but it is really a public work. It is one of these intermingled things. Does the minister realize that the charge for this anchorage is driving work out of Ontario and indeed out of Canada? There are only two places in Ontario where anchorage is charged for at present and Kingston having a drydock would get the benefit of the work, that is, the repair of vessels when laid up during the winter. At the present time the charge of $50 per anchorage is driving work away from Ontario by forcing boats to anchor at Buffalo. Has the minister considered this matter which is very serious and important?


John Warwick King: The Department
of Public Works is not levying any fee for anchorage. If that is being done, it must be by the Department of Marine and Fisheries.


Arthur Edward Ross: I know, but between the two departments it should be realized that this cost of anchorage is driving work out of Ontario now because free anchorage is given at Buffalo where these boats can go. As the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, (Mr. Cardin) is in his seat, I should like to draw this matter to his attention also.


John Warwick King: I shall be glad to have inquiries made. Of course, during the last few days in this House representations have been made that the government should make charges for all these things. If business is being forced out of the country on account of this charge, the matter should be looked into and probably adjusted. This is the first time that I have heard of an alleged charge.


Arthur Edward Ross: I now draw the
minister's attention to it. The La Salle causeway is not in the city of Kingston and, therefore, they cannot take it over and be responsible for its maintenance as at Goderich, where the dock and harbour are in the city altogether, and the maintenance of it has been taken over by that city. A charge of $50 is being made at Kingston, and boats which would anchor at Kingston for the winter and afford work both in and out of the drydock will go to Buffalo where anchorage is free. It is all very well to say that some collection should be made on account of certain conditions, but I think the minister ought to consider this question seriously. The steamship men tell me that they can get free anchorage at Buffalo and this being the case they are going there, leaving unoccupied the only dry dock on the lower lakes, that at Kingston.


John Warwick King: I shall be glad to give the matter consideration.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Has the minister got the cost per yard worked out?


John Warwick King: Thirty-eight cenls.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Harbours and Rivers
Dredging-Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, $30,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the
cost per yard in this case?


John Warwick King: In the case of
Manitoba it works out at 35 cents and in British Columbia 15J cents per yard.


Henry Lumley Drayton: There is an excellent plant at British Columbia in comparison with the others.


John Warwick King: The work is
largely hydraulic and is therefore cheaper.


Mr. CAMPBELL:: What is the amount
spent in each of these provinces?


John Warwick King: The total spent
in the three provinces last year was $70,703; in Saskatchewan $10,249, in Alberta $3,747 and in Manitoba $56,706.


Milton Neil Campbell: Whereabouts in Manitoba was the $56,000 spent?


John Warwick King: At Red river, in
Selkirk, there was spent $10,482.85; at Selkirk, $2,257; at Selkirk slough, $5,901; at St. Andrew's locks, $864; and at Winnipegosis, $6,711. These were the principal items of expenditure during the past year. There was also one small item at Goose River, Nelson, of $190.


Milton Neil Campbell: Was that work at
Nelson done in connection with Hudson bay?


John Warwick King: No, it has nothing to do with the Nelson river.


Milton Neil Campbell: Will it be necessary to
spend the proposed amount this year?


John Warwick King: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
British Columbia-dredging, $375,000.
William Garland McQuarrie: Will this item include dredging at Ladner? The minister, I believe, has received communications in reference to the condition of the river at this point; I think he has received one from the reeve of Delta muncipality recently, because I got a copy of it to-day myself from Reeve Paterson. Last year the harbour was closed for a certain time and we could not operate the ferry, which is a very light draught vessel. This is perhaps the finest farming community in the whole of Canada, and as the farmers were unable then to ship their produce by water they are afraid that the same condition of affairs will prevail this year when the freshets

subside, unless dredging is done. I do not think it is a very big undertaking and it would not involve a very large sum; but it is imperative that this work should be taken care of.


John Warwick King: I know the point
to which my hon. friend refers; there is a large bar there. The department has spent money at Ladner at different times for the purpose of keeping open the channel, and the situation is not an easy one. Two years ago we spent something at that point. I received the letter my hon. friend speaks of and it will be considered later on.


William Garland McQuarrie: Will this item be
available for work there?


John Warwick King: I should think it would be.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Roads and bridges-Calumet-Bryson bridge-painting, $2,400.
Henry Lumley Drayton: What, is to be
done there?


John Warwick King: The district engineer has reported that the painting of the bridge is necessary in order to keep it in a proper state of repair. This bridge, which connects Calumet island with the mainland at Bryson, was originally built by the province of Quebec in the year 1874, the municipalities of Calumet and Bryson having contributed to the cost. In 1886 the bridge was reconstructed by a committee known as the Bridge committee, which was presumably formed by these two municipalities. In 1886 the Dominion government granted the sum of $4,000 as an aid towards the construction of the bridge and this was supplemented by a further grant of $2,000, making a total Dominion grant of $8,000. In the fiscal year 1905-06 the department reconstructed the bridge at a cost of $18,036 and during different years since that date has expended various sums to maintain it, totalling $10,168.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What did we do it with last year?


John Warwick King: In 1924 we reconstructed the second river pier of this bridge and refloored the structure.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is this to complete the bridge? Last year we spent $12,400 and this year we are spending $2,400 in connection with a structure which originally we did not own at all. Is this the end of it, or are we going to have another vote next year?

Supply-Harbours and Rivers


John Warwick King: It is the end of it for the present, so far as I know.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What does that qualification mean?	[DOT]


John Warwick King: These things are all subject to damage by current, ice, or something of that kind. So far as I know this is the end of the expenditure.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Des Joachims bridge-repairs, $1,800.
Henry Lumley Drayton: What is our interest in that?


John Warwick King: There are two
sections of this bridge across the Ottawa river at Des Joachims, one across the south channel and the other across the north channel. These structures were built in 1901 to replace the old bridges originally constructed in 1882. The bridge across the south channel consists of three spans, the two end spans each being 104 feet in length while the centre span is 229 feet long. The north channel bridge [DOT]consists of two spans each of which is 154J feet in length. Both bridges are set on masonry abutments and piers.


Henry Lumley Drayton: We spent $6,400 last year; what was that for?


John Warwick King: For renewing the flooring with four-inch red pine. The present vote is for painting the bridge.


Henry Lumley Drayton: This will clean it up?


John Warwick King: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Interprovincial bridge over the Ottawa at Hawkes-bury; the Ontario and Quebec governments to each contribute one-third of the cost, $40,000.
John Warwick King: This is a revote; it has been in the estimates since 1912, At that time it was proposed to build a bridge entirely at the cost of the Dominion government; tenders were called for and a certain amount of work was done on the approaches. During the war period the work was not proceeded with. This $40,000 is in the estimates conditionally on the provincial governments sharing a part of the expense.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Are any negotiations proceeding?


John Warwick King: Yes, but they are not concluded.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Ottawa-maintenance and repairs to bridges and approaches, $10,000.
Sir HENRY' DRAYTON: Which bridge is this?
John Warwick King: This is for the maintenance of the Chaudiere bridges and Hull causeway, $4,000; to repair stone work in arches and walls, to replace wooden sidewalk with concrete sidewalk over Blackburn and Devil's Hole channels and to repair store sheds on Mill street, $3,400; cleaning and painting (one coat), replacing top of railing and minor repairs generally to Laurier bridge $2,700.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Portage du Fort, Quebec-painting bridges, $2,700.
Henry Lumley Drayton: That is our
bridge?


John Warwick King: Yes, it is a steel bridge constructed in 1901. This vote is for painting.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
International bridge between St. Leonard's, N.B., and Van Buren, Maine-repairs, $2,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: Our proportion is what?


John Warwick King: Fifty-fifty. This is required to complete laying the macadam. The work is performed and paid for jointly by the Dominion government and the state of Maine.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to. .
Telegraph and telephone lines-British Columbia- branch telephone line from Beaver lake line to Big lake, $1,400.
Henry Lumley Drayton: We have had a good many discussions from time to time in connection with these government lines with the view of getting rid of whatever we could. I am afraid most of them are very heavy losers. How is my hon. friend getting along? Is he now showing a profit?


John Warwick King: I will submit a statement a little later dealing with the general situation.


John Jabez Thurston: Is this a new line?


John Warwick King: This is required for the construction of a telephone line eight miles in length at an estimated cost of $1,400 to serve a number of ranchers who reside in the section. The estimated revenue will be $150 per annum.
Supply-Public Works


John Jabez Thurston: Are these subsidized
lines self-supporting?


John Warwick King: In this case you would have seven per cent on the outlay.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What about the cost of maintenance though?


John Warwick King: There would be no increase practically on account of this; there might be some in material, but in the administration it would be only incidental.


Henry Lumley Drayton: How many subscribers will there be on this line, and what are they to be charged?


John Warwick King: Five subscribers at $30 a year.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Does the minister think that will bring in anything worth while?


John Warwick King: Oh yes, I think so.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Hudson's Hope-construction of telegraph office building, §1,800.
Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the
necessity of thiis?


John Warwick King: Up in that country it is necessary to provide the operator with living quarters. The telegraph office at Hudson s Hope is located in a building owned by our lineman and we have been paying $20 a month rent for it. There is no doiubt that the operator has cause for complaint as the place is, to say the least, most unsanitary. Tc remedy matters it will be necessary to erect a building at Hudson's Hope for the purposes of a telegraph office and living quarters for the operator. The cost will be approximately $1,800 for the building and lot.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Telephone line, Houston to Ootsa Lake, Francois Lake, and Burn's Lake, $970.
Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the
mileage, and what is the number of subscribers?


John Warwick King: Altogether it will be about 113 miles. It has been under construction since 1920-21, and this is to complete it. The estimated revenue is $1,500 a year. I have not the number of subscribers, but there is a fairly good population there.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Vancouver island district-Campbell river-Gasoline launch-further amount required, $815.
John Warwick King: We had an item in the estimates last year for the purchase of

a launch for the use of the lineman, and this amount is required to complete payment ol the purchase price.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I suppose what really happened was that the launch was found to cost $815 mo-re than was provided for last year?


John Warwick King: The estimate was too low and we decided to expend a large] amount and get a good boat.


Donald Ferdinand Kellner: Is that a pleasure launch?


John Warwick King: No. It is for the use of the lineman along the coast.


Donald Ferdinand Kellner: Does this telephone line run on the water?


John Warwick King: In many of these: .places there are no roads or trails, and the only means of getting to the line is to use the waiter route along the coast. That is what the boat is for.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Yahk-Creston telephone line-installation of metallic circuit, $8,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: What is this
for?


John Warwick King: This amount is required for the purpose of installing a metallic circuit on the Yahk-Creston telephone line, a distance of ap\proxkn.ateily 30 miles. It will give to the .people of this district direct connection witih their markets in Calgary, Edmonton, Lethbridge, and so on.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the
present revenue?


John Warwick King: I am sorry I have not that information. It is not very great, but still it 'is sufficient, I think, to maintain the service.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I do not know
how we can consider these things unless we know what the revenues are. I asked the minister to give us a statement as
11 pm. to the position of the telephone companies, and he said he could not do so then, but he thought he would have it in a little while. Has he got it now?


John Warwick King: I quite agree that my hon. friend is entitled to more information and I am sorry I do not happen to have it before me. This, I may say from local knowledge, is one of the best telephone sections that is being served. The district which includes Creston, Kitchener, Castlegar, Yahk, the old town of Moyie and the section about

Supply-Public Works
there, is a very good country. I am satisfied that the revenue will be sufficient. There is some farming and a considerable amount of lumbering. At Yahk there is connection with the East Kootenay Telephone Company, and it is hoped eventually that the metallic circuit will extend through and give connection with West Kootenay.


John Jabez Thurston: Does the government
charge a yearly rental for the phones besides the toll?


John Warwick King: We have no local exchange. The line from Yahk to Creston is our own telephone line. At Yahk there is contact with the East Kootenay telephone service.


John Jabez Thurston: It is really a connecting link between the two?


John Warwick King: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The minister at first says the revenue is small; now he suggests that it will be a very good revenue. I do not know whether he is going to leave it small or big, or whether he will hit a happy medium, but I would like to get something definite.


John Warwick King: I am sorry I have not with me the information as to the revenue. At present the tariff cannot be very great because the government section is merely a connecting link and their share of the tolls will be small. But with the metallic circuit that will give them a larger field and there will be an increase. I do not say it will pay; in fact, very few of these government lines do pay, but they give a service which could not otherwise be afforded, because private companies will not go into these districts. I will ascertain just what is anticipated in revenue and be glad to advise my hon. friend.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Is this a new link connecting up the west Kootenay and the east Kootenay systems?


John Warwick King: Not a new link, but an improved service. It is a metallic service, instead of underground.


John Jabez Thurston: I would like to know what the policy of the department is with respect to bonusing telephone systems in different parts of the country and just where this is done. Is it done only in British Columbia, or in other provinces as well? We have parts of Ontario, in my own constituency, for example where we could not persuade the Bell Telephone Company under any conditions to build a line, but the settlers themselves
got together and built a line. They did not expect to get a revenue from it; it was built just for their own service, and without any government assistance.


John Warwick King: This service is
largely applicable to Nova Scotia, more especially Cape Breton, which is sparsely settled and a rugged and difficult country, also to one or two portions of New Brunswick, some portions of Quebec, and then going west, it is applicable largely in Saskatchewan, northern Alberta, and the province of British Columbia.


Edward Joseph Garland: Just what justification is there in this particular district more than, for example, in the case cited by my hon. friend from Victoria (Mr. Thurston)? Why step in in British Columbia, and not in this case? Why is it not done all over? Possibly it is, but I want to know upon what basis will the federal government step in and construct telephone lines which are customarily constructed by the settlers themselves if they cannot get a corporation to come in and do it?


John Warwick King: I think my hon. friend, coining from the great west, knows that there are a great many isolated sections in northern Alberta where even the provincial government will not go in, but where it is necessary that there shall be some means of communication. The Dominion government have maintained that service to the advantage not only of the local people but probably of the people of Canada as a whole. Take the service in the Yukon, for example. No one will say that service was not necessary at the time it was constructed, or that it is not serving a useful purpose to-day. It does not pay a revenue sufficient to take care of the expenditure, but it is a service that has to be maintained.


Edward Joseph Garland: May I point out that in my own district many years ago we could not get a telephone service at all. We could not get the provincial government to build a line or a private company to go in, so we formed ourselves into a co-operative telephone construction (company and built our own line, put up our own poles and insulators, and bought our own machines and installed them. We did not have to appeal to any government, and I cannot for the life of me see why these people cannot do the same thing. Is there a national need for this line? If there is not, it is unjustifiable.


Donald Ferdinand Kellner: I think the minister is
wrong in saying the government have a line of telephones in northern Alberta. I never heard of it.
Supply-Public Works

_ Mr. KING (Kootenay): We have them up into the Peace river country, north of Edmonton, also running east and west of Edmonton.


Mr. HODGINS:: Are these local or trunk lines?


John Warwick King: Some are local
lines, and some trunk. The line under discussion a moment ago would probably be considered a trunk line, or at least a connecting link with a trunk line. I was asked a few moments ago as to (he costs of telephone operation. I have here a statement showing the cost of operation and maintenance and the revenue of the government telegraph service from 1920-1921 to March 31, 1925:
Operation and Maintenance Revenue
1920-	1921	
$1,005,494	90	$330,470	431921-	1922	
947,341	11	290.131	341922-	1923	
908,840	51	289.252	661923-	1924	
867,887	30	284.328	301924-	1925	
834,140	80	293,924	27
That shows a decreased cost of maintenance and operation, with the revenue slightly higher this last year than during the two preceding years.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Does that include the
Yukon?


John Warwick King: I think that includes the whole operation.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I think my hon. friend will agree that his first figures are entirely illusory for the simple reason that the dollar was of much greater value then than it is now. We have been getting rid of mileage, which largely accounts for the decrease in operation costs. We are now starting to increase the mileage here. Does my hon. friend think that is a good thing?


John Warwick King: We are improving the service, not increasing the mileage.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I am speaking of this item generally. We are having new mileage here.


John Warwick King: Some new mileage.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the
idea? The policy of the department was to reduce the mileage Now they are starting in with new construction.


John Warwick King: We will reduce the mileage where it is not necessary, but where settlement requires it, we will construct in all probability, as we have been doing in the department for years. During the last year we did cut out a very considerable mileage, especially in northern Saskatchewan, but

there will be some reductions and some additions from time to time.
Accounts Branch-salaries of agents and clerks, travelling and contingent expenses of outside service $21,000.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is that
item ?


John Warwick King: This is required
for salaries of agents, paymasters and clerks of the Accounts branch, outside service, exelusive of travelling and contingent expenses. We have at- the Westminster agency an accountant a clerk-bookkeeper and a senior clerk-bookkeeper. At the Edmonton agency we have three officials, at St. John, and in Manitoba we have an arrangement with the bank.


John Jabez Thurston: Is this in connection
with all forms of Public Works expenditure?


Henry Lumley Drayton: I wonder if my hon. friend has ever been able to find out just exactly what it costs to run the department, having regard to salaries and the cost of civil servants. We have often discussed this before, and I have pointed out time and again to my hon. friend and other ministers that I think it is advisable to get all our salary costs together so that we can know what they are. At the present time we have our salary costs for the inside and outside service, our costs under civil government, and further salary and clerical costs under various odd items. Could my hon. friend tell me what the whole cost of his department is in salaries of agents, employees and the like?


John Warwick King: I am sorry to
say I have not the memorandum which I had prepared a year or two ago. At that time we did make a compilation of the total cost of the service, showing the percentages and if my memory serves me right, the showing was not bad. Unfortunately that statement is not here, and it would be impossible for me to give an estimate of the cost. I will have it looked up and brought up to date and will be pleased to submit it to the committee later.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I just want the committee to realize how unfair it is to expect the minister to carry on business intelligently under such a system. He himself cannot tell whether he is economizing or anything else. He does not even know what his staff are costing him, and he says it will take him some time to calculate. A great effort was made two or three yeans ago to ascertain, and now he does not know. We ought to have something before us so that any member of the House would know at

Supply-Public Works
once what it is costing to run this department or that department. There is absolutely nothing in the accounts to tell us today. I do not wonder at the minister not knowing anything about his department.


John Warwick King: My hon. friend
is usually fair. He has had some experience in administration.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That is one
reason why I say this should be done.


John Warwick King: My hon. friend
could never tell what the cost of the Finance department would be, and that would not be difficult to estimate. But that statement was properly prepared and sent to the House two years ago, and I will also say that the statement at that time, if carried out to date, would show an improvement and a decrease in cost, and I will produce that statement.
I think the suggestion of my hon. friend that the minister should carry these things around in his head is not really what he intends or what he would do himself. I do not intend to do it. It is a large department, and it would be absurd to burden oneself with all these things. We have an idea oif the expenditure, but to estimate offhand and put on Hansard a statement as to the cost is something I do not intend to do and could not possibly remember.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I am not expecting my hon. friend to remember, but I am expecting that he would have it under his hand where he could get at it, and that he would have statements carried out in such a way that he would know something about it.


John Warwick King: My hon. friend
never did.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend is entirely wrong. I did it every morning.


John Warwick King: My bon. friend
did it?


Henry Lumley Drayton: ' If you run an office on a system it is easy to run it, and I had every single day the results as shown by the totals.


John Warwick King: Did my hon.
friend have the amounts paid every civil servant every day? Be reasonable and fair.


Henry Lumley Drayton: No, but I had
the annual expenditure every year, amounts paid out and the balances.


John Warwick King: Every day?


Henry Lumley Drayton: Yes.


John Warwick King: Well, that was
to be expected of the Finance department.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That was the
proper thing to do. But I say it is not much use getting out these statements one year if we are not going to have them again, and I should not have thought it was necessary to go to the trouble of employing experts to get out a particular statement of that kind.


John Warwick King: A statement every day in the Public Works department? Impossible.


Henry Lumley Drayton: No, I have not asked that and you know it.


John Warwick King: It is impossible
and you know it.


Henry Lumley Drayton: There is no
use getting down to childishness. It suits my hon. friend well. He can take to the bib as soon as he likes, but I am asking him what it will cost per annum in salaries to run the department.


John Warwick King: My hon. friend
has it in the estimates. It is there.


Henry Lumley Drayton: No.


John Warwick King: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I will ask the
minister what his salaries are costing him.


John Warwick King: I will be glad
to give the information.


Henry Lumley Drayton: He said a
moment ago that he could not tell. I would have thought, Mr. Chairman, that there should not have been much trouble getting this information.


John Warwick King: No trouble.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the
point?


John Warwick King: We will have the information and there is no occasion for making such a fuss over a thing of .this kind.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


Edward Joseph Garland: We are in
a terrible hurry. May I suggest to the minister that, not only would the ex-Minister of Finance possibly be glad of the information, but other members would appreciate it. Do not supply it to him alone, but let us all have it. I want to get the total salaries.


John Warwick King: I will be glad to give it at the next sitting.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Quebec Harbour Commissioners
Architectural branch-salaries of architects, clerks of works, inspectors, draftsmen, clerks and messengers of outside service, $73,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: What are the
particulars of this?


John Warwick King: It is the usual
item for that service, except that there is a reduction of $4,000.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Any resignations
there?


John Warwick King: Yes. Three positions have been abolished, amounting to a total of $6,960, and then there is an adjustment of salaries. The statutory increases amounted to $1,140.


Henry Lumley Drayton: How much has been put in for retirements or has anything been done in connection wiith retirements or pensions?


John Warwick King: I gave that information some nights ago when I discussed the civil government list. That has been all tabled by this department.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I do not know
whether that was in this list or not.


John Warwick King: It was.


Henry Lumley Drayton: It is not, so far as this vote is concerned.


@Acting Chair(man)? of Committees of the Whole: Carried.


John Warwick King: Has the item
carried, Mr. Chairman?


Henry Lumley Drayton: I think, Mr. Chairman you coul'd really respect the minister when he is on his feet trying his best to give us the information. Of course we are accustomed to that sort of thing here, but in the case of the minister may I appeal to my hon. friend to be considerate? But seriously, how can we .tell how much of those retirements and pensions which are shown in your general list is attributable to this vote?


John Warwick King: There are three
of the positions abolished which we show as being attributable to this vote.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Progress reported.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. P. J. A. CARDIN (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) moved the third reading of Bill No. 160, to provide for further advances to the Quebec Harbour Commissioners.
William Irvine: Mr. Speaker, when this bill came up for second

reading, it was brought on at a very late hour, and I did not at that time have an opportunity of expressing an opinion which I feel in duty bound to express. I, therefore, avail myself of this opportunity of expressing that opinion, and I will assure, the House that I will not take many minutes to do it. Hon. members from this side of the House have been pressing to obtain some information as to the need for this vast expenditure of money, and they also have endeavoured to find! out from the minister how the money is to be spent. So far the information given has been very meagre, and we have not been able to secure any intimation as to whether this $5,000,000 is to build docks, drydocks, wharves, flour mills, terminal elevators, or whatever it is to be devoted to. I frankly state that if I had been asking this House for a paltry $100 to fence in that huge hole in the street of Calgary which we have in lieu of a post office, I would have been ashamed if I could not have given a better account of what the money was required for than all the information that has been given in regard to this huge vote. If the government and those supporting this vote have failed! to give us the required information, it has been very clearly shown that at the present time there is not enough traffic to warrant this expenditure and that there are ample facilities at Quebec now to take care of all the traffic and business that the port affords. The government argue that facilities should be provided. They say: Only give us the facilities and let us trust to luck for the trade. If we were to start to build a $5,000,000 elevator at Banff in t)he centre of the mountains and say: Some day we shall have a shipping outlet to the coast there; only give us the facilities, it would be almost as reasonable as what the government is asking us to do in this case. There is no evidence that in the near future there will be sufficient development of trade from this port to warrant parliament to vote $5,000,000 to Quebec at this time. This policy, it appears to me, under the conditions that we are facing financially and from a business point of view at the present time is sheer madness. What is the actual situation? The Montreal interests are the chief competitors with Quebec in the shipping business. We are called upon from time to time to spend millions of dollars to dredge the St. Lawrence in order to enable ships to come up to Montreal. Now we are asked to spend $5,000,000 to keep the ships down at Quebec. I have no doubt that Montreal will win ultimately in this competition. It would appear that

	Quebec Harbour Commissioners
Montreal also has on its side the Board of Railway Commissioners. But in any event the taxpayers of this country cannot afford to play a game of this kind. I regard this vote as a crime against the helpless taxpayers of this country. It is the hand of a majority if this thing passes that is actually going into the public till and expending $5,000,000 of the public money without any reasonable account having been given of how it is to be spent and without showing that there is any real need for the expenditure. I regard this vote as purely and simply an election vote. It may get votes in Quebec, but beyond that it is not justified. I have noticed that a number of hon. members on this side of the House have been very apologetic in opposing this bill. They have feared lest Quebec members would regard opposition to this bill as opposition to Quebec. I have no apologies to make. I am not speaking against Quebec or any other province. I am speaking against the expenditure of $5,000,000, for which expenditure there is no apparent need and which has not been properly accounted for by the minister in charge of the bill. Further, if this bill is not defeated tonight, as it ought to be, we cannot altogether blame the government, because I .question whether the government has a majority to carry this if all on this side of the House were present and voted. I would not be surprised if, when the next election comes on, the government will demand to be returned on the ground that they do not have a sufficient majority. I notice that they have always had a pretty fair majority when they want to carry through something of this kind. I wonder if to-night those of us on this side of the House are going to permit a majority to carry this vote. If so. I repeat that we cannot altogether blame the government. Mr. GARLAND (Bow River): Does the hon. member refer to the extreme right end or to the centre? Mr. IRVINE: At the moment I am not referring to any end. I am referring to the whole side of the House. I am not going to make any suggestions about any individual or any group. But if we count heads on both sides of the House, I think we shall come pretty nearly defeating the government on this issue. Let us defeat the government on this issue. What kind of an appeal would the government make to the Canadian people on a $5,000,000 vote for nothing? I would not want any better issue to fight them on than that.. If we are to have an election within the next twelve months, let us make it 259	on this issue. Here is our opportunity and I hope we shall all embrace it. I would not oppose this so strenuously if the government had prepared a proper way of raising the money, but they are still following the interest route that they have followed in the raising of money with regard to all other expenditures. If the government would issue this over the five years over which we are told the expenditure will be spread, directly from its treasury department, without issuing it through the money lenders, and thus allow Quebec to pay the interest that will be charged to go against the capital account, Quebec might possibly get clear some day and we would not feel that it was absolutely hopeless in passing the vote. We would at least have stepped out in a new direction with regard to financing. But the money is going to be raised by the interest route as all other votes of money are to be raised. I suggest that no harm can come by postponing this vote. It is to extend over five years at any rate. Why not try to do with $1,000,000 this year, and then next year the minister might be able to give us more information? At least he might be able to say what he had1 done with the million. No harm can be done to any individuals, except perhaps politicians, by postponing this vote until the next session of parliament. I have heard pretty severe criticism levelled against the Senate since I have come into this House. But if the Senate of Canada would only hold up this vote, it would perform a very excellent service to the country and it would justify its existence to the people of Canada. If those of us opposing this bid are not numerically strong enough to defeat it I sincerely hope that the Senate will do so. I therefore move, seconded by the hon. member for Centre Winnipeg (Mr. Woodsworth), that this bill be not now read a third time, but that it be read this day six months hence. Mr. VIEN: I rise to a point of order: the member for Centre Winnipeg is not in his seat. Mr. IRVINE: He is not far away. Mr. WOODSWORTH: The member for Centre Winnipeg finds it next to impossible sometimes to hear what is going on; he was obliged to move nearer the chair.


John Millar: I was paired witlh the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Munro). Had I voted, I would have voted for the amendment.


Mr. SIMPSON:: I was ipaired. with the hon member for East Algoma ('Mr. Carruthers) Had I voted, I would have voted for the amendment.
iMr. KAY:	I was paired with the hon.
member for Wentworth (Mr. Wilson). Had I voted, I would have voted against the amendment.


Lewis Johnstone Lovett: II was paired with the hon. member for Charlotte (Mr. Grimmer). Had I voted, I would have voted against the amendment.
iMr. GORDON: I was paired with the hon member for Centre Toronto (Mr. Bristol) Had I voted, I would have voted against the amendment.


Mr. KYTE:: I was paired with the hon.
member for South Skncoe (Mr. Boys). Had I voted, I would have voted against the amendment.
(Motion agreed to on same division reversed, and bill read the third time and passed.


CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS EMPLOYEES' COMPENSATION
[Stage Direction]
Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways) (for Hon. A. B. Copip, Secretary of State) moved the second reading of Bill No. 167 to amend an act to provide compensation where employees of His Majesty are killed 01 suffer injuries while performing their duties.
Motion agreed to, ball read the second time and the House went into committee thereon. Mr. Gordon in the chair.
On section 1-subsection repealed.
Henry Lumley Drayton: Will the minister explain wha.t is being done?

Questions


Mr. GRAHAM:: 
[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Section 2 agreed to.
Bkl reported, read tihe third time and passed.
On motion of Mr. Mackenzie King the House adjourned at 11.55 p.m.
Wednesday, June 10, 1925