1925-03-24

THE RECENT EARTHQUAKE

Hon. CHARLES STEWART (Minister of the Interior):: Mr. Speaker, some days ago the hon. member for Charitevoix-Montmoreney (Mr. Casgrain) asked a question of the government which was replied to by the Prime Minister, as to whether any information had been received by the government with respect to the effect of the earthquake in the province of Quebec. I have in my hand a report prepared by an official of the observatory who visited the earthquake area, and I shall be glad to read it out, or I can lay it on the table.
Report tabled.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS BENGOUGH-WILLOWBUNCH

[Stage Direction]
Hon. E. M. MACDONALD (For the Minister of Railways and Canals) moved that the House go into committee at the next sitting to consider a certain proposed resolution in favour of a measure with reference to a line of railway between Bengough and Willow-bunch, in the province of Saskatchewan.
He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the House.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. E. M. MACDONALD (For the Minister of Railways and Canals) moved that the House go into committee at the next sitting to consider a certain proposed resolution in favour of a measure with reference to a line of railway from Regina to Avonlea in the province of Saskatchewan.
He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the 94
subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the House.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. W. R. MOTHERWELL (Minister of Agriculture) moved that the House go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to amend The Dairy Produce Act, chapter 28 of the statutes of 1921, by providing that the Governor in Council shall have power to make regulations for refusing to grade dairy produce and for withholding grade certificates.
He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the House.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. W. R. MOTHERWELL (Minister of Agriculture) moved that the House go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to amend The Meat and Canned Foods Act, chapter 27 of the statutes of 1907, by providing,-
(a)	That, for the purposes of the act, canned foods shall include foods that have been preheated, cooked, preserved, condensed, evaporated, dehydrated, dried or otherwise processed or prepared for food, and are placed in any closed can, bottle, package or container ;
(b)	That all canned fruit or vegetables or products thereof, or any food or food products which may be named by the Governor in Council, shall be offered for sale only in such cans or other containers as the Governor in Council may by regulations prescribe, and such cans or containers must contain the quality, quantity or weight prescribed by the regulations.
He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the House.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. W. R. MOTHERWELL (Minister of Agriculture) moved that the House go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to amend The Dairy Industry Act, chapter 7 of the statutes of 1914, for the following purposes:-
(a)	to make further provision for definitions of Dominion Analyst, illegal dairy product, oleomargarine, package and renovated butter;
[Stage Direction]
Live Stock Act
[Stage Direction]
(b)	to prevent the use of oil as an adulterant in butter, and to prohibit the keeping of foreign fats that might be used for adulterating purposes on the premises of any person engaged in the manufacture or manipulation of butter;
(c)	to avoid the necessity of proving that foreign fats have been added to skimmed milk in cases of infraction;
(d)	to provide heavier penalties for violation of the
act;	...	.
(e)	to authorize an inspector in addition to obtaining access to premises, to take samples, seize and remove illegal dairy products;
(f)	to empower the Governor in Council to make regulations respecting the seizure and confiscation of materials and packages used illegally, and to control the size and dimensiorfs of cheese hoops and cheese and butter boxes; and
(g)	to permit of the registered number of any package being accepted as prima facie evidence of the identity of the manufacturer, and that costs of analysis shall, upon conviction, be included in the costs of prosecution.
He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the House.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. W. R. MOTHERWELL (Minister of Agriculture) moved that the House go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to amend The Live Stock and Live Stock Products Act, chapter 18 of the statutes of 1923, by making provisions,-
(a)	to facilitate business on the stock yards by providing that all moneys received on account of sales for live stock sold by a commission firm on behalf of the owner thereof shall be deposited in a shipper's live stock commission account instead of a shipper s trust account as at present:
(b)	to provide for the licensing of egg buyers, egg collectors and dealers, and exporters of live stock, meat, poultry, eggs and wool;
(c)	to amend the power to make regulations as ;o the manner in which eggs found to be unfit for human consumption shall be valued and disposed of.
He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the House.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. W. R. MOTHERWELL (Minister of Agriculture) moved that the House go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to amend The Root Vegetables Act, chapter 43 of the statutes of 1922, and to provide,-

(a)	for a standard grade for onions or a uniform
size, the abolition of the grade known as " sample quality " and the substitution of a grade to be known as "ungraded"; and for the definition of peeled onions;	_	_
(b)	for permitting potatoes, onions, artichokes, beets, carrots, parsnips and turnips to be offered for sale by measure in quantities of one bushel or less instead of by weight, but the weight of the. contents thereof shall be proportionate to the weight of the contents of one bushel of such vegetables, as prescribed;
(c)	for making an inspection certificate signed by an official inspeator prima facie evidence of the grade and condition of the vegetables or packages to which the certificate refers; and
(d)	for exempting from the operation of the act certified seed potatoes only, as defined in the regulations under The Destructive Insect and Pest Act.
He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the House.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. H. H. STEVENS (Vancouver Centre):: I would like to draw the attention of your Honour and also the attention of the government to a question on the order paper which I asked yesterday, as follows:
What amount of insurance is carried on property in Vancouver: (a) In the name of the Dominion government; (b) In the name of Vancouver Harbour Commissioners ; (c) In the name of the Board of Grain Commissioners ?
To which the hon. Secretary of State replied :
This information has to be received from Vancouver. It will therefore be some time before the question can be answered. The same applies to question No. 8.
Now, I am in possession to-day of a paid advertisement appearing in the Vancouver Province, and also an official letter to the Vancouver Daily Sun, of March 17, both signed officially by the secretary of the Harbour Commissioners, giving an answer to that portion of my question which the Secretary of State said would necessarily have to be referred to Vancouver. What I want to draw to your attention first, Mr. Speaker, is that I conceive it to be the duty of the government to see that information with regard to questions is given to the House prior to being published as an advertisement in the press; and secondly I desire to ask if the government will look into this matter and see that members of parliament are accorded the courtesy, which is their perfect right, of receiving these answers prior to the information

The Budget-Mr. Robb
being given out in the form which I mentioned.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order, order.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I will hand the Prime
Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) the document to which I refer.


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: I am not cognizant of the facts, but I am pretty sure that the Secretary of State (Mr. Copp) gave to the House yesterday a statement in accordance with the memorandum sent to him from the department to acquaint him w'ith the position. I have no doubt the Secretary of State gave to the House exactly the information given to him officially. Referring to what appears in the newspapers, I am unable to say whether it is correct or not. Certainly the government would not place its reliance on what appears in the press. We would like to have an official statement from the Board of Harbour Commissioners of Vancouver before making a statement to the House.


Henry Herbert Stevens: What I am bringing to
my hon. friends attention is that this is a public statement, signed by the Secretary of the Board of Harbour Commissioners, Vancouver, a servant of the government.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The point is
as to whether the government itself has received this information from the harbour commissioners. I think there is no doubt whatever that the statement which the minister gave to the House is correct, and that so far official information has not come from the harbour commissioners. I hope that it may be possible to have it brought down speedily.



PORK-IMPORTATIONS AND RE-EXPORTATIONS

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. R. K. ANDERSON .(Halton):	On
March 4 last a question appearing in my name regarding the exportation of Canadian pork to England was changed to an order for return. Would the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Motherwell) assure us he will bring down the return as soon as possible?
William Lyon Mackenzie King: I assume the question my hon. friend refers to has been sent to the Minister of Customs (Mr. Bureau). His department has to do with the question of exports, and I will direct his attention to the matter.
94i



THE BUDGET


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. A. ROBB (Acting Minister of
Finance) moved:
That Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair for the House to go into committee of Ways and Means.
He said:	In presenting to-day the annual
statement of the financial affairs of our Dominion, may I express the sincere regret, which I am sure we all share, that our hopes and wishes for a speedy recovery of the Minister of Finance, the Right Hon. Mr. FidMing, have not been fully realized.
The Public Accounts for the financial year 1923-24 were tabled in this House on the 9th of last month. The consolidated fund revenues or ordinary receipts are shown as $396,837,682.22, being $837,682.22 in excess of the estimate given to the House last session; and $2,222,782.22 over the corresponding receipts for the previous year. Other receipts amounted to $9,743,635.74, which brought the gross revenue to $406,581,317.96.
The expenditure side shows $324,813,189.75 for ordinary expenses, being a decrease of $7,480,542.34 under corresponding expenditures for the previous year. Capital, demobilization and other charges amounted to $19,208,597. The gross expenditure was $344,021,786.75, or $6,586,759.97 less than for similar services the previous year.
The public debt was decreased by the amount of $35,993,593.86. Since confederation decreases of debt have occurred in only nine of the fifty-seven yeans completed; $35,993,593.86 is the largest decrease of any of those nine years, being $10,375,758.83 greater than that for any previous year since confederation.
Debt Reduction-How Arrived at
May I, before dealing with the outcome of the year 1924-25, which ends on the 31st of this month, ask the indulgence of the House to refer for a moment to a contention advanced last session in this chamber that the reduction of debt by some $35,000,000 was arrived at by a departure from the practice heretofore followed in dealing with loans to the Canadian National Railway system. The fallacy of this contention was fully explained by the Prime Minister from his place in this House. My reasons for referring to this matter in a budget speech are not so much in the interests of the party to which I have the honour to belong as in the interests of all who make up our national life. The attack at the time was weakened by the fact that no two of the critics seemed able to agree on just how many millions were involved and
1466	COMMONS
The Budget-Mr. Robb
to what extent the debt should -have been affected. During the recent recess of this House, these remarkable and fallacious charges have been reiterated in public speeches and	also featured prominently
in certain issues of the public press. Criticism of the public policies of any party is expected, but to step aside and charge an administration with altering the method of keeping our national records for the purpose of showing the financial position of the country to be other than it really is, brings with it a danger which I am sure is not fully realized by those carrying on such propaganda. We Canadians are in the process of becoming in the not far distant future a great nation. We are in the growing period. We must practise economy, but we must make such provision for the development of our country and of our transportation facilities as will be necessary to meet our growing needs. To meet the necessary capital charges required for national development we may need outside capital. If we require to go to a foreign money market for loans to be used for the development of this country, I submit there is danger that our credit, now at its highest point, may be damaged and that we may be called upon to pay higher rates for accommodation. It was not until I feared that such criticisms of the accuracy of our public records might result in impairing our national credit that I thought it worth while to take the necessary steps to have our balance sheet for 1923-24, the year concerned, examined by two of the most outstanding chartered accountants in Canada, men to whom no one could take exception. This was done for the double purpose of satisfying the people of Canada as well as those outside of Canada whose good-will and financial resources we might need in the developing of our country. On the 27th January, 1925, I received the auditors' certificate, a copy of which has been printed on the balance sheet on page 3 of the Public Accounts for 1923-24. The certificate reads as follows:
We have examined the balance sheet of the Dominion of Canada as at March 31, 1924, and we certify that the balance sheet conforms to the balance sheets of previous years in not including in the net debt of the Dominion, issues of the Canadian National Railway company and companies included in its system, which carry the guarantee of the Dominion of Canada. Such guaranteed issues are shown year by year as indirect liabilities.
Geo. Edwards.
Of the firm of Edwards, Morgan & Co.
W. Garth Thomson,
Of the firm of Peat, Marwick, Mitchell & Co_ Ottawa, Canada, 27th January, 1925.

Canadian National Railwaj^s-Accounts While guaranteed loans in the past have been issued for the purpose of taking care of deficits, capital and other charges, and treated in our public accounts as indirect obligations, I submit that it would be an ideal practice if, for the purpose of securing better terms in the flotation of Canadian National Railway loans, the guarantee of the Minister of Finance could be confined solely to loans raised for the betterment of the rail-wav system; and in this respect this administration has been singularly successful. The railway system -is now meeting its running expenses with a surplus left over for fixed charges. The railways are not called upon to pay out of their revenues interest on Dominion loans made to them by way of cash, although such is included in the annual railway budget as submitted from time to time by the Minister of Railways and Canals. They are thus relieved for the present from a very large annual commitment, and in consequence are able to carry on their capital and betterment requirements by loans guaranteed by the Minister of Finance. Net operating income surplus, together with the cash loans made by the government, meet the railway's fixed charges, which, of course, include interest charges on obligations held by the public.
May I here explain, for the information of this House and the country, the relationship of the Canadian National Railways' finances to the Dominion accounts? During war time stress it was deemed advisable, by the government of the day, in order to avoid a possible breakdown in our transportation facilities, to give substantial financial aid to the Canadian Northern Railway and its constituent companies. Very large sums of money were loaned to -the company, the government taking as security railway interest-bearing bonds or demand notes. These interest-bearing bonds or demand notes were, until 1920, treated as active assets and they so appeared in the federal balance sheet, being deducted from our gross debt in determining the net debt of the Dominion. The present Minister of Finance, Mr. Fielding, in this connection made the following statement in the H-ouse:
When the amount was not very great in proportion to our business, perhaps there was no need of any discrimination, but when these assets, under the operation of our railways, grew to very large figures, it became desirable or necessary that there should be discrimination.
He further stated:
My predecessor in office very properly made that discrimination by dividing our assets into active and non-active.

The Budget-Mr. Robb
The railway loans were, for the year 19191920, classified as non-active, thus increasing the net debt of the Dominion by the amount of the total of the then railway loans. The amount so added at that time by the immediate predecessor in office was $272,624,931.34. When tihe present Minister of Finance, (Mr. Fielding), took office, he continued the pdlicy of his predecessor, and that policy is still being followed. Each year government loans to the railway company are added to our debt, and the company's own securities issued to the public carrying the guarantee of the Minister of Finance are, as formerly, set out in our public accounts as indirect obligations. To illustrate: on the 31st March, 1922, the net debt of the Dominion stood at $2,422,135,801. On the 31st March, 1924, the net debt was $2,417,783,275, a decrease in the net debt of $4,352,526. The amount of loans to the railway company from the 31st March, 1923, to the 31st March, 1924, namely, $24,500,000, was added to the debt of the country. Fortunately, our financial condition was sufficient to more than offset this heavy addition to the net debt, and in spite of it we more than balanced our budget in that year by some $35,900,000. The total of our net debt, as of the 31st March, 1924, namely, $2,417,000,000, included the total amount of approximately $582,000,000 of railway indebtedness as up to that date.
The railway company from earnings are not yet able to meet the arrears of interest accumulated on our loans to the company. This government, following the policy of its predecessors, continues to relieve the company from the payment of interest. To do otherwise would require the increasing of our annual provisions in the estimates, thus adding to our debt on the one hand, and, after receiving back from the company the amount so provided in our estimates, crediting it to interest on investments account on the other hand, thus reducing our debt by the very amount by which we increased it. The total amount of these arrears of interest on the 31st March, 1924, was about $131,000,000, but it is not treated in our public accounts as an asset: it is held in abeyance only as an overdue account.
May I, before leaving this question of debt reduction, direct the attention of the House to the balance sheet of the Public Accounts at the close of the financial year 1923-24,
page 2, where will be found among our assets an amount of $43,612,756.16, cash left in our hands after the closing of our accounts for that year; and I submit the question: Is not the actual possession of so much cash conclusive evidence that we ended that year with excellent results? For the information both of this House and the country, may I point out that of this amount-the savings made- $34,500,000 -was segregated and deposited in an interest-bearing special account, until such time as the pressing needs of the country required it for our general purposes?
Last year the statement was made that during the fiscal year 1922-23 the Minister of Finance had paid out actual cash for all the requirements of the railway system for that year and that the same course should have been followed in the year 1923-24. It is perfectly true that during 1922-23 the Minister of Finance was able to meet the requirements in cash for all railway obligations including capital charges. In that year we received from the Imperial government $56,000,000 towards liquidation of large outstanding obligations incurred by the Imperial government during the war. The Minister of Finance thus found himself in possession of a large amount of cash which was not the outcome of that year's taxation, and rather than issue securities to the public, and thus incur an additional obligation with its annual high interest charges, he wisely took the position that, in view of the high interest rates then prevailing, it would be better to utilize this cash for all the purposes of the railways and allow that part of it for capital requirements to enhance the value of the road.
Parliament has made provision for our railway requirements by authorizing the government to make loans to the railways for all purposes by way of cash or by way of guarantee, or partly one way and partly the other. This was the nature of the authority asked for by our predecessors in office and is still the form of authority given by parliament. Parliament does not authorize the government to issue loans for railway purposes, except by way of guarantee.
Mr. Speaker, I now ask that the courtesy of the House be extended to enable me to put into Hansard a tabulated statement supporting the remarks I have just made as to the allocation of government aid, by cash or guarantee, given to the railways:
The Budget-Mr. Robb
[Stage Direction]
Statement of Loans to Rafiways for 1922-23, 1923-24 and 1924-25 made in Cash and Guaranteed Bond Issue under Authority of the Appropriation Acts
Deficit-Operating deficit, interest due public, and rentals of leased lines	1922-23 $36,722,181	1923-24 $20,356,198	1924-25 $21,343,940	Total $78,422,319Redemption of debt-including equipment trust principal payments and sinking funds	25,275,902	11,469,369	7,007,533	43,752,804Capital-Investment in road and equipment including acquisition of property	18,214,940	41,630,933	33,765,527	93,611,400Discount on Government Guaranteed Bond Issues	$80,213,023	$73,456,500 1,093,500	$62,117,000 1,910,000	$215,786,523 3,003,500$80,213,023	$74,550,000	$64,027,000	$218,790,023These totals are made up as follows: Loans by way of cash charged to the net debt of the Dominion	$80,213,023	$24,550,000	$18,027,000	$122,790,023Loans by way of Government Guaranteed bond issues	$50,000,000	46,000,000	96,000,000
While the estimated loans by way of cash of $18,027,000 for 1924-25 are short of the estimated deficits for this year by $3,316,940, the statement shows that for the three years under review the Government loans in cash have not only enabled the Railway Company to meet all deficits, including fixed charges due the public, but also left the substantial sum of $44,000,000 to be applied to capital requirements.
Financial Year 1924-25-World Conditions
Mr. Speaker, before dealing with the present financial year, which closes on the 31st of this month, I would like to refer to the disturbed world-wide economic conditions which affected all nations so disappointingly during the year 1924. Early in the year a still more pronounced business depression swept the European nations. Their vexed unsolved reparations problem, with no satisfactory suggestions towards effecting a readjustment of their difficulties, brought discouragement and depression. This gradually spread until it affected Canadian industrial and business activities. The ratification of the Dawes plan, providing for the establishment of an internationally controlled gold reserve bank of issue for the purpose of stabilizing the credits and currency of Germany, now carries with it a feeling of relief and hope as the first promising solution of the reparations problem.
Revenues, 1924-25
It will 'be some time before all returns for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1925, come to hand, but we are to-day in a position to estimate closely for the balance of the year's operations.
The actual revenues received by the Department of Finance up to and including 28th February last amounted to $308,994,207.71. The amount of revenues yet to come when the accounts for the year are finally closed is estimated at $35,005,792.29. This gives a total revenue of about $344,000,000, being a decrease of some $52,800,000 under the revenue of 1923-24.
The estimated revenue from customs duties will be $108,200,000, a decrease of some $13,-
300,000	under the previous year. From excise duties we expect $39,200,000, an increase of about $1,000,000. We estimate that the revenue from excise taxes will be $85,000,000, a decrease of about $35,600,000. From income taxes we estimate $56,550,000, being an increase of some $2,350,000. From delayed business profits tax we will receive some $2,400,000, a decrease of $2,350,000. From interest on investments we estimate a revenue of $9,350,000, 'being a decrease of about $2,550,000. We expect to receive $28,-
100,000	as Post Office receipts, being a decrease of about $750,000. From all other sources we estimate a total of about $15,200,000, being a decrease of about $1,500,000.
Mr. Speaker, I again request the courtesy of the House in order to place on record in the form of a summary the figures which I have just given.
[Stage Direction]
The Budget-Mr. Robb
Estimated
Receipts
Customs	 $108,200,000
Excise Duty	 39,200,000
Excise Taxes	 85,000,000
Income Tax	 56,550,000
Delayed Business Profits Tax.. ..	2,400.000
Interest on Investments	 9,350,000
Post Office	 28,100,000
All other Revenue	 15,200,000
[Stage Direction]
Expenditures, 1924-25
Coming now to expenditures, it is estimated that when all accounts are closed the expenditure for the year on ordinary account will be $319,700,000 a decrease, as compared with the previous year, of some $5,100,000.
Taking the estimated revenue for the year ending 31st March, 1925, as $344,000,000, and the estimated expenditure chargeable to Consolidated Fund as $319,700,000, there will be a surplus of revenue over the ordinary expenditure of $24,300,000 available for capital, special and other obligations.
Capital expenditure for public works, including Marine Department, will amount to some $6,697,000.
Capital expenditure for railways and canals will be $11,800,000, of which $11,000,000 is for the Welland Ship Canal. From this amount $420,000 is to foe deducted as refunds from previous years' expenditures,

$180,000 on account of the Welland Ship Canal; $141,000 on account of Hudson Bay Railway; $47,000 National Transcontinental Railway; $36,000 Canadian Government Railways and $16,000 from other sundry railway and canal services-leaving the net capital charges at $11,380,000. The total net capital expenditures for the year would therefore foe $18,077,000.
Special expenditures will amount to $4,400,000, made up of: adjustment of war claims $475,000; cost of and discount on loan flotations for refunding maturing loans $3,350,000; Consolidated Fund transfer charges $575,000.
Balance, 1924-25
Comparison therefore of the total of expenditures on all government services, namely, -$342,177,000, with our estimated) revenue receipts for the year, $344,000,000, will show that we have more than balanced the year's business on government services by the sum of $1,823,000; a remarkable result, I submit, in

Actual		
Receipts		
1923-24	Increase	Decrease
$121,500,798 49		$13,300,798 49
3S.181.747 33	$1,018,252 67	
120,676,375 89		35,676,375 89
54.204,027 99	2,345,972 01	
4,752,680 89		2,352,680 89
11,916,479 11		2,566,479 11
28,866,808 41		766,808 41
16,738,764 11		1,538,764 11
$396,837,682 22	$3,364,224 68	$56,201,900 90
344,000,000 00		3.364,224 68
$ 52,837,682 22		$52,837,682 22
which Canadians may feel a justifiable pride when we realize that this year, as a result in part of our policy last year in reducing the burdens of taxation, we will receive from the people $52,837,000 less than in 1923-24; and may I repeat that notwithstanding this large reduction in our revenues we will end the present year with a surplus of revenues over expenditures of $1,823,000.
In addition to this surplus on government business over the year's transactions, the sum of $4,000,162 must be taken into account as an improvement in our financial position by an additional active asset having been added to our balance sheet, arising from negotiations begun in 1922 by our High Commissioner in London with the governments of the kingdoms of Roumania and Greece for the consolidation of our loans to those countries, with arrears of interest, thus placing their obligations upon a sound financial basis. The arrears of interest were: Roumania $3,520,636, and Greece $479,526. The High Commisisoner was successful in coming to an arrangement with these countries whereby such arrears were capitalized and additional bonds issued and transferred to the Dominion of Canada. The debts at that date, with the interest added as capital, were: Roumania $23,969,720, and Greece $8,000,000, making a total of $31,969,720. This increased -asset over the capital amount of their debt, which previously stood in our books, was $4,000,162. Treasury bills previously deposited to secure the debt were backed only by the general credit of these countries. New securities given to the Dominion for the total indebtedness are further secured by specific charges on certain revenues of these countries. In the case of Roumania the service of the new bonds is a first charge upon export duties collected on wheat exports and other products; in the case of Greece, their obligations are a charge upon the revenues of 'the International Financial Commission appointed to administer
The Budget-Mr. Robb
[Stage Direction]
certain specified revenues of the Greek government for the purpose of meeting charges in connection with their external indebtedness. These governments have, since 1922, been paying their interest charges regularly and promptly, and in the case of Greece part of the principal in addition.
This amount of $4,000,162, now classified in our books as an active asset, although resulting from previous years' operations pertaining to our own public business, must be added to our surplus of $1,823,000 previously referred to, thereby making a total of $5,823,162 as the surplus of the results of the past year from government services.
Canadian National Railways-1924-25
If here I may digress for a moment, I would like to point out that in all budget speeches, as well as in the Public Accounts, the results of the country's own business transactions have always been dealt with separately and apart from other transactions, such as loans to the railways and merchant marine which, previous to 1918, were not provided for in our annual budget of estimates but were authorized by special acts of parliament. This year we presented our estimates for such services separately, in order to have them conform to the method followed in the submission of budget speeches and in the making up of our public accounts.
Parliament at its last session authorized $56,527,000 for loans to the Canadian National Railway Company. A further supplementary estimate has lately been placed on the table of the House amounting to $7,500,000, which will bring the total provision for 1924-25 up to $64,027,000.
As in previous years, provision has been made that the loans might be by way of cash or by way of guarantee of railway securities for any or ail of the requirements. Cash loans, provided that the full amount will be required, will total $18,027,000. The difference between the $18,027,000 and the total amount asked for has been covered by way of bond issues, carrying the guarantee of the Minister of Finance:-$20,000,000 three-year, four per cent. (4%) notes; and $26,000,000 thirty-year, four and a half per cent. (4i%) bonds, issued on the New York market under conditions distinctly favourable to the railways.
Apart from the annual vote, the railways were required this year to raise additional funds for special purposes. An issue of $9,-
375,000	four and a half per cent serial equipment trust bonds was sold. The money is being applied to the purchase of new equipment, which, following the usual' plan of

financing such issues, was pledged as security for the bonds. The government's guarantee was not required.
During the year securities of the Canadian Northern Railway Company, guaranteed by the Minister of Finance under the provisions of the acts of 1917 and 1918, respecting the acquisition of the Canadian Northern Railway system, fell due, as follows: $6,000,000 at five and one-half per cent; $11,000,000 at five per cent. These maturities were refinanced by a consolidated issue of $17,000,000 four and one-half per cent ten-year bonds guaranteed by the Minister of Finance under the same statutory authority. A further flotation of $18,000,000 four and one-half percent five-year guaranteed bonds was made under the provisions of the acts of 1924 respecting branch lines and Toronto Terminals construction, the proceeds of which are to be paid out as expenditures thereon are incurred.
Public Debt
I now come to the public debt. On March 31, 1924, our net public debt stood at $2,417,-7S3,274.88.
We will deal first with the business transactions pertaining to government services proper. Our ordinary revenues for the current fiscal year will be $344,000,000. Our estimated ordinary, capital, special and other expenditures will amount to $342,177,000, leaving a favourable balance in the year's operations of $1,823,000. To this must be added the sum of $4,000,162 previously referred to, making a total of $5,823,162 as a reduction in dealing with our net debt, on account of government services proper. This amount is available to be applied on account of our loans to the Canadian National Railways of $18,027,000; to Canadian Government Merchant Marine of $900,000; and to the Quebec Harbour Commission of $600,000, all of which, while being assets, but for the present considered as nonactive, are to be added, thereby making an increase of debt during the year of about $13,703,838.
During the fiscal year obligations amounting to $199,270,650 matured. In addition provision had to be made for the meeting of obligations to the value of £5,000,000 falling due in London on the first day of May, 1925. In consequence the total sum of $223,603,983.33 had to be provided for. As a result of the successful financing of the government the maturing obligations were met by new issues totalling $223,333,333.33, a saving of $270,650 and foy re-financing at better rates of interest a saving of $2,643,264.92 has been made in the annual interest charges.

The Budget-Mr. Robb
The securities which matured for which refunding loans were issued consisted of $91,-
315,000	five and a quarter per cent treasury bills held by the Canadian banks and $107,955,650 five and a half per cent bonds of the victory loan of 1919 due November 1st, 1924.
To meet these obligations, on September 15th, 1924, one-year four per cent notes amounting to $90,0GC,00O were sold to a New York syndicate at par. Later $35,000,000 four per cent two-year notes dated October 1st, 1924, and $50,000,000 four and a half per cent twenty-year bonds dated October 15th, 1924, were sold to a Canadian syndicate, realizing 99 for the two-year notes and 95 for the bonds. The syndicate made a public offering of the $50,000,000 twenty-year bonds, with conversion privileges to holders of maturing victory loan bonds.
On November 15, 1924, an issue was made of $24,000,000 one-, two- and three-year four per cent notes, $8,000,000 maturing in each year. This issue was sold to a Canadian syndicate at 99f.
Advantage was taken of the low interest rates prevailing on short-term borrowings to sell in London £5,000,000 six months four per cent Dominion of Canada treasury bills, dated February 1st, 1925, and maturing August 1st, 1925, for the purpose of retiring our £5,000,000 four and a half per cent bond loan falling due in London May 1st, 1925, upon which we exercised an option to redeem in advance -of the maturity date.
To sum up: The total of maturing obligations, including the sterling bonds, amounted
to $223,603,983.33, while the new securities issued represent a par value of $223,333,333.33, being a reduction of $270,650 in our outstanding public debt. There will also be an annual reduction in the interest rate of the refunding issues under the interest rates of the matured loans which will result in an annual saving of $2,643,264.92.
Trade
I desire, Mr. Speaker, to place on record a statement showing our trade with the Rritish Empire and with foreign countries. This statement shows that in our trade with the British Empire during the fiscal year ended 31st March, 1924, the balance of exports over imports was nearly $243,000,000, and in our trade with foreign countries the balance of imports over exports was nearly $78,000,000, making a net balance of exports over imports with all countries of $165,186,430. During the period of ten months ended the 31st January, 1925, the balance of exports over imports in our trade with all countries has increased to $263,414,526. During the first period there was a favourable balance with all countries excepting the United States of nearly $325,000,000 and an unfavourable balance with the United States of nearly $160,000,000; during the second period there was a favourable balance with these countries of nearly $328,000,000 and an unfavourable balance with the United States of nearly $65,000,000. With the permission of the House I shall place this statement or. Hansard.
DURING THE	CANADIAN TRADE FISCAL YEAR ENDED 31ST	MARCH, 1924	British Empire- United Kingdom	
Other British Countries	Imports 	
$153,613,003 	
41,772,629	Exports Domestic & Foreign $361,197,041 77,132,395	Balance of Exports over Imports $207,584,038 35,359,766Total, British Empire	
$195,385,632	$438,329,436	$242,943,804Foreign Countries- United States	Imports $601,295,121	Exports Domestic & Foreign $441,650,861	Balance of Imports over Exports $159,644,260Other foreign countries	
96,686,114	178,573,000	Balance of Exports over Imports 81,886,886Total, foreign countries	
$697,981,235	$620,223,861	Balance of Imports over Exports $ 77,757,374All countries- Total, all countries	Imports	Exports Domestic & Foreign $1,058,553,297	Balance of Exports over Imports $165,186,430
The Budget-Mr. Robb

[Stage Direction]
British Empire-
United Kingdom	
Other British Countries..
Total, British Empire.
Foreign Countries-
United States	
Other foreign countries
Total, foreign countries.
All countries-
Total, all countries	
Tariff Board
Since last session the revenue-collecting services of the government have been consolidated under one administrative head. Pending the removal of restrictions, imposed during the discussion of the estimates in this House, in the manner of appointment of its personnel, the formation of the board which it was proposed to constitute to investigate and study the various modes of taxation has not been proceeded with. It is now proposed to have this inquiry made as a part of the larger study of taxation in general, in conjunction with the survey of our customs tariff schedules upon which officers in the public service are already engaged. In order that an efficient organization may be effected, an item has been included in the estimates to provide for the salaries and expenses of a board of advisers to the Minister of Finance, whose duties are to inquire into all matters pertaining to the tariff and other forms of taxation and to advise the Minister of Finance in regard thereto. The policy of the government is that the board shall be made up in part of officers of the service having special knowledge of tariff and other taxation and trade problems, who will give a portion of their time to the work of the board. The remaining members will be persons specially qualified to advise upon such questions, who will give continuous time and attention to these and kindred matters. The government is of the opinion that expert and exact knowledge to be obtained in the manner mentioned should precede any general tariff revision and that, for the present, opportunity of unobstructed observation 
Imports	Exports Domestic & Foreign	Balance of Exports over Imports$121,884,189 38,148,314	$349,600,037 69,333,218	$227,715,848 31 184,904$160,032,503	$418,933,255	$258,900,752Imports	Exports Domestic & Foreign	Balance of Imports over Exports1415,332,165	$350,508,647	$ 64,823,518Balance of Exports over Imports75,529,886	144,867,178	69,337,292Balance of Exports over Imports$490,862,051	$495,375,825	$ 4,513,774Exports	Balance of ExportsImports $650,894,554	Domestic & Foreign $914,309,080	over Imports $263,414,526
of the effect of the extensive tariff changes made last year should be afforded.
Section 10 of The Electricity and Fluid Exportation Act gives the Governor in Council power to impose export duties on electricity. An order in council has been passed imposing an export duty for revenue purposes of three one-hundredths of a cent per kilowatt hour upon power, as defined in the said act. This duty will be payable on and after the first day of April, 1925. The rate will be equal to about $1.95 per horse power year.
A bill will be introduced providing for amendments to The Customs Tariff Act for the better enforcement of the sections for the prevention of smuggling.
Customs Tariff Changes
It is proposed to make very few tariff changes. The principal change will be in bituminous coal. The item "slack coal" is repealed, which puts this class of coal into the item of "coal, n.o,p." This change will remove difficulties in the administration of the act. There will be a slight 4 p.m. reduction on other -bituminous coal. The changes should encourage greater production of Canadian coal and also be of considerable advantage to Canadian transportation companies.
It is proposed to make a reduction in the rate on well-drilling machinery for deep wells and on engines for the propulsion of boats owned by individual fishermen.
The estimated increase in revenue from the amendments will be about $1,000,000.

The Budget-Mr. Robb
During the recess rolling mill rolls were by order in council placed on the free list. It has since been represented to the government that these rolls are manufactured in Canada. It is proposed to repeal this order, thereby restoring the rolls to their former rate of duty.
An amendment will be proposed to section 6 of The Customs Tariff relating to the special-or dumping-duty.
It is proposed to amend The Special War Revenue Act, 1915, by providing for a better definition of cheque, bill of exchange, etc. It has been found that the intention of the Act is being evaded by the substitution of other documents which cannot be rated as cheques within the meaning of the act. Welldrilling machinery and engines for the propulsion of boats owned by individual fishermen will continue to be exempt from the consumption or sales tax. A few other slight changes will be proposed.
Summary and Review
Mr. Speaker, I have submitted a statement of the financial position and trade activities of Canada for the current fiscal year and have made some comparisons with other years. But in making any comparison it should never ' be forgotten that the problems of Canada to-day are not comparable with those of countries whose people were not in the war so early nor so long as were the Canadian people. Canada was in the war from the day the first gun was fired. Into that struggle we, in common with many other nations of the world, poured our treasure, and what wa3 infinitely more dear, the life-blood of our country. Gloriously succeeding in our duty, our country four years later was freed from the struggle; but we found ourselves being borne along new and uncharted channels, channels which were strewn with and made dangerous by the wrecks of great nations, national discord and sectional strifes.
Moreover, upon the Dominion treasury had fallen the cost of our share in the war, the interest on the war debt, the pensions to our disabled soldiers and to the widows and orphans of our men who had fallen at the front. The present government, representing the will of the Canadian people, has constantly borne in mind the debt we owe to the disabled and the needs of the widows and orphans, which necessitated pension increases from year to year.
On the other hand, by reductions in general expenditures and by refinancing maturing loans, the government has succeeded in reducing the interest charges and also our annual expenditures, thus enabling. us last year to
report a material reduction in our net debt and this year a substantial reduction in taxation and a surplus in the government's own [DOT] administrative services.
The government has attempted to give a lead, which it is hoped will encourage general support of our policy of practising rigid economy in all public services, so that the costs of such services throughout Canada may be still further reduced.
The past year was not without its difficulties. Trade depressions in Europe reduced the purchasing power of the people of many countries and have adversely affected business on this continent. Short crops in some parts of Canada and the United States resulted in less labour being required for the harvesting; it meant fewer car-loads to be hauled; it limited charters for vessels and curtailed employment among those who are usually engaged in the moving of the crops from the farm to the seaboard. But there is a bright spot. Agricultural industries, especially in the prairie provinces, are now receiving the benefits of greatly increased prices for last year's crops, and these increased revenues are being applied, not to luxuries or comforts, but to wiping off the indebtedness incurred during the lean years. The farm, free from debt, brings more general economic value to the owner and to Canada as a whole than would be obtained from the free spending of profits for other than actual requirements.
Summing up our prospects, the immediate future looks brighter. No world state has a more self reliant and virile people than has Canada. But to achieve our destiny we must remove all sectional, all provincial, jealousies from our hearts; we must keep faith; forget all differences of tongue and creed; remembering only and always that we enjoy a great heritage; that we are Canadians.
I beg to give notice that upon the House resolving into committee, I shall move the following resolutions:

[Stage Direction]
1.	Resolved, That the first paragraph of subsection one of section six of The Customs Tariff, 1907, and subsection seven of said section six be repealed and the following substituted therefor:
In the case of articles exported to Canada of a class or kind made or produced in Canada, if the export or actual selling price to an importer in Canada is less than the value thereof for customs entry, there shall, in addition (to the duties otherwise established, be levied, collected and paid on such article, on its importation into Canada, a special duty (or dumping duty) equal to the difference between the said selling price of the articles for export and the said value thereof for customs entry; and such special duty (or dumping duty) shall be levied, collected and paid on such article, although it is not otherwise dutiable.
The Budget-Mr. Robb
[Stage Direction]
7.	Such regulations may also provide for the exemption from special duty of any article when the difference between the value for customs entry and the selling price thereof to the importer as aforesaid amounts only to a small percentage of its value for customs entry.
2.	Resolved, That schedule A to The Customs Tariff, 1907, as amended by chapter forty-seven of the statutes of 1919, chapter twenty-seven of the statutes of 1921 and chapter thirty-eight of the statutes of
1924, and by order in council , be further amended by striking thereout tariff items 101a, 587, 588, 591 and 591a, the several enumerations of goods respectively, and the several rates of duties of customs, if any, set opposite each of said items and to repeal paragraph (a) of regulation 1 of order in council, P.C. 1344, dated 5th day of August, 1924, designated as item 774 of the customs tariff, and to provide that the following items, enumerations and rates of duty be inserted in said schedule A:-
Tariff Items	-	British Preferential Tariff	Inter- mediate Tariff	General Tariff101a	Shaddocks or grape fruit, n.o.p. per one hundred pounds	50 ets.	$1.00	$1.00lOlaa	Shaddocks or grape fruit, when imported from the place of growth, by ship, direct to a Canadian port, per one hundred pounds	Free	50 cts.	$1.00453e	Engines to be used exclusively in the propulsion of boats bona fide owned by individual fishermen for their own use in the fisheries, under regulations prescribed by the Minister of Customs and Excise.	10 p.c.	12£ p.c.	15 p.c.469a	Well-drilling machinery and apparatus and parts thereof, and rope twenty-one hundred feet and over in length, capable of drilling wells of two thousand feet and over in depth, of four inches and over in diameter, and of raising and lowering casing over four inches in diameter for such wells, for drilling for water, natural gas and oil. and for prospecting for minerals, not to include motive power	5 p.c.	5 p.c.	5 p.c.553a	Braided candle-wick with or without wrire centre or braided taper-wick with or without wire centre wrhen imported by manufacturers of wax candles or wax tapers for use only in their own factories in the manufacture of wax candles or wax tapers	Free	Free	Free588	Coal, bituminous and coal, n.o.p. per ton	35 cts.	45 cts.	588a	Gas for heating, cooking or illuminating per one thousand cubic feet	6 cts.	591	Farm wagons, farm sleds, logging wagons, logging sleds, and complete parts thereof	5 p.c.	10 p.c.	10 p.c.591a	Freight wagons, drays, sleighs, n.o.p., and complete parts thereof	17£ p.c.	25 p.c.	25 p.c.
3. Resolved, That schedule B to The Customs Tariff, 1907, be amended by providing that the following items, enumerations, and rates of drawback of customs duties be inserted in said schedule B:-
Tariff Items	Goods	When Subject to Drawback	Portion of Duty (Not including Special Duty or Dumping Duty) Payable as Drawback
1045		When used in the manufacture of tubes enumerated in tariff item 397		
			99 p.c.
1046		When used in the manufacture of articles entitled to entry under tariff item 663b when such articles are sold to manufacturers to be used as specified in said item		
			99 p.c.
1047		When used in the manufacture of articles enumerated in tariff item 469a		
			99 p.c.
1048		When used in the manufacture of goods enumerated in tariff item 453e		
			50 p.c.
[Stage Direction]
The Budget-Mr. Robb SCHEDULE B-Concluded
Tariff Items	Goods	When Subject to Drawback	Portion of Duty (Not including Special Duty or Dumping Duty) Payable as Drawback
1049		When imported after the twenty-fourth day of March, 1925, by proprietors of by-product recovery coke ovens and converted into coke at their by-product recovery coke ovens. Provided that no drawback shall be paid under this item during any calendar month when the average ratio during that period is less than thirteen hundred pounds of coke from two thousand pounds of coal, also provided that drawback payable under this item is in lieu of drawback payable under any	
			99 p.c.
			
6.	That a request in writing by a customer of a bank asking the bank to transfer from the account of the customer to another bank a sum certain for deposit only to the credit of the customer in such other bank, and an advice in writing by a bank to its customer that a sum certain is placed to the credit of the customer for transfer and deposit only to the customer's credit in another bank, shall not be subject to the stamp tax prescribed by section twelve of the said act.
7. That in the case of the first complaint to the minister or any officer of Customs and Excise against a person for failure to properly stamp a receipt given by such person the minister may permit the person to affix the stamp in the manner prescribed in section fourteen of the said act within one mnoth of the date of the permit on payment of a penalty of ten dollars.
8.	That subsection four of section nineteen BBB of the said act as amended by section three of chapter sixty-eight of the statutes of 1924, being the list of excepted articles not liable to the consumption or sales tax, be amended by striking out of said section three of chapter sixty-eight the words " gasoline engines to be used in boats bona fide used by individual fishermen for their own personal use in the fisheries " where they occur in lines twenty, twenty-one and twenty-two, thirty-eight, thirty-nine and forty, and fifty-eight, fifty-nine and sixty of said section three; and that the said subsection four of section nineteen BBB be further amended by adding thereto the following:
" Vegetable plants; lasts for boots and shoes including rubber footwear and patterns for boots and shoes including rubber footwear; goods enumerated in Customs Tariff items 453e, 469a; articles and materials to be used exclusively in the manufacture of goods enumerated in Customs Tariff items 453e, 469a; materials, not to include plant equipment, consumed in process of manufacture or production which enter directly into the cost of goods enumerated in Customs Tariff items 453e, 469a."
9.	That the bond required under the provisions of subsection seven of section nineteen BBB of the said act to be given by a licensed wholesaler or jobber shall be for an amount not more than fifteen thousand dollars and not less than two thousand dollars.
4. Resolved, That any enactment founded on the foregoing resolutions shall be deemed to have come into force on the twenty-fifth day of March, one thousand, nine hundred and twenty-five, and to have applied to all goods mentioned in the foregoing resolutions imported or taken out of warehouse for consumption on and after that date, and to have applied to goods previously imported for which no entry for consumption was made before that day.

[Stage Direction]
Resolved, That it is expedient to introduce a measure (to amend The Special War Revenue Act, 1915, and to provide:-
1.	That " cheque " shall be further defined to include any document or writing, not drawn upon or addressed to a bank, in exchange for which a bank makes payment of a sum of money, except a coupon and a document used solely for the purpose of settling or clearing any account between banks, and that such a cheque shall be liable to the stamp tax imposed on cheques by the said act.
2.	That a bill of exchange transferred or delivered to a bank drawn upon a person outside of Canada shall, for the purpose of the value of the stamp to be affixed thereto, be deemed to be drawn for an amount not exceeding twenty-five hundred dollars.
3.	That no person selling foreign exchange shall for the purpose issue a bill of exchange drawn upon a person outside of Canada unless there is affixed thereto a stamp of the value of two cents for every fifty dollars up to twenty-five hundred dollars.
4.	That the stamp tax imposed by the said act on money orders or traveller's cheques shall be similarly imposed on money orders or traveller's cheques issued by a bank or other person.
5.	That any bill of exchange or promissory note held by a bank as collateral security for an advance or other indebtedness and in respect of which advance or other indebtedness stamps of the requisite value under this section are affixed to the relevant bill, note or other proper document, shall not be subject to the provisions of this section. If such collateral is paid by a person liable thereon stamps of the requisite value according to subsection 3 (a) of this section shall before surrender thereof be affixed thereto and cancelled by the bank.
1476	COMMONS
The Budget-Sir Henry Drayton
10.	That any enactment founded on paragraph eight of this resolution shall be deemed to have come into force on the twenty-fifth day of March, 1925, and to have applied to all goods imported or taken out of warehouse for consumption on and after that day and to have applied to goods previously imported for which no entry for consumption was made before that day.
11.	That any enactment founded on this resolution, excepting paragraph eight thereof, shall come into force on the first day of July, 1925.
Sir. HENRY DRAYTON (West York):: 
Mr. LAPOINTE:: Hear, hear.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend the Minister of Justice says "hear, hear". I would have thought that a lawyer like my hon. friend, lawyer as he is, and the legal adviser of this House, in connection with a matter like this would not want to change his opinion by reason of the angle from which he viewed it. No. What I am going to point out, Mr. Speaker, is this, that elsewhere, in other instances, it has been thought to be rather serious to capitalize interest that is never being paid, to consider a fictitious bookkeeping entry as a real entry. It is so easy to do these things. It is so easy for anybody to inflate their balances by charging up interest upon their uncollected or uncollectable debts, or their debts that are slow in collection. It is so very easy to do it, but some gentlemen who have done it today have been asked to do time at the public expense. What happened in the Home Bank case? One of the real charges against the directors of that institution was that they
carried forward interest that had never been paid, that they capitalized it, and went on pyramiding it time and time again, as if the advances were actually being made. So here we have had not a single cent of extra advance-still the same two countries, and despite what my hon. friend said as to the distressful condition of Europe, I am inclined to think they are going to come through. I hope so, and I hope the whole of this is collected, but this is a new and novel principle in national finance. I hope it will not be imitated by any more banks, and I do submit, Mr. Speaker, that what is not good enough for banks certainly ought not to be good enough for the Dominion of Canada.
I am going to deal with another matter which can be dealt with without reference to these resolutions. My hon. friend talks about our debt. He goes further and rebukes us, and very soberly, for having dared to suggest that the obligations which we incurred last year in connection with our railways should be considered our obligations. I will ask hon. gentlemen just for a few minutes to consider what they themselves in the past have said, and ask them whether they were serious and whether they were honest in what they said. From every corner of this chamber we have had hon. members who, when speaking of this railway question, have pointed out, one after the other, that our railway capital accounts were unduly swollen, yes, that if we were going to give the management any chance of ever making good, we should remove from the management that incubus that was always hanging over their heads, that impossible task of rnaking a showing against swollen and improper capital charges. Is there any doubt about it? Does a doubt exist in any part of the House? I have heard the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) say that in his view there should be a re-valuation and cutting down. Is there any doubt about it? There is no doubt about it. Everybody in this country, as well as everybody in this chamber, knows that we have a vast sum represented in the capital account of our railway that does not represent value. I wonder if I can venture to carry the judgment of hon. members with me a step further. If that statement be true-and it is accepted as true-what possible good do we do-except to try and deceive ourselves and lift ourselves by our own bootstraps-by treating a further investment in a corporation which we admit to-day entirely over-invested, not as a liability but as something that is sure to be good when we know it is not? We have heard gentlemen here talk earnestly and well as to the evils
1478	COMMONS
The Budget-Sir Henry Drayton
of watered stock and of watered capital. I wonder if any hon. member of the government will undertake the task of showing that there is not enough water in the capital of the national railway that is now being worked up by my hon. friend to employ the total activities of all the hydraulic engineers for a century. Why, it is there.


Mr. HOEY:: They seem to have removed
the tax from well-drilling machinery to encourage water.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That might help, but I doubt it, because my hon. friend will realize that that only makes more water, and we do not need it. Is this picture at all overdrawn? Do we not all really know that it is nonsense? Do we want to be parties to a fraud on the public? Is there anything else in it except that? I do not care what is done in the past in one particular year. The last year the former administration was in power, and when payments were being made, it has been shown that a certain sum-it does not matter how big it is, if it is wrong it is wrong -was paid out of one of these loans, the amount I forget. I have just two observations to make in that connection. I am not going to deny the statement one way or the other. I do not remember and do not know, but I know that when payments have to be made -and cash was none too free then-those payments are out of funds available and they go through. I do know that later on in the year accounts are marshalled, the payments are properly distributed; and in that particular year the marshalling of the accounts was not in the hands of the former administration but in the hands of this administration; and if those accounts were marshalled so as to show a payment out of moneys raised by loans for the railway company guaranteed by the government, which was not for a refunding purpose upon an obligation on which we were already liable, all I can say is that those accounts were wrongly classified. But never mind whether that is a fact or not, the question is not what was done one day, but what is right to-day. We are learning a little more all the time. We learn something this year. For example this year we learn that there is an increase in the capital debt of the railways of $118,000,000. And yet at the same time, with the piling up of capital of $118,000,000 in the one year-and these are not my figures, but the figures of the Minister of Railways (Mr. Graham) given in this House this session-this Chamber is asked to regard en-dorsation by the government of $81,000,000 this year, as a matter resulting in no obliga-
tion to the country. The idea is really too ludicrous to consider. My hon. friend says he has had accountants go over the matter for the purpose of showing that we are altogether wrong.


Mr. ROBB:: For the purpose of showing
that we have followed exactly the same procedure as my hon. friend followed when he was Minister of Finance.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I wonder if my hon. friend will go a little further with me. I have given him one case which I think existed during a long course of years, a course of years when the former government was met with this proposition; the railway was practically streaks of steel, disconnected lines, on which it was difficult to keep the trains, and the like, when we had to put up money by the hundreds of millions; and my recollection is that in all that time; and in the handling of all those millions, the only case the hon. gentleman has to refer to is one little tack which he has got to cling to namely what was done in connection with an advance or a loan-how much of it went that way I do not know-of $25,000,000 in the year 1921-22. If I am wrong, I ask my hon. friend to correct me. No, I am right. There it is, one little tack and that is all. If we are going to start in swapping improper practices, and this would be improper, surely my hon. friend has all the benefit that he ever ought to get out of it. If the amount was $25,000,000 in 192122, it was $50,000,000 last year in connection with a grant that was not for equipment. There was another grant last year of $22,500,000, but I am not referring to that. Does my hon. friend not honestly think that if he goes wrong one hundred per cent more than the wicked Tories went wrong, it is about time he quit? Would that not be a fair proposition? It strikes me that it would be fair, but there is something more than being fair to each other in this House. It is being fair to the Canadian taxpayer, to the public, to the country, and nothing done by any party or by any opponent can, for one instant, detract from our duty of being fair to the country at all times.
Once upon a time, the big annual additions to the railway debt were additions to the government debt. That is gone. Why? It is gone simply because, in order that the real state of affairs might not be known by the Canadian people, instead of paying railway obligations in cash, the government resorted to endorsations. The government in this respect outrivalled even the far-famed Mr. Micawber. He was very hopeful as to the

The Budget-Sir Henry Drayton
effect of giving a note-the awful liability was then paid. This government treated it even more lightly than that-the thing never existed -it is never to be considered at all!-it is never to be brought into our accounts. Let us see where we are going and let me give an illustration of how the percentages are being changed. In 1922-23, the government met railway claims by cash to the extent of $80,000,000. I have not the figures before me for the previous year, but while the amount was not as large as that, my recollection is that it was somewhere in the neighbourhood of $50,000,000, and the amount was greater for the year before. I have not those figures and I speak entirely subject to my hon. friend's correction. The public accounts are all open to him in a way that they are not open to ordinary members, because it means a great deal of work to find these things out. My hon. friend has the figures, and I venture to say that he will find that the percentages were as I indicated, showing heavy cash payments by the government annually in connection with the railway system. We have the heavy cash payments by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) of $80,213,000, and we have this year my hon. friend's payment of $18,027,000. In like manner the increases of last year in the railway figures were heavily weighted, in so far as the public borrowings are concerned, by outside money being brought in instead of governmental money. Last year if I remember rightly-and I speak subject to my hon. friend's correction-we voted $24,000,000, but the public took on new obligations of the railway company of $90,000,000. What we are doing this year is just what was done last year, only a little worse. How much capital work was done last year? Hon. gentlemen who have sat upon the committee of Railways and Canals know that it is very easy to have items which might one day be in maintenance, another day in betterments and finally in capital account. It is very easy to say that we issued last year $50,000,000 for capital account, and find it in lines you have already got standing on your books for more than they are worth, and then find, as the whole expenditure for new operations and new work, an amount of $2,186,000 as we had last year. The Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Graham) brought down the other day a return which showed the whole amount of capital construction done on the new lines that we gave the railway company the right to construct as $1,650,000, whereas the whole increase last year in connection with new cap-95
ital account was $118,000,000. Is it necessary for a reasonable man to go further than to point out that this company itself admits an increase in the current year of $118,000,000, when we affirm that that debt is our debt? Who owns the company? Surely, the country. Who is responsible for it? The country. Who has to finance it? The country. Who pays the money? Again, the country.


Mr. GOOD:: What was the balance of the $118,000,000 spent for?


Henry Lumley Drayton: I am sorry I cannot tell by hon. friend. As yet I have not had a copy of the annual report and I do not think it has been distributed this year. If hon. members have copies, I have not received one. I quite agree with the hon. gentleman in what he implies in his question, that it is high time that we had the report. The only thing I can say is this, that the return was brought down showing the whole amount that was spent on new construction to be, as I have already stated, $1,650,000. If there is any justification for this course of conduct my hon. friend has not given it. Let me put the matter in very plain terms, and I have no desire to be in the slightest degree offensive: my hon. friend has not given any justification any more than any other wrongdoer gives when he tries to justify his action by saying-"You too." That is the only justification we have had, we have had no other; and that is no justification at all. My hon. friend has not shown us that there were sufficient assets in that company to protect the country; we have not had a single word of satisfactory explanation; all that the minister has done has been simply to say, "You too." And that I submit is absolutely no justification whatever.


Mr. CAMPBELL:: Is the ex-Mmister of Finance (Sir Henry Drayton) in favour of revaluing the assets of the Canadian National
Railways and writing the capitalization down to actual value?


Henry Lumley Drayton: I am entirely in favour of doing anything which will make the situation clear and honest before the Canadian people. What I object to to-day is the practice of hiding liabilities, the practice of hiding commitments, the practice of hiding debts. I do not believe in it.


Mr. FORKE:: It comes to this, that the hon. gentleman objects to charging these accounts against the railways instead of against the country.

1480	COMMONS
The Budget-Sir Henry Drayton


Henry Lumley Drayton: Certainly. Let
me go over it again for a moment.


Robert Forke: I think I understand it.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Very well. I
might have to labour the point were it not for the fact that we were told only a few days ago of an addition of $118,000,000 in connection with this responsibility. Will hon. gentlemen stop and think for a moment what that means? That sum would build most new systems; indeed, all it cost to build the whole of the great National Transcontinental-and no money was skimped on that job-was some $164,000,000. And here we have a new capital cost in connection with the National Railways of $118,000,000, although we have spent altogether in the past year only $1,650,000, on new construction. I wonder whether there is a single hon. gentleman in this House except the Acting Minister of Finance (Mr. Robb)- no, I will not except him-who does not realize that this really means an increase in the debt of the country this year of approximately $100,000,000. Is there really anyone who would seriously challenge that statement? My hon. friend, it is true, shows only $81,000,000 of an endorsation; the railway company shows $118,000,000 of increase in capital; and he has shown, if I took down his figures correctly, a refunding of $17,000,000. If there is a refunding it should of course be taken off. But I would point out that we have a right to consider that the railway accounts as tabled by the Minister of Railways are true. That is the first thing. And if they are true and the increase is $118,000,000 then it is also true that this is a net increase covering, and being over and above, all refundings.


William Charles Good: May that not be represented
6y real railway assets at the present time, to some extent at least?


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend is quite right; I suppose it is covered by some assets. But there is certainly not enough of assets to cover it appreciably. And in any case, is it any more represented by a physical asset than would be the case either with a harbour or with a dry dock? Is there any more reason for showing honestly in our books the cost of our canals and the like? What difference is there, seeing that the railways are ours? We have in connection with them either assets or liabilities and if we are to be honest about it we should show the exact state of affairs. I submit therefore that my hon. friend's calculation as to debt is entirely wrong. There is just one modification which the situation may suggest, and it certainly is

not apparent to us. The railways say that they advanced their capital $118,000,000, but I can hardly understand how that could take place unless they have some cash on hand; and to the extent that they have cash on hand I quite agree that that amount might be deducted.


Mr. HUGHES:: Was there any of this large amount wasted through extravagance and bad management, or from any other cause whatever? And what is the remedy? What remedy can the Canadian people apply to meet the situation?


Henry Lumley Drayton: The first remedy to right a wrong is to let some light in; let the light in and let us know where we are. That is all I want to have done. And as for knowing anything about the matter, my hon. friend is in far closer touch with the situation than I am.


James Joseph Hughes: No. I was not on the committee that looked into these accounts last year; my hon. friend was.


Henry Lumley Drayton: But the hon. member will agree that last year we had not the accounts that are involved this year. If this budget had been held back until the railway annual account had come down I might be able to answer my hon. friend; I should at least have had an opportunity of going into the matter. Perhaps the hon. gentleman can suggest the reason for the budget being down in advance of that report.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Why the rush?


James Alexander Robb: May I be allowed to remind my hon. friend that in bringing down the budget to-day before the end of the year we are following precedent. In 1916 parliament met on January 12 and the budget was brought down on February 15; and in 1915 although parliament met on February 4 the budget was brought down on February 11. We are now within one week of the end of the year whereas my hon. friends brought their budget down six weeks in advance.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I have not quarrelled at all to-day about the budget coming down at this time. I have not the slightest objection. But the hon. gentleman from Kings, Prince Edward Mand (Mr. Hughes) was asking me about the accounts of the railways, and I am simply pointing out this one thing, which is plain to everybody, that we cannot consider those accounts to-day because the accounts are not down, and the only information I have from the Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Graham) is that there-

The Budget-Sir Henry Drayton
is an increase of $118,000,000 of debt. As I say, no one can tell what the real condition of the country's debt is. From the figures of my hon. friend it looks very much like an addition of eighty-one, plus that sixteen, minus the seventeen which he gave us as refunding, which would make it eighty. But if the railway company is right, all refundings are taken care of in their $118,000,000, and therefore it looks as if the total should be $118,000,000, plus the $16,000,000 my hon. friend admits. So much for that.
I now want to touch upon another point which my hon. friend stresses in his admirable collection of statistics, highly suitable for his budget, namely, the statistics showing the prosperous condition of trade. I congratulate him on the care he has taken in their compilation. He has selected just exactly the right kind of statistics to suit his text. At one time there was a controversy, which I am not going to renew now, as to business failures in Canada. I notice the accuracy of our figures has been mildly challenged because some of the businesses included in the list were too small. Well, I would have thought that this government would not want to take the position that they are only interested in the success of the big businesses, and that they would look after the little ones as well. I would point out that if ours were very small in Canada, they were even smaller in the United States, because the average liability of failing firms in Canada in 1924 was $58,467 as against S55.063 in the United States.
But, Mr. Speaker, I would direct the attention of my hon. friend and the House to the fact that the trade in which the country is immediately interested and which is more vital to it than anything else is its domestic trade, the trade which cannot be disturbed by customs laws or be put, out of joint by ocean freight rates and the like; it is trade which is the country's own. My hon. friend has given us some very attractive statistics of big export business, and nobody will question those statistics, but it would really have been much more to the point if he had given us something showing our internal activities, something showing that the purchasing power in our home market was not. a disappearing power. Now, there is one index which is considered authoritative and fundamental as showing these activities; I refer to the freight tonnage carried by our railways. The railways carry practically everything that we make or produce. In the first instance we have a great loss of wheat tonnage, amounting to 2,300,000 tons. That certainly was not the fault of this government any more than the great crop of the year 95i
before was their virtue; that is something which has nothing to do with their fiscal policy one way or the other. But the great mass of agricultural consumption in this country at any rate depends on local demand, the power of somebody in the local market to pay for the goods, and I am pointing out some startling declensions in railway tonnage as showing eloquently the decreased activities locally in Canada practically everywhere, decreases all the more marked in view of the increases in export trade, because while we have the decreases mirrored here those decreases would have 'been much greater had there not been increases in the export of the same articles carried over the same lines. Last year our railways carried 38,161 tons less of apples; 9,752 tons less of eggs-and there are many eggs to a ton; of hides and leather 17,922 tons less-and that means an awful lot, but it is a pretty good indication of the condition of the boot and shoe business. If you really want to see where the benumbing effect of tariff tinkering with its attendant uncertainty is at its worst you have only to look at the iron and steel industry.


Robert Forke: Where did the hides go?
Sir HENRY DRAYTON; They did not go. That is what I am complaining about. I am complaining that the demand fell down to such an extent in this country that 17,922 tons less of hides and leather were handled,- something, I take it, that a farmer ought to be interested in. Now then, the drop in iron ore tonnage was 443,403 tons; in pig iron and bloom 275,547 tons; in rails and fastenings 50,757 tons; in bar and sheet iron, structural iron and iron pipe 639,105 tons; in castings, machinery and boilers 144,858 tons. As hon. gentlemen well know, the activities of our foundries and other iron and steel plants depend to a large extent upon other manufacturing activities-and these other manufactories were not there to be looked after. The movement in coke, something which is almost entirely industrial, fell off 266,326 tons; the movement of raw cotton fell off 32,488 tons; cement 49,308 tons; brick and artificial stone 135,686 tons; lime and plaster 62,023 tons; agricultural implements and vehicles, other than automobiles, 58,458 tons-


William Charles Good: Between what calendar years is the comparison made?
Sir HENRY DRAYTON; Between the calendar years 1923 and 1924. These figures are given by the railways. The movement in household goods fell off 38,743 tons; in furni-

The Budget-Sir Henry Drayton
ture 4,008 tons; in canned meats 1,123 tons; other manufactures and miscellaneous 844,887 tons, and merchandise 327,538 tons. This list covers many diversified activities. But take forest products, which are divided into five headings: first, logs, posts, poles, cord-wood; second, ties; third, pulpwood; fourth, lumber, timber, box shooks, staves, headings; fifth, other forest products. The only thing we are going ahead in is the depletion of our pulpwood reserves. While pulpwood shows a large increased tonnage, on the other band there is a considerable decrease in logs, posts, poles and cordwood of 75,390 tons; in ties 16,287 tons; in lumber, timber, box shooks, staves and headings, 835,465 tons; and other forest products of 111,240 tons.
These reductions are serious in the extreme. For example, the reduction in tonnage in hides and leather was 9.3 per cent; coke, over 26 per cent; iron ores, 72 per cent; slate dimension or block stone, 57 per cent; lumber, timber, box shooks, staves, heading, 11.9 per cent; other forest products, 17.75 per cent; iron, pig and bloom, 43 per cent; rails and fastenings, 18 per cent; bar, sheet iron, and so forth, 38.6 per cent; castings, machinery and boilers, 23.6 per cent; agricultural implements and vehicles other than automobiles, 20.99 per cent; and household goods, 34.7 per cent.
My hon. friends say that the country is prosperous and that a lot of business is being done. Well, let us see what the figures with respect to railway employees show in this connection. In October, 1923, 177,876 men were employed in railway services in Canada, and in the same month in 1924 there were 156,338 employed, a decrease of 21,538 in respect to that one month. For November, 1923, the number employed was 164,724, and for November, 1924, 149,209, a decrease of 15,515, while in December, 1924, there was a decrease of 10,305 in the number employed as compared with the same month in 1923. We find that the decreases continue pretty steadily, because while in October 1923 there were 177,876 employed, in December, 1924, there were only 143,761. I am inclined to believe, Mr. Speaker, that the only person who really thinks that conditions are good, that production is good, that employment is good, must be my right hon. friend the Prime Minister.
Mr. Speaker, I move the adjournment of the debate.


Mr. MEIGHEN:: May I suggest to the
Acting Minister of Finance (Mr. Robb), before the motion carries, that he be prepared on Thursday before the resumption to give 
the House an estimate of the increased revenue which he anticipates from the increases in the tariff in the various schedules.


James Alexander Robb: Did I not make that statement?


Arthur Meighen: I did mot catch it, if
it was in the address.


James Alexander Robb: About a million dollars.


Arthur Meighen: That was one item, as
I understood it, there are several others.


James Alexander Robb: I will check that up.
Motion (Sir Henry Drayton) agreed to and debate adjourned.
Right Hon. IV. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) moved:
That the order for consideration of the motion for Mr. Speaker to leave the chair for the House to go again into committee of Ways and Means have precedence over all cxther business except the introduction of bills, questions, and notices of motions for the production of papers, until disposed of.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Except to-morrow?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Mr. MANIQN:: Does that supersede private members' day on Monday next?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It postpones
that private members' day until after this budget debate is over.


Arthur Meighen: I understood the Prime
Minister to assure the House a week ago, or about that time, that there was no intention of superseding private members' day on the following Monday.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My assurance
at that time was that Monday as private members' day would be continued for three additional Mondays. That, of course, the government intends to adhere to. I think I made it cleaT that when the budget debate commenced it would have precedence.


Hewitt Bostock: Is it the pleasure of the
House to adopt the motion, with the addition of the words, "except on Wednesday, March 25t'h instant?"
Motion (Mr. Mackenzie King), as amended, agreed to.



CANTEEN FUNDS

[Stage Direction]
The House resumed, from March 5, consideration in committee of a proposed resolution with regard to the distribution of the canteen funds-Mr. Belaud-Mr. Gordon in the chair.

Canteen Funds
Robert James Manion: I must confess I have not
my thoughts quite in order regarding this resolution, because until last night I had no idea the matter was coming on quite so soon. We rather had the impression, due to the budget and other matters, that this question of canteen funds would not come up for a week or ten days. I am not criticizing the minister in that respect; I am simply mentioning it for the purpose of emphasizing the fact that I have not had an opportunity of going into it quite as thoroughly as I intended doing before dealing with it.
We are dealing, I presume with the resolution as a whole. With regard to the question of the taking of $100,000 from the canteen fund for the purposes of an adjustment bureau, I do not think there is any doubt in the minds of most of us that some form of adjustment bureau is needed in Ottawa; at least I have no evidence to the contrary. We will therefore take it for granted that there should be some form of adjustment bureau acting as an intermediary between the returned men or their dependents and the different departments of government. I am not convinced that the present adjustment bureau is the proper one, neither am I convinced that it is not; I have quite an open mind on the matter. But I am convinced that whatever adjustment bureau we have in Ottawa should be entirely independent of any department of government. In other words, the Minister of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment or any other minister of this government or any other government should not have the right to dictate the policy of that bureau. The only proper method, it seems to me, is to have trustees appointed, not by this government nor by any government, but by this parliament or in part by this parliament, those appointed in that way to choose the rest of the members of the board. The choice should be so made that the members of the board shall not be influenced in the matters they have 5 p.m. to deal with, either by the government or by the opposition, or by any political group. It is the desire of all of us, I believe, that this adjustment bureau shall be entirely for the benefit of returned soldiers and their dependents, and that in no manner, shape or form should politics have anything to do with it. I shall take occasion later to discuss that point more thoroughly; at this stage I simply put it forward as one of the suggestions that ought to be given consideration.
There is another suggestion I have to offer with regard to clause 2, which provides:
The sum of $100,000 to be paid to a Central Board of three trustees appointed by the Governor in Council-
My suggestion differs in the method of appointment. I believe that if these trustees are appointed by the Governor in Council, you will have them more or less in the hands of whatever government is in power, or in the hands of the department concerned. The clause goes on:
-without remuneration, to be used in such amounts and such manner as it may deem best for the maintenance and assistance of an adjustment service and bureau for the benefit of ex-service men and their dependents#
I differ entirely with the proposal to take this $100,000 from the canteen funds for this purpose. If these canteen funds are a trust fund-and they are-then, to my mind, this $100,000 should not be taken from such funds for any services on behalf of the returned soldiers or their dependents. I admit, and I think most hon. members will also admit, and the government apparently admits by this resolution, that there is some need for an adjustment bureau for the returned soldiers and their dependents, that without such an adjustment bureau to deal directly with the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment or the pension commission they could not get full justice; if they could, there would be no need of this bureau. I am not saying that with the idea of any special criticism of the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment or the pension commission. But the government admits, and we all admit, that there is some need of an adjustment bureau in order to give justice and fair treatment to the returned men and their dependents. Then if there is that need, I do not think the cost of such a bureau should come out of the canteen funds, because these canteen funds belong to the returned soldiers themselves. They are made up of the moneys collected in the canteens as profit, and they are a trust fund which should be retained entirely for the returned soldiers and their dependents. Therefore, I do not believe that this $100,000 should be taken from the canteen funds at all. It should be put in with the balance of the fund and dealt with as the balance of the fund may ultimately be dealt with.
I submit that what we should do in connection with this adjustment bureau is to pay for its upkeep just as we would pay for the upkeep of the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment or any other department, with this exception, that whatever money it costs to keep up the bureau should not be doled out by the ordinary methods.
Canteen Funds

and be subject to criticism and checking up by parliament or by the department; it should be paid over as a trust confided by us, as the Parliament of Canada and the representatives of the returned soldiers, to these trustees to handle in an absolutely independent manner. I am informed that even the present type of adjustment bureau could be carried on for something under S20,000. Without knowing much about it, I think perhaps it .might be carried on for this amount; I believe there has been an estimate by Mr. Grant MacNeil himself that such a bureau could be carried on for something under $20,000. Now if we decide that this sum is enough to carry on this bureau on behalf of the returned soldiers, I would say that that amount, $20,000, should be voted annually here in the ordinary way in the estimates, and be handed over to the trustees who are to act as the representatives of the returned soldiers, and act without remuneration. Men such as Sir Arthur Currie would be an excellent type to handle this fund, men who are acting absolutely independently of any government or opposition.
Those are two suggestions I offer for changes in this resolution, at least with regard to the bureau, and I presume those changes would have to be made in the resolution if they are to appear in the bill.


Mr. SPEAKMAN:: Would not that suggestion be open to the same exception which was taken by the hon. member for the appointment of trustees by the government, in that it might leave the trustees susceptible to influence by the government, who in the final analysis must be held responsible?


Robert James Manion: There is always a possibility that the trustees might be influenced by the government or by the opposition, but they would be less likely to be influenced by the government or by the opposition if they were independently appointed.


Alfred Speakman: That was not my point. It was this; Could not the same exception be taken to the voting of the annual amount by this parliament and to the payment by parliament as the hon. member takes to the appointment of trustees by the government, m that the payment of that money by means of a government estimate might tend to influence the trustees in the use of that money?


Robert James Manion: I do not think they would be influenced by parliament voting the money. It is parliament that votes the money, not the government. If the people of Canada are to pay for the adjustment bureau, the money must come from some

place, and the only place it can come from is this parliament. It is not a proposition of the government or of anybody, but a method of handing over the $20,000 to be used by the trustees who are independent of anybody, on behalf of the returned soldiers and their dependents. What I am suggesting and endeavouring to do is to have no influence in any shape or form used upon the trustees by myself or by any group, but they should be as far as possible independent of the government and opposition and of the Progressive part}' or any other group in this House.


Alfred Speakman: I am afraid the suggested method of payment might make these trustees susceptible to influence by the government.


Robert James Manion: If my hon. friend can suggest a better method, I have an absolutely open mind. I do not know how we can give $20,000 per annum for the next two or three years for a board of trustees to handle except in the manner I have suggested; but if my hon. hon. friend can suggest a better method, I am quite open to conviction. I have simply offered my own suggestions.
There may be other matters in the resolution with which I do not agree. I am not convinced that the method of handling these funds is altogether correct, and suggestions may be made later with which I may agree. But I am offering these two particular suggestions for the consideration of the committee, and I repeat that so far as I am concerned I have an absolutely open mind on the matter. I have this desire, however, and I think it is the absolute desire of the majority, if not of all of us,-to handle this fund and the central adjustment bureau entirely-one hundred per cent-for the assistance of the returned soldiers and their dependents.


Hon. H. S. BELAND (Minister of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment):: I must thank my
hon. friend for the spirit he has displayed in the submission of his remarks in connection with the disposal of the canteen funds. I note that he makes some suggestions in connection therewith, one in particular bearing upon the mode of appointment of the board of trustees to administer that portion of the fund, namdly $100,000, destined for the maintenance of an adjustment bureau in the city of Ottawa. If I understood my hon. friend aright, he suggested that the trustees might be appointed by parliament. I have sat in the House of Commons for over twenty years, and I do not know of a single occasion upon

Canteen Funds
which an appointment has been made directly by the House of Commons. On numberless occasions parliament has clothed the Governor in Council with the power of making appointments either of a commission or of a board or of trustees, but I have not-and I can say this with oertainty-known of a single instance in which appointment to public office has been made by parliament itself.


Robert James Manion: I do not wish to interrupt the minister, but if he will permit me, I would say that we have never had such a case as this before. This is the first time we have had canteen funds and the care of the returned soldiers and their dependents. In ordinary cases I admit my bon. friend is absolutely correct, but this is an extraordinary case such as we have never had in the past, and such as I hope we shall never have again. It is a trust for the benefit of the returned soldiers and their dependents, and I am sure my hon. friend is as desirous as I am of having dt handled in a proper manner. I think that because of that fact it might be handled differently from the ordinary appointments of the government.


Henri Sévérin Béland: The only way by which
this could be accomplished would be to come back at the next session of parliament with a bill providing for the appointment of trustees by parliament. I do not see any other way.


Robert James Manion: I was not prepared to discuss this matter to-day and I did not have my thoughts arranged; but I wish to make one other suggestion. I am sure my hon. friend would not object, and as far as I am concerned I do not think anyone would object, to Sir Arthur Currie, for instance, being chosen as one of the trustees. Suppose we could get him to act, and then appoint some other man in whom people would have as much confidence as they have in Sir Arthur Currie, and make provision in the bill that they could appoint a third trustee; in that way we could put the matter through in very short order, possibly not this afternoon but by adjourning consideration of this matter for a day or two we could appoint two trustees and let them appoint a third.


Mr BELAND:: I think the suggestion of
my hon. friend deserves consideration. Speaking of Sir Arthur Currie, I may frankly say to the House that it was my intention to ask him to act as head of the trustee board. I have no objection to informing the House that I had gone so far as to draft a letter to him, which draft I have in my possession now.
Of course if you appoint two trustees, and ask them to appoint a third, it might happen that one trustee might insist upon the appointment of a certain party as third trustee, and the other trustee might insist upon appointing another party, and if they were divided in that way I do not know exactly how the appointment could be made. This proposal I have brought before the committee, to appoint a board of trustees to be known as the central board of trustees, is in pursuance of a special recommendation of the royal commission which dealt with the question of the disposal of the canteen funds after investigation from one end of the country to the other. That commission recommended that a central board of trustees be appointed, and that an amount of one hundred thousand dollars be paid over to them. The statute would provide that they the board should administer that money as they deemed best, in the interests of returned men, for the maintenance of an adjustment bureau. il may say that my own particular party interest, if I have any strong party interest at heart, would lead me to keep far away from the administration of that hundred thousand dollars. There is no question that the task is not an easy one, and that the trustees to be appointed will have many difficulties to contend with, many claims and many appeals which will render their task rather onerous. The recommendation of the royal commission I think is the right one. I would invite my hon. friend to read the bill passed last year based on a similar resolution, and he will find that provision is made for the distribution of the residue of the canteen funds, some $2,300,000. That distribution is to be made to the different provincial governments in the following manner. Every provincial government will be invited to appoint a board of trustees. The lieutenant governor in council in each province will have the choice of the board of trustees, in that province. In the province of Ontario the board of trustees will be composed of five men; in each of the other provinces, of three men. In the case of the central board, as well as in the case of the other boards, the majority of the members must be ex-service men. If we apply to the central board of trustees the suggestion which my hon. friend has submitted, why should we not extend it to all the lieutenant governors in council. For the provincial board, in some cases deals with a much larger amount of money; forty-one per cent of the total sum goes to the province of Ontario, or about a million dollars; so that the board of trustees appointed by the lieutenant governor in council in Ontario will have
Canteen Funds

functions as important, if not more important, than the functions of the central board.


Robert James Manion: If the matter can be put
through as the minister suggests I think it should be done. Let us place the boards of trustees in the provinces on the same plane as the central board. I am as anxious as the minister to get it out of politics in the provinces as well as in the Dominion. I am trying to get it out of politics in the country, and will go as far as the minister suggests, in this regard.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am not adverse to the
idea, but dealing for the time being with an adjustment bureau and a central board of trustees, appointed for the purpose of distributing the money which is provided under this resolution, I am bound to say that this board cannot be functioning before another session of parliament has been called and has sat. If the bill passes the House of Commons and the Senate it will not be assented to before the day of prorogation. If it provides that a board of trustees shall be appointed by a special bill submitted to parliament reciting the names of each of the trustees, then of necessity the appointment of the central board will be postponed another year.


Mr. CLARK:: If the trustees are actually
named, why will that postpone the work under the bill for another year?


Henri Sévérin Béland: If I did that for the central board of trustees, which might be possible, I would be precluded from doing it in the case of the provinces.


John Arthur Clark: I understood the minister
was now considering the adjustment bureau. Let us consider that. If we can get something better than we have got under that heading, then let us consider the other when we come to it; but the fact that we are able to improve the adjustment bureau feature of it should not make it necessary to make any change in the next portion of it, though we may have some suggestions to make as to that when we have it under consideration.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I do not know how it
could be done unless we bring down a bill to appoint a board of trustees and name the trustees. And how can I be warranted in doing that when the legislation is not enacted?


John Arthur Clark: The second paragraph of
the resolution reads:
The sum of $100,000 to be paid to a central board of three trustees appointed by the Governor in council, without remuneration, to be used in such amounts and such manner as it may deem best for the maintenance 
and assistance of an adjustment service and bureau for the benefit of ex-service men and their dependents.
What connection has that paragraph with any other paragraph? If a bill is brought down, and as regards this particular portion of the resolution, the central board of three trustees are named in the bill, how is that going to prevent the operation of the bill for another year?


Henri Sévérin Béland: What is exactly the concrete suggestion of my hon. friend?


John Arthur Clark: I am merely following what the hon. member for Fort William and Rainy River has said.


Henri Sévérin Béland: In connection with this
clause of the resolution, my hon. friend says that the difficulty can be overcame. I am willing to overcome the difficulty. I show my good disposition; will my hon. friend suggest to-day how it can be done?


John Arthur Clark: I will, right now. Supposing the hon. member for Fort William and Rainy River says that he will be satisfied with Sir Arthur Currie, I have a suggestion to add to that. Let the council of the Dominion Veterans' Alliance, constituting seven of the major soldiers' organizations, name two members of the board. Then we have two appointed and let them appoint a third. If they fail to agree, I have no objection to the Governor in Council making the third appointment. I am convinced, however, that those two would arrive at a decision, and then neither this government, nor the opposition, nor anybody else, can be under the charge of this fund being manipulated for political purposes.


Henri Sévérin Béland: The suggestion of my hon. friend that this fund of $100,000 may be used for political purposes is not well founded. The resolution itself is a sure guarantee that it cannot be so used. No government would undertake to appoint a board of trustees composed of three men who would not be acceptable to the returned men, for the very reason that the government would suffer therefrom, to say nothing of the public interest or that of the returned men. I call my hon. friend's attention to this further point. Let us suppose that we insert the name of Sir Arthur Currie in a clause of this resolution. It remains to be seen whether Sir Arthur Currie is agreeable to act.


John Arthur Clark: That can be found out by
telephone.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I do not think we generally legislate by telephone. When we are engaged

Canteen Funds
14S7
on a piece of legislation in this House, I do not think we should adjourn the committee and go to the telephone and ask a certain party whether he is willing to act or not.


John Arthur Clark: The minister could get an
answer between six and eight o'clock.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I will do this, which will
show the hon. member what an open mind and an impartial spirit I am bringing into this resolution. Let the resolution pass and I will try to draft a clause in the bill which will meet the wishes expressed by my hon. friend. I am not saying that Sir Arthur Currie is willing to act as such trustee or as head of such board, I cannot, of course, undertake to pledge myself as regards Sir Arthur Currie. If he is willing to act, I am willing to ask him. If I say here as a minister in charge of a bill that if this becomes legislation I shall ask Sir Arthur Currie to be head of the board of trustees, I think that should be sufficient for my hon. friend. Would anybody doubt my word in this regard.


Mr. LADNER:: Does the minister approve the suggestion that two members be named by the Dominion Veterans' Alliance?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have no objection at all to receive a suggestion from them.


Leon Johnson Ladner: And as the hon. member for Buirard (Mr. Clark) has suggested, to leave the appointment of the third to those two gentlemen?


Henri Sévérin Béland: And if they cannot agree, the appointment of the third to be left to the Governor in Council. I am quite willing.


Robert James Manion: We are not in any way desiring to obstruct this legislation, so that if the minister thinks we are, he is drawing a wrong conclusion.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am not.


Robert James Manion: The minister asks us to let the resolution go through. It is now half past five and we have many things to discuss in regard to this resolution. Therefore, I am sure the minister does not expect that the resolution will pass before six o'clock. Let us think of these things between six o'clock and eight. I would not doubt the minister's remark that he would be willing to draft a clause in the bill, but I would want to think over the whole scheme before absolutely concurring in his statement. As it is now half past five, there is no reason why we should decide absolutely upon that point now. Might I read some of the remarks of Sir Arthur Currie which are contained in one
of his letters to the Prime Minister of May 7, 1923. This deals with both aspects of the case as suggested by myself, so that I do not claim any originality in the matter. This is a letter which is in the return brought down the other day. Sir Arthur Currie says, speaking of the adjustment bureau:
I am firmly convinced that such an organization i* desirable and necessary and Mr. MacNeil informs me that the Hon. Dr. Beland and yourself-
This is to the Prime Minister.
-hold similar views. I believe myself that such a service is a proper charge upon government funds and its maintenance could be justified to the members of the House. On the other hand, I do not believe it would be wise for the government to organize directly this proposed service, because if it did the service would soon become as bureaucratic as any other government organization and its decisions would not be as acceptably received as if the members of the organization constituting the service were entirely removed from government control.
This is absolutely along the lines mentioned. He continues:
I suggested to Mr. MacNeil to put before you the idea of creating a small board of some three or four members who would not be .paid for their services but who would be responsible for engaging the members of the adjustment service board or the advocates board, or whatever else you might call it. I, myself, would be glad to serve on such a board.
You have it on record that Sir Arthur Currie would be willing to act.
And I suggest that men like Major-General J. H. MacBrien, C.B., C.M.G., D.S.O., Major W. H. Her-ridge, D.S.O., and almost anyone else you care tc have, would constitute a suitable committee. This committee could arrange with the G.W.V.A. headquarters, or with certain members of it, to do the necessary work.
He goes on to discuss the financial arrangements. I read this to show that Sir Arthur Currie, who no doubt has the confidence of all classes in this country irrespective of his politics, is entirely of the same opinion that some of us have expressed here. In fact I rather think that idea came from Sir Arthur Currie because I read it before I expressed these views. It appears to me to be a very wise precaution, and I give the minister credit for being as anxious to make this nonpolitical as the rest of us are. There is no desire on the part of any of us to get kudos or advertising in connection with the soldiers or anybody else, but there is in the minds of all hon. members a desire to have this fund handled in such a manner that it will give the soldiers and their dependents every service and at the same time, not be manipulated by the government or the opposition or the Progressive party or any other group in this House. That is my whole intention in offering the suggestion. As regards the proposal of the minister, I would ask him to
14S8
Canteen Funds

allow us to discuss other phases of the matter and let the discussion of this particular phase stand over until after supper. I do not see the difficulties in the matter that the minister puts forward. For example, he says that if two trustees are appointed, they assuredly will not decide upon a third; that one will want one man and another another man. I do not believe that is a correct statement.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I said that they might.


Robert James Manion: I understand. I do not
think that is a correct statement, because, as a matter of fact, we have good evidence that again and again in much more difficult matters to handle than this fund, this procedure has been undertaken and carried out. For instance, in the Lemieux Act which orders that conciliation, in certain cases of strikes be attempted, I think it is the law according to that act that one of the conciliators be appointed by the men, the second by the employer, the third to be appointed by the two; or in case of these two failing to agree, the Minister of Labour appoints the third.
I would be willing to agree to the appointment of two men, one by parliament and one by the Dominion Veterans' Alliance, and if these two could not agree on the appointment of the third man- then I would not object to allowing the minister or the Governor in Council to name that one. I do not want the minister to think that there is any desire on our part to hold the matter up on that account, but I would suggest that we allow the question to stand until after eight o'clock and in the meantime discuss other sections.


Leon Johnson Ladner: The resolution differs in
section (2) from the Ralston report, although in all other respects the two are identical. The Ralston report provides that the sum of $100,000 is to be paid to a central board of three trustees, at least two of whom have had overseas service. The resolution omits this proviso; there is no reference to those words, "at least two of whom have had overseas service."


Henri Sévérin Béland: The hon. member will remember that last year there was a clause in the bill relating to that very point. This is a resolution we have under consideration, but the bill I have before me based upon it contains a clause providing that the majority of the board shall consist of ex-service men.


Leon Johnson Ladner: That is the first point.
The other point I think is even more important. The Ralston report provides specifically that the amount is to be used "by the 
central board of trustees" from time to time, in such amounts and in such manner as it may deem best, for the maintenance and assistance of an adjustment service and bureau for the benefit of ex-service men and their dependents. The resolution as submitted reads:
The sum of $100,000 to be paid to a central board of three trustees appointed by the Governor in Council, without remuneration, etc.
The point I make is this. It is all important in this piece of legislation that the board be as far as possible detached from any government-


Henri Sévérin Béland: We agree.
Mr. L.ADNER: -so as to avoid the possibility of bureaucratic domination which it is thought sometimes exists in government departments, although the belief is not always warranted. The success of the adjustment bureau conducted by the Great War Veterans' Association has been attributable largely to the confidence placed by the soldier body at large in that organization, in the conviction that it was not influenced nor dominated by either governments or governmental departments. As there seems to be a difference between the resolution and the report, I would ask the minister whether in his opinion the principle is that the money is to be used by the central board of trustees from time to time as they see fit and not as the Governor in Council may see fit.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am not supposed to say
in advance what the bill contains but I will read the section of the bill relating to this matter, which as the hon. member will see is word for word what he has suggested:
Tile sum of $100,000 shall be allotted and paid to the central board of trustees to be expended by such board from time to time in such amounts and in such manner as it may deem best for the maintenance and assistance of an adjustment service and bureau at Ottawa for the benefit of ex-members of the forces and their dependents.


Leon Johnson Ladner: I presume there are no
other clauses in the bill which would abrogate the principle that the central board of trustees is to control.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Absolutely none.


Leon Johnson Ladner: I bring this to the attention of the minister because the resolution omits the words, which are so clearly stated in the Ralston report, that the sum is to be used by the board.


Henri Sévérin Béland: My hon. friend knows that the resolution is only a general review of what the bill will contain.

Canteen Funds


Leon Johnson Ladner: But the resolution on other points, take for example section (3), is identical with the report.


Mr. HARRIS:: With all the money that
we are spending on the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment and on our appeal boards here, there and everywhere, it seems to me unfortunate that we should find it necessary to take this $100,000 and put it in the hands of either a central or an intermediate board for distribution. To my mind this does not permit of the money accruing directly to the ex-service men. We all agree that this money must be distributed, but as to the establishment of a board for its distribution, that is another matter. Section (2) of the resolution provides that the money is to be paid to the central board-
To be used in such amounts and such manner as it may deem best for the maintenance and assistance of an adjustment service and bureau for the benefit of ex-service men and their dependents.
I think that the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment together with its branches is the institution that should function in this matter, and some other method should have been devised for distributing the money than handing over to a board $100,000 belonging to the ex-service men. I want to put on record for the information of the government two or three telegrams representing the feeling of some of my constituents in this regard, and it will be seen that their ideas are not entirely in accord with those expressed by my hon. friend (Mr. Manion) and by the hon. member for Burrard (Mr. Clark). I represent in this House 110,000 people and my constituency, which covers an area of 30 square miles, embraces centres of population one within a mile of the other, where there are organizations of returned men which exist for the purpose of looking after the dependents and widows of soldiers, as well as taking care of cases of distress. Some of these organizations call themselves Great War Veterans while others are known as returned men's clubs, veterans' clubs, and so on. I did not know that this matter was coming up or I could have been prepared with the facts in this regard. Speaking offhand, however, I may say that there are some seven different clubhouses in my district, one of which was honoured by His Excellency the Governor General who performed the ceremony of turning the key in the lock when the clubhouse was opened, another clubhouse His Excellency honoured by allowing his name to be used in christening it, and it is now known as the Byng Memorial Hall. I have heard it said, and I have seen
it stated in the press that in these clubhouses perhaps a little personal or political strife is stirred up, but I would point to what they have achieved in the last few years and what they will continue to achieve-the taking care of cases of distress which would otherwise be neglected. When I place on Hansard what they say I want hon. members to consider that the messages are from men in the different communities who are trying to do their part as they see it. The first is dated February 27, and is from the Riverdale Great War Veterans' Association, 453 Broadview Avenue, Toronto, an institution whidh possesses assets worth perhaps $20,000 in the form of a modem clubhouse, and looks after upwards of five or six thousand returned men and their dependents. The president says:
Government should retain canteen funds and interest intact. Veterans' Alliance not now recognized by Ontario command G.W.V.A. Kindly convey this information to your Toronto colleagues.
Davidson,
President.
Here is another message from the same branch saying:
Please strenuously oppose grant of one hundred thousand dollars from veterans' canteen funds to Veterans' Alliance.
The next is dated March 16, and is from the Beaches branch of the G.W.V.A., Toronto, which is in a thickly populated district and looks after the interests of about four thousand returned men and their dependents:
Beaches branch G.W.V.A. strongly opposed to Veterans' Alliance application for one hundred thousand dollars from canteen funds to be used in operating a service bureau in Ottawa.
Alexander Magee,
Secretary.
Then the East Toronto branch of the G.W. V.A., which owns a property valued at between $5,000 and $6,000, and serves a community of upwards of one thousand returned men and their dependents, sends me this message:
Strongly protest government action regarding grant of canteen fund to Dominion Veterans' Alliance. Stand by us.
Another message under date of February 27, is from Mr. Shields, I think the secretary of the Toronto and district command. He says:
Our contention is that canteen money should not be used for any organization that does not represent the returned soldiers.
My last message, Mr. Chairman, is from the Scarborough Returned Men's Club, and is dated March 13, 1925:
At a special meeting at the hall, BirchcliSe Heights, on March 13, a resolution was passed strongly protesting against the proposed grant of $100,000 by the Dominion government to the \ eterans' Alliance from
Canteen Funds

the canteen fund. We as veterans at a joint meeting think that the money belongs to the returned men and not to the government, and should not be spent otherwise unless sanctioned by the ex-service men as a whole in the Dominion. We trust you will do all in your power to avoid this action being taken.
I concede, Mr. Chairman, that these wires may not be drafted to meet the wording of the resolution, as I note that the government do not propose to grant the fund to the Veterans' Alliance, but I merely put these messages on record so the minister will have them as a guide in this connection. Before taking my seat, let me again emphasize what is uppermost m my mind, that surely the government has some body which would have the confidence of all sections of the House and which would not appear to be in any way political, even if it was appointed by the hon. minister, so that it would not be necessary to spend some of this money to appoint an intermediate bureau.


Henri Sévérin Béland: In reply to my hon. friend, what he suggests is exactly the proposal to which my hon. friend from Rainy River (Mr. Manion) and my hon. friend from Burrard (Mr. Clark) take exception. If I understood my hon. friend (Mr. Harris) aright, he suggested that this $100,000 should be disposed of through some government agency-some department or some branch of the public service.


Robert James Manion: He suggested that, but
the telegrams did not. The telegrams are in accord with what we suggested.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am dealing with the
remarks of my hon. friend from East York (Mr. Harris). I do not agree with him that the government should dispose of the money direct. As a matter of principle I agree with my hon. friend from Rainy River, that it should be handed over to a board which is absolutely beyond governmental influence in every province as in Ottawa. That is the idea, and if the bill can be shaped to make that more certain than it is now, I am quite willing to accept any suggestion to that end.


Joseph Henry Harris: Is it not possible to supply this $100,000 from government funds instead of taking it from the canteen funds?


Mr. MacLAREN:: I think the minister
will recognize that the general principle governing the Canteen funds is that those funds are the property of the men. That being so, is he following out the principle in allocating $100,000 of the funds for the establishment of a bureau? If such a bureau is essential in the interests of the men to look after their pension and other interests, then the expense

of its establishment comes fairly under governmental expenditure. To meet the expenses of the bureau out of funds belonging to the men I do not think is justified. Under the circumstances I should be glad to have the opinion of the minister on the point I have raised, namely, whether a portion of certain funds belonging to the men should be taken to establish a bureau the expenses in connection with which I think should properly be met by the government. We have had brought to our notice a number of objections raised by returned men in one part of the country regarding the proposal to set aside this $100,000 from the canteen funds. Perhaps the minister will inform us whether he has received similar protests. My view is that we are departing from the principle of regarding this money as the property of the men if we take a portion of it for the purpose of establishing a bureau. If that bureau is necessary, then I think the cost of it should be a governmental charge.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I regard the adjustment
bureau as a very useful agency. It affords the men a good deal more satisfaction to deal with the department or with the pension board through an agency of their own. Up to the present, aside from certain assistance given by the former government and! this government to some of the returned men's associations, these duties have been carried out by the associations at the expense of the men. The recommendation of the royal commission that $100,000 of the canteen fund be set aside for the purposes of an adjustment bureau is animated by the same spirit as that in which my hon. friend's remarks are made, because the men will to that extent be relieved from contributing toward the maintenance of the bureau. This recommendation was made by the royal commission after an investigation extending over a year, during which they went into the whole problem and obtained the views of returned men from one end of the country to the other. I believe it is a proper recommendation. Indeed, I submitted it last year and I think the House unanimously agreed that it was a proper course to follow.


Mr. ROSS (Kingston):: Not unanimously.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Well, I did not hear any
strenuous objection last year. The hon. member says he did not agree, but I understood that the resolution and the bill based upon it were adopted unanimously by the House. At all events I think the recommendation is a good one. As to the board of trustees, if some suggestion can be offered by which this

Private Bills
board will be made entirely independent of government control, I shall be willing to accept it.


John Arthur Clark: Before six o'clock is called,
may I remind the minister that considerable information was requested at the last sitting of the committee and that it might be useful to have that information here after dinner?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Is it with regard to the
disablement cheques? These have been produced.


John Arthur Clark: Laid on the table?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I think so, yes.


John Arthur Clark: There were other questions.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I think all the information has been tabled.
At six o'clock the Speaker resumed the chair and the House took recess.
After Recess
The House resumed at eight o'clock. PRIVATE BILLS



WEST VIRGINIA PULP AND PAPER COMPANY

[Stage Direction]
The House resumed from March 20 consideration in committee of Bill No. 13, respecting a patent of West Virginia Pulp and Paper Company-Mr. Jacobs-Mr. Gordon in the chair.
On section 1

Extension of time for payment of fees.
The CHAIRMAN:: Sections 1 and 2 were stricken out in the Private Bills committee and the following substituted therefor:
If the patentee designated by the patent mentioned in the preamble to this act or his assignee or other legal representative makes, within three months from the date of the passing of this act, an application to the Commissioner of Patents for an order restoring and reviving that patent notwithstanding non-payment of fees or failure to manufacture within Canada the invention covered by the said patent, the provisions of section forty-seven of The Patent Act, except the two years' limitation of time for such application contained in that section, shall apply to that patent, and complying with those provisions the Commissioner of Patents may make either an order restoring and reviving the patent or an order dismissing the application.


Robert James Manion: It has just been drawn to my attention that the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) . asked on the last evening this bill was up that it should stand. I do not know whether he wishes to discuss it or not, but perhaps if the hon. gentleman in whose name the bill stands has no objection, this bill could stand until
the hon. member for Vancouver Centre is present.


Mr. JACOBS:: I have no objection, provided it is understood that the bill will be proceeded with to-night. This bill usually comes up when I am not here. After all, the bill stands in my name, and not in the name of the hon. member for Vancouver Centre.


Robert James Manion: I quite understand that.
Bill stands.



PATENT ACT-EDGEWORTH GREENE

[Stage Direction]
The House resumed from March 29 consideration in committee of Bill No. 14, respecting a patent of Edgeworth Greene-Mr. Jacobs-Mr. Gordon in the chair.
On section 1-Extension of the time for payment of fees.
George Newcombe Gordon: 'Sections 1 and 2 were stricken out in the Private Bills committee and the following substituted therefor:
If the patentee designated by the patents mentioned in the preamble to this act or his assignee or other legal representative makes, within three months from the date of the passing of this act, an application to the Commissioner of Patents for an order restoring and reviving any or all of the patents mentioned in the preamble to this act, notwithstanding nonpayment of fees or failure to manufacture within Canada, or the importation into Canada of the invention or inventions covered by said patents, the provisions of section forty-seven of The Patent Act, except the two years' limitation of time for such application contained in that section, shall apply to such patent or patents, and complying with those provisions the Commissioner of Patents may make either an order restoring and reviving the said patent or patents, or an order dismissing the application.


Mr. MACLEAN (York):: I would like to
ask if the Minister of Justice has Looked into these bills to see if public rights are safeguarded.


Ernest Lapointe: When these bills were
before the committee the other day, I think my hon. friend from Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) took some objection, and when I came into the House he asked me to consult with the officers of the crown as to the legality of the things which are asked by these bills. I confess I have not had time myself to look into the bids, but I have submitted them to the officers of my department, this one and the one fathered by my hon. friend from Brome (Mr. McMaster) and they have reported to me that no public interest was being adversely affected by them.


William Findlay Maclean: Th,at is the
very information I wanted. I am willing to take the minister's statement in that respect.
Private Bills


Mr. HANSON:: As I understand it, the
enacting clauses of both these bills that have been under discussion have been entirely stricken out in the Private Bills committee and new enacting clauses inserted in lieu thereof. We have not these amendments before us, and with all due respect to the chairman he is not the best reader in the world, and I must confess that what he read conveyed very little if anything to me. It seems to me these bills ought first to be reprinted if we are to know anything about what is being done. I do not think I could give an intelligent explanation of a single sentence the chairman read; perhaps that is my fault.
Mr.. MeGIVERIN: There may be a good deal in what my hon. friend says about having the bills reprinted. The point in connection with both these bills is that originally the promoters asked the committee to decide that the patent should be reinstated. But what the committee did was this:	In both these
cases there had been a failure to pay the money within the time limit. The money is paid in three different instalments covering eighteen years, one in six years, the second in the next six years, and the third instalment in the last six years. The people who appeared before my committee stated that they had overlooked this, and as well the provision that they could apply to the Commissioner of Patents, and what the committee did was to amend the bills and give these people power to appear before the Commissioner of Patents and to state their case, and he sitting as a judge, would decide whether any other rights were being interfered with. The commissioner was there himself and there was no objection from the department or the commissioner to that course. There was another bill at the same sitting of the committee which asked for an extension of time over and beyond the eighteen years, which the committee, in its vvisdom and on the advice of the commissioner, decided should not be granted. But there is no objection on the part of the department or on the part of the commissioner to this bill as it now stands. The committee merely pass it back to the commissioner to take evidence and decide whether the parties have made out their case.


Richard Burpee Hanson: With the explanation of
my hon. friend it might very well go through, since the Commissioner of Patents has the final say as to what shall be done. I was not objecting to the bill or holding it up. I just wanted to understand what the situation was.

Bill reported, read the third time and passed.



WEST VIRGINIA PULP AND PAPER COMPANY

[Stage Direction]
The House resumed from March 20, consideration in committee of Bill No. 13, respecting a patent of West Virginia Pulp and Paper Company

Mr. Jacobs-Mr. Gordon in the chair.
On section 1-Extension of time for payment of fees.
Mr. RYCKMAN:: What is the amendment?


George Newcombe Gordon: This is a bill respecting a patent of the West Virginia Pulp and Paper Company, amended in the same way as the former bill. It was referred to the Patent Commissioner to decide whether or not they are entitled to a reinstatement of the patent.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.



PATENT ACT-WALTER W. WILLIAMS

[Stage Direction]
Mr. ANDREW McMASTER (Brome) moved the second reading of Bill No. 26, respecting a patent of Walter W. Williams.
Henry Herbert Stevens: I do not know whether
I am entitled to speak again on this bill, because this is the second reading, and I spoke the other night. I asked the Minister of Justice if he would look into the matter.


Ernest Lapointe: I have had the officers of the Department of Justice look into the bill and they report that perhaps this bill would not be necessary because they think the patent is still in existence, and yet on the other hand they do not see that any public interest is adversely affected by the bill.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The point I raised when I objected the other day was this: apparently the Patent Commissioner has granted a patent and declares that it is all in order and he is satisfied under the general statute. The petitioners for this bill are asking parliament to pass a special act which rather overrides the statute and the decision of the Patent Commissioner, and says that, no matter what he may say, parliament is saying in a private bill that the patent is valid. Is it not a bad precedent to establish, and particularly in view of the last clause and the observations I made the other day?


Ernest Lapointe: My hon. friend understands that if the patent is still valid there will be no harm in passing a bill that really

Canteen Funds
says so. As far as the last clause is concerned, it would be a matter for the Private Bills committee to deal with. I do not see why, on the principle of the bill the second reading should be opposed.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I object to the principle
of passing a special bill where it affects the general statute.
Motion agreed to and bill read the second time.



CANTEEN FUNDS

[Stage Direction]
The House resumed in committee consideration of a proposed resolution with regard to the distribution of canteen funds.-Mr. Beland -Mr. Gordon in the chair.
William Findlay Maclean: Has the minister taken any steps to obtain the opinion of the Great War Veterans on this proposition?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I explained before six
o'clock that the opinion of the ex-service men had been obtained by the royal commission during their peregrinations through the country, and the resolution and bill are the result of the recommendations of that committee. As a matter of fact they are an exact reproduction of the recommendation.


William Findlay Maclean: I grant all that,
but the hon. member for East York (Mr. Harris) read a telegram stating that the veterans in many of their headquarters did object to this legislation. Has the minister heard any objections to this legislation from the war veterans?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have received also a
number of despatches asking me not to allot one hundred thousand dollars to one particular organization. In some cases the G.W.V.A. were mentioned as not being agreeable to it. In some other matters the Dominion Veterans' Alliance was mentioned, but ,a delegation met some members of the government a few days ago and they submitted to members of the government that they were in favour of the resolution as introduced in this House this year and also of that of last year. The delegation was quite representative.


Robert James Manion: Of what organizations?


Henri Sévérin Béland: The Great War Veterans'
Association, the Tubercular Veterans' Association.


Robert James Manion: The Grand Army of
United Veterans and the Amputation Association?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I do not know that the
Grand Army of United Veterans were represented, but I received a letter from their secretary stating that they endorsed the resolution as introduced.


John Arthur Clark: Were representatives of the
Army and Navy Veterans there?


Henri Sévérin Béland: They were not, but I had a long interview with their president, Mr. Brown, if 1 mistake not, when he explained to me that the desire of veterans' organizations in general should be secured before any appointment of the central board of trustees was made, and I agreed to that. It is my intention to consult the different organizations, and if they agree upon one association such as the Dominion Veterans' Alliance, to consult the Dominion Veterans' Alliance as to who would be an acceptable candidate for a member of the central board of trustees. This afternoon before six o'clock the hon. member for East York (Mr. Harris) read a despatch from Mr. Shields. I have before me the name of Mr. Shields as being one of the representatives on this delegation which endorsed the legislation. Whether it is the same Mr. Shields or not, I cannot say. Generally speaking, I would say that the legislation is acceptable to the returned mien.


Robert James Manion: Apart from individual
associations, has the minister received many telegrams from large organizations protesting against this $100,000 distribution that he speaks of, or are the protests just from local centres? Has he received any wide-spread protests?


Henri Sévérin Béland: No wide-spread protests.


Robert James Manion: Could the minister give
us a rough idea of the different organizations from -which he has received protests, so that we may know? I have received a few, not many.


Henri Sévérin Béland: So far as I know, there
was no protest against this legislation being introduced for the distribution. The protest was against the apportionment of a sum of money to one particular association.


Robert James Manion: Exactly, but how widespread was the protest?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I think it was mainly confined to Toronto and Ontario, not very much outside of that. If my hon. friend insists, I may give him the names of the members of the delegation.


Robert James Manion: No. I saw the names
and I saw some of the members of the delegation which waited upon the minister. They
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laid the memorandum before me and other hon. members. They were agreeable, but they comprise only the members of the Great War Veterans' Association and the Tubercular Veterans' Association. No others signed the memorandum, and I was curious to know if there was any wide-spread opposition outside of that expressed in telegrams from local organizations. If the minister has a list of them, I would be glad if he would tel us what he has in the way of protests.


Henri Sévérin Béland: There is no such protest
as that to which the hon. member refers. The Grand Army of United Veterans, I think, ha3 also wired me, but I presume that they were unaware of the exact content of the resolution or the manner in which this apportionment of $100,000 was going to be made, because within the last week I received a letter -I have not the letter with me, but I can produce it-from the Grand Army of United Veterans endorsing this legislation. As regards the Army and Navy Veterans, I had a conversation with their president, Mr. Brown.


Robert James Manion: The Amputation Association?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have not heard either way from them. I do not think they would have any objection to it.


Mr. CHURCH:: Coming as I do from a soldier city, I have quite a number of returned soldiers in my constituency including those at the Christie street hospital and a great deal of objection is expressed to the distribution of this fund as proposed in the resolution now before the committee. I sympathize with the minister. He has a most difficult task to perform in administering the distribution of the canteen fund. There are many ways in which this can be divided, and it may be almost impossible to please everybody. I understand that one has to be reasonable in the matter; in fact, there is only one other fund that one must be more careful about, and that is the campaign fund, if there be such a thing. I have received many protests from soldier organizations in Toronto, and I will read one from the Toronto and York County District Command of the Great War Veterans' Association. I have known Mr. Bray, the president, for many years, and I have found him a very reasonable and sensible soldier who would not want to give anyone any trouble. The record he has is that he has co-operated with the civic authorities to the best of his ability. He objects to this proposition and he has reasonable grounds for doing so. The sol-

diers of Toronto do not want to give the government any trouble and they want to help the minister and the department. They know the minister has been zealous in his work and that he is not responsible for mistakes that have been made in the past. The Toronto and York County District Command embraces all the district of Toronto and York and they are very much opposed to this division. I have a number of telegrams, but I will read only this one:
Legislation in connection with canteen funds coining before the House to-day (Thursday) provide for the setting aside of one hundred thousand dollars from the canteen funds for the purpose of setting up veteran service bureau in Ottawa under the Dominion Veterans' Alliance. Toronto and York County District Command, Great War Veterans' Association, absolutely opposed to setting aside any moneys from the canteen fund which belongs to all ex-soldiers to the Veterans' Alliance. Veterans' Alliance is only paper organization and does not represent organized ex-soldiers. Toronto and district and the Ontario provincial command withdrew from Veterans' Alliance eight months ago. Suggest you make this known in the House when legislation is brought forward particularly the fact that we are opposed to setting aside of any moneys from the canteen fund to the Veterans' Alliance.
I know President Bray and the officers of this organization, and I am aware how they worked with the civic authorities during last winter when there was a great deal of distress among the returned men in Toronto. These men gave a great deal of service not only to the soldiers, but to the citizens at large that were in distress, and also to ex-soldiers from the Old Country who were in difficulties. As I say this telegram is from them.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Who sent this last despatch which the hon. member has read?


Thomas Langton Church: It is signed by Harry
Bray, president, and Alexander Shields, secretary.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I see it is dated February 25. Later than this date, both gentlemen appeared before me and endorsed this legislation.


Thomas Langton Church: If the minister will come up to Toronto he will still find a lot of opposition-I was at a meeting of soldiers and they were all opposed to this legislation. The city of Toronto found it necessary to maintain a bureau of its own owing to the fact that the soldiers had found it impossible to obtain any relief from the department at Ottawa. They went to the city hall and applied for assistance and the city, at the expense of the tax-payers at large, was obliged to maintain a bureau of its own. There is such a vast amount of red tape in connection with the pension board that when the returned men, of the city of

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Toronto at any rate-and I am able to speak particularly of them-endeavoured to secure some relief they encountered all sorts of obstacles in the shape of one technicality after another. There is also in Toronto the Ontario Soldiers' Aid Commission. It costs a lot of money, and I know for a fact that there are agencies of this commission in Hamilton, London and other places.
Now, I do not say that the minister i3 altogether to blame; as I observed in my opening remarks, I am quite aware that he has a difficult fund to handle, and even though he might devise ten or fifteen different ways of administering it, it is possible that there would still be dissatisfaction. The fact remains nevertheless that a considerable number of men in the city of Toronto are out of work and in a critical condition and something must be done to assist them. It was said the other night by Mr. Shields of the G.W.V.A., that 60 per cent of the men out of work in Toronto were returned1 men, and a large percentage of them do not come under the pension law as it is to-day. I recognize, of course, as everybody does, that this government, in common with its predecessors, has done a great deal for the returned men. There is no doubt about that. And I know also that there is nothing partisan at all about this question, for all parties are anxious to see the right thing done by the veterans. I do not believe that anyone has the interests of the veterans more at heart than the minister himself (Mr. Beland). There is another organization located in the riding of East Toronto, and I know that the hon. member who represents that district (Mr. Ryckman) has taken a great deal of interest in the situation there. Indeed, I do not know of anyone who has been more diligent in the endeavour to further the interests of the men than that hon. member lias been. And this organization and others as well are all opposed to the assigning of this $100,000 to a central board for distribution. I have here a telegram from Riverdale branch of the Great War Veterans' Association, to the following effect:
T. L. Church, M.P.,
Parliament Building,
Ottawa, Ontario.
Please strenuously oppose grant of $100,000 from veterans' canteen funds to Veterans' Alliance. Thanks.
And the hon. member for East York (Mr. Harris) read a number of telegrams this afternoon from various units on the same question.
I criticize the assigning of this $190,000 to the board on this ground, that the government is under no necessity so far as I can see of entrusting the fund to such a body. That fund in my opinion should be administered 96



REVISED

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without cost to the soldiers. Surely in view of the fact that we have a department to look after the re-establishment of soldiers some means could have been devised of administering this fund without cost to the men. I do not go so far as to say that there has been any diversion of the fund, but I do strongly maintain that the government could have discovered some way of administering it without cost to the general body of returned men. I believe that if the minister had asked the House to vote $20,000 in his estimates for this purpose that vote would have carried; for if there is one fund more than another that should be administered free of cost to the returned men it is this one. I know of course that the minister is trying to effect economies, but it seems to me that in this particular department great care should be taken to see that whatever saving is made shall not be at the expense of the returned men.
I criticize the proposal on another ground: in handing over the $100,000 to this board the government is simply duplicating the work that is being carried on. I know of my own experience that such duplication does exist. For example, I know of a soldier who made application to five or six different persons for relief; he went first to the local district, and was referred to some other authority, and from that body he went to another, and so on. So that there is no question to my mind at least as to the existence of an expensive duplication; and when this board is charged with administering the fund this evil will only be aggravated.
As to handing over $50,000 to the American Red Cross, I do not know that we are going to do very much good. There are certainly a number of our returned men out of work in the United States, but my suggestion to the government would be to provide some general scheme of repatriation which would enable these men to come back to Canada. There are hundreds of them out of work in Detroit and other American cities and they are not likely to get work inasmuch as, before the American authorities will allow them to take any job, they must swear allegiance to the government of the United States. And returned Canadian soldiers after fighting for their king and flag will do no such thing. I would point out to the minister that after the Civil War in the United States the men of the Grand Army of the Republic did not have to leave that country to find employment, nor did they have to apply to any British organization such as the Red Cross, which did not then exist, for relief. They

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did not have to go the government of a foreign country to look for help. I have a number of letters from returned Canadian soldiers telling of distress in the United States and many of them are unable to get work owing to the fact that they will not take the oath to a foreign flag. In my opinion this $50,000 should be placed under the control of the minister himself; I believe in responsible ministers discharging such duties as properly appertain to their office. It seems to me that it is unwise to hand over $100,060 to this province, $75,000 to another province, and so on, on the basis of the number of returned men resident in these places respectively. I think it would be far better for the minister himself to control the administration of the money under section (4) of the resolution; as the resolution stands the government simply divests itself of all control and leaves the matter subject to conflicting regulations in the various provinces. But where does the returned man come in on this thing? There should have been a vote on the proposition by provinces according to the military districts. What is the general officer in command of the district for? He knows the number of pensioners that are in his district and he ought to be able to give some idea to the minister as to how these moneys might be distributed under this section. We have a Department of National Defence, we have a Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment, and we have local district commands with headquarters; and as I say, the general officer commanding the district knows just who his men are. On the whole, therefore, it would have been better to leave the matter to the minister. I am not here to criticize the minister, because my wish is to co-operate with him in every way possible. But one cannot help referring to these things. Again, what about the Amputation Association? I do not see any reference in this resolution to that large association. And what about the blind1 soldiers? And then there is the question of unemployment, which is a very serious matter among the returned men. I think that a great many of the soldiers, in the city from which I come at any rate, would rather see the recommendations of the Ralston report carried out, one of which provides for scholarships to promising children of ex-service men. I know of one case in which the father was killed, and the mother having died, the orphans were left with an aunt. This lady is trying her best to send two of them to high school and then to university, but her application for a pension for these children of 
sixteen and seventeen was denied. No doubt if the soldier-father had returned he would have given his children the best possible education within his power, and I think this is an excellent recommendation by the Ralston commission. Indeed, if the minister bad administered the fund along the lines of the Ralston report I think he would have followed' a very sensible course, because the commission took the views of soldiers all over the country and the recommendations contained in their report are doubtless founded on a consideration of those views. Coming from a city where there are large numbers of soldiers in distress, I sympathize with the minister in his endeavours to do all he can for the returned men, but I say to him now that the distribution of this fund as proposed is going to cause a lot of dissatisfaction among those interested. From my knowledge of the distress among many returned men in Toronto and elsewhere I believe one of the best uses to which this fund could be put would be to relieve that distress by way of finding the men employment or granting them financial assistance.
Henri Sévérin Béland: 
Arthur Edward Ross: Is there a reciprocal arrangement on the part of the United States?


Mr. BEL  AND@: No.


Arthur Edward Ross: Why not?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I do not know that in the United States they have any canteen fund to distribute. Perhaps my hon. friend knows.


Arthur Edward Ross: If they have not
a canteen fund they should have one.


Henri Sévérin Béland: If they have such a fund
I think they should alllot to the Canadian Red Cross a certain amount for the benefit of American returned men living in Canada. Now, my hon. friend from North Toronto suggested to me that the opinion of the returned men throughout Canada should be secured as to the proper distribution of the canteen fund. We all agree on that. The former government, led by my right hon. friend who now leads the opposition (Mr. Meighen), passed an order in council on November 3, 1921, creating a committee which was known as the canteen fund disposal committee. The order in council recites that the opinion of all returned men in Canada should be obtained as to the proper disposal of the canteen fund. This committee issued a circular or ballot containing a number of questions, and through the post offices, the soldiers' hospitals and other agencies, over 500,000 of these were distributed among the returned men. The number of ballots received expressing an opinion as to the disposal of the fund was only
22.000	out of a possible total of 450,000 soldiers in Canada, therefore it was decided that owing to the relatively small number of opinions expressed the government would not be justified in taking any action. This was shortly after the present government came into office; I think it was in February, 1922. It was represented to me by the men who composed this committee, appointed by order in council under the former government, that in view of the fact that no one opinion had more than
5.000	supporters it would be inadvisable to proceed on that basis. The whole question was subsequently placed before the royal commission, the members of which would find it a relatively easy matter to secure the opinions of the men all over the country. They did that; they have made their report, and they
Canteen Funds

have recommended the distribution of the fund as proposed last year and again this year. The hon. member (Mr. Church), who is a personal friend of mine, says he is willing to leave the matter with me; that he would rather have the distribution of the funds placed in the hands of the minister. I thank him for his good intentions, but even if the whole House were willing to leave it to me I should refuse to accept the task, because I understand it is a most difficult one. The method that has been adopted is one that will give the greatest satisfaction to the greatest number, though I admit there will still be dissatisfaction.
So far as the central board of trustees is concerned, I repeat that since his name has been brought into the discussion this afternoon I am disposed to ask Sir Arthur Currie to be head of this board of trustees. I am willing also to take the suggestion of the soldiers' organizations, omitting none^ as to a second member of the board. With regard to the third member I do not know to whom I should have recourse, but I think that could be left to the minister or to the government. On that point I may say that I have not heard a single word of complaint with regard to the personnel of the royal commission which I appointed. They were three returned men who commanded the respect and confidence of every soldier in Canada, and in this instance my only desire would be to act in the best interests of the returned men. I am also disposed to ask the board to obtain the opinion of the returned men as to who should be in charge of this office for which provision is being made. It is not for me to say it will be the Great War Veterans' Association, the Army and Navy Veterans, The Grand Army of United Veterans, The Dominion Veterans' Alliance, or the Tubercular Veterans Association. That is not for me to say, and I do not intend to say it. All I 9 p.m. want to do is to request this board to refund to the disablement fund the 815,000 which has been advanced from that fund for the maintenance of the bureau. This bureau has been carried on by The Great War Veterans' Association-for some time as the Great War Veterans' Association, some time as the Dominion Veterans Alliance. I am not conversant with all the details of the functionings of these two associations. It is claimed' that the Dominion Veterans' Alliance represents all the associations; some say it does not. I do know that Mr. MacNeil has from the day I came back from the Old Country been in charge of the soldiers' interests before every par-

liamentary committee, has had to do with the preparation of legislation and has generally represented them in all matters affecting their welfare. I think everybody will agree that he has discharged those duties to the satisfaction of all concerned. But if he is not the man it will be for the central board of trustees, not for me or the members of the government to decide.
I say in all sincerity that a board of trustees consisting of three members will be appointed if the bill to be based on this resolution becomes law. Deducting then, the $15,000 which they will be requested to refund to the disablement fund, they may administer the balance of that money, $85,000, as they deem best. We have spent a good many hours upon this resolution and I hardly think the objections urged have been such as to warrant so lengthy a discussion. I am pleased, nevertheless that the discussion has taken place. I suggest that the committee now adopt the resolution in order that we may advance the legislation one step. When the bill is under consideration I shall have a few amendments to propose-I shall not say to correct some defects, but rather to make some changes based upon suggestions offered by hon. gentlemen opposite.


Murray MacLaren: Section 1 of the resolution refers to the payment of outstanding accounts. I understand that this money is in the hands of the Receiver General and I can hardly understand that there could; be any outstanding expenses in connection with it. Will the minister explain the nature of these outstanding accounts?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Last year when the resolution was before the House I remember giving an explanation on this point. I have not the reference before me at the moment, but in short it means that some accounts are outstanding against the fund for certain regimental units which have been disbanded. This sum is set aside at the request of the Minister of National Defence in order to provide for any outstanding accounts that might be presented against the fund. My hon. friend will find that the bill provides that if after four years all claims that have been presented have been paid, if there is a balance left, that balance shall fall into the general fund which is to be allotted to the different provinces. We have nothing to do with that.


Henry Herbert Stevens: But should not that have been ascertained during the last year? What my hon. friend speaks of now is the condition

Canteen Funds
that obtained a year ago in expectation of the bill passing. The bill did not pass. A year now has elapsed, and surely any outstanding accounts could have been ascertained in the period of a year.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I would not say definitely, but I am informed that small accounts have been paid even during the past twelve months. It is a measure of prudence only, and it is not done at my request or suggestion.
Mr. RO'SS (Kingston):	I should like to
say a few words on this proposal before it passes the committee. There seems to have been a change in the situation lately, because there certainly was a great deal of opposition amongst the returned men in regard to this section of the government's proposal, but within the last week that opposition seems to have faded away. Certain men have oome here to Ottawa, and without any consultation with the members to whom telegrams were sent, consent has been given to this proposal, so we are informed by the minister. Now it would seem only natural that the service men who sent these telegrams should have conferred with the members to whom they were sent, if such approbation of the government's proposal has been obtained as the minister now suggests.
To what is the opposition due in regard to this matter? When the termination of the war was in sight, or immediately after, it was determined that the welfare and the interests of the returned men. should not be left to a government department. One would naturally expect that the Militia department might have carried on that work, but it was proposed that a separate department should be created which would be composed of laymen, and would be, as it were, friendly towards the returned men. That organization was created, and became the immense organization we now know as the DjS.C.R., of which the minister is the head, and he should have at least something to say in regard to its administration. We all know how friendly and how genial he is. You have only to approach him vo get a promise that everything will be set right, but then he suddenly bucks up against one of these iron-clad officials of his, his back weakens, and the returned soldiers are forgotten. Consequently the very department that was supposed to have sympathy for the returned men has become, one might almost say, their deadly enemy. Every member of this House knows how little sympathy he gets when he approaches that department in regard to a returned man. They will do nothing but carry out the strict letter of the
law; sympathy they know little about. The result is that the returned man, instead of placing his whole case in their hands, has turned away from them, feeling that his only safety is outside of that department which should be his friend and sympathizer, and he leaves his case with an organization of this kind.
In the past Mr. MacNeil the secretary of the Great War Veterans' Association has fought this department through thick and thin till he was almost discouraged, but I would like the committee to remember that Mr. MacNeil did not do all the work. Outside of his work, there was the tubercular, amputation and the blind organizations, all with their own administration looking after the needs of their own men. I do not know whether they will be altogether satisfied to see the work taken out of their hands. The committee will readily understand that it requires some years of work to become acquainted with the technical problems coming up in the tubercular, amputation and blind cases, and I do not know that one general board can do that work. That work must be carried on. Whether or not there has been a secret understanding arrived at as to the redistribution of this fund, I do not know. But the fact remains that there was opposition, and I want to say that the proposal here is one that the government itself should take up.
I want to point out my opposition to this proposal. I may be alone in my views; I have not consulted with anyone else. My position is this. The returned man is the ward of the government and of this country, and we cannot get away from that responsibility. There is no use putting that responsibility on some other organization. The returned mam in general is the ward of this country and of the government, I care not what government is in power, and he should get all the sympathy he deserves. I do not know whether the intention of the department now is to shift the-responsibility on to some other body. We now have the Department of Soldiers Civil Re-establishment, the pension board, and the Federal appeal board, and now this other organization is to be started. If it is necessary for the returned men to have such an organization as this to advance their interests and present their case to the government, I think the government should pay for it. It looks to me as if the government has taken 8100,000, to wash its hands of the interests of the returned man and say: We are done. Because in the future they will' say that these cases have to come before this special board that is
Canteen Funds

to be appointed. I do not think this House should lose sight of the fact that the government and parliament and the country at large has to take care of the returned man. The returned men, the sick and disabled *are the wards of the government, and the government should not get away from that responsibility by having this board appointed. If it is necessary for the returned men to go outside the Department of Soldiers Civil-Reestablishment, the government should pay for it, or provide some easier way, grease the way a little bit for the returned men to get the ear of the D.S.C.R. To-day if you go to the minister about a pension or something else affecting the soldiers, he will tell you he cannot do anything, that the pension board is absolutely independent. If you go to the pension board, they will tell you that their reports come from the D.S.C.R. medical men, and that they cannot help themselves; they have to take the D.S.C.R. reports. The thing is so tied up and connected and intermingled [DOT]that the ordinary man cannot distinguish between them, and I do not know that they themselves know which of the medical men are pension men and which are D.SjC.R. men.
Now what are the matters to be taken up by this board? The report says:
There is a variety of instances in connection with such questions as government employment.
Well, this government is not going to have anything to do with unemployment, so that part of the report is washed away. The government is not going to be responsible in any way for unemployment.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I think that refers to the
.civil service.


Arthur Edward Ross: I do not see why,
because there is the provision made that the returned men must always get the preference in applying for a civil service position. Is not that a fact?


Henri Sévérin Béland: It is a fact, but still I
think that refers to the civil service.


Arthur Edward Ross: But still the government does not do it.


Thomas Langton Church: First preference at a pick and shovel job.


Henri Sévérin Béland: There may be a disabled
man who will look for some man to present his case before the Civil Service Commission. I think what my hon. friend has read refers to the Civil Service Commission.


Arthur Edward Ross: But the hon. minister is not sure.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I think so.


Arthur Edward Ross: The minister is
not sure as to whether they get their preference or not.


Henri Sévérin Béland: It refers to that.


Arthur Edward Ross: Thie government
is responsible and should look after them. As I say, the returned1 man is a ward of the government and should be looked after. We have the report in connection with that. This report says:
There are a variety of instances in connection wicn such questions as government employment, land settlement, training, housing, and rehabilitation activities generally, the consideration affecting which depend on the presentation of the individual case rather than on the terms of a general regulation. There are also parliamentary matters not only affecting pensions biu amendments to existing statutes.
And so on. It is most difficult for anyone to look after the interests of the blind and tubercular. I do not know whether the minister has had any information that these people will be looked after, or if there is any understanding between the three or four as-' sociations in regard to it.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I know that most of the
representatives of the organizations with whom I have come in contact favour this legislation. The moment they know that no particular organization is going t-o be favoured in the matter of employment in preference to another organization, they are in favour of the legislation. My idea of an employment bureau would be a place where the central board of trustees would consult all the associations; and more than one man is required for a bureau of that kind. I am satisfied that it takes at least five or six or seven men or employees to attend to such a bureau. My idea of the constitution of such a bureau would be that all the associations should have a representative on it, so that everybody would be represented.


Arthur Edward Ross: So far, so good. That seems to be the opposition the minister heard of from the men who approached him, but at the same time at the beginning, those who put up the opposition, were given to understand that there was no place from where the funds for a bureau could be obtained. They believed the bureau was absolutely necessary, because they believed the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment had fallen down on the job, and there was a want of sympathy. The minister had all the sympathy, but that is as far' as his department went. There was any amount of

Canteen Funds
sympathy with the minister, but he could not get any further. He was not responsible, and the returned men believed that a bureau was necessary, and there was no other money to be obtained for this bureau; therefore rather than see the bureau done away with and the possibility of it being destroyed they said, "Very good, we are willing to take that hundred thousand dollars"; but if there was sympathy in this House for the sentiment that the government should leave every cent of that money to the men who served overseas and who really put the money into the canteen fund, then being in sympathy with them, the government would say, "Very good, we will see that this bureau shall carry on; there is no sympathy with your case in the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment, and therefore we will see that there will be a bureau to carry on, and we will provide the very small amount necessary". When this hundred thousand dollars is disposed of -and it is not going to last very long, as fifteen thousand dollars has gone already- then what? Where will the returned men be then?


Thomas Langton Church: They will go to the labour bureau.


Arthur Edward Ross: I want the House to keep in mind the position of this matter. It looks to me as if the government were saying, "We will Start you off, what the end will be we do not care". After the hundred thousand dollars has been expended there will still be the returned men's case to be considered, unless there is a department more sympathetic than the department is at the present time. There will be the necessity for a bureau, and I think the proper thing now would be for the government to recognize that responsibility, sympathy having failed with the department, and say, "We will carry on the bureau, and meet the small amount of expenditure that would be required". When you can get three big men in this country to take upon themselves the responsibility of the work without any remuneration, then I think the government should be willing to pay for the office administration. That is my objection to this hundred thousand dollar scheme. In the first place, the government has no right to take it for a thing of this kind. The government should support this proposition, as sympathy has failed in the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re. establishment; and by voting the hundred thousand dollars you are making no provision for the carrying on of the bureau. That bureau will go on as long as there are
disabled men in the country and that will be for many many years to come.
Mr. MANIO'N: There are still a number of things, I imagine, about the resolution to be debated before we report it because the minister will remember the first day it came up we settled on the disablement fund, and this afternoon and evening we have discussed almost entirely the appointment of the trustees, but there was another matter I brought to the minister's attention upon which he has not made any remark. I will give him credit for his remarks about the trustees. He has certainly, I think, shown a willingness, which I sincerely hope he will live up to, to respond to the proposition made in good part by this side of the House to try to get the trustees appointed in such a manner that they will be above parties and that sort of thing, and will not make of themselves a political board. I was pleased to have him agree that Sir Arthur Currie might be chairman, because I think that is the wish of all those who have taken an interest in this fund. I think the suggestion of the hon. member for Burrard (Mr. Clark) in regard to the appointment of a second trustee is also a good one; that is to have the Dominion Veterans' Alliance appoint a second trustee, that alliance being made up of all the different associations in this country.


Mr. CARROLL:: The Dominion Alliance which has been referred to I understand is doing the work which this board will be doing when it is formed. It may be the desire that this work may be done by the same board. Why ask this Dominion Alliance to appoint a man to the board which will deal with these cases and look after the interests of returned men?


Robert James Manion: The Dominion Veterans' Alliance is made up, according to my understanding-and I think it is correct-not only of the Great War Veterans' Association, but of all the other war veterans' associations in the country. It is a sort of combination of the Great War Veterans' associations, the Grand Army of United Veterans and all the other associations. I think it would be well to have all the veterans of the country included in this alliance. Not only are the Great War Veterans of this country interested in the canteen fund but all the veterans in Canada are interested in it. I made it my business the other day to look into the figures of the numbers of men belonging to this association. So far as I could get the figures -and frankly I got them from some of the officers of the Great War Veterans' Associa-
Canteen Funds

tion, they showed that something like 215,000 or 220,000 belonged to all the different associations in the country, so that this left around
200,000	returned soldiers who do not belong to any association. The latter are just as much interested in the canteen fund as those who do belong to an association, as I am sure my hon. friend will agree. The figures as given to me the other da5r, a copy of which I now have in my hand, are as follows:
Army and Navy Veterans	 60,000
Grand Army of United Veterans	 600
Tubercular Veterans' Association	 5,000
Amputation Veterans	 3,000
Canadian Legion	 600
Great War Veterans' Association	 150,000
Imperial Veterans	 4,0Q0
According to these figures, 100,000 have gone to the United States, but even they are interested in this canteen fund. The point I wish to make is that all the different soldiers, so far as we can reach them, should have something to say with regard to the appointment of these trustees. While we cannot cal! in the 100,000 soldiers who have gone to the United States to take part in the voting, we can call in the organized veterans' associations of this country, and the proposal of the hon. member for Burrard (Mr. Clark) is that after Sir Arthur Currie, if he accepts, is appointed, the second1 trustee be appointed by the Dominion Veterans' Association, which includes the different associations of veterans in Canada.


Joseph Henry Harris: I have received this telegram :
Government should retain canteen funds and interest intact. Veterans' Alliance not now recognized by Ontario Great War Veterans' Association. And in fact is to-day only a paper organization with official seeking own aggrandizement and personal gain. Kindly convey this information to your Toronto colleagues.
Perhaps the hon. member can tell us who they are.


Robert James Manion: I am glad my hon. friend is trying to help me out so well. I am not married to the idea of the Dominion Veterans' Alliance. The only reason I suggested it was because until recently it was supposed to be an organization made up of a combination of the officers of all the different associations. The telegram which my hon. friend has may be correct, and the Dominion Veterans' Alliance may not be as represented. If it is not and if there be objection to it, the Great War Veterans' Association and these other associations which I have named should be asked to have their officers get together and pick a man. I do not know the Dominion Veterans' Alliance, and I am speaking subject to correction. After the second trustee has been appointed, the suggestion of the hon.

member for Burrard is that the third trustee is to be appointed by the other two. I was pleased to have the minister appear to agree at least with the idea if it can be worked out, and I do not see any reason why it should not be worked out.
The hon. member for Cape Breton South and Richmond (Mr. Carroll) asked why some Other organizations should be requested to assist in appointing a trustee who would be merely picking the present organized adjustment bureau, which is handled altogether by the Great War Veterans' Association. I do not intend to suggest that any strings be tied to the trustees in regard to an appointment. The appointment of the adjustment bureau should be left entirely in the hands of these trustees. I do not mean to suggest that we should insert in the bill a clause stating that the trustees must appoint So-and-so and So-and-so to handle the adjustment bureau. The matter would be entirely in their hands, and after the three trustees met and discussed the matter, if they decided to use the adjustment bureau that is in existence to-day, I have no quarrel with them, and I do not mean to quarrel with the adjustment bureau at all. I hope that whatever appointments are made, those men will look at this as a position of honour and of trust, and that they will carry out their duties without pay, in the same manner that, I think, most of us who are discussing this question are attempting to carry out ours, in other words, entirely for the benefit of the returned soldiers. I admit the minister has been exceedingly reasonable in regard to the appointment of the trustees. Of course the proposition was a fair one, and I do not see how he could have dealt with it otherwise.
Another question that comes up, one which I brought up earlier in the day, is that of the use of $100,000 from the canteen fund in order to carry on this bureau for the next three or four years. Before I touch on that, I must confess I rather think the question was brought up already to-night, but I was going over some correspondence dealing with this matter and I missed the explanation. Will the minister explain again what the $20,000 mentioned in clause 1 is to be used for.


Henri Sévérin Béland: This amount is set aside
at the request of the Department of National Defence to meet some accounts that might be presented to the Receiver General, accounts' which would be chargeable against the fund.


Robert James Manion: From whom?


Henri Sévérin Béland: From some of the units that have been disbanded. I understand. I

Canteen Funds
am not in a position to give details about that. This is what I said last year in reply to a question in this connection:
The National Defence department have submitted occasionally to the Finance department small accounts for payment. What these accounts are exactly I am not in a position to say, but I might suggest thst they are accounts from trustees of former regimental units. Be that as it may, these accounts must be passed upon by the National Defence department and approved by the Finance department. As late as 1923 the Finance department had paid out on these accounts an amount of $2,000. The commission recommend-
That is the royal commission.
-that $20,000 be retained for this purpose, and I presume that if any balance should be left of this amount of $20,000 after a certain delay has elapsed, it would ultimately be distributed amongst the provinces on the pro rata scale mentioned.
There is in the bill, not in the resolution, this provision:
The sum of $20,000 shall be held by the Receiver General for Canada for the payment of any outstanding accounts or claims in respect of the units, the funds of which are included in the canteen funds, provided that should any portion of this amount remain unexpended on the 1st day of July 1929, such unexpended portion shall be disposed of as set forth in paragraph (e) of this section.
That is, distributed amongst the different provinces.


Mr. BLACK (Yukon):: I was glad when
this matter was up a few days ago to hear the pronouncement from the minister that he had altered his views in regard to the course that should be pursued in dealing with the share of the canteen fund to which the returned soldiers now in Yukon are entitled. The minister has said repeatedly during this discussion, not only to-day but on the former occasion, that the bill of last year passed the House and committee without protest. Its terms, as he put it, were quite satisfactory to all concerned. Perhaps I personally did not protest strongly enough, but I felt quite sure that I had protested. I should not like it to go out to my friends among the returned soldiers, not only in Yukon but elsewhere, that I had sat in my place and let the bill, as it was last session, go by without protest. Nor would I let the resolution as we have it now pass without voicing my objection to it. I find on consulting Hansard that my remarks were plain enough. On July 14 I asked:
Mr. Black (Yukon): Why is it the allotment for British Columbia and the Yukon are joined? This allotment is not made in accordance with military districts and the percentage returnable to the Yukon can be ascertained as accurately as the percentage returnable for any province. It will be a smaller amount, but why should it be tied up with British Columbia?
Mr. Beland:	It is the recommendation of the royal
commission.
Mr. Black (Yukon):	I protest against that. I
suggest that the exact percentage due to the Yukon be ascertained and allotted to the Yukon to be distributed by a local committee there, altogether separato and apart from British Columbia. Is it possible to do that? I submit there is no more reason why Yukon should be attached to British Columbia for this purpose than that Yukon should be attached to Prince Edward Island.
That is a plain protest but it was entirely disregarded, and I find I protested again on July 16, a few days later. Since then I have taken occasion to correspond with Colonel J. L. Ralston, the chairman of the Ralston commission, and I have discovered in that correspondence the basis on which these percentages of allotment are calculated. I endeavoured to get the information from ;he minister last session but I must confess I could not do it. Having got it from Colonel Ralston, however, I find it is quite simple to make the Yukon calculation. Colonel Ralston in a letter to me on November 22 last says
The total percentage fixed by our report for distribution to British Columbia and the Yukon Territory is 10.286, and dividing this percentage in the same ratio as the enlistments for British Columbia bear to those for the Yukon (that is to say as 51,430 is to 2,327) gives for British Columbia 9.841 per cent and for the Yukon .445 per cent.
I notice that the percentages in the resolution now before the House differ from those as quoted in the bill last year, and probably there is some good reason for that. But they do differ. Apparently the percentages given in the bill and in the Ralston report were not correct, otherwise they would not be changed this year; and taking it on this y ear's percentage the calculation for Yukon will be somewhat different. The percentage for British Columbia and Yukon this year, instead of 10.286 per cent is now 11.213 per cent, and calculated on that basis the Yukon percentage should be .503, or about $11,000 in money. A'fter getting the information from Colonel Ralston I corresponded with the officials of the Dawson branch of the Great War Veterans' Association, submitting the whole question to them for suggestions. I have here a letter from the secretary-treasurer of that institution to the following effect:
Dear Sir,-The Dawson Branch G.W.V.A. have instructed me to thank you for communications regarding the canteen fund.
The enclosed copies of a resolution passed at a largely attended meeting of the branch along with a number of other returned men expresses the unanimous and emphatic opinion of all present.
This matter has further been discussed with a number of prominent citizens including Mr. Percy Reid, Acting Gold Commissioner, and all seem to hold the same opinion as we do.
Canteen Funds

The resolution of the Great War Veterans' Association reads:
Resolved, that notwithstanding the disadvantage to which the Yukon is put through having no percentage of discharges or pensions taken into consideration in arriving at the sum aJlotable to the Territory from the canteen fund, this meeting nevertheless, with a view to arriving at a practical and expeditious solution of the difficulty, acquiesce in the figure of .445 per cent of the whole quoted by Mt. Ralston, Chairman of the Royal Commission on Pensions and Reestablishment, in his letters to Captain George Black, federal member of parliament for the Yukon, such percentage being based on enlistments only and amounting at present to $10,242, as being reasonably satisfactory under the circumstances.
Be it further resolved, that, due to the isolated position of the Yukon Territory, the lack of adequate communication during the greater part of the year, and the absolute impossibility of a committee situate 2,000 miles from here being able to handle the local situation sympathetically or intelligently, this meeting is of the opinion that it is in the best interests of Yukon residents entitled to receive benefits under the canteen fund that the Yukon's pro rata share of .445 per cent of the whole be handled by a local committee and that the Gold Commissioner and Captain George Black, federal member of parliament, be requested to give every assistance with that object in view.
That is signed by the president and the secretary. On February 24 this year I wrote to the minister enclosing a copy of that resolution. I will not take the time of the House reading my letter but I should like to put it on Hansard in order to make clear my position in regard to the matter. The letter was dated Ottawa, February 24, addressed to the Minister of Soldiers' Civil Reestablishment.
[The letter from Mr. Black (to the minister reads:
Hon. H. S. Beland,
Minister of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment,
Ottawa.
Dear Sir:-
re Canteen Fund
Since the last session of parliament I have given the matter of the most advantageous way of handling Yukon's share of the above fund careful consideration, and have corresponded concerning the same with the G.W.V.A., of Yukon, and with Mr. J. L. Ralston, chairman of the Royal Commission on Pensions and Re-establishment, on whose recommendations the bill of last session, I understand, was drafted.
On the basis of calculation used in arriving at the sums to be allotted to the various provinces Yukon would be entitled to .445 of the whole, and amounting to at present $10,242 such percentage being based on nnlistments only and not including pensions and discharges.
I enclose, herewith, an original copy of resolution passed at a representative meeting of the G.W.V.A. and other returned soldiers held at Dawson, January 14, 1925, in which it is declared that it would be more satisfactory to have the Yukon's share of the fund handled by a local committee than to have the same combined with that of British Columbia. I entirely agree with this resolution, and would respectfully urge that in the event of a bill to dispose of this canteen fund being introduced at this session of the House, the same shall provide for the handling of Yukon's share of the fund by a local committee

to be appointed by the government. I would suggest as members of this committee, the Gold Commissioner of Yukon, who is the government's chief representative in that territory, and the president and secretary of. the G.W.V.A. in Yukon. These officers have always been, and I believe will continue to be, representative citizens. At present the president of th? G.W.V.A., Mr. D. C. Thomson, M.C., is manager of the Canadian Bank of Commerce at Dawson, and Mr. C. S. McKim, secretary, is a government official.
I hope to have Mr. Ralston's co-operation in this recommendation.]
I was disappointed at receiving on February 27 the following letter in reply:
Dear Captain Black,-I beg to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 24th instant with reference to the distribution of the Yukon's share of tfie canteen funds.
The change which is suggested would entail the making-up of a new scale for the whole country, and moreover the other provinces might submit that discrimination had been shown against them inasmuch as a different basis for computing the Yukon's share would have to be used.
It is difficult to see how this can be justified.
As I stated at the outset, I am glad' to find that the minister has modified that opinion and told the House that if the committee favours it he will be willing to allow an alteration in the bill to provide that the Yukon share may be placed in the hands of a local committee. I would therefore suggest for the consideration of the minister the following amendment:
That the resolution be amended by adding after the word " provincial " in the fourth paragraph the words " and territorial " and by striking out the word " nine " and substituting the word '" ten " in paragraph (4) and that the British Columbia proportion be 10.710 and the Yukon ipro-portion .503 instead of the proportions now in the resolution stated; and that a new paragraph be added as-
(5) (a) The Yukon allotment to be paid to a board of trustees consisting of the Gold Commissioner of Yukon and the president and secretary of the Dawson branch of Great War Veterans' Association, withoi-.t remuneration, empowered to receive and hold the territorial allotment and to ascertain the wishes of those interested and residing in the territory concerning the disposition of such allotment, and to determine the object to which the allotment should be devoted, and to administer the same for such object or to provide for such administration by others. The expenses in conneetion with the trust to be a charge on the allotment.
I am quite sure the charges on the allotment will not amount to anything. The figures are based on the information I received from Colonel Ralston, the chairman of the Ralston commission, giving the method of calculating these percentages and amending them in accordance with the figures now given in the resolution, which as I pointed out before differ from the percentages given in the bill last year. The other clauses of the resolution-


Henri Sévérin Béland: Before my hon. friend
proceeds, may I ask how he arrives at his percentage of 5.503 for the Yukon?

Canteen Funds


George Black: Taking the percentage of enlistments only, without taking into account the percentage of discharges or of pensions.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Why not?


George Black: In leaving those
percentages out Yukon gets something the worst of it, but even at that the people interested are willing to do so in order to have their allotment separate. The percentages of discharges and pensions are left out because there were practically no discharges in Yukon and a very small percentage of pensions, so small as not to be worth taking into account. The other provinces get the advantages of the three branches of calculation; the Yukon is willing to take only one, the percentage of enlistments, and as the chairman of the Ralston commission takes the percentage at this basis, that is to say, as the enlistments of British Columbia, 51,430, are to those of Yukon, 2,327, so is this percentage'-


Henri Sévérin Béland: As far as enlistments are
concerned?


George Black: Yes.


Henri Sévérin Béland: And as far as discharges
are concerned how do you arrive at it?


George Black: I leave the discharges and pensions out of the calculation altogether.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Why?
' Mr. BLACK (Yukon):	Because I do not
think there were -any discharges in Yukon, and the percentage of pensions was so small it was not worth considering.


Mr BELAND:: Could we not take the
same proportion between the discharges in British Columbia and those in Yukon as between the enlistments in British Columbia and those in Yukon?


George Black: I think that would
be a fair basis of calculation, and I would be very willing indeed' to have it adopted. As to the other clauses of the resolution and of the bill of last year, they did not pass without protest, at any rate on my part. After the splendid work done by the returned soldiers through their organizations and agencies had been discussed in the House, I said:
If the work has been done so well in the past why create another agency now?
That was in reference to this proposed adjustment service and bureau.
Surely the efforts of returned soldiers on their own behalf, coupled with the work done by the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment, ought to be sufficient, but if an additional bureau is needed, I submit that the expense should not be met by withdrawing $100,000 from the canteen fund. That should be a government expense coming on the whole people. This $100,000 is not a gift to the returned soldiers in fact the whole of this $2,296,936 is the returned soldiers' own money now. It does not belong to the government or to the general public, it belongs to the returned men, who overseas ran a canteen and made a profit out of it, and now the money is their own.
I submit that neither the $100,000 or any other sum should be taken out for this purpose. The bureau, according to the minister's own words is not necessary because the soldiers' interests are being so well looked after by the government and by the soldiers themselves.
I quote that to show the minister was not altogether correct in saying the legislation passed without protest; and to-night we have heard pro-tests from many returned soldiers' organizations read by members of the House. With all due deference to the minister, I do not think he has been quite frank with the House or with the committee in this matter.


Henri Sévérin Béland: In what way may I ask?


George Black: As I say, with all due deference to the minister, I think at the outset he sought to make it appear that no payments had been made or were contemplated to be made from the canteen fund to the Dominion Veterans' Alliance. He was asked on February 26 and 27, and again on March 5, if an order in council allocating any part of this canteen fund to the Dominion Veterans' Alliance had been passed, and the answer was in the negative.


Henri Sévérin Béland: That was strictly true.


George Black: Oh, perhaps in the letter, but not by any means in the spirit. It was only when an hon. member produced a co-py of the order in council and read it that the minister admitted there was any order in council at all. No one can read that order in council without realizing from it that money to the extent of $15,000, perhaps $25,000, has already been expended in anticipation of this $100,000, 'and apparently the minister is going to see to it that the trustees, whoever they may be, undertake to return that $15,000 or $25,000, whichever it is, to the soldiers' disablement fund.


Henri Sévérin Béland: If they do not think the money has been properly expended for the maintenance of the bureau, they may refuse to reimburse1 the disablement fund, and the situation will be that the disablement fund will have improperly contributed to the maintenance of the bureau during a year and a half or two years.
Canteen Funds


George Black: I think the minister is going to know his trustees pretty well before they are appointed, and if they are not prepared to do as he thinks they should do they are not apt to be appointed. The order in council in fact had been issued many months before hon. members in this House directed this question to the minister. An order in council was issued and $25,000 of the disablement fund was used.


Henri Sévérin Béland: No, $15,000.


George Black: I submit it is fair to suppose from reading the order in council which finally came to light that these trustees are practically to be directed to take that amount out of the canteen fund and pay it over to the disablement fund. These are the words of the minister, in fact of the government, in the order in council:
-and he recommends that the trustees who may be appointed after the passage of the Canteen Funds Bill at the next session of parliament be requested to reimburse the disablement fund the amount of $15,000 out of any moneys transferred to such trustees undsr the authority of the said bill.
That, to say the least, is a pretty straight tip to those trustees before they are appointed as to what they are expected to do. I cannot satisfy myself from the wording of the order in council whether the amount advanced was $15,000 or $25,000. There are two amounts of $10,000 and one of $5,000 mentioned.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I said to my hon. friend it is $15,000, and I wish he would accept my word.


George Black: I did not understand that before. The minister's word is clearer than the order in council.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I admit that the wording is a little ambiguous.


George Black: I say, as I said
last session, that this adjustment service and bureau, such as is contemplated by the resolution, is unnecessary, and if it is not unnecessary it ought to be unnecessary. The Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment is after all an adjustment service and bureau. It is a soldiers' bureau, or it should be. If it is not, what is it? What was it designed for? It is not needed in the general government of this country. We had sufficient departments to carry on the government of Canada, perhaps a few too many, before the Department of Soldiers' Civil Reestablishment was ever thought of, and it was created simply because services of that sort were necessary for the returned soldiers. 
If the department is not an adjustment bureau, a soldiers' service bureau-well, what is the minister doing? What is the reason for his continuance in office if that is not what the department is for? And what is the large and expensive staff of the department being maintained for if it does not constitute a soldiers' bureau, if it is not for the purpose of attending to the business of returned soldiers? I submit that it is an admission of incompetence on the part of the 10 pun. department and of the head of the department to say that any go-between, any special agency is necessary as a medium of intercourse between his department and the returned soldiers. The soldiers should not require special counsel; the members of the minister's staff ought to be special counsel to every man who has to do business with them.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am afraid my hon. friend is sliding into politics.


George Black: Well, I do not
know that the members of the government have always been unwilling to bring politics into matters affecting the soldiers. Friends of his party did what they could in the constituencies during the by-elections to inflame the returned soldiers against the Conservative party in the account they gave to the public of how the pension bill of last session was handled. Right here let me call attention to a very refreshing sentence in this order in council. Let me quote the words:
Owing to the fact that this measure was introduced during the last few days of the parliamentary session, it failed to become law.
Now that is a plain statement of fact, and it differs very widely from the statement I heard made in the constituencies during the elections last fall as to why that bill failed to pass. Every effort was made, as I say, to prejudice the returned soldiers against the Conservative party because the pension bill of last session failed to pass-owing, the government's canvassers said, to the antagonism of the Conservative majority in the Senate. Though if we look at the history of the respective parties we will find that returned soldiers and soldiers before they returned fared quite as well at the hands of the Conservative party as they did at the hands of my hon. friends opposite. If we are going to talk politics in connection with this matter I am quite willing to do so.
We have had complaints, and we are getting them right along, from returned soldiers all over the country as to the policy of the pension board and the Department of Soldiers'

Canteen Funds
Civil Re-establishment. The policy of the pension, board and the policy of the department are .just exactly what the minister makes them; the pension board, like government officials in other departments, take their lead from the minister. If the policy of the pension board was not to the liking of the minister it would very soon be changed. I say that if such an adjustment sendee and bureau is needed, let the public pay for it. We heard a lot about the gratitude of the public to the returned soldiers when they were overseas, and I do not think the great majority of the civilian population, taxpayers of this country, would be at all averse to putting up $100,000 if that amount were needed to give the soldiers the benefit of special counsel here at the capital-because that is what the taking of this $100,000 means. On the other hand, if there must be such an "adjustment service and bureau," as it is expressed in the resolution, and at the expense of the canteen fund, I say, put that fund in the hands of independent trustees, not trustees who will take orders from the minister, no matter how fair or how proper those orders may be. The trustees should be absolutely free and untrammelled; they should not be handicapped in any way. As I have already pointed out, this order in council indicates all too plainly that they will get orders, if they do not get orders they will get directions. They are going to get advice as to what they are to do with $15,000 of this fund, to start with. That is not the sort of trustees we want. Let me say, with all respect to members of this House and officers of the permanent force or the Canadian corps, that in selecting these trustees the government might very well consider the advisability of including among them one or two who perhaps are not generals in the army. I heard to-day nothing but the names of generals suggested. I have every respect for these gentlemen, for their rank and their military records; but I do say that in civilian life to-day are to be found men who never wore a brass hat, who never obtained the rank of an officer, yet who have the entire respect of the community in which they live, have a wide circle of acquaintance, and would be quite fit and proper persons to be on that board of trustees.


Robert James Manion: May I ask my hon. friend one question as a matter of information? I did not hear more than one general mentioned, and that was Sir Arthur Currie. Were there
some others?


George Black: There were at least three others. I would rather not repeat their names; you will find it in Hansard to-morrow.
I say it would be better to leave the $100,000 in the hands of the minister and allow him and his government to take the responsibility for the administration of this fund than to shift the responsibility to trustees who are not absolutely independent.
If the minister is bound to use this $100,000, and I suppose he is, for the establishment of this bureau, then let him safeguard it by the terms of the bill so that it will not be sloughed off or frittered away. So word the bill that in the first place the fund will not be plundered of that S15,000. That $15,000 should never go out of the canteen fund to the disablement fund. We heard it said with some heat on the floor of this House by gentlemen opposite on the last occasion on which this resolution was discussed that it was entirely proper to use the disablement fund to the extent of $15,000 for the purpose for which it was used. If that is so, let it go at that, write it off. There is no reason why it should be paid back from this canteen fund; and that is one thing that should be safeguarded by the terms of the bill. I would provide for the investment of this $100,000 so that the bureau could be maintained indefinitely by the interest earned by that sum. I do not see any necessity for establishing any very elaborate bureau or agency service here at the capital. One smart agent ought to be quite enough; this $100,000 should earn $5,000 a year, and you could get a good enough man for $5,000. It follows as a matter of course that the great majority of cases could be handled without the intervention of this agency at all. Only a few contentious cases will come before the bureau. We have a corps of paid soldiers' advocates across the country from Halifax to Vancouver, paid by the month I understand; they might do a little for the soldiers in return for their salaries. I say it could only and should only be a very exceptional case that this bureau would have to handle, and an agent of ordinary intelligence, with the co-operation of the minister and his staff, should be quite sufficient to handle the business. Therefore I say that the bill should provide that the principal amount of $100,000 be invested and that the bureau be conducted on the interest earned thereon. I do not want to be misunderstood: I am entirely opposed to the use of this $100,000 for the purpose proposed. But if the minister must have his way and must put it through, put it through with those safeguards. Although attention has already been called to this feature of the resolution reserving the sum of $20,000 for the payment of any outstanding accounts, I cannot bring myself to believe that any such amount of
1508	COMMONS
Canteen Funds
outstanding accounts exists. This fund has been in the custody of the government now for some years. If there are any outstanding accounts, why have they not been paid? I think the government would be quite safe in cutting down this 320,000 to say $2,000, and I think that $2,000 would probably be more than they would ever use. It seems to me that an effort has been made to trim this canteen fund from start to finish, right down the line. I think the minister would be better advised to do everything possible to see that as much of the canteen fund remains intact as he possibly can. If he has decided to follow the recommendations of the Ralston commission, and I admit I have no alternative to suggest, and to allocate the fund to the different provinces and the Yukon territory, there to be handled by local committees, I say by all means swell the amount so to be distributed provincially. Then you will have the fund in the hands of the local people who are conversant with local needs, and the fund will then likely be administered much more in keeping with the wishes of the returned men than if it was being handled by a central board here in Ottawa. I trust the minister will see his way clear, as he intimated he would, to segregate the amount due to the Yukon territory, and also take into consideration the suggestions I have made as to the balance of the fund.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Just a word in reply to my hon. friend. I understand that he does not want to press this amendment on the resolution.


George Black: No. I am suggesting it for the consideration of the minister in draughting the bill.


George Newcombe Gordon: The hon. member for the Yukon (Mr. Black) has moved an amendment. I understand that he does not now wish to press it.


George Black: Except with the minister's approval.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I do not approve of the amendment as it is, but I have made some suggestions to my hon. friend to which he has agreed, and we can go into a conference a little later and see whether we can draft a clause which will be acceptable to him. So much for that part of my hon. friend's remarks.
Of course, when my hon. friend speaks he always finds a way to have his little political innings. He has had a little fling to-night at the department, at the minister in charge, and

at the government. I suppose that is all in order, but up to the present time we have very carefully avoided touching upon the political side at all in considering this resolution.
My hon. friend has criticized the creation of the adjustment bureau as an adjustment bureau. He claims that it is unnecessary. He is entitled to his opinion as a member of this House and as a citizen of Canada, and I respect his view, but I must say that there are very, very few people in the House or in Canada who share in it. Surely it is not shared by the returned men, surely it is not shared by the associations, surely it is not shared by the royal commission. I understand that they are all in favour of maintaining an adjustment bureau.
As to whether the money should come from the public or from the canteen fund, it was not for me to decide. The royal commission, after having consulted returned men from all over the country, came to the conclusion that they should recommend to parliament the adoption of legislation the purport of which would be to allow $100,000 for the maintenance of such a bureau, this amount to be placed in the hands of a central board of trustees. My hon. friend says it should not be necessary to have an adjustment bureau. What is the department for? he asks. Well, the returned men have had an office here in Ottawa since 1919; I am quite sure I am within the limit in stating that. Since that time they have had some association or other working in their interests, either to have claims recognized or to obtain employment for returned soldiers in the government service. They have done that. They have been assisted by the former government to a large extent; they have been assisted by this government to a smaller extent; and now here is a proposal which they approve, for I have already quoted to the committee that the principal associations have agreed that this legislation should go through. They are willing to accept the idea that $100,000 should be laid aside for the maintenance of the bureau. What they object to is that one particular association should be singled out for the purpose, and in that I am inclined to agree with -them. I have been under the impression up to three or four weeks ago that the Dominion Veterans Alliance, or the Great War Veterans Association's head office represented all the ex-service men in Canada. I have repeated in this House that the secretary-treasurer of the Great War Veterans Association has been appointed as the soldiers' representative and appeared as such before

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every parliamentary committee since 1919. I remember when we sat in the museum under the chairmanship of Mr. Calder, Mr. MacNeil was recognized on that occasion as the authorized representative of the ex-service men for the committee. This bureau has existed. It has expended undoubtedly a large sum of money, and now the royal commission recommends that a bureau should be maintained. They do not say it should be the Great War Veterans Association, or the Army and Navy Veterans, or the Tubercular Veterans Association, or the Dominion Veterans Alliance. They say: Maintain a bureau, and here is $100,000 that you will pass over to a central board of trustees, the majority of whom will be made up of ex-service men.
Now my idea is that this board should be composed of outstanding men commanding the respect and the confidence of all the returned men in Canada. I have stated that I had already thought of Sir Arthur Currie. As a matter of fact when the bill was under consideration last year I had drafted a letter . to Sir Arthur Currie asking whether it would be agreeable to him to serve on such a board. I am disposed to ask him if he is agreeable to serve on this board. I have no objection to the different associations getting together and indicating whom they want appointed to this board. Further than that I cannot go. I have expressed my willingness to make all possible effort within my power to the end that this -board shall be absolutely removed from political or governmental influence: I do not think I could go any further than that. Surely there is no reason why we should indulge in politics in considering a question of this kind.


John Arthur Clark: Did I understand the
minister to say that the proposals contained in the amendment of the hon. member for the Yukon (Mr. Black) would be embodied in the bill?


Henri Sévérin Béland: In an amendment to -the
bill.


John Arthur Clark: Has it been drafted?


Henri Sévérin Béland: It will be before the House when the bill comes down.
Mr. -CLARK:	Would the minister mind
reading it?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have no objection, but
we are on the resolution now.


John Arthur Clark: I understand the minister
proposes to amend the resolution now before the House when he introduces the bill by altering that portion of the resolution which
is referred to in paragraph 4. He will provide in the bill that the share going to British Columbia and that going to the Yukon shall be separated.


Henri Sévérin Béland: That is right.


John Arthur Clark: And British Columbia will
get a proportion, and the Yukon will get a proportion. I was wondering in what respect the -bill would alter the -resolution before the House.


George Black: Perhaps the minister would let me answer. My suggestion was that taking the percentage of 11.213, as set out in section 4 of the resolution for British Columbia and the Yukon, the Yukon proportion be extracted and put in by itself, just exactly as the minister suggested, when we were discussing -this matter previously in the House, that the share for Prince Edward Island, which is now grouped with Nova Scotia and is set out at 6.288, should be segregated, as it was in fact segregated in the bill of last year. It merely amounts to a separation.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Does my hon. friend wish to know the nature of the amendment?


John Arthur Clark: Yes.


Henri Sévérin Béland: There is now a certain
percentage allotment to British Columbia and the Yukon together. The idea is to make them separate, to take the figures of enlistment, the figures of discharges and the number of pensioners in British Columbia, and to establish the same proportion between discharges and enlistments in British Columbia to those in the Yukon. This plan is somewhat generous to the Yukon. My hon. friend realizes that practically no discharges took place in the Yukon, though 2,700 enlistments were registered there. We take the number of enlistments in British Columbia and the number of enlistments in the Yukon, and then apply to the Yukon the same proportion between discharges and enlistments as exists in British Columbia between discharges and enlistments. That would make it of course somewhat more generous to the Yukon. As to the -pensioners, of course the number is known. We do not know the number of discharges in the Yukon. There is no record in the Militia department of it; so we are allowing the same proportion between enlistment and discharges in the Yukon as exist in British Columbia.


John Arthur Clark: Do I understand there is
no record whatever in the number of discharges in the Yukon?


Henri Sévérin Béland: That is my information.
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John Arthur Clark: Do I understand that the
minister proposes to apply a different principle in arriving at the proportion in the Yukon from the principle applied to Ontario or Quebec or the other provinces?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I do not say that it is
altogether a different principle, but we must take into consideration the geographical conditions. It is realized that men coming from overseas, though they have enlisted in the Yukon, have taken their discharges somewhere in Canada this side of the Yukon; and for the purpose of re-establishing the proportion that would have existed but for this unfortunate circumstance, I would be agreeable to apply to the Yukon the same proportion between discharges and enlistments as exists in British Columbia between discharges and enlistments.


John Arthur Clark: But the share of the Yukon will be taken off British Columbia-not off the other provinces. Is that not a fact?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I must say it will decrease to that extent the share of British Columbia.


John Arthur Clark: Will the minister state what proportion he proposes to give to the Yukon?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have not the figures just now. I thought I had them. I can obtain them.


John Arthur Clark: Can the minister give us any information as to the number of returned soldiers who are now in the Yukon?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have no idea.


John Arthur Clark: Will the minister give us
the number of enlistments that took place in British Columbia and the number in the Yukon?


Henri Sévérin Béland: The number of enlistments in British Columbia was 51,348, and the number of enlistments in the Yukon was 2,327.


John Arthur Clark: In connection with the proportions as they apply to all the provinces, will the minister tell us whether these proportions are worked out on the basis purely of enlistments, or whether the question of service in the theatre of war has anything whatever to do with the making out of those proportions?


Henri Sévérin Béland: The figures relating to discharges apply only to those who were overseas, because the canteen fund is for them only. As to whether they served in the actual theatre of war or not, I do not think there is any difference.


John Arthur Clark: First of all, the minister
takes into consideration as I understand the enlistments, whether the men left Canada or not.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I should think so, because the total enlistment here is 590,000, and I suppose that would include them all.


John Arthur Clark: Why does the minister take
into consideration the enlistments? Why does he include in the proportion those who did not leave Canada, because those men who enlisted but did not leave Canada contributed nothing to the canteen fund, and are in no way interested in it. I am not quite sure that we would apply the same principle to those who enlisted and went to England but did not go to France. I do not know whether there was any contribution to the fund by those who were in England but not in France. So far as Canada is concerned, I understand those who enlisted and did not go overseas contributed nothing. I want to ask why, in working out the proportions, the minister takes into consideration the number of men enlisted who did not go to France.


Henri Sévérin Béland: My hon. friend, of course,
is aware that I am carrying out the suggestion that was made by the royal commission in this regard. They have decided that we should take the enlistments, whether the men went overseas or not, as one basis, then the discharges of those who saw service overseas as another figure and then the number of pensioners. Having arrived at this we should then strike an average for each province, for each territory, and I suppose it is because they thought it was the most equitable manner in which the question could be handled. Personally I have no inclination one way or the other.


John Arthur Clark: Before the minister introduces the bill, will he consult with Sir Arthur Currie, so that when the bill is introduced he may inform the House whether Sir Arthur Currie would be prepared to accept?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Does my hon. friend mean that I should get in touch with Sir Arthur Currie between now and the date of the introduction of the bill? What is the object?


John Arthur Clark: So that the House would be informed then whether the desires of hon. members as expressed to-day can be carried out. If, for instance, Sir Arthur Currie said that he could not act, then we might have some other useful suggestions for the minister, and we might even have amendments to move to the bill. If the minister were in a

Canteen Funds
position to inform the House that he had consulted with Sir Arthur Currie and that the latter was prepared to act as one of the trustees in connection with the adjustment bureau fund, then we would be quite satisfied, in all probability, to allow those sections of the bill to be passed without further discussion or proposed amendments.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I do not say exactly what I shall do in this connection. This is a most unusual .procedure. My hon. friend will admit that it is something absolutely unknown in parliament that hon. gentlemen should request a minister, before he goes any further, to find out by telephone or by letter what the sentiments of one particular person would be in a certain connection. I had the assurance by letter a year ago that Sir Arthur Currie would be willing to serve on such a board. Sir Arthur Currie is living; he is in good health; he is a prominent man; he has to-day as much leisure as he had at that time, and I see no reason why he should refuse to-day. I am somewhat reluctant-I say this in all sincerity-to go to the telephone to ask Sir Arthur Currie whether he would serve on such a board or not. I am satisfied he will be willing. I can say to my hon. friend that it is my intention to ask Sir Arthur Currie to act on this board, but I somewhat hesitate to do it as it is suggested.


John Arthur Clark: The minister says that it is unusual to consult with a man and ask him whether he is prepared to do a thing. With all deference, I cannot see that it would be unusual because there has been a great deal of legislation where individuals have been named in the bills as trustees or in other positions. The minister need not go to the telephone; he need not telegraph. There will be ample time before the bill is introduced for the minister to write or to have his secretary write a letter to Sir Arthur Currie, or to send him a copy of Hansard if he wishes to inform him of the desires of hon. members and the details of the debate, and to get an answer from Sir Arthur Currie so that, if necessary, he can toe named in the legislation as one of the trustees.


Robert James Manion: Might :I in that regard
again point out to the minister as I think I did this afternoon that, in his letter to the Prime Minister of May 7, 1923, Sir Arthur Currie said:
I myself would be glad to serve on such a board.
He had described such a board as we have suggested, and he went on to suggest two or three other members. Therefore at that time 97
he was quite willing to act as a trustee, and I think if the minister approaches him either by letter or telephone, he would probably accept. I am hoping so.


Mr. HUMPHREY:: I rise not for the purpose of opposing this resolution, but to give it my support. This is a very old question, one which has been before the eyes and attention of returned men and others for a number of years. Nevertheless, in giving it my support, I fear it is not going to solve the difficulties of an adjustment bureau. Let us go back a few years to the after period of the war. Immediately after the war ended, adjustment bureaus, committees, and associations were formed throughout the Dominion of Canada to take up the various questions of returned men, and to do the best they could for them, their widows and orphans. These adjustment bureaus have laboured under many adverse conditions, but they have been able to accomplish a great deal. My experience has been that the function of these adjustment bureaus has been to adjust cases so far as they were able to do so, and in this regard they have fulfilled as far as possible their duties to returned men, the different representative bodies and the country.
Clause 2 of the resolution states that the sum of $1CO,000 is to be paid to a central board of three trustees for the purpose of maintaining an adjustment service and bureau for the benefit of ex-service 'men and their dependents. What would be the function of that bureau? I would gather that it would be similar to that of the different organizations that were formed in the past. 1 have always believed that it is the responsibility of the state and that it should never have been the responsibility of organizations of returned men to contribute to an adjustment bureau or service organization to bring forward their different needs and requirements. I am convinced that the question of giving to returned men, their widows and orphans their just dues and rights is a responsibility of the federal government. If we had had a department or a branch of a department in which the returned men had absolute confidence, it would not be necessary now to finance an adjustment bureau by the returned men or from the canteen fund. It is the duty of the state to give the leturned men what is their due without their being obliged to put up a continual fight such as we have witnessed throughout the length and breadth of the country. It has been brought to the attention of parliament and of every government that has been in power since the war that the returned men

Canteen Funds

have had to finance their own organizations in order to obtain what has been regarded as their just due, and in that way it seems to me that the responsibility of the state has been shifted in the administration of some of our departments. In establishing another adjustment bureau we are only perpetuating a good deal of the dissatisfaction that now prevails. Nevertheless, it is my opinion that the bureau is absolutely necessary; I am not of the opinion that it can be done without. I will go so far as to say however that there should have been no necessity for it; it has been my candid opinion that the bureau should have been unnecessary, and we should not have had to pass legislation of this kind, taking money from the canteen funds that belongs to the returned1 men who enlisted and using it for the purpose of financing this institution.
On the other hand, in face of the conditions that exist, I am quite willing to support ithe resolution. From my experience gathered in the past few years in which I have been a member of the special committee investigating pensions and matters of re-establishment, I have come to the conclusion that something was necessary. It has been brought to the attention of parliament that there was a necessity for something in the shape of an investigation, and a commission was appointed, known as the Ralston commission, who after a thorough inquiry brought in a report recommending that steps be taken to provide funds for an adjustment service. I feel therefore that the bureau is necessary, and the next move is to provide the funds. I mulst frankly say however that I cannot agree that it is the duty of returned men's organizations to take their own funds to finance their adjustment service and bureau. I should think that the country would be of the opinion that these organizations deserve some contribution from the general funds to the extent of one hundred, or one hundred and fifty, or two hundred thousand dollars. In view of what is taking place, in view of the different investigations that have been held, I feel that the present is the next best move; but as I have stated before, it is my opinion that if the country had had confidence in the different tribunals that have been set up, this legislation would have been unnecessary.
Now, I do not wish to have it inferred from anything I have said, nor do I want it insinuated, that it is my desire to drag polities into this question in any way whatever, but I feel that I am bound to take this stand in view of all the circumstances. And I take it without prejudice and absolutely with no

desire to reflect upon any of the administrators of the departments. The fact however is, it seems to me, that had the returned men and their organizations had confidence in the Board of Pension Commissioners, and had that body functioned in such a way as to overcome many of the difficulties that arise to-day, as they have arisen in the past few years, the present undertaking would have been obviated. What would be said if during the present session legislation were introduced to establish an adjustment bureau to take care of claims coming before the Civil Service Commission, or an adjustment bureau in connection with the Board of Railway Commissioners? Well, as I see it, the Board of Pension Commissioners is to some extent in the same category as the railway commission or the Civil Service Commission. Here we are providing machinery to enable the returned men to secure their just due, when there Should be no necessity at all for it. It has been proved to my satisfaction that within the past four years particularly the vast majority of these cases have been adjusted by representatives of the organizations before the Board of Pension Commissioners, and I reiterate that if the Board of Pension Commissioners had functioned as the people believed it should have done this legislation would now be uncalled for. Under the circumstances, however, I am perfectly satisfied that this legislation is absolutely in the best interests of the returned men, especially in view of the thorough survey carried out by the Ralston commission. And so far as I have been able to ascertain it has the unanimous approval of the returned men. I am sure that there may be some objections to this legislation, but in view of all the conditions I feel that I can give it my hearty support as being in the very best interests of the returned men and of the country as a whole.


Thomas Langton Church: An afternoon and evening spent in this way in friendly debate in the interests of the returned men is well spent. As I have stated before, some of the men have sent telegrams on this question and I find that there is a great deal of objection to this particular division. The minister will remember that we had a Red Cross and a patriotic fund, involving some $44,000,000, the administration of which was carried out by a large number of prominent business men throughout Canada at a minimum of cost. Here is a canteen fund of about two and a quarter millions and I think it will be agreed that in these four or five sections of the resolution we have the costliest piece of adminia-

Canteen Funds
tration provided for. It is a waste of money, and after the various administrators, Dominion and provincial have got through, there will be very little left to be devoted to the objects of the Ralston report. Here we are in 1925 seven years after the war providing for an adjustment bureau with headquarters at Ottawa and with a paid staff. What it is necessary for I do not know, for I cannot see what it will adjust. I thought that one first result of the Ralston commission's inquiry would be the simplifying of the Pension Act; but there is such a vast amount of red tape connected with the whole thing that the functions of the central board have been largely frustrated. I fail to see what good this particular board can do in the case of a soldier living in London, in Hamilton or in St. Catharines. What is there to adjust?
Why should a soldier need somebody to fight his case for his pension with the government- seven years after the war? Why should we have to go before the D.S.C.R., the pension board, the Federal appeal board, this new bureau, the Soldiers' Aid Commission of Ontario, the municipality, the local soldiers' organizations, and the unit to which he belongs? Why all this red tape seven years after the war to get a small claim against the government adjusted? The soldier is not going to live forever; these returned men are dying off by hundreds every month. Here you have a canteen fund of two and a half million dollars to administer, and you have a complex system of red tape with five or six methods of disposing of it. In the c-ase of the $45,000,000 patriotic fund the services of some of our prominent business men in Canada were enlisted free and the fund was administered with a minimum of cost to the country and the maximum of efficiency.
I think the minister would have been well advised if he had followed a similar course for the administration of the $2,250,000 canteen funds. And I hope he will not think any remarks made from this side of the House are made in an unfriendly way, because I am sure all three parties in the House are trying to do the best they can to help the minister and our returned men. One of the objects of forming the DiS.C.R., as I understand, was largely on account of the lack of sympathy and the red tape in the Militia department. It was felt that that department had not full sympathy with the returned men in some resipects, although it gave a good account of itself during and after the war.
This so called central bureau is claiming for itself very large functions and powers-for the 97i
maintenance and assistance of ex-service men and their dependents. It will not do the work at all. Evidently that is the view of the provincial government of Ontario, for, acting on the report of the Ralston commission, they have voted, I think, $50,000 for the purpose of aiding the returned men of Ontario in presenting their applications before the Dominion government for pensions and relief. Therefore in my opinion, Mr. Chairman, any necessity for the establishment of this proposed bureau is largely taken away by the action of the Ontario government and of various local organizations of returned men who assist the returned soldier to present his case.
I notice that the sum of $20,000 is to be held for the payment of any outstanding accounts. That should never have been charged to this fund; it should have been looked after by the D.S.C.R. Why should a returned man seven years after the war have to retain a lawyer to get his rights which the people of Canada and this parliament are anxious that he should get? No narrow technical construction is now placed upon the Pension Act, and in my opinion there is no occasion for distributing the canteen funds in this way. I agree with the hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Black) that instead of allocating $100,000 to a central board, the work which this central board is to look after should be attended to by the Soldiers Civil Re-establishment department of the government. Indeed, I have every confidence that the minister himself would do far better work with this $100,000 than a central bureau of irresponsible people having no connection with the government and not accountable to the soldiers. As to the provincial boards to be appointed by the Lieutenant Governor in Council in each province, I fail to see what use such boards will be to the returned men. Last year when this matter was up the hon. member for Rainy River (Mr. Manion) asked what the duties of the readjustment board would be, and the minister (Mr. Beland) quoting from the Ralston report, said:
There are a variety of instances in connection with such questions as government employment, land settlement, training, housing and rehabilitation activities generally, the considerations affecting which depend on the presentation of the individual case rather than on the terms of a general regulation. There are also parliamentary matters not only affecting pensions but amendments to existing statutes which may indirectly affect the rights and privileges of ex-service men, and in addition there is the desirability of having some agency completely detached from government organization to supply the necessary personal contact between ex-service men and dependents and those who deal with matters affecting their interests.
And he added:
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This outline fully indicates what the duties of the service bureau will be and, I think, are, because at the present time those duties are being discharged here in Ottawa, and in my opinion to the general satisfaction of the men.
Well, as I have already said, the government of Ontario have offered to fight the cases of returned men before the appeal board, and with the new Pension Act provisions. There should not be any necessity for bureaus and a lot of organizations to get a returned man justice and his rights without all this trouble and annoyance.
The third clause proposes that $50,000 shall be paid to the United Services fund of Great Britain, and $50,000 to the American Red Cross. In my opinion any of our returned men in distress in the United States should be repatriated by the government of Canada and civilly re-established here. Many of them cannot get work there because they will not take out naturalization papers. After the Civil War the Grand Army of the Republic did not have to leave the United States to look for work; they found ample opportunities for their abilities and energies in their own country and members of which organization became President of the United States, state governors, presidents of railways, and filled other important executive positions all over the country, with the result that they dominated public life and the government of the United States for fifty years after Lee's surrender to Grant and the civil war of the North and South was ended. They got into politics and stayed there and the returned men in Canada should follow their noble .example.
Rather than create a control board it would be better if the minister and his department did this work themselves. It was [DOT]stated by the minister last year that the residue of the fund was quite a respectable sum, amounting to over $2,000,000. This, he said, was to be divided among the nine provinces on a pro rata basis. The Lieutenant Governor in Council in each province was to appoint a board to administer the fund. The minister was asked whether any ballot had been taken to ascertain the views of the returned men, and he replied that 5,000 ballots had been cast by returned men and that the largest number of votes was given in favour of the education of orphan children;-schemes of education, and that the second largest favoured relieving meritorious cases or cases of unemployment and distress. These were the two main schemes -suggested. If it is a question of relieving meritorious
11 p.m. cases and cases of unemployment, this money could far better be 
distributed among the municipalities throughout the country for that purpose.
The Ralston commission went into the whole question of the canteen fund. They investigated what the Mother Country had done and what methods had been adopted in Australia and the United States, and they made certain recommendations. The first principle the adoption of which the commission recommended was as follows:
Firstly, that the fund should, in the opinion of the commission, not be sipent immediately but its use should be providently spread over a reasonable number of years so that there would be something available for children now very young who might later be benefited by special assistance in particularly distressing circumstances which might arise at any time* until a wage-earning period is reached, or who might become eligible for school or university scholarships It such were created. Neither should the fund be kept perpetually.
I think that is a good principle. The report continues:
The report of the United Services fund in Great Britain contains the .following:-
"It is preferable in a fund of this nature that the greatest amount of good should be done over a limited period of reasonable length rather than that any sum should be set aside for an indefinite period.*' In England the period decided on was fifteen years from 1923.
Then the other recommendations they make are as follows:
Secondly, any use of the fund for relief purposes from time to time should be limited to the class of cases for which no relief is then available from government sources; in other words, the money should not be used to relieve the state of any responsibil.ty devolving on it.
I think that is a good principle, because many returned men who were over in France for two, three or four years get no relief under existing legislation. Such a fund as this would take care of some of these cases.
Thirdly, that only ex-members of the Canadian Expeditionary Forces below commissioned rank who served in France or England, and their dependents, should be eligible to participate in the benefits of the fund.
That is to give the rank and file the benefit of the fund; I think that is a very wise proviso. With these principles in mind -the commission has two suggestions to make regarding schemes for disposition of the fund, as follows:
(a)	Assistance to specially meritorious cases where ex-members of the forces and their dependents are n genuine distress. No elaboration is needed here. The experience of the United Services fund of Great Britain will afford valuable information and guidance. This is the purpose for which a similar fund is used in Australia, and has been frequently put forward as a suggestion.
(b)	The provision of scholarships in schools (not necessarily confined to the higher grades) and universities, for specially promising children of ex-servwa men.

Canteen Funds
With regard to that educational clause, many children whose fathers were killed in the war can only with difficulty be sent to high school on the miserable pittance of $18 a month given for maintenance of high school children.
The main recommendation of the Ralston report is in respect to meritorious cases or cases of unemployment. Just the other day the Mayor of Brantford sent a communication to Ottawa addressed to the Prime Minister, in which he said:
Situation, among unemployed ex-service men and their families one of extreme seriousness. Local organizations, churches and municipal authorities doing everything possible to provide relief among the unemployed. We respectfully suggest that men who served overseas and their dependents have special right to look to federal government of Canada with reasonable confidence for asistance in such period of difficulty and distress. May we urge cabinet consideration.
The hon. member for Kingston said that returned men who were out of work were the wards of the state, and so they are. They should be and they are entitled to be looked after properly. They should not be obliged to go around the large cities, when they are out of work, begging for relief for themselves and their families. I believe the minister tried to do what he could last year in this connection, but all the government can do is a mere nothing when you consider the large number of men who are in need of assistance. I say again that either the minister should take charge of this fund himself or he should appoint two or three good business men, such as those who gave their services in connection with the patriotic fund and red cross activities, to administer the fund. If that was done a great deal of unnecessary and useless duplication and paid organization would be saved and a great deal of unnecessary work and red tape would be avoided.


Robert James Manion: Mr. Chairman, it is
eleven o'clock, and I think we-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Go on.


Robert James Manion: We will go on if you wish, but I was going to suggest to the minister that there are a number of members who wish to take some part in this discussion.


Mr. McBRIDE:: Bring them here.


Robert James Manion: I refer to such members as the hon. member for Parry Sound (Mr. Arthurs) an outstanding returned soldier member of this House, who has always been on the committees dealing with these matters and who is well posted on them. The reason he is not here is because none of us expected that this matter was to come up to-day. Until
I got here this afternoon I had no idea that the resolution was to be taken up; I thought it was likely to go over until after the budget debate. There is no intention of holding the minister up, but I would like to point out to him, as I said to him privately a moment ago, that whatever time is taken up now on the resolution will be saved when the bill is before the House. I would ask the minister to let the resolution stand over for another day, if reasonably assured that it will not be further held up; I know of no reason why it should not carry the next time it is considered. There are quite a number of points about this resolution which we have not yet dealt with. I was going to speak just two hours ago on one aspect of the case; I was going to bring to the attention of the minister again the question of the $100,000, but I was interrupted, I think b}^ the hon. member for Yukon; some others followed him, and I have not since had a chance to say a word. I do not wish to go on at this stage.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Go on.


Robert James Manion: That is for the minister
to say; if he says so, we will go on. I think, however, he will not save any particular time by going on. He would probably be just as well advised to have the resolution held up another day.


Henri Sévérin Béland: We discussed the resolution on a former occasion for two hours, and we have discussed it the whole of to-day with the exception of the hour given to the budget. Apparently only one clause of the resolution lends itself to objection on the part of certain hon. members. I think that almost every hon. member who has an interest in this resolution has addressed the House. The hon. member for Parry Sound (Mr. Arthurs) for whom I have the greatest admiration, was in his seat the other day and shared in the discussion. I say in reply to my hon. friend that if he is willing to allow the resolution to pass, we will introduce the bill this evening, and it will go down on the order paper for its Second reading, and then the next time the bill comes up in the House there will be ample opportunity for discussion on the second reading, and again in committee of the Whole, when the whole bill will have to be considered clause by clause, and when any amendment may be proposed. I have supplied the House with a'll possible information in connection with this measure. It passed the House last year, and hon. members are perfectly conversant with the whole situation. I think the House has been given
Canteen Funds

the most generous treatment in connection with this bill. Now I appeal to my hon. friend to allow this resolution to pass. That does not commit him or his friends in any degree.


Robert James Manion: I am sorry to disagree with my -hon. friend, but it does commit us. The resolution when passed absolutely commits us to the principles and there are two or three principles which I wish to discuss before agreeing with them. I have no intention at the present time of pressing some of the objections which I, and I think other hon. members, have to a vote, but we wish to discuss the resolution fairly before it passes. I do not wish to reply to the minister until he has finished his remarks, but I would ask him to bear in mind that if we vote for the resolution, we are voting for the principles of the resolution, and with some of them we do not agree at the present time.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I take it for granted that
my hon. friend agrees to the principle of the resolution.


Robert James Manion: The large principle, but
not with smaller principles.


Henri Sévérin Béland: If my hon. friend wants
to have clauses of the bill amended, it will be open to him to move an amendment in committee of the Whole on the bill. I appeal to my hon. friend. I think in the interests of expedition of business in this House it will be better to allow this resolution to pass tonight. I think we have been most generous in regard to this measure, and if we allowed as much time on every other measure as we have allowed for discussion on this, the session would never come to an end.


John Arthur Clark: I would like to point this out to the minister. While it is quite true this discussion was introduced this afternoon after the budget speech was delivered, though I have a vital interest in this matter, I have been on my feet only twice since the budget speech was delivered, and each time it was merely to ask the minister a question, I have some rather extended observations to make first, on clause 2 of the resolution. There are several things that I do not agree with, and perhaps the minister knows my position on that clause fairly well from my questions. Again, clause 5, which refers to the whole fund, involving an amount of $2,000,000, has not had one word of discussion. I want to tell the minister now that I do not agree with the principle of his resolution, and before the bill is introduced I would like to have the opportunity of presenting my posi-*Mr. Beland.]
tion to the House. There has been no objection taken by any member so far in regard to the principle involved in clause 5, which relates to the disposal of $2,000,000, and I do not think it is fair to ask any hon. member to make a presentation in regard to the principle of a clause involving the disposal of $2,000,000 at ten minutes after eleven.


Mr. VIEN:: Why?


John Arthur Clark: Would it be fair to ask
any minister to commence the discussion of any subject after eleven o'clock at night? Why not bring down the budget after eleven o'clock, and then go on with the budget debate? I am pointing out that there has not been one word of debate on clause 5 this afternoon or evening, and I assure the minister that it is perhaps the mo'st vital portion of his resolution. Personally I have not been given one opportunity to speak on any portion of this resolution since it was introduced this afternoon. I have asked two or three questions but I certainly have not made any remarks on the resolution, because I have not had the opportunity.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Is my hon. friend in a
position to say how much longer time he would require, he and his friends, to dispose of the resolution or come to a vote on it?


John Arthur Clark: So far as I am concerned, I would certainly want three-quarters of an hour.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Go ahead.


John Arthur Clark: I assure the minister that
the observations I will make will require some further discussion. I know there will be points brought out that certainly members on this side of the House will want to discuss, and I am quite certain that if hon. members opposite whom I now see thick in their seats, but who took no interest in this debate this afternoon and this evening-


An hon. MEMBER:: We are having enough now.


John Arthur Clark: Hon. members are interrupting me now when I am attempting to present the matter in fairness to the minister. All I am asking is fair treatment, for an opportunity to discuss the disposal of the main portion of the canteen fund, involving $2,000,000, and which portion of the resolution has not received five minutes of discussion either to-day or at any time this year.


Robert James Manion: Before the minister replies, may I say further that my hon. friend from Burrard (Mr. Clark) is not the only one

Canteen Funds
[DOT]who wishes to discuss this matter? The minister asked the hon. member for Burrard how long he would be likely to take, and the hon. member has indicated how long he would take. I have already suggested to the minister, and I repeat it, that I have no reason for believing that there would be any likelihood of holding this bill up further than possibly another afternoon. That means only three hours, and possibly part of the evening at most, of another day. The discussion that takes place on the resolution will mean that much less discussion on the bill, because we will have come to an agreement, I hope, with the minister. I am not criticizing the minister's attitude this afternoon in any way. He has been quite reasonable in his acceptance of suggestions that have been put forward, and I give him credit for that. There are other questions upon which, if we had more time, he would perhaps come to agree with us. I again suggest to the minister, and I make this suggestion just as much for the purpose of saving time as my hon. friend the minister desires it, that he hold this over for another day and discuss it on one more occasion, whenever he wishes; that is his privilege, of course. The discussion that takes place on the resolution will save time on the bill.


Levi William Humphrey: Just before the minister answers, we all know what took place in this House in regard to this legislation on a previous occasion. This House has been accused of not sending legislation forward early enough, and it seems to me that with all the discussion we have had, we really ought to be in a position to get down to some basis of co-operation, and advance some legislation. It would appear to me that there would be ample opportunity for making suggestions or even amendments when the bill comes down and is considered clause by clause in committee. I would be strongly in favour of asking the minister to go on with the resolution.


George Newcombe Gordon: Shall I report the resolution?


Robert James Manion: I would like the minister to reply.


Henri Sévérin Béland: May we expect to dispose of this resolution to-morrow?


Robert James Manion: To-morrow is private members' day, is it not?


Ernest Lapointe: No.


Robert James Manion: I understood it was.


Charles A. Stewart: We postponed the budget debate till Thursday in order to oblige hon. gentlemen opposite.


Robert James Manion: The hon. minister was not doing more than other governments have done. The request has never been refused. It has always been granted.


Charles A. Stewart: No.


Robert James Manion: The minister was doing the same as previous ministers have done.


Charles A. Stewart: Oh, no.


Robert James Manion: In fact if he had not done it, it would have been an act of discourtesy, because it has never been refused.


Charles A. Stewart: Oh no.


Robert James Manion: I would not like to promise that three hours would complete it. Possibly it would.


Mr. MACDONALD (Pictou):: Tommy
Church has been obstructing for an hour. Everybody knows that.


Robert James Manion: He has been doing nothing of the sort. The hon. member for North Toronto (Mr. Church) has been expressing his views, as any hon. member has a right to do. He has been making a speech. The last time he spoke he did not occupy more than half an hour. I appeal to the fairness of the minister and the fairness of the government in this matter. If they do not wish to accede to the request, I do not desire to make any threat about it, but we have a lot of material which would take some time if we went on with it.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Go on.


Robert James Manion: Might I ask the Prime Minister or the Minister of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment, or our noisy friend from Hants (Mr. Martell) who is demanding that we should go on, what is all the rush this session? Wre are dealing here with a question which is of the utmost importance. I have seen the hon. gentleman who is Prime Minister at the present time, many times when in opposition, hold up the House for hours on one item.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: No.


Robert James Manion: Yes, I think we had to put on closure a number of times. The Minister of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment states that he has 'been very generous in his treatment of hon. members. Let me deal with his generosity. We dealt with this resolution the first time it came up for two
Supply-M ines

hours in the afternoon, then we dealt with it for an hour and a half in the evening, and we have discussed it for about five hours to-day, and this is a resolution dealing with a trust fund of a million dollars. I do not think that is a long time to spend upon such a matter. In fact it is a short time considering the importance of the resolution, and if we are to deal with the question properly we should have plenty of time to discuss it. I appeal to the minister to postpone the discussion.


Henri Sévérin Béland: My hon. friend goes back on his agreement that he would dispose of this resolution at the next sitting or that we should occupy only one more sitting with it. If my hon. friend is not disposed to have this resolution decided by to-morrow night at six o'clock-and that would mean three hours' debate to-morrow-we might go on this evening-


Robert James Manion: I was only saying this because I was not certain. Some of my friends suggest it might be finished by six o'clock. I am willing to agree with the proposition. I will go half-way with the minister ,and agree that it be finished by six o'clock.
Progress reported.



DEPARTMENT OF MINES

[Stage Direction]
The House in committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the Chair.
Mines:
Salaries	$529,070
Contingencies	 6,700
Charles A. Stewart: I may say, for the information of the committee that there is no change in the number of the staff. There is exactly the same staff as last year but we have a slight reduction which comes about by reason of readjustments in the staff, the young men being moved up. We have exactly the same number.


Arthur Meighen: The reduction would be only a small fraction of the extra amount paid out no doubt for the superannuations.


Charles A. Stewart: I cannot give my hon. friend information as to that. I will do so later.


Arthur Meighen: The amount would be very large, I think.


Charles A. Stewart: Not in that branch because we have had very few superannuations.


Arthur Meighen: I am not very sure.


Charles A. Stewart: There were very few. There was a considerable number in the Interior department.


Arthur Meighen: Perhaps we can agree on what information we ought to have. The minister would have to get the number of employees who are now retired under the Calder Act and walking the streets of Ottawa.


Charles A. Stewart: If my hon. friend wants the retirements I will have to get them.


Arthur Meighen: How is it the deputy minister does not come in for increase, with all the other deputies?


Charles A. Stewart: It is the intention to provide for an increase for the deputy. There has been an oversight or an error in the printing. It will be rectified when the supplementaries come in. I am going to ask for an addition of $2,000 to Mr. Camsell's salary. It was intended to place it in the original estimates, but through a printer's error the mistake occurred, and I wish to inform the committee that that will appear in the supplementary estimates.


Arthur Meighen: That error wipes out about sixty per cent of the savings.


Charles A. Stewart: No.


Arthur Meighen: The savings are $3,600 and that increase wipes out $2,000 of the amount. I am not complaining in the case of Mr. Camsell. Is there any other salary raised?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


Arthur Meighen: I still adhere to my statement that there have been utterly indefensible increases to all the deputies in the last few years, but certainly there should be no discrimination against any of them. We cannot carry this item because we cannot get all the information to-night. I do not know why the minister wishes to go into Mines at this late hour of the night.


Charles A. Stewart: I will be very frank with my hon. friend. . I am not in a position to bring every one of these items before the committee to-night. I simply want to get the Mines estimates before the committee, and I have no desire to go into a discussion of them. This item is the same as last year, and I did not conceive there would be any discussion about it.


Arthur Meighen: What are the contingencies used for?

Supply-Mines


Charles A. Stewart: I do not
know that I have the itemized statement, but this money is used for travelling expenses of officers of the department, stationery and other items that one cannot very well define.


Arthur Meighen: There has been a substantial increase in the expenditures of this department of late years. I notice in 1920-21, the vote was $446,000; in 1921-22, $477,000, and it has now got up to $529,000. What extra work is being done?


Charles A. Stewart: We have
not increased the field work very materially although it has been extended in some directions. My right hon. friend will recollect that this department was cut pretty fine- at least I found it in that condition-and some very important work has to be performed by the department. ' I should like to have a good deal more money to carry on this work. The geological survey work is very important in view of the fact that the mining industry of Canada is expanding all the time. Our fuel work has brought very good results. We have spent some $50,000 additional on research work of that character over and above what we were expending in former years, but I think we can show results for that inasmuch as in regard to the production of coke, in a bill which I will introduce later, we shall be able to show that we can cut the cost of domestic fuel in Canada veTy considerably through the research work that has been carried on. We have built this year an addition to the laboratory in which various testing processes are going on in connection with minerals and fuel.


Arthur Meighen: That is in Ottawa?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, at the central plant. We have not made extensions anywhere else. That accounts for the expansion of the department to that extent.


Arthur Meighen: Is this a process that
has been discovered of producing coke?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: From Canadian coal?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, or from American coal. It is the transformation of bituminous coal into coke for domestic purposes.


Arthur Meighen: What is the principle
of the transformation?


Charles A. Stewart: Through the Semet-Solvay by-product ovens. After the experiments were carried on in the laboratory
here, a plant was constructed at Hamilton and there is now one at Winnipeg manufacturing this fuel.


Robert James Manion: Is that the Solvay coke
that is being put on the market at the present time?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: Those plants are government plants?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


Arthur Meighen: They are using the government discovery?


Charles A. Stewart: Not altogether, because the ovens were patented in the United States. We have carried on many experiments and) spent some money in ascertaining where these coking plants could be established satisfactorily and what sized population would consume the by-products from one of those plants. That is very essential in the transformation process, because gas is one of the largest ingredients taken from the coal and it must be consumed on the spot. It cannot be transported.


Arthur Meighen: Is the nature of the investigation to ascertain what population is required in proportion to the production of coke to use the by-products, or is the process itself a discovery of departmental officials?


Charles A. Stewart: It is not a discovery of departmental officials, but a good deal of research work has been carried on here in connection with the work. The Department of Mines of Canada and the Department of Mines of the United States are working very closely together in regard to all processes in which both are interested. To say that Canadian research work discovered this process would be entirely misleading. It is true that we have carried on a good deal of investigational work in connection with peat. My yight hon. friend knows when that was started. That is completed and other experiments in research work are being carried on in connection with fuel development generally.


Arthur Meighen: Is anybody producing
peat now?


Charles A. Stewart: Not at the
moment although we expect the manufacture to go on at Alfred.


Mr. SUTHERLAND:: Has the plant referred to by the minister at Hamilton not been in existence for six or seven years?


Charles A. Stewart: No.
Supply-Mines


Donald Sutherland: Five years?


Charles A. Stewart: I think they began operations last March, if my memory serves me right.


Donald Sutherland: They were manufacturing coke in Hamilton at least five years ago.


Charles A. Stewart: That is
metallurgical coke. The plant I speak of is an entirely new plant which began operations last March.


Donald Sutherland: I notice there has been an increase of 37 in the number of employees of this branch since 1921. A considerable amount of the increase under this vote would be for the increased number of employees.


Charles A. Stewart: That is quite true.


Donald Sutherland: And a considerable number at that time were employed in experiments that were being conducted with regard to the manufacture of peat. That has been discontinued.


Charles A. Stewart: I do not
know that that is quite correct. We have been voting year by year certain sums of money for experimental purposes, and outside men have been employed from time to time on that work.


Arthur Meighen: There is nobody at the peait investigation mow?


Charles A. Stewart: Not for a year.


Arthur Meighen: That is completed as far as the department is concerned. The government does not purpose re-establishing its experiments at Alfred?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


Arthur Meighen: Does the government
expect private parties to come there and continue production with the machines it has provided?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: When?


Charles A. Stewart: The governments of Ontario and the Dominion entered into an arrangement with a company to take over the machinery and begin operations, but they have not succeeded in getting under way. Operations are expected to commence on the first of May I understand.


Arthur Meighen: What is the nature of
the arrangement?


Charles A. Stewart: They were
to take over the plant and put in sufficient capital to equip it properly. I think they will operate it by electricity rather than steam, securing power from some nearby development. They are to operate for a period of years, and if they carry out their arrangement the plant is to be turned over to them.


Arthur Meighen: What about the real
estate?


Charles A. Stewart: We never
owned the land, it was rented.


Arthur Meighen: Has the coal investigation in Saskatchewan ceased?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, so far as we are concerned that is to say, we are voting no more money for it. At the moment the property is under proposed lease to Mr. Hugh Sutherland.


Arthur Meighen: The old man?


Charles A. Stewart: I do not
know the gentleman, but he has the coal mines there in the vicinity. We succeeded in getting coal carbonized for briquetting purposes, but the difficulty was that in the early stages the test that had seemed to prove successful here in a small way did not work out commercially. This board that had the matter under control experienced a great deal of difficulty and spent considerable money. Later on there was tried a carbonization plant invented by the Hood-Odell people, associated with the United1 States Bureau of Mines, who were successful in experiments with low grade fuel in the Dakotas. We sent some of our raw material to be tested and we sent along our own men. The work was satisfactory, and we established a plant and made a thorough test ourselves. We found that with some improvements put in by our own men char could be successfully turned out and we briquetted that char. Some of the briquettes were distributed throughout the city here to those who were interested, and we concluded that the test had been successful and that the process could be used in a commercial way. As my hon. friend knows, the provincial governments of Manitoba and Saskatchewan as well as the federal government were interested in the plant at Bienfait. Mr. Sutherland pro-

Supply-M ines
posed to lease that property but I believe that at tihe moment he is not satisfied with the process we developed; he wants to test a German process which he has always had in mind and which he endeavoured to get the board to adopt. He has sent a quantity of the coal over to Germany to be tested and we are watching the experiment With interest. The plant will continue to operate with our process but if Mr. Sutherland thinks that the other method is preferaible he will adopt it.


Arthur Meighen: Is he the possessor of
the government plant now?


Charles A. Stewart: He has control of it at the moment, yes.


Mr. JOHNSTON:: Did the department
carry its investigation far enough to satisfy itself that peat can be manufactured at a marketable price?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, within a reasonable shipping distance.


John Frederick Johnston: To compete with coal?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Donald Sutherland: In view of the discontinuance of its own experiments, is the government rendering any assistance to those who are still making tests? I have in mind a man in western Ontario who has been engaged in this work for at least fifteen years and at various times he has put a considerable quantity of the product on the market, having spent a lot of money in connection with the manufacturing of peat. This plant is located in the county of Middlesex near London. I wonder whether the government renders any assistance in a case of that kind where private individuals are conducting experiments on their own behalf. The briquettes placed on the market from this source have given very general satisfaction, but it seems a considerable undertaking for a private individual, as in this case, to carry on experiments of that kind over a number of years without receiving some assistance.


Charles A. Stewart: We are alwaj'S ready to lend any assistance we can. There is an engineer in the city who thinks we are on the wrong track with our process, which is one of sun-drying; he thinks it is possible to squeeze the moisture out of peat by pressure. So far as we are able to discover, in Germany, in Great Britain and elsewhere, that process has never been successful although it would be very desirable if it were practicable. However, we have
given him material to go on with in his experiments to see whether be can demonstrate the possibility of separating by pressure the fuel from the water content. I cannot say what success he has had. As to the remarks of my hon. friend (Mr. 'Sutherland), I 'have never heard of the gentleman to whom he has referred; at any rate, be has not applied to the department, so far as we know. Ontario is of course one of the acute fuel areas in Canada and there is an immense amount of peat in the province; so that if this peat can be manufactured by a perfected process we are certainly very much interested in the possibility.


John Frederick Johnston: Has not the pressure
process been attempted in this country? I remember twenty-five years ago inspecting a plant in Toronto where they were attempting to eliminate the moisture by pressure. They spent many thousands of dollars without any result.


Donald Sutherland: It was a pressure
process that was applied in the plant I have referred to. Of course, the peat is dried as much as possible before it is subjected to treatment and I know that the operator had great confidence in being eventually successful. During the past two years I have heard nothing further than that he was carrying on. I visited the plant at one time and was much interested in it; I was particularly impressed with the owner's confidence in his ability to make a success of it. I must say I was somewhat disappointed to learn that the government had almost given up hopes of being successful with the experiments carried on in the vicinity of Ottawa. The fuel question is of great importance to this country and every encouragement should be given in a case such as that to which I 'have referred, if any encouragement can be given by the government, for it would mean a great deal to the people of that locality.


Charles A. Stewart: Is it partly a pressure process?


Donald Sutherland: Yes, very largely,
and the plant is considerable. The owner is Dr. Williams of London. He at one time resided in a place close by and acquired the property, and he has since spent a large amount of money developing the plant in the township of Dorchester.


Arthur Meighen: Apparently the briquetting money spent did not result in very much.


Charles A. Stewart: At Bienfait?
Supply-M ines


Arthur Meighen: Yes. As I understand,
the process which the government developed did not prove practical when applied to large quantities of peat.


Charles A. Stewart: Oh, yes it
is quite practical. There is the question perhaps of expense, but there is no question about the practicability of the process.


Arthur Meighen: It was not commercially practicable. The process finally adopted was that in use in the States. This is not very encouraging for our research work, and it looks as if we would get along better if we just watched what other people were doing. Now the whole thing is taken over by Mr. Hugh Sutherland. If he is the man I take him to be, he is approximately 80 or 82 years of age.


Charles A. Stewart: He is the
head of the company.


Mr MEIGHEN:: I wish him success. I
find in all these departments a list of officials that really makes one quail to read, but the Department of Mines has all the belts and records for strange names. I do not suppose any of us know anything about them, and I should 'like to have some of the officials produced to see what they look like. For instance, here is an archaeologist, followed by a zoologist (mammalia), an ornithologist, a chief botanist, several ethnologists, an associate invertebrate palaeontologist. Then there is a head translator. One is at a loss to know what he can be translating.


Charles A. Stewart: He is translating for our French editions.


Arthur Meighen: I do not know what he
needs to be translating into French or English either in the Mines department. Then we have a peat specialist still, although the peat work is done; next we have a chief taxidermist and herpetologist, a cartographer, an artist in vertebrate palaeontology and two assistant artists, an assistant ethnologist, two collector preparator specialists, an assistant invertebrate palaiontologist, three senior collector preparators, and so on. Who is the real author of these names? I have not mentioned the herbarium assistant. Several officials have left the department I know, but it does 
really look as though there were a lot of men engaged in doing something which does not seem to me to be connected with mineralogy.


Charles A. Stewart: Quite true; all those strange names come from the museum.


Arthur Meighen: That is where they ought to be.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
On motion of Mr. Mackenzie King the House adjourned at 11.45 ip.m.
Wednesday, March 25, 1925