1925-04-03

REPORTS

[Stage Direction]
First report of the select standing committee on Agriculture and Colonization-Mr. Kay.


[Stage Direction]
The House resumed from Thursday, April 2, consideration of the motion of Hon. J. A. Robb (Acting Minister of Finance) that Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair for the House to go into committee Of Ways and Means, and the proposed amendment thereto of Sir Henry Drayton.
Mr. ALEXANDRE J. DOUCET (Kent, N.B.):	In rising to continue this debate
upon the budget as presented by the Acting Minister of Finance (Mr. Robb) I must state first that the section of the country which I represent is of the opinion that the present government has failed to economize, has not practised any retrenchment, and is guilty of wholesale extravagance in connection with the spending of the public funds of the Dominion. In order to make good this statement I have gone to the trouble of consulting some of the reports that have been laid upon the table of the House since the beginning of this session. I find that numerous commissions have been journeying from one end of the country to the other at an enormous cost to 117
the ratepayers of Canada; furthermore, other items of expenditure are in my opinion not in keeping with such a policy of retrenchment and economy as we should put into practice in this country in the crisis through which we are now passing. Let me mention a few of the expenditure to which I have reference. We find, for example, the pulp wood commission involving the country in an expenditure of $75,672; the grain commission at a cost of $170,610; the W. T. R. Preston roving commission costing over $12,800; and an expenditure on immigration within the last two years of over $2,000,000, notwithstanding that our own people have all this while been crossing the border going to the south of us.
Mr. SPENCER:: Is not the statement rather low at $2,000,000?


Mr. DOUCET:: My figures are going to
be conservative in the extreme; I do not propose to exaggerate on that or any other point. Then we have an expenditure on the development of a golf course at Jasper park in Alberta of $124,290 and an expenditure on a golf course at Minaki of $94,631. In addition to these sums we find that advertising by the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Low), to the effect that "Canada is coming through", has cost us practically $3,000 while advertising contracts on the part of the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Motherwell) amount to $55,000, amongst which I find an item of some $7,000 for insect pests. On that point, the people of this country think they have sufficient pests just now without advertising any more. And when we compare the salaries and contingencies of the civil service for the fiscal year 1921-22, with those of the year 1925-26, we find an increase of $1,236,547; while, comparing the salaries and remuneration paid to deputy ministers and heads of departments between the years 1921 and 1924, we discover a further increase of $51,000. Add to all that the numerous other expenditures entailed in the Scribe hotel deal, the Union club of London, the junketing trip to Wembley, and the completion of the tower of this building, which although a manifest necessity at some time is nevertheless unwarrantable at the present moment, an item that could very well be dispensed with until later on-adding all these things together, I say, we have an expenditure of millions of dollars that could have been avoided. There seems to be no attempt on the part of this administration to curtail expenditures or to retrench and economize in any direction; and in consequence, from every section of Can-

The Budget-Mr. Doucet

ada from the Atlantic to the Pacific, the cry goes up of hard times. It is no wonder that the electorate are anxious that the present government should appeal to them for their judgment.
Speaking on the budget, in the session of 1924, I was told by my hon. friend from Gloucester (Mr. Robichaud) that the amendment proposed to the budget was of such a nature that it would increase the taxation of the farming and fishing population of my section of the country. I thought otherwise, and I stated at the time that the reductions on fertilizers and fanning implements proposed in the budget would not benefit the farmers of the Dominion. I have before me statistics to confirm my contention at that time. These statistics are published by the Department of Agriculture and show the prices of mixed fertilizers for 1924 and 1925. I am quoting from the issues of February 7, 1924, and February 5, 1925, of Seed, Feed and Fertilizers Markets, and I am confident that no hon. member will dispute these figures for mixed fertilizers at New Brunswick points:
1924	1925
Fertilizer, 2-10-2	
$34	00	$36	63Fertilizer, 4-8-4	
40	70	42	09Fertilizer, 2-8-10	
38	80	40	50
And at Quebec points-
Nitrate of Soda	
62	50	68	00Sulphate of Ammonia	
78	00	80	00Muriate of Potash	
39	45	45	00Sulphate of Potash	
47	00	62	50
Then again, while the 20 per cent duty was taken off acid phosphate, the price to Nova Scotia points in 1924 was $18.50 as against $20.75 this year, or an increase of $2.25 per ton.
Now, Mr. Speaker, the farmers of this country had been led to believe that the reduction of 5 per cent in the tariff on farming implements would benefit them greatly. I have taken pains to get the price lists of farm implements from manufacturers in Quebec and from the International Harvester Company in Ontario. I will not weary the House by reading a long list, I will content myself with a comparison of 1923 and 1925 prices on six implements which practically every farmer uses. This is the list:
1923	1925
Disc harrow, American manufacture..	$ 51	00	I 60	00Disc harrow, Canadian manufacture..	45	50	50	50Disc drill, American manufacture.. ..	143	00	150	00Five-foot mower	
92	00	93	50Ensilage blower	
225	00	250	00Feed cutter	
75	00	80	00


Mr. LEADER:: Why does the hon. gentleman skip 1924? I would respectfully ask him to give the prices for that year.


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: If the hon. member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Leader) had waited half a minute I would have given him a similar comparison on other implements for 1924.


Harry Leader: You will excuse me. I contend that that is not fair. You should give prices on the implements you have included in your 1923 and 1925 comparison.


Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: You get two reductions.


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: The increase over 1923 prices on the list I have given is $52.50, or 8J per cent on the six implements. Now, a comparison as between 1924 and 1925 prices:
1924	1925
Manure spreader, No.	10	
$189	50	$174	50Potato planter	
169	75	155	00Potato digger, No.	5-B	
213	40	195	00Milwaukee gasoline	engine, 12 h.p. 659	60	650	00Threshing outfit, No. 5	
500	00	490	00Walking plow, No.	27	
22	00	22	00Stump puller, No.	40-A	
345	00	330	00$2,098 90	$2,016 50
These totals show a reduction of $82.40, or less than 4 per cent, although the 6 per cent war tax was taken off and also customs duty. Why, it is nothing new, each and every farmer who has had to buy farm implements knows perfectly well that there has not been any reduction in price compared with the remission of the war tax and the reduction of 5 per cent in the tariff.


Mr. ARCHAMBAULT:: Does my hon. friend favour a reduction of duty on gasoline engines?


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: Mr. Speaker, my hon.
friend from Restigouche and Madawaska (Mr. Michaud) may be experienced in gasoline engines, but I doubt whether my hon. friend from Chambiy and Vercheres (Mr. Archam-bault) would care to discuss this article of machinery just now.


Mr. MICHAUD:: I beg my hon. friend's
pardon, the question put by my hon. friend from Chambiy and Vercheres did not originate with me, because I was sure my hon. friend-


Henry Lumley Drayton: Order.


Joseph Archambault: Will my hon.
friend be kind enough to give me an answer?


Mr. SPEAKER:: Order.


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: Mr. Speaker, I understand that there is an arrangement between the

The Budget-Mr. Doucet
whips to hasten this debate, and I have given my promise to make my remarks as short as possible.
Mr. AjRCHAMBAULT :	It will not take
long to say yes or no.


Hewitt Bostock: Order.


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: If my hon. friend wishes
to take the floor and make a speech I will defer my further remarks. Now, the hon. member for Cape Breton South and Richmond (Mr. Carroll) in the course of his address on the budget referred to the express rates upon fresh fish from the Maritime provinces to the central provinces and contended that we had1 not been dealt with fairly. Thereupon the hon. member for Kings, P.E.I. (Mr. Hughes) said: "Why, the hon. member does not know that the present rates are very favourable?" I felt pretty confident that the hon. member for Kings, P.EJ. must be in error, but to be absolutely certain I made inquiries. True, there has been a reduction, but the Maritime provinces are still discriminated against, for while the express rate on fresh fish from Prince Rupert to Winnipeg is $4.28 per hundred pounds, from Halifax to. Winnipeg, practically the same distance, the express rate is $5.35-a difference of over $1 per 100 pounds. It is scarcely necessary to add, that those who know the codfish market of this country are aware that a cent a pound1 is a great deal to pay over and above the rate paid by their competitors on the Pacific coast. There has been some reduction of express rates on fresh fish from the Atlantic ports to Montreal and Toronto, but that reduction is applicable only to carload lots. Now, probably every hon. member knows that it is not often that a full carload of fresh fish can be sent from the Maritime provinces to the central markets, because those markets are not as a rule in a position to handle a full carload shipment.
There is a matter in connection with the fishing industry about which I want to say a word, particularly in view of the fact that the amendments to the excise tax as contained in the budget proposals make no reference to it. I wish to point out that while ice cream, which is not a dire necessity, is placed on the free list, and while canned vegetables and fruits, jams, jellies and marmalades are given a rate of 21 per cent; a 5 per cent excise tax is imposed upon the products of the fish canning industries of this country. There is a 5 per cent tax on canned clams, haddock, herring, lobsters, mackerel, pilchards, salmon, oysters and quahaugs. I submit that the fish canning 117J
industries of the Maritime provinces and of the Pacific coast are entitled to better treatment from this government than the imposition of a 5 per cent excise tax when such commodities as ice cream and fancy biscuits are placed on the free list.
An hon. gentleman asked me a moment ago if I was in favour of reducing the duty on gasoline engines. I expressed my view on that subject a few days ago in this House when I voted for a reduction of customs duties on motor trucks and automobiles. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that we must have in this country a fair measure of protection, but when there is too great a spread between the cost to the manufacturer and the price to the consumer, then I think we have a right to ask for a reduction. As I say, I did vote for a reduction in the duties on motor trucks and automobiles, which are much needed in our country where we have to travel in many cases great distances from railways in order to get our produce on the market. But unfortunately very few hon. members to your right who come from the Maritime provinces, Mr. Speaker, saw fit to vote for that reduction, although on all1 occasions they have proclaimed themselves as extreme free traders.
The people of this country did expect from this government, and will expect from any government, that sufficient protection be given against the importations of agricultural and vegetable products from the United States which enter into direct competition with our own produce. I need not labour that point; the hon. member for Fort William and Rainy River (Mr. Manion) dealt with it yesterday afternoon. Reference to the trade statistics published under the direction of the Minister of Trade and Commerce will show that for a period of nine months in 1922 the imports of agricultural and vegetable products from the United States were valued at $53,000,000 odd; in 1923, $57,000,000 odd; in 1924, $59,000,000 odd. During the same nine months we imported fruits to the value of $19,344,000 while the export to the United States was valued at only $687,000. We find to-day that hundreds of farmers in this country are unable to market their potatoes, their potatoes are decaying in their cellars; and that unless the market is revived-and the chances are not in that direction-there will be a total loss of the potato crop of 1924 before the summer is over. No hon. member of this House, no sane man in this country, will say that the potatoes or vegetables which came into Canada from the United States in December, 1924, were early vegetables or early potatoes; yet in that month 63,444 bushels of potatoes were imported from
The Budget-Mr. Doucet

the United States into Canada. In that same month the exports from Canada were 22,311 bushels; and these, Mr. Speaker, were for seed purposes, I venture to say that not a bushel of that total was used for table consumption in the United States. And in the month of January of this year, while our farmers were looking north, south, east and west for markets, and while enormous quantities of potatoes were in the cellars awaiting a market, there was an importation of over 50,000 bushels of potatoes from the United States, our exports in the same period consisting of 2,197 bushels. It can be seen, Sir, what a great handicap there is in connection with the marketing of our potatoes, because the customs tariff against United States potatoes coming into this country is only something like two-thirds of the customs tariff on Canadian potatoes going across the border to the south.
Now, while I have some other figures in connection with the agricultural industry, I do not intend to labour the question very long. The value of live horses imported from the United States in the year 1924 exceeded $1,750,000, and the value of the export was $232,000. Of salt pork, a product which we can produce (to advantage in this country with benefit to the whole population, the import was valued at $1,288,418 and the export at $5,377. We can produce in this country all the eggs we need for our own purposes; take away the handicap against Canadian poultry to-day and you will find that a sufficient number of farmers will go into that business to make it productive and profitable and to make it unnecessary to import foreign eggs for table use throughout Canada. Of eggs, the import in 1924 was valued at practically $2,000,000-to be precise, $1,951,477; and the export was valued at $51,898. These figures show conclusively that the agricultural population of this Dominion are not getting justice at the hands of the present government; and if future governments should do likewise I would say the same thing. With our farming population, a hardy and industrious people, engaged in mixed farming and working a very fertile soil, we should be able to provide, and we do provide, sufficient quantities of these commodities to meet the needs of our own population without having to import them from other countries, and that at a lower rate of duty than is imposed upon similar commodities going from Canada across the line.


Mr. LOVIE:: In regard to the importation of live horses to which my hon. friend refers,

can he say whether they were breeding stock, or what they were?


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: No, I did not go into
that. With regard to the importation of horses, it struck me as rather funny, if I may use the expression, when the hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Motherwell) stated in this House that people had gone from Ontario to the prairie provinces to gather together numbers of horses to be shipped to the Maritime provinces and Quebec, in that way competing with those who raise horses in the Maritimes, and that in order to supply the rest of the Dominion they were importing ten times the value of horses from American territory.
Now may I speak for a moment of conditions in the Maritimes, as far as the development of natural resources is concerned? In order to lay a foundation for the few remarxs I have to make, I have simply to quote from the statement of Hon. E. H. Armstrong, Liberal premier of the province of Nova Scotia, who when presenting his case before this government said in part:
The allied coal and steel industries of Nova Scotia have been for some years in a depressed condition. At the present time unemployment and consequent distress among those dependent upon the industries for Hvelihood is more serious than in any recent period.
Further on he stated:
At no previous time has employment been so scarce and insecure, the future so unpromising, and the industrial community so discouraged as at this date. Faced with a disappearing livelihood large numbers of skilled artisans may be forced to leave Nova Scotia unless relief is forthcoming.
That was the basis of the argument which the hon. premier of the .province of Nova Scotia placed before this government. He went further. In order to relieve the situation, in order to remedy existing conditions in the province of Nova Scotia, which conditions also exist, to a smaJller degree in the other provinces which are directly interested in the welfare and industrial prosperity of Nova Scotia, Premier Armstrong asked for a revision of the customs tariff on iron and steel and their products, in which consideration would be given to the difficulties now hampering the steel works in Nova Scotia. His representations included the following: the lower ad valorem effect of the specific duties on semi-finished steel that has been brought about by increased selling prices; the numerous exemption clauses in the existing steel tariff; application of the higher rates of duty now provided by the customs tariff upon rolled sections and steel plates that now are admitted into Canada under the lower scale

The Budget-Mr. Doucet
of duty, and a provision for protection against the importation of iron and steel from countries with a depreciated currency.
Now why did Premier Armstrong ask for a revision of the duties in connection with the iron and steel industry? I find that in the year 1924 there were importations of iron and its products, including pig iron, ingots, billets, castlings, forgings, 'steel rails, rods, farm implements, small hardware, and other machinery excluding farm machinery, to a total value of $117,291,590, and with an exportation of $5,843,758. Now all those items which I have mentioned are manufactured and produced in this Dominion. All the semi-finished products of iron and steel can be produced, and have been produced, in the steel works at Sydney, in that industry which consumes the greater .portion of the output of bituminous coal of the mining sections of Cape Breton and eastern. Nova Scotia. Premier Armstrong had reasons to appeal to this government for a revision of the customs duties in connection with that industry. But what did he get?
Premier Armstrong also asked for a revision of the customs duties on slack coal and bituminous run of mine coal. It is true, the budget proposes an increase of 36 cents of duty on slack bituminous coal. Dissecting that resolution to place it in concrete form, let me say that this government has increased the customs duty on 20 per cent on the imports of coal and has decreased the duty om 80 per cent of the imports. So much so, that the hon. member! for Cape Breton South and Richmond (Mr. Carroll) speaking in this House a few days ago, quoted from, the Ottawa Citizen statements of, coal and fuel dealers in this city, who said that the tariff arrangements would not cause any hardship, and the hon. member himself stated that the householders would be benefited thereby, because run of mine coal, which is being used in the homes, is subject to a reduction of 3 cents per ton, while there is an increased duty of 36 cents on bituminous slack. Let me point out, however, that newspaper reports have given us the information that the American railways are proposing, and have made application to Washington, to have the transportation rate on bituminous slack reduced by 36 cents per ton in order to face the situation created by the budget of this Dominion. So it is evident that the slack coal industry of the Maritime provinces is not going to benefit one iota by the increase in the tariff proposals of this budget. On the other hand, it will
suffer because there is a reduction in the duty on bituminous run of mine coal.


Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: Would the hon. member be good enough to tell the House what he thinks of the drawback of 99 per cent of coal imported for conversion into coke?


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: Yes; I find that tariff item 1049 provides for a withdrawal of 99 per cent customs duty on bituminous coal when imported1 for the purpose of manufacture into coke. The hon. member for Cape Breton South and Richmond praised the government for bringing down legislation providing means for the establishment of a coke industry in this country. Surely he did not expect us to be so gullible as that. Why, the government can bring down all the legislation they want, they can employ all the law clerks of this House or of this country to prepare legislation, but if they allow a drawback of 99 per cent of the duty on bituminous coal that is imported for the purpose of converting it into coke, I say here and now, and I defy contradiction, that the coal mines of Cape Breton are not going to supply any more coal to the central provinces for manufacture into coke.


Joseph Archambault: What would my hon. friend suggest as a measure of relief?


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: I am going to suggest the
measure of relief I would apply to the coal situation in Cape Breton and Nova Scotia in a very few words, and when I speak of the coal situation in Nova Scotia, I am possibly in a unique position in that I did work in the coal mines of Cape Breton for some time. I have lived in the shacks spoken of by the hon. member for Southeast Grey (Miss Mac-phail), and I know conditions as they have been in Nova Scotia. I know what conditions must be now from the conditions that have prevailed in the last three years in the bituminous coal industry in Nova Scotia. In my opinion, the proper remedy would be to place an ad valorem or specific duty on bituminous coal of all kinds, comparable with the ad valorem duty imposed in 1907. My hon. friend knows what that means. There was a specific duty of 53 cents per ton when bituminous run of mine coal was worth $1.14 per ton. To-day that same coal is worth $3.92 per ton, and there is a specific duty of 50 cents per ton. So this government, instead of increasing the duty on bituminous run of mine coal, has actually decreased1 it by 3 cents a ton. That is one proposition. A second proposition would be that, instead
The Budget-Mr. Doucet

of allowing anthracite dust and anthracite screenings to come into this country free of customs duty for the purpose of supplying our manufacturers, the same rate of duty should be imposed against anthracite dust as against bituminous coal. Nobody can dispute that proposition. It was advocated in the brief presented by Premier Armstrong to this government, and it was emphasized1 by the representatives of every board of trade in the Maritime provinces who accompanied the Premier of Nova Scotia when he interviewed the cabinet. What is regarded as the only remedy for the existing situation is to place the ad valorem duty on bituminous coal on a parity with what it was in 1907 and impose a similar duty on anthracite coal dust and screenings.


Joseph Archambault: Would that not
have the effect of increasing the price of domestic coal?


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: Anthracite coal dust and
anthracite screenings are not used for domestic purposes.


Mr. PARENT:: Does the hon. gentleman
mean to say that there are no industries in this country that are using anthracite coal or anthracite screenings?


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: I do not. What I stated
was that anthracite dust and anthracite screenings are not being used for domestic purposes-that is they are not being used in the household, they are used in industries. If my hon. friends from Ontario and Quebec expect the coal mining and allied industries of Nova Scotia to succeed they must be willing to grant a reasonable measure of protection, otherwise we cannot have conditions as they should be in this country. I will go further and say that I believe the time has arrived when, if we wish to develop an all-British-Canadian fuel policy for Canada, we should impose a reasonable customs tariff on anthracite importations from the States.


Joseph Archambault: On any kind of
coal?


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: On any kind of anthracite coal.


Joseph Archambault: That is, for
domestic purposes?


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: Yes.


Joseph Archambault: That would increase the price, would it not?


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: A large percentage of the
population of the Maritime provinces do not 
know what anthracite coal is. They are using an excellent product; Inverness run of mine; run of mine from the Drummond collieries; and run of mine from the old Sydney collieries. These form a very good fuel indeed for domestic purposes. Now I submit that in view of the deposits of lignite and semi-anthracite that we have in this country, in view of the possibility of developing the coke industry in Canada, and in view of the fine quality of bituminous run of mine that we have in certain portions of ths Maritime provinces, it is about time, if we wish to see those sections of the country prosper, that a policy should be adopted which would prevent the importation of such large quantities of coal from the United States. In 1924 the Canadian National Railways bought 11,592,362 tons of bituminous coal for that system whilst from Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Alberta they bought the insignificant quantity-I call it insignificant as compared with the importaltionb from the United States-of 7,914,943 tons. Think of it-seven million tons bought in Canada as compared with practically twelve million tons bought from the United States for the purpose of the Canadian National railways; and our coal miners in the Maritime provinces are only working two and three days a week! Is it any wonder that we have such conditions in Nova Scotia, conditions previously unknown in the history of the coal industry of the Maritime provinces? This large amount of coal is brought in from the United States to supplant our own products, and1 our coal miners are only able to get two and three days' work a week in their own collieries. I submit that the policy which I have explained would be a fair and reasonable policy to adopt if we wish this country to go ahead and prosper. Let there be a spirit of give and take in connection with this as in connection with other matters. Geographically situated as we are we must pursue policies calculated to bring prosperity to the whole country, otherwise we shall never secure that unity for which we are striving. I could go on and quote figures to show the quantity of bituminous slack, bituminous run of mine, anthracite coal and1 anthracite Screenings imported into Canada in the year 1924. It is appalling. We are more than ever impressed with the necessity of restricting these imports when we realize the large deposits of coal which we have in the provinces of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Alberta, and remember the fact that our coal miners are only getting such a limited amount of employment. How can conditions be other-

The Budget-Mr. Doucet
wise than they are when we allow foreign coal to take the place of the domestic products in the Canadian market? I conclude my remarks on the question of coal with this statement: the tariff proposals submitted by the Acting Minister of Finance, in my humble opinion, are not going to be of benefit to the bituminous coal industry of this Dominion to the extent of one iota. It is true the customs duty is increased on 20 per cent of the importations, but it is reduced in the case of 80 per cent. Furthermore the American railways will reduce their rates so as to enable the coal operators of the United States to compete with Canadian coal producers.


Joseph Archambault: No such thing.
Is my hon. friend in a position to state that the American railways will reduce their rates? That is only rumour.


Mr. HANSON:: They are going to try it.


Joseph Archambault: Let my hon. friend be fair and state it is only rumour and not fact.


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: The hon. member for
Chambly-Vercheres knows I am always fair.


Joseph Archambault: I know that, but
I want you to continue to be fair.


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: When I state that the
American railways are making application to Washington for authority to reduce the transportation rates on coal I state what is contained in the press reports, and therefore I am on pretty safe ground. Not only is the coal industry in the Maritime provinces suffering from the budget reductions of last year, but the steel industry has practically ' been put out of business for a period of eight months. In proof of that statement I need only quote from the monthly report of the production of iron and steel in Canada issued in January, 1925, and published by authority of Hon. Thomas A. Low, Minister of Trade and Commerce-surely that should be sufficient authority for the statement. In that report I read that the production of iron- basic, foundry and malleable-in blast furnaces in Canada in .the year 1923 was over
880,000	tons; in the year 1924 the production was 593,024 tons of iron. The total steel ingots and steel castings production for 1923 was 884,770 and for the year 1924 it was 650,690 tons. This will give the House an idea of the reduction of production in the steel industry of this Dominion, which reduction was practically all in that section of the steel works of Sydney. There are fifteen blast furnaces in Canada, and in the month
of January there were three of them in operation. This statement is prepared by the Statistical branch of the Department of Trade and Commerce. In resuming, speaking of the United States trade, this report says:
In the United States the month of January showed the greatest production since March, 1924, and marked an increase of about twelve per cent over December, which in turn showed an increase over November of fourteen per cent. The average daily production was 108,621 tons, an increase of 13,082 tons per day over December. For the third consecutive month the net gain in active furnaces was twenty-three-
That is twenty-three new furnaces went into operation in the United States-
-making a total of one hundred and seven new furnaces blown in since-
Mark the words-
-since the upward trend started in July last.
Just corresponding with the date that the reductions in the customs duties were made applicable to the semi-finished products of iron and steel coming from the steel plants of the United States.
I do not intend to delay the House this afternoon in connection with the railways, but I see that there has been a reduction of 5,938 railway employees between the years 1923 and 1924. Those are figures given by returns to the House, as hon. gentlemen will find in Hansard of this year, page 1288. I should like to ask the Minister of Railways how many of those were officials. I suppose he would answer that it is not in the public interest of the railways to give that information. Every time in the last two sessions that we have asked for information in connection with officials, knowing as we did that they are constantly adding high-salaried officials to the staff of the Canadian National Railways while at the same time decreasing the number of employees among those who were in overalls, we have been met with the answer that it is not in the public interest that that information be given to the country. Why not? Do the government or the railways fear that if they give the salary of one man as 125,000 the Canadian Pacific Railway or the American railways would come in and try to 4 p.m. get him, at an increase in salary?
I doubt if any American railways would dream of offering any increase in the present salaries of the officials, because they are getting the highest salaries going. Were I to speak further on the railway question as it affects the Maritime provinces, I would only have to quote a speech made in this House in the dying days of the session of 1921, which hon. members will find at page 4561 of the revised Hansard, when the hon.
The Budget-Mr. Doucet

member for Westmoreland (Mr. Copp), the present Secretary of State, spoke and covered some few pages of Hansard, dealing with conditions of the railways in the Maritime provinces, and after having quoted those remarks I would say "amen," and would state that every word uttered by him was applicable today. My hon. friend is a member of the government to-day. Why can he not have those grievances remedied? In those days he spoke loudly and at length from every housetop, I might say, stating that the best men were taken away from the city of Moncton and transported to Toronto. It is true that in those days a few officials or heads of departments were transferred from Moncton to Toronto, at an increase of salary. They were being given a promotion, and while we regretted that they sent some of our best talent to Toronto, we gloried in the fact that our loss was their gain, and that while they were leaving the Maritimes, they were going to a place where they were getting larger and better remuneration. What do we find to-day? In the spring of 1923 the present board removed from Moncton 450 odd families of men receiving from $95 to $130 a month. They were packed1 up bag and baggage and sent to the city of Montreal on the plea of economy, with what result? Men who had their homes in the city of Moncton, and who had everything that was near and dear to them in the Maritime provinces had to go to Montreal or hand in their resignation or be dismissed. With what result? They had hardly been there five weeks when the reclassification of office employees in those offices was made, and men who had left headquarters at Moncton in the Maritime provinces where they were receiving a salary of $130 a month, are working to-day for $95 a month or a reduction of about $35 a month. Those are the conditions put into effect by the new railway board. Some of them did not accept the reclassification, left the railway and are pursuing other occupations in the Maritime provinces and some in the territory to the south of us.
During the course of this debate it has been stated that a large population has been immigrating to this country from the country to the south of us. I have statistics which I have taken from the Veteran, from an article headed " Bread and butter versus patriotism ". I do not propose to read this article, but I want to quote figures taken from reliable sources to show that while the total immigration from European countries and the United States in the eight months ending August 31, 1924 was 100,599, during the same

period, according to United States figures, 115,042 Canadians left this country to go to the country to the south of us. We have Canadian figures which show that 23,861 Canadians, in five months, April, May, June, July and August, returned from the United States to live in this country. What do the American figures show. Instead of 23,861, we find the American figures are 1,128, and those figures, Mr. Speaker, are pretty nearly correct. There is not a member in this House who knows of any large influx of people from the United States; and the great majority, unfortunately, of those who have come back are men who were compelled to come back, and who are back in this country in a worse condition to-day than they were when they left Canada three or four years ago. They left the country within the last three years after selling all their household goods, their farming implements and their live stock and they went to the United States to spend those proceeds along with the earnings they made in that country; and1 now they are returning to us to-day in a poorer condition financially than' when they left. Fortunately, the number is not as large as the statistics of this department show.
Before I conclude I have a few words to say regarding the conditions that exist to-day iD the mining sections of eastern Nova Scotia and I believe I have laid the groundwork for a satisfactory discussion of this question. Indeed1, I am no stranger to that part of the country. The 'hon. member for Southeast Grey (Miss Macphail) was chastised in this House because as 'an outsider she went down to the province of Nova Scotia and after an investigation dared to report conditions as she found them there. I was bom in that province; I worked in the coal mines of Cape Breton and lived amongst the miners of that section; I also worked in the steel works at Sydney. So that I know all about Dominion Iron & Steel, about Besco, and about all the other matters that are mentioned in that connection; and when I undertake to reply to the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff) I do not think that any hon. gentleman will accuse me of saying anything detrimental to the province of Nova Scotia. Why, it was on February 24 last that the Minister of Labour himself (Mr. Murdock) told us in this House that Cape Breton was suffering from a canker; the Minister of Labour, who is always gesticulating on questions of this kind, described that part of the Dominion as a canker. But what did he do to relieve the situation? All he was prepared to do was to feed the suffering people 'bit by bit with the British

The Budget-Mr. Doucet
North America Act. Well, there are very bad conditions in that section of Nova Scotia to-day, and while it as true that we Nova Scotians are a proud people I would remind the House that hunger knows no pride. And when people see thousands of young ones at the point of starvation it is only right that the facts should be placed before the people of this country so that some relief may be obtained. The hon. member for Southeast Grey was rather rebuked because she ventured to report upon conditions as she found them. I do not say, that she adopted the best possible course; but with the sympathy characteristic of her sex she determined, on reading the reports in the press, to look into the conditions for herself. And from the statements that have been made by some of the highest authorities in the Maritime provinces I believe that the hon. member's report is altogether according to the facts. The Roman Catholic Bishop of Antigonish, the Rev. Dr. John Morrison, on March 15 last issued an appeal to his people for relief for the suffering children of Cape Breton island and' vicinity; Archbishop Worrell, of Halifax, also made an appeal on March 23; and the Sydney Ministerial Association, representing several protestant denominations of Nova Scotia, appealed similarly on March 22. So that my hon. friend from Southeast Grey is in very good company. A Canadian press despatch of March 26 reads:
In the Glace Bay and Dominion No. 6 areas, 2,727 families representing approximately 13,000 people were supplied with food to-day. This represents about 40 per cent of the distribution for the whole district.
Then we have an appeal from Rev. Dr. John Macintosh, a gentleman whom I know well, the Moderator of the Presbyterian' Synod of the Maritime provinces. He says:
The Presbyterian people have always been noted for their readiness to hear the cry of the destitute' in any land, and I am sure they will not turn a deaf ear to the cry of their fellow citizens, especially of women and children, when the appeal is made to them.
Of course Dr. Macintosh had not read' the speech of the hon. member for Lunenburg when he said that. There is also a report from Miss S. Gold, social service worker for the Canadian Brotherhood of Railway Employees; after a personal tour of investigation she reported on conditions on March 29. There is also a report from the Central Relief (committee of Glace Bay as follows:
We greatly appreciate the generosity of the Canadian public, and on behalf of the poverty-stricken women and children hope for its continuance. Cash contributions for the purchase of foodstuffs are of paramount importance.-(Signed) Rev. M. A. MacAdam,
P.P.; Rev. A. M. McLeod, Glace Bay Relief Committee.-Canadian Press Despatch, March 26.
These are the authorities on the situation that exists in Glace Bay and in the mining districts generally, and in view of the reports that we have had from them all I think it hardly becomes the hon. member for Lunenburg to criticize those who are applying for relief throughout the Dominion in behalf of these suffering people. It is enough to make one's heart bleed to know that there may be in that part of the country someone near and dear to him at the point of starvation. When, therefore, kind-hearted workers ask for relief they should be given something more than the British North America Act and statistics; certainly they should not be castigated on the floor of this House by an hon. member who knows no more about Glace Bay than, I know about astronomy. Why did not the government and our friends opposite call upon the members representing that section of the country, who are thoroughly conversant with the facts as they exist, to reply to the hon. member for Southeast Grey, if they thought that her report of conditions down there was not altogether correct? They did not do that because they knew that those hon. members would not stoop to give anything but the facts; and they know that the facts as reported by the hon. member aTe absolutely correct, notwithstanding anything the hon. member for Lunenburg may say. The hon. member (Mr. Duff) in the course of his speech told his own leader the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) that he had no business to contribute S100 to the relief of the poor in Glace Bay, and he informed the people of Ontario generally and the citizens of Ottawa that it was just as well for them to mind their own business; they had no right to interfere with affairs down there. And while the hon. gentleman was speaking thus to the House we find the central relief committee expressing the fear that unless they could get help from outside thousands upon thousands of young children would starve. Immediately, Mr. Speaker, the report was broadcast throughout that section by the Canadian Press that the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff) had stated on the floor of this House that conditions, while not ideal, were not very much worse than they were in the larger cities of the Dominion, the chairman and secretary of the Central Relief committee of the Glace Bay district Rev. M. A. MacAdam, parish priest, and Rev. A. M. McLeod, Presbyterian clergyman, of the town of Glace Bay

by the way every time the
The Budget-Mr. Doucet

hon. member for Lunenburg mentioned Glace Bay he called it the "city" of Glace Bay; in Cape Breton we are proud to call it " the biggest town in Canada," for it has the largest population of any of our incorporated towns- immediately, I say, the chairman and secretary of the Central Relief committee sent this message:
Only relief from outside sources will save thousands of our Cape Breton people who are in dire need and on the verge of starvation. Far from resenting outside assistance, we appeal for it and hope it will be speedily given us by a generous Canadian people. We would welcome unbiased investigators to visit us and ascertain for themselves.
That is a direct answer to the remarks made by the hon. member for Lunenburg. True, he represents a constituency on the western shores of Nova Scotia, it is a west-shore constituency and he is not conversant with conditions in the mining section as are the hon. members for Cumberland (Mr. Logan), Inverness (Mr. Chisholm), Cape Breton North and Victoria (Mr. Kelly), Cape Breton South and Richmond (Mr. Carroll and Mr. Kyte), and the hon. Minister of National Defence (Mr. Macdonald). I have another telegram dated Halifax, April 2, and received last night:
Respectfully suggest that you refute statements made by Nova Scotia member yesterday regarding conditions in colliery towns. Had it not been for outside relief during the past three weeks hundreds would have died of starvation.
Now, the conditions are such that even if an amicable agreement is reached it will be some time before those in distress will be able to dispense with outside relief. I have not spoken of the trouble betwen the miners and Besco. I have worked with the miners and for the company, and I could say something very illuminating on both sides of the case, but I will not enter upon the merits now. Let us hope that the parties will come to an amicable agreement. But in the meantime there are thousands of people in that district in great need of relief, and let not the remarks of the hon. member for Lunenburg prevent any charitably inclined citizens from sending whatever measure of relief they can afford to give to the distressed population. It must not be forgotten that for the last three years the coal miners of that section have worked only two and three days a week. My hon. friend from Lunenburg may say: "Oh, if my people were getting the same wages as the coal miners, they would own their homes and have bank accounts." Yes, I admit the wage is satisfactory for six days a week, but when the miners have to feed and clothe their families for the whole week on what they earn during the two or three days they 
are at work, their remuneration is a very small pittance indeed.
I submit, Mr. Speaker, that we should send relief, and I think this government, which has been so generous in the past in assisting the people of Japan, China and other countries by substantial grants of money, might very well do something for the relief of suffering Canadians. I go further, Sir. Some of the people in that section are placing the blame on the government. I admit at once that they do not blame the government for the trouble between Besco and the miners. I think this parliament acted wisely in refusing to grant a charter to the British Empire Steel Corporation. Everyone knows that the corporation secured its charter from the legislature of Nova Scotia. I do not propose to discuss the charter; but I do say that the policy of this government in reducing the customs tariff on the iron and steel produced in the steel works at Sydney, which industry consumes the greater portion of the bituminous coal mined in the Cape Breton section, have placed the coal operators under a serious handicap, for without the markets, the coal areas cannot be developed and the miners cannot be given steady employment. Hence we have the condition of uncertain employment. In view of those facts, I submit that the government would be well advised to make a reasonable contribution to the relief fund to tide over the people until such time as a satisfactory arrangement may be arrived at between the coal miners and the British Empire Steel Corporation.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, let me say that we require more protection for the industries of the Maritime provinces, and that to this end there must be effected a readjustment of the duties on bituminous run of mine coal, and that the budget resolution for the drawback of 99 per cent duty on bituminous coal imported for coke making should be withdrawn, otherwise what little benefit is given by the increased duty on slack coal will be entirely wiped out. Given proper protection this industry would prosper. In the industrial sections of Nova Scotia there is a population of about 250,000 people, and I venture to say that if they were working six days a week at a satisfactory wage you would have a contented people-a people be it remembered, composed of the descendants of those highland Scotch, of those who came from Green Erin, of the descendants of the United Empire Loyalists, and, last but not least, of the descendants of that great tragedy of 1755.

The Budget-Mr. Denis (St. Denis)


Mr. ARTHUR DENIS (St. Denis) (Translation) :: Mr. Speaker, before broaching the
subject matter of the budget, I want to congratulate the hon. member who has just taken his seat (Mr. Doucet) for his magnificent address in favour of our beautiful French language. He graciously offers us his generous co-operation and I extend to him my compliments. I am not one of those who think that the French language has received all the honours which are due to it, however, it pleases me to note, as the hon. member for Kent has stated himself, that under the present government there has been a great improvement toward giving to the French language a more conspicuous place in the affairs of the country. We have not completed the task, but we shall continue to work together to claim our rights, and before long, under the realm of justice of which we can now boast, we shall receive, I am well confident, full and entire satisfaction.
My hon. friend introduced some spice in his speech, but this must not astonish us; our good friends should not have quarreled with him, for, after all, he belongs to the Tory party, although he refuses to recognize the name; we, therefore, could not expect that he would express himself otherwise. The records of history have been handed down to us, and for a reason; we should draw beneficial lessons from them. Let us not forget, however, that although we must be firm and tenacious in our claims, we must act in a decent manner, without having recourse to vulgar expedient; which simply means that we must be dignified, in words as well as in deeds, and justice and common sense will end by exerting their beneficent influence.
With reference to the budget as brought down, the hon. Acting Minister of Finance (Mr. Robb) is entitled to our most sincere congratulations. We awaited this budget with some feeling of anxiety, as we feared that the reductions which were adopted last session, regarding the tariff on raw materials and the sale tax on products of first necessity, would show a great decrease in the revenues of the country. Fortunately, however, this reduction which favoured the masses, was not an impediment to the success of the country's administration.
The revenues, this year, are somewhat smaller; but this decrease was partly compensated by the economy applied to the expenditure, without, however, being detrimental to the development of our young country. It is with a feeling of joy and confidence that we learned from the hon. Acting Minister of Finance, that the budget of this year showed
a favourable balance of $1,832,000 over the cost of the administration.
Since the outset of this debate certain criticisms were made by the loyal opposition, but they were not of a serious nature. Consequently, the government should not pay any more attention to them than it is necessary; but it should continue its ascending march in the path of progress and good feeling, a path which it has always followed since it has been at the helm of the affairs of this country. We might, perhaps, take our good friends the Conservatives more seriously, if we had not seen them at work from 1911 to
1921.	How can they decently preach economy, knowing that during their administration, they . had ruined the country, and what is worse destroyed the good feeling which existed between the races and classes of the Canadian community? We can recall that in 1911, when they assumed power, our fair Canada enjoyed great prosperity and we were happy and content to live on its soil; however, after a few years of their regime, we were thrown into the greatest distress. Our debt increased considerably, deficits followed favourable balances which we had under the wise administration of our great leader, Sir Wilfrid Laurier, and, the unavoidable consequence was that very heavy taxes were levied on the people to meet the obligations incurred and provide for the present needs of the country. Nobody was spared, if we except a few large profiteers who were friends of the government. We were living in a peaceful quietude, but war broke out and spread terror and desolation in our homes. More than that, under the cloak of false patriotism, these good Tories found means, to satisfy their destructive designs, of awakening certain prejudices almost extinct, under the previous Liberal government; only a few of these petty factions remained and their days were numbered; ridicule and their insignificance would have in the end made them entirely disappear to the great satisfaction of everybody.
I do not wish, Mr. Speaker, to criticize the expenditure which the war was responsible for, but I cannot help telling them, together with Sir Arthur Currie and Mr. Beatty, the president of the Canadian Pacific Railway, that they showed poor judgment. The 100,000 conscripts that they sent overseas, to help the cause of the allies, should' have never left this country. It was a useless expense, but I may add very useful from the viewpoint of our over-zealous Imperialists whose sole ambition was to enrich themselves and to insult those who differed from their views. That was part of their work. I could
1842	COMMONS
The Budget-Mr. Denis (St. Denis)
continue and give further instances, but I shall not do so; these recollections are too heart-breaking to all Canadians who love their country and wish to see it rich and prosperous. All countries have/ had their period of greatness and downfall, of prosperity and depression, and for us Canadians, from 1911 to 1921, was the most depressing period of our history. The great culprits are those who, to-day, are bold enough to rise and blame the government for not having practised1 economy. Hon. gentlemen, of the opposition, should not delude themselves into thinking that the public gulp these things down! You may drag your hearse across the whole country, even through Montreal with the Hon. Monty and company, the people are wise as to your frankness and sincerity and they have not forgotten your great success in the administration of public affairs.
Coming back to the budget speech itself, it is pleasing to note that the country, under the wise administration of the present government is from year to year making rapid progress. Our trade, this year, with the other nations, once more attests a favourable balance of $263,414,526. With the British Empire, we can show a favourable balance of $243,000,000. It is only with the United States that the trade balance is against us. However, every year, this adverse balance is getting smaller, and we can hope that before long we shall also have with them a favourable trade balance, notwithstanding their high protective tariff.
What a joke it is to contend that upholding that high protective tariff is the salvation of the country. I think it is more a clever trick to fool the workman by promising them that protection will give them employment, with more remunerative salaries. Never in the history of our country were the workmen happier and more prosperous than under the Laurier-Fielding tariff, which was not a high protective tariff, but one for revenue only. I admit, however, that there are industries which need some protection, but this protection must not hinder competition which is necessary to maintain the quality of the products and fair prices for the consumer.
The depression which, at present, exists in a few of our industries, is not caused by the lack of protection, but rather by the unbounded ambition of some manufacturers who wish to make too great a profit, and1 this without any compensation to the workman whom they intentionally allow bo suffer to satisfy their greed for gold. Take, for instance, the manufacturer of boots and shoes.

I do not accuse them all as I know there are a great number who are satisfied with the present conditions. For the part year, these manufacturers are carrying on an active campaign, in the press of the country, against the government, blaming it far not giving them more protection and state that their industry is being ruined.
If we look up the official figures supplied by the Trade and Commerce Statistical Bureau, we see that in 1924, the imports on boots and shoes amounted to $2,174,023, or 1,043,262 pairs; in 1923, the imports amounted to $1,740,351 or 704,762 pairs; in 1922, $1,670,858; but in 1921, under the administration of our good friends on the opposite side of * the House, the imports amounted to $2,993,730, consequently $819,708 more than in 1924. It is only within the last year that our manufacturers complain. Do you not think, Sir, that they had far more reason to comphin in 1921 than to-day? It is the change of government, which, I believe, is the cause of their complaints. Any reason will do, what they are after, is the government's scalps, to satisfy their political ambition.
I shall give you further figures: In 1924, $64,061,148 worth of boots and shoes were produced in this country or 32,204,943 pairs; in 1923, $60,484,449 or 29,271,183 pairs. You will note that, in 1924, more boots and shoes were manufactured than in 1923. I could give you the figures for 1922, but I think that the House is quite satisfied that the manufacturers of boots and shoes show bad faith, and I shall try to prove it now by their exports. In 1924, they exported for $2,283,609 worth of goods; in 1923 for $1,513,046; in 1922, for $1,009,198; in 1921, for $3,993,730. By comparing the imports with the exports, we find that, in 1924, they had a favourable balance of $109,586; in 1923, an adverse balance of $227,305; in 1922, also an adverse balance of $661,640; but in 1921. the last year of the Conservative government, they had a favourable balance of $62,563. This balance was not, however, as high as that of the year 1924 which, as I have just stated, was $109,-5S6, or a difference of $47,023.
This only goes to show that these gentlemen aire greedy and the more we shall feed them, the more ,their stomach will call far food which they hope to get through protection. However, I see that the government is not disposed to supply this food; and with reason, it rather prefers to help the consumers. There are other industries whose conditions are identical to those of the boot and shoe manufacture, and who claim a higher protective tariff, but I shall mot

The Budget-Mr. Logan
enumerate them as I do not wish to impose on the good nature of the House. Before closing my remarks, I should like to give a few advices of a nature to ease the task of the government in regard to the decreasing of the administration cost. I trust that they will be well received.
What I would recommend to the government is not the reduction of ijhe parliamentary indemnity, such as was moved by a few hon. members of this House, because the indemnity we receive is certainly not too high for a member who attends regularly the sittings of the House, and who is not content with only putting in an appearance when large interests are involved or threatened; but what I would like to see is the abolishing of the Civil Service Commission which, each year,' costs the country the nice sum of $194,580.40, an amount which would help to pay the yearly deficits of our National railways and merchant marine. It is well to observe, by the way, that the government has reduced the cost of that service by more than $100,000 since the year 1921-22. Neither do I wish to criticize the commissioners for their work; but looking at it from the point of view of usefulness, I state that this commission is a luxury that the country is unable to put up with. Moreover, no proof exists that, since the establishment of the commission, the service in the various departments has been more efficient and that the country has benefited proportionately to the cost of this commission. It perhaps served a purpose, under the previous government, owing to their incompetence and the habit contracted of indulging in patronage, however, under the present government which includes the best men of the 'country, it serves no purpose.
Another matter to which my attention was drawn in the budget, is the duty being levied on electric power. I am very conservative so far as our natural resources are concerned, but not in politics. I should like to see them developed for the benefit of our people only, and utilized on Canadian soil so as to feed our present-day industries and those that might come later on to establish themselves in this country. However, I do not find fault with this imposing of a duty, but I should not like to see this privilege to export power prolonged more than one year. Further, I do not want to see these companies export power to the detriment of the Canadian consumer by demanding from the latter a higher price per horse-power, as this is happening in the country, at present. I hope the government will take the necessary measures to prevent these companies from exploiting the Canadian consumer for the benefit of foreigners who come and take our electric power to meet the requirements of their industries.
I shall close my remarks, Mr. Speaker, by assuring the government of my entire confidence in them, if they continue, as they have done heretofore, to govern the country, first for the people, and lastly for the magnates. Let us help our farmers, our producers and our consumers by lowering the cost of raw material, let us facilitate the marketing of their products by giving them a fair transportation tariff, let us try to create new markets, and I feel confident that in following that policy we shall all be happy and content with living on the sacred soil of Canada.
Mr. HANCE J. LOGAN (Cumberland): On the 12th June last, this House expressed a desire, concurred in by leading members of all parties that the trade and other relations between Canada and the West Indies and other southern countries, should be investigated. On the 26th November an order in council was passed appointing me as a commissioner to proceed to the West Indies and other islands and lands in and about the Caribbean sea. In a letter from the Prime Minister I was also instructed as follows:
My colleagues and I would be pleased if you would convey to the governors and people of Bermuda, the British West Indies and British Guiana, a warm message of good-will and interest from the government and people of the Dominion of Canada. Would you kindly convey to the governments of the various Islands and of British Guiana, the cordial invitation of the Canadian government to attend a joint conference to be held at Ottawa in the spring of 1925, at a definite date to be agreed upon mutually, for the purpose of negotiating and concluding a new trade and transportation agreement between our respective countries. All further details of representation, scope of the conference, financial arrangements, etc., will be taken up by our officials upon intimation of the decision of the governments of Bermuda, the British West Indies and British Guiana, in this matter.
Will you kindly express to the various governments mentioned the sincere desire of the Canadian government that they may be able to co-operate with us in the manner suggested, and our assurance of a cordial reception to their delegates in this country.
After conferring with a number of boards of trade, West Indian merchants and firms in several cities and towns, I proceeded from Halifax on the 14th December last. Owing to most tempestuous weather, I met with a severe accident on board ship, which caused a delay of several days at Hamilton, Bermuda. In the eleven weeks I was away from Canada, I travelled by sea and land over ten thousand miles; was thirty-nine days at sea; visited seventeen countries, under eight different flags; met with the governing bodies; addressed the
The Budget-Mr. Logan

chambers of commerce, boards of trade, planters' and agricultural societies; and had an opportunity of discussing in private and public with legislators and other leading men in all walks of life in all these different lands. I was met with enthusiasm everywhere, and found a keen desire wherever I went for greater trade between our country and theirs. I also found, not only in foreign republics, but throughout the British West Indies, that, particularly since the war, the American nation has been making a determined drive to capture trade with these tropical countries. Everywhere I found American consular agents, viceconsuls and other representatives of the United States, all of whom are really trade agents, housed in splendid offices with efficient secretarial and other clerical staffs. I also found American commercial travellers hustling for trade. But in all the vast domain, where the total population amounts to some fourteen millions of people, and where the trade of the countries visited amounts to three hundred and seventy five millions of dollars annually- outside of Cuba, which has a vast trade, particularly with the United States of America -I found only two trade commissioners of Canada, each with a staff of one person, I met only two Canadian commercial travellers!
Let me give, in as few words as possible, a description of the countries I visited1 in company with Lieut.-Colonel Brown of the Canadian National Railways' staff as transportation adviser and Mr. H. C. Crowell, of Halifax, secretary, who were with me throughout the whole trip; and Mr. D. H. Ross, of the Trade and Commerce department, who was with me during part of the trip. We first visited Bermuda, which has been well-named the gem of the Atlantic ocean. The area of Bermuda is nineteen square miles, and the population 20,410. The imports and exports for the year 1923 were:
	Imports 1923	Exports 1923
	pounds	pounds
	sterling	sterling
Canada			40,160
United Kingdom..	. .. 708.413	450United States	. .. 913.576	125,035Other countries	.. 21.364	328,155Total	493,800
The principal articles imported are flour, oats-of which nearly 200,000 bushels last year came from Canada,-bran, hay,-of which about fifty thousand dollars' worth was from Canada,-lumber, principally from the United States; potatoes, ten thousand barrels from Canada and three thousand one hundred barrels from the United States; and 
whisky, 25,873 gallons from Canada, and from other countries 269,393 gallons.
In regard to exports to Canada, the figure is not large, being valued at about forty thousand pounds for the year 1923, of which something under four thousand pounds in value was produce or manufactures of the colony, the bulk being onions. Until very recently, nearly all the onions raised in Bermuda went to the United States; but now that that country has placed a heavy duty on onions, there should be large increases to the Canadian market.
The harbour of Hamilton, the capital of Bermuda, is small, but it has deep water and is well sheltered. It is approached by a long winding channel, which has docking space for three good-sized ships, along a straight quay wall. The passenger traffic in and out of Bermuda is very large, and, contrary to what is generally thought, it is fairly well sustained throughout the year. According to tourist statistics of the island in 1923, the following were the number of tourists monthly:
January	 2,239
February		3,273
March	 3,758
April	 2,613
May	 524
June	 1,262
July	 1,697
August	 2,524
September	 2,206
October	 2,315
November	 2,097
December	 2,253
Total for 1923	 26,761
In fact, Bermuda's prosperity depends almost entirely upon the tourist traffic, and every possible facility is provided to assist and encourage it. There is no doubt that if there were proper passenger steamers plying between Canada and Bermuda, a large part of the tourist traffic from this country, which at the present generally goes via New York, would be diverted to Canadian ports.
While I was on the island I was honoured with a seat in the legislature beside the Speaker; and among the items of expenditure which were passed was one for about $121,000 as a subsidy to a line from New York, while no subsidy is paid to any line to Canada. I think it is one of the duties of Canada as a British country, to endeavour to counteract, as far as possible, the American influence, which is very apparent to anyone visiting the island. Upon arrival, we were welcomed by a large delegation, among them being the Mayor of Hamilton, the President of the Chamber of Commerce, the Chairman of the

The Budget-Mr. Logan
Bermuda Development Board, and a number of other prominent citizens. During my stay, I had an opportunity of addressing many of the members of the Chamber of Commerce and the Bermuda Development Board. While the American influence, as I have said, is very strong, I am happy to say we have a number of very staunch friends in this island who desire better trade relations with Canada.
We arrived at the island of St. Christopher -better known as St. Kitts-on January 4. This island is in a group known as the Leeward Islands, which are divided between the British, French, Dutch and United States governments. The principal islands under British control are St. Christopher, Nevis, Antigua, Dominica and Montserrat. These form a crown colony under one Governor. The seat of government is St. Johns, Antigua; the other sections being governed by administrators subordinate to the Governor. There is also a General Legislative Council, composed of sixteen members appointed by the Governor. St. Christopher has an area of 68 square miles, and a population of 31,000. The principal port is Basseterre, with a population of about 10,000. The total trade for 1921 amounted to approximately $3,500,000. The principal exports are sugar, sea-island cotton, limes, tobacco and cocoa; but the largest export to Canada is sugar. There is one mill with an annual output of about 12,000 tons. St. Kitts and Antigua are ideal winter resorts. The weather is much warmer than in Bermuda. The islands are rich in historical lore, particularly Nevis, which is very near to St. Kitts. It was on this island-Nevis-that Captain Nelson, afterwards the great admiral of the British fleet was married.
The ship dropped anchor in the harbour of Basseterre at 8.30 a.m., and the Acting Administrator the Hon. H. M. Wigley came on board. During the day a meeting was held in the town, which I addressed. I met most of the leading men of the island, among them being Dr. Aitken, a brother of Lord Beaverbrook. The response to my address was delivered in a very eloquent manner, by Mr. P. Marshall, a clever coloured member of the Legislative and Executive Councils. A number of other leading men took part in the following discussion, ancludjing jthe president of the Agricultural Society. All of them strongly recommended the promotion of closer trade relations with Canada and the acceptance of Canada's invitation to a conference at Ottawa.
On January 5, we arrived in Antigua, and were met by a large delegation of prominent citizens, who extended a very cordial welcome. Antigua has an area of 108 square miles and a population of about 30,000. The principal port is St. Johns, with a population of about 8,000. The total trade of this island in 1921 was about $3,000,000. It is estimated that the sugar production of Antigua this year will amount to about 15,000 tons. In the days of Nelson, English harbour jan this island was the largest and best equipped naval dock in the West Indies. It was here that Nelson refitted his fleet before starting on the cruise that ended with the battle of Trafalgar. A great need of Antigua, as well as St. Kitts, is better hotel accommodation; and it was urged at the meetings which I addressed that, in connection with steamship service, there might be combined a plan or a system of building bungalow hotels. A resolution urging the acceptance of the Leeward Islands of our invitation.
Dominica has an area of 291 square miles and a population of 38,000. The imports of this island in 1922 were valued at about $800,000, and the exports at nearly the same amount.
Montserrat has an area of 32J square miles, with a population of 12,000. The principal town and port is Plymouth. The peculiarity of the people of this island is that while they are nearly all coloured, they speak with a decided Irish accent. Many years ago, an Irish regiment was stationed on this island. The principal products of Montserrat are sea-island cotton, limes, and lime juice.
From the point of view of natural beauty, the Leeward Islands are delightful. Their soils are fertile; and there can be no doubt that, with the expenditure of money, their resources could 'be developed and great prosperity brought to their .peoples.
The next port of call of the steamer after leaving Antigua was Martinique, an island thoroughly French. It has a population of about 250,000 people, and is probably one of the most prosperous places I had the opportunity of visiting. Through the good offices of the Royal Bank at Fort-de-France, the capital of the island, I was able to meet several of the prominent citizens. Most of the textiles of the island are imported >from France; but there is an opening for Canadian manufactures, and particularly flour, lumber and fertilizers. Their total imports of flour last year amounted to about 72,000 barrels, and of fertilizers about 100,000 tons. All of these fertilizers were secured from the west coast of South America.
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Guadeloupe is another important French island. I did not have an opiportunity to visit it; but I was informed that the prospects there of trade with Canada are good. The island has an area of 688 square miles, and a population of 229,000. I strongly recommend that there should be appointed a Frenchspeaking Canadian -trade agent to represent us in Martinique, Guadeloupe and Haiti where the people, with few exceptions, speak only French.
The Republic of Haiti has a population of over two millions of -people. The soil is very fertile. Although I did not visit Haiti, I was informed by the inspector of the Royal Bank agencies in the West Indies, who had recently spent a considerable time there, that in his opinion the opportunities for increased trade with Canada were greater in that republic than in any other part of the West Indies; and I was assured by a Haitian representative whom I had the pleasure of meeting that there is a very keen desire in Haiti for better trade relations with Canada, -and to that end he urged that they should be given a French-speaking Canadian trade agent, as all of the two millions of inhabitants speak French, and very few speak English.
We arrived at Bridgetown, Barbados, on the morning of January 7, and were met by a representative delegation consisting of governmental officials, business men, agriculturists and others. In Bridgetown, on January 8, I addressed a very large and enthusiastic joint meeting of the Chamber of Commerce, the Agricultural Society and planters, at which a resolution was passed with great enthusiasm, accepting the invitation of the Canadian government to a new conference. Barbados -has an area of 166 square mi-les, nearly -all of which is under cultivation. The population of the island is approximately 160,000. Its imports in 1923 amounted in value to about twelve and a half millions of dollars, of which three millions represented imports from Canada. Its exports in that year were about nine million dollars' worth, of which nearly seven million dollars' worth were to Canada. The exports of Barbados are almost entirely sugar and molasses. Canada is by far the best customer in molasses. In 1923 we -took 4,752,120 gallons out of a total exportation of 6,359,158. Of sugar -they exported to us 32,316 tons, out of a total export of 49,060. The average exportation for ten years, 1914 to 1923 inclusive, was 41,507 tons. The -principal articles imported from Canada by Barbados are: cattle food, oil meal, bran, sulphate of ammonia, butter, cheese, salted fish, -grain, oats, flour,; salted beef and pork;

lumber, spruce and shingles. The total value of imports from Canada in 1923 was about two and a half million dollars. The imports of flour from Canada are evidently decreasing. In 1920 their value was approximately $1,400,000; in 1921 about one million dollars; in 1922 about $750,000; and in 1923 they had fallen to $600,000.
Passenger traffic from Canada to Barbados is very small, in spite of the fact that the island's climatic conditions make it a most wonderful health resort. A criticism of the people of Barbados as well as of other West Indian islands, is their lack of effort to advertise the beauties and attractions of the various islands. The type of tourist these islands need is not, I submit, the American "tripper," who remains for only a few days; but people who will make their homes in these wonderful sun-kissed lands during the winter months at least, and get to know the people, and to admire the islands so that they will return there year after year. A serious complaint was made by the people of Barbados that we had closed our Canadian trade agency in that island, and that they have no one on the spot to confer with officially in reference to Canadian matters. I was very much impressed with the productivity of this, the most easterly of the West Indian islands. It is composed of a limestone and coral formation; and unlike many of the other islands, has no volcanic characteristics. There are about four hundred miles of excellent motor roads, which 'being built of white coral are particularly free from mud and also produce very little dust.
The hospitality of the people of Barbados is well known, and the beauty of their homes is unexcelled. In no other part of the world will you find so many of the old planters' houses, many of them filled with beautiful antique mahogany furniture, homes maintained with all the style and ceremony of the old slavery days. Barbados is a little country of quiet dignity and refinement, and it possesses during most of the year a climate which is probably unsurpassed.
The Windward Islands constitute one crown colony,, consisting of St. Lucia, St. Vincent and Grenada, with a small group of islands known as the Grenadines. There is one government for the entire group, the seat of government being at St. George, Grenada. The total area of these islands is about five hundred square miles, and the population about 165,000. The imports in 1923 amounted in value to about $3,200,000, and the exports to about $2,600,000.
On the morning of January 9th we arrived at Tobago, a dependency of the island of Trinidad, and were greeted by a reception com-

The Budget-Mr. Logan
mittee which came out to the ship. I went ashore and met a number of prominent citizens, who keenly desire closer relations with Canada. We arrived at Port of Spain, the capital of Trinidad, the evening of that day, January 9, and were received by a large and very influential delegation, which came out to the ship-anchored two miles from the shore-and extended a warm welcome from the government and the people of Trinidad. On the following morning, January 10, I had an informal discussion with a committee composed of the Trinidad Chamber of Commerce, the Agricultural Society, and Sir S. Davson, president of the Associated Boards of Trade of the British West Indies, who stopped over on his way from Georgetown, to England. This was really a round table discussion, to formulate a programme of activities when I should return to Trinidad from British Guiana.
We arrived at Georgetown, the capital of British Guiana; otherwise known as Demerara, on the morning of January 13th, and were met by a deputation consisting of representatives of the government and leading business men, including Sir Alfred Sherlock and other prominent citizens of the capital. On the 14th a large meeting of the combined commercial and industrial interests of the colony was held, the meeting being presided over by the governor, Sir Graeme Thompson. I addressed this meeting, and extended the invitation of our government, which was received with great enthusiasm. That evening a banquet was given by the Georgetown Chamber of Commerce, at which over one hundred were present. Inspiring addresses were made. Canada has a warm place in the hearts of British Guiana. It is one of the most important of the British colonies. The area is 89,480 square miles, and the population nearly 300,000. The capital, as I have said, is Georgetown, with a population of 56,000. The imports in 1922 amounted in value to over $11,000,000; the exports to over $13,000,000. Canada is British Guiana's second best customer, her exports in 1922 to the Dominion being to the value of $5,029,143, and to the United Kingdom $5,722,675. Her imports are chiefly butter and cheese, coal, machinery, and implements, and fish-dried and pickled- grain and flour. The value of flour imported from Canada for the year ended December 31st, 1923, was $1,174,762. She also imports condensed milk, pork, hams, bacon, potatoes, tobacco and woollens.
The colony is on the northeast coast of South America, contiguous to French Guiana and Dutch Guiana. It was settled by the Dutch, who certainly picked out a country 118
much like their homeland. Georgetown and the surrounding plantations lie some four feet below sea level, the country being protected for miles by strong sea walls and dykes. Sugar is the staple product of the colony, the annual output being around 85,000 tons. The area under cultivation of sugar is 50,000 acres. This area could, however, ibe greatly increased. In fact, I was informed by a reliable authority that the colony could easily produce two million tons of sugar annually, if they had sufficient market.
The colony has wonderful rivers, waterfalls, in the interior, fertile farms and grazing lands; also minerals, including diamonds. The diamond production last year was about $5,000,000. I heard in this colony also the complaint that they have no resident trade commissioner from Canada. I would recommend that such a commissioner be appointed, and that he be given jurisdiction over the French and Dutch Guianas as well.
On January 16 I arrived back at Port of Spain, Trinidad, which is the great big island on the west of the Caribbean sea. It possesses wonderful resources of various kinds, including cocoa lands, sugar cane plantations, vast cocoanut groves, oil wells and asphalt. The latter is procured from Pitch lake, where there seems to be an everlasting supply. Practically the world's supply of oil tar or asphalt has come from this lake in the past fifty years. The lake is about 114 acres in extent; but although millions of tons have been extracted, it is now only fourteen feet below its original level. The pitch is taken or mined from the lake, by hand, workmen merely using ordinary picks and shovels to break it in pieces. The cavity formed during the day, disappears during the night. The annual output amounts to something like two hundred thousand tons. None of this asphalt is shipped direct to Canada.
The area of Trinidad, including its dependency of Tobago, is 1,976 square miles, and the population is 365,913. The population of the capital, Port of Spain, a wonderful and beautiful city, is 61,531. The imports of the island in 1923 were in value over twenty million dollars, of which over four millions were from Canada and about five millions from the United States. The exports in that year were over $23,000,000 worth, the amount to Canada being about $1,500,000. In 1923, the principal articles of import into Trinidad from Canada and the United States were; butter, cheese, fish-dried or salted-bran, corn meal, oats, flour, salt beef and pork, bacon, condensed milk, vegetables-dried and canned-fresh vegetables, potatoes, onions, and lumber.

1S48
The Budget-Mr. Logan

On January 20 I addressed the Chamber of Commerce at Port of Spain. The meeting was a very large one. A strong resolution that the invitation of this government should be accepted was carried unanimously. On this island I visited several sugar plantations, and mills, among them being that situated at Usine Ste. Madeleine, where there are 22,000 acres under cane cultivation and 15,000 people employed. I also had the great privilege of visiting the city of San Fernandez, and seeing some of the results of the great work done by the Rev. Kenneth J. Grant, the devout Canadian who served thirty-seven years of his life as a missionary among the East India people of Trinidad. I am firmly convinced that the trade with Trinidad can be very materially increased. We are fortunate in having on this island as Canadian Trade Commissioner Mr. H. R. Poussette, who has lately moved into a suite of offices that do credit to our country.
On January 25 I sailed from Port of Spain on the Royal Dutch Mail Line Steamer Venezuela, for Venezuela, Colombia and Panama, en route to Jamaica. We arrived at the port of La Guayra on January 27, and a representative of the Venezuelan government immediately boarded the ship and accorded a very enthusiastic welcome. We proceeded to Caracas, the capital of the republic, which is a wonderful city, situated in the mountains and with a population of over one hundred thousand people. I had a conference with the Foreign Minister and other representatives of the government, the acting British Minister being the interpreter. I extended the greetings and felicitations of our government, which were reciprocated by the Foreign minister. I was very agreeably surprised by the expression of a very great desire for increased trade with Canada. The members of the government, as well as other leading men whom I met in Venezuela, complained that we had no resident representative of Canada in the whole republic, and also complained of the lack of steamship service, which compels them to transport their goods through American ports. As a matter of fact, in the trade returns of Venezuela, there is no mention made of Canada, although the republic consumed last year 128,000 barrels of Canadian flour, all shipped from the port of New York and treated by the Venezuelan customs authorities as American goods. The customs and shipping regulations are very strict. Many fines are imposed and at times goods have been confiscated. Before visiting that country, I had been frequently told that trade could not be carried on successfully with Venezuela on account of the customs officials. I took 
this matter up with the acting British minister at Caracas, and was informed that if shippers would observe the customs regulations properly no trouble would be met with from the Venezuelan customs authorities. In fact, he had decided, after investigation of complaints that had been made to him by British exporters to Venezuela, in favour of the Venezuelan customs authorities.
There is certainly a great need in this republic of a Spanish-speaking Canadian trade agent. It is a republic of great prosperity and of wonderful possibilities. There is in progress road building, principally cement, to the extent of many millions of dollars, which will reach all important trade centres of the country. The Maracaibo district, in the western part of the republic, is experiencing one of the world's greatest developments in oil, and the government derive from this oil development a very large amount of money in royalties.
I was surprised to find in Caracas that the business of the Royal Bank of Canada in that city requires a staff of over thirty people. Venezuela offers an excellent opportunity for the sale of Canadian products, expecially in such lines as flour, cement, spirits, cotton cloth, automobiles, and so forth: The population of the republic is 2.800.000. La Guayra is one of the most important harbours. The docking facilities are owned by an English company known as the La Guayra Harbour Corporation. The docks are well and substantially built, a^id the warehousing facilities are excellent. Cargo is transported to Caracas from La Guayra by a narrow-gauge railway- owned by the same interests owning the docks -and also by motor lorries over a wonderful cement highway.
_ The total trade of the republic is about sixty millions. Last year there was purchased from several countries as follows:
British Empire (except Canada)	 $	7.158,079
United States	 $13,953,451
France	 1,714.353
Holland	 1,562,858
Spain	 1.027,779
Germany	 2,613,892
The next call of the Dutch liner was at Puerto Cabello, but we remained there only a few hours. Next to Le Guayra, this is the most important harbour in Venezuela. There is a splendid land-locked harbour, an excellent quay and good warehouse facilities. It is the sea port for Valencia and other large cities in the interior. The population is about twenty thousand people. Among the industries is a large abattoir owned by Vestey & Company, which is an English concern. I called upon the British consul and also upon

The Budget-Mr. Logan
the Mission school being carried on by very zealous and earnest people from the city of Toronto.	;
While Venezuela trade returns show practically no trade or business being done with Canada, owing to our goods being shipped via New York, the figures published by the Canadian Department of Trade and Commerce for the fiscal year ended March 31st, 1924, show Canada's total trade with Venezuela to have been worth $1,044,388. Among our exports as set forth in our trade returns are flour, whisky, cotton, duck, wall paper, farm implements, automobiles-value $70,594 -copper wire and calcium carbide, 4,519 cwt.; while our imports from Venezuela were principally cocoa (raw), and coffee (green). I have no doubt whatever that great expansion of trade is awaiting Canada as soon as proper steamship communication is provided. To give an example of what can be done, in the flour trade alone, it is interesting to note the extraordinary advance Canada has made in the last three years. The exports of flour from Canada to Venezuela have been as follows:
		Barrels
In	1921	
15,772In	1922	
66,378In	1923	
106,256In	1924	
128,684
This is largely the result of keen work on the part of the flour milling companies. I suggest that their example might very well be followed by a large number of other manufacturing concerns in Canada. The Venezuelan tariff is an equal tariff to the whole world's with the exception of the West India Islands, whose goods are subject to thirty per cent extra charge.
From Puerto Cabello we proceeded to the Dutch island of Curacoa, about 110 miles north of Venezuela. Curacoa's chief claim to importance is the fact that it is the principal distributing port for a large part of Venezuela known as Maracaibo, where, as I mentioned before, there is being carried on one of the world's greatest oil developments. Another important fact regarding Curacoa is that it possesses a wonderful harbour at Willemstad, the capital, while the gulf of Maracaibo and lake Maracaibo are too shallow to permit the passage of vessels of more than twelve feet draft. At Curacoa I conferred with the governor of the colony, also the British consul, manager of Maduro's Bank, the most important financial institution in the colony; with the president of the Chamber of Commerce, with Mr. M. F. Saunders, a Canadian, assistant manager of U8i
the Royal Dutch Shell oil refinery, situated on the island-which turns out about thirty thousands barrels of oil per day-and with other prominent citizens. The harbour at Willemstad is one of the greatest ports in the whole West Indies. The total trade of Curacoa for 1923 amounted to $19,000,000, and in 1924 it had increased to $30,000,000. The imports, which amounted in 1924 to about $18,000,000 are credited in the Curacoa trade returns as coming from a large number of countries: for instance, from England to the value of $532,430; from France, $120,600; from the Netherlands, $1,967,200; from the United States, $2,681,600; but, unfortunately, from Canada according to these returns the imiports amounted to only $200.
In the island are wonderful deposits of phosphate of lime. The output is about one hundred thousand tons annually, shipped principally to Germany, England and Sweden, for fertilizing purposes. The island last year imported flour to the amount of 2,684 metnc tons, or, roughly speaking, 27,000 barrels. Corn meal for the same year was imported to the extent of 3,693 metric tons. Practically all the flour and corn meal comes from the United States. The only brand of flour I discovered made in Canada was known as "Olympic," exported by the Quaker Oats Company. The United States also supplies boots and shoes, groceries, hardware and so forth.
The customs duties of Curaco would not be complained of, even by our friends, the Progressives. The ad valorem duty is 3 per cent. There are some specific duties but none runs higher than 15 per cent.
From Curacoa we proceeded to Puerto Colombia, which is the seaport of Barran-quilla, a city of about seventy thousand people, and which is the distributing point for the western part of the Republic of Colombia. There is a concrete pier at Puerto Colombia which is over four thousand feet in length. At the end of this pier there is berthing accommodation for four large or six small steamers. Cargoes are landed direct to railway trucks and shipped to Barran-quilla.
Barranquilla, from a commercial point of view, is without doubt a very important city, by virtue of the fact that it is the distributing point for the traffic of the Magdalene river, which penetrates the interior for one thousand miles, but which is too shallow below Barranquilla to permit of navigation, although the river is navigable for shallow-draft steamers for about seven hundred miles above Barranquilla, with the exception rf a few short
The Budget-Mr. Logan

rapids, where railway lines have been built for transferring cargo. The goods are transported from Puerto Colombia to Barranquilla by a railway eighteen miles in length. This railway and the long concrete pier at Puerto Colombia are owned by a British concern. At Barranquilla we were received by the governor and the British consul, and other prominent citizens. We visited the points of interest, including a fairly large flour mill managed by a Canadian who is using some Canadian wheat and .would use more if direct transportation from Canada were provided. The necessity was strongly urged for the call of Canadian boats at Puerto Colombia.
From Puerto Colombia the ship proceeded to Cartagena, a city of sixty thousand people, and with one of the finest natural harbours in the world. I was received by a delegation from the Chamber of Commerce, and by representatives of the president of the republic, as well as by the governor of the Province. Afterwards, I held a conference with the governor and the ex-governor and a number of other prominent men of the city, who expressed a very keen desire for increased trade with Canada. I was much impressed with Colombia. In the first place, it is a land with constitutional and stable government, and with a kindly feeling for any country that is British. In a speech delivered by the governor at a large luncheon given by him, he referred with evident delight to the fact that in the war for independence and for freedom from Spanish rule, their great liberator, Bolivar, was assisted by British forces. Development of the country is rapidly progressing. Railways are being built, canals extended, shipping facilities improved, and oil and other mineral fields are being developed. The Standard Oil interests are commencing the construction of four hundred miles of pipe line from the interior to Cartagena. At Cartagena there is berthing space for three or four good-sized ships and the depth of water is sufficient for the largest liners. At the time we were there, the big steamship Tuscania of the Anchor-Donaldson line was lying alongside. '
The total trade of Colombia amounts to about one hundred million dollars annually. Canada's trade with this republic for the year ended March 31, 1924, amounted in value to $750,000, made up of: imports $480000 and exports $240,000. The principal exports from Canada were aluminum, cement, cotton, duck, flour-2,568 barrels-structural steel, automobiles, tires, and wall paper.
The imports from Colombia consisted of bananas-8,378 stems,-coffee (green).-2.397,-

102 pounds,-coffee n.o.p. 13,484 pounds; and miscellaneous in value, $3,066,000.
The commercial conditions of Colombia are good, and a substantial increase should be effected in our trade with that country, with proper transportation facilities, representation by a trade commissioner, and a greater effort made to place Canadian goods on that market.
From Cartagena the ship proceeded to Cristobal and Colon, at the mouth of the Panama canal. I went next day to the city of Panama, on the Pacific coast, a distance of forty-two miles, and called upon the British ambassador to the Republic of Panama. Through him, a conference was arranged with the Minister for Foreign Affairs. The following day, in company with the British minister and the Minister of Foreign Affairs, I was received at the palace by the President of the Republic, a very bright and active young man who spoke excellent English. He expressed delight with the greetings which I carried to him on behalf of Canada. Both the President and the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and other representative men whom I met, expressed a keen desire for increased trade with this country, among the requirements of their importations particularly mentioning flour and fish. While in Panama I met some representative citizens from the Republic of Costa Rica, who pointed out the opportunities for Canadian trade with that country, which is one of the most prosperous of the Central American republics.
Among the ships I saw passing through the Panama canal was a Canadian Government Merchant Marine boat on her way from Halifax to Vancouver.
After returning to Colon and Cristobal, I proceeded to Jamaica on one of the boats of the Elders and Fyffe's line. In Jamaica I found a great deal of dissatisfaction with the way in which Canada has dealt with that country since the holding of the Canadian West Indian Conference in 1920. A claim is made that we have not carried out in good-faith the terms of the treaty, particularly in reference to steamship service and cold storage facilities. They claim also that, while they were taking large quantities of Canadian goods, particularly flour, we were importing from the United States our tropical fruits, particularly bananas. Last year we purchased two thousand stems of bananas from Jamaica, and from the United States two million stems.
I spent some days conferring with prominent men of the island, both white and coloured; and, with the Governor-General, Sir Samuel

The Budget-Mr. Logan
Wilson spoke at the opening of their Agricultural exhibition. The day following I was tendered a luncheon under the auspices of the Chamber of Commerce, presided over by the Governor-General. More than two hundred of the leading men from different parts of the island were present. I appealed to them as fellow Britishers, and pointed out that, as we had fought together in the Great war to preserve our empire, we should not be quarreling over small matters, such disagreements being generally due to misunderstandings which could be removed by friendly negotiations. At the conclusion of my remarks the Duke of Athol, who is developing a great sugar industry on the island with British capital, made a splendid speech, pointing out that greater trade with Canada would tend to empire-building as much as if the trade were with the Mother Country. A motion was made to accept the invitation of our government, which was enthusiastically and unanimously carried. And I am very glad to say that subsequently the Legislature of the island with but one dissenting voice voted $4,500 for the conference expenses.
Jamaica is the largest of the British West India islands, and the third largest of all the islands of the West Indies, having an area of four thousand four hundred and fifty square miles, and a population of well on to the million mark. Its imports in 1922 amounted to 4,835,393 pounds sterling, made up as follows:
United States	 2,209,774
United Kingdom	 1,373,252
Canada	 647,943
Other countries	 604,424
The island is a veritable tropical paradise, The heat in the lowlands is intense; but, on account of the mountainous character of the country, temperate zones are quickly reached. In a very short time one may travel by motor from the .extreme heat of the lowlands, with their jungles and tropical vegetation, to an altitude where it is cool and at night almost cold. The possibilities of the island, particularly in the production of fruit, are enormous. But in some lines production has decreased, largely on account of lack of a steady market. However, I believe the conditions are now improved. Last year about 300,000 barrels of flour were imported, of which Canada supplied 202,048 barrels. The exportations of bananas from the island in 1923 were:
To the United	States	
9,680,000	stemsTo the United	Kingdom	
2,758,205	stemsTo Canada	
1,923	stemsTo other countries	
4,562	stems
In sugar, 15,667 tons were exported in 1923 to Canada, 6,805 tons to the United Kingdom
and 2,660 tons to other countries. These figures are for the calendar year.
The spread of prices from the producer to the consumer of fruit is startling. While I was in Jamaica, bananas were selling at about one-half a cent each. You know what we pay in Canada.
We consume in Canada about 18,000^)00 pounds of grape fruit annually, nearly all of which comes from the United States. The price paid to the producer for grape fruit, of excellent quality and delicious flavour, in Jamaica is about two and a half cents for each grape fruit. In the leading hotels of Canada thirty cents-and in some cases not far away thirty-five cents-is being charged for one-half of a grape fruit.
From Jamaica we proceeded to Santiago de Cuba. The Republic of Cuba has an area of 44,164 square miles, with a population of about three millions, of whom 800,000 are coloured. The staple products are sugar and tobacco. It is the largest sugar-producing country in the world. The sugar crop in 1922-23 was 3,601,056 tons. The total area of the sugar plantations is 1,384,812 acres, and in 1923 there were 125 sugar mills in operation. The trade of the country amounts to nearly oqe billion dollars. Of course, the largest trade is with the United States, with which they have a preferential tariff-reciprocal- of 20 per cent, but the imports from countries other than the United States amount to over $100,000,000 annually. Their imports consist largely of foodstuffs. I remained in Santiago only from noon until the following morning. In that time I was able, through introductions by the manager of the Royal Bank, to discuss trade matters with some leading citizens. There were two complaints made by the people: first, a lack of sufficient steamship communication with Canada, and the fact that there is no one there to officially represent Canada in trade matters. I believe there are great possibilities for increased trade with Santiago de Cuba with its wonderful harbour, but there should be located there a Spanish-speaking trade commissioner, who would look after the eastern part of the island of Cuba. Pickford and Black boats call at this port.
From Santiago de Cuba we proceeded across the island by rail five hundred miles to Havana. Everywhere the land is fertile and the people seem to be prosperous. At Havana, which is a city of about 400,000 people, through the British minister, I held an interview with the Minister for Foreign Affairs, and also had an audience with the president, both of whom expressed warm friendship fro- Canada.
The Budget-Mr. Logan

The consuming possibilities of Cuba are startling. For instance, they import a million dozens of eggs per month. The imports of potatoes for 1923 were valued at $5,482,283. Codfish was imported in 1923 to the value of $2,102,059; wheat flour $8,514,785; and condensed milk to the extent of fifty million pounds. Both cheese and eggs find a ready import market in Cuba, but Canada's share is entirely negligible, and practically all the eggs come from the United States. Salted pork, lard, ham and preserved meats, are imported from the United States to the value of about $5,000,000 per annum. Some Canadian hay comes to Havana by the steamers that br.ng potatoes. We have now one steamer sailing direct from Canada to Havana, and are able to underquote the United States price for hay by about three dollars per ton. Their present prices are from $25 to $27 per ton. Havana imports about 10,000 bales per month. I cannot too strongly urge the immediate appointment of a first-class trade commissioner at Havana, and there should be more frequent steamship communication between our ports and that city as well as other Cuban ports.
While in Havana I was given a luncheon by the Canadian Bankers, and a dinner at the British Legation; and I was able to confer with many leading importers and exporters.
From Cuba I proceeded to Key West and to Miami, and from Miami to Nassau in the Bahamas, where the steamer arrived on the morning of February 21st. The Bahamas are not of very great importance from a trade standpoint; and, like Bermuda, the American influence is very strong. Great attention is paid to the tourist traffic. The government has invested over $2,000,000 in the new Colonial hotel, which is managed and controlled by the Munson Steamship line. I was given a luncheon by the Governor, at which were present the Colonial Secretary, the Speaker of the Assembly, the manager of the Royal Bank, and others; and I was afterwards entertained at Government house and by the Hon. Harcourt Malcolm, who was one of the representatives of the Bahamas at the Canada West India Conference of 1920. I left Nassau, en route to Ottawa, on the 23rd, of February.
I regret I was not able to visit Haiti, the Dominican Republic and Porto Rico. From information which I have secured, I think it very important that we should have steamship communication with both the Republic of Haiti and the Dominican Republic. From the latter last year our imports of sugar were very large, but we sold them very little in return. We should have a Spanish speaking

agent to officially represent Canada in trade matters. Haiti has a total population of over two millions, and the Dominican Republic a population of nearly one million. Haiti buys from the United States goods to the value of over $10,000,000 per year, but the amount purchased from Canada is almost negligible. In 1922 there entered and cleared at the port of Port-au-Prince 251 steam vessels. The imports into this republic from the United States amounted to $6,480,105; from the United Kingdom $2,085,055; but Canada is not mentioned in the Haitian trade returns. The chief imports are cotton goods, iron and steel manufactures, foodstuffs to the value of $4,336,201; machinery, oils, hides. The principal exports are: sugar, to the value of $9,192,172, a considerable portion of which went to Canada; cacao (cocoa) $3 054,071. In 1922, 741 steamers with a total tonnage of 911,596 tons (with cargo) entered in the foreign trade of this republic.
In view of our need of cheaper tropical fruits, and our desire to obtain them from countries under our flag, I beg to recommend that we go a long way in removing customs duties on such fruits coming from these British lands and entering Canada through Canadian seaports. There would be a loss of revenue, but a great blessing should come to the consumers of our country, and the revenues of our transportation systems both by sea and land would be greatly augmented. In fact, such an arrangement should, to a considerable extent, lessen the deficits of our national ships and railways.
I mentioned at the outset, Mr. Speaker, the invitations which I carried from the Prime Minister of this country to attend a conference in Ottawa this spring. I am very glad to say that official acceptances have been received from all with the exception of the Bahamas. And as acceptance has been recommended to the legislature of that colony, which is now in session, by the governor, no doubt a delegate will be appointed within a few days.
There is no doubt that among the requests which will be made by the delegates, will be the abolition of the Dutch standard sugar test, which in the whole world is now retained only by Canada-and Turkey. It is based upon the sugar colour, as established annually by the vision of certain men in Rotterdam, Holland. Among other things, the color standard tends to the importation into Canada from these British West Indies of a deteriorated quality of sugar. I saw, in one of the largest sugar mills, a sugar being produced of beautiful pure crystals, but which actually had to undergo a colouring process in order

The Budget-Mr. Logan
to comply with the Dutch standard. I found, however, that the sugar producers are very reasonable. They realize the importance of the refining industry in Canada, and I do not think they would seriously object to a reasonable standard established by the polariscope test, which is both scienffic and certain; but they do object most strenuously to a standard which depends upon the eyesight of any individual. If the Dutch standard has been abolished in such countries as Great Britain and the United States, why should Canada retain it-along with Turkey?
The two greatest needs to build up a great trade between our country and the British West Indies and other lands in and about the Caribbean sea, are efficient trade commissioners and better transportation facilities not only for freight but for passengers as well. Canadians rarely visit these wonderful countries, and their people rarely come to Canada. We should know each other better, and in the British lands pursue a common policy of trad1-ing within the empire.
In reference to trade commissioners, I beg to recommend that we establish agencies at Bermuda and in all the islands and other lands in and around the Caribbean Sea. I further recommend that in countries such as Martinique, Guadeloupe and Haiti, where only French is spoken, the agent should be a French-speaking Canadian; and that in lands such as Venezuela, Colombia, Panama, Costa Rica and the Dominican Republic as well as Santiago de Cuba, where only Spanish is spoken, the agents should be Spanish-speaking Canadians.
But probably the biggest of all questions is that of transportation. It is admitted by everybody that the present service is unsatisfactory, especially in the combined passenger and freight service to Jamaica. The routes were established and the ships made to suit the treaty. They are not proper freight boats, the passenger accommodation is very meagre, and there is a serious loss in operation. As a matter of fact, I think the annual loss to the Canadian government in operation of this service is in the vicinity of $465,000 and we are continually breaking the terms of the treaty. We agreed to give a fortnightly service. We do not pretend to give more than a three weekly service, and we have not provided, or tried to provide, cold storage.
No new treaty will be possible unless the delegates are assured the above conditions are to be greatly improved. They will ask for a fortnightly service the year round for first-class ships from St. John and Halifax via the eastern group to Demerara and return, and
also a fortnightly service of the same class of ships from Montreal in summer and Halifax and St. John in winter, sailing to the western group, to Jamaica. This will mean the provision of at least six new ships -as well as a side service from Jamaica to British Honduras. These ships should have accommodation for 100 first-class, 30 second-class and 100 third-class, as well as deck passengers, also the most modern equipment for the handling of freight and cold storage for fruit. They should have a sea speed capable of being developed to at least sixteen knots.
There are two ways of providing this service by our government: by contracting with a private shipping company, or with the Canadian Government Merchant Marine Corporation.
The Royal Mail Steam Packet Company has tendered to put four new motor ships on the eastern group service for ten years at a subsidy which amounts to about $534,000 per year, and to maintain a fortnightly service between Halifax and St. John and Demerara. It may be presumed, if they were to tender for the western service, without considering South American ports, they would require an additional $300,000 annually. In ' other words, we would be called upon to pay subsidies amounting to $834,000 per year to a private company. We could hardly expect the British West Indies, British Guiana and British Honduras to contribute more than $200,000 of this amount annually, which would mean even if that amount were contributed there would have to be paid out of the Treasury of Canada, $634,000 per year. At the end of ten years we would have paid the private company, $6,340,000, and the company would own the ships, and all we would have to show would be subsidy receipts.
But suppose we should augment the present Canadian Government Merchant Marine West Indian fleet by the building of six ships, which, I am assured by those competent to know, would be quite sufficient-if the speed I have mentioned were provided-to serve both the eastern and western services, as well as calling at ports along the northern republics of South America. It is estimated they would cost $7,800,000, and would depreciate in value not over 50 per cent in ten years. If the British West Indies would provide an annual contribution of $200,000, we would have $2,000,000 paid to Canada in the ten years. We would therefore be out of pocket $5,800,000, but we would own the ships, which would be worth $3,900,000 making our total loss, even if the ships did not make any oper-
The Budget-Mr. Logan

ating profit, $1,900,000, or $4,440,000 less than if we subsidize a private company. I believe that with the improved trade that is bound to come between Canada and these southern lands, thereby creating new shipping business, we soon would have large profits in operation. Personally I am of the opinion, if the Canadian Government Merchant Marine abandoned every other route on every other sea, the business with the West Indies should be carried on by it, in co-operation with the Canadian National Railways. Incidentally I would recommend that the name Canadian Government Merchant Marine be changed to the Canadian National Steamship Company.
The greatest opposition to the idea of operating this southern service by the Canadian Government Merchant Marine comes from Halifax and St. John. This arises from the fear that they would not have the same frequency of sailings as they have now between these ports and the West Indies. I submit, however, a scheme can be worked out by which the Maritime ports will receive a service far superior to anything they have ever had and that a great improvement would also be given to the St. Lawrence river route, and at the same time, traffic would be provided for the Canadian National Railways, which, we know, is seriously needed to cut down the tremendous deficits.
The proposition is that instead of employing five ships on two separate and distinct runs in two separate and distinct services, six ships be employed, which would make a complete circuit of the West Indies and the northern republics of South America, the ships to sail from Canada weekly and alternate the route. That is to say, in one week this service would be by the eastern group to Demerara, returning via northern South America, Jamaica, Haiti, Cuba and Nassau. The following week the voyage would be via the western route to Nassau, Haiti, Cuba, Jamaica, northern South America, returning via the eastern group. In winter the ships would sail weekly from Halifax and St. John and would alternate between these two ports and Montreal in summer. For instance, a ship would leave Halifax and St. John and proceed via the Leeward and Windward Islands, Barbados and Trinidad, to Demeara. On her return she would call at Trinidad, La Guaya (Venezuela), Curacoa, a port in Colombia, Jamaica, a Cuban and a Haitian port, Nassau, and thence to Montreal.
The week aflter the above sailing from Halifax and St. John, a ship would leave Montreal taking cargo now being handled by the Canadian Forester and the Canadian Fisher, and 
proceed, calling at Charlottetown, P.E.I., through the strait of Canso and on by the western group and the South American ports to Demerara, returning via Trinidad, Barbados and the Leeward and Windward Islands, and thence, not back to Montreal, but to St. John and Halifax. The next voyage a week later would start from Halifax and St. John finishing at Montreal, and the next from Montreal finishing at St. John and Halifax This would give a fortnightly service from Halifax and St. John and the same from Montreal, but it would also give a weekly service from Canada.
In the winter, sailings would be the same as in. tlhe summer, except that all the sailings would be from Halifax and St. John, thereby giving them a weekly sendee for the winter months, not only to the points reached now by the present service, but to countries where most important business only awaits direct transportation. The ships would have to be of at least 5,000 or 6,000 gross tons, and be built not only for freight, but for proper passenger accommodation. It may be pointed out that the entire traffic to and from Maritime ports could be handled over the lines of the Canadian National Railways.
This service would mean, first, a weekly passenger and freight service from Canada to all the West Indies and lands in and about the Caribbean sea, from Maritime province ports during the winter time, and a fortnightly service to all these countries from Montreal, Halifax and St. John in summer.
Countries situate on the southern side of the circle where ships would cross, would have a very frequent service, as they could go to or from Canada in either direction. It would give inter-communication between the eastern and western groups of the West Indies, where there is none at present.
A service by which a person could sail from a Canadian port and encircle the Caribbean sea calling at so many intensely interesting and historic places and return to Canada without changing ships would soon become one of the most popular tourist routes in the world.
The present Canadian Government Merchant Marine freight service, from Canada to Demerara, would still be maintained as there would be more tonnage coming north than the fast ships could handle, and if the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company should maintain their freight service, the people of the eastern group would have a weekly service, and even better if the Canadian Pacific Railway does not withdraw from that route.
If the service were performed by the
Canadian Government Merchant Marine,

Private Bills
the new ships would be built in Canada and the crews employed would be Canadians, whereas, any private company would1, in all probability, build their ships in England, or, as recently happened in an EngliA company, in Germany where the cost of production is now very low. The present Royal Mail Steam Packet Company's ships, with the exception of the ship's surgeons, are not manned by Canadians.
Before closing this report, may I refer to the importation of bananas direct to Canada? In 1924 we imported 2,429.656 stems, practically all from the United States. Of these, 1,867,266 stems came into Canada between May and October inclusive. This is a part of the year when the port of Montreal is open, and of course the ports of Halifax and St. John in the east, and Vancouver and other Pacific jports in the west, are open the year round. Vancouver would be the logical distributing point for bananas used west of Winnipeg, while Montreal in the summer months would distribute as far west as, and including, that city. It would not cost more to distribute to central Canada and the middle west through Montreal and Vancouver than it does now from New York and a port on the Pacific. I am making this statement in view of the fact that the request may be made at the conference that there should be a customs duty of say fifty cents a stem imposed on bananas coming from the United States, while West Indian bananas should come in free of duty.
Let me say in conclusion, after my extensive travels and careful investigation, having endeavored to secure my information from the most reliable sources, I am more than ever convinced that in trade with these southern lands lies Canada's opportunity.
It means extensive and ever increasing markets for the products of our soil and our manufacturers, and a reduction in the cost of tropical products to the consumers of Canada.
We have one advantage in that the banks of Canada have blazed the trail, I submit it is up to us to follow.
At six o'clock the House took recess.
After Recess
The House resumed at eight o'clock. PRIVATE BILLS-SECOND READINGS
Bill No. 40, respecting the Ottawa Electric Railway Company.-Mr. Chevrier.
Bill No. 42, to amend the Toronto Harbour . Commissioners Act, 1911.-Mr. Church.



MARCONI WIRELESS TELEGRAPH COMPANY OF CANADA

[Stage Direction]
Mr. PIERRE F. CASGRAIN (Charlevoix-Montmorency) moved the second reading of Bill No. 21, respecting the Marconi Wireless Telegraph Company.
Mr. W. A. BOYS (South Simoce):: I want to say that I am in no sense sponsor for this bill, but a friend of mine in Ottawa a solicitor, met me yesterday and asked me if I would do what I could to see that the bill was referred to the Private Bills committee. I asked him for a typewritten statement of the purposes and objects of the bill which he gave me and which I now have. I have since referred to the bill and I can see no reason whatever why it should not receive a second reading and be referred to the Private Bills committee. I might briefly refer to the clauses.
The first clause only proposes to change the name of the Marconi Wireless Telegraph Company of Canada, Limited, to the Canadian Marconi Company; its purpose is only to shorten the name. The object of the second clause is to confirm a by-law which received the assent of the shareholders and which reduces the par value of the Shares from $2.50 to $1, the capital stock being maintained at the former figure. The third clause repeals the former clauses seven and eleven and as far as I can see the only change of consequence takes place in clause eleven where, under the former section, bydaws dealing with increasing or reducing the capital stock of the company required two-thirds of the value of the subscribed capital represented, whereas the clause that is new requires two-thirds of the votes cast at the meeting. The fourth clause of the bill permits the company to engage in a wireless or other system of telephony as well as in the work they are now engaged in. I cannot see how there can be much objection to the bill from anybody; it apparently deals almost entirely with internal management. Even if there were any objections they can all be thredied out in the usual way before the Private Bills committee where we can hear representatives of the company and those opposed to the bill, if any. In the absence of the sponsor of the bill I will move its second reading.
Motion agreed to and bill read the second time.



KNIGHTS OF PYTHIAS OF CANADA

[Stage Direction]
Mr. FRED W. BOWEN (Durham, for Mr. Maybee) moved the second reading of bill No. 38, to incorporate the Knights of Pythias of Canada.
Private Bills
Mr. ROBB:: Explain.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I have not studied the bill but apparently it is one which has for its object the incorporation of the Knights of Pythias, embodying most of the usual fraternal society provisions. Apparently from the powers desired it is sought to take over the United States society which hitherto, apparently, has been carrying on for the members here. The objects of the society are of a social and fraternal character, and there are the usual provisions with respect to insurance fund, death benefits, old age benefits, and the like. I think we might send the measure to the Private Bills committee.


James Alexander Robb: I should like to say before the second reading of the bill passes, in order that it might go on record on behalf of the department, that this is not the Knights of Pythias as understood in Canada. This is a new organization proposing an incorporation of a fraternal society of coloured people particularly. Hon. gentlemen will observe it is " the Knights of Pythias of Africa and Australia " and the department has had some objections filed from the Knights of Pythias incorporated in the United 'States. The department offers no objection to the bill. Indeed it recognizes that the people who are applying for this charter have the same rights as white people to become incorporated for fraternal purposes; but it is just possible that the name may have to be changed when the bill comes before the committee.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That would be a matter for the committee I should think.


Mr. T. W. CALDWELL (Victoria and Carleton):: There is already a fraternal society known as the Knights of Pythias in Canada which also extends to the United States. I would regret very much if granting these people a charter would override the rights and privileges of the present organization in Canada. I think it will be a serious matter to grant a charter to these people without a full understanding of the bearing it might have on the present organization.
Mr. RiOBB:	That is a matter which can
be dealt with in committee.
Motion agreed to and bill read the second time.



JOLIETTE AND NORTHERN RAILWAY COMPANY

[Stage Direction]
Mr. CHARLES E. HANNA (West Hastings, for Mr. Denis (Joliette) ) moved the second reading of bill No. 39, respecting Joliette and Northern Railway Company.
Henry Lumley Drayton: I should like to ask the Minister of Railways before the motion is adopted what the present limitation is under the government's policy, as to the amount of securities that may be issued per mile of railway? At one time it was $20,000 per mile, at another time $25,000 per mile, then $30,000 a mile, and then there were special cases where special costs were involved where it went beyond that amount. In this case it is $45,000 a mile. That is something that can be looked into in committee, but it is a matter for the government to deal with.


Mr. GRAHAM:: I am told it will be quite expensive, but I am free to admit that I have not gone into the matter, and I will call the attention of the members of the committee especially to the fact that the question of the amount to which securities may be issued is a vital matter and to watch it closely.
Motion agreed to and bill read the second time.



THE BUDGET


[Stage Direction]
The House resumed consideration of the motion of Hon. J. A. Robb (Acting Minister of Finance) that Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair for the House to go into committee of Ways and Means and the proposed amendment thereto of Sir Henry Drayton.
Mr. R. A. HOEY (Springfield):: I desire to state, Mr. Speaker, what I feel any hon. member of this chamber would state if he enjoyed the privilege that I enjoy at the moment, and that is that the members of this House and the people of this country must feel deeply indebted to the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan) for the instructive and inspiring report he has just submitted to the chamber dealing with the desirability of closer trade relations between the West Indies and Canada. The hon. member is a stalwart Canadian, and even though he had never delivered an address on his mission, even though he had refused to partake of those sumptuous repasts to which he referred, I feel nevertheless, that his very presence must have created a profound impression upon the people he met and proved of great value as an advertisement of the Dominion of Canada.
The present budget, Mr. Speaker, is the second introduced by the Acting Minister of

The Budget-Mr. Hoey
Finance (Mr. Robb) and the fourth brought down by the present administration. I am one of those who believe that if the faith of the Canadian people in political institutions is to be maintained, if constitutional rather than revolutionary methods of procedure are to be adopted, the policy of a government, and particularly the policies of a government a3 embodied in their annual budget, must reflect measurably at least the platform upon which they were elected and the promises g;ven at the time of their return to power to the electorate. Of the four budgets introduced three bear about the same resemblance to the Liberal platform of 1919 as a photograph of the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) reproduced thereon would bear to the physi-ogonomy of the right hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Meighen). There may be points of resemblance, but so far I have failed to discover them.
The budget of last year was described as a step in the right direction. It was heralded as the forerunner and the harbinger of other budgets that would sound the death-knell of protection and result in the eradication of every element of protection from the programme of the Liberal party. As such it was supported by many hon. members in this section of the House, and ultimately carried by an overwhelming majority. Since then several by-elections have been held. The people were consulted, and the people when thus consulted endorsed by large majorities, with one single exception, the action taken by the government at that time. Viewed in the light of present-day events I cannot help but describe the budget of last year, not as a step in the right direction, but a shuffle- the shuffle of a manacled man towards a pillar, against which he intended temporarily to lean, knowing that if he fell in his manacled condition he might not easily regain his feet.
I take the position that never in the history of this country was the need for tariff revision more apparent and its necessity more universally recognized than at the present time. There are those who contend that the tariff should be revised upwards in the interests of Canadian industry. There are many who contend* that the tariff should be revised downwards in an attempt to relieve the primary producers, but the necessity for revision is conceded by all. It may be considered a patriotic duty to-day to point to closed factories in eastern Canada and to the unemployed people there, but why should a man be described as a howling pessimist when he refers to the abandoned farms and to the
agricultural conditions prevailing at this time in western Canada? I have realized for some time the hopelessness of a western member in this House making any pronouncement on the tariff that would not be considered biased and prejudiced, and so I want to call to my support certain outstanding business men of this country who are perhaps better fitted than I, by training, by the experience through which they have passed and by the positions of responsibility they occupy in this country to make a pronouncement on the tariff issue. The first one I want to quote is Mr. Angus McLean of Bathurst, New Brunswick. A letter was sent to Mr. McLean by the secretary of the Manufacturers' Association, Maritime provinces branch, and in reply to that letter Mr. McLean is reported as follows:
We find that almost invariably the Canadian manufacturers charge the Canadian consumer the foreign price plus the protection they enjoy under the tariff. Until the Canadian manufacturer is brought to realize that this is taxing the consumer in the most unfair way and changes his ways we are going to have to struggle and work hard to carry on business in the Maritime Provinces. Our chief products are from the farms, forests, mines and seas and we must find a market for these products outside Canada.
What we must have to become prosperous is an opportunity to buy our requirements cheaper than we now can do under a protective tariff; and, next, we need broader markets for the things we produce. We cannot get this broader market in Canada for two reasons. First, owing to our geographical position we cannot reach the Canadian markets where the chief consumption takes place, as our railway freight rates are too high, and, secondly, every part of Canada produces goods similar to our own and is also looking for a market for them.
And he concludes with this very pointed observation:
The Canadian manufacturer who makes goods for the Canadian trade should stand on his own legs now and he should be able to do so if ever he will. There is absolutely no danger of the Canadian consumer buying foreign made goods if he can buy the homemade article as cheaply and as good.
The next authority I desire to quote-and this statement was quoted only in part by the hon. member for Northumberland (Mr. Snowball), who left out the best part of it-is Hon. F. B. McCurdy, former Minister of Public Works in the cabinet of my right hon. friend (Mr. Meighen). He says:
And let me speak of the so-called National Policy, or system of protection, under and by virtue of which it is certainly true that the manufacturers of Ontario and Quebec have fattened and grown rich, even although they are now passing through a lean period.
The mass production at the large industrial centres has driven to the wall the modest manufacturing establishments of this province, whose failure was the signal for the mass producers to raise their prices to the utmost limit permitted by the tariff. It has brought to Canada in 25 years the branches of 700 American manufactories, of which, however, the first has yet to be located in these provinces. It per-
The Budget-Mr. Hoey

mits an automobile industry that can export 60,000 motor cars in a year to foreign lands in competition with the States, while soaking consumers in these provinces and elsewhere in Canada from 50 to 60 per cent more than duplicate cars sell at retail in the United States-very fine, perhaps, for the Windsor and Oshawa districts where cars are made, but economic death to the people who pay.
He recognizes that the Maritime provinces and the west are handicapped and injured in exactly the same way by such a tariff policy. Neither can benefit by it because they must market their products abroad for the most part. Referring to the central provinces, he says rather bitterly:
" They do not need our beef, cheese, butter, egg*, lumber or fruit, and we must send our produce to other lands: potatoes to Cuba, fish to Brazil and the Mediterranean, lumber to foreign lands, and apples to England, all to be sold in competition with the world, and therefore at low prices, in order to provide the dollars wherewith to pay for goods *rom central Canada manufactured and sold to us behind a tariff wall, which keeps out competition. The tariff arrangements of the Dominion are naturally made to suit the centres of greatest population and no consideration is given to our needs."
** What we need, if we would thrive, is the opportunity to live our own lives, to develop our own resources and to increase our own culture under fiscal arrangements that are suited to our needs, that will ensure us a square deal, so lacking in the cumulatively unfair Canadian fiscal history of the past fifty years.
The third statement I want to quote comes not from the Maritime provinces but from the city of Montreal; for truth does occasionally come out of Nazareth. Mr. F. P. Jones, president and manager of the Canada Cement Company, in an address delivered before the Commercial Society of McGill University on January 22, expressed certain views which it will interest the House to hear. Mr. Jones does not belong to the Progressive party nor is he a supporter of it. He does not belong to western Canada but is a resident of the city of Montreal; and if there is a more successful business man in that citv than Mr. Jones I have so far failed to meet him. On this occasion he is not discussing the tariff from the standpoint of a politician but from the standpoint of a successful Canadian business man. I have heard him use stronger language with regard to the present tariff than he uses here, but the words I shall quote are sufficiently strong for the purpose I have in mifid.
I want to say that I am not going to attempt to discuss free trade versus tariff, and am not going to discuss tariff from any political standpoint, any remarks I may make about tariff, I think can be applied equally to our present government, its predecessor and all Canadian governments before that.
My contention is that if we are to have a tariff, and we have one in Canada, we should only have it for two objects;
1st. To produce revenue, which unfortunately in this country with our debt we very much require,

2nd. To employ labour and develop the country.
They are the only two logical reasons for a tariff, and if the tariff will accomplish these two objects, it will be all that it was ever intended to do.
Does our present tariff accomplish these two objects? I contend gentlemen that it falls far short,-I contend it does not even attempt to, and when I speak of the tariff, I am not speaking of the Mackenzie King tariff alone, but of the Canadian tariff as it is, and has been for years back.
I think to-day's tariff has been made by persons running to Ottawa and expressing their view's, and the result is the tariff has been framed, not to produce revenue and employ labour, but to meet the views as expressed in Ottawa from time to time by different deputations.
Over 80 per cent of the goods which under our present tariff come in free, are free only to a privileged class, and not free to the people of Canada.
May I just pass on another brief quotation from a gentleman whose name is not- unknown in this chamber and throughout the Dominion of Canada.


Mr. MEIGHEN:: Before the hon. member does so would it not be fair to tell the House what Mr. Jones's opinion is?


Robert Alexander Hoey: 
James Alexander Robb: Mr. Speaker, before my hon.
friend leaves that part of his argument, would he mind telling us, if he is speaking for the Progressive party and if he approves of Mr. Jones's policy as described?


Robert Alexander Hoey: Mr. Speaker, I am speaking for no party. I am speaking as an individual in my own humble way trying to find a solution for some of the problems confronting the Canadian people in this crisis.


James Alexander Robb: Well, as an individual, does
my hon. friend approve of Mr. Jones's policy?


Robert Alexander Hoey: When the government has
declared just what their position is in regard to Mr. Jones's policy, I will be ready to de-
The Budget-Mr. Hoey

clare mine. But I will state now without hesitation or equivocation that Mr. Jones's policy would mean an immeasurably 'better tariff than we have at the present time. The next objection that will in all probability come from the government benches is that which relates to the establishment of a tariff board: a tariff board that will be set apart, the members of which are to obtain information with respect to the tariff schedules, submit the information to the government, and the government will act in the light of the information thus obtained. I want to put a question to the Acting Minister of Finance. When this tariff board is appointed, is he going to ask them to submit information showing how the tariff can be revised on the principle of protection or on the principle of revenue, and if not, how can they act?


James Alexander Robb: The tariff board will report to the minister representing the government of the day, and the government of the day must take the responsibility of submitting to parliament what tariff changes they consider best in the interests of the country.


Robert Alexander Hoey: I had considerable sympathy for the members of the tariff board prior to that answer on the part of the Acting Minister of Finance; I have even more sympathy for them now. Of all the proposals brought down by this government during its existence, this, to me, is by all odds the most objectionable. Here we have a tariff board that will review industry in this country. Here is an industiy with up-to-date machinery, with capable management. Side by side with it is another industry with archaic and obsolete machinery, and inefficiently managed. How is the tariff board going to determine what protection both industries need in order to enable them to manufacture profitably? The acting minister must know that there are violent fluctuations to-day in the prices of raw material, violent fluctuations in the prices of cotton. Every business man knows that these violent fluctuations cannot always be reflected in the wholesale or retail prices. And not only that; this board, I presume, is not going to have any power over the tariff schedules of other countries. Other countries may reduce their tariff schedules against us or impose higher duties against us, all of which will exercise a profound influence upon Canadian industry. Nor is that all. I referred to crop failures in western Canada. Western Canada may have a crop failure in a given year that will reduce by two-thirds the purchasing power of the western Canadian people, and that being the case, the output of those factories enjoying protection
[Mr. Hoev.l
must of necessity be curtailed in proportion.
I object to this tariff board because it indicates, if it indicates anything, the triumph of the Conservative policy in this country.


Arthur Meighen: Hear, hear.


Robert Alexander Hoey: If there is any hon. member in this House who should rejoice, it is the leader of the official opposition (Mr. Meighen). Why, this tariff board is going to rivet forever on the backs of the Canadian people the principle of protection. This tariff board is always going to lie on the lee side of public opinion. It is going to be a smoke screen behind which and in the midst of which governments are going to seek protection-I do not mean protection in the orthodox sense, but protection from the wrath of an aroused public. The acting minister who brings down such a proposal as this is, in my judgment, comparable to the man who would take shelter behind a cobweb to save himself from the violence of a prairie blizzard. I am convinced that this proposal to establish a tariff board and to rivet the principle of protection on the Canadian people will be resented by business men in this country because it is wholly impracticable, nebulous and meaningless; and will be resented by the agriculturists, the primary producers of this country, because they know from experience in the past that they have not obtained relief from the establishment of such boards.


James Alexander Robb: Before my hon. friend leaves that: a few moments ago I answered his question and stated that the tariff board would make inquiry and report to the government of the day-to the Minister of Finance of the government of the day-and that he would be responsible for such tariff changes as might be submitted to parliament. Suppose, for instance, my hon. friend was the Minister of Finance and the tariff board reported to him, would it mean that the tariff would be increased?


Robert Alexander Hoey: Not necessarily. I take the
position that such a board is wholly unnecessary. You cannot obtain the information that the Acting Minister of Finance is anxious to secure. Are the members of this board, for example, to have access to the income tax returns? The acting minister has access to them now, if he desires to' avail himself of the opportunity. I object to it because it is superfluous. What are we paying our cabinet ministers for? Where has the theory of responsible government gone to? If the government wants more information on the tariff schedules, why not constitute the Solicitor General and the Secretary of State, who are

The Budget-Mr. Hoey
not overburdened with work in their respective departments, into a tariff board and set them apart to study the tariff schedules and submit to the Acting Minister of Finance the information that is necessary before a revision can take place?
The third objection to the tariff revision that I anticipate is that more drastic revisions should not be undertaken-in the language of the Prime Minister-until we have an opportunity to see how the last revision works out, what effect it is going to have on the industries of this country. Well, we have that information already; we do not require a board to tell us what happened to the industries that were most affected by the last revision. The Minister of the Interior (Mr. Stewart) has told us that the farm implement industry for the first time in many years paid a dividend this year of 868,000. I cannot see, if the revisions of last session were followed with such immediate and such beneficial results, why the policy has not been continued and carried out in the present budget.
I want to turn from this aspect of the discussion to deal with a statement made during the course of this debate which perhaps made a more profound impression upon my mind than any similar statement that has been made since my entry into this House. It was made by the ex-Minister of Finance (Sir Henry Drayton), and I want to congratulate him on the delivery of that speech; in my judgment it was the best speech that he has delivered during the life of the present parliament. He dealt with France; he compared France with Great Britain. I will quote his words in a moment or two. But if the conditions he portrayed in France can be traced to protection and the conditions he portrayed in England can be traced to free trade, then it seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that the time has come in this country for us to review very carefully and very minutely the arguments of the protectionists in the light of this new experience that has come to us. France, that played such a heroic part in the greatest crisis in human history, has now, according to the ex-Minister of Finance, emerged triumphantly from that crisis, and her emergence can be traced almost wholly to her protective policy. It may not be just in order for an Irishman to reprimand an Englishman for his unfairness to the Mother Country, but even at the risk of being considered somewhat unconventional I am afraid I will have to attempt the task. The ex-Minister of Finance abhors "isms"; they are to him anathema; they are the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the Prophet-that is, all "isms" save Meighenism. Manufacturers such as I have quoted may dissent; agriculturists may rebel; the electors may remain stolid; by-elections may be lost; but the ex-Minister of Finance remains immovable. In the language of the new patriotism he exclaims: Give me protection or give me death1 Speaking during the course of this debate, he said:
Following out that principle of "never mind about employment," we see that labour that is fortunate enough to function to-day has strapped to its back the burden of 1,200,000 workers who unfortunately cannot find employment. There is the fruit of free trade. Go across the channel; just take the short trip to France and see what we find. Who will say that the land of the Mother Country is not good land? Who will say that her workers are not efficient? Who will say that her bankers are not capable? Who will say that her manufacturers, with their wits sharpened by "free trade, free trade, free trade," are not competent? Well, just take the little twenty mile trip to France and see the difference.- On the one hand, doles, un-emplosunent, want, plus a high cost of living; on the other hand, employment, plenty of it. Why, following the Armistice, and down to the first of January, 1924, France has received, provided with work and assimilated one and a half million immigrants. When I was there last summer she was receiving workers at the rate of 6,000 a week and there was still a lack of labour in the mines and for agriculture.
Now the words to which I should like to direct the attention of the House are these: "There is the fruit of free trade," and the word "agriculture" in the last line of the quotation. I wonder if the ex-Minister of Finance was altogether fair. Without attempting to make any invidious distinctions, but only in an attempt to determine just what the actual facts are, let us look at the war costa of these nations.	In an Analysis of
War and Post-war Finance, issued by the Bankers' Trust Company of New York and Paris-there were no Britishers concerned in the issuance of this report-a table is published showing the relative cost of the Great war to certain nations which took part therein. The table shows in each case the gross cost per head of population, and the percentage of national wealth in United States dollars at pre-war rates of exchange.
Cost National
per wealth
Country	capita per cent
Great Britain	$524	84	34.49France	
280	20	19.36Italy	124	59	20.59Russia	
44	01	13.11United States	
176	91	8.67Austria-Hungary	
108	76	18.13Germany	
292	57	24.71
It will be seen, Mr. Speaker, that there is a great disparity, first of all, in the war costs of the two nations compared by the exMinister of Finance. Let us look now for a moment at the taxes that are being paid by the two countries.
The Budget-Mr. Hoey


Henry Lumley Drayton: Has the hon. gentleman covered in that the costs of devastation and reparations? I do not think he has at all.


Robert Alexander Hoey: I will come to that. I want first to look at the taxes that are being paid in the two countries.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That is another question entirely.


Robert Alexander Hoey: 
Henry Lumley Drayton: Would my hon. friend tell me how much of that is Dominion taxation, how much provincial, and how much municipal?


Robert Alexander Hoey: 
Henry Lumley Drayton: Does my hon.
friend know what proportion of the reparation damages that amount represents?


Robert Alexander Hoey: I think it amounts to considerably over one-half.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I am sorry to
tell my hon. friend that as a matter of fact it is less than one per cent.


Robert Alexander Hoey: I will read this statement:
Payments already made for the reconstruction of war damage of all kinds amount to 98 billion francs, and it is reckoned that another 84 billions will be necessary to complete the cost of compensation and reconstruction. Under annex V of the treaty, Germany also undertakes to deliver to France 7 million metric tons of coal annually for ten years, and to make good any deficiency due to war causes in the production of coal in the department of Nord and Pas de Calais. The most important manufactures are of metals, watches, jewellery, cabinet-work, carving, pottery, glass, chemicals, dyeing, paper making, woollens, carpets, linen, silk, and lace. Glass manufacture and pottery are also important, and the sardine fisheries and the culture of oysters are of a source of wealth.
So that according to the official statement of France reproduced in Whitaker's Almanack, page 785, over one-half the reparations have been paid.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I am afraid my hon. friend is very much astray according to the last report which I have. However, I do not wish to delay him.


Robert Alexander Hoey: Now, let us look for a moment at the obligations of the two countries.

The Budget-Mr. Hoey


James Alexander Robb: Would my hon. friend allow
me; it is only for information; he has made a study of this matter: As he knows England collects 26 per cent on the amount levied on imports into Germany applied to reparations. Can he tell us to what extent that is represented in the amount which has been paid?


Robert Alexander Hoey: That would undoubtedly be
included but I am sorry I have not got the figures.	[DOT]


James Alexander Robb: My hon. friend does not know to what extent?


Robert Alexander Hoey: 
Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Before we get away
from Great Britain's loans will the hon. member tell us if anything has been collected, either in interest or in principal, on the loans Britain made to her allies.


Robert Alexander Hoey: I should not like to be
dogmatic but my judgment is at the moment that nothing in the way of principal or interest has been paid.


Henry Lumley Drayton: There is but one exception, Poland, as I recollect-a very small proportion.


Robert Alexander Hoey: I want to quote briefly from an article which appeared in the Saturday Evening Post of two weeks ago by Mr. Garet Garrett dealing with conditions in France:
On the state of visible and audible facts, the French people, who idolize reason, are suddenly very difficult to comprehend. What controls them is an event of the mind. It is not an idea; they seem unconscious of it. From this arises the complex probability that they do not comprehend themselves.
The three principal physical facts are these:
First, since the war, their ancient power of agriculture has declined. Yet one would have expected this to be the first power restored by all means.
Second, since the war, their industrial power has increased. It is now greater than ever before.
Third, the apparent economic prosperity of France is the first wonder of Europe.
It cannot be that the decline of French agriculture is owing to the scars of war. The scars are deep. Emotionally and politically, they are deep. Physically, as touching the product of the fields,
Nevertheless it is clear that France, hitherto potentially self-sustaining in food, with a precious economic equilibrium between industry and agriculture, has set her feet in a new road. If she pursues it, then more and more, like England, she will buy her food, exchanging for it the products of her fabricating skill and artistry''.
It is the immemorial way of empire, already old in the time of ancient Greece.
Meanwhile, of course, the price of bread is rising, to everybody's wonder, and the French parliament, in the silly way of parliaments, votes 100,000,000 francs to make the price behave.
The food imports of France now are greater than before the war, amounting to nearly 4,500,000 tons annually; her exports are correspondingly greater of such things as wines, perfumes, soaps, silks, cotton and woollen textiles.
The spectacle is pleasing. It makes one feel very genial. And one asks what is wrong. Why is it saic there is anything wrong? Is prosperity not its owr witness? The people are better off. Therefore thei-new way is right. The method pays. They can afforc to buy their food.
Yet there is a grotesque contradiction. What is wrong is intangible. You do not see it.
Notwithstanding the material prosperity that is the envy of other countries; notwithstanding the higher standards of living, the greater well-being of people, the brilliant trade record, the increase of industrial power of which the translation is what you see- despite or because-the financial condition of France is desperate.
Since the war the value of the franc has fallen from eighteen cents to less than five, and although it has recovered a little, nobody can imagine that it will ever go back to where it was. The government's credit is low and running out. Its bonds sell at a discount even among its own people; and how to balance the state budget-that is, how to make income equal outgo and bring the state back to a condition of solvency- is a problem of such difficulty that there seems no immediate solution. The rich have been discovered trying to get their capital out of France because they think it

The Budget-Mr. Hoey


Mr. McMASTER:: Not bad for a country
ruined by free trade.


Robert Alexander Hoey: During this debate statements were also made in an attempt to show

The Budget-Mr. Hoey
that American industries, French and German industries, were driving the industries of Great Britain into the sea. I do not know if that was the exact statement he used but that was the substance of it. The hon. member for Fort William and Rainy River in reply to a question some time ago made this statement:
I am not saying that it favours the manufacturer. England is a free trade country and the fact that they do not favour the manufacturer is one of the reasons that to-day the manufacturers of England are finding it difficult to carry on their business because protectionist Germany, the United States and France are dumping their stuff into England. That is the reason the manufacturers are being put out of business.
I have here a statement made by Sir Charles W. Macara on the cotton industry, and I do not think anyone will question his authority to speak on that industry, in Great Britain at least. Referring to the depressed condition of the industry at the time he spoke, he said:
I have shown again and again that Lancashire has nothing to fear in the matter of foreign competition, given an ample supply of the raw material and control of the output of yarn and cloth scientifically, to meet the vicissitudes inseparable from a great international trade.
I should like to direct the attention of the Acting Minister of Finance (Mr. Robb) to the next statement, "It is all a question of proper organization":
At the time of writing, a telling object lesson comes to my notice. Two important American spinners and manufacturers, with whom I have been discussing cotton trade matters, inform me that it is still impossible to put down mills in America, even with the considerable reduction in the price of machinery and building, at less than double the cost of building and equipping mills in Lancashire, and Lancashire mills still cost fully double the pre-war rate. To this has to be added the further handicap that Lancashire operatives can spin finer and better yarn than is produced in America from cotton of a somewhat cheaper and lower grade than is used in the United States. These two circumstances combined must give Lancashire an enormous advantage in the markets of the world, especially when it is taken into consideration that America is, perhaps, farther advanced in the art of cotton manufacture than any other foreign country.
I quote that statement actuated by a twofold purpose. In the first place I want to show that the Americans are not driving British industries into the sea; indeed the Americans are demanding to-day higher tariffs on cotton goods coming from Great Britain into that country. But Sir Charles Macara attributes that, not to normal trade but to the fact that there was a price war amongst the cotton manufacturers of England which led to a slaughter of prices and to a consequent demand for 'greater protection on the part of the American manufacturer. I have quoted the passage, I say, to show that the industries in 119i
Great Britain are not being driven to the wall in the sense that some people think. No one will doubt the authorities I have quoted, and I believe I have established that contention. In the second place, I have submitted the quotation to base a question upon it. How can we possibly hope to build up a cotton industry in this country to compete with the cotton industry of Great Britain, organized as it is there, without imposing upon the Canadian consumers for perhaps half a century an almost unbearable load? It is quite true that there are certain lines in which the Americans excel and in which perhaps in a sense the Britishers are not quite on the same level. But unless our manufacturers here endeavour to specialize I cannot see that they have a chance in the world in the next half century of competing successfully with the British manufacturers. The only possible way in which they could compete would be by lifting our tariff schedules up considerably higher than they are at tihe present time.


Mr. ARTHURS:: Has the hon. gentleman any figures as to how many industries in Great Britain are protected under the Safeguarding of Industries Act?


Robert Alexander Hoey: The Safeguarding of Industries Act has been abolished. I will tell the hon. gentleman this, that the cotton industry has certainly not been protected under the Safeguarding of Industries Act. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have taken up altogether too much time but there are just a few general observations I desire to make before concluding. I have been thinking for some time that it might be wholesome if we had brought down and submitted to the House a statement showing the entire obligations of the Canadian people-a statement, I mean, showing not only our federal obligations but our provincial and municipal undertakings as well, together with other obligations of an almost private nature. If we had such a statement as that one might well pause and ask who is the real owner of this country. And I am of the opinion that the submission of such a statement would shock the Canadian people, as they have not so far been shocked, into a sense of the absolute need for drastic retrenchment and economies in public expenditures, economies not only in the federal field but in the provincial and municipal spheres as well. I may be growing unduly pessimistic in my old age but I cannot help feeling that this young nation is losing its enthusiasm; I cannot help feeling that Canada at this juncture is losing nerve and showing evidence of drift. I do not know to what extent governments are respon-

The Budget-Mr. McKillop
sible for that condition; they may not be responsible at all. It may be that the Canadian people are suffering too much from government intervention, from government subsidies and doles and from government interference; and it may be that a temporary withdrawal of interference in a great many of these respects would throw the Canadian people back upon their own initiative and upon their own resources and would exercise a wholesome influence on the public life of the country. During the course of a speech delivered before a convention of the United Farmers held in Brandon some months ago, after I had attempted for an hour to evolve and outline a policy which I considered would be measurably equitable to all sections of this country, I incidentally made the statement that if the different sections of Canada could not be held together on a basis of justice I did not see why they should be held together at all. I do not know why that statement was broadcast from ocean to ocean. There was no doubt in my mind at that time that such a policy could be evolved; I never doubted that for a moment. But if such a policy is going to be evolved it will require courage; it will require men of exceptional and outstanding ability, men who will have to displace some of us even if they come into public life at tremendous sacrifices.
It seems to me that unless such men are prepared to make the sacrifices and give this country a lead, the outlook is far from promising. If such men are prepared to come in-and frankly I do not care whether they come in as Liberals or Conservatives or Progressives or members of the Ginger group, provided they are men of ability, courageous and fearless men, and patriotic in the truest sense of the term-if such men are available in this crisis, then I have no fear as to the ultimate outcome. As my concluding statement, Mr, Speaker, allow me to read into the record an excerpt from a speech delivered of Ramsay MacDonald, ex-Prime Minister of Great Britain:
There will be no more grand political days, no more political giants, until politics is raised from being a hasty auctioneering scramble to being an expression of large hope and inspiring ideals.
Mr. HUGH C. McKILLOP (West Elgin): Mr. Speaker, the budget which has been brought down by the Acting Minister of Finance (Mr. Robb) is, to say the least, quite a complicated affair. From the great jumble of figures it is hard for the average taxpayer to tell how much the Dominion is in debt. In fact, if it were to be shown to the average citizen without his being told what it was,
[Mr. Hoey.J
he would at once come to the conclusion that it was the very latest in cross word puzzles. Unfortunately conditions in this country today are very serious, much more- so than the average citizen dares admit. When we think of the great amount of money going out of the country every year for goods that we can produce, when we look around and see so many industrial plants standing idle, so many working men without work, taxes going higher each year, expenditure increasing apace, new forms of taxation being invented so as to raise more money from the already overburdened taxpayers,-when all these things are considered, is it any wonder that the people are getting so restless and murmuring, "When is there going to be a sto-p to this? When is the burden going to be lightened? When is the economy that the Prime Minister was so fond of recommending before coming into office going to be put into effect?" This government has been in power for four years, and as yet there is no sign of economy. To-day over 2,000 industrial plants are closed down, thousands of unemployed are walking our streets, thousands of our working men with their families have left Canada to reside in the country to the south of us. All this I claim is wrong. The loss of so many working men is nothing short of a national disaster. While we all realize that agriculture is our basic industry, yet I contend t.ha* a satisfied working man is one of Canada's best assets; and further, I contend that there is not a more loyal or more law-abidin

 class of citizens than our working men, and it should be the duty of the government to give them every encouragement to stay here. I am convinced that it is not doles that the working man wants. All he asks is a square deal, steady work and wages that he can live on, raise his family and educate them for the battle of life. That is all the average working man asks, and surely it is not too much. Now, let me say that I hold no brief for bolshevism or bolsheviks. The working man that I refer to is the sincere and honest working man, a man who wants 'o give an honest day's work for an honest day's pay, and I am satisfied that 90 per cent of our working men belong to that class.
Since the debate began, Mr. Speaker, a great mass of figures has been quoted to prove arguments, and while I do not intend to weary the House further along this line, still I wish to express my very strong opinion that practically all our manufacturing industries need protection, and I propose to refer to two of them to emphasize this need. Take our boot and shoe industry. As is well known,

The Budget-Mr. McKillop
we have 190 boot and shoe factories scattered over the Dominion from the Atlantic to the Pacific, representing an investment of millions of dollars and employing thousands of hands in the manufacture and marketing of their goods. These factories have a very heavy payroll and spend a lot of money for raw material, and I think all hon. members will agree with me that they are a great asset, to the Dominion. But, unfortunately for them, the tariff has been lowered to an alarming extent, allowing outside competition from countries where labour is so much cheaper and other conditions so unequal that our factories cannot overcome the handicap. I *would draw attention to the fact that while our duty on shoes from the United Kingdom is only 15f .per cent, British shoes going into New Zealand have to meet a duty of 28i per cent, and into Australia a duty of 38i per cent. Anyone will understand what this means to the Canadian manufacturer. It simply means that the Canadian duty on imported British shoes barely offsets the difference in wage costs alone, leaving no protection to the Canadian industry against 'higher costs of material, higher taxes and other factors. In this connection let me read a clipping from a publication of recent date dealing with this matter:
Importations of British boots and shoes into Canada increased remarkably during the 12 months ended February last, as compared with the preceding 12 months. Figures issued by the Dominion Bureau of Statistics show that the value of British boots and shoes imported sprang from $663,455 in the 12 months ended February, 1924, to $1,053,078 in the 12-month period just concluded.
This is one result of the lowering of the tariff protection, and there is the further result that the whole boot and shoe industry is headed for bankruptcy unless the present unhappy conditions are righted.
There is another class to whom I wish to refer briefly-our vegetable growers, more commonly known as truck gardeners. This is a business that a great many are engaged in throughout Canada, and especially in the counties of Essex, Kent and Elgin, in the province of Ontario, where many thousands of dollars are invested in greenhouses and land suitable for the production of this line of produce. Owing to the difference between the climatic conditions of this country and those of the southern part Of the United States, where vegetation is much earlier, the southern producer has a great advantage- that of earlier marketing. As a consequence, when our producers here are ready to market their crops they find the home market
flooded with vegetables from the southern states. One result is that many Of our producers cannot find a market for their produce at all, and another is that thousands and thousands of good Canadian dollars find their way to the south for commodities which are produced here a little later in the season.
I contend, Mr. Speaker, that these truck gardeners should have protection, and plenty of it; I am convinced that they need it. In this connection I remember reading of an interview between a deputation of onion growers from Essex county a few years ago, in Windsor, with the then Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) and the hon. Minister of Railways (Mr. Graham)-and by the way, I am sorry the Minister of Railways is not in his seat at the moment. The deputation was from the constituency of the Min-inister of Railways himself, and they asked that more duty be put on onions coming into this country. The answer of the Minister of Finance was:	"It is not our policy to put
more duty on anything, is it, George?" The Minister of Railways replied: "I did not say that in my election campaign." I presume from that remark of the hon. Minister of Railways that he gave the Minister of Finance to understand that in his election campaign he had made promises to the electors in 'this connection. Well, it was only one of a good many promises made by members of this government to be elected on, but soon forgotten. The onion growers are still waiting for the minister to keep his word and give them the protection they so manifestly need.
Since coming to this House, Mr. Speaker, I have at every session asked the government to put a higher duty on beans coming into this country. At present the duty is twenty-five cents per bushel, while on beans going into the United States the duty is $1.05 per bushel, I contend that this is not fair to our bean producers, and why the government persists in leaving this duty where it is is beyond me. If there is any good reason, I would like to hear it. If any hon. member of the government can tell me the reason, I would like to hear him explain why this duty is left year after year the way it is. I will wait a moment for an answer. As no answer is forthcoming, I will take it for granted there is no reason, and that the government knows the bean producers should have more protection.
I wish to give the House, Mr. Speaker, a statement which will show the quantities of beans imported into this country during the fiscal year ended' March 31, 1924, and
186S


Mr. C. G. POWER (Quebec South):: Mr. Speaker, though I have been a member of this House for -a number of years I have never yet ventured to address it on the budget. I only do so to-night because by custom and tradition it is the time-honoured occasion on which his subjects and followers lay before the King their grievances before they vote the supply necessary to -carry on his government.
I wish to congratulate th-e government upon the budget as brought down, not -because there was a great deal in it, but rather because there was very -little in it. We have arrived at a stage in our country's development when it behooves the government to make haste slowly, to proceed with prudence and caution. Admittedly,, and -undoubtedly, conditions -in this -country are not good. Trade is bad, business is bad, and whatever we may say, the state of our national finances is not good. We have not reached the stage where we can afford to tinker with the tariff. Last year we did -make certain changes in -the tariff, and -there -are some who think no very great good was done, -but at any rate there is one very sure thing, no very great -harm was done.
I agree to. a large extent with what has been said 'by my hon. friend from Springfield (Mr. Hoey) in his -admirable address this evening, that we need -tariff revision, but as I said before, we must proceed slowly. The tariff is full of -contradictions, anomalies and inconsistencies. It -must be revised!, and it must be revised by persons who have the time and the ability to study it, and make recommendations with regard to it which will be for the general good -of the country. They must study the conditions of every -trade and of every industry -to see that these industries and trades may be carried on in the best possible manner, always having reference to the -general welfare of the country. To that end the government very wisely, I think, decided to create a tariff board, not a tariff board which

The Budget-Mr. Power
would be independent of the government, which of its own initiative would decide what should be the fiscal policy of this country, for our constitutional system does not permit of any outside dictation. The revenues to carry on the king's government must be raised by the king's ministers, who must decide upon the policy which is to be fallowed in order to raise those revenues. This 'board, as I understand it, is to be of a purely advisory mature, a board which will study the conditions of industry, and having studied those conditions and having obtained the fullest possible information, report to the Minister of Finance, who then with the aid of his colleagues will frame the government policy and be responsible for it on the floor of this House and in the country.
My hon. friend from Springfield asks whether this board is to be instructed to base their recommendations upon the principle either of free trade or of protection. So far as I am concerned, Sir, I would tell the tariff board to pay no attention to the principle either of free trade or of protection. I would tell the tariff board to give us advice as to the conditions of each industry, irrespective of whether the policy of the government should be one of free trade or of protection. To my mind, Sir, there is no such thing as principle in the tariff. The tariff is only a question of opportunity, after all. Each industry must be judged' on its own merits, and on the conditions of the country at the particular time the study is made. If the tariff were based on principle, how is it that in a tariff such as we have, admittedly protectionist, there are so many articles on the free list? If it is based on principle, how is it that there are some articles on the free list, and yet those very same articles are dutiable when utilized in some other industry? It seems to me, Sir, this is to a large extent due to the very thing which we wish to get away from by the creation of a tariff board-to government by delegation. Delegations from some particular industry, delegations representing interested parties, call on the Minister of Finance before the budget is to be made, and very often meet, with a sympathetic hearing, and various articles are placed on the free list, or are made dutiable, irrespective of their relation to the rest of the tariff. This has occurred, I think, under high protectionist Tories and under tariff stability Liberals. I think both parties have been remiss in this respect. A tariff board can make a clean-up of the whole situation, and make our tariff consistent all the way through. We shall then eventually arrive at some sort
of a policy to which we may at any rate for a considerable time be able to adhere.
We have heard a great deal in this House during the past year on tariff stability. I think it is admitted that this very same system of government by deputation and delegation has on many occasions done away with tariff stability, and the very men in this House who have been urging us to stick to the Laurier-Fielding tariff as a suitable tariff would possibly be the very men who some day, when it suited a particular industry in which they were interested, would come before the Minister of Finance and the government of the day and ask for tariff changes.
I hope that when this tariff board comes into operation it will make a study of the British preference. As I understand, from my reading of recent political history, the British preference perhaps has been a good thing, perhaps is a good thing now; I do not know; but it has been said, and perhaps with truth, that after all the British preference was only introduced by Sir Wilfrid Laurier in 1896 in order to show the Tories that he could be as loyal as they were. It may have benefited the country too, incidentally, but I think the principal reason was a political one. That reproach to the Liberals now having disappeared it might be well for this tariff board to look into it carefully and to see if certain industries were not injuriously affected by the British preference.
One of the only things of importance introduced in the budget was the increase of duty on slack coal. I think the government deserves congratulations on that .point, and I hope the provision will be of some benefit to Nova Scotia. That province is going through a period of hard times, owing to high freight rates, prohibitive tariffs on the American side, and other reasons too numerous to mention. For years Nova Scotia has not obtained much profit from confederation. It is, in fact, one of the few provinces which were coerced into confederation. It has suffered patiently, courageously; it has not attempted to form sectional groups with a view to bludgeoning or blackmailing either of the political parities into granting it special favours. It has, as I said, suffered courageously and patiently without complaint; and now, at the time of its trial I think it is the duty, as it should be the pleasure, of the remaining provinces of Canada to treat it fairly and generously; to attempt, in so far as possible, to equalize its opportunities with those of other provinces and to allow it ito derive the best possible advantage from the resources which nature has given it. It is to be hoped, however, that the
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miners 'of Nova Scotia will profit, in some degree at least, by the increase of duty which has been placed on the products on which they labour. It would be a calamity, a catastrophe, if sdhemers such as Wolvin, and bullies such as MfiLurg profit in any way from what it intended for the benefit of the whole people of that province. I do not desire to-night to enter into a discussion of the merits or demerits of the miners' case or that of the Beseo company in the warfare in Which they are at present engaiged. But let me say this: Owing to a turn of the wheel of fortune, or perhaps through mismanagement on the part of the military authorities, I found myself at one time a lieutenant in the third Toronto bat' talion. Drafted to us there were sixty or seventy-five Nova Scotia miners. What men from Quebec and from Nova Scotia were doing in a Toronto battalion, and why we were sent there I 'have never been able to find out; but all those seventy-five were among the bravest, the truest, the most patient, the most hardworking and the most courageous -of tlhe whole battalion. I cannot believe, Sir, that those men-those that are left of them-their brothers and their fathers have here in Canada become malingerers and bolshevists. I cannot believe that men who were so brave on the field of battle and were so readty to do anything that was asked of them would be to-day deliberately committing sabotage and refusing to do the work which they could do.
Another innovation has been introduced into this year's budget, and I hope a successful one, that of placing an export tax on power. There are a number of theories which have been evolved in this country in relation to the disposal of our natural resources. It is no't for me to go into these theories and to discuss them here to-night. Time does not permit of that and I do not think the occasion is ripe for it but I will say this:	It ill
becomes a party which allowed the whole cost of the war to be borne by future generations when it could have taxed its own friends the profiteers when it need not have issued tax-exempt bonds, to say what those future generations shall do with the resources which Providence has put at their disposal. It ill becomes also the party which for the past few years has been preaching up ana down this country that we are bankrupt or on the verge of bankruptcy, to prevent us from using those natural resources which we have in order to put us on our feet. As well tell a man who has been ruined in his business but has victory bonds in the bank, that he must not sell those bonds but must allow him-
self to go bankrupt. We should be allowed if we are on the verge of bankruptcy, at any rate to use what we have in order to place ourselves once more in a sound position. Furthermore it is hardly the time, when trade is bad, when the same party of which I have spoken declares that business is bad throughout the country, to dislocate industries such as those carrying on the exportation of pulpwood, of nickel, or asbestos, until at least such times as we have attained a certain state of normalcy. Then the occasion will be propitious to discuss whether or not the export of our natural resources should be prohibited. The government has decided, wisely I think, to profit to some extent by the use of these natural resources, and by placing an export duty on power a certain amount of revenue will be derived. I hardly think however the tax will affect the people of Canada and we will have found one means at least which potentially will become of great value to the Dominion as a whole.
I had intended saying a word or two in reference to the Petersen contract seeing that I was unable to obtain an opportunity of speaking when the matter last came before the House. I am glad to say that the Prime Minister has enlarged the scope of -the committee to which this matter has been referred so as to permit any suggestion other than that contained in the Petersen contract to be advanced. I would here make one suggestion and it is this: Let the government instead of entering into a contract with Sir William Petersen use its own Canadian mercantile marine. Not to administer it itsdif; rather than do that I would be prepared to vote the Minister of Defence two or three million dollars to sink the ships; but let them give the ships to Sir William Petersen. Let him run the ships. Apparently he is a very good man. In that way we might break the combine and we would save seven or eight million dollars a year. There is no doubt to my mind that there is a combine and that it has been disadvantageous 10 this country. That it has injuriously affected our trade I think there is no doubt. It has, I am sure, affected the interests of certain Canadian ports, and among others the port and harbour of Quebec, which brings me to a matter which I hardly like to mention at this stage, but which I am forced to bring to the notice of this House since I have no other means at my disposal of drawing to the attention of the government this very urgent matter. For years, Mr. Speaker, as you are probably aware, the equipment and development of the port of Quebec has been made a species of political

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football at the hand's of all parties, of all shades and colours.


Mr. FORKE:: Not the Progressives.


Charles Gavan Power: They have not had a
chance yet. Since very early childhood I have listened to glowing reports of the future of this port, as to what was to be done by this or that party, or what should ;be done by this or that party. We have lived on promises and we have hungered for achievement. Let me say, Sir, that I very much fear that our situation has not been very much improved of late. I took part in the elections of 1904, 1908 and 1911. I fought the elections of 1917 and 1921, and in all these elections the principal if not the only issue was the best means of awakening Quebec from its age-long slumber.


Mr. MANION:: Change sides.


Charles Gavan Power: We tried that and did not
succeed. My hon. friend has changed sides. I will say for my hon. friend right here and now that if I do change sides I will not show the same bitterness towards my former friends that he displays.


Robert James Manion: I am not bitter.


Charles Gavan Power: These questions have been
before the public of Quebec as long as I can remember, and hitherto no party has succeeded in giving us the satisfaction to which we consider we are entitled. The matter has now become more than a local issue. The development of the port of Quebec is a matter of national interest. Not only this, but the members of parliament, representatives of the people, representatives of the cabinet and the government, have pledged themselves to perform certain works and to do certain things for the harbour and should these promises not be fulfilled and Should this work not be done, a feeling of distrust and disappointment will spread through our body politic, which will be disastrous not only to our province but to the whole of Canada. To my mind a promise made to the electorate should be just as loyally observed as a promise made to the ordinary man in the ordinary course of business. Promises have been made and these promises have not been fulfilled. One of the promises I made shortly after the last election was that if the present government treats the people of Quebec in the same fashion as the past government treated them I will not be behindhand in criticizing it as bitterly, as harshly and as severely as I have criticized
any government, and this promise I intend to keep. We have been told time and again that legislation in this regard is to come down. We have waited, as I have said, for almost a century. There is yet time to repair the blunder and to put a little more energy into the plans and projects of the government. But the time is short, and unless legislation is brought down within the next few days or weeks, I am very much afraid that everything which has been done hitherto will be of no avail. The money which was voted last year will be wasted, and the people of the city of Quebec will be profoundly disappointed. I hope for the honour of the representatives elected for that city, for the honour of its representatives in the cabinet, and for the honour of the party to which I belong, that some means will soon be taken to dissipate the distrust which is in the minds of the people of Quebec.
To return to a more pleasant subject. I hear in the corridors and I read in the press that we are about to have an election. Why we should have an election I do not know, but apparently the newspapers think we should have one. I do not know anybody who really wants one very badly, and I do not know that the country wants one; nor do I know that the country would benefit by one. I do not see that we on this side of the House would obtain a sufficient majority to control as we would wish, and as for the hon. gentleman leading the official opposition, he cannot win; the Progressives cannot win, and as for the thirteen goody-goodies, it is a ten-to-one chance that they will be left at the post. So that, as nobody is very greatly interested in having the elections, it might be just as well to postpone them until another year, when perhaps the goody-goodies will be sufficiently organized to force an election, and they might win. The state of politics at the present time reminds me somewhat of an anecdote which I read somewhere. It related to the days of good King Charles. In those days there was no Ontario Temperance Act, there were no Good resolutions, no Brown resolutions, and apparently people lived a very simple and happy life. King Charles, according to his own people, "never said a foolish thing and never did a wise one." There was someone who expected to succeed to his throne, Jamies, Duke of York. James was dour.


Robert Forke: A Scotchman.


Charles Gavan Power: A Scotchman, bigoted, narrow. One day he complained to King Charles that there was a plot against the king's life, Charles said to him, "Never mind, James, they
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will never kill me to make you king." The same remark might very easily be applied to a certain quarter of this House. Lest my hon. friends the Progressives take heart and think they may be called upon to play the role of William of Orange, I will tell them right now that the monopoly of that colour happens to be in Toronto. I rather suspect too that they will be more likely to play the role of one whom they resemble somewhat in their overwhelming ambition and possibly from the circumstances surrounding their birth-the Duke of Monmouth. And I warn them that they have a very fair chance of suffering the same fate and of being massacred by Kirk's Good Lambs. Seeing that such is the situation, I think we ought to have a quiet and peaceful session; we should not allow the fact that outside there is considerable noise of an election to disturb our equilibrium or the even tenor of our ways. We are a quiet parliament; we are doing very nicely; and there is no necessity for upsetting things. Let us by all means carry on. We were elected for a certain period of time and I do not think that anyone wants very much to throw us out, unless it is somebody who wants to get our job. But let him be patient and wait. Why should we not carry on a little while longer?
To be serious for a moment, I think the times are getting better and it is not in the interests of business to have business disturbed. We are on the eve possibly of a renewal of our ancient prosperity and the country needs above all to be left alone to work out its own destiny. Instead1 of squabbling over party politics,, instead of Wasting our time and the country's money by discussing theoretical questions, problems which may or may not arise, we should do the best we can to encourage every legitimate enterprise, every legitimate business and industry in the country. It is our duty to set our shoulders to the wheel and do everything possible to help the country out of the state in which it is at present. As my hon. friend from Springfield (Mr. Hoey) said, let us all do the best we can. It is impossible until a new parliament is elected to have these supermen of whom he speaks; but let us endeavour in the meantime to be, if not supermen, common ordinary men doing our duty by our constituents and by the country.
On motion of Mr. McMaster the debate was adjourned.
On motion ,of Mr. Graham the House adjourned at 10.25 p.m.
Monday, April 6, 1925