1925-05-15

[Stage Direction]
Mr. VIEN presented the fourth report of the Committee on Banking and Commerce.


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 130, from the Senate, for the relief of Lillian Yaffe.-Mr. Hanson.
Bill No. 131, from the Senate, for the relief of Charles William Dickinson.-Mr. Hanson.
Bill No. 132, from the Senate, for the relief of Charles Murray Cramsie.-Mr. Baldwin.
Bill No. 133, from the Senate, for the relief of Frederick William Mallyon.-Mr. Speak-man.	.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. GEORGE BLACK (Yukon):: I desire to call to the attention of the government the fact that return No. 176 made pursuant to an order of the House for copies of certain letters, correspondence, and so on, between January 1, 1922, and February 25, 1924, is incomplete, there being nothing in the documents filed bearing a date prior to June 29, 1923. The correspondence should begin with the 1st of January, 1922, and I should like to have the rest of the return brought down if possible.


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: What is the subject of the correspondence?


George Black: The order reads:
For a copy of all letters, telegrams, documents and correspondence, between January 1, 1922 and February 25, 1924, between R. H. Gale and any minister or official of the Dominion government; and, between R. H. Gale and the Vancouver Harbour Commission, and between Vancouver Harbour Commissioners and any minister or official of the Dominion government; and, between any representative of the Spillers interests and the Harbour Commissioners, and, or any minister of the Crown and official of the government, regarding the negotiations for lease or sale of certain waterfront property in the Vancouver harbour, upon which is now erected what is known as the Spillers elevator, and which property lies immediately east of the Vancouver Harbour Commissioners elevator No. 1. Also, copy of any letters, agreements, schedules of fees, assignments, transfers, and other documents appertaining thereto.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: If the return is incomplete it must have been due to an oversight and1 the government will seek to have it made complete as soon as possible.
[The Chairman.]



ALLEGED FRUIT COMBINE

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. L. J. LADNER (Vancouver South):: There has appeared in the Vancouver Daily Province a headline article announcing that the government has determined to start prosecutions under the Lewis Duncan report against the alleged fruit combine. There has been no announcement in the House that I know of and I would ask the government whether there is any official authority for the statement.


Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice):: I am sorry the Minister of Labour
(Mr. Murdock) is not here; he is dealing with the matter. I may inform my hon. friend however that counsel has been instructed to institute proceedings.


Leon Johnson Ladner: Is the prosecution cooperating with the provincial governments, or is it entirely on the part of the federal authorities?


Ernest Lapointe: Counsel is instructed to communicate with the various attorneys general interested in the matter, but I do not know whether they will take part in the proceedings independently or not.



DIVORCE


[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. JOS. T. SHAW (West Calgary):	I
beg to direct the attention of the Prime Minister to order No. 32 on to-day's order paper, for the third reading of Bill No. 4 respecting divorce. May we anticipate an early opportunity for the third reading of this bill?
William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am not in a position
ait the present time to say what it may be possible to do with reference to this bill as well as to other orders that appear on the same page. It will depend largely on the progress we make with legislation whether or not that opportunity can be given soon or late.


Mr. SHAW:: Perhaps the Prime Minister
may have overlooked the assurance given in connection with this matter and for that reason I would refer him to the Hansard report which indicates the conditions upon which I consented on at least one occasion to the bill standing over.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Any assurance given will be carried out, but I cannot at the moment indicate when the opportunity will come.

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*	DEPARTMENT OF MINES
The House in committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
Mines and Geological Survey-for organization and equipment of the explosives division, under the Explosives Act, chap. 31, 4-5 George V., $10,000.
Mr. MEIGHE'N:	Will the minister indicate what work the division is doing now?


Hon. CHARLES STEWART (Argenteuil, Minister of Mines):: They are doing the
same duties they have performed since the act was instituted. These comprise the inspection of all explosives, their storage, the distances at which they are allowed to be stored from industries or dwellings, general supervision over storage, and an examination into the chemical composition of the explosives themselves that are offered for sale.


Mr. MANION:: Is not this something that should be under the provincial authorities?


Charles A. Stewart: It comes
under the federal act of 1914. If there is to be uniformity it should be under the federal government; I do not understand why it should be in the hands of the province.


Mr. MEIGHEN:: It does not appear to
be a distinctly Dominion responsibility; is it not provincial? I know it was started some years ago and the minister is not responsible for initiating it. But what the hon. member has in mind is that the federal government has no special jurisdiction in respect of explosives. It is really just as much a matter for the provinces as is the question of health or any other matter of a civil or private character. In these days, when we are trying to contract our responsibilities, it might be well to consider whether it should not go back to the provinces.


Charles A. Stewart: I do not
understand it was ever taken from them.


Arthur Meighen: No, they never had it.


Charles A. Stewart: It has been the function of the federal government. The matter never occurred to me, because the function is not carried on so extensively as during the war period, when munitions, for instance, were under supervision; but it is reduced now largely to advice being given to mining companies who are using explosives, just as chemical analysis is made of cement and so on.


Arthur Meighen: The Dominion government analyses explosives.
3231


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, if
necessary.


Arthur Meighen: And gives certifcates as to the power of the explosives.


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Mr. STEVENS:: It is in the nature of research work.


Charles A. Stewart: No; you
may be purchasing blasting powder for mining purposes, you are doubtful about the strength, and you appeal to Colonel Ogilvie who will attach a certificate. The work is of that character. Then we have the examination or inspection work for safety purposes, and as to the proper storage of dangerous explosives of this character, and taking care of them for the protection of human life.


Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: Has the
minister ever taken into consideration, in view of the Geneva investigation, the necessity arising for the government to take over the operation of munitions and explosive factories in this country? Has he in mind any plan in regard to that?


Charles A. Stewart: No, I have not given the matter of taking over the manufacture of explosives any consideration. We content ourselves with this proposition for the moment.


Edward Joseph Garland: I might
suggest that it would be well for this government, or any other subsequent government to seriously consider this aspect of the explosive and munition industry. The reason I make the suggestion is that I am convinced that sooner or later the countries that are considering the possibility of establishing permanent peace, or as near as humanly possible establishing such a condition, will have to undertake either a complete state of control of munitions, explosives and so on, or a monopoly of the manufacture of them.


Arthur Meighen: How many are employed in the branch?


Charles A. Stewart: Ten.


Arthur Meighen: This work will be costing the country about $30,000, or probably $35,000 or $40,000 a year. Is that estimate about right?


Charles A. Stewart: The duties
of the branch are to examine plants; and in order to carry on any sort of reasonable inspection or reasonable protection, I would not think that would be too large an amount to spend.

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Arthur Meighen: What was in my mind
was this:	The branch was developed in the
first place on account of the tremendous explosive shipments, and also as a safeguard to the public. When the branch was instituted we were shipping explosives in very large quantities through the country. As I recall the work of the branch, it was largely devoted to seeing to the proper storage and transmission under civil conditions of the explosives. We are now past that time entirely, and, so far as explosives are concerned, we are using them for civil purposes only, and consequently it does not seem unreasonable that the provinces should be asked to do what is undoubtedly their work, as the work is necessary.


Charles A. Stewart: It may be
a question as to the work being done by the provinces, but I think my hon. friend will agree with me that it could be done much more efficiently from one central point. He will also agree with me that explosives at best are subject more or less to the danger of explosion, and consequent serious loss of life and property. So far as I can remember, we have not had any serious accident recently. It is true the staff was very much larger when we were passing through war days, but now that there is only a civil responsibility it has been greatly reduced.


Arthur Meighen: If ever the minister's
authority to place restrictions on transmission and storage of explosives for civil purposes is questioned, I would strongly advise him not to follow the obstreperous conduct of the Minister of Labour (Mr. Murdock) and carry it to the Privy Council, and then quietly and with dignity withdraw.
Mr. STEWART	(Argenteuil):	My hon
friend will admit that explosives must be carried by the transportation companies .passing through the provinces?


Arthur Meighen: Yes.


Charles A. Stewart: And the question of jurisdiction may foe seriously questioned.


Arthur Meighen: I think it is cheaper in the end.


Mr. CRERAR:: Is there any obligation on the part of individuals or concerns owning or controlling these explosives to have them analysed and reported upon?


Charles A. Stewart: I do not
want to raise the question of jurisdiction; I would much rather not, but as we are operating at the moment, yes. The question of whe-

ther we have authority might be doubted, but we are doing it, and they have to comply.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Is any fee charged for the service rendered by the department?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


Arthur Meighen: Should there not be a fee?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is the question I was going to ask.


Charles A. Stewart: In case of practical inspection and inspection of magazines, yes, but not in the case of smaller inspections.


Arthur Meighen: Should not the matter of certificates as to the quality and power of the explosives be covered by the owner?


Charles A. Stewart: That is
usually covered by the factory inspection.


Arthur Meighen: What is the revenue of that branch of the department?


Charles A. Stewart: I cannot
answer the question accurately, but it is in tlhe neighbourhood of $2,200 or $2,300.


Arthur Meighen: Very little.


Charles A. Stewart: Very little. We are not featuring the fee part of it. There are two things -to be kept in mind; the protection of the public, and the guarantee of tlhe material in the explosive itself.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It seeims to me that it would be quite proper and appropriate that some charge should be made for that service. I may be wrong, but there is certainly a iprimciple involved in it.


Charles A. Stewart: I am not
going to quarrel with my hon. friend about whether or not we should do it, but it seems to me it is rather important service. I quite see the force of his argument. If the question were raised as to jurisdiction, possibly we would find we were in tlhe same difficulty that we experienced in other cases; but inasmuch as those explosives are being carried about the country, it seems to .me we are warranted in spending a reasonable amount of money in the protection of human life alone, disregarding any question of property damage. If the expenditure does not exceed $30,000, it is not a very great sum for this purpose.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not agree there. If
the expenditure were $150,000 I would judge from the minister's remarks that he might argue that a charge should be made, but because it is a small amount he says it is not of much consequence. In the inspection

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and weighing of grain, for instance, the government make a charge for the service rendered. Why should not a charge be made for such services as are rendered under this act?


Charles A. Stewart: There is
something in that argument.


Arthur Meighen: There is a lot in it. It may not be so vast in consequence here, but I know I was impressed, especially toward the end of the term of office of the late government, with the fact that a very considerable revenue could be secured, and ought in principle to be secured, from many of the services rendered by the crown, in the Department of the Interior as well as in other departments such as Railways and Canals and Trade and Commerce. It is true the Grain Act is a relatively new act and there, on account of the large amount involved, the principle has been rigidly followed; in fact, some say it more than pays its own way, but it is about the only thing that does. There are some services rendered in various departments of government where if a thorough inquiry was made, if somebody was asked to give his attention to the question, he would find that the people who get the benefit would pay the money, and ought to pay it. That would very much relieve the general taxpayer, who should not be asked to assist this, that and the other man in his own calling.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is a very noticable
tendency in recent years to extend what are called services, ostensibly on the ground that they are for the public good when they are really for the benefit of private concerns or persons; and the principle is a dangerous one. It simply increases the burden laid on the taxpayer. I suggest that the minister consider the question seriously. Perhaps he could dig at least enough revenue out of this to meet the cost of administration.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines Branch-
For investigation of mineral resources and deposits; of the mining and metallurgical industries, and of mineral technology; wages, expenses of testing and research laboratories, investigations by Dominion Fuel Board, including salaries and all other
expenses	 $200,000
For publications, English and French, purchase of books, laboratory supplies, in-truments, miscellaneous assistance and contingencies	 40,000
For transportation charges from outlying provinces on ore shipments which may be sent to the ore dressing plant of the mines branch at Ottawa for testing purposes, under regulations approved by the Minister of Mines	 5,000
207i
Mines Branch-Con.
To compensate J. H. Fortune for quarters, fuel, light and water supplied him as resident caretaker of the Mines Branch building, Sussex St., vacated because of the necessity of utilizing the caretaker's quarters for storage and laboratory space.. ..	400
Mr. SIMPSON:: The minister has had
under consideration the question of assistance to the development of the iron ore industry; has he arrived at any decision in that connection?


Charles A. Stewart: The department has had a request to join with the Ontario government in assistance to the development of the iron ore industry by way of a subsidy. We are doing a good deal of investigational work, but we did not feel the time had arrived when we could accede to that request.


Mr. FORKE:: What is being done in the
way of investigation of mineral resources?


Charles A. Stewart: For the
division of mineral resources we spend $35,000; division of ore dressing and metallurgy, $60.000; fuel testing, $60,000; ceramics division, ceramics, $6,000; road material, $4,000; Dominion Fuel Board, salaries of staff, $9,000; power fuel survey, $10,000; investigation of the use of wood as an auxiliary fuel in Ontario and Quebec, $5,000; publication of reports, $5,000; special investigations to be carried out by secretary's office, $4,000; investigation of the process for converting fuels high in volatile matter into a form suitable for domestic purposes, $2,000. These are some of the main items.


Robert Forke: Does the government do any prospecting for minerals, on its own account?


Charles A. Stewart: No. We
have a number of geological parties in the field, but it is for the purpose of making public the information we gather; it is not for the purpose of developing for the government.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Can the minister give
us any information with regard to the question of establishing an ore dressing plant in British Columbia?


Charles A. Stewart: When I
came to the department there was a vote in the estimates for the construction of a plant, but we did not go on with the construction; instead we put in a vote for a year or two for the transporting of the ores down here and their testing in the laboratory. However, there was very little advantage taken of that
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provision, and I have cut the vote this year, but we are prepared to make all these tests and carry the ore down free of charge to the prospector.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I think perhaps the main
reason why this has not been taken advantage of is that the distance is great, and the quantity that can be sent is small, and other than in some odd specific cases it would scarcely be applicable. The minister is aware of, and I know he is quite sympathetic with the immense development in mining in British Columbia; the same applies also to northern Ontario and northern Quebec, but I am speaking now of British Columbia particularly, and of the existence there of a great-variety of minerals, some of which are minerals of commercial value, and others of a more complex nature. What struck me when I was over in the Old Country last autumn and saw the display of minerals in the Canadian building at Wembley-not at the government's expense, I want to make that clear-* was this, and I mentioned it to some of the officials in charge. I think'it would have been very desirable if we could have shown in greater exactness and more detail the availability of these minerals, the quantities, and so forth; because I discussed with some industrialists over there certain matters regarding minerals in Canada, and they seemed not to be very well informed.
An ore dressing plant such as has been suggested, if established in British Columbia to deal with some of our complex ores, might be able to find a system of handling them that would enable us to get into the world market minerals that are at present in the country, but are not being recovered at commercial values at the present time. Of course, it would be of tremendous advantage to the country at large if some of these mineral resources could be so developed. I know the difficulty about the establishment of such a plant. There is the question of locality; personally, I am not mentioning locality at all. All I want to see is an ore dresing plant situated where it can be utilized, and that is a question for the minister's officials to deal with.
In addition to that, there is the question of just how to get the plant operating so as to get the most benefit from it. This vote of $5,000 by which ores can be sent in small packages three and in some cases over four thousand miles, coming from northern British Columbia, is not, I submit, of very much value. I am not criticizing the existence of the vote, but I do not think it meets the case. I would suggest to the minister that

this whole question should be taken up again, having in mind a genuine endeavour to market in a commercial way the various metals and minerals that we have in Canada. I have expressed myself imperfectly, but I think the minister will grasp what I mean. I think that the establishment of an ore dressing plant, or some other method, if there is a better one, of ascertaining the values of these ores and working out a commercial process for marketing the minerals would! justify some effort and some expenditure.


Mr. HUMPHREY:: I am in thorough
accord with the remarks of the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens). I am quite convinced, and have been for some time, that it is necessary to have some method of treating and dressing the ores of the different provinces, and especially those found in the province of British Columbia. We have an abundance of complex ores in that province, and it is only necessary for them to be treated to_ a certain extent. If advantage has not been taken of the provision whereby ores can be transported free to the testing station here at Ottawa, I think it is because of the distance, and also because the results of these tests do not go (far enough. I have had representations made to me that while the results obtained from the department arw very good in respect to defining the content of these ores, the department might go further and furnish the values of the minerals that are to be found in these ores. The principal part of this work is really done by the prospector. He goes out into the mountains and discovers certain deposits. He sends samples to the department here to find out what they contain. When he gets the findings, he must go still further and send the result of these tests to the assayer to ascertain the values. I believe it would be of great assistance to the prospector, who is the pioneer in the mining industry, if the department would also furnish the values with the result of their tests. It has also been brought to my attention that the private institutions connected with the mining industry of British Columbia do at the present time furnish these tests. They carry on a certain amount of that work, and they also give the values in connection with their tests. But with the increased activity in mining, these private institutions will be unable to go that far on account of the many requests that are coming to them, and it has been represented to me that inquiry be made of the government as to whether the department here could not furnish the values. I am well aware that

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such a privilege could be abused to some extent by large corporations, if they saw fit to take advantage of it, but I believe that the request in this matter has been asked on behalf of the pioneer prospector, and such a provision would be of great assistance to him.


Robert James Manion: The question asked by my hon. friend from West Algoma (Mr. Simpson) brought up a subject on which I wish to make a few remarks^ and I think they will be as applicable here as on any other item. I refer to the iron ore bounty. My hon. friend coming from that section, like myself, is naturally interested-and so, I believe, is the whole country-in this question. While the minister said that they had not yet decided to recommend any co-operation with the provincial government, at the same time I should like to impress upon him, as the hon. member for West Algoma and others have done on previous occasions, the importance of giving very serious consideration to the question. It is not just a local question. One of the reasons why the National Railways, indeed all the railways in this country, have found it difficult to carry on has been a shortage of freight, and that is particularly due to the lack of population in that gap of more or less unsettled country between North Bay and the Manitoba boundary. We have an area there as large as the British Isles and the German Empire combined, and yet while they have one hundred and ten millions of people, or thereabouts, in those European countries we only have in this northern Ontario section about 150,000, so that this area forms an immense gap where neither passenger nor * freight traffic, nor population, is as large as it should be. Therefore the whole of Canada, -as well as northern Ontario, is interested in developing the iron industry which is one of the basic industries in commercial processes throughout the world. There is no country in the world that is really a great commercial country that has not its prosperous iron industry; and there is this further fact to be remembered in our case that we import from the United States something like $150,000,000 or $175,000,000 worth of iron and iron products each year. I should think that, in view of the past history of this country in helping various industries with bounties, enterprises which have been built up into very large industries, the government might well, consider co-operating with the province of Ontario which has proposed to grant a bounty in unison with another bounty from the Dominion government. I think the government might very well give
very serious consideration to that idea between now and the next session of parliament. I do not believe that at this late day in the session there would be any likelihood of bringing the proposition to a successful issue; but this is a question which has been a very live one, which is being agitated very strongly not only in northern Ontario, and down in the Maritime provinces, but in British Columbia as well. We have also heard of deposits being found in Manitoba; that province has ore deposits which also might be utilized in the same way. There is this fact to be remembered too: If we offered a bounty, in co-operation with the bounty proposed by the government of Ontario, and the project were not a success there would be no money spent. There is a further fact to be borne in mind. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) has pointed out on the floor of the House on different occasions-I heard him do it some years ago-the great success that was met in the case of the steel industry in Canada through the bounties that were given by the Liberal government between 1896 and 1906, or thereabouts. I believe that even my hon. friends to the left who are free traders-or a large number of them,-if they were convinced that a bounty for a time would start a basic industry such as this, would probably not feel that it was as harmful a type of protection as they consider some of the other forms are.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: A most vicious kind.


Robert James Manion: What did my hon. friend
from Marquette say?
Mr. CiRERAR:	I was just remarking to
one of the hon. gentleman's friends over there that probably the bounty system is the most vicious kind of protection.


Robert James Manion: I do not agree with my
hon. friend that there is anything vicious about protection, I do not think there is- my hon. friend and I differ as to that. But even if there were, I have read a statement on the question of -protection by many of the best authorities, professors of political economy and others, to the effect that the bounty system is the least vicious-using my hon. friend's term-because it is a straightforward method, you know exactly what you give and what returns you get, and in many cases there is no possibility of building up the desired industry -by any other means. However, that is by the way. I just wish to impress upon the minister once again the necessity of a serious consideration of the whole question; and I hope that between this
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and next year the government may give some thought to this question-as has been given in the past by various governments-the granting of iron ore bounties on the line of the steel bounty, the lead and 4 p.m. zinc bounty, the oil bounty, and various others. I believe it would be entirely in the interests of Canada if the government, could see its way clear to cooperate with the province of Ontario in this matter.


Robert Forke: The provinces of Ontario
and British Columbia have been mentioned by the hon. member for Fort William and Rainy River (Mr. Manion), and he has also spoken of Manitoba. I thought, therefore, I would quote to the House a statement made by Professor Wallace, of the university of Manitoba, that the day would come when Manitoba wtould be more famous for its minerals than for its agricultural produce. So that we are not at all blind to the fact that Manitoba has a great future in store for her as far as mineral production is concerned. I shall limit myself to mentioning this statement without at all going into the question of free trade versus protection at this time.


Mr. JELLIFF:: Is the department making
any investigation as to our oil resources, or the utilization of the tar sand in our northwestern country?


Charles A. Stewart: I might
answer the question in the affirmative although the subject is one which comes up more appropriately under another vote.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Is the government considering any scheme for the development of the iron and steel industry-that is the utilization of our great deposits of iron ore- in a manner similar to that adopted by the British government under the Aids to Industry Act? Has there been any proposal for, or consideration of, a plan of that kind, in contra-distinction to the bounty system, or supplementary thereto?


Charles A. Stewart: May I say in reply to my hon. friend first, that I am not familiar with the details, but I believe a proposal of that kind has been discussed between members of the government and representatives from British Columbia, but I do not think any action has been taken on the matter at the moment, although a considerable amount of discussion has occurred. But, dealing with the question raised by the hon. member for Fort William and: Rainy River, namely, the question of assisting in the development of the iron industry in Canada

by way of a bounty, let me say that I do not go the length to which my hon. friend from Marquette (Mr. Crerar) goes in characterizing this as a most vicious kind of protection. So far as the Mines branch of the federal government is concerned at the present moment, having in mind perhaps that the most important service that could be rendered would be the evolving of a process of dealing with these low grade ores, that we are bending all our energies, working in conjunction with the American Department of Mines or any other informative source that we can find, to ascertaining whether or not a process can be developed that will make it profitable to mine and transform into pig iron the low grade iron ore that we have in Canada in large quantities. There is no question but that if that could be done we would be in a very different position in Canada from the one we now occupy; and that many of the things suggested by my hon. friend (Mr. Manion) would come about. We are very much alive to the importance of the question, and feel that perhaps we can render a great service at tlje moment by investigating every one of these processes that comes under our notice. At the moment we are working on an electrical process that we hope will prove a partial solution at least. I hope that before long some one will evolve a commercially feasible process. I can quite appreciate the desire of the Ontario government to lend encouragement along the same line; but we feel that for the time being we can best serve the development of this industry by what we are doing to-day.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Has ihe minister in mind the granting of any other form of assistance this session?


Charles A. Stewart: My hon.
friend has reference to the iron industry?


Henry Herbert Stevens: Yes.


Charles A. Stewart: No.


Mr. MORRISON:: Will the minister tell
us what the expenditure on the coal briquetting plant has been in the past year, and what the department is doing during the coming year in connection with that plant? Are they still co-operating with the governments of Manitoba and Saskatchewan in their experiment?


Charles A. Stewart: We have
not done anything during the past year. Speaking from memory, about, a year ago we entered into an agreement with the owner of the mines, Mr. Sutherland, that the three governments would take over the plant and develop the process. My understanding through Mr. MAY 15, 1925
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Molloy, Commissioner of Labour and Industries for Saskatchewan, whose duty it is, I believe, to supervise to some extent this investigation, is that Mr. Sutherland is anxious to test out a process they have developed in Germany, and with that object in view has shipped over a very considerable amount of coal which is being tested by the German process in the hope that it may be superior to what our investigations have developed so far. However, we do know that we can make briquettes successfully, although perhaps the cost is a little more. I do not know whether Mr. Sutherland expects to reduce the cost or not, but he seems to be enamoured of the process developed by the Germans and wants to try it out thoroughly. He is on the spot himself watching the process, and we have a representative there also for the same purpose so that we may have full information. He wants to do that before he begins the making of briquettes at the plant now in existence.


Mr. WARNER:: The minister speaks of
low grade iron ore. Is it low grade in quality or just low grade in quantity? That is, is the return low grade?


Charles A. Stewart: It is low
grade in quantity. The hon. member means low grade in metal content?


Daniel Webster Warner: Yes.


Levi William Humphrey: What is meant by low grade in quantity?


Charles A. Stewart: It is about
35 per cent.


Daniel Webster Warner: Is the development of the salt mines in A'lberta carried on by the Dominion government?


Charles A. Stewart: No. Any
drilling that is being done there is being done by the provincial government. The hon. member refers to McMurray, I presume.


Charles A. Stewart: Would the minister give a little more in detail the activities of the Euel board during the past year whether they have abandoned all experiments with peat, and what the minister has in mind of any particular new field of 'investigation or development during the coming year?


Charles A. Stewart: While we
are getting the memorandum regarding the investigational work, I might deal with the peat problem. This problem has been carried to the point where we have proved that it is a commercial possibility and that we have a process that will work successfully. Since that time both governments have agreed that the
matter has now entered the field of commerce.
I think we are both of the same opinion, that it can best be developed by private enterprise. That is being attempted by a company, organized, I think, in Montreal. I understand they are ready to operate now at Alfred on the bog. The machinery was turned over to them on a guarantee that they would continue to operate and produce peat.


Mr. PARENT:: Lately in glancing over the report of the Department of Mines of the province of Quebec, I was reading reports concerning the titanium ore deposits in that province. It was stated in the report that there is any quantity of titanium ore in Quebec. Does the Department of Mines at Ottawa know something about this, and has it ever ventured to find out whether this ore is of value to the country?


Charles A. Stewart: We have a
report on the ore mentioned by my hon. friend.


Levi William Humphrey: I am not just dear
on this question of testing or treating ores. Would the minister explain the procedure in regard to testing a shipment of ore coming to headquarters at Ottawa? Have the department had any requests in regard to furnishing assays of ores that are sent in?


Charles A. Stewart: We are not
attempting to do this work in any commercial way. I think the hon. member mentioned the fact that the prospector was not in a position to get tests made for iwhich he would have . to pay. That is just the field that we are trying to fill, to test all the discoveries of the prospector. I do not say that we are confining our efforts entirely to that, but our chief desire is to lend that aid to the individual who has spent his time and money in trying to discover mineral. After the assay is made and the various minerals that usually are found in the sample are discovered, we try to work out a process that we can give him for his information. We advise him as to what the ore contains in pounds and as to the ibe^t method of treating and handling that particular sample. It is true that we do not furnish the actual dollars-and-cents value of the product, but that can easily be ascertained when he has at his disposal those two or three very important pieces of information.
In reply to the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens), we put no restrictions on the quantity which may be sent forward for investigational work here. I do not think the government of Canada should be called upon to provide a commercial plant. We are
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doing our full duty by carrying out investigational work rather than by attempting to enter the commercial field or to develop this work in a large way, employing a number of highly technical men and machinery for the purpose of testing ores in big quantities.


Levi William Humphrey: That was the point
I was interested in. I am not concerned in any way with the commercial end of the matter; I am interested in providing some way of assisting the prospector, the one who goes out and actually finds the mineral. I can go as far as to say that I have not had any representations made to me on behalf of the commercial phase of the question. When the prospector sends 'his ore to the testing plant at Ottawa, at the time this test is made, it might be very easy to assist him by providing an assay giving the value in dollars and cents of the metal content. If he sends his ore to the plant here and a report as to the result of the test is furnished to him, he then has to send the result of that test to an assayer. That takes a good deal of time and money, and prospectors are not in a position to do that. The fees in connection with assaying are fairly high, and if the man is constantly engaged in prospecting, he has to have a good many assays made in a season. Therefore, when the department has the prospector's ores here, it might go as far as to give him the value of the metal content in dollars and cents and he would then have the result of his season's investigation right before him. I do not think, for a moment, anyone wishes the department to look at this matter from the commercial angle. All the big commercial institutions engaged in mining carry on extensive assaying and testing plants of their own, and' it is hardly necessary for commercial institutions to call upon the department.


Lincoln Henry Jelliff: Has any investigation ever been made as to the metals in the Rocky mountains? These mountains have been piled up there a long time, much longer than I have been alive at any rate, and it is about time we were finding out what there is in them. We are under the cloud) of a great national debt which, if it is to be paid, must be paid through the development of our natural resources. I am quite in sympathy with what has been said by hon. members to my right. We have coal there in millions of tons and we have everything necessary for the reduction of ores. I think therefore that a complete investigation, even if it should cost a lot of money, should be made into these resources.


Charles A. Stewart: We are
doing geological work in the mountains every year; whenever reports are 'brought to us we try to investigate the possibilities of new discoveries.


Mr. BOYS:: With regard to the question of peat, I remember that a few years ago, in an effort to get rich quick, I lost in peat all the money I had. I am interested to know if any progress has been made. I recall the difficulties that we encountered, the chief of which was the drying process. Has anything been invented of late to overcome that difficulty? Another trouble was that after the fuel had been manufactured by the Dickson patent ' process it could not be stored except under cover; and that was a great objection. I had not followed the developments in the last five or six years but I understood the minister to say that progress had been made. I should like to know something about the cost of manufacture, what the finished product can be sold* for, and whether any is now being sold commercially.


Charles A. Stewart: The experiments were carried out at Alfred, between here and Montreal, and we did not discover that there was any short process for drying the peat. They simply spread the mud, as I call it, on the ground and left it to be dried by the sun.


William Alves Boys: And suppose it rained the next day?


Charles A. Stewart: The rain
does not affect it except that it takes longer to dry.


William Alves Boys: When it is wet it disintegrates and the whole process has to be gone over again. We found that we could never get enough dried.


Charles A. Stewart: So far as
I could ascertain down here, and I watched it closely, the whole thing depended upon the devolpment of machinery to handle the material cheaply. I have given an opportunity to everyone who has come along with a pressure process, or with some process of sun-drying, to try it out. There is an engineer here who felt that he was discriminated against because we had not given him the necessary machinery to put his process to the test, and we decided to meet his wishes in this regard. So far no process has been discovered whereby you can separate the moisture content from the peat, the composition being about 90 per cent moisture and 10 per cent solid matter. It seems impossible to bring sufficient pressure to bear to extract all the

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moisture to make it decent fuel. We had an area covered with the peat and we produced about 4,000 tons in a short time.


William Alves Boys: 
Charles A. Stewart: It was sundried. I had some of it sent to Ottawa and a number of people burned it. It gives a strong heat although of course it is a low grade fuel. I do not think it would be more than between fifty and sixty per cent of the value of anthracite. It can be manufactured cheaply if you do not put too many transportation charges on it; a hundred miles would be about the limit you could ship it economically. And after it has been thoroughly dried it will keep.


William Alves Boys: Is it used for steam or for
domestic purposes?
Mr. 'STEWART (Argenteuil):	It can be
used for steam but it is used .chiefly for domestic purposes, for fire-places and cooking stoves.


Mr. BIRD:: How much of the vote approximately is spent on the investigation of mineral resources and deposits-altogether, in actual investigation?


Charles A. Stewart: About $95,-
000.


Thomas William Bird: That is, on field work.


Charles A. Stewart: No, this is
for investigational work in the laboratories. The field work comes under the next vote.


Thomas William Bird: I think an undue proportion
of the money is spent on laboratory work. I asked the minister some time ago to give me the figures with respect to the work that was being carried on at The Pas; I thought that was the only way one could ascertain
how much work the Mines department was doing in actual investigation. The minister was not able to give me an answer to that question.


Charles A. Stewart: It is difficult to get it down quite so fine because we might have a party operating for part of a season or we might have two or three parties carrying on work at the same time, yet part of this expenditure would be involved as well. It is very difficult to separate in that way and get it down to the amount we spend in one province. If we had a party there for the whole season we could give the expense of the party. But that is not the way it is done. We have so many departments for geological investigatory work that we try to spread it over as much territory as we can.


Thomas William Bird: There is a doubt in my mind as to whether we are spending this money effectively in developing our already known deposits. I make this statement because I took a trip in The Pas mineral belt. I could see no indications at all that this department was doing anything actively to develop that district. I will admit that two or three years ago the Topographical Surveys branch issued a very excellent map, and of course that is to some extent of great assistance to the prospector, and that is the kind of thing that should be followed up. I spent two or three days in that district, and I do not think I ever heard so many complaints in so short a time from prospectors and others interested in mining. It seems to me the whole thing has been done in a haphazard way as far as that important mineralized section is concerned.


Charles A. Stewart: Was that
my hon. friend's first visit to a mining field?


Thomas William Bird: I will admit it was.


Charles A. Stewart: I thought
it likely.


Thomas William Bird: I think it is very significant
when hard-working men-and these prospectors are hard-working men-complain that they are being neglected.


Charles A. Stewart: What is the nature of the complaint?


Thomas William Bird: It would take me half_an hour to go over the great variety of the complaints.


Charles A. Stewart: Give us one or two.


Thomas William Bird: This district in The Pas is one hundred miles from the nearest town. In coming out from there I was accompanied
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by prospectors who were on their way to register their claims a hundred miles from the mining district. It seems to me that is an undue hardship imposed on men who are all the time undergoing great hardships in trying to investigate our mineral deposits. I think the real work of investigating our mineral deposits is being done by the prospectors, and I do not think much assistance is given by the department. I know that a great many of their hardships were not really due to the neglect of the department, but I say that if this department were supervising the districts where there .'are 'probably a thousand men or more on their own responsibility engaged in a work of national importance. and if the department were directing their minds towards that district in any systematic way, a lot of things such as railway facilities, for instance, and post office facilities, might be provided-[DOT]


Charles A. Stewart: My hon.
friend is not blaming the mining proposition for the lack of railways and post offices?


Thomas William Bird: These things are due to the lack of consideration. by this department. It seems to me futile for the department to be spending half a million dollars every year and nothing being done on the site of the mineral deposits. I should like to ask the minister what is being done in that district. I placed a question on the order paper and the minister could not tell me.


Charles A. Stewart: My hon.
friend asked me the cost.


Thomas William Bird: That would be the most direct way to get at the facts. If we are not spending any money there of course we are not doing anything in that district. I did ascertain that the department during the last three years has collected over $70,000 from these prospectors in registration fees. I think the minister should inform us how much the department is spending in that district. Here we have a large number of men a hundred miles away from anywhere, at great hazard, living a hard life, and yet without any direction of any kind. I can see from this that most of this money has been spent on work which has been done for people who could very well do it for themselves, namely our big mining companies. The minister has been talking about the facilities they have been offering to the prospector. Last year I brought a sample to the department. The deputy was very courteous, but I could see he was restricted in his ability
	,
to grant me a test upon this sample, and the way in which he put it was this: "How are we to know that this is a genuine sample?" I could only give him my word ol honour. But if that process has to be gone through every time a prospector sends a sample down here, I cannot see of what advantage that function of the department is at all.


Charles A. Stewart: It is very
important.


Thomas William Bird: But how can the department
carry it out with any advantage to the prospector?


Charles A. Stewart: It is really no advantage, unless it is an authentic sample and we know it to be authentic.


Thomas William Bird: Has the department any
means of telling whether the samples are genuine?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, we
have the affidavits, and we conclude from these affidavits that the men are honest about it.


Thomas William Bird: It seems to me that in an
area such as The Pas mineral belt this government. should have some official with some knowledge of the situation, helping the prospectors, and giving them advice, and trying to lessen the amount of hazard there is in their work. Some of them have been in there for five, six or ten years, and they do not seem to be any nearer to their object than they ever were. I think this is due to the lack of guidance from this government.


Charles A. Stewart: How would
you guide, a prospector?


Thomas William Bird: My hon. friend may make
light of it?


Charles A. Stewart: No, I am
not making light, or attempting to make light, of it. I think a great deal of the prospectors, and they have done a great deal for Canada; but you go beyond1 the point when you say anyone can guide a prospector when he is out looking for minerals.


Thomas William Bird: I was not suggesting that, but
there are many ways a prospector can be helped, especially as to the quality of his find.


Charles A. Stewart: We are
doing that. We are taking the samples from the prospector at the nearest station, paying the freight on these samples to Ottawa, and when they are examined we issue a statement with respect to them, and that statement is

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accepted by all the mining people of the country and it is authentic. But we have to know with whom we are dealing, and we have to know that a sample comes from a certain location, and that is all the prospector is required to prove.


Thomas William Bird: Is the department being used
to any great extent by the prospectors?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, we
analyse every sample sent to us.


Thomas William Bird: The department has no agent
on the spot to take the samples and to see that the samples are properly taken?


Charles A. Stewart: No, we are
operating all over Canada.


Thomas William Bird: You are confining yourself to
a laboratory, and not actually investigating in the field. That is my conclusion. The department is not spending money where it ought to.


Charles A. Stewart: Would it
satisfy my hon. friend if I said that we had fifty parties in the field?


Thomas William Bird: What kind?


Charles A. Stewart: Geological
parties.


Thomas William Bird: That is not of any advantage to a prospector.


Charles A. Stewart: Oh, yes, it
is of immense advantage to the prospector. Parties are up in The Pas district, and have been there for some time.


Thomas William Bird: The geological party finds the mineral field and the prospector develops it.


Charles A. Stewart: No, not
necessarily. The prospector goes out and makes his discovery, or thinks he does-he is not in every case trained in the business- and he asks for an investigation. The request does not come from the mining companies, because they have experts of their own.


Thomas William Bird: Will the minister tell me anything that the Geological Survey can do for the prospector?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, it can do a great deal for the prospector. It can tell him whether or not his find is worth anything.


Thomas William Bird: And is the department doing that?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Thomas William Bird: How much has that been costing in The Pas mineral belt?


Charles A. Stewart: We are
making investigations all over Canada, and a party may be in The Pas field for two weeks and then transferred to another, or it may be there the whole season. It would be difficult to give the expenditure for that particular area.


Thomas William Bird: I think that is a very reasonable question to ask. Here is a well defined mineralized area; it is not a new one, and the department should certainly know how much is being spent in administration in that area.


Charles A. Stewart: We have no administration charges in that area.


Thomas William Bird: I mean the amount the department is spending on the development of that mineral area. I doubt whether the department is doing very much at all in that respect; nearly all its money is being spent in the laboratory down here.


Charles A. Stewart: Would my
hon. friend agree if I said it was more important and more in the interests of The Pas district that we should spend1 a good deal of money in the laboratories rather than upon actual investigation or development work?


Thomas William Bird: If the minister will show me
how The Pas mineral area will be developed by work in the laboratories, I will concede it; but I do not see it myself.


Charles A. Stewart: A prospector must have someone to test his samples and advise him as to their value.


Thomas William Bird: It seems to me that the game of developing our mineral resources is carried on in a haphazard way. Professor Wallace, speaking not long ago, said that $4,000,000 of private money had been spent in that game in Manitoba during the last few years, the whole of it practically wasted. That could not happen if we had a Mines department that was really interested in the Manitoba resources.


Charles A. Stewart: Why could
it not happen? It has happened in every mining country. It is happening in Ontario to-day, in Quebec, and in every province where there is development of any moment. The men who discover the minerals are the prospectors with the packs on their backs who go out and take their chances. We stand ready to advise them with regard to their samples, all that they will send to us.


Thomas William Bird: Does the minister call that
investigating our natural resources-sitting
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here in a laboratory and waiting until other people go out and get the material?


Charles A. Stewart: Does the hon. member suggest that it is the business of the government to go out and discover minerals?


Thomas William Bird: If the federal Mines department were like the provincial departments, it would do more than it is doing. That is why Manitoba mining is so far behind that of other provinces.


Charles A. Stewart: What department of mines is going out to discover minerals?


Thomas William Bird: The Mines departments in
British Columbia and Ontario-


Charles A. Stewart: No, neither one.


Thomas William Bird: -but they are taking a keen interest in the development of their provincial resources. I am not blaming the minister; this is not a matter which has arisen since he took charge of the department. It is because the natural resources in our province are owned by the Dominion. There is only so much our province can do in this direction, but it has done all it could; it has helped to build a road in there. And now I want to know what the Dominion government has done to develop that country. Almost everything the Dominion government has done has been done half-heartedly. I was up the railway last fall and I was told by one of the mining companies there that they scarcely ever had a shipment of goods without some of it being stolen from the siding. Is that encouraging our mining men up in that district? Not only that, but in numerous other areas there is every sign that there is no push from Ottawa toward the development of our mining areas in northern Manitoba. It all arises from the fact that we do not own our natural resources.


Charles A. Stewart: My hon.
friend suggests that if the provincial governments were in charge, more would be done for the-mineral development of the province -and I am now eliminating the railways and the post office and the other services, because the Mines department has nothing to do with them.


Thomas William Bird: They have.


Charles A. Stewart: Well;, it
may be a question for the government generally, but I am speaking now of the Mines department only. We do practically all the

geological work that is being done in British Columbia; it is part of the pact of union that that work should be carried on, particularly in view of the fact that there are known to be huge deposits of ore in that province. We have done identically the same thing in Manitoba. It is true that the Department of Mines of British Columbia are ready to make assays and so on, to a limited degree, as is being done in Ontario. But I hope my hon. friend does not think there is any way of our organizing a search for minerals. That has always been done by the prospectors, in whom he is interested, and in whom I also, am interested. The prospector is the man I want to help because he is the real pioneer in mineral development; he has to put up with all the difficulties he meets with in going into the unbroken wilds. If he thinks he has found anything we can give him expert advice on it. It is true he has to go a long distance to register his claim, but we could not establish recording offices in every centre. The Department of the Interior does establish these offices wherever the business warrants it, and there is a general endeavour to facilitate the development of the mining industry as far as possible.


Thomas William Bird: Does the minister not think
his department is under greater obligation to develop the mineral districts of Manitoba than those of British Columbia?


Mr. McBRIDE:: Absolutely not.


Thomas William Bird: They own their mineral resources and we do not. Surely the minister admits that.


Edward Joseph Garland: I would like the minister to get back from the rocks into the bog for a little while. When was the experimentation in the development of peat fuel started; how much has been expended to date, and what has been the total revenue from the sale of the product?


Charles A. Stewart: The experiments were organized in 1918, the costs being met to the extent of fifty per cent by the Dominion government and fifty per cent by the Ontario government. In 1920, 6,000 tons were manufactured; in 1921, 4.000: in 1922, 4,700. The peat was sold in approximately twenty-five cities and towns in eastern Ontario and Quebec, at a price, f.o.b. cars at Alfred, Ontario, of $5 a ton.


Edward Joseph Garland: Does the
minister seriously think that it is advisable to continue experiments of this kind from the point of view of solving the fuel problem of the central provinces?

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Charles A. Stewart: We are not
doing anything with peat at the moment except endeavouring to discover whether there is any better process, because we consider that so far as the air drying process is concerned we have solved that problem. The peat bogs of Canada are not nearly so old as those of Ireland, and you cannot treat them in the same way. There is a tremendous amount of water in our peat, and we think we have solved the drying problem by the air drying process, so that peat can now be marketed within a reasonable distance of the bog itself in a commercial way, and become a reasonable adjunct to the other fuels, but we are still willing to investigate, although we are not spending any large amount of money, any process of pressure that might be discovered that would seem to shorten up the drying process.


Edward Joseph Garland: I do not
wish to be regarded as in any sense desiring to restrict reasonable experiment, but frankly I think the experimentation in this case has been continued long enough and the time has come now to stop. If the government is satisfied that a process has now been discovered for marketing peat commercially, let that continue to be developed by private interests and let the government cease this experimental work. If we could turn sums of money of this kind and similar sums to the reduction of transportation costs, for example, on the movement of the real fuel of the country, which is coal, to the central areas, I think it would be much more advisable. Does the minister intend to continue asking for large votes annually for a continuation of this peat experiment?


Charles A. Stewart: Oh no, we
are not asking for any large sum. I thought I made it clear to my hon. friend that so far as this experiment is concerned!, we have concluded that it is finished; but small sums are being expended from time to time investigating pressure processes that would appear to shorten the drying process.


Edward Joseph Garland: What was
the total vote last year for peat development?


Charles A. Stewart: There was
no vote last year.


Edward Joseph Garland: What
expenditure was made?
Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil); Only a very small sum. Peat is mentioned in the general list of experiments, but only because someone may come along with what might appear to be a better process for pressing out the moisture.


Edward Joseph Garland: Then actually the amount to be spent on this work annually will not be more than a few hundred dollars?


Charles A. Stewart: That is true.
Mr. HUMPHREY; I wish to come back to the question of mineral ores, in which there is a little more money than in peat. With reference to the remarks made by the hon. member for Nelson (Mr. Bird) I may say that so far as I am personally concerned I have lived a lifetime with the prospector and there is no one who has a greater respect or a higher regard for the prospector than I have. The prospector is not a man who will be guided when it comes to prospecting in the hills. The kind of assistance a prospector wants is a grub stake, and it is not through some organization that the prospector functions. But he does want assistance from the different governments, I quite admit that; and I am afraid that the assistance that is being given to the prospector is falling off to some extent. While no headquarters organization will ever be able to guide the prospector in any shape or form, he does need assistance in determining the content and the values of his discoveries. With regard to the remarks made by the hon. member for Nelson in reference to the work of the Mines department, I must disagree with him. From my own personal experience and the experience of others, I know that the Mines department has been doing a wonderful work in developing the mining industry in British Columbia. I cannot speak for Manitoba, but I can say that the wonderful activity in mining that is taking place in British Columbia at the present time is due to the research and scientific methods that have been discovered and approved by the Department of Mines. I would like the federal government to go further and give every possible assistance to the prospector by telling him what is in his ore and the values. That is the one point I would like to urge upon the minister.
As far as the geological work and other work that has been done by the Mines department in the past is concerned, I can only commend it. As a result of that work, mining engineers are now able to go into different localities in the several provinces without any waste of time or money and develop the mineral resources there. In that way the Mines department, while I will not say it has done everything possible, has assisted the mining industry to a very great extent, and
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I only hope that they will continue to work along these lines, because the actual results that have been brought to my notice speak very highly of the work of the department. There is, however, need of a good deal of co-operation between the provincial governments. Of course, we fully understand that the mineral resources in the province of Manitoba are in a somewhat different position from those in British Columbia, because in Manitoba they are under the control of the Dominion government, whereas in British Columbia, outside of the Dominion belt, they are under the control of the province, and it is through road building and in other ways that help is given to the prospector. In the past few years I know that the number of prospectors throughout the Dominion has been falling off. I trust this is not due to lack of assistance from our federal and provincial governments.
Mr. LeSUEUR:	During the sessions of
1923 and 1924 the status of the oil fields and the oil industry in Lambton and Kent counties was argued at some length in this House, and after much urging the government consented to an investigation. My information is that Dr. G. S. Hume, the geological expert, and Mr. Russell, an expert more I presume in financial matters, went up there and made an investigation at considerable length, with the assistance they could receive in that section. The situation of the oil fields and of the oil industry in those two counties, Lambton and Kent, is so serious, and was so serious, that those interested sent for the third time in the third successive session a deputation to Ottawa to take up with the government the question of continuing the assistance which has been given to them by way of bounty. To my mind it was most important that the reports of these two gentlemen should be before the House and before the government in considering the request of that deputation, and for that purpose I put a motion on the order paper asking for a copy of the instructions given to Dr. Hume and Mr. Russell in connection with their visit to the county of Lambton, and of all letters or reports written or made by them or either of them thereon, and all correspondence relating thereto. The return, to that order I have here, No. 187, and it reads in part as follows:
A copy of the instructions issued to Dr. Hume covered by this order is attached hereto.
Passing on, the meat of the return is this:
No report on the Kent and Lambton counties fields was requested from Dr. Hume in the instructions issued to him, and none was made, nor will any be made by 
him thereunder. There is no information on file in the Department of Mines concerning instructions to, or a report by Mr. Russell.
I have brought this matter up because I thought these reports were most important in the event of either the government or this House deciding on the question of continuing the bounty in the Kent and Lambton oil fields. To the producers in those fields this is really a matter of life and death, as was explained in the arguments on this subject formerly presented in this House. My information was that Dr. Hume did make a full report to the department, and that Mr. Russell also made an exhaustive investigation and reported to the government. When I received the return saying there was no report and no report expected, I took it up with a gentleman who had been to Ottawa in three successive years with these deputations to the government, and 1 wish to read what he writes in reply:-
Your letter of April 25, last, advising of the result of your effort to get before the House Dr. Hume's report on the condition of our oil industry here was received in due course.
While it may be true that no report was requested from Dr. Hume when he received his instructions to visit and investigate this field it is hard to understand a government official, at the country's expense, going to the trouble of making such an investigation and not being required to report back the result of such investigation.
Very soon after his arrival here Dr. Hume saw me and explained to me the purpose of his visit. I raised the question of the effect of the removal of bounty on oil and he then told me that he was not here under any instructions from the government to secure information in connection with the bounty controversy but that the object of his visit was to secure some information for his own particular department. He then stated that he thought it quite proper and necessary to report to his department his opinion of the result of the removal of the bounty and he asked that we give him such information as we had on the bounty subject.
Every facility was given Dr. Hume to make a thorough investigation and following his investigation a meeting of our producers was held attended by Dr. Hume and at this meeting the bounty matter was fully gone into and Dr. Hume made rather copious notes as to what was said. Following this meeting of our producers Dr. Hume prepared a report for his department at Ottawa and as he wras not returning to Ottawa from here it was his intention to forward this report by mail. Before posting it Dr. Hume called upon me at my office, read the report to me, made some changes suggested by me and stated that it would be forward to Dr. Camsell that day, Friday of the week. I was in Ottawa on the Monday following the Friday Dr. Hume was in my office, saw Dr. Camsell in his office on Monday morning, he admitted to me that he had just received Dr. Hume's report, that he had not had an opportunity to read and consider it but that he purposed having some copies made and would go into the matter later on. As a result of some of my efforts the Minister of Mines, Hon. Mr. Stewart had Dr. Camsell call at his, Mr. Stewart's office, with the report and I saw two typewritten copies of the report in Dr. Camsell's possession in Mr. Stewart's office.

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I have gone into this matter with considerable detail because I believe that when all these particulars are brought to the government's knowledge they will realize that a blunder has been made some place when the return was brought down declaring that Dr. Hume had never made any report. I believe we are entitled to have this oil bounty matter discussed upon its merits and are entitled to have this report as well as the material and information collected by Mr. Russell submitted to the House.
Yours truly,
I. Greenizen.
I believe that an injustice 'has been done to these fields lor the numerous reasons which have been thoroughly threshed out already. This investigation, in my opinion, has thoroughly corroborated every statement made in the House in regard to the situation in these two oil fields. It was therefore with the utmost surprise that I read the statement in the return that no such reports had been made. I wrote to Petrolea about the matter, and the reply is what I have read.


Charles A. Stewart: Dr. Hume's instructions were to visit that field on his way west and to make an investigation for the information of the deputy minister-for his information alone and for the benefit of no one else-as to the situation with respect to oil alone and not with respect to bounties. The granting of a bounty, or otherwise, is a matter of policy. Mr. Fielding, rightly or wrongly reduced the bounties and since that time a gentleman-I have forgotten his name, but he has been here on several occasions- has been in my office repeatedly. He has pointed out that the production has fallen to such a low point that ruin would absolutely ensue unless the bounties were continued. Let me say frankly that speaking personally I never concealed the belief that in the event of oil being discovered in large quantities in Canada the amount of bounty paid would ruin the country, but so long as the bounty was confined to the Ontario fields it would not be a serious matter. I take full responsibility for advising these producers that I thought the industry was surely now in the position to carry on without assistance from the federal government. I 5 p.m. merely mention that in passing.
Coming back to Dr. Hume, his report was of a confidential character; I cannot speak for Mr. Russell, I do not know why Mr. Russell was sent there, and I have no knowledge that he did make a report. If Mr. Russell was sent there officially to prepare a report, I have no complaint to make, but the point is this:	Where a question of
policy is concerned I do not think it is the business of a government official to pass his opinion upon it. He is an expert in his own
line, but cannot be accepted as an authority on matters of policy-as to what ought to be done in the way of reducing or enlarging bounties, or otherwise.
Mr. LeSUEUR: The first point made by the minister as to the ruining of the country by leaving this bounty on in the event of a large production is easily answered by the suggestion made by the deputation that the bounty should only be applicable to the first five barrels per well, or to some limited amount per well, which would answer fully the purpose and avoid entirely the possibility that the minister mentioned1. But now, the point is this:	The reply given in the return says
that no report on the Kent and Lambton fields was requested from Dr. Hume in the instructions issued to him, "and none was made nor will any be made by him thereunder." Now, the minister admits there was a report. Whe.her that report was confidential or not, it was a report; yet a return was brought down to the House which contained a statement to the contrary, and which, according to the minister's own statement is not accurate. The minister says the report was confidential. But why should a report on the oil fields be so regarded?


Arthur Meighen: Hear, hear. It cannot
be confidential, it is absurd.
Mr. LeSUEUR: The formation of a policy on a matter of this kind depends on the facts as they exist. Those facts were reported, and it was essential that the House should be made acquainted with them, and should know that previous statements made in this House were accurate. Then the House could adopt what policy it pleased, and continue or eliminate the bounty as it saw fit. I think the House was entitled to the facts. The investigations in question were made by the government at the country's expense, and I think we are entitled to have his report. We are entitled to know what the conditions are in those oil fields and then we can take such action as the circumstances call for. In any event it was improper to have said in an official return that there was no report because the minister has admitted that there was a report, but that it is confidential.


Charles A. Stewart: There comes to the department any number of reports of a confidential character that are not requested to come in that way, that are not intended for the use of parliament. There is a vast difference between these reports. We deal with so many and so varied subjects that my hon. friend may be excused for putting
Supply-Mines

this in the wrong category. We have to get confidential information, and confidential information that we get for the purpose of advising ourselves may take on a vastly different character if made public. I understand that Dr. Hume was sent there on his way westward. He did not come back to make any report on this matter, but he wrote to his deputy minister a short letter of a confidential character which now, it develops, he showed to the gentleman mentioned in the letter whose name I have forgotten. I am perfectly willing to accept the statement. If that is the case, it is absolutely news to me. Of course, the report could be no longer confidential. It was public property; he knew it, and in all probability he saw that information in my office. I do not deny that, but I have always treated that report as one for our own information in the department. In view of what my hon. friend has brought out, I am perfectly willing to lay the report on the table of the House and to treat it no longer as confidential. But I would want it understood that I am at liberty to get confidential reports in the department for my information.


Arthur Meighen: The hon. member for
West Lambton (Mr. LeSueur) has certainly, more by accident than anything else, exposed this afternoon what is a too-common practice on the part of this government;. Whenever anything comes out of a public nature which the government would prefer not to be known, it immediately becomes in the eyes of the government confidential; only that can be published which pleases the eyes of the government. In the first place, if one has to assume that the government has a right to regard as confidential the report of an official on a public question, obtained at public expense, a question that has been debated in parliament. This return is absolutely false, and it is brought down on the minister's authority. This return says that the official made no report; that he was not asked to make a report and that he was not going to. Does the minister suggest that is the truth? It is a deception of parliament. If it had not been that an outsider saw that report, parliament would never have known differently. Certainly the department stands in a most unenviable position in relation to this matter. But this report cannot be confidential. Certainly a government has a right to confidential reports on subjects with respect to which there would be danger in divulging information, danger, for instance, in letting other countries know, communications between ministers of other countries and those of Canada. But to say 
that the government can call a report of one of its own officials on a public question confidential, is ridiculous. What can there be secret? What should in the public interest be secret with relation to the facts in the oil fields in the county of Lambton? The thing is absurd. This man is paid a salary by this country, and1 we are entitled to the full results of his work. He brings in a report. I do not know what was in it, but the presumption is very clear, namely, that it reflects on government policy. The government immediately put their stamp "confidential" on it and, not content with that, they bring a return down to the House stating that the man made no report at all, and further than that, that he is not going to make any; whereas the facts are absolutely the contrary. This is not the first time that something of this kind has occurred. Almost every return brought down by this government bears on the face of it evidence that it is only partly revealing the whole facts. This return reveals nothing. It reveals a letter written to Dr. Hume, but it shows nothing in the world in relation to the results of a trip in respect of which he was given some thousands of dollars of the money of the Canadian people.


Charles A. Stewart: No, no.


Arthur Meighen: Yes, he was given $2,400 when he started out.


Charles A. Stewart: He also went to the west.
Mr. MEIGHEN; Yes, he went further than that, but the return reveals nothing in relation to the results of his work. Are the people's representatives not entitled to better information than that? I cannot see how the minister can stand in parliament and suggest that the report of an officer of the Mines department in relation to the oil fields of that territory can be regarded as confidential, even if in that report he went beyond his direct instructions-and I do not know that he did; his instructions are shown in the return. That does not matter; this is in relation to a public question and the government have no authority to stamp the word "confidential" on it as an excuse for not revealing it. But if they did mark it confidential, they should have stated in the return that the report was confidential, so that parliament might know and discuss the matter. But in order that parliament would not be aroused to that discussion, the government asserts that there is no report at all.


Mr. McTAGGART:: I should like to draw
the minister's attention to Saskatchewan for

Supply-Mines
just a moment. I presume he is familiar with the fact that Saskatchewan, as well as the other provinces mentioned here this afternon has important mineral deposits, and that some of those deposits are expected, when developed, to be of considerable value. It is my understanding that the Department of Mines during the last two years have carried on an investigation into the mineral resources of Saskatchewan, and in this connection I should like to ask a question:	What has been the
general result of the investigation into the sodium sulphate deposits in Saskatchewan? Have any important finds been made in that province?


Charles A. Stewart: Answering
my right lion, friend (Mr. Meighen), I would not want the committee to go away with the impression that, so far as we were concerned, we were attempting to suppress anything that was of a public character. This Dr. Hume, as I remember, had certain instructions to go into that territory and make a private and confidential report verbally to us on the matter. He did not do so. If there are any returns coming down from my department that would indicate in any way that we are attempting to keep back public information, I assure the committee that such is not the intention. But to settle this matter once and for all, whatever report Dr. Hume made-and I have no recollection of it at the moment except that, perhaps, he reported in his private letter something of a confidential character dealing with the bounties-I am prepared to bring it down, place it on the table of the House and treat it as no longer confidential.
A general complaint has been registered with regard to returns. I can speak only for myself. If any hon. member is complaining of returns that are brought down that are not proper, I shall be glad to know what they are. I bring down a great many returns, and sometimes I do not have an opportunity of perusing them in order to see whether they fully answer-the questions.


Arthur Meighen: I only interrupt to say
that the assertion made by the minister that this official was entitled to make a private report to the department is not the truth. If it had been, the position of the department would be worse than ever.


Charles A. Stewart: No.


Arthur Meighen: Of course it would.
What right has the minister or any officer of his department to instruct an officer on salary by this country to go out and investigate a 208
question of public concern and make a private report that the public who are paying him have no right to see? He has no right to do that at all. Before the minister lean be justified in asserting that any document is confidential, he must show that it would be injurious to the country to reveal it at the time. I recall that in the days of the late government, only in connection with correspondence with the United States government and the British government were we compelled to take that stand. We were roundly -and foolishly-abused. In a case of that kind I would never in the world complain. But what harm could there be in submitting the report of an officer on the condition of the oil industry in Lamlbton? There could not possibly be any reason to justify the suppression of it. But he was not asked to suppress it or to make a private report. The instructions are given in a letter to the following effect:
On your way to .and from the field you will spend a few days in the oil fields of southwest Ontario in Kent and Lambton counties with a view to becoming familiar with present conditions in these fields and arranging for closer co-operation with the drilling companies to obtain information regarding the well logs, et<S.
He was to make an investigation there so that the department might become more familiar with the situation; and whatever report he made, whether as a letter or in any other form, is public property from the beginning. The government therefore had no right to endeavour to stamp it otherwise, and much less had they the right, having done so, to assert that there was no report at all.


Neil Haman McTaggart: Will the minister reply to the question I put to -him?


Charles A. Stewart: The hon.
member's question, I take it, relates to the work in Saskatchewan. I do not know that we have any particular report on what has been done in Saskatchewan, but as most of the sodium comes from Alberta and Saskatchewan we have been investigating matters there. We are really just beginning the work. In 1924 there was sold in Canada a production of some 118 tons valued at SI.179, which was produced from the stock of 1923. The total production of 1923 was 733 tons 'valued at $10,189.


Neil Haman McTaggart: Did the finds in
Saskatchewan prove to be of value when tested? A year ago last fall, I spent several hours in the company of a party operating under the Department of Mines, and they were then investigating a deposit in my own

Supply-M ines

district. The engineer in charge told me that he thought the deposit was a very valuable one. They were sending samples to Ottawa to have them tested and I gathered from what I was told then that the investigation into the sodium sulphate deposit in Saskatchewan was about concluded. I thought therefore that the minister might have a general statement to make with regard to the deposits in the different provinces.


Charles A. Stewart: I see from
the report of the investigation carried on 'by the Mines branch that there is at least a supply of 100,000,000 tons to draw upon, so that there is a considerable quantity of it, sufficient to do us for hundreds of years, I should think.
Mr. FORIvE:	Is it used in the making of
paper?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes. These
are the lake deposits of the prairie provinces.


Robert Forke: What quantity comes in
from Europe? Is the supply from these deposits used in the pulp mills in Ottawa and in the east, or does it come from the other side of the Atlantic? I ask this question because a delegation waited upon me representing the desirability of increasing the duty on this material; they had difficulty in competing with shipments from Europe.


Charles A. Stewart: The deposits of the prairie provinces are only of recent discovery.


Robert Forke: They were using it as far
east as Dryden.


Charles A. Stewart: I have not
the report of the department before me.


Robert Forke: I cannot give any details
in regard to the matter but, as I say, there was a delegation wanting the duties increased.


Mr. McQUARRIE:: Has the Minister considered the advisability of assisting prospectors by way of bonus or otherwise? I understand that in some parts of the empire this is being done and is proving quite satisfactory; money is advanced to the prospectors to pay for their food and supplies to a limited extent. They must show of course that they understand something about the work and it must be evident that they are doing something to earn their bonus. Has the minister ever thought of adopting such a policy? In a country such as Canada where we have no doubt many undiscovered fields of valuable minerals in all parts of the various provinces, and in sections where the Dominion has control, if some policy of this kind were adopted it might lead to valuable results.
[Mr. McTaggart.l


Charles A. Stewart: We have
not considered the question of grub-staking prospectors. It would be a little difficult I think inasmuch as there are all sorts of people prospecting, and sometimes the most inexperienced man stumbles on the richest find. It is true that a great many of these men who are expert in their work are grub-staked by the larger companies who control the finds, but the government has not considered entering that field.


Daniel Webster Warner: The minister spoke about the geological work that was being done; I do not know just what is being carried out in that direction. Is there any systematic control of the matter? Does the department take the initiative, or is an investigation made upon the report of someone that he has found something?


Charles A. Stewart: Where there is a reasonable prospect of discoveries parties are ordered into the locality, but usually we act on advice received from some source. It cannot be denied that the prospector is the pioneer; he is the man who makes the discovery.


Mr. CAMPBELL:: Wha't is the approximate amount of the vote charged to the operation of the Dominion Fuel Board, including the costs of the various publications by the board?


Charles A. Stewart: My hon.
friend will find all these figures in Hansard.


Milton Neil Campbell: I find here a rather
voluminous book published by the department with reference to coke. This publication must have been expensive. I find also a report issued by the municipal council of the city of Ottawa dated February 15, 1923, which, so far as I can see, contains all the information that is in this book. This cost the city of Ottawa comparatively nothing whereas the book to which I refer cost the tax-payers a lot of money. It would not appear that the new Fuel board is doing: much to justify its existence.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
For publications, English and French purchase pf books, laboratory supplies, in-truments, miscellaneous assistance and contingencies	 $40,000'
For transportation charges from outlying provinces on ore shipments which may be sent to the ore dressing plant of the Mines branch at Ottawa for testing purposes, under regulations approved by the Minister of Mines	 5 q0Q>
Arthur Meighen: What is the $-40,000?

Supply-Mines


The CHAIRMAN:: For publications or
books, laboratory supplies, and so forth.


Lincoln Henry Jelliff: Is this second item to pay
transportation charges on samples sent in by prospectors?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, chiefly from British Columbia on account of the great distance, to avoid the construction of an ore dressing plant there.


Arthur Meighen: What is being done away with when we make the reduction?


Charles A. Stewart: We are not getting the samples. We do not require the money.


Thomas William Bird: Will this apply to prospectors
in Manitoba?


Charles A. Stewart: All outlying provinces.


Arthur Meighen: How does the minister account for fewer samples coming in?


Charles A. Stewart: I do not know why they have not come in larger numbers. My hon. friend will remember that we had1 an item in the estimates for a number of years-it was in at alt events! when I first came here-for the construction of an ore dressing plant in British Columbia. I think the amount was $100,000 and it was decided not to go on with the construction of that plant, but to put in an item of $10,000 for the purpose of bringing the ore eastward for examination. They send very small samples, and it does not amount to a great deal. We have not put any restriction on the amount of the samples.


Lincoln Henry Jelliff: I do not see why people
sending in sample ores for testing should not pay the transportation charges. The department pays the testing charges.


Charles A. Stewart: It was
simply to help the prospector.


Arthur Meighen: It was an endeavour also to be fair to all parts of the country. If you keep your ore dressing plant here it is a good thing for Ontario, but not very good for British Columbia.


Levi William Humphrey: Has the department
received any notice of opposition to the construction of the ore dressing plant in British Columbia?


Charles A. Stewart: I believe
we have a resolution somewhere.


Levi William Humphrey: In opposition to this
plant?
208Jj


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Levi William Humphrey: If the prospectors of
British Columbia are not taking advantage of this offer it cannot be a very useful proposition. I would suggest that there be some investigation or looking into the question of why the prospectors are not taking advantage of this offer of free transportation for samples of ore. I refer to the construction of the ore dressing or ore testing plant.


Charles A. Stewart: They had a meeting of the Miners' Association in British Columbia, and I have a letter from W. H. Burgess dated October 30, 1923, which reads as follows:
At a general meeting of this association no members concurred with the proposal. It was explained that this proposed plant is considered among prospectors to be for the customs purchasing of complex ores, the following communication being received and read:
"We the British Columbia Prospectors' Association unanimously protest against any moneys being spent for the purpose of erecting a testing plant in the province of British Columbia for the present considering it is a total waste of money."
I do not agree with that, but that is the resolution.


Robert Forke: What sort of regulations
are attached to that?


Charles A. Stewart: I do not
think there are any.


Robert Forke: I thought the minister
mentioned something about them.


Charles A. Stewart: This document goes on to speak of the present high taxation and necessity for economy. They say this plant should not be considered unless^ it can be shown to be a real help to the mining industry. I think there is a mistake there, because no doubt if the plant were established it would be a real help.


William Garland McQuarrie: When was provision made for this plant?


Charles A. Stewart: There was
$100,000 in the estimates for a couple of years.


William Garland McQuarrie: When was that?


Charles A. Stewart: Four years
ago it first appeared, I think.


William Garland McQuarrie: Under the previous
government?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


William Garland McQuarrie: I remember there was
a good deal of agitation about it from British Columbia at that time. I think I had something to do with it. It seemed to be a very desirable thing to have an ore testing plant
Supply-Mines

in British Columbia, instead of requiring the people to send their ore to Ottawa. The time occupied in sending the ore by freight was quite an item, and the delay was very considerable. As I remember it there was a very strong desire on the part of the people of British Columbia and those interested in mining that this plant should be erected. Now this government apparently 'has abandoned that.	.


Charles A. Stewart: I would not say absolutely abandoned it, but we have delayed the construction of it and substituted this provision in the meantime.


Mr. CALDWELL:: What was spent under
the heading of transportation last year?


Charles A. Stewart: Not very
much.


Thomas George McBride: Was not that vote passed just before the last election?


Charles A. Stewart: I do not
remember.


Levi William Humphrey: I did not catch the
answer of the minister.


Arthur Meighen: If the hon. member
would bring about a by-election in British Columbia he could hurry it up, and it would appear in the estimates again.


Levi William Humphrey: I did not get the
minister's reply to the question asked by the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. MeQuarrie) in regard to the bonus for the
prospector.


Charles A. Stewart: I said the
government had not considered the matter. IMany of the richest finds have been made by men who have no knowledge, or at least very "little knowledge, of prospecting. It would be a very difficult thing to select men. I do mot know how you could place any restrictions on it, because there are a great many men who take all sorts of chances, who love the life and make real discoveries, and these men contribute very largely to the wealth of the country. Many of them work all their lives and discover nothing. I think my hon. friend will bear me out in that statement, but some of the best among them are selected by corporations who are interested in the mining business, and they are kept in the field for that purpose. But the government has not given any consideration to grub staking and prospecting.


Levi William Humphrey: I would urge on the
minister something along that line. Considering that the old prospector is passing away,

I think something should be done to create an interest for the prospector and making it worth his while to go out and prospect for minerals. Conditions are such to-day, on account of the increased expense, that I believe it is worthy of every consideration this government or any government can give it. Further assistance could be given to these men, either by way of bonus or some other means, to encourage the prospector-and especially the old time prospector-to go into the field. These old timers are amongst the best prospectors we have."


Mr. KNOX:: Did I understand the minister to say that samples sent in for assay purposes were assayed free of charge?


Charles A. Stewart: Not all of them. A great many of these samples are sent in by our own men in the field, and these are the ones we feel most confident about in the matter of getting results. That is why the prospectors do not send in many samples under the provisions of this vote.


Andrew Knox: I asked the question because a short time ago I heard a man complain that he had been charged three or four dollars for the assaying of a sample he had sent in to the department.


Charles A. Stewart: It did not come under the provisions of this vote.


Mr. SUTHERLAND:: The provincial governments do a great deal along these lines, I understand, and samples they deal with would not reach this office at all. Ontario, for instance, has an assay office?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


William Garland McQuarrie: What are the requirements to come under this vote?


Charles A. Stewart: The chemical assaying is the only one that is charged for; the milling is done free. Charges are made in all cases except where they come under this provision. When the item was first put in the estimates three years ago it was for the purpose of facilitating the sending of samples from British Columbia. We felt we could postpone for a time the construction of the plant and offer to pay transportation charges on the samples.


William Garland McQuarrie: That will be continued?


Charles A. Stewart: Oh yes.


Arthur Meighen: The minister says this is for the purpose mainly of assaying samples sent in by officers of the government?

Supply-Mines


Charles A. Stewart: No; I mentioned that our parties in the field in every province were forwarding samples for testing purposes which had jbeen turned in to them by prospectors.


Arthur Meighen: These were forwarded
before there was any such provision as this, so that the extra amount here must be for privately transmitted samples. I had always understood that those were assayed free, and I was surprised at what the member for Prince A'bert said.


Charles A. Stewart: We ask payment only for the chemical assay.


William Garland McQuarrie: Plow much was spent last year under this vote?


Charles A. Stewart: Only about $S.


Arthur Meighen: It would seem that the
mining business is pretty nearly down and out if only $8 is the outlay in relation to samples for assaying from all of Canada.


Charles A. Stewart: I think the
explanation is that the samples come largely from our own officers in the field.


Arthur Meighen: It does not take very
much, then, to balance up British Columbia.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dominion of Canada Assay Office-for maintenance of assay office, Vancouver, B.C., $26,000.
Arthur Meighen: How long has this office
been there?
M,r. STEWART (Argenteuil):	Twentyfive years. It was established at the time of the gold discovery in the Yukon and has been continued ever since.


Arthur Meighen: What is the need of it?


Charles A. Stewart: It is really
a function of the Finance department; it has no connection with the Department of Mines. I would be very glad if the Finance department would take it over.


Arthur Meighen: All they do is buy gold
and transmit it to Ottawa?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: They might just as well
transmit it direct, without any stopping off at an assay office at Vancouver.


Mr. SPENCER:: How much of this vote
was spent last year?


Charles A. Stewart: $23,723.


Arthur Meighen: How much gold was taken in at that office last year?


Charles A. Stewart: $2,029,236.
I am told that they refine the gold there before forwarding it.


Arthur Meighen: Is the gold all fefined
there and sent on here? i


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.
Mr! MEIGHEN:	Would it make anydifference as to freight if it were sent here unrefined?


Charles A. Stewart: It does not
come here; it is sold in Seattle. I confess I thought it all had to come here.


Arthur Meighen: Who sells it?


Charles A. Stewart: We sell it
apparently.


Arthur Meighen: I suppose it helps to
pay our balance of trade with the United States.


Thomas George McBride: This assay office is very
important for Vancouver. Why should people have to go to Seattle and spend their money there -when they come down with gold from the Yukon and Cariboo? This office in Vancouver not only refines gold, but if any person has any gold in the way of brooches or anything of that sort the assay office will tell them the exact value of it, and purchase it if it is for sale, they can get it refined there also for a small fee. It is one of the most important institutions we have in Vancouver from a business standpoint.


Arthur Meighen: I thoroughly agree with
the hon. member. I was just suggesting the office was! not necessarily on the strength of the minister's statement that the gold all came down here anyway. His statement was wrong.


Charles A. Stewart: I was right
to this extent; it came down here until eight months ago. I did not know it had been changed since. I [DOT] am informed the Finance department did not require it, and therefore it is being sent to Seattle.


Arthur Meighen: I presume it is all a
matter of the drift of the stream of gold. It would sometimes come here and and sometimes not, but undoubtedly it is good business to refine it here and not allow them to go down t-o Seattle with it.


George Black: Is it not a fact that up until eight months ago under the War-
Supply-Geological Survey

time Measures Act the export of gold was prohibited? That regulation being relaxed, gold now goes where the best market is.


Charles A. Stewart: I am told
there has ibeen no relaxation. You have to have a license to export. Of course, this is under the control of the Finance department and not upder our department and I think this assay office should also be under the control of the Finance department.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Geological survey-for explorations, surveys and investigations, wages of explorers, topographers and others, $200,000.
Mr. STIRLING:: Does the minister propose to spend any of this money in British Columbia?


Charles A. Stewart: Oh yes.


Grote Stirling: In what parts does the
minister expect to survey?


Charles A. Stewart: I will give
my hon. friend the lump sums for the provinces:	British Columbia, $38,000; Alberta,
$15,000; Saskatchewan, $7,000; Manitoba, $7,000; Ontario, $23,000; Quebec, $15,000; New Brunswick, $5,000; Nova Scotia, $6,000.


Grote Stirling: Does the minister know whether it is proposed to carry on geological surveys in the southern portions of British [DOT]Columbia?


Charles A. Stewart: There are
nine parties in British Columbia, and1 two in the Yukon. In British Columbia the parties are working at Galena Hill, Atlin, Dease lake, Hazelton, Portland canal, Eutsuk lake, Tatlayoko lake, Britannia, Slocan, Kimberley, Lardeau, Windermere.


Andrew Knox: Could we have the location 'of the parties in Saskatchewan?


Charles A. Stewart: We have two parties in Saskatchewan under D. B. Dowling and P. S. Warren. They are both in the southern part of the province.


Andrew Knox: Is nothing being done in the north part of the province?


Charles A. Stewart: LX.


Andrew Knox: The mineral area is largely
in the northern part of the province, except the sodium sulphate and some coal. I have been pressing on several occasions for a party to be sent into the country around Lac La Ronge, about 150 miles north of Prince Albert. There has been a good deal of pressure brought to bear by the people of northern Saskatchewn

that this should be done, and I think the minister would be well advised to consider that proposal, because that mineral area is very important indeed.


Charles A. Stewart: I am informed that a fairly thorough investigation of that locality has been made, and we have a report on ft.


Arthur Meighen: Anything in it?


Charles A. Stewart: I have not seen it.


Andrew Knox: The claim was that it had not yet been surveyed. If a topographical survey party was sent in there, it could be followed by an aeroplane survey to get the location of the smaller lakes, so that the prospectors would know where they were going. It would be something to guide them in the survey of their claims.


Charles A. Stewart: We did hope to make an aerial survey of that territory this year. I am not just sure, but I will get the information for my hon. friend when the estimates of the Interior department are up, because the aerial service comes under that department.


William Garland McQuarrie: Can the minister give us particulars as to how this $200,000 is divided among the different services?


Charles A. Stewart: I have
given the lump sums to be expended in the various provinces.


William Garland McQuarrie: The vote reads: "For
explorations, surveys and investigations, wages of explorers, topographers, and others." Can the minister segregate the expenditures on these different items?


Charles A. Stewart: I gave the
amounts for explorations before. For topographical surveys the figures are as follows: British Columbia, $12,000; Northwest Territories, $7,500; Ontario, $8,500; Quebec, $7,500; New Brunswick, $5,000; Nova Scotia, $7,500.


William Garland McQuarrie: What would explorations consist of?


Charles A. Stewart: The work
of the geological parties. The salaries of the parties in the field and all incidental expenses would have to be paid.


William Garland McQuarrie: Do you send them out to a particular district? I can understand them being sent out to make a survey, but what do they do in the way of exploration?

Supply-Geological Survey
It does not seem to be a matter of exploration at all, but a matter of surveying.


Charles A. Stewart: The geological party are doing exploration work for geological purposes only. Then we have the topographical surveys, making preparations for a map of the territory. All the salaries and incidental expenses of these parties in the field come out of this vote.


William Garland McQuarrie: How much was spent
last year?


Charles A. Stewart: For exploration, surveys, and investigations the sum of 8187,486.


Thomas William Bird: How much of this vote is
allocated for Manitoba?


Charles A. Stewart: Three
parties will go into that province-to Oxford river, Fox lake, and Godl's lake.


Arthur Meighen: Would the minister have, at eight o'clock, the report of Dr. Hume?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.
At six o'clock the Speaker resumed the chair and the House took recess.
After Recess
The House resumed at eight o'clock. PRIVATE BILLS



CONSIDERED IN COMMITTEE-THIRD READING

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 38, to incorporate the Knights of Pythias of Canada (title changed to Knights of North America).-Mr. Maybee.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 120, respecting The Essex Terminal Railway Company.-Mr. Healy.
Bill	No.	121,	for	the relief of Dorothy
Strathy.-Mr. Preston.
Bill	No.	122,	for	the	relief	of	Minnie
Williams Goldberg.-Mr. Jacobs.
Bill	No.	124,	for	the	relief	of	Charles
Arthur Sara.-Mr. Duff.
Bill No. 125, for the relief of Frederick George Randall Lacey.-Mr. Ryckman.
Bill	No.	127,	for	the	relief	of	Norma
Evelyn Stevens Hammond.-Mr. Church.
[Stage Direction]
The House in committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
George Newcombe Gordon: The item under consideration relates to explorations, surveys and investigations, wages of explorers, topographers and others, $200,000.


William Garland McQuarrie: What work was done
last year under this item or by means of the expenditure of $187,000 which the minister gave?


Charles A. Stewart: I have not the details; the field work would be much the same as it was this year.


William Garland McQuarrie: That is to say, the
same parties are working this year.


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, but not in exactly the same locality in each province. The hon. member is asking, I take it, for the details of this year's work, that is to say, the fields in which the parties are working. The expenses for exploration work last year were as follows, in round figures:
Province	Amount
British Columbia	 $45,693
Alberta	 9,000
Saskatchewan	 2,000
Manitoba	 4,000
Ontario	 18,000
Quebec	 10,000
New Brunswick	 2,000
Nova Scotia	 8,000
For topographical surveys the expenditures were:
Province	Amount
British Columbia	 $14,000
Northwest Territories	 4,000
Ontario	 2,000
Quebec	 5,000
New Brunswick	 4,000
Nova Scotia	 8,000
The wages of explorers and topographers amounted to $21,000.


Mr. ANDERSON:: Have any surveys been made in the Mackenzie river and Peace river districts?
Mr.	STEWART	(Argenteuil):	Not	this
year.


Robert King Anderson: Where there any last
year?
Mr.	STEWART	(Argenteuil):	We	did
nothing in the territories last year	either. I
gave the three prairie provinces in a group.


Robert King Anderson: There were some investigations a year or two ago in connection with certain oil finds. Has there been no report in this regard?
Mr.	STEWART	(Argenteuil):	The	last
work done in the Norman field was two years ago; there was none last year and probably there will be none this year.
MY ANDERSON:	Was there no report
on the surveys made last year with regard to the oil possibilities in that district?
Supply-Geological Survey


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, there
are reports in existence with reference to the work done in the Norman field.


Mr. STEWART (Leeds):: Is there any
general plan according to which these survey parties are sent out? Are they trying to complete a general scheme or do they go where they are requested from one year to another?


Charles A. Stewart: There is a general plan to be followed but frequently we have to break in on the work by sending parties to make hurried investigations where necessary. We are trying however to cover the field in a continuous way in those localities in which the geological parties work.


Mr. KENNEDY (Edmonton):: What is the difference between the work done by the geological and topographical surveys as indicated on page 46?


Charles A. Stewart: The topographical party simply makes a tour of the country for mapping purposes, and this must be done prior to the entry of the geological party. The work of the topographical survey is of great assistance to the geological branch and as a matter of fact little progress could be made until that work was done. The work is either done by the men of the geological party who precede them, or it is done by the topographical parties of the Interior department; but there is no overlapping; they know what areas they will work in before they start.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Could not one organization do the whole thing?


Charles A. Stewart: No; it is
different work altogether.


William Garland McQuarrie: From whom does the request come for this work-from individuals or from the province?


Charles A. Stewart: Not necessarily from the province. We accept requests from individuals if there appear to be reasonable grounds for an investigation.


Robert King Anderson: In connection with the expenditure of $18,000 in northern Ontario, would the reports of investigations there be available?


Charles A. Stewart: My hon.
friend asks whether reports are available with regard to northern Ontario?


Robert King Anderson: Yes, the reports that were filed?
rMr. Anderson.]


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Mr. HANSON:: What work has been done in the past year in New Brunswick? I remember two years ago the minister referred to it. I have not heard of any work being done.


Charles A. Stewart: The work
there was in the Minto coal fields, and base maps for the Chipman-Minto coal basin and base maps for later coal and oil shale investigations were prepared.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Was any work carried on in the Albert district?


Charles A. Stewart: No, not recently.


George Black: I think the minister said there would be two geological parties :n the Yukon. I suppose one of them will be in continuation of the very valuable work being done in the Mayo silver fields. Will the minister state where the other party will be.


Charles A. Stewart: Yes there
will be one in the Mayo field, and another in Atlin.


George Black: That is in British Columbia.


Robert James Manion: What work is being done in northern Ontario? My hon. friend from Halton (Mr. Anderson) asked a question about it. I understand there was some work done in northern Ontario with regard to the investigation of mineral deposits.


Charles A. Stewart: Mr. Tan-ton and Mr. Gill were in the Nipigon field mapping out the iron ranges. They were working together. There was the geological mapping of Bruce Mines, and Mr. Thompson was working on a complete geological survey commenced last year in latitude 47.30; that is in the Woman river area. Then Mr. Quirke was in the Parry Sound district, and Mr. Freeland was at French river. Mr. Ellsworth was also in the Parry Sound district


Robert King Anderson: Were there any investigations made in northern Ontario?


Charles A. Stewart: No, I understand the Larder lake district is being investigated by the Ontario department.


Robert King Anderson: Did the department of the Dominion government make any investigation?


Charles A. Stewart: No, we have not done anything in Larder lake.

Supply-Geological Survey


Robert James Manion: I was wondering if the
reports of Mr. Tanton and others regarding the iron formations in the northern section had been filed.


Charles A. Stewart: tunity to personally examine these and the		following
results are from these reports: Date	Loss	Profit
September, 1921		1045.37	
December, 1921		483.06	
March, 1922			1158.84
June, 1922			1690.07
September, 1922		114 24	
December, 1922		1418.01	
March, 1923		791.60	
June, 1923			1405.53
September, 1923		340.74	
December, 1923		314.31	
March, 1924			573.81
These include the bounty but	nothing has	been deducted for depreciation nor depletion.
Effect of Decreased Production per Well on Cost per Bbl. Production
1918	1923
Production	bbl. 600,000	158,551Average price	
SI.44	$2.531.	The cost of production per barrel in 1923 was much higher than in previous years due to the decline in production per well even assuming the cost of pumping to be the same. That is, if a well in 1923 produces much less than in former years and the cost of operating the well is the same it is obvious the cost per barrel must be greatly increased.2.	The cost in 1923 per barrel production was increased over former years because it is much easier to operate a well with a large flow than it is to operate one with a small flow.3.	The cost in 1923 per barrel production was greatly increased over former years on account of the increased price of labour and equipment.
A sheet showing comparison of equipment costs for a number of years is attached.
The result of these three factors combined is that the cost of production per barrel under present conditions is several times greater than formerly.
Effect Anticipated by Operators by Removed of Bounty
On account of the fact that most of the producers now operate at a loss without the bounty the effect of the removal of the bounty will be a cessation of operations by the operators losing money. Even supposing only a few closed down at once the results are likely to be disastrous because,
1.	A great deal of water is pumped with the oil and this water must be removed before the oil can be obtained. The closing down by a few operators will throw this burden on the remaining operators, which of course, will at once increase production costs and undoubtedly cause others to close down, even though under present conditions they may be operating at a small profit.
2.	The effect of several operators closing down will be to increase the water troubles in the field and flooding will result. The effect of flooding is to permanently destroy the field so that even if the price of oil does increase at a later date operators who were forced to close down will not be able to resume operations. This, I think, is one, if not the most serious, effect on the future of this area as an oil producer.
3.	The effect of decreased production in this area will be to cause the Imperial Oil Company to shut down their receiving stations, now maintained in this area, and to abandon their pipe line which carries the oil to Sarnia. The oil operators left in the field will thus be forced to transport their oil to Sarnia or some other refinery thus increasing their production costs. This, no doubt, would be most serious.
Conclusions.

The effect of the conditions outlined above leaves little doubt that with the withdrawal of the bounty the oil fields of this area will be speedily abandoned and, I take it, this also applies to the other fields in this part of Ontario. This will have a disastrous effect, as far as I can see, on the towns in this area, who have assumed obligations for debentures of a large amount. Debentures were issued in the towns of Petrolia and Oil Springs to cover cost of installing hydro power which is almost universally used in the oil area by the operators for the production of oil and which account for by far the greater part of the power used. Also in Petrolia there are at present at least two machine shops-Mackenzie's and Bain's-each employing a number of men and these are entirely dependent on the oil industry. If a partial or complete cessation of production in this area should result from the withdrawal of the bounty, these industries would be seriously affected and the reduction in population resulting from these and the oil operations themselves would make it extremely difficult for these towns to meet their debenture obligations.
Are the Oil Fields Worth Saving?
There seems no doubt that even under satisfactory conditions to operators for production of oil in this area, the Ontario fields will show a gradual decline in future years but from operators here I have arrived at the conclusion that the decline is likely to be slow. For example Mr. Kerr, a large operator claims his property pumped as much oil in 1923 as it did in 1914 and Mr. J. P. Watt who controls 24 acres and operates 32 wells in Petrolia claims his production is larger than in 1916. There seems reason, therefore, to expect with continuous operation Oil Springs, Petrolia and Enniskillen Township areas will continue to produce much the same quantity of oil as formerly for a number of years and this conclusion is substantiated by the production in barrels shown for the last few years.
1921	1922	1923Petrolia and Enniskillen..	..	68.483	64,935	64.159Oil Springs	
40,966	43,214	39,090Regarding the	capital	investment in these	areas I
can get no reliable information but statements are made that it runs into several millions dollars.
The oil fields of S. W. Ontario now produce considerably more than 90 per cent of the oil produced in Canada that production in 1923 being 158,551 bbls for Ontario representing $400,000. With import of nearly 3U million dollars for Canada for oil and oil products in 1923 it would seem worth while to return our present production-
I presume that is a mistake, that what is meant is "retain" our present production, -although my conclusions from the investigations I have been able to make, lead me to believe a withdrawal of the bounty will cause almost wholly the abandonment of the Petrolia, Enniskillen Township and Oil Springs fields.
Geo. S. Hume.
Petrolia, May 22nd, 1924.
I would like to add that this report is a complete justification for the arguments made in this House in two separate debates for, the retention of the oil bounty. The disastrous effects of the withdrawal of those bounties, not only on the field, but on the surrounding towns and that section generally, have been fully pointed out, and our request for the return of this report was in order that the result of the investigations might be made known

Supply-Geological Survey
in this House to show whether our arguments had been sound or not. This report confirms them absolutely, and I think this House and the government should take cognizance of these facts now that they are brought to their attention, and should reconsider their position on this bounty question.


Charles A. Stewart: We discussed the question of the return before we rose at six o'clock, and I have only this to say in reply to the hon. gentleman. All those facts were in our possession. They were urged by the delegation, by Mr. Green-izen, who presented the very same statements to the government through Mr. Fielding. While I do not know that he filed an exact duplication of that report, the representations he made concur so nearly with the statements made in the report that there is very, very, little difference.


Arthur Meighen: Does the minister still
persist that that is a confidential report?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, I do.
It is not marked confidential, but my recollection of the whole thing was that that report came in long after Mr. Greenizen had been here and made his statement.


Arthur Meighen: What has that to do
with the confidentiality of the report?


Charles A. Stewart: Not at all.
That report was considered confidential at the time by the government-*


Arthur Meighen: Because it was against
the government.


Charles A. Stewart: No, it was
not against the government. The original report came in in writing, as I recollect it.
Mr. LeSUEUR:	This is the original.


Arthur Meighen: It is signed, and is typewritten.


Charles A. Stewart: The original report came in in writing, and it was typewritten here in the department and passed on to the deputy minister. I am not complaining of that. I simply want to make the statement complete, and to point out that that report is very, very largely, if not entirely, a duplication of the presentation made here by a group representing the oil men who came to call upon the Minister of Finance.


Arthur Meighen: A confirmation.


Charles A. Stewart: My hon.
friend can say that if he likes. I am the last man on earth 'to take advantage of an official or to suggest that an official has not
got his information in the proper manner, but I do want to say that long before that report was prepared, representations were made to this government, to Mr. Fielding and to myself, exactly identical with the report, because the report is wholly a financial one; it is wholly a report of the companies' costs presented by the companies themselves. I want my hon. friend to bear that in mind.


Arthur Meighen: What else could it be
on .that subject?
Mr. LeSUEUR: Might I interrupt the hon. minister? I take exception to his statement that this report is wholly financial. Here is a statement as to the effect of the water if the wells close down. That is not financial; it is geological.


Charles A. Stewart: Quite true,
in the event of the closing down of the wells, but it does not follow that the wells were going to close down. May I ask my hon. friend if they have closed down?
Mr LeSUEUR:	I think some have.


Mr STEWART (Argenteuil):: But in a
general way, has there been any cessation of work in the petroleum fields?
Mr. LeSUEUR:	Not in Ontario. The
bounty was cut in half on the 1st of July last, and the Imperial Oil Company themselves advanced 25 cents per barrel to these producers to keep them going until they could see if this matter could be adjusted. That was a purely philanthropic proposition because of these producers being old clients who had supplied 'the company with oil for yearn. That is withdrawn today, and the rest of the 'bounty will come off on July 1st next unless the (government reconsiders its position.


Charles A. Stewart: My information was that there was no cessation of the activities in the field. I was quite unaware that 25 cents per barrel was being gratuitously advanced by the Imperial Oil Company. But the point I want to make is this: Quite apart from the report, which I maintain was of a confidential character and sent to another official in the department, to be handed on to Dr. Camse'll, the deputy minister, Mr. Hume was in that field less than three days. I have every admiration for Mr. Hume's ability, but he certainly could not have compiled all that information in that time, nor do I think he could have come to the conclusion that even if there had been a small cessation of activities, water would have flooded the field. I quite, appreciate that if too many wells cease operating and
Supply-Geological Survey

water enters the field, it will destroy it, and nobody knows that better than Mr. Hume; I am not taking issue on that point. But I say that with the single exception perhaps of that reference to the destruction of the field, which Mr. Greenizen perhaps did not feature, he featured every other item in that report, and said that if the bounty was cut to any appreciable extent production would have to cease, that they could not continue under those conditions; and that is exactly what, is contained in that report.
Mr. LeSUEUR:	The minister's position,
then, is that Mr. Greenizen represented these facts more or less along the lines which I have read to-night.


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.
Mr. LeSUEUR: And that Mr. Hume, the geologist of the department, went up there and presents more or less the same statement, with some geological additions.


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.
Mr. LeSUEUR:	Now might I go further
and say that the government sent up Mr. James A. Russell, and I understand bis report also confirms these statements.


Charles A. Stewart: I cannot speak as to that; I do not know anything about that.
Mr. LeSUEUR: That is also another gentleman who was sent up to investigate this field, and no report has been produced.


Charles A. Stewart: I cannot speak as to Mr. Russell. I can only speak as to the report of the geologist.
Mr. LeSUEUR:	The point I am making
is this: If the hon. minister impugns this report as not being thorough, as not. being exact, as not setting forth the absolute facts, I believe he has got the facts corroborated by at least two other reliable men.


Charles A. Stewart: I am not
impugning the honesty of purpose of anyone, much less one of the officials, because I always take it that no official has the chance to defend himself here, and I take the side of the official upon all occasions. But I do say that the facts set out there particularly the facts with respect to the financial conditions, were all in our hands. I will not say because I have no recollection of the statement being made that the fields would be destroyed if they were flooded; but the statements with reference to the injury to the business of the town, and other matters, were made here by the deputation.


Arthur Meighen: The merits of the report constitute one question; the merits of the government constitute quite another. What is the history of the matter? 'The hon. member for West Lambton (Mr. LeSueur) moved for a return of the instructions given an official of this government in relation to the oil fields of Kent and Lambton and he asked that the return also present the report of that official. In answer to the order by parliament the government brings to this House a statement -a solemn statement on the authority of a minister of the crown-that the official who went up from his department, Dr. Hume, made no report at all-was never asked to make a report, and will not make any report. I ask this House to consider where the government stands in the face of this report read a few minutes ago by the hon. member for West Lambton? Was that a report or was it not a report? No human being would assert that it could be described otherwise than as an official report of an official of the department.
Now I come to the minister's plea. He said "That report is confidential." That is what he said this afternoon. If we are prepared to grant, that what the minister says is correct the conduct of his government and himself is inexcusable even then. Were it a confidential report the statement that should properly have been made was that the report was confidential; that would have been the truth as interpreted by the government. They reported that there was no report at all; they embodied that statement in a return to parliament in answer to an order of this House. Now let us inquire what is to be thought of a government which declares a report of that character confidential? What is the minister's plea to-night in extenuation of his statement that this report is confidential? "Why, we knew those facts before; we knew what was in it."


Charles A. Stewart: I think my right hon. friend should be fair in this matter. The minister did not make that statement in that way.


Arthur Meighen: No? What is the difference in effect?


Charles A. Stewart: The contents of the report and the question of disclosing it are two different things altogether.


Arthur Meighen: I asked the minister why he had stated the report was confidential, what there was in it of a confidential! character, and the answer I got from the minister was that he knew it before.

Supply-Geological Survey


Charles A. Stewart: No, no.


Arthur Meighen: If the minister has any other answer let us 'have it.
Mr. 'STEWART (Argenteuil): I'f I made that answer I do not want it to go on the record.


Arthur Meighen: Will the minister tell us now what there was in the report that justified him in saying it was confidential?


Charles A. Stewart: Well, any
report that we ask for of that 'character-


Arthur Meighen: What character?


Charles A. Stewart: -is confidential.


Richard Burpee Hanson: A public document?


Arthur Meighen: What character?


Charles A. Stewart: When we
wish to get confidential information from any official of the government the report would be considered as such.


Arthur Meighen: Is the information confidential that was disclosed in the report?


Charles A. Stewart: It is not so marked.


Arthur Meighen: It is not marked at all. It
could not be honestly so construed. Nobody would suggest it could be so construed. What is there confidential about it? It has not any mark whatever of confidentiality, not a word. If the word was on it it would have no right to be there. The whole subject is a public subject. It is a subject affecting the public interest. It is a subject that has been debated in this House over and over again, and the reports have been made by a salaried officer of the department paid by the people of Canada. Is such a report to be concealed from a Canadian public? What harm could be done by the publicity of that report? What harm could be done to the1 taxpayer of Canada, the people of Canada? None could be suggested. No man however imaginative could suggest the Slightest injury. Consequently, no person can be justified for a moment in suggesting that this report is 'confidential. It would not matter if it were marked confidential in every line-even if at the top or bottom or anywhere in it, it were marked 'Confidential, private, personal or in any other way. It is not a letter. Even if it were a letter it would make no difference; it is a regular report in formal shape. And is this country going to understand that when anything comes to the government from an official, which is diaimetricaillly opposed in recommendation to the government's policy, though paid for by the people's taxes, the government can put it in its pocket and say "This is confidential, we will not tell parliament anything about it?" I wonder what trust parliament is going to place in the returns of this government after this? I do not think it will plaice very much. I do not know what there could be that we would be entitled to if this is something we are not entitled to; I could not conceive it. That is the position the government rest in and that is the position from which they cannot escape.
As to the merits of the claim for bounty, that is another issue altogether. Suffice to say that it does not argue much against a reporlrt-the fact that that report is in absolute confirmation of all that hon. members of this party argued for in two sessions in this House, of all that hon. gentlemen opposite of the government disputed two
9 p.m. sessions in this House. The report of their own official confirms the representations made by those who asked for the renewal of this bounty and confirms to the letter all the contentions of the hon. member for West Lambton. This government is now disclosed-by its own official as by surrounding facts which support the official-as having adopted a course which, for a comparatively paltry sum, is going to result in the destruction of a very considerable industry in an important section of Ontario-is resulting in it now, inch by inch, and day by day; that is going to result in the demoralization of other industries dependent thereon, and in the probable collapse -at all events partial collapse-of otherwise flourishing towns.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
For publication of English and French editions of reports, maps, illustrations, et cetera, $55,000.
William Garland McQuarrie: Will the minister give the details of this vote?


Charles A. Stewart: This is the usual amount that is voted from year to year for these publications. These publications of the work of the geological parties in the various fields in which they work are now in the press in English and French.


William Garland McQuarrie: What is the cost of the French and of the English respectively?


Charles A. Stewart: The English publications cost 818,000, the French, $9,000, and the publication of the maps $12,000. Then there is the wages of the engravers $9,000 and cost of illustrations $7,000, making a total of $55,000.
Supply-Geological Survey


Henry Herbert Stevens: I notice that there is an item for $40,000 in the Mines branch, $55,000 here for publications, and a little lower down in the same vote for " chemicals, books of reference, miscellaneous " and so forth, another $50,000?


Charles A. Stewart: That is the museum vote.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I see. But there are the other two items I mentioned of $40,000 and $55,000. I am not complaining of the nature of the work performed because I am competent to speak about it only in a very general way, and I know that some of the publications are exceedingly valuable and highly prized by those interested in geological work. But $95,000 does seem like a very large sum for publications for the Mines branch and the Geological survey. Is the result of the work of the Geological survey pretty generally appreciated and used? If it is used, there cannot be much complaint. But, on the other hand, no matter how excellent the work may be, if the knowledge is not widely disseminated, it is not performing its chief function in the expenditure of this $55,000 for publications.


Charles A. Stewart: All these
copies of printed publications are used up annually, so that we are not printing copies of reports and having them filed away. A great deal of interest is taken in mining in Canada and many of these publications go out of the country for the information of outside investors.
Mr. STEVEN'S:	What method of distribution is used?


Charles A. Stewart: We have a list. Of course we receive many requests also, and these publications as soon as they are ready are furnished to interested parties.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Is there any charge for
them?


Charles A. Stewart: To people
inside of Canada the publications are free, but if they go outside of the country, we make
in some instances a small charge for them.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I do not want to be too critical, but I think, in the interest of economy, something could be done. Some of these publications are printed upon very fine paper. The illustrations are excellent and costly, and I assume, and, I think, rightly, that they are quite useless and needless, shall I say, to a large number of individuals who would apply for this literature. Many, for 
instance, in my province, would appreciate and use geological reports on their district to great advantage, and they would prize them very highly. But, perhaps, 60 to 75 per cent of the publications they are not interested in at all. An effort might be made to lessen the number for free distribution containing these highly expensive engravings and the costly paper upon which they are printed.


Charles A. Stewart: We have
paid some attention both to the quality of paper going into these publications and to the distribution. They are being distributed, not to people who will be entirely uninterested, but very largely to people who are much interested in them. We might adopt a new policy altogether and send them out only to those who apply for them.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I think most people would be prepared to pay a small fee, for instance, twenty-five cents, fifty cents, for some of these reports. They are excellent and easily worth the money. A fee might be charged that would at least partly cover the cost. This is a fairly large sum for this free work.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
For maintenance of offices and museum, instruments, chemicals, books of reference, miscellaneous assistance and contingencies, $50,000.
William Garland McQuarrie: What are the details
of this item?


Charles A. Stewart: The details are as follows:
Clerical assistance, wages of mechanics,
labourers, etc	 $18,500
Stationery, mapping material, sundry printing	 10,000
Chemical laboratory supplies and apparatus, lumber, hardware, freight and express charges, cartages, customs,	duty, etc.. ..	7,500
Photographic supplies	 3.500
Library books and subscriptions	 3,500
Instruments and repairs	 3.500
Postages and telegrams	 1,500
Advertising	 1,000
Miscellaneous	 1,000


Andrew Knox: Is this the Victoria Museum?
Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil) l Yes. The Victoria Memorial Museum.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Do the clerks and other employees in the civil service not come under the civil list?


Charles A. Stewart: Not all of
them. We have not that happy condition where they are all in the civil list, although we are getting them in as fast as we can.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Last night we found that the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. MAY 15, 1925
Supply-Mines
Low) had a group of clerks under a general vote not disclosing the vote as being for salaries of clerks. We have now a very extensive civil list at the back of the estimates, showing the number and so on; but constantly we are finding in the departmental estimate large general sums covering salaries, wages and so forth of a number of employees. We should disclose all of these employees in the civil list.


Charles A. Stewart: I think
every man who is working in the service of the government should be in the civil list and I have said so repeatedly. This, however, is mostly made up of mechanics who are working in or about the museum. There are some carpenters and labourers. That is quite all right, but there are a few clerks. I cannot give my hon. friend the details, but I agree with him that everyone on the clerical staff should be in the civil list.


Henry Herbert Stevens: We shall take it for
gran'ed that the minister will get them on the civil list as soon as he can.


Charles A. Stewart: Just as speedily as I can.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
For museum equipment, $10,000.
Henry Herbert Stevens: What is this for?


Charles A. Stewart: Nearly all
the specimens at the museum are now being put under glass. Instead of buying the cases from a furniture company, we are making them on the ground with cabinet makers. We find lhat we can save a great deal of money by so doing and, in addition, preserve the specimens very much better than when they are open to the dust in the building. We are trying to get them under glass as speedily as possible. That is what this $10,000 is for.


Mr. WOODSWORTH:: The National Gallery to a certain extent serves outside communities by pictures being sent out to them. Has the possibility ever been considered of having some sort of an arrangement of that kind with regard to the exhibits, so that exhibits along certain lines might be sent to outlying districts? It is all very well for Ottawa people to enjoy and profit by these exhibits, and for students to come here and study them. But would it not be a great advantage if, occasionally, other parts of the country benefited by these exhibits?


Charles A. Stewart: The Art
Gallery is not under the control of the department. It is under a board.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I quite understand
that.


Charles A. Stewart: I shall be
glad to pass on to that board the suggestion of my hon. friend.


James Shaver Woodsworth: The minister misunderstood me. I said that in the case of the Art Gallery a certain amount of extension work was being done. It might be possible to do something of that kind in the case of the museum. Occasionally an exhibit of a certain character might be sent out to some of the western cities to stimulate interest in our Canadian national resources.


Charles A. Stewart: Just what
has my hon. friend in mind? We have exhibits of minerals that are easily moved, but as he well knows there are in the museum many exhibits of a very fragile nature which would not stand moving about very well.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Compassionate allowance to Mrs. Anna Kohl, widow of the late Harold Kohl, a chemist in the employ of the Mines department, $3,000.
William Garland McQuarrie: The minister might
explain this.


Charles A. Stewart: Perhaps I
had better read the memorandum I have on this vote:
The late Harold Kohl was employed as a chemist in the chemical laboratory of the fuel testing division of this department. He was a young man who rendered intelligent and conscientious service. Since his demise it appears that he continued uncomplainingly at work for months when in fairness to himself and his family he should have had sick leave; for constitutionally he seems to have been not properly fitted for the endurance of the confinement and the exposure to fumes which a chemist may in the performance of his duties have to endure. For the reason stated it seems that a compassionate allowance might justifiably be made to the widow of the late Mr. Kohl, who has besides herself four children under the age of eight years to provide for.
I thought it was a worthy case.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Grant to Imperial Institute, $12,849.
James Shaver Woodsworth: May we have some information in regard to this vote?


Charles A. Stewart: This represents a considerable reduction in comparison with former votes. Formerly it was in two items; now we have it in one, and for the sake of brevity I might read a memorandum to show how this came about:
At the Imperial Economic conference 1923, a resolution was passed providing for the reorganization of the Imperial Institute and the amalgamation with it of the Imperial Mineral Resources Bureau. It was agreed also that the exhibition galleries of the Imperial In-
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Lincoln Henry Jelliff: How are the proceedings of the institute carried on? Do they hold conventions and discuss these subjects?


Charles A. Stewart: Their work
is purely investigatory but it is under imperial .mspices. It is of very great interest to mining industries throughout the empire.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE Agriculture-Entomology, $20,000.
Mr. LUCAS:: How does the minister explain
the decrease?


Hon. W. R. MOTHERWELL (Minister of Agriculture):: The vote is subdivided as
follows:
Printing	 $10,000
Apparatus and scientific supplies	 2,000
Annual grant to Imperial Bureau of
Entomology	 5,000
various minor items	 3,000
Last year we put in a pretty good supply of equipment and instruments and we find now that we can reduce the vote without endangering the service. This accounts for the decrease.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is this for equipment?


William Richard Motherwell: Two thousand
dollars.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Merely for equipment at
Ottawa?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes. The offices
are in the Birks 'building on Sparks street, Ottawa.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Administration of the Destructive Insect and Pest Act and necessary buildings, $375,000.
Richard Burpee Hanson: This is a very large item
and a very large increase. What work has been carried on in the past, and what is the cause of the increase?


William Richard Motherwell: The total appropriation is $375,000. The items are:
Entomological branch	 $220,000
Experimental farm (Division of Botany) 155,000
Then we have a further subdivision of the vote. The two causes which led to this increase are, first, the increased activities out in the west in connection with the problem of rust, the endeavour to find a rust-proof wheat, or otherwise dealing with the rust problem in some manner that will reduce as far as possible these ravages. This has necessitated the construction of a laboratory at Winnipeg in conjunction with the college in that province. This was partly taken care of last year by a vote for that purpose, and the balance will be taken care of by this vote. The proposition is to put up a fumigating and inspection plant in the city of Montreal to inspect or fumigate certain plant products and such other commodities as require fumigating. This is the result of a new regulation that has been adopted in the United States. A law was recently put on their statutes to provide for the inspection of all plants going into the United States, and as we had a working arrangement with the United States, in order to continue our trade with that country the necessity was imposed upon us of bringing down a similar provision that all shrubs and bulbs coming into Canada would have to be inspected. At the same time this will prevent contagion and will provide the necessary supervision to continue the trade backward and forward between Canada and the United States. We have taken this initial step to provide for this inspection and fumigating plant in the city of Montreal. In addition to this, we intend to use it for fumigating embargoed cargoes that still persist in coming into the country, packed in straw. The House has heard from various members, particularly the hon. member from Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens), whose case I think we have been able to look after all right, because we had a fumigating plant at Vancouver sufficient to take care of the goods after they had been reduced down to about 20 per cent of what they were last January, by our pro-

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hibitory law. They still come in but not in such quantities that the plant at Vancouver cannot now take care of them. We need a plant at Montreal, and we are going to combine it for these three purposes, shrubs, bulbs and other commodities, and occasionally other cargoes that come in packed in straw. The increase is due to these two causes.


Robert Forke: This is a very large vote, and I would not like to reduce it one dollar, if I thought the money was being spent to advantage. As the years pass and the country gets older we find the damage by pests of all kinds is increasing rapidly. Man is able to handle beasts of prey, lions, tigers and those animals that perhaps create a terror in the minds of man, but after all the real danger to humanity to-day is the insect pest. I suppose most hon. members have read about it, and have an idea what it means. If we have no system of combating the insect pest I have no hesitation in saying that in a short time man will be unable to live on this globe which we now inhabit.
It is all right enough for hon. gentlemen to laugh, but it is a very serious matter. Coming down to what we are more familiar with, farm life and growing of crops, we know that the pests are increasing. Out west, when we first began to grow wheat, we had no pests. Now I could name them by almost the dozen. One thing after another comes along, and we are trying to discover some method of combating not only the insect pest but fungi, such as rust. As I said in opening, I would not like to cut down the grant in any way provided the money be spent to the best advantage. We have this trouble with fruit, with trees and with the foliage, and all kinds of crops. This pest of rust means millions of dollars of loss to the wheat crops of Canada. I would like Some information as to what is beinsr done in regard to an investigation in the matter of rust. Is there any increase in the knowledge of how rust damages the wheat or where it comes from? I have listened to a great many addresses and talks about rust, but I have never heard anything to lead me to believe that we are on the way to some discovery which will combat this disease which threatens our agriculture.


William Richard Motherwell: I am very glad to welcome my hon. friend as a doubting lieutenant in this crusade against rust, and not only against rust but against all forms of insect pest and fungi, fungus diseases, because we have come to an age when it is a fight between man and the insect pest. That will 209
be our next great war, and we are right into it now. Let us examine for the moment the remarkable extension of the activities of the corn-borer in Essex, Kent and adjoining counties. It has increased from five hundred to a thousand per cent in its activities this last year, at a time when the people were beginning to think it was about exterminated. The old-fashioned potato bug has caused a complete embargo on our potatoes going into Great Britain. The high tariff of the United States stopped our potatoes going in there, and something else stopped them from going to Cuba, with the result that we have no country to which we can send our potatoes, and one of the causes is the potato bug. In British Columbia we have the fire blight which attacks apples and pears particularly, and in Australia they have placed an embargo against fruit of that class from Canada. I think the embargo was improperly placed, but it is there. All across the continent, from one end to the other, we have pests of this kind, so that in the last two decades there have been no less than seventy-two pieces of legislation, regulation and embargo, passed by the parliament of Canada against goods from other countries, and those countries in turn have passed legislation against imports from Canada, for similar reasons. So that hon. gentlemen will see that the very continuity of our trade depends upon keeping our products free from insect and fungus pests. This fact cannot be too strongly impressed upon the committee. The matter of bugs and bacteria has been made the occasion of a legitimate amount of jest, and we take advantage of it and regard it as a joke. To the man who has had his grain crop attacked by rust two or three years in succession, the thing is no joke. Ask the hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Gould) if it was a joke when the land was almost covered with grasshoppers through southern Saskatchewan and into Manitoba and Alberta. Had nature not come to the relief of the provincial government and the municipalities in the shape of a parasite these grasshoppers would not have been rounded up as quickly as they were. Last year the committee on Agriculture, after hearing Professor Gussow's very excellent address on the tremendous annual losses Canada sustains as a result of cereal diseases, including rust, recommended to the House that 850,000 be expended in the launching of a vigorous campaign against these plagues. Last year $25,000 was appropriated for this purpose, most of which was spent on equipment for the new laboratory. Last Sep-

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tember Dr. Grisdale, representing the department, and Dr. Tory, representing the Research Council, invited a number of gentlemen interested in this investigatory work both in the United States and Canada to an international rust conference at Winnipeg, and there the foundation was laid of a strong campaign on the part of both countries against these diseases. Since then there have been several meetings of the sub-committee that was appointed, and Dr. Tory, Dr. Grisdale and Dr. Murray have gone down to the United States looking for the very best men who could be found to deal with the question of fungus diseases, because we have not got in Canada a sufficient number of trained experts to take care of this work. We entered into an agreement with the college authorities of Manitoba under which as their contribution to these activities there should be set apart twenty-five acres of land close to the college buildings, with provision of heat, power and light, the federal government to supply the building and equipment.


Mr. HOEY:: What is the estimated cost of the building?


William Richard Motherwell: About S40.000, including equipment. In January last the authorities of the Dominion, Manitoba, Alberta and Saskatchewan met to lay out this work. While we wanted to proceed in cooperation with the United States authorities, we constantly reporting to them and they to us, it was felt that we should have a specific plan for Canada and that certain matters should be delegated to the Winnipeg authorities, certain others to the laboratory authorities at Saskatoon, others to Alberta and others to the Central farm at Ottawa, so that we would have the work going along concurrently at. these four points, with the central activity at Winnipeg. A good many theories have been advanced as to the cause of rust. It is known that some varieties of wheat are immune to it while others are quite susceptible. The old Scott wheat was comparatively immune, while the Clawson wheat was susceptible to it. Twelve or fifteen years ago the idea was conceived of developing a wheat plant that would be immune from rust. During the past ten years more has been learned about rust than has been learned in the preceding two hundred years, in searching about for a plant that would be immune. It has been found that there are no less than thirty-nine different species of rust, and that some varieties of wheat are immune from some of the rust species but not from others. It was thought by some that the barberry bush 
was the primary cause of the rust; that it acted as a host plant for the rust spore. It has since been discovered by experiment that these spores are carried in the upper currents of the atmosphere, usually from south to north, starting with the early ripening wheat in Texas and proceeding northward through Kansas, the Dakotas and Minnesota, and thence into Manitoba and Saskatchewan, and now to some extent in Alberta. On a calm day these spores, having been carried in the upper currents, are precipitated on the crop. A calm, murky day, with intermittent sunshine and rain, is what we call a ibad rust day.
Mr. FORKE. I doubt it. When we have had a bad attack of rust it has usually followed extreme heat.


William Richard Motherwell: If you have a
period of drought lasting three or four weeks the plant is weakened, and then when there is just enough moisture to make the rust spores develop they commence to drive their activities home on the plant. If you have it bright, fair, dry and cold, the danger from rust is not so great; it is warm enough for the growth of the wheat but too cold to encourage the rapid development of the rust. For the most -part it is a question of a neck-and-neck race. As a matter of fact, it has proved to be a neck-andLneck race. Had it been a little warmer, a little moister, a little calmer, the rust would have developed. That is the theory, and that is as far as we have got-ns far as I have got at all events. I had the privilege of meeting some of the very best experts of the United States who had made a life study of this problem, and they are all of the one mind, that one of the most fruitful sources of contagion is through the upper currents of the atmosphere, running three and four miles high and then quietly dropping. Now how are we going to ward that off? We cannot put an umbrella over the country and ward it off. We can do something practical in eradicating the barberry bush, and there is a campaign all over the United States, in every wheat state, to eradicate the barberry bush. A regular survey is being made of the country, and everywhere the barberry bush is found they go after it. That is one thing we can control, but there is no way of controlling the winds, and the waves, if you like to put it that way. Man has no dominion over the winds, especially the upper currents. I suppose some of the flying men have found that out, although they have pretty well navigated the upper currents.

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The only way to meet the difficulty is to have a rust-resisting plant developed. Any wheat that will ripen more early is more resistant to rust. Marquis wheat is more resistant. It crosses the line before the rust can get after it, and the binder is cutting. Then we have that newer wheat, Garnet, a very good wheat, which is some eight or nine days earlier. Even if it were not more resistant than Marquis, the fact that it is some eight days earlier puts it in the running.


Andrew Knox: Does not the minister think
there is a possibility of the rust starting right down at the gulf of Mexico and coming up with the wheat crop as it gradually ripens?


William Richard Motherwell: I may say, Mr. Chairman, that that is along the line of the investigational work. Those are the sources of contagion known so far, and they are confirmed by the best investigators who have made a life study of this problem in the United States. At the conference at Winnipeg, these experts were very pronounced on these two sources of contagion, and were exceedingly insistent that we should pursue our campaign against the buckthorn and the barberry, because that came within our powers. Whenever you see the barberry bush adjacent to a wheat field, you will see lots of rust in the immediate vicinity. Other sources of contagion may be discovered, and experts are working on the different breeds. Kota wheat, while not as good as some of the others is resistant to some varieties of spores, but not co them all. That is the stage, roughly speaking, where the investigation is at the present time.


Mr. LEADER:: We all appreciate the fact
that the minister is doing what he can to fight ravages of insect pests, including rust. As one who 'has had practical experience of its ravages, I wish to express my appreciation of the attempt, at least, of the government to find some solution for this problem.
Now I would like to get back to the financial end. This matter was up for discussion in the committee on Agriculture, and I think the deputy minister gave us the information that the government contemplated erecting in Winnipeg, on the Agricultural College site, a laboratory building in connection with this work. I would like to ask the minister if it is the intention of the government to go on with this building, what is the probable cost, and if they have made any arrangement with the Manitoba government, and if so, whether the 209}
Manitoba government have agreed to the arrangement made.


William Richard Motherwell: I think my hon.
friend could not have been in when I gave that information. I gave that before, as I thought it was the first information I should give. We have an agreement, signed and delivered, whereby the Manitoba government, through the College of Agriculture, supplies the land, the heat, power and light, while this government supplies the building and equipment. About $15,000 of last year's vote was devoted to equipment. We could not build in the winter, but we could buy the equipment. About $25,000 of this increase goes to put up the laboratory, and the $15,000 of equipment is ready to move in. The other $25,000 goes to another laboratory for a similar purpose in the city of Montreal.


Harry Leader: I listened to the discussion, but I wanted it brought out distinctly whether or not the Manitoba government had agreed to this. The minister says they have agreed to it. I have it upon good authority that they have not agreed to the proposition, but that is by the way.


William Richard Motherwell: What is my hon.
friend's authority for that?


Harry Leader: I have it 'here, and I can
give it to the minister.


William Richard Motherwell: There was a while
when the matter was referred from the president of the college and the president of the university to the government for confirmation, and the Premier of Manitoba drew attention to certain changes he desired, and these changes were covered by a communication from myself. So far as I know it is satisfactory. It is not material anyway; we are going ahead anyhow; we have an arrangement made.


Harry Leader: In view of the fact that we have in Manitoba a plant that cost approximately $4,000,000, not a cent of which has ever been paid-we have borrowed the money and are paying interest on it still-in view also of the fact that that plant is being utilized to only about one-half of its capacity, because although every building may be utilized for some specific purpose, they are being utilized to only one-half their capacity, I think it is a serious thing for this government or the Manitoba government to contemplate any additional expenditure for extensions to the buildings we have there now. Unless the government have made all possible investigations and have found they cannot get out
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of putting up that building, I would say to them to-night in all earnestness that they should make every attempt to see if they cannot utilize some of the buildings already there for this worthy purpose. I am heartily in accord with the work that is to be done. I wish to see it go on, and I would not be niggardly in appropriating money for this work, because it is very important work, but I would hesitate spending more public money for buildings in Winnipeg when we have already $4,000,000 tied up in buildings now, not one dollar of which has been paid.


William Richard Motherwell: We tried hard to get a little corner of that S4.000,000, but we could not, We went into it thoroughly with President McLean and President McKillican, of the Agricultural college. They have a very fine laboratory there, but it is practically all in use at the present time, and if we went in there as well we would be simply crowding each other, and that would not be a very good start for harmonious team play between two governments; it would be like a team of horses each crowding for the road, and my hon. friend knows they do not go very good that way. Then we tried to get an adjoining building, the mechanical building. W'e tried every way, and hesitated a long while because we wanted to have good equipment, but finally we were driven to the conclusion that there was only one way, and that was to put up a new building. There was no building and in such a situation as this the necessary thing is to get the land and the buildings close together. They would not let us have it under any consideration whatever, and yet it is necessary that the land should be adjacent to the building for the convenience of the work. I can assure my hon. friend that we felt and the Manitoba government felt just as strongly, the desirability of not incurring any unnecessary expense. They are quite as conscious as anybody can be that they have got all the money they want invested in buildings, and they were quite generous in their views as to the disposition of the land for this purpose, and for the provision of heat, power and light. Now an arrangement has been entered into that when we come to dissolve partnership there will be a suitable settlement arrived at.


Harry Leader: I understand that the arrangement has not been agreed to by the Manitoba government either, but I wish to stress this fact: Notwithstanding that we have this mammoth plant in Manitoba, and similar plants all over the Dominion, there is a desire for further building to carry on this work. I
	-
do not believe the members of the House begin to appreciate the amount of money that we have got tied up in public buildings in this country. On this subject I should like to read an extract from the Manitoba Free Press. This is from an interview given by the agricultural experts from the Old Country who toured this country last year. It is a short extract which is very appropriate to the subject and I will read it. It will go to show what they think of our elaborate plants in Canada.


William Richard Motherwell: Whose opinion is my hon. friend going to quote?


Harry Leader: I am going to quote from an interview given by the British experts who toured Canada last year. This extract is taken from the Manitoba Free Press of September 2, 1924. This is what it says:
All through our tour we have coveted the magnificent agricultural colleges and experimental stations of Canada. The money which has been expended on any one agricultural college in Canada is many times greater than that expended on any similar institution in the British Isles, probably more than has been spent in erecting all the similar institutions of Scotland or Ireland, and possibly of England.
Yet we find it necessary, although we have less than one-quarter the population they have, to erect additional buildings.


William Richard Motherwell: If my hon. friend thinks he can find a corner in those magnificent buildings in which we can do this work the chances are yet good. We have not started to put up the building; we are just getting the plans out.


Robert Forke: Did you try the parliament building?


William Richard Motherwell: That is reserved for another purpose. We certainly exhausted our energy in searching in every quarter we could to secure a place in which we could do good work. The fact that this is an expensive building does not necessarily imply that there will be a corresponding working space. It is a magnificent building, at least to look at, and one that you can take a pride in. At the same time there is not the room available corresponding at all to its appearance. We were not looking for grand architecture, we wanted a working laboratory, and we now have an agreement with the Manitoba government in which they have concurred. We tried to get into what they call the mechanical building, we tried to get accommodation everywhere we could, before we reached a decision. As a matter of fact we have not started to build yet

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Mr. BROWN:: I understand the buildings
are to be suitable in every way, and that a large number of hot houses will be needed to carry on this work effectively; is that true?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes, that is right.


John Livingstone Brown: I do not think there is
any more important work the government can undertake than this particular work. It is a kind of work, I think, that if it is to be done at all must be done properly.


William Richard Motherwell: Sure. .


John Livingstone Brown: There is simply no use in
attempting to do this work unless it is done well.


William Richard Motherwell: Hear, hear.


John Livingstone Brown: While none of us like to see more buildings put up than are necessary, yet I can appreciate the fact that this special work requires a particular kind of building, and a somewhat expensive kind of building too.


William Richard Motherwell: Hear, hear.


John Livingstone Brown: For my part while I would urge the most economical construction possible in this building, I would not like to put a stone in the way of carrying out the proposition that has been entered into for it is most important work that we are engaged in.


Harry Leader: May I just add a word
or two. I think it is most important to carry on this work also; I do not want the committee for a moment to imagine I am opposing the work undertaken by the government. But I am protesting against any additional expenditure in public buildings, and I want the fact brought out that either this government or the Manitoba government will be held responsible by the people for this further expenditure on public buildings. If this government claims that it could not get along without this building, that there was nothing suitable already available, it will have to take the blame. An/, if the Manitoba government says "We cannot accommodate you in our buildings, they are for our own private use," they will have to take the blame and the responsibility for their action before the people.


William Richard Motherwell: After the generous *way in which the committee on Agriculture took hold of this last year, and made the recommendation that $25,000 should be devoted to the desired object, we would have been very remiss in our duty if we did not go forward with this work just as rapidly as we could. We
have done so. We could not get the buildings sought, and we have entered into an agreement with the Manitoba government. That government has agreed' to the arrangement. Oh yes. My hon. friend (Mr. Leader) will have to do more than shake his head. I do not know what he has got there to the contrary. I have written to the Premier of Manitoba and we have an agreement with the authorities of the university. There was a time when the Manitoba government did point to the necessity of some supplementary understanding so -that in the event of our dissolving (partnership there would be a friendly dissolution. I may say further that our working relations with the Manitoba government have been most friendly and cordial from the beginning, and in order to have those relations continue it was necessary to have that thorough understanding and then start out. I think we are in good shape to do good work. May I point -out to my hon. friend that the very fact that we are co-operating with them is another indication that we are trying to cut out unnecessary duplication. We are working in conjunction not only with the government of Manitoba but also with the governments of Alberta and Saskatchewan. I think my hon friend is just 'getting -the wrong steer on that question, the wrong slant on it, that is all. He has -got, well a little bit of something to talk about, you know.


Harry Leader: I can assure the minister that I have not got-did he say?-a wrong steer. I have got the authority in my hand to establish that the Manitoba government has not yet approved of this.


William Richard Motherwell: What date is that?


Harry Leader: It is dated March 10, 1925.


William Richard Motherwell: Oh that is quite a while ago.


Harry Leader: It is a letter from a private individual, but I have no hesitation in letting the minister see the -signature.


William Richard Motherwell: Well, my -goodness, governments I know are proverbially slow but nevertheless there has surelly been time -to adjust the matter since March 10. I will take my hon. friend's word for it that the date is M-arch 10, but just -the same I assure him that there was not -a hitch or a disagreement with the Manitoba authorities. They did think however that there should be a -thorough understanding in the event of a time coming when we thought it desirable to dissolve partnership on the work. However, I accept my hon. friend's statement that the date he speaks of was two months ago.
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Harry Leader: In the committee on Agriculture the intimation was given by the Deputy Minister of Agriculture that they could not get the building owing to the attitude of the Manitoba govern-
10 p,m. ment, that they did not think anything there suited them. Immediately after that I wrote to Winnipeg and received this letter, so the arrangement was not completed on that date, March 10.


William Richard Motherwell: Pardon me I do
not want to be like the individual that wants the last word, but is not that two months ago? We are talking of conditions to-day. That was over two months ago.


Harry Leader: Yes but I understand you claim an arrangement was made before the deputy minister made his announcement in the committee which was before March 10.


William Richard Motherwell: Oh well!


Mr. MILNE:: As one who has been following this proposal very closely I want to say at the outset that I am very pleased indeed to see the co-operative spirit that exists between the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, also the progress towards an international arrangement that has been made with the northern states interested in this same rust problem. I think the parties interested are greatly to be praised for bringing about- this cordial spirit of co-operation in a movement to overcome the dreaded disease known as rust. In regard to the buildings at Winnipeg I understand that a committee of the university met the officers of the federal Department of Agriculture and both parties went to the agricultural college and made a thorough survey. Personally, I was firmly of opinion that space should be -available at that institution to carry on this work. Not being familiar with the technical rpart of this work, I must confess that I have %>een compelled to give way to the opinions of those who have made a study and know something of it. The report of the committee was that it was impossible to get laboratory, greenhouse and field space that could be so arranged at the present time as to carry on the work efficiently. I am convinced that the parties who were looking into this matter were doing so with the intention of doing the best possible in fighting this disease. Consequently, I give way to the officials who have decided that it is impossible to get the proper space. But I feel so strongly on the question that sometimes I would almost like to ask the department, even yet, if it is not too late, to see if it is not possible to get 	i
some space there and not to spend more money than is absolutely essential. I may be wrong. But I have the feeling sometimes that some of our scientific men have a tendency towards extravagance and ask for things just a little more handy than is absolutely necessary for really efficient work. I do not want to hamper the efficiency of the staff in any way, but I should like the government to do the work as cheaply and economically as they possibly can. If the building is not under way yet, I feel so strongly on this that I w'ould almost suggest that a new survey of available space should be made. I am not casting any reflection upon the officers or the committee that looked into this question. I believe they were sincere and anxious to bring about the best possible results and I am going to leave it at that. I am going to give way regarding this question if these scientific men are firmly convinced that it is impossible to carry on the work efficiently in the present buildings. I will not oppose the expenditure for a moment, because it is essential that something be done immediately to combat this disease.


William Richard Motherwell: While we have already had three surveys made for the purpose in view that the hon. member mentions, that is to see if we could not find some of these buildings suitable for the work, one survey being made in September immediately after the international conference when I was there, the next in January and the last in April, in spite of that, I will assure my hon. friend that we shall draw the matter again to Premier Bracken's attention and send him a marked copy of Hansard showing this discussion. If any space is discovered in the meantime, it is not too late, but we must proceed as quickly as possible with the work. You have expected us to do that. Are there any other suggestions, because this is a work which people have been at for years and years, and in my estimation, we are only in the a-b-c of it. I- am not beguiled by the thought that we are going to solve this problem in a year. It may take five years or it may take twenty-five years. This committee is aware of the research work that has been done during the last twenty-five years in regard to the eradication of tuberculosis. There is still something to be done that will immunize animals and mankind too from the ravages of this disease. Those who are doing this work are getting hotter, as the saying is. They are coming to know more about it. No man, however, can tell yet what may be accomplished. All we know is that there is

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sufficient persistence in man to surmount this difficulty in time.


Robert Alexander Hoey: Provided that no suitable
building is discovered at the college or in the city of Winnipeg, is it the intention of the department to go ahead with the new building this season?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes. The land is secured and the plans are all prepared1.


Andrew Knox: The minister asks for suggestions. I would suggest that we have a university at Saskatoon where suitable buildings might be found.


William Richard Motherwell: Some of the work is being done there by Mr. Fraser, a very good man. He has associates there, and he is doing the work under the supervision of President Murray who is so intensely interested in it that he went down into the United States to help us to hunt three good men for the work.


Mr. EVANS:: I appreciate the importance of carrying on this work, but at the same time I wish to add my protest to that of the hon. member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Leader). The Dominion seems top-heavy with public buildings from one end to the other.


William Richard Motherwell: What is the particular protest now?


John Evans: That we should not go on with this building on th.e campus of the university at Winnipeg.


William Richard Motherwell: Where should we
put it?


John Evans: I believe we could have
found room at Saskatoon. I do not believe it is necessary that this work should be carried on at Winnipeg. We have at Saskatoon many public buildings that I do not think are overcrowded at all, and we could have found room there. The work will be temporary to a large extent, and I am inclined to think, if we are going to find a remedy at all, we shall do so very soon. We are spending rather too much money in bricks and mortar throughout the Dominion in the present financial state of this country. With all the empty buildings that there are in the cities we could have found room for this work without putting up another building costing as much as it is expected to cost.


Henry Herbert Stevens: We have been hearing
some objections to expenditures. I want to bring something to the attention of the minister, and I hasten to do so now because I have
been waiting for just fifty minutes to get a chance to ask the minister a question. While this discussion is very interesting and instructive, I think this is important. We are now discussing the administration of the Destructive Insect and Pest Act. I have here a compilation from the Auditor General's report of the amounts spent last year in travelling expenses in the Department of Agriculture. I want to give this list to the minister now and to suggest that perhaps too much money is being spent in this way which could be better spent in actual work. I am not unduly complaining, but I think sometimes if we get the magnitude of these expenditures, it will lead, perhaps, to greater economy. This is a list of the travelling expenses in the Department of Agriculture, including the item that is under discussion now, for the year ended March 31, 1924.


William Richard Motherwell: For all purposes?


Henry Herbert Stevens: Yes. It does not include automobiles. I am making that reservation. That must be added, whatever the cost of
them may be:
Officials at Ottawa.. ..		 $86,591	68
Outside service-
Agricultural Instruction	Act	
1,065	58Dairying	
36,431	62Destructive Insect and	Pest	Act	
71,300	54Experimental farms	
39.063	14Fruits	
55,271	37Health of animals	
253,817	53Livestock industry	
271.996	93Seed, feed, and fertilizer control	
50,744	79Total	
$866,283 18
I checked some of the details although I had not time to go into the matter very closely. But I was interested to find if possible some reason for the excessive expenditure and I discovered, for example, that at one experimental farm there were two men whose travelling expenses, although their per diem allowance was the same, differed considerably.
I have not the details before me, but speaking from memory I should say that one man for a lesser number of days had double the amount of travelling expenses. I found the same sort of thing in several instances, and I think that we may fairly assume that the / man with the lower expense account is a good official who is careful of the public's money. The man who has an inordinate travelling expense account, with the same per diem allowance, although he does not travel the same number of days, certainly is not so good an official, or at any rate the indication is that there is some laxity. This magnificent vote is given without any grudge to agriculture year after year because, I think, the whole country is anxious to promote the work that
Supply-A griculture

is done and is ready to give it general support. But when we find an item of $866,000 in one year for travelling expenses, exclusive of the cost of a large number of automobiles and so on, then I say that there is something that evidently merits very careful consideration.
There should be a strict investigation on the part of the minister or on the part of competent officials in his department into the whole question. A first class accountant, one of his own staff, might be directed to check up this class of expenditure. I venture to say that if this were done a saving of 20 per cent could easily be effected; indeed, I should not be surprised if the department could save 30 or 40 per cent. But suppose we put it at 25 per cent; that would represent a saving of over $200,000, a considerable sum. I know that the minister is an exceedingly busy man, and all that is necessary in the circumstances is to call this abnormal expenditure to his attention to have this extravagance curtailed.


William Richard Motherwell: That is a fair
enough criticism. But where the work of a department like that of agriculture is largely educational and is carried on by officials who are not fixed in any particular locality, the expenditure must of necessity be largely for salaries and travelling expenses. The hon. member (Mr. Caldwell) reminds me of the question of certified potatoes. Well, there are thirty or thirty-five competent men set aside for work in this connection in the Maritime provinces, and their expenses are practically all for travelling. I presume the cost of transportation on the mileage' basis would be the same there as anywhere else but the general expenses would depend on the nature of the locality they were in. I must impress upon the committee the fact that a close check is kept by means of vouchers on all these expenses. The men are not given a flat per diem allowance; it is transportation plus whatever it costs them, and that as I say would depend upon the district in which they were travelling. For instance, in some of the cities of British Columbia and % the west there are some exceedingly fine hotels, and if the officials found it necessary to put up at some hotel in Calgary or Vancouver the cost would naturally be higher than it would be in some other parts of the country. I do not suppose they would take either the worst or the best hotels; they would go to middle class places. But even there there would be a vast difference and their expenses would be greater than if they were travelling in districts where the hotels are of a modest character. One man might [Mr. Stevens.}
take a long trip to Calgary or even to Victoria and necessarily his expense account would be high; it would be higher than the account of some other man travelling somewhere else. Take the health of animals branch; there are in connection with that branch 140 veterinary surgeons and the vote is nearly $2,000,000. Now, outside o,f something like $700,000 for indemnification in respect of animals slaughtered for tuberculosis the rest practically all goes in salaries and expenses. You cannot station a man at every point where the services of an official are required; these men must travel around. I can quite understand the feeling of my hon. friend who says that the expense is enormous. It is enormous; but I do not see how it is to be avoided. The only thing that can be done, and that is what we are doing, is to keep a close check on all expense accounts. An accountant who is familiar with accounts of this sort easily recognizes where padding takes place, and occasionally that occurs in all departments. But I do not think that our men are extravagant; I do not believe that they patronize hotels which are beyond their reach and which they would not patronize on their own account.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I hope the minister will accept my criticism as he did a moment ago, in good part.


William Richard Motherwell: I do.


Henry Herbert Stevens: There are inspectors of fruit and butter and other things, and I think that an effort should be made to have each man cover two or three departments of activity. Take the inspector of butter and eggs and the inspector of fruit in grocery stores, who all come under the various federal acts. There is no reason why one inspector should not cover most of these fields. It might require a bit of co-ordination but it could be done and it would save a good deal of' expense. I have met in different towns and cities groups of officers of the department who were all there at the same time. I have no doubt they are quite serious in the performance of their duties, but I do believe that much could be done to reduce this enormous sum.
The case I mentioned was not in an expensive city. I do not want to mention any names, because I have no desire to drag the officials into this House. But the case I have in mind occurred at one of the experimental farms in central Canada and it was such a glaring case that I checked up two or three1 similar items. I think that a perusal of the Auditor General's report by an accountant in

Supply-Agriculture
the department familiar with these matters might lead to a demand for an explanation in cases where there is an obvious difference; and this would have a salutary effect on some officials who are inclined to be extravagant, which perhaps is a tendency to which human nature is prone to give way.


William Richard Motherwell: These remarks are quite all right, and as a matter of fact we are doing that very thing now in one or two cases which I am sorry to have to look into. With regard to assigning a multiplicity of duties to one man, this is being done in some cases.
I might mention the Fruit and Vegetable Act under which we have some inspectors that are doing a dual work. In the Seed branch we have seed, feed and fertilizer. The same inspector looks after all these three products, and we have recently added to the duties the inspection of hides and hay. We have been requested for legislation in connection with commercial poison for spraying fruit and trees, and if we pass legislation with respect to that it will be added to the duties of the same class of inspectors under the Seed branch. I question whether we can do that in that department, but we can do it where conditions lend themselves to it. Take the case of the egg inspectors; we have so few of them in comparison with the extent of the country that they are on the hop, skip and jump continuously and it takes them all their time to go after old Biddy and her chicks. I do not think we can add anything to their duties. But wherever it can be done it is being done. In the Seed branch now there is such a great amount of work we wonder where they would come in on this proposition. They are working with the additional load without the additional salary. We have been asked to raise their salaries, owing to the multiplicity of their duties. However, anybody who has endeavoured to obtain reclassification from the Civil Service Commission knows that he has a job ahead of him. In the main we are working along the lines indicated. We have been told that these expenditures are too large. We have looked at them, reviewed them, and re-reviewed and got our accountants to look over them, and occasionally we find places where we can check them. up. Now the hon. member for Saskatoon (Mr. Evans) has a protest. That is quite all right, coming from my hon. friend. We expect that. That is the way he is built. He protested against unnecessary expenditure in capital outlay. That point was well taken by him, but before he sat down he was quite
agreeable to it if the money was spent in Saskatoon. I do not know whether he is exactly consistent in the position he takes.


John Evans: The minister is mistaken
there.


William Richard Motherwell: I will be glad to accept a correction.


John Evans: I said we could find room without constructing any building.


William Richard Motherwell: My hon. friend did not protest against the expenditure. He thought the expenditure was all right. Is that the understanding?


John Evans: No, not for that building.


William Richard Motherwell: Then the hon.
gentleman does not want it at Saskatoon. Well, all right, we understand it. I am afraid my hon. friend wants to have his eye both ways, first on the treasury and then on his constituency. Well, there is no harm in that.


John Evans: Let me put the minister
right. I protested against the construction of a new building, and I said I thought room could be found without constructing any building.


William Richard Motherwell: Then my hon.
friend did not want it at Saskatoon.


Mr. ROBINSON:: Is any portion of this
money to be spent in fumigating plants in the Maritime provinces?


William Richard Motherwell: I believe there
should be. We have one building at St. John at the present time. I did not visit it when I was there, as I passed through rapidly and had not time, but I understand it is not quite modem in its construction and has not the accommodation required. I understand from my deputy that without much expenditure the one at St. John can be fixed up, but I recognize that is not in Nova Scotia. I think my hon. friend refers to Halifax.


Clifford William Robinson: I wanted to know about the nursery stock that comes 'into Nova Scotia from Upper Canada. Is that stock to be fumigated before going in there from the nursery?


William Richard Motherwell: It has to be fumigated somewhere if it comes from outside Canada.


Clifford William Robinson: It is fumigated at St.
John.


Mr. GOULD:: I wish to say a word on
behalf of the minister and his estimates.
Supply-Agriculture

I recollect well that in the committee on Agriculture we listened to an able address on the question of rust by Dr. Gussow, and an animated discussion immediately followed the address. I might state that I liked that address much better than I liked the address on hog raising.


William Richard Motherwell: The hon. gentleman did not think much of the address on hog raising.


Oliver Robert Gould: But after the animated discussion before the committee on Agriculture last year, we made a unanimous request for a grant of $50,000 for the commencement of the construction of the plant for investigational purposes in regard to rust. When we suffer $90,000,000 damage per year from the ravages of rust, surely hon. gentlemen in this chamber cannot very well criticize an expenditure of $25,000 voted last year, which was only one-half thp amount asked for, and one-fourth of the amount which Dr. Gussow recommended, namely $100,000. I think we are just a little too earnest in the application of economy. In my opinion that is false economy.


William Richard Motherwell: Hear, hear.


Oliver Robert Gould: Because it is a fact we have been losing the wealth of this country to the extent of $90,000,000 a year through the ravages of rust, and the Dominion government at last is waking up to the enormity of this thing and is working in co-operation with the United States Department of Agriculture and in co-operation with the provinces, and probably in the near future we will reach a solution. When we asked for $50,000 last year I understood it was to provide a hothouse, in which to carry on experiments with the barberry bush, which serves as a host plant for the rust germ, and in which scientists could follow the activities of the rust germ particularly through the winter season, something that- up to the present time in Canada they have not been able to do. Now if it is necessary to spend money to provide these facilities, I think it is altogether wrong and false economy to suggest that the expenditure should be spread over three or four years, because if the money were spent pt the present time the trouble could be overcome. It is wise to expend it in the first place, and then in the years to come we will hope to lose less than $90,000 000 a year. I rise to support the vote, I accept the word of the minister that they have done all they can, and I realize that in using Winnipeg as the location more facilities are offered for the professors at. the universities to the south to come in 
and confer with them, whereas Saskatoon is much further away and more expense would be involved if the experimental plant were located there. I did make a recommendation to the minister in regard to this matter. Arrangements have been made with the University of Manitoba, and the preliminary work is being commenced there. The minister may be sure I will always support any reasonable expenditure for the investigation of rust and insect pests in this country.


Robert James Manion: I would be the last to
protest against any expenditure on behalf of the agriculturists of this country, but one cannot help being startled at the expenditure of $866,000 in one year on travelling expenses in one department. I believe there are 420 employees, which would make an average of over $2,000 each for travelling expenses in the year.


William Richard Motherwell: The 420 are the
employees in Ottawa. There are about 1,600 all told.


Robert James Manion: Even at that we have
about $500 each for travelling. At any rate, $866,000 is a startling figure. Perhaps I owe an apology to gentlemen I criticized for making a trip to Wembley. I remember the chief whip of the Liberal party was very severe in his criticisms of one minister who spent $10.000, or nearly that, on a trip overseas with his secretaries, but this amount of nearly a million in one department makes these other expenditures look like shadow-boxing in comparison. It seems to me the minister could in this respect save some thousands of dollars, without reduction of efficiency, to the people who are already severely burdened with taxation. I cannot help thinking that a great deal of this $866,000 was unnecessarily expended.


William Richard Motherwell: Can my hon. friend point to where it could be cut down?


Robert James Manion: That is not my business;
it is for the minister to do that.


William Richard Motherwell: The work of this
department is largely educational and must be done for the most part through travelling by members of the staff. The travelling expense is one-seventh of the whole expenditure of the department, and I am surprised it is not more. There is need, of course, for careful supervision, and I think it has got it. My hon. friend's feelings in the matter, as one who has not had any experience in administering affairs relating to agriculture, are easily understood. Anyone not knowing anything about it would think just as he does.

Supply-Agriculture


Grote Stirling: What progress has been
made in the control of the codling moth? I understand that in British Columbia that control is shared between the provincial and the Dominion governments; is that the case in the other provinces?


William Richard Motherwell: We have been fumigating cars, banding trees, spraying, and taking other steps to circumscribe the activities of this moth. Every country is protecting itself against the invasion of these noxious insects, therefore it behooves us to be alert in their suppression, and, if possible, their extermination. As to the sharing of the control, that depends on the province. Some provinces will take hold of it and others will not. In every province, however, steps are being -taken to eradicate this pest.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Publications, $18,500.
Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I think the department might well cust down on some of these publications. I know they send out a list so that persons interested imay indicate the publications they desire, and that is a wise thing to do, but I -cannot help thinking -that we are spending too much money on publications that are seldom or nev-er read.


William Richard Motherwell: Formerly there was an indiscriminate distribution of this kind of literature, but that is not done now. The publications are sent out only on application.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Are there no -publications sent out by the Agriculture department except on request?


William Richard Motherwell: 
Mr. MacLEAN (Prince):: Is any information given in these publications regarding experiments with sugar beets such as have been carried on at Winnipeg by -this new firm which has offered -to distribute seed from Germany
for the sugar beet industry? Can any of that seed be obtained?


William Richard Motherwell: I remember having some correspondence with my colleague the Minister of National Defence with regard to certain c'ubs organized in the Maritime provinces, to whose members the Central farm distributes beet seed. The request was made that these clubs be increased in membership from a possible fifty to a possible one hundred.


Alfred Edgar MacLean: Would that be the same seed as is used in Germany?


William Richard Motherwell: No. This is Ontario grown seed. In addition to that we analyse the beets, so as to keep them in the direction of growing the highest quality of beets.


Alfred Edgar MacLean: I suppose the
minister is aware that this company in Winnipeg is distributing beet seed.


William Richard Motherwell: That is a private company.


Alfred Edgar MacLean: Is it distributing a different class of seed altogether?


William Richard Motherwell: We distribute Ontario grown seed, but, of course, originally most of this seed was imported. I think some of the Winnipeg seed is imported.


Alfred Edgar MacLean: Does the minister think the beets test out as good for sugar?


William Richard Motherwell: The Ontario grown seed produces a higher testing beet than the seed we have been importing.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Due to the mild criticism that I offered of this vote a few minutes ago, I do want after looking the matter over, to commend the minister for having cut this down $15,000 from last year. How much was spent under this head last year, and was the reduction due to the fact that you were not spending as much, or because you were cutting down the publications?


William Richard Motherwell: This vote is for distribution, and the cost is borne by the respective branches.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: This does not include
the printing?


William Richard Motherwell: No. The reduction is due to the fact that we have no longer got the expense of distributing the Agricultural Gazette. Formerly that was not only distributed but printed out of this vote.
Supply-Agriculture


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Am I to understand
that it costs $18,500 merely to distribute these pamphlets? Is that postage, or are they delivered by special messenger, or how?


William Richard Motherwell: I will give my hon. friend the cost of the different items. First, there is the cost of advertising our publications. Sometimes when we have anything new to send out we put a very small ad in our farm papers, and that results in requests for the publication. Envelopes alone cost $8,000, labour $3,GD0, 'equipment and maintenance $2,000, postage, express and cartage $2,000, printing and stationary $2,500.


Henry Herbert Stevens: How many envelopes
would there be in that $8,OGO? I do not want to be picayune, but $8,000 is an enormous sum for cheap manilla envelopes.


William Richard Motherwell: I understand this
would cover several millions of envelopes.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Are envelopes used in
practically every case? The Department of Labour have adopted, not an envelope, but the publication is rolled up and pasted at one end with a little strip of mucilage. That would cost I should think one-quarter of what the envelopes would cost.


William Richard Motherwell: We have not used that.


Mr. STANSELL:: To what extent are
applications being made for these publications, in Ontario, for instance?


William Richard Motherwell: I understand that
in Ontario the applications will run up to about half a million. It depends upon how much we advertise. If we put a small notice in the farm press indicating a number of bulletins that are available, we generally find a run on those afterwards. We have not very much money for advertising, and when you limit the advertising, the demand is less. If we spent more in advertising, the chances are the demand would be greater; so it just depends what you are seeking. I do not think we have done much advertising of any kind lately for the simple reason that we have not the money.


Grote Stirling: Over and above that,
is there a mailing list for all Canada to whom you send each one of these publications?


William Richard Motherwell: There is no recognized mailing list except for t/he publication we call Seasonable Hints, but if a request comes in for the bulletins that are issued on vegetables, gardening, or anything like that,

these would be sent. But there is no regular mailing list except for Seasonable Hints.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: There are lists of the
department's publications sent out to individuals, and they are asked to mark an X opposite the publications they wish mailed to them during the year. You must have some mailing list for taking care of these requests.


William Richard Motherwell: They go out in
the same envelope with Seasonable Hints.


Mr. DOUCET:: Do I understand that
$18,500 is for the purpose of distribution only, or does it include also the cost of printing?


William Richard Motherwell: Just for distribution.


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: According to the Auditor
General's report for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1924, page 879, the disbursements on publications amount to $28,500. Of that amount the King's Printer, for printing, receives $17,235.97. Apparently 60 per cent of the vote went for printing. Now if the minister claims, as he does claim, that the item of $18,500 does not include printing, surely there must be an excess in expenditure in the other items as compared with the fiscal year 1923-1924.


William Richard Motherwell: It is obvious we
could not get those into the public accounts of a year or two ago. What other year is my hon. friend referring to? Last year? Well, the publication of the Agricultural Gazette, as intimated a moment ago, was charged to this account in addition to the distribution. Now we are not publishing it, and next year's vote will not show any item in that regard.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Under what vote will
the publication of the Agricultural Gazette appear this year?


William Richard Motherwell: We are not publishing it.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: You are not publishing it?


William Richard Motherwell: No it has been
dropped.


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: If I understand the minister correctly he says that the elimination of the publication of the Agricultural Gazette is responsible for the reduction of this vote; but in the Auditor General's report for 192324 the principal items, apart from the printing of the Agricultural Gazette, are stationery,

Supply-Agriculture
$4,000 odd and wages and labour $4,000 odd, amounting to between eight and nine thousand dollars. The others are aid insignificant items. Now this vote is double that amount, and surely it cannot be for distribution purposes only. A short time ago the minister said that certain items, I did not quite catch the amount, were to cover postage and express charges. I fail to see why the department has to pay postage on periodicals or pamphlets that are mailed out. They certainly must go through the mails free as all publication emanating from the departments do.


The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Fortier):: Shall
the item carry?


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: Do you not think, Mr. Chairman, I am entitled to a reply to the arguments I have advanced. There must be something else besides the cost of distribution to account for a vote of $18,500, when in the last fiscal year of which we have a record all the various items, apart from printing, only amount to something like $8,000.


William Richard Motherwell: I can only go over my explanation again if that is what my hon. friend wants. Perhaps the hon. gentleman was not in when I read the itemized account.


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: I was in my seat.


William Richard Motherwell: Then what my hon. friend wants now is to reconcile the difference between this and what appears to be the expenditure for another year. I do not think I am called upon to reconcile the difference. It will be accounted for next year. The activities of the year to which my hon. friend alludes were based upon another vote altogether. One large item of expenditure was the Agricultural Gazette which was a veiy expensive publication. It was printed on very high-class paper and, if I remember rightly, had an expensive cover. I understand from my deputy that it cost about $15,000; I do not know if that includes the cost of distribution or not. Yes, it does include the cost of distribution. So there you have $15,000. That one item alone plus the $18,000 would make $33,500. I do not know what figures my hon. friend wants to harmonize but assuming that I am correct the total of the two amounts would be $33,500.


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: I think I made it plain
that in the year 1923-24 when the department was publishing or having published the Agricultural Gazette and for which an item appears in the Auditor General's report of $17,235 for the King's printer-


William Richard Motherwell: For the Gazette
alone?


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: For the Gazette mostly.


William Richard Motherwell: It costs a little
more than I said.


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: -the balance of the vote amounted to less than 810,000. Now, with lessened activities for the year 1925-26 there being a decrease in expenditure of $103,500, we are called upon to vote $10,000 more for distribution, and yet the publication of the Gazette has been eliminated. If the minister wants to reconcile the figures he must show wherein it costs $10,000 more to distribute today the publications of his department when the Agricultural Gazette is not being circulated and the activities of the whole department are less.


William Richard Motherwell: You want to know what we are doing with the $17,000 we are saving, is that it?


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: No.


William Richard Motherwell: That is what I
understand. We are not publishing the Gazette now. The Gazette cost $17,000 and the amount must be reduced by that sum.


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: I will try and make it plain this time.


William Richard Motherwell: If my hon. friend
will just sit down a moment I will explain. We are sending out additional literature to the Wembley exhibition which is going to continue for another year. Last year our vote for distribution was increased because of the extra distribution that was necessary by reason of the Wembley exhibition. This year the distribution of publications at Wembley will continue in greater degree so that there will be that much more for this particular purpose, although the publication of the Gazette has ceased. In other words the fact that there is more business accounts for it.


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: That is quite right. Had
the minister given the information, when he was first asked, that more publications were being sent to the Wembley exhibition we would have understood why the vote was increased. But to my mind the amount is still too high because when the Gazette was being circulated the distribution cost less than $8,000, and to-day with no Gazette circulated the cost of the distribution of publications amounts to $18,000.


William Richard Motherwell: Well it is all right now anyway.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Agriculture
International Institute of Agriculture, $13,500.
Henry Herbert Stevens: Is this vote for the International Institute at Rome


William Richard Motherwell: Yes. The committee will remember that last year I promised that I would endeavour to consolidate this branch with the main department under the assistant deputy minister. That has been done and it has resulted not only in a small saving in connection with this i'em but also .a saving under the heading of civil government. By that consolidation we have saved one salary and a little bit more, 'but work will be carried on just as before.


John Evans: I should like to ask if this
vote represents a grant to that institution, or is it intended to cover the expenses of a delegate to Rome?


William Richard Motherwell: Part of it is for the
library in the west block. We have a very valuable and a very complete library there. Part is for the usual cost of administration in the way of maintenance and supplies, and the balance is for the maintenance of the offices in Rome where a permanent staff is kept towards the expense of which we
11 p.m. contribute a proportionate share in common with some thirty other countries interested in the same work. Here is how the total of $13,500 is made up: Contribution made towards the maintenance of the International Institute at Rome, $8,900; maintenance of library, binding, stationery, subscriptions, and so forth in Ottawa, $4,600. The cost of the offices at Rome, like every other institution has gone up, as the saying is, since the war, and the result is that we find this part of the expenditure continually growing. On the other hand we have effected a reduction in expenditure through the consolidation which I mentioned.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: What other countries
contribute to the upkeep of this institution?


William Richard Motherwell: Nearly every civilized country in Europe that is in the League of Nations.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: What do we get in return for this outlay?


William Richard Motherwell: We do not get some of the things we thought we were going to get, but on the other hand we get some things more than we bargained for. For instance, we get a little more expense for maintaining the offices. But if you are going to work in conjunction with the nations of the world, whether it be in the League of Nations or

in this kind of a league, some expenditure is necessary.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I realize that you cannot put down in dollars and cents what you get in return; but what service do we get from this institute, and does the minister consider this is money well spent?


William Richard Motherwell: In a few weeks we shall get the complete acreage of the world and statistics of the various cereals. That is compiled and centralized there and it is redistributed throughout the world. Every civilized country is in the League of Nations now and some that are not in the League of Nations are in this. David Lubin was the enthusiast that travelled all over the world with the idea in mind of organizing this institute. I had the pleasure of meeting him, and I was inspired to some extent by his vision of what could Ibe accomplished. In the fall of the year it is worth while knowing where Canada-stands in relation to other countries in the matter of cereal production. We discovered first through that source what our status was. We discovered two years ago authentically that we were the largest wheatexporting country in the world. Statistics are sometimes not as reliable as they might be, but this is a really authentic source of statistics. I have never heard of it being disputed, and I consider for the amount of money we are spending, we get a reasonably good service. I understand that sixty-two countries participate in this activity.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I am going to suggest
to the minister that we have been very-patient and, I think, very moderate with him to-night. The hour is getting late. We sat very- late last night, and I think we have sat very late every night this week except Wednesday when we did not sit at night. I would suggest- that we might adjourn at this late hour.


William Richard Motherwell: I feel so good
natured to-night that I am ready to submit to anything that is requested.


Robert James Manion: We have submitted to a
good deal.


William Richard Motherwell: Let us finish this
item.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I have followed the
work of the International Institute of Agriculture with a good deal of interest, and I am not as optimistic as to the value we are getting to-day as I was some years ago. For instance, I think the statistics we get are so

Supply-Agriculture
old before we get them they are not of very much benefit to the producer in Canada.


William Richard Motherwell: We get them very
promptly.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I am quite sure of this statement, that there is a possibility that they are of more benefit to the speculator, let us say in wheat or commodities of that kind, than they are to the producer.


William Richard Motherwell: It works both ways.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: If this information were made available to the producer so that he might know whether there was a shortage of cereals in the world supply or not, he would know better whether he should sell at the price offered or not. If some method were devised of making this more readily available to the producer or if the information were made available earlier in the season, it might be of more benefit to him. I am not, however, opposing the vote. This institute performs a useful function.


William Richard Motherwell: My hon. friend has a popular misconception of the uses to which it may be put. When the statistics indicate a very large crop, that naturally has the effect of lowering the price. An abundance all over means as a rule lower prices. But when you get the other information, as we did last year, from a reliable source that the crop is quite short, this has the other effect. Up goes the price. The question is one of getting the information in a reliable fashion in this way or in an unreliable way through any other medium. This goes through the press in the regular way.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I have in mind something that happened to us in the potatogrowing section of New Brunswick in 1916, I think it was. It was when the Canada Food board was functioning. I will agree at once with the minister that the reliability of these statistics is all important. In that year a report was issued that there -were to be 28,000,000 bushels of potatoes for export in Canada.. Potatoes were selling in New Brunswick at $2 a barrel out in the field at that time which was in October. We had never exported more than 4,000,000 bushels prior to that. We were selling in the United States and Cuba, the United States market not being closed then by the Fordney duties. This had such a disturbing effect, that the wholesalers in the countries in which we were selling, believing we had such an abnormal crop for export, immediately dropped the price. They would not buy except for present requirements.


William Richard Motherwell: It was not the
institute that got out that report.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: No. The Canada Food board. I am speaking of the reliability of the statistics. Immediately after the report was issued, the price dropped to $1.50 a ban-el, and within three weeks it went down to 80 cents and it continued so during the whole winter. Instead of exporting 28,000,000 bushels, we exported the usual quantity of 4,000,000 bushels, and there was a shortage in other places with the result that in April, after the New Brunswick crop was all sold, the price rose to as high as $7 a barrel because there were none to be had. That year I claim-and I have made this statement more than once in this House-that they beat the potato producers in New Brunswick out of a profitable price for their potatoes. It cost about $1.50 a barrel to grow them in New Brunswick and the price was 80 cents a barrel. If that report had not been issued, potatoes would have been selling at $2 a barrel. Our supply ran short in March and we did not have enough to supply the market during the shortage in other countries.


William Richard Motherwell: Is that not an argument in favour of getting information through a really reliable source?


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Yes. But I think we
should be absolutely sure of the reliability before the statistics are published. That report did us more damage in New Brunswick than we have recovered from since.


Mr. PRITCHARD:: Has this item anj
connection with a vote passed this afternoon in regard to the grant to the Imperial Institute? That was in the estimates of the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Stewart).


William Richard Motherwell: It has no connection. Each department runs its own show.


Henry Elvins Spencer: In the co-ordinating of
these two departments, how many employees has the minister been able to let out?


William Richard Motherwell: Three altogether,
the director and two of the staff. We are retaining the librarian and three others, and the work is all under the assistant deputy minister.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Was the minister able
by this to let out the institute commissioner?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes, but that comes out of civil government. It does not show in this reduction.
Supply-A gricul ture


Henry Elvins Spencer: Was he giving satisfaction, or was he let out because he was not giving satisfaction?


William Richard Motherwell: I could give two or three reasons that would all be true, but the principal reason is that there was never any necessity for a branch there at all as far as I could see. As in some other cases, it was established for the purpose of giving someone a position. There was no justification for a separate. branch.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: That is reason enough.


William Richard Motherwell: I promised the
committee last j'ear that I would try to consolidate the work, and this I am endeavouring to do all along the line.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Is not the institute largely a statistical organization?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Why should it not be linked up with the Bureau of Statistics? It would seem to be a wise thing to have all the statistical branches of the government together.


William Richard Motherwell: I discussed the
matter with the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Low), but if I handed the work over to him it would inflate his expenses. It was discussed just before we were preparing the estimates and we decided to let it stay as it was. Of course, all information in regard to agriculture as well as other industries, so far as exports are concerned, is compiled through the Department of Trade and Commerce. That is where the director of this institute gets his information for transmission to Rome.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Did not the institute publish a Bulletin of Foreign Intelligence, advertising what was going on through the institute at Rome? If so, is that still being sent out?


William Richard Motherwell: We ourselves do
not'publish any bulletin of this description; it is published at the head office at Rome and distributed throughout Canada. That is the part of the service they give in return for the money they get.


Henry Elvins Spencer: I was informed that formerly 13,000 copies were sent out. Has that number been reduced?


William Richard Motherwell: There was a larger number previously.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Is it the policy of the department to cut down this issue?


William Richard Motherwell: We do not publish anything ourselves, as I say; it is the product of the office in Rome. We have not sent any representatives to the annual gathering these last two years, but when we do go there, if we think they are sending out too many copies, we can make representations to that effect. It has been considerably reduced.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Do I understand that the central office at Rome sends out these bulletins at the pleasure of the department and as many copies as the department wishes, and charges them to the department?


William Richard Motherwell: An allocation is
made to the sixty odd countries associated in proportion to the grant made, and the amount has been reduced of recent years to our requirement.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.	.
Progress reported.

William Lyon Mackenzie King: I promised the leader of
the opposition (Mr. Meighen) that I would lay on the table of the House, before adjournment to-night, the correspondence which he requested last night and of which he spoke at three o'clock this afternoon. I have here a copy of all correspondence, relating to the issue of a license to the Bridge River Power Company, Limited, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1925. This correspondence was asked for by the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens). I came back to the House to-night ready to put on the table all the correspondence on the matter, and I have been trying to get in touch with my colleagues, the Minister of Railways (Mr. Graham) and the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Low), who have further correspondence in relation to it, but unfortunately I have not been able to get in touch with them in the last few minutes. I will undertake to see that the correspondence is tabled the first thing on Monday and that we do not go on with the discussion of this matter until there has been ample opportunity for hon. gentlemen to read it.


Henry Herbert Stevens: That will be satisfactory.
On motion of Mr. Mackenzie King the House adjourned at 11.20 p.m.

Deceased Member-Mr. Thompson
Monday, May 18, 1925