1924-05-19

RESIGNATION OF MR. WALTER G. MITCHELL

Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: I see by the press that
Mr. Walter Mitchell is desirous of having his letter to me regarded as a public one. While I do not know that it is customary to place on the Table correspondence respecting the resignations of private members, nevertheless I feel that hon. members of the House might wish to see a copy of Mr. Mitchell's letter and my reply thereto. I therefore beg to lay these letters on the Table of the House.


Right Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN (Leader of the Opposition):: In view of the fact that
the resignation is plainly designed to test public opinion on the question of the budget, can the Prime Minister make any statement as to the probable date of the by-election in Mr. Mitchell's constituency.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The government has not yet decided on the date, but as soon as a decision is reached public announcement will be made.



UNITED CHURCH OF CANADA

Mr. L. H. MARTELL (Hants):: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the following petitions asking for the passage of the bill to incorporate the United Church of Canada:
Neil McAllister and 240 others, of the Presbyterian Church at Paisley, Ontario; J. W. Lotten and 98 others, of the Methodist Church, Tottenham; S. J. Baker and 51 others of Bishop's Mills, Ontario; Bessie Carson and 238 others, of the Methodist Church, at Moncton, N.B.; Mrs. Alex. McKay and 34 others, of the Presbyterian Church, Dorset; Isabel! Fallows and 105 others, of the Methodist Church at Thamesford, Ontario; H. A.

United Church of Canada

Petitions
Piper and 21 others, of Kensington Presbyterian Church at Montreal, Que.; Alton G. Reade and 15 others, of the Methodist Church, Rockport, N.B.; Jas. M. McCurdy and 61 others, of the Presbyterian Church, New Carlisle; P. W. Fairman and 364 others, of the Methodist Church, Trenton, Ontario; John Hastie and 302 others of St. Paul's Presbyterian Church, Orangetown, Que.; W. F. Kelloway and 24 others, of the Methodist Church, Rawden, Que.; Rev. A. E. Oliver and 29 others, of the Presbyterian Church, Pendleton, Ont.; Mrs. G. W. Hall and 47 others, of the Union Church at Chisholm; Milton L. Hinton and 79 others of the Methodist Church, Hastings, Ont.; Mrs. W. J. Cole and 167 others, of the Methodist Church, Queens-ville; Ernest C. Barker and 30 others, of the Union Church at Kelvington, Saskatchewan; J. W. Chesney and 71 others, of the Methodist Church, Kingston, Ont;; Melvin Halliday and 99 others, of the Congregational Church, Scotland, Ont.; Rev. D. F. W. Forsyth and 28 others of the Methodist Church, Huntingdon.



INDIAN RESERVE LANDS

Mr. ROBERT FORKE (Brandon):: I beg to present the petition of the Nishga nation or tribe of Indians, praying that Bill No. 59, for the settlement of certain questions between the governments of Canada and Ontario respecting Indian reserve of lands be not passed until the issues which have been placed before His Majesty's Privy Council shall have been fully and finally determined, and that the House do all possible to expedite the full and final determination of the said issues and all other fundamental constitutional issues relating to the rights of the Indian tribes of Canada. This is signed by A. E. O'Meara on behalf of the Indians.



EXCHEQUER COURT ACT AMENDMENT

[Stage Direction]
Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 116, to amend the Exchequer Court Act.
He said:	The purpose of this bill is to
widen the jurisdiction of the Exchequer Court to deal with matters which might be submitted to it after an arrangement or agreement between the Crown and other parties.
Arthur Meighen: Does the hon. minister
mean between the Crown and another party to an action in the court?


Mr. LAPOINTE:: The purpose is to widen the jurisdiction of the court, so that the Crown could submit to the Exchequer Court any other question which is not already under
their jurisdiction, provided the other party agrees to it.


Arthur Meighen: Would the other party
require to be a party of the action in the court before he could agree to it?


Ernest Lapointe: Yes.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



EXPROPRIATION ACT AMENDMENT

[Stage Direction]
Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 117, to amend the Expropriation Act.
He said:	The purpose of this amendment
is to enable the government or contractors to carry out blasting operations which may be necessary in connection with the execution of any public work without proceeding to expropriate. At present the Crown must expropriate the whole property, while it may be possible that the damages are not of such a nature as to warrant expropriation. Under this measure we will pay the damages and proceed with the blasting operations.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. A. B. COPP (Secretary of State) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 118, to amend the Companies Act.
He said:	The provisions of this bill are
practically the same as the provisions of the bill which passed this House last session. A number of amendments were put through last session, but the Senate did not pass the bill, and therefore we are presenting it again this year.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 119, respecting the Revised Statutes of Canada.
He said:	This bill is on exactly the same
lines as the bills which have been passed every time the statutes have been revised, for the purpose of defining the powers of the commissioners and to authorize the bringing of the provisions of the . bill into force. It is practically the same as the law of 1919.
Mr. HANSON:: Has the commission been
appointed, and who are the members of it?


Ernest Lapointe: The commission has
been appointed, but I cannot from memory

Questions
!&
give the names of the commissioners. I will give my hon. friend the names later.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk).

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: 1.	How many tons of grain and grain products did the Canadian National System haul in western territory to the head of the lakes' during the calendar year 1923?
2.	In making this haul, what was the resultant total of tons on this traffic carried one mile?
3.	What was the average length of haul of this traffic ?
4.	What additional total gross revenues would have been earned had this traffic been carried under existing rates on similar traffic in the United States?
5.	How many tons of grain and grain products did the Canadian National System haul in western territory to Vancouver in the calendar year 1923?
6.	In making this haul, what was the resultant total of tons of this traffic carried one mile?
7.	What was the average length of haul of this traffic?
8.	What additional total gross revenues would have been earned had this traffic been carried under existing rates on similar traffic in the United States?
9.	What was the total percentage of grain and grain products hauled in western territory to the entire tonnage of that territory in 1923?
10.	What percentage of the entire ton-mileage in the western territory in the year 1923, did the carriage of grain and grain products entail?
11.	What was the percentage of the total revenue earned in western territory in 1923 by the carriage of grain and grain products?
12.	What was the average rate per ton-mile earned by such traffic in said territory and year?


Hon. Mr. GRAHAM:: 1.	Grain only 4,602,847 tons; grain and grain products-the latter estimated, 4,664,71S tons.
2.	Grain only, 4,013,227,697 tons; grain and grain products, 4,067,167,624 tons.
3.	Estimated average haul 860 miles.
4.	Estimated, $13,528,682.
5.	Grain, 258,259 tons; grain and grain products, 216,746 tons.
6.	Grain 233,631,014 tons; grain and grain products, 236,785,494 tons.
7.	Estimated average haul 896 miles.
8.	Estimated $366,444.
9.	Grain, 42.2 per cent; grain and grain products, 44 per cent.
10.	If carried to the head of the lakes and Vancouver, 58.77 per cent.
11.	If carried to the head of the lakes and Vancouver, 41.38 per cent.
12.	Average rate to Fort William 00499 cents; average rate to Vancouver since reduction in rates, October 22, 1923, 00552 cents.
(Mr. Lapointe.]


HOME BANK INQUIRY
Mr. HARRIS:: 1.	TV hat counsel on the Home Bank inquiry are paid by the government?
2.	What fees and expenses are allowed each of the counsel so employed?
3.	What legal firm is Mr. H. J. Symington, one of such counsel, a member of?
4. Has such legal firm acted for the United Grain Grower's Company of which Mr. T. A. Crerar is president ?


Hon. Mr. LAPOINTE:: 1.	Eugene Lafleur, E.C., and H. J. Symington, K.C.
2.	Mr. Lafleur receives $250 per day and his expenses.
Mr. Symington's fees have not been stipulated.
3.	The firm of Hudson, Ormond, Spice A Symington, of Winnipeg.
4.	The government is not informed.


CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY-GRAIN STATISTICS
Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: 1.	How many tons of grain and grain products did the Canadian Pacific Railway haul in western territory to the head of the lakes during the calendar year 1923?
2.	In making this haul, what was the resultant total of tons of this traffic one mile?
3.	What was the average length of haul of this traffic?
4.	What additional total gross revenues would have been earned had this traffic been carried under existing rates on similar traffic in the United States?
5.	How many tons of grain and grain products did the Canadian Pacific Railway haul in western territory to Vancouver in the year 1923?
6.	In making this haul, what was the resultant total of tons of this traffic carried one mile?
7.	What was the average length of haul of this traffic?
8.	What additional total gross revenues would have been earned had this traffic been carried under existing rates on similar traffic in the United States?
9.	What was the total percentage of grain and grain products hauled in western territory to the entire tonnage of that territory in 1923?
10.	What percentage of the entire ton-mileage in the western territory in the year 1923, did the carriage of grain and grain products entail?
11.	What was the percentage of the total revenue earned in western territory in 1923 by the carriage of grain and grain products?
12.	What was the average rate per ton-mile earned by such traffic in *said territory and year?


Hon. Mr. GRAHAM:: 1.	5,874,406.
2.	4,798,857,468.
3.	817 miles.
4.	$18,798,099.20.
5.	625,524.
6.	487,024,358.
7.	721 miles.
8. SI,148,390.80.	"
9.	54.9 per cent.
10.	65.1 per cent.
11.	44.1 per cent.
12.	56/100.

Questions


PICTOU-CHARLOTTETOWN STEAMSHIP SERVICE
Mr. JONES:: 1.	Was a subsidy paid for steamship service between Pictou and Charlottetown during the year 1923?
2.	If so, what was the amount of the subsidy so
paid ?	.
3.	What is the name of the steamer performing
said service and who are the registered owners of this steamer?	_
4.	Was a subsidy paid for a similar service in the
year 1921?	_
5.	If so, what was the amount of the subsidy so paid and with whom was the contract made?


Hon. Mr. LOW:: 1.	Yes.
2.	$7,769.23.
3.	Steamer Magdalen, owned by the Georgetown Steamship Company, of Pictou, Nova Scotia.
4.	Yes.
5.	$2,000. Contract made with the Pictou-Charlottetown Steamship Company, of New Glasgow, Nova Scotia. This service was found to be unsatisfactory.


INCOME TAX
Mr. RINFRET:: 1.	What was the revenue of the government from the income tax, in 1920, 1921, 1922 and 1923, respectively ?
2.	What did it cost the government to collect said revenue during 1920, 1921, 1922 and 1923, respectively?


Hon. Mr. ROBB:: 1.
Fiscal	Business	Income	TotalYear	Profits	Tax	Revenue1919-	20	.. ..	$44,145,184	48 $20,263,739	91	$ 64,408,924	391920-	21	..	40,841.401	25	46,381,824	31	87.223,225	561921-	22	.	22,815,666	58	78,684,354	80	101,500,021	381922-	23. 13,031,461	80	59,711.538	37	72,743,000	172.	Fiscal Year1919-	20	$1,143,111.721920-	21	
1,953,988.541921-	22	
2,277,349.781922-	23	
2,040,461.08
N.B. The cost of administrating the Business Profits War Tax Act, 1916, and the Income War Tax Act, 1917, cannot be separately determined as the. work in connection with the administration of both acts is performed by the same staff.


MATTAWA EXCISE AND CUSTOMS OFFICE
Mr. LAPIERRE:: 1. When was the Excise and Customs office at Mattawa first opened?
2.	Who is the customs officer in charge and what salary does he receive?
3. What has the annual revenue been since its establishment ?
4.	What rental is being paid for the premises occupied by said office?


Hon. Mr. LAPOINTE (for the Minister of Customs and Excise):: 1.	April 1, 1921.
2.	A. M. Saunders-salary $1,440 per annum.
3.	1921-22, $18,278.72; 1922-23, $37,075.67; 1923-24, $53,376.01.
4.	$180 per annum.


Mr. SAYARD:: What amount was collected hy the Department of Customs and Excise at each of the following places: Port Alfred, Jonquiere, and Hebertville Station, during the years 1923 and 1924?


Ernest Lapointe: 1922-23	1923-24
Port Alfred	$28,115.93	$25,004.09Jonquiere	
36,069.90	161,994.35
Hebertville. .Opened July 1, 1923 80,942.62


MOUNTED POLICE-DRUG COMMISSION
Hon. Mr. STEVENS:: the Mounted Police, and if so, what amount, and what amount for expenses?
19.	Has a pardon been granted by the Governor General from a conviction of Eccles, Hernandez and W. L. Smith, of the Moimted Police, in Victoria, and if so, when was it applied for, by whom, and upon whose recommendation was it granted?
20.	When such pardon was granted, was there an appeal pending before the Supreme Court of British Columbia by way of stated case, at the request of the Attorney General of Canada?
21.	Was bail provided for Eccles, Smith and Fer-\ nandez in connection with any prosecutions at Victoria
by the Department of Justice, or was any person directed to provide bail, and if so, who, and under what circumstances or assurances?
22.	Did the Minister of Justice and Prime Minister receive resolutions of protest from Vancouver and Victoria, as to the manner of conducting said Commission of Inquiry by J. P. Smith?
23.	Was Sergeant Jones of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Victoria, who assisted in the arrest of Eccles, Fernandez and Smith, dismissed?
24.	If Sergeant Jones has not been discharged from tile Mounted Police, has he been suspended and has Colonel Wroughton notified Jones that he will not be re-engaged, and if so, for what reason?
25.	How long has Sergeant Jones served in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police force?
26.	What is the record of Sergeant Jones with the force?


Hon. Mr. LAPOINTE:: 
RAILWAY RATES
Hon. Mr. BAXTER:: I.	What were the coal rates applying to the rail movement from Springhill Junction, Nova Scotia, to
To
Montreal, Que	
Mont Joli, Que	
Campbellton, N.B.
Bathurst, N.B	
West St. John, N .B
the following points: Montreal and Mont Joli, Quebec; Campbell, Bathurst and West St. John, New Brunswick (a) in 1897, (b) at the present time?
2.	What were the coal movements ex Prince Edward Island, if any, in the year 1923?
3.	What were the rates on potatoes from New Brunswick shipping points to Quebec and Montreal (a) in 1897; (b) what are they at the present time?
4.	What were the rates on fish dry salted, green salted, pickled or smoked, in car load lots,^ from Port Hawkesbury, N.S., to Montreal, Que., (a) in 1897, (b) and what are they at the present time?
5.	What were the rates on fresh fish, in car load lots, from Port Hawkesbury, Nova Scotia, to Montreal, Quebec (a) in 1897, (b) and what are they at the present time?
6.	What were the rates, in car load lots, on textiles from Truro, Nova Scotia, to Vancouver, British Columbia; from Amherst, N.S., to Montreal, Quebec; from Truro, N.S., to Montreal, Que., (a) in 1897, (b) and what are they at the present time?
7. What were the rates, in car load lots, on iron and steel, on list "A" and on list "B" from Sydney, N.S., to Montreal, Que.. (a) in 1897, (b) and what are they at the present time?


Hon. Mr. GRAHAM:: 1.
Effective
March 1, 1898 SI .79 per net ton 1.79	"
1.56	"
1.56	"
0.89	"	t
(Slack coal f $1.15 per net ton
At the present time 18 cents per 100 lbs.
Ill	"
1*94	"
9	"
74	"
7	"
Supply coal for use of Canada & Gulf Terminal Railway.	,	,	,
fPlus C.P.R. switching charge from St. John of 3$ cents per one hundred pounds. JPlus C.P.R. switching charge of 3 cents per 100 lbs. from St. John.
2. Nil.
3.
4.
Prom
Stations Campbellton to Dalhousie, N.B -	[DOT] [DOT]	[DOT][DOT]
" Eel River to Derby Junction and Millerton, N.B.. " Chatham Junction to St. John and Point du Chene, N.B	
Effective May 3,1898 To
Quebec	Montreal
15	17 cents per 100 lbs.
16 18	"
17 19	"
From
Stations Campbellton to Kent Junction, N.B.[DOT]
" Mortimer to St. John and Pt. du Chene, N .B
" Boundary to McGivney Junction, N.B	
" On St. John and Quebec Railway	
Effective at the present time To
Quebec		Montreal
30	32$	cents per 100 lbs.32$	34	U30	32$	30	32$	t%
Effective December 7,1900, from Mulgrave, N.S.
Effective at the present time from Port Hawkesbury, N.S.
Dry salted.. Green salted
Pickled	
Smoked	
26 cents per 100 lbs.	53 cents per 100 ibs.
26	"	53	"22	"	49	"26	"	564
It is understood that prior to the erection of cold storage plant at Port Hawkesbury within the past few years, the fish was shipped from Mulgrave, N.S.
'V- Lapointe.]
Questions

5.
'Effective December 7, 1900, from Mulgrave, N.S.
28 cents per 100 lbs.
Effective at the present time from Port Hawkesbury, N.S.
56J cents per 100 lbs.
Ji'f understood that prior to the erection of cold storage plant at Port Hawkesbury within the past few years the fish was shipped from Mulgrave, N.S.
6. It is assumed cotton piece goods are referred to.
Truro, N.S. to Vancouver, B.C
Effective	Effective
In 1897	At the present time
Old tariff records $2.99-1 per 100 lbs. are not now available.
7.
Truro and Amherst, N.S. to Montreal, Que
Effective August 1, 1902 Only one list
17| cents per 100 lbs	
The management state that the tariff records covering the rates which were in effect in 1897 are so incomplete it is practically impossible to determine just what rates were in effect at that time, however; the replies which are given above, with the effective dates as shown, are as far back as can be checked at the present time.
ST. JOHN AND QUEBEC RAILWAY Sir HENRY DRAYTON:
1.	In discharge of the contract to pay 40 per cent of the gross traffic receipts earned on the St. John and Quebec Railways, how much money did the Canadian National system pay the province in respect of the operations of the year 1923?
2. How much did the said sum so paid fall short of discharging the obligations of the province as the owner of the 6aid railways?
3. What sum did the 60 per cent retained by the Canadian National Railways amount to in the year 1923?
4.	By what amount did the said 60 per cent of receipts fail to meet the operating expenses on the St. John and Quebec Railways in the year 1923?
5.	What is the resultant operating ratio of the year's operations based upon the retention of but 60 per cent of the receipts?


Hon. Mr. GRAHAM:: 1.	$109,199.75.
2.	No information on this question.
3.	$163,799.64.
4.	$340,455.81.
5.	307.80 per cent.
DIRECTORS ON STEAMSHIP COMPANIES Mr. ROSS (Kingston):
1.	Are Canadian citizens permitted to be elected to directorships on steamship companies of United States?
2.	Are citizens of United States permitted to be directors on Canadian steamship companies?

Effective May 23, 1S98 31 cents
Effective
At the present time 65 cents per 100 lbs.
Effective at the present time List A	List B
	 40 cents	52 cents
per 100 lbs.
3.	What citizens of United States hold position of directors on Canadian steamship companies, and in what companies?


Hon. Mr. COPP:: 1.	This is a matter of United States law upon which there, is no information at hand.
2.	Yes. The persons who are qualified to be owners of British ships are set out in section 1 of the Imperial Merchant Shipping Act, 1894. This section includes among those qualified to be owners, "Bodies corporate established and subject to the laws of some part of Her Majesty's Dominions and having their principal place of business in those Dominions." This section applies to Canada. The provisions of this section were, modified by The British Ships (Transfer restriction) Acts of 1915 and 1916, which are still in effect in the United Kingdom, but do not apply to Canada. The parliament of Canada, by Chapter 42 of the Statutes of 1919, enacted similar legislation but this act was in operation only for three years and expired in July 1922.
3.	No information.
FRUIT DIVISION TELEGRAPHIC REPORTS *Mr. MERCIER:
L Is it the intention of the government to publish in French, telegraphic reports received by the Fruit division of the Department of Agriculture, and to send that French version to those interested?
2.	If so, with what delay?


Hon. Mr. MOTHERWELL:: 1.	Yes.
2.	With no unnecessary delay.

Questions


OLYMPIC GAMES, 1924
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	What grant has been made towards Canada's entries for the Olympic Games, 1924?
2.	What entries has Canada made so far, and how are the Canadian teams or contestants chosen or selected? What teams or contestants are yet to go?
3.	When was the grant paid over and to what organization ?
4.	How much has been spent to date, and what remains, if any? [DOT]
5.	Is it the intention of the government to make up any deficit or grant a supplementary appropriation to take care of the rowing, track, canoe and other teams not yet gone over to the games?


Hon. Mr. ROBB:: 1.	$15,000.
2.	No information.
3.	Payment was made on December 21, 1923, to the Canadian Olympic committee.
4.	No information. As in the past, the amount was voted as a grant and not as an accountable expenditure of the government.
5.	The amount which has been voted and paid represents the government's contribution towards the expenses of the Canadian athletes at the Olympic Games in 1924.


PROPOSED TORONTO RAILWAY VIADUCT
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Has a report been received by the government from Sir Henry Thomton strongly recommending the carrying out of the contract for the construction of a railway viaduct at Toronto and asking for an immediate decision by the government and for funds and for power to immediately proceed with the work?
2.	What is the exact terms of the recommendation in question?
3.	What action has been taken or will be taken by the government ?
4.	Will a copy of the reply of the government be laid on the Table of the House, and when?


Hon. Mr. GRAHAM:: A letter has been
received and I will lay a copy of it on the Table of the House. That will be better than answering this question.


Arthur Meighen: Could the letter not
be handed in with the answer?


George Perry Graham: There is some other correspondence and I have not yet looked into it. In reply to the fourth question, I might say that the matter is under consideration. Let the question stand for the time being and I will look into it.
Question stands.
DALY BUILDING Mr. BALDWIN:
1.	From whom did the government purchase the Da!y building in the city of Ottawa?
2.	When was it purchased?
3.	What was the amount paid therefor?
4.	If purchased from H. J. Daly, is he the H. J. Daly who was president of the Home Bank?


Hon. Mr. KING (Kootenay):: 1.	From the H. J. Daly Company, Limited.
2.	In 1921 under authority of order in council dated August 31, 1921, date of deed of conveyance September 19, 1921.
3.	The price was $1,000,000 payable in ten annual payments of $100,000 each with interest at 6 per cent per annum on deferred payments, with the, right to make all or any of the payments, subsequent to the first payment, before they become due; in which case a corresponding reduction would be made in the amount of the interest. Three payments have been made as follows: 1921-22, $100,000; 1922-23, $154,000; 1923-24, $148,000.
4.	Yes.


QUESTION PASSED AS ORDER FOR RETURN
Hon. Mr. MANION:: 1.	What is the amount that has been received by the Enemy Property Custodian from the nationals of (a) Germany; (b) Austria-Hungary; (c) Other enemy countries either by disposal of property and investments in Canada or in other ways?
2.	What is the amount that has been received from Canadian citizens on account of indebtedness to enemy nationals ?
3.	What is the amount that has been paid out of the fund so established?
4.	To whom have payments been made and what is the amount of each payment?
5.	What is the amount now held under the control of the custodian?


TAX UPON MINERALS
Mr. COOTE moved:: For a copy of all memoranda, legal opinions, letters, reports or other documents, relating to the disallowance of a Statute of the Province of Alberta, being chapter 32 of the statutes enacted in the year 1923, and entitled "An Act to impose a tax upon Minerals."


Ernest Lapointe: These documents have
already been placed on the Table of the House. I do not know whether there is any other correspondence. I have no objection to the motion being passed.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
EGG MARKING ACT	.
Hon. Mr. STEVENS:: For a copy of all reports of inspectors of the Agricultural department residing in British Columbia, to the Minister of Agriculture, or any of his officers in Ottawa, regarding breaches of the regulations of the Egg Marking Act from date of the passing of said Act to May 1st, 1924.


PEIGAN INDIAN RESERVE
George Gibson Coote: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, leases or other documents exchanged between the Government
Lausanne Treaty

or any member thereof, and any other parties in any
way relating to a lease which has recently been given on Peigan Indian Reserves to the Hon. Mr. McLean.


ADMIRALTY ACT AMENDMENT
[Stage Direction]
Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice) moved that the House go into Committee at the next sitting to consider the following proposed resolution:
Resolved that it is expedient to amend the Admiralty Act, chapter one hundred and forty-one of the Revised Statutes, 1906, and to provide:-
1.	That the Governor in Council may appoint one or
more deputy local judges for any Admiralty district, and a deputy registrar for any district or registry division of any district;	,
2.	That when the local judge of the Quebec Admiralty district resides at Montreal, the deputy local judge residing at Quebec shall be paid the salary, if any, which he would have received if he were the local judge of the district; and when the local judge resides at Quebec, the deputy local judge residing at Montreal shall receive the salary, if any, which he would have received if he were the local judge of the district; but not more than one deputy local judge in the district shall receive a salary.
He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable ' consideration of the House.
Motion agreed to.
LAUSANNE TREATY On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. E. J. GARLAND (Bow River):: Is the Prime Minister in a position to lay on the Table of the House the correspondence with regard to the Lausanne Treaty or to make any statement thereon?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: (Prime Minister): It had been my intention to suggest this evening that to-morrow we take up a consideration of the Lausanne matter. I have, however, received within the last few hours, a cable from the British government to which I have replied. Pending further possible word I think it would be well, perhaps, to allow the discussion to stand until Wednesday that I may have the correspondence with the British government complete.


Arthur Meighen: After the correspondence is on the Table in full, it would be unfair to bring the discussion on immediately. Certainly the House would want an opportunity to read the correspondence and to see if some light or clear line of action can be deduced from it. I suggest that unless the correspondence is laid on the Table to-day, it would be unfair to bring the discussion on so soon as Wednesday.
TMr. Coote.]


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I agree with my right hon. friend. I may say that the government has not yet obtained the consent of the British government to lay the correspondence on the Table, but I hope it will foe possible to get that consent, and it is in .that hope that I still am waiting. If this consent is obtained I shall be pleased to allow whatever time hon. members may wish for the purpose of reading the correspondence in the first instance. That, I think, would be the quickest way of disposing of the whole matter.


Arthur Meighen: Has the Prime Minister yet received replies to those telegrams which were despatched some weeks ago to the-other dominions in order to ascertain which was the recalcitrant dominion?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have the
answers here and I may as well take this occasion to read them to the House. On May 6 I sent a message to the Prime Ministers, respectively, of Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Newfoundland; I did not include the Irish Free State as I understood that it had not been organized at the time the Lausanne Conference was being arranged. The message I cabled to Australia was as follows:
Ottawa, May 6, 1924.
Premier Bruce,
Melbourne, Australia.
Canadian government desires to have tabled in Great Britain and Canada correspondence between Canada and Great Britain respecting Lausanne Conference and invitations thereto. Cable despatches state Secretary of State for Colonies says Imperial government does not object but that by agreement at Imperial Conference consent of all dominions should first be obtained. Please advise by cable if government of Australia is agreeable to having tabled such correspondence between Canada and Great Britain as may be agreed upon by British and Canadian governments.
Mackenzie King.
Premier Bruce, of Australia, replied on May 7:
Your telegram dated 6th May Lausanne Conference. Commonwealth government has no objection tabling correspondence .between Canada and Great Britain Have however already advised British government that so far as Australia is concerned prior to making of any statement purporting to summarize the views of the Dominions on this question the desirability that such statement be communicated to us prior to publicity.
A cable, in words identical to that sent Australia, was sent to the other dominions.
On May 12 General Smuts, the Prime Minister of the Union of South Africa, cabled:
Your telegram dated 6th May: I have not seen the correspondence but I raise no objection to publication.
On May 8 the following reply was received from Premier Warren, of Newfoundland:

Supply-Labour
Referring your telegram May 6: Government Newfoundland is agreeable to having tabled such correspondence between Canada and, Great Britain as may be agreed upon by British and Canadian governments respecting Lausanne Conference and invitations thereto.
On May 11 Premier Massey, of New Zealand, replied:
Your telegram sixth Understand communications mentioned were not written with view to publication and if made public am afraid would interfere with clear and frank information being given Dominions to which they are undoubtedly entitled.
I cannot say whether that last message is intended to imply that the correspondence should not be brought down. If it is not so intended, it. would appear that all the dominions were agreeable to having the correspondence tabled. I should observe however that *the Secretary of State for the Colonies in a despatch to me referring to the press despatch which had appeared regarding his answer in the House of Commons, intimated that the despatch which we received from the press here was not wholly in accord with the answer he had made in the House of Commons. I expect to get word to-day some time, or tomorrow, as to whether the British government will be agreeable to the whole of the correspondence being brought down or not.
Mr. ME1GHEN: Will the Prime Minister say what is the significance of the words "such as may be agreed upon between the British government and the Canadian government" appearing at the end of his own message to the dominions and re-echoed in. the reply of at least one, the Prime Minister of Newfoundland? These words imply that all that is suggested by the Prime Minister of Canada is that only such correspondence shall be brought down as shall be later agreed upon between the governments. If so, the agree-.ment to bring down correspondence amounts to nothing.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The purport of these words is that our government would like to have all the correspondence brought down. The British government, however, may object to all of it being brought down, and in that event we should like to have submitted as much as they will agree to. That is the significance of the sentence.


ANNUAL RAILWAY STATEMENT
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Arthur Meighen: Will the Minister of Railways intimate when he expects to make his annual railway statement?
Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways):	I cannot to-day fix any date
positively but I hope it will be very soon.


Arthur Meighen: This week?


George Perry Graham: Hardly this week.


CIVIL SERVICE SUPERANNUATION
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. C. A. GAUVREAU (Temiscouata):: In view of the fact that the civil servants are anxious to know what are the provisions of the superannuation bill in order that they may compare the bill with the Calder Act, I should be glad if the Acting Minister of Finance could inform the House just when he proposes to bring the bill down.


Hon. J. A. ROBB (Acting Minister of Finance):: I hope we shall be able to proceed with the resolution to-morrow.


CRIMINAL CODE AMENDMENT-HALF-BREED SCRIP
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. D. M. KENNEDY (West Edmonton):: Will the Prime Minister promise that an opportunity will be given- at an early date for the third reading of Bill No. 5 standing in my name under "Public Bills and Orders?"


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I move, Mr. Speaker, that the House proceed to Public Bills and Orders so that the third reading of Bill No. 5 may be taken up.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
On motion of Mr. D. M. Kennedy (West Edmonton), Bill No. 5, to amend the Criminal Code was read the third time and passed.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: I move, Mr. Speaker, that the House return to Orders of the Day.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
The House in committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
Labour-Conciliation and Labour Act, including publication, printing, binding and distribution of Labour Gazette, and allowance to correspondents, $46,000.
Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: Will the minister inform the committee how much was spent last year? The public accounts have been closed for some time.
Supply-Labour


Hon. JAMES MURDOCK (Minister of Labour):: There was spent $49,966.68.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What changes
have been made?


James Murdock: We hope to be able to
save about $4,000 by having the Labour Gazette printed in the Printing Bureau.


Mr. HOCKEN:: What is the cost of the
Labour Gazette now?


James Murdock: The December issue,
113 pages, 12,725 copies, cost $2,405.63; the January issue, 89 pages, 12,737 copies, cost $1,687.70; the February issue, 120 pages, 12,930 copies, cost $2,177.96; the March issue, 69 pages, 12,655 copies, cost $1,274.86. Smaller type was used for this number.


Richard Burpee Hanson: How many correspondents are there for the Labour Gazette; where are they situated; how are they appointed; and what is their pay?


James Murdock: The Labour Gazette has sixty-two correspondents.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I did not think they were quite so numerous. Flow are they paid?


James Murdock: Of these sixtj'-two correspondents five are in Alberta, six in British Columbia, two in Manitoba, four in New Brunswick, five in Nova Scotia, twenty-five in Ontario, nine in Quebec and one in Prince Edward Island.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Who are the correspondents in New Brunswick, and what are they paid?


James Murdock: Fredericton, C. W..
Clark, salary $125 per annum; Bathurst, M. H. Levasseur, salary $125 per annum; Moncton, J. C. Graves, salary $150 per annum; St. John, W. H. Coates, salary $225 per annum.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: In addition to the printing cost what is the total cost of producing the Labour Gazette, including correspondents and other incidental expenses?


James Murdock: The sixty-two correspondents cost $9,999.84.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: And the editors and office staff?


James Murdock: An editor, grade 1, $1,800; an assistant editor, $1,680, rising to $1,710; a senior clerk-stenographer, $1,320,- or a total of $4,800.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: That is the entire staff?


James Murdock: Yes, chargeable to the
Labour Gazette. There would also be possibly the circulation manager and other staff, 
and the assistant deputy minister, some of whose time might be chargeable to this work.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: I suppose there are no
overhead charges. But why should there be a circulation manager for a publication of this kind?


James Murdock: Only a small portion of his duties deal with the circulation management of the Labour Gazette. He is an expert on labour organizations and keeps in close touch with them all. As a matter of fact, a very small portion of his work has to do with the circulation of the Labour Gazette.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: I would think so.


Mr. MANION:: What is the name of the correspondent of the Labour Gazette at the head of the lakes, and what is his salary?


James Murdock: I have the whole list here.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Let us have it.


James Murdock: The list is as follows:
Labour Gazette Correspondents, April, 1924
Annual Salary
Amherst, N.S., McCleave, H	 $150
Bathurst, N.B., Levasseur, M. H	 125
Belleville, Ont., Harrison, P	 150
Brandon, Man., Fulcher, E	 150
Brantford, Ont., Dunn, E	 200
Brockville, Ont., Wotherspoon, J. E	 150
Calgary, Alta., Stauffer, J. B	 200
Charlottetown, P.E.I., Monoghan, J. H	 125
Chatham, Ont., Wands, G	 150
Cobalt, Ont., Dixon, G. W	 200
Dominion, C.B., N.S. (Sydney), Moffatt, J.. ..	175
Drumheller, Alta.,- Colquhoun, A. A	 175
Edmonton, Alta,, McCreath, R	 200
Fernie, B.C., Perry, F. G	 200
Fort William, Ont. (and Port Arthur), Grant,
A. E	 120
Fredericton, N.B., Clark, C. W	 125
Galt, Ont., Fraser, D	 150
Guelph, Ont., Drever, W	 150
Halifax, N.S., Garnett, J. A	 225
Hamilton, Ont., Aitchison, C. 1	 225	*
Hull, Que., Morin, A	 150
Kingston, Ont., Stroud, W. A	 200
Kitchener, Ont., Welheiser,	S	
150Lethbridge, Alta., Hawkins,	W	
150London, Ont., Woonton, A	
200Medicine Hat,	Alta.,	Bellamy, B.	W	
150Moncton. N. B., Graves, J. C	
150Montreal, Que., Bertrand, T	No payMoose Jaw, Sask., Baker, A	
150Nanaimo, B.C., McGirr, W	
125New Glasgow,	Ward,	R. H	
200Niagara Falls.	Ont.,	Hyatt, Miss	L	
175Orillia, Ont., Hale, H	
125Oshawa, Ont., Bone, W. J	
150Owen Sound, Ont., Shaw, J	
125Peterborough, Ont., Sharp, J. A	
150Prince Albert, Sask., Laurie, R. P	
200Prince Rupert, B.C., Campbell, J. M	
250Quebec, Que., Jobin, P. J	
200Regina, Sask., McNeil, W. B	
200Sarnia, Ont., Lott, W. H	
150Saskatoon, Sask., McGrath.	M. J	
200
Supply-Labour
Annual Salary
Sault Ste. Marie, Ont., Hollingsworth, E		$150
Sherbrooke, Que., Fales, J	 125
Sorel, Que., Vanasse, A. P	 125
Stratford, Ont., Carlin, J	 150
St. Catharines, Ont., Sinclair, J. A	 200
St. Hyacinthe, Que., Belisle, J. B	 150
St. John,. N.B., Coates, W. H	 225
St. Johns, .Que., Bourdeau, M	 175
St. Thomas, Ont., Killingsworth, J. A	 225
Thetford Mines, Que., Adams, C	 150
Three Rivers, Que., Ryan, J. J	 125
Timmins, Ont., Garner, H. C	 200
Toronto, Ont., Compton, E. N	No pay
Trail, B.C., Williamson, A. C	 300
Truro, N.S., Henderson, F. W	 125
Vancouver, B.C., Harrison, F. E	No pay
Victoria, B.C., Chrow, J	 225
Windsor, Ont., Cole, W. H	 150
Winnipeg. Man., Howard, L. F	No pay
Woodstock, Ont., Markey, J	 150
Those indicated as receiving no pay are fair wage or employment service officers under monthly salary.


Robert James Manion: Why the difference in
salaries? One would imagine they would be the same.


James Murdock: The salaries in the past have been set, usually on the basis of the importance of the industrial centre that it was proposed to get information from. Usually the correspondent was started at a lower rate and as the work increased, if it did increase, salary increases were at times given. Where there is r,o ground for complaint the officer is left at the salary as originally established.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What are the duties of the correspondents?


James Murdock: Correspondents of the
Labour Gazette are expected to keep the department in touch with all matters of importance relating to labour and industry in their several districts aDd especially to keep the department informed of any developments with regard to the following subjects: Retail prices; strikes and lockouts; changes in wages and hours of labour; industrial agreements and schedules of wages; labour organizations; organization in industry; industrial accidents; employee representation plans; profit sharing; sale of stock to employees, and so on; company stores; housing; any other matters of industrial interest; correspondents in mining districts are expected to forward to the department monthly reports of the mineral production of their locality, showing as far as possible quantity of ore of the various kinds mined and shipped.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I was wondering whether among their other duties they were expected to report on the closing of industrial activities and the reason therefor?


James Murdock: It is important that they should let us know what the conditions are in that respect.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I noticed that
that was not in the list. Would it be added, or is it added?


James Murdock: I presume the correspondent would let us have that information under the heading "changes in wages and hours of labour," or "any other matters of industrial interest."


Henry Lumley Drayton: As a matter of fact, do they so report?


James Murdock: Yes, from time to time we hear from correspondents as to the conditions respecting employment.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That is not an answer to my question? Do these correspondents report to the department on the shutting down of places of business, mills, factories or anything else, and if so, under what head?


James Murdock: That particular function would come more properly under the duties of the Employment Service of Canada. We receive from the officers of that service every week, for every town in 78 centres throughout the Dominion, a statement indicating the conditions as to employment.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That would be as to the number of people employed. I take it from the minister's answer that the matter does not properly come under this head. Am I right in assuming that?


James Murdock: It has not been regarded as a specific duty of the Labour Gazette correspondent to report as to factories closing down, but we receive reasonably accurate data as to that condition.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Apropos of what the minister has just said, has he received notice that four cotton mills in New Brunswick have in the last week been put upon three days' time?


James Murdock: I understand that the
only definite information we have got in that respect is from news clippings that have come to us.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That will undoubtedly be cheaper and more accurate than the other information that the minister has. Under what vote will this question as to reports of closing factories come?


James Murdock: I presume the hon. gentleman can take it up at any time. We might deal with it under the vote for the co-ordination of employment offices.

Supply-Labour


Henry Lumley Drayton: If the minister says it should come up then, we will wait till then.


James Murdock: I think that would be
ippropriate.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Perhaps the
minister would also tell us, so that we can have segregated for general information, the main items making up this vote.


James Murdock: The printing of the Labour Gazette is the most important item. Last year that cost $35,097.36. Other items are
as follows:
Correspondents' Salaries	$9,999	84Travelling Expenses	
256	40Rental Surveys	
735	90Retail Prices' Reports	
150	00Wages Report'	
5	00Expressage	
45Services Securing Reasons	for judgments.. ..	42	75Newspapers and Periodicals	
2,066	75Mailing lists, indices, wrappers, index cards, binding, etc	
1,623	13


Mr. LEWIS:: Why is this vote called the
Conciliation and Labour Act vote? It simply includes the publication, printing, binding and distribution of the Labour Gazette, and allowances to correspondents, does it not?


James Murdock: My hon. friend will
note by looking at the Conciliation and Labour Act, which gave life in the first place to the Labour department of the Federal government, that it provided for the printing of the Labour Gazette, and so forth, and that is the reason why this vote has come to be known as the Conciliation and Labour Act vote.


Arthur John Lewis: It does not include provision
for conciliation boards?


James Murdock: No, that comes under
the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act vote.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: The minister has told us
that by the use of smaller type the volume of the Labour Gazette has been reduced to about 69 pages.


James Murdock: I did not mean to imply that. We are making a very determined effort to reduce the number of pages in the Labour Gazette, and have made some headway in that respect. By doing that and using smaller type, last month we were able to reduce the Labour Gazette to 69 pages, the smallest for a long while.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: Does the minister expect that the information contained in the Labour Gazette will be provided in the same number of pages right along in the future?


James Murdock: We think that the essential information can be given in possibly a

smaller-paged Labour Gazette than we have had many times in the past. That is the aim, to give all the essential and necessary information as concisely as possible.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: Is not that one means bj which a substantial economy could be effectec in the production of the Gazette, by the use ol smaller type? There has to be about the same circulation, I presume, but if the book were kept down to between sixty and seventy pages, instead of one hundred and twenty, the mechanical cost would be pretty nearly one-half what it has been. Would the minister tell us that there is an idea of practising economy in that direction? I presume that the Gazette is now set in nine-point type?


James Murdock: Yes.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: Why not set it in sevenpoint? That would make a very substantial reduction in the volume of the work, and still be good clear type.


James Murdock: I am not an expert on that, but the matter has been discussed at considerable length, and it is thought that the nine-point type is about as small as we could properly make it. That is the size used in the printing of Hansard, and we were governed by that to some extent.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: I do not quite agree with those experts who have been advising the minister. Nearly every daily newspaper printed in this country is printed in seven-point type, which is plenty large enough for people to read by artificial light. I should think that-size type ought to be sufficient for those who read the Labour Gazette. It would reduce the size of the volume very much and effect economy without-and	I would
emphasize this point-lessening the efficiency of the book.


James Murdock: I would be very glad to bring the views of my hon. friend (Mr. Hocken), who I know is a great expert on these matters, to the attention of the officers of the department, and take this matter up further.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: I would like the minister to use his own eyes and his own judgment.


James Murdock: In the final analysis I shall do that, of course. But I do not like to go altogether against the recommendations made to me by the officers of the department and they have intimated that when we get down to the size of type used in Hansard, that ought to be sufficient. I did not like to say to them: No you shall use something smaller than that. But as I say, I shall be very glad to take the matter up again.

Supply-1Labour


Horatio Clarence Hocken: You see, I am thinking of economy, Mr. Chairman.


James Murdock: So is the minister, I can assure you.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Can the minister tell us what the circulation of the Gazette is? Are we getting it distributed at useful points, or is it just going to waste-paper baskets?	.


James Murdock: The circulation runs between 12,000 and 13,000 a month. Libraries
in all the provinces get 91 copies.


Henry Lumley Drayton: How many copies go to the libraries?


James Murdock: The complimentary list
is as follows:
Libraries in Canada	 01
Foreign bundles	 70
Newspaper exchanges	 144
Canadian trade journals	 55
Exchange lists, foreign	 7
Exchange lists, United States	 10
Trades union journals	 98
Labour papers	 42
United States, misc	 73
Libraries in United States		59
Great Britain	 55
Boards of Trade	 52
Provincial Government	 25
City Officials	 165
Miscellaneous	 288
French Copies	 195
Local unions	 4,454
The paid subscriptions are as follows:
Nova Scotia	 461
Prince Edward Island	 34
New Brunswick	 409
Quebec	 2,308
Ontario	 2,457
Manitoba	   432
Saskatchewan	 464
Alberta	 589
British Columbia	 450
Foreign	 192
Total	 7,796


Richard Burpee Hanson: How many paid subscriptions out of 12,000?


James Murdock: For the English edition, 6,654, and for the French edition, 1,142, or a total of 7,796, and that is in all the various provinces.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What do they
pay?


James Murdock: Only 20 cents.


Henry Lumley Drayton: A year?


James Murdock: Yes. That is the price which was established some years ago which, for various reasons, no one has ever thought it advisable to change. They wanted to get the information into the hands of persons
144i
who possibly should have the information. As a matter of fact the Labour Gazette costs about 30 cents a copy to print, and 20 cents hardly pays for the bookkeeping.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: "A guarantee of good
faith."


James Murdock: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the minister's view on that subject?


James Murdock: I have held that we
ought to make the subscription about 50 cents a year, and I have been talking for some time about fixing that price.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is there any advertising
matter in it?


James Murdock: No.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: Is the book set up by
monotype or linotype?


James Murdock: Monotype and linotype, in the bureau, now. I think it was all linotype when it was done outside.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: The minister will find
linotype composition about 40 per cent cheaper than monotype, and it has been good enough in the past.


James Murdock: We have both monotype and linotype in the bureau now, and I shall certainly bring to the attention of the bureau officials the suggestion made by the hon. member. Of course I may be mistaken as to just how it is set up, whether monotype or linotype.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: The minister will inquire
as to the difference in the cost between the two?


James Murdock: I shall be glad to do
that.


Arthur John Lewis: I would like the minister to consider the question of economy of eyesight when he is dealing with this matter.


James Murdock: In What way? Does
the hon. member suggest that we should not make the type smaller?


Arthur John Lewis: In considering the value of
the type, also consider people's eyesight.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Industrial Disputes Investigation Act, $35,060.
Horatio Clarence Hocken: What was spent last year on this item?


James Murdock: The amount last year
was S25,375.12.
Supply-Labour


Horatio Clarence Hocken: Would that not be enough this year?


James Murdock: I am afraid not, for
this reason. The year before last we had to come to parliament for a supplementary vote of $4,000. In other words, we ran $39,000 for that year, while this year has been exceptional. We have only thirteen boards sitting this year, the second lowest number for any year since 1907; and therefore the cost has been exceptionally low. We had no board that cost us a great amount of money. The chief expense was in regard to the controversy we had up in Toronto.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: Does the minister think
that with fewer strikes a conciliation board is necessary?


James Murdock: My hope is that we
will be able to get along next year with even less than $25,000; but I feel that, as this item of $35,000 has run along for a number of years, and sometimes is up a little and sometimes down a little, possibly the safest way is to leave it at that amount, because no hon. member in this House can say what is going to be the conditions for the next six months.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: It would help the minister to make a good showing.


Mr. WOODSWORTH:: Can the minister
tell us as to the cost of the commission which investigated the steel workers' dispute this year? I think this does not come under this department, but it is part of the industrial conciliation idea.


James Murdock: I think that was laid
*on the Table of the House in response to an order. I am not quite sure of the figures, but my recollection is that the amount was $20,000. If this report is not already on the Table, it will be tabled.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Can the minister
tell us the cost of the troops which were despatched to Nova Scotia this last year?


James Murdock: No, I have not that
information.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Can the minister give
an opinion as to the advisability of sending any troops there?


James Shaver Woodsworth: These are items
which very closely affect this matter. The purpose of the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act is to prevent industrial trouble. Apparently it has not been successful in a number of instances, and we have other large items coming before the House, expenditures 
such as that of the special commission in the Nova Scotia Steel strike, and sending troops down there. I think it is fair to ask whether any action has been taken by the government to prevent these troubles.


James Murdock: I do not know of any
action that could have been taken by this government to prevent the troubles which caused the riots in Nova Scotia which resulted in the calling out of the troops.


James Shaver Woodsworth: May I ask whether the recommendations which were made by the previous Industrial Board with regard to the situation in Nova Scotia, and the recommendations made by the recent commission, have been considered and acted upon by this government?


James Murdock: The recommendations
and reports of the board have certainly all been considered, and, in so far as this government has any legal authority or right they have been acted upon.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Could we have a
little expansion of that statement.


James Murdock: In a nutshell it is
this: As I have intimated to my hon. friend before-although I know that he would wish that it was not necessary to agree with me- we have no authority to do the things that my hon. friend would like done, and that I also would like to have done.


James Shaver Woodsworth: What things?


James Murdock: The things that are
necessary to deal with some of the conditions and some of the reports that my hon. friend refers to. Under the British North America Act, as I have said before, and as my hon. friend possibly knows better than I do, the provinces have exclusive jurisdiction over property and civil rights; and therefore in regard to very many of these questions that my hon. friend naturally brings before parliament and the federal Labour department, and asks to have them dealt with, or asks, "What are you doing about it?"-we have not any authority to act except by conciliation, or by an indication of our readiness to do anything we have authority to do, or that we are capable of doing. We have no authority to do anything different to change some of the conditions to which my hon. friend objects. That is the exact position in which we have been as regards some of the conditions my hon. friend speaks of in the coal mining industry.

Supply-Labour


James Shaver Woodsworth: Do I understand
that the minister takes absolutely the ground that there is no possible way in which this federal government can ensure to the steel workers of Nova Scotia a shorter time than the twelve-hour day as they have it at the present time?


James Murdock: So far as I know, under the authority that is vested in this federal government or in the Labour department, there is no way to change that condition. I should be glad if my hon. friend, feeling that that is a mistake, would advise how it can be done and give us what we should have done under the circumstances, chapter and verse, so that we would know how to proceed.
I would then assure him that the Labour department would move in the direction indicated by him if there was not a blind end to the lane he starts us down.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I will tell the minister
how to go about the matter. He might just take the matter up with his friends in the Nova Scotia government. They have authority to change conditions down in Sydney. Has the minister made any representations to the Nova Scotia government in regard to the matter? While he is thinking that over, I should like to ask him this further question:	What steps, if any, did he or the officers of his department take to bring about any change in conditions down there, and what, if anything, did they do to settle the difficulties in Nova Scotia before the troops were sent there?


James Murdock: In 1923, the steel workers asked for a board of investigation. We did the best that the Labour department could do to get that board of investigation for them, but it was impossible to do so.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Why?


James Murdock: In the first place the
dispute was in a private industrial concern over which it has never been held that the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act has jurisdiction.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is to say, the company did not yield to the representations.


James Murdock: Although section 63 of
the act gives permission, of course, to the minister to establish a board where the two parties agree to have a board, in this case the steel workers made an application for a board; we tried to get the agreement of the company to establish a board, but they declined. That made a situation where we seemed to be powerless to do anything further. There was no law or authority under which we could act further. We went along until June when the steel workers made other requests and finally went on strike, later getting the mine workers with them, and with the result, still later, that the troops were called out. At every stage where there seemed reasonable opportunity for us to do or to offer to do anything, we did what appeared possible, but my hon. friend will realize how .powerless is any one who has not authority, to do something. All he can do is to offer his friendly offices or the friendly offices of his department, and this was done in every case as opportunity presented itself.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The minister has overlooked my first question. What representations, if any, has the minister or the department made to his friends in the Nova Scotia government with regard to working conditions at Sydney?


James Murdock: Officially, I do not know that we have undertaken to say to our friends, the Ontario government or any other government in any province: You are, in our judgment, maintaining conditions of employment that are not fair and equitable. As opportunity is presented we have taken up matters with all the provinces.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Never mind the others
what about this one?


James Murdock: We have done exactly
the same with Nova Scotia as with the rest?


Richard Burpee Hanson: What representations were made to the Nova Scotia government?


James Murdock: I would have to get a
good deal of correspondence in order to give in detail just what has been done. What has been done with Ontario, Quebec and the other provinces has been done with Nova Scotia.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I take it from
that, that nothing has been done with Nova Scotia as regards the steel industry, because my hon. friend would not have to write to Ontario regarding the trouble in the steel industry in Nova Scotia. If all he has done in Nova Scotia is what he has done in Ontario, then he has done nothing in connection with thi3 steel industry. Surely, my hon. friend must see that that is the fact.


James Murdock: The hon. member for
West York (Sir Henry Drayton) is getting a little ahead of me. As each one of those cases developed, there was certain correspondence by letter or by telegram, between the representatives of the two governments, and

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we both wrote and telegraphed, in nearly all of these cases, extending our friendly offices to do anything that appeared to be helpful.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That is not the question.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What, if anything, did
the government represent to the Nova Scotia government, or did it content itself with offering its friendly offices?	-


James Murdock: A good deal more than that has been done. For example, the recent strike in Nova Scotia was settled, it is said, as a result of officers of the Labour department insisting that the representatives of the company and the workers should not get away from one another in Montreal; that they should not break up and adjourn as they had proposed to do on a certain Friday night. The insistence of the representatives of the Labour department kept them together for three or four days longer, with the result that a settlement was reached. The settlement was later repudiated by the men directly concerned, that is the miners, but the facts are that operation has been going on uninterruptedly under an agreement that was pressed for earnestly by the Labour department.


Arthur John Lewis: Has the government any
power to refuse to send troops into this area if requested to do so by the provincial authorities?


James Murdock: My understanding is
that, under the present terms of the Militia Act, the government' has no authority to refuse to send troops when called upon to do so. In answer to the hon. member for Centre Winnipeg (Mr. Woodsworth), who, I think, asked that before, I believe I can say that before this session of parliament is over, the House will have an opportunity of considering proposed amendments to the Militia Act dealing with that question.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is it not true that in the by-elections of Cape Breton, the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Macdonald) pledged himself to introduce amendments to the Militia Act in that respect?


James Murdock: I do not know. If he
did, I have just said that I think he is going to make good on his pledge.


Arthur John Lewis: Who will be the authority
to decide as regards the calling out of troops if trouble occurs in a certain place?
[Mr. Murdock.)


James Murdock: I could not say. I
presume that will be in the amending bill when it comes before the House.


Arthur John Lewis: Is it possible for the Minister of Labour to protest against the sending in of troops to those industrial areas? Would his protest have any effect?


Henry Lumley Drayton: That might depend upon how he did that or who he was.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Has the Minister
of Labour notified the International Labour Conference that Canada that signed the peace treaty granting the eight-hour day, finds herself quite incompetent to carry out that clause of the treaty?


James Murdock: On several occasions we have laid before the International Labour Conference the conditions existing, and the Director and all other officers of the International Labour Conference know quite well that the question is one with which the federal government cannot deal except in so far as it may be authorized by the various provincial governments.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Has the minister ever requested the provincial governments to put these recommendations into effect?


James Murdock: On several occasions,
and he will continue to do the same.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What has been the result?


James Murdock: The provincial governments have the various questions under consideration. Some of them have made headway with a few of the questions that have come from the International Labour Conference.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I presume that the Dominion government's own employees come under federal jurisdiction, whatever may be true of Nova Scotia. I am informed that the stationary engineers and the firemen who look after government furnaces are on duty Saturday and Sunday, on Good Friday, on Christmas and Labour Day and on every holy day and every holiday; so too are the watchmen, who work twelve hours a day and seven days a week. Is the Labour department taking any steps to see whether the eight-hour day and the six-day week are being observed in regard to these employees of the Dominion government?


James Murdock: These are matters in
regard to which this parliament has given complete jurisdiction to the Civil Service Commission, so that any representations that

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might be made concerning hours of labour, holidays and so forth would have to be considered by the commission. I hope there is no doubt as to where the Labour department or its minister would stand on that question, but as I say the Civil Service Commission has entire jurisdiction.


Mr. MICHAUD:: Since when?


James Murdock: My understanding is,
since the act of 1919 was passed. Let me inform my hon. friend opposite that a recommendation was made by a subcommittee of council some weeks ago to the commission to the effect that these questions should be taken up and dealt with, and I understand that meetings are now being held in regard thereto.


James Shaver Woodsworth: At the Peace Conference there was a sort of charter of labour drawn up and a large number of nations pledged themselves to see to it that labour should be given an eight-hour day. I notice by literature that comes to us from various European countries that many of these countries are placing legislation on their statute books to give effect to this convention. Now, we are in competition with these other countries and it seems we are claiming exemption. We have been told by the Minister of Labour that Canada has absolutely no jurisdiction in this matter. We have been further told recently that even the Canadian parliament has no jurisdiction over its own employees.


James Murdock: I wish to correct that statement lest it go out. I did not say that Canada has no jurisdiction in the matter; or if I did say that, then it is unfortunate. At any rate, what I say now, and what I intended to say, was that Canada has no jurisdiction other than that which is given to the federal government by the British North America Act. The provinces have jurisdiction in this particular matter, and when they accept the eight-hour day proposal and so notify the federal authorities, the federal authorities will be glad to pass it on to the International Labour Conference.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I think that is the sense in which I used the term when I said that Canada had no jurisdiction: the federal parliament is incompetent to act except as explained by the minister. We are further told even that we as a parliament have no jurisdiction over our own employees. It seems to me that this is not playing the game fairly; it is not taking the matter seriously. If we have no power in relation to
our own employees, then I think that at this very session of parliament the government should introduce some measure providing such power. If we have deputed the power to other authorities it should be retracted. I cannot conceive of this Dominion government being earnestly desirous of bettering the conditions throughout this country and having absolutely no power with regard to this matter. I think that if the department and the government took this matter up very definitely with the different provinces an arrangement could be arrived at. The time has come when we cannot allow such important matters any longer to be made a football and kicked back and forth. I say that the thing is becoming very serious, so far at least as the workers are concerned. These people go to the provincial authorities who, in many instances, say, "We cannot act in this matter"; then they go to the federal authorities only to receive the same intimation. And in the meantime an immense amount of irritation is provoked, as well as disgust with governmental institutions, resulting finally in trouble such as we had in Nova Scotia. I take it that if the government has power to send troops down to Nova Scotia to quell riots in that province it ought to claim power in some way to remove these evil conditions.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The minister
stated that a large part of the cost was due to the trouble in Toronto. Does he refer to the dispute with the Toronto Electrical commissioners?


James Murdock: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: How much did
that dispute cost?


James Murdock: The board that was
appointed cost $697.94 and the legal services, $6,998.90.


Henry Lumley Drayton: How on earth
did it cost all that?


James Murdock: That is the cost of
legal advice by legal gentlemen who were appointed to oppose the numerous lawyers who were secured by the other side. I may say, however, that we shall get that back because the decision was filed in our favour, with costs.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What retaining fees were
paid by the government in this case? I mention this because in going over the Auditor General's report the other day-


James Murdock: No retaining fees
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Richard Burpee Hanson: [DOT]-I noticed that the government had paid to a Mr. Wilson, now Mr. Justice Wilson, in the Merchants Bank case, a retaining fee of $3,000, and to Mr. Creel-man, of Montreal, in the same case a retaining fee of $2,500. These sums seem to be exceedingly large and out of proportion to what should have been paid; it is more than a private corporation would have to pay for similar services. Perhaps the minister can give us some information as to what services these sums represent.


James Murdock: There were no retaining fees in this particular case.


Richard Burpee Hanson: You will see when you
get the bills.


James Murdock: We paid only for legal services.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Was there not a per diem? What was it?


Richard Burpee Hanson: And to whom was it
paid?


James Murdock: To Mr. H. H. Dewart, for services and expenses-taxed by the Department of Justice, understand-there was paid $1,825.90; to Mr. Lewis Duncan for services and expenses there was paid the sum of $4,532.60; to Mr. Bernard Rose, $140.40; and to Heaton Kortright and Company, electrical industrial experts, $500 was paid for services rendered.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What rate per diem was
paid Mr. Hartley Dewart?


James Murdock: I cannot give that information, I am sorry. My recollection of the other bill is that some $60 a day was paid for the actual handling of the cases.


Henry Lumley Drayton: How many days did the case occupy?


James Murdock: It was considered by
three courts. First of all the judge who dealt with it issued the injunction, then the matter went before Mr. Justice Mowat, taking up some time in his court; finally it went to the Appeal court. I am not sure how many days it occupied altogether. The Department of Justice taxed the bill.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I would point this out in connection with the trouble. We have in Toronto a body that is just as responsible to the voters as is my hon. friend; we have there a municipal commission which under a provincial statute is carrying on public business, not for profit but merely for service. That commission has a dispute with its work-
[Mr. Murdock.l
men, and my hon. friend rushes in. It may be that under present conditions my hon. friend can, as in the Toronto case, do the unnecessary thing.


James Murdock: Surely my hon. friend does not think it fair to ask me, as Minister of Labour, to justify my position when the matter he refers to is before the courts? We have a four-to-one decision in our favour from the appellate court of Ontario, and the case is going to the Privy Council. I do not want to claim any authority for the department except such as the courts may determine it is entitled to exercise. This matter has been pending for many years, and I am entirely willing that the courts should deal with it.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The courts do not put those proceedings in motion. My hon friend asks me what I think is the fair thing to do. I answer: Leave municipal representatives to look after municipal business. On the one hand we are told that the province has everything to do with property and civil rights. If that is so, one would think that the minister would keep his hands off a commission which is running a public utility for service, not for profit. Surely if any effect is to be given to the argument of property and civil rights it should be given in such a case. But apart from that, what is the use of one governmental body interfering with the jurisdiction of another governmental body and at the same time saying:	We cannot do anything
in connection with the Nova Scotia Steel Company's dispute with their workmen because property and civil rights of the province are there called in question? That is the situation. The result is that property and civil rights, where they are in the hands of the Nova Scotia Steel Corporation, are not interfered with, nothing is done; but when they are in the hands of the Toronto Electric Light Commissioners-and it does not make the slightest difference to them personally what the wages of their workmen are, for, as I say, the utility is being operated absolutely for service to the public and without profit- then it is a case for interference on the part of the minister. I do not say anything as to what the courts should do; I am pointing out this absurdity in connection with the administration of the act.


Mr. CARROLL:: The hon. ex-Minister of Finance (Sir Henry Drayton) suggests that the Labou:- department rushes into, the dispute between the Toronto Electric Light Commission and their workmen. I presume this trouble came before the department in the ordinary way?

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James Murdock: Yes.


William F. Carroll: That is what I would point out to my hon friend. The matter came before the minister's department in the usual way, that is, a conciliation board was asked for?


James Murdock: Yes.


William F. Carroll: I presume my hon. friend would be the first to criticize the Minister of Labour and his department if this conciliation board had not been granted.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I certainly would not.


William F. Carroll: Then, does my hon. friend suggest that the Labour department rushed into something not within its sphere of jurisdiction? With regard to the Nova Scotia Steel Company, my hon. friend from Centre Winnipeg (Mr. Woodsworth) is continually harping on our labour troubles in Nova Scotia. I thank Heaven that to-day we have no industrial troubles in my province. Why does he not sometimes make reference to similar troubles in the West? I have never yet heard him say a word in this House on behalf of the miners of the West who at present are on strike.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Is there no trouble at Stellarton at the present time?


William F. Carroll: It is not an industrial
trouble at all, it is an internal trouble which the union is trying to straighten out.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Will the hon. member be good enough to tell the House how it is that Mr. McLachlan is out of jail?


William F. Carroll: My hon. friend knows as much about that as I do.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not think so.


William F. Carroll: He is out of jail because the Justice department granted him parole under the criminal code. Is my hon. friend complaining because Mr. McLachlan is out of jail?
Mr. HANSON': Yes, I am. He was paroled within two or three weeks after being put in Dorchester penitentiary. It is a case without parallel in the history of this country.


William F. Carroll: I am not complaining of Mr. McLachlan being out of jail, because I know of hundreds of people in this country who should be sent to the penitentiary if he merited imprisonment.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I hope you don't mean me.


William F. Carroll: Of course not. I think Mr. McLachlan's is the second case in which the Justice department exercised its powers, another man in Toronto having also been liberated on parole. But I am not going to discuss Mr. McLachlan's case-he and I are not the best of friends. With regard to the Nova Scotia Steel Company, now a part of the British Empire Steel Company, it does not come within the scope of the Industrial Disputes Act, and I believe something should be done to bring all such corporations under the jurisdiction of the Labour department, but, notwithstanding, the Labour department last year sent a commission to Sydney under the chairmanship of Dr. Robertson, a very capable gentleman. They investigated labour conditions in the plants of the Nova Scotia Steel Company and the Dominion Steel Company, and I believe the report which they later made has already had a very good effect upon the industrial relations in both those companies. I agree with my hon. friend that something should be done as quickly as possible to bring all large industrial corporations within the scope of the Industrial Disputes Act. ,It does seem to me to be the height of absurdity-I am not criticising the Labour department-that while the British Empire Steel Company is subject to the jurisdiction of the Labour department, three of its components, the Nova Scotia Steel Company, the Dominion Steel Company and the Dominion Coal Company are outside such jurisdiction. I hope that the Labour department will look into this anomalous condition and take steps to bring all such corporations within the scope of the act. Personally I wish to say a word of praise for the manner in which the Labour department handled the unfortunate lock-out in connection with the coal mines of Nova Scotia. It was not a strike; the miners were given a holiday, so to speak, by the mine managers. The representatives of the miners and of the companies met at Sydney and could reach no agreement. Then with representatives of the International Board they met in Montreal, and there was a deadlock. Our people from Nova Scotia were on the point of going home when the Labour department intervened by wiring to these people to stay there until they could send a representative down. This they did, with the result that an amicable arrangement was arrived at, and in that connection the Minister of Labour and his department did very good work.
The matter of the eight-hour day, to which the hon. member for Centre Winnipeg has referred, is a very serious and a very knotty problem. It strikes me that there should be
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a conference of representatives of the provinces and of the Department of Labour to discuss this matter. I am not sure that the present law takes away any jurisdiction from the federal parliament in the matter of dealing with the eight-hour day. I think that a better argument could be maintained on behalf of federal jurisdiction in connection with the eight-hour day than can be maintained with regard to this very act which is under consideration, the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act. Everything in connection with the eight hour day points to the fact that it is a matter that should be dealt with by the federal parliament.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is it not a matter of civil rights?	t


William F. Carroll: I am not so sure that it is a matter of civil rights. I believe that if the question were referred to the Privy Council-and I am not charging my hon. friend anything for the opinion-they would reach the same conclusion that they reached with regard to liquor legislation as affecting this country; they would say that it was a matter for the well-being of Canada at large, as they did in connection with various other matters which we sent over to them. I believe that if the argument were put strongly before them they would decide that our federal parliament has the right to legislate in regard to the eight-hour day. Why? Is not the matter of temperance a matter of civil rights within the various provinces? In enforcing prohibition you are taking away a right from the individual. The Privy Council decided that both the provincial legislatures and the federal parliament had power to deal with this matter. How much more is the eight-hour day a matter of civil rights than the question of taking away from a man the right to a drink of beer, two per cent or otherwise?


Richard Burpee Hanson: The Privy Council did not say it was a matter of civil rights; they said it was a matter of police regulation.


William F. Carroll: They said more than that. They said it was a matter in connection with the peace, order and good government of Canada; that was their final judgment.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That is the
police section-peace and order.


William F. Carroll: A matter of the peace,
order and good government of Canada. I believe that the matter of the eight-hour day comes as squarely within that category as anything the Privy Council have given their decision upon. But I shall not discuss the matter any further, except to suggest to the Minister of Labour and to the Labour de-

partment that after a conference such as I have suggested there should be a reference -and I am not particular whether it costs the country $10,000 or $50,000-either to the Supreme Court of Canada or to the Privy Council of England, as regards legislative jurisdiction on the eight-hour day. I hope the minister will take my suggestion seriously and act upon it during the coming recess.


James Murdock: We did have such a conference last year, when this matter and other subjects of mutual interest emanating from the International Labour Conference were discussed at considerable length. We have taken some action as a result of that conference and other action is still under way looking to further cooperation.


Mr. SPENCER:: How many strikes took
place last year?


James Murdock: The Labour Gazette foi February, 1924, gives the complete information, arranged under such headings as the following: Industry or occupation; locality; cause of object; method of settlement; result; date of commencement; date of determination; employers involved; employees involved; time lost in working days; duration in working days. There were 91 strikes during the year; The number of employees affected was 32,868 and the number of employers 419, and the time lost in working days, 768,494, or something like 1,206,000 days less than the year, 1922. My hon. friend can get the full information covering a period of years from the February issue of the Labour Gazette.


Mr. SHAW:: The point brought to the attention of the minister by the hon. member for Centre Winnipeg is worthy of serious consideration, that is, the question of the hours of work of federal employees. I noticed a recent editorial in an Ottawa newspaper drawing attention to the fact that, as pointed out by the member for Centre Winnipeg, stationary engineers and firemen are on duty Sunday, Saturday, Good Friday, Christmas, Labour Day and every other holy day and holiday. Watchmen apparently work twelve hours a day seven days a week. I was rather surprised the other day to find upon inquiry that the policemen who patrol this building, both inside, I presume, and outside, work seven days a week. I believe they work, however, only eight hours a day. I see no reason why the federal government should not make the necessary regulations to provide that the employment of its own servants shall come within the provisions of the conventions arrived at overseas and also within the

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provisions of the Lord's Day Act. The minister says these are matters which are under the jurisdiction of the Civil Service Commission, but I would like to be referred to the section of the Civil Service Act which gives authority to the commission to override the action of parliament in the matter of holidays and the Lord's Day Act. This matter, especially that aspect of it bearing upon the hours of work of federal employees, should receive the serious consideration of the minister, because I am sure that without very much difficulty legal changes could be made to bring these employees under working conditions which would be more in accord with the findings of the Genoa conference. Certainly the federal government, in suggesting these changes in labour regulations, should be the first to adopt them, and from that standpoint alone the minister should see to it that, relief is given to federal employees in this regard.


James Murdock: I am very glad to hear
the hon. gentleman take the position he does, and I can assure him that I regard the conditions he speaks of as absurd, obsolete, and unfair to Canada. If he can assist in any way in having those conditions changed I will regard his action as something that is very desirable. The department and the Minister of Labour are doing everything possible to change the conditions, but others have some authority and jurisdiction over them. I agree with my hon. friend that men should not be required to work seven days a week, but I insist that he is in error in thinking that the Civil Service Commission regulations have nothing to do with some of the positions that were enumerated before. I am not referring to the staff of the House of Commons, because that was not referred to by my hon. friend from Centre Winnipeg, but to firemen and others who were mentioned before. I think my hon. friend will find that they come under the regulations of the Civil Service Commission. I have made representations in regard to them on numerous occasions, because I agree with my hon. friend that the conditions ought to be changed.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: This occurs to me at the
moment: If an amendment were made to the Lord's Day Observance Act, providing that federal employees were to get the benefit of the act regardless of any other provi-_ sions, I can see no reason why that could be questioned.


James Murdock: As my hon. friend
knows, all the provinces have a Lord's Day
Observance Act or regulations on the subject.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: It is a Dominion government act.


James Murdock: If my hon. friend will
look into it, he will find that the federal government has to work in consultation with the provincial government on the matter. As a matter of fact, we are now undertaking to do just that very thing, to draw up a regulation that will be held to conform to a certain recommendation emanating from the International Labour Conference.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: My recollection of the Lord's Day Observance Act is that it is federal in its character and in its scope, but that before a prosecution for a violation of the act can take place, the attorney general of the province concerned must give a fiat authorizing such prosecution. I see no reason at all why the federal government cannot legislate with regard to its own employees, and I would like to see the minister make an effort in that direction, at all events.


James Murdock: We have been making
every effort, and if my hon. friend will assist to the extent of going before the Civil Service Commission and urging that some of the conditions now being maintained are absurd, obsolete and out-of-date, he will help some.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: I shall be glad to do it.


James Shaver Woodsworth: If the Lord's Day
Observance Act is intra vires of the Dominion parliament, there seems to be no reason why eight-hour day legislation should be ultra vires.


Mr. LEADER:: When was this conference
held?


James Murdock: September 4, 5 and 6,
1923, in Ottawa.


Harry Leader: I presume I am in order
in bringing to the attention of the House an item which I see in the Auditor General's report, volume 2, page M-14, under the heading "Unforeseen Expenses."


James Murdock: So that my hon. friend
will get the matter straight, that item refers to the conference held in 1922. But it is entirely all right for my friend to bring the matter up.


Harry Leader: It says here, September
5, so I thought it referred to last year, but I see it says 1922. I was going to say that
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the word "unforeseen" should be deleted, and the word "unwarranted" substituted therefor. The item reads:
Expenses in connection with Dominion-Provincial Conference on Unemployment:
The Royal Golf Club, Aylmer Road, Que., dinner of 60 covers	 $347 20
Mr. Chairman, I object to the high cost of dinners, as this is almost 16.00 per plate.
The item continues:
A. J. H. Bruce, services of orchestra at
dinner	 $65 00
The Hull Electric Co., special street car service to Ottawa Golf Club	 $25 00
I would ask the minister whether he, as a representative of the people, thinks that this is a judicious expenditure of public money.


James Murdock: I am not taking any
particular point 'of disagreement with my hon. friend. I would like to have it here and now determined by this House whether it is a consistent thing. I was not altogether enthused over the necessity for it, for the simple reason that I have not been very familiar with these things in the past; it has been a case of work and eat and sleep with me. But the responsible officers of the department and others in the government indicated that as upon that occasion we had here in Ottawa representatives of all the provincial governments in Canada-perhaps my hon. friend would like to have the list?


Harry Leader: It is not necessary.


James Murdock: I think when it comes
to a question of criticizing the Minister of Labour of the federal government, the House ought to have the list now, especially as this matter has been given some newspaper publicity. There is no desire on my part to justify this thing or to dodge any criticism of it. The delegates in attendance were as follows:
Nova Scotia: Hon. G. H. Murray, premier; Hon. R. E. Finn, .minister without portfolio; W. B. Mac-Coy, secretary, Industries and Immigration; Mr. J. C. Tory, M.P.P.
New Brunswick: Hon. Clifford W. Robinson, Minister of Lands and Mines.
Quebec:	Mr. Jos. Ainey, General Superintendent of
Employment Service; Mr. J. A. Metayer, Deputy Minister of Public Works.
Ontario:	Hon. E. C. Drury, premier; Hon. Walter
Hollo, Minister of Labour; Mr. J. H. H. Ballantyne, Deputy Minister of Labour.
Manitoba: Hon. R. W. Craig, Attorney General; Mr. A. MacNamara, secretary, Bureau of Labour.
Saskatchewan:	Hon. J. P. Gardiner, Minister of
Highways; Mr. Thos. Molloy, Commissioner of Labour.
Alberta: Hon. Alex. Ross, Minister of Labour.
British Columbia:	Mr. J. D. McNiven, Deputy
Minister of Labour.
Other gentlemen were also present, attending the conference, but the list I have read 
comprises the representatives of the provincial governments. At that conference in September, 1922, it was suggested that it would be the proper thing, gathered as we were there for a three days' conference, with all the provincial representatives present, to have a little dinner, and I assume full responsibility for giviBg the necessary permission. But if it was not right, you tell me so now, and there will not be any more of it in my department while I am here.


Mr. SUTHERLAND:: Can the minister inform the committee what tunes were played by the orchestra?
Mr. C1RAHAM:	"Work for the Night is
Passing."


Mr. HOEY:: Did the Dominion government pay the entire expenses of that conference?


James Murdock: We paid the expenses of the dinner, but so far as the general expenses of the conference are concerned, the provinces paid the expenses of their own representatives.


Harry Leader: I am very glad to hear the minister say that he is not particularly enamoured of-this method of spending public funds. I know that the city of Winnipeg has made a claim against the Dominion government lor $47,000 towards an unemployment obligation incurred by that city. On the ground of economy the Dominion government, no doubt, cannot help to pay that bill, but $6 per plate that was spent at this dinner would have fed a good many of these unemployed. I am not taking the part of the unemployed particularly; some of them do pot deserve it, but a great many of them undoubtedly do. I am very glad the minister has taken the stand he has taken just now. Every department of the government is permeated with these little entertainments. There are more to come, and I intend as a representative of the people to bring them before the House, and, if the newspapers will take note of them, before the people of this country. If the people are willing to pay for these entertainments, I can afford to pay my share, but I honestly believe that people in general do not know that our public moneys are being used in this manner. Therefore I am making this protest and I am glad to see the minister backing me up. If he wants the House, to decide, I hope they will decide in the right way.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Who is responsible for the music?


James Murdock: I really could not tell
my hon. friend.

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Henry Lumley Drayton: Was there dancing?


James Murdock: I do not think so.


Edward Joseph Garland: As the
minister has apparently been so sincere in this matter, is he prepared to ask the House to say whether they are willing that he shall continue to expend money on this kind of entertainment or not? I think we can get an expression from hon, members if the minister so desires. As a private member I am unable to bring the matter to the attention of the House, but the minister can bring it up.


James Murdock: My hon. friend from
Bow River (Mr. Garland) will understand that I can only properly speak for my own department; and I think my hon. friend will agree that each and every case would have to stand on its merits and be determined at the time. I have noted the objections of my hon. friend, I will pay attention to his suggestions, and will be prepared to assume full responsibility, if there is any failure to comply strictly with his suggestions.


Henry Elvins Spencer: The hon. minister read
to the House the names of various guests from the different provincial governments.. Were any of those guests responsible for the activities?


James Murdock: No, I simply gave the
names in order to indicate the personnel of the conference that was being held, and I did not read all the names. Other gentlemen at the conference were representatives of labour and soldier organizations, and so forth. There were some sixty all told.


Harry Leader: ' I think the House is in a receptive mood this afternoon. Therefore, in order to test the feeling of hon. members in regard to items of this nature, I move that item 270 be reduced by the sum of $347.20, the amount paid for the dinner.


James Murdock: My hon. friend will
understand that the dinner was not paid for out of this item.


Robert Alexander Hoey: Has it been paid for yet?


Donald Sutherland: The minister read
the names of the delegates present, in order to give us an idea as to the kind of people who attended on that occasion.


James Murdock: The personnel of the
conference.


Donald Sutherland: Would that indicate the necessity of taking them over to the Royal Ottawa Golf Club to be entertained?
Could they not have been entertained in Ottawa?


James Murdock: They could no doubt
have been entertained equally as well in Ottawa.


Mr. GOULD:: In his reply the minister
stated that this sum was not to be paid out of the item before the House at the present time. Nevertheless the minister possibly can inform the House whether, when this item which we are now discussing was being compiled, a smaller or greater sum was included in the item for like expenditure or similar events this year.


James Murdock: No, the item the hon.
member from Portage la Prairie (Mr. Leader) speaks about, would be paid out of contingencies. When we come to the contingency vote I will be glad to see how close to the edge we have been travelling with contingencies year by year, so as to ascertain whether it would have made any material difference. It would not have anything to do with this vote at all.


Oliver Robert Gould: Contingencies and consolidated revenue might be classed almost as the same. For instance, the amount of money which the western people think is due them from the activities of the old Wheat Board might possibly be contingencies or consolidated revenue, and provide a nice little feast for gentlemen who come down from Saskatchewan.


Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil) :: That is a
trust account.


Oliver Robert Gould: But the people who produce the money apparently are not entitled to their share of it. It seems to me it is being divided up improperly, if these hon. members receive their share through the pleasures or activities of the Ottawa Golf Club, and the rest of the people who contribute do not get any of it.


James Murdock: Would my hon. friend be willing to let his motion deal with the particular item involved? I am sure he would not want to stint a vote that is for the purpose of maintaining industrial peace in Canada, which is the purpose for which this money we are now voting is to be used.


Harry Leader: I will accede to the minister's request, and will raise this question when the proper item is called. The amount is so infinitesimal, however, that it will not make any difference on any vote. I brought the matter up to test the feeling of hon. members, and I will now withdraw it.
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[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Fair Wages and Inspection Officers, $5,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: What was spent last year?


James Murdock: Every cent of the $5,000 was expended. The items are:
Services and expenses re Vancouver Island
Cost of Living Commission	 $ 017 00
Travelling and office expenses	
4,107	40Freight and expressage	
63	26Sundries	
24	06Telephones and Telegrams	
397	12Printing and stationery	
91	10


Henry Elvins Spencer: Can the minister give us figures of the average wages of farm labourers in Canada?


James Murdock: Does the hon. member want the average current wages paid to labour in Canada?


Henry Elvins Spencer: Farm labour.


James Murdock: No. that would be entirely too large an order.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Does this item relate to the Fair Wages Board?


James Murdock: No, they deal only with Federal government undertakings. They have nothing to do with the fixing of farm wages, or for that matter, any wages, except that they determine what is a fair wage for employees on work which is assisted by Dominion government funds.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I suppose the minister would say that in fixing a fair rate of wages to be paid by the government he does not divorce himself from the proposition of applying the prevalent wage on the labour market generally?


James Murdock: Oh no, I take that into consideration, because when you canvass the entire field you then know what fixes the correct wage for a government undertaking.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Looking at it in that way, I think if the minister tells us his own fair current wage it would give us a pretty good indication as to what the fair prevailing farm wage would be.


James Murdock: Wages differ in different localities. For example, last winter we had a carpenter's rate, as I recall it, at Blind River on the Soo branch of the Canadian Pacific, fixed at 65 cents an hour. The wage for the same class of work in Ottawa or vicinity would be 75 cents an hour, in the Welland

district, 80 cents an hour, at Haileybury on the Temiskaming and Northern Ontario railroad, about 55 cents an hour and out in the West, around Edmonton, about 80 cents an hour. Wages differ in different parts of the country. The same thing is equally true with regard to common farm labour. The rate depends largely upon the demand and the supply, the necessity for getting the labour at any particular point.


Henry Elvins Spencer: I was trying to find out if the minister had given any study to the difference between wages paid in any particular part of the country to men working on farms and men working in other industries, taking into consideration the cost of living, because there is a fairly large difference.


James Murdock: My hon. friend may not know that the Labour department or its Fair-wage officers have nothing whatever to do with fixing rates of wages for farm labour in any part of Canada. In the various provincial employment offices which are partially paid for by the Dominion, the instructions are that all that the officers shall do is to ascertain what wages are offered and to convey that information to the prospective employee. We take no action whatever in determining that this, that or -the other rate shall be the wage set. In cases though like the Welland ship canal, we are called upon to determine what is the fair and current wage for a long list of employees.


Henry Elvins Spencer: How does -the department come to a conclusion regarding that fair wage?


James Murdock: By canvassing the entire district where the work is to be performed, and finding, for example, where blacksmiths, and blacksmiths' helpers, in that territory are employed, how many of them are employed by this, that or the other concern and what they are getting per diem. When the. Fair-wage officers go over the entire field, then a reasonable, fair, consistent, current wage is struck and those are the wages set for the particular Welland canal job. That is the way in which the wage is struck.


Robert James Manion: Has the minister any way of checking up wages paid in Canada in different occupations with wages paid in other countries?


James Murdock: Yes.


Robert James Manion: Has he at hand the wages paid in different countries for different lines of occupation?

Supply-Labour


James Murdock: My hon. friend might
be interested in this publication entitled, "Wages and Hours of Labour in Canada" comprising 1921, 1922, 1923, issued as a supplement to the Labour Gazette of January, 1924. It gives rather interesting data regarding all classes of labour in Canada for those three years. Then we have Report No. 5, which gives hours of labour in Canada and other countries.


Robert James Manion: What about wages?


James Murdock: We have not in these
pamphlets the comparison of wages with other countries.


Robert James Manion: Has the minister that in his department?


James Murdock: Yes.


Robert James Manion: Can the minister offhand give me comparisons, I do not mean absolutely to a cent?


James Murdock: I could possibly intimate what my hon. friend is thinking of and that is that Canada is well in advance of many other countries as respects wages, and approximately close to the United States as respects rates of wages paid for different classes of labour in that country.


Robert James Manion: I know that we are well in advance, but I should like to know how well in advance, if the minister can give me an idea. I have seen figures showing wages in England, Germany, France and other European countries as one-third to one-half wages paid in Canada covering practically all lines of occupation. Can the minister confirm that or has he the figures to give an estimate as to the difference?


James Murdock: I have no doubt that is a practically correct statement, but we shall take care to send to the hon. member a statement giving that exactly.


Robert James Manion: I appreciate the courtesy,
but I should be glad if, instead of sending it to me, when the minister goes on again with his estimates, he would place those figures on Hansard. It would be convenient for the House to have them on Hansard in connection with discussions on various matters.


Mr. SPEAKMAN:: When the minister
gives those figures, woidd he also give us the cost of living index figures for the various countries?


Henry Lumley Drayton: The minister
pointed out how he gets at what the fair-wage is as regards the Welland canal contract and he instanced blacksmiths. I think I am
right in saying that there is a different remuneration for all the different activities.


James Murdock: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: He gets his
average as to blacksmiths from blacksmiths in the neighbourhood, and in the same way for carpenters and so on. As regards direct labour, I understand that the rate is arrived at by finding out what direct labour is paid in the locality. That being in a farming country, a great deal of the labour there would be farm labour. Can the minister give to the hon. member interested in this question of farm labour, any comparison between the rate paid for unskilled labour on the Welland canal contract and the rate for farm labour in that district?


James Murdock: There would not be
very much farm labour taken into consideration in making a computation of this kind. For instance, we took the Hydro-electric big ditch, the labour employed thereon, and also the labour employed in the various large industries in the St. Catharines and Niagara districts. That would be nearer to the class of labour the rates of which we were going to determine on the Welland canal. I do not think we went to any farm labour to make a comparison, because it could hardly be held that a man working in the big ditch would be in the same class of labour. As a matter of fact, the labourer's rate on the Welland canal job was practically fixed by the contractors themselves.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What was the
rate?


James Murdock: Forty cents an hour.
It was offered by the contractors in May last and it was fixed by an order on June 20 last.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Supposing the
minister had to fix the fair-wage rate in the West where there was no other work going on than farm work, and he had to fix the rate in connection with unskilled labour, what attention, if any, would be given to wages paid to farm labourers in that district?


James Murdock: As a matter of fact, we
have at the present time in Edmonton, a controversy over the rate of wages for labour. The rate is said to be, and to have been, forty-five cents an hour, whereas, on the other hand it is contended by the contractor that wages came down to forty cents an hour. We are having a survey made now to determine whether that is the case or not. In connection with elevator construction I do not think that much attention will be given to the rate paid to labourers on the farm; the

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wages paid for work of practically the same nature done in the city will as far as possible be taken as the standard.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Do I understand that the standards are fixed irrespective of farm rates?


James Murdock: I think it would be
almost entirely correct to say so.


Henry Lumley Drayton: And fixed entirely without regard to any question of demand for farm labourers?


James Murdock: Yes, I think so.


Henry Elvins Spencer: I suppose the Department of Labour had something to do with the thousands of men who were sent out west to help in the harvest of last year. Some of these men, it is true, were skilled, but a great many of them were unskilled, and they came west expecting a certain wage. Did any suggestion come from the minister's department as to how much should be paid, and, if so, how was the rate arrived at?


James Murdock: Absolutely no suggestion whatsoever was made, with any authority, by any one in the department as to what wages were to be paid. My hon. friend will remember that eleven thousand or twelve thousand of the harvesters last year came direct from overseas, going to the West, and with these the Department of Labour had nothing to do. The department however, did cooperate with the employment service and with the railways, as it has done in former years, in the recruiting of unemployed labour in the eastern provinces and sending it forward for service in the West. But in no case were any suggestions made as to wages to be paid, for that is a matter to be determined between employer and employee on the ground.


Henry Elvins Spencer: That was not the case in regard to the Canadian Pacific Railway, who had a good deal to do with bringing men from Great Britain.


James Murdock: I can say nothing so far as that is concerned.


James Alexander Robb: Does my hon. friend object to the labour brought into western Canada last year to move the crop?


Henry Elvins Spencer: I object to unskilled men being brought from Great Britain on the strength of the promise that they will be paid the wages of skilled men, although they know nothing about the work which they are going to undertake.


James Alexander Robb: We have made no such promise.
fMr. Murdock.]


Pius Michaud: There are a great many labourers in the Maritime provinces who go west during the harvest. They do not complain about the wages, which they consider fair; but the hours of labour they think are too long: they are required to work from twelve to fifteen hours a day and sometimes as long as seventeen hours. That is something which I should like my western friends to take into consideration.


Harry Leader: I challenge that statement, so far as Manitoba is concerned.


Pius Michaud: I have had it directly
from men who have gone west and have returned to my constituency; I could give their names.


Harry Leader: As an old Manitoban I can say that the hours of labour during harvest time in that province are from 7 a.m. to 12 noon, and from 1 p.m. to 6 and, on some farms, 7 o'clock.


Pius Michaud: They are not as bad in Manitoba as they are in other places in the West.


Oliver Robert Gould: I wish to follow this question up a little further. I have personal experience in this matter, having frequently gone down to the railway for a number of years to meet harvest excursion trains. Every year I am accosted with the statement that these men have been promised $4, $4.50 and even $5 a day, and what my hon. friend (Mr. Spencer) is no doubt trying to find out is the source from which this information comes. It is useless trying to engage these men at any lower wage. It is quite true that a good many of them are worth the money; but going on a train and looking over four or five hundred men who are going west in search of work one can invariably pick out the competent man. But the trouble is that the incompetent man will repeat with gusto the same story in regard to these promised wages, and ft seems to me, from a long experience, that as these harvesters are all armed with this promise or alleged promise, it would be just as well to trace the origin of the information which apparently is given them in the first instance. If the Department of Labour does not make any definite statements to them, the question is, does it convey by implication any promise that these men will receive a certain wage if they go west? The Minister ptated something about employers getting together in the case of the Welland canal, for instance, and suggesting 40 cents or 45 cents to be paid. The committee will realise that .the farmers are unable to get together to arrange a definite rate of wages. I believe

Supply-Labour
that if the department would co-operate with certain farmers' organizations it might be possible to arrive at some definite rate, or to come to some understanding, that would be equitable to all concerned.


James Murdock: My hon. friend forgets that the provinces are really in closer touch with the employment service in the various parts of the Dominion than is the federal government. All that the federal government does is to co-operate with the provinces in maintaining a chain of employment offices clear across Canada. There are provincial employees in all these offices, but we have at Winnipeg one superintendent and two other employees who staff what is called a clearing house to keep in touch with the western territory. That is all the connection we have with the service in that particular regard. My hon. friend asked whether we suggested the wages to be paid. When labour is to be recruited in the East the labour offices in that part of the country indicate what wages the farmers are offering, and that information is given to the prospective employee in the east. We only act or intend to act as a messenger or go-between.


Oliver Robert Gould: It seems, then, that the abstract becomes the concrete when these men go west, and that the general idea as to what is being offered in the West is construed as a definite promise.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Administration, Employment Offices, Co-ordination Act, $50,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: There is an increase of $20,000.


James Shaver Woodsworth: We have, I think,
really three departments that have to do with employment, namely, the Labour department, the Immigration department and the department that has charge of the settlement of soldiers. Will the minister give us a statement regarding the relations that exist among these three departments, and the measure of co-operation that is practised?


James Murdock: The Soldier Settlement
Board is under the Department of Immigration. This particular vote contemplates an increase of $20,000 as indicated by my hon. friend (Sir Henry Drayton). The intention is to take from the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment the employment service activities that have been handled in certain large cities of Canada for handicapped exservice men and to co-ordinate that service with and handle it in the present employment offices, with possibly some additional staff 145
where necessary, to be paid out of this vote, the federal government paying 100 per cent. This vote, and it is an increase of $20,000, contemplates a co-ordination of existing employment services, that is, coupling up the D.S.C.R. employment service for handicapped ex-service men and the general employment service of the federal and provincial governments. The Soldier Settlement Board employment service is under the Immigration department.


James Shaver Woodsworth: It is in regard to that that I want a little clearer light. When the twelve thousand harvesters came over from Great Britain last year was there a consultation between the Immigration department and the Labour department before the campaign was started?


James Murdock: Generally fairly close
touch has been maintained between the Immigration department and the Labour department. Usually, if not always, when additional help is requested from various concerns or individuals the Immigration department ascertain from the Labour department if the Employment Service of Canada is able to furnish the help required, and only in the event of being advised that the help is not available do the Immigration department give permission for this additional labour to come forward. My hon. friend will recall that last year we had in prospect one of the biggest crops in the history of western Canada. It was rather difficult to determine accurately the approximate number of labourers required to handle that crop. It might be said that possibly there was not that collaboration between the Immigration department, the Employment Service of Canada and other bodies which there might have been if we had known beforehand exactly how many men Alberta or Saskatchewan or Manitoba needed. But we could not take a chance of failing to meet the requirements of the West and we had to start to get labour from the East and, to a considerable extent, from overseas in order to be sure of a full supply. As a result I can appreciate my hon. friend may say that we might have known some things that under the circumstances it was impossible for us to know.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I understand the
Labour department has been doing rather good work in trying to dovetail seasonal employment. For example, at certain seasons it is becoming customary for workers in British Columbia to be brought over the mountains to the prairies. Last year that arrangement was more or less disturbed. Then there was a great scurrying around by the Soldier Settle-

Supply-Labour

ment Board-I happened to be in Alberta in the autumn and observed it-which sent its agents all over the country trying to place newly arrived Old Country immigrants. This of course meant that British Columbia and other Canadian workmen were replaced by newer arrivals. Has the minister any information on this particular point?


Mr MURDOCK:: I do not know that I quite get my hon. friend's question. I can assure him that by co-operation and co-ordination we hope to prevent any conflict of effort that may have occurred in the past. This particular vote is to bring about coordination that we think will be valuable and effective. Possibly later further co-ordination can be brought about that will also be valuable.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I asked about a particular matter last year. We had the Soldier Settlement Board sending officials all over the country to find places for some of these Old Country immigrants, and I understand that this resulted in upsetting more or less the arrangements which the employment office had been building up by which men were brought in from British Columbia to work in the western part of the prairie provinces.


James Murdock: My hon. friend is correct. It was alleged that to a certain extent there was that condition. But he must not overlook the fact that about twelve thousand immigrants came from overseas to help gather the western harvest. The Soldier Settlement Board and the Department of Immigration were naturally keeping in close touch with those immigrants and doing everything possible to secure them employment after the harvesting operations were completed. In doing so there was possibly some little conflict, which it is hoped may not recur.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Coming to this year, I have resolutions from Winnipeg, passed within the last few weeks, complaining of the hundreds of unemployed who are finding it impossible to obtain any work in that city, and that notwithstanding this serious condition of unemployment thousands of new arrivals are pouring in. So bad has this become that the city itself is protesting, and, I understand, has been making advances to other Canadian cities with a view to lodging a united protest against the dumping of immigrants who take the place of our unemployed.


James Murdock: I think my hon. friend should wait until the Minister of Immigration comes forward with his estimates and talk to him about that.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I will.


Mr. BROWN:: I appreciate the difficulty of the unemployed in the cities. When I was home at Easter I tried to get the employment service to send men out to my farm, but none have been sent along so far. We have always to take into account the fact that in Winnipeg and other cities there are men who simply will not go on the farm-and many of them are no good when they do go. I think from the standpoint of the men themselves, when large numbers are brought out to this country they should not be advised that any kind of man is going to get $5 a day in the harvest field. I have distinctly in mind cases last harvest where men came out with the impression that they were going to get that high wage. The farmers simply would not pay this rate and the men had to be sent adrift. Both from the standpoint of the farmers and the labourers themselves I think there should be great care exercised in advising men just what wages they are going to get in the harvest field, because otherwise it means disappointment all around. I realize that the whole question is a very difficult one. While naturally I am desirous of getting our wheat harvested at a price which we can afford to pay, yet I think we must be reasonable and recognize the difficulty of those who undertake to provide a supply of labour in gauging just exactly the number of harvesters required. I should like to see the fullest co-operation between the farmers' organizations, the various government departments and the railroad companies; there might even be more co-operation than there has been in the past. I would urge upon officials of the department and upon railway officials and others who promise men high wages in the harvest field to put in a qualifying clause- that the men must be such as can earn the wage that the farmers are willing to pay. There is dissatisfaction all around if that is not done.


Edward Joseph Garland: Mr. Chairman, if I might drag this discussion back from the harvest fields of the West,-I would ask the minister what is the custom of the department on receipt of a report from one of its employment officers that in some town, we will say in Ontario, there are from forty to two hundred unemployed? What would the minister's policy be with regard to immigrants going into that town? What does he do? Does he do anything?


James Murdock: I do not know that it
could be handled in the way my hon. friend suggests.


Edward Joseph Garland: I have not made any suggestion yet.

Supply-Labour


James Murdock: My hon. friend suggests that there might be 200 unemployed in a certain city. As a matter of fact there are more than that in Toronto all the time. Every month of the busiest year there are more than that number who, perhaps, do not want to work, who, perhaps, would not work no matter what kind of job they were offered, and Toronto is the chief point, with Montreal or Winnipeg, to which very many of the people of this country go. Therefore we do not maintain any supervision along the lines suggested by my hon. friend.


Edward Joseph Garland: 
James Murdock: The Minister of Labour has nothing to do with the Sarnia employment office other than to see that it is conducted in accordance with an agreement between the minister and the Ontario government and to pay a proportion of the costs of operating it. Therefore the circumstances in connection with the number of employed there would be reported in the first place to the superintendent of the provincial employment service at Toronto, who would have first-hand knowledge of the conditions; then later it would go to the clearing house in Ottawa. The Department of Immigration through their own officers or through the Soldier Settlement Board are handling the immigration end of it. So my hon. friend will see that the Minister of Labour does not deal directly with the situation he speaks about.


Edward Joseph Garland: Surely the
minister is fully aware of the movement that 145*	'
is on foot not only throughout the East but also in the West, particularly in cities like Winnipeg and Edmonton. For example, the mayor of Edmonton refused to accept a relay of immigrants from Winnipeg on the appeal of the mayor of Winnipeg, on the ground that Edmonton had its own unemployed problem and had no room for these immigrants. I would like to ask the minister if his department is going to let that condition continue, or is he going to take the matter up with the Department of Immigration and see that the flow of immigrants in this country is guided by the conditions here?


James Murdock: The Department of
Labour and the Department of Immigration are closely in touch with each other and in conference on these matters almost daily.


Edward Joseph Garland: And the
problem is still in that state, in spite of the co-operation that the minister speaks of?


James Murdock: Conditions arise which
give occasion to the statement, "We do not want immigrants," while on the other hand we get just as insistent demands in the other direction, for immigrants.


Edward Joseph Garland: From whom do the latter come?


James Murdock: From many and varied quarters, from all walks of life. My hon. friend could get that data more accurately from the Minister of Immigration when he takes up his estimates.


Harry Leader: I understand that the Dominion government co-operates with the provincial government in maintaining employment offices. Then I notice that this item is increased this year by $20,000, and there is the further fact that the employment office at Portage la Prairie has been closed, indicating a saving there. Does the minister contemplate taking on any new work which neessitates the increasing of this vote by 820,000?


James Murdock: My hon. friend must
have been out when I gave the explanation of this vote. It has nothing to do with the office at Portage la Prairie. The additional amount is provided to take over the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment employment service for handicapped ex-service men, the Department of Labour to make arrangements with the provincial governments to handle that work in connection with the existing employment offices, and, where necessary, to appoint additional officers. It is to prevent duplication of effort on the part of the D.S.C.R., the Labour department and the
Supply-Labour

provincial governments, to co-ordinate the employment services and therefore to reduce the cost.


Harry Leader: I thank the minister for
his answer. I do not want the committee to think I am kicking about the closing of the employment office at Portage la Prairie. I am not sufficiently conversant with the conditions to know whether or not it was actually a necessity. I am one of those who will not ask for anything, even for my own constituency, if I do not think it is necessary.


Mr. ROSS (Kingston):: As I understand
it, there is to be a co-ordination of services with a view to assisting disabled ex-service men to get work. Is that the idea?


James Murdock: No. The D.S.C.R. has
for a number of years been maintaining a separate employment service for handicapped ex-service men. That service has been diminishing during the last two or three years until now, for example, in Ontario they have offices at Toronto, London, Hamilton, and Ottawa only. This extra amount is to take that service over and to provide for its being handled where necessary in connection with the existing employment offices.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I understand from
the last few days' discussion that the government are returning to the Liberal platform of 1919. As I recall it, that platform included some provision for unemployment insurance and other kinds of insurance that would be a benefit to the workers. Are steps being taken to provide for some measure of unemployment insurance? We may deal with this matter in a fragmentary or a spasmodic way, but we shall not really touch the root of the problem until some very definite work is done along this line. We are told that other countries are moving. Is the government even going as far as securing information as to what might be done in organizing an unemployment insurance scheme?


James Murdock: Of course, a great deal
of information has come to the department from time to time, and we have also a very complete statement from the British Ministry of Labour dealing with unemployment insurance, as it has been developed in England.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Can we get that?


James Murdock: I have not got it here, but I will bring it the next time my estimates are up.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Is farm labour classified by the department as skilled or unskilled?


James Murdock: I would say that it
should be skilled, but it very often is not. The labour department does not classify it either way. All the department does, through the employment service, is to suggest that experienced farm labour is required.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The hon. member for Lisgar seemed to think, when he was speaking on the question of farm labor, that the present rates were entirely too high, but he did not help the minister by saying what he thought would be a fair rate. He simply objected to $5 a day.


John Livingstone Brown: My objection was not to
harvest wages at all; I think the hon. member has misunderstood me. My objection was to information which is evidently given to men who come there expecting to get $5 per day, whether they are able to earn it or not, and when some of them do not know anything about farm work. Some men come to the harvest fields who are worth $5 a day, and others are not worth fifty cents, and I maintained that it was unfair, from the standpoint both of the man and the employer, that men should come there under the misapprehension that any kind of man was worth $5 a day. Unfortunately, the disposition seems to prevail not only that any man can be a farmer, but that anybody can be a competent farm hand.


Mr. CALDWELL:: I do not know whether I am in order in bringing up this question under this vote, Mr. Chairman; I just came in while my hon. friend from Lisgar was speaking, and I heard farm labour being discussed. I referred to this matter when I was speaking very early last Friday morning, and am pleased to see the Minister of Railways and the Minister of Immigration in their seats now.
The point I wish to bring up relates to the harvest excursions that are run to secure farm help for the West. I urged at that time that the Minister of Railways-he was not then in his seat-or some other responsible minister should see that one part of Canada was not robbed of harvest help to supply some other part. In my province we feel very strongly about this matter. Our farmers in the potato-growing belt have to hire their help by the season, for six or seven months. We pay them good wages in order that we shall have them when the potato harvest comes round, and you can imagine the feelings of a farmer in New Brunswick who has paid a man good wages for four months, and whom he did not need for more than half that time, but kept on just so that he would have him for the potato harvest, when he sees these

Supply-Labour
big posters advertising harvesters' excursions to the West, and his man comes in at six /clock and informs him that he is going West jn the harvest excursion to-morrow or next Monday.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What wages do you pay them?


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: It depends on the skill of the men. I think the point of my hon. friend from Lisgar was that one man might be worth $5 or $6 or $7 a day, and another man might not be worth his board, because he did not know anything about the work, and it would take one man to show him what to do, and he might as well do the work himself. We do not have that difficulty in New Brunswick, because our help is mostly native help, and they are familiar with the work. But we regret very much to see these excursions put on. They practically rob us of the help we have been paying for four months in order to have them with us for the harvest season. I wrote the Minister of Railways last season and urged that the Canadian National Railways should not put on excursions from points where farm help was needed worse than in any other part of Canada, because it was simply robbing us of the men w ; must have if our crop was not to go to waste, and he replied that it was a matter for the management of the railways.


George Perry Graham: That would be protection, would it not?


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: No, justice.


George Perry Graham: Deny these men the right to go any place in Canada?


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: No, but do not hold out special inducements for them to leave the farmer who has been paying them good wages for four months. It is getting labour under false pretences in many cases, too, I think. I contend that this is not a matter for the railway management. This transferring of people from one point to the other should be a matter of government policy. If you leave it to the railways, of course, they like to get the fares, although I submit they are not making very much money out of these harvest excursions. I think the government should take some stand in this matter and see to it that one part of Canada is not robbed of help to supply another. It is like robbing Peter to pay Paul, or worse.


James Murdock: I will give very careful thought to the question of running harvest excursions out of New Brunswick next year. Nova Scotia once asked us not to do it, and I think we asked New Brunswick whether
they wanted us to do it. But I will take into consideration the representations my hon. friend has made.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Whom did you ask in New Brunswick, and what was the reply?


James Murdock: I could not say without looking up the files, but in every case we take it up with responsible ministers of the government.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Before these excursions are put on?


James Murdock: Yes, we ask them whether they want these excursions advertised to run from their respective provinces.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Would the minister
bring down the correspondence the next time his estimates are up, showing to whom he wrote and what the reply was? If we have any responsible minister or public man in New Brunswick who will advise the running of harvest excursions from our province, the farmers would like to know who he is.


James Murdock: I will bring down such correspondence as we may have in the department.


John Livingstone Brown: We like the men from Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, and would be very sorry to be deprived of them.


Donald Sutherland: Does the minister
exercise control over the rates on the railways?


James Murdock: Not at all.


Donald Sutherland: I do not know what else we can infer from his last remark, that if certain provinces take exception to these excursions being run, due consideration will be given to their representations. I think the objection is a very pertinent one, and one that ought to be emphasized in this parliament. We have been accustomed for quite a number of years back to having these excursions run every fall, and to seie the men after the work is over in the West come trooping back to the older provinces with the result that in the larger cities you have a large number of unemployed who are maintained during the winter by the cities, and the impression goes abroad that there is an army of unemployed here in Canada, and this is being used in the Old Country to deter desirable people from coming here. Only a week ago, while passing through Toronto, I noticed a large gathering in front of the city hall. They were supposed to be unemployed, and they were being addressed by a man whom I noticed was sent to gaol for six months by a Toronto magistrate only a few days ago. The

2290	COMMONS
Supply-Trade and Commerce
magistrate claimed that he was a rebel, and that he was encouraging other people to rebel against the conditions they found in this country. This man claimed to be a leader of the harvesters who had been induced to come out here and go to the West, and who, when their work is through, come back to old Ontario and put in the winter in Toronto and other cities. I heard this man myself advising these people what to do.
Progress reported.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


TRADE AND COMMERCE
[Stage Direction]
Bounties on crude petroleum, administration of act, $3,000.
Henry Elvins Spencer: Could we have an explanation of this item?


Hon. T. A. LOW (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: This vote is the same as last
year, and is for the purpose of administering the act in relation to the claim for bounties in connection with crude petroleum. There is no change.


Robert James Manion: Would the minister explain what the staff consists of?


Thomas Andrew Low: There are four officials on the staff; Mr. McDermid, Mr. Boyle, Mr. Slipper and Mr. LeBlanc. Mr. McDermid is located at Petrolea and is paid a salary of $1,500, Mr. Boyle at Sarnia, with a salary of $200, Mr. Slipper at Edmonton, salary $200, and Mr. LeBlanc at Sarnia, salary $100.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Bounties on copper bars or rods, administration of act, $2,500.
Robert James Manion: Will the minister explain
the decrease?


Thomas Andrew Low: This item has been reduced
by $2,500. It is thought that this sum will be sufficient to carry on for this year.


Robert James Manion: How much was spent last year?


Thomas Andrew Low: We spent last $540.78.


Robert James Manion: Out of a vote of $5,000?


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

British and foreign news service, $32,000.
Henry Elvins Spencer: Will the minister explain the increase?


Thomas Andrew Low: This item is for $32,000. Last
year the amount was voted for only eight months. This includes the full twelve months. The amount last year for eight months was $21,333.34. The amount for this year for twelve months, is $32,000.


Robert James Manion: How much was spent last year?


Thomas Andrew Low: The full amount, $21,333.34
That covered eight months.


Mr. WOODS WORTH:: Would the minister explain this a little more fully?


Thomas Andrew Low: The object of this is to present to the outside world what is going on in Canada and to keep alive in Canada interest in Canadian industries through Reuter's Limited.


James Shaver Woodsworth: What control has
the government over this service?


Thomas Andrew Low: The control is that Reuter's
agree to transmit at least 10,000 words a month of interest to Canada in connection with all matters that will be of benefit to Canada in the United Kingdom.


James Shaver Woodsworth: This is simply a
kind of advertising service for Canada.


Thomas Andrew Low: It is an advertising service. It is a well known fact that it pays to advertise sometimes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Administration of Canada Grain Act, $1,100,000.
Thomas Andrew Low: In the past the estimate has included both the cost of administering the Grain Act and the management and operation of Canadian government elevators. In the estimate this year these are separated. Last year the appropriation amounted to $1,558,839. Although the two appropriations are distinct, the total amount of both this year is $1,520,000, a decrease on the combined appropriations of $38,839.


Robert James Manion: This is a big item and one of a great deal of interest particularly to hon. members from the West and also to others interested in the grain trade. Will the minister give the committee some details as to how the money is spent?


Thomas Andrew Low: The expenditure is as follows:
Board of Grain Commissioners	 $ 34,154
Western Inspection division	 875,205
Eastern Inspection division	 21,912
Grain Research Laboratory	  9,610
Miscellaneous	 16,256
To**1	 $957,138

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Robert James Manion: How much of this is spent by the Grain Commission as their own salaries and the salaries of their employees?


Thomas Andrew Low: The total amount is spent
by the Grain board:	The commission staff
consists of:
Chief Commissioner	 $6,500
Commissioner Snow	*	6,000
Commissioner Robinson.. -	 6,000
Secretary	*	 3,600
Total	$22,100


Robert James Manion: I know there is an elevator at the head of the lakes and one at Saskatoon. I think there is one at Vancouver. Will the minister explain the costs and returns from those elevators?


Thomas Andrew Low: There are five government
elevators. The total revenues are as follows:
Port Arthur	 $374,861
Moose Jaw	 20,841
Saskatoon	 27,392
Ca'lgary	 76,674
Vancouver	 96,106
Total	   $595,876
The total expenditures are as follows:
Port Arthur	 $137,261
Moose Jaw	 57,709
Saskatoon	 78,624
Calgary	 62,095
Vancouver	 90,566
Screenings account	 2,759
Total	$429,016


Robert James Manion: Would the minister explain the heavy loss on the Saskatoon elevator?


Thomas Andrew Low: The only reason I can give is
lack of business. The same thing applies to Moose Jaw.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: Does the staff remain the same whether there is 100 per cent business or 50 per cent business?


Thomas Andrew Low: It takes a much larger staff to
operate at Port Arthur or Fort William than at Moose Jaw or Saskatoon, but we have to retain a certain staff at the latter two points.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: At Vancouver where the
revenue was $96,106 the cost was $90,566. At Saskatoon, where the revenue was $27,392, the cost was $78,624.


Thomas Andrew Low: It takes a certain organization
to carry on the work at the elevator at Moose Jaw. We have a plant there that cost over $2,000,000. We have to maintain a certain staff whether the business comes in or not unless we decide to close the place up.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: Are there any capital
charges in this amount?


Thomas Andrew Low: No.


Mr. CRERAR:: It includes the maintenance charges?


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: It is an enormous sum
of money to spend for a revenue of $27,000.


Thomas Andrew Low: I am not responsible for the
elevator having been built there.


Mr. MILLAR:: Has the inspection, staff
been very materially increased in the last few years? I have heard the complaint that while business has greatly increased there has been but a slight addition to the staff so that to-day they are not able to do the work efficiently.


Thomas Andrew Low: There has 'been a considerable
increase due to the increase in business.


John Millar: How much of an increase?


Thomas Andrew Low: I cannot give the figures tonight but I shall be glad to get them.


John Millar: Comparing the revenue
with the outlay in connection with the Board of Grain Commissioners and the elevators, is there a surplus or a deficit, and how much is it?


Thomas Andrew Low: The operations of the elevators during the past thirteen years and ten months have produced a surplus of $94,000.


Robert James Manion: There has been some talk
for some time of a change in the location of the Board of Grain Commissioners, which, ever since the institution of the Canada Grain Act, has been situated at the head of the lakes. Is there any intention this year of changing the situation of the board?


Thomas Andrew Low: We have not so far thought
of any change.


Robert James Manion: I take it that the matter
is not under investigation with a change in view.


Thomas Andrew Low: No.


Mr. CLARK:: Are all the elevators in
the city of Vancouver administered by the Department of Trade and Commerce?


Thomas Andrew Low: No, they are under the Department of Marine and Fisheries.


John Arthur Clark: I cannot understand how
it is that the minister gives us the report on the Vancouver elevators.


Thomas Andrew Low: The Department of Trade and Commerce has charge of the work of inspection and weighing.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


John Arthur Clark: I understood the Department of Trade and Commerce had handed over the elevators to the Harbour Commission.


Thomas Andrew Low: The business of inspection
and weighing is still carried on under the Board of Grain Commissioners.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Is it the intention of the department to maintain the inspection and weighing at Vancouver under the control of the Board of Grain Commissioners?


Thomas Andrew Low: That is what we are doing
now. As to what we shall do in the future, I should not like to venture a prediction.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I desire if posable to have
some assurance from the minister that this will be done. The matter is one of considerable importance and such an assurance from the minister is I think necessary. Most hon. gentlemen who are familiar with the grain situation in the West know that the Board of Harbour Commissioners in Vancouver desire to secure the control of the weighing and inspection at that point. That in my opinion would be a very great mistake. The control of the inspection, of the inspection of officials, and of the weighing should certainly remain under the Board of Grain Commissioners at Vancouver just as in the case of the terminal elevators at the head of the lakes, and at Moose Jaw, Saskatoon, Calgary, and, I presume, Edmonton when the new elevator there is completed. I repeat, I should be glad if the minister would give us an assurance that this will be done. I can tell him that it is the universal wish not only of the growers of grain but as well of the handlers of this commodity that the inspection and weighing should be under the control of the Board of Grain Commissioners.


Thomas Andrew Low: When the matter is under
consideration I shall be glad to bear in mind the representations of my hon. friend.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not wish to embarrass the minister at all but the matter is of very great importance and I am anxious to have some assurance from him that if any change is contemplated, and before a change is made, whereby the supervision of the inspection and weighing passes from the Board of Grain Commissioners, the growers of grain who are vitally interested in this matter, as well as the handlers and dealers, will be given an opportunity to make representations to the minister.


Thomas Andrew Low: I shall be glad at any time to receive such representations and as a matter of fact I have received some.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The minister is evading my question entirely and I do not propose to let him off that way. I want to know whether the minister will give the committee an assurance that before a change is made an opportunity will be given to those who are interested to make representations either to himself or to the government.


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes, I shall be glad to do that.


John Millar: I support the request of my hon. friend (Mr. Crerar) 100 per cent. It is very important that the control of the inspection and weighing should be retained under the Board of Grain Commissioners. Now that the minister has given us the information that there is a surplus of $94,000 each year-


Thomas Andrew Low: Not each year; I said that was the surplus for thirteen years and ten months of operations.


John Millar: Does that include the inspection department, the fees from that department, the sale of samples, and all that sort of thing? If it does, it seems rather small.


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes. it includes the total revenue. My hon. friend must remember that in the early years of the operations of the Canada Grain Board there was a considerable loss.


John Livingstone Brown: In view of that statement, what is the present situation? What would be the surplus over expenditure for the past year including all branches of administration?


Thomas Andrew Low: For the past ten months it was $242,000.


John Livingstone Brown: That means that the grain trade, in other words the farmers, are asked to contribute that much to the consolidated revenue.


Thomas Andrew Low: We had that surplus last year; we do not know what the surplus will be this year.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I appreciate very much the cautious attitude of the minister in approaching this question, but I think, in view of the surplus the department has had not only within very recent years but in previous years as well, the department might very well consider a reduction in the weighing and inspection fees.	*


Robert James Manion: I would ask the minister to let this item stand for a while. My hon.

Supply-Trade and Commerce
friend from Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) informed me that he had some questions to ask regarding it and he is not here at present. He has been out of town and will be back this evening; in fact I expect him in a few minutes.


Thomas Andrew Low: I shall be glad to let it stand


Mr. CAMPBELL:: How does the situation stand at the head of the lakes in the matter of shipping, and what is being done there to cope with it?


Thomas Andrew Low: I am not aware of any congestion at the head of the lakes at the present moment; everything is working out all right.


Milton Neil Campbell: I am aware that there is no congestion at the present time but it seems to me that this is the very occasion to take some means to prevent such a condition in the future. The situation that exists there to-day is one for which perhaps the government can take no particular credit; it is due to the fact that there is a surplus of American shipping. The rates have come down since October to about less than half what they were then, by reason of that fact. I think therefore that something ought to be done now to prevent a recurrence of the condition we had last fall and the fall before.
The remarkable feature is that Canadian vessels are taking grain from the head of the lakes to Buffalo for two cents rather than carry it half the distance to Georgian bay ports for two and a half cents a bushel. This discrimination is not new; it has always existed. Our vessel owners are doing it simply and solely because our coastal laws prevent American vessels carrying grain to Georgian bay ports. The purpose of these laws, as I understand, was to secure Canadian trade for Canadian ships. But they are abusing the privilege, and as a result a lot of our grain is being diverted to American ports and reaching seaboard by American railways instead of our railways getting the benefit of the haul. It seems to me that if these coastal laws were suspended our Canadian ships would not only stay in their own waters but we would get probably the same number of American ships in the trade as we are getting to-day. Something should be done to prevent a recurrence of this discrimination.


John Livingstone Brown: What is the intention of the minister with regard to the work being done by Dr. Birchard in Winnipeg? We were very sorry to know that it had been suspended, temporarily at least.


Thomas Andrew Low: We are waiting for the report of the Royal Grain Commission. After considering that report certain changes may be made.


Milton Neil Campbell: What does the minister say with regard to the shipping situation?


Thomas Andrew Low: Nothing untoward happened last fall, and I do not think there is any danger of anything happening during the early part of this season. Before the session is over we hope to introduce certain amendments to the act passed last session.


Milton Neil Campbell: Would the minister tell us something of the nature of the changes that are proposed?


Thomas Andrew Low: As the bill is not yet drafted I should not like to venture any forecast.


Milton Neil Campbell: Will the amendments
deal with the coastal laws?


Thomas Andrew Low: I should not like to venture any forecast of what the bill will deal with.


Arthur Meighen: Was that Halifax byelection elevator under the Trade and Commerce department?


Thomas Andrew Low: There is an item in the estimates for the Halifax elevator.


Arthur Meighen: Is that under the Trade and Commerce department?


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes, and later on I am sure
there will be ample opportunity to discuss it.


Robert Alexander Hoey: Does this item contain any* thing for carrying on the work which Dr Birchard has been engaged in until recently?


Thomas Andrew Low: The item is contained in the vote for the Canada Grain Act, with the exception of Dr. Birchard's salary, which is included in the civil government estimates.


John Millar: I think the work done by Dr. Birchard is more important than is generally understood. In past years our grain growers have been losing heavily because certain interests have been picking out the grain that is strongest in gluten and the cars containing this grain are diverted to the mixing elevators. The American interests need our strong wheat to mix with their soft wheat, and they too have been selecting our stronger grades. We have had to bear a heavy loss because we have no effective means of finding out the strength of our wheat. Then again, certain kinds of wheat when discolored by a little moisture are thrown into number three, whereas it has been found by milling tests that they are really as good as number one. Tbie wheat is really number one slightly discolored. Therefore the grower and shipper have been losing seven cents a bushel, simply

Supply-Trade and Commerce
because milling value of the wheat was not known. I would urge on the minister that this department not only be maintained but that it be developed and put in closer touch with the chief inspector. I think if more money were spent on this department in order to make it more efficient and constitute it an adjunct of the inspection department, so the inspectors would have the full benefit of expert knowledge of this kind, our farmers would get more than sufficient to warrant the increased expenditure.


John Livingstone Brown: I hope too that publicity
will be given to Dr. Birchard's work. It has been very difficult in the past to get any jdnd of report of the results of his work, except surreptitiously.


Thomas Andrew Low: I quite agree with the hon. member that the work is very important. If we find that we can carry on the laboratory work as it has been conducted in the past we will do so; if not we will probably introduce a more efficient method. In regard to publicity, I may say that we have received no report from Dr. Birchard since 1921. I assure hon. members that I have no desire to eliminate any work that will be of benefit to our agricultural interests.


Mr. KNOX:: Was it the fault of Dr.
Birchard that no further report was made?


Thomas Andrew Low: He sent in a partial report
in 1921. Up to the present time he has never completed that report.


Andrew Knox: I have a hazy recollection
of a certain report of Dr. Birchard's being suppressed some years ago.


Thomas Andrew Low: I do not know of any report
being suppressed since this government came into office.


Edward Joseph Garland: Are these reports available to the public? If so, where may they be secured?


Thomas Andrew Low: All reports are tabled.


John Millar: May I revert to a matter
that we were discussing a few minutes ago? To a question asked by the hon. member for Saskatoon (Mr. Evans): What was the value of such overages to the government?-referring to the overages in elevators-the answer was:	The value of such overages due
to the government for the period 1920 to 1923, inclusive, amounts to $477,152.03. Is that included in the calculation given by the minister?


Thomas Andrew Low: That is included in the surplus.
[Mr. Millar.l


William F. Carroll: Do my hon. friends wish
to have another report in order to boost a civil servant and incur a further expenditure of three or four thousand dollars?


Andrew Knox: I say we should have a report from the laboratory to show the work that has been done. Our grain growers feel that such information Avould be to their distinct advantage if contained in annual reports, so as to overcome the difficulty of having the best types of grain taken away while the man who has grown that grain does not get the full advantage of it. If we had the reports to show the quality of the grain it would make a material difference.
Item stands.
Canadian Engineering Standards Association, grant to, $10,000


Robert James Manion: Will the minister explain this vote?


Thomas Andrew Low: It is a grant to the Canadian Engineering Standards Association for the promotion of uniformity of standards in metallic and other products.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canadian Government Motion Picture Bureau, $25,000.
Robert James Manion: Will the minister explain?


Thomas Andrew Low: The amount is $10,000 less than last year. The vote includes salaries of temporary employees, travelling expenses, expenditure for films, chemicals, photographic supplies, printing and stationery, repairs to instruments and sundry expenses.


Robert James Manion: What is the purpose of the whole vote? Is it advertising?


Thomas Andrew Low: The Motion Picture Bureau under the Department of Trade and Commerce was established for the purpose of advertising abroad Canada's scenic attractions, agricultural resources and industrial development.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: When was that started?


Thomas Andrew Low: In 1918.


Robert James Manion: How is it that we are able to reduce the vote by $10,000 this year?


Thomas Andrew Low: A general curtailment.


Henry Elvins Spencer: How much was spent last year?


Thomas Andrew Low: Spent last year-$23,303.17. I may say that there is a revenue in connection with the Motion Picture Bureau. For the year ending 31st March, 1923, the revenue was $16,141. For the period ending 31st January, 1924, it amounted to $10,490.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Robert James Manion: Where does the revenue come from? And will the minister give us some more details in regard to the reductions? The expression "a general curtailment" is not very definite.


Thomas Andrew Low: We have reduced the number
of the temporary staff and also the travelling expenses.


Robert James Manion: What does the revenue
come from?


Thomas Andrew Low: Moving picture films.


John Arthur Clark: To whom are these disposed of?


Thomas Andrew Low: To a number of firms-Canadian Universal Film Company; First National Exhibitors of Australia; Premier National Pictures, Australia; African Films; Centre Theatre; Monument National Theatre, Family Theatre. Films are made for other departments of the government also.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Thomas Andrew Low: With regard to item 372, the
hon. member said that the member for Centre Vancouver wished to discuss the Vancouver elevator. He will have ample opportunity under item 379 to do that-operation and management of Canadian government elevators.


Robert James Manion: I thought the member
for Vancouver Centre was coming in on tonight's train, but I am informed that he spoke to-day in Toronto at noon so that it is likely that he will not be here. The minister has a number of important items to deal with before he deals with that, and I suggest that he hold it over or at least that he keep it until the last item to-night.


Thomas Andrew Low: I shall be very glad to meet
the wishes of hon. gentlemen in that respect.


Thomas Andrew Low: Item 380.


Arthur Meighen: Why is the minister
adopting the kangaroo method of skipping items?


Thomas Andrew Low: To meet the wishes of my hon. friends.


Arthur Meighen: We only asked that the one item be held.


Thomas Andrew Low: All right we will take up
379.
Elevators, operation and management of the Canadian government, $420,000.


Robert James Manion: Are these the elevators
in connection with which the minister gave some figures some time ago under the Canada Grain Act item?


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: This is not one of the
items I referred to as being skipped. The ones I had in mind were such as these: Commercial Intelligence Service; Dominion Bureau of Statistics; Electricity and Gas Inspection. Items relating to elevators might be held.


Thomas Andrew Low: I did not think my right hon.
friend was going to ask that all the large items be held over.


Arthur Meighen: I am asking that we
take up some that are skipped.


Thomas Andrew Low: We are skipping them to meet
the wishes of hon. members on the other side.


Arthur Meighen: We are asking that
these elevator items stand.


Thomas Andrew Low: Then we will take up No. 375. Item stands.	t
Commercial Intelligence Service, $324,720.


Arthur Meighen: Is this increase in pursuance of a policy of general enlargement?


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes, this is one branch of the
department in connection with which I think it is wise to spend money-the extension of our export trade. There is an increase of $4,720. A number of new offices have been opened up. I do not think it would be wise to curtail the Intelligence branch of the department.


Mr. LADNER:: Does this vote include the
publication that is issued regularly?


Thomas Andrew Low: It includes all publications of
the Commercial Intelligence Service.


Harry Leader: I notice in the third volume of the Auditor General's report, on page ZZ-30, under the heading "Trade Commissioners and Commercial Agents" an item designated Entertainments. I would like to have some information on that.


Thomas Andrew Low: Does that come under the item we are discussing?


Harry Leader: Yes.


Thomas Andrew Low: What is the amount?


Harry Leader: There are several items.


Thomas Andrew Low: There is an allowance made
each year for the trade commissioners. I do not know just what my hon. friend has in mind, but unless it is something special it would be included, I presume, in the usual allowance.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Harry Leader: Perhaps I might explain
further. In going through the Auditor General's report I see a number of items-I have found twelve to-night, and there may be others-for entertainment. They are not very large in themselves, but in the aggregate they amount to considerable, and these expenditures I would classify as unwarranted. They have not even the virtue of patronizing the home market. Here, for instance, is an entertainment in Paris costing $76.09; one in Japan, $113.65; one in India, $134.74; one in Italy, $46.68; one in Old England, $34.14; one in Barbados, $59.30; one in New York, $222.75 -the larger the city the greater the expenditure, of course; another one in Rio de Janeiro $184.05; coming back to England again, another one costing $58.53; one in Jamaica, $66.30; one in Singapore, $46.80. I have not had time to total them up, but they amount approximately to $1,200.


Thomas Andrew Low: I suppose my hon. friend will
agree '".hat at times the trade commissioners will be called upon to entertain trade delegations. That is not an unusal thing in business. Quite frequently in my own firm we have accounts come into our business offices for entertainment, and we do not look upon that expenditure as a waste of money.


Robert James Manion: Before dinner there was a question raised as to an entertainment on the other side of the river in connection with the interprovincial delegates to a labour conference here at Ottawa. I am wondering if the same principle is upheld by the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Does the government live up to the Ontario Temperance Act in these entertainments?


Thomas Andrew Low: Was my hon. friend a guest' of the Minister of Labour?


Robert James Manion: I was not. I read about it.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: Is there any limit put upon the amount that is to be spent by a trade agent for entertainment, or has he carte blanche?


Thomas Andrew Low: He is not allowed to spend an
unlimited amount. The accounts have to be approved by the minister.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: What is the limit of the minister?


Thomas Andrew Low: It is a matter of judgment for the minister.


Harry Leader: These commercial agents do a good deal of travelling, I presume, for I see items here amounting to a considerable amount of money. Sometimes they travel alone and the amount is not so large, in the neighbourhood of $1,400; another trade agent

takes his wife along and it runs the bill up considerably, to over $2,000. I do not blame him for taking his wife along, but in some cases he takes his family also; I think we might draw the line there. In that case the travelling expenses amount to almost $3,000.


Thomas Andrew Low: It would be utterly impossible to secure the services of good men unless we agreed to pay the travelling expenses of their families en route to their posts. It would hardly be reasonable to expect a trade commissioner to leave his wife and family in this country while he went abroad for two or three years.


Harry Leader: I do not find so much fault with that, but I am really pleading for economy to-night. I do not think t'he Dominion of Canada can stand these unwarranted expenditures at this time, and therefore I would like to see a stop put to this practice. I believe the ministers themselves desire that, but someone has to take the initiative, and I believe parliament should do it.


Mr. HUGHES:: On what principle are the'
trade commissioners appointed? What qualifications are considered necessary, and does the minister think he is getting value for the money expended in this way?


Thomas Andrew Low: The trade commissioners are
appointed by the Civil Service Commission.
I cannot say that I agree with the system of appointing them, but that is the way they are appointed. The qualifications are that they shall be graduates of some recognized university. and under the age of thirty-two, so if any member of parliament is thinking of applying for a trade commissionership, he is limited in that respect. I do not agree that that is the best way of securing trade commissioners to send abroad. I think the first essential should be that a man should have a good education, and secondly, some business experience. A young man, fresh from a univerity, who is sent to Africa or Japan or China, can hardl}'' be expected to give the best results.
I will give you an example of what happened a few years ago. A gentleman came out from Scotland, a graduate of a Scottish university, and a lawyer by profession. He located in Winnipeg, and after spending a couple of years there noticed an advertisement for a trade commissioner. He put in an applcation, and needless to say, with his education, he came out at the top of the list, and he is now one of our trade commissioners abroad. Now I think that a man should have lived in this country a longer period than two and a half or three years before being appointed a trade commissioner, because in that period he can-

Supply-Trade and Commerce
not have acquired a sufficient knowledge of the business and commercial affairs of this country to represent it abroad. That is my opinion at least. I think one of the essentials should be that he should have some knowledge of Canadian business. Nor do I think that the age of 33 should bar an applicant. There are many good men of experience from 40 to 45 years of age, who would make first-class trade commissioners. Probably much better ones than a university graduate, 23 or 24 years of age, without any business experience whatever.


James Joseph Hughes: The statements made by
the minister are quite startling. Whoever were the authors of that system evidently did not know anything about their business, and the sooner the system is amended or ended the better. To select a young man of thirty-two perhaps with no business experience at all, as is the fact in the case indicated by the minister, for a position of this kind, would seem to be a total waste of money and a total disregard of the qualifications necessary for such a position. In connection with trade matters men of experience should be selected, and not professional men. A few years ago I happened to meet a young man, a graduate from one of the universities-no harm in being a graduate but rather a recommendation-and this young man was going as a commissioner to Newfoundland as a representative of the Maritime provinces. He belonged to the province of Ontario and had passed his examination no doubt. I had the opportunity of speaking to him for about half an hour, and I found that he did not know anything at all.


An hon. MEMBER:: Did he know a codfish?


James Joseph Hughes: He would not know a codfish from a herring. He might, perhaps, if he were sent into a business office, know something about the business at the expiration of eight or ten years, but to send a stripling from the university to represent the business men of the country and the Department of Trade and Commerce, to meet business men, when he himself knew nothing of business, would be simply a farce. He was going to St. John's, Newfoundland. No business man would waste an hour talking to him.


William F. Carroll: Who sent him?


James Joseph Hughes: The Civil Service Commission, the minister says.


William F. Carroll: Who laid down the regulations by which such officials are appointed?


James Joseph Hughes: I think two gentlemen who prepared that Civil Service Act in 1918, and
they were in my opinion the most overrated and impracticable men in the Dominion of Canada.


Arthur Meighen: Who were they? Was one of them the present Chief Justice of the Exchequer Court?


James Joseph Hughes: I do not care who he was or what position he holds.


Arthur Meighen: The hon. member might at least pay him that compliment and have it go direct to him, so that there will be no mistake.


James Joseph Hughes: I am talking business now, and my hon. friend wants to be a little smart.


Arthur Meighen: I could not recognize the reference myself. Will the hon. member be good enough to state to whom he refers?


James Joseph Hughes: I am not asking the right hon. member to recognize anything.


Arthur Meighen: The hon. member tried to talk a little politics in his last few sentences, and he is making about as good a fi9t of it as he did of the business end.


James Joseph Hughes: Oh, indeed. I do not expect to suit my hon. friend. I am inclined to think he does not know very much about it either. I am making my statement to the business men of this committee, and I think they will recognize that my suggestion has merit. This system has to be changed if we ire to get results.
The markets for the province from which I come and the Maritime provinces generally are in the West India islands, in the island of Cuba, and the United States of America. The hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan), speaking some wedks 'ago in this chamber, stated that when he was in the West Indian islands recuperating from his illness he made it his business to try and find the trade commissioner there. The description he gave of the office of the commissioner and the way in which it was conducted was simply discreditable to Canada. There is nothing-and I make this statement in the presence of hon. members from the Maritime provinces-that the Minister of Trade and Commerce could do that would be of such advantage to the Maritime provinces as to send experienced business men from those provinces to the West Indies, to Cuba and the southern States, where we sell potatoes, to interview the business men there and to establish markets. We do some business with that part of the world at the present time, and, the business could be greatly enlarged. They

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want our butter, eggs, cheese, hay, potatoes, and grain, and we want their products, but that market is neglected. It is of no use whatever sending inexperienced youths down there to try to open these markets and to develop trade and commerce. If the Civil Service Commission will not allow the minister to send qualified men of experience, something will have to be done with that commission. The business of the country cannot be tied up in that way, and it is up to the Parliament of Canada to see that these conditions are changed. If there were business men, or even one good business man, on the Civil Service Commission, I do not believe they would try to hold up the Minister of Trade and Commerce in this way. I have brought this matter before the committee, and I think it should receive attention. I have no hesitation in saying that the money we are paying out for this service at the present time is largely wasted and the country is not getting the benefit.


John Arthur Clark: I have always understood
that the minister had power to dismiss a civil servant, and certainly he has the power to refuse to accept an appointment made by the Civil Service Commission. These two things should rather safeguard the situation. Another phase of the matter which appeals to me is that the present system has one merit, and that is that it makes it impossible to appoint men as a reward for political services. I think we should seriously bear that in mind. But I would like the minister to state just what he has in mind, He condemned the system. Surely he has a remedy, and perhaps he would outline it to us.


Thomas Andrew Low: When parliament decides to
amend the Civil Service Act I am sure I will be very glad to give parliament the benefit of my suggestions, but I think it is a waste of time discussing it to-night.


John Arthur Clark: I think it is far from a waste of time. Perhaps, if the hon. minister would give the House the ideas he has in mind, pressure might be brought to bear on the government in the matter. If I am not mistaken the Prime Minister always declares that he must hear the voice of parliament before he introduces legislation; therefore, I think it is a most opportune time for the minister to tell us what the remedy is, and then perhaps parliament can voice its opinion.


Thomas Andrew Low: I have no hesitation in telling my hon. friend that I think the minister should have at least some voice in the selection of trade commissioners who are to be sent abroad.
{Mr. Hughes.]


Horatio Clarence Hocken: Do I understand the minister is compelled to accept a man who has no business experience for a business position?


Thomas Andrew Low: We have to give him a trial. Of course, the minister can refuse to accept a man who is appointed. For instance I laid off four junior trade commissioners the other day because I was of the opinion that, while they were probably good men in some other lines they would not make good trade commissioners abroad. It is in the power of the minister to refuse to accept an appointee, but what is going to be accomplished by that? If we continually refuse the men whom the Civil Service Commission send to us, where is it going to end? I do not see that that would be a remedy at all.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: It is a great mistake to have a regulation that fixes the age limit at thirty-two in connection with a position of that kind. I agree with the hon. member for Kings, P.E.I. (Mr. Hughes) that a more mature man ought to be taken for such a position. Surely it is within the power of the government to amend a regulation of that nature. I should judge that the hon. member for Kings, P.E.I., would make an admirable trade commissioner in Jamaica or the Maritime provinces. He is beyond the age of thirty-two, I am afraid; but certainly to take a young man of thirty-two who has just come out of a university and who has no business experience and make him a trade commissioner, is about as asinine a procedure as I can imagine.


Robert Alexander Hoey: Is it not true that these men are trained for a year at least, sometimes more, before they are sent abroad? What is the nature of that training?


Arthur Meighen: Is it a statutory law that university training must be had?


Thomas Andrew Low: It is a Civil Service Commission regulation.


John Arthur Clark: Does the minister think he should have entire control in his appointments? Is he the man who should be the judge of who is to be employed?


Thomas Andrew Low: I would not ask to have the complete decision as to who should be accepted; but T think the minister, who is responsible to parliament and the people of the country, should have at least something to say in the selection of those trade agents who are sent abroad.


John Arthur Clark: The minister has power to refuse; he has power to lay off; he has power to reduce a first class trade commissioner to

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a fourth class trade commissioner, and so on. Just what additional power should he have?


Thomas Andrew Low: I think the minister should have the right to meet these applicants and should have some discretion as to the age limit. Of course, that is a regulation that is fixed by the Civil Service Commission. I agree, ho-wever, with the hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Hocken) that a man of thirty-five or forty years of age should not be barred from applying for a position as trade commissioner. On the other hand, I do not think a man who is under thirty-five should be barred. Many young men at twenty-five or twenty-eight have experience that is very valuable. There are, however, many men at forty years of age who would make first class trade commissioners abroad. I think the minister should be the judge largely; and if I had the decision I would say that the minister, being responsible to parliament and the country for the work of these trade commissioners, should have the selection of them. I have had some business experience, and I do not think I would care to allow the Civil Service Commission to select the man to represent me in the city of London, England. I usually select a man for his business experience. He certainly requires to have a good ground-work,-good education.


Arthur Meighen: I had nothing at all
immediately to do with framing the Civil Service Act or drawing up the regulations but. I do not think the minister is doing quite justice to the matter in his presentation of it to the committee. This appears to be a regulation of the commission; but if it was a regulation of the commission, it was submitted with the others to the government, considered by the special committee which had to do with it, submitted to parliament in the usual way and accepted bjr parliament as all these regulations must be. The matter was chiefly under the immediate supervision of a member of the government, now Chief Justice of the Exchequer Court of Canada, and I venture to say that if the minister will look into the history of the subject, especially if he will look into the discussion which took place on this phase and possibly into the evidence given,-for I would judge it likely that some was given before the Civil Service committee of this House of last session, certainly of previous sessions, and I would think, probably of last session-he will find much more of intelligent discussion of the question than any that he has initiated this evening. I venture also to say that he will find that other countries, perhaps not all, follow pretty
much the same regulation. I have an indistinct,-by no means a distinct-recollection of discussions of this subject in this House, and unless my memory is wrong-I do not claim it is right, because it is very indistinct-the British Civil Service follow the same rule. This is a regulation that was seriously recommended by a commission and accepted by parliament; if it was accepted by parliament it was certainly accepted with acclaim by all hon. gentlemen opposite who were in the House at the time; with all those regulations they were heartily in accord, and I would not like it to go out that this was done merely in a spirit of narrow prejudice against governments or parliaments and without that full consideration that such questions usually receive. There is far more to this question than the minister has revealed. I am pretty sure that the hon. member for Springfield (Mr. Hoey) is right, that a period of training is required, similar to what other countries require. To say that because the minister is responsible, therefore he must appoint, is merely to accept the whole patronage system and all that appertains to it. It may be there are some exceptions. I do not know just what they are in the Department of Trade and Commerce, and certainly I do not see why any special exception should be made of a junior trade commissioner or of any of these ordinary trade commissioners from the regular provisions of the act. The minister says that there must be some control. He has some control. He can look into the qualifications; he can examine any man who is sent to him; he can look into his history and record; he can put an absolute veto on any man, and this is very frequently done, not only before trial, but after trial. Surely that is some control. If some control means more than that, that means the minister appoints him, and the minister knows, if he was in any parliament under any government, and particularly under the one he is supporting, that appointees who are the consequence of that system are by no means a very creditable array.


Thomas Andrew Low: I am not criticising to-night those who made the regulations. The regulations were there when I took over the department; but I would like to submit this question to the leader of the opposition (Mr. Meighen). Does he think it would be wise to appoint a young man who had just graduated from Osgoode Hall to the Supreme Court of Canada? The same thing applies in this case, to my mind, and I look at it only from a practical business standpoint. I think a

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young man who has just graduated from Osgoode Hall might just as well be appointed to the Supreme Court of Canada as that a man who has just graduated from a university should be appointed as a trade commissioner abroad.


Robert James Manion: According to my best
knowledge, young men as a rule graduate from the universities very much under thirty-two; most of them graduate around twenty and twenty-two. So that they have from eight to ten or twelve years in which to study the duties of the office before they become junior trade commissioners. Can the minister give us a list of the trade commissioners whom we have in the various countries, together with their salaries? I do not think it would be a very long list and it would be interesting to the committee.


Robert Alexander Hoey: What is the length and what is the nature of the training that is required, before these men are sent abroad?


Thomas Andrew Low: Usually they remain in the
department about one year. But I do not think that my hon. friend would say that the training which a young man would receive in a department in the course of a year would constitute practical business experience. Regarding the request of my hon. friend (Mr. Manion), I shall be glad to put a list of the names on record in Hansard.


Robert James Manion: How many names are
there on the list?


Thomas Andrew Low: About thirty.


Arthur Meighen: Was this subject reviewed, or reported upon, by the committee of last session which was presided over by the hon. member for Bruce (Mr. Malcolm)?


Thomas Andrew Low: I do not know whether it was
specially commented upon.


Arthur Meighen: If the government was
of the minister's view would it not have been a wise course to have reviewed the matter then?


Thomas Andrew Low: I may remind my right hon.
friend that it was only last August that I took over the department.


Arthur Meighen: Apparently the minister's predecessors were not of the same views or prejudices as himself.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: The minister says he
has little responsibility in the matter of appointments. I take it however that he is responsible for the decision as to where these men shall be sent.


Thomas Andrew Low: The matter is one of promotion.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: That is not my question. Does the minister not decide to what countries the commissioners shall be sent?


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I have discussed this
matter with the minister before, particularly with reference to the reopening of the trade commissioner's office in Cuba. At one time we had in that country as trade commissioner one of the best business men in eastern Canada, but he was dismissed and his position was taken by a Cuban. The minister speaks of one man who had lived in Canada only one year. Well, this Cuban never had been in Canada at all and could speak very little English; yet he replaced as trade commissioner in Cuba one of our best Maritime business men. He knew nothing whatever of our country, but was appointed to take the place of a Canadian, as one of this Dominion's trade commissioners, in a place with which we do a large export trade, a trade that has 'been on the increase. But that is not all, for even this Cuban himself has been dismissed and I believe the office has been closed.


Thomas Andrew Low: The office has been closed, yes.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I understand that the
trade commissioner in Jamaica has supervision over the Cuban situation.


Thomas Andrew Low: That is right.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Before this item passes I shall ask the minister to give us the amount of Canada's exports to Jamaica and the amount of exports to Cuba, particularly to Havana where this trade commissioner was stationed. Cuba is our only market to-day for potatoes, and potatoes to us people in the Maritime provinces are what wheat is to the people in the West. Less than two years ago an embargo was imposed in Cuba on the import of potatoes from certain countries in which there prevailed a very destructive potato disease, and because we had no trade representative in Cuba with a knowledge of the Canadian situation, that injurious regulation was made to apply to this country as well. It was modified later on, so that today we can get our potatoes into Cuba upon complying with certain conditions. We have to have a plant pathologist in Canada certify that the potatoes are free from this disease, although as a matter of fact this particular disease has never existed in this country. I have urged upon the minister repeatedly the

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reappointment of a trade commissioner in Cuba, especially in view of the extent of our exports to that country, running into a good many millions a year from the province of New Brunswick alone. As I say, Cuba is our only export market for potatoes and our exporters are hampered by this restrictive regulation which the Cuban authorities have imposed; they must get a plant pathologist to certify that the potatoes are free from the disease and then they must obtain a certificate from the consul. It will readily be seen to what enormous trouble and inconvenience our shippers are subjected,-trouble and inconvenience which would be wholly unnecessary if we had in Cuba a trade commissioner such as the gentleman who held that position prior to the Cuban to whom I have referred. I am sorry I have not with me a letter which I have on my files at home, written by a former Minister of Trade and Commerce to this gentleman, Mr. Manzer, when he was trade commissioner in Cuba. Mr. Manzer was particularly interested in the potato export trade, having been a potato shipper himself before he took up the position of trade commissioner in Cuba, and he was able on a great many occasions to adjust differences between shippers in Canada and consignees in Cuba. A letter was addressed to him from a former Minister of Trade and Commerce-not the immediate predecessor of the present minister nor the one next preceding him, but a minister who held the office some time ago-in which Mr. Manzer was instructed to discontinue his activities in the interests of the potato export business; he was virtually told that he was to pay no attention to the interests of the potato exporters. Instead, the then minister urged him to devote his time and attention to securing a market for cheesecloth and another commodity on a par with it in importance; he was not to give any assistance to the exporters of potatoes. Now I submit that the trade commissioner in Jamaica most certainly is not able to exercise any sort of supervision over the business of exporting potatoes from Canada to Cuba, and I would strongly urge the minister to consider either removing the present commissioner in Jamaica and establishing him in Cuba, or appointing a new man in the latter place. I thoroughly agree with the remarks of the hon. member for Kings, P.E.I. (Mr. Hughes); I think we should have a man who has not only had experience in Canada but who knows precisely what this country has to export, a man who would be able to present that feature as forcibly and successfully as possible to the people in the country in which he represented us. That is a matter of great 146
importance, and I am anxious to have an answer from the minister; I want to know whether he will favourably consider reopening the office in Cuba.


Thomas Andrew Low: The matter is under consideration; it is a question of money. No definite decision has been reached yet, and it is altogether a question as to what degree we should extend our offices.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I am not by any means asking the minister to spend money for the purpose of extending the activities of the department into new fields; I simply want him to reopen an office which has already done good work and which is highly important to the people of the Maritime provinces. I trust he will not delay the matter too long. I have been urging him to do something ever since he has assumed office, just as I did in the time of his predecessor.


Donald Sutherland: I asked the minister a little while ago whether there was an agent at Havana. I notice by the Auditor General's report that there is.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: That was two years
ago. There is none now.


Thomas Andrew Low: No.


Pius Michaud: Some time ago I received several letters from Mr. Manzer and other persons regarding the business interests of this country in Cuba. Judging by the extent of our exports to that country it seems to me that we ought to have a representative, one of our own business men at Havana. I understand that some three or four years ago Mr. Manzer was dismissed and a man of whom we knew little if anything was appointed to take his place. I understand he is doing the best he can, but he does not really represent Canadian sentiment and does not know anything in relation to our trade and commerce.


Lewis Herbert Martell: WTho is the trade commissioner at Singapore? When was he transferred from Bristol? What does he know of the industries of Canada? And what are his qualifications to represent Canada and tell the people of Singapore what we have to export?


Thomas Andrew Low: A. B. Muddiman. I do not know when he was transferred to Singapore, but I shall be very glad to secure the information for my hon. friend.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: What was the name of the last agent who was regularly stationed in Cuba? And had he ever resided in Canada?



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Thomas Andrew Low: J. C. Manzer. I cannot say whether he ever resided in Canada.


Arthur Meighen: Why was the Cuban office closed? Really at first sight it does seem strange that we have not agent there.


Thomas Andrew Low: It was decided to handle the business through the office at Jamaica.


Arthur Meighen: Who decided that?


Thomas Andrew Low: The agent in Cuba was let out before I took office.


Mr. LOGAN:: Mr. Chairman, this probably is about the most important matter we have discussed this session, not even excepting the budget-because after all the budget did not make many changes. I look upon the present system of appointments to trade commission-erships as an absolute farce, and the sooner that we as business men representing the taxpayers take this matter in hand and back up the minister in his efforts the better it is going to be for Canada, and particularly for the maritime parts of Canada, west as well as east. I have every confidence in the minister as a business man, and I can quite appreciate that he sees the farce himself as he sits in his office trying to do business with the world under present conditions.
Let me give the committee some personal experiences. I am very much interested in Canadian trade with the south, particularly from the Maritime provinces. I do not believe that we can ever build up in the Maritime provinces a great trade with central Canada on account of the excessive freight rates; but we have a market to the south of us reached by the cheapest transportation in the world, where trade is beckoning to us. Last winter I spent some time looking over the situation there. Unfortunately I was not able to go to many of the places which I most desired to visit, but I went far enough to see that the conditions should be remedied.
I went to Nassau in the Bahama islands, three hundred in number, doing a tremendous trade with the Old Country and with the United States. I called at the Royal Bank and inquired about our representative. Allow me to say just here, Mr. Chairman, that while we have been laggard in our duty as a parliament in developing Canadian export trade, we owe a great deal to the banks of this country for' going to the West India islands and to the South American countries and developing a great business and advertising Canada. This applies particularly to the Royal Bank which I think has ninety branches south of Bermuda. I inquired, as I say, for our trade commissioner in Nassau. I was told: "There used to be one, there is none now." This does not look like progress to me. I asked how we 
were represented in the Bahama islands, and was informed: By an agent away around in Kingston, Jamaica. They had never seen him, they did not know his name, but they thought he was there. Now, Mr. Chairman, having had experience of travel you can appreciate the difficulties that lie in the way of the people in Nassau dealing with a commissioner in Jamaica, because it takes four long days and-nights to get from Nassau to Kingston-it is almost as bad as going across the Atlantic. Next there is the great island of Cuba, of which my friend from Victoria and Carleton (Mr. Caldwell) has spoken. I looked at the trade returns and found that even without a trade agent-although much of this trade was worked up by the former trade agent- our trade in 1923 amounted to nearly sixteen million dollars. What could we do if we had a proper trade agent to look after our business with that country? When the railway estimates are brought forward I propose to make a few remarks with reference to the Government Mercantile Marine, so for the present I will confine my attention to the Trade and Commerce department. I inquired for our trade commissioner. I was informed: We formerly had one, but we have not got one now. We are going backwards, Sir, instead of forward in seeking trade in that southern island. We should have agents in Havana, in North Cuba and in Santiago, in South Cuba, looking after our trade with that wonderful land. The other day I was examining the trade between that country and the United States, and comparing it with our Cuban trade. Ours is simply a bagatelle. I passed by Haiti, where last year even without a trade agent we did a considerable trade. Then I proceeded along the island of San Domingo, from which last year we imported $9,600,000 worth of goods and exported over $6,000,000 worth. That was without a trade agent-no one looking after the business. Everybody tells me in that country our business could be doubled and trebled if we had some one to look after our interests. We have spent $70,000,000- in providing a. mercantile marine, and we are losing in actual operation nearly $8,000,000 annually. Yet there is an island where our ships do not even call. I went on to Kingston, Jamaica, and inquired for our trade commissioner. I was told that his office was down in a back street, but I could not find it. I looked up the main street and saw the flag of the United States clearly indicating where their agency was. Finally I went to a friend of mine, the manager of the Royal Bank and said to him: Can you tell me where the trade agency of our country is in Jamaica? He sent one of

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his staff to accompany me to the agency. I found it in an old miserable broken-down warehouse in a back street. I climbed up a flight of rickety stairs that I thought would break under my weight, and finally reached a loft, where with scarcely light in day time, and no electric light at night, I found our representative.


Harry Leader: Was not the flag flying?


Hance James Logan: Flag nothing! In this British colony, the people are even more British than we are, intensely British. They do not like the United States but are compelled to trade with them. They love Canadians and desire to trade with us. This was the office of this great country in that magnificent island with all its great trade possibilities! I noticed in a Jamaica paper recently that one American concern has recently added three new twenty-thousand-ton ships to its fleet to take -care of its trade with Jamaica while we are represented there by a man in a loft, dimly lighted by day and in utter darkness at night. Our representative is a gentleman, an Old Country solicitor, and I have no doubt he is a very able man in his own profession. I was told he was a gold medalist of Edinburgh university. He came out to Canada, went to some town in the western country, to practise, and finally secured a position in Winnipeg, I think in the attorney general's office. He saw an advertisement of the Civil Service Commission calling for applications for a trade commissionership, took the examination-why, he could examine the examiners-and passed the examination, I have no doubt, with flying colours. But how in the name of Heaven can the training of the University of Edinburgh be of use to a man down in that country in the selling of Canadian goods to build- up Canadian trade? He may know all the classics that are taught; he may be a mathematician of the highest degree, but if he does not know how to increase Canadian trade, if he does not know Canadian conditions, he is not of much use to us down there. I do not like to attack this man, because he is a creature of circumstances; it is not his fault. I am bound to say that he is doing the best he can, but any one who was with him for half a day would know that he does not know Canada.


Donald Sutherland: Has he -not two
assistants?


Hance James Logan: No.


Donald Sutherland: The Auditor General's report states that he has two assistants and a messenger.
146i


Hance James Logan: He has a young man in the office, a native of Jamaica, if I mistake not. He has not two assistants and a messenger. That may have been the case under a former commissioner but I know it is not the case now, for I was in and out repeatedly. Would any sensible manufacturer who wanted to sell goods in Jamaica-and after all, that is what we are trying to do; we are trying to build up trade; it is not particularly a diplomatic position-send to that country a man who, even if he was a graduate of Edinburgh university, had never had a single day's training in trade in Canada? Why, it is a farce, and the sooner we stop the better. I made up my mind that if I ever got back to this parliament I would raise my voice in protest against this expenditure of public money which is bringing no return and cannot bring returns because the men who represent us have not the	necessary qualifications.
Mark you, Mr. Chairman, this gentleman up in that loft down in	Kingston,
Jamaica, not only represents this country in that magnificent island with its million inhabitants but represents it also in Cuba, in the Bahama islands, in San Domingo, in Haiti, and in British Honduras. He represents all the countries in Central America and I do not know how many others. Why, he could not go over his territory properly in two years if he travelled all the time. He is trying to deal with five million people, scattered, one might almost say, over half a continent, and yet we expect to get trade, and we expect the Canadian merchant marine to pay. The whole thing should be condemned; the whole service should be reorganized. I am not blaming anybody; I do. not know who organized it in the first place,, but I do know that it is not properly organized now.
There is a wonderful trade in that southern country. I have some figures here-I will not detain the committee by giving them-showing the possibilities of that trade. It is the hope of eastern Canada at any rate, but we shall never secure the results we desire unless we put down there bright active men who know what goods are, not merely professional men.	,
The hon. member (Mr. Caldwell) has referred to Cuba. I believe that in Cuba there is one of the greatest fields for Canadian trade that can be found in the southern countries, but we have no one there. In the boat I fell into conversation with an English traveller- many of them down there-and I said to him "How is business?" He said, "good; we are getting it all back. We lost it during the

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war but we have already got back at least 80 per cent of it." They will get it back; do not make any mistake about that. In the course of conversation he said. "What is the matter with you Canadians? Why do you not try to develop trade down there? I visit these islands and I find in each of them an American consul- really a trade agent, really a commercial traveller for the United States; I find in every commercial house American catalogues and price lists up to date, telegrams showing the fluctuations in prices, and so on. But I never see Canadian catalogues nor price lists. There seem to be no Canadian agents down here; where are they?"
Now, I say to the Minister of Trade and Commerce this is a most important matter and instead of increasing this vote by a paltry $4,000 or $5,000 the amount of it should at least be doubled and an up-to-date business man, not a doctor or a lawyer or a preacher- an up-to-date commercial traveller should be sent to Nassau, to Cuba-not only at Havana but also at Santiago; to San Domingo, that wonderful negro republic; to Haiti, to Porto Rico and to Jamaica.
So much for the western islands; let us now go from Bermuda out to the eastward. WThat do we find? A country in which the Royal Bank of Canada, if I mistake not, has about twenty flourishing agencies carrying on business and reporting most favourably to their head office in this country. These islands include a very large area. Four days after you leave Bermuda you get to St. Kitts; then you pass on to Antigua, Barbados, Trinidad, then away down to Demerara. But in all that country, the different parts of which can only be reached by eight days' travel from Bermuda there was only one Canadian trade agent, located in Barbados, and now that office has been closed and the minister has sent down to Trinidad an official from his department who, I believe, knows no more about the trade of the West India country than I know about a pharmacy, and that is not much. Why, if the thing is a farce down Jamaica way, in this other area to which I have referred, diown the Windward and Leeward islands, it is a double comedy. We are trying to create business; we are not only sending our Canadian merchant marine down to those islands maintaining vessels that are going up and down like chips on the water, without cargo, but we are subsidizing the Royal Mail line to the extent of nearly $400,000 annually to go into that country where we have not a single man properly qualified to secure trade for Canada.

Now, Mr. Chairman, I am not attacking the present minister. I am very thankful he is in his present position. We have had doctrinaires long enough in the Trade and Commerce department; we have had worn-out politicians there long enough. The department has ceased to be an asylum for men who have served their country and their party, and it is now under the control, so far as he can control it, of a man who. as all the business men of Canada know, is a first class business man, and all I ask parliament to do is to give the minister practically the same power over the great trade of that country that he would have if he were sending out his own travellers, as he does send them out from his manufactories in the city of Renfrew. One only needs to visit these countries to see the farce of the conditions I am portraying here to-night; I am not overdrawing them in the slightest respect. I had no idea before going there of the trade possibilities, but when I saw them and talked to the people there who wanted to trade with us, when I found we were not even taking the trade that was offered to us, when I found we did not have the agents there to secure the trade, I came back determined to make parliament acquainted with the condition of affairs as they exist.
Let me speak of one other small matter, and this I think ought to be remedied by the minister. Even this trade agent in Kingston, Jamaica, has not got sufficient power. I said to him, after having travelled over the island and visited different parts:	"You
want to get out and go all over this island as soon as you can, and get acquainted with the exporters and importers." "Well," he said, "I have made application to the department to go over to the other side of the island." "Oh, you have made application to the department" "Yes," he said. Now, hon. gentlemen who have been down there know that it takes two weeks to get a letter from Jamaica up here, and two weeks more to get an answer back, but the trade agent in Kingston, if he heard of a big lot of business in, say, Port Antonio, about 75 miles away, could not go there unless somebody in the Trade and Commerce department gave him permission to go. He is presiding over a trade agency in a country that, as I said before, is almost as extensive as an empire, and that is all the power he has got! I can quite appreciate if you let trade agents gc hither and thither, and run up a lot of travelling expenses it might become a seriom matter, but I think the time has come when we should have trade agents in whom we

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could have sufficient confidence to believe they would not incur travelling expenses unless absolutely necessary. But I repeat that agent, if he heard of business he could pick up 75 miles away, could not go and look into it without first receiving permission from some clerk in the Trade and Commerce department here. Well, that becomes a double-headed farce.


Donald Sutherland: I am a little surprised at the manner in which the hon. member has criticized the trade agents. He ended up by pointing out that they had absolutely no control over their own movements.


Hance James Logan: May I be permitted to say
that I have not attacked any trade agent. I did not attack the trade agent in Kingston, Jamaica; I said that he was a creature of circumstances.	I am attacking the way
they are appointed, namely, by passing a civil service examination, and without having had any experience in business.


Donald Sutherland: I may have misunderstood my hon. friend, but a little earlier in his address I understood him to say that this man was a graduate of Edinburgh university and was possibly qualified to examine the examiners of the Civil Service Commission. but that he was not a competent man for a trade agent.


Hance James Logan: That is not attacking him.


Donald Sutherland: I do not want to be understood as criticizing in any way the expansion of our trade and commerce. I think that is a matter that is deserving of the utmost attention on the part of the government. I do, however, wish to point out that Jhe discussion so far, particularly from hon. members behind the minister, has led up to a certain point; they have absolute confidence in the minister's ability to appoint competent agents, and I am inclined to think that every member in the House would have that same confidence in the minister if he had a free hand in the matter; but I can also imagine how free his hand would be when I hear hon. gentlemen behind him denouncing the Civil Service Commission and clamouring for the old system of political patronage. The pressure would become so great that I am afraid even the Minister of Trade and Commerce would be inclined to give way and allow certain things to be done that he did not feel inclined to do himself. We all realize what was taking place in this country a few years ago when the political patronage' system was in vogue, and before these appointments came under the Civil Service Commission.
I do not think it is a crime to be thirty-two years of age, providing the agent is qualified and has lots of energy and vigour. In fact, it is men of that age that business concerns all over this country are anxious to pick up to-day. I have no doubt that the age qualification may prevent the department from getting some very useful men, but I am inclined to think that if you get the right man at thirty-two years of age he will render splendid service to this country in the years that follow. I have a very vivid recollection of some of the appointments that were made in the years gone by, of some political hacks who had no earthly means of obtaining an existence in this country being appointed to responsible positions abroad, and I believe that brought greater discredit upon the government responsible for that condition of affairs than anything else I know of. Some of these men were sent to China, some to the Old Country and other parts of the world. It was that system that was in no small measure responsible for bringing government appointments under the Civil Service Commission. I am not going to condemn or uphold the Civil Service Commission but there has to be somebody somewhere to stand between this clamour for political patronage and the rights of the ' people of this country, and we may just as well realize that first as last.
The hon. member for King's, P.E.I. (Mr. Hughes) criticized an appointment that had been made to Newfoundland on behalf, he said, of the Maritime provinces. Now these trade agents are not appointed on behalf of any particular province, but to represent the whole Dominion of Canada in the country to which they go, and if the party to whom he referred did come from the province of Ontario, I do not think that that is anything against him. The hon. member says that this man did not know the difference between a codfish and a herring, but he may have known a great many other things, and I have no doubt that he would learn even that in a week in Newfoundland. So, after all, there is not so very much back of the criticism.
The hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan) would lead us to believe that there were no trade representatives in Cuba and the West Indies, but I notice from the Auditor General's report that there are four of five down there, and that the trade agent at Kingston has two assistants and a messenger. That is up to March 31, 1923; there may have been dismissals since then. The hon. member also admitted that this country was doing a tremendous business I think he said $17,000,000 worth, with these countries, so those agents down there must be doing some

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good. Do not let us attack every one who is in the service, just because this government has not had the privilege of making the appointments. Even though the appointments have been made by the Civil Service Commission, the minister, as has already been pointed out, exercises a good deal of control in examining them; and he does not need to accept them unless he is assured they are competent for the position. Some regulations must be maintained, and if we had a minister who was free from the pressure of his supporters, with the business ability which my hon. friend undoubtedly has, I have no doubt that he could pick up good men for these positions; but it does not follow that that would always be the case.


George Perry Graham: The government might
change.


Donald Sutherland: The Minister of
Agriculture has been clamouring for the right to make a'll appointments in his department: other ministers have been doing the same thing, and hon. members will see where it would end. If the Minister of Trade and Commerce were granted the right to make his own appointments, every member of the government would want this same right. They would say, "Look what the Department of Trade and Commerce is doing; we must have that right". We would get back to the old condition of affaire and every old political hack in this country would be appealing to the government for some appointment. I think the position is untenable. As has been pointed out by the hon. member for Cumberland, if these agents are so hampered and restricted in their operation that they cannot render good service, that is a matter for the minister to look after, to see that they are given the liberty to carry out what they think is in the interests of the country-. I do not believe there is anything to be gained by condemning the system; if the system is not right we must make it right. But to say that we must discard the system and go back to the old condition is a proposition the people of the country will not tolerate for one minute.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: The constant attacks which
I hear from time to time on the Civil Service Commission in this House induces me to make some observations in connection with the method of appointment to these particular positions of trade commissioners. If I understand the situation correctly, and if my information is correct, the qualifications of prospective trade commissioners are agreed upon between a representative of the Trade and Commerce department, and a represen-

tativ-e of the Civil Service Commission. Public notices are then posted and applications are made, ratings are given, or possibly examinations are held, and the candidates who have presented themselves who seem most 'likdly to be suitable for the vacant positions, are called before an advisory council consisting of a representative of the department, a representative of the Civil Service Commission, and a representative of the soldiers' organizations, the latter merely for the purpose of seeing that the rule with regard to soldier priority is maintained, and in addition leading representatives of business life in Canada are called in. This advisory council examines these applicants, ascertains their business experience and knowledge, and then makes a recommendation to the commission as to the most suitable man. Then that particular candidate who may be selected is given training in the department for a period, I believe, of from one year to one year and a half. If I am correctly informed he is trained not only in one branch, but acquires a general knowledge of all branches and upon the completion of his training to the satisfaction of the minister he is eligible for appointment as trade commissioner. That is the situation with regard to training, and that is the opportunity for testing out these particular individuals who may be applicants for the position. Not only is that the situation, but, in addition to that, the matter of whether or not the man gets an appointment in the service-


Hance James Logan: Who gives the training?


Joseph Tweed Shaw: The Department of Trade
and Commerce.
Mr. ^OGAN: Does the hon. member know who really does the training in reference to trade matters?


Joseph Tweed Shaw: I am sure the minister can
tell us, but I take it that in every branch of the department these men are under the constant supervision of superiors who should be familiar with the requirements of the foreign offices.


Thomas Andrew Low: The training is given by an
officer who has been appointed under the system by the Civil Service Commission.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: Does the minister suggest
that the officers appointed by that commission are inefficient for the task? If he does, all I have to say is that the power of dismissal rests, not in the hands of the Civil Service Commission, but in the hands of the minister. Not only is +he power of appoint-

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ment in the hands of the minister, but the power of dismissal is in the hands of the minister.


Thomas Andrew Low: The power of appointment is
not in the hands of the minister.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: The minister must accept the appointment. I am simply outlining this matter because I think in fairness to the merit system the facts should be made known.


James Joseph Hughes: There is no merit in that.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: It would have been easy
for the hon. member for King's, P.E.I. (Mr. Hughes) to make that statement before the Civil Service committee last year. He had ample opportunity on that occasion, but he was not able, nor was any individual member of the committee able, to bring to the attention of the committee a single case in which it could even be suggested that the Civil Service Commission had neglected its duty in any particular. That is a fact and I challenge contradiction-


James Joseph Hughes: I wish to say that there
was so much irrelevant matter brought before that committee that I simply refused to attend it.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: It was easy for the hon.
member-	'


James Joseph Hughes: And it was largely due
to my hon. friend from West Calgary (Mr. Shaw).


Joseph Tweed Shaw: -when he was discomfited to keep away from the committee, but that does not justify his action nevertheless in my humble judgment. There may be difficulties in connection with the working of the Civil Service Commission, I am not defending them if they are guilty of any wrongdoing, but I say that so far as the people of Canada are concerned I am convinced at least that they are substantially in accord with the merit system. They want to see that principle upheld and maintained. Not only that, but I believe that the civil servants themselves are satisfied that that is the proper principle to apply. Not only did this committee last year to which my hon. friend refers, find that that was a vital principle to maintain, but in addition to that they held that we should have some independent body to look after this matter of finding out the most capable persons to fill positions, in order to see that political and personal considerations were totally disregarded in all appointments. Under those circumstances, not knowing whether the trade agents are
appointed under the old system, not knowing whether they are appointed by reason of the Civil Service Act, one cannot say as to their particular qualifications, and I am certainly sure that little has been shown to-night that would justify anybody in suggesting that the method of appointing trade commissioners is either inadequate or that it has not merit.
I understand the minister to say that these qualification rules which are established provide an age limit of thirty-two. I would like the minister to investigate into the salaries paid these trade commissioners and tell the House if he thinks that, with the salaries provided, he is going to get successful business men like himself to live down in a hot climate like Cuba? I think it is entirely out of the question. I think adequate salaries should be paid, andl I am satisfied that with the system which the Civil Service Commission provides proper and competent representatives can be secured if such adequate salaries are paid.


Arthur Meighen: I am very much in
accord with the remarks of my hon. friend from West Calgary (Mr. Shaw) but the reason I rise now particularly is to 'ask, why is it that, in the face of these constant complaints about the system, the government does not take its courage in its hands and propose a change? Why are we treated to these whinings every, year about the awful restraint under which they labour? They cannot govern the country, they cannot change this and cannot change that; they are tied hand and foot, chained down and helpless. Let them come to parliament and submit their policy. Deputations from boards of trade come to Ottawa, go before the Prime Minister and beg for economy, and the Prime Minister tells them, "I cannot economize; there is that awful Civil Service Commission. Look at the law which places it all in their hands. In this way I am tied hand and foot," thus leading them to believe the Civil Service Commission were dictating salaries and everything, that it was superseding parliament and that the government could not escape from its chains no matter how it struggled. But all the Prime Minister has to do, if he does not like it, is to come to parliament, take his courage in his hands and propose a change. The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Motherwell), with all his beneficent designs for the country, is thwarted by that hostile Civil Service Commission, and if it were not for that commission he could lift agriculture into the seventh heaven. The Minister of Trade and Commerce says

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to-night: I cannot do anything; here is this Civil Service Act. If the government want to change the act, let them come, to parliament, take the responsibility, propose the change, and do not let us hear this whine session after session, trying to load upon someone else the responsibility that now is theirs and that they and they alone can discharge.


James Alexander Robb: My right hon. friend had the courage at one time and was attempting to change the acc, but he withdrew the bill.


Arthur Meighen: But I was not whining.
I came to parliament and asked for it. I submitted jt to a committee and what the committee recommended, we did. We did no more. The hon. gentlemen submitted a change to a committee; the committee brought in a report which was completely antagonistic to all their claims and complaints to-night, and still they come back and try to throw on a commission and on an act of another government the responsibility for their own failure.


Thomas Andrew Low: I am not given to whining, but I find the conditions here and I .am simply explaining them to parliament. I am not whining about anything at all.


Arthur Meighen: Propose a change.


Thomas Andrew Low: I am not suggesting a change
to-night.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I am not rising to discuss the merits or demerits of the Civil Service Commission. I should, however, like to make one or two practical suggestions to the minister with regard to, not only the appointment of a trade commissioner to Cuba, but some other things I think he should take up for the benefit of the export trade of Canada when he is appointed. Possibly I would go a little further and urge that the minister should take this matter up himself, because I do not think a trade commissioner would have authority to do something, I would like to have done, that is, to arrange for some measure of reciprocity between Cuba and Canada. We have arranged reciprocity agreements with countries with which we do very little business. As I pointed out before, Cuba is to-day our only market for potatoes. Our ships go there loaded wTith potatoes and come back loaded with raw sugar. In view of the extremely high price of sugar at the present time, we might very well arrange for some reciprocity agreement with Cuba for a freer exchange of potatoes and sugar, because at the present time the United States has a preference over us in the duty on potatoes of 
about twelve cents a bag, which is quite an item when the margin is so very close as it is to the potato grower. I hope the minister will make a note of this, not forget it and not keep it under consideration too long. I hope he will not keep it under consideration as long as he has the appointment of a trade commissioner to Cuba. He should appoint to Cuba, the best man he can get, and he should also give his personal attention to the matter I have just suggested, that is a measure of reciprocity with Cuba.


James Joseph Hughes: It is very unfortunate that a matter of this kind, that is a purely business question, cannot be discussed in this committee or in this House without party politics being brought in. I regret very much that the leader cf the opposition (Mr. Meighen), not only to-night, but on former occasions, and particularly to-night when there was no reason for giving the discussion that turn, should see fit to speak in the way he has. I made no attack on the Civil Service Commission beyond this particular question. I presume that the Civil Service Commission is capable of doing good work, of filling an important position in the country; but it is not capable, judging by results, of appointing trade commissioners, and it is hardly probable that we can get practical, useful, experienced trade commissioners under the system now established. The results show that. I wTas a little disappointed at the remarks made by the hon. member for West Calgary (Mr. Shaw), who knows a good deal about actual conditions of the Civil Service Commission. Under ordinary circumstances, for some positions, I believe the merit system, the system adopted by the Civil Service Commission and the examinations held by them, would give good results; but surely the hon. member for West Calgary will see that we cannot get results with regard to this question from the Civil Service Commission under present conditions.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: Why not?


James Joseph Hughes: Because the best trade commissioner that could be sent from Canada to the West Indian islands or to Cuba, might be a man who could not pass the Civil Service examination at all, who would have no chance of being appointed under the present system. If my hon. friend were a business man, I think he wrould realise that.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


James Joseph Hughes: I presume he is a capable lawyer, a capable man.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: Do not make any violent assumptions.

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James Joseph Hughes: If he is not a capable man, a capable lawyer, I am sorry. I would presume thait much. I will agree with one remark made by the hon. member for West Calgary, that is that it would be practically impossible to get men engaged in active business to accept the salaries that are paid to trade commissioners. The salaries ought to be increased in order to get good, suitable men, because if you cannot get good, capable men, there is no use in appointing any one at all. The men who might be obtained would be men above forty years of age, suitable, practical, capable men, men who are advanced somewhat in years, who have perhaps, retired from active business, who have had wide experience and who would be ready to take a trip and a position of that kind for a few years. They are, in my opinion, the Very best men that could be appointed.


Leon Johnson Ladner: How much would you
have to pay such a man?


James Joseph Hughes: I do not know, but that man would take a smaller salary than a man about forty years of age who was engaged in active business, and he would be just as suitable and-capable at fifty years of age. The experience he had gained in his own business would be of great value to him. Another thing that should be taken into account in appointing a trade commissioner is that he should have experience in the business of the part of Canada that he represents. For instance, if a trade commissioner were sent to the West Indian islands or Cuba where probably seven-eighths of the business is carried on with the Maritime provinces, then a Maritime province man should be selected, who is especially acquainted with the business of that part of Canada. If he is wanted to represent business in which Ontario or western Canada is chiefly interested. he should be a man from that part of Canada. It is results that we should look for. American consuls in different countries are, I think, really trade commissioners; they are generally men somewhat advanced in years, while the tendency in this country is to send boys. It is no crime to be a young man, or to have a diploma from a university or to be a graduate from a university; but keep those men in the position for which they are qualified. In a large place, one of those young men might very well be 'an assistant, and in time to come, he might prove very useful. But I do want to repeat the observation so well made by the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan). What man of common sense in this country would imagine that a
graduate from Edinburgh university who went to Winnipeg and was not a success at law, although perhaps useful in other respects, could be of any use at all in Cuba as a trade commissioner? That is the kind of result you get under the present system. I do not, want the leader of the opposition or anybody ellse to say that we are attacking the Civil Service Commission. I am not doing so at all events, but I repeat the statement that under the present system it is a farce for the Civil Service Commission to make appointments in this particular work. It is ridiculous and is a waste of money.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I asked the minister
some time ago to give us the exports and imports between Canada and Cuba on the one hand and Canada and Jamaica on the other.


Thomas Andrew Low: The exports to Cuba last year amounted to $5,816,568 and the imports $8,992,490. That was for eleven months ending February 1924. In the case of Jamaica the exports amounted to $2,793,387 and the imports $2,949,232.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Of what did the imports and exports chiefly consist, between Canada and Cuba?


Thomas Andrew Low: I have not the details. The hon. member for West Calgary (Mr. Shaw) asked me whether I thought that the trade agents were paid an adequate salary. I can only say that in this case also the salaries are fixed by the Civil Service Commission, so that I have very little say in the matter. The hon. member expressed the view that a university graduate with a year's training in the -department was sufficiently equipped for the position of trade commissioner. I know that my hon. friend is recognized as one of the leaders of the bar in his province, and I would ask him the same question that I asked the leader of the opposition some time ago: does he think that a graduate from a law school, after a year's experience in a law office, would make a good judge for one of the high courts of the country? The hypothesis is analogous to the present case.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: In view of the fact
that, as the figures which the minister has given show, our trade with Cuba is so much greater than it is with Jamaica, what excuse is there for the transference of the trade commissioner from Cuba to Jamaica? I venture to say that the trade between Canada and Cuba is capable of far more development than the trade with Jamaica, and the exports from this country to Cuba consist chiefly of potatoes while the imports from Cuba are made up almost entirely of sugar. I would

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impress upon the minister once more the necessity for the appointment of a trade commissioner in Cuba.
Mr. LeSUEUR:	We have this evening
heard a great many remarks about the inefficiency or the incompetency of our trade commissioners, and the blame has been placed upon the Civil Service Commission. I have failed however to see any specific statements or any specific proof which would connect these two things. If you are going to judge of the appointments made by the Civil Service Commission, of the efficiency of trade commissioners, or of the regulations under which the Civil Service Commission appoints these men, your first study must be of the duties which the commissioners are expected to perform. I ask the committee, what are the duties which Canadian trade commissioners in foreign countries are called upon to discharge? In the first place, they are supposed to have a fairly accurate knowledge of the products and manufactures of Canada which will be suitable to the particular country in which they are representing us. In the second place, I would assume that they would be expected to mix with the people of that country, to get acquainted with the buyers there, and then to supply them with the necessary information regarding Canadian products and manufactures. Furthermore, a very essential thing is that they should be men of address and of a certain culture who can become acquainted and stand in with those with whom they do business. These commissioners require very different qualifications from the mere ability to sell goods in Canada for a particular industry. The situation is absolutely different: it requires intelligence, a general knowledge of the products and manufactures of this country-although not a detailed knowledge of any particular line-and then energy and push, along with a certain address so that these men may be able to ingratiate themselves into the esteem of the people of the country in which they represent Canada. If, as I believe, these are the qualifications, then the remarks of the hon. member for West Calgary are very pertinent, and the investigation and examinations which he shows that the Civil Service Commission makes are indispensable to the choice of men suited for the business. I have been personally in very close touch with the commercial attaches of the United States, and with the representatives of Great Britain, in a great many of the southern countries; I know the duties which they are expected to perform, and I know that these are the qualifications which they require. When we speak of choosing a

man at the age of thirty-two we must remember that this is the age that is set for entering the service. A man is not supposed to enter the service one year and go out the next; he expects, I presume, to be entering upon a career. Such a man believes that he will ascend in the service, and naturally after having trained in the department for a year and a half or two yearn, during which time he has got acquainted with Canadian conditions generally, he goes abroad and takes a minor post and gets experience in his new location. At thirty-two a man's mind is plastic, his nature is not set, and he adapts himself to people more or less easily. Then, again, the psychology of the people in these foreign countries in which our trade commissioners represent us is entirely different from that of our own people; and it has been the experience of a great many of our manufacturers and our big business concerns that the travellers who have been sent out from Canada and the United States do not make the success in those countries which they achieve here for the simple reason that they do not understand the people. A man of thirty-two has certainly been out of college several years, and there is no reason to doubt that he has acquired a certain amount of experience.


Thomas Andrew Low: Does the hon. member think
that a man of forty should be barred?
Mr. LeSUEUR: I was coming to that. I was saying that a man of thirty-two is plastic in mind, and he can more easily get into close touch with the people of a new country and better understand them than can an older man. Now, a successful business man at forty is not likely to be jumping into a trade com-missionership. The man of forty who seeks such a position does so because he has been a failure in business or for reasons of health, but in any event he is not seeking it as a career. If thirty-two is too inelastic an age limit, why not change the regulations? But I am putting that forward as the possible reason for the limit. As regards the Civil Service Commission, I do not see why they are not completely fitted to choose men with those qualifications. If our trade commissioners are not giving effective service, I believe it is due to the instructions they receive or to the way they are handled. As the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan) very properly said, they are tied down too strictly, they have not sufficient freedom. A trade commissioner who cannot move out of his office to get after business when he sees it, who cannot spend a certain amount of money in maintaining his status and getting in touch with

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people, cannot of course be expected to secm-e results. It is the system and the organization surrounding trade commissioners more than their selection and appointment that I believe is at fault, if fault there be.


Harry Leader: Mr. Chairman, I rise to correct an impression that possibly might grow out of the remarks made by the hon. member for Cumberland and the hon. member who has just taken his seat, to the effect that a certain trade commissioner was not allowed to travel over his constituency, as it were, without authority from the Civil Service Commission at Ottawa. That may be true in an isolated case, but as a matter of information I propose to give the committee a few items which I have taken from the Auditor General's report during the last few minutes. I find the following set out as the travelling expenses incurred by our trade commissioners overseas; $467; $336; $1,357; $4,057; $1,031; $2,085; $352; $271; $397; $2,846; $2,918; $1,636; $2,791; $2,472; $1,230;	$424;	$13,809. They total
approximately $40,000. Evidently some of these trade commissioners have been stepping out.


Oliver Robert Gould: How many trade commissioners are representing Canada in the central states of the United States?


Thomas Andrew Low: We have only one trade commissioner in the United States. He is located in New York.


Oliver Robert Gould: Our trade commissioners over there seemingly have lost the market for us in cereals in that we have now to overcome a forty-two cent per bushel duty on our wheat. I do not know whether that reflects upon the hon. gentleman in that he was an appointee of the former administration, but we, in common with practically all countries, erect tariff barriers and then appoint trade commissioners to regain the trade which we have obstructed by these artificial barriers. I merely interject this remark to emphasize how unnatural it is that we should incur expense to undo the very thing we have done.


Mr. EVANS:: Are these trade agents appointed to furnish information to the Customs department?


Thomas Andrew Low: No, but I am sure they would be very glad to furnish any information that the Customs department might ask for.


John Evans: Are they used specifically
for that purpose?


Thomas Andrew Low: No, they are not.


Leon Johnson Ladner: In view of the varied conceptions of what trade commissioners are supposed to do, perhaps the minister as head of the department can tell the committee precisely what are the functions of a trade commissioner?


Thomas Andrew Low: To my mind a trade commissioner is simply a glorified salesman.


Leon Johnson Ladner: With all due respect and
humility, I submit that the minister has an entire misconception of- what a trade commissioner is. Like my hon. friend from Cumberland, I have done some travelling, and I have found that the British trade representatives in Italy and the other countries of Europe do not regard themselves as glorified salesmen. A trade commissioner cannot possibly be a salesman because he cannot be expected to have specific knowledge of every article manufactured in any country. My conception of his function is that he brings in contact the people of one country wishing to do business with the people in another country, and then their respective experts do the actual business. If the minister is of opinion that a trade commissioner is a glorified salesman it is little wonder that he and his followers are disappointed with the results obtained and wish to institute some kind of patronage system in connection with the appointment of these commissioners. I think the committee will be disappointed in the minister's conception.


Hance James Logan: The hon. gentleman apparently does not understand anything whatever about the functions of a trade commissioner of this country whom he is mixing up with consular agents and ambassadors. As the minister says, our trade commissioners are men sent to secure trade. When any of our trade commissioners are 'brought back, to Canada from time to time, as Mr. Ross is just now, they visit our manufacturing centres and get in touch with our manufacturers to see what they have to sell. In the Commercial Intelligence, published by the department, will be found a list of articles which any particular country desires to buy or sell.	-


Leon Johnson Ladner: Does the hon. gentleman
know the functions of a British trade representative in foreign countries?


Hance James Logan: Yes.


Leon Johnson Ladner: Does he assist there as a
salesman?


Hance James Logan: No. But conditions are entirely different in Europe from what they are in the West Indies. We are endeavouring to secure trade between buyer and seller, and our trade commissioners come between the two.

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Leon Johnson Ladner: Does the hon. member suggest that the manufacturer of a special line of machinery in Canada would send to our trade commissioner in Cuba and get him to sell that machinery?


Hance James Logan: Why, certainly, Mr. Chairman. The hon. gentleman has been asleep! If he reads the Commercial Intelligence he will find that that is being done all the time.


Leon Johnson Ladner: I think my hon. friend
has been at sea!


Hance James Logan: I have been at sea, but
not overseas.
Mr. LeSUEUR: Are there any trade commissioners in any country that do the actual selling of goods? Their duty as I have always understood it, is to bring the producer in touch with the buyer, but not to make the actual sale.


Thomas Andrew Low: The hon. member is right. Our agents do not do any selling; they simply bring the buyer and the seller together.


Mr. WHITE:: Are additional offices to be opened this year?
Mr. LOW.: Some may be opened during the course of the year, but nothing has been definitely decided.


Richard Smeaton White: I understand that the position of director has been abolished and the occupant of that office sent to the West Indies. That should make a saving instead of an extra expenditure should it not?


Thomas Andrew Low: The office has not been abolished, but the director has been transferred to Barbados.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Labour-Administration, Employment Offices Coordination Act, $50,000.
The CHAIRMAN:: This is the vote that
was allowed to stand before six o'clock.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: This employment service is
undoubtedly doing very valuable work in regulating the distribution of labour, particularly that variety of labour which is engaged in seasonal employment. I haVe before me, as illustrative of what I am referring to, the figures indicating the movement of farm labourers to and from western Canada during
1923.	In the spring and harvest seasons 5,519 men were transferred from British Columbia to the prairie provinces, and of that number 2,963 were subsequently returned to British Columbia. During the harvest season 34,599 harvest hands were transported from eastern
[Mr. Logan. 1
Canada to western Canada and of that number 29,021 returned to eastern Canada. Then, of British harvesters 11,883 were brought to western Canada; 1,385 returned to eastern Canada, and 2,284 to Great Britain; 225 were deported, and there remained 7,939, so that the estimated increase of farm labourers remaining in western Canada following the 1923 movement totalled 16,073, according to the figures. The work of transporting these men from British Columbia and from eastern Canada to western Canada during the spring and harvest seasons was largely, as I say, done by this employment service, and in order to see that the work is properly coordinated it is essential that it be continued in their hands. But there is another organization, the Land Settlement branch, attached to the Immigration department, which is engaged in bringing farm employees and labourers from overseas. The work of that branch has interfered very seriously with the work of the employment offices, and as a result of there being no co-ordination between the activities of those two departments there is a considerable amount of unemployment in various parts of Canada even to-day. I have noticed resolutions passed by the town council of Sarnia, by one or two other cities in Ontario and by some cities in western Canada, complaining of this unemployment and of the failure of the federal government to assume the responsibility. I suggest simply that it should be the minister's aim to endeavour to co-ordinate the work of this Land Settlement branch and that of the employment service with a view to seeing that there shall be no overlapping and that no injustice is done either to the employers of labour or to the employees themselves, especially those engaged in seasonal employment.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I think the minister was going to give me some information regarding the possibility of the establishment of unemployment insurance-what is being done in other places.


James Murdock: During the interval since six o'clock I have tried to get that information, but the file clerks in the department had gone home; consequently my hon. friend will have to bear with me until I can go into the department in daylight. I will get the information.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Administration, Technical Education Act, $3,000.
Arthur Meighen: How long does this statutory grant last?


James Murdock: Until 1929.

Supply-Labour


Arthur Meighen: Oh well, I will not inquire further. The minister will not have anything to do with renewing it.


James Murdock: You cannot tell.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Administration of the Act respecting Annuities for Old Age, $25,000.
Arthur Meighen: Will the minister say what progress his department has made toward establishing old age pensions? Could he give us an illuminating address on the subject?


James Murdock: There is a special committee of the House appointed to consider that matter.


Arthur Meighen: The minister would be
on that committee?
' Mr. MURDOCK: For some reason, my name is not on the committee, but the committee is splendidly equipped to go thoroughly into the matter, and I shall be glad to give it any advice and assistance I can.


Arthur Meighen: I think I could guess the reason why the minister is not on the committee, especially as the committee was moved by the Prime Minister. I think the chief reason would be that he does not want to be on.


James Murdock: I did not ask to be left out.


Arthur Meighen: No, I do not think the request would be necessary; it probably was suggested to him that that would be the part of wisdom. How is it that the government has not made any progress with the subject? I would have thought from the prognostications of the Liberal campaign programme and from the known convictions of the minister, that we would be far on now with the subject of old age pensions. I am naturally interested in the question; I am approaching that stage myself, as is the minister, and I would not like to have a committee appointed session after session, merely as a means of shunting this question over from year to year. Has the government got nothing done? Has it nothing to lay before the committee? What is the government's idea of what an old age pension ought to be, and at what age ought it to start? How much is it going to cost?


James Murdock: How many questions are you going to expect me to remember and answer?


Arthur Meighen: The minister can remember all these; if he is sincere, he must have been thinking of all these for years. Before going
any further, I would like 'to know what the minister can do in answering these I have already suggested.	.


James Murdock: The government has been very busy for the past four weeks dealing with a number of very important subjects. There was the long debate over the budget, for instance, and there have been many other very important questions, possibly no more important than the question of old age pensions, but questions that appeared to have priority having regard to the financial condition the country is in. I can assure my right hon. friend that the question of old age pensions has not been overlooked, but it is realized, as my right hon. friend will realize, that with the enormous financial obligations this country has to face, it cannot take too hurriedly upon itself an old age pension scheme that would entail a very large responsibility, without full investigation as to what it might involve. That is now being undertaken, and all in reasonably good time, not too hurriedly, and with due regard to the financial position of the country, it is hoped that something will be definitely recommended to parliament. Further than that I cannot give my right hon. friend any information except that the matter has been very carefully considered and will be carefully considered.


James Shaver Woodsworth: This is not beyond the jurisdiction of the federal authorities?


James Murdock: It has not been so ruled by the Justice department so far as I know.


Arthur Meighen: My hopes are slowly sinking. Apparently the government have been giving very thoughtful and prayerful consideration to this question, but they have not got any further; they have not reached any views. Something is going to be submitted, some time, somewhere; the trouble is the country has a large debt, and consequently we must go slow in this thing. It is amazing that that idea did not enter the minister's mind in 1919. It is also amazing how it escaped his mind in


James Murdock: How do you know that it did?


Arthur Meighen: It escaped in 1921.


James Murdock: In what way?


Arthur Meighen: Because the minister did not make any statement to the country to that effect.


James Murdock: What statements did the minister make in 1921?


Arthur Meighen: He made a lot he should not have made.
Supply-Labour


James Murdock: My right hon. friend
cannot point to one statement I made in 1921 on the subject of old age pensions.


Arthur Meighen: No, I am complaining
that he should have. He comes now and tells us: We have to be very careful; we have a large debt. Well, we had a debt in 1921, not quite as big, but pretty nearly, and he had a platform in his hand, promising old age pensions, and he did not tell the people then we could not do it. I say it is a wonder the idea did not enter his mind at that time. No progress has been made since, none at all; other things have priority. Perhaps he would tell the committee just what priority the Union club and the Scribe hotel would have over old age pensions, and why.


George Perry Graham: Would my right hon.
friend tell us his views on old age pensions? Does he think the government ought now to establish old age pensions, and if so, on what basis?


Arthur Meighen: My view is, if you do
not think so, you should not say so.


George Perry Graham: That is safe, anyway.


Arthur Meighen: That is a line of safety
that the minister did not follow, unfortunately.


James Murdock: My right hon. friend
cannot prove one word of that statement; he cannot prove a word of it. It is all in line with his beautiful inaccuracies, that is all.


Arthur Meighen: Have I the floor or has the minister?


James Murdock: I am drawing attention to the fact that he cannot get away with that sort of misrepresentation with me. He is stating things that are absolutely and unqualifiedly false.


Arthur Meighen: Nothing worse?


James Murdock: No, just that, and I
realize that it is all a part of the function that he thinjks he has to perform, but he cannot get away with it with me. The right hon. gentleman cannot point to one statement I made about old age pensions in 1919 or 1921. He is only trying to make a noise to convince the country that he is doing something. The statement that I have made is in accordance with the facts. The government is proceeding in an orderly and considered way, having regard to the financial load that the right hon. gentleman, his government and his predecessors left with the

country, to investigate this question of old age pensions. It may not be to the liking of my right hon. friend and his "special interest" friends but the government is doing fairly well.


Arthur Meighen: If the minister has anything else to say I will gladly listen. I would rather listen to him than be talking myself.


James Murdock: There is a lot more,
and it is all due you.


Arthur Meighen: If the minister is exhausted, I will interject a few thoughts. I thought I had made clear to him that I did not say he had made any statement in 1921, but he subscribed to a platform in 1921, a platform which promised action in respect of old age pensions. This is the statement I made, and' nothing more, and all the minister's hackneyed adjectives, drawn from his long experience in other spheres, will not produce much more than amusement in this House. I thought he had learned the lesson in the early days of his first session that that kind of spread-eagle oratory is some century or two out of date, and unless he has something really to say, the less noise inflicted upon the House of Commons the better. It was with some difficulty, I know, that his colleagues restrained his exuberance in the early days of his entry into this House, but they did it, and the discipline was certainly most beneficent. Why forget the lesson he was taught?
Now, 'answering the bon. Minister of Railways (Mr. Graham), he wants to know my views. I have never expressed to the people of Canada the belief that we could enter upon a period of old age pensions. I never intimated that we had; consequently I am not now answerable [DOT] for intimations before this House. That is my position on the subject. I know the position the country is in, but I know the country was in virtually the same position two, three and four years ago. The contrast, of course, will appear to the Minister of Railways at once. But apparently the government has done nothing, except, of course, this very anxious thought they have been giving to the question. They have not got past the thought. Why the committee of the House? What is the idea? The government had ideas on the subject years ago; what has become of them? Are they dissipated? Why the committee of parliament now to furnish new ones? Why not let some come from the administration? Could the Minister of Railways and Canals give us any idea of when

Privilege-Mr. Marcil
this something, at some time, is going to come before this House? I mean this proposal suggested by himself.


George Perry Graham: I have not said that
any proposal would come before the House. I hope that a report will come from the committee, a very ordinary method of dealing with all these affairs in order to get all the information requisite for parliament to form its conclusions. I do not know what proposals will be made, if any. I am in hopes that the committee will be able to report before the session is over and give us the benefit of the information they have received, as well as their deliberations in the matter.


Arthur Meighen: Could the minister give
us his views-because we will respect his opinions, if he has any,

as to whether we should have these old age pensions?


George Perry Graham: My opinion is that we
should thoroughly investigate the matter before dealing with it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Graham the House adjourned at 11.05 pm.
Tuesday, May 20, 1924