1924-04-04

OFFICIAL REPORT


Volume I:: Pages 1-1020 Volume III: Pages 2013-3040 Volume V: Pages 4037-4877


Volume II:: Pages 1021-2012 Volume IV: Pages 3041-4035 Volume VI: Index [DOT]



VOLUME CLXI


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OANAD^
House of Commons
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Hebates
Friday, April 4, 1924

Mr. HERBERT MARLER (St. Lawrence-St. George):: I beg to present the petition of the Presbyterian Church Association branch for the synod of Montreal and Ottawa protesting against the passing of an act for church union.



SELECT STANDING COMMITEES


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Guthrie,
Healy,
Hoey,
Johnston,
Kennedy (Edmonton), Ladner,
Lapointe,
Macdonald,
Malcolm,
Marcil (Bonaventure), Marler,
McDonald,
McKillop,
McTaggart,
Morin,
Murdock,
Prevost,
Rinfret,
Stewart (Hamilton), Tolmie, and White.-33.
And that the quorum of the said committee do consist of 10 members.
Mr. MACKENZIE KING moved that the report be concurred in.
Motion agreed to.
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) presented the report of the special committee appointed to prepare and report, with all convenient speed, lists of members to compose the select standing committees on mines, forests and waters, and on industrial and international relations, as constituted by the House on Thursday, March 27, as follows:
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ON MINES, FORESTS AND WATERS Messieurs:
Arthurs,
Bird,
Black (Yukon),
Boucher,
Carroll,
Camithers,
Church,
d'Anjou,
Davies,
Dechene,
Desaulniers,
Dickie,
Forrester,
Garland (Bow River), Gendron,
Hanson,
Hunt,
Kelly,
Kennedy (Kenora),
And that the quorum sist of 10 members.
Knox,
Lanctot,
Lapierre,
Logan,
Macphail,
Manion,
McBride,
Michaud,
Munro,
Pelletier,
Power,
Roberge,
Ross (Kingston),
Spence,
Stewart (Argenteuil),
Stork,
Ward, and Warner.-37.
the said committee do con-
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ON INDUSTRIAL AND INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS Messieurs:
Black (Halifax), Cahill,
Caldwell,
Cannon,
Carroll,
Denis (Joliette),
Deslauriers,
Drummond,
Finn,
Gervais,
Graham,
Grimmer,

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On the Orders of the Day:
Sir HENRY DRAYTON (West York):: I wonder whether the Acting Minister of Finance (Mr. Robb) is able to tell us to-day when the budget will be delivered. Will it be next week or the week after?


Hon. J. A. ROBB (Acting Minister of Finance):: I hope to deliver it not later than the Tuesday immediately preceding the Easter adjournment, although I should like to bring it down a little earlier than that. However, I will let my hon. friend know on Monday.


Henry Lumley Drayton: There are so
many people interested in the budget disclosures that it is generally considered necessary to give from five days' to a week's notice. It is only fair that those who are interested should know fairly well in advance, and I would ask whether the budget is likely to be brought down next week.


James Alexander Robb: I will give my hon. friend a definite reply on Monday. It is possible that it may be next week.



PENSIONS UNDER CALDER ACT

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On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. C. A. GAUVREAU (Temiscouata):: Will tbe Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) say whether there is any foundation for the despatch sent from Ottawa to La Patrie, Montreal, to the effect that after March 31 no civil servant will be granted a pension under the Calder Act unless he has resigned before that date?

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Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: This is the first intimation I have had of the despatch in question and I know of no foundation for it. I should not like, however, to reply to my hon. friend without having an opportunity to look into the matter. I will let him know on Monday.



REDISTRIBUTION .

Right Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN (Leader of the Opposition):: What progress has been made in the establishment of the committee on redistribution? Considerable time has gone by now and we have a mountain to climb in this direction which we should now be scaling.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There has been some conference between the whips as to the size of the committee, and there has1 been a little difficulty in securing a general agreement on the matter. I understand that a committee of the same size, and probably of the same personnel, as that of last year may now be named. I hope on Monday to be able to give to the House the names.



DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

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The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
Department of the Interior-
Expenses connected with the Dominion Observatory at Ottawa, 550,000.
Arthur Meighen: I did not expect that the estimates of the Department of the Interior would be taken up to-day. The Interior estimates have not been called on Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday as yet. Heretofore I have always agreed, but we are not in a position to do so now. I did not know until to-day that the government had mentioned Interior estimates. Certainly they have no right to go into them to-day.


Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil):: The announcement was made on three occasions, but the right hon. member is perfectly correct: The Interior estimates have not yet been in committee.


The CHAIRMAN:: The Interior estimates will not be proceeded with on account of the objection.
Item stands.
DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE Agriculture-Entomology, $25,000.


Mr. GOULD:: I notice there is a reduction of $5,000. In this department there is a wonderful field for knowledge; much can be 
done in the way of entomological research work to educate the people along proper lines, and I have wondered why the minister would cut this down by the amount mentioned in the estimate.


Hon. W. R. MOTHERWELL (Minister of Agriculture):: This does not mean that the 'activities of the branch will be lessened. This appropriation is merely for the Ottawa staff and equipment. The staff will be found over the Birks building on Sparks street. It is hoped a slight reduction may be obtained without any curtailment of the activities which come under the next item, which has to do with what, I think, my hon. friend is interested in. It. has been thought that possibly we can reduce this appropriation by not extending the number of specimens as actively as we have done and not putting out so much literature. There is a good deal of criticism about the quantity of bulletins issued, much of which it is said is not read. Something may be said in that regard, but, I hope that class of work will continue, although it may not be as pronounced as in the past.


Henry Lumley Drayton: In view of the ruling of the Chair the other day that when we move to strike out any portion of a vote, we cannot show what the object of the motion is, I am inclined to think we shall have to ask that the resolutions be printed differently, so that we may know exactly what we are doing. In the meantime, short of that, short of having proper information, and in view of that ruling, I now ask the minister to let us know, first, what is the object of this vote, who gets the money and what it is for; and second, how much was spent last year.


William Richard Motherwell: Since I have to
some extent answered the question, if I confine myself to the memorandum I have, that will be more concise. These are the specific purposes:
Printing bulletins, circulars, leaflets and reports. Stationery, .printing and bookbinding.
Apparatus, scientific supplies and field equipment. Under this heading is included an amount to purchase further insect cases, drawers and steel cabinets for the national collection and divisional working collections of insects.
Maintenance of library, periodicals and books, general supplies, chemicals, etc.
A slight reduction in the amount of each one of these items, we think, will bring about the reduction in the whole appropriation. A considerable amount of this is spent in what we call trays or drawers in which the entomological specimens are mounted. A good deal of care is required in collecting and having them properly mounted and established in these cases, and then they are

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put away in casings for the purpose of reference and identification. The principal saving, however, will be in the bulletins, and there will be a little slackening of the work wherever that can be accomplished without neglect of the outside service which is dealt with in the next item. This item has nothing to do with salaries; it has to do simply with the maintenance of the office in connection with these specimens, bulletins and the various other items to which I have referred.


Henry Lumley Drayton: If I followed
the minister correctly, this is to enlarge our collection of bug species.


William Richard Motherwell: No.


Henry Lumley Drayton: To put them in the trays. If it is not, perhaps he will tell us what it is.


William Richard Motherwell: Not to enlarge the
collection. It is for the purpose which I have indicated. If there are any particular specimens of insect life that are infesting our crops or orchards, of course they will be added to our collection. But we hope to curtail the activities in whatever particular branch of this appropriation we can without affecting the field work which is taken care of in the next item. I do not know why this item was inserted in this way. It was here when I took office and I have often wondered why it could not be merged with the next appropriation, because it is confined entirely to the office and its equipment and supplies in the city. I suppose this was done to separate the Ottawa activities from the outside.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Then no more
bugs will be put into the collection unless the minister finds fresh bugs?


William Richard Motherwell: Practically so, not
necessarily.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What else is to be added?


William Richard Motherwell: There might be
some of the old of which we have not sufficient specimens on hand, or some of the old ones might escape, or something of that kind, -or some other contingency might occur.
'Sir HENRY DRAYTON: Some of the old ones might escape, or something of that kind. But how many does the minister think make a full hand in any line of insects? What is he trying to get?


William Richard Motherwell: My hon. friend
shows a laudable desire for information, so I will tell him. We have been patrolling the
m
frontier in the southern part of Quebec for the past number of years to ward off an attack of what we call gypsy moth. In the event of any of those being discovered on the Canadian s'ide-I presume we have some specimens of them-we will immediately proceed to institute quarantine proceedings that will restrict the infested area, and we will endeavour to exterminate the pest. Of course we shall have to have mounted specimens for that.
It is the business of the department to run any new infection to ground, to death, if we can, and naturally we want specimens for identification and scientific purposes.


Mr. FORKE:: This seems a large amount
of money to spend for cases in which to store away our dead bugs.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Dead?


Robert Forke: Yes, dead. They will not
do any more damage. They are quite safe.
I did not rise for the purpose of criticizing this appropriation, but it seems to be a large amount to spend for cases. The minister issued about two circulars that were really good in connection with this branch of the public service.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Out of how
many?


Robert Forke: Out of a hundred probably.
Those two were really good and of service to our farmers.


William Richard Motherwell: I omitted to give the amounts of these items. The vote is allocated as follows:	$11,000 for the first item, circulars, leaflets, etc.; $2,700 for stationery, printing, etc.; $5,880 for apparatus; $1,100, maintenance of library; $900, general supplies. I thank my hon. friend for what he says about the bulletins. I do not know what particular ones he refers to, but we try to make them as useful as possible.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The minister is to be congratulated in being right in two at most out of his one hundred circulars, and I have no doubt he is quite right also in thanking the leader of the Progressive party for that tribute to his efficiency. What are the details of the item of $5,000 for apparatus?


William Richard Motherwell: If my hon. friend will pay attention this time, I will read them again. Scientific supplies and field equipment: under that head is included an amount for the purchase of further insect cases. The specimens are kept in little shallow drawers three or four inches deep, and they are pinned down so that they cannot get away even after they are dead. There is provision also for
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drawers and steel cabinets for the national collection and divisional work in the collection of insects. If my hon. friend knows of any better way of disposing of these little creatures I shall be glad to have his suggestions.


Henry Lumley Drayton: How much is to be spent on the purchase of these receptacles for new insects?


William Richard Motherwell: That will depend on the invasions to which we are subjected during the year.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That is all very well, but I understand that this vote is for the purposes of inside work. How much of this vote is for receptacles?


William Richard Motherwell: It is very hard to divide the amount any more minutely than I (have done, except to say that a certain amount of microscopic work is to be carried out.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend seems determined to give me no information at all. I am asking how this $5,000 is made up. So far he has indicated that there are two items, first, the purchase of trays in which the insects are put, and, secondly, microscopical plant or instruments. If he cannot tell us how much he intends to spend on receptacles, will he tell us how much he intends to spend on microscopes?


William Richard Motherwell: This work is fluctuating in its character and we have to be prepared' for contingencies. We cannot tell anything more about the insect invasions than we can about the crop. A warm, early spring usually brings about an invasion of grasshoppers, for instance, especially if there is no frost to destroy the eggs or the young midgets. So I cannot say exactly how much we will spend, though I can give a rough estimate if that is desired.


Arthur Meighen: I just want to say a
word or two on the general policy. I have always, in office and out of office, sought to reduce to the minimum scientific work of this character inside-what one might call more or less ornamental work. I have no objection to outside work at all, and I also acknowledge that a certain amount of inside work is essential, but I do think it is overdone-and the redundancy is not confined to the Department of Agriculture; there is some in other departments as well. But I have always thought that the enthusiasm of officials, the desire to extend the sphere of their own work, results in the creating of elaborate scientific departments here, there
I Mr. Motherwell.]
and everywhere, and great collections of dead bugs instead of killing the live ones. Besides, we cannot in this country hope to rival the other big scientific institutions in this matter. We will get on far faster by availing ourselves of the scientific results achieved' by great laboratories to the south of us than by seeking to plant in our own country pale, weak imitations of them. It seems to me that if we take advantage of the scientific results achieved in the big state institutions of the United States -and we get it all; it cannot possibly be kept from us-we can save a lot of money here at home and at the same time seek to get practical results in our own field. It is better to spend the money that way than in too much employment of scientific men in small laboratories in Canada.


Oliver Robert Gould: I was not so much interested in the $5,000 item which provided coffins for the dead bugs, although they would seem to be rather expensive. I wish to make one comment, however, with regard to the $11,000 item in connection with distribution of literature. I myself have been in receipt of many pamphlets from the Entomological department which did not particularly apply to the district in which I live. For instance, it was not particularly interesting, nor did I have time to study up, what might be the matter with the peach crop in Niagara peninsula. If the department is advised to send out pamphlets dealing only with matters indigenous to the parts of the country to which they go, I think we could save a lot of money. Is that item of $11,000 a smaller amount than was used for the same purpose last year?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes, and the same applies to the next vote. Replying to my right hon. friend's (Mr. Meighen) criticism regarding the tendency of the departments to extend, I may say that that is why we are trying to reduce these appropriations-to counteract that tendency. He further suggests that instead of taking care of the dead bugs we should be killing the live ones. Well, they have to be alive first; we have to kill the live ones to get the dead ones. These specimens are caught alive, killed and mounted. Here is the subdivision of the item of $5,880 that my hon. friend (Sir Henry Drayton) asked for:	Cameras, $300; microscopes, $700 to $800; laboratory supplies, $1,000; steel cases, about $3,500. That is as close as we can get to the details. As I said before, the use to which this money is put in each subdivision will depend wholly on the nature of the conditions next summer, and those we cannot anticipate.

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Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: May I ask if the minister has not got at the present time sufficient microscopes in the department. If I understood him correctly, he has an item .of from $500 to $700 for microscopes. That seems an extraordinary sum of money for that purpose.


William Richard Motherwell: I have never
bought any of this equipment myself, but I understand that amount will buy two or three instruments. This equipment is not for Ottawa alone, but for a number of laboratories all over the Dominion, some twenty in all.


Edward Joseph Garland: If the minister is reducing the work of the department surely they will require, if anything, less microscopes than formerly:	Is there a
need for new microscopes particularly, or is this sum required for repairs?


William Richard Motherwell: I am afraid the
hon. member did not listen very carefully. We are not intending to reduce the outside activities with respect to ,the curtailment of insect ravages. We are endeavouring to maintain and operate the office in Ottawa a little more cheaply, to the extent of $3,000.


Mr. TOLMIE:: Would the minister tell us what action he has taken in respect of the importation of plants from the Old Country by mail ? I understand there are some negotiations on whereby it will be possible to handle these through the post office.


William Richard Motherwell: Just a few days
ago we got through Council new regulation-permitting plants to be sent, through th.' post office. Formerly that was not p*i' mitted.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Under what conditions
will the inspection be made in the Old Country, and what will the fee be for the inspection?


William Richard Motherwell: All inspections
are made on this side, usually at the port of entry. The parcel will designate what it contains, of course. I jthink in the past all inspections have been made on this side. TTot all post offices, but any large post .office will be a medium through which the shipments can be made by mail.


Robert Forke: I understand there was an
item of $822 for cases last year. To an ordinary man it seems almost out of the question that so much money should be spent annually on cases for preserving the new specimens collected during the year.


William Richard Motherwell: If I had not seen
this collection myself and the innumerable drawers and cases, I would have thought just as my hon. friend does. It would,take hours to go through them all. It is a national collection.


Robert Forke: Is this simply for new specimens collected during the year?


William Richard Motherwell: I understood from Mr. Gibson when I was there, that they are making a national collection for reference purposes. They are collecting not only new specimens, but are preserving all the insects that have been doing damage in Canada dating back for perhaps a quarter of a century. The collection is constantly being added to. Very frequently the specimens that were mounted formerly were not just as well preserved as they might be. It is a very delicate operation to catch these insects alive. They have to be carefully killed, and then they are mounted and preserved so that they appear in a natural condition. It takes quite a lot of money.


Robert Forke: I do not want the minister to misunderstand me. I realize that insects and different forms of fungus are perhaps the most dangerous menace we have, but the expenditure seems very large.


William Richard Motherwell: It is expensive. The cases are of steel. I was reading up this question by an entomologist. I forget his name for the moment', and he made the prediction that the next great war would be against insect life and fungus growth. I do not know whether he will prove to be right or not, but I do know that as a community gets older, and particularly if you restrict yourself to the growing of one particular crop, providing food for one particular variet}- of insect, the insects will increase in number every year. We are fortunately exempt from many of the insects that infest the southern states, attacking almost every species of plant life in the farm and garden. We in this northern latitude are saved from a great many of those pests. Nevertheless, if we have a series of warm years, with an early spring, it is marvellous how new insects will pour into our country. The European com borer, for instance, was quite unknown in Canada about five years ago, but I suppose there must be thirty counties in Ontario affected by the corn borer to-day.


Mr. RYCKMAN:: What amount of the vote was expended last year?


William Richard Motherwell: About ninety-five
per cent.
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Mr. MILNE:: It seems to me that this
development may not be exactly along the right line. I think that at this particular time we should get away from fads and fancies. We have insects and bugs that are of economic importance to agriculture, and I think it is to those that our entomologists should direct their attention. I think that in a good many instances the entomologists are inclined to fads and making a tremendous collection of bugs and insects that are of no economic value so far as agriculture is concerned. These steel cases are an indication of the line along which they travel. I notice from the Auditor General s report of two years ago that a sum of $2,000 was spent for cases, some steel, and some mahogany coffins for these bugs to he in. This year we intend to spend $3,500 along the same line. I am not prepared to say exactly what the nature of the work that is being done is, bu.t I am inclined to think that the entomologists are not directing enough energy upon insects that are of economic importance and are spending too much time on what might be called fads, such as that of getting collections together.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Reverting to the importation of plants through the post office, I understand there were certain abuses with regard to inspection on the other side. Do I understand there is no more inspection in Great Britain?


William Richard Motherwell: That is right.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Through what ports on the Pacific will these plants be admitted?


William Richard Motherwell: Victoria and Vancouver. We have just recently constructed a laboratory in Vancouver for that purpose.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: What progress is the department making with the corn borer? Is it gaining at all? Is it scattering into new territory, or is it still pinned down to those counties in Ontario where it existed a few years ago?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes I notice it
has appeared as far east as Kemptville. It is spreading into new territory, although in the older territory, for instance down in Essex county, I understand, restrictive measures have been employed with success, in co-operation with the farmers, and by cutting the ensilage corn at a different period, a great many insects have been destroyed going into the silo. Employing cultural methods, such as late fall plowing and deep plowing, are also considered to be quite helpful.


Mr. WHITE:: What success has the department had in combating the corn borer by introducing parasites?


William Richard Motherwell: Nature can sometimes be helped out a little by supplying parasites for particular kinds of pests. For instance, the grasshopper has a parasite that I think is somewhat helpful in destroying it; the corn borer has a parasite; and we are helping to combat pests by the introduction of these parasites. In this particular case the experiment is so recent that we are not, as yet, able to tell the result. It is hoped, however, that the parasite employed will multiply itself rapidly and assist us in exterminating the pest.


Robert Forke: 
Mr. HOCKEN:: The pussy cat?


Robert Forke: Yes, the pussy cat. I repeat, it may seem a rather trifling thing to mention the little birds we find on our prairies, but they are the greatest insect destroyers and the greatest friends that the farmer has anywhere. I want to urge all the farmer members of this House to do all they can to preserve the bird1 life around their farms and their homes.


William Richard Motherwell: Hear, hear.


Mr. SUTHERLAND:: Would my hon.
friend make any distinction between the species of birds? I understand an effort is being made at the present time in the United States to exterminate the crows.


Robert Forke: Well, I do not know
whether the crow is to be regarded as a useful bird or not.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: W7hat about the rats if
we exterminate the pussy cats?


Robert Forke: It is rather a wide field
of discussion to enter upon ait the present time, but I assure my hon. friend that I would attach more importance to poison in getting rid of rats than I would to cats. Of course, the birds to which I refer are the insect eating birds. They are the species that I am anxious to preserve. Anyone who has studied this question and Teams the number of insects that one insect eating bird will destroy even in a day realizes the importance of preserving the bird life of the country. Man is altering the balance of nature by destroying certain species of life. When you

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destroy bird life of this character you give insect life a tremendous advantage and an opportunity to propagate. As has been, already said, unless some check on the growth of insects is maintained, very soon all animal life would be destroyed. It is a very strong statement to make but it is true. And it is only by these checks of which I have spoken that insect life is kept within bounds. Bird life is one of the best checks on dangerous insects that we have and that is why I want to see it maintained. I do not desire to take up time unduly and will simply close with this statement: Anyone who lives in the country and takes an interest in bird life, in their habits and methods of living, will derive a knowledge that will make his life richer and happier.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Can the minister give any
information as to what measures have been taken to combat fire blight on the Pacific coast, or rather, west of the Rocky mountains?	,


William Richard Motherwell: That is a matter
that will be dealt with in the next vote.


Mr. LEADER:: I do not know whether
this is the proper place to bring up the subject of bee keeping or not. If not, I should like to know under what item the matter can be brought up. I have received a communication from my city to-day asking me to use my influence with the Department of Agriculture to prevent the importation of foul brood in bees. I want to bring that matter to the attention of the minister. The communication referred to is from the Portage la Prairie Bee Keepers' Association and it reads as follows:
I have been instructed by the Portage Bee Keepers' Association to ask you to use y( Ur influence in having laws passed that will prevent the importation and spread of foul brood and othei diseases among bees.
Has that matter been settled?


William Richard Motherwell: That has been
settled.


Arthur Meighen: Does the minister mean
that the importation of bees is prohibited now?


William Richard Motherwell: -Yes, We found that the very infectious and dangerous disease called foul brood was spreading very rapidly, especially in Ontario. I think the committee will recall that we voted $5,000 last year on condition that the Ontario government would also give a similar grant for the extermination of this bacterial disease. In order to bring about that desirable result we find it
necessary, as a result of such requests as my hon. friend has just read, to prohibit importations of bees for the present until we can get this disease rounded up in our own country.
I do not know how long the embargo will be maintained, but it will be kept in force so long as there is danger of infection from the American side, or from any quarter, because this is not confined to the United States, it is an European disease. I understand this embargo was put into effect a few years ago against Great Britain.


Robert Milne: I wonder could the minister give us any idea how much was spent in cases of this kind last year?


William Richard Motherwell: While that information is being looked up we can discuss some other subject. Does my hon. friend mean the steel cases the insects are put in?


Robert Milne: Some of them are mahogany and some are steel.


William Richard Motherwell: They have to be
very carefully made and very close fitting, else these dead insects will be attacked by different species of life that succeed in getting through the crevices. For these reasons the making of these cases is very costly. However I will give my hon. friend all the information I possibly can.	[DOT]


Simon Fraser Tolmie: What work is being carried on in British Columbia in connection with the eradication of mosquitoes, particularly in the valley of the Fraser river.


William Richard Motherwell: I understand we
have one officer in the Fraser valley who is studying this problem, which is a very old problem as the hon. gentleman knows, and a good deal of the contagion is supposed to be attributable to that source.


Mr. EULER:: Why this discrimination in favour of British Columbia?


Mr. CARROLL:: Is the minister serious in stating that he is trying to exterminate the mosquitoes of British Columbia?


Mr. POWER:: I protest that this ought to be combined with the Flying staff.


Mr. GARDINER:: I have the Auditor
General's Report ending March, 1923, and I would like to ask in regard to this expenditure. What is the reason for buying three sleeping robes? Is it to keep the bugs warm? There is an item for eiderdowns, three silk tents and two silk tents, and so forth. Why is it necessary to make expenditures of that description?
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William Richard Motherwell: I understand this comes under the next vote. In the meantime we will have the item looked up.


Edward Joseph Garland: I desire to have the information before the item carries. It is m the vote on entomology. The next item is Administration of the Destructive Insect and Pest Act." I would like information as to the cost of building these mahogany cases. It appears that two years ago $2,000 was expended under this item. 1 his year $3,500 is to be spent. Last year the item was unknown, but apparently the minister is going into it now. I think he will find that about $7,500 was spent the last three years for the casings for additions made annually to the collection of these bugs. I would like a little further explanation Why these casings cost so much. Would it not be better to do it a little cheaper? Can we not do away with the mahogany and replace with soft wood, and do away with the steel?


William Richard Motherwell: I understand these are very expensively constructed casings, because they have to be very tight and close-htting. The hon. member asks why mahogany or why steel? Well, there are certain qualities in wood that m their very nature are repelling to insect life. That is one of the reasons, of course. My hon. friend has heard of cedar being repelling. I do not know as much about mahogany as I do about cedar, but I presume it is the same thing.


Mr. SPENCER:: Which is the most expensive, mahogany or steel? Do 4 p.m. you sometimes use one and sometimes the other?


William Richard Motherwell: Steel cases are more expensive.


Robert Gardiner: What was spent last year on these cases?
for entomology is spent on insects that are of economic importance?


William Richard Motherwell: I understand about 95 per cent.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Administration of the Destructive Insect and Pest Act, 1310,000.
Mr. HANSON:: About how much was
spent last year, and what was the nature of the work carried on in the province of New Brunswick? I understand the department has a small laboratory at Fredericton. Dr. Tothill is in charge of that. I should like to know the nature of the work done last year. Dr. Tothill is a very excellent official, and there is a very grave danger of losing his services to our friends to the south, unless he is properly remunerated.


William Richard Motherwell: I understand the work of that federal laboratory was largely connected with the spruce bud-worm and brown-tail moth. There is a small provincial laboratory, just a little shack, where I think they were pursuing an investigation in connection with a fungus disease of the cactus apple-blossom. I do not know whether they thought we were not prosecuting the work sufficiently rapidly. I scarcely know why the provincial government took it up, but apparently the ravages of that little fungus were so great that they thought it necessary to do this additional work. I think the work could be merged. I understand the laboratory was located somewhere down town in Fredericton, and it was suggested it should be moved to' the experimental farm. That is what they had in mind, I think. Well, it is like a good many other activities; we have not the necessary money to build a laboratory and move it to the experimental farm, where I think its usefulness would be almost double.


William Richard Motherwell: I understand, $2,014 was spent. We have no purpose in stacking up a lot of useless cases. A lot of this work is of such a character that unless it is done carefully it need not be done.


Robert Gardiner: I find in this report
there were 302 of these insect cases procured m 1923. That seems to be a tremendous number of cases for this particular purpose.


William Richard Motherwell: We are adding a certain amount to it every year, in order to complete it.


Robert Milne: Can the minister give us any idea of what proportion of the money spent


Richard Burpee Hanson: About how much of a staff have you there, and what, is the annual expenditure? And, now that the brown-tail moth and the bud-worm are no longer with us, to what are they directing their attention?


Mi. MO PHERW ELL:: The brown-tail
moth attacks the apples.
Mr. HANSON - The hon. gentleman did not pay attention to what I said. Now that the brown-tail moth is no longer with us, and the spruce bud-worm has worked out his usefulness or its uselessness, what functions does the laboratory perform? Along what line of endeavour are they working. How large is the staff, and how much money has been spent?

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William Richard Motherwell: We are never at a loss to find some kind of insect life about us. I am sure after the brown-tail moth is done with, it will be the red-tail moth or something else.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That may be an answer.


Mr. CAMPBELL:: I notice the amount
spent under this head in 1922 was only $182,000. Last year it was $214,000. Could the minister give us some information as to this.


William Richard Motherwell: Because of the increase in insect ravages, all over the Dominion practically. There was a series of very dry years in the Wrest-that is in the southern part of the West-which stimulated interest in these invasions over many parts of Canada. What with the bud worm, the brown-tail moth and the grasshopper there was a demand for increased activities, just as there is today for more- extensive research work in connection with rust and other fungus diseases; and it is in response to that request that a greater expenditure is necessary to-day than formerly. I do not know that the vote should not have been increased this year, but we have kept it at the same figure in the hope that we may be able to carry on with the expenditure proposed.


Mr. MILLAR:: Does the appropriation for the fighting of rust come under this head?


William Richard Motherwell: This item has two sub-divisions, one with reference to fungus diseases, and the other, insect diseases. The insect diseases come under Mr. Gibson while the fungus diseases are looked after by Dr, Gussow, and that includes the* rust. The principal activity under Dr. Gussow is the certification of seed potatoes. There are a large number of inspectors looking after that work, which has become of much importance especially in the Maritime provinces. Two inspections are necessary during the growing period, one after the potatoes are dug, and another before they are certified. After the potatoes are certified they are worth about half again as much as commercial potatoes. The work in which my hon. friend (Mr. Millar) is more concerned is the investigation of rust. The federal department under Dr. Gussow has been working with the provincial agricultural college authorities at both Winnipeg and Saskatoon. We supply the staff and the provincial authorities provide the ground in which to carry on experiments and to sow the grain, in addition to the greenhouses in which to conduct indoor investigational work. We have been making progress, and as the leader of the opposition has suggested, we are
working to some extent in co-operation with the United States authorities in the matter of rust investigation. The people of the United States are just as much interested as we are in this matter, and perhaps more so. Similarly we are co-operating with the provincial authorities. I do not know that this is entirely the best way of dealing with the matter because sometimes our activities are somewhat circumscribed by the requirements of the provinces. But taking everything into consideration I think we have possibly secured more information during the last ten years with respect to this rust question than has been available in any part of the world previously. All the results achieved by research work in years gone by have not been equal in importance to the discoveries that have been made in this direction in the last eight or ten years. I am of the opinion, however, that if we in this generation are to reap any benefit from this work it will have to be speeded up, for there is a great deal still to be learned. The authorities in Dakota have made a valuable discovery at the experimental farm there in connection with Kota wheat; but inasmuch as that species does not resist all the different varieties of rust, and as it is not definitely known yet whether it possesses the necessary qualities from the standpoint of milling that make our wheat acceptable in the British market, there is a great deal of work ahead of us still before we can secure a variety of wheat containing all the characteristics of the best grain. Kota is not a product of crossbreeding; it is a Russian wheat produced by hand selection. There is not much known about it; but, the rust having become so bad in Dakota, a great many farmers are taking - the risk of growing Kota, seeing that in any case they must run some risk with other varieties. 'When the votes under the Public Works department come up, the question will arise as to possible extensions of laboratory space for the purpose of expediting this class of investigational work. A suggestion has been made that possibly this work might be better done if it were taken in hand by the Research Council of which Dr. Tory is president, and one advantage in handing the work over to him would be that he would be free to choose his staff, which is an important thing.


John Millar: This is a matter of vital
importance to many grain growers, because in my opinion rust has caused more damage than all other pests put together. From the research work that has been done, does it appear that the only success so far achieved has consisted in the breeding of types of grain
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that are rust-resistant? Or has success been met with in other directions?


William Richard Motherwell: The invasions of
the rust disease originate as a rule near the gulf and work north at about the same rate as the season, and there is no possible way of protecting the wheat from these spore attacks. These spores travel in the atmosphere four or five miles an hour against prevailing air currents, and the only way to offset their effects is to breed a plant that will sufficiently resist them. As there are all sorts of germ diseases against which the human body is immune only through the development of resistance, so in plant life we have to breed a type that will resist these attacks.


John Millar: The minister said just
now that more had been discovered in the last ten years or so in this matter than had ever been known previously. Can he give in concise form some of the discoveries that have been made recently, with particular reference to the cause of rust?


William Richard Motherwell: I presume the
hon member refers as well to the progress that has been made in combating this menace. We know that Kota wheat resists about ninety per cent of the forty different varieties of rust; in other words, we have a wheat that will resist thirty-six different varieties of this disease. Now, if we can develop the characteristics that are essential to good wheat, such as early maturity, quality, and prolific growth, together with a sufficiently sturdy straw, we shall have a splendid variety of Wheat in this particular species. But this has not been demonstrated; it may take ten or fifteen years, and no man can venture to predict anything in this connection because there are so many sides to the question. For example, it is only within recent years that the discovery has been made that there are different species of rust, and since then to some extent experimenters have had to double back and start over again with that knowledge in view. Once you know your enemy and are familiar with his characteristics and his peculiarities you have made one great step in the direction of getting the better of him. And as I say, it is only within recent times that we have known of the existence of rust in different forms; formerly it was thought that there was only one variety of rust.


Mr. CALDWELL:: Do the inspection
and the certifying of seed potatoes come under this vote?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Has there been any
complaint in regard to the physical grading of certified seed potatoes from the Maritime provinces?


William Richard Motherwell: As regards classification, size and so forth?


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I am referring to size,
shape and that sort of thing.


William Richard Motherwell: Yes. While in the Maritime provinces last summer I had a conference with the potato growers' organization and there was some criticism of the fact that potatoes that were too large and those under two inches were excluded.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: That is not the complaint I am referring to. Let me give a concrete illustration of my meaning. A man in my riding, who lives quite near me, had somewhere in the neighbourhood of forty acres of potatoes, and he secured over four thousand barrels off this forty-acre field. They were inspected in the field, found practically free from disease and they were so certified. They were also certified as being all of one variety. That is told by the blossom on the potatoes while they are growing, or, at least, that is one of the indications. It is much harder to detect a difference of variety in the bin than it is in the field. There is a much better chance to check up any other varieties in a field of growing potatoes; there is not so good an opportunity in the bin. When however, this man came to market his potatoes-and it is one of the requirements in order to get a certification of the potatoes that they shall be graded under the supervision of one of the officials of the department-he was somewhat surprised, after having been grading for nearly a whole afternoon, with his own crew of four or five men and the inspector supervising the work, to find that only a few barrels of seed had been passed as certified. Although they were all of one variety and free from disease, if there was any little difference of shape, they were taken out. They had to be all of exactly one shape, and anyone who grows potatoes knows that such grading is an impossibility. This man said that he would not have had more than two or three carloads out of four thousand barrels, and he objected to having them graded under this inspection. He, therefore, had to forfeit his certificate of freedom from disease or that the potatoes were all of one variety. I do not know whether the minister has had any complaint of this kind or not, because this is only a recent occurrence.


William Richard Motherwell: No.

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Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Within the last six months there has been formed what is now known as the New Brunswick Certified Seed-Potato Growers' Association, and this man of whom I have spoken is president of that association. It is made up of men who are large growers, who have had extensive experience in growing and marketing seed. I might say further that this man marketed this crop without the certification of the official of the department, and he got a good return for it. The man to whom he sold it did not demand that it be graded according to the inspector's ruling at all. He had seen the potatoes growing in the field during the summer; he knew that they were all of one variety and also that they were free from disease because he had looked over the field himself. He has told the officials of the Seed Growers' Association that he will not require this kind of grading. He took out the bruised potatoes and any ill-shaped ones, as anyone would do, but he did not demand that the potatoes be all of one size or of exactly one shape.
The method of inspection adopted is going to hamper our seed growers, especially in view of the fact that we hope to get a reduction in the freight on certified seed potatoes. I hope and I believe that we will get that. If, however, the potato growers do not comply with this grading, they do not get the certificate and, therefore, they will not get the reduced freight rate. While I am aware that we cannot settle this matter here to-day, I should like the minister to consider it, and to have representatives of the Seed Growers' Association meet officials of the minister's department who have charge of this work, so that they may go into this matter, because I know the Department of Agriculture does not want to impose any regulations or restrictions that will do an injury to any industry of that character.
Further, I think certified seed growing, is the only future of that industry in the Mari-times. Owing to the Fordney tariff we are shut out of the United States market for table potatoes, because the price we can get for that stock will not pay the duty and transportation charges and leave the farmer anything. On certified seed, however, the c^se is different. I think the minister was well within the mark when he said that certified stock was worth half as much again as table stock. I think he would have been safe in saying that it was worth twice as much. We can get a good price for that class of potatoes. The duty is not an ad valorem duty, but so much a hundred, and we can pay the duty and ship the seed to the United States. We have a permanent market in the southern states
for all the seed we can supply; in fact, we have never been able to supply the demand. There are several reasons for that which I will not bake up the time of the committee at present to state. But I would like the minister to consider my suggestion and arrange to have officials of his department meet some of the certified seed growers of the Maritime provinces and go into this matter of final inspection and grading. We are well satisfied with all the other features of the inspection.


William Richard Motherwell: We have no record of the complaint which my hon. friend has spoken of, but I might draw his attention to the fact that there are three inspections, no two of which are in themselves sufficient. There are certain diseases determinable only when the potato is graded. My hon. friend knows a number: for instance, blackleg, rot and blight. The very fact that there is a third inspection called for when the potatoes are in the bin shows that there is a possibility of the potatoes not passing the bin inspection when they have passed the growing inspection. The scab is a variable disease. Sometimes it is very pronounced, and sometimes it is loose scab, which is really not scab, but which at the same time a buyer thinks is scab. Then there is dry rot.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Possibly the reason
why the minister has not received any of these complaints is that the regulations were put into force only last year. I have had mine inspected for a number of years until last year, and the inspection was a bin inspection. The inspector came to your bin, looked the bin over, handled the potatoes, and decided whether they were all right or not. Last year there was a physical grading. When you were bagging them to load, the inspector superintended the grading and you had to grade them according to his regulations. That is what the potato growers object to. They do not object to the bin inspection, nor to the field inspection, which they consider all right.
There is one other point which I would like to draw to the notice of the minister, and which I think I pointed out last year. We have in New Brunswick certain dealers, shippers, who are not growers of potatoes, who will buy good-looking potatoes, put them into their bins and select them. This is what they call select seeds. They grade these and they get their own certificate printed marked, "Certified Seed Potatoes", although they are not certified by anybody. This was done a good deal, and I believe it
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is being done again this year. We would like to have this matter looked after very sharply. Our buyers who are buying high-priced certified seed, getting it inspected and certified, and who have worked up a good trade for this in the southern states, where we have a permanent market, do not want potatoes sold as seed that are not certified and that may possibly have disease. There are certain diseases, the minister says, you must find when the potato is growing, you cannot find them in the bin. You can find some diseases in the bin, but very few. Potatoes of this class are shipped to the people to whom we are selling, and the man who buys them is led to believe that the stock is government certified stock when it is not. The /certificate reads, "Canadian Certified Seed Potatoes" but it does not say who certified them. The people plant these potatoes and they may grow a diseased crop. In that case they will say that the Canadian certification is no good. This will discredit the whole thing from start to finish; it will nullify the work of the department in every particular. This is something that we who are really getting our potatoes certified want to put a stop to. It is ruining our seed trade. We have a steady market there, but this kind of thing will very readily undermine it and give us a very bad reputation.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Caldwell) has made a very serious charge against the potato dealers of New Brunswick. He has said either too much or too little. I am not sure which. I never heard of any such charges or of any such modus operandi on the part of dealers-and they are practically all in his own county-during the past two seasons when certified seed potatoes have been grown in New Brunswick. I want to call attention to this fact so that it will be heard down in New Brunswick by some of the hon. gentleman's own friends in the seed potato business and in the potato business generally.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Does my hon. friend deny that this thing has been going on?


Richard Burpee Hanson: I never heard of it before.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I can prove it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: You may be called upon to prove it by some of your own friends down in that community.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I am perfectly ready and willing to do so.


Richard Burpee Hanson: All right. I am making
these remarks so that the matter may be emphasized and attention called to it in the community that is interested. What I really 
rose for was to ask the minister this: In view of the fact that the potato business is such an important business in New Brunswick, why is it that the position of plant pathologist at Fredericton has been vacant for a year or more, at all events ever since the resignation of Mr. Cunningham? The work is being done by a young man who is a graduate of the University of New Brunswick, and although he is qualified for the position I understand that the department has refused to accept his services.


William Richard Motherwell: My hon. friend has raised a very important question. The salaries of these technical men are much too low; in fact they are so small that when the positions are advertised desirable persons are not attracted to them. Engineers and a great many other services are classified very much higher than technical men of this description. The result is that you get applications for the higher salaried positions and you do not get them for the lower ones. That did not start recently; it started away back when these men were taking their college courses and it was a factor in inducing them to choose some more remunerative vocation. To-day we have a number of positions such as my hon. friend has described and we have practically no applications for them. The person to whom my hon. friend particularly refers was not eligible for the position.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I cannot agree with that, because I know the circumtances. When the position became vacant by the resignation of Mr. Cunningham and was advertised by the Civil Service Commission I received a circular in connection with it and I immediately sent it to the young man in question. He is the man who has been doing the work. He acted first as assistant to Mr. Cunningham for a number of years; he has grown up in the business, and if there is any merit in the principle of promotion in the Civil Service, here is a case where that principle should be invoked. I am informed that he applied for the position but that the department refused to accept him, although he has continued to do the work. He is a New Brunswick boy-it is not necessary to send a man in from Ontario or from the United States. A man was sent in from the United States; he looked the situation over and apparently did not like the climate or the society, because he did not stay. I do not know who brought him there. I do suggest to the minister that he give that position to the young man now doing the work, who knows the ground, who is thoroughly qualified professionally and technically and who, I believe, would make a first-class official.

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William Richard Motherwell: This young man
naturally wants promotion, but he has not the post-graduate work, as I understand it, and the result is that he is not eligible for the higher position. We are making the best use we can of his services; I suppose it is better to have him there than to have no one. It just shows how far short these examinations are; he may be a better man than someone who would qualify by examination.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is it necessary that he
should have a post-graduate standing, after taking the university degree in science and having nearly ten years' practical experience in the work? That is the fact, and I think he has every qualification except that of post-graduate work. I do not recall any reference in the circular to the requirement of post-graduate work, but I am subject to correction on that point. I may add that there is not an iota of politics in this matter; I. do not know how the young man votes, and I do not care, but I would like to see justice done to him, because the principle of promotion in the service is at stake. From what I have heard he is doing the work in a reasonably satisfactory way; beyond that I would not like to go. The matter is worthy of the minister's consideration.


Mr. MARTELL:: Who determines these
qualifications? I quite agree with the hon. member for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson) that sometimes qualifications are prescribed which are absolutely non-essential. We are getting too far into this academic business. The minister suggested this afternoon that when men found they could not get very much pay in certain lines of activity they took up other professions or occupations. There are members of other professions-engineers, lawyers and doctors-who are not half as well paid as some of the so-called agricultural experts with which the minister and previous ministers, backed up by the Civil Service Commission, have been filling the country. We have too many people who are faddists and we have too many fads. I have no reason whatever to set myself up as an expert in agricultural matters, because I am not; I know very little about it. But I can get any number of practical farmers in the county of Hants who will teach him and a whole lot of his experts a good many things, in spite of their academic qualifications.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I would not like to agree
that it is not necessary to have a plant pathologist in New Brunswick, especially in
view of the magnitude of the potato business and the number of enemies that the potato plant has. All I am asking the minister is to look into one particular case, and I believe that if he gives it his personal attention and also if the deputy minister will be good enough to look into it, they will feel like doing justice to the young man to whom I refer.	*


William Richard Motherwell: The qualifications
called for in appointments of this nature are agreed upon between the Civil Service Commission and the head of the branch concerned. They have thought-wise or otherwise-that the qualification of post-graduate work should be possessed by applicants for this position, and I am free to admit that a man who has had five or ten years' practical experience might be an infinitely better man, but you cannot change these qualifications every time you advertise.


Richard Burpee Hanson: They are not like the
laws of the Medes and Persians, or like an act of parliament; they can be changed as occasion requires, by order in council.


William Richard Motherwell: So far as this
gentleman's political complexion is concerned, we have enough trouble finding out his qualifications and looking after other matters without going into that. I do not know his politics from Adam's.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I only mentioned that
because I did not like to have it thought that I advocated justice to this young man simply because he was a supporter of mine. I have not any idea what his political professions are.


Donald Sutherland: How is it that these officials are appointed by the Civil Service Commission? Are they temporary appointees? How is it that they do not appear under the head of Civil Government?


William Richard Motherwell: The civil government note takes in only the staff in the city of Ottawa.


Donald Sutherland: Would the minister inform the committee how many are engaged in the work provided for in this item? I notice that in 1920-21 the item was $140,000 less than the vote the minister is now asking the committee to pass. That is quite a considerable increase, considering the work that is being carried on. In so far as my observation goes, I have seen little evidence of the activities of those engaged in this work. When the minister was speaking of
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what was being done to control the com borer he said that once you get it in a silo it is all right. But people can put their com in a silo without paying government officials. Would the minister tell us how many officials will be paid out of this item?


William Richard Motherwell: I understand there are about forty.


Donald Sutherland: If there are forty
officials engaged on the administration of the act, what uses up the balance of the item? I think this information might be given in detail. It would facilitate the passing of the item and eliminate a good deal of the discussion.


William Richard Motherwell: Outside of the vote for live stock, the great bulk of the estimates for agriculture is for educational purposes, disseminating information throughout the country; for instance, under this item, information with respect to insect and fungus pests. There is only one medium through which we can do that work, apart from bulletins, and that is through men and women, and therefore a large amount is set aside for salaries. It is through this medium that the information is disseminated throughout the country. We have altogether something like forty or fifty inspectional services. You cannot disseminate this information by radio or long distance telephone; it has to be done through appointments, and, of course, through bulletins. If there is any other way of doing it, I do not know what it is.


Oliver Robert Gould: Reverting again to the
question of rust, I was very much interested in the information the minister gave to the committee, and in his remarks as to the manner in which the spores may be carried against a current of wind. As the minister was speaking, I recollected reading a pamphlet issued by the state of South Dakota dealing with rust in wheat. In that pamphlet is described an experiment that was carried on by the state, in one township which was suggested. The barberry bush I believe is held to be the main source if not the genesis of the rust spore. The first step in this experiment was to destroy all the barberry bushes in the segregated area. Then it was sown with wheat. One particular township where the barberry bush was known to exist was also sown with wheat without destroying the barberry bush. The result showed a return of $12,000 more in that segregated area where the barberry bush had been destroyed. I do not know whether the barberry bush is, scientifically speaking, indigenous to our western country, and I wondered if the 
department has found out whether our rust comes from this bush, or whether it is carried through the air by wind from the southern states where the bush is found.


William Richard Motherwell: The barberry bush is not thought to be the real source of rust, although there is no doubt whatever that you would have more rust in the immediate vicinity of barberry bushes. It acts as host between the two periods of the rust, and as a result you may have more rust in an area where there are barberry bushes than elsewhere. This discovery about the barberry bush was made over a hundred years ago in Europe; they have been aware of it in France and other parts of Europe for a very long time. They just knew it happened that way, but they had not worked out the real philosophy of the thing. Consequently, they started to destroy the barberry bushes believing that somehow or other they had something to do with rust. While that theory has been confirmed in later years, the barberry bush is now thought to be a source of contagion only to a very limited extent. I know that in the western provinces, in Manitoba, as well as in Ontario, they have issued instructions from the agricultural college to have these bushes exterminated because conditions have got so bad. While they did not think it was the chief source of contagion, they thought they would take no chances, and so they ordered the destruction of the barberry bush. Most authorities do not now consider it to be the chief source of contagion. I can recall as a youth that we had rust in Ontario, when winter wheat used to be a more general crop than it is now. All we knew then was that we had a sort of weather called rusty weather, with intermittent sunshine and showers, murky, calm weather, which seemed to develop rust. We know now that there are forty different varieties of rust, and when you have beaten out thirty-nine varieties, you have still one left to conquer. That is what makes this problem so difficult. It requires a good deal of patient attention because it may take several years to evolve a solution.


Mr. WARNER:: Has the department any
definite information, or any opinion even, as to whether rust would be carried over from one year to another in the seed, or whether it can live over in the land? Would it help any to put some other crop in the land after rust had been on the ground?


William Richard Motherwell: Rust is not carried by the seed nor in the land. It may be carried over by some grasses. If a disease

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like that has not the natural host plant available, it will fasten on something else. Some western grasses are thought to act as intermediary hosts-rye grass, for instance, although that has not been proved. Rust will not carry over in the seed or in the land; if it were you could treat it.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: In view of the fact
that the hon. member for York-Sunbury seems to doubt that shippers have been putting tags on potatoes that were not justified by the act, I would ask the minister if his department ever had any complaint of this kind. Has the minister ever seen any of the tags?	*


William Richard Motherwell: I understand that
we had sufficient evidence of it last year that we inserted a proviso in the regulations making it an offence.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Has the minister ever seen any of the tags?


William Richard Motherwell: No, but I understand my deputy has.


Henry Elvins Spencer: I was interested to
hear what the minister had to say with regard to the destruction of the barberry bush. Is it not a fact that there are barberry bushes at the Experimental Farm at Ottawa?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Why have they not been destroyed?


William Richard Motherwell: We are not bothered with rust. We do not grow very much wheat around here. We do some experimenting with wheat but it is not the big crop, and besides we are not affected by rust.


Mr. BLACK (Huron):: Does the minister not find that rust in oats in Ontario is as bad as rust in wheat in the West?


William Richard Motherwell: There is a lot of rust all over the country. The rust in oats my hon. friend speaks of is a different rust.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: With regard to rust or blight in potatoes does not the plant pathologist find that the near proximity of the old-fashioned rose bush affects potato fields? Has there been anything of an educational character carried on along this line among the potato growers? I have understood from our plant pathologist in New Brunswick that this was considered both by United States and by Canadian authorities to be one of the places where the blight or rust that attacks potatoes lurks.


William Richard Motherwell: I think it is a common belief when you know a thing exists that
it is due to some influence close at hand, just as the invasion of rust has been attributed in the past to these barberry bushes. With regard to rust or blight in potatoes, it is not known in even a small degree that the rose bush is the medium.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Is the minister sure of that?


William Richard Motherwell: I am not sure.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I think if the minister will consult Dr. Gussow's branch he will find a record there of the research work that has been carried on. Our own plant pathologist in New Brunswick believes this, and the belief is entertained as a result of research work carried on in the United States. We have meetings of the pathologists of the United States, including pathologists from the state of Maine which is near us, with our own plant pathologist in the province of New Brunswick, and that seems to be their opinion. I may say that Mr. Cunningham, who recently resigned the position of plant pathologist in New Brunswick, is a very excellent scientist.
I was very sorry indeed when he resigned from the position. He did more, possibly, to assist the farmers and potato growers of New Brunswick in connection with growing certified seed potatoes than any other man, and I sincerely trust that the minister will be able to get as good a man to replace him. I hope the government will not appoint to the vacant position a man who is not competent. In saying that I do not wish to make any observation derogatory to any of the applicants for the vacancy, but it is most desirable that we should have the best man possible for such a position. I urge the minister not to be satisfied until he has laid his hands upon the very best man qualified for the position, because to us in New Brunswick the growing of potatoes is just as important as is the raising of wheat to our friends in the West.


Mr. MacLEAN (Prince):: Some of the
questions that have arisen in this discussion are of very special interest to Prince Edward Island. As a matter of historical interest I wish to say that the very first enactment bearing on this question, legislation designed to curb the inroads of the Colorado beetle, was passed by the legislature of Prince Edward Island in 1883. The point raised by the hon. member (Mr. Caldwell) regarding seed potatoes is very important to us as well as the matter of inspection. We have not had the complaints to which he has referred, although a number of growers have made shipments apart from the association. All potatoes that are shipped through the associa-
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tion are certified and carefully inspected. There are two field inspections; there is a careful bin inspection, and then another inspection before the bags are sewed and tagged. The growing of seed potatoes is really a new industry with us, it is just in its infancy; and we would like to have any assistance that could possibly be given. There is only a very limited time between the digging and marketing of the potatoes, and our difficulties have to do with transportation and inspection. I understand the department is now looking into the mat-;er of a further reduction of freight rates on lertified seed potatoes. This is moving in the right direction and we would like to have further assurances that this concession will go through. I would ask if it is the intention of the department to fix a fee for the inspection work in connection with seed potatoes which will take care of the cost? Is it intended to introduce regulations under which a charge will be made to the associations for inspectors, or is this work to be carried on by the officials of the department?


William Richard Motherwell: That is a question. We have been considering for the last year whether this inspection service should be carried at the expense of the men who get the service or not. In the inspection of our wheat out in the West every car carries, I think, a charge of ninety cents. It used to be sixty-five cents but the cars are larger now and it really amounts to about the same. That charge largely carries the expense of inspection. Now whether or not that system should be carried out all along the line I have some doubt. In regard to the popular work that means so much to the people, especially at a time like this when every charge places a little bit more on the producer's shoulders, we hesitate to do this. I do not know that it can be claimed that it is not a just charge. When you receive a service why should you not pay for it? However, the work is largely educational and as the hon member for Hants (Mr. Martell) indicated, when there are still some doubting Thomases throughout the country as to the value of such services, we feel that we cannot impose such a charge. The same question has been raised in regard to the inspection and grading of cheese and butter, which is assuming large proportions and involving large expense to the country. When I fail to get a sufficient vote to carry on this class of educational work, we shall have nothing else left but to give up the work or else impose a charge on every one that receives a service. In older countries than Canada, I understand, that is the practice, each service

carries itself; but imagine trying to impose a fee at this time in respect of the grading of hogs or the grading of eggs? The work has not yet become sufficiently established to warrant us in irritating the people further by passing new regulations for the imposition of a fee. In reply to the question of my hon. friend from Prince Edward Island (Mr. MacLean) I may say,-not for the present.


Mr. MICHAUD:: On the 25th March last
I put a question on the order paper as follows :
1.	At whose request or demand does the Canadian Horticultural Council propose to change the grading of potatoes in the province of New Brunswick?
2.	Is the government aware of any complaints made about the present grading of potatoes in said province?
3.	If so, who made said complaints?
I received the following answer:
1.	The Canadian Horticultural Council has no jurisdiction over the matter or changing potato grades.
2.	No.
3.	Answered by No. 2.
We in the province of New Brunswick are very anxious to find out how far the Canadian Horticultural Council can go in the matter of grading potatoes in that province.


William Richard Motherwell: I think, Mr. Chairman, the answer is there although it might be elaborated. This is a very important body of men who have to do with horticulture. Their work also extends to vegetables, including potatoes, and I understand they did make certain recommendations with respect to this matter.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Do I understand that
potatoes come under the heading of "horticulture?"


William Richard Motherwell: They are usually
considered as coming under that head, not because of the bloom, but fruit and vegetables are usually grouped together, and fruit comes under the horticulture class. But this body, I may say, like any other body, I think, have considered themselves of sufficient importance and with sufficient knowledge of the business to make a recommendation, just as my hon. friend might make a recommendation, suggesting a change. But as we get recommendations from all over the country, from organizations and from individuals, I presume this recommendation may have come in from them. But the reason this impression has gone abroad, I think, is that one of the officers of the Horticultural Council is also an officer of the Fruit branch, and because of that fact possibly it was thought the recommendation came from them.

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Pius Michaud: I appreciate the information my hon. friend the minister has given us.
If I were to give the government a little advice, I would say that I think we have been doing too much grading lately in too many lines. People are becoming afraid to go into the business of production or into any other lines in the farming business. It is about time we gave them a chance to produce, and we could deal- with the matter of grading later on. I think there has been too much grading in many lines of farm products.


William Richard Motherwell: My hon. friend
across the chamber does not think so.


Donald Sutherland: I am glad to hear
my hon. friend on the other side of the House make the statement he has just made. I think if we have a public nuisance in this country at the present time, it is the horde of officials who have been appointed by the government to hamper the farmer in his operations. The cost is simply enormous. I notice by a return brought down in the House of Commons last year that over $2,500,000 was paid to officials of this department alone, and at the present time my attention is continually being called to the annoyance created by the interference of government officials who are not rendering any public service. This is a serious matter. We know that agriculture is in a depressed condition, and that serious complaints are being made in regard to the condition of agriculture. At the same time we have the minister continually introducing new legislation and appointing a whole army of officials to put those different acts into effect. The minister has just referred to the regulations with regard to cheese, butter, hogs and eggs. It would be interesting to know how many officials have been appointed as a result of those acts which have been put into effect. As far as the egg regulations are concerned, I take it that there are people out now enforcing the act. that penalties are being imposed, and people are being fined. But there is a way for them to evade the act by simply marking the goods that are "selects" as "seconds." They can get. around it in that way, and I would venture to say' that there is not one person in five hundred who understands how the grading of eggs should be carried on-I mean among those * who are engaged in that business. If there is a petty annoying thing in this country at this time it is the meddlesome interference of the minister and his officials in this regard. I put some questions on the order paper the other day with regard to the army of officials in the packing houses of the country, as to the 67
"selects" among the hogs that were being taken in, and I learned that less than fifteen per cent of the animals that have been graded this year passed as "selects." When I asked the minister what quantity of meat that came through the packing house was sold as "select," no information was available, and yet there is an army of officials in the pay of the government in the packing houses, and the minister has no information from them; but he takes good care that the farmer is discriminated against when he brings his animals in. The minister has just raised the maximum weight of select hogs by ten pounds, which indicates that he made a mistake last year.


William Richard Motherwell: Not at all.


Donald Sutherland: Does the hon.
minister say, no?


William Richard Motherwell: Oh yes, I made
the regulations, but I did not make a mistake.


Donald Sutherland: As a result of that
a great deal of money has been lost to the farmers. The cheese has been graded out and paid for according to grade, and I undfer-stand that when it is shipped out of the country it loses its identity, that the grade is not fixed upon it and it is not sold according to grade, but it is bought according to grade.


Mr. SALES:: On a point of order, does
the hon. member regard the graders as insect pests?


Donald Sutherland: The hon. member
might better have called the minister to order when he was dealing with this matter.


George Newcombe Gordon: On the point of order,
I think the hon. member is comparing those administering other acts with those administering this act. I do not think he is out of order, as far as he has gone.


Donald Sutherland: I did not intend
to violate the rules of the House; I was referring to matters which the minister touched upon. I asked a question as to the number of employees in connection with this item which is now before the House. I must have misunderstood the minister, but I thought he said about forty. I have the public accounts here; I have run over them, and I think there are about a hundred and forty.


William Richard Motherwell: No. There are
about forty permanent and forty temporary.


Donald Sutherland: I make it somewhere in the neighbourhood of 140. The in-

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crease in this item of $70,000 two years ago and $70,000 last year makes $140,000 of a total increase, and the minister's explanation in regard to rust must have been surely amusing to those who have some knowledge as to the operation of rust in this country, how it could be controlled, and how it will blow over a great distance. It is no unusual thing	to see a big crop	on one side	of	thefence	affected with rust,	and a crop	on	theother	side of the fence	not affected	at	all.It would be .interesting	to know the	results
obtained in Ontario. The minister has a great deal of information as to what is being done in western Canada, but in regard to the corn borer, which is undoubtedly something 'that should be controlled, I think more effective methods should be adopted than the methods at present in use, and that someone with better knowledge of conditions than those engaged in the work should be employed. It is not a matter that can be controlled. The minister says, it is a matter of education. All these things are of an educational nature.
Referring to the question of eggs, I think the minister will soon be insisting upon having an X-ray examination of all the eggs laid in this country. This matter is becoming unbearable. It is discouraging the farmers of the country more than anything I know of. I refer, by way of illustration, to what is being done in the grading of hogs. Why do the packers not grade those animals themselves, as they do in the case of the beef animals? The minister is not appointing men to act in such a capacity in the case of beef animals but the matter is arranged to suit the convenience of people, in order to take advantage of the people producing the animals. The minister says "We are going to educate them." Yes, but you are discouraging them and driving them out of the business. This item is along the lines to which I have referred in connection with the other matters.
The grading of cheese has created a condition which is just as pronounced as the condition in regard to the grading of eggs.


William Richard Motherwell: That will be the next item.


Donald Sutherland: And I am mentioning this to show that it is not just one item but a great number of items of a similar nature that are not at all promoting the agricultural industry, but are hampering it and costing the country enormous sums of money. I think economy should be prac-

tised in the Department of Agriculture, just as it ought to be practised everywhere else.


William Richard Motherwell: I always like to listen to my hon. friend when he speaks, because I can hear him. In that respect I am unfortunate with regard to some of the members of this House. Maybe it would be as well if I did not hear some of his remarks. May I remind my hon. friend that one of the first times I had the honour of having him call upon me at my office, he called for the purpose of having a change in the Feeding Stuffs Act, and I did not do it the first year or the next year, but finally I did it. My hon. friend is one of those who have wanted these acts amended. When it suits the purposes of his particular territory he asks for an amendment and that necessarily involves work for the officials. That is only one of the many acts that have been changed and I myself believe that it was time to change it. Now, which one of these services would my hon. friend suggest giving up? I may inform the committee, by the way, that I shall have one small amendment this year to submit to the House in connection with the Feeding Stuffs Act, because last year we went too far in attempting to please my hon. friend. I am sure he will give me credit for having tried to meet his wishes. His position agreed entirely with my own but the Justice department has decided that we went further than probably either he or I intended. Apart from that, however, I have not in view at present any legislation to bring down. It is considered that the public are about surfeited with regulations and restrictive legislation, but we must bear in mind nevertheless that in these matters we are not entirely free agents. We are competing with the world in a common market in Great Britain, and when other nations display their goods there in certain conditions that appeal to the people we must follow suit or we shall find that our goods will not be accepted. As a result of the grading of eggs it is gratifying to know that we stand first in Great Britain in storage eggs, and that is some consolation. I realise exactly what my hon. friend says, that all these restrictions are irritating at the beginning; and there is a whole lot of joshing and fun made in connection with them. I too am ready to take my part in the fun, and if I were in my hon. friend's place across the floor-because such strange things do happen sometimes-I might quite possibly be doing exactly the same thing and indulging a propensity for joke-making in reference to bugs and insects and one thing and other. I am accustomed to all that sort of thing,

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and there is really no harm in it. But when it is all over I am sure the agriculturists both in this country and elsewhere would be very much worse off if there were no restrictions to control the spread of insect and fungus diseases. Apart from that, and a few other things, I have no criticism to make of my hon. friend's remarks. If there is any question that I have failed to clear up, I am afraid I have lost sight of it in trying to straighten the hon. gentleman out. All other matters are out of order and we shall come to them if my hon. friend will have some patience.


Donald Sutherland: I wish to compliment the minister before he gets away from this subject.


Mr. LAPOINTE:: Compliment, did you
say?


Donald Sutherland: Yes, surely. I criticised some of his actions and he thought that I should have given him credit instead. Well, I am going to give him all the credit to which he is entitled when we reach the item concerned, and I would point out to the minister that it is an altogether different matter from this. The adulteration of mill feeds is something entirely different from the regulations to which I have been referring.


William Richard Motherwell: Quite true, but it involves a restriction nevertheless, and that is what the people object to.


Donald Sutherland: It was not purely restrictive, for it ensured purity.


William Richard Motherwell: So it did, but that is a restrictive regulation.


Donald Sutherland: I have given the minister credit on many occasions for what he has done, but I simply wanted to point out to him that the mill feeds adulteration was altogether different from this.


William Richard Motherwell: Thank you.


Mr. SINCLAIR (Queens, P.E.I.):: I might say a word in reference to the inspectors referred to by my hon. friend (Mr. Sutherland) and some other hon. members who have spoken this afternoon. I believe that the money expended on inspection under the Department of Agriculture is one of the most successful uses to which the public money can be put in this country. In eastern Canada especially,' we have in the production of seed potatoes a splendid service, and the inspection gives a certification for our crop which we are able to sell in the United States where we have developed a market by introducing our pota-67-i
toes and have had them tried out by the experimental stations in that country. This is the only bright outlook in Maritime agriculture at the present time, apart from the ordinary line of dairy farming; and when hon. gentlemen suggest reductions by cutting out the inspection of potatoes it seems to me that they are proposing something that is altogether detrimental to the interests of the country. I was rather encouraged to hear my hon. friend from South Oxford say that some of the inspectors were not as highly qualified as they should be, because the hon. gentleman's colleague (Mr. Hanson) a few moments ago was urging that the qualifications were too high and should be reduced to a lower standard. I cannot agree with the hon. member for York-Sunbury in that regard, because I think it is of the utmost importance to keep up the qualifications of these inspectors. It is admitted by those who have studied the production of seed potatoes that the territory that lies east and south of the St. Lawrence river, east of the town of Levis in Quebec, in the Maritime provinces, and in part of the state of Maine, is the natural ground for the production of seed potatoes on the North American continent, and if properly safeguarded to keep out disease which is so prevalent in large potato growing areas we may hope in the future to develop the production of valuable seed potatoes. That would encourage the farmers in that locality to produce a crop that is indigenous to their country. But if we do not pay strict attention to the qualifications of our inspectors and see to it that a rigid inspection is maintained in order that disease may be kept down to the minimum, we shall not benefit to the extent that we should, in that part of the country. Let me give an illustration of what it means to us to keep down disease in our potato crop. During the past season in Prince Edward Island we have produced about three hundred carloads of seed potatoes, 93 per cent, of which, upon inspection, were certified. In New Brunswick the farmers have been growing potatoes on a larger scale for some years than in Prince Edward Island and consequently they have a little more disease in their fields and among their potato stock than we have. So that of the acreage that was entered for inspection in New Brunswick last year only 67 per cent, obtained certification. That will demonstrate the necessity for a rigid control of disease in potato crops, especially in connection with seed potatoes. Last year in Prince Edward Island there were six inspectors to handle the crop. Two or three of them were men who are employed the year round, the rest being engaged for a few months. This

Suppl y-A gricvl ture
year we have increased by about 50 per cent, the acreage that will be inspected and it will be necessary to have more inspectors. I believe that this is pre-eminently a work in which the government should take a leading part. It means a great deal to the farmers of the Maritime provinces and part of the province of Quebec to safeguard the seed potato industry. We can go over a tariff wall, which amounts to 35 cents per bushel, into the United States market and sell our product and make the American grower pay the duty. And potatoes are about the only thing that we can grow in eastern Canada on which we can make the Americans pay their own duty. For that reason the seed potato industry is valuable from the national standpoint as well as to those who are engaged in the industry, and hon. members who advocate cutting down the work of inspection are advocating something which is decidedly not in the best interests of agriculture in this country and especially in the Maritime provinces.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I do not want to
disagree with my hon. friend (Mr. Sinclair) in regard to the percentage of potatoes entered for inspection in New Brunswick as compared with the quantity inspected in Prince Edward Island. There was, however, another reason besides the one he gave. Last year potatoes that were 5 per cent diseased were passed as certified seed. The regulations were changed last year, and this year potatoes would pass with only 2 per cent of disease. They had to be 98 per cent pure, whereas last year they passed if they were 95 per cent pure. Before the potato growers of New Brunswick realized that the regulations had been changed, a large number of them had purchased their seed. In fact, there was no way of knowing whether the potatoes that were certified were 5, 4, 3 or 2 per cent diseased, because they were certified if they were 95 per cent pure. I got caught myself in that way. Last year I bought some seed, and I learned afterwards that it was a little more than 4 per cent diseased. Had I known that this regulation had been passed-I did not know until it was too late-I would not have purchased that seed. In the same way large numbers of farmers last year planted potatoes that were 3 or 4 per cent diseased. I know the hon. member for Queen's (Mr. Sinclair) would not want to leave the impression that we have more disease amongst our potatoes, so I would like to correct him. The reason why a smaller part of our crop passed inspection last year was on account of the change in the regulations which the farmers were not aware of when they planted their seed, and

they planted seed that, had they known of the change in the regulations, they would not have planted.


John Ewen Sinclair: I did
not intend making that reference in any way to reflect upon the percentage of disease prevalent in New Brunswick. As regards the percentage of disease in certified potatoes, the important matter is what kind of disease it is. If there are certain diseases like mosaic found in the growing crop, we cannot get it certified. If the disease is wilt or blackleg or rhizoctonia, tve allow 3 per cent. There are other diseases which I need not enumerate, but it all depends on what kind of disease is found, what percentage is allowed for certification. If the disease is powdery scab, we do not allow any of those potatoes to be certified. I can assure the hon. gentleman that I was not making any reflection on the province of New Brunswick. I was showing the committee the necessity of having rigid inspection in order to keep disease in check and not to allow it to spread any more in the eastern provinces. I was citing New Brunswick on account of the longer time people there have been engaged in growing potatoes on a large scale. When the American duty was taken off potatoes a few years ago, the development in potato growing was very great, especially amongst those who were near the line and who grew table stock for shipment to the New England market. During the time when inspection was not so rigid for table stock, the disease spread rapidly, in fact, more rapidly than we hoped to allow it to spread, through other parts of the Maritime provinces.


Mr. FANSHER:: This discussion has dealt with pests in western Canada, and pests in eastern Canada. As, however, has been mentioned by the hon. member for South Oxford (Mr. Sutherland), there is a pest that has invaded Ontario lately, namely, the European corn borer. I should like to know of the minister how many have been employed during the last year in combating this pest, with what success their efforts have been rewarded, and what was the cost during the last year of fighting this pest.


William Richard Motherwell: I think ten inspectors are engaged in this work. The infection is spreading from the west of Ontario to the eastern part of Ontario. Just from memory, I think there are thirty or possibly thirty-two counties affected. The remedies that have been applied in the Welland and Essex counties, where the infection started principally, because those are the

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com counties, are showing their results in the invasions becoming more or less circumscribed. This is being done to a large extent by the activities of the farmers themselves. The hon. member for South Oxford made light of the fact that by putting the com into the silo early, many of these bugs were silent, they were canned with the corn, but if you left that over until too late, they would not be. That is an important fact. In addition to that, the fanners by their own observations have found that tillage at a certain time and to a certain depth will bury those insect pests, just as we do many of our insect pests on the prairies by fall ploughing, thus getting rid of them for the time being.
And the Speaker having resumed the chair.



THE ROYAL ASSENT SUSPENSION OP SITTING

Mr. SPEAKER:: I have the honour to in-from the House that I have received the following letter:
Ottawa, April 4, 1924.
Sir,
I have the honour to inform you that the Right Hon. Sir Louis Davies, K.C.M.G., acting as Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General, will proceed to the Senate chamber this afternoon at five-thirty o'clock for the purpose of giving the royal assent to th# Interim Supply Bill.
James F. Crowdy,
Deputy of the Governor General's Secretary.
A message was delivered by Colonel Ernest
J.	Chambers, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:
Mr. Speaker, His Honour, the Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General, desires the immediate attendance of this honourable House in the chamber of the honourable the Senate.
Accordingly, the House went up to the Senate.
And having returned,
Mr. SPEAKER informed the House that the Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General had been pleased to give in His Majesty's name the royal assent to the following bill:
An Act for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service for the fiscal year ending the 31st March, 1925.



DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

[Stage Direction]
The House resumed in Committee of Supply.
Administration and enforcement of Destructive Insect and Pest Act, $230,000.
Edward Joseph Garland: I would like to ask the minister to give a brief but, if possible, a comprehensive survey of the work of the department in the administration of the Destructive Insect and Pest Act. The discussion so far has been away from the item under consideration, and the question asked by the hon. member (Mr. Fansher) is the only one that really touches the subject. We are anxious to know what work has been done during the past year, where it has been done and what it has cost in each province.


William Richard Motherwell: I was in the act of answering that when the committee had to rise for something equally important. I was reciting some of the activities that were being engaged in with the idea of restricting or, if possible, eliminating altogether the European corn borer in Ontario. I have mentioned the quarantining of these districts, and I may point out that the quarantined areas are not permitted to sell corn on the cob for seed purposes outside of their districts, because the disease is transmissible by that medium. In answer to the hon. member for East Lambton (Mr. Fansher) I may say that the cost of the activities of this branch is divided up as follows: scout work: one foreman inspector of insect pests, three months at $85 per month, $255. It is very difficult to give the exact figures, because this corn borer season does not last the year round. We have permanent inspectors and in addition to that we have temporary inspectors at the peak season. Then, five scout inspectors of insect pests, two months at $75, $750; two scout inspectors of insect pests, six months at $75, $900; two foreman inspectors of insect pests, two months at $85, $340; travelling expenses, $2,430; total, $4,675. I do not know to what extent that answers the question of my hon. friend from Bow River.


Edward Joseph Garland: If that is the only work done in connection with the administration of the Destructive Insect and Pest Act it answers my question, but if other *work has been done in other provinces I should like to know it.


William Richard Motherwell: We have always
given a certain amount of assistance in the way of co-operation with the western provinces, in the extermination of grasshoppers, for instance, although that has been done largely by the provinces and the municipalities working in conjunction with our officers. We have about eighteen or twenty laboratories doing this class of work all over the Dominion, generally in conjunction with the experimental farms. The laboratory is not
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always located on the farm. In the case of Fredericton, for instance, it is down in the city; at Agassiz it is located on the farm. The work is not confined to any one province, but is done all over the Dominion, wherever you find insect pests.


Edward Joseph Garland: What was
the nature of the work done in connection with the Universtity of Saskatchewan? I think about $17,000 was spent there.


William Richard Motherwell: That was in connection with fungus diseases. At the University of Saskatchewan it was the rust proposition.


Edward Joseph Garland: How much was spent in each province last year on the administration of this act?


William Richard Motherwell: I have not the figures on the basis of provinces, but on the basis of the work done by the laboratories, which are made the centre of the operations.


Edward Joseph Garland: Then let
the minister give the total amount spent in each laboratory in the different sections of the country, so we can discover whether the act has been administered properly, and whether this amount is necessary.


William Richard Motherwell: I have not the
totals here, but I will try and get them fo? my hon. friend during the dinner hour.


Mr. MacKELVIE:: Can the minister tell
us what has been done in the direction of eradicating the codling moth in British Columbia?


William Richard Motherwell: That is a rather
persistent disease. It affects our apple orchards, and it requires eternal vigilance to prevent the spread of the infection. A good deal can be done by the fumigation of empty cars that have brought up American fruit from the south, and every precaution is taken in that direction, as well as certain treatments in the orchards. But it is a very persistent pest, like some of our weed pests. I do not know whether we will ever get rid of it, but by keeping close watch on it we can curtail its ravages. The thing is to localize it; to exterminate it, is not an easy matter. I have here a memorandum on the codling moth, as follows:
Originally a native of southeastern Europe, the codling moth has now become nearly cosmopolitan. Early records in Ontario indicate that this insect was present in destructive numbers in 1868, so it must have been in the province many years before that time. At present it is particularly destructive in eastern Canada, with limited infested areas in British Columbia. It is recorded as causing an annual loss in Ontario of about $2,000,000. The adult moth lays its 
eggs on the leaves and the caterpillars on hatching enter the young apples usually at the calyx end. The remedy is to spray the trees with an arsenical mixture such as lead arsenate at definite periods, the first application to be made when 75 per cent of the petals have fallen.
That is, just after the blossoming period. I do not know what would happen if we did not keep after this pest.


John Armstrong MacKelvie: Has there been any
decrease in the infected area during the past year?


William Richard Motherwell: I fear not; it is
holding its own. If we want to eliminate it more rapidly we would have to increase our staff, I presume, and we have limitations in that respect.


Burt Wendell Fansher: Does the minister consider the European corn borer a very destructive pest, and if so, how destructive?


William Richard Motherwell: It is destructive
in this way; it honeycombs the stalks to such an extent that they fall over in the wind, and that makes it very difficult for the binder to cut them. I have not been down here long enough to say just -how much it interferes with the crop, but the stalks I have examined would be perforated all the way up with little holes about the size of a darning needle, and would blow over in the wind, making it very difficult for the binder to cut them. The -hon. member for Welland, as well as others informed -me during the first of the session that the farmers in Essex county are beginning to handle 'this pest in such a way that they are ceasing to be alarmed about it; they can control it, and it is not nearly such a terror to them as it was when it first visited the country. They are doing that by local methods.


Burt Wendell Fansher: How destructive is the
corn borer in the country from which it
comes?


William Richard Motherwell: I understand that in the country of its origin it has a parasitic enemy which limits the extent of its depredation. Without that enemy its ravages become pretty extensive and pretty rapid.


Burt Wendell Fansher: Why is the parasite not brought here?


William Richard Motherwell: We are introducing it artificially just as we are doing with the parasites of other pests, and as we are doing in connection with the spruce budworm.


Alfred Edgar MacLean: I understand that under regulations that came into force in

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September 1923 seed potatoes from an infected district are prohibited from being sold in other districts. Does the same provision apply to potatoes imported from sections that are known to be affected by the potato wart disease? That disease is practically not known in Canada as yet.


William Richard Motherwell: No. I presume if the infection ever got a start and it was thought to be serious we should have to adopt a quarantine.


Mr. JOHNSTON:: Have any experiments
been carried on with a view to the destruction of the wheat stem sawfly which attacks wheat in western Canada?


William Richard Motherwell: That has been left largely to the provinces. That also is controlled to a very large extent by deep fall ploughing. The little maggot larva after cutting around the wheat straw and letting it fall over, goes down the straw to within two inches of the ground and winters there. But if the stubble is ploughed in the fall, or burnt, or in any way destroyed, it substantially controls future depredations. It will not control the operations of this pest altogether but it helps very substantially. This is such a very ingenious insect that it taxes the ingenuity of man to get the better of it. In spite of different devices adopted for its control, it is still there and getting worse.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Mr. SPENCE:: When the committee adjourned at six o'clock we were discussing the item for the administration of the Destructive Insect and Pest Act. There is also an item under the head of entomology. Both of these items should be discussed together. Very few of us know very much about entomology and I think the hon. minister knows just about as much as the rest of us. I know very little, and I think hon. members of the House know just as little.


Robert Forke: Speak for yourself.


William Richard Motherwell: Each hon. member
should make his own confession.


David Spence: The hon. minister would
have no reason to understand entomology very well because this branch has been established in the last few years in connection
with the Agriculture department and very few of us know very much about it.
You are to be congratulated, Mr. Chairman, on the display of such a great amount of patience this afternoon, listening to members discussing everything, and travelling all over the lot. Whoever heard of the grading of eggs or butter or cheese? Someone suggested an embargo on beans, and someone suggested the appointment of a pathologist in connection with entomology. I never heard of such a thing in my life. There is no doubt the department has been more or less extravagant but why should hon. members waste so much time discussing a matter of this kind? The hon. member for Victoria and Carleton (Mr. Caldwell) made a strong charge this afternoon against the potato dealers of New Brunswick, and I am sorry he had to make that charge, because I hate to hear of men in that walk of life resorting to such trickery in regard to the grading of potatoes, particularly the grading of seed potatoes, whether it is government certificated seed or just ordinary seed potatoes. I think the Minister of Agriculture and his department should investigate a charge of that kind. I have probably at the present time a thousand bags of seed potatoes which I paid for. I think I got just what I paid for, and I have always got a good decent deal from the dealers in New Brunswick, but this would not apply to the cases cited by the hon. member. I know something about the duties of the Entomological branch, being an importer of nursery stock, shrubbery, rose bushes and such things as that, but I must confess I know very little about entomology. However, I am a thorough believer in the inspection of foreign importations, or any importations, because it is absolutely necessary to keep away pests and plagues of one kind and another. I am not a believer in so much money being spent in embalming bugs and things of that kind, packing them away in mahogany cases, and having a whole department looking after them, in order to prevent them walking away at some future time. I contend, Mr. Chairman, that there are too many men in this country who imagine that they are inventing something new, but who in reality are preparing jobs for themselves and probably at the same time advocating the establishment of new departments, and services. We have to depend on somebody in regard to entomology. None of us knows what this item may cost, and I would ask the hon. minister to study a little economy in connection with it because somebody has to be depended on to give us a square deal in the matter. I hope in
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the future, when the Minister of Agriculture is asked a question by any member of this House, he will be in a position to give a decided answer in regard to expenditure. I had trouble in that regard the other day. Hon. members to my left asked several questions and in each case he did not refuse to answer but quibbled around in order to avoid answering. He would never give a decided answer as to the cost of a particular department. I do not wish to criticize him too much, but he deserves a little criticism in that line. I do not think he deserves criticism along the lines of entomology because he has no knowledge of that subject. He could not be expected to have any knowledge, but in future I hope the minister will give a decided answer when he is asked a pointed question and be candid with the House because that is something he is lacking in.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order, order.


David Spence: If I am out of order I will apologize, but three days ago, I tried to get information regarding the cost of the central farm at Ottawa, and up to the present time I have not been able to get an answer. I think the item should either be abandoned or put through.


William Richard Motherwell: I have to admit,
Mr. Chairman, that I certainly do not know all about entomology but I think I can tell my hon. friend that pathologists have been appointed in connection with that subject. I suppose he never heard of such a thing as a plant pathologist.


David Spence: Oh, yes.


William Richard Motherwell: So that I have the satisfaction of knowing there is one hon. member who knows less than I do.


David Spence: I wish to say-


William Richard Motherwell: The hon. gentleman will not feel sore about it. I was not saying very much, you know.
The hon. gentleman from Bow River (Mr. Garland) asked a question in regard to the entomological end of the vote, by provinces, and two members of my staff have prepared a statement. I will give the figures by provinces leaving out the odd figures. They are as follows:
New Brunswick	$21,000
Nova Scotia	 24,000
Quebec	 14,000
Ontario	 42,000
Manitoba	  7,000
Saskatchewan	 11,000
Alberta	 11,000
British Columbia	 19,000
tMr. Spence.]
These are the sums spent for the respective provinces in connection with the entomological end.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I am very much interested in what has been said this afternoon concerning the importance of the seed potato trade. This is a business that not only interests the Maritime provinces, but also the province on the Pacific coast. I would very much regret it if there is to be any laxity in the regulations governing seed potatoes. We are building up a good market, and it must be maintained at all costs, and strict grading and strict inspection of potatoes kept up, so that the certificate from the government which accompanies them will have some value and be a guarantee of their quality. As regards the co-operation of the Dominion and the provincial departments, the fnin-ister might inform the committee what precautions are taken to obviate overlapping, and what line of demarcation exists between provincial operations and those of the federal department. In view of the great importance of this seed potato trade, it would be interesting to know what increase has taken place in recent years. Regarding inspection and grading generally, if we are to compete in the export markets of the world with countries where a careful system of grading and inspection is observed, such for instance as New Zealand, Denmark and other places on the European continent, Canada will have to be as strict with the goods she exports as these countries are. As regards the question of contagious diseases not only of animals but of plants as well, and the work of entomology generally, it simply means that we cannot afford to let go. No matter how much we may talk in this House, no matter what politics we may play in the country, the bacteria will be as active as ever; and it is imperative for us to meet the situation.
I am quite sure that if there is any laxity in carrying out the regulations we shall not retain the high record which we have to-day for the health of Canadian cattle and the quality of Canadian products.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dairying, $230,000.
Milton Neil Campbell: The amount of money spent under this head in 1922 was SI 47.000 and in 1923 $158,000. What is the explanation for the increase?


William Richard Motherwell: There is no increase over the vote of last year.


Milton Neil Campbell: I am referring to the
actual amount spent last year which, accord-

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mg to the Auditor General's report, was only
1158,000.


William Richard Motherwell: We had certain research work provided for last year but we were unable to obtain a man to do it, with the result that that work had to be abandoned. There were certain other works that we were able to have done without the expenditure that we had anticipated, but the principal reason for our not having used the whole vote was our inability to carry out the work we had planned by reason of not having secured the necessary officer. We had contemplated research work in bacteriology especially in connection with bacteria in cheese. We have since secured the services of a bacteriologist for that work and we shall therefore require to meet the expenses in connection therewith. There is also a certain amount of work to be undertaken in the way of cow testing, not for tuberculosis but for quantity and quality of milk. Some of the provinces are doing that work; the western provinces, particularly Saskatchewan and a part of Manitoba, and Nova Scotia as well, have gone in for it.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Does the work of cow testing come under this vote?


William Richard Motherwell: It did at that time but we are transferring it to the Live Stock branch.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What is the department
doing to secure better export markets for our dairy products?


William Richard Motherwell: There is a vote
further on with reference to that subject.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I should like to know
what steps the department is taking in this very important matter at a time when the farmers are suffering from restricted markets.


William Richard Motherwell: We have a
special representative in the Old Country looking after Canada's interests in the plac>* ing on the markets over there not only her dairy products, bacon and eggs, but all other exports as well. So far only a start has been made but good results are anticipated. In addition, we have a number of cargo inspectors here whose duty it is to see that our goods are placed on board the boats in proper condition and are not shunted around unduly, although in spite of all precautions a great many of our containers such for instance as cheese boxes, are pretty badly racked before they reach their destination. We have cargo inspectors on the other side also to look after warehousing and the handling of goods after they have reached
the Old Country. These men make sure that perishable goods particularly, such as butter, shall not remain on the wharves too long nor be exposed to temperatures and otherwise be subject to deterioration, before the persons to whom they are shipped can put them in cold storage. These are some of the things that are being done, but there is still a tremendous work to accomplish if we are to keep pace with our principal competitors.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What is the name of the official to whom the minister refers?


William Richard Motherwell: Mr. W. A. Wilson.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Was he formerly manager of the Saskatchewan Creamery?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Did he make a success
of that business?


William Richard Motherwell: He did when I
was there.


Richard Burpee Hanson: He did when the minister was there; that is a qualification. But after the minister left how did he succeed?


William Richard Motherwell: I can speak only
from personal knowledge. I cannot be expected to look after the business up there and administer the department here. At the same time I understand that there has been some complaint about the administration since then.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is it not a fact that he
was a huge failure in the position he occupied in Saskatchewan, and that the minister shunted him to Great Britain? If so, how can he hope to be successful over there?


William Richard Motherwell: You will have to
ask the Civil Service Commission.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Did the minister not
have anything to do with his appointment? Did he not recommend him?


William Richard Motherwell: I did.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Of course you did.


William Richard Motherwell: And a good many others recommended him too, and the Civil Service Commission can be congratulated on the best appointment they have made since I have been here.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What results has he obtained since going over there? Let us have something tangible for the salaries we pay.
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William Richard Motherwell: He has been
there only since last September, but he has made a number of recommendations with regard to the cheese and butter business particularly. As I intimated this afternoon, the amount of restrictive legislation passed by this House within the last few years has been complained of to such an extent that I do not feel that it is advisable at this time, no matter how pressing the requirements may be, to bring down any further legislation of that nature. But strong recommendations	have	come	from Mr.	Wilson tostandardize the cheese and butter boxes. They are not standardized now, and the change would necessitate making a different sized	hoop.	That	of course	would costmoney, but I think it will have to be done some time in order to have the cheeses fit the boxes properly. At present the cheese is sometimes about an inch smaller in diameter than the box with the result that in the handling of loosely packed boxes of this kind	the	cases	often fall	to pieces.
We could bring down legislation this year as we have enough information from him to justify that with regard to both cheese boxes and butter boxes; but at the conference held recently at Ottawa before the session opened, it was thought better to get further information before we made that change and necessitated that expenditure in our cheese factories. That is some of the work in which he has been engaged. We have enough information from him to warrant a number of changes being made to meet present market conditions, but we feel that the time is not ripe to make those changes. The people, as I have intimated this afternoon, have had sufficient restrictive legislation for the time being. There is a timely time to do th:ngs and that is not quite just now.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The answer made by the minister is not an answer to my question. What results have been obtained and what benefits have come to the country as a result of the trip of the dairy commissioner to New Zealand and Australia last year?


William Richard Motherwell: It was Mr. Ruddick, the present dairy commissioner, who established, you might say, the present dairy industry in New Zealand when he was there as dairy commissioner something over twenty years ago. His work is being followed up there by a Mr. Singleton. From experience, we find that the New Zealanders are setting the pace for Canada, in fact, for almost every other country, except Denmark as regards putting goods on the British market in an
!Mr. Hanson.]
exceptionally good condition. Since I have had the honour of coming to Ottawa, we have had New Zealanders visit Canada. It is quite the thing for a prominent dairyman in every dairying country to visit countries that are their chief rivals in order to hear the last word in dairying. If there is anything that can be secured and applied to their respective countries, they take it home and apply it. Mr. Ruddick wanted to see just how the people of New Zealand were excelling Canada in the matter of butter-making and cheesemaking too. He found out many of their more recent methods, some of which are not applicable to conditions in Canada because of our small cheese factories. For instance, as regards the question of pasteurization, although it is generally understood that the appetite or taste in Great Britain is pretty well fixed for a certain type of cheese or butter, nevertheless all those in authority there are of one accord that the appetite for both butter and cheese in the Old Country is changing. The people there want the milder cheese, one that is made from pasteurized milk, and we find that practically all the milk in New Zealand is pasteurized before it is made into cheese. The same thing applies to cream and butter. That is something which we are drawing to the attention of farmers in Canada, also; but unfortunately in this country where the factories are so small, they cannot afford to put in a pasteurizing plant for the small quantity of business done in one factory. Consequently, we are starting on a policy of encouraging the people, as they start new factories, to build combined ones, butter and cheese, and larger ones, so that the output will warrant employment of first class men and putting in pasteurizing plants to meet the taste of the British market with milder cheese which can be made only with pasteurized milk. These are some of the results of his visit. I might tell the committee some of the others.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I am sure the committee will be pleased to hear of other results of the visit of this gentleman to New Zealand. What was the nature of the difficulty into which this gentleman got in New Zealand, and how does the matter now stand?


William Richard Motherwell: I do not understand the question, and my deputy does not understand it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Perhaps it was in connection with the other gentleman.


William Richard Motherwell: Mr. Wilson. He accompanied Mr. Ruddick.

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Richard Burpee Hanson: What was the nature of the trouble that he got into over there?


William Richard Motherwell: I have not heard of any trouble that he got into. He may have been seasick on the way over, for anything I know.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Perhaps the minister will hear of it later.


William Richard Motherwell: Possibly my hon.
friend can enlighten me.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What was the nature of the trouble into which Mr. Wilson got in Saskatchewan that caused him to make that foreign trip?


William Richard Motherwell: My hon. friend is on the wrong scent altogether. Mr. Wilson went into the dairy business under the auspices of the Dominion government over twenty years ago. He went to Saskatchewan in 1905 and he got along well as dairy commissioner for twelve years. He was in the Department of Agriculture there, and he was recognized as the first authority, in both theoretical and practical dairying. I presume my hon. friend has been following the evidence which has been appearing in the Regina papers. As a lawyer, he should be sufficiently open-minded to appreciate the fact that many of the statements there were not fair in the absence of Mr. Wilson or anybody to represent him. As regards many of the statements that were made, he made a strong defence that has not yet been made public.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What was the charge laid against him?


William Richard Motherwell: No charges were
laid against him except the charge of not being able to get along with his staff. That is the only charge I have heard.


Arthur Meighen: Was he not charged with alleging that he was a cousin of the hon. gentleman himself?


William Richard Motherwell: That is a new one on me. I never heard that before. There are many things my right hon. friend does not know yet. I remember the other night he did not know there was an embargo on American cattle. To-night he has charged that Mr. Wilson is a cousin of mine. If you go back to Adam, I have no doubt he is.


Arthur Meighen: The minister is the first one I ever knew to claim that he was not. He may be the last. I have some difficulty in keeping up with the sinuosities of the Minister of Agriculture. I do not think anybody knows what is happening while he is there. Did the
minister, for instance, as regards the cattle embargo, make any announcement to the public that it was on?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: How did he make it?


William Richard Motherwell: Through the press in the usual way.


Arthur Meighen: In what press?


William Richard Motherwell: All the press, Associated Press.


Arthur Meighen: I did not see it, but I saw some telegrams from the minister disputing the relationship of Mr. Wilson. He seems to have forgotten that.


William Richard Motherwell: It was not with Wilson at all. I think the leader of the opposition will have to try again and give me something harder.


Mr. ROSS (Simcoe):: I do not doubt the right hon. gentleman did not see the article in the press, but I happened to see it and I think many of us saw it. The article was in the press.


William Richard Motherwell: Yes. If you ask half of the pages here, they will tell you about it.


Arthur Edward Ross: In Ontario, the dairy industry, particularly the manufacture of butter and cheese, is an important factor in farming operations. According to the reports, we have a number of inspectors. I think we have eight dairy inspectors, twelve inspectors of cargoes, seven or eight produce graders. We have reports. This is a little report that does not appeal to me very favourably. It is issued in the Canadian Grocer, and commenting on Canadian butter, it states:
In the Old Country it is selling from ten to thirty shillings per hundred less than butter from some of the other producing countries.
Then it goes on to say:
This is due to its not being uniform in quality or to the poor keeping character of a great deal of it.
I was just wondering what the duties are, and how they are performed, of our inspectors, those that are inspecting the cargoes going, those that are inspecting the butter manufactured in the different provinces, and our graders, how they work, where they work, whether they inspect cream as it comes in, whether they inspect the factory itself as to sanitary conditions, cleanliness and such things; whether they inspect the finished product in the factory before it goes out- these are matters on which I would like to have a little light.
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William Richard Motherwell: The supervision of the manufacture of butter and cheese, broadly speaking, devolves upon the provinces. It is true that we do certain educational work in the way of drawing attention to the advisability of the grading of cream and milk, but we have nothing to do with the supervision of creameries or cheese factories. Our duties bear upon the grading of the article after it is manufactured and the marketing of it, and that is usually done at the warehouses. We did exercise some control under the Agricultural Instruction Act, the grants being made under the condition that a portion of them should be expended in the inspection and grading of cream and milk at factories. Since then we have exercised no control; we have acted only in a consultative capacity or in an educational way. In a word, the grading is federal and the manufacturing provincial.


Mr. LUCAS:: As the quality of butter exported reflects on the Dominion as a whole, does the minister not think it would be a good idea if the Dominion would call a conference of the provinces for the purpose of bringing about a uniform system of grading throughout the whole Dominion?


William Richard Motherwell: We have had one or two conferences of that nature, but it is not an easy matter to get some provinces to accept a grading system at all. The three prairie provinces accepted a grading system years ago, Alberta in particular, with the result that the butter made in the prairie provinces has the highest position in the British market of any butter that goes from Canada, excelling even the product of the famous Eastern Townships. It is not because they are better dairymen, but they have adopted the right principle of grading and of paying for milk and cream on a basis of quality, and it is only by paying on a basis of quality under a system of grading that you can possibly get quality in the output of butter. In the older provinces they sell nearly all their make at home, consequently they do not have to go on a foreign market and compete with the world. Their make of butter is suitable to the people in Ontario and Quebec, particularly the salting of it, and as I say. although a small quantity is exported the bulk of it is used in the home market. On the other hand, in the West we had to compete in an outside market and gratify the tastes of those who bought our butter on that market, with the result that our make rapidly assumed the quality demanded. The amount of butter exported from the East is so small that there is not the urge for a system of grading that 
there has been in the West. At the last conference we had, both Quebec and Ontario- they have already started it in the Maritime provinces-indicated their intention of embarking upon a provincial policy of the grading of cream and butter. Primarily, therefore, the quality of these goods is dependent on the provincial activities, supplemented by such educational services as we can render.


Arthur Edward Ross: Are we to admit that the report I have just read regarding butter over there is true?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes.


Arthur Edward Ross: Has the minister any comment to make on that or any suggestions as to how we can overcome it We cannot afford to lose that market for our butter.


William Richard Motherwell: I am sorry to have to admit it is true, but it is only by knowing the truth that we can remedy the difficulty, and that is what we are endeavouring to do. I believe we will have to introduce gradually a system of dual factories that will make butter in the winter and cheese in the summer and have a sufficient volume of business to take care of the cream and the milk in proper, up to date fashion by pasteurization. During the last two or three years an act was passed in Toronto providing for the consolidation of any cheese factories that wanted to get together in this way, and I recall that the Hon. Manning Doherty, who was responsible for the act. imitated almost exactly the system that is in effect in Saskatchewan, although he provided for the advance of a larger amount of capital to the consolidated creamery. I think that one or two of these institutions are being organized, although I do not know of any that have actually been organized as yet. Only by doing that can we hope to compete with Australia.


Arthur Edward Ross: Is it compulsory that our export butter be graded and stamped as to grade before it is exported?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes.


Arthur Edward Ross: By federal regulation?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: WThat was Mr. Wilson doing when the minister secured his appointment to this travelling task of making markets for our butter?


William Richard Motherwell: I thought I had
covered that fairly well in answer to the hon. member for York-Sunibury (Mr. HansonK

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We are constantly having reports as to his activities.


Arthur Meighen: The minister finds fault with me for not reading the papers, but he does not listen to me when I ask a question. I asked what he was doing when the minister appointed him.


William Richard Motherwell: My hon. friend
knows that I have not the very best of hearing. I have one ear that is no good.


Arthur Meighen: I am sorry; I did not
know that.


William Richard Motherwell: But I often hear
more of what the right hon. gentleman says than is good for me or good for anyone else. At the same time, I do not hear everything he says. What was he doing before he went overseas? He went over to Australia with Mr. Ruddick to find out what he had to compete against when he went to the Old Country. Then before that he was general superintendent and manager of the Co-operative Creameries in Regina.


Arthur Meighen: I will try again; this is
the third time now; and I will speak loudly enough this time.


William Richard Motherwell: Thank you.


Arthur Meighen: The minister evidently
has never heard me aright, otherwise he would not have the erroneous opinions he has now.


William Richard Motherwell: Oh, I heard all
about the embargo proposition.


Arthur Meighen: We will put an embargo on the minister's humbug and try to get down to facts. What was Wilson doing when the minister secured his appointment to this new task in the employ of the Dominion government?


William Richard Motherwell: He had just got
back from New Zealand when the position was established. My hon. friend knows the rigmarole that you have to go through to get an appointment made. First, you have to establish the position, then you have to go to the Civil Service Commission to classify it, then you have to get it confirmed by the cabinet, then after a while you advertise it. I do not know what he was doing during the four or five weeks that it took to make the necessary arrangements. I do not know what he was doing then; I presume he was waiting to see what the result would be. He was on his way back from New Zealand, and arrived in time to apply for the position, and I may say that he got the appointment in competition with seventy-five others.


Arthur Meighen: The minister's influence was important then, but I think after his whole record is known to the commission, they will not pay so much attention to his recommendations again. I did not ask what he was doing while the minister was getting the office created. I asked what he was doing before. So that the minister cannot possibly misunderstand me, I will put it this way: Was he not manager of what was known as the Cooperative Creameries in Saskatchewan? .


William Richard Motherwell: My hon. friend's hearing must be worse than mine, for I have said that two or three times already. I said that he went to New Zealand before he got this appointment, and that previous to that he was manager or superintendent of the Saskatchewan Co-operative Creameries.


Arthur Meighen: What kind of success did he make of that?


William Richard Motherwell: As long as I was there he made a good success of it; I do not know about afterwards. There has been an investigation recently in the Saskatchewan legislature, through the Agricultural committee, in Mr. Wilson's absence and without anyone there to represent him, and it was claimed there that he did not make a good success of it. I cannot speak as to that. I know he defended himself by sending a letter to the Agricultural committee, but for reasons I do not know the letter was not made public.


Arthur Meighen: Was the company in a successful position when he left it? It was a public company.


William Richard Motherwell: No, I do not think it was, according to my information, but there is nothing in the report of the Agricultural committee to indicate that he was in any way responsible for that. I do not know whether my right hon. friend saw the report of that committee. There was evidence given by a number of witnesses throwing some blame on Mr. Wilson for a lack of business management. I have not the report of the committee here, but at the rate we are passing these items I think I shall be able to have it for the next sitting. I can say that in the report of that committee sitting in Regina there is absolutely no reference to any dereliction of duty on the part of Mr. Wilson, and that report is all I have to go by.


Arthur Meighen: He was manager when the thing was wrecked. Was the wreck caused by the absence from the province of the minister or the presence there of Mr. Wilson?
1C50
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William Richard Motherwell: AH I can go by
is the report of the Agricultural committee. The committee took the ground that the Saskatchewan Co-operative Creameries, like a great many other institutions, was found unprepared for the tremendous deflation that took place in 1920 after the war. They had a certain amount of butter on hand that went down seriously in value, and on which they sustained a considerable loss. They had a number of co-operative cold storage plants that were running full blast during the war, and the first of whic-h got the subsidy that was given by the government of that day; that was given to only one cold storage plant, the one at Saskatoon. However, they went on building because of the tremendous demand for cold storage space, and then when the war was over the demand suddenly ceased, and these institutions ceased to be profitable. It was only one of the hundreds of thousands of institutions and firms that were caught in exactly a similar position. I have that report here now. It is headed "Committee of legislature makes report." It is too long to read, but if my hon. friend would like to see the report of this committee-


Arthur Meighen: They would all be
Liberals.


William Richard Motherwell: Oh no. There are one or two Tories out there yet.


Arthur Meighen: I only hope that he
makes some better success of what he is at than of what he undertook in the past, for he could not possibly make a worse success. If there are any more wrecks the minister may get them positions in his department.


William Richard Motherwell: I cannot be responsible for what happened after I left. I accept the report of this committee, on which were Conservatives, Progressives and Liberals.


John Millar: I would like to say a word on this. I do not mind the scrap which is taking place between the leader of the opposition and the Minister of Agriculture; they can fight that out, but knowing Mr. Wilson I feel it my duty to make some remarks in view of the reflections that have been cast upon him to-night. I know something of his work during the last ten or fifteen years in connection with the Saskatchewan government, and I think it is the general opinion in Saskatchewan that he is a very capable official. I might point out
'Mr. Meighen.]
that even though the Co-operative Creameries is in financial difficulties at the present time, and if Mr. Wilson was formerly manager of that company, there are many other business concerns in financial difficulties at the present time, and this is no indication that they were not properly managed. When a capable official, than whom I think the minister could not get a better, is in the employ of this government and doing excellent service, which I believe he is, I cannot sit here and hear reflections cast upon him without raising my voice in protest.


Arthur Meighen: I am not at all surprised, if he is a political friend of the minister's that he would be of the member for Qu'Appelle too.


William Richard Motherwell: Here is the report
of the Agricultural committee, and probably this will be better evidence that my hon. friend's yarn about my being Mr. Wilson's cousin.	.


Arthur Meighen: I would rather have the evidence than the report.


William Richard Motherwell: Evidence that was
given in the absence of the man charged and when he had no counsel there representing him! Surely my hon. friend as a lawyer has a better sporting instinct than that.


Arthur Meighen: They gave a verdict in
his absence.


Milton Neil Campbell: It seems to me that this butter question is well worthy of a little more consideration. Somebody has said that this is very important to the farmers of Ontario, but it is equally important to the farmers of the prairie provinces. We are almost as much interested in butter in Saskatchewan as we are in wheat. In 1921 we produced about
7,000,000 pounds of creamery butter in Saskatchewan, and last year nearly 11,000,000 pounds. The output is increasing by leaps and bounds, and what is bothering us to-day is, where is the future market coming from? While the average wholesale price of creamery butter in 1920 was 56 cents, last year it averaged only 34 cents. The extra production and the contraction of our market is being reflected in the price, and it seems to me there is something we can do here. I think the minister could explore this question a little further. I am not quite sure that I know how it should be gone about, but I believe there should be some very rigid export grading system. If the producers in Ontario and Quebec object to the cream grading system that we have in Saskatchewan and Manitoba, the diffi-

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culty might be overcome by imposing rigid export regulations. I am not sure exactly what we have in Canada to-day, but evidently our regulations are not as rigid as those of Australia and New Zealand. I have an article here which was written by Cora Hind, who was sent to England to study the butter situation in 1922, and in part this is what she said about the butter market:
These Liverpool merchants had nothing very cheerful to say about Canadian butter. They paid too high last year and also state they had great difficulty in disposing of the butter. The texture was good, the packing excellent, but it was reported to have a " back flavour " which was unsatisfactory and made it very difficult to move. Wall and Company had handled some thousands of boxes and their butter expert told me they had lost heavily; he stated that Canada should endeavour, as closely as possible, to approximate the flavour of New Zealand butter, and this advice was also endorsed by Mr. Perry.
I have also a clipping from the marKec report of James Gillanders, of London, which says :
There have been one or two lots of Canadian butter arrived on the market recently, and the quality generally has proved very satisfactory. The system of grading has no doubt a lot to do with this, and although the prejudice on Canadian butter owing to trouble in previous years prevents buyers speculating on this class of butter, yet on inspection they are willing to pay comparatively good values.
The clipping gives some prices for Canadian, which are considerably below the New Zealand figures. I have another quotation from the Grocer, of London which says:
The present season has witnessed an unusually heavy import of Canadian butter. In a general way the butter from the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta proved superior to the article produced in the eastern provinces, and commanded a higher price. This goes to show the value of united effort as exemplified by co-operation between the creameries and the provincial governments of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, and these provinces have very efficient systems of government grading. Canadian cheese maintains its high position on this market, and it appears to be the aim and object of the Canadians to place their bacon and butter on the same plane.
Now, Sir, this extract from the London paper is perhaps well worthy of consideration. At the present time we are told that our customers overseas are not able to buy our products. I find on reference to the trade and navigation returns of the United Kingdom for the year ending 1923 that the imports of Canadian butter-shown in hundredweights of 112 pounds-for that year amounted to 39,834, whereas for the previous year the figures were 154,532, a very serious drop. In the face of this Denmark shows a pretty heavy increase. There is also a considerable increase from the Netherlands, from the Argentine and a very heavy increase from New Zealand. It seems to me, therefore, that
something should be done to cope with this situation. I notice that New Zealand recently passed regulations under which no butter can be exported without a license. That is the exporter must have a license, and in order to secure that license and to retain it after it has been secured there are regulations with which the butter man must comply. I think we shall have to establish something along that line if we are to maintain the standard of our butter on the British market. The total imports of butter into the United Kingdom for the last three years show a steady increase. In spite of that we are losing this market for our butter year by year, our export in pounds for 1922 amounting to about
17,000,000 whereas last year it only amounted to 4,000,000. Perhaps the minister could tell us something about the regulations that are in force at the present time, and if it would not be possible to establish some export regulations that would not interfere with the butter sold locally in the provinces of Ontario and Quebec.


William Richard Motherwell: My hon. friend has touched upon a point of considerable interest. That is the ready disposition of New Zealanders and Australians to not only impose severe regulations but to comply with them in order to put New Zealand and Australia on the map in the matter of butter and dairy products generally. The reports of both Mr. Wilson and Mr. Ruddick indicate that Australian and New Zealand dairymen are ready to submit to anything in reason that the government imposes upon them if it is going to help them to make a better product. My hon. friend is quite right. The butter men of those countries have to have licensed stamped grades and to comply with the strictest regulations. They do so because they know it helps them to put their butter on the market in better shape. In Australia they have the handicap that we have except in this respect, that they have a number of state governments but they have not a federal government overseeing them. In some respects it is an advantage because there is no overlapping, there is a continuous regulation by the respective governments. New Zealand, not having the federal system and having only one government can control the situation and enforce the regulations better than can be done in both Australia and Canada. Now, in this country-we have noticed it only this afternoon during the discussion-people feel as irksome the restrictions that are imposed upon them in connection with the different activities we are discussing. If we imposed upon Canadians the kind of restrictions they
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have in Australia and New Zealand the people here simply would not stand for it, and particularly from the federal government that has no jurisdiction in the matter. Without eulogizing the western provinces too much, let me point out that it was because those provinces took up grading, just as my hon. friend suggests

in conjunction with the federal grades and in co-operation with them- took it up so well that they are able to hold their own and to beat all Canada in the British market. If all the export butter of Canada were as good as the western butter we would not have to make the humiliating confession referred to in the publication which has been quoted from. There are no two men that have done more to bring about that happy situation as far as the West is concerned than the dairy commissioners of Alberta and Saskatchewan. In the older provinces everybody knows how hard it is to introduce any-t.hing new. Out in the West we were using grading in connection with everything which was grown in the earlier years. Everything was sold on grade practically. Therefore we took naturally to grading dairy products but down here it comes very hard, and the people yield to it very slowly. It means that they have to unlearn the past and that is a harder thing to do than starting anew. Notwithstanding that, in Ontario and Quebec they have already started grading. In Nova Scotia they have a home market in the Maritime provinces for every pound of butter they produce; they are not so much concerned about grading because the market is right there, they do not have to export to other countries and compete with other producers there. In Ontario and Quebec they have an average but not sufficient to stimulate them into realizing that they are getting behind. Yet at the last conference which was held in this city, only three months ago both the representatives of these provinces gave assurances that they were prepared now to start out on a grading system in the case of both cream and milk. I should like my hon. friend from Mackenzie (Mr. Campbell) to tell me how we can go at this matter and with better results. I am a stranger down here to most of the workers in the dairy industry and for a western man to be too chesty is something I suppose they would not submit to very kndly. But I will say this, and the eastern dairymen admit it, that the western make of butter surpasses that of the east and brings from five to six shillings a hundredweight more on the market. Mr. Stonehouse, who is president of the National Dairy Council, admits that they know that down here. Now that is not because the western dairymen are

better dairymen but simply because they have done what my hon. friend from Mackenzie and other hon. gentlemen have been advocating. They did it many years ago. They adopted the grading system. They bought their raw material on the basis of equality and sold their product on the same basis and until they do the same down here they will not get the same results. As long as prices are pooled and the sour cream brings as much as the sweet you are not going to get very much of an improvement. If my hon. friend has any suggestions to make I shall be very glad to give them my best consideration, because there is a tremendous problem right there.


Milton Neil Campbell: I quite agree with the minister that a problem exists but it is not an insurmountable one. I think there should be no division of authority between the provinces and the Dominion government in regard to exports. If I understand it, the Dominion government can control the matter of export. I will say nothing about the sale of butter within the province. Surely the Dominion government is able to pass export regulations that will force the butter for export up to a certain standard that will be at least equal to that of New Zealand. As a Canadian I am not ready to admit that the New Zealanders can do anything we cannot do. I know it is usually said New Zealand has a perpetual summer. Their cattle graze in the open all year, and they have a great many advantages we have not.


William Richard Motherwell: Does the hon.
member suggest we should refuse the export of butter unless it is of a certain grade?


Milton Neil Campbell: That is my suggestion. That is the system in vogue in New Zealand to-day, and I see no reason why it cannot be put into effect here, because it is very important. It means almost the salvation of the prairie provinces at the present time. Every hon. member who is familiar with the West knows very well that for the last two or three years the farmers of the prairies have been producing wheat at a loss. The only thing that has kept the farmers going, particularly in the northern part of the prairie provinces, is the dairying, and if we are going to lose the little market that we have, I see nothing but ruin facing us. The market is there. We have a market in the old country, and it is only a matter of developing it; but we must keep up to the standard in order to get that market. Of course there are other factors entering into it. There is the matter of freight rates and

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transportation, but that is a different question, and we can discuss it at another time. I believe that at the present time some regulations could be put into effect that would standardize our butter up to the same grade at which the New Zealand butter is standardized at the present time. I quite agree with the minister that people object to these regulations. They. always do. They object to any laws. If you have the Ontario Temperance Act in force a great many people object to it. If we were to repeal that act and establish liquor stores, many people would consider it a hardship on them. Whatever laws may be in effect, some people will always object. When the cream grading regulations went into effect in Saskatchewan, almost every farmer who patronized the creameries made very bitter objections to them and if I had desired to make a little political capital against the Saskatchewan government, I had ample opportunity for so doing.


William Richard Motherwell: You would not do that.


Milton Neil Campbell: But I was firmly behind that policy, and I think any fair-minded public man would be behind it. To-day I am glad to say that the farmers of Saskatchewan have largely got over that, and they are coming to a point where they are appreciating those regulations. But if the government had viewed this thing from an entirely political standpoint at the first, these regulations would never be in effect to-day. I think it is incumbent on the government to take a very firm stand. Never mind the objections. We have to face objections. It means the salvation of the dairy industry and of the country. I am not prepared to see New Zealand take the whole market of the United Kingdom from us without making a fight for it. I think we have just as good farmers, just as shrewd businessmen and as able legislators in this country as they have in New Zealand, and we have in the western provinces, particularly in the northern part of the country, land that is very suitable for mixed farming and for dairying. We have splendid grass, abundance of water also very rich land, and can produce unlimited quantities of dairy produce, if we have the opportunity, but we must have the market. The figures for the last two years are not only dissappoint-ing but very alarming.
of Canada were prepared to submit to a great many more regulations than were now in force they could never hope to compete with New Zealand. We discussed the question of forbidding the export of anything lower than No. 1. That would be more arbitrary than any regulations that have been passed in this House during the last two years. Let us see how that would work out. There is a market in Great Britain for any kind of edible butter, and quite frequently No. 2 comes within a shaving of No. 1 because of the peculiar position of the market. Then take it the other way. Suppose my hon. friend-as I have no doubt is the case-is growing grain; he knows that we grow various grades of grain. Suppose the laws of Canada prohibited us from exporting to the United Kingdom, or to any other market, any grain lower than No. 3, and that all the commercial grades, Nos. 4, 5, and 6, were banned from export. There is frequently a bigger demand for these grades than for the Others, not in the British market, but in the European markets, because the discoloration due to frost or other causes is not so objectionable in those markets. But apart from that, consider the effect it would have upon such a regulation. The very fact that there is a market for any kind of edible wheat is evidence that the government should not prohibit its export. Some people say that as soon as we create for our butter a reputation in British and European markets such as we have for our wheat, we can afford to ship our third and fourth grade butter just as we ship our lower grades of wheat. There is therefore a big principle involved in the question as to whether we should prohibit the exportation of No. 2 butter. I think I see myself coming down to this House with a proposition of that kind! Yet I must confess to my hon. friend that I have thought seriously about it. But, the public being so fed up with restrictions,
I am not just prepared yet to enunciate such a proposition. I have to thank my hon. friend, because I know now I have one supporter for that proposition; but I really do not think the public are ready for it. I think the people would rebel. They will have to be seized more than ever of the fact that they must have marketable quality, or else they are off the British market with their -fourth or fifth grade, as far as the butter is concerned.


William Richard Motherwell: I want to con- Mr. CAMPBELL:	Possibly I was wrong
gratulate my hon. friend for his criticism. I jn saying that we should prohibit the export, do not know whether he read Mr. Ruddick's but we might make stringent regulations for report after his trip or not. That gentleman tVie different grades, and compel the exporter emphatically stated that until the dairymen by law to live up to these grades. Possibly 68

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we could even prevent the use of the word "Canada" on the lower grades of butter. Surely something could be done along that line.


William Richard Motherwell: My hon. friend is
on the right track but you cannot compel a man to live up to a grade. All you can do is to grade the butter.


Milton Neil Campbell: You could refuse to
give an export license.


William Richard Motherwell: You could refuse
to grade anything below No. 1.


Milton Neil Campbell: Is that not possible?


William Richard Motherwell: It is possible.


Milton Neil Campbell: Or you could refuse to permit the use of the word "Canada". Let us have a high standard, and let it be understood that wherever the name "Canada" is used the article is of a high grade. It seems to me that we could build up a trade by doing something in that line.


Daniel Webster Warner: I have hesitated to speak at this time, as I felt that this was not the item under which to discuss marketing but now that the discussion has drifted into that channel I would like to say a few words. I feel that the hon. member for Mackenzie (Mr. Campbell) has struck a chord that we should consider. We do know that Canadian butter is not taking the place it should in the Old Country and we know we are not competing successfully with the grade Canadian with New Zealand but it is not because we cannot do it.


William Richard Motherwell: Hear, hear.


Daniel Webster Warner: We can do it. We have done it in the West. In Alberta we have endeavoured to place on the market in the Old Country an article known as Alberta butter, rather than Canadian butter. I am in accord with the statements of the hon. member for Mackenzie regarding the grading. It is not a fair proposition for the Alberta butter to take the name of Canadian butter.
I do not speak for Saskatchewan and Manitoba. Perhaps they have as good grades there, although I do not know. I do know however that a considerable quantity of Alberta butter has been sold in the Old Country as such and it is considered better than what is known as Canadian butter. I know too that it has competed successfully with New Zealand butter. There are no doubt a number of difficulties in the way but we have overcome many of them. I think it is quite unfair to us that butter made in the older provinces should go over to the Old

Country under the label of Alberta butter. We have tried to establish a grade of butter over No. 1 and we have partly succeeded. I think the Dominion authorities should see to it that no butter goes over to the Old Country that is not properly graded. If the people in England want to buy either No. 1, No. 2 or No. 3 butter we can of course have no objection; but I suggest that we should have a grade as high as the best butter that we make in Canada, which is superior to what is called Canadian butter in the Old Country at the present time. We in Alberta have made a quality of butter superior to "Canadian butter"; and while I do not know all the facts, I can say, speaking generally, that butter made in New Zealand has not found as much favour either in the United States or in Canada as that butter we produce. The New Zealand butter is so slightly salted that it must be used quickly or it becomes rancid. I do not know whether we are going to be able to dispose of our butter profitably in the Old Country by means of Dominion grading, but we are successfully competing on the coast with New Zealand butter. There are only, comparatively speaking a few people who demand the very slightly salted butter, and there is no doubt in my mind that we could develop a very good market for our Alberta butter. I would advise the minister to spend a little money and devote some attention towards establishing and advertising a better grade than the present Canadian butter that is recognized in the Old Country. If the people in a part of the Dominion are making a quality of butter that is better than "Canadian butter," I think their interests should be protected and they should be put in a position to have that quality recognized through the means of a distinctive grading. In my opinion the government should see to it that these people are protected. Perhaps it is not worth while going into detail as to the way in which this butter is made, but there are firms making it out in the West, and the people in the Old Country want that butter and are willing to take it along with the New Zealand butter and to pay as much for it. I am interested in the dairy business and I know that we have been shipping to the Old County a high quality product which we have not experienced any difficulty in disposing of. But the brand known as Canadian butter makes it difficult for us to sell our superior quality, so that we have to hunt up customers for our product. The government, in my opinion, should undoubtedly do something in this matter so that good butter such as we produce shall not, by reason of a mis-

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understanding on the part of consumers abroad, be placed on a level with a lower grade. Rather, I think that the people throughout the country should be induced to make better butter to come up to the standard of the product produced in the West.


Mr. BROWN:: We have been talking a
good deal about the place where they make good butter and I would suggest to the committee again a line of action that would encourage a greater production of this commodity where it is now being made. When we were discussing the experimental farms I referred to the supply of dairy cattle for the province of Manitoba. I have here a letter which I received from a stock raiser in Quebec, and I might briefly refer to the circumstances under which I came to get into communication with this gentleman. A number of farmers in my own district were anxious to get a carload of heifers for certain purposes they had in view and they instructed me to get in contact with the breeders in Quebec to see at what prices they could procure such animals as they wanted, namely, heifers of from one to two years old. The letter I have here throws a little light on the statement that has been made, that there is an abundant supply of dairy cattle in eastern Canada. This letter, two or three points in which are very significant, is as follows:
Canadian Ayrshire Breeders' Association,
Ayers Cliff, Quebec,
April 2, 1924.
Mr. J. L. Brown, M.P.,
Ottawa.
Dear Sir,
Beg to acknowledge receipt of your favour of the 31st ult. in reference to securing a carload of Ayrshire heifers for shipment to Manitoba.
In reply beg to state that any surplus supply of Ayrshire females is very limited not only in this district but all over this province. American buyers have been coming in here frequently during the past year and buying at prices that prove tempting to our breeders. This applies more to mature stock. As to " in calf " two-year old heifers, the supply will not meet the demand from the government for these heifers to form the heifer clubs being formed throughout this province and the Maritime provinces. We recently had a buyer from Truro, N.S., offering from $150 to even $200 for good two-year old heifers well along in calf for these heifer clubs, but he was unable to secure a carload either in this district or eastern Ontario, so did not buy.
It is our intention, just as soon as roads are suitable to travel, to endeavour to purchase for ourselves about 25 or 30 head of Ayrshire heifers of good dairy type between the ages of one and two years, breed them at about the age of 2 years and be prepared to meet this demand for " in calf " heifers a year from now. We anticipate having to pay fairly good prices for suitable stock but we feel assured that we can sell them at a fair profit over and above their keep next year.
With this in view, we believe that we could supply you a carload of select heifers between the ages of one year and two years of age, of good dairy type,
68i
well developed and suitable for the purpose you mention for an average of about $100 each loaded on car, all of course to be tested for T.B. by a federal veterinary. It is possible that the average price might be slightly less, but we doubt if very much less owing to the excessive demand at the present time for good breeding stock.
If you desire we can inform you a little more definitely as to this about the latter part of this month.
Respectfully yours,
The foregoing letter clearly disposes of the contention, that there is a supply in the East of the kind of cattle which the people in the West require, and it is an additional argument why we should have access to that source of supply which I brought to the attention of the committee a few nights ago, the state of Wisconsin. If I were making a speech on the desirability of closer trade relations with the United States I might very properly point out that it would be to the advantage of every one if the Americans in the New England states were permitted to do freely what this writer says that they are actually doing now, namely, coming in and buying stock, and if we on the other hand had access to the source of supply that is nearest to us. I would impress this matter upon the minister and the government as well as upon the gentlemen who compose the official opposition,


William Richard Motherwell: No hope.


John Livingstone Brown: I will not say it is hopeless; perhaps the minister is more pessimistic than I am. I should like to impress upon the official opposition that this is a demand from the West. The dairy industry is of importance and increasing importance, and the people there are very anxious to get, not a few years after this, but immediately, a big supply of dairy cows. I have testimony here that these are not to be secured in eastern Canada at prices that will enable us to purchase them, and other evidence can be furnished. I know it is true that a government official was sent into the state of Wisconsin to make inquiries regarding dairy cattle. It is possible to find the things you want to find if you want to find them, and it is possible not to find them if you go with the intention, in the first place, of keeping your eyes shut. How far that was the case I am not prepared to say, but I call these facts to the attention of the committee. It is a matter of immediate and urgent necessity that the farmers of Manitoba should have a supply of dairy cattle.


David Spence: My hon. friend stated that the Americans were buying cattle in Quebec and taking them to the New England states.


John Livingstone Brown: That is the statement in this letter.
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David Spence: Are they taking them into the United States free of duty, as you want to bring them in free of duty?


John Livingstone Brown: I am not concerned about that point.


David Spence: We are.


John Livingstone Brown: If I want to buy good stock, I want to buy it. I do not propose to act, according to common parlance, to cut off my nose to spite my face. If the Americans see fit to put up a Fordney tariff against their own people, against purchasing these cattle in Quebec, that is their business. We want to buy these cattle, and there is no reason why we should act in the spirit that I have mentioned by refusing to avail ourselves of a source of supply.


Daniel Webster Warner: When I was speaking before, I omitted saying something that I feel I would like to say. In regard to the New Zealand government being able to control the grade of their butter much more easily, I will admit what the minister has said, that the New Zealand butter is all handled under one government, while ours is made and handled under provincial laws. I pointed out that I thought the Dominion government could help out by requiring a certain grade for export butter. I realize that it is easier for New Zealand than for Canada to get the regular grade, but I think the Dominion government can, and I would like to see them take the position that they would, control the grade of export butter. That is important. That is one way in which we could equal the New Zealand government regulations. If the Dominion government can have control over the butter which is going out, the question of what is used at home will not be quite so serious. I want to point out further that what is needed in the Old Country is not the same quality that is needed in most parts of this country, neither is it the same quality as is needed in the United States. We have to make a butter that meets that market in order to get the market at all. Therefore, it would be well for the government to have regulations that would require a certain butter going to the Old Country and to see that only those grades went there, in order to hold the Canadian butter as high as possible in that market.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I have a request to make
of the minister. My deskmate, "the man from Glengarry" (Mr. Kennedy), I know, wants to make some remarks on this subject. I would ask the minister if he would let this item stand over for further discussion. I do not want to curtail the discussion at the present time, and that is why I did not speak sooner.


William Richard Motherwell: The hon. member
for Glengarry and Stormont wants to discuss this question. He had some conversation regarding some of these points, especially with respect to grading, and I may say that I shall be pleased to accede to the request.


Daniel Webster Warner: Has the minister any idea whether it would be possible to carry out the request as regards the Dominion government having a fixed grade?


William Richard Motherwell: We have a fixed
grade. That is not the trouble. It is the butter that is wrong, not the grade. The butter has to be improved.	The grade, I
think, is all right.
Replying to the hon. member for Lisgar (Mr. Brown) with respect to the Wisconsin cattle, I expressed my personal views regarding the matter, but I pointed out that duties on cattle or anything else had not the habit of falling off between sessions of this parliament, and they do not fall off any too easily when the House is in session. We shall have, however, to leave that matter until a little later on. Further, I did not figure the Ontario or Quebec cattle as an alternative to the Wisconsin cattle when I was speaking about them before. I was speaking about the young stock purchased by western farmers, especially at the large stock markets at Moose Jaw, Calgary, Prince Albert, young dairy-type heifers, to be bred up suitably and along the lines that most authorities consider to be the best way for a poor man to start. My hon. friend shakes his head. I gave my authorities. He may be right for immediate results this summer, but we cannot be living so much in the immediate present and disregarding entirely the future. Manitoba is in the humour of going into dairying, and I should like to be able to let her buy wherever she likes. At the same time, I recognize that there is another side to the question. I do not want to put up the protectionist side, but I am not going to say that there is not something to be said in connection with that side. Some day we shall be negotiating with the United States on the question of reciprocity as regards cattle and other domestic animals. If one of my hon. friends opposite was arguing the matter, they would tell us not to give away our case in advance.


Mr. HOEY:: Why not negotiate now with
respect to cattle?


William Richard Motherwell: I thank my hon.
friend for drawing that to my attention. I

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may say that we did. On the occasion last fall when the matter was up, I took it up with the Acting Minister of Finance (Mr. Robb), not in council but personally, and he immediately communicated with Washington on the question of reciprocal arrangements in connection with this class of cattle, and, I think, of sheep as well. I have not had an opportunity of discussing the matter with him lately, but prior to a few' weeks ago he had not had an acknowledgement of his communication. My hon. friend knows pretty well what shape congress is in at the present time. They are not very free to to do what they like. There is what is called a farm bloc there, and both sides are apparently wanting to please that bloc with the idea of avoiding a third presidential candidate. They do not propose to antagonize them by doing anything in connection with letting dairy cattle enter Canada free. I may say that I do not look for very much in the near future, although the Acting Minister of Finance communicated with them in the hope that possibly there might be some change of heart.


Daniel Webster Warner: I have not quite finished
yet. I should like to point out to the minister that the people who are making the best grade of butter in this country are getting tired of having their butter pulled down to the lower grade, instead o" something being done to make the other fellow come up to the higher grade. That is the condition now, and we would like to see some arrangement made which will pull the other fellow up instead of his pulling us down. We are trying to get away from that by turning out a grade above that of the Canadian butter, but I believe that the Canadian grade should stand for the very highest quality.


William Richard Motherwell: One way of doing that would be to prohibit the export of the low grade butter. In addition to the government grade that is put on at the various centres in Canada, any province is permitted to put on its own private mark, and that applies to almost any product that the farmer exports. My hon. friend has. intimated that the Alberta brand is put on the butter exported from that province in addition to the regular federal brand. There is nothing to prevent that, therefore he is getting the benefit of the reputation that has been built up through that system. As yet the Alberta brand is better known than the federal brand. The provinces have built up a reputation by their own private brands in the past,
and it is only in recent months that there has been a recognition of the value of the federal brand. It will be a year or two before it is fully accepted the same as our wheat grades are, and in the meantime any province may put on its own private brand and get the benefit of the reputation it has built up in the past.


John Frederick Johnston: If that is so; if the provinces can brand their own butter, thus building up a reputation for grade better than that carrying the Canadian brand, why not provide for grades one, two and three and let it sell on its merits?


William Richard Motherwell: We do.


Daniel Webster Warner: I am not quite satisfied yet. I do not like to feel that a province must do something that the Dominion is not doing in order to get a good market for its butter. That is what we are doing; we are forced to take a place over that of the Canadian butter, and I do not believe that is right.
I believe that "Canadian" ought to stand for the very best, if it is possible to get it; if not, then, as the hon. member (Mr. Johnston) suggests, we should provide for grades one, two and three. But let us make the grade high enough to correspond with the best butter made in Canada. Let the other fellow take the smaller-price if he wants to, but let him not come under our wing, sell with us and oblige us to take a lower price in order that he may dispose of his butter in the same market.


Milton Neil Campbell: If I understood the
minister rightly, he is afraid there will be some objections in the eastern provinces to these export regulations. I have gone over the trade figures and I am convinced that practically no butter is exported from Ontario and Quebec. If that is so, even admitting that there would be objections in the eastern provinces-which I am not ready to accept -then very little Ontario or Quebec butter would come under those regulations. I assure the minister that it means almost the existence of the agricultural industry in the prairie provinces to-day, because with the present price of wheat it is almost impossible for the farmers to continue unless there is a market for their butter in the United Kingdom. In spite of the economic conditions there, the figures show that the purchase of butter in that market is expanding year by year, and we are not even holding our own; we have almost entirely lost the market. We shipped a few cases of butter to New York last summer, but that is only a very small amount. It costs from the town of
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Yorkton in the eastern part of Saskatchewan about $1,300 to ship a carload of butter to New York; you can see what it amounts to when you pay the duty as well. So it is much easier to deliver it in England than in New York. I am not entirely satisfied that this situation cannot be coped with in some way.


Mr. MacLEAN (Prince, P.E.I.):: I fully
agree with what the hon. member for Mackenzie (Mr. Campbell) has just said. I know from correspondence with Dr. Ruddick that no man has been working harder on this question of bringing up the grade of Canadian dairy products than he has. The difficulty is that you cannot legislate too far ahead of the ideas or the wishes of the people. However, I see a great deal in the contention of the hon. gentleman from Strathcona (Mr. Warner) who says that- they are able to put on the market a better grade of butter than the Canadian butter in general. There is one fact that I think it would be well to bring out, and that is whether the Alberta butter really is a better article than what is known as the Canadian special. Our factories at present are all, I think, under registration. We have the inspection beginning at the factory; from each factory the registration number goes on the package, whether it is butter or cheese, and that identifies the product of that factory when it arrives in Montreal. What happens after it arrives there or what further grading takes place I am not' in a position to say, but it does seem that if one province is able to put on the market a better article than the Canadian product as a whole, some consideration should be given to that province in order that they may receive the benefit of the better product they are putting up.
I would like to ask the minister if a pasteurizing plant has been established in any of the factories for experimental purposes for this year, and if so where the plant is situated?


Harry Leader: I understood the minister to say that the government had approached the officials at Washington in regard to reciprocity in dairy cattle. If that is the case I would like to point out that while the dairy industry is very important, and the live stock industry m general is very important also, that phase of it which deals with beef cattle should be taken into consideration as well. When the government approach Washington in regard to reciprocity in cattle, let them not forget the beef cattle industry of the West and let them have the duty removed from feed cattle and fat cattle entering the United States. One of the greatest blows the 
western farmer ever received was when the United States government put the high duty on our feed cattle entering that country, and if that barrier could be removed I believe that great prosperity would be brought to the cattle raisers of the West. I would urge upon the minister, therefore, that when the opportunity arises he give due consideration to the beef cattle interests of western Canada.


William Richard Motherwell: With reference to
the question asked by my hon. friend (Mr. MacLean, Prince) with regard to the establishment of an experimental plant for the pasteurization of cream or milk, I may say that one was established in this province by the Hon. Martin Burrell. At the time it was established I do not think they did any pasteurization of raw material, but down at Finch there is a dual factory where both butter and cheese are manufactured, and during the past two or three years we have added to it a pasteurization plant to deal with cream and milk in the manufacture of butter and cheese. I have to give my predecessor every credit for establishing this institution. I think it is exactly what is required, to demonstrate right before our eyes the advantages of an institution of that nature, sufficiently large to warrant getting first-class men and paying good salaries, and large enough also to install pasteurizing machinery.
I think I may be pardoned for following that good example. It is my hope to establish a similar institution in some of the other provinces; I have not decided just where; if the provincial governments will give some monetary assistance to help that out, because the farmers themselves are not in a position to put in the necessary capital and consolidate these factories, I think we shall be making a good start to even up with Australia and New Zealand.
The hon. member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Leader) has made some suggestions that he can elaborate a little on the live stock vote, if he wishes.
With regard to the suggestion of my hon. friend from Victoria and Carleton (Mr. Caldwell) that this item stand so that the hon. member for Glengarry and Stormont may have an opportunity of discussing it, and the suggestion of the Chairman that we let this vote go through, and further in regard to the appointment of Mr. Wilson or a representative in the Old County whose primary duty it will be to look after the dairy industry there, I can assure my hon. friend that the hon. member for Glengarry and Stormont will be given the opportunity for the fullest discussion of any matters he wishes to bring

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up, even to the extent of my eousinship with Mr. Wilson; the discussion can be as wide as possible.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: In the matter of the importation of dairy cattle I would ask the minister if it would not be possible for him to give some clear cut figure, taking Manitoba as a centre, and showing us the cost of cattle in Ontario and Quebec, the cost of freight to Manitoba points, the cost of cattle in Wisconsin, freight and duty to the same points in Manitoba, and also what it would cost the farmers in actual dollars and cents to supply themselves in their own province.


William Richard Motherwell: I shall be pleased to give that information.


Arthur Edward Ross: I do not rise for the purpose of opposing this vote or delaying the discussion, but as I shall be away for a few days and may not be here when this question comes up again, I should like to ask one or two questions of the minister for information. There is a subdivision of the Dairy branch engaged in cow testing, with six dairy promoters. What are their duties? Do they test the milk, and how is this work performed?


William Richard Motherwell: I presume my hon. friend refers to the ordinary cow testing, not what we call the record of performance of pure-bred cattle.


Arthur Edward Ross: (Simcoe): Yes.


William Richard Motherwell: That is being
transferred from this vote to the live stock vote, but I will discuss it now. Some provinces are engaging in this work on the ground that they are nearer the base of operations and can do the work more cheaply than we can. It is only in such provinces as will not take this work up that we have been doing cow testing. It is done through a representative of ours who goes round and organizes a cow testing club, the members of which send in their samples of cream to the respective cheese factories or creameries. For instance, if my two hon. friends sitting in front of me were partrons of a cheese factory or creamery and belonged to one of these little clubs, they would send in their samples three times a month to the operator of the creamery. He would test them for butter fat and send the results back to them. A charge of ten cents per test is paid by the respective patrons to the operator of the creamery. That has been the procedure in those provinces where we are carrying on this work. There are three provinces doing this work themselves. Wherever this work is looked upon as important and we are received favourably, we do the
work. In some provinces the work of cow testing is not done either by the provinces or by us.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Is any testing being done in New Brunswick, and if so, at what points?


William Richard Motherwell: In' a number of
provinces we have a sort of co-operative system, working with the provincial authorities. We do that in Manitoba and New Brunswick. The New Brunswick provincial authorities organize the clubs and we pay the cost of the tests to the creamery men.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: How many clubs are there
in New Brunswick?


William Richard Motherwell: I have not got that here.


Arthur Edward Ross: Is any work of this kind being done by the government in Simcoe county? A number of us there were interested in this cow testing and we had no opportunity of having it done, with the result that a few of us got together, bought our own outfit, and do our own testing of the milk for butter fat. I should like to know if anything is being done along this line in Ontario by either provincial or federal authorities, or have we to do it for ourselves?


Lewis Herbert Martell: Would the minister also give us the figures for Nova Scotia, which is sometimes said to be the province that was passed by, and we always feel that. I would like to know what the arrangement is in Nova Scotia.


William Richard Motherwell: 
Lewis Herbert Martell: May I ask the minister
if he has any bulletin or any statistics in the
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department in regard to these tests, showing where the test took place, who owned the cattle, and so forth, which can be supplied to our farmers in Nova Scotia?


William Richard Motherwell: We have no special bulletin.


Lewis Herbert Martell: But information can be
secured?


William Richard Motherwell: It is outlined in
some of the reports.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Can it not be tabulated for particular counties and supplied in that form?


William Richard Motherwell: I think so.


Arthur Edward Ross: I should like the
minister to give us some information about the pre-cooling plant down at Waterville in Nova Scotia.


Lewis Herbert Martell: That is a very pertinent question.


Arthur Edward Ross: I would like the
minister to give just an outline.


William Richard Motherwell: I will give it in
connection with the next vote for cold storage.


Arthur Edward Ross: It is under the heading of dairying I think. However, I am willing to wait. I wish to ask another question in connection with supplies that were sent down. I see there were 450 bales of shavings bought from Edwards and Company of Ottawa at 20 cents a bale, costing altogether $90, and the freight for shipping it from Ottawa amounted to $201.


William Richard Motherwell: They got a pretty big shaving out of it.


Arthur Edward Ross: I wonder why the
purchase was not made locally thus saving the expense of shipping from Ottawa at a cost of $201?


Henry Lumley Drayton: Yes, and that in a wood country.


William Richard Motherwell: These articles are
bought by tender. Consequently Edwards and Company notwithstanding the freight must have been able to underbid their competitors


Harry Leader: I should like an explanation as to the legal payments made in connection with the dairying industry. There seems to have been no less than thirty-two lawyers who have been paid fees in connection with this industry judging from the Auditor General's report for 1922-23. It is
(Mr. Martell.l
true the fees of these lawyers are very moderate, but it is their very moderation that excites my curiosity. I should like the minister to explain why it was necessary to hire this legal talent?


William Richard Motherwell: There were a good many infractions of the law under the Dairy Industry Act. Since the new law was enacted last year there has been a considerable improvement in that respect but under the old law there were numerous violations. There is the question of the percentage of water for example. One of the arts of dairying is to assume that there must be more than 16 per cent of water. We have got to keep track of that. Then the oleo offenders used to infringe the law a little bit and we had to keep track of them. These lawyers had to be employed. I do not know the amount of charge that is indicated but we have tried to keep it as low as possible. The lawyers in question had to be hired on account of these prosecutions.


Lewis Herbert Martell: May I say to my hon.
friends opposite that if qualified lawyers were employed there would not be half the expense. The trouble is we have too many so-called lawyers who have never been admitted to the bar.


David Spence: What the minister says is
an absolute fact. Notwithstanding what some hon. members to my left contend, it would be an impossibility to have a regulation calling for the export of only one grade of butter to the United Kingdom. Over there they buy butter on one, two and three grades, the same as other products; there is no reason why the British people should not be able to buy in Canada just what they want. May I also say to hon. gentlemen to my left that I am glad they are taking an interest in the development of the dairy industry in the western provinces.
I am especially glad of that because it has been repeatedly stated that there is no prospect for any industry in the West except raising wheat. To-day my hon. friends admit that the dairy industry is well established there and that it is going to pay. Not only that, but western exporters are willing to compete with commodities from countries like Denmark, the Netherlands, and Australasia. I am happy to know that my hon. friends from the West are getting into another branch of industry, besides that of growing wheat, and I hope they will prosper and make a thorough success of it. Dairying is one of the best industries in the country, and I hope it succeeds in the West.

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Milton Neil Campbell: I am not aware that
anyone in this section of the House ever suggested that the exports of butter to the Old Country should be confined to one grade.
I understand the suggestion was that there should be a grading and export system regardless of the number of grades. Neither am I aware that any hon. member in this group ever suggested that we could do nothing else in the western provinces but raise wheat. As a matter of fact, we shall not be able to do anything else unless something is done for the dairy industry. At present there is practically no export market for our dairy products, and yet we have been expanding in this direction by leaps and bounds in the West. It is surely time that remedial measures were adopted.


David Spence: If products of the right
quality are exported to the British market they will realize a good price. Over there they will pay for quality no matter where the product comes from.


Mr. McQUARRIE:: Could the minister inform me what the importations of dairy products from the United States were last year, allocating the amounts to the various provinces?


William Richard Motherwell: I have not got
that information here but the importations did not amount to very much. What my hon. friend desires is the amount of importations of butter from the United States to the nine provinces respectively. The amount is very small, but I have not got the exact figures. We shall be in committee again and I shall get the information for my hon. friend. We have been shipping quite a good deal of butter back there. Last year the amount was very considerable.


William Garland McQuarrie: What amount of
butter was shipped?


William Richard Motherwell: I understand that
12,000,000 pounds-comprising milk, butter and butter fat-were shipped to the United States.


William Garland McQuarrie: From which provinces?


William Richard Motherwell: Chiefly from Ontario and Quebec. Manitoba also shipped a very substantial amount.


William Garland McQuarrie: British Columbia
and the other western provinces, import a good deal of butter from the United States, do they?


William Richard Motherwell: Our information
is that there is very little importation there
However, I will get that data for my hon. friend. British Columbia has been getting her butter in recent years principally from Alberta and some from Saskatchewan. I have no doubt there are times in the winter, say in January and February, when she gets some New Zealand butter, which even finds its way as far east as Montreal. There was not much this year, but some of it went right through to Montreal.


William Garland McQuarrie: Will the minister inform the committee of the amount of exports to the United States from British Columbia?


William Richard Motherwell: No we have not
got that information. We have here the total exports from Canada to all countries of butter fat in its various forms, whether it is butter or cheese or cream or powdered milk, or whatever it is. It is a very elaborate statement of figures and I do not know that the committee would be interested in it at this time of night.


William Garland McQuarrie: It does not matter
what time of night it is; it seems to me we should have more information before the item passes.


William Richard Motherwell: I could give my
hon. friend the total exports. The export of butter fat in the various forms of cream, milk, butter, cheese, powdered, condensed and evaporated milk was 75,674,606 pounds; in round numbers nearly 76,000,000. The amount of cheese would be 116,202,900 pounds. 'The milk and cream are in separate figures. I think to make it intelligible the whole page would be required to be placed before my hon. friend. I might give the total. If there is any particular item he wants I could give it.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I would like to get the
number of pounds of fresh butter exported from Canada last year.


William Richard Motherwell: The figures are
13,173,711 pounds.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: How many pounds went
to France?


William Richard Motherwell: We have not got
that. That is the total export.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I notice that in the states of Washington and Oregon they are building up quite an export trade with China and Japan, and are shipping condensed milk, powdered milk, cheese and butter. Is the
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minister's department making any effort to get a share of this business?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes, I understand
that some of our products are going to Japan. A very considerable number of cattle are being shipped there.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Does the minister know
what the export of butter to Japan was last
year?


William Richard Motherwell: No.


Richard Smeaton White: Can the minister say what
the importation of butter was 'last year?


William Richard Motherwell: It was very, very small. We have not got the record of it. We have no report at all of those shipments. It was largely consumed in the British market. The export of Alberta butter increased last year by nearly 3,000,000 pounds. The proximity of Alberta to British Columbia permits it to compete with New Zealand butter.


Mr. COOTE:: For the information of the
hon. member for Wentworth (Mr. Wilson), could the minister tell us what the production of butter in the prairie provinces was for the last year?


William Richard Motherwell: Of creamery butter, Alberta ' produced 18,000,000 pounds, Saskatchewan 10,000,000 and Manitoba 10,000,000.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Can the minister tell
us the position of the different creameries with regard to aid given to them? Are they all under the same equation as to aid given by the government?


William Richard Motherwell: No. The only
aid ^ given has been to the experimental station at Finch. No assistance was given to the cheese or milk factories. That is a matter of provincial jurisdiction, excepting the experimental station at Finch.	~


Lewis Herbert Martell: What province is that
in?


William Richard Motherwell: Ontario.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Why not give the same aid to experimental stations in other provinces?


William Richard Motherwell: I do not know
what my predecessor had in mind, but I think he wanted the station near Ottawa where he could administer it conveniently and with the least possible expense. I suppose the idea was to try one out first. Then if that was successful and was an indication 
of the type of factory that was considered suitable in other parts of the country, it was thought possible that these people would take their cue from that and establish similar factories wherever it was practicable. But these are hard times for making capital investment, and the result is that people are slow to take advantage of the examples that have been set. We have in mind the establishment of another station. If my hon. friend has any thought that it would be acceptable in Nova Scotia, I am prepared to entertain it.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Perhaps you could make
a success of it in Hants.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Have you the figures for
the importation of butter?


William Richard Motherwell: I have the figures
for the amount of butter brought in from New Zealand and Australia. The quantity from New Zealand was 1,893,312 pounds and from Australia 13,758 pounds. One of the reasons for the difference is that New Zealand gets the benefit of the. British preference, while we have no preferential arrangement with Australia.


Mr. WTHITE:: Are the figures for 1922
available?


William Richard Motherwell: We have them
dating back to 1907. In 1922 the amount was from New Zealand, 2,268,760 pounds and, from Australia, 297,132 pounds. Nearly twice as much was brought in from New Zealand in 1922 as in 1923. We can go back further if my hon. friend desires it.


Mr. DOUCET:: Do we require a certain
grading when we buy foreign butter?


William Richard Motherwell: We do just as other countries do with respect to our butter; we buy butter on the grade of the country from which it comes; and we hope that when they get familiar with our grades they will buy the same way, but as yet they are not sufficiently familiar with it to accept our grade at the face value, as they probably will later on.


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: The minister said there
was a-preferential tariff on New Zealand butter coming in and that accounted for a larger importation from New Zealand than from Australia. Would it not be to the advantage of this country if the preference to New Zealand were wiped out in order to protect our own industry?


William Richard Motherwell: The regular duty
on butter is 4 cents per pound and under the

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preference with New Zealand it is 3 cents. My hon. friend's query raises a budget question which I am sure he does not want to enter into now. Of course if one believes unreservedly in protection to an old industry like dairying one can easily find an argument for raising the duty from 4 cents to 8 cents to correspond with the duty against us going into the United States. The suggestion has its attractions but not to the consumer in Canada.


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: I realize that the question does raise the subject of protection and I do not expect the minister to give a definite opinion this evening. But he might influence his colleagues into making a revision of the tariff when the proper time comes.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Does the hon. gentleman want the fishermen who are not farmers in his county to pay a.;duty on butter?


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: We are not discussing fish now; the subject is butter. It is as important to this industry to have protection as it is to make provision for dead insects as we have been doing all afternoon. In connection with this industry, w.ill the minister tell the committee what his department has been doing in the matter of contagious abortion?


William Richard Motherwell: That comes under the Health of Animals branch. I was reading an interesting bulletin on the subject during the dinner recess, but I do not think we could very well discuss it at the present stage.


Alexandre Joseph Doucet: I thought it could very well be discussed under this head because it has everything to do with the conduct of an important industry in this country.


William Richard Motherwell: The disease is
certainly contagious and it is incomprehensible except to the initiated. However, it comes under another vote.


William Garland McQuarrie: We have been told
to-night that the trouble in connection with the dairy industry is the inadequacy of the market for butter and cheese and other dairy products produced in western Canada. A good deal of Alberta butter and cheese go into British Columbia and I presume that if there were a greater market in that province for these articles the province of Alberta would profit. At present, I understand, a considerable quantity of butter and' cheese, and other dairy products as well, are imported into British Columbia from the United States, and if that importation could be stopped it would give the Alberta and British Columbia people a better market.
The present situation is a most unfair one as the minister must realize. He said that if any one wished to preach the doctrine of protection this was a good argument. Well, obviously there is a good argument in the inequality of tariff as between Canada and the United States on dairy and other products.


William Richard Motherwell: We all recognize
that.


William Garland McQuarrie: It would seem to
me that the proper thing for Canada to do would be to raise its tariff. We could do that even if we were not able to negotiate with the United. States, which does not seem to be possible on the minister's statement. Indeed, it might not perhaps be deemed advisable in some quarters. But if it is not possible to negotiate a reciprocity agreement with the United States surely we can increase our own tariff and so place this country on an equality with the people south of us.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Is my hon. and personal friend in favour of reciprocity with the United States?


William Garland McQuarrie: The matter has been
discussed many times in our province and I take it that the attitude of the people of British Columbia would be of more interest to hon. gentlemen than the personal opinion of any member of this House.


Lewis Herbert Martell: I have every respect
for my hon. friend, though.


William Garland McQuarrie: I am glad to hear
that; the hon. member for Hants is always very kind. I have no objection to giving my own personal opinion on the subject if it will interest the committee. I do not think that there should be any general reciprocity with the United States, but we should have a better tariff arrangement which would place us on an equality with that country, and if that can be arranged by negotiation, well and good. I would favour such an arrangement with regard to certain products such as butter and other dairy products and also eggs. The subject of eggs is a very serious one just now owing to the fact that the market in British Columbia is in very poor condition; in fact it is so bad that a great many of those who have gone into the poultry business are giving it up altogether. If my hon. friend (Mr. Martell) has been keeping in touch with the western newspapers, as I have no doubt he has, see-
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ing that he is interested in the West, he will know as well as I do what disastrous results have attended the present unsatisfactory condition in relation to the tariff on eggs. I am not going to get into a discussion of that subject, because we are talking about the dairy industry. I suggest seriously to the minister, however, that the present position is most unfair. I can tell him, as he no doubt is already aware, that British Columbia is suffering to a considerable degree, as probably Alberta is also, from the present tariff arrangement, and it seems to me that the solution of that particular matter is very easy. We can raise our own tariff so as to shut out American products from our market and thus give our own people a fair chance. I have asked some questions in regard to the importation of dairy products from the United States to British Columbia, and I had a reason for wanting the information. I am not at all satisfied with the attitude which the minister has taken in reference to those questions. He tries to push me to one side and he says: "The hour is late," and because of the lateness of the hour, he does not think he should be asked to answer those questions.


William Richard Motherwell: We will make a
note of them for the next day.


William Garland McQuarrie: We are on this subject now. The minister thinks I am unreasonable.


William Richard Motherwell: No.


William Garland McQuarrie: But a few days ago I tried to discuss another subject, the question of the failure of the government to continue the grant under the Agricultural Instruction Act. The minister said: "No, you are not in the right place; you should get down to the end of the list," and I am afraid even at that he was trying to sidetrack me.


William Richard Motherwell: No, we shall be
prepared to discuss the question fully then.


William Garland McQuarrie: I know the suggestion was made that it would be taken up when we got to "Appropriations not required for 192425." What I am afraid of is that when we get down that far, then we have passed all the items in the agricultural estimates, and the point might very well be taken: "Everything is passed; you are still out of order." That is the reason why I want to get answers to the questions I am asking in theil proper place. I am afraid the minister will tell me later on:	"You are out of order
now, so I cannot give you this information." 
I would insist on this information being given when we are on the proper item. I am not satisfied, and I think that information is absolutely essential.


Mr. BALDWIN:: Does the hon. member
think there is any necessity for an import duty on butter, cheese, milk or cream coming from the United States into Canada?


William Garland McQuarrie: Yes, I think so.


Willis Keith Baldwin: For what reason?


William Garland McQuarrie: The reason, it seems
to me, is fairly obvious. We want to save our farmers from the unfair competition that they are meeting with at the present time.


Willis Keith Baldwin: What quantity of our
products was imported from the United States into Canada during the last ten years?


William Garland McQuarrie: Here is another hon. gentleman who wants this information. He is asking me because he thinks he cannot get any information from the minister.


Willis Keith Baldwin: The answer, I believe,
is that these products are not coming in because in the United States butter is selling at from eight to ten cents a pound higher and cheese from four to six cents a pound higher than in Canada, and enormous quantities of milk and cream are being shipped from Canada to the United States, but to my knowledge none is coming this way.


William Garland McQuarrie: I think we should
have that information, because the hon. gentleman has one opinion and I have another. I happen to know that in British Columbia, big truck loads of dairy produce are coming through the Fraser valley into the Vancouver market every day. I am asking the minister to give the information which the hon. gentleman also wants to have, and I do not see how this committee can intelligently deal with these estimates unless we have reasonable information of that kind. I am not trying to obstruct, or anything of that character. I do not think the minister can complain that I have ever done that in connection with his estimates. That is not my idea, but I would like to get the information and get it now on this particular item. If I cannot get it, I shall have to take up something else.


William Richard Motherwell: I have not got it.


Willis Keith Baldwin: I should like to ask the
minister how much milk, cream, cheese and butter have been imported into Canada from the United States in the past year, or for the past ten years. That must be a local condi-

Supply-Agriculture
tion only where they cannot get these products from the Canadian side.


William Richard Motherwell: I have been discussing this matter with my hon. friend, the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Munro), and he tells me that he has never seen any American butter in his constituency in British Columbia for several years. The quantity is so negligible that it will not amount to enough to affect the market. It cannot be coming into Canada in very large quantities, and we shipped large quantities to the United States last year. There might be a locality in which the movement is in the opposite direction, but the quantity is not large. With regard to the question my hon. friend asked me with regard to duties,
I admitted a little while ago that there were arguments in favour of his contention for putting up the duty; 'but what will the consumer of Canada say about that? I am far more interested just now in getting duties down than in putting them up. Later on we may attend to that, but we cannot look both ways at once.


William Garland McQuarrie: The information
which the minister has received may be reliable as regards the constituency of the hon. member who gave the information, because he may not have seen any of this American butter. Perhaps he has not, where he is residing, in a dairying community in the Chilliwack country. They would not be likely to see it.


Mr. MUNRO:: What particular brand of
dairy produce has the hon. member seen? What is the trade-mark on the American butter coming to the Canadian side?


William Garland McQuarrie: I am asking for information.


Elgin Albert Munro: The hon. member stated
that it was coming in.


William Garland McQuarrie: I said that dairy
products are coming every day in truck loads from the American side into the Vancouver market. I am not saying that they are coming into the Chilliwack country.


Elgin Albert Munro: What names are they
coming in under? Is there no brand, no trade-mark, on them like New Zealand or Saskatchewan or Alberta butter?


William Garland McQuarrie: The only brands I
can give are American dairy and creamery butter. There are various brands, the brands of the people who raise, these products in the state of Washington. The hon. member for Fraser Valley knows as well as I do
that for the farmers and dairymen of the northern part of the state of Washington, the New Westminster and Vancouver markets are their closest and best markets, and they send their produce there instead of sending it to Seattle, for instance, which is much farther removed. The hon. member must know that a serious situation exists at present in regard to, not only dairy products, but eggs, and editorials are being written, not only in Conservative, but in Liberal papers, dealing with the subject and pointing out the unfairness of the present tariff arrangements.


Elgin Albert Munro: Does the hon. member
not know that the price of butter fat on the American side is higher at the present time and has been higher for a long time than it is on our side?


William Garland McQuarrie: The hon. gentleman has asked me a question that I am not prepared to answer, because I have not studied the prices.


Elgin Albert Munro: I know it is right.


William Garland McQuarrie: The statement I have made is that American butter is coming into New Westminster and Vancouver and that other dairy products and products of the farm are being received. Considerable quantities of milk are coming in all the time, particularly in the winter when milk is scarce.


Willis Keith Baldwin: If neither the minister nor my hon. friend can tell how much is imported, does he think that this butter is smuggled into Canada?


William Garland McQuarrie: No, it is brought in right over the road. A paved highway, just like Sparks street, runs from Vancouver to the border and all the way down to the southern boundary of the state of California. This highway passes through the farming districts of the state of Washington, and over it come every day the products of the farm in large truckloads. That is the competition we are up against. I am not in a position to say what the exact volume of that business is, but there must be statistics covering it because everything has to go through the customs. That information must be available and I want to get it.


Mr. McBRIDE:: In connection with the question of stock and butter coming in from the American side, I do not speak here as a lawyer but I speak as ex-president of the executive of the Stockmen's Association of British Columbia. In any meeting I have been in I never heard it brought up once be-
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fore any stockmen's association that we were not prepared to meet any competition the United States stockmen could give. In fact, we can put it over on the Americans every time so far as raising stock is concerned; we can raise better stock and raise it cheaper. Before I left British Columbia to come here, a man came up from the States, bought something over twelve hundred head of cattle, took them to the States and paid the duty on them. Under these conditions I do not see that we should be afraid of them shipping in a little butter.


William Garland McQuarrie: What about eggs?


Thomas George McBride: I am not a hen; I do not know.


William Garland McQuarrie: My hon. friend has
given us some very valuable information, of which his last statement is, I presume, the most valuable. He declines to answer any questions about eggs. I challenge him to deny that there is a strong agitation in British Columbia at the present time with reference to the importation of eggs from the United States, and that editorials have been published in practically all the papers out there regarding that subject. I still maintain what I said previously in regard to the importation of dairy products: it is taking place on quite an extensive scale. If the minister cannot give any information and wants to put the item through to-night, then I would like to deal with some other questions.


William Richard Motherwell: I will bring down the information regarding the importation of dairy products into British Columbia on the vote under which the other matters referred to will be brought up, that with respect to the representative in Great Britain. That will bring all these things up.


William Garland McQuarrie: I would like to get
the imports into British Columbia, and the exports, and the same in regard to the other provinces.


William Richard Motherwell: All right.


Arthur Edward Ross: Is there any cooperation between the departments of dairying in the provinces and the federal government department, and is there any overlapping? For example, is there any cooperation as to the results obtained in the dairying schools, the one at Kingston, for instance and the one in western Ontario? Have they any connection with what the federal people are doing?


William Richard Motherwell: There is substantially no overlapping, because the duties of the respective governments are well defined. I have already explained that the provinces deal more particularly with the matter of manufacturing, the control of the quality of cream, the sanitary conditions of the factories, and so on, while the Dominion deals more particularly with grading and marketing. In addition to that, representatives from the provinces attend our conferences and on those occasions there is an exchange of views.


Arthur Edward Ross: Is there any cooperation between the federal government and the provincial governments in regard to the quality? Is there any co-operation in the matter of these dairy schools, or is it just a matter of straight cleavage between the departments carrying on these different activities?


William Richard Motherwell: There is as much
co-operation as is possible where there are two separate and distinct spheres of activity.


Arthur Edward Ross: That is exactly
what I would like to get at. It looks as if we were wasting a lot of money. We are putting millions out here and millions are being spent in the provinces, the idea being to attain one object, namely, the improvement of the quality of the article we produce. Is there no parallel in these dairying matters?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


Arthur Edward Ross: Is there no information? Is it just a case of what we have heard all the afternoon that there are two separate lines of work?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: If the minister is going
to produce those figures, would he be kind enough to include the shipments of fresh butter to France? In addition to that, what has been the result of the shipments of butter to the Old Country by way of the Pacific coast and the Panama canal?


William Richard Motherwell: I shall be glad to produce that.


William Garland McQuarrie: What has been done,
if anything, to take the place of the assistance which was given to dairying under the Agricultural Instruction Act? I notice that the estimate for dairying this year is the same as last year. So no addition has been made by reason of the fact that assistance under the Agricultural Instruction Act has been stopped.

Supply-Agriculture
I note in a report on the Agricultural Instruction Act for 1921-22, issued by the department, that for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1922, specific reference is made to amounts paid by the Dominion government under the act to assist dairying in some of the provinces. I understood from the minister that it was not so much the grading of butter which was material at present, in order to get us a better market, as the improvement of the quality of the butter, and I presume that the assistance given under the Agricultural Instruction Act was to assist in getting a better quality of butter. I notice that for the year mentioned there is an item for British Columbia, dairying, educational work in cheese and butter, $5,000; Manitoba, dairying, $6,000; New Brunswick, dairying, $4,100; Saskatchewan, dairying, $6,000; Nova Scotia, dairying, $6,000; British Columbia, dairying and cow testing, $9,000; that is all for that one year. I have not ascertained what amount was granted to Ontario, but there no doubt was some assistance given to dairying in that province. The items I have read make a total, I think, of $36,100 which the Dominion contributed that year towards assisting dairying and educating the farmer in dairying, and what I ask the minister is, what has been substituted for that assistance? Or has the Dominion decided to discontinue altogether the assistance which was covered by items such as I have mentioned?


Thomas George McBride: Mr. Chairman, there are
only six Conservatives members in the House. Is that sufficient to carry on business?


William Richard Motherwell: I have the assistance allocated to the respective provinces here, and the figures agree with what my hon. friend has read. I understood him to ask what are we substituting for that. From the estimates that have already been brought down in the western provinces I gather that they are taking up this work. I notice that the Saskatchewan legislature voted something like $54,000 for this work the other day, whereas formerly they got something like $80,000, so I presume they have dropped some of what might be called the secondary activities in which they were being assisted by the Dominion government under the Agricultural Instruction Act, and the ,more important features of the work they are carrying on to the extent of something like $50,000, speaking from memory. I happened to see the estimate in the western press the other day, so it would seem that the tendency of the provinces is to take up this burden and carry on the more important features of the work.


William Garland McQuarrie: Is the minister referring to dairying?


William Richard Motherwell: Not to dairying
alone.


William Garland McQuarrie: I was dealing only
with dairying. I purposely left out the general questions pertaining to the discontinuance of this grant because I expect to take them up later, and I gave only the items under the head of dairying. As I understood it, this was a matter in which the Dominion was assuming exclusive control. Now what is the Dominion doing?
Mr. MOTHERWELL; Of course, we could not withdraw the grant and give it at the same time. If we withdraw it, we withdraw it, and the provinces I think will assume the more important features of the work with respect to dairying and everything else. There was a lot of good work done under that act, and the provinces will find the money, no doubt, to carry on the more important part of the work.


William Garland McQuarrie: That is just guesswork. Has there been any arrangement effected with the provinces in regard to dairying? If there has, I think the committee should know about it.


William Richard Motherwell: No arrangement
since the grants lapsed.


William Garland McQuarrie: So the Dominion
government is not taking precautions to see that this work is carried on.


William Richard Motherwell: How could we?


William Garland McQuarrie: It seems to me that
you are assuming the responsibility in connection with dairying, and you appear to be doing it. You are interested in improving the quality of Canadian butter. Surely the government should be responsible for continuing the assistance which was previously given in this connection. Am I to understand that no arrangement has been made with the provinces at all?


William Richard Motherwell: That is right.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Motherwell the House adjourned at 10.50 p.m.
Supply-Agriculture
[Stage Direction]
Monday, April 7, 1924