1924-07-19

MESSAGE FROM THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SECRETARY


Mr. SPEAKER:: I have the honour to inform the House that I have received the following communication from the Governor General's Secretary:
Ottawa, July 19, 1924.
Sir: I have the honour to inform you that His Excellency the Governor General will proceed to the Senate Chamber on Saturday, July 19, at 3 p.m. for the purpose of proroguing the present session of parliament.
I have the honour to be,
Sir,
Your obedient servant,
A. F. Sladen,
Governor General's Secretary.
The Honourable,
The Speaker of the House of Commons,
Ottawa.



INQUIRY FOR RETURNS

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Right Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN (Leader of the Opposition):: Some three weeks ago I
made reference to certain returns which had been brought down in answer to orders of the House and called attention to the fact that the most important features of them had been omitted. The Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Cardin), whose department was chiefly concerned, promised to have the omissions looked into as they constituted contempt of the House. I have reminded him twice of the matter and of his promise but I have had so far nothing but promises. We are now at the last moment of the session and the missing returns have not been supplied.
I must offer the comment that there is some significance in bringing down returns so obviously defective in particulars that go to the heart of the matters involved, and in declining to make good the defects right up to the end of the session and even in defiance of repeated promises. Some important returns have yet to be brought down, although I may say that of those orders I mentioned the other day some were complied with yesterday, too late however, to be of the slightest value this session.


Hon. A. B. COPP (Secretary of State):: My department has been in close touch with the other departments concerned and I can only say that every effort has been made to bring down all the returns that could possibly be prepared. Some fifteen returns were submitted on the first occasion and about ten or twelve have been brought down since that time.


Arthur Meighen: They were not all those
that I referred to. I mentioned only the returns moved for and not complied with so far as this side of the House is concerned; many of the rest asked for by hon. gentlemen to my left and hon. gentlemen opposite are still to be brought down. Of those returns brought down some were moved for by the other two parties.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I have presented all that have come from my department.


Arthur Meighen: I have no explanation as to why it is we cannot get returns as ordered by the House. We may just as well cease moving and having passed orders of the House if they are only to be flouted after they have been passed.


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: I am sorry that the
Minister of Marine and Fisheries is not in his seat at the moment; I have not the least doubt he would have a satisfactory answer to give my right hon. friend. On his behalf I shall ask to have the information secured and sent to the right hon. gentleman, notwithstanding prorogation, so that he may have the material which he requires.


[Stage Direction]
SUSPENSION OF SITTING

William Lyon Mackenzie King: I know of no other business which should occupy the attention of the House at the present time. I understand that a report will come from the Senate shortly
Pension Act

with reference to some legislation respecting pensions and I think it would be just as well for the House to suspend its sitting for ten or fifteen minutes until that report is received.


Hewitt Bostock: The sitting is suspended for a quarter of an hour.


Mr. GOULD:: If I may be permitted to
ask just a brief question,-will the Prime Minister say what the probable date will be of the next meeting of parliament?


Arthur Meighen: Mr. Speaker


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The sitting is suspended.


Arthur Meighen: That is only a suggestion. With reference to the question I put this morning about 6.30 to the Minister of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment, as to whether the government had not taken a different stand in the House of Commons to what it took in the other House regarding the Pensions bill, I would ask the minister to read as they appear recorded the utterances in the other House by the member of the Senate who represents the government and leads its forces in that chamber. This substantiates to the full what I stated yesterday, and even more. It seems strange that the government should take one stand in this House and a totally different stand in the Senate.


Mr. BELAND:: I will read the debate in the Upper Chamber in due course. I am not particularly concerned about what an individual member of the Senate may say or may do.


Arthur Meighen: I am referring to a
member of the government.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am not particularly interested in what an individual member of the Senate may say; I am concerned with the action taken by the Senate as a body.


Arthur Meighen: What can the hon. member expect if the government leader there virtually requests them to take it?


Henri Sévérin Béland: The government leader
may be powerless in the Senate on any question.


Arthur Meighen: The trouble is he was
all-powerful; he had his way.


Henri Sévérin Béland: As I understand it, the
reasons invoked by the Senate for interfering substantially wfith the bill that was passed by this House is that they were not aware that a special report had been presented to

the House; that a prolonged inquiry had been made by a special committee of this House on the subject. However, we will see what the Senate says in regard to the message we sent to them early this morning, and then we will decide what action we should take.



TRAVELLING EXPENSES OF CABINET MINISTERS

William Lyon Mackenzie King: During the discussion of
the estimates this morning there was an item that referred to the passage of my right hon. friend (Mr. Meighen) from Liverpool to New York, and I intimated that the government had been asked payment of the account, as it related to expenses that had been incurred but had not been paid. That was not through any neglect on the part of my right hon. friend or his secretary, but simply through the circumstances that he had evidently assumed the account had been paid by some one else. However, this bill came to us for payment. I said to my right hon. friend that we had a letter from him admitting the fact. He said he doubted that and asked to be shown the letter.


Arthur Meighen: Will the right hon. gentleman read the letter? I have no objection.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Ottawa, July 6, 1923.
Sir Joseph Pope,
Under-Secretary of State,
Ottawa.
Dear Sir Joseph,-
I have your letter of May 30t,h regarding charges for passage from Liverpool to New York in July, 1918, for myself and private secretary.
I understand that passages were arranged through the Admiralty Board, and it was presumed that charges were being absorbed by them. Mr. Garland, who was my secretary at that time and who had charge of such details, assures me that no payment was made by him at the time, and of course the item was not included in the statement of expenses.
Yours very truly,
Arthur Meighen.
I think that bears out what I said.


Arthur Meighen: I think the letter was
prepared for me by the same secretary, and I signed it. I have not even any recollection of what is in the letter. I have no doubt it is perfectly correct.



RETURNS


Arthur Bliss Copp: With reference to the bringing down of returns and the comments made in that connection, while

Pension Act
I realize that hon. members are entirely within their rights in asking for any returns, I suggest that they give a little consideration to the fact that much of the information they ask for could probably be got from the departments. Voluminous returns sometimes have to be brought down which I feel sure no one would ever have time to read. As an illustration I laid on the table of the House this morning a return comprising over twelve hundred typewritten pages, containing correspondence with regard to Dominion Canners, Limited. It may be that some one wants to read it all-


Arthur Meighen: Who moved for that?


Arthur Bliss Copp: The hon member for Norfolk (Mr. Wallace), I think. And it is only a partial return. Hon. members will see what an amount of work and expense is entailed in preparing the many voluminous reports asked for. As I say, hon. members are within their rights in demanding this information, but I feel sure that much correspondence is included in the information sought that is not of interest and that many details requested might be readily obtained from the departments. I only throw this out as a suggestion that returns could be much more readily brought down if the information asked for was reduced to a minimum.



ASSEMBLING OF PARLIAMENT

Oliver Robert Gould: I desire again to ask whether the government has any information to give the House as to when the next session will be called? I suggest that it should be very early in the year.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: As I intimated when the question was asked yesterday, I am unable to say whether or not between now and the next session of parliament we will have a general election, so that I cannot answer my hon. friend's question. I do not contemplate a general election, but there is always a possibility. The meeting of the House will depend entirely upon the circumstances that arise between now and the end of the year. If nothing exceptional takes place I hope it will be possible to have the House called together in January.
At 1 p.m. the sitting was suspended until 1.15 p.m. this day.
The House resumed at 1.15 p.m.



PENSION ACT AMENDMENT


Hewitt Bostock: I have the honour to inform the House that I have received the following message from the Senate:
Saturday, 19th July, 1924.
A message was received from the Senate acquainting this House that the Senate doth insist on its amendments to the Bill No. 255, an Act to amend the Pension Act, to which the House o-f Commons hath disagreed, for the following reasons:-
That the Royal Commission on Pensions and Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment was appointed in 1922 with a view to the government submitting legislation as an outcome of its report.
That the government did not present the bill to the Senate until it had announced prorogation in the House of Commons.
That upon a perusal of the Commons Hansard it was obvious that little or no discussion or consideration took place upon the bill.
That in the short time allowed, the Senate gave its best consideration to the bill and expressed the anticipation that the government next session would again submit it at an earlier stage for further consideration.
That the amendments having been so framed, no material loss will arise to the beneficiaries between now and the next session of parliament.
I might be allowed perhaps to make a little comment on what appears to be most unusual in this paragraph of the message, reading as follows: "That upon a perusal of the Commons Hansard," and so forth. Whosoever drafted this message aparently lost sight of the well-known custom and practice, which is to be found laid down in rule No. 203 of Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms:
Allusion to debates in the other House are out of order, and there are few orders more important than this for the conduct of debate and for observing courtesy between Houses. See May 289.


Arthur Meighen: I entirely agree with Your Honour's comment, and from a desire to obey a corresponding obligation on the part of this House I refrain from making quotation. But Your Honour might have added that the government leader in the Senate similarly violated the rule by making a direct reference to the debate in this House in his speech before the Senate.


Mr. L. W. HUMPHREY (West Kootenay) :: Mr. Speaker, I feel I cannot let this
opportunity pass without respectfully urging upon the government further action in reference to this communication with a view to a conference between the two Houses. I think the opportunity should be taken to lay the facts of this case before the Senate, and I would respectfully urge that a conference to that end be arranged. I feel the country would not approve of parliament's proroguing until every means had been exhausted to put this legislation into effect.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Mr. Speaker, the
reasons which are adduced by the honourable the Senate for having refused to consider thoroughly Bill No. 255, which was passed by
Pension Act

this House, do not appeal to me. The House of Commons' committee sat for a number of months upon this question. The report of the royal commission, upon which the amendments have been based, has been before parliament for at least two months. Any report which is laid on the Table of the House is available not only to members of this House, but also to members of the Senate, and if this argument which is being put forward were to be entertained, what about the Canteen Funds bill which was thrown out by the Senate after due consideration?


Mr. GRAHAM:: That is what did not take place.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Though I may not be in
order in referring to this particular measure, I cannot for the life of me see any reason for rejecting the Canteen Funds bill. It is not our money; it is the soldiers' money, the distribution of which was recommended by the royal commission, and we passed the legislation unanimously in perfect accord with those recommendations. But that bill was thrown out by the Senate.
Coming to this particular measure amending the Pension Act, one must bear in mind that the act as it is to-day provides that the pension bonus will lapse automatically on the 1st of September next should not a measure extending it be passed at the present session. The bonus which was provided some years ago has been extended from time to time up until the 1st of September, 1924, after which it will not be paid unless new provision. is made. I have endeavoured to secure information regarding the possibility of arriving at an agreement of some kind with the Senate upon some of the amendments at least, and the information I have been able to secure is to the effect that it would be useless. Should not the bill as amended by the Senate pass today, I repeat, very serious consequences will result, serious for the soldiers, inasmuch as all the pensioners, or at least an immense majority of them, will be deprived of the bonus, which I understand we here are unanimously in favour of extending permanently, for a number of years still, at all events. The bill provided for making the bonus permanent, making it a part of the pension itself. However, I wish to use every possible means that can be taken advantage of, and therefore, Mr. Speaker, I beg to move:
Resolved that a message be sent to the Senate respectfully requesting a free conference with their Honours to consider certain amendments made by the Senate to Bill No. 255, an act to amend the Pension Act, to which amendments this House has not agreed,

and upon which the Senate insists, and any amendments which at such conference it may be considered desirable to make to said bill or amendments thereto.
We do not know what the result of the conference may be. I hope we may obtain something, but I say frankly that should the Senate persist again in their attitude the only course left open to us will be to accept the bill as amended in order to save the bonus.


Mr. J. A. CLARK (Burrard):: I have no
abjection whatsoever to offer to a conference between the members of this House and the members of the Senate. I regret, however, that some committee was not appointed earlier. This situation was known last night, and I attempted to draw it to the attention of the government then with a view of arriving at immediate action. I have very grave doubts whether anything can be accomplished now in view of the shortness of the time, and in view particularly of the attitude of the leader of the government in the Senate. At the same time as far as I am personally concerned I welcome the conference idea as a last resource, and am prepared to use my utmost endeavours to secure some of the amendments which are desired to this act. I agree with the minister that we must not do anything to imperil the rights of the pensioners in regard to the bonus. That principle has been agreed to by both this House and the Senate. Therefore, I urge that we do nothing that might imperil that section of the act which even the Senate agrees should pass. So far as the minister's remarks on the Canteen bill are concerned, I really think it is unfortunate that the two bills should be coupled in our remarks. After all, the Pension bill is the essential bill. No one is being hurt because the Canteen bill has not been passed. The money will lie there, and although possible benefits will be postponed for a year I do not think any returned man, or anybody at least, could suffer because that bill was not passed. I think we must concentrate our efforts on the Pension bill-that is the bill. The failure to sanction the amendments to the act is the thing that is doing the harm in the country.


Arthur Meighen: I am not quite clear-


William Lyon Mackenzie King: If my right hon. friend
will pardon me. I would like to say just one word in reply to a point mentioned by my hon. friend (Mr. Clark). He stated that he drew the attention of the government last night to the prospect that a conference could be arranged and, I think, rather left the im-

Pension Act
plication that the government might have proceeded with .this conference a little more quickly.


John Arthur Clark: If I am wrong in that I shall only be too willing to be corrected. But that certainly was my hope, that by bringing the matter to the attention of the government the earliest possible action might be taken.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Well, I think I can show my hon. friend that the government did do all that was possible under the circumstances. The Senate adjourned its sitting until eleven o'clock this morning. We adjourned ours until half past twelve in the hope that we would have a report from the Senate as soon as we reassembled which would enable us to see their position in this matter. My hon. friend has been in the House this morning and he has observed that no report came from the Senate. Even at half past twelve we were without information, in fact we suspended the business of the House to enable us to get this report, and the moment it was received we took action.


John Arthur Clark: Instead of sending the bill back could we not then have appointed a committee to confer with the Senate?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: We could not because we did not know what the action of the Senate would be in the matter. I think this statement fully answers my hon. friend's point.


Mr. T. W. CALDWELL (Victoria and Carleton):: I feel that parliament at the present time is facing a rather serious situation. I do not wish to say anything that will be considered as contrary to the rules of the House in this discussion, and I hardly know how I am going to express my feelings in the matter without doing so.


An hon. MEMBER:: Suspend the rules.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: If you find, Mr. Speaker, that I aim getting beyond the rules I shall be pleased to be called to order. An hon. member has suggested that we should suspend the rules.


Hewitt Bostock: Suspend the sitting.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: With regard to these Pension Act amendments it has been stated that the reason they could not be concurred in by the Upper House was because they had gone through this House with very little discussion. I will admit at once that was a fact. As a member of the committee I did not feel 308
it was necessary to discuss these amendments before the House because the government had appointed a royal commission.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Two years ago.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Yes, two years ago
which has been considering these proposals ever since, which has held a very extended investigation, and has made a very complete report on the conditions as it found them and suggested remedies therefor. That report has been available to the members of this House and, I presume, to members of the other House as well. While the sittings of the Pension committee were going on this session the proceedings were printed from day to day. The evidence in its entirety, and even the discussion by the members of the committee, was printed up till the final sitting of the committee to prepare the report. I repetat, this evidence was availaible for the members of the House and, I presume, for the members of the Upper Chamber as well. Therefore, I think, Mr. Speaker, no member of this House, especially the members of the Pensions committee, felt it necessary to discuss the report of that committee as to these amendments. If legislators in this country have not seen fit to take time to read the report of the Ralston commission and the evidence given before the Pensions committee, I do not know that this House can be held responsible for that. I contend it has been available, and been available for some length of time. I will admit this, however; I think it is inadvisable that legislation should be sent to the Senate at so late a date if there is no means available for them to have information on the matter. However, I feel that the Pensions bill does not come under that head because both the Ralston report and the evidence of the committee have been at the disposal of the members of both Houses. The Pensions bill is not like a measure that is introduced in the dying days of the session and passed even with discussion. In such a case as that there is very limited time for the Upper Chamber to consider what has been said or done here. But I contend that this bill does not come under that category at all.
I should like to support the hon. member for West Kootenay (Mr. Humphrey) in the suggestion that a conference should be held over this matter. I feel that the question is so serious, the matter of the pensions amendment is so important, there is so much involved that we cannot afford to even stand on our dignity in this House in regard to taking every available means to come to some

Pension Act

reasonable understanding. I am sorry the argument has been advanced that there is no hope of coming to any reasonable agreement. It would indicate to me that there was reason to fear we should not come to such an agreement. Personally I think the amendments to the Pension Act are reasonable, I think they are necessary and I do not see any reason why they should not be adopted. I would say however that if no compromise is possible this House cannot do otherwise than accept the amendments of the Senate, because there is a great issue involved. If we do not accept them the bonus lapses, I understand, in September this year.


Henri Sévérin Béland: September 1.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: This will mean that
our pensioners who are getting the full disability pension will only receive $50 instead of $75 a month, or $600 instead of $900 per year. The royal commission considered it was advisable to extend this bonus for five years. The committee of the House recommended that the bonus be made permanent, as part of the pension. I think the thought in the minds of the royal commission was that there was no question about extending the bonus at the present time. That was indicated in their report. I think there was another thought in their minds, which was that possibly living costs might go down in five years. The reason the bonus was instituted-and I was one of the committee which recommended it -was because the cost of living had gone up, and it was not possible for a totally disabled man to live on $600 a year. I think the cost of living has gone down very little, if any, since the bonus was instituted, especially in the case of a man not able to help himself. Therefore, if there is no possibility of a compromise with the Upper House on this bill, I think the House must accept the Senate amendment. I would suggest to the government, however, if no compromise is possible, the government should consider very seriously the holding of an election this summer and asking the people of this country to decide whether there is any use in electing members to parliament to pass or amend laws for the government of the country. To my mind electing representatives has come to be more or less of a farce, due to certain conditions which have arisen in the passing of acts in this country, and I would strongly advise the government to hold an election forthwith, of course giving time enough to get the facts before the country, in order to decide who rules this country, whether it is the elected members of parliament, or whether it is a body of men

who are not responsible to anybody but their God, and possibly not in very close touch with Him.


Hewitt Bostock: The expression the hon.
member has used is a very harsh one, and I would refer the hon. gentleman to rule 19.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I hasten at once to
withdraw the expression. Possibly my emotions ran away with my better judgment. However, I presume there is no rule of the House to prevent a man from entertaining his own thoughts, if he does not express them.
Mr. JOS. T. SHAW (West Calgary): I rise only for the purpose of saying that it is important that action be taken with a view to securing a compromise in this matter. I do not think that any good purpose can be served by approaching the members of the Senate in a belligerent and hostile attitude, with the threat of an election, for the purpose of-I do not know for what purpose, because I cannot see how an election is going to determine anything other than the membership of this House. We have to change the British North America Act first. I think the committee appointed by this House should have in mind that this is not necessarily a time for belligerency. In the first place, I think it will accomplish little; and in the second place, this House does not need to prorogue at three o'clock.


Mr. JAMES ARTHURS (Parry Sound):: I desire to say a word or two in support of the remarks of the hon. member for Calgary. It is most desirable that some compromise should be arrived at. It is true this matter has been before the country, through the Ralston commission and the committee of this House for many months. It has been thoroughly, threshed out. Their recommendations were made to the government and legislation was introduced in this House accordingly. I disagree with the hon. member for Victoria and Carleton (Mr. Caldwell), because he has an apprehension that perhaps the Senate was adverse to the government, but I want to point out that the men who practically killed this bill in the Senate-


Hewitt Bostock: Order.


James Arthurs: The members of the
Upper House-


Mr. LOGAN:: Order.


Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: WTe do not like the truth sometimes.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I will put the hon.
gentleman right. I did not refer to any party

Pension Act
in the Upper House. It does not matter what party did it. It is the result we have to look at.


James Arthurs: I say the gentlemen
who-


Hance James Logan: Order, order.


James Arthurs: What is the point of
order? The gentlemen who are principally opposed to this bill in another place-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order, order.


James Arthurs: -are not opponents of this government, tlhey are strong supporters of this government, and probably had their instructions from the government as to their action-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order, order.'


William Lyon Mackenzie King: With reference to the remarks of the hon. member for West Calgary (Mr. Shaw), parliament need not necessarily prorogue at three o'clock this afternoon. I may say that I agree entirely with the hon. member that every effort should be made to accomplish what can be accomplished by conference with the Senate, and I would like their Honours to feel that when the conference takes place the hour of prorogation should not influence their deliberations in the least. I am prepared to ask His Excellency to permit us to fix a later hour for prorogation, as long as there is the slightest chance of a compromise.


Hewitt Bostock: I would remind hon. members that it might be well to bear in mind that if we are to have a conference now there should be as little delay as possible, because time flies.


Arthur Meighen: I welcome very heartily the suggestion of His Honour the Speaker that we do not waste any time, and also that we should endeavour to present the attitude of the Commons to the members of the other body in the proper light, even though it may necessitate delaying the hour of prorogation.


Mr. GEORGE BLACK (Yukon):: I express my agreement with what has been said as to the lack of necessity of the House proroguing at three o'clock. Apparently there was no necessity for the Senate to have dealt with the matter as it did yesterday in such a precipitous manner.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order, order.


George Black: The Senate might just as well have considered the matter today; if as has been said the bill was dealt with without proper consideration, which I do not think is the fact, because-


Henri Sévérin Béland: It is so stated in the report of the Senate-that they had no time.


George Black: If it is said that the House of Commons dealt with the bill in that manner, it is not correct, because this House appointed a committee of its members which, in the opinion of the House, were best qualified to suggest amendments. On that committee there was a number of men who have served on the same committee for years, they are the men best qualified to prepare recommendations to parliament concerning pensions legislation and I say it is important that parliament should not let the hour of prorogation interfere with the proper consideration of this question. I do say, however, that the committee should have submitted its recommendations as to pension legislation amendments at an earlier date. These recommendations might very well have been presented to the House of Commons some time ago, followed perhaps by suggested amendments to the legislation, dealing with Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment, after which the complaints against the pension board might have been considered. A great deal of time, was consumed in that committee in considering questions which were of comparatively little importance, compared to the importance of amending the pension legislation. As a member of the committee 1 must say that the chairman was warned of the danger of allowing these suggestions to remain unstated until so late in the session. Satisfactory consideration was not given last year by the Upper House to legislation passed by the House of Commons along these lines and by reason of the Senate's action last year we were aware what might happen this year. I want to read to the House a telegram which I have received from the Dominion president of the Amputations Association. I presume that other members have also received it. It is dated Toronto, this day, and reads:
Disabled soldiers expected pensions bonus wouild be made permanent and are bitterly disappointed at action of Senate. All party leaders in Senate assured us of their unqualified support. Will you use every effort to prevent prorogation of House until this vital matter is settled in our favour.
I for my part am prepared to stay here as long as may be necessary to accomplish the desires of the association.
Right, Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN:	It is
only right that I should put in a word. I am not in accord with the Senate's action but at the same time there is some justification for the complaint that the bill was precipitated into the Upper House at such a period of the session as did render adequate or appropriate
Pension Act

consideration impossible. I am in entire accord with the words of the hon. member for Victoria and Carleton (Mr. Caldwell) in this regard. My understanding is that the very late decision on the subject was unnecessary in view of the fact that on more than one occasion the members of the committee who sit behind me urged a more expeditious dealing with the question on the part of this House and of its committee. It must be said in justice to the Senate that there is some ground for the complaint in this respect.


Henri Sévérin Béland: One word in explanation.
Regarding the lateness of the action of the House of Commons, I do not think the remarks of my right hon. friend are justified. The report of the committee had not been before this House more than forty-eight hours before a notice appeared in the Votes and Proceedings under my name with respect to the same amendments which are recommended.


Arthur Meighen: That is not my point,
although I do not think that even forty-eight hours should have elapsed to begin with. The dilatory action on the part of this House was due to the delay in having the report in; members of the committee have said that it was unduly delayed. There were promptings on the part of hon. members behind me to make more expeditious progress in the committee, but that was not done and consequently we are in this position to-day.


Henri Sévérin Béland: All groups in the House
were represented on the committee and I must resent the suggestion that there was anj' delay that could have been avoided. To my own knowledge the members of the committee have been working for the last three months, having had 29 sittings in the course of which they laboured almost day and night. This is a difficult problem and friends of the right hon. gentleman sitting behind and around him who were members of the committee know with what earnestness the committee has been on the job.


James Arthurs: They were pressing for
action.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Does the hon. member
think that the committee could have proceeded any faster than they did?


James Arthurs: Yes, I do.


Henri Sévérin Béland: The hon. gentleman was
a memfoep of the committee. Why did he not assist in expediting matters?


John Arthur Clark: We did our best, absolutely.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Of course you did, I know you did; and the legislation was introduced in this House forty-eight hours after the report had been laid upon the Table and not concurred in. I was ready to proceed the very first day but my hon. friend was one of those whio objected to the report being concurred in. He was one who objected, and I remember saying to him that, if it was the desire, we should lay aside the report and proceed with the legislation.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
At 1.50 p.m. the sitting was suspended until 2.30 p.m. this day.
The House resumed at 2.30 p.m.


Hewitt Bostock: I have the honour to inform the House that I have received the following communication from the Clerk of the Senate:
Satukday July 19, 1924.
Resolved, that a message be sent to the House of Commons respecting their request for a free conference to consider certain amendments made by the Senate to Bill No. 255, an act to amend the Pension Act, informing that House that for the reasons already given the Senate does not see the utility of a conference at this late hour of the session.
A. E. Blount,
Clerk of the Senate.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Mr. Speaker, in expressing my regret that no better solution can be arrived at, and in order to save those clauses of the bill which passed the House and were not interfered with by the Senate, especially the clause which provides for the extension of the payment of the bonus for two years from the first of September next, I beg to move that this House concur in the amendments made by the Senate to the said bill.
Motion agreed to; amendments read the second time and concurred in.



HOUSE OF COMMONS AND SENATE


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, having in mind the action of the second Chamber with respect to the measure which has just been amended and also the fate of a number of bills adopted by the Commons and defeated in the Senate, I think hon. members will agree with me that the time has come when the Commons in Canada should seek to gain rights and privileges with respect to legisla-

House oj Commons and Senate
tion originating in this Chamber similar to those which have obtained by the House of Commons in the parliament at Westminster. I may say that the government had under consideration, prior to the opening of this session, legislation with this end in view, but we were anxious the public should feel fully convinced of the necessity before pressing it on the attention of parliament. Hon. members will recall that at the close of last session, and at the close of the preceding session, bills which were passed by this House and which touched matters that are very vital to the electorate failed of enactment owing to the action of the Senate. This year we have instances of bills that have passed this House in three separate sessions of parliament, and which have been rejected each time by the second Chamber. I think we owe it to the people of our country with respect to laws demanded by the electorate to see to the supremacy in parliament of the elective Chamber. I desire to assure the House that when parliament re-assembles steps will be taken by the government to obtain, if possible, means whereby bills may be enacted by and with the advice and consent of the House of Commons under conditions similar in principle to those which have been sanctioned for the parliament of the United Kingdom.


Arthur Meighen: May I ask the Prime Minister to be more specific as to the government's proposals? In the absence of any further statement I would presume that what the Prime Minister and the government intend is an address praying for an amendment to .the British North America Act. Is it the intention of the government, on that assumption, to first confer with the provinces?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The government will take advantage of the recess to consider in what form this matter can best be presented to parliament. I have made the objective clear, and the government will take the means which it believes will be most effective in bringing about the result which is aimed at in the quickest possible manner.



RETURNS


Hon. P. J. A. CARDIN (Minister of Marine and Fisheries):: Mr. Speaker, if the House will permit me, I would like to clear myself of the accusations which were made against me or against my department by the right hon. leader of the opposition this morning.
On the 7th of July, the right hon. leader of the opposition made a complaint that a return brought down by my department was incomplete. I referred the matter to the officers of the department, and it was found that two or three letters had been omitted from the return, but they were of no importance at all, and the suibstance of thelm was included in other letters which were brought down in the return. It was only an oversight that these letters were not included in the return which has been laid on the table of the House. They were, in fact, in the copy of the return which we have kept in the department. I am in a position to complete this return, and lay upon the table the correspondence which was missing.
In regard to an order in council making New Brunswick a separate district with respect to the enforcement of lobster fishery regulations, there is no order in council. The matter was dealt with by departmental letter, a copy of which is included in the correspondence I will lay on the table.
In regard to the correspondence with Mr. Selime Robichaud, the officers of the department thought this correspondence was not covered 'by the order of the House, but in order that this return may be complete, I am in a position now to lay on the table of the House this correspondence also.
Another complaint was made in regard to an order asking for the correspondence exchanged with Mr. J. B. Levesque of Trois Pistoles. The complaint was that a letter addressed to Mr. Beland, the agent of the Department of Marine and Fisheries at Quebec was not included in the return. This letter was not included in the return because Mr. Beland says he never received the letter which Mr. Levesque contends he addressed to him, but a copy of this letter has been sent to the department, and I am in a position to place a copy of it on the table of the House. I might mention that when the return was brought before the House, Mr. Doucet, who had moved for it, asked the department for a copy of this letter, and a copy was handed to him on the 5th of July. I am satisfied to have had this opportunity of clearing myself of the accusations which have been made against me, and I am glad to have been able to supply the right hon. leader of the opposition with some literature the perusal of which will, I am sine, add to the enjoyment of his holidays.


Arthur Meighen: I had no intention of making anything in the nature of a personal charge against the minister. In fact, he was not minister when the transactions the letters respecting which were omitted took place. I
Prorogation

complained only of failure to comply with the orders of the House, which failure the minister now frankly admits, and of delay in compliance, after repeated requests. The delay could not have been very much longer and have been within the term of this session. The letters are undoubtedly important. I had sent to me subsequently a copy of one, so I know of the importance. It is not for the government to judge of the importance; that is not a matter for them to decide at all. I referred to the order in council merely because in the body of the correspondence which was brought down the document was referred to as an order in council, so I presumed such was correct.



PROROGATION OF PARLIAMENT

[Stage Direction]
A message was delivered by Colonel Ernest J. Chambers, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:
Mr, Speaker, His Excellency the Governor General desires the immediate attendance of this honourable House in the chamber of the honourable the Senate.
Accordingly, Mr. Speaker with the House went up to the Senate chamber.
In the Senate chamber, His Excellency the Governor General was pleased to give, in His Majesty's name, the royal assent to the following bills:
BIL/LS ASSENTED TO
An Act respecting The Canadian Pacific Railway Company.
An Act respecting the Esquimalt and Nanainn Railway Campany.
An Act to amend an Act to incorporate the Burrard Inlet Tunnel and Bridge Company.
An Act respecting The T. Eaton General Insurance Company.
An Act respecting The Northern Life Assurance Company of Canada.
An Act to change the name of Imperial Underwriters Corporation of Canada to "Imperial Insurance Office".
An .Act respecting The General Animals Insurance Company of Canada.
An Act respecting the Commercial Travellers Mutual
Insurance Society.
An Act respecting The Montreal, Ottawa and Georgian Bay Canal Company.
An Act for the relief of Theresa Anges Sprague.
An Act of the relief of Terry Andrea Maxwell Bruce.
An Act for the relief of Rilla May Freeman.
An Act for the relief of Jessie Maria Watchorn.
An Act for the relief of Walter Scott Miller.
An Act for the relief of Harriet Bertha Wiser.
An Act for the relief of Esther Mary Edwardes St. George.
An Act for the relief of Mabel Peters.
An Act for the relief of William Thomas Trott.
An act for the relief of Lucy Elizabeth Smith.
An Act for the relief of Florence Luella Patterson Kelly.
An Act for the relief of Arthur Harold Mingay.
An Act for the relief of Isabella Guild.
An Act for the relief of Albert Lawrence.

An	Aot	for	the	relief	of Douglas Lewin.An	Act	for	the	relief	of Mary Quinn.An	Act	for	the	relief	of Marie Darling Irving.An	Act	for	the	relief	of Margaret De Medio.An	Act	for	the	relief	of Mary Caroline Dooley.An	Act	for	the	relief	of Barabara Gibb Duncan.An	Act	fox	the	relief	of Nellie Simkins.An	Act	for	the	relief	of Catherine Jean Livingstone.An	Act	for	the	relief	of Alice Maud Knowles.An	Act	for	the	relief	of Jessie Ruth Haverson.An	Act	for	the	relief	of Arthur Foord.An	Act	for	the	relief	of Harold Gordon Hendry.An	Act	for	the	relief	of Karl Peter Hansen.An	Act	for	the	relief	of Ethel Hadden.An	Act	for	the	relief	of William James McLaughlan.An	Act	for	the	relief	of Alyce Wilson.An	Act	for	the	relief	of Lemuel Burkett.An Act Pettinger.	for	the	relief	of William Ewart GladstoneAn	Act	for	the	relief	of Anna McGeachey.An	Act	for	the	relief	of Antonio Pietranglo.An	Act	for	the	relief	of Ella Vear.An	Act	for	the	relief	of Anna Wedton.An	Act	for	the	relief	of Marjorie Mahaffy Cox.An	Act	for	the	relief	of Mary Elizabeth Milne.An	Act	for	the	relief	of Georgina Myrtle Potts.An	Act	for	the	rel ief	of Guy Barrington Hutchings.An	Afct	for the	relief i	of Amy Selaiin Slater Tharrien.An	Act	for	the :	relief of Harold Adrian Proctor.	An	Act	for	the	relief	of Harry Charles Arthur.An	Act	for	the	relief	of Tony Bazar.An	Act	for the ]	relief of Gordon Johnston Hutton.	An	Act	for	the	relief	of Douglas Carlyle Bell.An Act	for	the	relief	of	Elma	Catherine Caulfield.An Act	for	the	relief	of	Alice	Bertha Boyce Baker.An Act	for	the	relief	of	John	Lee Williamson.
An Act for the relief of Nora Pearce.
An Act for the relief of Albert Francis Ray.
An Act for the relief of Irene Mildred Jeffrey.
An Act for the relief of Florence Mitchell.
An Act for the relief of Ruth Ethelind Jackes.
An Act for the relief of Wilfred John Mitchell.
An Act for the relief of Edward James Bentley.
An Act for the relief of Elizabeth Sylvia Cameron. An Act for the relief of Wilhelmina Aird McKay.
An Act for the relief of Mary Ellen McClelland.
An Act for the relief of Annie Jane Bridges.
An Act for the relief of Florence Rathbun.
An Act for the relief of William Samuel Morrow. An Act for the relief of Ethel May Macdonald.
An Act for the relief of Stanley George Harris.
An Act for the relief of Evelyn Eira Awrey.
An Act respecting Alliance Nationale.
An Act to incorporate Merchants Casualty Insurance Company.
An Act to incorporate The Laurentian Insurance Company.
An Act for the relief of Angus Martin.
An Act for the relief of Lester Ernest Greenwood. An Act for the relief of Charles Lawson.
An Act for the relief of Margaret Hickey.
An Act for the relief of William John Chenery.
An Act for the relief of Florence Roberts.
An Act for the relief of Hugh Allan Macdonald.
An Act for the relief of Wilhelmine Christina Slater. An Act	for	the	relief of Emma Doris Perley.An Act	for	the	relief of Arthur Hill.An Act	for	the	relief of Emily Elizabeth	Reeder.An Act	for	the	relief of Merlin Engl eh art	Clubine.
An Act for the relief of Victoria Stella Haswell.
An Act for the relief of Thyrza Ewart otherwise known as Thyrza Hodgins.
An Act for the relief of Rebecca Messer.
An Act for the relief of James Henry Kirkwood. An Act for the relief of Louis White.
An Act for the relief of Dorothy Marie Robinson.

Prorogation
An Act for the relief of Raymond Anderson Mashin-ter.	4 _
An Act for the relief of James Koniaris.
An Act to amend The Special War Revenue Act, 1915.
An Act to amend the Act to incorporate the Board of the Presbyterian College, Halifax.
An Act respecting certain patents owned by The Canadian Sumner Iron Works, Limited.
An Act respecting a patent of Thomas Williams Pritchard.
An Act for the relief of Katherine Gossage.
An Act for the relief of Alice Moore.
An Act for the relief of Alexander Cruikshank.
An Act for the relief of Francis Albert Armstrong.
An Act for the relief of Edythe Kathleen Victoria Canniff.
An Act for the relief of Helen Tuer.
An Act for the relief of Hilda Maud Ward.
An Act for the relief of Rosie Race.
An Act for the relief of Philip R. Marshall Palmer.
An Act for the relief of George Felix Simpson.
An Act to incorporate Dominion Electric Protection Company.
An Act to amend the Customs Tariff, 1907.
An Act to amend The Income War Tax Act, 1917.
An Act to amend the Judges Act.
An Act to amend the Prisons and Reformatories Act.
An Act to incorporate The Life Underwriters' Association of Canada.	.
An Act respecting a certain patent of The Fleisch-mann Company.
An Act to amend the Exchequer Court Act.
An Act to amend the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act.
An Act to amend the Trust Companies Act, 1914.
An Act to amend the Loan Companies Act, 1914.
An	Act	to amend	the	Juvenile Delinquents	Act,
1908.
An	Act	respecting	The	Interprovincial and James
Bay Railway Company.
An Act to amend The Dominion Lands Act.
An Act to amend the Canadian National Railways Act, 1919.
An Act to amend the Land Titles Act.
An Act to authorize the raising by way of loan, of certain	sums of money	for the Public Service.An	Act	respecting	The	Business Profits War	TaxAct, 1916.	.
An Act to incorporate Shantung Christian University.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Gordon. Allingham.An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Alfred Edward Briggs.An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Louisa Elizabeth Smith.An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Annie Thirde.An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Florence Castle.An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Frances Hadenka.An	Act	for	the	relief i	of Louise Powell.	An	Act	for	the	relief	of Margaret Johnston.	An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Hilda Girdler.Ani	Act	for	the	relief	of	Janet Ferguson.An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Charles Whittaker.An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Arthur Robert Ascough.An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Albert Joseph Phillips.An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Patience Oldfield.An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Elizabeth Atkinson.An	Act	respecting the	i Construction of a Canadian	
National Railway Line between Grande Fresniere and Rinfret Junction, in the Province of Quebec.
An Act respecting the Construction of a Canadian National Railway Line from Peebles southerly in the Province of Saskatchewan.
An Act respecting the Construction of a Canadian National Railway Line extending the Gravelbourg Branch to Neidpath in the Province of Saskatchewan.
An Act respecting the Construction of a Canadian National Railway Line extending the Ste. Rose du Lac Branch to Rorketon, in the Province of Manitoba.
An Act respecting the Construction of a Canadian National Railway Line from Prince Albert to near Paddockwood in the Province of Saskatchewan.
An Act respecting the Construction of a Canadian National Railway Line between Eyre, in the Province of Saskatchewan, and Acadia Valley, in the Province of Alberta.
An Act respecting the Construction of a Canadian National Railway Line between Eston and White Bear in the Province of Saskatchewan.
An Act respecting the Construction of a Canadian National Railway Line from St. Paul, in the Province of Alberta, southeasterly 21 miles.
An Act respecting the Construction of a Canadian National Railway Line to Cowichan Bay, on Vancouver Island.
An Act respecting the Construction of a Canadian National Railway Line to Mile 100 on Vancouver Island.
An Act respecting the Construction of a Canadian National Railway Line to Pine Falls in the Province of Manitoba.
An Act respecting the Construction of a Canadian National Railway Line between Lockeport Station and the Town of Lockeport, in the Province of Nova Scotia.
An Act respecting the Construction of a Canadian National Railway Line between Hanna and Warden, ini the Province of Alberta.
An Act respecting the Construction of a Canadian National Railway Line from Loverna westerly in the Province of Alberta.
An Act respecting the Construction of a Canadian National Railway Line between Dunblane and Mawer or a point west thereof, in the Province of Saskatchewan.
An Act respecting the Construction of a Canadian National Railway Linie, being a joint section from Rosedale southeasterly in the Province of Alberta.
An Act respecting the Construction of a Canadian National Railway Line between Kingsclear and the St. Croix River, in the Province of New Brunswick.
An Act to amend The Insurance Act, 1917.
An Act to amend the Post Office Act.
An Act for the Settlement of certain questions between the Governments of Canada and Ontario, respecting Indian Reserve Lands.
An Act for the relief of Gerald Arthur Johnson. An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Malcolm Middleton.An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Clara Louise Kinnear.An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Allan Thomas Easson.
An Act for the relief of Henry Irwin Claxton. An. Act for the relief of John Henry Smith.
An Act for the relief of Bertha May Roy.
An Act for the relief of Lunetta Ellmina Hay.
An Act to incorporate LTnstitut des Freres de Saint-Gabriel au Canada.
An Act for the relief of Eva Laura Bell.
An Act for the relief of Peter Alexander Fawcett.
An Act for the relief of Beatrice Ella Mastron.
An Act for the relief of Herman Kleir.steuber.
An Act for the relief of Mary Ann Hastings.
An Act to authorize an Agreement between His Majesty the King and the Corporation of the City of Ottawa.
An Act respecting the Construction of a Canadian National Railway Line, Kamloops-Kelowna Division, Province of British Columbia.
An Act respecting a certain Trade Convention between His Majesty and the King of the Belgians. An Act. for the relief of William Smith Sco-tit.
An Act for the relief of Rebecca Smolkin Koffler. An Act for the relief of Earl James Sharpe.
An Act for the relief of Henry George Stuart Johnston.	_
An Act to incorporate Joliette and Northern Railway Companv.
Governor General's Speech
[Stage Direction]
An Act incorporating The United Church of Canada. An Act to amend the Companies Act.
An Act to provide for the Superannuation of Civil Servants.
An Act to amend the Bank Act.
An Act to amend the Immigration Act.
An Act to change the name of La Banque d'Hoehe-laga to " Banque Canadienne Nationale."
An Act to amend The Feeding Stuffs Act.
An Act to amend The Inland Water Freight Rates Act, 1923.
An Act to amend The Fisheries Act, 1914.
An Act to amend the Canada Shipping Act, to give effect to certain Draft Conventions adopted by the International Labour Conference of the League of Nations.
An Act to amend the Customs Act.
An Act to amend the Indiani Act.
An Act respecting the Toronto Terminals Railway Company.
An Act respecting the Revised Statutes of Canada. An Act to amend the Winding-up Act.
An	Act	to	amend	The	Department of Customs
and Excise Act.
The Research Council Act.
An Act to amend the Fisheries Act, 1914.
An	Act	to	provide	for	further advances to the
Vancouver Harbour Commissioners.
An	Act	to	amend	the	Montreal Harbour Commissioners Act, 1894.
An Act to amend the Canada Shipping Act.
An Act to amend the Expropriation Act.
An	Act	to	amend	the	Royal Canadian Mounted
Police Act.
An	Act	to	amend	The	Department of Soldiers'
Civil Re-establishment Act.
An Act respecting Quartz Mining in the Yukon Territory.
An Act to amend The Bank Act by changing the name of La Banque d'Hochelaga to " Banque Canadienne Nationale."
An Act respecting the Construction of a Canadian National Railway Line from the end of the China Clay Branch to St. Remi d'Amherst, in the Province of Quebec.
An Act to readjust the Representation in the House of Commons.
An Act to amend The Criminal Code (Evidence as to Games of Chance).
An Act for the relief of Charles Dawson Carlyle.
An Act for the relief of Elgin. Caughey.
An Act for the relief of Florence Ethel Armstrong. An Act to amend the Militia Act.
An Act to amend the Pension Act.
To these bills the royal assent was pronounced by the Clerk of the Senate in the following words:
In His Majesty's name His Excellency the Governor General doth Assent to these bills.
Then the Honourable the Speaker of the House of Commons addressed the Governor General as follows:
May it please Your Excellency:
The Commons of Canada have voted supplies required to enable the government to defray certain expenses of the public service.
In the name of the Commons I present Your Excellency the following bill:
An Act for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of the financial year ending the 31st March., 1924 and 31st March, 1925.
To which bill I humbly request Your Excellency's assent.
To this bill the Clerk of the Senate, by command of His Excellency the Governor General did thereupon say:
In His Majesty's name. His Excellency the Governor General thanks his loyal subjects, accepts their benevolence, and assents to these bills.

[Stage Direction]
After which His Excellency the Governor General was pleased to close the third session of the fourteenth parliament of the Dominion of Canada with the following speech: Honourable Members of the Senate:
Members of the House of Commons:
I am glad to be able to relieve jrou of the parliamentary duties to which, for some months past, you have given such constant and close attention. In bringing to a conclusion the proceedings of the present session, may I express my pleasure at the degree to which you have realized the hopes set forth in my address at the reassembling of parliament in February last.
It is deeply gratifying to be able to record that, for the first time since the outbreak of war, the national Budget has been balanced, and the relation between revenue and expenditure such as to justify an immediate reduction of taxation.
The lowering of the sales tax and the increase in the number of commodities exempted therefrom should serve to reduce in appreciable measure the cost of living and prove beneficial to trade.
The substantial lessening of the burdens of customs taxation effected by a downward revision of the tariff upon the instruments of production in the industries based on the natural resources of the Dominion cannot fail to aid materially in agricultural and industrial development, and, through cheapened production, also to effect a diminution in the cost of living.
The task of readjusting the representation of the people in the House of Commons, under the provisions of the British North America Act, has been accomplished with comparatively little disturbance of existing electoral divisions in most of the provinces. The readjustment will considerably increase the representation of the middle West. The desire to effect an equitable redistribution has, I believe, been realized, and the manner in which this difficult task has been accomplished will, I feel sure, meet with the approval of the electorate.
It is satisfactory to observe that, as the co-ordination of the Canadian National Railway lines and facilities becomes increasingly effective, the prospects grow brighter for the success of this great national undertaking. To facilitate the construction of much-needed branch lines, legislation has been enacted to authorize the construction of certain mileage over a term of years. This statutory provision should enable the management to plan its construction programme definitely and economically. While the programme of railroad construction contemplated by the Board of Directors of the Canadian National Railways has been curtailed, the construction of the branch lines for which provision has been made should assist in relieving in part the difficulties experienced by settlers in sections of the country which these lines will serve, and in accelerating the movement of new settlers to the land.
Among many other important measures, provision has been made for the investigation and study of tariff problems and other forms of taxation by expert

Governor General's Speech
advisers of the government, and for the consolidation of the revenue-collecting services under one administrative head. These enactments should materially aid in simplifying and improving the present methods of taxation, and effect a substantial saving.
To existing safeguards for the public in banking operations has been added provision for government inspection of the chartered banks.
Important trade agreements, mutually beneficial, have been made with Belgium and the Netherlands. Other treaties, aiming at the suppression of smuggling operations. have been negotiated between Canada and the United States. To safeguard the interests of children and young persons in maritime transport, adherence has been given by Canada to certain draft conventions of the International Labour Conference of the League of Nations. At the moment our country is being represented at the Inter-Allied Conference in London by an honourable member of this parliament. We fervently share the hope of all the countries there represented that the deliberations of this important body may aid in the speedy improvement of European conditions and relations.
Members of the House of Commons:
I thank you, in His Majesty's name, for the provision you have made for the public service.
Honourable Members of the Senate:
Members of the House of Commons:
For the peace and plenty which our land to-day enjoys, and for the promise of increasing prosperity, I join with you in humble thanksgiving to Divine Providence.
This concluded the third session of the fourteenth parliament.
Ottawa: Printed by I'. A. Acland, Printer to the King's Most Excellent Majesty, 1924.

[Stage Direction]
i