1924-06-12

SALARIES OF POSTAL EMPLOYEES

Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, yesterday
the right hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Meighen) asked if there was additional correspondence between the Civil Service Commission and the Board of Audit in respect to the revision of the civil service salaries.
I now beg to lay on the Table a file of correspondence.


Mr. MEIGHEN:: Does it include correspondence with the deputy ministers?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: Yes.



LIQUOR AND NARCOTICS


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, I beg to
move, seconded by Mr. Graham:
That 700 copies in the English language and 500 copies in the French language of the Treaty for the Suppression of Smuggling Operations along the international boundary between the Dominion of Canada and the United States of America, and for kindred purposes, signed at Washington on June 6, 1924, be printed forthwith; and that rule 74 in relation thereto be suspended.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk).

Mr. EVANS:: 1.	How many offices are rented by the Dominion government in Saskatoon ?
2.	What is the amount of rent paid for these offices?
3.	Has the government considered the possibility of leasing or constructing a building capable of housing all departmental branches established in Saskatoon?
4.	What was. or will be, the saving accomplished by leasing the Southam Building in Calgary?


Hon. Mr. KING (for the Secretary of State):: 1.	Eleven.
2.	120,839.85.
3.	Yes; the matter has been under consideration.
4.	The annual saving accomplished by leasing the Southam building at Calgary is $3,720.74. In addition there is the convenience and increased efficiency gained by grouping the federal government offices in one building.
Questions

It was also necessary, in any event, to secure more space for the post office, which the ground floor of the Southam building provides.


GRANTS TO SALVATION ARMY
Mr. WOODS WORTH:: 1.	Wliat is the total amount, of moneys paid to the Salvation Army by the government for the years 1910 to 1923, inclusive?
2.	For what purposes was the money granted and by what departments?


John Warwick King: Department of External Affairs:
1.	The only money paid through the Department of External Affairs to the Salvation Army for the years 1910 to 1923 was $30.88.
2.	The purpose for which this money was paid was a gratuity to charity, paid by the Paris Agency office in Prance.
Department of Naval Service: Nil.
Department of National Defence: 1915 Work at olc^ General Hospital,
Toronto, Ont	 $ 66 80
Wood supplied to C.E.F. units at Victoria, B.C	 379	50
1916	Alterations and repairs to
Booth Memorial Institute at Toronto, Ont., occupied as Orthopaedic Hospital	
7,844	771917	Accommodation for C.E.F. personnel at Montreal, P.Q. ..	195	001918	Rental of portable hut, Toronto, Ont	
10	72
Rental of Orthopaedic Hospital,
Toronto, Ont	 875	00
Rental of 2 cottages, Toronto,
Ont	 67	50

Department of Air Service: Nil.
Department of Immigration and Colonization:
Fiscal Year	1 Grants	Grants re Juvenile Immigra- tion	Commission on Farm Help	Bonus on account of Children	Totals1909-10	$ cts. 10.516	67 15.516	64 15.516	64 15.516	67 22.516	68 21.516	67 10,000 00 7.500	00 7.500	00 7.500	00 5,000 00 15.000	00 25.000	00 25.000	CO 35.000	00	$ cts.	$ cts. 1,046 00 1,904 00 2,072 00 1,486 00 2,432 00 490 00 228 00 52 00 4 00	$ cts.	$ cts. 11,562 67 17,420 64 17,590 64 17.012	67 24,956 68 22.012	67 10,292 00 7,556 00 7,504 00 7,500 00 5,000 00 15,000 00 26.500	00 26.500	00 48,997 001910-11	1911-12	2 00 10 00 8 00 6 00 64 00 4 00	1912-13	1913-14	1914-15	1915-10	1910 17	1917-18	1918-19	1919-20	1920-21	1921-22	1.500	00 1.500	00 13,997 00	1922-23	1923-24	Grand totals	238,599 97	16,997 00	9,714 00	94 00	265,404 97
MR. DUNCAN MARSHALL Mr. SUTHERLAND:
1.	Is Mr. Duncan Marshall at present being paid salary or an allowance out of the treasury of the Dominion of Canada?
2.	If not, what was the date of the termination of such payments ?
3.	Was there any communication or inquiry by the Auditor General or officials of that department with officials of the Department of Agriculture in regard to the commission or authority under which salary and allowance for expenses was being paid to Mr. Marshall?
4.	If so, what were the dates and nature of such correspondence or inquiries?
5.	What amount has been paid Mr. Marshall out of the Dominion treasury to date, and when did such payments begin?

6.	What is the date of the passing of the order in council, if any, by wdiich such payments were authorised?
7.	Did Mr. Marshall, while in the pay of the Dominion of Canada, make a trip to France? If so, what was the date of the visit?
8.	Did Mr. Marshall, while in France, have anything to do either directly or indirectly with the purchase negotiations or inquiry into the purchase of the Hotel Scribe in Paris, by the Canadian National Railway Board?
9.	If not, what was the nature of Mr. Marshall's mission to France?
10.	Is Mr. Marshall at present employed as an organizer for the Liberal party, or has he been so employed at any time since January 15th, 1922?
11.	Did Mr. Marshall, while drawing salary and allowance for expenses from the Dominion treasury attend and deliver an address at a political picnic at

Questions
the village of Otterville, held under the auspices of the Women's Liberal Club of Tillsonburg, on June 28th, 1922?
12.	Did Mr. Marshall, as reported in the press on the authority of the chairman of the said meeting, Mr. W. F. Brown, South Oxford's representative on the Ontario Liberal executive, attend said political assembly by request or order of the Prime Minister, the Right Hon. W. L. Mackenzie King, or any other member of the government?
13.	Did Mr. W. F. Brown, a member of the Reform executive for Ontario, when in Ottawa on or about June the 27th, 1922, arrange with the government, or any members thereof, for Mr. Marshall to attend the political meeting at Otterville referred to?
14.	Was Mr. Maishall deputed to inquire into and recommend an appointment to fill the position of postmaster at Otterville, which was vacant at that time?


Hon. Mr. MOTHERWELL:: 1.	No.
2.	January 1, 1924.
3.	Yes.
4.	The correspondence, is as follows:
Office of the Auditor General Canada
Ottawa, September 20th, 1923.
Dear Sir,-I find on examination of the charges made under your Letter of Credit during the past fiscal year, on the vote for the administration of the Agricultural Instruction Act-No. 52-that Mr. Duncan Marshall was paid as Commissioner of Agriculture, $6,000 in monthly instalments of $500 to March 31, 1923.
As you are aware Mr. Marshall's appointment as a Commissioner was authorized by Order in Council- P.C. 223-dated February 7, 1922.
Will you please let me know if a Commission was issued to Mr. Marshall and if such Commission limited the period of his services to any specific date.
Yours truly,
Wm. Kearns,
Asst. Auditor General.
The Deputy Minister,
Agriculture Department,
Ottawa.
Department of Agriculture
Ottawa, Sept. 20th, 1923.
Dear Sir,-Replying to your letter of the 20th instant,-I have to advise you that no Commission was issued to Mr. Marshall.
Yours very truly,
A. L. Jarvis,
Acting Deputy Minister.
The Asst. Auditor General,
Ottawa.
5.	$19,637.98, February 9, 1922.
6.	February 7, 1922.
7.	Yes. May 21 to 25, 1923.
8.	Nothing whatsoever.
9.	Attending the International Congress of Agriculture.
10.	From January 15, 1922 until December 31, 1923, Mr. Marshall was not employed as organizer of the Liberal party. Since he severed his connection with the Department of Agriculture, this department has no information on the subject.
11.	Mr. Marshall delivered an address on 197
agricultural education at a picnic at Otterville, on or about June 28, 1922, at which meeting, Mr. Marshall states, no political questions were discussed by himself or any other speaker.
12 and 13. Understand Mr. Brown made request on behalf of Otterville Women's Club to have Mr. Marshall address said dub. He did so, confining himself, under advice, to agricultural subjects entirely and dealing more particularly with agricultural education.
14. No.


TRENT VALLEY CANAL-LOCK-MASTERS
Mr. HALBERT:: 1.	How many lock-masters are engaged on the Trent valley canal?
2.	What are the names, salaries and allowances of each?


Hon. Mr. GRAHAM:: 1.	38.
2.
Name	Salary	Bonus.
Michael Lafrance, Lockmaster,
$900, and Canal Clerk, $75.. $	975	$315D.	B. Hanna	
900P. L. Knox	900	315J. P. McCauley	
900	315Lloyd Hanna	
900	315Chas. Herman	
900	315Major Fraser	
900	315John Potts	
900	315Wm. Barker	
900	315Jos. T. Dutton	
900	315Chas. Nicholes	
900	315
F. Daly, Lockmaster, $870, and
Canal Clerk, $75	
945	315A. Messenger	
870	315C.	L. Kellogg	
900	315R. Bennett	
900	315Jas. Logan	
900	315
W. D. Edwards, Lockmaster,
$750, and Canal Clerk, $100..	850	315Alex. Calder	
900	315
Alex. Richardson, Lockmaster,
Hydraulic lift lock, $1,200 and
Canal Clerk, $120	
1,320	186E.	T. Shewen	
870	315D.	M. Anderson	
900	315Ed. Wright	
900J. McFadden	
900	315P. P. Young, Lockmaster, $900, and Canal Clerk, $150	
1,050	315I.	Church	
900	315W. E. T. Shewin	
900	315F.	Edwards	
870	315
R. Pearson, Lockmaster, $900,
and Canal Clerk, $100 .. ..	1,000	315R. C. Jenkins	
870	315Thos. McDiarmid	
900	315J.	W. Barber, Lockmaster, $900,and Canal Clerk, $100.. ..	1,000	315
Questions

Name	Salary	Bonus.R. H. Irwin	
1,140	316J. A. Cowie	
900	315W. D. Burgess	
900	315W. O. Weese	
900	315T. J. Donnelly	
870	315J. D. Jones, Lockmaster, $870, and Canal Clerk, $50..	..	920	315
WEMBLEY-FRENCH-CANADIAN EXHIBITORS Mr. RINFRET:
1.	How many French-Canadian business houses are exhibiting at Wembley, and what are their names?
2.	Has the Dominion government carried out an efficient propaganda in the province of Quebec in order to induce manufacturers and business houses to take part in this exhibition?
3.	If so, what was the nature of this propaganda?


Hon. Mr. ROBB:: 1.	Four.
Caron Bros. Inc., Montreal, light, water and power plant, jewellery, radio equipment, metal stampings, etc.
Couture, Professor C., Montreal, violins.
Galibert Glove Co., Montreal, hosiery, gloves. Lamontagne Limited, Montreal, harness, saddlery, wool rugs and automobile accessories.
2.	Yes, not only in the province of Quebec but from one end of Canada to the other.
3.	A commissioner was appointed to carry on propaganda work. This commissioner paid personal visits to every manufacturing centre and announced through the press in advance the purpose of his visit to each place. The co-operation of all branches of the Manufacturers' Association, the chambers of commerce and boards of trade was also sought, and nothing was left undone which would tend to bring to the notice of manufacturing and business houses the advantages of participating in the British Empire Exhibition.


SALARIES OF POSTAL EMPLOYEES
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. W. F. MACLEAN (South York):: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the government whether they have not received a communication from the Letter Carriers Federation protesting against the unfair treatment, as they say, accorded them by the Civil Service Commission in recommending that they be granted lower pay than any other of the postal employees. They take the ground that inasmuch as they give the greatest service they ought at least to get equality of treatment with the other branches. I should like to read the letter, Mr. Speaker if it is in order; it is very short. Is it the intention of the government to reconsider the matter 
and accord the same treatment to these men as to those engaged in other branches of the service?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, the government have given this matter a great deal of attention, having had the salaries of the postal employees carefully considered by two bodies. Parliament has imposed on the Civil Service Commission certain obligations and duties with respect to salary revisions, and unless parliament alters the act and places upon some other body the making of such revisions, it will not be possible for the government to go beyond what is permitted by the law as it now stands.


Arthur Meighen: Has the government
not approved the Civil Service Commission schedule?


John Warwick King: Yes, the government has approved it.


HIGH COMMISSIONER'S STATUS
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. RENE MORIN (St. Hyacinthe-Rouville):: Mr. Speaker, I beg to draw the
attention of the Prime Minister to an editorial which appeared in the Montreal Gazette of May 29, 1924, as to the standing of the High Commissioner of Canada in London, in the course of which it is stated:
An interview between a high commissioner and a minister of the British government requires a good deal of arrangement, and not infrequently has proved impossible, the high commissioner being politely referred to subordinate officials, and such a thing has been known to happen even to ministers of the Canadian government present in London on various missions.
And further on is the following:
If a Dominion high commissioner has business to transact with a member of the British government, he should have access, by appointment if necessary, to the minister in question, and it is a strange thing indeed if such access is denied. The high commissioner's official status may be relatively low, but he is the highest permanent representative of his government, and as such he should be treated.
I would ask the government if these are true statements of fact, and, if so, is the government seeking a remedy?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There have been occasions I think, when the high commissioner has found it difficult to obtain interviews with British ministers, but the latest communications I have had from him would indicate that the British government are doing their best to accommodate him in this respect.

Pulpwood Commission
The question of the status of the high commissioners is being considered by the British government at the present time. When the former Secretary of State for the Colonies left office he had made certain recommendations with respect to the precedence to be given the high commissioners. Naturally the matter has been referred to his successor, and I understand that the British government are not yet in a position to make an official public announcement as to what will be ultimately arranged, but that they hope to do so in the very near future.
TORONTO VIADUCT On the Orders of the Day:


Mr. T. L. CHURCH (North Toronto):: I would like to direct the attention of the government to a matter of urgent public importance, namely, a despatch from the Canadian Press stating that after an explanation of the agreement between the railways and the city of Toronto the government has decided to go ahead and carry out the contract of the Canadian National Railways to build the Toronto viaduct. Is that correct? Has the minister yet considered the legal report he received from the railway, and is he in a position to declare what will be done? Has he any new information on this subject to give the House?
Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals): Mr. Speaker, there is something new on this subject every minute. The minister has looked over the documents, legal and otherwise, which were referred to a few days ago. The matter is still being considered very carefully, and I think I can say that some progress is being made.
PULPWOOD COMMISSION . On the Orders of the Day:


Arthur Meighen: I want to ask the-I
guess he will be Acting Minister of Finance in this respect-when this Pulpwood Commission report is to come down? Will it be down in time for action this session, or are they still in Washington or New York?


Hon. J. A. ROBB (Acting Minister of Finance):: No, they are not in Washington or New York. I am just as anxious as my hon. friend is to have the commission conclude their work. My right hon. friend will understand that I would like to get the matter closed up.


Arthur Meighen: That is a very interesting remark, but it is anything but an answer 1974
to my question. The question is, when does the minister expect the report?


James Alexander Robb: I shall again direct the attention of the commission to the desire of my right hon. friend, and, I believe, of parliament and of the government, to have their work concluded.


Arthur Meighen: There is no expectation at all as to whether it will be down this session or not?


James Alexander Robb: I would not like to make any commitments on that.


PRESS REPORT CORRECTED- MR. GRAHAM
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals):	It is seldom that
I speak on behalf of the right hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Meighen), but I feel to-day that it is my duty to make an explanation lest posterity should hold him responsible for a few feeible remarks of mine. I know he will appreciate my solicitude in the matter, and this explanation may prevent one or possibly both of us from entering action against a leading newspaper. I see in the Montreal Gazette, with reference to the Canadian National Advisory Committee on the waterways project, this heading:
Hon. Mr. Meighen explains objects for which committee was formed.
I feel flattered that that heading was put above the remarks I made. It is solely on account of my solicitude for the right hon. leader of the opposition that I hasten to relieve him of the responsibility.
Arthur Meighen: I hasten to express my
deep gratitude to the minister, and on future occasions when I am in need of like relief I will appeal to him.


SPECIAL WAR REVENUE ACT, 1915, AMENDMENT
[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. A. ROBB (Acting Minister of Finance) moved the third reading of Bill No. 142, to amend the Special War Revenue Act, 1915.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. A. ROBB (Acting Minister of Finance) moved the second reading of Bill No. 173, to amend The Trust Companies Act, 1914.
Trust Companies Act
[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
On section 1-Specified securities, proviso.
James Alexander Robb: It will be observed that the
proviso is underlined. This provision was previously subsection 9 of the section and has been transferred to paragraph (c) of subsection 1 to make clearer its meaning.


Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: What is the idea of the minister in connection with section 1, in a case like this, for example:	The companies are authorized to invest trust furds in such securities as are authorized by the terms of trusts; but supposing you have a trust which is silent as to the character of the investments-that is not uncommon among people who do not understand them-what is the situation then?


James Alexander Robb: They would have to invest in
trustees' securities.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What section
says that?


James Alexander Robb: Section 63 of the act.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is that in this act or in the old act? What does the old act say?


James Alexander Robb: Section 63 provides:
(1) The company may invest trust money in,-
(a)	the debentures, bonds, stocks or other securities of or guaranteed by the government of the Dominion of Canada; or of or guaranteed by the government of any province of Canada, or of or guaranteed by the government of the United Kingdom, or of any colony or dependency thereof; or of or guaranteed by the government of the United States or of any state thereof; or of any municipal or school corporation in Canada; or guaranteed by any municipal corporation in Canada; or secured by rates or taxes, levied under the authority of the government of any province of Canada on property situated in such province and collectable by the municipalities in which such property is situated; or
(b)	first mortgages or hypothecs upon improved freehold real estate in Canada; or
(c)	such securities as are authorized by the terms of the trust: Provided, however, that, notwithstanding the terms of any trust, the company shall not invest or lend money deposited with the company in trust for investment, in respect of which the payment of interest or the repayment of principal is guaranteed by the company, in or upon the security of securities other than those authorized by subsections one and three of section sixty-six of this Act.
This latter proviso I have read is the amendment we now propose.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That is the only amendment? I thought perhaps the first was also an amendment.


James Alexander Robb: That is old.


Henry Lumley Drayton: So, really all that is new is the proviso. The proviso seems to be a step in the right direction.


James Alexander Robb: My hon. friend himself had
that proviso in the act.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I thought it
was the old law. so really there is no change in the law, and this is simply putting the act in more readable shape, is that the idea?


James Alexander Robb: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 2-No loans to directors.
Henry Lumley Drayton: Is that new?


James Alexander Robb: It is new so far as trust funds
are concerned.


Mr. BAXTER:: I see by the note that
this is an adaptation of the limitation upon funds of insurance and loan companies, but if we are going to do this thing, why not do it well while we are at it? This provides that the company shall not lend trust funds to any of its directors, or to the wife or any child of any of its directors. What an ingenious directorate in necessitous circumstances may easily discover is a father or mother. Very often the speculative period of life is in the younger days, and I can understand some young Napoleon of finance whose father or mother is still living calling him or her in aid as a recipient of the loan. Why not embody the Levitical degrees generally in this, and make it broad enough so that no reasonably near relative of a director shall receive any money? Simply to say wife or child does not go far enough, it seems to me.


James Alexander Robb: There is always a limit when
you are imposing restrictions, and we have not heard of any abuse in the direction in-' dicated by my hon. friend. We put in this clause to cure some abuses that have already been discovered. We must draw a line somewhere in imposing restrictions.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 4-Differing provisions repealed.
Henry Lumley Drayton: I think perhaps
we had better know what we are going to cut out.


James Alexander Robb: This is to remove some of the restrictions that are considered unreasonable. The subsection repealed reads as follows:
Any provision in any special act or elsewhere conferring upon any company any other or wider powers of loaning or investment than those conferred by this act is hereby repealed.

Trust Companies Act


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: Just what are these restrictions that are being: removed? Is the minister satisfied that they have not constituted, after all a bargain between the investors and the company itself? They may be intended as a part of the charter for the protection of those loaning or investing money. They may have desired these restrictions. I am in ignorance and the committee is in ignorance, and I think we ought to have a statement of the character of these restrictions and the companies to which they apply.


James Alexander Robb: There is, for instance, a restriction contained in section 67 of the Companies Act which is made applicable to certain companies by their special acts, and which prohibits the company from loaning any of its funds to any shareholder. It is believed this restriction is unnecessarily severe. My hon. friend will observe that section 3 prohibits a company from investing or lending any of its funds on the security of its own stock, but there does not seem to be any reason for prohibiting loans to shareholders on other satisfactory security.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 5-Superintendent to ascertain expense of administration of act during last preceding fiscal year.
Henry Lumley Drayton: I do not remember discussing this before.


James Alexander Robb: We discussed this on the
resolution.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is the idea
there of arriving at the amount of income for the purpose of rateably charging the companies with the expenses?


James Alexander Robb: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I suppose the
thing will work out this way. It will be an open question until the end of the year how the cost will be distributed. The principle running through the whole thing, I suppose both as to these and the loan companies, will be to apportion the cost to each company in the ratio that their reasonable incomes bear to such cost-is that the idea?


James Alexander Robb: That is right.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 6-Consideration of sale may be shares in stock of purchasing company.
Sir HENRY DRAY'TON:	I was just going to ask the minister whether this follows
the usual form or not. Of course, there is not much use in giving the right of sale or amalgamation to these companies unless the stock provision is put in; there is no doubt about that. This or a similar provision ought to be enacted. The usual provision is that the company shall have power "to sell and dispose of the whole or any part of the business, rights and property of the company, for such consideration as the company may think fit-"and then the shares, debentures or securities of any other company, having objects altogether or in part similar to those of the company." I suppose the position is that this clause does exactly the same thing.
James Alexander Robb: It permits the selling company to take shares in the purchasing company.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Why is the provincial company a trust company within the meaning of the Dominion act? Is there a clause in the Dominion act extending this to provincial companies? That is the only query that suggests itself to me.


James Alexander Robb: We are putting in this provision to make sure. I read from chapter 55:
Company or trust company incorporated for the purpose of-
The definition does not say whether it is incorporated by the Dominion or by the provincial authorities. The understanding of the department is that it means any company.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Would it not
be clearer if we were to say: "In any sale under the authority of this section of the whole of the business, rights and property of the trust company."


James Alexander Robb: Well, "company" means trust
company by the interpretation section.
Sir HENRY DRAY'TON:	Supposing we
insert 'the word " trust." Would that cover the whole thing and make it perfectly clear?


James Alexander Robb: We will consent to putting the word "trust" in, it will not do any harm.


Henry Lumley Drayton: All right. It makes the meaning clearer, I think


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: I submit there is a constant, persistent, insidious attempt on the part of the departments of government here -and it does not matter what government is in power-to encroach upon provincial rights. I do not believe that this parliament has the slightest authority to pass such legislation in regard to a provincially incorporated trust
Trust Companies Act

company doing business in its own province. Nevertheless we are eternally getting into conflict, and going into the courts, to find out whether we can possibly extend our jurisdiction. If the jurisdiction of parliament is to be revised let it be revised by reconsideration of the British North America Act and a new definition of our powers. If the provinces have come to a point where they are willing that that should be done, let them say so; but until that time comes why should we pass legislation that is absolutely futile, and just as misleading as it is futile?


James Alexander Robb: Does not my hon. friend
observe that under this legislation we permit a Dominion company to sell out to a provincial company?


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: I had not observed that.


James Alexander Robb: Yes, we are making that
provision.


The CHAIRMAN:: Shall the clause carry?


James Alexander Robb: There is an amendment to be made. I propose that the word "trust" be placed after the word "any" on the third line.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Section as amended agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. A. ROBB (Acting Minister of Finance) moved the second reading of Bill No. 174 to amend the Loan Companies Act, 1914.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
On section 1, subsection 1-Superintendent to ascertain expense of administration of act during the last preceding fiscal year.
Henry Lumley Drayton: Is the purpose of this bill exactly the same as in the case of the preceding measure?


James Alexander Robb: The same principle is involved.


[Stage Direction]
Subsection agreed to.
On section 2-Differing provisions repealed.
Henry Lumley Drayton: I presume the same reasons exist in the case of this bill as in the bill we have just passed?


James Alexander Robb: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.

On section 3-consideration of sale may be shares in stock of purchasing company.
James Alexander Robb: This is subject to the same
changes that were made in the other bill. I propose to make an amendment to this section. In the nineteenth line the word "loan" will be inserted before the word "company". In the twenty-first and twenty second lines the words "which is a loan company within the meaning of this act" are struck out.
Section as amended agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


INSURANCE ACT, 1917, AMENDMENT
[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. A. ROBB (Acting Minister of Finance) moved the second reading of Bill No. 175 to amend the Insurance Act, 1917.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
On section 1-Repeal.
Henry Lumley Drayton: I think this
is a repeal. There is no marginal note to clause 1. In connection with this clause, I observe that clause 1 of the other act is held to be invalid. On what grounds, and in what case? What is the trouble?


James Alexander Robb: Subsection 2 of section 12
reads as follows:
A company shall be deemed to immigrate into Canada within the meaning of this section if it sends into Canada any document appointing or otherwise appoints any person in Canada as agent for any of the purposes mentioned in subsection 1 of this section.
This is to make an amendment to comply with a decision of the Privy Council.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What was the
point in the case where this was held to be invalid? How far have our rights to regulate insurance companies been! impugned? Has this to do with the amendment made in the act not so very long ago for the .purpose of getting at the mutuals which have agents here? Is the effect of this to relieve them of responsibility? Or how does it come up?


James Alexander Robb: It comes up indirectly. The
question was not directly before the Privy Council. It is not the intention to get after the mutuals. That is not the idea.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Does it leave
them out altogether? What was the ground of the decision? Has the superintendent a memorandum of the decision? What was the name of the case?

Loan Companies Act


James Alexander Robb: The province of Ontario
and the Reciprocal Insurers.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I should not
have said "mutuals," I should have said "reciprocals." Does this mean that the large insurers will escape the payment of the trifling tax to which they are now subject?


James Alexander Robb: No.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is it entirely
struck out as a matter of form?


James Alexander Robb: It is to comply with what the Privy Council said with regard to this particular clause.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What do we lose by this adverse judgment?


James Alexander Robb: Nothing.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What class of
activities, if any, will now not be subject to the department? How has the point come up concretely?


James Alexander Robb: The view of the department
is that reciprocal insurers might organize within the province regardless of the Dominion.


Henry Lumley Drayton: With regard to the Dominion's tax in connection with this, that was not under the act. That was put in by' the Finance minister as one of his fiscal proposals.


James Alexander Robb: It does not affect the tax at
all.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 2-Valuation of securities in statements deposited by companies.
James Alexander Robb: This is omitting a valuation
a couple of months before the end of the year, so as to enable them to get the report ready in time.


Henry Lumley Drayton: It is merely an
enlargement in the discretion of the superintendent?


James Alexander Robb: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 4, subsection 1-Superintendent to ascertain expenditure under act during last preceding fiscal year.
Henry Lumley Drayton: I assume that is the same as in the other bill.


James Alexander Robb: Yes, it is exactly the same.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 5-Common stock and proviso.
Henry Lumley Drayton: Perhaps this is right. The effect of the amendment is to enlarge the powers of investment by defining what class of stock of a no par value may be purchased, limiting them to stocks of no par value that have received a distribution of at least $4 a share per annum, with the further limitations which the section gives?


James Alexander Robb: That ds right.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I take it that the only thing that is new in this section is the words:
In the case of stocks of no par value, of at least four dollars per share per annum.


James Alexander Robb: That is right.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 6 (3)-Other securities authorized by the Treasury Board:
Henry Lumley Drayton: What particular section is that? Is that the section which deals with securities to be deposited with the Treasury Board?


James Alexander Robb: No, it is securities in which
companies may invest which the Treasury Board may authorize. The only new part is the underlined portion.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Does that really take you anywhere? It says:
Unless it can be shown to the satisfaction of the minister that the bonds, stocks or debentures whose acceptance is so authorized are not inferior in status or value to the securities for which they have been substituted.
That on its face deals only with the case of an exchange of securities. It would not cover the case where a fresh investment was made. What is the reason of this particular change ?


James Alexander Robb: Subsection (3) of section 60 of the act now provides that the Treasury Board may authorize the acceptance by a company of securities not complying with the requirements of the section in cases in which such securities have been received as a result of a reorganization of the company.


[Stage Direction]
Subsection agreed to.
On section 6 (3A)-certain dividends paid before reorganization to be counted as dividends paid on stocks of reorganized company.
Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the
necessity of this change?


James Alexander Robb: It permits the company to
invest in the new stock in the case of voluntarily reorganized companies.
Loan Companies Act


Henry Lumley Drayton: I suppose the
whole idea is to continue the period of dividend payments successively during the period of time which is necessary dn order to allow the investment to be made? In other words, the change of name and change of status are not to be interfered with?


James Alexander Robb: That is right.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 7-Person or company doing insurance business without a license to be guilty of offence-penalty.
Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the
change in this?


James Alexander Robb: This is simply transferring
certain penalties from the Criminal Code to the Insurance Act.


Mr. LEWIS:: Has this reference to hadl
insurance companies doing business under a provincial license?


James Alexander Robb: This would not affect them.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Just looking over this, it does not seem to me that there is any extension of the offences.


James Alexander Robb: No extension.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What was the
idea of making the change?


James Alexander Robb: In that particular privy council case referred to, doubt was cast on some parts of the Criminal Code as it would apply to these companies.


Henry Lumley Drayton: It sounds very
extraordinary that any doubt would be cast upon the jurisdiction of parliament to legislate in connection with criminal offences.


James Alexander Robb: We are making this clear in
the act.


Henry Lumley Drayton: If there is one thing we are sure about, it is that we have in this parliament the absolute right to legislate in criminal matters. It is quite true that we cannot make a paper offence for the purpose of obtaining a jurisdiction, but these are real matters. I should think that it was really something connected with the method of procedure, having regard to the particular kind of business, I should not think it had anything to do with our right to legislate in this matter.
Mr, ROBB:	The Superintendent of Insurance tells me that in that decision there was an intimation that it would be better to have the penalties in the act.
[Mr. Robb 1


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: Are these sections in the Criminal Code now?


James Alexander Robb: Yes.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: Is the minister having that portion of the Criminal Code repealed, or is it the intention to have the sections word for word in both acts?


Henry Lumley Drayton: I do not think
these are in the Criminal Code.


James Alexander Robb: I would imagine that in the
consolidation of the statutes this will likely be dropped from the Criminal Code.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: These sections are now in the Criminal Code?


James Alexander Robb: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My recollection
is that the offences were formerly in our own Insurance Act.


James Alexander Robb: The offences, but not the
penalties.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That is what I am saymg-all these offences were in the Insurance Act before, and I think I am also right in saying that these particular offences never appeared in the Criminal Code. I think what happened was that ive simply made use of the machinery of the Criminal Code to enforce the penalties for these offences. That is my recollection.


James Alexander Robb: Chapter 26 of the statutes of 1917, section 508C reads:
Everyone shall be guilty of an indictable offence who, within Canada, except on behalf of or as agent for a company, thereunto duly licensed by the Minister of Finance, or on behalf of or as agent for or as a member of an association of individuals formed upon the plan known as Lloyd's or of an association of persons formed for the purpose of inter-insurance and so licensed, solicits or accepts any insurance risk or issues or delivers any interim receipt or policy of insurance, or grants in consideration of any premium or payment any annuity on a life or lives, or collects or receives any premium for insurance, or carries on any business of insurance, or inspeots any risk, or adjusts any loss, or prosecutes or maintains any suit, action or proceeding, or files any claim in insolvency relating to such business, or receives directly or indirectly any remuneration for doing any of the aforesaid acts.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: I think it is fairly well
understood that by a decision of the Privy Council insurance is not a part of Trade and Commerce and that the Dominion has no exclusive dominion over insurance. If a company extends its operations into more than one province, the Dominion may then regulate that business. If a company Ss incorporated by a provincial act and confines its business to that province, or exercises its

Loan Companies Act
business by the comity of other provinces, as it may do, the Dominion has no jurisdiction over it whatever. This is one of the most extraordinary offences that I have seen for years-making criminals out of people who are doing what is perfectly lawful.


James Alexander Robb: If I had read further in the
section, my hon. friend would have known that it excepts provincial companies. Section 508C states further on:
Provided that nothing in this section contained shall be deemed to prohibit or to affect or to impose any penalty for doing any of the acts in this section described,-
(a) by or on behalf of a company incorporated under the laws of any province of Canada for the purpose of carrying on the business of insurance.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: Does the minister not
know that is no part of the legislation he proposes? He has a penalty under the Criminal Code for something or another-I have not looked' it up, but whatever the offence is, there is a penalty for that-and now he asks for a new law to declare certain things to be crimes and to impose a
4 p.m. penalty in respect of them. The exception in the Criminal Code will not help that. If he gets this remarkable and ridiculous legislation through, then in the case of an insurance company incorporated in the province of Quebec, with its business confined to that province, a man going about the streets of Montreal soliciting insurance for that concern will be a criminal and liable to a penalty not exceeding $100, and if he happens to be an alien, to imprisonment for any term not exceeding six months. This committee is paying little or no attention to these questions, and if the members want to pass legislation of this character, they may do so. If they think it is enough to adopt anything coming from a minister of the Crown or a department, they may pass such legislation; but I for one, if I am the only one in this Chamber, am going to vote against this legislation as an outrageous and unconsidered act.


James Alexander Robb: My hon. friend seems to have
overlooked the fact that the whole Insurance Act exempts provincial companies, so that that destroys his whole argument.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: The minister cannot exempt them when he passes legislation of this character.


James Alexander Robb: In the Insurance Act "company" is defined to mean only a Dominion company.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: But this says:
Any Canadian company, or any alien, whether a natural person or a foreign company, who, except under a license from the minister granted pursuant to the provisions of this act, within Canada,
(a) solicits or inspects any risk.
You do not want any definition terms for that. This is simply an attempt being made by some interests in Canada to get absolute control of the insurance business in order to centralize it in the larger cities and to prevent smaller companies in the outlying parts of the country from having an existence.


James Alexander Robb: My hon. friend is wrong.


Henry Lumley Drayton: It would have
been more clear, I think, if we had continued in this draft the same thing that we had in our Criminal Code, which would say in so many words that this would not apply in the case of provincial companies or of agents of provincial companies. But I do find this which, as a matter of fairness, I think I should mention. The term "Canadian company" as a matter of interpretation in the Insurance Act means:
A company incorporated under the laws of Canada for the purpose of carrying on the business of insurance, excluding, however, any British or foreign company which becomes incorporated under the provisions of this act by reason merely of obtaining a license from the minister as herein authorized.
"Provincial company" means a company incorporated under the laws of any province of Canada for the purpose of carrying on the business of insurance.
"British company" means a company incorporated under the laws of the United Kingdom, and so on.
"Foreign company" means a company incorporated under the laws of any foreign country, and so on


James Alexander Robb: What does "company"' mean?


Henry Lumley Drayton: The word "com pany" itself means:
Any corporation incorporated under the laws of Canada or under the laws of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, or of any British possession, other than a province of Canada, or of any foreign country, for the purpose of carrying on the business of insurance.


James Alexander Robb: That is it.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: Leave the Canadian company out of it, and, so far as the language of section 71 goes, any individual alien who solicits or accepts a risk, even though that be for a provincial company, is liable to a penalty.


James Alexander Robb: I do not think so. This has
been passed on by the Justice department.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: That does not settle it for
me: I do my own thinking.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Following up
what the hon. member for St. John City (Mr. Baxter) says, what is the use of the
Loan Companies Act

word "alien" there at all? That is an extension of the Criminal Code. How is the word to be used there?


James Alexander Robb: Will my hon. friend look at
section 11 of the Insurance Act.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Section 11 reads:
It shall not be lawful for,-
(a)	Any Canadian company; or,
(b)	Any alien, whether a natural person or a foreign
company,	.	j
Then the section goes on to state the offence. They cannot:
-within Canada solicit or accept any risk,-
And so on.
Subsection 71 agreed to on division.
On subsection 71A-As to British company or British subject-penalty.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Does this work out the same way as the other?


James Alexander Robb: Exactly the same.
Subsection 71A agreed to.
On section 9-Conditions of license; certified copy of application and policy to be furnished on request of insured, etc.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is there anything new in this?


James Alexander Robb: Yes, (a), (b) and (c) are
new.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Will the minister kindly state the effect of this new legislation?


James Alexander Robb: Paragraph (a) requires that
the company shall give a copy of the application form upon request; (b) requires the company to forward forms for proof of loss immediately on receipt of notice of loss. Paragraph (c) prescribes a form for proof of loss which shall be accepted by the companies in the case of losses occurring under fire policies.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: I suppose I shall be told
that the Justice department has passed upon subsection (c) but if I am told that, it will not enhance my respect for the Justice department. We have provisions to prevent the company from taking what is practically a dishonest advantage of an informality; at the same time I doubt whether we should go so far as to say by legislation that if a claimant fills in a form he has made complete proof of loss which the company is not in a position to challenge. It is a most extraordinary thing; however, ir seems to be of no use to make comments here on these subjects.


James Alexander Robb: This particular clause was
put in on the suggestion of the chief opposition whip.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: Well, the minister has tried the Justice department on me; now he tries the chief opposition whip. Still, he has not increased my respect for this kind of drafting.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the real idea of the section? Is it to make a complete and proper proof of a prima facie case, or is it to say that upon the oath being made the company has to pay whether it is fraud or not?


James Alexander Robb: The policy requires proof of
loss. This form will at least establish that there was a loss.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: Then why not say so? I
really do not like to discuss the thing any longer, because I feel that it is utterly useless. I am not complaining of the minister, he does not know anything about the act and he is not in a position to discuss criticisms, he simply falls back upon what someone else has handed to him. The obvious intention of the section is that a certain form should be sufficient as a form, but the draftsmanship makes it go further and says: If you fill in the form, that is a sufficient proof of loss. There is quite a difference between prescribing that information of a certain class is all that is required from a claimant, and saying on the other hand that if he fills in a certain form there is no further obligation upon him and that that concludes the case. I do not see why we should be dishonest toward an insurance company any more than that we should bear too hardly upon a claimant.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What does the
minister really want to do by this clause?


James Alexander Robb: It is provided by the policy
furnished by the company that it shall be shown by the insured how the loss occurred, and if caused by fire how the fire originated; that the loss did not occur through any wilful act or neglect; the amount of other insurance; the names of other insurers; all lines and encumbrances on the property insured; the place where the property insured; if movable, was deposited at the time of the fire. That is what the company requires; surely the man who insures has some rights as well as the company.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I simply want
to find out what we are doing. It is some years since I engaged in that most delightful

Supply-Steamship Services
of all pastimes, the practice of law, but I have a vivid recollection of insurance cases. I have a pretty good idea of what is wanted here. Under the act, in all insurance cases, technical proof of loss must be furnished. Unless proofs of loss are shown to be valid, and unless it can be established that the loss occurred within the four corners of the proofs submitted, there was a nonsuit. At least that used to be the law years ago when I practised, and 1 imagine it is the law today. I suppose really what is intended here is to say that this particular form of proof of loss shall be accepted as a proper discharge of the statutory obligation to give this proof on which the action can be based. I do not suppose it is intended to say that when that is done there is an end of all question.


George Newcombe Gordon: Shall section 9 carry?


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: No.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I am going to
ask the minister to be kind enough to have the Deputy Minister of Justice look into the wording of this clause before it goes to the Senate.


James Alexander Robb: Very good.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On the schedule.
Henry Lumley Drayton: I am afraid
that whoever drafted this schedule has been out of business longer than I have, because we have an obsolete form in connection with the declaration. I know that in practice in Ontario we have not heard anything about the Canada Evidence Act of 1893 for a very long time.


George Newcombe Gordon: Strike out "of 1893."
Shall the schedule carry as amended?
Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.	*


TRADE AND COMMERCE
[Stage Direction]
The House in committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
Mail Subsidies and Steamship Subventions-Canada and the West Indies and South America, or both, service or services between, $340,666.66.
Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: I would ask the minister to let this one item stand for the present. There are several members engaged at the present moment on the Banking
committee who, I know, wish to query the minister in connection with the item and to discuss it.


Hon. T. A. LOW (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: I would be very glad indeed to
oblige the hon. member, but I have been especially asked to bring on this one item first, because some members who would like to discuss it will not be here this evening.


Edward Joseph Garland: The meeting of the Banking committee was almost inevitable to-day, and I think perhaps the minister could meet the convenience of both those who desire to leave this evening and those who wish to speak on this item. It is just this one item I refer to.


Arthur Meighen: Why not let these gentlemen speak who desire to, and then hold the item over?


Thomas Andrew Low: Very well. The subsidy of
$340,666.66 is the same as in previous years. In 1920 we entered into an agreement with the West Indian government which provided for a service between Canada and the Islands, and a clause was inserted that the government of Canada would use its best endeavours to arrange for a mail, passenger, and freight steamship service to come into effect as soon as possible, and in any case within three years, between Canada, Bermuda, the Leeward Islands, Barba does, Trinidad, and British Guiana. In 1921 tenders were called for, and a contract was given to the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company. That contract expired in 1923, when another call was made for tenders. There was only one tender received, that of the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company, at an increased rate, $584,000. We carried on negotiations for some little time and finally agreed to renew the contract for one year at the former subsidy of $340,666.66 odd. During the year we hope to look into the matter and try, if possible, to secure a better service, even supposing we have to pay a slightly increased subsidy. Our trade with the WTest Indies is increasing very rapidly, and I think this is one service upon which the money would be well spent.


Mr. LOGAN:: I desire to take up the time of the House at perhaps a considerable length for this stage of the session, but if my remarks are lengthy, my excuse is the supreme importance of this whole question of our trade with the West Indies.
Under this item I think it is well for us to discuss, as business men, just where we stand with reference to this whole West Indian matter. The average Canadian, I am
Supply-Steamship Services

afraid, thinks of the West Indies-by which I mean that part of America which touches the Caribbean sea; in addition to Demerara, and British Honduras, an area of over 190,000 square miles, with a population of nearly nine millions of people-as countries low in purchasing power, needing and purchasing the necessaries of life in a very limited degree. Indeed, this is not only the idea of Canadians at home, but true of many of those who have visited the islands of the West Indies and who have come back with the story there is no purchasing power there worth while.
In connection with this vote, which is for steamship communication with these islands, I desire to put before this House and the country some figures which I think will impress them with the great importance of this market, and the great purchasing power of these people. Let me say, shortly, that nearly everything they produce we need, and nearly everything they need we produce. I am going to put on Hansard what I have headed, Startling Facts Re West Indian Trade, putting the matter in a sort of tabloid form so that at a glanice we can judge something of the importance of the trade and perhaps of some of the mistakes that have been made in the past.
These are the facts which I submit are somewhat startling:
1. The total trade of the United States with the West Indies in 1923 amounted to $814,703,262, while the total trade of Canada with the West Indies, in spite of the fact that many of them are under our flag and have a preference with us, amounted during the fiscal year ending March 31, 1923, to only $54,999,429.
2.	The percentage of increase in United States trade in 1923 over 1922 was over 38 per cent; the increase in Canada's trade was less than 8 per cent.
3.	Sales by the United States to the West Indies in 1922-and this shows something of the purchasing power of these people,- amounted to $239,535,021, and in the follow-ng year, 1923, that had increased to $331,274,785, an increase in the trade of the United States with these countries, in one year, of $91,739,764.
4.	Dealing with Canada. The sales by Canada to the West Indies for the year ending March 31, 1922, amounted to $18,784,364. The sales by Canada to the West Indies for the year ending March 31, 1923, amounted to $19,406,333, or an increase in the year of only $621,969, as compared with an increase in the United States sales of $91,739,764.
[Mr. LoganJ
5.	Purchases by the United States from the West Indies in 1922 amounted to $350,970,640. Purchases by the United States from the West Indies in 1923 amounted to $483,428,475, or an increase in one year of $132,457,835.
6.	Canadian purchases from the West Indies in 1922 amounted to $31,532,461. Canadian purchases from the West Indies in 1923 amounted to $35,592,096, an increase of $4.059,635.
7.	Total increase in United States trade, ohat is imports and exports in 1923 over 1922 -and I think this is somewhat startling- was more than $224,000,000. Canada's trade during the same year increased about four and a half millions.


Edward Joseph Garland: May I ask
the hon. member a question?


Hance James Logan: I would prefer being allorved to place this statement on Hansard before being interrupted. My hon. friend can put his question later.
8.	The United States has 70 consular agents in the West Indies and in the countries around the Caribbean Sea, who are really trade agents; Canada has but two trade agents in all that vast territory.
9.	Canada lost in operating the government ships, that is the ships of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine, in the three years 1921, 1922 and 1923, an average of about $265,000 a year.


Mr. DUFF:: In the operation of the ships
on that route?


Hance James Logan: In the operation of Canadian Government Merchant Marine ships on the West Indian route. I will give some details of this in a moment. Incidentally, we paid to the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company the amount which we are asked to vote again to-day, the sum of $340,666.66 a year to compete with the line that was losing already at the rate of $265,000 a year.
10.	Canada buys yearly about $100,000,000 worth of tropical products from the United States, many of which are imported by that country from the West Indies. These products from the West Indies are carried to American ports by American vessels, and over American railways, to a point nearest the Canadian consumption, while we pile up deficits on our Government Merchant Marine and on our National Railways. For instance, last year Canada imported over 2,000,000 stems of bananas, and only 23,000 of these came into this country direct. Canada imported from the United States in 1923 over

Supply-Steamship Services
iS,000.000 pounds of grapefruit and only 400000 pounds came into this country from the West Indies direct.
13.	Here is a very startling statement. It has been submitted to me and I have every reason to believe it is quite correct. It would require 56 trains of 40 cars of 40 tons each to transport Canadian imported tropical products from Canadian ports to the points of Canadian consumption. Yet- all that business is going over American lines. For instance if these fruits are bought in Winnipeg they come in through the city of New York being transported thereto by American ship, through an American port, through American brokerage films, put on American railroads, and carried probably to an American railway point within sixty or seventy miles of Winnipeg.
14.	Another startling statement is: According to the average rate of exchange of last year Canada lost nearly $2,000,000 in exchange on tropical products purchased from the United States. Why should Canada not use this money which at present is absolutely thrown away as far as this country is concerned in providing cold storage facilities on Canadian ships? Why not employ more trade agents to secure increased trade direct to Canada?


Edward Joseph Garland: May we
take the trade figures the hon. gentleman has given as being the total trade to the West Indies, or do they refer simply to the British West Indies?


Hance James Logan: When I commenced my remarks I explained that when I referred to the West Indies I meant all the islands that are washed by the Caribbean Sea and in addition British Honduras and Demerara.
Any true Canadian is bound to ask the question: What is the remedy for this condition of affairs? Why is it that the United States of America enjoy a trade with a country which is almost foreign to them, except Porto Rico, of over $800,000,000, while Canada has but a trade of $54,000,000. What is the remedy? Well, I humbly submit, the first remedy is better steamship service. Mark you, I am not here to say that this vote should not pass. Under the circumstances I think the minister has done the right thing to continue the vote for one year in order that he may be able to look into this matter more thoroughly. But surely, we can devise some better means of carrying on this trade than paying one company $340,000 a year, whilst we are losing on our own service-which is calling at the same ports in the West Indies-the sum of $265,000 annually. Mark you, the pre-requisite for success in
transporting tropical fruit is cold storage- everybody knows that. I hold in my hand the agreement between the government and the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company which has been renewed year after year. There is not one single mention made in that contract of cold storage. Yet it is the one thing that is required, the one thing we must have, if we are going to carry tropical fruits for any great distance. I have gone over the contract rather thoroughly, and there are some features of it which seem to be a little weak. If we are going to renew the contract these parts should be strengthened. We do not provide for any speed whatever. Clause 8 reads:
The contractors bind themselves to run each of the four steamships hereinbefore referred to at their best speed.
That Coes not amount to very much. I do not know what their best speed would be. It might be 10 knots an hour.


An hon. MEMBER:: The treaty calls for 11 knots.


Thomas Andrew Low: There is a speed limit of 10
knots an hour.


Hance James Logan: I do not like to dispute with the minister. I would be glad if someone would point out to me the clause where the contract provides for any speed whatever per hour. Let me read the whole clause, and perhaps it will explain the matter. It is headed: "Rates of speed". It reads:
The contractors bind themselves to run each of the four steamships hereinbefore referred to at their best speed in the performance of the service herein contracted for, unless the speed of the ship is delayed by reason of stress of weather, or by assisting ships in distress, in any of which events the contractors shall submit to the minister the captain's explanation of the cause of the delay or such other evidence as the minister may require to enable him to determine, and the minister upon such explanation and evidence shall determine whether the circumstances were such as justified the captain's reduction of the speed of the voyage or sufficiently explain the delay in completing the voyage.
That is the end of the clause referring to the speed of the ships. But let us pass from these boats of the Royal Mail line. As I have said I am not here to condemn this line. I think they are carrying on under difficulties. They have not the proper provision made for the trade; at the same time they have done some excellent work in developing trade in that part of the world. We have the Canadian Government Merchant Marine, with four steamers running from Halifax to Bermuda, thence on to St. Kitts, Antigua, Barbadoes, and Trinidad, and on down to Demerara. On

Supply-Steamship Services
the other side, on the other leg of the Caribbean sea-that is towards the western islands-we have two ships, the Canadian Fisher and the Canadian Forester.
For some years we dickered with the people of the British West Indies in reference to their tmde agreement; and finally in 1920 an agreement was signed. I have in my hand a copy of that agreement, and I have no hesitation in saying-though I am perhaps speaking against what might be the contention of the department of the government-we are violating that agreement every day.
Some bon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


Hance James Logan: And I will show hon. members how. In the first place we undertook, referring to the steamship service of the eastern group, to put on a line of steamers capable of maintaining an ocean speed of 12 knots an hour. I deny that these ships are there, or that they maintain that service. The clause reads:
The steamers shall be from 5,000 to 6,000 tons gross, capable of maintaining an ocean speed of 12 knots and providing accommodation for 100 first-class, 30 second-class and 100 steerage or deck passengers.
I deny that that accommodation is there, or that it is provided. Dealing with the steamship service for the western group- that is the group around by Jamaica-the contract provides that the steamers
-shall have an ocean-going speed of not less than 10 knots.
I have travelled on one of those boats within the last six months, and I can speak from experience. I was told by a person who knew that we did not average over seven knots an hour on a greater part of the journey. Imagine trying to operate a passenger service in this up-to-date world with steamers not making more than seven knots an hour.


Mr. SHAW:: When my hon. friend is
speaking about ships, is he referring to the Canadian Merchant Marine line or to the Royal Mail Steam Packet line?


Hance James Logan: I am now referring to the Canadian Government Merchant Marine. There is another provision in this agreement which I will submit to my hon. friend who has asked the question, who is a good lawyer-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


Hance James Logan: I will commend it to my
hon. friend's judgment as to whether he could draft any better clause if he desired 
to. evade responsibility. This clause states the ships shall be provided:
-so far as the traffic warrants, with cold storage if this can be secured with reasonable cost-
Mark how it is hedged around:
-as the traffic warrants, and if this can be secured with reasonable cost-
It reminds me very much of the old story they used to tell about the late President Grover Cleveland. When out duck shooting, he ran out of food. In the morning he said to. his cook:	"What are we going
to have for breakfast?" And the cook replied, "If we had some ham we would have ham and eggs, if we had the eggs." No cold storage has been provided up to this date.


Mr. GRAHAM:: Is that the agreement
between the Canadian government and the West Indies?


Hance James Logan: 
Mr. CAMPBELL:: Could the hon. member tell us if those ships could be equipped with cold storage at any reasonable expense?


Hance James Logan: I cannot answer that question and I do not think the Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Graham) can answer it; but in my concluding remarks, one of the things which I am going to advocate is that, if we do not know, we should endeavour to find out. If we cannot operate these ships better than we are doing now, let us scrap them or give them away. There is no use in losing $265,000 a year for play-time. I am not here however to advocate that we should do away with the Canadian Government Merchant Marine. I believe there are some parts of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine which are very valuable, and while I believe the Canadian Government Merchant Marine service between Maritime Canada in the East and Maritime Canada in the West and the West Indies can be of great benefit, the kind of ships we have now are practically useless.
Referring again to the trade agreement, I understand, it was after a lot of dickering, we entered into trade arrangements with different islands. We arranged for certain preferences. Some islands give us a much greater preference than others. For instance, in Bermuda we get only 25 per cent preference and in the Bahamas, only 10 per cent preference. In Barbadoes, on the other hand, we get 50 per cent preference. I advocate to-day that we offer to establish absolute 'free trade between those countries and Canada. No protectionist can raise the question for a moment that there is any interference with any Canadian industry. There are no manufacturers there to compete with industries in this country. For a few years they have been under a certain degree of prosperity owing to some extent to the McKenna treaties under the British tariff. These McKenna treaties, as we all know, are now to be abrogated, and a psychological moment has arrived when the question is how long the patience of these islands is going to be maintained. I am rather shocked to find in an editorial in a leading paper known as the Canada-West Indian Magazine certain statements in reference to conditions as they exist now, showing the temper of the people. In the May issue of this magazine, I find the following:
To say that the dropping of preference by the Labour government in Great Britain has created profound disappointment throughout the overseas portion of the Empire is no exaggeration. The fact that the
Labour government's policy in this matter would seem to be endorsed by a very large proportion of the electorate, even of those who do not belong to the Labour party, is taken as indicating that for this generation at any rate imperial preference is a dead issue. Undoubtedly this marks a turning point in the history of the Empire. The dominions and colonies are now resigning themselves to the task of working out their own economic destinies without any special co-operation or assistance from the home country, and with the feeling that any preference they may now be giving to goods manufactured in Great Britain is in opposition to the principles of those who benefit by it, and therefore not held to be of any high value either in principle or effect. In the circumstances it is inevitable that the dominions and colonies will look elsewhere for the trade agreements and alliances upon which their economic structure will in future be founded.
It is pleasing to note that the first reaction to the home government's policy has been for the dominions and colonies to look to each other for such extension of trade agreements as will enable them to develop trade one with another, and thus to build up a British preference in which the only non-reciprocating portion of the Empire will be Great Britain. One instance of this is found in the negotiations now proceeding between Canada and Australia for an agreement which will give Australian commodities a preference in the Canadian market and place Canadian commodities on an equal footing with goods from Great Britain in the Australian market. Then again, there is renewed interest in the reciprocity agreement between Canada and the West Indies, and a disposition both in Canada and in the islands to still further develop the preferential policy.
The Jamaica Gleaner a leading organ of West Indian opinion states among other things:
There is also the future to think of. If England is again to become a free trade market, if the overseas portions of the Empire are to hope for no preferential treatment in the Mother Country, they will naturally endeavour to find other markets and will withdraw from British goods the preference which those goods enjoy to-day. If the economic tie is severed by a Labour govuument, it will probably also be severed by the various Colonial governments. That is the situation and it is just as well for us to face it squarely, for when we face it we Shall begin to think seriously of what to do in order to ensure a decent economic and industrial future for this country. We have a preferential treaty with Canada to-day, and though no one pretends that it is perfectly satisfactory, it nevertheless represents the beginning of reciprocal trading relations between the Dominion and ourselves. We are not satisfied either with the internal administration of this colony or with the Imperial policy of the Imperial government. We may therefore, have to consider whether it would not be to our interest to develop further the relations existing between us and the Canadian Dominion. If England is to take sugar freely from Cuba, Java, Czecho-Slovakia, or wherever outside of the Empire it may be produced, not caring what becomes of her own tropical sugar industry, our position will be a parlous one unless we can retain on the most favourable possible terms, the Canadian market.
The Port-of-Spain Gazette declares that the ruin of the West Indies apparently means nothing to the Labour government. It also advocates getting in a closer trade union with Canada. That British Guiana is also
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following the lead of other colonies in resenting the course followed by the British government as regards British preference, is shown by a cablegram to London stating that elective members of the combined court are giving notice of motion to be moved at a meeting to be held during this month to reduce the colonial preference.
That Barbadoes views the action of the Imperial government with dismay is shown by the following cablegram:
The statement of Phillip Snowden, Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the House of Commons, that under the British sugar preference West Indian sugar production had decreased has been repudiated by the Agricultural Society of Barbadoes. The society has passed a resolution stating that the decreased output has been due only to unfavourable seasons and that it views the withdrawal of the preference with great dismay.
I might also refer to a resolution along the same lines introduced in the legislature of Jamaica. These are some of the opinions expressed in the West Indies. I have before me a letter written by a very prominent citizen of Kingston, Jamaica, a friend of mine, whose opinion I value highly. He refers to the feeling in the West Indies, and says:
The United States may never get these islands politically, but may get them by commercial conquest.
I have been a resident of this island for many years, as you know, and I think I know what is going on. It
makes my blood boil to see how Canada is missing her opportunity.
And I am here to-day, to ask that Canada fake opportunity by the hand, when it is held out by these people. I commend your attention to these words:
The United States may never get these islands politically, but may get them by commercial conquest.
I have in my hand a letter written to me by Mr. George Huggins, president of the Chamber of Commerce of Trinidad, and also vice-president of the Associated Boards of Trade of the West Indies. It was written from New York the other day after a visit to Ottawa when he waited upon the Prime Minister. He says:
The interest which is being awakened in the West Indian Islands in the minds of those guiding the destinies of your great Dominion will, I am sure, bear fruit, and I urge you to keep alive the question of the visit of your public men to these islands at an early date, for I am sure that Canada as well as ourselves will benefit thereby.


Arthur Meighen: Have the United States
any trade agreement with the islands?


Hance James Logan: None whatever except with Porto Rico. Not one of their ships running to those ports is subsidized, but they have seventy live wires in these southern lands
TMr. Logan.]
securing trade to provide cargoes for those ships, and to develop their trade; while we sit idly by with only two young men trying to look after our interests. The whole thing is ridiculous. We have a young man in Jamaica, but although I believe he is trying to do his best, he is working under most adverse conditions. The trade agent whom we sent down to Trinidad the other day is no doubt trying to do his best, but what can they do among a population of nine millions of people scattered over a number of islands, some of which are so far apart that it takes four or five days to get from one to another. We are simply playing with the situation. The United States have seventy trade agents there. We too should have trade agents in every large centre of the West Indies if we expect to build up trade. The trouble is we are spending money to provide ships, but we are forgetting to provide cargo for them, with the result that our mercantile marine is a very expensive proposition for this country.
As I said a moment ago, I advocate the cancellation of that trade agreement. There are certain to be difficulties of construction with respect to it. Why not open the door and so have Canada with a tropical as well as a temperate and a frigid zone? I think this should be the great ambition of Canadian statesmen to-day, to work along this line and make Canada really independent of the world. We only need these tropical products to place us in that position. But so long as we have to import $100,000,000 worth of tropical fruit through the United States, and lose $2,000,000 in exchange, how can we expect to become a great independent nation under the British flag.


Arthur Meighen: Does the hon. member
advocate political union?


Hance James Logan: I am very glad my right
hon. friend has brought up the question. I went down to the West Indies rather inclined to favour political union; I came back with not an idea of it in my head. It would be absolutely impossible. I never found anybody in the West Indies who would listen to the proposition for a moment. I was always told:	You do not understand our
conditions, or you would never advocate political union. I do not now believe in political union, but I do believe in commercial union. Of course, I admit that there are two sides to this question: We might be willing for commercial union, while they might not be. That is a matter for future consideration and negotiations.

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Let me point out what commercial union has meant to the United States in the acquiring of tropical islands-and this is another startling statement, perhaps the most startling of all.
According to the National City Bank Review the purchases by the United States from Porto Rico, Hawaii and the Philippine Islands for the twenty-five years preceding possession by the United States amounted to 3502,000,000, whereas the purchases from these possessions for the twenty-five years succeeding the acquisition amounted to $3,360,000,000, or an increase of 32,858,000,000. The sales from the United States to these countries during the first mentioned period amounted to $134,000,000, and the sales in the latter twenty-five year period amounted to $2,038,000,000, or an increase of $1,904,000,000, or the total trade increased during the latter over the former period by no less than the suim of $4,762,000,000.
Do you not think that this overseas tropical trade is something worth talking about and worth getting after?


Arthur John Lewis: Are the seventy trade agents from the United States government officials, or engaged by private firms?


Hance James Logan: They are really known as
consular agents. As a matter of fact, with the usual American ingenuity for getting money out of other people, the salaries of these agents are provided largely by the fees they charge for the various duties they perform.


Arthur John Lewis: Have any of our commercial firms men representing them in those islands?


Hance James Logan: You find them only infrequently. I went into that matter on another occasion when I spoke on the Address in reply to the Speech from the Throne.
What the West Indian islands produce now is a mere bagatelle to what they are capable of producing, as any one will admit who has travelled over the island of Jamaica and seen how little of it is cultivated. Bananas at present are Jamaica's greatest crop. In 1923 the export of this fruit to the United Kingdom amounted to 2,758,205 stems, to the United States, 9,680,003 stems, to Canada only 1,923 stems, and to other countries 4,562 stems, or a total of 12,444,693 stems. Statistics show that we imported during 1923 through the United States, as I said before, 2,123,910 stems, and from other countries 23,212 stems. Without any ques-198
tion most of our importations from the United States were of Jamaican origin. Then take oranges. In 1923 we imported from the United States $5,583,844 worth, while from Jamaica the value of our imports of this fruit amounted to only $5,299. Imagine only $5,299 as compared with $5,583,844 from the United States. Oranges almost grow wild in that tropical island, and there is no better orange in the world than the Jamaica orange-I doubt if there is any as good. There would not be the slightest trouble in Jamaica supplying the whole Canadian demand. Why, then, should we import oranges from California and Florida of very much inferior quality to those which Jamaica is capable of supplying us? Away back in 1900 Jamaica exported 107,000,000 oranges, of which no less than 104,000,000 went to the United States. Orange growing was a small affair in the United States at that time. Then take grapefruit. From the United States we imported last year 18,203,134 pounds, from Jamaica-and theirs is a wonderful grapefruit-we took only 401,914 pounds, and this in spite of the fact that we give a preference on Jamaica grapefruit. But, as I said before, we lack proper transportation facilities.
The history of the trade in flour has been a very satisfactory one. In 1921 Canada supplied but 25 per cent of Jamaica's flour requirements; in 1923 that had increased to 54 per cent. We sold last year to Jamaica 199.153 barrels of 196 pounds, while the United States sold to them 173,487 barrels. Canadian flour is the favourite in those islands. Canada has always had a good market in Jamaica for dried salt and pickled fish, but she is now feeling keenly the competition of Newfoundland, with which country Jamaica enjoys a favourable trade arrangement.
Within the last few weeks, the Jamaica legislature passed, without division, a resolution advocating that Canada be again approached with a view to securing improved trade arrangements. This, in my opinion, is the proper time to approach her.


Arthur John Lewis: Could the hon. member tell us what the balance of trade is as between Canada and the West Indies?


Hance James Logan: I have a statement prepared by the Dominion Bureau of Statistics for the fiscal years ending March 31st, 1922, 1923 and 1924. If there is no objection I will hand the statement in so that it may be printed in Hansard, because the figures are rather interesting.

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The statement referred to is as follows:
Trade of Canada and United States with West Indies
1. Trade of Canada with the West Indies, including British Guiana. (Years ended March 31, 1922, 1923
and 1924)
	Imports into Canada for Consumption			Exports of Canadian Produce from Canada		
1922	1923	1924	1922	1923	1924$	$	$	$	$	$Bermuda	99,886	94,799	51,534	989,113	1,078,372	1,424,596British Guiana	
British West Indies-	6,166,664	5,669,471	6,22i,841	2,298,105	2,082,684	2,528,930Barbadoes	2,994,559	4,117,016	7,020,415	1,377,984	1,271,950	1,619,811Jamaica	2,215,531	4,233,195	3,289,478	2,214,164	2,805,012	3,132,042Trinidad and Tobago	1,678,658	2,111,302	1,459,648	4,548,535	3,439,091	3,447,013Other Br. W. Indies	1,225,025	1,962,783	2,049,750	1,829,798	2,016,792	2,702,846Cuba	13,042,568	11,209,920	10,781,047	3,974,432	5,069,166	6,776,605Dutch West Indies	1,505	1,552	829	45,433 66,082 71,967	60,898 118,124 2x4,267	29,521 63,436Hayti	42,050	234,551	161,250	401,659Porto Rico	105	758	927	1,301,979	1,078,982	692,663San Domingo	4,065,910	5,956,643	8,800,060	64,497	168,222	298,252Virgin Islands of U.S	106	52	2,275	2,773	2,145Total	31,532,461	35,592,096	39,836,831	18,784,364	19,406,333	23,119,519
In addition, to advocating a commercial union with the West Indies, and shipping and cold storage facilities, I want to ask that we provide certain tariff arrangements to meat the situation. The ordinary man will tell you that it is no use for any one to try to compete with the United Fruit Company of America. It is a very large and well organized institution and provides splendid facilities in connection with the carrying on of their trade. Their hotel accommodation is the very best and their ships are on all seas.


Mr. HUGHES:: Where is the hotel accommodation?


Hance James Logan: In Jamaica, and, I think,
in other places. To add to their already immense fleet they are providing this year two additional ships of 22,000 tons each to carry Jamaica produce northward. No ordinary private corporation can compete with such an organization as that. But there is what we might call a big stick in the hands of the government which cannot be used by any private corporation, that is, the tariff. A duty of about 50 cents a stem on bananas coming into this country from the United States, with free entry from the British West Indies, would provide cargoes for the ships of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine. If that was done you would find the United Fruit Company itself running ships into St. John, Halifax and Montreal in order to secure Canadian

trade That is the one power that a government has that no corporation can have; and what possible harm can it do? There is no question of protection involved, because you could not grow bananas in this country, even in the Niagara belt, to say nothing of the colder sections. It is merely a question of the diversion of trade through our Canadian ports. I am confident it would also mean a lower price to the Canadian consumer because of the fact that large brokerage commissions charged in the United States would be done away with. If these tropical products could come into our country direct it would mean a great deal to our national ports; it would mean a great deal to our National Railways-and they certainly need it. To-day we have on the old Intercolonial Railway many crews lying idle-nothing to do -while over 2,000,000 bunches of bananas are being transported over American railways to different parts of Canada. Should this continue? Is our sense of national independence such that we can allow it to continue? Apparently bananas are a necessity; we must have them; why not get them direct from a country which in other ways is associated with us, and have them transported in our own steamers and over our own railways?


William Duff: What is the present duty on
bananas?


Hance James Logan: There is no duty on bananas now. I am advocating that a duty should be placed on bananas and other fruits coming to

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Canada through the United States, but that they should enter free from the West Indies.


Mr. WOODSWORTH:: If we had our own cold storage facilities on our own ships would there be any necessity of a duty on fruit coming through the United States?


Hance James Logan: , Yes, there would be, on account of the tremendous strength of the United Fruit Company, which has its organization under other names in Canada-in Montreal, and all over the country. A few years ago I am informed an effort was made to ship bananas direct from the West Indies to Canada. A large sum was invested and finally a cargo reached Montreal and the bananas were offered at a price a little less than the United Fruit Company had been charging. I am told the United Fruit Company the day (before the arrival of the cargo cut the price of bananas so low that this concern was almost put in bankruptcy owing to the depreciation in price and the consequent loss of their cargo. I mention it only to show the strength of this company and to point out that if we had a tariff applying against the bringing of these goods in from the United States even the United Fruit Company would be forced to come to Canadian ports.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Would not a government or co-operative exchange managed in close connection with our own Canadian Government Merchant Marine and our own National Railways effect the purpose?


Hance James Logan: No, I do not think it could possibly be effective.


Mr. STEWART (Humboldt):: Does my
hon. friend think that that 50 cent duty he is advocating would find its way to the consumer, having regard to the usual pyramiding that takes place?


Hance James Logan: In the case of bananas
landed in New York there is a first charge for the New York broker, a second charge for the Canadian broker, and a third charge for the Canadian jobber and retailer, and finally the fruit gets to the consumer. Would it not be better for it to come direct to Halifax, St. John and Montreal, and in that way skip at least one broker, and have that much less pyramiding.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Why not skip them all?


Hance James Logan: That is a question a little broader than the one I am discussing this afternoon.


William Duff: Products from the West Indies should be landed in Montreal by steamer as cheaply as at New York.
198i


Hance James Logan: Yes.


William Duff: Then why do you want a duty of 50 cents per stem on bananas?


Hance James Logan: Because the organization at the present time is in the United States, and the United Fruit Company insist on bringing bananas and other fruits into American ports and over American railways.
There is another matter I would like to advocate. Our boats of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine at the present time call at very few ports. For instance, they pass by the great island Haiti and San Domingo, and by the island of Cuba, in which there is a tremendous trade. My suggestion is that in maintaining this service they should call at more places and maintain a quicker and better service. We send our ships and trade agents to the very Antipodes to create and foster trade. Why not pay a little more attention to developing our trade with these islands in the Caribbean Sea? I have in my hand a letter written by the manager of one of the leading banks in Kingston, Jamaica, in which he says:
It seems to me that if the Dominion imposed a duty of say 50 cents per bunch on foreign bananas and bananas not entering through the ports of the Dominion, the whole or greater portion of this trade could be diverted not only from foreign vessels which transport it to foreign (United States) ports, but also to Canadian railways which now only get the shorter haul, the United States railways getting the long haul, and Canada could make out a strong case (if she did this) to increase the preference on her flour, which Jamaica now grants, from 1/- to 2/- per barrel, the effect of which undoubtedly would be to secure Canada an even greater share of the flour business of Jamaica, and it seems to me, it is very necessary for Canada to increase her sale of wheat or wheat products in countries such as Jamaica, where not only does she enjoy a preference, but where the natural conditions are such that it is not producible; especially as the United States in recent years put a tariff of 30 cents per bushel on Canadian wheat, and more recently, I think, increasing to 50 cents, so that if some such plan could be worked out in its entirety it would benefit in many ways, to summarize as follows:-
(a)	Extra (banana) freight for the ships of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine northbound.
(b)	Extra (flour) freight for the ships southbound.
(c)	Extra rail haulage for the Canadian railways.
(d)	Increased markets for the most important Canadian commodity which the United States are doing all they can to exclude from their market.
In conclusion, I beg to submit, in addition to the other suggestions I have made, that the Minister of Trade and Commerce and the Minister of Railways, with representatives of the Canadian Manufacturers' Association, if you like, of farmers' and producers' associations, as well as newspaper men, should visit the West Indies at the earliest possible cUtfi. and if possible go
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to Brazil and Argentina as well, and become acquainted not only with the actual trade conditions and possibilities, but meet the people. It is particularly important at this crucial time in the history of the Empire that such a vist should be paid, particularly to the British West Indies, to meet our brother Britishers, hold out to them the hand of the Big Brother, and offer our assistance in developing the wonderful resources of their sun-kissed islands, where Nature dwells in her greatest fertility. From our standpoint, we need closer trade with them. The United States has under her flag Florida, the Phil-lipine Islands, Porto Rico and Hawaii to make them independent of the world. We have under our flag Jamaica, Trinidad, Barbadoes, and the other British West Indies, with which we should at least join in the wedlock of trade. They are not only our last Tropics, but our only Tropics. This may be the last time of calling.
We must open the trade door not only for their sake but for our consumers as well. It should materially lessen the cost of tropical fruits to the people of Canada. We must provide cold storage and faster boats. We must provide better passenger accommodation. We must provide regularity of steamship service, and we should make such changes in our tariff as will bind us permanently together under the same flag,
We can afford to be generous. Quibbling over trade agreements and arguments pro and con as to whether or not we are carrying out the terms of the 1920 agreements, are having an ill effect. I am afraid we are grasping at the shadow and losing the substance. There is no question in my mind but that if matters remain as at present, the agreement will not be renewed. Let us go to them. As an instance of what can be done by personal contact, let me refer to the recent treaty made between Jamaica and Newfoundland. The Jamaican preferential tariff, which gave effect to the Canada-West Indian Trade Agreement, came into effect in April, 1922. The Jamaican tariff contains a clause stating the Colonial Legislature might, at any time, by passing a resolution, extend the preference to any part of the Empire. The Newfoundland government did not wait for Jamaica to knock at her door, but sent Sir W. F. Coaker to Jamaica to meet the legislators and business men of that island. As a result, Jamaica has extended recently to Newfoundland, the same measure of preference which is granted to Canada. The resolution, when introduced in the legislature, was passed within a very few minutes
[Mr. Logan.!
without division, although Newfoundland purchases very little of Jamaica's products but sells to Jamaica, dried and salted fish, of which Jamaicans consumed last year over 13,000,000 pounds. If Newfoundland can succeed in securing such a trade arrangement with Jamaica when she has practically nothing to give in return, surely Canada, which at present takes most of Jamaica's coffee and sugar should be able to make a satisfactory trade arrangement.
The psychological moment is here. Dissatisfaction exists in these islands. They need our assistance and we need tlheirs. If we desire to be a self-contained country, if we desire to look to the future with confidence that we can at all times be independent of the rest of the world, let us proceed to the best of our ability to secure a lasting trade agreement with these British brothers of ours to the south. No better use could be made of' one of our Canadian Government Merchant Marine boats than to convey the ministers to these islands to meet the people there in their homes, and discuss with them these great problems, with a view to helping them and helping us to bind still closer the outlying portions of this great Empire.


George Perry Graham: I think this House and the entire country are under a debt of gratitude to my hon. friend from Cumberland for bringing this matter before us in such an instructive and, I might say, so eloquent a manner. He has visited the West Indies and coupled a search for health with a search for information, and we are glad indeed that his search has been successful in both respects. We have had several conversations on this question, and I have found that my hon. friend is saturated with information that he obtained on his visit to the West Indies. In discussing this question we must bear in mind that we are not going so far afield, we are not going to strangers, we are discussing family matters so far as the British Empire is concerned. And discussing questions, with which both the West Indies and Canada have dealt on different occasions, it must be said the conditions changed so materially in trade and in the attitude of people, that I think it is very useful we should at this time ponder seriously on what the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan) has said. The situation in the British Empire, in fact all over the world is peculiar just now, and every nation is looking about for the best avenues of trade both export and import. Now, if it be possible to im-

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prove conditions between two portions of the Empire, that is just as serviceable, just as useful, and just as patriotic as improving our relations with the Motherland. At the Economic conference in London the outlying dominions took very strong grounds on this point; that while we have been endeavouring, to our own advantage of course, to improve our trade relations with the Mother Country, we have, perhaps, overlooked in a measure the advantages that might be gained by improving the relations between each other. The question of better trade relations with Australia has been before the government for some time, and we hope that some result will follow those considerations and negotiations. Here We have, as the hon. member has pointed out, the very adjunct in the matter of products that Canada does not possess-that is tropical fruit. There is another gentleman whose name I should like to mention at the present juncture who has done a good deal to arouse interest in the West Indies toward better trade with Canada. I refer to Mr. J. Gill Gardner, Brock-ville, who is the head of a large milk con-densery. He made a trip of pleasure to the West Indies, accompanied by his family, I think two or three years ago, and while there decided, like my hon. friend from Cumberland, that he would mix some business with pleasure. The result is that he has established a trade with the West Indies in condensed milk which amounts to half a million dollars a year. I shall read to the House in order to emphasize the possibilities which exists, a memorandum from Mr. Gardner, who happened to be in the building a few moments ago. It will show the importance of this matter being considered very seriously at the present time. Here is the memorandum in question:
With reference to my former communications re Canada-Jamaica service, let me advise that we to-day received instructions by cable to ship at the rate of 100 tons (one hundred) per month to Cuba (port of Havana). There are no Canadian boats now running to Havana, which necessitates shipping via New York.
So that one of our live wires in business in Canada substantiates everything the member for Cumberland has said.
I may say that at the conference already referred to, the Prime Minister and myself met the representatives from the West Indies on several occasions. We also met the general manager of the Royal Mail Steam Packet line. I think it is not giving away any confidence to say that our fellow British subjects of the West Indies believe they are not getting the ocean service that was
contemplated when the agreement was made in 1920. The question of a renewal of the subsidy to the Royal Mail Packet line was discussed quite freely with them, but one of the difficulties that arose was this: The Royal Mail Steam Packet Company desired to have a much larger subsidy than the one mentioned in the estimates of my hon. colleague to-day, and after full consideration of what ought to be done in the improvement of this service I think the Minister of Trade and Commerce did a wise thing in not encouraging the Royal Mail Packet line at this time to build new steamships in the hope or promise of an increased subsidy, but to give them a year's extension of the old contract in order that the Canadian government and parliament might have a chance to consider what was the best thing to do under the circumstances.
Now, we can do an immensely increased trade. I hope the Maritime province members will not think me unduly officious if I refer to the situation in this way:	There is
no question but that our eastern friends are far removed from the central markets of Canada. When they came into confederation they gave up markets closer at hand. Now they have long rail hauls, and under the cost of operation of railways now-which does not seem to be growing less-they are compelled to pay heavy freight rates on those long hauls. If the hauls were shorter the heavy rates might not be so burdensome. But with the long hauls, and comparatively little local freight to help to ameliorate th\. existing conditions, the Maritime provinces are not in the best state to reach by land transportation the markets in the central part of Canada. On the other hand, they have all the year round ocean transportation which is the cheapest in the world. They have at comparatively close quarters the West Indies and it is my personal opinion, with which some of them will perhaps agree, that the great development for the Maritime provinces for the moment rests not so much in long rail hauls to the central part of Canada but in the extension of trade with the West Indies which can be taken advantage of by water. Surely if that trade can be developed it will be to the advantage not only of the West Indies but of the Maritime provinces, and that means the advantage of the Dominion as a whole.
I should like, if I may be allowed, to refer again to the Economic conference and matters connected with it. When there, as I said a moment ago, the Prime Minister and my-
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self had an interview with the West India people. , I have outlined what their views were concerning the somewhat imperfect service that is being given under the agreement. Now, we cannot hope to even hold the trade we have for that service because the West India people are getting very anxious for a further expansion of trade and I may say this:	Gentlemen who have visited the West
Indies and with whom I have come in contact, informed me that the people of those islands are in the proper frame of mind now to give Canada all the benefits of a preferential tariff, or any other arrangement that can be arrived at, in order to superinduce trade with them. This is the time to endeavour to do something. Speaking of the conference we had with several gentlemen, I may say that Mr. Phillips, the manager of the Canadian National Railways in London, came to us and presented a request which is somewhat prophetic, in view of what my hon. friend has said to-day, and gave very good reasons for it. It was that the government should consider seriously, in connection with the Canadian Government Merchant Marine, the putting of ships on that line that could compete with other vessels or take charge of the trade between the West Indies and Canada both in the matter of passengers and products in cold storage. At the present time we practically have accommodation for neither on the ships of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine. True we have accommodation for comparatively few passengers. Hon. gentlemen who have travelled to the West Indies and back assure me that the accommodation is everything that could be desired, so far as accommodation could be provided on ships of that size.	But in the first place
they are too slow.	Business moves rapidly
these days. Business men cannot afford to spend weeks when days ought to suffice, on either pleasure or business trips.
As to cold storage; to provide the proper cold storage on these ships would necessitate quite a large expenditure of money, and I am not sure that parliament would be satisfied to spend very much money in order to add cold storage to the present ships, if they were not sure that that facility was going to be efficacious and provide the accommodation required. Take the request of the Royal Mail Packet line from, a purely business standpoint; that company asks for an increased subsidy for the term of 10 years. Speaking roughly that amount paid to the Royal Mail Steam Packet line in the next 10 years will pay for their steamers.


Hance James Logan: Five million dollars.


George Perry Graham: It would pay for four
steamers. I think the period is ten years.


Hance James Logan: Five hundred thousand
dollars for ten years would be five million dollars.


George Perry Graham: I still maintain that
approximately it would- build their ships. When we have a Canadian National Railway, then of course we have it. We need not argue as to how we got it; we have it and we want to do the best we can with it. It is of the utmost importance that every bit of trade the Canadian government is encouraging so far as possible, in a legitimate scheme, of course, should be handled by the Canadian National Railways, everything being equal. I discussed that point with the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company, and they hesitated, but said they always worked with the Canadian National Railways. But hon. gentlemen know there is working and working. I am inclined to think that if we determine to maintain a steamship line of our own, we could build the ship without it costing us a cent more than if we granted an enlarged subsidy to the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company.


William Duff: Sell the ships you have and
buy new ones.


George Perry Graham: I want to finish that
sentence. I say it would not cost a cent more than it would to pay the subsidy. My hon. friend says that we should sell the old ships and build new ones. I say, "Carried; get me the purchaser." We can perhaps convert some of our ships that are of lesser use into a fund1 that would assist us to buy the new ones. But what I have in mind is this: If we are going to stay in the business, we have to stay in it properly. We have running to the West Indies the Canadian Pacific Railway, the Royal Mail Steam Packet line and ourselves, and we are paying the Royal Mail Steam Packet line to compete with the Canadian Pacific Railway and ourselves. That is not business. No private individual would run his affairs that way. We want to suibmiit the proposition which the government has in its mind to the House to think over. We are of the opinion that the development of trade with the West Indies is good for Canada, good for the Empire, and good for the West Indies, and particularly good for the Maritime provinces if we can develop it.


Hance James Logan: And British Columbia.

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George Perry Graham: That is a maritime province. I mean the provinces on both seas. If that 'be true we believe further that there is a possibility at this present moment which perhaps never existed before of developing trade and laying the foundation for future trade for years with the British West Indies. It has been stated! that the British West Indies would like to become part of Canada. At the present time I would like them to become a great part of the trade of Canada, and these things often lead to further developments. The governments proposed during the recess to make a full investigation either by their ministers or some person else, or their ministers and some person else combined, of all the possibilities of trade with the West Indies. Conditions have changed since the arrangement of 1920 was made.


Arthur Meighen: What are the names of
the Canadian Government Merchant Marine boats running to the West Indies?


William Duff: There are six of them.


George Perry Graham: I will get the names. We believe there are possibilities of great development in the West Indies, and that now is the time to begin the realization of these possibilities. Canada, from a sentimental and national standpoint, is entitled to the trade of the West Indies, rather than that we should let the United States have it. We propose during the recess to make full investigation from a business standpoint, to endeavour to meet with the West Indian people as far as possible, and discuss with them what they think would be the best means for mutual trade improvements. If it be necessary to negotiate a new agreement there is nothing in the way, if the two of us desire to make such an arrangement, and I am inclined to think that some better provisions might be embodied in a new agreement. In the meantime we ask parliament to think seriously about what its attitude would be with all these facts in mind, in case the investigation proves what I believe it will prove, that there is a vast field for an improved trade between these two parts of the British Empire. We would ask parliament to think over the suggestion of Canada having its own ships to connect with the Canadian National Railways, improve that trade in Canada and stop altogether the payment of subsidies.


Arthur Meighen: I have listened with
intense interest, for the most part with approval, to all that has been said by both speakers of the afternoon. The significance
of the speech just made by the Minister of Railways (Mr. Graham) will I think be apparent to all members of both parts of this House, but I wish to compliment the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan), who has brought the fervour of a crusader into union with the hard head of the business man and has presented his case with very great force and eloquence. I do not wish to enter before six o'clock into any extended comment on either speech. These speeches consist of criticism in some degree of our past relations with the West Indies, and especially as to the manner in which we have carried out the trade agreement now subsisting, and as well of suggestions as to future means of intercourse and future regulations looking to an expansion of our trade. Let me express a feeling of regret that the speech of the minister should be open to the interpretation that a great blunder was made in the style of ship constructed for the merchant marine. The minister was not fair enough to go back and view the circumstances of construction and the purposes for which the ships were built. I am not able at the moment to discuss the exact knottage per hour, the tonnage, or the cold storage and passenger facilities of the special boats running to the West Indies. Suffice it to say that all are well constructed of the kind they are, all are constructed of the design felt by our best experts to be suited for the purposes that they were then built to meet.
But I do listen with very considerable interest to the conversion to the view that now that we have National Railways, we must have a mercantile marine. It is not without some considerable consolation to me that I hear those who once reprehended viciously the building of any ships at all now reducing their allegation merely to the question of the character of ships built. All this is a step in the right direction, to use the expression of hon. gentlemen to my left. When we hear those who once said that as soon as the war was over we should have ceased building any vessels, we should have cancelled all contracts made, we should have gone out of a business in which we could not succeed, now saying that we must prepare our minds for the extension of the principle; that we must face the building of more ships of a faster and better kind, that is at least a reflection on much of the criticism that we heard during the last few years.
I am in accord with the general peer into the future which the Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Graham) presented this
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afternoon. I am not going to say that we have vessels that will altogether meet the needs of the future. I would be very much surprised if we had. But when we have the responsibility of a 22,000 mile system of railways, we must have as a concomitant a mercantile marine, and when the time comes that we must get rid of the one, we had better prepare the way to get rid of the other too. The two must work together.
I would be sorry, indeed, if any portion of the agreement made in 1920 or any phase of it has not been implemented wholly and generously. We certainly owe it to the people of the West Indies to carry out to the full our contract. I never had heard before that the vessels allocated to that route were not vessels that lived up to the requirements which the agreement designated. Certainly, we should have vessels that live up to those requirements. My recollection was that the definitions of the agreement as to the number of knots per hour, the requirements of the vessels and the designs, were met inasmuch as the vessels applied to the route had what is called-I do not know just how this is expressed-a speed known in mercantile registers which is what is in mind in the agreement itself, and while it may be that the rate is not always that, nevertheless the capacity is there and that is the intent of the original agreement.


Hance James Logan: The right hon. gentleman
is speaking about carrying out the agreement. In the agreement we provide for a fortnightly service to Jamaica and to Belize. I call his attention to the fact that in the report of Sir Henry Thornton, submitted the other day and incorporated in the speech of the Minister of Railways and Canals, in reference to the operation of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine last year, a service is referred to as a three-weekly service, although the agreement calls for a fortnightly service.


Arthur Meighen: If such are the facts
there is no excuse for their continuing at all. I cannot understand how the government could permit this country to be in default to the West Indies. We should live up to our agreement, no matter what it costs us. If we do not, we cannot expect to enter under very favourable auspices into another irade arrangement. They will not feel like depending upon us if their past experience shows that that dependence is false. I shall have something further to add after eight o'clock.
[Mr. MeighenJ


Thomas Andrew Low: May I just- remind my right
hon. friend that we were in default during the time that he was leader of the government?


Arthur Meighen: I am sorry if the only
thing this government copies from us is our default.	[DOT]


George Perry Graham: They could not possibly
do it all.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Mr. MEIGHENMr. Chairman, I had merely made some brief references to the significance of the address of the Minister of Railways, and I think its significance would fall even more heavily on the ears, for example, of the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff); I might name many more hon. gentlemen who would receive quite a deal of enlightenment by what was foreshadowed in that speech; in fact the cup of experience of my hon. friends opposite must be getting pretty nearly full when they now must look forward to a proposal from this government for an enlargement of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine. However, any proposal of that kind will receive fair consideration at our hands. We do not believe in extensions beyond what is required for such purposes as essentially must be served while the responsibility of railway management is upon us.
The hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan) proceeded to press not only for better ocean services to the West Indies but also for more effective trade regulations looking to the extension of trade with our fellow Britishers of the West Indies, and also-and this was more immediately in his mind-looking to the diversion of such trade as we have through the port of New York and over American railways to our own ports and over our own roads. I think all members will gladly get behind any proposals effective to that end. But I notice that some hon. members almost shudder when a suggestion is made, especially if it comes from across the way, that the trade regulation which would be effective in order to turn West Indian trade to our own ports, and at the same time tend to develop that tradd by giving it an advantage over other trade that is not nearly so beneficial to us, would be by the imposition of tariff duties against that other trade.

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Tariff regulations are like any other regulations:	They can be used for more purposes
than one. They can be used to provide production at home. They can be used as well to turn the direction of trade and they are just as legitimate for one purpose as for the other. All that should be before parliament is to decide whether they are effective for this purpose; whether the price is too great or is only such as is adequate for the return we expect. There are of course, some, unfortunately, who for one cause or another are ready to accept anything other than regulations by tariff. Well, for them I am afraid we cannot get the best results by any other means in the present instance.
I do not know whether a better trade agreement can be made than that which was effected in 1920. Personally I was not intimately connected with the negotiations; they were in the hands of other ministers. But as the Minister of Railways said, if anything better can be done there is nothing in the world in our way. There is nobody else concerned; nobody else has the right to interpose. It is between the West India islands and ourselves, and certainly we will all wish success to this government in any effort to improve the treaty that now obtains. For myself I think this country will be ready to go a very good length to achieve closer trade relations with any part of the British Empire, especially if those can be secured coupled with an advantage in their markets to ourselves. Then the benefit will be apparent; certainly it would be worth away above anything we would pay in the way of an imposition on these luxurious fruits coming from the United States. Yes, the tariff is effective both for home production and for the diversion of trade over home routes. They who object to it for the one end must logically, I fear, object to it for the other as well; for myself I am prepared to support it for both.


Mr. McBRIDE:: During the last session I
made a statement on the floor of this House that in my opinion the marine architects who drew the plans of the merchant marine did it without any practical experience in connection with freight boats. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Meighen) makes the statement this afternoon that these architects were the best that could be got. I would like him to explain this: The Canadian Cruiser, a steamer capable of carrying 10,500 tons; crew, 39; fuel consumption, 31 tons per twenty-four hours; the Canadian Ranger, 5,100 tons; crew, 39; fuel consumption, 31 tons per twenty-four hours. One boat carries more than twice as much as the other with the same fuel consumption and the same crew. I would like this explanation.


Arthur Meighen: Well, I .did not know
the hon. gentleman had so high an opinion of me that he considered me an expert in all fields. Very humlbly I must decline the honour. I was born some two thousand miles from the water and I did not get a good start in the education of a naval architect.
I presume there is some purpose in the different design for the two vessels; in fact,
I know there is. What I take comfort out of now is this: That the foes of the merchant marine have seen fit to change their tack. It was not the design of the ships, it was not the fuel consumption, it was not the speed, it was not the want of cold storage, it was not the limit of passenger capacity- these were not the things that were the main objects of attack; indeed, I cannot recall that they were objects of attack at all when the programme was under way, when the full facts and particulars and details as to the ships were before parliament. No, the great blunder then was the building of any ships except for the purposes of the war. We did not need them; a terrible blunder was being made; the country was being loaded with debt-this was the tack pursued as soon as they knew the ships had to be completed. Up to that time the tack pursued was to support the whole programme, but after the programme was so far on that it had to be completed, then of course there was a reversal. Now there is a second reversal, and I must admit I am not prepared to meet this one. I will likely have to take a little time to get some reports on the vessels. May I say that I have never heard a charge of anything faulty in either the design or the workmanship of the vessels. While other countries have suffered grievously in their merchant marine construction because of both, Canada has avoided both. It may be that in the light of knowledge to-day they would be ships of different design; I have not the least doubt they would. Very often one cannot tell; even judges sometimes know a great deal more eight years after than anybody on earth knew at the time. Sometimes that is true even of naval architecture, and so for the present I must be content to rejoice exceedingly in the fact that the early complaints have been abandoned and that after great industry new complaints have had to be found.


Thomas George McBride: I am quite satisfied to
accept the confession of the right hon. leader of the opposition that he does not know anything about steamers; I now realize he does not. But I maintain that the naval architects, who prepared the models of these
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freight boats .did not know their business; if they did they certainly would not have drawn the plans upon which these vessels were constructed. Is the right hon. gentleman willing to admit that contracts were let for the building of 33 boats after the war was over, some of them less than 3,000 tons?


Arthur Meighen: The contracts were let
for the large boats after the war was over, on the unanimous authorization of parliament in the spring of 1919.


Mr. KELLNER:: Was the first series of
charges to which the right hon. gentleman refers proved, or were they simply abandoned?


Arthur Meighen: No, they have not
been abandoned, apparently. How can the enterprise itself be attacked when they now propose to expand it?


Mr. BALDWIN:: Since I have sat in this House I have advocated closer trade relations with the West Indies. It was a source of great encouragement this afternoon to see four hon. members on their feet at once in their desire to speak on the subject following the remarks of the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan) who so ably and enthusiastically handled the question. When I very humbly presented my views the first year I sat in parliament the only one who gave me any sympathy was Mr. F. H. Keefer, who had been in the West Indies, as the hon. member for Cumberland has been. I went over and interviewed him upon his return, and I must say that I have not yet met a person who has been in the West Indies who was not impressed with their wonderful trade possibilities.
It has been said this afternoon that this is the accepted time and the day of salvation. In olden times we used to say "Educate, legislate, eradicate." We hope in this case the great word will be consummate. There is no other territory that this great and glorious Dominion of ours can look to for a tropical trade except the West Indies. It is our last opportunity to develop trade with a country that has a tropical climate. I must confess that my ardour had been dampened somewhat by the way in which the House used to treat this question. I have advocated closer trade relations with the West Indies in railway trains and hotel rotundas, lobbies and wherever I have been. I have urged Canadians, when they want to go to a sunny clime, to go to the West Indies instead of to California or to the Atlantic states. I have met with success in my efforts in that direc-
tion only so far as my own family is concerned, and when they returned they have always had more to say for the West Indies than they ever had to say for California and other parts of the United States they had visited. We should get to know these people of the West Indies, and incidentally make money by trading with them. I am sure that Canada would be proud of any closer relations that developed with the West Indies. Harry 'Crow, a strong political unionist, has exhausted his strength and resources in writing booklets and sending pamphlets from one end of this country to the other. I also have the pleasure of taking the Cuiban-Canadian Magazine and reading it occasionally, I have seen what the great Macauley of the Sun Life Insurance Company has to say. He does not believe in political union, but in commercial union. 'I am a political unionist-


Mr. MARTBLL:: I thought you were a church unionist.


Willis Keith Baldwin: I am emphatically a
church unionist, I am also a political unionist and that embraces commercial union. I was very glad to see the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan) supported in his remarks, not only on this side of the House, but by the right hon. leader of the opposition. I hope this will not be made a party question at all. It concerns the future of all Canada, and we should be a unit in doing what we can to help this country become what we hope to see it some day. Take any large development, the Hydro Electric, for instance; there is always a stage in its development when by the building of a small dam you could starve the enterprise of its power, and we have to go in for the thing largely, issue large credits and secure all the riparian and other rights to make the thing a success, and that takes the credit of the country. I would be willing to see this country extend her credit to bring West Indian trade.
How ridiculous it is that the United Fruit Company of the United States should be able to go down there and control these people! The hon. member for Cumberland has spoken of that cargo of bananas that was shipped to Montreal recently. The United Fruit Company got ahead with a trainload of bananas, and sold them so cheap that when the cargo arrived the people interested in the cargo lost money. Thirty-five years ago, and prior to that, Montreal was the greatest fruit market on the continent for a few months of the year. Fruit dealers came up here from

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New Orleans and bought their fruit at auction on the open market in Montreal. These auctions lasted for weeks and weeks just after navigation opened. The great family of Vipond and other wealthy Montreal families all had connections in Kingston, Jamaica, and they have struggled in the face of adversity to build up a big trade. It only takes a few recurrences of such a thing as my hon. friend from Cumberland described to destroy a business of that kind, and the Yiponds went on until their resources were exhausted. The last time I talked with the dear old man he had just returned from Kingston. They have lost their money through the great nation to the south getting control.
We have good reason for treating the people of the West Indies well. Owing to the grand banking system we have in this country we have branches of our banks down there. We have also a merchant marine of 28 boats. I do not propose to go into that question tonight-neither to defend nor assail our merchant marine-but I say that we should live up to our agreements, whether of 1920, or prior to that or since, and all unite to develop our trade with these islands. I believe we have won the hearts of these people already. They do not like the tactics of the United States. In British Honduras the people were encouraged to grow bananas, and when the fruit was ready they called on the American boats, and the answer they received was: "Who told you to raise bananas?" and those bananas rotted where they grew.
Fruit is a household necessity in Canada, and we cannot produce fruit ourselves except during a few months of the year. Happily the fruit that we raise they do not raise, but for six months they can supply us with all the fruit and garden produce we need in this country. On the other hand, they want our manufactured goods, our flour, and other commodities. One country is the complement of the other in that respect. Nobody thought forty years ago that California and Washington would be raising the products they are to-day, but when they found they had the same soil and climate as the eastern Mediterranean country they started in to experiment, and now we all know what they can do. There will have to be, in my opinion, free trade with these islands, and high protection for a while against the United States. I do not feel that will antagonize the feelings of our Progressive friends, because it will mean that we shall get the products of those islands here more cheaply than we are getting them now. That is the idea. You can go down
the street now and buy bananas for 15 to 30 cents a dozen. Why? Because the United Fruit Company cut the price for the time being. Do you think that company will bring up any more cargoes to Montreal after the experience they have had? Not on your life! It is beneath our dignity to acknowledge that we are too effeminate, too sissified, and too pussy-footed to stand on our own feet.
More than half a century has elapsed since confederation and if we are so effeminate as to allow the conditions to prevail to which I have alluded I am very sorry. Now, I am just as ardently desirous of bringing Newfoundland into confederation as anyone could be. But for the unwillingness of the government of the late Sir Mackenzie Bowell to incur an obligation of $8,000,000 the union of Newfoundland with Canada would have been accomplished long ago. And that money even if it had been $18,000,000 would not have been thrown away. There would have been a return to Canada of far more than any such sum had Newfoundland entered confederation. The same thing can be said of any expenditure which may be necessary to bring about a closer union between Canada and the West Indies. The United States knows the value of the West Indian islands, and I am convinced that she would cancel Britain's entire debt to her if she could secure possession of those islands. If they became the property of the United States we should be at the mercy of that country in the matter of tropical products which are now so largely consumed in this Dominion. I believe that even cotton can be raised in the West Indian islands. Think what an advantage it would be to have a supply of this raw material in a British possession quite near our own doors. On one occasion I was visiting a town in my own county and spoke of the desirability of our having possession of the West Indies. This expression of opinion evoked from a most influential man, the publisher of a newspaper, the remark " What do we want of 15,000,000 niggers?" This indicates how little is known in Canada about conditions in the West Indies. As a matter of fact the entire population there is not one-fifth of 15,000,000. It seems to me that we spend too much time here in cavilling over petty questions to the neglect of really important issues. For my part I am most optimistic over the trade possibilities between Canada and the West Indies.


Mr. EVANS:: I think the leader of the opposition must have been referring to me, as well as to others, when he said that
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some of us were quaking at the mention of free trade.


Arthur Meighen: No, at the mention of
the tariff.


John Evans: I listened with great interest to the speeches this afternoon, more particularly to the address of the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan). To tell the truth the hon. member has given us considerable food for thought. Basing his argument on the ground of patriotism and of Empire interest, indeed of national interest, he has seemingly made out a pretty good case. Equally with the hon. member I should like to see a line of our own boats in the service between Canada and the West Indies, but it would seem that the vessels of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine are not at all suited to the carrying of Canadian commerce. We were told last year that these ships could not be used in the Canadian cattle trade on the Atlantic because they were too small and otherwise not adapted for the purpose. Neither could they be used in the carrying trade on the Great Lakes because they were not suitable as grain boats. I hope the men who designed these ships for the Canadian government will not design any more vessels should we see fit to enlarge the present merchant marine. Finally the discussion to-day proved that the vessels referred to are not suitable for the West Indian trade. I think the advisers of the government at the time they were constructed certainly meant these boats to be a failure. Perhaps they were more interested in private ownership than in national ownership. If so that would partly account for the peculiarity of the design of these vessels.
While we would like to trade with the West Indies we have a great deal to consider before we build and equip the needed vessels, or otherwise foster trade through artificial means, even with that part of the Empire. I have yet to find out where any nationally subsidized lines of vessels have been a success. There was a time during the last century when the United States planned to drive British shipping off the seas, and heavily subsidized vessels of their own. To-day the British merchant marine still holds its place on the seas. Britain's maritime trade has been constantly increasing ever since the war, and it will not be long until the Mother Country regains her former place in the carrying trade of the world.
We might naturally expect that a trade of considerable extent would naturally develop between the West Indies and the eastern part of Canada. But it is very doubtful if sufficient trade, say to provide the rest of Canada fMr. Evans.]
with tropical products, could be successfully carried on through Canadian Atlantic ports. Even to put bananas coming from the West Indies on the free list, and to impose a trade penalty against the Americans, would be futile; the ports of the Maritime provinces are too far away from that part of Canada where the greatest market for tropical products exists. I refer to the grain belt of the three prairie provinces. It is a futile argument to advance that because we have the National Railways on our hands, running from Halifax to Vancouver, these railways must get this traffic, when it is economically impossible to land those tropical products where they are needed in the Dominion, even with a heavy trade penalty against competitors. The distance from the ports of entry to the place of consumption is too great.
Let us for a moment take a look at the contour of the Dominion and the position of the West Indian islands. A good part of those islands are just about as near to Vancouver as they are to Halifax, with a fine-navigable route at their disposal. When you land the products referred to at Vancouver you are over eleven hundred miles nearer the great grain belt of western Canada, the section where those products are really needed than is the case when importation takes place at Halifax. If the Hudson Bay railway were completed it would enable us to land these products in the very heart of Canada, near the place where they are mostly needed, with half the rail haul, even from Vancouver. The Hudson Bay railway would facilitate trade between Canada and the rest of the wrorld, as no other expenditure of a like-sum would do in any other way. The ports on that great inland sea should be developed, in preference to subsidizing a line of boats to carry on an artificially established trade between any part of the world and those-ports. This country should develop her natural channels of trade, rather than spend money to artificially develop ports that entail a land haul too great to be of any advantage. The experience in the past shows that it is a very serious matter to attempt to turn trade out of its natural channels.
We have on our hands to-day a railway problem of tremendous magnitude because of the fallacious policy that was insisted on years ago of keeping our trade going East and West. Sentiment and privilege have-played too great a part so far in the development of this country, and it has proved too costly. The right hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Meighen) says that we are afraid

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of imposing a tariff. He says that a tariff can be used for several purposes, but he did not say that giving a monopoly to any one concern means a price for the protected product that would absorb the profit of the competitor with the duty added. I would like to see free trade with all parts of the Empire in particular, but when we think of developing that trade through ports which are bound to prove economically unsuitable,
I think we should hesitate before making such a move.


Thomas Langton Church: The question before the
House is an item of $340,000 to subsidize the services between Canada and the West Indies and South America. I may say that since this principle of subsidizing mail service came into force many years ago the whole question of water-borne traffic has been revolutionized. In looking over these subventions and mail subsidies, I notice that some of them are granted from the opening of navigation to the close. Others are by contract with privately owned companies. Some of them are simply for a subsidy to the company and the company allows the government to regulate rates, carry the mail free and grants other concessions. In regard to this whole vote, I think the time has come for a change. Hon. gentlemen will notice that the amount is exactly the same as last year, $340,000 although the rates have been reduced. The operations of the boats have been curtailed, and many other matters that enter into and regulate ocean rates must be considered. The people of Canada have the key in their own hands. The principle of subsidizing these services was adopted by the government many years ago, and waterborne traffic was very largely assisted. In those days Canada did not have any National Railways, ocean services, merchant marine, or lake service. We did not have many other services which the National Railways provide to-day. The only nationally owned railway was the Intercolonial.
If you are going to adopt the principle of subsidizing the services to the West Indies and South America for the benefit of the people and parts of the Maritime provinces the system should be extended to the head of the lakes, in my opinion, because it has been shown by the evidence taken before the commission recently that there is a lake shipping combine on the lakes and an ocean shipping combine on the ocean. The Minister of Railways (Mr. Graham) spoke of the merchant marine "sitting in" with the railways in fixing rates. What have we on the Atlantic seaboard
to-day? We have a combine not only in the United States but in Canada as to ocean services which combine is in league with the railways, and this combine keeps up the rates. The members of the combine sit around the table and determine what the rates shall be. Have hon. members ever considered if any money is thrown away in the subventions granted to these steamship services? There is a combine in the steamship service in Ontario and at the head of the lakes, and the monopoly has frozen out all competition in water-borne traffic. Canada has expended on railways, according to the figures submitted to the House by the hon. member for St. Law-rence-St. George (Mr. Marler) in his speech on the budget, two billion dollars, whereas little or nothing has been expended on facdi-ties for the carriage of water-borne traffic. This item of $340,000 is five per cent on $6,400,000 of capital, and here we are asked to grant a subsidy of $340,000. I agree with a great deal of what the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan) said this afternoon. We frequently hear the plea "give the Canadian National Railways a chance" but we hardly ever hear any one say "give the merchant marine a chance." It would be far better if you gave the merchant marine a show, and you would not have to grant subsidies for this mail service. Why can the merchant marine not perform the functions which these boats perform? If hon. gentlemen will look into the history of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine, they will see that it was the intention of the government that they should perform services for the Trade and Commerce department in conjunction with the railways, and in that way effect considerable economy. If hon. gentlemen look over the statement of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine on the Atlantic seaboard they will find that there is a deficit to-day, according to the last statement, of $9,368,000, of all charges including depreciation and interest. The report states:
The main reasons for the decrease in operating deficit were the cancellation of South American, Mediterranean and certain other unremunerative services, also the curtailment as far as possible of general expenses.
The report further says:
Generally speaking full cargoes on outward trips were secured, but satisfactory cargoes were not obtainable for homeward trips, which naturally increased operating expenses out of all proportion to operating revenues.
Then it is stated that the department should take over some of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine boats and operate them to the West Indies and South America. If that were done we could rebuild a great many of the ships that are sailing to many ports of the
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world to-day but which are not making enough on inward bound traffic to pay their way. They say we should rebuild these ships and also build additional ships; that we should follow the same line of campaign as we pursue in regard to the railway service-build faster ships which would carry passengers and which would be provided with cold storage facilities and up-to-date equipment. If the government would take over this line, and operate the boats all the year round, I am satisfied they would make a handsome profit. What has been the history of ocean traffic the world over? Where you have a volume of traffic, the bigger the ships, the larger the business in passengers, freight and everything else.
I agree with What the hon. member for Cumberland said to-day. I think he is to be congratulated on giving the committee so much information in regard to this important problem. Duplication is going on between privately owned ships and the government service. In the case of the West Indies the passenger service by the merchant marine is as follows according to page 10 of the merchant marine report:
In accordance with the trade agreement consummated during the year with the British West Indies, two of your vessels, the Canadian Fisher and Canadian Forester of 5,100 tons each, have been fitted with passenger accommodation, and a regular service every three weeks is being established between Canada and the Bahamas, Jamaica and British Honduras. While the boats now in commission only carry 26 cabin passengers, the accommodation provided is of such excellent character that they should attract a full passenger list for each sailing. It is hoped that the regularity of the service will build up a fine freight business in the interchange of the products of these islands and Canada. The first vessel sailed from Halifax on January 25, 1921, with a full complement of passengers and a cargo of flour, potatoes, oats, cement and general merchandise.
It must be remembered in connection with this service that the Canadian Government Merchant Marine are pioneers in opening up a new route with a view to developing and extending Canada's trade. As it has been the practice of many governments to supplement the earnings of companies engaged in this work, and as steamship subsidies are paid by the Dominion government for services that are much more remunerative than this West Indies service, it would only be reasonable that your company should be guaranteed against loss when engaged, as in this case, in opening up a new route at the request of the government.
The report refers also to the freight service and return cargoes to South America. It states that all of the above are freight services and that the vessels on the Nassau, Kingston and Belize service have some passenger accommodation. It also states that regular cargo services are now established to points in the United Kingdom, to Australia and New Zealand, to the West Indies and to South America. I do not believe they 
have had a proper chance or can have a proper chance on account of the way in which they have been operated. If we expand the services and build some new fast steamships to take care of this traffic between Canada and the West Indies and South America as the Americans are doing to-day, that would be a good thing for the Maritime provinces and for the merchant marine and would act as a feeder for the National Railways. I admire the people of the United States. They have been rebuilding their merchant marine; they have been going out to the West Indies, down to South America and upon the seven seas, and to-day they are securing the trade. I should like to read from the National City Banks' Trade Bulletin of recent date, to show the way in which the United States' merchant marine to-day are working in conjunction with a great steam railway on the Atlantic seaboard in order to secure the trade for the United States. I will give the committee a comparison between the years 1913 and 1922, the last year of record, of the business done between the United States and) the West Indies and South America,, showing how trade has doubled. Argentina took 33 per cent of her total imports from the United States in 1920 as against 15 per cent in 1913. Brazil took 16 per cent of her total imports from the United States in 1913. In 1921 that had increased to 32 per cent. Chile in 1913 took 17 per cent from the United States. This increased to 32 per cent in 1923. Peru in 1913 took 28 per cent. This increased to 55 per cent in 1923. The same is true all the way down. The same is the case in connection with the West Indies. The United States has come out of the war with a great merchant marine. It is going out not only to the West Indies and South America, but to the seven seas of the world with its merchant marine and getting the trade. There is a field on the ocean and in 9 p.m. the West Indies as yet unexplored for the Canadian National Railways if they get proper, up-to-date ocean and lake services, not only to take care of the traffic which offers but to provide feeders for the railway in the same way as the United states merchant marine is building up the railways of that country.
There is also the question of the control of rates to be considered in connection with this vote. The minister has, I understand, in exchange for the subsidies the power to regulate the rates, and the boats carry the mails free. That principle of control should be extended at the head of the lakes. The

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abuse of the whole subsidy principle has been dealt with very elaborately in the lake shipping inquiry report and in the ocean shipping inquiry report. You have just to read those reports from cover to cover to see how the subsidy principle has been abused in the past, how the ships to-day are not earning the subsidies which they are being given and how some new system should be established by the department involving the utilization of government-owned ships. When I drew this matter to the attention of the minister last session, he said that there was a good deal of argument in it. I contend that these subsidies should be extended to the lakes as well where there is also some need of assistance and where there is a combine. The great regulator of rail rates is water-borne traffic. The only competition the railways have to-day is the ocean service and the lake service, and now that these ocean services and lake services are in a combine, there is no' competition at all. On the north shore of lake Ontario from Hamilton down to Belleville and with regard to towns on the St. Lawrence river, there is a monopoly and the boats can charge whatever rates they like. They are under the control of nobody and this is an abuse which should be remedied. These subsidies are mainly under contract; the contracts also vary and there should be a standard form of government contract. I do not believe there is a standard form of contract because some are for one period of time and some for another. Some carry the mails free. Some contracts have government regulation of rates and some have not.
It would be a good policy for the Minister of Railways and Canals to bring down a vote in this House so as to have a proper lake and ocean service from the merchant marine and thus aid as a feeder the National Railways. It would be a bright day for the Maritime provinces if such a state of affairs were brought about. What is the object of spending all this money on harbours for the Maritime provinces if these merchant marine ships are to be sold? What is to become of the Canadian National Railways without up-to-date ocean services? Let us see what the Canadian Pacific, the competitor of the National Railways are doing. They started as a Tailway. They spread to ocean services, lake services, hotel services, land services, and to-day they are 'a great railway paying dividends to 140,000 shareholders in connection with services established on ocean and on land. To-day they are a success. Parliament is voting $28,000,000 for branch lines; we have spent nearly $2,000,000,000 on railway land services, and we have spent little or nothing on ocean services. How can these all be a success if they are half starved? Some of these boats are old boats, not properly fitted out. They should be re-built, some for ocean services and some for lake services. There should be cold storage facilities on the lake and ocean boats, and they should be able to take care of fast passenger, package freight and express business. In that way you can build up the ports of St. John and Halifax and all the other ports on the gulf and seaboard. Let us take a leaf out of the book of the United States, where the people have done something to capture the balance of trade of the West Indies and South America. We pay subsidies for the carriage of mail and package freight, but I think this policy has outlived its usefulness, and the sooner the government realize that every up-to-date railway system must have proper ocean services on the Atlantic seaboard, on the gulf and on the lakes the better it will be for the revenues of our National Railways. Ocean rates are now under the -control of nobody apparently. I do urge on the minister to have a proper survey made to see whether something cannot be done to rebuild, extend and broaden out our Canadian Government Merchant Marine and put it in a condition to be of real sendee to the country. Some of our boats can be rebuilt and made available for the traffic which we are now subsidizing. When we look over the list we are told that one boat is not fitted for this traffic, another is not fitted for that traffic-in a word we find that they are fitted neither for mail nor package freight traffic. Who is to blame for building ships of that class, what, if anything, are they fit for? I repeat, we should have a survey made, and whatever boats are not suitable should be altered and made available for the mail service and general freight purposes on lake and ocean for which we are now subsidizing private companies to the extent of $340,000, for the West Indian and South American route alone.
Why should our boats be put on routes all over the world which do not give an adequate return cargo? In the last ten or fifteen years to my own knowledge there has been an elaborate West Indies and South America exhibit at our Canadian National Exhibition to show the people of Canada what the West Indies and South America produce and how we can expand our trade with our fellow Britishers in the West Indies and with
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the people of the Latin republics to the south. Once we solve our problem of ocean transportation, as the American people have done, vve shall get some return for the money we have spent on our mercantile marine, and I am confident that a proper survey will prove that some of these boats can be rebuilt and made available for the traffic which we now attempt to encourage by subsidies. We should build some new fast ships as well. Let the minister come down with a large vote for the purpose, and I think he will get support from both sides of the House. The question of West Indian trade has vast possibilities if the opportunity is properly taken advantage of.


James Joseph Hughes: Mr. Chairman, the development of our trade with the West Indian islands is the most important question from the Maritime standpoint that can be discussed this session. In fact, I would not be exaggerating if I said that the solution of this problem is almost vital to the provinces down by the sea. Owing to certain reasons, which I need not state, the Maritime provinces are shut off from trade with our neighbours to the south except to a very limited extent. The only countries we can trade are with the West Indian islands and Great Britain; we cannot trade with central Canada except in a one-sided way. The hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan) has so well covered the ground that very little more need be said. My remarks will apply to the Maritime provinces generally and to Prince Edward Island in particular.
The farmers in central Canada can supply, and more than supply, the food requirements of the cities in these parts, and no matter what the freight rates may be we cannot enter this market to any considerable extent. In fact the farmers of this part of the Dominion and farther west enter the small market that we have in St. John, Halifax and the Sydneys and compete with us. Now, the West Indian islands lie close to us as far as transportation rates are concerned, for water-borne commerce is the cheapest in the world. They require nearly everything that we produce, except, I presume, coal; our butter, our cheese, our eggs, our fish, our hay, our grain, our potatoes, our lumber find a market there; and in turn we want what they produce. Therefore the trade seems to be a natural exchange, and anything that can be done to foster and develop it will enure to the advantage of both countries. For the reasons that I have mentioned confederation has never been, and never can be, of any advantage to the Maritime provinces and un-
less we can get compensation by developing our trade with the West Indian islands, we obtain no return for our contribution to the general fund.
These are the reasons why the provinces by the sea have not progressed with the rest of Canada. We have many natural resources; our people are industrious and they compare in intelligence, I think, with the people of other parts of Canada. But we are handicapped by our geographical position. We can never be a manufacturing centre and compete with the manufacturers in this part of Canada, because our power would be derived from coal, which cannot compete in price with the electric power developed from the immense water powers of Ontario and Quebec. The extent to which cheap electric power can be developed in those two provinces gives them an advantage that no other part of Canada possesses, except, perhaps, British Columbia, and it is an advantage which, I should think, ought to enable them to meet all reasonable competition without their asking for any considerable aid through a tariff. With these great natural advantages, Ontario and Quebec ought to be in a fair way to meet the competition of the world. So it is vital to us, if we are to maintain our place at all, that this West India market shall be developed. I was more than pleased this afternoon to hear the Minister of Railways say that the matter was receiving the serious attention of the government and. that the business men of the Maritime provinces would be called into consultation with the government and the officials of the department to devise the best methods that could be followed. That is certainly the proper course to pursue and it will necessarily bring results.
Just a word in regard to trade commissioners, a matter which was referred to by the hon. member for Cumberland. From a question asked by an hon. member on the other side I gathered that he thought the government should not incur the expense of sending trade commissioners there, but that the cost of anything in that line should be borne by the people engaged in the trade. There may be something to be said for that, but in the initial stages I think the government would have to send some trade commissioners. This, however, is the point I make, and I think it will appeal to every member of the committee: if we send trade commissioners at all they ought to be the most suitable men for that purpose who can be found. There is very little use in sending young, inexperienced men to those places. Whatever professional men or men trained in the law

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may think of it, no business man would entertain the idea for a moment no matter how intelligent they may be, these young men have not had the experience, and nothing can take the place of experience in trade matters. The very best trade commissioners would be men who have actually been engaged for some years in the business of import and export, men who have traded with these islands, men who naturally know the business and have had the experience. It does not matter how old they are; the older the better, provided they are active and able to do their work. If the Civil Service Act will not permit that to be done, I should think parliament would be willing to pass a measure giving to the Department of Trade and Commerce the right to appoint trade commissioners. When Mr. Breadner, a former member of the staff of the Customs department, was some years ago placed at the head of the Income Tax branch, being a practical man he stipulated that he be allowed to appoint his own men, and parliament gave him that power. He wanted practical men in that service and he determined that if they were to be appointed by the Civil Service Commission he would not take charge of that department. Of course the Civil Service Commission do not appoint the officials of the railways or of the merchant marine. In saying this I make no reflection whatever on the Civil Service Commission; very likely they are able to select suitable men for some branches of the service where education and intelligence are the chief requirements and where technical experience does not count for so much. But in this branch of the service nothing will take the place of actual practical experience, and every business man in Canada, I think, will endorse that statement. This matter is of great importance, and I am sure that the House would be willing to make any change by way of enactment that might be necessary to bring about the desired end in this respect.
There is little more to be added to the very able presentation of the ease by the hon. member for Cumberland and to the really pregnant statement made by the Minister of Railways. I think the views which I have presented are in accordance with the business view, and I trust that the matter will not be allowed to rest but that it will be taken up and proceeded with in order to obtain results quickly.


William Findlay Maclean: I had not the
advantage of being in the House this afternoon while the discussion was on, but I have 199
heard some of it to-night and I have also heard references made to what was said this afternoon. I know of no question of greater importance to the people of Canada than the extension of its services by sea for the expansion of our trade. The greatest example of success in the way of transportation in the world to-day is found in the National Railways owned by the people of Canada. There is nothing like it in the way of solving the transportation problem. The question of profits for shareholders has been eliminated and the whole problem has resolved itself into an attempt to give service at cost and to expand that service wherever possible. We do not quite realize here how successful that has been. It has made the rival of the Canadian National lines, the Canadian Pacific, see they are up against something they never thought would happen. They thought the old Intercolonial was to continue; they thought the old Grand Trunk was to continue; they thought that all the privately owned roads we had in this country would continue, and that they would have an easy chance perhaps to beat them out. But the amalgamation of these roads and the success of the Canadian National Railway has put the Canadian Pacific up on its toes.
Now, if we have succeeded, and we have succeeded, in connection with the Canadian National Railways, why should we not begin to apply that same principle to the handling of lake and ocean services? Why not expand the principle of public ownership a little, and let the management of the Canadian National Railways have in their charge transportation by water, whether by lake or by sea, as well as transportation by rail? If we did that we would then have a service by rail, a sea service, and a lake service, the whole underlying principle of which would be service at cost, service without profit for the Shareholders. That principle has proven so successful in connection with our railway that there should be no doubt of the success of its application to water transportation, either by lake or by sea. I would be prepared to do this, although I know the Canadian Pacific would not accept it: I think the Canadian Pacific might well consider whether the time had not come for them to consolidate perhaps in some way with the Canadian National Railway as far as railway transportation is concerned, and perhaps they would turn over their lake and sea service to a national transportation organization which would apply not only to land traffic but to water traffic as well. That may be rather an advanced idea to sug-

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gest, but something like that has to be worked out.
If you read the papers as I have been reading them the last few days, you will see that the greatest monopoly that exists today is the combination that exists in lake and sea traffic. The whole of our lake traffic is controlled by one company, and the sea traffic is largely controlled by combines. If you want evidence of this take up one of the Winnipeg papers of this week, in which the farmers are told that it will be necessary for the government of this country to take up the question of ocean transportation. The farmers of the West can raise any amount of live stock now, and they could supply the whole meat requirements of a large proportion of Europe if they could only get low transportation rates by sea; but they cannot get them. As was pointed out by the Winnipeg Free Press this week, it costs 820 to transport a live bullock from an Atlantic port to a British port. There is no reason why Canada should not engage in sea traffic in the same way that she has in railway traffic, and get a few vessels to begin with to transport the live stock products of the Canadian West across the ocean. I am sure they would be able to bring the rate down from $20 to $10, and make money at that rate. But this frightful combination to keep up rates by sea rules the whole business, and has destroyed the prospects of the people of the west, and I would ask my Progressive friends to urge upon the government that they should take up this question.
We must go a step further in dealing with transportation than we have gone already. We must go to the point of dealing with transportation by sea, and if we do that and combine our public ownership of water transportation with our public ownership of land transportation, we will begin to get the leadership in the commerce of the world. There is more hope of that in combining those services than in anything else. We cannot do it in a one-sided way; we must take the two together, land and water transportation. We have to solve the question of transportation as it is applied to the sea as well as to the land, and if we do that we will make some headway, and hold out some hope of improving conditions in the Maritime provinces. There is no reason why we Should not, at a very small expense, employ the organization of the Canadian National railways to develop transportation by water, by a line of boats owned by Canada and running to the West Indies, to South America, and across the Atlantic, going into

the business in a small way to start with, in connection with transporting Canadian farm products, including live stock. I would trust Sir Henry Thornton to-morrow with ten million dollars, if he wanted it, to start a fleet of boats in connection with the Canadian National Railways, to run to the West Indies, to South America, and to give a service on the Atlantic ocean, a freight service to begin with, and especially for live stock. I have no doubt that if that experiment were made, we should make good. It would have to be tested by the cold facts. I was glad to hear the Minister of Railways hold out this afternoon some encouragement of an effort in that direction. You have to try it out, and my friends from the Maritime provinces and hon. members from the west are in a position to demand from the government that this be done.
The management of the Canadian National Railways has been so successful that it has carried consternation into the minds of railway owners all over the world. The Canadian people are behind the Canadian National Railways in the matter of train service; they have no doubt now as to the future; they know that there are Canadians who can run a railway successfully. The Canadian Pacific can do it, and so can the people who run the Canadian National Railways. The railways have made good, and1 I suggest to the members from the Maritime provinces and the members from the West that they get together and make it part of their programme right here and now that the National Railways shall be authorized to go into transportation by sea, in a small way to begin with, which will develop the ports and trade of the Maritime provinces, and help the farmers of the West by giving them cheap transportation for their grain, and especially for their cattle. If they do that, we will be in a position to show that Canada has solved the transportation problem in a way that no one else has solved it, by the application of public ownership to a combination of transportation by rail and by sea. That is what the transportation profiteers to-day are afraid of. They want to keep these things in private hands, and they have it in private hands in the matter of sea transportation, which is the greatest monopoly in the world to-day. There is nothing like it; the richest men and the richest combinations in the world to-day are those that control transportation by sea, and the way for Canada to develop and expand her trade is to follow the example we have in the Canadian National Railways and go into the business of transportation by sea on a small scale to begin with. Let us

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build up our trade with the West Indies and South America, and let Canada go into that business herself, and I believe she will make a profit out of it almost from the day she begins the service.
So I make that suggestion to my hon. friends from the East and to my hon. friends from the West. And, as the hon. member for North Toronto (Mr. Church) said, there is no reason why the same thing should not be applied to the Great Lakes, to the inland navigation of Canada. If we succeed in that respect on the Atlantic we can do it on the Pacific, and we can make a great, new departure before the world towards solving the transportation problem by taking the matter up in these broader senses-in the sense of navigation, and in the sense of railway service. In that way we can give an example to the world. And, as a matter of fact, we are already doing that as far as the railroads are concerned. There is nothing which is impressing the world so much to-day-not only the people in the States and in portions of Europe but in the Motherland where it is regarded with especial interest-as the success Canada is now making of her national railways. That being the case let us try to expand that transportation service by applying it to navigation as well as to railways.


William Duff: I am sure we have all been very much interested in the discussion which has so far taken place on this item. I think I may say we are particularly pleased and grateful to the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan) for the very excellent speech which he made this afternoon, and which contained so many facts with regard to our trade with the West Indies and the possible development of that commerce. Perhaps, if we needed a title for this discussion we might select "Yes, we have no bananas" because the talk centred a great deal around that very important fruit. There is no question but that the development of trade with the West Indies is of very great importance for the whole of the Dominion and especially for the Maritime provinces. Personally I am willing to do everything that is possible in order to cultivate and develop that trade. But, Sir, before we discuss the advisability of the government spending millions, and perhaps hundreds of millions of dollars in order to build up a government merchant marine to carry our products to the West Indies and bring the products of those islands back to Canada, we ought to go into the matter a little more carefully than has been done, perhaps, by some of the speakers 199+
hitherto. There is no question but that the transportation problem is a very important one and when the hon. member (Mr. Maclean) says this government should launch upon a policy of building ships to engage in the transportation business it seems to me we should pause and consider the subject very carefully.
Now, what are the facts? The discussion has taken place upon a vote of $340,000 which has been granted for a number of years either to the Royal Mail Packet Company, or some other concern, to operate a line of steamships between Halifax and West Indian ports. It is undoubtedly true that if we can save this money it will be in the interests of Canada but the real question is this: Shall we save money by refusing this subsidy to the Royal Mail Packet Company and by entering upon a policy of building and operating ships by the government? It seems to me that after our experience during the past seven or eight years we should look at the statements which have been issued by the Canadian Government Merchant Marine before we go ahead and build more ships for that service. As a result of the cost and operations of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine we have lost something like $90,000,000 and have not even saved the subsidy of $340,000 which is paid to the Royal Mail Packet Company.


William Findlay Maclean: That money was not spent for the improvement of transportation.


William Duff: What was it spent for then?


Mr. HOCKEN:: For the relief of unemployment largely.


William Findlay Maclean: And to provide
vessels to meet a war emergency. It has not, however, provided a solution for the problem before the House. What I advanced was something different from that.


William Duff: I do not see what my hon.
friend's question has to do with what I am saying. I am not explaining why these ships were built. I am saying that in view of the fact that the country has lost $90,000,000 we should seriously consider the whole question before we talk about building more ships. I am sorry the leader of the opposition introduced into this discussion the matter of the building of these ships. It is an old story and it was not necessary in my opinion to hark back to it. We were in the throes of a great war, and the Minister of Marine and the government of that day thought that by building those ships they would be able to

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carry the products of Canada over to the Mother Country and furnish supplies to the soldiers who were fighting in France. In my opinion that is why the government started the business, but I do say that after the war was over-


Mr. McMASTER:: There were only four
keels laid then.


William Duff: Yes, before any of the ships
were launched, and only four keels were laid, the war was over. I said some four or six years ago, and I say it again to-night that after the war was over, seeing that only four keels had been laid, we should have abandoned the policy and not gone on and spent $80,000,000 of the money of the people of this country in building these ships.
I was not present shortly after eight o'clock, but I am told the leader of the opposition said that no objection was made to the building of these vessels by the then opposition, or by the Liberal members of parliament of that time. My right hon. friend, whose memory is usually pretty good, was mistaken in making that statement. If he will turn to Hansard of May 8. 1919, commencing at page 2,211, he will find that during the discussion in regard to moneys to be voted for the building of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine, not one member alone but several members objected to the building of these ships, and the granting of the contract for the construction of the last thirty-three vessels. In looking at Hansard of that date I find that the first name was that of a very able member of the late parliament, a man who spent a number of years in this House as a representative of Nova Scotia, a gentleman who, much to our regret passed to his reward a few days ago, and when I mention his name you will know it was the former member for Guysborough, the late J. H. Sinclair. If the leader of the opposition will turn to the page of Hansard I am quoting from he will see that Mr. Sinclair strenuously objected to the building of those ships at that time and the spending of this vast sum of money. Mr. Sinclair said:	*
The criticism of my hon. friend the leader of the opposition is quite pertinent-
He was speaking of the ex-member for Cape Breton North and Victoria, now Mr. Justice McKenzie. He said;
The criticism of my hon. friend the leader of the [DOT] opposition is quite pertinent however, when he says that the government were very slow that they allowed three or four years to elapse before they did anything, and then when prices were almost as high as they ever will be and when the war was nearly over they embarked on the shipbuilding programme. When this

report was issued I understand the war was over, but in it I find, as I have said, that there is a proposal to go on with the shipbuilding programme.
Again he says:
But I think the minister has undertaken to build the wrong class of ship, if he expects them to make connections with the National Railway system.
Again:
That company-
Speaking about the Canadian Pacific Railway Company.
-has never embarked on the building of tramp vessels. It has built liners that make regular trips, that connect with its railway system and undertake to route goods to certain places and to deliver them on certain dates. That does not seem to be what my hon. friend is doing. He is building a large fleet of slow, tramp vessels that are not suitable and never will be suitable for that class of work.
I could go on and quote from the speeches of the hon. member for Brome (Mr. McMas-ter) who objected. I could also quote extracts from the speeches of the then hon. member for Red Deer, Mr. Clark, and I need not mention the hon. member for Lunenburg-


Arthur Meighen: I do not think he will quote any criticism of that kind from any one else. He could quote a great many speeches from that side of the House strongly supporting the programme, but he could not quote a single vote against it.


William Duff: It is quite true as my hon. friend says that there was no vote taken at that time, but the fact remains that several members of the Liberal party spoke against the continuation of this shipbuilding programme. They were opposed to it. He is referring to the year 1918, and I think to the present Speaker of the House (Mr. Lemieux), and to the Honourable Mr. Justice McKenzie, who at that time did approve of the pro-gramlme of that year.


Arthur Meighen: And the Minister of
Finance (Mr. Fielding).


William Duff: And perhaps the Minister of Finance.


Arthur Meighen: And in 1919 also.


William Duff: I have looked carefully over the discussion in Hansard, and I could not find any Liberal member who supported the proposition at that time. I understood the leader of the opposition also said that I changed my views on this matter.


Arthur Meighen: I did not say that.


William Duff: I took it down.


Mr MEIGHEN:: I was just thinking the hon. gentleman would have to change his views

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if he supported what is foreshadowed by the Minister of Railways to-day.


William Duff: I will put the leader of the opposition at ease. I do not intend to support any shipbuilding programme which will cost this country money; but I say that every year there are hundreds of thousands of ships which are ready at any time to carry the products of Canada to foreign lands. There never was any necessity for the Canadian government to undertake the operation of ships; it has proved to be a failure, and these ships have not carried one per cent of the total exports or imports from or into Canada. These very ships on which we have lost ninety million dollars are doing more business for foreign countries, and the United States particularly, than they are doing for Canada. That is the trouble. Another feature is that hon. gentlemen opposite, because they built the ships, are now endeavouring to show that we on this side of the House are willing to go on with that shipbuilding programme.


Mr. SPEAKMAN:: Do I understand my hon. friend to say that at the present time there is an overplus of bottoms throughout the world? Because if so I cannot understand why we are called upon to pay double rates on our cattle from here to the Old Country.


William Duff: I have no hesitation in saying that the trade follows the flag, and that ships will go wherever the trade is. Wherever there is business for ships to do, ships will be found to carry all the business that is moving. What did my hon. friend from Cumberland say this afternoon? He spoke of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine coming up from the West Indies with 50 tons of freight, when it could have carried 3,000 tons, and he spoke of the Royal Mail Packet steamships coming up from the West Indies without any cargo. I was on the Hudson river about three weeks ago and saw 2,000 ships tied side by side upon that great majestic stream, and yet my hon. friend asks me if there is sufficient tonnage to d'o the business.


Alfred Speakman: I asked the hon. member, if that were the case, how he explained the fact that rates were at an exorbitant figure at the present time as applied to some lines of industry?


William Duff: That was the condition under the late government, and under this government as well, although perhaps neither the former government nor this government can be blamed for it, because in my opinion the mistake was made when the Canadian Government Merchant Marine ships were built
and a bill was passed in this House incorporating a company called the Canadian Government Merchant Marine Limited. A board of directors was appointed, which board was absolutely irresponsible to the owners of the ships, and they were given complete power to carry on the business of the ships, but the fact remains that the management of these boats, instead of endeavouring, as the hon. member would hope, and as I would hope, to keep down the rates on cattle or anything else, entered into a combine. The freight managers or directors of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine entered into a combine, not once or twice, but seven or eight times, not only to keep the rates up but to increase the rates on different products which were to be handled. My hon. friend must remember that the special committee on Agriculture last year went into that question and found that there was a combine. I proved to my own satisfaction two years before that there was a combine. If my hon. friend will read Hansard he will see that in my speech condemning the Canadian Government Merchant Marine I showed that they entered into an agreement known as the New York pool. I could mention another thing to show the way business was conducted by the Canadian Government Merchant Marine. I think three years ago the manager of the Royal Mail Packet line came to Ottawa to interview the Minister of Trade and Commerce. The vessels of that company, as hon. members know, plied between Halifax, St. John and the West Indies. The manager of the company came to Ottawa, interviewed the Minister of Trade and Commerce and said to him. "We cannot carry on with this subsidy of $340,000. unless you allow us to raise our rates." And what do you think the Minister of Trade and Commerce did? He sent for the manager of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine which line was in competition with ithe Royal Mail Packet between Halifax and St. John and West Indian ports. These two gentlemen, the manager of the Royal Mail Packet and the manager of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine sat at the table and asked the Minister of Trade and Commerce to increase the freight rates fifty per cent, and the Minister of Trade and Commerce did it. That is the reason the rates are so high.


Mr. CALDWELL:: What year was that?


Thomas George McBride: Does the hon. member
think that the Canadian Government Merchant Marine should be run at a loss when these boats are run in competition with other
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boats which have got to help pay taxes in order to carry on the merchant marine?


William Duff: I do not think anything of
the kind. I am trying to prove that it is bad business to run these boats at all; and even if the rates were 50 per cent higher than they are to-day the Canadian Government Merchant Marine ships would not pay. I am trying to prove that. I say in answer to the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Speakman) that if government ships are going to be of any use to the people of the country the rates should be at least as low as the rates of any other boat, or indeed lower. But instead of that, on several occasions, they entered into an agreement with other steamship lines where they could fix the rates between the two countries. If it is good policy to have government-owned ships operate on the line between Halifax and the West Indies, why would it not be good policy to have government ships carry every pound of freight which is hauled over the National Railways in this country both East and West? Would any hon. gentleman suggest that that should be done? Is it not a fact that the Canadian Government Merchant Marine does not handle one per cent of the goods which pass over the Canadian National Railways? If the Canadian National Railways have to depend for the carriage of ninety-nine per cent of its goods by water on outside lines, and the merchant marine has lost $90,000,000, it is about time that the Canadian people woke up to the fact that they had better get clear of it.
It is also a fact that an experiment was made last year with some of those boats to cany cattle from Quebec to the Old Country, and it was found that those boats were not suitable. I am not going to blame the late government when I say that those boats are not suitable to carry cattle or to do the service that the Royal Mail Packet Company is doing to-day. I agree with the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan) that the service the Royal Mail Packet Company is performing is not satisfactory. We should have fifteen-knot boats instead of ten-knot boats in order to compete with the United Fruit Company and other lines, but I say that those boats which we have at the present time are practically useless for the services to which they are devoted. What is the use of having those boats put on the West Indies route or any other route except where they are carrying bulk cargoes only in competition with other steamers? I am not complaining about the kind of boats that were built by the late government. I think everybody will admit that when the late government entered into that

policy and that contract, they never thought how they were going to use the boats. They did not know how they were going to use them. Their idea was to build as many boats as quickly as possible so that they could help during the war. I think that is a fair statement to make, and I have no hesitation in saying that when the late government, or Mr. Ballantyne, who was Minister of Marine and Fisheries at that time, brought down that policy, he had no more idea what he was going to do with the boats than any other member of the government or of the House of Commons. But the fact remains that we have them now and that there are only two things that we can do with them. We have either to go on and lose $9,000,000 every year in interest, depreciation and loss in running expenses, or to sell the boats, as somebody suggested this afternoon, and buy boats which would be suitable for this particular route. There would be no objection to that because we would not be investing any new money. I think that would be good business in view of the fact that we have some sixty of these boats which are practically useless as regards Canadian trade and which are being used to develop the trade of other countries rather than that of Canada. It would be a good policy for this government to sell some of those ships at whatever price they could get for them and, perhaps, to invest a few million dollars in building ships which would be suitable for this British West Indies route.


Mr. SPENCER:: How does the trade of
Canada differ very much from that of any other country?


William Duff: The trade of Canada differs
from that of any other country just the same as shipping differs. For instance, the trade of Canada is not at all in lumber; but the shipping of Canada, that is as regards the merchant marine, is all in one class of boats. Now, does my hon. friend see the difference? The Canadian Pacific Railway have different classes of ocean steamers. They have the regular tramp steamers for bulk cargoes, and the passenger, freight and express service by water. That is why there is a great difference, and consequently the only thing to do, if we are going to make use of the ships which we have in the Canadian Government Merchant Marine is to sell most of them and invest the money perhaps in the route between Halifax, St. John and the West Indies or some other route in order to develop trade. But I do not think it would be good business for this or any other government to spend more money in building ships for this or any other

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route. There is no question that if trade should be developed by the agencies which the hon. member for Cumberland suggested, by appointing trade agents and going after the business, whenever the business is there to be handled, boats will be found to carry the products of Canada to the West Indies and to bring back to Canada the products of those islands.


Donald Ferdinand Kellner: What is the matter with
those ships?


William Duff: As the leader of the opposition (Mr. Meighen) said, there is nothing wrong, nothing seriously wrong with their construction. Some years ago we were told that we could not build ships in Canada, but these ships on the whole are a credit to Canada as regards their construction. The only trouble with them is that in the first place they are slow, in the second place they are all of the tramp variety, and in the third place they are not suitable for the West Indies trade or any other trade than bulk cargo. That is the only trouble with them and I think that is sufficient. It is useless for us to contend that we can get cargoes on those ships from the West Indies or anywhere else when they can travel at only between eight and ten knots an hour and when other boats from New York ports and elsewhere can travel at from eighteen to twenty knots an hour.


Mr. FORKE:: Does the cost of sailing
not increase very much with the rapidity of travelling? Can a slow sailing vessel carry cargo much more cheaply than a fast sailing vessel?


William Duff: I do not think there is any
difference, because a Canadian Government Merchant Marine vessel will take ten or twelve days to go from Halifax to Bermuda while a fast ship will make the trip in six days, and whilst this would require more coal consumption and the capital expenditure would be a little more, that would be saved in wages, provisions and other expenses which the other boat would have to bear. Moreover, if the faster boat made the trip in half the time, she would make two trips to the other's one.
We have the merchant marine on our hands and it constitutes a white elephant. We might as well come to the conclusion that these vessels are not suitable, and as the hon. member for Cumberland said this afternoon, they have lost $265,000 each year for the last three years on operation on the West India route alone. No private company would run a business in that way. Why should the people of this country
10 p.m. have to do that just because you or I or somebody else has a quintal of fish or a barrel of flour to ship from his fish stage or his farm to some foreign country? The people of Canada should have some say in the matter and not an individual who may have something to ship, and it is suicidal for this government to go on any longer without calling a halt in the operation of most of these ships. They should sell them at once and, if necessary, get the Royal Mail Packet Company or some other company to perform this service on the West Indies route, either with or without a subsidy.


Mr. WARNER:: Does the hon. member
know of any place or any kind of business for which these ships are suitable?


William Duff: Yes, there are many things
they can do. For instance, I understand they are used on the Pacific coast for carrying lumber. I would say they would be splendid ships for that. That is what is known as a bulk cargo. They would also be suitable for carrying coal. I understand that some of them were used on the Great Lakes for carrying wheat, but they lost money in that work. A ship, in order to carry wheat, must be specially constructed and fitted, but in order to get something for these boats to do, the management put them on the Great Lakes in the wheat-carrying business. This was a great mistake to my mind. There is no reason why those ships cannot be used for carrying bulk cargoes, and it is strange to me that in carrying bulk cargoes, they should lose money when private companies, owning ships of the same class, can make a small amount of money on the capital invested.
The hon. member for South York (Mr. Maclean) this afternoon said that there was a monopoly in shipping. I am afraid he has not looked into this question very thoroughly Of course there are some steamship companies which make rates; but on the Atlantic ocean where ships are going back and forth all the time from every country in "the world, there is no monopoly. Freight rates are governed entirely by the law of supply and demand except in special cases, as I said before, where vessels are given a subsidy and the Trade and Commerce department have to fix the rates with the result, as in the case of a Canadian Government Merchant Marine and the Royal Mail Packet Company, they came back to the government and the government gave them an increase of 50 per cent
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Mr. WARD:: What would you gay as to
the North Atlantic Conference not controlling rates in any way?


William Duff: They tried to control rates.


William Findlay Maclean: They do control them.


William Duff: No.


William Findlay Maclean: I will read the
evidence.


William Duff: You can do so after I am
through. They did try to control rates, and they succeeded for a certain time; but there are hundreds of ships outside the Atlantic Combine-Swedish, Norwegian and French, besides British tramp steamers and others.


William John Ward: Would you say that the North Atlantic Conference or Combine does not to-day control cattle rates from Montreal to British ports?


William Duff: I was under the impression
that it was the English steamship companies operating out of Montreal which controlled the cattle rates from Montreal or Quebec to the Old Country.


William John Ward: That certainly is not in
keeping with the views of the people of western Canada. They feel that at the present time the cattle rates are atrocious.


William Duff: It is quite true that the steamship agents in Montreal got together and made a rate for the carriage of cattle, but I am not a judge as to what they should charge for that traffic. It has been proved conclusively, however, that the Canadian Government Merchant Marine carried cattle at $20 a head and lost money; and all I am interested in is the country's investment in those ships.


William John Ward: A minute or two ago you
said that other companies using the same type of boat as we have in our government merchant marine were making a small profit. If that is so, there must be something wrong if our boats cannot make a profit on similar traffic.


William Duff: My hon. friend should know
that boats of the type of the government merchant marine do not carry cattle, not being fitted up for the business. The boats which engage in this traffic from Montreal or Quebec are specially equipped and carry cattle in conjunction with other cargo. I did say that the Canadian Government Merchant Marine did not make any money

on the cattle business, and that is an established fact which I do not need to argue. I think it is about time that the government and the people of this country told the directors to stop operating the Canadian Government Merchant Marine.
I think we should do everything in our power to develop our trade with the West Indies, and . unless we can make a better contract either with the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company or some steamship company I feel that it is better for us to pay this subsidy than to put our own ships on the route and lose money. There is no question that our trade with the West Indies should be developed, and we in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, who are at some disadvantage in trading with the central part of Canada, have every desire to see the West Indian trade developed so that our ocean ports at St. John and Halifax will get that much more business. I do not think that taking off the ships of the government mercantile marine would tend to restrict the development of that trade, because I feel that these boats are not necessary for our National Railways at all, as the management can get all the boats necessary to handle our overseas business, and therefore I say that under the circumstances we would be able to pay the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company or some other steamship company a smaller subsidy if they had the route to themselves so that they could put on suitable boats to handle the business.


Mr. SPENCE:: 
Thomas Wakem Caldwell: We have a heated warehouse at St. John now.


David Spence: Can a boat pull in there
and unload?


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Yes, and afterwards the commodities can be loaded into freight cars.


David Spence: I am glad to hear it. The absence of these facilities has caused the diversion of this traffic to New York; consequently we are developing that port to the detriment of St. John and Halifax and losing the trade. I am glad to have been the first one in this House to advocate something along this line, and I am pleased to know that influential members on the government benches now see eye to eye with me; but it takes some people a long time to do so-they are just five or ten years behind the times. Last year when I discussed this matter in the House I got very little sympathy even from my own friends; they thought I was ahead of the times. But reading between the lines of what the Minister of Railways has said I know that something is going to be done and that some developments will take place in the steamship line. I am sorry the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr Duff) is not in perfect
accord with his colleagues in this matter. While the vessels of the merchant marine may not be all that is desired-may not be large enough or speedy enough-at the same time something might be done in the way of trading off two for one to bring about a development of our trade not only between Canada and the West Indies but between Canada and Mediterranean ports and other ports as well.
The hon. member for Cumberland talked about putting a duty on bananas. I talked about that myself; I advocated it, although it could do no good to me personally. I advocated it on two grounds: first, for the purpose of getting revenue. I thought there was too much direct taxation. Duties could be put on other things besides bananas without doing any harm to the country and the man in lousiness would not have to pay so much direct taxation. My second reason was in order that a preference might be given to the British West Indies. With regard to the United Fruit Company, to which reference has been made, I want to say that they are the strongest aggregation I know of in this business. Their capital must amount from seventy to a hundred million dollars. They control the steamboats; they control the plantations, and I understand that rather than ship a carload of bananas to be sold in this country at a reasonable price they will let them rot. In the early days bananas could be sold in the Canadian market at from 10 to 20 cents a dozen, but to-day you have to buy bananas in carload lots by the pound, and the average price of bananas in the Toronto market in carload lots is 7 cents a pound. So that to-day these people control the boats and the plantations; they control the bananas and they control the price, and as a result of their operations we are compelled to pay an enormous price for bananas. In other words, it is a real monopoly. That is something I hope the minister will give attention to.


Thomas Langton Church: What about the Combines Act?


David Spence: Well, hon. members discuss the Combines Act; they condemn it, and so on, but while they do so they would like to be in a combine themselves. I would prefer to get into a combine at almost any time rather than go bankrupt. However, I will leave that to those who know more about it.
So far as lake services are concerned, there may be exorbitant rates charged. There is no doubt that during the last couple of years the rates on the lines of the Niagara Navigation Company have been very high. However,

3146	^	COMMONS
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what we have to do is to look after our own business, develop the industries of the country and develop trade between Canadian and British and foreign ports. England built up her trade by developing her merchant marine. The United States did the same thing and I contend that Canada must do the same thing. We cannot depend on private companies to do our business, because these companies are very jealous of governments or municipalities who endeavour to put on a steamboat service and every time they can get you in a corner in the matter of transportation-either a steamboat company or a railroad company- they will do it. So that we are up against some of the toughest problems that can be faced in dealing with companies. I do not know that it is appropriate at this juncture to talk about freight charges but it is a thing that undoubtedly is keeping this country back. Something must be done, and I am sure that when the government sees fit to force the rates down the railway companies will find a way of reducing their overhead charges accordingly.


Thomas George McBride: I wish to make one or two remarks in regard to some statements of the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff) concerning the merchant marine. I have never at any time stated that the larger boats in the merchant marine were a failure. I think they are good boats and should be run at a profit. The hon. member for Lunenburg said that their speed was 8 or 9 knots; the fact is their speed is 11J to 121 knots, and that is fast enough for any freight boat. The boats that are anywhere from 8,000 to 10,000 tons should be a good paying proposition for this government. As to the smaller boats, while I do not find fault with their construction, I do not think they can ever be a paying proposition. It seems to be the general habit of hon. members to criticise freight rates and then tell us about combines. If boats operated by private companies were run at a loss, hon. members would say that the owners of them were a lot of confounded fools and did not know how to carry on their business. The man who runs a steamboat ought to get a fair and reasonable price for what he carries, and should be able to make his running expenses and interest on his investment. Proof that a great many are not doing that, when it comes down to the fine point, is found in the merchant marine returns. As for railway charges. I am opposed to reducing them: I say, increase them and get our railways on a paying basis. Why should the taxpayers in a section of country that has no railway 
facilities be paying a tax so that other sections may get cheap rates? I say that the freight rates all over Canada should be equalized; then make the charges such as to enable our national railways to get on a paying basis.


Mr. MacLAREN:: I would not want this discussion to pass by without recording my attitude in regard to the proposal that has been made by the Minister of Railways (Mr. Graham) this afternoon, especially bearing on the question of West Indian trade as set forward by the member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan). The business with the West Indies is there, waiting for transportation, waiting for the necessary arrangement between the West Indies and Canada. I do not. know that the question of the relative merit of the vessels of the present mercantile marine has any direct bearing on the question of the development of the West Indian trade with Canada. I do not suppose anyone would suggest that these vessels are especially suitable for semi-tropical trade. I think it is obvious they are not. What I understand was in the mind of the Minister of Railways was the consideration of the propriety and advisability of providing a fleet of ships such as are suitable for semitropical trade, and for carrying products of such a character as are produced in the West Indies. That is quite a different matter from the merchant marine as it is now constituted.
I do not suppose anyone would argue that we should use the merchant marine boats for this trade, because we all admit they are not ideal for that trade. In view of these three points then, Mr. Chairman-the trade being ready for us to encourage and develop, secondly, consideration of the building of ships suitable for carrying not only freight but passengers in semi-tropical areas, and thirdly, the nature of the business with the West Indies and the enormously powerful American organizations that are carrying on the trade there at the present time, I do think there is a distinct advantage in the government carrying on a business of this character. It requires a great backing, it requires wealth, it requires influence to successfully compete with the firms now operating there, and particularly with one well-known firm in the United States that has practically a monopoly of the fruit business of the West Indies.
Let me say, finally, that I hope this matter will be prosecuted with energy, that undue delay will be avoided. It certainly will appeal to the people of this country that here would

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be an advance in the development of our trade, and of our ports and transportation system.


Mr. MacLEAN (Prince):: As our little
province of Prince Edward Island is one of the ports of call of the merchant marine,
I wish to make just a few remarks. It might be supposed that the merchant marine leaving Montreal and making different ports of call both in Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island would give each province a fairly good service. IVe have a splendid harbour at the town of Summerside, where we have been endeavouring to have those ships call, but the management of the merchant marine takes the ground that it would not be good business for the ship to call there on account of competing with the Canadian National Railways. I endeavoured to point out to the management that in the event of the ship not calling there, neither the Canadian National Railways nor the merchant marine would get the business, but the boat of some other company would be put on, and that is just what happened last year. We have endeavoured to impress upon the management of the merchant marine the importance of making Summerside a port of call, but up to now we have not met with success. Another feature has just been brought to my attention this moment, in a letter that came by to-night's mail from the Tourists' Association of Prince Edward Island. It is written by the secretary, dated Charlottetown, June 10, and reads as follows:
I am receiving quite a few inquiries with reference to boat trips from Montreal to Charfottetown, and upon inquiry I find that the C.G.M.M. s.s. "Sapper" is the only boat carrying on passenger service between these two ports this season, and that owing to the fact that there is no stewardess on this boat, it is impossible for ladies to travel in this way, except when accompanied by their husbands.
It seems rather too bad with only one boat making the trip, we should be deprived of. the privilege of having ladies travel on it, and if there is any way whereby you could induce the merchant marine to give us a stewardess on this service for even two months, it would help us considerably.
If these boats are going to cater to passenger traffic, I think it is only right that proper accommodation should be provided. I am well aware that these boats are not capable of carrying a large number of passengers, but if they are in the passenger business at all every effort should be made to provide the necessary accommodation.
I wish to congratulate the hon. member for Cumberland, in common with the rest of the members of the House, for the splendid address that he gave us this afternoon. I think it would be in the interest of Canadian trade,
and would help to stimulate trade with the West Indian countries if that speech was published in pamphlet form and largely distributed, not only to the West Indian trade, but also to our own Canadian merchants. The two countries are interdependent to a considerable degrefe in the matter of their products, and we would welcome a development of trade between the two countries. I again congratulate the hon. member on his very able presentation of the case.


Arthur Meighen: I do not wish to take up any time at all, except to put on record the first phase, I think I might call it, of the attitude of hon. gentlemen opposite to the mercantile marine. I do not complain of the general fairness at all of the speech this afternoon of the hon. member for Lunenburg. It does not, however, present anything like a just reflection either of what took place in 1918 or in 1919, or indeed in 1920, as to the general disposition of the House towards the construction.
It will be recalled that strong pressure was brought to bear upon the government from all sides of the House for its construction, and this pressure continued right up until 1920. The resistance came first in 1921, but the resistance never took the form that it has taken now; the criticism never took that colour at all. Indeed, hon. members to my left particularly will remember just this last summer when the present Minister of Justice, then Minister of Marine and Fisheries, toured the west, he complained bitterly of the mercantile marine, and the complaint was this, that it was a war construction programme, and nothing else, and that immediately the war was over all contracts should have been cancelled. Am I mis-stating his position? If I am challenged, I will get his speech, for I have it, frequently made. Contracts should have been cancelled, he complained, when the war was over. This was the second phase of attack. Now the phase is: Oh, but you didn't build the right kind of ships; you only built bulk cargo ships. I do not pretend to be an expert upon this, but I venture to say the defence against this attack is just as effective as against any other, and I know it can be produced. I share very much the disposition apparently of hon. members to my left. A desperate struggle is being made to find something wrong with these ships, to show that they are too fast or too slow, too big or too little. The ships are all right.
I rose only to put on record the unanimous attitude of the Liberal party, in its first phase towards the mercantile marine. I read the resolution passed at the convention, and I
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James Shaver Woodsworth: I wish to state
that many of us were greatly gratified this afternoon at the position taken by the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan), and the Minister of Railways (Mr. Graham). During the past two or three years I have had a great number of communications from seamen in the port of Montreal, or down in Nova Scotia, relative to the necessity of encouraging the Canadian Government Merchant Marine, and in other ways promoting the welfare of our own Canadian ships manned by our own sailors; and the suggestion made by the Minister of Railways that this was likely to be a policy of the government will I am sure be received with very great rejoicing by a large number of the workers in the eastern part of this country. I think perhaps it is too well known to need anything more than the statement, that organized labour in Canada stood out firmly for public ownership of public utilities. In that we include all railway and steamship lines, and we think this is a move in the right direction. May I say that side by side with public ownership we would also like to see a little bit more of the democratic control that ought to go with it.

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As I suggested the other day in. dealing with the Railway Board, it seems to me that the government ought to try to put into practice what it has conceded in theory-that labour ought to have representation on these big public utility or government boards; that those who are actively engaged in the work- in this case the men actually engaged on the ships'-should have some voice in the management of the enterprises. I think that policy would undoubtedly result in a very great deal more of efficiency, and, if anything, greater loyalty than has been shown in the past; although I may say with regard to a number of these ships I have talked with some of the officers and men in the vessels and they are exceedingly loyal to the idea of publicly owned bodies.
There is just one other thing I should like to mention, which came up in connection with the question asked by the hon. member for Cumberland having to do with a further extension of the idea of exchange between different sections of the country. The member for Cumberland opened out a wide field, and I am quite sure that we all agree with his criticism that a great deal is lost in the transmission of commodities from one section of the country to the other. The consumer does not get the advantage that he ought to have. There are a great many commission men, and intermediaries of various kinds, that stand in the way. If we are to have our government railroads, our government steamship lines, and our government terminals it would seem a very small extension to see to it that some sort of exchange system is arranged by which a good many of the middle men that now piey on the producers could be eliminated. A few years ago some of us visited a big storage plant in the harbour of Montreal. There we saw how well equipped they were for cutting out a great many of the middleman's profits, and bringing the producer a little bit closer to the consumer. If these products of the tropics can be brought by our own ships, there is no particular reason why there could not be an almost direct exchange with the people in the West and our supplying the flour that is needed in the East. The government of New Zealand have more or less accomplished this with regard to certain kinds of dairy produce. The farmers of our own West are beginning to work in the direction of shipments through a wheat pool; and it would seem as if we would be in a position before very long to carry out this idea on an even greater scale. I would even look forward to the time when we would have not
merely our own ships plying between here and the West Indies, but also between here and the Motherland. At the same time we might very easily find that it was possible for us to carry our Canadian wheat in our own bottoms directly to the world's markets, and probably effect a direct exhange for some of the commodities we need in this country. Inevitably we are being driven into the adoption of public ownership. Whether we like it or not the world is tending in that direction. The only point we ought to safeguard is the effective control of the boards and of the operations of these corporations which are set up. I welcome the discussion this afternoon as being one of the most illuminating we have had on the floor of this House for many a long day.


Mr. BLACK (Halifax):: Before this discussion is concluded, I crave the attention of the House for a very few moments, in order that I may put my ideas before it in regard to this question. I do not think any hon. member-I certainly would not,-would put anything in the way of a treaty agreement or any arrangement with any country or with any islands that would be for the benefit of Canada. If we can exchange the goods of our country on fair and reasonable terms, with another country, I think it is our duty so to do, A treaty whereby the products of the West Indies can be admitted on favourable terms to this country, and whereby the products of this country can be admitted on fair terms into the West Indian Islands and to the mainland of South America, would be of very great advantage to both countries. So far as Canada is concerned, I think it would be not only an advantage to the whole Dominion, but it would be especially advantageous to the Maritime provinces.
We are indebted to my hon. friend from Cumberland (Mr. Logan) for the valuable statistics he has given us this afternoon in connection with the trade relations or the volume of trade done with the West Indies and the possibility of an increase of trade between those islands and Canada. Of course, to carry out what is evidently in the mind of the hon. gentleman would mean a very large and comprehensive scheme and one which would be very expensive if undertaken as a whole. To my mind it would require, not one or two lines of steamers but quite a number of lines. For instance, I do not think it is a practicable proposition to undertake to trade with Cuba, if we couple it with any other island. If results are to be had with the trade or with the line of steamers running to Cuba, I maintain that these steamers must
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go to that island and to that island alone. The same remark would apply to Porto Rico, to Haiti and to San Domingo. Those islands would probably require two separate lines of steamers. Then again, in order to get the trade of those islands, what arrangement can be made with our neighbours to the South of us for favourable trade agreements? I would say that inasmuch as the United States controls the trade policy of those islands to a.very large extent, Canada could not obtain any privileges there; and in that same connection I assume that when my hon. friend quoted the volume of trade between the United States and the West Indies he included the trade of Cuba and all the other islands which I have mentioned, and which are almost wholly American. We know that Cuba is a very large sugar producing country. We know that for some years past sugar has been at the top notch almost. The price has been very high indeed, and with the many millions of tons produced in that island, and with the high price of sugar per ton, the volume of trade in dollars and cents is enormous. The same thing applies to San Domingo. I do not think it applies to the same extent to Haiti or Porto Rico. In my view Canada should welcome any treaty arrangement that would assist us in capturing the trade of those islands.
So far as the steamships which have been operating are concerned, a subsidy, as hon. gentlemen know, has been paid to the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company for their services to what is called the Windward islands and Demerara. The government have also, during the last few years, been operating a service to those islands in opposition to their own subsidized service. The result is that the oompany with whom the government has a contract has not been operating a profitable service. The Minister of Trade and Commerce knows confidentially the result of the operation of that company; and if he will call to mind those results undoubtedly he will conclude that there would be no justification whatever for the government building steamers and placing them on that route. I would remind the minister of the fact that the boats operating in the present service are of very small value. Consequently the overhead- that is the insurance, depreciation and other expenses-are very small indeed as compared with the charges on four new steamers, which would be necessary to cover the route, costing probably $5,000,000. This overhead would result in a heavy loss I believe from year to year. It seems to me that the proper thing for the government to do, when they complete their treaty arrangements with our friends

to the south, is to couple up with some steamship company and pay the subsidy that is necessary to obtain the services which they will have to give under the terms of the treaty with the West Indies. To my mind that is the cheapest possible way of operating the services.
Then comes the question how far governments should interfere with vested interests. There are thousands of steamship companies operating throughout the world. I think I can safely say that scarcely one company to-day is making both ends meet, and yet some hon. gentlemen will say, without realizing what the result is going to be: Let the government build and operate those ships in competition with vested rights and private steamship companies. I think the experience we have had with the government merchant marine should be sufficient to impress the government with the fact that they cannot operate steamers in competition with private companies. I think too that the government should consider, with the money which *they have required to pay t'he losses of millions up to the present time, whether they are justified in running tonnage at a loss in opposition to private interests.
The other day I obtained the fifth annual report of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine Limited, and in running over it, I was wondering what the result in operations had been. As far as I can make out the loss has run into over $100,000,000. The statement shows, as of the 31st December, 1923, a deficit of $27,641,581. In this statement amongst the assets I find " accounts receivable, less reserve for doubtful accounts." That seems to me a rather strange entry for a steamship company which is carrying cargo and which is earning freight money, which freight money is supposed, so far as my business knowledge goes, to be payable on or before delivery of the goods. Therefore, I cannot understand why there should be accounts receivable amounting to $1,532,411. That may be a good asset or it may be a figure, a portion of which will never be realized. Then, we have as another asset, due by underwriters, claims estimated and under adjustment, $885,479. That is am asset in the account, before the deficit is struck of over $27,000,000. I will venture to say that that amount of $885,479 will show a very large shrinkage when the final settlement comes. Then there is deficiency on the other side of the account on insurance recovered. On the Canadian Exporter, one of the ships, there was a deficiency in what was estimated as the cost of the repairs. I do not know what the accident was, but on

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that account there was a deficiency of $23,191. Is it not reasonable to suppose that there would be a large deficiency on the $885,479? Following up this deficit of over $27,000,000, I obtained from the Department of Railways and Canals the present cost of the fleet. There are some sixty odd vessels with a tonnage of over 362,844 tons. The capital cost on 31st December, 1923, was $74,860,386.48. Add to that the loss in the operation of those boats for the last three or four years and you have a total of $102,501.968.05. The value of tonnage at the present time owned by the government is $9,724,219, leaving a shortage, if the fleet were sold to-day, of $92,777,749. That amount of $92,777,749 is based on the price of four of the ships which were sold 11 p.m. aggregating 15,508 tons. As regards the money received for them, I am perfectly sure that the credits in the figures given in the report do not provide for commissions on the sale of those boats, and the average price received for those boats works out at $26.80 a ton. I congratulate the department on obtaining such a price. It is a very outside price, and I sometimes wonder how they were able to obtain that price for those ships. But taking the 362,844 tons odd at the average price for which four of the ships have been sold, I arrive at $9,724,219 as itheir present value, leaving $92,777,749 of a shortage. Since those ships were sold at this price of $26.80 a ton, the price of ships has not increased. Not only has the price of tonnage declined but the ships are that much older, and therefore are not of so much value as when these sales were made. But even so, I venture the statement that were these boats to be sold and the account to be closed to-day, the loss to the people of Canada would be less in the long run than their continued operation. For it must be borne in mind that the country was told that these boats were to be put on new routes for developing trade, and had that been done perhaps we would have had nothing whatever to say about it, but instead they have been running the world over; in other words, they are tramp steamers. Some of my friends to my left seem to think that a steamer is simply a steamer; apparently they do not understand the difference between a tramp steamer and a steamer engaged on a regular route. These boats of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine are what are called tramps, and I undertake to say that there has been scarcely a voyage that has not resulted in loss. A government can do that; they can invest their money in railways, or steamers, or anything else, and if they
make a loss nobody is going to fail; but it is not a business proposition, it is not a proposition that any steamship-owning firm will undertake. What is the position of steamship owners in Great Britain and elsewhere at the present time? Rather than operate their tonnage at a loss, such as the government has been doing, they lay their ships up and so minimize their loss as far as possible. I should like to ask some of my friends to my left who have spoken to-night in favour of operating our present boats and building new boats to be placed in competition with private enterprise, what they would say if an agitation were started to induce the government to buy large areas of land in the West, engage in grain-growing at a loss, and sell the product at a lower price than the market value? What would our western friends say to such a proposition? Justly oppose it, of course, and bitterly. Then, why should these same people be willing, in fact insistent, that the government should spend the people's money by going into competition with privately owned steamships and vested rights? To my mind the principle is absolutely 'wrong.
Although it is expensive, in my opinion the cheapest course in the long run will be to lay these boats up and sell them as fast as possible, thus closing up the account and taking the loss. I have no criticism to make of the building of these ships. They were built at the urgent request, I believe, of the British government at a time when British shipping was being destroyed at the rate of tens of thousands of tons per week and it was feared throughout the Empire that not only our soldiers but the people of Great Britain would starve unless new tonnage was provided; therefore the construction of these ships was justified. But I cannot bring myself to believe that any government is justified in continuing to operate any such system of transportation as the Canadian Government Merchant Marine. These boats, as I said before, have not been opening up new routes for Canadian trade, they have been tramping, going down to South America and entering into competition with the regular liners there, carrying goods to Europe and thence to the United States, cutting rates and giving the benefit to foreigners, while we are paying the loss. Such kind of business should not be carried on by any government.


Mr. MILNE:: Does the Canadian Government Merchant Marine carry freight at a lower rate than other ocean boats?


William Anderson Black: They have, sir;
they have been carrying freight to United States ports from European ports, and from
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South American ports to European ports, below current rates, and at a loss-a heavy loss, $9,000,000 in one year. The Steamship companies that were running their boats on those routes were not getting remunerative rates and their yearly balances left their shareholders without any dividends.


Robert Milne: Is it not a fact that the
Canadian Government Merchant Marine sits in at the rate conferences and abides by the rulings there made?


William Anderson Black: I am not in the confidence of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine as to what they do in that respect, but even if they ever did it only made them a little better off than they would otherwise have been and helped private interests to that extent.


Robert Milne: But does this not show that they carried freight at the same rates as other vessels?


William Anderson Black: I think they are carrying at about the same rates as other vessels now. They go in the market, and it may be that in some cases they cut a little to secure a cargo. Now, if the government enter into the owning and operating of steamers on the West Indian route or on any other route-I mean large fast steamers-I am perfectly satisfied the result will be disastrous; there will be a deficit year by year without any very great corresponding benefit. It would be far cheaper to give a subsidy to some first class English steamship company than for the government to continue to operate their own boats at a loss.


Mr. FINN:: Mr. Chairman, I congratulate
the hon. member for Cumberland on the able manner in which he dealt with the growth of trade relations with the British West Indies and other islands of the Caribbean. There was food for thought in almost every sentence, and the facts and figures that he placed on Hansard will prove both interesting and instructive to the people of this country. I have not the least doubt that the attitude of some of the people of this country toward the operation of a steamship service between Canada and the West Indies in connection with the Canadian National Railway system will at least be greatly changed. I am not at this late hour going to enter upon any detailed argument or any elaboration of facts in connection with the matters that were so well put before the committee by the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Ixigan) but those facts are sufficient to prove conclusively that there are great possibilities of growth 
of trade between Canada and the West Indies. When Sir Charles Tupper was in England endeavouring to counteract a movement on the part of the Hon. Joseph Howe to bring about a repeal of the union, he said to John Bright that if the union were displaced the greater part of eastern Canada would go into the United States. John Bright replied:
I cannot help thinking that it would be a good thing to see one government from the equator to the north pole.
Now, Sir, that day has passed. Canada is a nation extending from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and the idea of one government from the equator to the north pole can be carried out by including the West Indies in a free trade relation with Canada in order that we may be able to import into this country, as the hon. member for Cumberland said this afternoon, these tropical products which alone we lack to make us an independent nation in the sense of our having everything which is necessary for the life and comfort and needs of our people. That being the case, why should the government not address itself to the question of bringing about better trade relations with the West Indies and to that end establish a steamship service operated by the Canadian National Railway system that would be efficient in point of speed, passenger accommodation, cold storage and general freight capacity, a service that would cause trade to flow through Canadian channels rather than be sent through the United States ports by the steamers of the United Fruit Company?
I do not take the pessimistic view of the hon. member for King's, P.E.I. (Mr. Hughes) when he says that the Maritime provinces can never succeed industrially. The opening of the Panama canal has given us a great opportunity of carrying on water-borne traffic with the great province of British Columbia and, by rail, with Saskatchewan and Alberta. We have all the natural resources; we have the coal, we have the iron, we have the steel, and we have in Nova Scotia undeveloped water powers sufficient to enable us, with cheap transportation through the Panama canal, to compete with central Canada for the industrial business of British Columbia and some portions of Saskatchewan and Alberta. If that is true, then the pessimism of the hon. member for King's, P.E.I. in reference to the industrial future of the Maritime provinces is not quite to the point.
It seems to me that a red herring was drawn across the trail by hon. members during the discussion this afternoon and this evening by holding up the bugbear of the

Canadian merchant marine. The Canadian merchant marine was constructed during the war period and the years immediately succeeding the war. They were built with no objective as to the trade they were to enter; they were built for the purpose of carrying in the best possible way whatever was to be taken across the ocean, and they had to be built in the quickest possible time. If direct steamship connection with the West Indies in connection with the Canadian National Railway system is not to be had because of the failure of the Canadian merchant marine, then I submit we had better scrap it. We had better put that history behind us so that the future of Canada in its trade with the West
Indies or with any other part of the Empire shall not be hampered or interfered with through the failure of the merchant marine to pay its way.
Let us look for a moment at the figures. The minister is asking for an appropriation of $340,000 for the steamship service between Halifax and St. John and the West Indies operated by the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company. The hon. junior member for Halifax (Mr. Black) knows these ships and how they are operated; it is his company in the city of Halifax that are the operators of them to a certain extent. He knows that one of these ships was lost off Bermuda some months ago and that the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company put in the service an inferior boat, a boat that does not carry passengers and does not conform to the requirements. The company are operating better ships on other lines, whereas the service given between Canada and the West Indies
does not come up to what the contract calls for. The hon. member has rathei damned with faint praise the suggestion ol the hon. member for Cumberland and the statement of the Minister of Railways (Mr. Graham). He has held up the Canadian merchant marine as a nightmare to the Canadian people. We have to-day, Sir, 23,,000 miles of railway operated by Sir Henry Thornton and his board, of directors. That railway system has cost this country $1,386,000,000. We are told that these railways are the great feeders, the great conductors, the great centralizers of export and import trade,yet it is said that we should not have connected with these railways up-to-dlate steamship services in order that they may carry the traffic originating in foreign countries as well as in our own.
I think the minute the government decide to have the Canadian National Railways operate a steamship line to the West Indies they should get away from the name "Canadian Government Merchant Marine." Let
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that be something that is to be forgotten, and let the service be called the Canadian National Ocean Steamship Company, Limited. Let the ships be up to date, modern in every particular, capable of meeting the needs of the merchants of the West Indies and of Canada in that trade. If we take the subsidy of $340,000 and the deficit of last year on the Canadian Government Merchant Marine of $265,000, we get a total of $605,000. That is what this country is paying every year for its West India service. In ten years that is $6,050,000. Take the West Indian agreement, whereby the British West India islands agree when a new weekly service is inaugurated by Canada to pay $135,000 as their proportion of the subsidy. That means $740,000 a year, or $7,400,000 in ten years. I have it on good authority that four ships of modern type, of 12 knots, with passenger, freight and cold storage accommodation. can be built for $1,000,000 apiece; that is $4,000,000, and you have $7,400,000, which means that they will much more than pay for themselves in ten years. If this is a business proposition, then why should we have obsolete boats, to use the words of the junior member for Halifax? He said these boats of the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company could be operated much miore cheaply than boats to be built by the government, and the reasons he gave were that they were of small value, which means poor boats, that the insurance rate was low, and the depreciation not very great. He estimated four new ships would cost $5,000,000. Taking his figures, and giving him the benefit of the doubt, say these four ships of the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company are worth $3,000,000, then this government and this country are paying the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company on their investment nearly 12 per cent; 12 per cent would be $360,000, and we are giving them $340,000.
I say that these facts give food for thought. It is a matter that should be approached carefully, wisely and cautiously. I think, as was foreshadowed by the Minister of Railways this afternoon, that during the vacation the Railway department, together with the Trade and Commerce department and the business men of the Maritime provinces and other parts of Canada and of the West Indies, should get together in order to see how the trade relation could be benefited and strengthened, and how a better steamship service could be obtained.. If it can be obtained in the way that was outlined by my hon. friend from Cumberland this afternoon, and which was intimated by the Minister

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of Railways as the probable policy of the government, I think it would meet with the hearty approval not only of hon. gentlemen in this House, but of the country generally. We in the Maritime provinces are practically dying of ennui, and if we cannot build up our export and our import trade, if we cannot send the products of the Maritime provinces to the West Indies and bring back to Canada their tropical fruits and other products, then our last hope is gone. I remember as a boy the sailing fleets that used to go out of my home port, Halifax. There was the hum of industry and the din of traffic at that port then, and I tell you that to-day if it was not for the Canadian National Railway system, and the wise policy of Sir Henry Thornton, Halifax, would not be on the map as a port at all.
Speaking about the Canadian National and the operation of steamships, Sir Henry Thornton entered into an agreement with the Cunard and the White Star Steamship Companies this last winter, as a result of which he brought more tonnage and shipping to the extent of one million tons, to the port of Halifax in five months than came in during *the previous year, and instead of bringing eleven thousand people to the port of Halifax in those five months, to be taken over the Canadian National, he brought twenty-eight thousand, or over 112i per cent more. He sent his agents abroad, he had his steamship connections, and he got the business for his own railway lines. Now if he can do that with steamship companies that are independent of this government, if he has the foresight and the wisdom to work out a solution in conjunction with steamship companies not a part of his system, what could he not do if he was given reasonable latitude in developing an ocean steamship policy with modern up-to-date boats, to be operated in conjunction with the Canadian National Railway system. Who objects to that? Is there any shareholder of the Canadian Pacific who objects to that company operating their own steamship services? Look at their fleets of magnificent steamers, operating across practically every ocean in the wide world.
But my hon. friend the junior member for Halifax says:	Oh, that is private ownership,
and the other is government ownership. My hon. friend knows as well as I do that the Canadian National Railway system is operated by a private company, of which Sir Henry Thornton is the president, free from government control, free from parliamentary control outside of the estimates that are necessary to

give him the money wherewith to carry on. If that is so, we should not as hon. members of this House allow our judgment to be warped because of private interests. We should stand for the public interest, as the public interest requires public men to do.
I can see the Halifax Herald. Of a few weeks ago, with blazing headlines, "Mr. Black Returning to Ottawa to Look After The Interests Of The Port Of Halifax." I hope, Mr. Chairman, that they will read Hansard to-morrow and see the faint praise that he gave the hon. member for Cumberland who is trying to build up a trade for the Maritime ports and help the people of the Maritime provinces by putting on a steamship line that would meet with the approval of our people, and make our hearts glad to see them coming into the ports of Halifax and St. John. He damned that proposal with faint praise because his duty, first, was not to the port of Halifax, but as I conceive it, to the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company, of which he and his company, Pickford and Black, Limited, are the managers and the operators at the port of Halifax to-day.


Thomas Andrew Low: I just want to say a few words, Mr. Chairman, before the item carries. I have listened with a great deal of pleasure and deep interest to members on both sides of the House who have spoken on this subject of the development of bur trade with the West Indies. I wish to join with other members of the House in congratulating the hon. member for Cumberland on his masterly presentation to the House this afternoon. It was one of the most informative, eloquent and constructive trade discussions to which it has been my pleasure to listen in this House.
I want to say just a few words in reference to the remarks of the right hon. leader of the opposition. He has apparently come to the conclusion that the members on this side of the House have changed their opinion of the merchant marine. He spoke of their vicious opposition to it as a reckless expenditure. I can only say to my right hon. friend that if any groups of men in this House were to propose the same plan, or the same scheme, I think that every hon. member on this side would oppose it just as vigorously as hon. members did on that occasion.


Arthur Meighen: They did not oppose it at all.


Thomas Andrew Low: I am using the words of my
right hon. friend. I may be mistaken, but I took his words down.

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Arthur Meighen: That was after the construction was practically complete.


Thomas Andrew Low: I think I took down my
right hon. friend's exact words.


Arthur Meighen: That is right but it was after the construction was practically complete.


Thomas Andrew Low: The real difficulty is that the
ships were not designed properly for the work they were to perform. The whole scheme was very ill-considered, and I am sure that if this government were to attempt to build vessels according to any such ill-considered plan as that of my right hon. friend many members of the House would oppose it. The junior member for Halifax (Mr. Black) said he did not think that the Canadian Government Merchant Marine could compete with other lines. In that I agree with him at the present. But what is the real cause of this? The reason is obvious. The ships are not designed or built for the purposes of trade between the West Indies and Canadian ports. I venture to say, however, that if the shrewd president of the Canadian National Railways undertakes to build ships and place a service upon that route he will do so in exactly the same manner as the Canadian Pacific Railway would1 do if they were undertaking such a service.


Arthur Meighen: The same way as the
" Palais Canadien " was acquired?


Thomas Andrew Low: 
Arthur Meighen: There is only one thing more I want to say in reference to a statement by the minister; I know he made it inadvertently. I want to warn him against putting his foot in a very bad and deepr hole. He is anxious to foster trade, but the only specific suggestion he made was that we might adopt the system of having consular trade agents similar to that which the United States follows, and having those trade agents remunerated by fees, or largely by fees, on export invoices. That appeals apparently to the minister. My warning is this:	That
he should look up the debate of 1921. In that year we brought into parliament this proposal. It met with fierce opposition from his friends. My hon. friend was not in the House at the time. My recollection of its fate is that it passed this House, but that his government abandoned it. I would not like him now bo commit himself too closely to a programme which was so treated at the hands of his party.


Thomas Andrew Low: I did not say that I was
strongly in favour of it. I merely said the plap was worth considering.


Arthur Meighen: Worth re-considering
put it.


Thomas Andrew Low: No, worth considering.
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Arthur Meighen: I would put it, worth
re-considering.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canada and South Africa, steamship service between, $125,000.
Arthur Meighen: Are we to sit until after midnight? We have taken up time to-day which has been pretty well distributed. We have no nights now at all. We are sitting late every night, and it is nearly midnight again.


Thomas Andrew Low: The summer is coming and
we would like to get through as soon as possible. I think we might proceed for a little while longer. I may say this item has been reduced by $21,000.


Arthur Meighen: What company is giving the service?


Thomas Andrew Low: It is the Elder Dempster
Company with offices in Montreal.


Arthur Meighen: Is it the same service
as before?


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes.


Mr. HANSON:: How many trips a year
are given?


Thomas Andrew Low: Eleven trips a year.


Richard Burpee Hanson: St. John or Montreal?
Mr. LOW7:	Montreal in the summer time
and St. John in the winter time.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canada and New Zealand on the Pacific ocean, steam sendee between, $100,000.
Arthur Meighen: Is this the same service
as before?


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: How many trips a year?


Thomas Andrew Low: Twelve trips.


Arthur Meighen: What goods are carried?


Thomas Andrew Low: I,umber is one of the large
items.
Mr, MEIGHEN:	Seeing that the merchant marine boats are practically only fitted for lumber, according to the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff), how is it that one of our own boats does not run on this service?


Thomas Andrew Low: The articles carried are: Canned salmon, fresh fruit, potatoes, onions, leather, rubber boots, lumber, codfish, whiskey, bicycles, chairs, horses, suspenders, sewing machines, hardware and machinery.


Arthur Meighen: The minister knows that the boats of the merchant marine can carry

that class of freight all right, and it is practically all lumber anyway. Why has he not a merchant marine boat on this service, if he believes what his friends have been arguing all day?


Thomas Andrew Low: This is a passenger and mail
service, as well as freight.


Arthur Meighen: The minister said nearly all lumber.


Thomas Andrew Low: Freight is carried in addition
to the passenger and mail service.


Mr. LUCAS:: What Company is the contract made with?


Thomas Andrew Low: The Union Steamship Company of New Zealand. New Zealand contributes $100,000 and the Fiji government about $25,000.


Arthur Meighen: Do we bonus boats to
carry passengers?


Thomas Andrew Low: No, but my hon. friend asked
me why the merchant marime could not operate this service, and I replied that it was a passenger service as well as a freight service.


Arthur Meighen: I know, but we are not interested as a government in the passenger end; we are interested in the freight end, to get sale for our goods. The goods we sell can go on the merchant marine boats. If what the government says about these boats is correct, they should be on this service.


Thomas Andrew Low: I doubt very much whether
it would be possible to make it pay with the freight service alone.


Arthur Meighen: I doubt very .much if
there is much else. We have not much passenger business to New Zealand. That business would not sustain anything at all.


Thomas Andrew Low: There is a passenger traffic
through Canada en route to England, and there is a passenger service as well to Australia.


Arthur Meighen: It goes to Australia?


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes. We do not subsidize it
to Australia.


Arthur Meighen: There might be a very
little service to England, but there are other boats to perform that service. I think if the minister will wait till morning he will find out that our boats will not carry lumber. That is usually the verdict. There is always something else they will not carry.


Thomas Andrew Low: Perhaps not. My hon. friend
knows better than I do about that.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Supply-Steamship Services
Prince Rupert, B.C., and Queen Charlotte islands, steam service between, $21,000.
William Thomas Lucas: Are these yearly contracts?


Thomas Andrew Low: This contract is for three years. It was made last year.


Arthur Meighen: Are there any boats
carrying grain out of Prince Rupert?


Thomas Andrew Low: -Not that I know of-no elevators out there.


Arthur Meighen: Where does the minister
expect to get the boats when the new elevator is put up for the Prince Rupert route?


Thomas Andrew Low: I am sure there are many
vessels that will be glad to go into Prince Rupert if they can get a cargo.


Arthur Meighen: And around by the
Panama canal?


Thomas Andrew Low: I do not know what route they
will follow. They will follow the route which will be to the best advantage.


Arthur Meighen: Would the Panama not
be the only route?


Thomas Andrew Low: It would depend on where
they were going.


Arthur Meighen: But for grain.


Thomas Andrew Low: There is a trade developed with the Orient.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Victoria and San Francisco, steam service between, $3,000.	'
Thomas Andrew Low: I do not think this item is
debatable. We are compelled by the order an council pursuant to the British North American Act admitting British Columbia to confederation to keep up this service.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Victoria, Vancouver, way ports and Skagway, steam service between, $25,000.
Richard Burpee Hanson: What company is that?


Arthur Meighen: Is this under the British ,North America Act?


Thomas Andrew Low: The item just passed, the
Victoria and Sam Francisco service is the one to which I referred. If my right hon. friend has any doubt, that the order is pursuant to the British North America Act I will read the clause to him. It is as follows:
The Dominion will provide an efficient mail service fortnightly by steam communication between Victoria and San Francisco and twice a week between Victoria and Olympia, the vessels to be adapted for the conveyance ol freight and passengers.
That is a clause in the order in council pursuant to the British North America Act, admitting British Columbia to confederation.


Arthur Meighen: Then my answer was
right.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What company operates
this service?


Thomas Andrew Low: The Caifcidian Pacific Railway
Company operates this Victoria-Skagway service.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is there a suggestion that
the Canadian. Government Merchant Marine should enter into the service or the Canadian National? I understand they are looking for a steamer; they wish to have one built or buy one to put on this service?


Thomas Andrew Low: I have no knowledge of it.


William Thomas Lucas: Will this pay for the cost of carrying the mail.


Thomas Andrew Low: Yes, any boat we subsidize is
compelled to carry mail.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Vancouver and Northern ports of British Columbia steam service between, $24,800.
Arthur Meighen: What company has that
contract?


Thomas Andrew Low: The Union Steamship Company of British Columbia.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Arthur Meighen: The minister is not going to ask us to deal with the other items tonight.


Thomas Andrew Low: I would like to make a little
progress.


Arthur Meighen: You have made a lot
of progress.


Thomas Andrew Low: Let us proceed a little further.


Arthur Meighen: Some hon. gentlemen
may want to discuss these items.


Thomas Andrew Low: I do not want to press the
matter, but I want to make progress.


Arthur Meighen: You have made progress.


Thomas Andrew Low: I do not think so.


Arthur Meighen: I do not think you
will make any progress by pressing it further to-night.


Thomas Andrew Low: If there is any special item
my hon. friend wishes to have stand over, I am quite agreeable.
Postal Employees


Arthur Meighen: We have not obstructed anything to-night.


Thomas Andrew Low: Let us take the items to the
bottom of the page; they are only small ones.


Arthur Meighen: There may be some
discussion, and you have done very well. Any delay. which has -occurred to-day has been on the debate brought about by an hon. member on the minister's side of the House. Why should he press the House further?


Thomas Andrew Low: Then I will stop for to-night.
Progress reported.


NATIONAL RAILWAYS AND SHIPPING
Thomas Andrew Low: That the name of Sir Henry Drayton be substituted for that of Mr. Ladner on the standing committee on National Railways and Shipping.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
On motion of Mr. Macdonald (Pictou) the House adjourned at 11.55 p.m.
Friday, June 13, 1924