1924-05-28

[Stage Direction]
Mr. W. F. CARROLL (Cape Breton South and Richmond), presented the first report of the select standing committee on Industrial and International Relations recommending that the committee be given leave to have their proceedings printed from day to day for use of members when deemed advisable.
On motion of Mr. Carroll the report was concurred in.

[Stage Direction]
On the motion of the Right Hon. W. L. Mackenzie King (Prime Minister) the names of Messrs. Hanson and Stewart (Leeds) were substituted for those of Messrs. Baxter and Black (Yukon) on the select standing committee on Privileges and Elections.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. NEILL:: The House having been informed on April 28th, 1924, that the Department of Immigration and Colonization had been asked and had given consent to the request of the British Empire Steel Corporation to be allowed to bring one hundred and five Chinese from England to be employed on certain boats of the company plying between the ports of Sydney, Louisburg, Halifax, St. John and Montreal, and that a bond had been deposited

Questions
by the company "which would be retained until the department is satisfied that all the Chinese covered by same have been checked out of Canada."
1.	If this consent was granted under the provisions of the Chinese Immigration Act of 1923, under what section is the authority to be found?
2.	If not under said act, under what other act and section can said authority be found?
3.	Prior to granting such consent had the attention of the department been directed to the provision of- (a) section 52 of the Immigration Act of 1910, being chapter 27 as re-enacted by subsection 3 of section 24 of the Immigration Act 1919, (b) section 1 of the Alien Labour Act, being chapter 97 of the Revised Statutes of 1906?


Hon. Mr. ROBB:: 1.	There is nothing in the Immigration Act and regulations or the Chinese Immigration Act of 1023. which strictly applies in a case of this kind. There are, however, precedents for the action taken by the Department of Immigration and Colonization. The practice of allowing Chinese to be brought forward for temporary employment on steamships during the summer months has been followed for a number of years past. In August, 1912, a Chinese crew of twenty-three was allowed to come forward for employment on the steamship Lingan. In August, 1914, a Chinese crew of thirty-three was brought out for the steamship Lingan. In December, 1915, four Chinese came forward for the same vessel. Again in August, 1916, thirty-three came out for the Lingan and thirty-two for the Hochelaga. Also in August, 1916, a Chinese crew of thirty-four was allowed to come forward for work on the steamship Rosecastle. In June, 1917, the Dominion Steel Corporation wrote the department that it was practically impossible to maintain native crews on their steamers, and one hundred and eight Chinese were brought from England for work on six of the company's coastal steamers. Also in June, 1917, twenty-seven Chinese were brought forward for the steamship Maskinonge. Again in February, 1923, seven Chinese came forward from England for employment on the steamship Kamaraska. In June, 1923, twenty were brought from England to man the steamship Rosecastle. In all of these cases a bond was furnished as a guarantee that the Chinese would be returned from Canada, at the conclusion of their employment, and the conditions of the bond were complied with. It must be remembered that in none of the cases referred to were these Chinese admitted to Canada within the meaning of the Immigration Act, but were simply allowed to come to Canada temporarily.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	No.



ENFORCEMENT OF ALIEN LABOUR ACT

Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Who is in charge of the enforcement of the Alien Labour Act?
2.	How many American citizens have been admitted into Canada during the past two years and crossed the border to take positions with the Canadian National Railways and the Canadian Pacific Railway?
3.	Are returned men and other Canadian citizens being discharged by the dining car department of the Canadian National Railways and the Canadian Pacific Railway and their places in Canada taken by coloured American citizens at cut wages?
4.	Is it a fact the Canadian National Railways dining car department are constantly employing help from Chicago to work on trains in Canada while returned men are to be seen walking the streets begging for employment and while returned men in this department are being let out?
5.	Do the Canadian National Railway Company's reports for income tax returns show that a large percentage of former Grand Trunk employees are American citizens?
6.	What percentage of employees are Americans in this department?


Hon. Mr. COPP:: 1.	The Alien Labour Act, chapter 97 of the Revised Statutes of Canada, does not provide that it shall be administered by any department of the government. Section 5 of the act provides that, with the consent of the Attorney-General of the province in which the prosecution is had or of a judge of a superior county count, fines provided by the act may be recovered on a summary convic-
' tion, and such proceedings may be taken by any person desiring the enforcement of the act.
2.	The manner of tabulating statistics does not disclose the information desired.
3.	No; so far as question applies to Canadian National Railways.
4.	No.
5.	No.
6.	As to Canadian National Railways- could be determined only by taking a census of all employees.



HOTEL SCRIBE

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: 1.	What are the names and addresses of the persons, firms or corporations receiving, and how much did each receive of the 5733,693 paid in respect of the Hotel Scribe for taxes, imposts, removal of tenants, etc., and for which such purposes was each payment made?
2.	What does the government cover under the term " etc." used in its answer with respect to the Scribe Hotel and given on May 14, 1924?


Hon. Mr. GRAHAM:: Statement re purchase of Hotel Scribe as of date April 30th, 1924
francs
Purchase of property	 28,000,000
Registration fee	 3,360,000
Registration of mortgage	 750,000

Questions
Delay, holder of option	 600,000
Grand cafe	 3,710,000
Draft on Bankers' Trust	 20,000
Legal fees	 60,000
Taking up option on purchase ..	1,735,000
Payments to architects	 192,626
Jockey Club, on account of dispossession	 212,950
Cash in hand	 1,720,000
40,360,576
Part of	Sec.	Tp.	Rge.	Mer.N.W. i and L.S's. 15 and	16 4	87	20	W.5L.S's. 9 and 16	
5	87	20	W.5All	
7	87	20	W.5All	
8	87	20	W.5S.i	
9	87	20	W.5
Those portions lying west of river of L.S. 4 and S i L.
S.5	
28	86	20	W.5L.S's. 1, 2 and 7	
27	85	20	W.5L.S's. 7 and 8	
4	85	20	W.5
Those portions lying west of
DEVELOPMENT OF OIL OR CARBON-BLACK Mr. KENNEDY (Edmonton):
1.	Has Mr. A. A. Rogers acquired land or lands near Peace river or elsewhere in the province of Alberta by lease or otherwise, on his own behalf or on behalf of others, or himself and others, for the development of oil or carbon-black?
2.	If so, what land or lands, (a) in the vicinity of Peace river; (b) elsewhere in Alberta?
3.	Has agreement been entered into between Mr. A. A. Rogers or others, or himself and others and the government, regarding the production of carbon-black as to (a) the extent of investment; (b) the time within which development must commence; (c) the rate at which it must proceed?
4.	Has Mr. A. A. Rogers held oil lands by lease or
otherwise in the vicinity of Peace river or elsewhere in Alberta in partnership with Mr. H. L. Williams?


Hon. Mr. STEWART (Minister of the Interior) :: 1.	Yes.
2- (a) Part of Sec. Tp. Rge. Mer. L.S. 11 and that portion lying East of Peace river of S.W.i of	
and those portions lying east of Peace river of L
S. 1 and 8	
Those portions lying east of river of L.S.'s. 12 and 13
and L.S. 9 of	
L.S's. 7, 10 and 15	
West half	
East half	  __
l.s. i6	7. 7. 7. 7
N.W. i and L.S's. 15 and 16 L.S. 3 and W. | L.S. 6.. .. L.S.'s. 13 and 14..
L.S. 13	'
L.S's. 2 and 7.. .
L.S. 9	 7
L.S's. 11, 13, 14 and 15.. .. L.S's. 9, 10 and 16	
L.S. 12	
N.E.i	
W. I	
N.W.i.. .
S.E. i		'	'
S.W.i	

28	84	21	W.514	87	20	W.515	87	20	W.516	86	20	W.517	86	20	W.521	84	21	W.515	86	21	W.516	86	21	W.521	86	20	W.512	86	21	W.532	85	21	W.534	84	20	W.533	85	21	W.52	86	21	W.532	85	21	W.534	85	20	W.534	84	20	W.535	84	20	W.523	85	20	W.51	85	20	W.525	85	20	W.535	85	20	W.536	85	20	W.5river of N.W.i	
5	88	20	W.5and of	
8	88	20	W.5and of	
9	88	20	W.5N.E.i	12	87	21	W.5All	
13	87	21	W.5All	
24	87	21	W.55.1	
25	87	21	W.5L.S's. 1, 7 and 8	
26	87	21	W.5L.S's. 13 and 14	
7	84	20	W.5W. i	
18	84	20	W.5L.S. 8	
7	84	20	W.5
S. i, N.W. i and L.S's. 10 and
15	
19	87	20	W.55.1	and L.S. 11 and 12.. .. 20	87	20	W.5W. i	
30	87	20	W.5W. i and N.E.i	
31	87	20	W.5N.E.i	
25	87	21	W.5L.S's. 12, 13 and 14	
16	86	21	W.5N.i	
19	86	21	W.5L.S's. 3, 4 and 6	
30	86	21	W.5
N.E.i and L.S. 5, 12 13 and
14	
6	86	21	W.5S.W.i and L.S.2	
7	86	21	W.5N.E.i	
3	86	21	W.5E. 1 and N.W. i	
10	86	21	W.5L-S. 2	
15	86	21	W.5N.W.i	
8	86	21	W.5N.W.i	
l	87	21	W.5AH	
2	87	21	W.5N-i and S.E.i	
3	87	21	W.5AH	
10	87	21	W.5
N. i, S.W. i and L.S's. 1
and 2	31	85	21	W.5L.S's. 1, 2 and 3	
6	86	21	W.5L.S's. 10 and 15	
36	84	20	W.5L.S's. 13 and 14	
7	86	20	W.5L.S's. 12 and 13	
17	86	20	W.5S-W.i	
30	86	20	W.5L.S's. 5 and 6	
3	86	20	W.5E. i and L.S's. 13 and 14..	16	84	20	W.5N-i and L.S's. 4 and 5..	17	84	20	W.5L.S's. 9, 15 and 16	
19	86	20	W.5N.W.i and L.S's. 5 and 6.	13	86	21	W.5E.i and S.W.i	
14	86	21	W.5N.W.i and L.S's. 10 and 15.	9	87	20	W.5W.i and L.S's. 2 and 7..	16	87	20	W.5All	
17	87	20	W.5All	
18	87	20	W.5LS. 8	
3	85	20	W.5
Questions
Part of
L.S's. 5 and 6	
N.i, S.W.i and L.S's. 2, 7
and 8	 4
E.i, S.W.i and L.S's. 11, 12
and 14	 5
W.i and L.S's. 2, 7, 10 and
15	25
N.i and L.S's. 7 and 8.. 34
N.i	35
W.i and L.S's. 2, 7, 10 and
15	36
S.W.i	 3
32 25 27 4 9 10
5
Sec. Tp. Rge. Mer.
3 87 21 W. 5 87 21 W. 5
87 21 W. 5
87
E.i E.i..

L.S. 16	
E.i	
L.S's. 4, 5, 12, 13 and 14.
N.W.i	
N.E.i and L.S's. 7 and 8..
N.W.i	15
N.E.i	 - - 16
L.S's. 1 and 8	21
L.S's. 9 and 10	14
E.i, N.W.i and L.S. 5.. 30
All	31
All	32
L.S's. 3 and 4	 3
L.S. 1	 4
L.S's. 12, 13 and 14	18
W.i	19
L.S's. 10, 12, 13, 14 and 15. 18
L.S. 14	21
18 8 13 9
L.S. 2.. L.S. 4.. W.i.. . L.S. 1.. L.S's. 6, L.S's. 1 L.S. 2
11 and and 8,
14..
and
S.E.i
20
87 20 88* 20 86 20
L.S.5	 9
S.W.i of L.S. 2 and S.i L.S.
3	 8
L.S's.	3	and	6	34L.S's.	11	and	12	34
and L.S's. 10 and
S.E.i..
N.W.i
15	 5
All	6
E.i and S.W.i	 1
L.S's. 1 and 8	12
N. i	35
Those portions lying to east
of river of	 8
t	and 9
L.S's. 2 and 7	16
Those portions lying to east
of river of S.E.i	 5	88	20	W.5
Those portions lying to east
of river of N.E.i..	.. 5	88	20	W.5

84 86 86 86 86 86 86 86 86
86 86 86 87 87 85
86
85
85
86 86
86
85
86
87
87 86
88 88 88
20
20
20
20
20
21
21
21
21
21
21
21
21
21
21
20
21
21
20



W. 5 W. 5 W. 5 W. 5 W.5 W. 5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5 W.5

[Stage Direction]
Part of	Sec. Tp. Rge. Mer.			
L.S's. 11 and 14	20	86	20	W.5L.S's. 3 and 6..	20	86	20	W.5L.S's. 2 and 7.. ..	15	85	21	W.5L.S. 15	15	85	21	W.5L.S's. 4 and 15.. .	23	85	21	W.5L.S. 10	15	85	21	W.5L.S. 13	
23	85	21	W.5S.E.i and L.S's.	9 and 10 16	85	21	W.5L.S's. 5, 11 and 12.	34	84	21	W.5L.S. 13	
8	85	20	W.5LS 16	
8	85	20	W.5LS 1	
8	85	21	W.5School Lands	E.I	11	87	20	W.5All	11	87	21	W.5L.S. 16	29	85	21	W.5N.E.i	11	85	20	W.5LSI 	29	85	21	W.5L.S. 6	29	85	21	W.5
(b) No information.
3. Yes, with Canadian Petroleums, Limited, (a) Yes.
(b)	Yes.
(c)	Yes.
4. No information.

Mr. DOUCET:: 1.	Was Mr. Will'ie Juneau, postmaster at La Tuque, in the electoral division of Champlain, Quebec, dismissed ?
2.	If so, was it for political partisanship?
3.	Who laid the complaint and was an investigation held?
4.	What evidence was given and by whom was such evidence given to support such finding?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: In regard to
this question and the following question, No. 17, the same information is requested under the heading of notice of motion for production of papers by the same hon. member. I think it is sufficient that the House would grant either one of those requests. I do not think they should be put in two forms.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Question dropped.



INDUSTRIAL INVESTIGATOR, NOVA SCOTIA

Mr. WOODSWORTH:: 1.	Has J. C. Watters been appointed as an industrial investigator in the province of Nova Scotia?
2.	If so, what are his duties?
3.	By whom was he appointed?
4.	To whom does he make his reports?
5.	What is the salary?


Hon. Mr. COPP:: 1.	Yes, one month, from April 11 to May 11, 1924.
2.	Making a survey of industrial conditions in the coal mine districts of Nova Scotia.
3.	Department of Labour.
4.	Department of Labour.
5.	$250 per month.
Questions



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAY LINES

Mr. BAXTER:: 1.	What mileage and what lines are embraced in what is termed "Duluth, Winnipeg and Pacific" lines of the Canadian National Railways as expressed in the statement published by the Statistical branch of the Department of Trade and Commerce?
2.	What mileage and what lines are embraced in what is termed "New England lines" in the same publication?
3.	What have been the total operating costs for the calendar years 1922 and 1923 of the Duluth, Winnipeg and Pacific lines and what have been the total operating revenues for the same period?
4.	What have been the total operating costs for the calendar years 1922 and 1923 of the New England lines and what have been the total operating revenues for the same period?
5.	What federal, state and municipal taxation in the United States of America and in each of them is paid in connection with lines of the C.N.R. in that territory?


George Perry Graham: All the information
in the first four questions will be distributed in a few minutes in the form of a printed report. No. 5 is now in hand.



EMPLOYMENT OF T. L. CORY

Mr. GRIMMER:: 1.	Was T. L. Cory ever retained or employed by the Department of Justice?
2.	If so, for what period of time was he so employed and what was he paid?
3.	Was he ever retained or employed by the Department of the Interior?
4.	If so, for what period of time was he so employed and what was he paid?
5.	During any such time was the said T. L. Cory's employment authorized under the provisions of the Civil Service Act, and if so, for what period?
6.	What experience, if any, as a practising barrister did the said T. L. Cory have prior to being retained or employed by the Department of Justice?
7.	Is the said T. L. Cory a son of .the Deputy Minister of the Department of the Interior?
8.	What are the names of the legal officers of the Department of the Interior, and what salary do they respectively receive?
9.	Is one of the said legal officers of the Department of the Interior a son of W. W. Cory, Deputy Minister of the department?
10.	Was he appointed to the department by open competitive examination, and if so, when?


Hon. Mr. LAPOINTE:: 1.	Yes. Legal services in sundry cases.
2.	(a) October 5, 1920, to January 15, 1922, $2,922.60; (b) June 2, 1923, to September 21, 1923, $2,800. (Counsel for defence in Eskimo murder trials.)
3.	Yes.
4.	8th February, 1922, to 1st June, 1923, and from the 22nd September, 1923, to the 12th April, 1924, $7,079.19.
5.	January 12, 1924, to April 12, 1924, certificate Civil Service Commission.
6.	Employed on graduation. Had usual legal training, also departmental experience and overseas active service.
[Mr, Copp.j
7.	Yes.
8.	K. R. Daly, $4,020; W. M. Cory, $2,700.
9.	Yes.
10.	Appointed to position of Junior Departmental Solicitor 1st August, 1922, by Civil Service Commission, as a result of a promotional competition.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS-ADVANCES

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: 1.	Was the sum of $o26,191,127.26 advanced on account of the railways now forming part of the National system (including the Intercolonial and railway capital) in the years 1915 to 1921, inclusive?
2.	If not, what was the sum so advanced?


George Perry Graham: 1 and 2. The total outlay for railway purposes in the period referred to was $526,191 -127.26.



BRITISH EMPIRE STEEL CORPORATION

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: 1.	On what date was the petition for supplementary
letters patent of the British Empire Steel Corporation Limited, praying for an increase of capital to $500,000,000, received by the Department of the Secretary of State?	.
2.	Did the Under Secretary of State prepare any memorandum holding that the applicants were not entitled as a right to the supplementary letters patent applied for and that the right of investigation therefore existed? If so, what was the date of such memorandum ?
3.	Was the said application subsequently withdrawn and if so, on what date?
4.	Was such withdrawal made by telegram and if so, how did such telegram read?


Hon. Mr. COPP:: 1.	14th May, 1920.
2.	The Under-Secretary of State prepared a memorandum submitting for the consideration of the Secretary of State the question whether the applicants were entitled to supplementary letters patent as a matter of right and also the question of policy whether an investigation should be held.
3.	Yes, on the 25th May, 1920.
4.	Yes. Telegram reads:



A25 MOE. 57

[Stage Direction]
Montreal, Que., 1025 A. 25, May.
Thomas Mulvey,
Under -Secretary of State,
Ottawa, Ont.
On the urgent request of the Premier of Nova Scotia and others of his government we have decided to. incorporate the British Empire Steel Corporation Limited under the laws of Nova Scotia and would therefore ask you to kindly allow us to withdraw our application for supplementary letters patent and return to us or cheque for fee payable thereon.
Market, Skinner & Hyde.

Questions


Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	What amount was spent by the government of Canada in relieving unemployment in Canada, in Winnipeg, Hamilton, Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal during the past six years?
2.	What sum respectively was spent by the (a) Dominion government, (b) the Provincial government, (c) the municipalities aforesaid, relieving unemployment in these five cities the past six years?
3.	Did the government during these years have any agreement with the provinces and municipalities as to any form of relief? If so, what was the arrangement?
4.	Are any steps being taken for next winter by the government alone or with the provinces or municipalities as to taking care of unemployment on the dumping of those out of work in the larger centres of population?



UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. DOUCET:: For a copy of all correspondence and other documents exchanged between the Postmaster General or the government of Canada, the Civil Service Commission and all other persons since January 1st, 1922, to date on the subject of the dismissal of Willie Juneau, postmaster at La Tuque, Que., and the appointment of a new postmaster. Also a copy of the findings and reports of the investigation that was held on the said Juneau.



DISMISSAL OF POSTMASTER AT FOUR ROADS

Alexandre Joseph Doucet: For a copy of all correspondence, petitions, and other documents exchanged between the Postmaster General or the government of Canada, and all other persons since July 1st, 1922, to date on the subject of the dismissal of Edward Gibbs, postmaster, at Four Roads, Gloucester county, New Brunswick. Also a copy of the reports of tihe investigation that was held, together with a copy of the findings of the investigator.



INQUIRY FOR RETURN


[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. J. B. M. BAXTER (St. John City and Counties of St. John and Albert):: In the absence of the hon. member for Royal (Mr. Jones), I should like to ask when we may expect to have brought down the return ordered on the 7th of April last with reference to the Ste. Anne de Bellevue Hospital. I think the information in connection with this would be pertinent to the discussion that is now under way with reference to certain estimates that were before the House last night. From the 7th April to the present time seems a most unreasonable delay in answering the four questions which were put and which, I think, could be answered without much difficulty.


Hon. H. S. BELAND (Minister of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment):: Does my hon.
friend refer to an order of the House asking for some information?


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: This question was asked
on the 7th of April by the hon. member for Royal:
Mr. Jones:
1.	Whether the government employed resident and visiting physicians at the Ste. Anne de Bellevue Military Hospital during the years 1921, 1922 and 1923, and if so, what their names are.
2.	What remuneration each one received.
3.	Resident and visiting physicians for the year 1924.
4.	Whether they receive an annual salary or a fee for each visit, and how much.
These questions were not answered as questions, but they were made an order for return. That simple matter has taken from the 7th April to the 28th May, and the answers are not here yet.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I was under the impression that that return had been laid on the Table of the House. I am still under that impression, although I may be mistaken. Surely there is no desire on the part of the department to withhold any information in this connection. I shall be pleased to make an inquiry, and the return will be brought down immediately if it has not already been brought down.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: It may have been brought down since the hon. member went to New Brunswick. When he left, he had not received the information.


Henri Sévérin Béland: In connection with the
observations made a few minutes ago by the hon. member for St. John and Albert (Mr. Baxter), I have before me the Votes and Proceedings of the 30th April, which show the following:
Mr. Beland, a member of the King's Privy Council, presented-Return to an order of the House of the 7th April, 1924, for a return showing:-
1.	Whether the government employed resident and visiting physicians at the Ste.-Anne-de-Bellevue Military Hospital during the years 1921, 1922 and 1923, and if so, what their names are.
2.	What remuneration each one received.
3.	Resident and visiting physicians for the year 1924.
4.	Whether they receive an annual salary or a fee for each visit, and how much.
This undoubtedly is the information to which my hon. friend referred. The return was tabled as I stated.



SWAMP LANDS FOR RECLAMATION

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. J. S. WOODSWORTH (Centre Winnipeg) :: I should like to ask the Minister
League oj Nations

of the Interior whether it is true as reported that Mr. J. D. McArthur, of Winnipeg, has obtained permission from the Dominion government to purchase for reclamation by drainage certain swamp lands situated about Traverse bay in Manitoba in townships 15 to 19, range 8, 7 and 10, east of the principal meridian, comprising 89,642 acres.


Hon. CHARLES STEWART (Minister of the Interior):: I could not answer my
hon. friend offhand, but I will at once make inquiry and answer his question at the next sitting of the House.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Is it the policy
of the government to grant lands for reclamation to private individuals, or has the government considered the possibility of reclaiming these lands and letting the settlers have them at the lowest possible minimum?


Charles A. Stewart: It has been the policy of the government to grant to private parties lands for reclamation purposes throughout the three prairie provinces, but I could not offhand give my hon. friend the information with respect to this particular application. I should like to be certain about it.



DOMINION ELECTIONS ACT AMENDMENT

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Right Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN (Leader of the Opposition):: Could the Minister of
Justice indicate when he will probably go on with his bill in connection with the transferable vote?


Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice):: To-morrow the House does not
' sit, so that there will be only one more sitting this week. I suppose the middle of next week, if that suits my right hon. friend.


Arthur Meighen: Any day will suit us.



LEAGUE OF NATIONS TREATIES OF MUTUAL ASSISTANCE

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: The leader of the opposition, (Mr. Meighen) asked me yesterday with respect to certain draft treaties of mutual guarantee and assistance. Resolution XIV of the Third Assembly of the League of Nations (1922) recommended for the consideration of the members of the league proposals made for a general treaty of mutual guarantee by the Temporary Mixed Commission. With regard to the adoption of a treaty

of mutual guarantee binding the parties to it to render assistance to a country which is attacked, the Canadian government represented lhat, the national conditions and geographical situation of the Dominion made it difficult for Canada to agree to such a treaty without much consideration and reservation. It was pointed out that the intention was that the obligation to render assistance should be limited in principle to those countries situated in the same part of the globe; that while Canada was situated in the North American continent, she Was a nation forming part of the British Empire and it therefore seemed difficult to devise a scheme which would give due effect to these conflicting considerations; it further seemed very unlikely that the Canadian people in the present circumstances would be prepared to consent to any agreement binding Canada to give assistance as proposed to other nations, and that therefore the government did not see its way to a participation in the treaty of mutual guarantee.
Following the 1923 Assembly of the League of Nations, a draft treaty of mutual assistance was also prepared by the Temporary Mixed Commission for the purpose of facilitating the reduction of armaments.contemplated by the covenant of the league. Certain confidential observations of the Imperial government, relative to the provisions of the draft treaty, have been communicated to the government of Canada, the most recent despatch thereon having been received by me since the question of the right hon. the leader of the opposition in the House yesterday. The provisions of [DOT]the draft treaty and observations thereon are at present under consideration by the government.


Arthur Meighen: Would the Prime Minister give the date or the approximate date of [DOT]the response of the Canadian government which he referred to first?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Speaking offhand, I think it was June of last year.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. C. A. GAUVREAU (Temiscouata):: May I ask the Prime Minister when he proposes to have the House sit on Wednesday evenings?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think we shall take the views of the members through the Chief Whips on that point and give the House an answer in the course of a few days.

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. A. ROBB (Acting Minister of Finance) moved that the House go into committee of Supply:
Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals): Mr. Speaker, it is customary for the Minister of Railways to present the annual statement of the Canadian National Railways and the Canadian Merchant Marine before the Speaker leaves the chair.
I have laid on the Table, and hon. members will I think find copies in their post office boxes, the report of the Canadian National Railways, the report of the Vermont Central Railway, and the report of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine. Now, treating this question is rather dry work and I fear I shall have to ask the House to be patient with me; but I can assure hon. gentlemen that the reading of the statements which I shall submit is no more monotonous to them than it is to myself. Of necessity I have to read these statements, and again I ask the indulgence of the House if there seems to prevail a general monotony in these presentations. First of all I will take up the Canadian Government Merchant Marine.

[Stage Direction]
The fifth annual report of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine, covering operations for the year 1923, is printed and is now being distributed. The gross revenues were $8,992,308 and the operating expenses, $10,856,601; entailing a deficit from operation of $1,864,293, compared with $2,384,189 in 1922. There was a decrease of $713,478 in gross revenue, a decrease of $1,233,374 in operating expenses and of $519,896 in the operating deficit. To the operating deficit is added accrued interest due the government, $4,495,184, and $3,008,192 for depreciation. These, with a reserve of $1,000 for doubtful debts and claims, bring the total loss for the year up to $9,368,670. The total deficit for the previous year was $9,649,478. The improvement therefore was $280,808.
Sir Henry Thornton's report is as follows:
The main reasons for the decrease in operating deficit were the cancellation of South American, Mediterranean and certain other unremunerative services, also the curtailment as far as possible of general expenses.
As a result of the strikes which occurred at Cardiff, Swansea, London, Antwerp and Vancouver, sailings were considerably interfered with and gross receipts and net earnings were in each case diminished.
Generally speaking full cargoes on outward trips were secured, but satisfactory cargoes were not obtainable for homeward trips, which naturally increased operating expenses out of all proportion to operating revenues.
During the year different vessels were chartered for carriage of grain on the Great Lakes and for carriage of pulpwood in the St. Lawrence Gulf trade.
Fleet-The fleet consists of sixty vessels, particulars of which are attached. The remaining four vessels previously included in the fleet, namely the " Canadian Settler," " Thos. J. Drummond," " J. A. McKee " and the "Sheba," were sold at satisfactory prices. Offers received for certain others were not sufficiently attractive to make acceptance advisable.
Insurance-Since April 1, 1923, insurance was provided out of the company's own insurance fund, the result being a credit balance of approximately $318,795.47, all of which is invested in Dominion of Canada bonds.
The vessels whether in active service or not have been kept in a high state of efficiency and repair.
No total losses occurred during the year and the number of minor accidents was small.
Trade Routes-In November, 1923, a new monthly service was inaugurated between Vancouver and the United Kingdom. It is expected that this will provide accommodation for farmers in the western provinces and shippers and exporters on the Pacific coast.
Eight of the smaller vessels have been utilized in the grain trade on the Great Lakes. Four of the vessels trading to United Kingdom ports were fitted in the spring for the carriage of cattle. During the St. Lawrence navigation season several of the smaller vessels were used in the carriage of pulpwood from the Maritime provinces to Quebec and Ontario points.
Recommendations-It is still the feeling of the directors that the recommendations made last year in regard to reduction of capital cost of the fleet and to the interest payable to the government should be carried out.
Management-The directors wish to record their appreciation of the satisfactory services rendered by the officers, employees and crews in the company's service during the year.
Mr. McMASTER:: Does the minister inelude interest charges in the operating costs?


George Perry Graham: We include a depreciation of $3,000,000.


Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: And $4,000,-
000 in interest.


George Perry Graham: Yes, but that is noted in the deficit; it is not included in the operating costs. In calculating the deficit, the sum of $4,000,000 due the government in interest is taken into account. I come now to the Canadian National Railways.



THE CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS

[Stage Direction]
I am now in a position to bring down the detailed report on operations of the Canadian National System for 1923 which the Chairman and President of the Board of Directors, Sir Henry Thornton, has placed in my hands for presentation to parliament. Hon. gentlemen will appreciate that the first year's operation of the combined and consolidated system has been conducted under difficulties due to changes in management,
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
in location, in personnel and in administrative methods. The present management did not become wholly effective until May 1st, 1923, with the selection of Montreal as headquarters and the division of the immense territory covered by the system into separate regions for convenience of local administration and operation. This involved change of residence for the majority of the administrative and operative staffs, and the transfer and disturbance of records. All this tended to unsettlement, notwithstanding which the management has been able to build up a most effective operating machine, with an absence of friction and an esprit de corps that has resulted in an improvement of service that has been freely acknowledged by the patrons of the National lines.
While new methods have been required to cope with conditions involved by coordinated and consolidated management and operation, it has not, for various reasons, been possible to abandon corporate accounting and record. This also has tended to make difficult the earlier production of complete and detailed figures. However, I am now in a position to read to the House Sir Henry Thornton's first annual report of his stewardship, and that of his co-directors. It has been certified by the firm of auditors who conduct continuous audit of the books and accounts of the National System, and is in printed form, together with statistical detail. And when I lay the report on the Table of the House, before I sit down-as a matter of fact I have done this-copies of the report, with that of the Central Vermont separately printed, will be in the hands of the postal officials of the House and Senate for immediate distribution.
The report, which is dated May 1st, gives the steam operated mileage as 21,851 and divides it not only into regions but into mileage owned, mileage operated under lease or contract and mileage operated under trackage rights. Incidentally I may say that the report is accompanied by a very useful map which outlines the various operating regions in different colours.
Revenue and Expenses
The operating revenue for 1923 was $254,926,456, as compared with $234,059,025, in 1922 an increase of $20,867,431. The revenue is split into that derived from freight, from passenger, from mail and from miscellaneous services. All of these show increases with the exception of revenue from mails.
The working expenses for 1923 were $234,689,892, compared with $231,172,313, the previous year, an increase of $3,517,579. The

working expenses are also split to show the customary detail, and the net earnings were $20,236,563, in contrast with $2,886,711 in 1922, an increase of $17,349,851.54. The operating ratio was 92.06.
The foregoing is a summary of a full page of figures. I will now proceed to read Sir Henry Thornton's report:
Canadian National Railways-Sir Henry Thornton's Report
Gross Earnings
The increase in revenues is particularly gratifying, and speaks for itself. An excellent crop contributed materially to this satisfactory showing. The fundamental necessity	of the system is to	build	up its	grossearnings to such	a figure as will be	consistent in	somedegree with its large mileage, and every effort is being addressed to this objective. Freight and passenger traffic returns for the year both show a material improvement over the previous year. With the single exception of September, when the grain movement was somewhat retarded, each month's gross revenue has shown a satisfactory increase over the corresponding month of 1922. The financial performance of the system will turn very largely upon the constantly increasing gross	receipts, and the	board	notes	withsatisfaction the	zeal and energy	which the traffic
department and all in the service of the company have displayed in this direction.
Operating Expenses
A comparison of operating expenses shows that there was a reduction of $841,760 in expenses chargeable to maintenance of way and structures, and of $3,984,380 in those attributable to maintenance of equipment.
With respect to maintenance of way and structures, the saving was largely the result of the performance of work during that season of the year when its accomplishment involved a minimum cost both from the point of view of price of labour and interruptions from traffic. Considerable attention was also given to improvement of work and the maintenance of certain sections of the system at a standard consistent with the character of the traffic. Notwithstanding a reduction in maintenance of way and structures expenses, the general standard of the roadbed has not only been maintained, but an improvement has been accomplished.
The reduction in expenses chargeable to maintenance of equipment is largely due to the fact that in the year 1922 a deferred maintenance of equipment reserve was created by charges amounting to $4,490,000 whereas in 1923 charges under this heading amounted to $801,402. The difference in these charges in 1923 as compared with 1922, amounted to $3,688,598. All deferred maintenance of equipment charges, may now be considered as either having been overtaken or provided for in the above-mentioned reserve. The balance of the saving in maintenance of equipment expenses may be attributed to more economical working.
Arthur Meighen: Will the hon. gentleman permit a question there? Other members may understand the matter, but I do not. What is really the significance of the last two sentences about the change of the reserve from 1922 explaining the change in the equipment expenses?


George Perry Graham: There was, as I understand it, an equipment fund to catch up to what is termed deferred maintenance, that

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
is, maintenance that should have been paid for in the years before. This amount of $4,000,000 was set up as a reserve out of which to pay the deferred maintenance. As far as I understand it that is the explanation.
For the twelve months ended December 31, 1923, the average number of freight cars awaiting repairs represented 6.2 per cent of the total freight car equipment, as compared with an average of 8.2 per cent for what are termed " Class 1 " railways in the United States. With respect to locomotives awaiting repairs on the Canadian National Railways, the average figure for 1923 was 22.88 per cent, while for " Class 1 " American railways it was 21.35 per cent. From this it will be seen that the general condition of equipment on the Canadian National Railways was comparable with the better class railways across the border, and it is a reasonable deduction that expenses chargeable to maintenance of equipment are ample.
Transportation Expenses
Transportation expenses increased by $6,654,475 and absorbed 47.18 per cent of the gross earnings, as compared with 48.57 per cent in 1922, in the face of an increase in the gross earnings of $20,867,430. That is to say, gross earnings increased 8.9 per cent and expenses chargeable to moving the * traffic increased 5.8 per cent. While these figures are indicative of a healthy improvement, a fruitful field for* further reductions exists which will be cultivated with energy throughout the year 1924.
Transportation expenses vary with gross earnings, and the larger the volume of business the greater is the amount consumed in its movement. While such increases are inevitable the objective to be sought is a minimum increase in transportation expenses as gross receipts increase.
In the consideration of transportation expenses efficiency of organization plays a large part and it is fair to point out that the present transportation organization did not begin to function as an entity in all of its details until the latter part of the year. This is abundantly demonstrated by the fact that in the latter months of 1923 and the early months of 1924 the percentage of gross earnings absorbed by transportation expenses represented a constantly decreasing figure. It is not unreasonable to assume that these expenses in 1924 will show material improvement.
Traffic Expenses
Traffic expenses increased by $537,681. This was largely due to a more aggressive policy in the solicitation of business, advertising, and similar items. In view of the large increase in gross earnings, the increase in expenses chargeable to traffic is modest; indeed it is believed that a further increase in such expenses would be productive of a larger gross revenue. It is the intention of the administration actively to pursue this policy and, where an adequate return is assured, unhesitatingly to assume expense.
Prior to the consolidation certain expenditures required for developing traffic were postponed. These expenditures as well as those in connection with the new Colonization and Development Department were undertaken during the year and partly account for the increase in traffic expenses.
General Expenses
General expenses increased by $814,966. A large proportion of this was due to reorganization, the preparation and establishment of new offices, the moving of officers and employees to their new headquarters, much of which would naturally be expected
in the adjustment of the new organization and will not be recurrent. Increases in law expenses, including litigation costs, and pensions accounted for about half of the increase in general expenses.
Income Items
In an examination of the income statement, a decrease of $2,170,286 will be observed in total nonoperating income.
In 1922 substantial profits were made in exchange on purchase of sterling funds. In 1923 the profit was less by $1,000,000. In order to comply with the requirements of the Interstate Commerce Commission in connection with a settlement with the United States government for the guarantee period 1920 a debit of $1,457,562 was made against income account, with no corresponding entry for 1922. These two amounts were the main items producing the above decrease.
Might I point out here that when the United States government gave certain guarantees to the railways of the United States through what is known as the guarantee period, each railway was asked to present an account. I am told that the Grank Trunk and the Grand Trunk Western lines, in common with all the other lines in the United States, had not time to make out with any great accuracy a detailed report in 1920, but they put in their accounts an amount which they thought would cover what was due them under this guarantee. This year when the final accounts were adjusted it was discovered that the railways in the United States belonging to the Canadian National had an account that was top-heavy by $1,457,000. So that sum was charged against the income of the railway for 1923, although it is not really a proper charge for that account, but it had to be adjusted.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Had the
larger item been taken into income before, although not paid?


George Perry Graham: I think so.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is my hon.
friend clear about that? Of course, it would be quite improper to make the entry in this way unless that had been done.


George Perry Graham: I am told that the larger amount had been carried forward in the books of the company.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That is very
different from bringing it into income receipts.


George Perry Graham: But it brings about the
same net result whether it comes in by one door or 'the other.


Henry Lumley Drayton: In one case it
comes in, in the other it stays out.

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement


George Perry Graham: The railway had to debit this item of $1,457,000 against income account in connection with the readjustment with the United States government.
Perhaps it would not be out of place to mention light here another item which this year is paid by the railway or charged up to it, but which never came to the accounts before, namely, an item in connection with Grand Trunk Pacific interest. It will be remembered that under the contract with the Grand Trunk Pacific that road was relieved from the payment of interest in. respect of the mountain section for seven years, without recourse. The seven years have expired and this year that interest, amounting to $1,600,000, is charged up to the Canadian National Railways. If these two items of the expense charged this year to the Canadian National, and never heretofore charged, are deducted, a betterment will be shown of $3,000,000 in the Canadian National budget. After accounting for fixed charges and all increases the amount instead of being something over $6,000,000 is, with these two items considered, something over $9,000,000.


Arthur Meighen: May I get that clear?
Do I understand the minister to say that the Grand Trunk in respect of its contingent guarantee of Grand Trunk Pacific bond interest-


George Perry Graham: No, that is not it.


Arthur Meighen: Then I have not got it at all.


George Perry Graham: I will get it right: For the first seven years the interest was payable by the government, under the contract. That seven years has expired. Now the interest is payable by the Canadian National Railways having taken over the Grand Trunk Pacific.


Arthur Meighen: Did they pay it?


George Perry Graham: It is charged up in their debit account-


Arthur Meighen: But not paid.


George Perry Graham: It is not paid, but it is charged up against the Canadian National Railways. This is the first year it has been so charged, but I may say, to be fair, that it will have to be charged against the Canadian National Railways every year hereafter.


Arthur Meighen: And saved to the government.


George Perry Graham: The government paid it during the last seven years, but the government will not hereafter have to pay it, except as they meet deficits of the Canadian National Railways.
Hire of Freight Cars-Debit Balance
The assembling of cars for the western crop movement, and the inevitable delay resulting to coal cars used in accumulating a large reserve of fuel (which indications of a miners' strike made a proper precaution) necessarily resulted in a large increase in the amount paid to other carriers for use of cars. The results obtained, however, amply justified this course of action and the expenditure involved. Available car supply through this means was increased by 7.6 per cent. The service obtained per car per day was increased by 5.6 per cent, permitting additional freight tonnage to be handled, which, notwithstanding the lower average of freight rates, produced increased freight earnings of $15,457,000.
It is expected that still greater efficiency in car service will be obtained during the coming year, but this will not prevent a further increase in adverse per diem balance if revenue traffic continues to increase.
Balance Sheet
A consolidated balance sheet has been prepared which includes the capital accounts of the railways and subsidiary companies comprising the national system.
There are securities in the hands of the public of a total par value of $823,099,056. In addition to this, there is an amount expended by the government to construct and equip the Intercolonial and the Transcontinental, and to purchase various branches in the province of Quebec and in the Maritime provinces which form the old Canadian Government Railways, the capital investment and operations of which are duly set forth in the system consolidated balance sheet.
To those hon. members who possibly have mot had an opportunity of studying that question I may say that on the expenditure on government railways there has never been any interest charged.
As shown in the income statement, fixed charges for the year total $65,199,323, being an increase of $5,798,847 over 1922, practically all of which was on account of interest charged by the government. Of the total fixed charges mentioned above, $35,041,380 was paid to the public.
To make that clear, let me interpolate this: While the government has advanced many millions to the Canadian National. Railways, that interest is all taken into account, together with the interest due to the public, and it has been thought by some that the statement presented to the House from time to time by different governments included only the interest due the public and not the interest due the government. The statement as charged against t'he Canadian National Railways includes all the interest payable to the government and payable to the public as well.
Consideration is being given to the policy to be followed with respect to the capitalization of the system, and the extent to which, if at all, the advances

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
made and capital held by the government should be written down to a figure which may be regarded as consistent with the earning prospects of the railway. In the consideration of such a problem, the interests of the government, which is to say the people of Canada, must be given due weight. On the other hand it would seem unreasonable to burden the Canadian National Railways with a load which is beyond its conceivable earning capacity. The directors have this problem under consideration but before any definite recommendations can be made, a careful survey must be made of the capital position of the company, not only with a view to meeting the difficulty explained in this paragraph but also to simplifying and consolidating a variety of securities outstanding.
The following statement gives a concise picture of the
position:
Securities held by public	$ 823,099,056 10
Securities held by Dominion government	 33,048,000	00
Receiver's Certificates re Grand Trunk
Pacific	
53,177,668	18Loans from Dominion government including interest	
580,314,081	34Appropriations account Canadian Government Railways	
447,643,526	03Governmental grants in aid of construction	
16,204,520	40

Finance
Of the $74,550,000 voted by parliament for the fiscal year ended March 31st, 1924, there was advanced in cash by the government to the company $24,550,000, the balance being represented by the $50,000,000 of thirty-year 5 per cent guaranteed bonds issued in February, 1924. As of August 1st last an issue was made of $22,500,000 of the company's fifteen-year 5 per cent bonds guaranteed by the Dominion government, but additionally secured by $30,000,000 worth of equipment in connection with which the bonds were issued.


Mr. MACLEAN (York):: Are all the liabilities in now?


George Perry Graham: Each year the liabilities must increase, in one way, as against the increased earnings, as money is borrowed year by year either from the government or from the public.


William Findlay Maclean: That will be new money.


George Perry Graham: That will be new money, and an additional liability.


Mr. EULER:: And additional assets, too.


George Perry Graham: C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
this unit of earning up to a point approximately 75 per cent over the pre-war level. The series of reductions which began January 1, 1921, have substantially reduced this average so that in 1923 it stood at 0.980 or 32 per cent above the pre-war level. In contrast to this the average prices of labour, material and supplies prevailing in 1923 were somewhat in excess of 90 per cent over the pre-war scale.
The Canadian National railway system is the property of the people of Canada, and it is for the people, through their duly elected parliamentary representatives and the Board of Railway Commissioners, to determine what the freight and passenger rate policy of the Dominion in its relation to the Canadian National railway system shall be; but there is no way by which freight and passenger rates can be continually reduced and net earnings at the same time increased; and, moreover, restricted net earnings must inevitably mean additional taxes to provide for annual deficits. The administration of the Canadian National railways system is the trustee of the people's property. That administration cannot and has no desire to dictate policies, but it would be lacking in the [DOT]fulfilment of its public duties if it did not make these facts clear to the people of Canada.
Betterments
During the year important progress was made on the general improvement programme which has been carried on during the period of government control. The expenditures have been large, but have not been out of proportion to the corresponding expenditures made by other large systems on this continent, and the improved operating results could not have been obtained without such expenditures and the acquisition of additional rolling stock and motive power. The properties of the system have been brought up to a standard which will enable the handling of increased traffic in the future with normal expenditures, except so far as affected by new business developments.
To obtain proper results from operating as a single system lines which previously were in competition, it was necessary to build a number of connecting lines and cut-offs, the construction of which has permitted short and economical routing of traffic, joint use of terminals, stations, offices and other facilities with consequent reduction in operating expense, increased capacity for handling the volume of business and ability to give improved service to the public. During the period of improvement, various grade reductions have 'been undertaken; water supply, particularly in western 'Canada, has been greatly improved; terminals have been enlarged and modernized; some sections of the rrailway have been double-tracked; signals have been installed; a great many tie plates have been applied; heavier rails have been laid; bridges, trestles and [DOT]culverts have been strengthened, renewed or replaced *with permanent work; tie renewals have been brought up to a proper basis and a start has been made on the use of treated ties. Much ballasting has been undertaken, although much remains to be done. A number of station buildings have been constructed; some enlarged or replaced. Telegraph and telephone communications have been bettered.
In addition to the cars purchased, there were a number rebuilt, reinforced and in other ways improved. Various items of special equipment were applied to locomotives such as feed water heaters, automatic stokers, boosters, superheaters, etc., and a number of locomotives were converted or rebuilt. The gradual use of heavier power over the various lines as their physical condition permits, and as traffic is developed, tends more and more to efficient operation.
Land Sales
Conditions in the farming industry in western Canada are not yet such as encourage the ready sale of lands.

61,994 acres were sold in 1923 at an average price of $15.66 per acre, amounting to $970,952.	9,025 acres were
sold in 1922 at an average price of $16.67 per acre, amounting to $150,531.14.
When cancellations of purchase contracts are considered, the showing is still more favourable. In 1923 the cancellations represented 59,190 acres as against 114,056 acres in 1922. Fewer cancellations are expected in 1924.
Wages and Labour
Various demands were made by employees during the year for increases in wages and improvements in working conditions. Several requests for increases are under consideration at the present time. There was no loss of time by reason of strikes among the railways' employees during the year. General good feeling prevails in all classes.
The total expenditure for labour during the year chargeable to operating expenses was $136,463,470 representing 58.15 per cent of such expenses, as compared with 54.99 per cent in 1922.
Purchases and Stores
All purchases for the Canadian National Railways and subsidiaries, including the Canadian Government Merchant Marine, are under the jurisdiction of the Purchasing Department, with headquarters in Montreal. There are purchasing agents located in the various regions to handle local buying. In the work of the department is included the custody and distribution of stores and materials. The reclamation of material and the sale of scrap, through which very substantial savings are effected, also comes under the Purchasing and Stores Department.
Express
This service is now carried on by the railway company itself instead of by the express company. Economies and other advantages have resulted from the change. The gross express receipts and the expenses of the express department are included in the system's revenue and expense accounts, whereas, generally speaking, other railways show only the net earnings earned by transporting express matter.
The operations of the express department present a large and fruitful field which merits a progressive and aggressive policy. It is the intention of the Company during the coming year to expand the activities of the express department into foreign fields, not only with the view of securing a large volume of traffic, but also in the provision of travellers' cheques and various other financial arrangements necessary to the comfort and welfare of tourists.
Telegraphs
The Canadian National Telegraphs operate commercial telegraph lines throughout the Dominion west of Moncton, N.B., and have charge of the maintenance of all telegraph and telephone lines used for railway purposes.
Material improvement has been made in the efficiency of the telegraph department during the year. Better and more satisfactory offices have been provided at several places, the messenger service has been smartened and every effort is being made to provide a standard of service which will excite a greater business.
Insurance
The Insurance Department was reorganized in March, 1923, and placed under the control of a Director of Insurance. At the same time the Company decided to extend over the whole system the principle of selfinsurance which had previously been in effect to a limited extent on parts of the system. The wisdom of this policy has been amply justified, as although there was paid into the fund approximately $250,000 less than had previously been paid to underwriters, a surplus of $1,014,014 was accumulated from April 1st to December 31st.

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
This surplus together with the previous surplus amounted in the aggregate as of December 31st, 1923, to $3,133,735, practically all of which is invested in Dominion Government securities. The intention is to build up this fund as rapidly as possible.
An entirely new recording system has been devised, which results in a determination of the exact status of the insurance fund with respect to premiums and losses on the various classes of risks insured therein.
A fire prevention and inspection staff has been organized under the direction of a competent fire prevention engineer, and is concentrating its efforts towards a reduction in losses. Various other steps have been taken to reduce fire losses, and it is anticipated that within the next year the system will have a fire insurance, prevention and inspection system second to none.
Colonization and Development
During the past year the matter of immigration has been receiving very close attention in governmental and railway circles. Its success depends first, upon the choico of suitable immigrants; secondly, upon the suitable location of such immigrants; and, thirdly, upon the supervision and assistance of them till they become self-supporting. Having this in view it was decided to open in London, England, a special office under the jurisdiction of the Department of Colonization and Development. Dr. W. J. Black who, after many years of special experience in agriculture and immigration, held the position of Deputy Minister of Immigration at Ottawa, has been appointed European manager of such office. Prior to his leaving for England recently, special meetings were held in Montreal at which there were present representatives of the Dominion government, the national railways and allied steamship companies-the desire being to determine a policy of which all interested parties would approve, and which would be carried out in a spirit of co-operation.
The present work of colonization and development of natural resources is being carried on from centres such as Montreal, Winnipeg, Edmonton, London, England, and Paris, France, with branches at St. Paul, Seattle and Boston in the United States.


William Findlay Maclean: Was the Canadian Pacific in that?


George Perry Graham: It does not say so in
the present report, but the Canadian Pacific is engaged in exactly similar work, and I think there is a good deal of co-operation between the Canadian Pacific railway and the government lines.
It embraces advertising of lands and business opportunities, the distribution of information in the public press and by lectures, folders, pamphlets, maps, etc., the answering of inquiries, etc., advising and assisting incoming settlers in regard to choice of lands and the obtaining of employment. The work in the New England States has resulted in the repatriation of French Canadians in western Canada, Quebec and northern Ontario. Up to the present time satisfactory results have been produced in spite of the recent agricultural depression, but the more important part of the work done during the past year was the establishment of a suitable organization which will be able to assist in completing the work expected to result from the intensive immigration policy now being carried on and which includes the group settlement arrangements made with the Overseas Settlement Board.
The following represents the broad principles upon which it is intended to carry on with vigour the colonization work of the Canadian National Railway System.
1.	To influence the immigration and satisfactory settlement in Canada of the largest possible number of people of productive capacity which the country can absorb and assimilate;
2.	To contribute to the dissemination of information concerning the vast and extensive natural resources of the Dominion and the widespread opportunities for industrial development, so that capital may be attracted from other countries and invested where enterprise will be legitimately rewarded;
3.	To promote the land settlement of new Canadians under conditions that will ensure the maximum success in their farming operations and enable them to enjoy such social and religious institutions as are necessary to individual happiness and contentment;
4.	So to encourage improvement in agriculture that more diversified methods may be used in farming, and that crop, live stock and dairy production may be increased in accordance with market demands and prospects;
5.	To assist by organized effort in the immigration of young people of desirable type and character, especially from Great Britain, and in their placement in respectable rural homes, where they may become qualified to participate in constructive activities and acquire citizenship of distinct value to Canada;
6.	To aid in the development of new opportunities for service and to facilitate every effective means of selecting immigrants physically fit and anxious for work;
7.	To co-operate with the federal and provincial governments and business organizations throughout the Dominion in promoting all measures calculated to contribute toward an increase in immigration of adaptable people and in their settlement under the most favourable conditions possible.
Pensions
Various plans are now in effect on different parts of the system. A pension scheme for the whole system is under consideration and temporary arrangements are in effect on parts of the system which have not previously had a pension plan.
The total number of pensioners at December 31,
1923,	was 2,078, and the total amount paid for pensions in 1923 was $925,173.
First Aid
For many years this work was carried on over the lines of the Grand Trunk System. It will in future be undertaken on all the national lines. For this purpose a Director of Safety First and First Aid was appointed in general charge of the work in January,
1924.
Economics
In order that special consideration may be given to vaVious economic problems which arise from time to time in regard to operation and development matters, a Bureau of Economics was organized in March, 1923, as a special department.
Radio Department
A Radio department was organized during the latter part of 1923 under the control of a radio engineer and an assistant. The work undertaken during the year was largely experimental, and principally in connection with the operation of radio on moving trains. Various tests having been made and excellent results obtained, wireless receiving instruments are now being installed upon the principal transcontinental trains, and similar sets are being placed in a number of the company's hotels. It is the intention, in the introduction of radio telephony on the lines of the Canadian National railways, to provide a ready means of communication between the executive officers of the railway and the public, to advertise Canada and the Canadian National railways, to furnish entertainment to

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
passengers on long distance trains and guests at the company's hotels, and generally to make the service of the railway more attractive to the travelling and shipping public. But more important still is the desire to establish that human contact between the officers of the company and the employees which it is considered is essential to the maintenance of loyalty and efficiency. The company has arranged for wireless receiving sets to be procured by its employees at a reasonable price and on easy terms. Considerable advantage has already been taken of this, and in the course of a comparatively short time it is hoped that it will be possible for the executive officers of the company to address personally a large proportion of the employees in their own homes. As an advertising medium radio telephony is unsurpassed, and the administration believes that in the establishment of a radio department it has taken a unique and constructive step in railway operation.
Organization
When the present Board of Directors took charge of the property represented by the Canadian National Railway system, two separate organizations existed, namely the Grand Trunk Railway and the Canadian National Railways of that day. Within the limitations imposed by conditions much co-ordination had already been accomplished and many improvements and economies introduced. The administrative work performed by these two organizations laid the foundation for what was to follow, and the present Board desires to record its recognition of the valuable work performed by the boards of directors and officers of the previous organizations.
The task, however, of determining the organization best suited for the administration of so large a property, extending from the Atlantic to the Pacific and including telegraph and express companies, as well as a Merchant Marine, can only be characterized as formidable. All of the great railway systems of North America and Europe have been the result of decades of growth and development in which ample time was afforded for the development of an organization and the education and trial of those who have subsequently become trusted and capable officers. To a large degree the Board of Directors was obliged to evolve within a few months a consolidated organization appropriate to the needs of the widely-flung system committed to its charge. Officers were obliged to acquaint themselves not' only with the new territories, but with each other. New channels for the flow of reports and instructions had to be provided, a system of statistical information developed which would readily reveal the operating results of the various departments and the danger points to be guarded against and many other important details which will at once be apparent to those familiar with the organization of a large undertaking. It would be remarkable if the accomplishment of such a task were unaccompanied by mistakes; but if such mistakes have been made they have been of relatively small importance, and have not materially affected the general result for the year. No doubt as months go by errors will be detected and improvements made.
Perhaps the most gratifying feature of the year's operations has been the development of a fine spirit of loyalty, co-operation and pride in the undertaking amongst officers and employees alike. Much of the satisfactory financial performance has been due to this spirit. Those employees and officers of the company who come in contcat with the travelling and shipping public have assisted greatly in establishing an excellent feeling by their courtesy and attention to the patrons of the system. The principle that the passenger is always to be regarded as the guest of the company has been splendidly maintained by all.

The board has much pleasure in congratulating all in the employ of the company upon the efficiency of their efforts, and cordially thanks them for their loyal support.
While business and industrial conditions in their relation to and effect upon the national railway system in all sections of the Dominion have received thoughtful and sympathetic consideration, the position in the Maritime provinces seems to call for special comment.
In those provinces there appears to exist a feeling of disappointment and dissatisfaction in a way, which is not clearly revealed, that the provinces have not obtained that advantage from Confederation which they had been led to expect. The consideration of such a problem is obviously beyond the scope and responsibilities of the administration of the national railway system, but when dissatisfaction in any section of the Dominion reaches such proportions as to involve a possible effect upon the company's operations, it is desirable that at least some attention should be given and it is for this reason that the subject is mentioned in this report.
With a view to improving the position in the Maritime provinces, the efforts of the traffic department of the railway have been addressed in various directions, and as a result the sailings from the port of Halifax have been increased from 491 in 1922 to 768 in 1923. The Canadian National Railways recognize the importance of the ports of St. John and Halifax, and the useful part they should both play in the development of Canadian marine traffic. Nothing within reason will be left undone to promote increased business through these gateways. For some time there had been a differential of one cent per hundred pounds against the port of Halifax on export and import freight and this has been removed, Halifax being now on the same basis as all other Atlantic ports served by the Canadian National Railways. In addition to the removal of this differential, tariffs covering certain contemplated reductions of class rates are now in the course of preparation. These reductions in some cases will run as high as 15 per cent. During the past twelve months a revision of freight rates to and from Prince Edward Island has been completed, placing them on the same basis as is applicable to the mainland, while formerly a somewhat higher scale was applied. Certain other minor reductions in other freights were also made.
These matters are mentioned in order that it may be understood that the Canadian National Railways are, within the limits of their ability, endeavouring to do everything possible to better transportation conditions in the Maritime provinces. The recent visit to the Eastern provinces of a number of members of parliament from western Canada will, it is hoped, have a good effect in enabling the people from the extreme parts of Canada to become better acquainted with the difficulties which confront both eastern and western Canada.
The business done through the Canadian Atlantic ports is capable of much greater expansion, in the accomplishment of which expansion mutual under, standing between the eastern, western and central portions of Canada is essential. Several suggestions have been made to the Canadian National Railways management as to how this desired result might best be brought about, but as the province of the management of the railway system is to deal solely with transportation this large question of policy must be left to the government and to parliament.
Obituary Notices
As the^ preparation of this report was nearing completion the death occurred suddeuly in Montreal on 2nd April, 1924, of Mr. L. S. Brown, general manager of the Atlantic region, with office at

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Moncton, N.B. The board desires to express its regret at the death of Mr. Brown who was an esteemed and
capable officer.
It is fitting that reference should be made also to the recent death of Sir William Mackenzie who with Sir Donald Mann founded the Canadian Northern Railway system, aggregating nearly 10,000 miles. For two men to have established a transcontinental system in Canada was a feat unrivalled in the annals of railway construction in the world. Sir William Mackenzie had a genius for originating big projects and for financing. Apart from his development of other public utilities in different parts of Canada and elsewhere his work as a railroad builder in Canada entitles him to a high rank among the great men the Dominion has produced.
H. W. Thornton, Chairman and President.
Consolidated System Statements
In the report of Sir Henry Thornton as printed and distributed, part of which I have just read to the House, the following statements appear:
Consolidated balance sheet;
Profit and loss account;
Income statement, with detail;
Investment in road and equipment;
Improvements on leased properties;
Statement of equipment on hand;
Certain comparative statements dealing with costs of labour, fuel, etc.;
Statement of loans from the Dominion of Canada;
Statement of funded debt held by the public;
Rail line operating statistics;
Comparative statement of tonnage by commodities;
Report on Canadian National Telegraphs;
Report on Express Department;
Schedule of companies comprising the Canadian National railway system;
Investments in affiliated companies;
Statement of operated mileage at Dec. 31, 1923;
Statement of lines controlled by Canadian National Railways, not included in operating figures.
I am advised that the foregoing constitutes the most detailed report yet brought down as to operation of the Canadian National Railways.
Corporate Accounts
However, the President's report deals only with operation, and with Canadian National system lines. Therefore it falls to me, as Minister of Railways, to make reference to the year's activities from the standpoint of the various corporate entities, and to round out the story by the inclusion of the operating results of the Central Vermont, a separately operated railway controlled by majority stock ownership.
For this purpose I have been supplied by the management with three separate statements of income account, broken as follows :-
1.	Canadian National Railways-including Central Vermont-and showing operating results of:
(a) Lines ill Canada;
(b) Lines in the United States;
(c)	The Central Vermont.
2.	Canadian National Railways-lines in Canada:
(a)	Canadian National Railways, including the Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada;
(b)	Canadian Northern system;
(c)	Canadian Government Railways;
(d)	Grand Trunk Pacific Railway.
3.	Canadian National Railways-lines in the United States:
(a)	Grand Trunk lines in New England;
(b)	Grand Trunk Western lines;
(c)	Duluth, Winnipeg and Pacific.
It is not possible to read these reports in detail, nor would it seem to be necessary, as I have ready to lay on the Table for immediate use twenty copies in MS form, and will, with the permission of the House, hand a copy to Hansard to appear with the record of to-day's proceedings.
Net Results-All Lines
Summarizing these statements I may say that the gross operating revenue-including the Central Vermont-was $263,554,436 and the gross operating expenses $242,366,973, leaving the net revenue from operation-all lines-$21,187,462, compared with $3,993,237 in 1922. After the usual deductions and additions involved in taxes, rentals, hire of equipment, etc., the total income before fixed charges was $13,364,875, compared with $1,499,782 the previous year. Total fixed charges were 66,144,226 as against $60,196,693, in 1922, and the total deficit $52,779,350 compared with $58,696,911.
Those who examine the statements closely will see that the figures now given as for 1922 do not agree with the figures brought down a year ago. This does not mean that last year's figures were wrong. It has been difficult each year to compare current statements with the figures of previous years because the basis of comparison has been constantly changing as the National system gradually took shape. Thus the 1923 figures include the operation of certain companies, whose net only has heretofore been brought in. In order that the results of the two years may be comparable the 1922 figures have had to be recast and presented on the same basis as the 1923 form of accounting.
The consolidation of system lines has also involved a change in dealing with fixed charges. Last year's statement of interest was followed by a footnote explaining that the figures included certain obligations of one company to another. This year there is a footnote to the effect that the principal intercorporate transactions have been eliminated. These inter-corporate interest charges are now [DOT] treated as purely internal matters, being in-

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
terest due neither the public nor the government, but items capable of being offset in inter-corporate accounts.
Fixed charges and deficit
The fixed charges of the railways now comprising the Canadian National system, including the Central Vermont, increased from $60,196,693 to $66,144,226 during the year. Of this increase of $5,947,533 in fixed charges $5,409,791 was in interest due the government. I may be asked right here how this can be accounted for when the government last year advanced only a comparatively small amount of money. The answer is evident. The interest charged this year is the interest of the year previous; that is to say, the interest would not become due until the following year; and the interest on money secured in
1923,	borrowed from either the government or the public, will appear in the accounts of
1924.
The total deficit for the year, after all charges, was $52,779,350, compared with $58,696,911 for 1922, as recast for purposes of comparison. Of last year's deficit of $52,779,350, $48,978,595 is attributable to Canadian lines, and $3,800,754 to American mileage.
The Canadian deficit of $48,978,594 was apportioned as follows:
Canadian National Railways, including the
Grand Trunk in Canada	$	985,016
Canadian Northern System	 35,956,906
Canadian Government Railways	 215,943
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	 11,820,729
The American deficit of $3,800,775 was made up as follows:
Grand Trunk New England lines	$2,562,968
Grand Trunk Western lines, a surplus of.. 36,153 Duluth, Winnipeg and Pacific Railway.. ..	192,264
Central Vermont Railway	 1,081,675
I have indicated a net operating surplus of $21,187,462 for 1923. Of that sum $11,656,462 was earned by Canadian lines, and $9,530,999 by American lines, including the Central Vermont. But after non-operating adjustments and fixed charges, the final result of the American operation was the 'net deficit of $3,800,775 above referred to. An operating surplus of $8,791,808, on Grand Trunk Western lines, was reduced finally to $36,153. The decrease in non-operating income referred to by Sir Henry Thornton, due to the final settlement with the United States government being less than anticipated, affected principally the Grand Trunk Western lines. This is the item I explained some time ago. Notwithstanding this, however, the Grand Trunk Western lines converted a net deficit of $1,388,529 in 1922 into the net surplus of $36,153, referred to.
rMr. Graham.]


Arthur Meighen: These are Grand Trunk Western lines that are mainly in the United States?


George Perry Graham: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: They have no reference to western Canada?


George Perry Graham: No this is the appellation given to lines in the United States west of Detroit. These Grand Trunk Western lines are most important feeders of the Canadian National system, and may be counted on to demonstrate their usefulness as such. Unfortunately both the New England hues and the Central Vermont materially increased their net deficits, the former by $1,174,438 and the latter by $344,861.
It will be noted, on examination of the figures, that in 1922 the railways-and by this I mean all lines, including the Central Vermont-hud $1,499,782 with which to meet interest charges of $35,125,736 due the public In 1923, these fixed charges due the public were $35,539,668, and towards meeting them the railways themselves were able to provide $13,364,875-an improvement of twelve millions in round figures.
There will, of course, be an increase in fixed charges due the public in so far as the public may provide capital requirements during the next few years. Correspondingly, it is not unreasonable to expect a gradual expansion in the trade and commerce of the country, in which the Canadian National Railways may be expected to share; so that if Sir Henry Thornton is able to maintain the same rate of improvement as he has achieved during the first year of his presidency, the Railways themselves, in addition to meeting their operating charges, ought to be able, within a very few years, to meet all interest charges due the public, which would be a wonderful achievement.
Grand Trunk Pacific Debenture Holders
I come now to the Grand Trunk Pacific debenture holders. This is a matter that has been of considerable interest and it is one that is rather involved. I trust the House will bear with me while I explain it briefly. During the construction of the Grand Trunk Pacific which, although a separate company, was really a subsidiary of the Grand Trunk, the Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada, conditionally, guaranteed certain bonds known as 4 per cent debenture stock bonds. They were guaranteed conditionally, I say, the condition being that the interest was to be paid on these debentures by the Grand Trunk,

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
if the Grand Trunk Pacific failed to pay, but only provided the Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada earned the money. For very many years, however, the Grand Trunk did not earn the money, nor has it earned it all yet. This interest as against the Grand Trunk Company is not cumulative, whereas, as against the Grand Trunk Pacific, it is cumulative. f just want to make this explanation before I present to the House the succeeding statements. When the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King), the Minister of Justice (Mr. iLapointe), and myself were in London last year we were waited upon by the Grand Trunk Pacific four per cent debenture holders, who presented a strong case from their point of view. We maintained that the taking over of the Grand Trunk System by the Canadian National Railway Company improved, rather than proved detrimental to, the position of jthe Grand Trunk Pacific debenture holders inasmuch as, under the conditions that previously obtained, the Grand Trunk could never have hoped to earn sufficient net revenue to pay anything on the Grand Trunk Pacific four per cent debenture stock. And it was questionable, we pointed out, whether the position would not have been worse than that jn a few years. However, I am advised by the .management that there will be available this year $322,803 for partial payment of last year's interest on these Grand Trunk Pacific securities. This is not a big sum in view of the fact that the interest amounts to $1,395,170 a year, but it is, I hope, an augury for the future.
The Estimates
( I would now like to deal briefly with the estimates. Last year our total vote on railway account was $75,325,432; this year we are asking for $56,187,125 distributed as follows:- Interest on securities, notes and other obligations; also rentals for lease of lines.. $18,745,639
Equipment principal payments, sinking funds, miscellaneous maturing or matured notes, and other obligations secured or
unsecured	 5,867,633
Operating income deficits, [DOT]wherever incurred
or ascertained	 1,467,138
Construction and betterments, including coordination, acquisition of property and
purchase of	equipment	 29,919,588
Departmental	 187,125

Operating Deficits
I shall now take up operating deficits, and to hon. gentlemen from the Maritime provinces and those who are interested in the government-owned railways, the items I am about
to read will be interesting. The following is a comparison of last year's appropriations for operating deficits with actual results:-
	Appropriations	Actual Deficit
Canadian	Northern Railway	
System.	
$2,500,000	$2,609,354Grand Trunk Pacific	
4,500,000	3,238,126Canadian	Government Rail-	ways..	
3,000,000	170,639
I would like to show just how this marked improvement in operation of former government railways is made up, but am advised it is no longer possible to get an apportionment of revenues and expenditures on the various lines comprising the former Canadian government railways. However, I am informed that the improvement was directly attributable to increased business. Last year the operating revenues of Canadian government railways increased by $3,897,000, while operating expenses also increased by $1,561,000. Of the increase in revenue, freight traffic accounted for $2,224,000. The passenger traflac increase was $1,669,000.
Of the increased operating expenses $645,000 was due to removing snow, ice and sand, due to bad weather conditions during the first three months of 1923. A further increase of $237,000 represents premiums, due to the fact that the Government Railways properties were not insured prior to May 1, 1923. The balance of increase was entirely due to increased operating expenses because of increased business.
If the House will bear with me, I will explain that point. Heretofore the property of the Canadian Government Railways had not been insured. Some years ago an insurance fund was established on the Intercolonial railway when I had the honour of being Minister of Railways before, a certain amount being laid away every year to provide against fire. If my memory serves me correctly, that fund more than provided for all fire losses during those years. Let me make a further explanation. That was the only way of accomplishing the purpose, for under our system of voting supplies to Canadian government railways- the requirements had to be voted in their entirety, while the receipts had to be handed over to the Receiver General. By establishing the fund I have referred to, the management was able to add to it each year and the money did not have to go back into the hands of the Receiver General. Under the present system the property of the Canadian Government Railways is insured as well as the railway property of the company lines, and the Canadian Government Railways are charged their proportion of the premiums for

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
the insurance on their own lines. I will read that paragraph again in the face of this explanation:
Of the increased operating expenses, $645,000 was due to removing snow, ice and sand, due to bad weather conditions during the first three months of 1923. A further increase of $237,000 represents premiums, due to the fact that the Government Railways properties were not insured prior to May 1, 1923. The balance of increase was entirely due to increased operating expenses because of increased business.
Or might I say, in other words, that if the Canadian Government Railways had not paid insurance premiums last year into the insurance fund they would have had a good balance to their credit on operating account.
It is well to bear in mind that the Canadian Government Railway lines, operation of which is reflected above, extend all the way from the Atlantic to Winnipeg, whereas the very adverse operating ratio of 123.23 has to do with the Atlantic region only, the western boundary of which is at Riviere du Loup on the former Intercolonial and Monk on the former Transcontinental line.
This year the only provision for operating deficit-I am speaking now of this year's estimates presented to the House-is $1,467,138 on Grand Trunk Pacific account. Four years ago, in 1920, the combined operating deficit of the three above mentioned roads was $36,842,970; in 1921, $16,092,901; 1922, $9,736,318 and, last year, $6,018,119. It is the long view that brings out clearly the gradual improvement in our railway situation and offers encouragement to every friend of government operation and control. This improvement is very clearly seen by a backward glance over our railway requirements of recent years. Parliament voted the following sums for railway purposes in the years named:
Fiscal year	Voted
1920-	21	$106,708,8271921-	22	
179,117,1651922-	23	
111,069,4931923-	24	
75,325,432
However, the amounts voted do not .tell all the story, as there were expenditures by order of the Exchequer court on Grand-Trunk Pacific account, and there were guaranteed bond issues which, in some years were in addition to the vote and in other years reduced the amounts to be supplied under the vote. And it so happened in 1922-23, when there were no guarantees, the vote itself happily proved to be materially in excess of actual requirements. Thus including votes, cash payments and guarantees, the
IMr. Graham.]
figures for the last four complete fiscal years are as follows:-
Total expenditure Fiscal year	on -railway account
1920-	21	$173,620,2691921-	22	
179,117,1651922-	23	
84,960,0371923-	24	
96,610,129
The last named figure represents the vote of last session, plus an equipment trust issue of $22,500,000, guaranteed under statutory authority. This year it is expected there will be required an equipment trust issue of about nine millions. Adding this to the current estimate the total -requirement, as at present anticipated, is sixty-five -millions, compared with the ninety-six millions for the previous year-an improvement of thirty-one millions. Let me make an explanation here. Any loan outside the equipment issue will come within the vote of $56,000,000. I do not want any misunderstanding. It will not be added to the vote passed by the House.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Nor added to the debt?


George Perry Graham: I will let the ex- and the present Finance Minister fight that out.
There is a question here in connection with equipment issues, and I am going to throw out this hint for the consideration of the House. Equipment issues do not come under the vote -made by parliament. The security given in rolling stock for these issues see-ms to me to be ample, and to my mind it is questionable if the government ought to be asked to guarantee such issues. I am not saying that it will not, but I want to throw out this suggestion for members to ponder; I have been giving it some study and have not quite made up my own mind in regard to it. Equipment issues are secured on the -rolling stock purchased, but the security is more than the value of the equipment issues, for the reason that parliament votes 25 per cent in money towards the purchase of the equipment and the security is issued for only 75 per cent of that equipment, less expenses. So, outside the government guarantee altogether the security given to the investor in equipment issues is to my mind ample, and I say again that, to me, it is very questionable whether the government ought to be asked to guarantee such issues. Other railways without any similar guarantee sell their issues at a fairly good price.


Mr. STEVENS:: Is the term of those bonds kept well within the life of the equipment?

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement


George Perry Graham: Yes. The bonds are
issued on what is known as the Philadelphia plan, under which the amount is amortized, paid off in annual instalments which redeem the bonds within the supposed life of the equipment. This year you will find in the figures an amount payable on equipment bonds of some millions of dollars charged up to the railway.


Henry Herbert Stevens: With the added guarantee of the government does the Canadian National Railway get a better rate on equipment issues than other railways in a similar position?


George Perry Graham: Well, that is a debatable question, and I would not like to give an answer right out in meeting. I will, however, give this answer, which I think is safe: it seems to me that in Canada the investor will give you a better price if you have the government's guarantee; I am not sure it applies to any other market. My information is that you can secure money say in New York at practically the same rate without the government guarantee, as they understand thoroughly the whole working of what is known as the Philadelphia system.
Capital Expenditures Justify Themselves
Sir Henry Thornton makes it clear that restriction of maintenance had no part in the improved results obtained in the year under review. The amount of money required to put the Canadian National system in good shape has been large, but not unduly so when the mileage involved is taken into account. But for these capital expenditures on road and equipment the improved performance now in evidence would not have been possible. The money which is spent last on a railway is held to be the most profitable investment on account of the definite knowledge then available as to where to spend it, and the operating officials of the Canadian National Railways feel that without the capital expenditures of the last five years the National system, as at present constituted, would not have paid operating expenses this year. Lacking these vital expenditures the system would be entirely inadequate, with transportation facilities limited, and in no position to play a proper part in the development of the country.
Now I come to a matter which I would like to place before the House. The only object of the government, the only object, I believe, of parliament as a whole, is if possible to make this great enterprise a success. It is ours; it belongs to the people; we have our money in it. I have thought for some time and my colleagues agree with me, that
it would be wise to make some additions to the Canadian National Railway Board. The present members of the board, representing different districts and scattered as they are all over Canada, bring to their work valuable information with regard to conditions throughout the country generally and bring to it, besides, remarkable ability. But the fact remains that the Canadian National Railway Board as at present constituted is under somewhat of a handicap in this respect. Large private companies have an executive within easy distance of their head office who can be called in at a few hours' notice to deal with any question of importance. There is scarcely a day, surely not a week, that there does not arise in connection with the management of the Canadian National Railways some question of magnitude, something of great importance not only to the railways themselves but to -the people of Canada as shareholders. I have suggested to my colleagues, and the suggestion has met with unanimous approval, that we ought to appoint an additional number of directors- as we have several vacancies-within easy access of the head office, out of which the president could form a strong executive of business men who would be at his disposal at a few hours' notice at any time to deal with these large questions as they arise.


William Daum Euler: How many more?


George Perry Graham: Well, I have hardly made up my mind as definitely as that. It would depend on what is thought to be the right number who would be available for a strong executive. Under the by-laws of all railway companies there are certain things with which the presidents and officials themselves deal, and there are other questions with which they do not deal without consulting the executive. I believe the House and the people generally will agree with me in the view that the addition to the board of a few members- I do not yet know how many-will be in the interests of the company and in the interests of the people of Canada-persons within hailing distance of the head office who can be called in for consultation as a strong executive.


Mr. KENNEDY (Edmonton):: What does the minister mean by "within hailing distance?"


Andrew Ross McMaster: Talk to them on the
radio.


George Perry Graham: I should say that a man
who could be called to-night on the telephone

CJV.fi!.-Minister's Statement
and be at the Canadian National offices in the morning would be within hailing distance. I do not want to give an operating reason; I do not want to be committed to one.


Mr. MANION:: Does the minister mean
he would do away with the other members of the board in other parts of the country, or would he retain them and add to them a quorum say in a certain city or in a certain section of the country, located within what he calls hailing distance?


George Perry Graham: I have no idea of suggesting that the other members of the board representing districts throughout Canada, who bring special information of a local nature to their work, should be removed or dispensed with. The idea is that there should be a sufficient number within a short distance of the head office who could be called upon by the president for executive work.


Mr. ANDERSON:: How many directors
are there now?


Mr. CAMPBELL:: Would that not throw
into the hands of a certain section of the country too much power or too much control of the National Railways, which would not be a desirable thing?


George Perry Graham: One at a time, please.
You would have to depend on the ability and the fairness of the men selected. We have every reason to believe that men can be selected for that position who will look on the Canadian National work as a patriotic work, not as one upon which they should bring any personal views to bear. Of course, the representatives from various parts of Canada would be at the regular meetings of the board as usual. I am only recommending something which has already -been put into operation by every great railway company.


Robert King Anderson: Would the minister
answer my question now? How many directors are there on the board?


George Perry Graham: If I remember correctly
there are nine now, and the Canadian National Railway Act provides for fifteen-that is my recollection.
I have laid on the Table of the House correspondence and papers in connection with the Paris building. I had intended to discuss that to-day, but I have already occupied a good deal of time. I want to make a suggestion. When the discussion of this part of the railway estimates comes before tiie Committee of the Whole, if it be found by 
hon. members that the minister is not capable of giving them the detailed information they think they could get or might possibly get from officials or other sources, and it is suggested that a special committee be appointed to bring out those details, the government will have no objection to that.
Before concluding I want to make an appeal to the House. As I said before, parliament desires only to make a success of this great enterprise. That can only be done by the cooperation of parliament; it can only be done by the sympathetic co-operation of parliament. This is the business of all the people of Canada, and we, representing them, hope to continue to carry it on in a way that will merit the confidence of parliament. A few weeks ago my good friend Mr. Beatty of the' Canadian Pacific Railway Company, speaking at their annual meeting, referred to a disadvantage under which his private company operated in Canada and mentioned in that connection a certain section of the Canadian National Railway Act. That section provides that the location of lines shall be subject to the Minister of Railways, while in the case of the Canadian Pacific the location of lines is subject to the Board of Railway Commissioners. Mr. Beatty complained that that was an advantage to the Canadian National and consequently a disadvantage to the Canadian Pacific. I might name another advantage which perhaps the Canadian National has and to which reference was made a few moments ago, namely that the people of Canada and the resources of Canada are behind it in the guarantee of its securities. I do not know why that section was put in the Canadian National Railway Act. I suppose those who framed it must have had some good reason for putting it in. But granted there is a disadvantage, I submit that under present conditions the disadvantage of a private company in Canada in these two respects could be multiplied by one hundred and then would not be comparable with the disadvantage under which the Canadian National Railways operate.
Let me put this to you-I am talking very frankly: Suppose Mr. Beatty's shareholders met and stayed in session four or five months every year; suppose every day a portion of his staff was compelled to be taken from their work to answer all kinds of questions; suppose that Mr. Beatty-I mean the president of any private company-were accused of all kinds of things; suppose that among his shareholders there was a large number who made no bones about declaring him and his board of management incompetent; what would Mr. MAY 28, 1924
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Beatty do? He would resign in five minutes. He could not operate without the confidence of his directors, through his shareholders.
Suppose, in addition, that Mr. Beatty was compelled to answer a question like this: Why was John Smith put off the road as gatekeeper in such and such a township? Who bought the uniforms for officials and employees of the Canadian Pacific Railway? Prom whom were they bought, how much was paid for them and who got them? I am not trying to indulge in ridicule, but I am tiying to point out the situation. I want to make it clear that under the present system of government, every member of this House has the technical right to ask all these questions, and more too. Do not misunderstand me. Every member of this House has the right to know where every dollar goes, who gets it, and what he gets it for, no matter what the detail is; that is his technical right. But I appeal to the members of the House if the Canadian National Railways can be run successfully if those rights are exercised to the limit?
I am anxious, as the mouthpiece of the Canadian National Railways, to give all the information possible, but I appeal to members that if we are going to make a success of this great enterprise, we must allow it to function approximately under the same conditions as a private company. Parliament itself has changed the conditions in this coum-try. Not the government, but the people of Canada through parliament have entered upon a gigantic scale of railway operation. Now if they wish to make a success of this enterprise upon which they have engaged, I appeal again to the members of the House to think seriously whether they should not forego what is their technical right of asking for information that never would be given to a shareholder, and much of which would never be
given to a director. I am a shareholder of some companies, and I am a director of some, or have been, and I know that when the directors meet, the shares are represented by the men sitting around the table nine times out of ten, and very often no information except what is printed is given to any shareholder. I do not say that is right, but I do say that when the Parliament of Canada has passed an act establishing a company to operate their property, and it is the greatest railway transportation property in the world, they should give it approximately the same rights as are given by the shareholders of a private company in which they have put their own money.
I believe that this system can be made a success. I believe that with careful operation, with close scrutiny, and with business acumen, in a very few years the Canadian National Railways will be able to meet its obligations to the public. When that is done, a great step has been taken, and after that, if it be possible, its obligations to the government can be gradually recognized.
I do not think, Mr. Speaker, I can say anything more, but I appeal to the members of the House, in dealing with their own property, to give the men they have engaged to manage the property a square deal, and a deal comparable to that whicT, would be given to them by shareholders who had put up the money out of their own pockets into a private company.
I wish to ask the privilege of the House to put on Hansard, without reading it, this statement respecting the Canadian National Railways, including the Central Vermont Railway.


Hewitt Bostock: By unanimous consent.
The tabulated statements referred to by Mr. Graham are as follows:
CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS (Including Central Vermont)
Income Account
Years ending December 31,1923 and 1922
Gross Operating Revenue
1922
Canadian National Railways Lines in Canada	 $ 216,578,175 89 $
Canadian National Railways Lines in United States	 38,348,280 15
203,062,344 65 30,996,680 40
Total Canadian National Railways	 $ 254,926,456 04
Central Vermont Railway	 8,627,980 41
8	234,059,025 05
7,626,626 19
Total,
$ 263,554,436 45 $	241,685,651 24
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement

CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS (Including Central Vermont)-Continued Income Account-Continued Years ending December 31, 1923 and 1922 Gross Operating Expenses
Canadian National Railways Lines in Canada	
Canadian National Railways Lines in United States	. $	1923 204,921,713 26 29,768,179 69	$	1922 205,572,978 49 25,599,335 01Total Canadian National Railways	
Central Vermont Railway	. $	234,689,892 95 7,677,080 80	%	231,172,313 50 6,520,100 62Total	$	242,366,973 75	$	237,692,414 12Net Revenue or Deficit from Railway Operations	Canadian National Railways Lines in Canada	
Canadian National Railways Lines in United States	. 8	11,656,462 63 8,580,100 46	$	2,510,633 84 5,397,345 39Total Canadian National Railways	
Central Vermont Railway	. S	20,236,563 09 950,899 61	S	2,886,711 55 1,106,525 57Total	8	21,187,462 70	$	3,993,237 12Tax Accruals, Uncollectible Revenues and Miscellaneous Operations	Canadian National Railways Lines in Canada	
Canadian National Railways Lines in United States	8	2,701,407 43 1,261,916 85	$	2,678,118 85 1,436,101 04Total Canadian National Railways	
Central Vermont Railway	$	3,963,324 28 243,696 02	$	4,114,219 89 225,150 49Total	*	4,207,020 30	$	4,339,370 38Total Operating Income or Deficit	Canadian National Railways Lines in Canada	
Canadian National Railways Lines in United States	$	8,955,055 20 7,318,183 61	$	5,188,752 69 3,961,244 35Total Canadian National Railways	
Central Vermont Railway	$	16,273,238 81 707,203 59	$	1,227,508,34 881,375 08Total	$	16,980,442 40	$	346,133 26Non-Operating Income	Canadian National Railways Lines in Canada	
Canadian National Railways Lines in United States	$	8,390,581 69 505,500 21	$	8,877,050 73 1,178,317 10Total Canadian National Railways	
Central Vermont Railway	$	7,885,081 48 124,391 39	$	10,055,367 83 [DOT] 137,5-54 88Total	8	8,009,472 87	s	10,192,922 71Deductions from Gross Income	Canadian National Railways Lines in Canada	
Canadian National Railways Lines in United States	$	2,040,542 38 8,616,128 90	$	411,243 21 6,976,237 95Total Canadian National Railways	
Central Vermont Railway	8	10,656,671 28 968,368 34	$	7,387,481 16 959,526 28Total	$	11,625,039 62	8	8,347,007 44
N.B.-Italics indicate deficits.
IMr. Graham.!

CM.R.-Minister's Statement
CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS (Including Central Vermont)-Concluded Income Account-Concluded
Years ending December 31. 1923 and 1922
Total Income or Deficit before Fixed Charges
Canadian National Railways Lines in Canada....
Canadian National Railways Lines in United States.
Total Canadian National Railways	
Central Vermont Railway	
Total	
Fixed Charges
Canadian National Railways Lines in Canada:-
Interest due Public	
Interest due Government	
Canadian National Railways Lines in United States:- Interest due Public	
Canadian National Railways	
Central Vermont Ry., due Public	
"	" due Can. Nat. Rys	
Total C.N.R. and C.V.Ry
Total Deficit
Canadian National Railways Lines in Canada	
Canadian National Railways Lines in United States.
Total Canadian National Railways	
Central Vermont Railway	
Total Deficit	
	1923		1922
. $	15,305,094 51 1,80S, US SO	$	3,277,054 83 1,836,676 SO. $	13,501,649 01 136,773 86	.$	1,440,378,33 59,403 68*	13,364,875 65	$	1,499,782 01.. S	34,125,745 92 30,157,943 67	$	33,723,877 40 24,748,151 73%	64,283,689 59	$	58,472,029 13$	915,634 36	$	928,446 98.. $	65,199,323 95	$	59,400,476 1 '498,287 61 446,614 78	473,411 80 322,806 07$	944,902 39	$	796,217 873	66,144,226 34	$	60,196,693 98.. $	7,8,978,595 08 2,719,079 86	$	55,197,, 977, SO 2,765,123 7,8.. $	51,697,677, 97, 1,081,675 75	$	57,960,097 78 736,817, 19.. S	52,779,360 69	$	58,696,911 97
Note.-In the above Statements the principal inter-corporate transactions have been eliminated. N.B.-Italics indicate deficits.
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS

[Stage Direction]
Schedule A. 1.
Lines in Canada
Income Account
Years Ending December 31st, 1923 and 1922
Gross Operating Revenue
Canadian National Rys. (Inc. G.T.R. in Can.)	$
Canadian Northern Railway System	
Canadian Government Railways	
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	
90,467,437 52 $ 60,542,307 39 44,837,053 01 20,731,377 97
83,633,964 08 59,152,070 12 40,939,945 76 19,336,364 69
Canadian National Rys. Lines in Canada.
216,578,175 89

[Stage Direction]
Gross Operating Expenses
Canadian National Rys. (Inc. G.T.R. in Can.)	$	72,792,855 00 $
Canadian Northern Railway System	 63,151,661 98
Canadian Government Railways	 45,007,692 28
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	 23,969,504 00
75,926,665 67 62,468,047 72 43,436,667 67 23,741,597 43
Canadian National Rys. Lines in Canada.
$	204,921,713 26
$	205,572,978 49
Net Revenue or Deficit from Railway Operations
Canadian National Rys. (Inc. G.T.R. in Can.)	$	17,674,582 52
Canadian Northern Railway System	 2,609,354 59
Canadian Government Railways	 170,639 27
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	 3,238,126 03
Canadian National Rys. Lines in Canada	$	11,656,462 63
$	7,707,298 41
3,315,977 60 2,496,721 91 4, 405,232 74
$	2,510,633 84
Tax Accruals, Uncollectible Revenues and Miscellaneous Operations
Canadian National Rys. (Inc. G.T.R. in Can.)	$	1,338,486 21 $
Canadian Northern Railway System	 972,864 60
Canadian Government Railways	 41,320 03
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	 348,736 59
1,352,401 01 1,048,070 60 29,744 02 247,903 22
Canadian National Rys. Lines in Canada,
$	2,701,407 43
$	2,678,118 85
Total Operating Income or Deficit
Canadian National Rys. (Inc. G.T.R. in Can.)	$	16,336,096 31 $
Canadian Northern Railway System	 3,582,219 19
Canadian Government Railways	 211,959 SO
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	 3,586,862 62
6,354,897 40 4,364,048 20 2,526,465 99 4,658,135 96
Canadian National Rys. Lines in Canada,
$	8,955,055 20 $	5,188,752 69
Non-Operating Income
Canadian National Rys. (Inc. G.T.R. in Can.)	$
Canadian Northern Railway System	
Canadian Government Railways	
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	
4,670,778 53 $ 2,984,110 76 607,888 15 127,804 25
4,747,163 74 3,143,297 58 843,298 38 143,291 03
Canadian National Rys. Lines in Canada.
$	8,390,581 69
$	8,877,050 73
Deductions from Gross Income
Canadian National Rys. (Inc. G.T.R. in Can.)	$
Canadian Northern Railway System	
Canadian Government Railways	
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	
1,812,863 19 $ 1,139,462 47 611,872 11 1,523,655 39
73,424 57 648,968 95 1,227,490 38 1,538,640 69
Canadian National Rys. Lines in Canada,
[Stage Direction]
2,040,542 38
$	411,243 21
N.B.-Italics indicate deficits.
IMr. Graham.)

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS Lines in Canada-Concluded Income Account-Concluded Years Ending December 31st, 1923 and 1922
Total Income or Deficit Before Fixed Charges
		1923		1922
Canadian National Rys. (Inc. G.T.R. in Can.)	
Canadian Northern Railway System	
Canadian Government Railways	
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	...$	19,194,011 65 1,737,570 90 315,943 26 1,935,402 98	$	11,028,636 57 1,869,719 57 2,910,657 93 2,971,204 24Canadian National Rys. Lines in Canada	$	15,305,094 51	$	3,277,054 83Fixed Charges	Canadian National Rys. (Inc. G.T.R. in Can.):- Interest due the Public	
Interest due the Government	...*	14,179,129 26 5,999,898 75	$	13,772,127 35 4,745,762 51S	20,179,028 01	s	18,517,889 96Canadian Northern Railway System:- Interest due the Public	
Interest due the Government	...*	15,517,659 58 18,701,675 52	$	16,388,829 55 15,796,371 96s	34,219,335 10	s	32,185,201 51Grand Trunk Pacific Railway:- Interest due the Public	
Interest due the Government	
Interest on Receivers' Certificates	4,428,957 08 2,823,801 42 2,632,567 98	$ $	3,562,920 50 2,070,535 53 2,135,481 63$	9,885,326 48	s	7,768,937 66Canadian National Rys. Lines in Canada...	$	64,283,689 59	$	58,472,029 13Total Deficit	Canadian National Rys. (Inc. G.T.R. in Can.)... Canadian Northern Railway System	
Canadian Government Railways	
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	...*	985,016 36 35,956,906 00 215,943 26 11,820,729 46	s	7,489,253 39 34,054,921 08 2,910,657 93 10,740,141 90Canadian National Rys. Lines in Canada	.. t	48,978,595 08	$	55,194,974 30
N.B.-Italics indicate deficits.
[Stage Direction]


C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS Lines in the United States
Income Account
Years ending December 31st, 1923 and 1922
Gross Operating Revenue
Grand Trunk Lines in New .England	 *$	3,515,000 00 $
Grand Trunk Western Lines	 32,471,522 74
Duluth, Winnipeg & Pacific Railway	 2,361,757 41
3,123,182 90 25,875,124 65 1,998,372 85
Canadian National Railways in U.S
$	38,348,280 15
$	30,996,680 40
Gross Operating Expenses
Grand Trunk Lines in New England	$	4,006,702 84
Grand Trunk Western Lines	 23,679,714 70
Duluth, Winnipeg & Pacific Railway	 2,081,762 15
$	3,180,273 38
20,527,991 87 1,891,069 76
Canadian National Railways in U.S.
29,768,179 69
%	25,599,335 01
Net Revenue or Deficit from Railway Operations
Grand Trunk Lines in New England	
Grand Trunk Western Lines	
Duluth, Winnipeg & Pacific Railway	$	491,702 84 8,791,808 04 279,995 26	$	57,090 48 5,347,132 78 107,303 09Canadian National Railways in U.S	$	8,580,100 46	$	5,397,345 39Tax Accruals, Uncollectible Revenues and Miscellaneous Operations	Grand Trunk Lines in New Egnland	
Grand Trunk Western Lines	
Duluth, Winnipeg & Pacific Railway	.8	196,809 00 946,068 69 119,039 16	$	199,629 38 1,131,113 17 105,358 49Canadian National Railways in U.S	8	1,261,916 85	8	1,436,101 04Total Operating Income or Deficit	Grand Trunk Lines in New England	
Grand Trunk Western Lines	
Duluth, Winnipeg & Pacific Railway	.8	888,511 84 7,845,739 35 160,956 10	$	256,719 86 4,216,019 61 1,944 60Canadian National Railways in U.S	8	7,318,183 61	s	3,961,244 35Non-Operating Income	Grand Trunk Lines in New England	
Grand Trunk Western Lines	
Duluth, Winnipeg & Pacific Railway	.8	873,338 52 124,148 34 7,418 35	$	136,414 18 1,032,318 74 9,584 18Canadian National Railways in U.S	s	505,500 21	$	1,178,317 10Deductions from Gross Income	Grand Trunk Lines in New England	
Grand Trunk Western Lines-	
Duluth, Winnipeg & Pacific Railway	.8	1,501,117 82 7,049,728 29 65,282 79	$	1,268,223 80 5,662,953 92 45,060 43Canadian National Railways in U.S	*	8,616,128 90	8	6,976,237 95Total Income or Deficit Before Fixed Charges	a . Gr nd Trunk Lines in New Egnland	
Grand Trunk Western Lines-	
Du uth, Winnipeg & Pacific Railway	.$	2,562,968 18 671,267 72 88,254 96	$	1,388,529 28 414,615 57 83,531 65Canadian National Railways in U.S	$	1,803,445 50	$	1,836,676 50
N.B.-Italics indicate deficits.
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Ministers Statement
CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS Lines in the United States-Concluded
Income Account-Concluded Years ending December 31st, 1923 and 1922
Grand Trunk Lines in New England:- Interest due the Public	
Interest due Government	*...	1923	$...	1922Grand Trunk Western Lines:- Interest due the Public	
Interest due Government	s	635,114 64	$	648,247 14Duluth, Winnipeg Pacific:- Interest due the Public	
Interest due Government	s	280,519 72	*	280,199 84
Canadian National Railways in U.S,
Total Deficit
Grand Trunk Lines in New England	
Grand Trunk Western Lines	
Duluth, Winnipeg & Pacific Railway	
Canadian National Railways in U.S,
$	915,634 36	*	928,446 98.$	2,562,968 IS	$	1,388,529 2836,153 08	1,062,862 71192,264 76	SIS,731 49$	2,719,079 86	$	2,765,123 48
N.B.-Italics indicate deficits.

CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS Total*Ad vances by Dominion Government to December 31, 1923
Total	Working Capital and Investment Account	Retirement of Capital Obligations	Operating Deficits	Fixed Charges	Guaranteed Interest G.T.P.	Total Accrued Interest due Government to December 31, 1923Canadian National Rys. (G.T.R. of Can.)- Total Advances to December 31, 1922	$ cts. 84,560,342 60 24,037,037 77	$ cts. 30,093,833 84 7,125,643 71	$ cts. 33,341,345 86 5,333,580 25	$ cts. 1,877,047 56	$ cts. 19,248,115 34 11,577,813 81	$ cts.	$ cts. 7,967,405 29 6,785,645 41Total to December 31, 1923	
Canadian Northern Railway System- Total Advances to December 31, 1922	
Advances during year 1923	
Total to December 31, 1923	108,597,380 37	37,219,477 55	38,674,926 11	1,877,047 56	30,825,929 15	14,753,050 70298,799,591 72 28,298,789 13	122,058,164 43 7,271,376 48	52,240,326 10 4,376,900 72	23,810,869 22 1,197,159 93	100,690,231 97 15,453,352 00	51,233,156 66 18,689,794 00327,098,380 85	129,329,540 91	56,617,226 82	25,008,029 15	116,143,583 97	69,922,950 60Grand Trunk Pacific Railway- Total Advances to December 31, 1922	123,586,034 75 8,588,683 67	75,061,152 30 2,605,541 04	22,260,913 60 3,860,363 19	10,697,766 98	15,566,201 87 2,122,779 44	*10,128, 3 3,865,027 20Total to December 31, 1923	132,174,718 42	77,666,693 34	26,121,276 79	10,697,766 98	17,688,981 31	13,993,268 52Total	567,870,479 64	244,215,711 80	95,292,152 93	53,006,353 50	157,667,280 10	17,688,981 31	98,669,269 88
Note.-Figures at December 31, 1922 have been reclassified on the Railway Books to agree with classification on the books of the Department of Railways and Canals.
* Reduced by $11,787,720 interest on 3% Mountain Bonds for seven years after close of construction charged to Government under Agreement.
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement

[Stage Direction]
Locomotives
16 Mountain type	
16 Consolidated type.
5 Pacific type	
35 Mikado type	
10	"	"	
8 " "	
10 " "	
10 Boosters	
10	"	applied....
10 Switches	
8 "	
5	"		
5	"		
7 Transfer Switchers.
Passenger Equipment
35 1st Class Coaches	
6 Comb. 1st and 2nd Class Coaches 50 Express Refrigerator Cars-
20 Baggage Cars	
10 " "	
30 Sleeping Cars	
10 Mail Cars	
Freight Equipment
1,000
1,000
750
1,000
400
100
100
8
Refrigerator Cars. 40-ton Box Cars...
60-ton Box Cars	
40-ton Automobile Cars.
General Service Cars.
Hopper Cars	
Hart Ballast Cars	
Depressed Centre Flats. All steel Snow Plows__
Conversions and Repairs
1,000 Steel Underframe Box Cars. 500	"	"	"	.
116 All Wood Box Cars	
806 Hopper Cars	
500 Stock Cars	
321 Refrigerator Cars	
140	"	"		
272 General Service Cars	
50 Caboose Cars	
28 Ore cars	
Canadian Locomotive Co. American Locomotive Co.
Montreal Locomotive Co.. American Locomotive Co.
it	it
Canadian Locomotive Co. Franklin Rly. Supply Co.. Canadian Locomotive Co.
American Locomotive Co.
Lima Locomotive Co	
American Locomotive Co.
Lima Locomotive Co	
Canadian Locomotive Co.
Canadian Car & Foundry Co.
National Steel Car Co	
Canadian Car & Foundry Co.
N ational Steel Car Co	
Canadian Car & Foundry Co.
American Car & Foundry Co. Canadian Car & Foundry Co..
National Steel Car Co	
Eastern Car Co	
Canadian Car & Foundry Co.,
National Steel Car Co	
Pressed Steel Car Co	
Canadian Car & Foundry Co..
National Steel Car Co	
Eastern Car Co	
Pressed Steel Car Co	
Eastern Car Co	
Canadian Car & Foundry Co..
Eastern Car Co.
National Steel Car Co	
Canadian Car & Foundry Co.
Eastern Car Co	
Canadian Car & Foundry Co. National Steel Car Co	
Eastern Car Co	
Canadian Car & Foundry Co.
Price
Total Including Sales Tax
$ cts.		$ cts.	
74,500	00	1,245,640	0047,165	00	754,640	0056,000	00	280,000	0066,500	00	2,431,453	7556,795	00	567,950	0056,625	00	451,208	0066,500	00	694,925	008,000	00	81,800	001,500	00	15,270	0041,000	00	430,749	0037,570	00	300,560	0051,700	00	258,500	0038,092	00	190,460	0040,000	00	120,000	0052,500	00	384,037	00Cost plus	1,296,357	35"	222,232	1910,550	00	551,237	5024,750	00	517,275	0024,750	00	258,637	5049,400	00	1,548,690	0029,650	00	309,842	503,132	11	783,027	502,550	00	2,669,750	002,555	84	2,670.852	802,555	20	1,277,600	003,200	00	2,50S,000	003,200	00	834,000	002,275	00	2,275,000	002, 625	00	1,645,875	002,625	00	1,097,250	002,950	00	295,000	002,300	00	230,000	002,750	00	287,375	003,264	50	341,140	005,930	00	74,362	2510,500	00	87,780	0029,988,478	34
993,
487,
181,
1,221,
125,
965,
322,
618,
113,
23,
021 42 099 49 804 89 659 10 565 43 186 01 000 00 800 00 703 06 991 76
5,052,831 16
Summary
New Equipment	 $29,988,478 34
Conversions and Repairs	
5,052,831	16Total	
$35,041,309	50
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Arthur Meighen: (Leader of the Opposition):	Mr. Speaker, my first
suggestion to the minister would be that in respect of the annual railway statement it would probably be an improvement if the reports of the president were treated similarly to the statement to which he has just referred, and included in Hansard without perusal. I say that, not in any spirit of cynicism or sarcasm towards the report. It must have impressed all hon. members, though, that the report was extremely long in detail; I will not say confused; but because of the necessity of being cumbered with so much of technical and financial language it was not easily absorbed by hon. members by a mere listening in the House. The reading of it had the effect of burying the minister's latter presentation under a deluge of technical railway terminology, so much so that many hon. members escaped, and those who were here I fear scarcely understood even the clear presentation he made at the last.
I urged a year ago that we should, in the matter of our railway reports to parliament, observe as far as possible a sequence in the whole system and order of presentation. If we do not, we are never going to be able to really grasp and understand the subject. I cannot see very much of the parallel in the method the minister adopts this year with that he adopted a year ago, and had I not previously been armed with at least some experience with this question, and particularly with some facts which the minister gave me himself, I am afraid I would have come away very little enlightened by what I have listened to this afternoon.
May I make a reference to the minister's last appeal before I go farther? I am one of those who, I think, can be counted a friend of the National Railways; I would be a very strange individual if I were not. I am one of those, I think one of millions, one of the vast majority of the people of Canada, the almost unanimous total of the people of Canada, who wish earnestly and hopefully success to this system. Nor would I be a party to any course of conduct which sought to imperil that success. I am one of those who believe as well that we have launched the right machinery by which we can best of all hope to make a success of this great enterprise. Canada is in a position unique in the world. With less than nine millions of people, we have the largest single railway enterprise in the world, our possession and our responsibility. No nation five times our size, or ten times, no nation however large, has a parallel responsibility at all. In so far then as the duty of managing a great business venture goes, Canada 
stands in a place by herself in the world. The first great difficulty was to plan a scheme by which there could be a prospect of making it go. The incorporation of a company with the stock owned by the nation and the appointment of a directorate corresponding to the directorate of a private company was the plan suggested and approved. We now have had some years of experience. While these years have not been fruitful of what could be called unmixed success, nevertheless they have at least taught us this lesson that no better scheme could have been launched and that there was no better system of machinery by which we could have hoped to attain success earlier or more abundant.
We now also have the precept of another body of men who were shouldered with tremendous responsibility too and were asked to devise for the management of a corresponding venture in the Old Land, a system or a mechanism, and who have reported in favour of just such a one as has already been tried in Canada. I refer to the Dawes Reparation Commission, dealing with the question of German reconstruction. They recommend for the management of the railway system of Germany, already for many years the property of the state, a change, placing that management on the corporate basis and under a directorate exactly the same or virtually the same as we have had in this Dominion. So we started right.
There were dangers ahead, as everybody understood. Some of the dangers the Ministei of Railways has alluded to in the latter sentences of his address-dangers of inquisition at the hands of parliament, an inquisition embarrassing to the management itself, irritating to the personnel of the management, an inquisition designed for purposes wholly apart from any that go to the success of the system. Those who had to do with the initiation of the National Railways of Canada had some fear of just this thing. Early in its history we were subjected to exactly that style of inquisition. We were not surprised, but we stood in parliament and declared on oui responsibility as a government that it was our duty to lay down the rule which we would pursue, and to stand between such questioning and the directorate. We took the responsibility ourselves. We declared that questions that in any way affected the day to day management of the system, or that in any way embarrassed or prejudiced the management, would not be answered in this House. For taking that position we were arraigned throughout the length and breadth of Canada as autocrats, as men who sought to conceal,

CN.R.-Minister's Statement
as men who denied the representatives of the people those things to which they were justly entitled, and as men who wanted to hide, under some opaque monstrous substance, facts affecting over half the revenue and assets of the people of this Dominion. We had to stand that manner of attack. We were not subjected to that attack at the hands of the present Minister of Railways-he was not in the House-but at the hands of his leader chiefly, and at the hands of all his followers of that day. The hon. member for North Waterloo (Mr. Euler) shakes his head, and this time I have, as before, to make an exception in his case. He proved himself a friend of the National Railways early in its history, and I do not think he found fault with us for taking a stand which it was our duty to take, and which it has been for two and a half years the duty of this government to take, but which it had not the courage to assume. This government should have taken this stand and should have openly admitted that the late government was right, denied any inquisition and refused to answer a question which would prejudice the management in the discharge of its duty. They say that members should not ask questions. We do not depend on the will of members as to the management of this House. We have certain rules which all adopt, and we all follow the rule adopted and abide by it. Why not do it in regard to this matter as in other matters. Let the government take its own responsibility and refuse answers to questions which do not need to be answered for the good of parliament and which should not be answered for the good of the system.
Let me go to the other side of the picture which the minister did not refer to, and which I am sorry he did not take the trouble to discuss. Neither in office nor out of office have I subscribed to the principle that all the doings of the directors of the National Railways and the whole record of management should be a sealed book for all eternity. I have seen certain newspaper articles of recent date and some of older date that seemed to be inspired by that idea. There surely is some method by which all that the paanagement had done may be-subject perhaps to certain restraints, but very, very few -brought under the review of the committee of this House and under the review of parliament and shown up at such a time as in no way to embarrass the management or to interfere with the success of the operation of the system. Who is there who would suggest that the disposal of over half of the revenue of this Dominion, the honesty of that disposal,
the capacity or the inefficiency with which the whole thing is managed, must never be reviewed by the shareholders of the corporation and must be closed and relegated to the past; that we have to take the word of one single man, however mighty, that all is well find fine, and that if we attempt to review it and go very far back, we are treading on holy ground and must be prevented. But really that is the position we are in now.
I think there should be a standing committee of this House to which, for example, the report read to-day by the Minister of Railways could be submitted. We spend time here on the estimates of this department and that department; we pass votes for $100, $1,000, $10,000 and so on, we debate some of them for hours and all the while moneys by the millions, yea, by the hundreds of millions, are swiftly expended without our knowledge and we have nc concern about it. These moneys are paid out, discharged and disbursed by a directorate. We here in parliament, who are trustees for .that money in just the same sense, at least to just the same extent, as we are trustees for the rest of the money of the .people of Canada, have not one word to say and have not the right to review it.


Andrew Ross McMaster: Is not that a very strong argument for what was urged in this House some years ago by the hon. member for Shelburne and Queens (Mr. Fielding), that all the moneys collected for the National Railways should go into consolidated account and should be paid out under resolutions of this House, as other expenditures are paid out?


Arthur Meighen: I do not think so, because when the hon. member urges this proposition he runs counter to the very sound principle which the Minister of Railways enunciated and advocated, but which the government has not the courage to enforce; namely the principle that such immediate and direct control on the part of parliament is inconsistent with the whole system of directorate management, and directorate management is essential to the business success of the enterprise. Some time must elapse before, in my judgment, anything can be fairly, equitably, safely, inquired into, and there may have to be some restraints as to inquiries even applying to matters further back. I can imagine cases where there would be. Something must be left to the directorate in the way of discretion, a prima facie case being made for them as a safeguard against perilous inquisition. But subject to that, all the expenditure of

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
this money, when it is through and done, should come before a committee of this House, and all the matters that are embraced, for example, in the annual presentations and monthly presentations of the concern should be studied carefully by members of this House. As a matter of fact, we are here in parliament watching with curious and cares ful eye this little thing and that little thing, and all the while as regards so much more, equal in size, equal in importance, our eyes are blindfolded and we are told that we have to stay in that position in order that the enterprise may go ahead. This is not true. This was never the contention of the late administration. I invite hon. members to read the debate which took place in the month of May, I think, of 1921, and which was initiated by a motion made by the then hon. member for Halifax, the present Chief Justice of the Exchequer Court. Two years and a half have gone by and no step whatever has been taken to bring about just the system of review contemplated both by that motion and by the amendment of the government which ultimately was passed.


Andrew Ross McMaster: The method which my right hon. friend outlines might have great value as a method of review, but it could have little effect on what is past and gone. It might help as regards the future.


Arthur Meighen: :	It would have this
effect, that the very knowledge that this review rested with parliament would have a restraining effect on those who, perhaps, are not saints in the organization of the system itself. I do not think we have any more right to assume that in that organization, however efficient-and in the main I think it is efficient we have any higher standard of manhood than we have in the service of the Dominion as a whole outside of the organization. Consequently, the knowledge that this power of inquisition rested with parliament, true, a power that is in a way retroactive alone, nevertheless will have a restraining and a wholesome influence upon the whole management of the enterprise. I should have said that in respect of capital investment, .certainly a review by a committee of parliament would be of immediate value, because this parliament has never entrusted to any directorate control of capital investment. This parliament has wisely reserved to itself that entire control. We have not always been permitted to exercise it. The control which parliament has reserved to itself has been invaded, not, I hope, frequently, but certainly on one or more occa-

sions, and perhaps without being unduly severe, I may comment on the very great brevity in the part of the president's report which deals with the Scribe hotel.


Andrew Ross McMaster: Does the hon. member not feel that, however wide the discretion given to the directors is, the main features of policy must remain under the control of this House?


Arthur Meighen: One may use the words "features of policy" in too detailed a sense. I would rather say "principles of policy".


Andrew Ross McMaster: In broad lines of
policy.


Arthur Meighen: Yes, broad lines of
policy must remain under the control of parliament.
I want to review new some of the facts and figures brought out by the minister and by the president in - his report. Comparing the year 1923 with the year 1922, regard must be had to two or three very important considerations. Although, perhaps, the year 1922 might have been the same, certainly the condition could not have been the same before, but actually and necessarily in 1923, for the first time we had the advantages of an amalgamated system. We had the Grand Trunk railway and the National railways, the old Canadian Northern and the government railways, all operated as one entity instead of as two entities. That there would be economies and advantages in the way of one management by this amalgamation, everyone anticipated. I for one anticipated much greater economy than now appears in evidence. Perhaps, however, I had not ground for the anticipation. All I ask now is that hon. members consider that this advantage appertained to 1923 and is an infinitely greater advantage than all the rather picayune things referred to by the minister as unfavourable to the operations of that year. There is another feature. The year 1923, from a freight carrying standpoint, was the most abundant year we have ever known; 1923 witnessed a crop production of some 470,000,000 bushels, seventy million bushels more in this respect alone than that of any previous year. Consequently the railway got the benefit of the freight that resulted. These matters I draw attention to. I cannot think of any major factor favourable to the previous years as against 1923.
I come now to review the results. I do so. more in a spirit of examination and inquiry than in a spirit of criticism. I do not pretend to have had that very close association

C.N.R.-Ministers Statement
with railway management that enables me, with an intelligence satisfactory to myself, to analyze railway reports and to analyze particularly the mass of figures which the minister presented to-day. I open by saying that I do feel a little disappointed that 1923 has not resulted better. In the debate on the Address, I gave to the House the actual figures for the whole year's operations, and the minister's figures to-day confirm them to a dollar. Those were correct. In certain of his figures to-day there is a very slight variation, due, I presume, to the admission or the exclusion of the Central Vermont. This, however, is not material, at least, it is not substantial. The figures that I gave at that time showed that, in resipect of one account, that is what is called operating income account, we had an improvement over the year before of $17,500,747.15. Those are precisely reflected now in the figures given by the minister, figures which he was good enough to supply me with in advance from the company itself. In the next account though, non-operating account, which is really just as much operation as the previous one, indeed, exactly the same, there is not an improvement but a diminution from the year before of $2,170,256.35. In the third account, which includes fixed charges and many other items such as payments for cars leased, rent for joint terminals and facilities, supply of freight care and the like of that, if we take out the fixed charges, there is no improvement again. On the contrary, there is a falling off by $3,269,190.12. There is not a bit of use in blinding ourselves to any one of these three, for each represents dollars just as much as the other; and adding all three together the net improvement, not taking into account fixed charges, is exactly $12,061,270.69.


George Perry Graham: That is the amount by
which the railways will be able to reduce the fixed charges on loans from the public.


Arthur Meighen: No; they will not be
able to do that,- and I will show why in a moment.


George Perry Graham: I think so.


Arthur Meighen: This is the amount of
net improvement, assuming that they just had the same interest to pay on funded debt in 1923 as in 1922; it is the amount of improvement over the ye^r before. I hope the minister will see where he is wrong. I am not giving the net results; I am giving the improvement over the year before, which was 812,061,270.69. Coming now to the fixed charges, the figures were $59,400,476.11 for 1922
and $65,199,323,95 for the year 1923, or an increase in fixed charges of $5,798,847.84. And most of the increase was due the government. So that the net improvement for the year is exactly $6,262,422.84.


George Perry Graham: My hon. friend and I
agree exactly.


Arthur Meighen: I am glad of that.


George Perry Graham: In 1923 the fixed charges
owed the public were in round figures $35,000,000, which includes the $5,000,000 of increase in fixed charges. Against that $35,000,000 there can be deducted $12,000,000, leaving a balance at December 31 due the public of $22,000,000.


Arthur Meighen: There should be no difference between the minister and myself on this point.


George Perry Graham: There is not.


Arthur Meighen: There is not the least
reason why there should be, but I may put it more clearly. Outside of fixed charges the betterment is $12,061,270.69 over the year before, if we are assuming that the increase in fixed charges is wholly due the government. Of course the Minister of Finance does not have to provide that money; there is no use in his handing that money to the railways to have it handed back to himself. Consequently the Minister of Finance, as compared with the year before, would require that much less money for the railways. This is the only conclusion one can come to from these figures; or rather it is an additional conclusion. We know that the improvement is, in round figures, $12,061,000 outside of increased fixed charges, and we know that the Minister of Finance requires that much less for the railways. So far so good. Taking into account fixed charges-for we must do so if we are going to face the situation and not merely put behind us what we do not like-the improvement is reduced to $6,262, 422.45. Well, $6,000,000 is a substantial amount and I welcome that reduction; I wish I could welcome it more heartily, and the reasons for my reserve I shall give later. However, I welcome it such as it is. But when, taking into account the fixed charges, we find that the deficit is $51,697,674.54, we are not likely to become very enthusiastic about very rapidly overtaking that immense figure. That sum includes of course not only the moneys due outsiders, the public, for interest, but moneys due the government as well. The moneys due outsiders amount approximately to $36,000,000, within a very few dollars, and the moneys due the government
t

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
total $29,166,506. So that as regards the minister's statement, that we can now hopefully look forward to the time when we shall be able to overtake at least the moneys due the public, I am afraid that at the rate we are going we shall have to wait a period of six years before we can do this. I make this remark chiefly because there is attributed to the president, in more speeches than one, the assertion that in two more years we shall be past deficits. But at the rate we went last year I say we shall not be past deficits for six years; and if you include the moneys dne the country

and why we should not include them I do not know, inasmuch as they are exactly the same except that the minister does not have to find money to pay himself-it is going to take us about eleven years to come square with the balance sheet, judging by the rate we proceeded in 1923.
Now I come to what I consider a more serious phase of the inquiry. No one would more like to find better results than I would myself, and I had hoped that we should get to that stage sooner than we are doing. The rate at which we have improved this year is not, however, so great as the rate by which we improved in 1922 over 1921. The minister knows that we improved much faster that year; and that year showed a more rapid rate of improvement still over the preceding period. It is not of course conclusive evidence against the management, that we are not improving as rapidly as we were doing before, any more than it would be conclusive evidence against the late administration that the debt is not increasing now as fast as it did under us. There was a war then, there is not one today; and we had to meet the consequences of a war, whereas the government to-day has not. Similarly, the chances of the railways for immediate improvement after large sums are expended in the betterment of the system are rather better than they are going to be later on when more normal conditions are reached.
I realize of course that it is a digression, but I must refer to the fact that in his speech the minister intimated to the House that the government intended to improve the management by the addition of certain business men living close to the head office. Well, I do not offer any comment on the suggestion now save this, that, speaking without the confidence of Sir Henry Thornton, I venture to suggest that if his inner mind were known, instead of asking for additions to his directorate he would ask for some subtractions first. I have always had a measure of sympathy with the new president, struggling as he is under the impedimenta of the directorate which the  -
government foisted upon him. The minister speaks of the great assistance and information which these directors will bring from the ends of Canada. Well, the one who comes from the farthest end, just at the present moment is stumping in Queen Charlotte Islands in the Pacific on behalf of the Liberal candidate. This is the service he is rendering the system, and I have no doubt it is equal in importance to the service he has rendered from the very first hour of his appointment. I should like to know what the distinguished ex-member of the House from Quebec, Colonel Talbot, has done to improve the balance sheet. It would be interesting to get the real opinion of the minister as to the value of that acquisition. Yes, and of 80 per cent of them all. "Oh," the minister says, "you should not attack the directorate. By attacking them they may resign. It is not what they do with the Canadian Pacific Railway." Well, let him first take a lesson out of his own record. What was the attack made by this government on the directorate? They threw the directorate into the sea. And for no cause at all, without even an allegation, without even a suggestion of incompetence, without the possibility of a suggestion of partisanship in any one of them.


An hon. MEMBER:: Oh, oh.


Arthur Meighen: If there is anybody
mumbling, he does not know. Hoes anybody suggest Tory partisanship against Mr. Barnhill of St. John? Why was he thrown into the bay? Any suggestion of Tory partisanship against Mr. Riley of Winnipeg? Why was he thrown in a somersault? And Mr. Wood of Toronto-


George Perry Graham: I would not omit the
Pictou candidate.


Arthur Meighen: Who was he?


George Perry Graham: The opponent of Mr. Macdonald.


Arthur Meighen: Yes, Colonel Cantley
contested the seat since, but he took no part in politics before. And he was not dismissed by the government. I am not speaking of him; he was not touched. These men I speak of are the men the government attacked, and, doing so, they set a precedent which makes the management of -that system doubly difficult for many years to come. That was the most fatal precedent this government ever set. When I use that language, I use very strong language indeed. How is any president after this to feel that he has the least

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
security, however much he values his directorate-and 1 am not suggesting, because I have more respect for him than to imagine it, that the present president values his directorate very much-


Andrew Ross McMaster: May I interject a
question? What does the hon. member think of the idea of having business men as directors? Does he think it a wise plan or does he not?


Arthur Meighen: There can be arguments [DOT] advanced against the plan.


Mr. POWER:: Yes or no.


Arthur Meighen: I do not think we are going to be able to get on without having various parts of the Dominion represented on the directorate. At the same time, there is a great deal to be said for a more immediate acquaintance with the management on the part of the Minister of Railways and the government itself. I do not know that I would care to commit myself definitely one way or the other. Suffice to say that I am not attributing any error to this administration in that regard, because we ourselves adopted the plan which at the time we believed would be best.


Charles Gavan Power: That is not an answer. The answer is yes or no.


Arthur Meighen: I think the hon. member's answers would usually be both. I have given, I think, a pretty frank answer. I am inclined to the view that various parts of the Dominion must be represented, and, consequently, that the directorate system must be followed.
I was proceeding to a comparison of 1923 with 1922, and I came to the conclusion- rather, I read the conclusion from the railway report itself-that the improvement was only some $6,200,000 with $65,000,000 to overtake. I now come to an examination of the method by which the improvement of $6,200,000 is arrived at. Holding in my hand what is described as the income statement of the system for the year ending December 1923, I find the figures given for the entire year in detail as compared with the year before.


William Daum Euler: If my hon. friend will permit me? I think the minister said that the deficit to be overtaken was $51,000,000, and our net improvement $6,000,000. That would not take eleven years to recover; it would take eight and a half years.
, Mr. MEIGHEN: I think the hon. member is right. 1 was looking at the $65,000,000 of fixed charges.


William Daum Euler: But that is not the deficit.


Arthur Meighen: No. The $65,000,000 of
fixed charges would account for eleven years; but as a matter of fact we have overtaken part of that already, and the point made by the hon. member is right. We have already overtaken sufficient to bring us down to $51,000,000, so it would take about eight odd years at the pace we are going instead of eleven years. I am very glad the hon. gentleman drew that to my attention. This, however, is widely at variance with the prophecies of the president, and in face of the figures before me I really cannot understand his making them.


George Perry Graham: From what I know of the president's statements, I think he had reference to the amount due the public, not to the entire liability.


Arthur Meighen: Such did not appear from the report of his addresses.


George Perry Graham: Unless the reporter was
thoroughly conversant with the subject he would not be able to give the correct effect of the addresses.


Arthur Meighen: Certainly the people are
hoping for an early balancing of the railway budget, but they do not want to found their hopes on illusory promises. But even if he referred to the interest due the public, he is four years out at that, for it would take six years to overtake the deficit at the rate of improvement last year.
Now I come to inquire whether we have a right to rely-I was going to say on the bona fide-on the dependability of the improvement of $6,200,000 odd for 1923. These income statements present the revenues and expenditures for all the lines, and as well the revenues and expenditures for each division. Some of the figures were given by the minister in his address. He stated, for example, that in respect of revenue there was an increase in all classes-freight, passenger, baggage, sleeping car, parlour car, and the like, except mail. I believe that statement is correct. There was a considerable and a gratifying increase in the revenue, and I am not disposed to deny to the activities of the organization credit for that increase. I know the increase of previous years was as great if not greater, but we are glad to see increases. We have, of course in all fairness to keep in mind that the production, particularly in western Canada, was very much in excess of the year before.
Coming, though, to the other figures-and I am speaking now of all the lines combined-[DOT] I find the amount expended for maintenance
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement

of way and structures in 1923 was $44,781,775, and the amount expended the year before, $45,623,000. The difference is not relatively very great, but there is a diminution of about one million dollars, at a time when there was a substantial increase of traffic throughout the entire year. In the same year the Canadian Pacific, on figures which I made inquiry for and obtained, increased their maintenance of way expenditure, instead of diminishing it, by $3,405,126. But the next item arouses still greater curiosity. In maintenance of equipment. the expenditure for 1923 was $52,176,000, the expenditure on the same account for 1922 was $56,160,700. Hon. members will see that there was spent on maintenance of equipment about $4,000,000 less in 1923 than in 1922. And a curious feature is that in the month of December 1922 it took $7,370,000 to maintain equipment, whereas in the month of December 1923 it took only $4,212,806, a reduction in one month of over $3,000,000. Really it is impossible to escape the fear that an attempt was being made in the latter part of that month to improve the operating showing either by carrying forward necessary maintenance or by taking care of it in some other way.
Now I come to more details still. In the matter of transportation costs, that is to say, the cost of haulage of the goods, the account that very largely discloses the efficiency of management, the success with which the management have secured full cars, the tptal weight per car growing according as this account is kept under control-an account that very largely reveals the economy of management,-in this account I find that instead of a diminution there is an increase from $113,000,000 odd in 1922 to $120,000,000 odd in 1923. ^ In miscellaneous operations the figures are about the same. In traffic, that is to say the management of traffic, there is a substantial increase as well.
Now I come to some details in the matter of maintenance of way. I am aware that the minister stated in his address to-day, although he did not make it very clear to me-I am quite prepared to ascribe it to my density;
I tried hard to understand it-"Oh", he said, "the reduction in the maintenance of way is because of some reserve maintenance that was gathered into an account in 1922, and we are now charging against that instead of against the regular account."
That is as near as I could understand it. Well, it does not matter. The fact is there is that much less expended, there is that much less money going out for maintenance of way. It is not very great, it is only a million dollars. But in respect of equipment it is very great indeed. In respect of freight car eiuipment, for example, it is $5,000,000-from

twenty-three millions down to eighteen in one year. That is very remarkable. In respect of maintenance of equipment the reduction in 1923 from 1922 is greater than the whole improvement of 1923 over 1922. So I say the foundation seems to be rather weak upon which we can expect a continuation, at least on a fair and complete disclosure of the facts, of even the $6,000,000 improvement shown last year. How can we account, for example, for a reduction from $23,518,811 on freight car repairs in 1922 to $18,289,334 for the very same thing in 1923?


Andrew Ross McMaster: Does this thought not strike the hon. member: That when these different railways were consolidated, certain of them had run down to a great extent as regards both their road-bed and their equipment; that very large sums were spent on the improvement of the road-bed and the supplying of new equipment, and that that might be a reason why there would be a diminishing ratio of expense in regard to these matters?


Arthur Meighen: Well, it would be just
the other way, because last year was the first year of consolidation, and even last year under consolidation


Andrew Ross McMaster: Forgive my interrupting, but I was using the word "consolidation" in the sense of the railways being brought together, not necessarily being operated under one management, but co-ordinated, as they were, I think, when my right hon. friend was prime minister. The railways were brought together, though perhaps not consolidated, and my recollection as a member of this House at the time is that very large sums of money were spent on the improvement of the old Grand Trunk and of the old Canadian Northern, both on the road-bed and on new cars. That should, it seems to me, provide a betterment the effect of which would be seen in subsequent years.


Arthur Meighen: I do not think the hon. member has the point exactly. It is true a lot of mone3'' was spent on new equipment, but we had new equipment in 1923. We had new equipment in 1922, large amounts of it-I think approximately the same amount each year. In 1923 though, in repairs of the equipment-and the more equipment we have the more repairs there must be-


Andrew Ross McMaster: Not if it is new equipment.


Arthur Meighen: There would not be as
much of the new, but in 1923 we have $5,000,000 or more of a reduction in maintenance of equipment. Does not the hon. member see the possibility of this being done: That in-

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
stead of spending money on repairs of equipment they call upon the minister to advance capital to buy new equipment while the old cars remain unrepaired? If this was done to any substantial extent it would largely account for just the figures we see before us.


George Perry Graham: If my right hon. friend
will look at that report I think he will find that the percentage is given of the cars in good repair as compared with the percentage of those out of repair on the different lines. A comparison of the two as found in the report would show, I think, that the cars of the Canadian National Railways were kept up to standard.


Arthur Meighen: My information is that
that has only to do with cars booked for repair; that they do not need to book them for repair unless they want to. The figures to which the minister refers would relate to cars booked for repair alone. The cold fact is that in a year when the railways did more business than ever before and consequently when more repairs would be required-because my information is that the repair account for cars is virtually proportionate to mileage and freight carried-in that year we find a reduction of freight car repairs from $23,000,000 to $18,000,000. Now I do not want to be taken as confirming finally and by way of court of appeal that that is the only explanation, but it does seem to me very strange that such a very great disparity should prevail.
Coming to ties, in maintenance of way, for example, I find that $8,935,000 were spent on tie repairs and tie maintenance in 1922, whereas in 1923, a year of heavier traffic, the amount spent was $6,685,000. This seems hard to account for, too. Will the minister answer this: Is it the practice of the present management to charge the entire cost of the new creosoted tie to capital? If it is, we can easily account for this.


George Perry Graham: I do not know.


Arthur Meighen: If it is done-and I am
not saying it is-a scheme of that sort would account for just the figures we find here. Then it is easy to account for a diminution of operating costs, but it is all atoned for b}'' advances for capital. In a word, it is not a fair or full or correct presentation of the facts to the people. I think I have gone far enough to show that in respect of moneys apparently saved in freight car repairs and in tie repairs there are millions more than the whole improvement of 1923 over 1922. Therefore one must be excused for not being wildly
optimistic and incurably hopeful of reaching a balanced budget in respect of our railways in the very near future.
There are other details in this report which are equally interesting. When one comes to the transportation costs he finds that virtually all along the line there is a very large increase over the year before, the total increase being approximately $8,000,000. In
1922	one would not look for as great an improvement over 1921 as he would look for in 1923 over 1922. For the most part, the rates for the carriage of our goods were virtually the same in 1923 as they were in 1922. The Crowsnest pass rates came in before the harvest in the West. Consequently, we had the same rates for 1922 and 1923, but we did not have the same rates for 1922 and 1921. The Canadian National Railways in 1922, as against 1921, had to submit to a loss of about $6,000,000 in rate reductions. They had a small reduction in the mountain scale in
1923	over 1922, 10 per cent, but it did not affect the Canadian National Railways very appreciably. Consequently, you would look for a far greater improvement _ in 1923 over 1922 than you would look for in 1922 over 1921; but you do not find as great. Instead of being as great it is less, and the secret is to be found very largely in an analysis of the transportation account; because I find that whereas the operating improvement of 1922 over 1921, some $14,800,000, is accounted for by a reduction of $12,786,000, or 80 per cent, in the cost of transportation itself, instead of a reduction this year in the cost of transportation we have an increase of the figures I gave a moment ago.


George Perry Graham: May I interrupt for a moment? Cannot my hon. friend see, without any explanation, that it costs more to move two train loads of goods than it does to move one? The greater the traffic, the greater the expense of transportation. The transportation costs were reduced in the previous year because the traffic was reduced. Every extra train load of wheat you draw adds the cost of hauling that load of wheat to the transportation expense, and the greater the amount of traffic hauled by the railways the greater the transportation expense.


Arthur Meighen: That is correct. I never, even by inference, disputed that. In fact, I was trying to drive that home to the minister in respect of maintenance of cars and maintenance of ways. That is very true; it costs more to transport more goods. But here is the point: In respect of the improvement of the one year over the year before, in 1922
C.X.R.-Mmister's Statement

ove? 1921 it is virtually wholly due to reduction of this account, but in respect of 1923 over 1922 none of it is due to reduction; there is an increase, perhaps not very important when you take into account the increase in traffic. It is all due to maintenance of way and maintenance of equipment reduction. Surely the importance of this fact is clear to the minister.
Now I go further. I find that in 1922 there was a reduction in the payroll of $10,753,495, whereas in 1923 there was an increase of $7,714,273. I find many other details to which I could allude, but I do not think the occasion is proper for such an examination as the revelation of those details would entail.
Let me say this: The minister should very carefully go into all the accounts that are returned in the income statement of the Canadian National Railways, not only the minister and the government, but there should be a committee of this House to which these accounts would be submitted, a committee whose duty it would be to examine them thoroughly and acquaint the parliament of Canada with the real facts of the situation. Explanations of these accounts might possibly be given by the officials of the system. They would be very adequate explanations to satisfy me. There looks to me to be an unjust charge to capital, and an unfair reduction of charges to operation. On the face of the returns, at least that is evident. That may be only a prima facie conclusion that one comes to, but certainly it should be the duty of this House to examine fully and to know the inner meaning of all these returns, and know whether there is an answer to the indications which I have sought to convey to the House this afternoon. The desirability of such a committee must be manifest. We have a whole lot of standing committees now; we have had them added to this session, and I think we have some we could very well do without, some that I think are merely shunts, merely pieces of machinery by which initial responsibility in the government can be evaded. We could get rid of some of these standing committees, and then establish a committee which would have reposed in it a duty and a responsibility bigger than any standing committee of this House in the past ever discharged.


Hewitt Bostock: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?


Henry Lumley Drayton: Mr. Speaker, I
draw attention to the fact that it is six o'clock.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Arthur Meighen: What is the business
for Friday?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: We will continue this debate, and possibly resume in supply the estimates of the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment and the Department of the Interior, if we do not go on with the railway estimates.


Hewitt Bostock: I lost sight of the fact
that to-day was Wednesday, and the House does not sit to-night. I must simply say this:	The motion must be disposed of;
otherwise, I do not know where we shall be on Friday.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I move the adjournment of the debate.
Motion agreed to and debate adjourned.
At six o'clock the House adjourned, without question being put, pursuant to rule.
Friday, May 30, 1924



PENSIONS COMMITTEE

[Stage Direction]
Mr. J. J. DENIS (Joliette) presented the first report of the special committee appointed to consider questions relating to pensions, insurance and re-establishment of returned soldiers, as follows:
Your committee, in accordance with a resolution adopted at their meeting held this day, recommend that the quorum which is now fifteen members be reduced to nine members.
On motion of Mr. Denis (Joliette), the report was concurred in.
On motion of Hon. H. S. Beland (Minister of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment), the second interim report, dated May, 1924, of the Royal Commission, on Pensions and Re-establishment, which was presented to the House on May 12, was referred to the special committee appointed to consider questions relating to the pensions, insurance and re-establishment of returned soldiers.


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 144 (from the Senate), for the relief of Evelyn Eira Awery.

Mr. Stewart (Hamilton).

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 129, to incorporate Dominion Electric Protection Company.-Mr. Marcil (Bonaventure).

Hudson Bay Railway
Bill No. 130, respecting Alliance Nationale.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. Archambault.
Bill No. 131, for the relief of Ruth Ethelind Jackes.-Mr. Ryckman.
Bill No. 132, for the relief of Wilfred John Mitchell.-Mr. Simpson.
Bill No. 133, for the relief of Edward James _ Bentley.-Mr. Sheard.
Bill No. 134, for the relief of Elizabeth Sylvia Cameron.-Mr. Ross (Kingston.).
Bill No. 135, for the relief of Wilhelmina Aird McKay.

Mr. Preston.
Bill No. 136, for the relief of Mary Ellen McClelland.-Mr. Garland (Carleton).
Bill No. 137, for the relief of Annie Jane Bridges.-Mr. Harris.
Bill No. 138, for the relief of Florence Rath-bun.-Mr. Thurston.
Bill No. 139, for the relief of William Samuel Morrow.-Mr. Stewart (Leeds).
Bill No. 140, for the relief of Ethel May Macdonald.-Mr. Church.
Bill No. 141, for the relief of Stanley George Harris.-Mr. Sheard.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
William Daum Euler: I should like to submit a question to the Minister of Railways and Canals, (Mr. Graham) based on a report tabled in the House a few days ago. This report is by Mr. D. W. Mac-Lachlan, government engineer, in charge of dredging operations at Port Nelson and is dated as far back as September, 1917, or more than six years ago. In this report Mr. Mac-Lachlan absolutely condemns the whole project of the Hudson Bay railway and says that it is doomed to certain failure. I should like to ask if the report was actually submitted to the government at the time; and, if so, why it was not sooner made public; and whether, if the facts had been known, this country might not have been saved the waste and expenditure of large sums of money made since that time in the matter of the construction of that road?
Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals): I might say in the first place that the bringing down of the MacLachlan report, as it is called, was all that was covered by the motion of the hon. member for Centre Vancouver (Mr. Stevens). This report by Mr. MacLachlan was not in the department properly, technically speaking. It was a report made to the late chief engineer, and it seems to have been treated as if it were for his information alone. I had not seen the report until I saw it when the order
was made by the House. I think it is fair to say that since that time one or two other reports have been made, and I think they ought to be brought down to the House, so that all the facts on both sides of the question should be known by parliament.


Milton Neil Campbell: Did Mr. MacLachlan not present another report quite opposite to the one referred to, that of 1917, which later report was presented, I understand, in 1918?


George Perry Graham: I do not know that that is the case.


William Daum Euler: The minister had better dig them all up.


George Perry Graham: I have asked the department to-day to discover all the reports that were in the office of the late chief engineer, as I want to give them all to parliament and to let the members make their own selection.


Mr. KNOX:: When can we expect these other reports to be laid on the Table?


George Perry Graham: I cannot lay them on the Table without being asked for them. I will ask the department to get me copies of them to-morrow.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The minister has been
good enough to intimate that he will bring down a number of reports so that the members can make a selection. Would he mind making sure that a report made by Commander Wakeham is also brought down when he is bringing down the others? It also might contribute materially to the choice or selection made.


George Perry Graham: What year was that?


Henry Herbert Stevens: That was a number of
years ago. It is not in the Railway department but in the Marine department.



INQUIRIES FOR RETURNS


[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Arthur Meighen: On the 24th March an
order of the House was passed on my motion for a copy of correspondence passing between members of parliament and the Canadian National Railways. No return has as yet been brought down. In this connection I asked for the same with certain other matters in a motion of last session. The whole session was consumed in bringing down a mass of stuff that was not asked for and the essential matter asked for was shunted until the session
Business of the House

was over. I extracted just the essential matter for a motion this session and now apparently I cannot get an answer at all.
Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals):	I will not say
as usual, but it quite often occurs that my right hon. friend is wrong about these things. I will make an inquiry and see how this matter stands. I am sure it entails a great deal of work. I inquired some two weeks ago concerning it, and if my right hon. friend will look at the motion, he will see that he covered a good deal of territory.
STE. ANNE DE BELLEVUE MILITARY HOSPITAL On the Orders of the Day:


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: I beg to inform the House, Mr. Speaker, that I was under an entire misapprehension the other day in regard to a question I asked concerning a matter appertaining to the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment. I discovered afterwards that, as the minister (Mr. Beland) stated, the return had been brought down. My colleague who had asked for it had assured me that he had no intimation of its having been brought down, but as it happened both of us overlooked Votes and Proceedings. I wish to apologize to the minister for having appeared to throw any doubt on his department.


Henri Sévérin Béland: My hon friend's
statement is entirely satisfactory.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the motion being called:
Resuming the adjourned debate on the motion of the Acting Minister of Finance, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair for the House to go again into Committee of Supply.
Hewitt Bostock: The House is aware, I
have no doubt, that on Thursdays and Fridays when the Order of the Day is called for the House to go into committee of Supply as is the case to-day, or to go into committee of Ways and Means, the rule requires that the Speaker shall leave the chair without putting any question. On Wednesday evening the hon. member for West York (Sir Henry Drayton) moved the adjournment of the debate on the report, presented by the Minister of Railways, on the Canadian National Railways. If hon. members will consult section 180 of Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms they will see that it is incumbent 
upon the Speaker to obey standing Rule 17c and leave the chair without question being put on Thursdays and Fridays on going into committee of Supply or of Ways and Means. I quote the following from Section 180:
If an adjourned debate on such an amendment is standing upon the order paper when supply, for consideration of which in committee it is not necessary to propose the question for the Speaker's leaving the chair, is to be taken, the Order of the Day for resuming the adjourned debate is removed, and procedure on the amendment lapses, in order that the Speaker, in obedience to Rule 17c, may leave the chair without question put.
There is no amendment before the Chair at the present moment but there is a motion to adjourn the debate. Irrespective, however, of whether there is a motion or an amendment offered, on Thursdays and Fridays the Speaker must leave the chair without question put. The same rule obtains in England. Strangely enough, the point is stated in England in rule 17 while our own rule is 17c. I shall read the English rule:
Whenever the committee of supply stands as an order of the day, Mr. Speaker shall leave the chair without putting any question, unless on first going into supply on the army, navy, or civil service estimates respectively, or on any vote of credit, an amendment be moved, or question raised, relating to the estimates proposed to be taken into supply.
With reference to this, May, at page 476 has the following comment which I think may aptly be quoted:
If an adjourned debate on that question is standing upon the notice paper when supply, for the consideration of which in committee it is not necessary to propose the question for the Speaker's leaving the chair, is to be taken, the Order of the Day for resuming the adjourned debate is removed, and procedure on the amendment lapses, in order that the Speaker, in obedience to the standing order, may leave the chair without question put.
This of course does not preclude the hon. member from bringing up the question at another sitting when a formal motion is made, or, if the hon. member prefers to take another course, he may continue the debate upon an item being called in committee. That is optional with him. I simply desire to be clear on this point, however; the Speaker has no alternative on Thursdays and Fridays, when he must obey the standing rule and leave the chair without question put, upon the House going into committee of Supply or of Ways and Means.


Arthur Meighen: You rule, Mr. Speaker,
that Order No. 11, which is the adjourned debate, lapses to-day. The effect of that ruling is not, as I apprehend it, that the order is removed from the order paper; it there remains and may be called by the ministry, on government orders, on some future occasion.

Supply-Re-establishment


Hewitt Bostock: On any day except Thursdays and Fridays. I repeat, I merely wanted to make the point clear, because I do not wish to prevent the hon. member from continuing the debate. The rule stands and the Speaker must obey it.


[Stage Direction]
The House in committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment-care of patients and medical examination of pensioners, $2,600,000.
Henri Sévérin Béland: When we adjourned last Tuesday evening we had been considering this item for some length of time. On that occasion I supplied the committee with considerable information regarding the number of officials on the strength of the department, and I had given the number of patients in the hospitals and sanatoria which are entirely operated by the department, as well as the number -of those who are being treated in institutions other than such as are under the control of the department. I had also given some information with regard to the staff, though perhaps the matter was not entirely relevant. At about the hour of adjournment the question was brought up by the hon. member for Kingston (Mr. Ross) concerning the releasing from the administration of the department of a certain tubercular institution in Kingston known as Mowat. At that time my hon. friend intimated that he might have some remarks to make regarding this contemplated departure, and I shall be glad indeed to hear what he has to say in this connection. As I answered the question put by him the other night it is the intention of the department to hand over the Mowat institution to its owners. Under the terms of the lease the department can do this at any time after, I think, five years. When we adjourned last Tuesday my hon. friend from Kingston said he had some suggestions to make in this connection, and I should be glad now to hear what he has to say.


Mr. ROSS (Kingston):: I would prefer to deal with the whole matter in general rather than take it up now in detail. But before making any remarks I have one or two questions which I should like the minister to answer. For instance, how many of the patients that are in the St. Anne's and Christie Street hospitals are up, and how many are in bed?


Henri Sévérin Béland: When my hon. friend asked me this question last Tuesday, I answered 168
that it was not possible for me to supply him with this particular information, as the numbers vary from day to day. I can say, though, offhand that quite a substantial proportion of our patients are not bed patients. In this connection we have reached the time when a policy must be evolved for dealing with men who have been under active treatment in our hospital for a considerable pteriod and who may now be considered chronic cases, patients who cannot be benefited by further treatment. The only possible way of dealing with such chronic cases, as it strikes me, would be to provide home care for them, at a much reduced cost to the country and without interfering very much with their comfort.


Arthur Edward Ross: If I understand
correctly, a daily report is issued from each hospital of the number of patients in bed and the number up. Is that course not continued?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I think it is a weekly report from the director of medical services. Of course, the number of patients in bed and out varies from week to week.


Arthur Edward Ross: Could the minister give me the last weekly reports from these two hospitals?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have not got the reports with me, Mr. Chairman. I will get them for my hon. friend if he so desires.


Arthur Edward Ross: Mr. Chairman,
some remarks that I should like to make in regard to this item of hospitalization must be deferred until I receive those reports, because the information which I expect to get from them will have a bearing on what I am going to say. I will confine my remarks now to the subject of tubercular cases amongst ex-service men. I am very much interested in this because I fear that the experience which the first division had at the second battle of Ypres has very much to do with the condition of a great many ex-service men to-day. I am aware that the expert advice given to the department is that the gas employed by the Germans at the second battle of Ypres has very little to do with these tubercular cases. I am well aware that the gas which was let loose during thait weekx did not by any means carry over the tubercular bacilli to the men of the first division, but I do know that the injury those men then received should have very much to do with their physical condition in after years. Those medical men who were on duty at that time will remember the thousands of soldiers

Supply-Re-establishment

brought in suffering from the effects of gas. Such a thing had never been experienced in warfare before. Many men died' in the ambulances on the way to the hospitals, and many of those who survived and later were returned to the front dropped dead on the march back to the trenches. The injury to the respiratory tract was very severe, and in my opinion many of these men to-day are suffering from the effects of gas. It is quite true that no bacilli were carried over with that gas, but the mucous membrane of the respiratory tract was practically destroyed and the tract so weakened that after-effects would follow, such as bronchitis, and in many cases tuberculosis. The expert medical advisers of the Board of Pension Commissioners and the Department of Soldiers' Civil Reestablishment, I know, strongly advise against any connection between gas and tubercular cases. But I think I am safe in saying that no medical man can say definitely when tuberculosis began, it being very difficult to diagnose, even with the help of the X-ray and other technical means. I am in great sympathy with our ex-service men who are suffering from tuberculosis. They need the sympathy of the country, and I think that if a man is known at any time to have experienced the effects of poison gas he should be treated as having disability due to service, or at least aggravated by service. Many cases of tuberculosis are being thrown upon the country, and in the opinion of some medical men the disability is due to service, or aggravated by service, although the medical men of the department deny that there is any relation whatever between poison gas and tuberculosis. To-day some of these cases are being supported by the charity of the towns and cities where they live. Now Sir, we have only two institutions absolutely supported by the government for the treatment of exservice men suffering from tuberculosis, one being the institution known as the Mowat hospital in Kingston. This was started as a provincial organization by the Association of Health in the city of Kingston, which collected funds and, with support from the provincial government, founded the institution. It was taken over by the government during the war, and although it would be a great burden upon any health association to carry the work on, it is now proposed to turn this institution back to the organization which started it.
I think that the government instead of slowing up on this work should go forward. I asked the minister the other night if he was aware of the number at Gravenhurst. Last

fall there were 28 ex-service men at Gravenhurst suffering from tuberculosis, who, not coming under a designation of the act, were therefore receiving no support or aid. It would be very difficult for any medical officer, no matter how experienced he was, to say whether the condition of those men was due to service or was not. I suppose that in some cases the cause could be assigned, in others it could not. I think it would be only fair on the government's part to continue that work. Like the member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Carroll) I believe that the government perhaps acted too quickly in the closing of these institutions, and I would like to think that they had given the matter serious consideration before taking that aetidn. Some institution such as the minister has spoken of to-day should be maintained in centres like Kingston, Toronto and London to provide for the treatment of men in those districts. Sydenham hospital at Kingston was closed up and the minister made arrangements for the treatment of certain cases in the two general hospitals while others were dragged away to Toronto and Ste. Anne's for treatment. Conditions are not the same as they were some years ago We can remember the time in this country when men would leave their families, go away to the bush for six or seven months and know that their families would be taken care of. To-day such charitable conditions do not prevail in the cities and when men leave their families to go to distant centres like Toronto or Montreal they do so with a good deal of apprehension, not knowing what will happen to their families. I think the department has been a little careless in this matter; they take a long time to answer some letters and frequently the member for the district has to intervene to hurry up the correspondence. In some cases I have known these men to be in the institutions several months without any report being given or diagnosis made to determine whether or not they were getting any aid. The closing of Sydenham was just as much a hardship as this. Sydenham hospital was closed for two reasons. The first was, I think, that in that hospital there was a more favourable diagnosis of the cases than there was at some other places. In some instances I have had to check up the department in this respect. One instance I have in mind was a case in which the X-ray examination showed a very grievous condition. The man was sent to Toronto where men less favourable to the patient gave a less favourable report, which made a great deal of difference in his treatment. The second

Supply-Re-establishment
reason for the closing of Sydenham was pretty much a political reason. In the last election I secured a majority at Sydenham and the minister was besieged with correspondence to allow it to go and with requests also to remove the medical officers from the work- one officer in particular, Dr. Mundell, who on many occasions had been mentioned as the probable Liberal candidate but who for personal reasons supported me. This medical officer had given very long service to this country, first in the medical corps, then in the organization of the signal corps, and his boy came with me as a private to the Great War. For these personal reasons he gave me his support, and of course the minister was at once requested to behead him, which he did.
Before the Mowat hospital is closed I would like the minister to take into consideration the condition in which the men will be left. I pointed out to him at the time of the closing of Sydenham that the treatment in the military hospitals and the hospitals of the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment was different from that given in the general hospitals. The men are more at home in their own hospitals, and that psychological effect upon the men means a great deal in their treatment. I will admit that in general the treatment given by the department in their hospitals has been good and that complaint has arisen only in isolated cases. The trouble with the medical men is that they have made diagnoses in the past; they have got into a rut, and they are not big enough to admit their mistakes. Let me give you two examples. I have a picture here that I will send over to the minister, relating to a case which I had to force the department to consider. That is the picture of a young boy, the last of four sons of a Kingston family. The boy was in camp with me twice when very young; I never knew him to be sick in his life. He went overseas, reached England just about the time the war closed, and returned with an affection which developed just as the minister sees in that picture. The departmental headquarters refused to have anything to do with this case, but finally they were forced to take him in. He was sent to Sydenham and Toronto, and he died last year. Although there were three other boys he was the only support of his father and mother and he died without any help being given by the department. That case was seen by the medical men and it should have moved the heart of anybody to give him some assistance. Another case was one of rheumatism from 168i
which heart trouble developed. The young man was in hospital for treatment but was sent home, according to headquarters, because nothing more could be done for him. I visited the home of that man and I never saw a home so pitiful in my life. It was a straight case of heart disease resulting from rheumatism. They were finally forced to take him into hospital, where he died three weeks after admission. The report given on that case by medical men of the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment was that it was a new disease. But as I say it was nothing more than heart trouble following on rheumatism. My experience has, possibly, brought more of these ex-service men to me for help than to any other member of the House. In many cases I s.aw them at the front, I have seen them at home in the hospitals and 1 have had a great deal to do with them. Now, what is the trouble? The trouble is that the majority of the men are being well looked after and well cared for by this government. But, unfortunately, there is now a small minority of cases that have been diagnosed first one way and then another by the department, and because a mistake was made in the first place, they are not big enough to say now, "Here, we made a mistake," unless you absolutely force them to admit it with a heap of witnesses and other evidence. I admit that those who get treatment get good treatment, but I am going now to give what I think are a few of the troubles which no regulation and no appeal board seems to correct. They show what I would call a lack of sympathy in their attitude towards the men. They will tell you, and we have heard this on the committee very many times, that they are giving the men the benefit of the doubt. Well, I contend that the benefit of the doubt can only be given if in the case of two doctors differing, the man receives help in some way. But they do not give him the benefit of the doubt. If the department's doctor has given an opinion, no matter what the age and the experience of the doctor on the outside, the opinion of the department's doctor goes, and the man gets no benefit. I could give many instances of that. I think the trouble is that the doctors who are dealing with these cases at headquarters have not the experience they should have. I have asked some questions in regard to the medical men who are advising the department to-day. You would expect that they would be men of some length of experience, but what do you find? I asked the board for the length of service, the war record of
Supply-Re-establishment

these men, and I ascertained that out of nine advisers the chief one is an eye specialist. Now this is not the man to whom they refer their eye cases in Toronto. If the man comes down here he is generally referred to Dr. Courtenay. This chief adviser is an eye specialist, not a general service man. There are two others who were not graduates in medicine at the time of the war, but who have since graduated, and that is their only experience. Now these are not the men who should advise against men of long service. Let me give you an example. I have repeatedly taken the advice of Dr. W. T. Connell, of Kingston. This man was for years the pathologist at Queen's University, a man known as a pathologist not only in Canada but all over the United States, one of the big men in the medical line in Canada. To-day he is at the head of Medicine at Queen's University. Now that man's opinion is constantly being contradicted by men who have graduated since the war, and who have had no other experience, and I think that is one reason why the men who have disabilities suffer.
There are two or three very particular cases that I would like to take up, just to show how the opinions of these men collide. There is the case of a man who enlisted in Chicago in the last year of the war. He came over to Canada, went overseas, and returned with a nerve disability. The man cannot do any work. He had no disability of this kind when he went overseas, but he has this disability now. Now, you can see, it becomes a matter of opinion as between neurologists, one neurologist saying that this man's disability must be due to a sickness which occurred on service, and the other saying that he can find no connection whatever; it is simply a matter of opinion. Finally I got the reason of the man whose opinion was taken. He said that as the arm showed no lessening in size and so on, therefore the trouble could not amount to anything. But here is a man who was well when he went overseas, and who was returned with this disability, and to-day he is walking the streets. The minister and his department have known that eases of this kind have existed for over a year, and yet no recommendation has been brought in as to how they are going to take care of such cases in the future. Let me add that this man on Christmas Day was asked by some ex-service men if he had any place to go to. Having none, but being ashamed to say No, he said, Yes, he had a good place to go to, and he walked the streets all day. We have tried to keep him in the hospital and

help him outside the hospital as well. Now a case of this kind does more harm to the department than- can be offset by the thousands of cases where they give good treatment. I do not like to bring the thing up as a straight criticism of the department, because I find the department doing a great many things to help; but there is no question that a mistake was made in regard to this man at the beginning; and men like Dr. Connell, who hrs observed this man for over two years and is satisfied that he has a case, have to see their opinion thrown on the scrap heap and the advice of the younger man taken.
There is another thing that causes a lot of trouble. The department answer you, very often, according to some record they have on the man's file, a record that perhaps shows the man misbehaved at some time; and that has a lot to do with the attitude they take towards him. Let me give the House one or two examples of what I mean. About two years ago I took up with the department here the case of a young fellow who had come into Kingston off the farm where he had worked about a year. That man has a great wound over the sciatic nerve; so that he has what is known to medical men as a drop foot; but it has been repaired to a certain extent. After working on the farm for about a year he came into Kingston to get some treatment or help of some kind. I wrote to the department, because the man had obtained no answer in regard to his case. In their first letter to me the department said that this man was a bootlegger. I took all the means I could of investigating that charge, and found that there was no justification for it whatever. Then I wrote the department and asked them to confirm their charge that this man was a bootlegger, because if he was, I did not care to have much to do with him. They answered that they could not understand why they had made such a charge; there was no evidence against the man. The facts were that this man had been sent to work with his brother-in-law, and they had had a quarrel, and now he was thrown back on the hands of the department. I investigated the charge and found there was no ground for it. About two pages of foolscap were occupied with apologies and expressions of surprise at how this second charge came to be instituted. It was a shame that that man was allowed to engage in farm work. Crippled as he was, with dragging feet how was it to be expected that he could make his way across ploughed fields or fields of stubble? Yet that was the kind of treatment meted out to this man who went overseas and fought for his country.

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Another thing in regard to these cases: Unless the medical officer has experience and knows what relation the injury has to the man's ability to work, great injustice is likely to be suffered by the latter. A physician who would make a report on this kind of case and expect the person to go out and work on a farm must have had very little experience in the ability of a man with such an injury to obtain work.
Some time ago a case was brought up of a man who had received a wound in the back that penetrated through to the front, producing a scar of fully twelve inches, with a great amount of injury to the tissues. Now, that man was supposed to be suffering from only fifteen per cent disability whereas it was a matter for wonder that he could work at all. The opinion of practitioners of experience should be obtained in such cases instead of applying to men who have only graduated since the war. Some of these men went overseas as corporals and sergeants, and afterwards were sent; back to complete their medical studies. Instead of employing persons of such limited experiences as that, as I pointed out last year, the department should secure the biggest medical men obtainable in Canada for the treatment of these afflicted soldiers.
Now, as to the treatment of tubercular cases: Instead of abandoning this work the department should extend the regulations so as to take in cases with which they do not deal at the present time. I maintain that before finally disposing of the Mowat sanatorium, which is one of the two special treatment hospitals, the department should go further into the matter and see whether or not the operations of such institutions should not be extended, not left to a small group of men and women who are sacrificing a great deal to carry on this work at the present, time.
In the next place I think the department should cut out one feature to be found in its regulations in regard to the treatment of disabilities other than those produced by war. The minister and his deputy are well acquainted with the case I am going to describe. It was that of a man who had a disability of so much per cent arising from varicose veins and hernia produced by the war. This man was getting on very well, with his pension and the work he had to do:	He was a gardener and was making a
very good living. One day he reported for examination before the department. He was taken to Sydenham hospital, but a fire occurred and he was sent from there to St.
Anne's, Montreal. There without consulting him they operated twice on his feet for overlapping toes, a condition that was not specially due to war. It was a condition with which the authorities should not have interfered at all. If they did not operate for a condition not due to war then the question of responsibility properly arose. This man, as I say, had a small pension and at first was able to work. But they operated twice on his teet, and the result is that his toes are absolutely rigid. He cannot work, he can get no employment whatever, and the department refuses to accept any responsibility for his case. The man was removed to St. Anne's away from his home and family, away from any of his relatives or friends with whom he could consult. These two operations were performed and to-day his case is absolutely hopeless. He cannot walk, his toes are rigid and stiff as a result of these two operations, and whenever he tries to walk he falls down. That is another case of the kind I am describing. It is a case which does more harm to the department than thousands of good cases in which benefit has resulted to the persons concerned. I am told that in this particular case only intervention prevented a third operation. At any rate the man was sent home helpless to his family.


Mr. PRITCHARD:: Did that man, that
bootlegger, to whom you referred get any pension when he was on the farm? And the man you spoke of afterwards who was injured -what pension did he get?


Arthur Edward Ross: After a great deal of insisting the man who worked on the farm for a year or so was given a pension.


John Pritchard: But the man who
was working on the farm-did he get any pension while he was on the farm?


Arthur Edward Ross: No, he was supposed to be all right. I was forced to take his case up and not until after that was he granted better treatment. This is what I am complaining about. I say there is a lack of sympathy and a lack of interest in these cases. To such an extent does that prevail that we have to take these cases up and argue with the department before we can get any action in the desired direction. The department's attitude toward many of these men seems to be 4 p.m. one of suspicion. And yet it has treated men whose cases I would not take up, and has failed to treat others whose cases are most worthy. Some of the latter cases have only been dealt with after
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lengthy and insistent correspondence. The man I was talking of continued to work on the farm until he could work no longer, but he could not get the desired aid until I took his case up. But the pension allowance of the other man was only a small one of ten or fifteen dollars. To-day he is absolutely helpless. Before that he supported himself and family through 'his occupation as a gardener. At the present time he is not able to get outside of the house because of his repeated falls.
There are a great many other cases that would be a source of surprise to the House if they were taken up, but the instances cited will serve to show what is going on. I think the department should be actuated by these principles:	In the first place it should take
more interest in each case. In the next place the correspondence should be speeded up a little more, and a diagnosis made more quickly. I have a case in mind where no diagnosis was made. After the man was taken to St. Anne's the woman was left without any support whatever and she is to-day a mental wreck. Not until after a lapse of two months was a payment made of $2 a day. In the next place, I hold that those who have to decide upon the cessation of pensions should be men of greater experience than those now charged with that duty.


Mr. SHAW:: I hesitate to discuss at all any question involving medical knowledge; but I want to bring to the attention of the minister the case of an ex-soldier,-and I shall have no hesitation in mentioning his name, because the case has been the subject of comment in the public press. I do this for the purpose of indicating what appears to me to be in some way or another a lack of co-ordination or cooperation amongst the various bodies concerned with the welfare of disabled soldiers. This soldier had his case considered by the Great War Veterans' Association, and I asked the secretary of that association to give me a memorandum detailing the facts. The soldier's name is H. S. Liddell:
This man enlisted in the 181st Battalion on May 29, 1916, at Brandon, Manitoba. He was aged 39, and it was subsequently discovered that he had suffered mental disturbances on two occasions prior to enlistment. He served with the Canadian Expeditionary Force approximately three years of which eleven and oneehalf months were spent in France. Liddell came to Canada in February 1910, and made homestead entry. Upon discharge from the Canadian Expeditionary Force in June, 1919, he made an effort to resume farming activities. His mother joined him during the

same year, but found to her amazement that her son was not mentally competent. His condition rapidly grew worse until it became necessary to report him to the authorities.
Within eleven months after discharge, in May, 1920, he was placed under treatment by the Department of Soldiers' Civil Reestablishment, finally being committed to Selkirk asylum. He was released on probation in April, 1921, while under observation during this outbreak, he was examined and reported upon by a number of medical men, at least three of whom were mental specialists. It was unanimously agreed that this condition had been aggravated by service to the extent of 25 per cent. The department accepted responsibility for treatment and awarded allowances to the dependent mother.
In August, 1922, it was reported that Liddell had suffered another outbreak, necessitating institutional care. On this occasion, the department denied all responsibility stating that the disability was of a constitutional nature, and that there had 'been no mental episode recorded on service'; a finding quite contradictory to the original finding upon which treatment had been awarded. The mother was given employment escorting a female patient to England. During her absence in England and without her knowledge, the son was deported. Since that time, she has been in Canada in destitute circumstances and conflicting reports have been received about the welfare of Liddell himself in England. In any event, it is quite clear from medical evidence that he is not mentally stable, although, I understand, he is of a quiet disposition.
I am frank to say that these matters have been brought to the attention of the minister on several occasions, I believe. The deputy minister and the director of medical services have always been insistent that the department could not accept responsibility for institutional care, for the reasons already stated. The minister, however, finally concurred in an order for repatriation. ,
Meanwhile, the case was brought to appeal before the appeal board and in 'December, 1923, the appeal of the soldier was sustained. A special appeal was made to the minister by the representatives of the Great War Veterans' Association that, in view of the destitution of the mother, the department should not exercise its right to enter re-appeal. It was pointed out that a reasonable doubt in favour of the appellant had been established. On December 19, 1923, however, the department was committed by the deputy minister to reappeal. In the meantime, the minister was good enough to provide that special relief be

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extended to the mother. As it was evident that several months would elapse before a quorum of the board could be assembled in Winnipeg, the soldiers' adviser waived the right of personal appearance on behalf of Mrs. Liddell and deputized Mr. MacNeil, in this city to act on her behalf at the hearing of the re-appeal. The re-appeal was heard in Ottawa on January 31, 1924, and was rejected, judgment being given in favour of the appellant, that is the soldier, on February 7, 1924. Again, the department was urged to take immediate action to afford Mrs Liddell relief by adjustment of pay and allowances for which her eligibility had been established by the appeal board.
Steps were then taken to determine whether or not pension was indicated as apparently medical treatment was not necessary at all times. Inquiry was made of the Board of Pension Commissioners as to whether or not judgment of the appeal board respecting the eligibility for medical treatment would be accepted in regard to award of pension. On March 29th, however, the board gave the decision:	Refusing pension
payments to this soldier on the ground that his mental condition existed prior to enlistment, was wilfully concealed on enlistment and was aggravated during service to a negligible extent only. I am informed that the form in which the decision of the Board of Pension Commissioners was given has prevented any further appeal in the matter of pension before the federal appeal board. Aggravation is assumed, but it is described as negligible, and there is no appeal.
The thing that the ordinary individual cannot understand, at least that I cannot understand, is this. This man was accepted for service. If he were mentally unfit, it is a wonder at the time of examination for service that fact was not discovered by the Militia department's officers. The man, it was said, wilfully concealed these facts, but at the same time I presume the man was quite satisfied with his medical condition. He certainly would not go abroad parading his insanity before the public. All the difficulties-the attitude of the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment in constantly referring this matter back, seeking apparently any avenue of excuse in order to escape payment and the failure of the Board of Pension Commissioners to accept the final judgment of the appeal board in the matter and suggesting that the aggravation, if any, due to service, was only negligible, thus denying the right of the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment at the outset to pay any
compensation whatever, are things which, frankly, I do not understand. It seems to me that if the minister has not already considered these matters, steps should be taken to co-ordinate these departments and to get them working together. I understand that a soldier may receive pay and allowances and treatment from the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment, but that when he comes to the pension board to ask for a pension, it is like going to an entirely different government. He has to make a new appeal. The pension board do not recognize,-I am informed; I do not know- that there is such a thing as the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment. There must be something wrong which allows a case, particularly of this character, to go on in the condition in which it has gone on for so many months and finally to wind up with a soldier in this country being deported, I presume, as an undesirable, and his mother being deported also in order to be with her son. I do not mention these facts in a spirit of criticism; I draw this matter to the attention of the minister and the committee which is considering soldiers' problems simply because if these facts are true-and they are given to me as true-they are disgraceful and should not be tolerated for a single moment.


Arthur Edward Ross: The hon. member
says the department treats this case as one in which there was mental deficiency prior to enlistment. I know of two similar cases. Is that the attitude the department takes?


Joseph Tweed Shaw: I have a copy of the letter written by the secretary of the Board of Pension Commissioners from which 1 read:
The decision of the board is that this man's mental condition existed prior to enlistment, was wilfully concealed on enlistment and was aggravated during service to a negligible extent only. Pension payments cannot, therefore, be made to this soldier.


Mr. MacLAREN:: Before referring to the question of hospital administration I take this opportunity of joining with the minister, who I feel sure is of the same view as myself, in the regret we all feel at losing only yesterday one of the efficient officers of the department; I refer to Dr. J. A. McCarthy, superintendent of the Lancaster hospital. As the minister and, I have no doubt, his department, know, he was a well-trained, efficient and capable officer, combining with his professional attainments a delightful charm of manner, a ready sympathy and a kind heart which altogether made him a most excellent superintendent of Lancaster hospital.
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I desire to say just a few words on the question of hospital administration more particularly in view of statements that have been made in the early part of this year concerning the suggested change of policy of the department which would remove from the executive head of the hospitals the medical professional men who now serve as superintendents and replace them by laymen, I cannot say to what extent this new policy has been carried out nor to what extent, indeed, it has been decided upon. I believe the committee will be interested in hearing from the minister on this point. I understand, however, that in the case of Ste. Anne de Bellevue hospital a layman has been appointed as superintendent in place of the medical man who formerly had charge of the institution. In any case this policy has created considerable unrest among medical officers in the Dominion and in the medical profession generally. I was asked to attend1 a meeting which was held in February of this year to consider the question, and I believe that similar meetings have been held in various parts of the Dominion. The meeting crystallized its action in a telegram which was sent to the minister (Mr. Belaud), and various other ministers of the government, as well as to the director of medical services. This telegram, which is dated February 5, of this year and despatched from St. John, New Brunswick, reads:
At a meeting of the medical profession held in St. John, New Brunswick, February 5, 1924, Doctor J. H. Allingham, president of New Brunswick Medical Association being in the chair, the following resolution was adopted.
"It having been brought to the attention of the medical profession that it is the intention of the gov-vemment to make an alteration in the form of management of the D.S.C.It. whereby the supreme authority shall be placed in the hands of laymen in the administrative department and that the office of the medical superintendent in hospitals is about to bp abolished and laymen appointed in their places, the profession desires to place upon record its entire disapproval of any such proposed action feeling that it will strike at the root of medical efficiency in the treatment of returned soldiers without presenting any compensatory returns."
E. J. Ryan.
Similar action I understand was taken in other parts of the country in reference to this matter and I hope that the minister will give us some information as to what, if any, change has taken place in the policy of the department in view of this representation which has been submitted to him.
My attitude has been, and is, favourable towards the department, because in the first place I think this is due the department, and secondly, because I feel that one must 
be very careful not to impair the confidence of the men receiving treatment from the department unless it is well established that there exists grounds for criticising that treatment. On the whole I do not criticise it, and I do not refer to the matter with a view to condemning the department, that is not my attitude; I believe it is my duty to maintain the confidence of the men in the department. Here, however, is a question that does affect the treatment of the soldiers. If it be true that it is proposed to put laymen in charge of these institutions then, though possibly we may be engaging men at a smaller salary, we are certainly appointing those who cannot have the same intimate knowledge of the subject and who naturally therefore must be less capable than the professional men who formerly, and still to a considerable extent have had charge of the hospitals. My view is that in the diminution of officials in the Department of Soldiers' Civil Reestablishment the extra professional members of the staff should be the first to go; and as the lessening process continues the dismissals should be made from the non-professional rather than from the professional side. The question must always necessarily be a medical one, and largely so. Whatever the size of the department may be at any particular time, the work must be pre-eminently of a medical nature. So that I urge the minister to consider this question seriously; for while I agree that it is proper to reduce the staff as far as it is necessary to do so, I am strongly of the opinion that those who are allowed to go should be selected from among the non-professional members of the staff.


Robert James Manion: be doing a very good work if he instituted a thorough investigation and cleared up the matter to the satisfaction of the people.
I wish for a few moments to touch upon another side of this question which has been raised already by my hon. friend from Kingston (Mr. Ross) and the hon. member for West Calgary (Mr. Shaw) in regard to the occasional case which does not seem to get justice. I admit that the large proportion of cases are well treated, in this regard I agree with the hon. members for Kingston, West Calgary and St. John (Mr. MacLaren); but it is certainly true that every now and then cases do arise, such as those quoted, which cause a terrible feeling of unrest and discontent among our returned soldiers. It does appear to me from my own personal experience that sometimes some of the high-up medical officials of the department-not all of them by any means-do not seem to give the sympathy that such cases merit. The minister perhaps will remember a case with respect to which I wrote him for nearly a year and a half, the case of Charles McAvella, in fact I took it up on the floor last year. At that time no satisfaction had been given. Finally, after a year and a half of correspondence, the medical officer in whose hands the case rested consented to quit hunting up evidence against the man and to permit his treatment in hospital. I use the words advisedly, because that is exactly what occurred; instead of looking at the case in a sympathetic way it was regarded from a coldblooded business standpoint. Not only that, but in the replies to me the minister gave quotations from statements by his medical officers which were absolutely untrue-I do not mean on the minister's part, but on the part of the medical officers. For instance, the minister was advised that there had been no evidence that the man's disability was due to service at the front. But I had placed upon record, and he had in his hands, evidence not only from men like myself-and I flatter myself that I can give a fair medical opinion, after twenty years' experience-but also from a medical man in Fort William and from Dr. Herbert Bruce, one of the best known surgeons iD the Dominion of Canada, who was of the same opinion.


Mr. CARROLL:: The hon. gentleman says that an official of the department advised the minister that there was no such evidence filed?


Robert James Manion: The minister stated in
a letter to me that that was the statement given to him by this high-up official in his department. I do not know that he said

there was no such evidence on file, but the statement was that there was no medical evidence, and he quoted the statements of members of the medical profession in Winnipeg and Ottawa who held a different view. I do not dispute for a minute that the doctors who gave that opinion had the right to do so; I do not claim there was anything like a fifty per cent chance that this man's injury was due to war service. But I have the opinion of a well known doctor of Fort William, a man of twenty-five or thirty years' experience, and of Dr. Herbert Bruce of Toronto, an outstanding surgeon of this country. It is true that all he had before him was my letter explaining the case, but I explained it fairly, and the reply of this high-up medical official was that Dr. Bruce did not know the facts. In other words, his whole attitude was one of searching for possibilities of turning down the case. The man is to-day in the department's hospital at Winnipeg, and he is not getting pay and allowances. He wrote me recently asking me to take up his case, and I told him to take it up himself with the department; that I had made a hard fight even to get treatment and that I did not feel like making much more of a fight unless he took the matter up with the department himself. I presume he has done so; I do not know. The point I am trying to make is that in cases of this kind, where there is some doubt, even if there is a twenty-five per cent doubt, a twenty per cent or even a smaller doubt, if it costs this country a few hundred thousand dollars more for cases like this through some little injustice it is far better to do a little injustice to the treasury than to do an injustice to some individual soldier who has returned from the front. I offer these suggestions in the very best spirit and not with any desire to make political capital either for myself or against anyone. I offer them with a sincere desire, which I know is shared by every man in this House, the minister included, to improve the department in every possible way.
I wish to refer to another point touched upon by the hon. member for Kingston (Mr. Ross) though he did not quite take the attitude that I would take upon it. I was looking up some of my notes at the time and I did not quite catch the whole case, but it was to the effect, I think, that some man's pension had been interfered with because he was bootlegging. Was that not it?


Arthur Edward Ross: They refused to
consider the case because there was something on his file about being engaged in bootlegging.

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Robert James Manion: That ia what I wish to
touch upon. I have as much respect for the law, I think, as any ordinary Canadian has, but I do not think the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment or the Board of Pension Commissioners are a moral squad in this country. I do not care whether the man was bootlegging or not, or what he was doing, they have no right under any circumstances to cut off his pension for that reason. Now I am going to put myself on record, and I do not care whether it offends the uplifting forces of this country or not; that is my attitude on the subject. I have here another case I would like to put before the minister. It is really a pension case, but of exactly the same type, only it was a charge of immoral life against a woman which, it is claimed, was disproved. The case may be cleared up now, but I have a whole file of letters in regard to it.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Is that a Winnipeg case?


Robert James Manion: Yes. Is it cleared up?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Not that I know of.


Robert James Manion: Would the minister prefer that I deal with this case later, or would he like me to state it now and get done with it?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Let us have it now.


Robert James Manion: I wish to submit again
that I have never been able to understand
how it can be the business of the pension board or of the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment to look into the moral character of some poor chap who comes back from the front. Suppose a man has lost his leg at the front-


Mr. PUTNAM:: Do they make any distinction in the army?


Robert James Manion: No, not a bit. If a man
was the worst criminal unhanged but was a good soldier he was accepted, unless he committed some crime while in service that interfered with his duties. In fact, I may go further and say that some of the best soldiers I met over there were men who had been discredited at home. What I was going to say was this:	Suppose a man comes back
from the front with a leg off. He is having a hard time to earn a living. He gets a pension of say, $40 a month, which is obviously not enough to live on, and he decides to do what thousands of people in this province are doing-bootlegging.


William F. Carroll: Respectable people.


Robert James Manion: Yes, and respectable
people, as my hon. friend says,-good church people; I know lots of them who are very regular in attendance at church and who are bootlegging. I do not see that it is any business of this government to investigate a man's activities, we will say, in bootlegging, if that happens to be the species of trade he takes up. If he is trying to earn a living in that way I do not see that he is any worse than thousands of other people in this province, some of them parading the tens of thousands they have made in this manner.
I think I have made myself clear enough on that point.
As to the case I was going to submit to the minister, I will barely mention it because it has not come under my direct attention. If it has not been settled I should like to draw it to the attention of the minister with a view to his taking it up and trying to have it settled one way or the other. I have the file containing many letters and telegrams in regard to the case. I will read simply one telegram. The letters are all along the same line, and they are from various war veterans' associations. The telegram is from the War Veterans' Association in the town of Barwick, Ontario, in my own riding, but I have also letters from Winnipeg, Fort William, Port Arthur and many other places. It is signed by Thomas Hood, secretary of the Barwick branch of the Great War Veterans' Association, and is as follows:
Beseech your assistance in case of-
Then follows the number and the name, but I do not think I will give them. If the minister wishes it I can give them to him privately.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I know the name.


Robert James Manion: -deceased, widow's pension-
That is, the pension of the widow of the deceased.
-discontinued November 1922 tor alleged immorality. Winnipeg office Pension Board have conducted repeated investigations and fully satisfied suspicions groundless. Commissioners stubbornly refuse to reinstate pension. Widow is nearly fifty years old, frail, in ill health and entirely destitute. Drastic action by yourself and others only remedy. We ask you to demand dismissal of present Board of Pension Commissioners.
I am not going so far as that, but I certainly ask, without personally knowing anything about the case, that the minister take it up, if he has not already done so, and have it thoroughly investigated with a view to seeing that justice is done.

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In closing, then, I repeat that any remarks I have made have not been presented with any ulterior motive, but simply with that desire which I am sure we all have, to improve in every possible way this department which should be dear to the hearts of all Canadian people.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Mr. Chairman, just a
word in reply to the remarks that have been made by the hon. member for Kingston, the hon. member for West Calgary, the hon. member for St. John, and the hon. member who has just taken his seat (Mr Manion). I may say that I am accepting the remarks that have been made in the spirit in which they have been presented to the House. I realize that it 'is constructive criticism of a work which everybody will admit is extremely involved and difficult.
A number of individual cases have been referred to. Undoubtedly more individual cases could be cited to the House as an example either of lack of efficiency or lack of sympathy on the part of medical officials and other officials of the department. It is very true, as has been properly stated by the hon. member for Kingston, that one case of hardship draws more criticism and causes more discontent amongst the population than a thousand cases which are dealt with satisfactorily. If the committee will bear with me for a moment I will just give a few figures, from memory, to show to what an extent the work of this department is carried on. The department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment has to-day on its books 63,000 pensioners; 43,000 soldiers who are suffering from a disability are receiving a pension, and in round figures 20,000 dependents, mainly widows and widowed mothers. So that if you should find in this country fifty cases of men or widows who are refused pensions, it would not be such a very large proportion compared with the total number who have been awarded a pension. I agree entirely with what has been said, that if it is at ail possible, no mistake should be made, no injustice, not even the slightest, should be done by the department. This figure I have given, 63,000, represents only pensioners. Consider also, for a moment, the number of men who are treated in one year. Leaving aside the 3,360 men who are now receiving active treatment in hospitals, the department has treated 167,000 times during the year men who have seen service at the front or who have been engaged in the army in any branch. So that in the treatment section also, if a few men are refused treatment when they claim they

are entitled to it, though it is regrettable if an injustice is done, the proportion refused treatment compared with the total number who have received fair treatment is not in any way too large. But still my efforts have been directed always towards this goal, that any man who has the remotest ground upon which to base a claim for pension or treatment should receive pension or treatment.
Now let us make a distinction between the Board of Pension Commissioners and the department itself, that is, that part of the department which deals with treatment. The Board of Pension Commissioners is a tribunal constituted by a statute of this parliament as an independent tribunal, as independent of me, or for that matter of you, Mr. Chairman, and the members of this House, as the Supreme Court of Canada. I cannot direct, and no minister before me could, and if the statute is not changed, no minister after me can, direct the board to award or refuse a pension, or to increase or decrease a pension. It is absolutely beyond me.


Arthur Edward Ross: Will the minister
permit questions as he goes along; otherwise certain points may be lost sight of. We are. I think, proceeding in a good-natured way.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Certainly, at any time.


Arthur Edward Ross: The Board of Pension Commissioners, of course, has the decision, but it is made on the advice of these medical men, and these nine men that I refer to are serving the Board of Pension Commissioners and also the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment, with the exception of the units. I was directing my criticism to that.


Henri Sévérin Béland: There are a number of
medical men, of course, who, as my hon. friend suggests, have to do with both the treatment section and the pension section, but the Board of Pension Commissioners have a body of medical men to themselves, with which I have nothing to do in any way, shape or form; there are nine of them, I think.


Arthur Edward Ross: These are the nine I spoke of?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Exactly; we have nothing
to do with the medical advisers of the Board of Pension Commissioners. They select their own advisers, and out of deference to them I never interfere with their selections. I coud not impose on them a medical man as their adviser. They are an independent tribunal, and they have nine medical men

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But outside of these nine medical men who are attached to the board, there are a number of medical men in every great city of Canada, and here at headquarters, over whom I have some jurisdiction. I could remove them all;
I could replace them all; but I may say that since I have been in that department I do not think I have changed five of these men. They were there before, and if I am well informed, and I am subject to correction by my hon. friend, they are amongst the most outstanding in the medical profession of Canada. Just for the sake of enlightening the committee, I will give the names of a few of the men who are consulted in Toronto in connection with the disabilities and diseases of soldiers. I have here the list. I do not know any of these men personally, but I am told that they are among the most outstanding medical men in the city of Toronto. There are for instance, Dr. Martin, Dr. Curtis, Dr. Gilchrist, Dr. Fletcher, Dr. Norwich, Dr. Starr, Dr. Boyer, Dr. Pentecost, Dr. Ryerson, Dr. Shenstone, Dr. Maclaurin, Dr. Gunn, Dr. Cole, Dr. Murray, Dr. Clare, Dr. Lemesurier. These men have their specialties. Some of them are medical advisers, some are surgeons, some neurologists, some nose and throat specialists, some chest specialists, exclusively, and so on. I have many times myself asked the director of medical services, "You rely upon the opinion of these men, but are they outstanding in their profession, are they absolutely reliable in a professional sense?" And every time the answer given me was: "These men are amongst the most prominent of the profession," and I have never heard anything to the contrary. I agree with my hon. friend from Kingston that the medical gentleman to whom he referred is also an outstanding specialist in Kingston.


Arthur Edward Ross: I suppose the minister understands my criticism. It was the opinion of this outstanding man who went up to the board that was turned down by men who did not have anything like his experience.


Henri Sévérin Béland: No doubt some of these
cases happen, and I regret that, as my hon. friend does, but all I can do is to direct the criticism to the board, and they say to me as they would say to my hon. friend if he were the minister, "You have no jurisdiction; we are interpreting the statute."


Robert James Manion: That is true of the pension board, but not of the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am coming to that.
When treatment is refused to a man we are
entirely responsible. If a mistake has been made in refusing treatment to a returned soldier, I am to blame, or my officials under me, and I suppose I am responsible for them, though I must admit that only a very small proportion of individual cases come before the minister; but however small is that proportion, there is not one day in the year but I examine personally ten different files, and as my hon. friend (Mr. Manion) who has had experience in this line knows, it is extremely long, involved, and intricate work to draw a file, which may be two inches thick. Well, we have to go into them. I have been delving into them day after day, and I think in most cases we have been able to adjust matters. As I said a year ago, medical science is not exact, and it will take a long time before it is exact. It has nothing in common with mathematics. Doctors disagree, and it is exceedingly difficult in some cases to say in any definite manner that a man is suffering from a disability that is related to his war service. In every case my instructions have been to this effect:	Where there is a doubt, give
treatment, if not with pay and allowances, without pay and allowances. We have some jurisdiction in this connection. We have a large number of men who are under treatment without pay and allowances, because there is nothing which would indicate that their malady or their disease is related to their war service, except in a very remote manner, and the consensus of medical opinion is that it is not related to service.


Robert James Manion: I agree that there are cases such as the minister speaks of, and this one I cited was one of them which probably should have been given treatment on the off-chance that the disability was due to service. That was all I ever asked for, an investigation; I never asked for anything else. But the minister's officials took exactly the same stand in that case also-and that is the argument I am making. They not only took the same stand but misquoted me by stating that I had asked for pay and allowances when I never had done anything of the kind. In cases where doubt exists it should be the duty of the department to put the man in the hospital and give him a little treatment. After all, it only means a very small amount of money to the Dominion of Canada.


Henri Sévérin Béland: My hon. friend is quite right as regards the individual oases he has quoted. I remember very well the long correspondence there was in this particular case and ultimately, happily, I was induced
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to direct that this man should be treated. The opinion of Dr. Bruce was a very weighty one, and I came to the conclusion that we should yield. Very well, we have yielded.
Another case which has been brought to the attention of the committee is that of Liddell. I have not the file before me and have not looked at it for a long time. I knew the facts of the case perfectly at an earlier date, but I do not think I am 'thoroughly conversant with the circumstances at the moment. The case is a pathetic one inasmuch as the man was deported. Immediately I had learned of the deportation I took steps to have the Immigration department reconsider its decision. The department said the man had unwittingly been deported and his repatriation was ordered immediately, but he did not avail himself of the terms of the order. The widowed mother was awarded pay and allowances by the department and these were also made retroactive. I think we have adjusted this case. The question ' is asked why this man was refused treatment or a pension in the first place. Well, the refusal was based on the ground that before enlistment he suffered from the disabilities he was complaining of at the moment. That was the general ground for the refusal. Was the disability aggravated during service? Well, the Board of Pension Commissioners said no, or only to a negligible extent.


William F. Carroll: Was it not admitted that there was some aggravation of disability due to service and on that account was not a pension granted based on 25 per cent disability?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I was not aware of that. At any rate, the case has been adjusted. It is a pathetic ease and was the subject of a great deal of comment in conversation among the public and in the press.
Mr, ROSS (Kingston): Was the refusal of treatment in the 'Liddell case due to the fact that he was supposed to be mentally deficient previously?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes, that was a ground.


Arthur Edward Ross: The same as in
the Stoplin case. The department found the man a little deficient mentally but he was considered sane enough for service overseas. There were probably many others in the same condition, and I do not think it right to make that one of the reasons for a refusal to grant treatment or pension.


Henri Sévérin Béland: 
Murray MacLaren: Would he not have a
very general knowledge of all disease?


Henri Sévérin Béland: He would.


Murray MacLaren: Would he not have a
good deal more general and special knowledge than a layman?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Undoubtedly. I agree with my hon. friend in that regard, but he could not be a specialist in the three lines.


Arthur Edward Ross: I did not criticise that phase of the matter, although I have my own opinion. Where is the unit director?


Henri Sévérin Béland: In Montreal.


Arthur Edward Ross: And Ste. Anne is 18 or 20 miles out from Montreal?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes, about half an hour.


Arthur Edward Ross: Does the minister
consider that a pretty safe supervision, with that man twenty miles away? I admit that there is street railway service.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have examined this case pretty carefully.


Arthur Edward Ross: Is the unit medical director any more efficient than the superintendent of the hospital.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am coming to that in
a moment. This was a particular case and it was not a policy that I was inaugurating throughout the whole of Canada. It was a case that lent itself more than any other institution would do to this experiment. Captain Boyd lived in Ste. Anne; he could attend in the morning at the hospital, have a conference with the three or four medical men there, and in the afternoon he could discharge his duties in the unit office. That has been going on for the last three months with a good deal of satisfaction. He has reduced the staff expenditure, I understand, by $35,000 or $40,000 a year, and I am informed and, after having visited the hospital, I have been able to satisfy myself also, that the efficiency of the work has not at all suffered. There is an atmosphere of contentment in the hospital.


Arthur Edward Ross: Was the same proposal not considered as regards the Mowat sanatorium?


Henri Sévérin Béland: No. In connection with the Mowat sanatorium, the hon. member for Kingston, in his able criticism of our work, has asked us to consider the matter very carefully before we decide to close that institution. He pointed out that we had only two T.B. institutions under the department. That is true as regards institutions entirely operated by the department; but may I point out that we have patients in other institutions throughout Canada? For instance if we take only the largest, we have at Hamilton at a sanatorium called Mountain, 75 T.B. patients, that is, on the strength. We have at London, Ontario, in Byron Sanatorium, 144 ex-soldier
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patients suffering from tuberculosis. We have other institutions with a smaller number of tubercular patients. It is true, as my hon. friend has stated, that we have only two T.B. institutions operated by the department, one at Calgary and one at Kingston.. The intention was to release Mowat sanatorium, because the number of our patients there declines year by year, month by month. We have come down now to 91 patients and we thought that the expenditure of the department could be reduced if we closed the institution or surrendered it to its owners. I may mem tion that I had a conference yesterday with the President of the Health Association at Kingston, a gentleman with whom the hon. member for Kingston is well acquainted. He was in Ottawa, and I had a conference with the deputy minister, the director of medical services and himself. I think we shall be able to arrive at a satisfactory arrangement in this connection, an arrangement to which, I think, my hon. friend will be in a position to give his support. The details are not yet entirely worked out, but I presume everybody in Kingston will be satisfied, my hon. friend the first. It will be possible for the institution to remain going and, I think, to be improved in this regard; more civilians will be treated there and the department will not overlook the good services it could render in this connection.


Arthur Edward Ross: May I ask the name of the gentleman with whom the minister had the conference, or is it confidential?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Dr. Connell was the gentleman with whom we had a conference yesterday.


Mr. BEAUBIEN:: Did I understand the minister to say that he had no jurisdiction over the pension board?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes.


Charles-Philippe Beaubien: Is there any wtay of amending the act so that the minister would have some jurisdiction? In regard to the case in Winnipeg that the hon. member for Port William and Rainy River (Mr. Manion) mentioned, I have been to the minister and he tells me that he is without power. This woman has her pension cut off and she is charged with immoral conduct. So far as my information goes, that is absolutely wrong, the woman's character is above reproach. If the act is such that the minister has no jurisdiction and the pension board wants to be an autocratic body, there is no reason why this parliament should not amend the act so that cases of this kind may be reconsidered. In

this case they do not want to reinstate the pension although the woman's character has been defamed. There is no reason why the minister should not bring down the necessary amendments to meet this situation.


Henri Sévérin Béland: There is no doubt that any act at all is subject to change; parliament is all powerful and can pass or amend acts as it pleases. Parliament, no doubt, might decree that I should be the sole dispenser of pensions. But if parliament did that I would resign immediately, for I do not want to be Minister of Pensions. I have no jurisdiction in this particular, and frankly I think it is better that it should be so. I do not think that a minister of the Crown should have the sole power of determining whether any pension should be granted, because too many considerations of a personal and political nature might be introduced to interfere with the discharge of his responsibilities.


Charles-Philippe Beaubien: Not even after the
charge had been proved unfounded?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am coming to that. The case my hon. friend refers to is one that has been touched upon also by the hon. member for Fort William and Rainy River, and I am familiar with it. I am of the opinion that this pension should be reinstated and I have expressed that view to the Board of Pension Commissioners. They had information to the effect that the woman was living immorally and under the act they had power to suspend the pension. And this they did. Afterwards, a close investigation having been made by officials of the department and employees in Winnipeg, it was reported that the allegations appeared to be groundless, and it seems to me therefore that the pension should have been reinstated immediately. That it will be reinstated I have no doubt, although I have not received any information to the effect either that it has been refused or that it has been reinstated.


Robert James Manion: Will the minister look
that matter up to-night?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I will.


Henry Lumley Drayton: It has been a great pleasure to listen to the ingenious way in which the minister makes his explanations;
I want to congratulate him on the way he does it.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Thank you.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I regret, however, that there are not present more of his colleagues, who I am sure would benefit

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largely by paying close attention to the excellent performance of the Minister of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment; the hon. member would give a whole lot of them very useful instruction. It seems to me though that in some instances the minister might be more specific. We have heard of a case to-day which seems to be perfectly extraordinary; and while I would not want to trouble the minister with a request for specific details, it seems to me that if the rule as stated by the hon. member for Kingston (Mr. Ross) is applicable in the case of this gardener who had two operations performed upon him as a result of which he has lost his limbs, then a very serious hardship indeed exists. Simply because the loss by this man of the use of his limbs was not the result of war service, there is no reason why he should be entirely without recourse when he has been injured in this way through the carelessness or the malpractice of the department's doctors. If this rule is really the rule, it strikes me as being stupid, contrary to common sense and, what is more, inhuman. A man's usefulness in life is taken from him as a result of negligence, or worse, on the part of the doctors of the department, and I cannot see why in such circumstances he ought not to be looked after. Why, it is a most extraordinary situation, and my hon. friend has not dealt with it. Just consider the case for a moment. Here is a man who has served overseas and come back. He is suffering from some disability; he is working as a gardener in order to support himself and his family. In obedience to the rules of the department he is bound to report for inspection and for whatever other purpose the department may have in view. He is in receipt of a small pension by means of which, together with the proceeds of his work as a gardener, he is able to keep his family and support himself; and upon orders from the department he goes to the hospital. For what purpose? What is the underlying purpose? The real object is to cure him if possible so that he may no longer be a liability to the department. My hon. friend will correct me if I am wrong. That works a twofold benefit: if the man recovers he is of greater use to himself and the department is better off in consequence. Well, this man leaves his garden and puts himself in the hands of the departmental doctors; he has two operations and is discharged helpless. And then he is told that he has no possible remedy. I can hardly believe this to be true; indeed, I do not believe it is; it seems to me it could not possibly be so. The very 169
least that can be done for the man is to treat him with as much generosity as the present law will allow. See what the situation would be if this man had suffered similarly at the hands of private practitioners. He would be entitled to such damages as would take care of him for life; he would receive such an annuity as would enable him to live as nearly as possible in the condition he enjoyed before he was rendered useless as a result of malpractice on the part of the department's medical officers. I would ask the minister to look into the case carefully and to assure the committee that what has been cited to us as the rule of the department is not really true; so that when soldiers go to hospitals for treatment they will know that they are safe. If, on the instructions of the department, a man goes to a hospital to undergo an operation and the operation turns out a failure, surely that man should not be deprived of some compensation simply because the injury he sustains is not the result of war service, seeing that he has suffered in consequence of official malpractice. I hope the minister will reassure the committee on this point.


Henri Sévérin Béland: As a matter of principle
my hon. friend is right; if the department through its medical officers is responsible for any injury it should assume that responsibility. In this case however, if I am well informed, the man suffered from varicose veins and was brought to Ste. Anne de Bellevue hospital. There he was treated by Dr. Gurd of Montreal who, while I am not personally acquainted with him, is well known by repute, being an outstanding surgeon. He decided to operate on the man, but only after the man had given his full consent.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What would he know about it?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Perhaps he did not know very much; I agree with that. Whether the case has developed to such a pitiable extent or not, I am not aware. My hon. friend from Kingston says that the man is now unable to attend to the work which he was performing before. All I can say is that I shall make a note of the case and look into, it with every sympathy.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Will my hon.
frined also do a little more; will he find out whether there is a rule which says there is to be no liability on the department in such a case? It does seem to me that that is something which ought to be dropped.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I will.

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Henry Lumley Drayton: In other words, why should the returned soldier in going to a doctor be put in a worse position in respect to medical treatment-which certainly the country owes him-than the ordinary individual? We are not doing this as a matter of charity; we are doing it as the recognition of an absolute right that the soldier has. I hope the minister will see that that rule disappears. It is a bad rule, it is a rule which is very one-sided and very unfair, working against the man who cannot help himself. There is another thing I think the minister would be well advised to do-to assure the House that such a case will not happen again. He tells that the case of Liddell has now been satisfactorily arranged. The minister sees how much pain and suffering has been caused in that case. I hope he will give us to understand something which at any rate I thought we would have all understood, that a man who was good enough and sane enough to be taken as a Canadian soldier, can never be deported. I think the minister will agree with me at once that in such a case it is an absolute negation of everything which we can look upon as right to say that the man who was good enough to fight for Canada ought under any circumstances to be deported.


Henri Sévérin Béland: That is the view I have
taken.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I am quite sure the minister would. One other matter:	Is
the minister quite right when he says that there is no appeal from the pension board? I thought there was a right of appeal.


Henri Sévérin Béland: There is a court of appeal.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Certainly there
is this court of appeal. If the appeal court gives out a judgment in favour of the appellant, it is the duty of the board, as I understand it, to give effect to that judgment.


Henri Sévérin Béland: To carry it out.


Henry Lumley Drayton: And the right
to appeal still exists?


Henri Sévérin Béland: It does.


Arthur Edward Ross: Mr. Chairman, may I be permitted to refer again to one or two cases, because you will understand that if they go over now they remain over for a year? The minister has in mind the Cornish case to which I referred. The doctor at Sydenham refused to operate, and the man was taken down to St. Anne's, where he was without any person with whom he could consult when the

operation was performed. I made it a point to visit the man and the facts are as I stated. The department sent a nurse to the man, but whatever good she could do by her report I do not know. I do not mean to say that the inspection by a nurse-


Mr. LOVETT:: Could my hon. friend tell, me whether the toes were taken off both feet?


Arthur Edward Ross: I am replying now to a medical man. This soldier was taken to hospital for examination. He was operated on for varicose veins, and his condition was very much improved. When he was at Kingston the doctor refused to operate on his feet Later the man was removed to St. Anne's away from his people, and the doctors there thought they could improve the overlapping condition of both great toes by straightening them, but the operation was a failure; his toes are now rigid and he tumbles over when he attempts to walk. In fact he cannot even get out of his house. In the meantime the board got behind the technicality in the regulations which I think should be removed, and in this I think the minister will agree with me. The other point I desire to refer to is with regard to reports on file. The Liddell case was affected by such reports. But there are two other cases where the same thing occurred. One is the Duckett case. Let me repeat the circumstances. Duckett was a Scotchman and in 1913 and 1914 was working at a bakery. Then came a demand for help in the Glasgow naval yards. He went there and worked two years. Then came a demand for firemen on the convoys carrying Canadian soldiers overseas. He believed he could do better service by taking this more dangerous work. He worked as a fireman for two years, until a German torpedo blew up his boat. Then he decided he would quit firing and on his last trip to Canada he enlisted at Belleville. After a few weeks of training he had a slight hemorrhage, and upon examination was reported to be one hundred per cent unfit. How in the world he ever passed the doctors in the first place I do not know. He was given a pension. At the end of four years the board decided that they had made a mistake and withdrew his pension. There is the greatest amount of detail given in the file on that man's case-twice drunk in Mowat, disorderly and incorrigible, then taken out to the West, discontented, and so on. I admit the board has done a lot for Duckett in a way, but he has been treated most unfairly in other respects. For instance, take his discontent while in the West. He was there for seventeen months getting treatment

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for tuberculosis. His wife at Sydenham appealed to him to come home and take his treatment at Mowat. He made application and was refused. I have referred to the psychic effect on these patients while undergoing treatment. The appeal of his wife to come home, and the refusal of the authorities to allow him to go got on his nerves. He took his discharge and went home. Then it is entered in his file that he was very discontented! He was out there seventeen months, but there is nothing else against him. Yet the minister in his letter to me referred to the fact that there was this charge against the man of being discontented. What man would not be discontented who was refused permission to return home? We are told he was drunk once at Mowat. But why should these things be brought up when you want to treat such a man fairly? Away back in 1912 he had a gLand removed from the side of his neck. After that he was employed in a bake shop. I have here a certificate in reference to those two years of service showing not one sign of sickness. I have also a certificate of his health in the naval yards and his discharge from the boat after two years' service without any sign of ill health. He enlisted and two months after his service commenced he showed signs of tuberculosis. He gets a pension for four years, but it is cut off after he has started to build up a home. This is where I say there is an indication of a lack of soul, a lack of sympathy on the part of the department concerned. Then, there is a case similar to that mentioned by the hon. member for West Calgary (Mr. Shaw). In this case the man was mentally deficient. However, he enlisted and made a good soldier. He went over to England, where he was sick. Then there is some discussion as to his sickness; and he returns with a disability by which he is unable to take hold of anything with his right hand. On account of this mental deficiency at the beginning, he is said to be not entitled to anything at all. These are the cases which seem to indicate that there is a lack of co-ordination, a lack of sympathy, and it is not only on the part of the pension board; it is found also in the Department of Soldierfe Civil Re-establishment.


Robert James Manion: The minister pointed out, quite truthfully, that there has been a decrease in the expenses this year of well over $3,000,000. Thse are the main figures by which the expenditures have been decreased: care of patients, $900,000; treatment of patients, $1,000,000; hospitals, $525,000; train-169i
ing, $100,000; loans, $15,000; unemployment relief, $300,000; working capital, $150,000; liability compensation, $45,000; Federal Appeal Board, $207,000-the work of which, I suppose, is very nearly finished; publicity, $15,000; a total of $3,257,000, or well over 90 per cent of the total decrease. These figures indicate that the decreases are practically entirely because less money is being spent directly on the soldiers themselves. The administra/-tion decrease is only $275,000, approximately, or about 7 per cent of the decrease of $3,714,000 for the year in the estimates. I simply point this out to emphasize still more the necessity of the thorough investigation which the minister promised into the administration expenses of the department.


Murray MacLaren: With regard to the substitution of laymen for professional men in hospitals, I understood the minister to say that at Ste. Anne's the change was largely an experiment. Does the minister purpose repeating the experiment, or does he intend to continue the policy of having medical men in charge of these hospitals?


Henri Sévérin Béland: It is the intended policy
of the department to leave medical men at the head of hospitals.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Vocational expenses, $20,000.
Robert James Manion: Will the minister explain what that item is for?


Henri Sévérin Béland: This item is to provide vocational training for the men who still come under the provisions of the regulations. Candidates for vocational training could not avail themselves of the act after the first of February, 1920; only those who had been under treatment and were discharged from hospital could, receive vocational training subsequent to that date. The number of vocationally trained men has constantly decreased, the peak being in 1919, when the total was 23,000. On the 31st of December, 1923, we had only 101 in actual training.


Robert James Manion: So that by the end of this year this branch of the work will be practically closed out, with the possible exception of an odd case?


Henri Sévérin Béland: It will at all events be very substantially decreased.


Arthur Edward Ross: Is vocational training carried on in connection with the hospitals?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes.
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Murray MacLaren: Where is the vocational training carried on-in many centres, or only where there are hospitals?


Henri Sévérin Béland: In many centres, mainly in industries.


Mr MANION:: I suppose the minister means that these men have taken positions, say in paper plants or something of that sort, and that the government is paying part of their salary while they are getting that training?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes.


Robert James Manion: Have we any institutions at present which are doing that work?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Not of our own.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Salaries-
General administrative	$1,425,000
Training, employment and insurance.. ..	128,000
Hospitals and clinics	 2,000,000
Robert James Manion: This is a large item and
I should like the minister, if he will, to give the committee a resume of the work being accomplished.


Henri Sévérin Béland: In this item there is a reduction of $872,000. I do not think I can do better than give the figures as they stood on April 30, last:
	Staff	Salaries
	2,881 .	$3,980,794
Distributed as follows: Head office (including minister, deputy minister, assistant deputy minister, and service		
units	19	34,560Administration branch	988	1,248,942Accounts and audit branch.. ..	303	395,972Treatment branch	1,529	2,301,320
I might give the information for each unit of the department as of April 30, 1924:
Head office	Staff 665	Salaries $801,134"A" Unit, Quebec, headquarters at Montreal	337	459,991"B" Unit, Maritime provinces, headquarters at Halifax	207	292,456"C" Unit, eastern Ontario, headquarters at Ottawa	139	199,499"D" Unit, central Ontario, headquarters at Toronto	606	892,044"F" Unit, western Ontario, head-	Staff	Salariesquarters at London	
"G" Unit, Manitoba and part of western Ontario, headquarters at	294	367,427Winnipeg	
"H" Unit, headquarters at	122	204,817Regina	
"I" Unit, Alberta, headquarters	57	82,636at Calgary	
"J" Unit, British Columbia, head-	208	312,411quarters at Vancouver	
"M" Unit, headquarters at Lon-	232	344,299don, England	14	24,080
These are the details of the number of employees by branches and by units.


Robert James Manion: Will the minister give the number of employees for the same units one year ago. I should like to see the reductions made in the different units.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have the figures for the first July, 1923. I suppose that will be satisfactory.


Robert James Manion: As long as they are about a year apart, so that we can make a comparison.


Henri Sévérin Béland: These are the figures for the 1st July, 1923:
Head office, Ottawa, 733 employees, with salaries of $876,608.
Unhappily I have not just opposite these figures the figures for the 30th April, 1924. They will be found in Hansard and they can be compared. I will give the round figures:
Unit	Staff	SalariesQuebec unit, headquarters, Montreal 	428	$606,000Maritime provinces	308	395,000Eastern Ontario	156	218,000


Robert James Manion: Is that Kingston headquarters?


Henri Sévérin Béland: No. The headquarters are in Ottawa. It comprises Kingston, though.
Staff	Salaries
Central Ontario, headquarters,
Toronto	 896	$1,666,256
There is a big reduction in this.
Staff	Salaries
Western Ontario, headquarters,
London	
326	$412,000Manitoba	
131	208,000Saskatchewan	
56	75,000
A very small reduction there.
Staff	Salaries
Alberta	
211	$305,000British Columbia	
263	368,000London, England	
16	25,000
I have also the figures for the 1st July, 1922, and then for the 31st March, 1920.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: Could the minister classify
the employees in the Calgary unit so that

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we might see the classes in which the 208 employees might be graded?


Henri Sévérin Béland: In Calgary, the administrative and clerical staff consists of one administrative officer, four head clerks, two principal clerks, 20 senior clerks, 28 clerk-stenographers, 13 junior clerks, and two messengers. The professional and technical staff consists of 18 physicians, one dentist, four pension examiners, 22 nurses; dispensers, laboratory assistants and X-ray operators, four; masseurs, two; dietitians and ward-aides, five. The service staff consists of eleven power-plant engineers and firemen-we have two institutions in Calgary, a hospital and a sanatorium-janitors and watchmen, two; chauffeurs and mechanics, two; telephone operator, one; gardeners, teamsters and labourers, one; housekeepers, kitchen and dining-room help, 35; carpenters, painters and utility men, 4; caretakers and cleaners, two; hospital orderlies, 19; limb factory operatives, 8. That was on January 31 of this year, the total being 211.


Mr. HANSON:: Would the minister be
good enough to give me some information with respect to the administration of the partial unit in the city of St. John? I have a couple of questions on the order paper. I want to know how many persons other than medical men are employed in or about the St. John unit, their names, rank, pay and allowances. I should like to have the same information regarding the medical men. I have had some letters recently criticising the size of the staff in St. John, where I understand there are no fewer than 7 physicians, 3 of whom are full time men. As a matter of fact, one of them unfortunately, the chief of the hospital, has died within the last few hours, and I may say that he was a very good man. There are physicians in and about Lancaster hospital drawing as high as $3,000 and I want some information regarding them. I understand that the total pay-roll for physicians alone in that one small institution is $21,600 per annum, which seems very large.


Henri Sévérin Béland: What was formerly the
New Brunswick unit has been consolidated wdth the Halifax institution so that it is now only a sub-unit. The list of medical men employed in the St. John sub-unit comprises: Dr. Skinner, chief medical representative and consultant, who is engaged on full time at a salary of $4,000; the late Dr. McCarthy, medical superintendent of Lancaster hospital; Dr. Pratt, pension examiner; Dr. Kirkland, medical officer; Dr. Malcolm, medical officer;
Dr. Nase, medical officer; Dr. Bridges, medical officer; Dr. White, medical officer Of these 7 medical men three are on full time and four part time and the salaries paid them amount to $18,640. One officer on part time receives $600 per year, namely, Dr. Kirkland.


Richard Burpee Hanson: He is an X-ray operator.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes; he receives an indemnity of $600 per annum. Dr. Malcolm gets $2,400 a year and Dr. Nase $2,400. Dr. Bridges receives $3,000 but he is on full time-and Dr. White, on part time, receives $2,400. These salaries may appear large but I can assure my hon. friend they are well earned.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I understood that Dr.
Bridges was not a full time man.


Henri Sévérin Béland: According to my list he is on full time.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Then you have four full
time men including the pension examiner.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes, including Dr. Skinner and the pension examiner.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Do these doctors engage
in private practice?


Henri Sévérin Béland: The part time men do.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Not the full time men?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Well, they are supposed to be on duty from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m.


Mr. HUMPHREY:: What are the names
of the medical men in the department at Revelstoke and Nelson, and what salaries do they receive?


Henri Sévérin Béland: We have no one on regular salary at Revelstoke.


Levi William Humphrey: What salary is paid
any part time official there?


Henri Sévérin Béland: There is no part time
man there either. We have medical officers who act for the department and who are paid according to a schedule of fees. Some of the medical representatives get $25 a year for five examinations, and some receive more. It depends entirely on the number of examinations which they are requested to make for the department. In many of the smaller towns we have one man to whom we can direct ex-soldiers who apply for treatment. For example, instead of bringing a man to headquarters at Vancouver, a medical man at the point where the subject is to be examined is requested to make the examination. The medical officer who makes examinations
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of this kind is not paid a regular salary, either on part time or on full time; he is paid so much for each examination according to the schedule.


Levi William Humphrey: Is there not a medical man who is paid a monthly salary at Nelson?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I do not see any such
official on my list. Outside of Vancouver there are two medical officers in Victoria and one in Kamloops.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The minister cannot give
us the cost of administration in the case of the sub-unit of St. John including Lancaster but perhaps he will tell us what the average cost per patient per year is, including all services.


Henri Sévérin Béland: The cost per patient per
day at Lancaster is $3.26 and in that institution there have been 10,752 patient days.


Robert James Manion: I notice that the reductions in staff vary. For instance, in Ottawa it amounts to 10 per cent while in other places it is as high as 35 per cent. In the West, in Winnipeg, Calgary, Regina and Vancouver, but notably in the first three places mentioned, there are practically no reductions in staff. No doubt there are reasons for this disparity in the percentages of reduction and the minister might be good enough to explain the matter. He might also give us some figures in regard to the amount of work done by these different staffs. Is there any way of showing the amount of work done by the various staffs, not the, Ottawa staff particularly, it being the headquarters for the whole Dominion, but say the London, Montreal, Winnipeg and Regina staffs? If there is such a method I should like the minister to give it to the committee?


Henri Sévérin Béland: The reason for the varying reductions of staff is difficult to give, unless it be that some hospitals have been closed. I cannot see any other reason why the proportion should not have been respected in every unit.


Robert James Manion: Far from being respected
I notice it varies very much. For instance, in Toronto there is a reduction from 896 to 606-practically 35 per cent; in Winnipeg there has been an increase of one; in Regina a similar increase; in Calgary a decrease of three-practically no reduction at all; then in London there has been a decrease of about 10 per cent; in Montreal a decrease of nearly 25 per cent. So apparently there is no similarity of treatment whatever. It appeals to me, as apparently it does to the minister also, 	* '
that there should be some uniform reduction. Apparently some commanding officers had a stronger power to hold their staffs than had others.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Some administrative heads might have been a little slower than others. I do not know, but I presume that may have happened.


Robert James Manion: Possibly.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I may point out, in connection with Toronto, that Brant House and Euclid Hall have been closed within the past year.


Robert James Manion: Is there any method of
answering the other question in regard to the amount of work done by the units? I appreciate that it may be difficult to answer.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am willing to give all
information possible.


Robert James Manion: I quite understand that it may be a little difficult to furnish.


Henri Sévérin Béland: In the case of Montreal,
the substantial reduction is probably accounted for by the closing of Ste-Agathe sanatorium. I do not see any reason why the reduction of the various units should not have been proportionate. It may be that in a particular unit such as Toronto, for instance, these was a rush of returned men from the start, and therefore the reduction appears to be more imperative at the moment than at any other time. I do not see any other reason unless, as has been suggested, some of the heads are "slow on the job". Their instructions are to contract their staffs as much as possible.


Arthur Edward Ross: Mr. Chairman, it already has been suggested that perhaps some of the money which is going into administration had better go for the benefit of the ex-service sick or disabled. We have had a number of cases cited this afternoon of exservice men whose treatment by the department was lacking somewhat in sympathy. It cannot be. that the administration is overworked, because if we subdivide the headquarters staff here we shall at once perceive that nothing is more nicely classified and subdivided-unless it be the United States tariff. With the reduction in the number of patients throughout the whole country and the closing of certain hospitals one would expect some appreciable reduction in the headquarters staff. I think the minister's figures show that there has been a reduction of about 60 or 70 in this large staff. If the committee will bear with me I will go into the subdivision of the

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headquarters staff as given in the Auditor General's report. Of course the last one we have is for 1923. I think after hon. members have listened to this subdivision they will come to the conclusion that the headquarters staff might very well stand some further reduction, the money thus saved being devoted to the benefit of sick veterans. The subdivisions to which I would direct the attention of the committee are as follows: There is an Accounts branch with 72 employees; an Administration branch with 8 employees; an Audit branch with 12 employees; a Central Registry branch with 138 employees; a Dental branch with 7 employees; an Engineering branch with 45 employees, amongst them a general superintendent, an assistant superintendent, a chief electrician, a matron-whatever she does-two utility messengers and draughtsmen; a Loans branch-a new branch *-with 7 employees; a Pay branch, pensions, with 33 employees; a Pay and Personal branch with 54 employees; a Pay imperial branch with 121 employees-there are apparently three subdivision pay branches; a Personal branch with 9 employees; a Purchasing branch with 14 employees; a Records branch

in addition to the central registry-with 81 employees; a Statistical branch, with 19 employees; a Stenographic branch with 57 employees; a Stores branch with 68 employees; a general division with 10 employees; a Training and Inspection branch with 17 employees; a Treatment branch with 60 employees-an increase of 7 over the year before; an Orthopaedic branch with 4 employees; a Dietetic branch with 3 employees; an insurance branch with 48 employees; a Messengers branch with 16 employees. There you have at least three pay branches. I am sure the committee would like the minister to explain the difference in the work of these various branches. Then again I would draw attention to another overlapping which appears to me in this Unit branch. If a man in the Ottawa branch takes sick he reports to the Unit branch, whereupon two doctors examine him. Then he goes up to the Pensions branch, whose doctors re-examine him. In addition to the nine medical officers of the Pensions branch here, we have two other doctors doing Unit branch work right in this city. This looks to me to be a clear case of overlapping. As we have found out to-day, most of the doctors in the Unit branches are senior to the doctors at headquarters, yet their reports in many cases are overridden by their juniors, and this is the cause of a great deal of trouble in the treatment which the men receive. It is only in the subdivision of the Administrative branch that one can see a great number of employees, and it would be very interesting if the minister would explain this apparent overlapping and overmanning, especially in the case of the three Pay branches. This is another matter I think the minister might very well consider with a view to preventing overlapping. In such cases as have been mentioned here this afternoon the money might very well go to the men rather than to administration.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I do not share my hon. friend's view that the service is not being reduced at headquarters. In ten months there has been a reduction of 78 employees; that must surely be considered as substantial. We reduce our medical staff very slowly, because though the number of patients in hospital decreases, the number of applications for treatment and for pensions does not decrease very much. Unless the department is to close its doors and permit no claims of any kind to be made, where a returned man finds that he is suffering from trouble, some disease, some pain, and contends that it is due to his service, there is no course left to the department but to have the man thoroughly examined, his file drawn., his documents verified and all the facts considered in order that justice may be done. That procedure has to be followed even though no pension is awarded or no treatment given, and even at that, as my hon. friend knows, we do not succeed in satisfying everbody. So I say we have substantially reduced the staff, although nothing would be more agreeable to me than to be in a position to say that we had reduced not by 2,000 but by 4,000. As the years go on the reductions in the staff will be slower. I have been convinced that while in some sections or branches the number of employees may be a little too large, generally speaking the depart-men is cot overstaffed. I had -that impression three years ago but I dared not raise my voice because I was not then fully conversant with the situation. At that time I was struck by a figure of, if I mistake not, about 8,000 employees in the department, while to-day we have 2,800. It was apparent to me that there were too many employees, for at that time we had only about 5,000 patients, and to-day we have 3,600-not a great difference. The reduction has been going on steadily at an average of from 18 to 22 a week. If you have a heart, and I know you have, you cannot go any faster without creating serious hardship among the men that you retire. Let us be content with the reduction of about 20 a week; that will bring the staff down to a very small figure within a year or two. A number of large branches in the department have been
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done away with and the heads of them retired, so that to-day, practically speaking, we have only two branches in the department, the administration and the medical departments.


Arthur Edward Ross: Suppose an exservice man at Carleton Place is sick and wants to get treatment; will the minister outline the routine in order to show the committee how many hands that man passes through before final action is taken?


Henri Sévérin Béland: My hon. friend is an able
medical man; he knows that the first physician this ex-soldier meets may be a general practitioner. If a chest condition is detected, for instance, the man will have to be turned over to the chest specialist, or the doctor in the unit, for further examination. No decision can be given at this stage without an X-ray examination, and the case would be turned over to the X-ray specialist for that purpose.


Arthur Edward Ross: He must go to
the unit man first, then he is referred on.


Henri Sévérin Béland: He is still in the unit:
he will have to be X-rayed and his plates carefully read. If he shows signs of mental deficiency, the specialist in mental diseases will have to be called in. This information will all be part of his file, and then headquarters will decide whether or not he is entitled to treatment. It may be
9 p.m. found that he is not entitled to treatment, and all this work, which may have required I do not know how many hours from two or three men, will have been paid for by the country. That is why it is difficult to reduce as much as some people would think.


Arthur Edward Ross: I may be wrong,
but I think the routine is a little more elaborate than that. The man is examined; a report goes out from the unit to have a private physician at Carleton Place examine him. Then he turns up at the unit office here, and after being dealt with is referred to a specialist. You have a medical officer in charge of the unit; you have two medical officers there as examiners before the man goes out. Then he is passed in from the unit to headquarters and the matter is dealt with there; he may be examined by two or three more men, or he may be sent either to Toronto or to Montreal. My opinion is that where you have headquarters and the units so close together, you could save a good deal of that trouble by combining these medical offices.


Henri Sévérin Béland: That is a suggestion that I think is worth considering.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: What is the cost per patient
per day in the Calgary unit, and is the rental of the building included in that cost?


Henri Sévérin Béland: At the Belcher hospital
in Calgary the cost per patient per day for the six months from April 1, to September 30, 1923, was $3.46. Those are the latest figures I have for that hospital. The number of patient days for the six months was 24,031.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: Does that include rental of
the building?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: I thought that would be
charged to the Public Works department.


Henri Sévérin Béland: We include everything in
the cost, so I am informed.


William F. Carroll: Regarding the doctors in small places who are employed by the department at so much per case do they investigate any cases without the authority of the officials of the department? In a place like Sydney or Glace Bay, for instance?


Henri Sévérin Béland: They have authority to
make examinations when they think it is advisable to do so.


William F. Carroll: I think that would be
proper. I do not know whether it is part of their duty or not, but I am afraid that some of these doctors, after making examinations, do not always bring the cases to the attention of the department. I think they should take steps to bring cases that should be treated to the attention of the pension officer at Halifax or of the D.S.C.R. officials at Halifax or Ottawa. Everything possible should be done to find out whether these cases are in need of hospital treatment and to assist the patients in every way in getting such treatment. They should be brought to the attention of the pension officer or the department's officials. I had under my observation a year ago three cases in the city of Sydney, which a doctor was attending, I presume, on the authority of the D.S.C.R. headquarters at Halifax. He was a good medical man, but he did nothing to bring to the attention of the D.S.C.R. or of the pensions officials that these people required treatment. I happened to be in the city at the time, and two of these men sent for me. One of them was in a very serious state with tuberculosis. I took his case up with Mr. McPhee in Halifax and in less than thirty days the man was in Kentville sanatorium, and the result is that he is now very much improved. I would think that these

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doctors when they attend a case, should take steps to find out whether or not the man is suffering from a disability requiring hospital treatment, and if so, the doctor should do his best to have him brought into hospital. I am not finding fault with any particular doctor or doctors, but I am just bringing this matter to the attention of the minister because two of these cases came under my own observation, and I believe that if this man had not been given treatment in Kentville sanatorium he would have been dead by now, but as it is he is making very fine progress. I think it should be part of the doctor's duty to do everything possible to get hospital treatment for the men needing it.


Henri Sévérin Béland: That is their duty..


Mr. LEWIS:: The minister said there was a reduction in the staff of about twenty per week. Can this rate be maintained indefinitely without seriously affecting the efficiency of the service to the patients? What will the minimum requirements be in staff to give the best service to patients all over the country?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have already expressed
the opinion, Mr. Chairman, that it will not be possible to reduce at that rate very much longer. We shall have to slow down somewhat. As to what figure should be considered the minimum for the staff to be, that is a pretty big contract -to place in my hands. I would think probably five hundred in, say, three years. After that, when most of the patients are in the homes, and when the period has elapsed during which men can apply for treatment or pension, that figure will be considerably decreased, but we shall require quite a large clerical staff to pay pensions. A number of pensioners are not permanent. They receive a pension that will undoubtedly be decreased, suspended, or cancelled entirely within one or two or three years. These cases require periodical examinations. I am unable to say at the present time exactly at what day the minimum will be reached, or what that minimum will be.


Robert James Manion: I should like -to have the
minister give us some information about the insurance scheme for soldiers which comes under this item. How many men are insured, and what is the amount paid? I think the committee would be interested in hearing the details.


Henri Sévérin Béland: The number of policies issued as of the 31st of December, 1923, was 33,580; the sum assured $82,812,500; the total value of death claims, $2,253,000, of which $1,652,000 has already been paid, the balance
being payable in instalments. There have been lapses to the amount of $15,405,000. The balance of funds in the hands of -the department, paid in as premiums, 'amounted on December 31st last to $1,696,656.


Murray MacLaren: What is the percentage
of deaths among those who hold policies?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have not the percentage n my mind at the moment, but I know it is luite satisfactory, considering the fact that these men have been accepted for insurance without any medical examination, and in the majority of cases it is only reasonable to assume that it is the men who were sick or suffering from some disability who have sought insurance rather than the men who were well.


Murray MacLaren: Are there no figures
to indicate the percentage?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I could find the figures if
I had a little time. I do not remember them at the present time, and I dare not make an estimate.


Arthur John Lewis: Is the reduction of over
$500,000 for hospital treatment due to a reduction in the number of patients?


Henri Sévérin Béland: That has to be -taken into consideration, but it is reductions in staff mainly.


Robert James Manion: With regard to insurance,
I kpow, of course, that these men have been accepted without medical examination, and that naturally the prospects would not be as good as those of an ordinary life insurance company. But could the minister give us an estimate as to what percentage of loss is to be expected? What percentage will the government have to put up to carry this scheme along? I know this insurance is carried at a very cheap rate.


Henri Sévérin Béland: It is difficult to estimate what the loss will be. Undoubtedly the loss to the country will be large. I have seen an estimate of about $20,000,000.


Robert James Manion: Over what period?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Over the whole period, because no other man can avail himself of insurance now the new 1-aw is in effect. The mortality rate under the Returned Soldiers' Insurance Act is not exceptional considering , the class of risk which is taken. During the current year 299 claims were received by the department. Of these 65 were settled under section 10, and so on.
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Robert James Manion: Has the minister the figures of the ordinary insurance company in proportion to that number of claims?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I think the showing is a little worse.


Robert James Manion: You mean that the showing of the government's insurance is a little worse than that of an ordinary company?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes.


Murray MacLaren: What do the premiums amount to in a year?


Henri Sévérin Béland: It is insurance at cost based on actuarial calculations. I could not give the exact figures.


Arthur Edward Ross: Would the minister explain what is meant by the word "training" in connection with this item?


Henri Sévérin Béland: That has reference to the officers to whom is entrusted the training. That is a very small affair. In the case of insurance it is more considerable because they carry on quite a big scheme, as I have just outlined.


Arthur Edward Ross: I did not catch the
minister's explanation of the word "training." *


Henri Sévérin Béland: Vocational training.


Arthur Edward Ross: But immediately above I find item 294 "Vocational expense"?


Henri Sévérin Béland: That is to provide for the fees the department pays to the industries that train these men.


Arthur Edward Ross: May I ask what
the difference is between item 293 "Care of patients and medical examination of pensioners" and the item "Hospitals and clinics"? They are both large votes and the second amounts to $2,000,000.


Henri Sévérin Béland: In the one case it has reference to the maintenance of hospitals. In the other it represents the salaries paid to the staffs of the hospitals, including the doctors and nurses.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: With regard to the staff
employed at Ottawa I have before me a return brought down by the department. With respect to that organization in the department known as the purchasing and stores division, I find that in 1920 there were 221 employees engaged in purchasing to the amount of $3,001,088.51. In 1921 there were 259 employees and the amount of the purchasing was $2,062,916.31. In 1922 the number of employees was reduced to 172, and their total purchases amounted during that 
year to $1,229,796.29. In 1923 the number of employees had been cut down to 110, and their total purchases for that year amounted to $1,117,135.20, a diminution in personnel of 62 and in purchasing of $112,000. Then in the year 1924, according to this statement the staff was further diminished to 92 and the amount of purchases during that year totalled $836,368.50. It does not seem to me that the reductions in staff have in any sense been proportionate to the amount of the purchases actually made, and it would appear that here is a very likely source from which the minister could secure a substantial reduction in the staff. I also have the salary paid these officials and I find that during last year there has only been a decrease of something like $20,000 in salaries. I would suggest to the minister that in this purchasing and stores division there should be an opportunity to dispense with the services of a considerable number of men. If that is not possible the minister might co-ordinate the purchasing division of this department with that of some other department and perhaps eliminate practically all of the staff.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I think there is something in the remarks made by my hon. friend. I may say that I have followed pretty closely the reduction of the staff, but in all these matters the minister has to rely mainly upon the advice of the chief officials. It may be that in this particular instance the reduction has not been proportionate to the amount of purchases made. I will look into the matter more carefully and see if there is a possibility of making a further reduction.


Arthur Edward Ross: I point out the fact that there are three pay divisions at headquarters. Will the minister kindly explain what these are?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I did not catch my hon.
friend's question?


Arthur Edward Ross: There is a Pay
branch, pensions, 33 employees; Pay and Personal service, 54 employees; Personal division, 9 employees; and the Pay, imperial branch division, 21 employees. I have taken these figures out of the Auditor General's report, 1923.


Henri Sévérin Béland: The Imperial Pay branch
is under the Administrative branch and it is entirely supported by the Imperial government. Still we have to do the work; we have to provide the staff, and the pay of the employees but this expenditure, of course, is refunded to the department. There are only, as I said a minute ago, two main divisions-

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the administrative and the medical. All these branches my hon. friend refers to will come under the Administrative branch. The Pay and Personal branch, like the Purchasing and Stores division-in fact all these divisions- had a head and stood by themselves some three or four years ago, but they have now been contracted although they bear the same names and are under the one administrative head.


Arthur Edward Ross: Still there are three sub-division pay branches. The amount paid out by the Imperial branch is given here as $7,000,000 requiring 121 employees; whereas our branch paid $50,000,000 and has, I think, only 33 employees. And then there is the Pay and Personal branch for our own service.


Henri Sévérin Béland: That is quite right.


Arthur Edward Ross: And this branch
will have 54 employees for a total staff of something like 2,000.


Murray MacLaren: Could there not be a
combining of these different pay branches into one pay department?


Henri Sévérin Béland: There is only one official
in charge of it now.


Arthur Edward Ross: Is there any reason why there should be 121 employees paying out $7,000,000 in British pensions and 33 employees paying out $50,000,000 in Canadian pensions?


Henri Sévérin Béland: My hon. friend is aware
that the Imperial section is not merely a paying division. It deals with provisions for examination of Imperial pensioners, of expensioners in Canada requiring treatment, and I have always considered that the staff of the Imperial section as certainly not too large. I am surprised my hon. friend says that it is large, because it is one branch where I think it is pretty hard to effect a reduction. We have been very careful not to overload the Imperial government with a staff which is not needed. I assure my hon. friend that there is a great deal of work to do in the Imperial section.


Arthur Edward Ross: Is there any comparison between the work done by the Imperial section and that done by the Canadian section?


Henri Sévérin Béland: In some regards there is.


Arthur Edward Ross: In the Canadian
section there are 33 employees paying out $50,000,000 and handling the cases connected with that, and in the Imperial section ^there are 121 employees paying out only $7,000,-
000 and handling the cases in connection with that. It looks as if the number of employees in the Imperial section was large.


Henri Sévérin Béland: There is quite a large
number of Imperial pensioners in America. The Imperial section has to deal with Imperial pensioners in both Canada and the United States. There are in all 18,000 Imperial pensioners in America.


Arthur Edward Ross: But still the
$7,000,000 amount covers them all.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Pay and allowances-treatment	$2,000,000
training	 100,000
Henri Sévérin Béland: We shall not have very
much difficulty as regards this item, because this is money which is paid directly to the men. It is paid to patients on the strength of the department and entitled to treatment.


Robert James Manion: Does this include pay
to medical men?


Henri Sévérin Béland: No, this is an allowance
paid to a man who is being treated by the department.


Robert James Manion: The item also reads
"treatment."


Henri Sévérin Béland: Treatment allowances.
That is to distinguish it from training allowances, because men under training receive allowances also.


Robert James Manion: I am afraid I shall have
to ask the permission of the committee to ask one or two questions on the last item, because I understood this covered pay to medical men. Have many changes been made in the medical staffs throughout the country, and if so, on what grounds have such changes been made? Have men been changed at Toronto, Fort William, Kingston or Ottawa, one man being taken out and another man being put in, to any great extent?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I do not think that out
of the few hundred medical men on the strength of the department, more than three or four have been changed.


Robert James Manion: In the case of the three
or four who have been changed, will the minister explain-not individually-on what ground the changes have been made?


Henri Sévérin Béland: In one case the man
resigned because he was dissatisfied with the department. That is the unit medical director at Montreal, who made a protest against the
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department placing a layman at the head of Ste. Anne de Bellevue hospital. We discussed that question this afternoon. I think his brother resigned from Ste. Anne de Bellevue hospital and we had to replace him. We changed the unit medical director at Halifax some few years ago. I do not think besides those we have changed a single medical director in Canada.


Robert James Manion: Not a medical director,
but there was a change made in the medical officer at the head of the lakes at Port Arthur.


Henri Sévérin Béland: That may be.


Robert James Manion: I need not mention the
name. The minister can easily look it up. There was an officer who had come back from the front and who had several years' service overseas. He had served as medical officer at the head of the lakes for some years. He became president of the Conservative Association, and shortly afterwards he was practically dismissed, asked for his resignation, and a Liberal put in his place who had not been overseas. I point this out because I think it is a very unfair proposition. I can see no other grounds for this being done than politics. The man who had this done to him wrote to the director, Dr. Mclvor, and he replied that he was instructed to make a change. I presume the instructions came from Ottawa I asked about the other changes because I did not know whether any had been made or not. I put questions on the order paper in regard to this matter, and I have been unable to ^ find any cause for his dismissal, because it is practically that, except politics. I point this out, because I do not think, especially in this department, dismissals of that kind should take place on such grounds.. While the man who has been put in this man's place is a personal, although not a political friend of mine, a man whom I like, perhaps, at least as well as the man who was dismissed, that does not alter the injustice done to the latter who was virtually dismissed because he had been elected president of the Liberal-Conservative Association. I was not told that; but there was no other cause given, so that was the only conclusion that I could naturally draw


Henri Sévérin Béland: I can assure my hon. friend that it was not a political consideration which prompted the change to which he refers. I do not remember the name of the gentleman.


Robert James Manion: Dr. Crozier.


Henri Sévérin Béland: And the one who replaced him?


Robert James Manion: Dr. Brown.


Henri Sévérin Béland: It was represented to me
that Dr. Brown was the representative of the department at a certain time three or four years ago; that he was replaced by Dr. Crozier, that at the present time Dr. Brown was prematurely aged and was unable to attend to his practice as in former years, and that he was a deserving man who had seen service which, although it was confined to Canada, was nevertheless of a very arduous nature. There was no complaint against Dr. Crozier; I have been able to satisfy myself that he filled his position with credit to himself and to the department. The change that was made, I can assure my hon. friend, was not influenced by any political consideration. The gentleman has been able to convince himself that the field that was open to me was quite large had I desired to carry political inclinations into all the units of the department.
Mr. ^ MANION:	Probably some of the
politicians at the head of the lakes are strenuous in their attitude, and possibly the trouble was that the man having been elected president of the Liberal-Conservative Association, some of the extreme Liberals felt dissatisfied that he should continue to occupy his position. As a matter of fact he demanded the reasons for the change but none were given; they simply stated that they had been instructed to take action. The fact that, as the minister points out, no changes had been made throughout the country except in three or four cases where mer resigned would I fear rather confirm this view of the matter. Personally I do not think that the minister can explain it; he has not given us a satisfactory explanation and I will not press him because I am sure he would find it difficult to give a really plausible reason for this particular change.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Regarding pay and allowances, these are cash payments which are made according to a scale to all patients who are being treated by the department, and they are given not only for themselves but for their dependents as well. This applies m the case of treatments and also in the case of training.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Vocational loans, $20,000.
Henri Sévérin Béland: This item does not call
for much explanation. Last year we had an appropriation of $35,000 and during the year we loaned $32,709. These loans are made to men who have been vocationally trained, and no individual loan exceeds $500. The

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loan is made to enable the individual to procure implements and tools for the purpose of engaging in the vocation for which he has been trained, and it is repayable to the department. It is gratifying to know * that only a very small amount, if anything at .all, will be beyond recovery.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Interest on war service gratuity and administration *funds, $22,000.
Robert James Manion: What does this mean?


Mr. BEL  AND@: The department is trustee for the men who are under treatment and for a certain number of pensioners whose pensions we directly administer. These persons in some cases are orphans. The total amount we carry in this way is estimated for the year at $350,000. We pay interest on the money which is paid out to each man as he leaves the hospital.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Unemployment relief, $200,000.
Murray MacLaren: What is the system
adopted in the distribution of the money for unemployment relief?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Unemployment relief is administered only to disabled soldiers who are pensioners but whose pension is not adequate for their needs. These men are only partially pensioned and are unemployed, and destitute. Our staff in each unit attends to this part of the work; it investigates each individual case, finds out what is needed, whether the man is deserving, and what kind of relief he requires in the way of food, rent, clothing and so forth. A report is submitted upon which the relief is issued, and there is a maximum which may not be exceeded. We never pay anything in cash. Last year the amount voted was $500,000, and we spent $287,543 in relief. I have all the details, but probably it will be sufficient for me to state that we have relieved 4,558 persons comprising heads of families and a few single men, and the number of dependents supported by these men during the year was 10,628, consisting of course of wives and children.


Robert James Manion: I understood thfe minister to say that this money was paid to men who were disabled but who were not receiving a sufficient pension to carry on. It has no direct connection with their disability, or they would no doubt receive a pension commensurate therewith. I take it that the relief is given to men who are partially disabled and who are out of work.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes, or who may have some other disability not due to war service.


Robert James Manion: There is no money used now for ordinary unemployment as was the case a couple of years ago?


Henri Sévérin Béland: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Operating expenses and working capital, $450,000.
Henri Sévérin Béland: A very large part of this
item is used in financing treatment and medical examination of Imperial and former soldiers and also the operations at Imperial pension offices. For the 9 months expired December 31, 1923, we had advanced in this connection to the Imperial government the sum of $266,000. This money is of course refunded and all these accounts are adjusted in the course of time. The balance is used for operating expenses covering such items as telephones, telegrams, postage, car fares, transportation, travelling of staff, stationery, office supplies, storage, light, heat and power, water rates, maintenance, repairs to furniture and equipment, freight and express. The Royal Commission on Pensions and Re-establishment comes under this item, as well as all other general expenses. This item I think is also being reduced considerably, although the outlay on account of the Imperial Ministry of Pensions is getting larger in this connection.
I pointed out a few minutes ago that we have eighteen thousand Imperial pensioners under our care at the present time, twelve thousand in Canada and six thousand in the United States. The Imperial Ministry of Pensions have requested us to attend to the examination of these men for treatment, pensions and so on. We act as the agents of the Imperial Ministry of Pensions and are reimbursed any money we advance on their account.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Employers' liability compensation, $30,000.
Henri Sévérin Béland: Employees generally are
very reluctant to engage disabled soldiers and in some instances it was reported to us by the returned men themselves that on account of the danger of accidents due to their disability they had been refused employment. It was therefore decided some years ago that the government should come to the rescue of these disabled men by providing for the reimbursement of any compensation which employers might have to pay as a result of accident to men with 20 per cent disablement or over. We have spent very little money in this connection-only $18,000 last year, although we appropriated $75,000. This year we are asking for $30,000.
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Robert James Manion: In view of the fact that
oply $18,000 was spent last year why is $30,000 asked for this year?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Generally speaking, the
provinces are slow in sending in their bills. I do not believe it would be wise to go any lower than $30,000.


Robert James Manion: Is this money paid partly to the compensation boards in the various provinces and partly to disabled men for extra compensation?


Henri Sévérin Béland: It is paid to the employers themselves.


Robert James Manion: To help them pay their compensation fees?


Henri Sévérin Béland: To pay the compensation for accidents happening to disabled men suffering 20 per cent disability and over.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Sheltered employment, burial of destitute, transportation of the blind, #390,000.
Mr. SPENCER:: Will the minister give the reason for the increase in this item?


Henri Sévérin Béland: The number of men that we employ in our vetcraft shops has been increasing somewhat. In many of our cities we have an agreement with the Red Cross Society, with the exception of those in Ontario. We have such an agreement in Victoria, Vancouver, Winnipeg, Montreal, Halifax and St. John. In London, Toronto and Kingston we operate the vetcraft shops ourselves, it not having been possible so far to make the same agreement with the Red Cross Society in Ontario. On December 31, 1923, we had 334 men in the vetcraft shops; on May 24, 1924, a few days ago, we had 354 men. Of course, applications are always coming in. The men are admitted' after having been carefully examined. They are all very highly disabled men, most of them being absolutely precluded from attempting to secure employment anywhere else. Of course, we operate these shops at a heavy loss, but we keep those men occupied and they earn something. It would cost the country ;a good deal more if we had to support 354 families. The agreement which we have entered into with the Red Cross Society is rather generous towards the society. I need not read it to the committee.


Henry Elvins Spencer: I see this vote calls for the 'burial of the destitute. Do many come under this heading?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am informed that such burials are carried out by the Last Post men,
I Mr. Boland.]
and we contribute $10,000 to the fund. These burials are not very numerous; they cannot be.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Does the minister contribute out of this fund to Red! Cross workshops such as the one operated in Vancouver?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I have visited the shop in Vancouver on several occasions, and it is certainly a very excellent institution. I think every assistance that can possibly be given to a work of this kind should be rendered by the government. What portion of the cost is contributed by the government?


Henri Sévérin Béland: The government contributes 85 per cent of all capital expenditure, the provincial division contributing 15 per cent. The equity in the equipment and buildings remains in the two bodies in the proportion of their contributions. If there should be a deficit the department will contribute 75 per cent up to a maximum contribution of $30 per month per man. That is the essence of the agreement we have with the Red Cross Society.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Is that a standard rate
all over Canada?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes.


Mr. STEWART (Humboldt):: Will the
minister explain the last sentence, transportation of the blind?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I think two years ago the recommendation of the parliamentary committee to which matters relating to our returned men were referred was to the effect that the government should provide an escort for blind soldiers while travelling. In pursuance of that recommendation an order in council was passed providing for such escort.


Charles Wallace Stewart: It is simply the transportation of the escort?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes.


Arthur John Lewis: It seems too bad that it is
necessary to have an item, especially in reference to those who served overseas, expressed in the words "burial of destitute." Does that refer to men who were incapacitated in any way, or simply to those who have been out of work or who have become sick and died?


Henri Sévérin Béland: There are in Canada
about 450,000 men who served overseas. A

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large proportion of these men are heads of families. It is only natural to suppose that a few of them will, economically speaking, go down the stream, though they have no physical disability. These may be persons who never requested the aid of the department, possibly because they did not believe they came within the regulations. They may die in poor circumstances, and this appropriation is to provide for their burial. There are very few such cases.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Federal Appeal Board, $150,000.
Robert James Manion: I would like the minister
to allow this item to stand. He has made pretty good progress to-day, and there are a number of our committee who were under the impression that railway estimates were to come on to-night. There is not going to be any obstruction of this item, but some of them wish to speak to it, and I suggest that the minister hold this one and take 304, if he will.


Henri Sévérin Béland: There is a large item of
$33,000,000 for pensions, and I suggest that my hon. friend will be afforded an opportunity when that item comes up to discuss all the phases of the work of the appeal board in connection with pensions. I know this is the place to discuss the matter, but it is early, and if we are to make any progress at all, if we are to reach the end of the session at a reasonably early day, perhaps we could dispose of all these items. But if my hon. friend is of the opinion that we should not take the pensions item this evening I will not insist.


Robert James Manion: I have been requested
by some of the committee to ask that this item be held over. It will not delay the minister any longer. He rather suggests that we have not made much progress, but we have passed over $9,000,000 to-d'ay, which is a fair day's work.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I agree.


Robert James Manion: I suggest that we take
item 304 and leave the Federal Appeal Board and pensions items until next day. Perhaps the minister could give us notice: a few days in advance as to when these items will come up. In fact, I would suggest that there might be some rule under which a couple of days' notice of the estimates that are to come up might be given instead of the notice just the night before. Some of us wish to speak to particular estimates and when they come up we are not ready, just as to-day-it was really understood that the railway items were
to be gone on with, but they were ruled out of order. It is true that these were suggested for late to-day, but nobody thought they would be reached, because every-
10 p.m. body understood that railways would take the greater part of the. day. It is true that in the past no such notice has been given, but that is no reason why we should not improve the rules of the House in that respect. If the minister can advise us when these items are likely to come up we will possibly get on better, because I would try to have the members of the committee here, and if they are not here it will be their own fault.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I will do the best I can.
My hon. friend will know, however, by experience, having regard to the number of measures on the order paper, the reports of committees, and the requests from gentlemen on the committees to bring forward certain matters at certain times, it is exceedingly difficult to determine more than a day in advance what the business of the government will be. However, I will endeavour to send a note to my hon. friend in this connection and also to the leader of the Progressive party. I have no objection to allowing this item to stand, because I myself have something to say with regard to it which may be of interest to hon. members.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: I would like to put on record now some matters in connection with the work of the Federal Appeal Board so that the minister may. have an opportunity of dealing with them when the item is taken up. I have received numerous petitions of various kinds, and I wish to read from, a couple of them so that when the time comes the minister can deal with them. One is from the War Veterans' Association at Calgary. I will read the material part of the letter:
Veterans in Calgary are dissatisfied with the manner in which these cases are heard, in particular the fact that the appeals are heard before one member of the board only, and judgment is reserved in all cases. We would respectfully suggest that the travelling board consist of three members of the board who would hear all cases and announce decision in the name of the board instead of a quorum of the Appeal Board at Ottawa again sitting on each case before decision is arrived at. We are of the opinion that this would be a means of saving to the government. Allowance of appeals by the Board of Pension Commissioners and D.S.C.R. after appellant has been heard is also unsatisfactory. These departments have already had their opportunity when examining the pensioner or appellant prior to appeal. Appeals from pensioners or appellants should be final in so much that if upheld by Appeal Board action should be taken to rectify injustice done to appellant and if adverse decision, decision would be final also and we are of the opinion

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more satisfactory to all concerned. Appellants should be given benefits of doubts as to originality of disability within reason, which is not done at present. We would also suggest that appeals against reduction of pensions should also be within the scope of the Board of Appeal. The entire powers of the Appeal Board could be greatly widened to the benefit of all concerned and undoubtedly cost less in the long run to have these matters adjusted.
A long series of resolutions was passed at a largely attended public meeting of the citizens of Weyburn, Saskatchewan. I will read those which have reference to the work of the appeal tribunal:
1.	That the time for appealing to the pension Appeal Board from the decisions and rulings of the Pension Board be extended.
2.	That the scope and jurisdiction of the pension Appeal Board be enlarged so as to include assessment for disability in cases where the pension or allowance is complained of as being insufficient and the ruling of the Pension Board in that respect unfair and unjust.
3.	That the pensions be increased to the extent of the present bonus.
4.	That whereas the pension Appeal Board as at
present constituted cannot reasonably and does not efficiently and speedily dispose of the work for which it was created.
And whereas the present system of dealing with appeals is cumbersome and unduly expensive, and is largely ineffective and leads to undue and unreasonable delay in dealing with the cases of disabled soldiers and the widows and orphans of soldiere who met their death in the performance of their duty to Canada and the Empire, and who during these long delays are without the means of sustaining life and must in the meantime depend upon the charity of their old comrades and of their sympathetic fellow citizens in the several communities in which they reside;
And whereas it has now been fully demonstrated that no single appeal tribunal can possibly hear and dispose of the very large number of appeal cases throughout the Dominion under the most favourable conditions, there being in Saskatchewan alone oyer 600 cases awaiting appeal, and even if it could that the unavoidable long delays would be the cause of great suffering which should at all cost be avoided.
And whereas if these appeals are to be efficiently and promptly dealt with,
Now it is resolved that some other system and method of appeal should be adopted.
It is further resolved and urged that the ruling or judgment of the Court of Appeal be final and binding upon the Pension Board and that the continuance of its present disregard and defiance of the law of Canada, as enacted by the people's representatives in parliament, be visited upon the members of the Pension Board by the most severe penalties, as in the case where ordinary citizens commit a breach of any of the more vitally important laws of the country.
A further resolution goes on to deal with some rather drastic punishments which it is suggested should be meted out to the pension board and also the officials bf the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment. I simply want to bring these recommendations, which are typical of many I have received, to the attention of the minister, so that when the matter comes up again he will probably be able to advise us as to his suggestions in regard to improving this appeal procedure.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Just a word in reply. I
am very glad my hon. friend has placed those resolutions on Hansard. I may say at once with reference to the quorum of the appeal board sitting all over Canada, instead of just one member of the board, I have already taken steps to that end. I have called the members of the appeal board together, and after a discussion of the subject they have come to the conclusion that- they should sit in the first place as a quorum instead of one. I think that will immediately meet one of the wishes of this body of returned men.
Another subject which my hon. friend brought up was the making of the pension bonus permanent. I think this also will be met at this session.
As to the rest of the resolution, I shall read it in Hansard to-imorrow and be in a position to discuss it more intelligently when we submit this item for further consideration.


Levi William Humphrey: When this item next
comes up I would ask that the minister inform the committee as to the number of appeals that have been made by the Board of Pension Commissioners against the decisions of the appeal board. As I understand it, the Board of Pension Commissioners have the right of appeal in the same way as the ex-service men have, and I think it would be useful if the minister would let us have that information, together with the number of appeals that have been made by exservice men, and any other information that is pertinent.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I will be glad to have
that information ready for the committee. As a matter of fact, I have it here now.


Mr. McQUARRIE:: I have a few remarks to make in reference to this appeal board.
I think it is my duty to say that there is a feeling of disappointment in my province as to the limited jurisdiction of the appeal board. Certain returned men who expected their cases would be heard when the board was in British Columbia found that the board1 had no jurisdiction to hear their cases, as apparently it cannot consider any case where a pension has been granted; that is to say, the board has no control over the quantum of the pension.


Henri Sévérin Béland: That is right.


William Garland McQuarrie: There is one case I have particularly in mind. The minister will possibly remember that I took it up with him by correspondence. It seems to me that in that case the man has been very unfairly treated, and by reason of this case and other

Supply-Re-establishment
cases of a somewhat similar nature, a general impression has been created that the medical boards of the department are anxious to keep down, so far as possible, the amount of the pensions. It has even been suggested that instructions have been given to the medical men to keep down the pensions, and to disallow pensions wherever that is possible. I am quite sure that no such instructions were issued by the minister, but the impression does prevail that, either directly or indirectly, instructions to that effect have been given. If that is a fact, I think it is a most discreditable thing, and I am forced to the conclusion that there must be some foundation for it, because in my opinion the medical boards are not treating these men with any degree of fairness. More than that, if statements made to me are correct, they are telling one story to the men and are making different reports to the department. That has been repeated to me time after time, and I say that kind of thing should be stopped. It is absolutely wrong; it is inhuman. I feel there is certainly room for some improvement in the method of handling the cases which come before the medical boards, and that there is not that degree of sympathy that should be shown to the men who have served their country like these men have done.
The particular case to which I refer, it seems to me, is a typical one. I have given the minister the particulars. I could give the man's name now, but I presume nothing would be gained by that, but if it is desired, I shall do so. It is the case of a man who served overseas and was very badly wounded. He had a gunshot wound in the head. He has quite a hole in his forehead; it is very noticeable; indeed it is so large you could almost put your thumb in it. He has another wound on his lip, which causes it to look like a hair-lip. He had an operation, and a piece of shrapnel was taken out of his head; there is another piece of shrapnel still in his head. That man has a wife and family, and is receiving a pension of, I think, $39 altogether. He is in very bad shape; he is a physical and nervous wreck. So far as I am aware no other cause has been assigned for his condition than his war services. There is nothing in his record which would give the faintest indication of any other reason. The man is certainly not in a fit condition to work. He is subject to fits of an. epileptic nature which occur very frequently and he is unable to sam a livelihood. When I took the matter up with the minister I received a letter from his secretary stating that the case would be reviewed, and in the meantime the man would 170


[Stage Direction]
be taken on the strength in Vancouver. I sent a copy of the letter to the man and in due course he got in touch with the department in Vancouver for the purpose of being taken on the strength where, I presumed, he would come under observation and his case be satisfactorily dealt with. However, he ascer-
' tained from the officer in charge of the medical service in Vancouver, Dr. Proctor, that no instructions had been received from Ottawa to that effect. Dr. Proctor was of the opinion that the man was not qualified to be taken on the strength because he was physically capable of working. Apparently that was not the opinion of other government departments because when this man applied for various positions with the Department of Customs and the Department of Immigration on the border in my constituency he was informed that owing to his disabilities his application could not be considered at all.
After taking the matter up with Dr. Proctor I was informed that some arrangement was going to be made to take care of this man and in due course learned from the man what that arrangement was. It appeared that if he could make an arrangement with some employer who would guarantee that at the end of two months he would give him permanent employment the department would pay his wages in the meantime. That is to say, the department would pay the wages for two months but at the end of that time the employer would have to provide a permanent position. That seemed to me to be absurd. I thought the man must be mistaken and I said to him "Have you anything in writing to that effect?" He said: "No, but I think they would give me a letter to that effect", and I have that letter. Now, here is a man who is not able to work. Yet they tell him that if he can find some employer who will guarantee to employ him permanently at the end of two months the department will pay his wages in the meantime. I can read that letter to the committee if any doubt is entertained in the matter. It seems to me there is something wrong with a system under which such a proposition as that can be made. The trouble with the man is that he is not able to work. But what I am objecting to is that the board in Vancouver takes the objection that the disability if there is disability is not due to war services at all, or at least that that fact has not been established, that the onus of proof is on the man himself. Surely such an attitude as that is ridiculous. As a matter of fact, the man has been aided by an organization of a more or less charitable character
[Stage Direction]
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[Stage Direction]
at the coast. Through its agency the man was sent to Chicago where one of the most eminent surgeons on the continent is located with whom he got in touch. That surgeon happened to be the very one who performed the first operation on the man in question. I have statements signed by that surgeon testifying to the man's condition, accompanied by X-ray photographs showing clearly that there is still a piece of shrapnel in his head. And yet according to the opinion of the medical advisers of the department something more than that must be proved. Surely such an argument as that is most inhuman. I cannot imagine how the minister, after hearing all these facts, could allow the matter to rest as it is. In my opinion quite a different attitude should be adopted. Here is a man who should be getting a fair and reasonable pension, because if I am any judge at all he is a physical and nervous wreck, and his condition is undoubtedly due to his war service. That is one case.
I have another case where a man had lost one eye and is getting a pension of $7.50 a month. What do you think of that? It is unbelievable but it is a fact. And that pension of $7.50 was only granted after a great deal of effort. The man is not satisfied with it, of course. He does not consider the pension a fair one; neither do I. That man served overseas and his eye was injured. Upon returning to Canada he went to the department and after keeping him under observation for some time it was decided that the eye must be taken out. It was removed and a glass eye substituted for it, and now the country pays him the magnificent sum of $7.50 a month. The reason assigned for not granting him a larger pension was that his eye was not in a good state when he went overseas. It is true that some fourteen years previously one of his eyes had been injured, but he still had the use of it and was in such good physical condition that he was accepted for service overseas. And to-day he is in receipt of the generous pension of $7.50. There is something wrong when it is possible for such treatment as this to be meted out to men who have given good service to the country.
I could go on and give further instances of unfair treatment, but I shall not do so because the chairman of the special committee investigating the cases of returned soldiers has stated that in all probability I shall have an opportunity of bringing the facts in my possession before the committee. However, I might relate the case of a man who served overseas with the Seventh battalion, was wounded there, is now in very bad shape but is not receiving a pension. Why? For two
IMr. McQuarrie.]
reasons; first, because he was over age when he enlisted. I have no sympathy whatever with an argument of that kind. They were not objecting that he was over age when the country required men. They were not objecting that he was over age when they sent him to the trenches, and he was right in the hottest part of the fight. He was wounded there. He was sent to England by instructions of General Odlam who was his officer commanding at the time. He went into hospital in England, and after he got out of hospital he was placed in "C" category. He might have come back to Canada at that time, but he said:	"If I can do any work here of a
clerical nature, I will stay, and I will let some man who is fit go overseas." He did that. Now they say to him: You should not have enlisted in the first place; that is where your trouble comes in, and in the second place, you were a very short time in the service and you had a good job in England. It is a terrible indictment of somebody when such things can happen. If they say that this man was a short time in France, what would they say about the glorious dead who were a much shorter time in the field than he was? If the Board of Appeal has any merit whatever, its jurisdiction should be increased so as to cover cases like this. As it is, these men have no place to go with their complaints except to the medical officers, who, as far as I can see, are anxious as much as possible to keep down expenditure, to keep down pensions, and to keep men from getting pensions wherever possible. I suggest that the minister 'who is, I believe, doing his very best to accord fair treatment in deserving cases, should take under advisement this question of increasing the jurisdiction of the appeal board, or of having some kind of tribunal where men who are getting inadequate pensions can go and be assured of receiving a fair and square hearing.
Henri Sévérin Béland: I will carry in mind all
the remarks that my hon. friend has presented to the committee, and I will endeavour to give the most careful consideration to them, also to the particular cases to which he has referred.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Special publicity, $5,000.
Robert James Manion: Why the decrease from
$20,000 to $5,000?


Henri Sévérin Béland: It was intended last year
to publish a pamphlet, but the final reports of the royal commission were not produced in time to prepare that pamphlet.


[Stage Direction]
Halibut Fisheries Treaty
Robert James Manion: How much of the $20,000
was spent?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Just $600. We are asking for about $5,000 in case we require some advertising.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Civil government-Soldiers Civil Re-establishment, salaries, $28,820.
Henri Sévérin Béland: It is agreed that we leave the Federal Appeal Board and pension items, but, perhaps, we can pass the civil government item which is reduced to a very small affair. There is no change except a very small reduction, because we changed from supervisor of expenditures to the departmental accountant.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Robert James Manion: I was going to suggest
that it is now a Christian hour for gentlemen to go home and go to bed. It is about 10.30 p.m., and I think we have done a very good day's work. We have passed to-night nearly $10,000,000 of estimates.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Graham, the House adjourned at 10.30 p.m.
Monday, June 2, 1924