1923-02-27

PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 32, to incorporate The Alert Guarantee Company of Canada.-Mr. Ladner.
Bill No. 33, respecting The Canadian Niagara Bridge Company.-Mr. Stewart (Hamilton).

[Stage Direction]
Mr. W. M. GERMAN (Welland) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 31, to amend the Civil Service Amendment Act of 1919.
He said:	Mr. Speaker, perhaps the best
explanation I can give is to read the short clause of the bill. It is to amend paragraph 1 of section 2 of the Civil Service Amendment Act of 1919-which is the interpretation clause -by adding thereto these words:
rMr. Graham.]
but does not mean or include officers, clerks or employees whose tenure of office or employment is only seasonal or temporary and who are appointed at the beginning of each seasonal period.
Hon. members will see that it does not touch permanent employees. A year ago the Civil Service Commission recommended that a large number of employees should be taken from its jurisdiction. I have no doubt the intention was to include the class which is mentioned in this amendment, and I believe the commission will approve of the bill. It simply specifies the class that shall be removed from the jurisdiction of the commission -men whose employment begins early in the summer but lasts only during the summer, and who are appointed at each seasonal period as temporary employees. If this amendment is accepted I think it will do away very largely, if not altogether, with one of the prime objections to the Civil Service Act. The civil service commissioners themselves recognized this when they recommended the withdrawal of a large number of this class of employees from their jurisdiction.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. W. R. MOTHERWELL (Minister of Agriculture) moved that the House go into committee to-morrow to consider the following proposed resolution:
Resolved, that it is expedient to amend subsection one of section six of the Animal Contagious Diseases Act, chapter seventy-five of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1906, as enacted by section one of chapter seven of the statutes of 1922, and to provide that the words "two hundred dollars for each head of cattle" in the eighteenth line thereof be stricken out and be replaced by the words "one hundred and fifty dollars for each head of cattle"; to further provide that this act come into operation on the first day of July, nineteen hundred and twenty-three, and that the minister may order compensation to be paid to the owners of animals slaughtered on or after the first day of July, nineteen hundred and twenty-two, but which had been valued and ordered to be slaughtered prior to that date, at the rates authorized by statute before the coming into force of said chapter seven; also to provide that the minister may order compensation for animals which may be slaughtered on or after the first day of July, nineteen hundred and twenty-three, but valued and ordered to be slaughtered from the first day of July, nineteen hundred and twenty-two to the thirtieth June, nineteen hundred and twenty-three, both dates inclusive, at the rates authorized by chapter seven of the statutes of 1922.
He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the House.
Motion agreed to.

Redistribution


[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. DONALD SUTHERLAND (South Oxford) :: Mr. Speaker, as a member of the special committee appointed by this House to which was referred Bill No. 15, an Act to Readjust the Representation of the House of Commons, introduced by the Prime Minister on the 13th instant, I desire to direct the attention of the leader of the government -I am sorry the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) is not here-and of the members of this House, to a statement which appeared in the Ottawa press of to-day, alleged to have been made by a prominent supporter of the government, dealing with the question referred to this committee. The statement is as follows-


Mr. SPEAKER:: I ask the hon gentlemen not to read any article from the press, but rather to give the House a synopsis of it.


Donald Sutherland: It is really a synopsis that is given in the press. However, I will not read it. The effect of the statement is that at a meeting of the Welland county Liberals yesterday the member for Welland (Mr. German) stated that Thorold would be added to Lincoln and Wainfleet to Haldimand under the redistribution act. I would like to ask the leader of the government, in view of the fact that the committee to which the bill was referred, has not only not met but has not yet been notified to meet, whether the government have already decided upon a plan of redistribution and have worked out the details which were supposed to have been submitted to the committee.


Hewitt Bostock: I must ask the hon. member not to insist on that question. He is anticipating legislation which has already been referred to a committee of the House.


Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: I would very respectfully suggest, Mr. Speaker, that there is one question which is certainly in order, namely; was the hon. gentleman authorized to make the statement?


Mr. W. M. GERMAN (Welland):: As I am the gentleman referred to, having attended the annual convention of the Liberal Association in the county of Welland yesterday and made the statement, if I have the permission of the House, I will state exactly what I said. I pointed out that the county of Welland had,
by reason of its great prosperity, increased in population to such an extent that it nearly equalled the population of the two adjoining counties of Lincoln and Haldimand; that it was possible in the redistribution of constituencies certain sections of the county of Welland might be removed therefrom and added to the counties <5f Lincoln and Haldimand so as to adjust the representation according to the regular unit of population; and that if such should happen to be the case, the town of Thorold and the township of Wainfleet, adjoining on either side the counties of Lincoln and Haldimand, would be the only municipalities in the county of Welland that could possibly be removed from the county of Welland and added to the counties of Lincoln and Haldimand; that so far as Thorold was concerned I was quite willing that it should go to the county of Lincoln, and that I preferred to retain Wainfleet as an adjunct of the county of Welland.



INQUIRY INTO AGRICULTURE

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. ANDREW KNOX (Prince Albert):: In view of the adverse agricultural conditions prevailing and the reference made thereto in the Speech from the Throne, and in view of the fact that this House has on various occasions been given to understand that a special committee would be appointed to inquire into those conditions, I would like to ask the government when this committee will be appointed.


Hon. W. R. MOTHERWELL (Minister of Agriculture):: Owing to the illness of the
Prime Minister we have not yet decided on the chairmanship of this committee, but we hope in the course of a day or two to have it' convene and organize.



EMPIRE SETTLEMENT SCHEME

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon.   S@: I desire to call the attention of the government to an article appearing in the press to the effect that under the Empire Settlement Scheme adopted by the parliament of Great Britain, Australia and New Zealand have received some 11,000 immigrants, while only 130 have gone to Canada. I wish to ask whether these figures are correct, and why Canada as is indicated by the article, is not co-operating with the Mother Country with a view of getting immigrants partly at the Mother Country's expense.
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Hon. CHARLES STEWART (Minister of Immigration):: I cannot give my hon. friend the information he seeks with respect to numbers, but I might say that this week the Deputy Minister of Immigration is leaving for the Old Land for the purpose of arranging co-operation with the Overseas Settlement Board for this year. Futt explanation will be given when the estimates of the department are brought down.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is there any assurance that the money will not be all gone before the deputy gets there? The system has been in operation for quite a long time.


Mr. JACOBS:: Knowing who the deputy is, we would not be surprised.



DEPARTMENT OF SOLDIERS' CIVIL REESTABLISHMENT

[Stage Direction]
The House again in Committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
Civil government-Civil Service Commission-salaries, $188,305; contingencies, $80,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: Before these estimates are considered, I find on looking at page 87 that the details of this particular vote are in the same form as the details in connection with the vote for Agriculture. When we were considering the estimates last, the government, led at that time by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding), promised to furnish the proper details for the Civil Government votes.


The CHAIRMAN:: The item we are considering is not the Civil Service Commission vote, but item No. 27, Soldiers' Civil Reestablishment, salaries and contingencies.


Mr. GRAHAM:: I might say in reply to my hon. friend, in order that there may be no misunderstanding, that the Minister of Finance has asked to have the particulars given, so far as Civil Government is concerned, as they were given last. year. There has been quite a departure in the last four years, but we will not argue about that now. The Civil Government estimates for any department will not be taken up until such time as the Estimates are placed before the committee in the form desired.
Civil government-Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment- salaries, $29,200; contingencies, $10,000.


Henry Lumley Drayton: This is Civil Government again.


Hon. H. S. BELAND (Minister of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment):: In the case of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment, the civil government vote is very small. It comprises only seven or eight employees. Most of the salaries in this department are usually paid 
out under another item in the Main Estimates for salaries. In this instance perhaps my hon. friends will not insist upon the details being printed as will be the case with the other departments. The employees are the deputy minister, the assistant deputy minister, supervisor of expenditure, chief clerk and assistant secretary, head clerk, principal clerk, storekeeper, and one librarian; that is all. The total vote for salaries for the next fiscal year is $29,200. That shows a slight reduction as compared with last year, on account of the services of one employee being dispensed with. The draughtsman, who was needed in former years, is no longer required.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What was his salary?


Henri Sévérin Béland: It was $2,040. The difference between this year's vote and last year's is not so much as the amount I have just mentioned, on account of statutory increases being granted to some of the employees. I shall be glad to give the salaries of the officials I have named. Deputy minister, $6,000; assistant deputy minister, $5,000; supervisor of expenditure, $5,000. These three are receiving the same salary as last year-no increase. The chief clerk and assistant secretary gets $3,480, which includes a statutory increase of $120; head clerk, $2,880; principal clerk, $2,280; storekeeper, $2,400; librarian, $560. The position of senior draughtsman is done away with, as well as the allowance of $600 for private secretary. That is all that is contained in the civil government list of this department. Hon. gentlemen may say that it is a very small list compared with the amount which is paid out in salaries in this department. That is true, but it has been customary ever since the department was constituted to pay only these few officials under the civil government vote.


Henry Lumley Drayton: We desire to stand by the principle which was conceded by the government the other evening, but in this case the item is small and we can carry the details in our heads. I think we can all understand the brief explanation that has been made. The item shows a reduction, and so far as I am concerned I am perfectly willing to let it go through.


Mr. BOYS:: Have the services of the senior draughtsman been dispensed with, or has he been transferred to another department?


Henri Sévérin Béland: His services have been dispensed with.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Supply-Re-establishment
Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment-capital, $30,000.
Henri Sévérin Béland: This item is considerably smaller than the vote last year. The amount expended up to the 31st of December, 1922, was $46,495. We expect that this year we shall be able to meet the requirements for the purpose indicated, with $30,000. The amount is required for new fixtures and improvements to leased property. We are spending a very small amount in this regard. Last year we spent $9,000, and this year up to the first of January last only $1,500 has been expended. The balance of the vote is required for new equipment in machinery and furnishings for hospitals and sanatoria, insignificant additions to the capital expenditure, such as the purchase of a table for a hospital, or some smaller piece of furniture. This item is small, and shows a big reduction as compared with last year.


Mr. CALDWELL:: Might I call the minister's attention to the fact that the committee last year recommended that the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment endeavour to hand over as far as possible the care of the patients to other hospitals and discontinue that branch of the work of this department. I would like to ask the minister what has been done along that line.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I shall be glad to give the
information. When I was in the committee last year, for the same purpose we had seventeen hospitals administered by the department. During the course of the last twelve months it has been possible to close three of of them in accordance with the wish then expressed by members of the House, and the patients in these hospitals have been concentrated in some other of our institutions. So far we have not been able to close any more hospitals, but I may state frankly that it is intended to close one or two others within a few months when we find that we have sufficient accommodation in the remaining institutions. What we are adopting is really a process of concentration.


Mr. CLARK:: Which hospitals will be closed?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am not in a position at present to say definitely. The matter is now being considered by the Director of Medieal Services and myself, and I would be somewhat reluctant, to mention the hospitals that are likely to be closed until a definite decision has been reached.


Mr. MacKELVIE:: What hospitals have been closed?


Henri Sévérin Béland: The Strathco'na hospital in Edmonton, the Sunnyside hospital in Calgary, and the Sydenham hospital in Kingston.


Mr. GOULD:: It seems to me that the committee have a right to expect that the officers who advise the minister as to what moneys are required, should place in his hands definite and exact information as to every item for which a vote is asked.


Henri Sévérin Béland: My hon. friend is quite right in his contention but I would point out that this department is somewhat different to the others. It is one which has been created out of nothing, and which grew info an institution, expending, at one time, as much as $30,000,000. It is very difficult indeed, even for the most competent officials, under the circumstances in which we are situated, to say exactly what amount will be required for the following year. Nevertheless I fully realize what my hon. friend has said, that they should be, as near as possible, conversant with the whole situation. If any portion of the required vote is unexpended the balance, of course, will remain in the treasury.


Mr. ROSS (Kingston):: The minister referred to tables. I do not know whether he means operating tables or ordinary tables, but it seems to me that there should be enough supplies on hand in the hospitals which are closed to enable the department to carry on.


Henri Sévérin Béland: It is intended, of course, to use whatever supplies are on hand. The amount which is called for is much smaller than it was last year, and, as I have already said, is an estimate only. The fact that we ask for such a vote does not mean that the whole amount will be spent or even the half of it, but we think that we may require that amount. I can assure hon. gentlemen that I am doing my best to impress upon the officials the necessity of practising economy to the very limit.


John Arthur Clark: Would the minister give us figures showing the numbers treated in the military hospitals for a period of say three years?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have no objection at all to answer the question of my hon. friend, but it seems to me that when we come to the next item dealing with the care of patients and the medical examination of pensioners I might more appropriately give to my hon. friend the information for which he asks.


William Alves Boys: I noticed in last year's estimates of this department an item of $75,000 of which, apparently,, only $9,000 was spent.
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Henri Sévérin Béland: Oh, no.


William Alves Boys: If that be the case why was there such a discrepancy between the two items? Will the minister give us some idea of the items which were asked for and not required, and will he state whether they form part of the $30,000 now called for? "


Henri Sévérin Béland: In my previous answers I must have unintentionally misled the committee, if that is my hon. friend's impression, because the amount that was expended up to 31st December last was $36,000.


Samuel William Jacobs: I do not know whether I am in order in bringing to the attention of the committee a speech made by the leader of the Opposition in the county of Essex in which he stated that these estimates were to be cut down by $3,000,000 to the direct detriment of the widows and orphans of those who fought in France and Flanders. Perhaps the minister could give us some information on that point.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I was expecting to hear you, Mr. Chairman, declare the hon. gentleman out of order. I do not know that a speech made by the leader of the Opposition in the county of Essex is subject to review in connection with this particular item. If the chairman rules that it is, we are perfectly prepared to. discuss the matter and to do so at some length.


Samuel William Jacobs: Perhaps my hon. friend
would find it rather awkward if the facts in connection with this matter were to be aired now and given to the country.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Not at all. We have not the slightest objection. If the Chair should rule that this matter is in order we are quite willing to go on. I would point out, however, that what my hon. friend stated was not said by the leader of the Opposition.
'W hat he did say was, that there had been that amount of reduction made in the expenditure during last year.


Samuel William Jacobs: He also said something
about _ this reduction being one that affects the widows and orphans of the soldiers who died overseas.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Henri Sévérin Béland: If I am in order I have no objection to making a statement.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Everything is
in order.


Mr. STEVENS:: Especially in the absence of the leader of the Opposition.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have no desire at all to
say anything except this-the statement as it appeared in the newspapers is totally inaccurate and I cannot believe that the leader of the Opposition would have permitted such a statement to slip from his lips. I trust that later on it will be made apparent that I have good reason for expressing such a doubt.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Apparently this is all in order. The only thing that I thought -and I may be wrong again-was that the leader of the Opposition, dealing with pledges made by hon. gentlemen across the carpet during the election period, dealing with their pledges that there would be a cash bonus given to soldiers, dealing with their pledges as to Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment, said that the only thing that had been done was that a reduction of $3,200,000 odd had been effected in the expenditure of this department. I ask the minister if that is not true?


Henri Sévérin Béland: There has been more than $3,000,000 of a reduction-


Henry Lumley Drayton: Certainly, that is what he said.


Henri Sévérin Béland: -but not at the expense of the widows and orphans of the men who died overseas.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Care of patients and medical examination of pensioners, $3,500,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: I wonder if the minister can tell us the number of patients cared for at the time the last estimates were up for consideration, and the number of patients now in hospital.


Henri Sévérin Béland: 
Henry Lumley Drayton: That is this year?


Henri Sévérin Béland: That is as of the 31st December, 1922.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What I wanted to get at was how the hospital population compared now with what we had before.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I misunderstood my hon. friend, but I hope the information I have given is satisfactory.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Very interesting.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I will undertake to give my hon. friend the information he seeks. The
figures are:
December 31,	1919	
8,031December 31,	1920	
6,431December 31,	1921	
5,930December 31,	1922	
4,307
The hon. member will see that there is a reduction in the number of patients, happily, in our D. S. C. R. hospitals.


Mr. STEWART (Humboldt):: Could the hon. minister tell us the number classified as tubercular and mental, and tell us whether the number is reduced?


Henri Sévérin Béland: In order to do that, I shall have to take the inpatients on pay and allowances for eveiy year. That is rather a long statement. I have no objection to giving it to my hon. friend, but I will take the tubercular inpatients only now:
1919		 1,486
1920		 1,096
1921		 1,054
1922		 982
Those are tubercular inpatients, receiving pay and allowances. The number of outpatients is a great deal smaller. They vary from year to year, from 1919 to 1922, from 57, to 11, 10 and 40. The tubercular outpatients on pay and allowances are rather on the increase.


John Armstrong MacKelvie: Could the minister say what proportion of that reduction was due to death and what proportion to other causes?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have that information somewhere, but I do not believe I can lay my hand on it at the present time. Of course, a certain proportion would disappear through death, and a certain proportion also are discharged from the sanatoria as improved, but some of these are kept under the observation of 'the department as outpatients, some are let out with full pensions, and some, of course, are considered as cured and then might, in the judgment of the pension board, receive a pension commensurate with what they think the disability amounts to.


Charles Wallace Stewart: Without
troubling the minister to read the long list, I should like to know if mental cases are decreasing otherwise than through death; in other words, if the mental treatment is proving successful.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Unhappily the number is on the increase. These figures I give are up to the last of the year:
Inpatients not on pay and
Inpatients Outpatients allowances
1919	. 664	36	231920	,. 639	16	2071921	.. 618	5	2581922	.. 680	44	289


Charles Wallace Stewart: Could the minister tell us the names of the institutions where mental cases are being treated, and the number under treatment?


Henri Sévérin Béland: The department has two important mental institutions, one at Westminster hospital, near London, and the other at St. Anne de Bellevue, near Montreal. The number of inpatients, mental cases in each of those hospitals is about 450.


Charles Wallace Stewart: Are there any cases in the provincial institutions?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes, a number of patients are also distributed in the different provinces. I suppose I should be in a position to give my hon. friend all the information he seeks in this regard. We have, as he knows, mental institutions throughout the country. There are in unit A, which is Montreal unit, two mental institutions, one called St. Jean de Dieu, and the other the Protestant General, both in Montreal. We have twelve patients in those institutions. In the Maritime provinces, we have at Falconwood three mental cases, and at Dartmouth, three. At St. John Asylum, St. John, we have none. In the Ottawa unit, we have, at Brockville, two, and at King-
Supply-Re-establishment

ston-Rockwood-fourteen. In D unit, which is Toronto, we have at Toronto, seven; at Hamilton, none; at MimiQo, four, and at Whitby, ten. In unit F, which is Guelph, we have no patients. In the Winnipeg unit, we have at Selkirk, 65 mental cases. In H unit, which is Regina, we have at Battleford, 49. In Calgary unit, we have at Ponoka, sixteen, and at Red Deer, 35. In British Columbia, we have at New Westminster, fourteen, and at Vancouver 66. Those are mental patients in institutions other than departmental institutions, of which we have two.


William Alves Boys: The minister gave us a table showing that in 1919, the number of patients ' was something over 8,000, and that number has gradually been reduced, until at the end of 1922, it is down to 4,307 patients. I notice there is a reduction this year of $500,000 in this item as compared with last year, a very substantial reduction. Is that due wholly to the reduced number of patients? If not, to what other cause may the reduction be attributed?


Henri Sévérin Béland: It is mainly due to the reduction in the number of patients, the general cost of keeping the patients in hospital.


William Alves Boys: I am not referring to some trivial amount. Is that really the cause of the reduction beyond some trivial sums?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What amount was spent last year under this head?


John Arthur Clark: Would the minister at the same time give us the figures for the preceding year?


Henri Sévérin Béland: On 31st December last, we had spent $2,746,525.


Mr. CARMICHAEL:: Has the department any hospitals for taking care of tubercular patients, other than those regularly provided in the different provinces? I am thinking more particularly of Saskatchewan, which is at present overcrowded with tubercular patients.


Henri Sévérin Béland: The department has four different sanatoria; one in Quebec, which they cstfl the Laurentian sanatorium at Ste. Agathe; One in the Maritime provinces, called the Jordan Memorial at River Glade; one at Kingston, called the Mowat sanatorium, and one in Saskatchewan, called the Qu'Appelle sanatorium.


Archibald M. Carmichael: How many patients are in the provincial sanatorium at Qu'Appelle under departmental supervision, and what is the rate paid for their care?


Henri Sévérin Béland: In Saskatchewan we have sixty-seven patients in the Fort Qu'Appelle sanatorium, and the cost is $3.30 per day per patient.


Charles Wallace Stewart: Where those patients, either tubercular or mental, are mantained in provincial institutions, does the minister's department pay the same rate as that ordinarily charged by such institutions, or has it a special rate with them?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I understand that the rate is the prevailing one.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Does the minister think that he really needs this large amount? I want to point out in the first instance that he comes down with his figures 8,000, 6,000, 5,000 and 4,000, or a drop of approximately-I have not the exact figures

25 per cent in the number of inhabitants this year, and there is a reduction in the appropriation of one-eighth. The actual
4 p.m. reduction in the number of inmates would make it appear that a much larger reduction should be made, and that the minister does not really need the money. On the figures the minister gives us of the amount which he has spent for the first ten months of this year, namely, $2,746,000, if he keeps his bills up fairly well, as I suppose he does, and if you take the twelve months on the same basis, the whole expenditure would be under $3,300,000 on the basis of the larger population. Has the minister considered these items? I do not suppose he wants to swell his estimates, and we do not want to put on one penny that is not necessary. This would look as if on his own showing, he was asking for something that .he does not require.


Henri Sévérin Béland: No, Mr. Chairman, I am
quite satisfied that I am not asking for anything that I do not require. I think it will be obvious to every hon. gentleman that we cannot reduce the cost of administration of our hospitals proportionately to the number of patients. For instance, if a hospital containing fifty patients costs us, say, $100,600 a year, and we reduce the patients to twenty-five, we shall not be able to make a corresponding reduction in our expenses, for, of course, the overheads, such as heating, light, and so on, are the same. As regards the amount that was spent during the first nine months of the current fiscal year, my hon. friend (Sir Henry Drayton) if he calculates aright will find that the amount is much larger than he has figured.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I understood it was for the ten months' period.

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Henri Sévérin Béland: No, nine months.	But
even at that it must be recognized that the three months of January, February and March are the three worst months in our hospitals. There is more sickness prevailing, and we have generally a good many more patients to take care of during these three months than all the rest of the year, which will account perhaps for a larger expenditure. I have gone through these figures very carefully with the officials of the department with a view to reducing them to the lowest possible amount, but it will be recognized that we must have money enough for the purpose for which this vote 'is intended, and the purpose is so noble in itself that the department would fail in the discharge of their duties to our sick soldiers if they tried to get along with a lesser appropriation. I am sure no hon. member would like to see our returned men neglected.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Everyone recognizes the truth of the hon. minister's statement in connection with the overheads, but I hope he is not going to forget what is the answer to the question of overheads, namely, consolidation. When the hospital population falls below a certain number the proper course to pursue is to put the patients into another hospital where there is room for them, and in that way cut down the overhead. I hope my hon. friend will not overlook this suggestion.


Henri Sévérin Béland: When the number of
patients becomes reduced to a certain point we close the hospital. That has happened often.


John Arthur Clark: Can the minister give us the figures to show the number of patients in specific hospitals to-day compared with the number in those same hospitals in past years, so that we may be in a position to compare the overhead expenses?


Henri Sévérin Béland: These figures are not under my hand at the present time. The closing of the hospitals is not brought about only by reason of a reduction in the number of patients; we must be in a position also to accommodate the remaining patients at a not too distant point from the place where they were first hospitalized. That is a consideration. As to a general reduction in expenditure, I am sure I shall be borne out by my hon. friend when I state that that is a sure way of effecting economy.


Oliver Robert Gould: Is there included in this vote a sum to take care of what I might call transients-returned soldiers who might be taken ill when passing through a municipality? I have a case in point. The municipality does
not recognize such an individual as a resident, and yet, owing to the fact that he entrained for the hospital within the borders of the municipality the hospital to which he was sent threatens to take action against the municipality for payment of services rendered to the unfortunate soldier.


Henri Sévérin Béland: This amount would cover every possible treatment of soldiers. In such a case as that cited by my hon. friend (Mr. Gould) it is always a question whether the ex-service man would be entitled to treatment at the hands of the department. Such cases come under our consideration quite often, and whenever we are able to ascertain that the patient so treated in a hospital entirely outside of our own institutions was entitled to treatment we refund the amount spent for his care.


Oliver Robert Gould: I would understand from the statement of the minister, then, that the disability from which the soldier suffers must be the direct consequence of his service overseas before he is recognized as being entitled to treatment? Or would a returned man under the conditions I have stated be entitled to treatment of whatever ailment he might be suffering from?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Of course, the regulations of the department provide that a man can be treated with pay and allowances only when his disability or illness is connected with his military service. But, as I attempted to show the committee only a few minutes ago, there are a number of patients in our hospitals who do not receive pay and allowances. There is grave doubt as to the attributability in their cases, but on compassionate grounds they are admitted to hospital for observation without pay and allowances. But the general rule is, and it is the spirit of the law, that an exservice man can only be treated for a disability which is connected in some way with his war service.	[DOT]


William Alves Boys: Is it the policy of the department to reimburse municipalities which are called upon to pay for the treatment of returned soldiers placed in provincial hospitals?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Only in those cases where it can be demonstrated to the department by medical evidence that the soldier was treated for an illness attributable to his war service.


Arthur Edward Ross: What was the number of medical officers employed at the Sydenham hospital at the date of its closing, and how many are to-day employed by the D.S.C. R. at Kingston?

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Henri Sévérin Béland: The number at the time of the closing of the hospital, on 1st January, 1923, was eleven.


Arthur Edward Ross: How many are employed now by the D.S.C.R. at Kingston? I
want to see what reduction was made.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Five.


Arthur Edward Ross: What are their names?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have not their names before me. There is one medical representative for the district, one assistant, one oculist, one surgeon and one interne. Those are the five employed now in place of the eleven who were formerly in our service.


Arthur Edward Ross: I can add to that list; there are two others, including a surgeon.


Henri Sévérin Béland: We must have a medical representative, of course, and an assistant, so that any soldier who comes to receive treatment or to put in a claim for pension may be examined. Besides that, we have in the two hospitals in which the patients discharged from Sydenham Hospital were placed, the three officers I have mentioned. These are regularly employed; we have also a physician who makes bacteriological or pathological examinations, but he is paid only by fees, according to what work he does.


Arthur Edward Ross: That is eight out of eleven. I had omitted to mention the bacteriologist. You are now looking after only those cases which are not tubercular, and where you had eleven in the hospital you have eight now.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I think my hon. friend is mistaken. I have here a statement from the Director of Medical Services which gives the number I have stated. There are five men where there were eleven, and one also who was formerly paid $200 per month but who now receives a fee only when he makes an examination.


Arthur Edward Ross: I contend that there are seven or eight.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I will have a personal conversation with my hon. friend on the subject. I have given the statement I have from the Director of Medical Services.


Mr. CARROLL:: I hope the Minister will not think that I am trying to retard the progress of his estimates, but this thought has occurred to me; there is a commission abroad in the land, the chairman of which is Colonel Ralston, a man well known in this country.

That commission is giving attention to the question of tuberculosis. The operations of this commission are a most important phase of the whole work of re-establishment, pensions and so on, and I humbly suggest to the minister that opportunity should be given under some item of the estimates for the discussion of the commission's report. Personally-and I am not following the government for the time being-I believe that if this commission does not bring in a report which is acceptable to the Canadian people, we should be given an opportunity to discuss it fairl}' in this House and criticize it where it is faulty.	*


Henri Sévérin Béland: I assure my hon. frend
that full opportunity will be provided for the discussion by the House of whatever report is made by the royal commission to which he has referred. That will come later in the session. Legislation will have to be introduced respecting pensions and re-establishment, but we shall have to wait until the report is received.


William F. Carroll: Shall we have an opportunity of discussing the report in Committee of the Whole, so that we may ask questions and so on, as it is not possible to do if the report is presented to the House in the ordinary way ?


Henri Sévérin Béland: As I have said, legislation
will be introduced later in the session amending the Pension Act and also the insurance and other re-establishment provisions. The House will then be in Committee of the Whole, and my hon. friend will have the opportunity he desires.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: As a past member of
the pension committee I had expected that the royal commission would before this have reported its findings on the charges made against the Pension Board. I understood from the order in council appointing the commission that they were to report on that phase of the inquiry before proceeding to investigate the general subjects involved in soldiers' pensions and re-establishment. I have been disappointed to find that that report was not brought down early in the session and is not in fact before us at this time.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have myself been expecting the report on the first phase of the work of the commission, that is, with reference to the charges made against the Pension Board by some veterans' association. The report is not yet at hand, but I think it is only fair to say that in the latter part of the investigation bearing upon pensions it was declared by representatives of the veter-

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ans as well as by representatives of departments before the commission that the charge of conspiracy to deprive ex-service men might very well be waived.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Then there is all the
more reason why we should have had this report. It is not a healthy thing to have the matter continue in its present state of uncertainty. These charges were made, and if they are substantiated action should be taken; if not, the country should know it at the earliest possible moment.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have already taken steps to hasten the submission of the report by the commission. I expect it very shortly.


John Arthur Clark: The Minister has stated
that legislation will undoubtedly be submitted to parliament at this session embodying amendments to the Pension Act and the Insurance Act based upon the report of this commission. Has the minister a preliminary or other report from the commission that we have not got, or has he any information that he can give us now on which any such legislation would be based?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have no report, either
confidential or official. I am expecting a report almost daily.


Mr. MacLAREN:: Does this vote cover
the cost of the supplying of artificial limbs?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes.	.


Murray MacLaren: In how many factories
in Canada are these artificial limbs made?


Henri Sévérin Béland: In only one factory now,
in Toronto; but there are distributing centres in the larger Canadian cities.


John Arthur Clark: How many medical officers
were in the employ of the department in the years 1920 and 1921, and in the year that has just closed?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have with me a list of all the medical officers of the department. I have not counted them, but there is a considerable reduction in the number of medical men employed by the department in the different units. While the reduction is substantial, it may not appear as large as one would expect. It must be realized, however, that in a unit like Winnipeg, for instance, you may have a few hundred patients in the hospital, but whatever the number of patients may be practically the same number of medical men are required. An ex-service man may come into a unit any day claiming that he is suffering from any disability, and you must have ready to meet him a medical
43*
man who will give him an examination. It is impossible to turn out an ex-service man who presents himself for treatment. He may have no shadow of a claim for treatment, but if he is an ex-service man and comes into a unit and reports himself sick and claims treatment, there is nothing to do but subject him to a close examination, and for that one soldier you will require perhaps-indeed, it is very likely-the services of a chest specialist, the services of an X-ray man, the services of a specialist in genita-urinary diseases; you may require a surgeon and an eye specialist; so whatever the number of men who report in any one year for treatment, you must always have five or six different specialists ready to meet their contentions. I say that because I myself, though I am a medical man, was under the impression at the time that the number of medical officers in the department could be reduced very greatly, but it is not so. We find we have to keep in our service a larger number of medical officers than at first would appear necessary. I confess, however, that a substantial reduction has been effected in this direction, and we are reducing our medical staff constantly.


John Arthur Clark: Is it not possible for the minister to give the figures?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am sorry that I cannot lay my hands on them at the moment, but I may be able to give them officially to my hon. friend to-morrow.


Murray MacLaren: Can the minister give the figures for the nursing sisters, showing the reductions in the last three years?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes. The figures in connection with the nurses' staff in our different hospitals [DOT] are as follows:
Ste. Anne's	 35
Ste. Agathe	 3
Camp Hill, Halifax	 17
Jordan Memorial	 7
Lancaster	 _ g
Sydenham (now closed)	 13
Mowat Memorial Sanatorium	 10
Euclid Hall, Toronto	 7
Christie Street Hospital, Toronto	 52
Brant Hospital, Hamilton	 16
Westminster	 26
Deer Lodge	 3
Col. Belcher, Calgary	 _ jj
Central Alberta Sanatorium	 n
Shaughnessy Hospital, Vancouver	 20
Total	 244


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Do I understand that you have thirteen nurses in a hospital that is closed?


Henri Sévérin Béland: We had them, but they have been discharged from the service.
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Thomas Wakem Caldwell: In connection with this
vote, while I am one of the strongest advocates in this House of economy, we must not hamper the minister in this branch of the service. I feel that we owe to the returned men adequate care. I realize the force of what the minister has said in regard to the medical staff. You cannot turn the ex-service men away without consideration, and in order to give them consideration you must have a medical staff. I think we must vote this item and leave it to the good judgment of the minister-and I think we all have a great deal of faith in his good judgment-to exercise the greatest economy possible consistent with proper service to the returned men.


John Arthur Clark: I think I may claim to be as ardent a supporter of the interests of the returned men as the hon. gentleman who has just spoken. I think that one of the most extraordinary statements I have ever listened to is the statement of the hon. member for Victoria and Carleton (Mr. Caldwell) that we must not question this vote.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I rise to a question of privilege. I did not say that we must not question this vote. I said that we should not hamper the minister. I do not want the hon. member to put words into my mouth that I did not use.


John Arthur Clark: I understood the hon. member to say that we must give the minister a free hand and leave it to his judgment as to whether or not the amount is required. I question that absolutely. I want to know the details for which this money is to be expended, and I want to know how money voted in previous years has been expended. If we find that there is any of this money which is not legitimately required for this purpose, some of it may be devoted to the returned soldiers' interests where it is required, and ' there are many ways, I suppose, in which we can use the money in the interests of the returned soldiers, and not throw it away on medical service or other services if the money is {lot absolutely and specifically required for these particular things. I think we must ask the minister to give us a little more definite answer than he has done so far.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am ready.


John Arthur Clark: So far as I am concerned, I am not quite satisfied with the definiteness of the answers that have been given by the minister so far.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I shall be glad to supplement the information which I gave to my hon.

friend. I have now the figures under my hand. My hon. friend asked about the number of doctors employed in the hospitals. I have here the list:
Doctors	Full Time	Part TimeSte. Annes	. 7	6Ste. Agathe	. 2	Camp Hill	. 4	5Jordan Memorial	. 2	Lancaster	. 3	4Svdenham	. 5	2Mowat Memorial	. 3	Euclid Hall	. 1	Christie Street	. 14	2Brant Hospital, Hamilton .	. 6	1Westminster	. 9	Deer Lodge	. 1	Col. Belcher	. 2	Central, Alberta	. 3	Shaughnessy	. 3	6Total	. 65	26
These figures of course, apply only to hospitals, and not to the clinics or the union headquarters for pension examination, or the examinations of soldiers who come in claiming treatment.


John Arthur Clark: There are other doctors who are employed by the department?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes we have a number of representatives of the department located in the different towns and cities of Canada outside of the unit cities which are-Halifax, St. John, Montreal, Ottawa, Kingston (sub-unit), Toronto, London (Ontario), Winnipeg, Regina, Calgary and Vancouver. Outside of these cities we have, of course, a certain number of medical officials who, for the purpose of convenience are acting for the department either discharging duties as pension examiners or as treatment examiners. In the province of Quebec we have 26 of these, distributed in the different cities and towns; in Nova Scotia, 52; in Prince Edward Island, 12; in New Brunswick, 21; Cape Breton Island, 23-making a total for the Maritime provinces of 108. In the three divisions of Ontario we have the following: Eastern, 46; Central, 70; Western, 45; making 161 for the province of Ontario. Then there are in Manitoba 55, in Saskatchewan, 12, in Alberta 42, in British Columbia 72, making a total of 476 medical representatives of the department. These medical officials are not employed for full time, or even for part time; they are paid fees whenever an examination is required from, them.


John Arthur Clark: Would the minister give a comparison with the previous years?


Henri Sévérin Béland: The number would be about the same.

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John Arthur Clark: The totals I mean.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have not got the figures but the representatives in question have been there for a number of years.


Mr. LOVETT:: Could the minister give us the number engaged for full time and the number engaged for part time in Halifax during 1919-20?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am sorry that I cannot state offliand what reduction has been made in the Halifax unit. I think we have dispensed with three medical ofiicers during the last year. I am not absolutely certain, but there has been a reduction there.


Mr. ANDERSON:: I have no desire to delay the passage of these estimates, but I would like to ask the minister to give the number of patients that were treated at Brant hospital, also the number of patients still there, and what the total expenditure at that institution was last year.


Henri Sévérin Béland: My hon. friend was probably out of the chamber when I supplied that information. However, I have no objection to repeating it. The grand total of patients on December 31, 1921-


Robert King Anderson: Perhaps the minister misunderstood my question. I was referring particularly to the number of patients in Brant military hospital.


Henri Sévérin Béland: We had 107 there to the 31st December, 1922, for general treatment. In the same institution there were 26 tubercular cases. This makes a total of 133.


Mr. KENNEDY (Glengarry):: The vote consists of two separate items, one for the care of patients and the other for the medical examination of pensioners. Would the minister divide these and tell us how much goes to the care of patients and how much to the medical examination of pensioners?


Henri Sévérin Béland: That differentiation is rather difficult to make, my hon. friend will realize, because a large number of the medical officers are acting at the same time for the Pension Board and for the department proper. For instance, doctors are being employed in the Toronto unit who make examinations not only for pension purposes but also for treatment purposes. It would be an extremely difficult thing to say what particular amount is being spent for the examination of pensioners, and what is devoted to the care of patients. I confess it would be almost impossible for me to give that information.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Is it the policy of the department to grant a board of examination upon the application of any pensioner, and then that he should be reexamined, or is it customary to periodically examine pensioners in order to determine whether their pension should be increased or decreased?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Where the pensioner has not been declared permanent by the board he is subjected to a periodical examination. The board, of course, use their own judgment in this regard, but it would be fair to say that they examine about every six months in order to determine whether the pension should be maintained at its actual figure, increased or decreased, or discontinued entirely.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Well, is there any degree of disability which an ex-soldier must suffer before he can be declared a pensioner permanently?


Henri Sévérin Béland: It is not based so much on the degree of disability as on the nature of the disability. The disability may be only 16 per cent but it may be permanent, as the loss of one ear or the loss of one finger. In such a case the pension would be declared permanent, though it may be only 15 or 20 per cent. In other cases a man may suffer from an ulcer which is attributable to war service. If the ulcer is in the leg and prevents him from walking, he may receive 60 per cent disability pension, and he is subjected to a periodical examination, because that ulcer may be healed in six months or a year or two years, as the case may be, so that it is not based so much on the percentage of disability as on the nature of the disability.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: In the case of a pensioner who is not satisfied with the decision of the board of examination, is there anybody to whom he can make an appeal?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Last session the parliamentary committee which dealt with pensions and re-establishment made a recommendation that a certain board of appeal should be appointed for the purpose of hearing appeals by men who had been denied treatment. In every case where an ex-soldier is refused treatment by the medical officials of the department, he has an appeal to that board of appeal which is constituted independently of the department. In order to secure the appeal to this board of appeal, the soldier who is refused treatment must supply the department with a certificate from a regular practising physician stating that in his opinion the illness or the disability from which the
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man suffers can be traced to his service. In this case, and in every similar case, the appeal is being heard by that board of appeal which has been constituted as a consequence of the recommendation of the committee last year, and the decision of that board is final. That, however, applies only to treatment. Let us come to the case of pension. When an ex-service man applies for a pension his application is dealt with first of all by the pension commissioners. I need not explain what kind of a tribunal that board is. It is constituted by the statute, and the statute is known as the Pension Act. The decision as rendered by the Board of Pension Commissioners is final. Neither the minister, nor the Governor in Council, nor any court in Canada, has any authority to reverse, alter or change the decision of the Board of Pension Commissioners in any way whatsoever. During last session the committee was appointed and investigated questions of pensions and reestablishment. A recommendation was made that a board of appeal be constituted, not only for treatment but also for pensions; but in the case of pensions the appeal exists only when the board in Ottawa refused to agree with the recommendation of the pension examiner in the field. One minute ago I think my hon. friend (Mr. Clark) asked me how many medical representatives the department had in the country. I stated that there were 476. If an applicant for pension lived out in the country was examined by one of the examiners, and that examiner recommended 20 per cent disability pension in his case, and ihe board at headquarters refused to grant the 20 per cent but said it should be only 15 per cent, that would constitute a divergence of opinion between the examiner in the field and the central board, and the man may then bring his case before the board of appeal. But in the case where the recommendation of the examiner in Toronto, Winnipeg, Hamilton or Halifax, is supported and agreed to by the Board of Pension Commissioners, there is no appeal. In other words, there is an appeal in every case for a soldier who wants treatment and is denied treatment, and there is a limited appeal in the case of pensions-limited I say-where a divergence of opinion exists between the recommendation of the examiner and the Board of Pension Commissioners. In every case where the two agree, where, for instance, the board in Toronto recommends 20 per cent and the Board of Pension Commissioners agree that it shall be 20 per cent, there is no appeal, even if the man thinks he is entitled to 30 per cent. I hope I have made this clear.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: I think the minister has made the matter fairly clear. The case in point that gave rise to my question was one in which the returned man had been granted 100 per cent disability, and had been refused 100 per cent pension on account of a regulation of the Pension Board cutting a pension in two by reason of the pensioner refusing treatment. That was, I think, partially a mental case. The examiner in the field who had examined this case periodically had reported that this man was still 100 per cent disabled and reported that there was no reason why he should not be receiving 100 per cent pension, but the board did not quite agree with that report, stating that, on account of the regulation, the man was not entitled to 100 per cent disability pension, although he had 100 per cent disability. On account of refusing treatment he is still only getting 50 per cent pension.


Henri Sévérin Béland: This may be an exceptional case where a man refuses treatment when, in the opinion of the medical officers of the department, he would benefit by it. Of course hon. members will realize that if an ex-soldier suffers from a certain disability, and in the opinion of the medical officials he could be cured or highly improved by treatment, and if, treatment being recommended, the man refuses to submit himself to treatment, the board would be justified in a large measure in reducing his pension. That must be the kind of case my hon. friend refers to.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: It is, partly. I doubt very much if any of the medical examiners ever hope to improve this man's condition through treatment. I cannot recall any report of that nature in his case, and yet after going to his father's home he has improved somewhat and would prefer to stay there, rather than to take treatment; yet he is only receiving 50 per cent pension.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Has a court of appeal been established to deal with an appeal from the decision of the pensions board as regards pensions?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Who are they?


Henri Sévérin Béland: It was specified in the recommendation of the committee that it should be constituted of three medical men. They are Dr. Biggar, Dr. Chevrier and Dr. Whitton, three Ottawa physicians. They have already dealt with a number of cases, in some of which they have reversed the decision of the medical officers of the department, in others of which they have maintained the decisions.

"Mr. WHITE: In view of the explanation given to the minister as to any disagreement between the examining physician and the finding of the Pension Board, I should like to know if a man who has been examined, is given a copy of the examining officer's report, so that he may know what percentage of disability he is reported to have.


Henri Sévérin Béland: In every case, he is informed of the degree of disability. Those are the instructions to the examining officers.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Just pursuing the hon. member's question, I think that point is a little more important than many of us realize, because it causes a great deal of trouble. Sometimes a soldier, who is examined by a medical man out in the field, is told verbally by the medical examiner that there are certain things wrong with him, and he goes away with the impression that he is disabled to a certain extent and is entitled to a pension, whereas the report which is made by that medical man to the department does not contain any such recommendation as the man has the impression it does. It would be well if the minister would see that every man who applies for and receives an examination, is given a copy of the report of the medical examiner, similar to the one which is sent to the department. This would save a great deal of trouble.


Henri Sévérin Béland: The medical examiner in every case has to inform the man who is examined, what degree of disability he suffers from. As to the exact nature of the report, I would be disposed to agree with my hon. .friend as a question of general policy; but some of the reports must be treated as confidential, even in the interest of the man himself.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: I quit.e
agree with the minister; but I do not think the medical examination gives a report to the man, because many ex-soldiers have come to me to take up their cases with the department, and I have yet been unable to get from any one of them a report of a medical officer who examined them. They have told me many things which the medical examiner told them were wrong with them, and they have been wondering why they have not received more consideration from the department. It should be a rule that those examiners should give to the men a report at least substantially the same-of course, I can quite conceive that some reports must be confidential-as the one that the medical examiner sends to the department, because
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many of those men-and I suppose this is natural-think there is something seriously wrong with them and the medical man who examines them does not care to disappoint them, but keeps up their hopes as long as he possibly can that they are going to get a pension. This causes a great deal of trouble, not only to the men and to the officials of the department but to members of parliament,


Mr. WHITE:: I should like to support the
remarks of the hon. member for Glengarry and Stormont (Mr. Kennedy). Coming as I do from a city which is the centre of Military District No. 1, I have a great deal to do with the claims of returned men. I have inquired of them if they have any written
5 p.m. report from their examiners; but so far I have failed to find one. An examiner should be required to give a small amount of information, perhaps only the amount of pension to which the man is entitled, or the percentage of disability; but let the men have something in writing, so that they will not have to depend on a verbal statement, and not claim pensions on account of a m isunderst anding.


Robert King Anderson: I understand the Pension Board itself sends a report to the man along with the degree of disability and the pension to which he is entitled. The doctor in attendance does not do so, and many of these men do not know until the report is sent to the Board of Pension Commissioners what their disability is. They are accordingly Very much dissatisfied. They frequently have to wait for a very long time, and finally get from the Pension Board, a reply with which they are dissatisfied, because they think, from the remarks of the doctor, the degree of disability to which they are entitled is greater than the board allows.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am glad that this feature of the matter of examination has been brought to my attention. My intention was that every examiner should inform the applicant of the degree of disability which he was recommending in his behalf. Those are, I think, the instructions that should be carried out bv examiners, and I will certainly see that they are observed.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: I think
medical examiners in the field do not set the degree of pensionable disability. That is done by the board at Ottawa. Do the men in the field determine the degree of pensionable disability?


Henri Sévérin Béland: They express their opinion as to the degree of disability.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: In every case?
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Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes, if the application is one for a pension.


Mr. NEILL:: I wish to draw the attention of the minister and the committee to a phase of the question which I think has not been mentioned this afternoon, namely as regards the appeal board. The minister has stated very clearly the procedure provided for last year by the Pension Committee. A man who wants an appeal as regards his pension must obtain from a medical officer of the department or his medical man, an opinion which differs from that of the board at Ottawa. That is quite correct, because otherwise, the power of appeal would be open to everyone. At least that was the idea in arranging the matter in that way. In actual practice, this has worked out to what I consider a great and gross injustice as regards returned men seeking to make an appeal. I have only a very limited knowledge of the subject; very few cases come particularly to my knowledge; but I know of three in which the men have been most grossly treated by the board at Ottawa. The man secured from the military doctor, a certificate that he was entitled to a pension, and when he brought his case to me I told him that that enabled him to have an appeal from the decision of the board at Ottawa which said that he was not entitled to a pension. I took up his case, and what did I find? I found-not in one, but in three cases, and I have heard of others from other members-that while the local board, the original board, admitted that their doctor had said that the man was entitled to a pension, they got around that and forbade the appeal to the higher board, because, they said: "We gave this local doctor further information, further light on the subject, and he changed his decision." In other -words, they wrote to the local doctor in Vancouver or Toronto, wherever he might be, stating: "You had better send a new form in,"-number 685, I think it is,-"certifying that this man is not entitled to a pension." and in nine cases out of ten the doctor would do that. The board said that they gave them "further light." Yes, they gave them a hint that they had better change their opinion. Sometimes they did and sometimes they did not. If they did not, perhaps they might have difficulty in getting similar employment in the future. At any rate the committee of last year and this House and the government which passed the act never intended it to be worked out in that way, that when the man got a doctor-in one case two military doctors-who certified that he was entitled to a pension, and his right to an appeal in consequence was taken

away from him, because this board at Ottawa wrote and told the doctors, "You had better change your minds." Such a condition is most unfair to the man and is contrary to the spirit of the law passed last year.
There is only one remedy for it, and it will have eventually to come, that every man will be entitled to appeal, not before a board of doctors, who are very excellent men, but not skilled in the weighing of evidence, but before a Supreme Court judge. That is the proper person for anyone who has a grievance of any description to appeal to, for a Supreme Court judge is skilled in law of evidence and knows how to weigh the testimony adduced before him. A doctor may be a very excellent man, a man of the greatest sympathy, but he is not accustomed to accurately weighing evidence. If the appeal from the beginning is to a Supreme Court judge, there will be a series of precedents established which will not increase appeals but rather will tend to reduce them, because it will be known that along certain lines men will be entitled to certain pensions; and it will possess this great advantage, it will ensure justice to these men and prevent the board from whose decision they are appealing practically blocking the right of appeal in the way that I have indicated.


William Alves Boys: In that connection, would the minister inform the committee if in case of an appeal relative to medical treatment the appeal board does not act on the' same evidence as that presented to the board below? It seems to me that this is not a reasonable course to follow, because there would be very few cases in which there would be room for reversal, but there must be room for such when the medical practitioner supplies the certificate required.
A man should be given an opportunity of pressing his appeal before the board. Whoever heard of a court of appeal disposing of a case merely upon the evidence that had been given in the court below without hearing an advocate or someone else in support of the appeal? An appeal is almost useless unless the soldier himself is given an opportunity of appearing and pressing his appeal.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Or his representative?


William Alves Boys: I do not know whether that would mean a solicitor or advocate. I think it is the desire of the department to get away from that end of it, and I do believe the soldier himself, would be better satisfied if he had an opportunity to appear personally. Of course, if he chooses to have some one appear

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on his behalf, very well, if he can go to that expense let him do so. I would suggest that when the appeal is taken an opportunity be given to the soldier to appear in person and support his appeal. It would seem to me reasonable too that his expenses in that connection should be allowed.
While I am on my feet I want to say a word in regard to pensions. This is perhaps not directly in point here, but I think it is an opportune time to bring it to the attention of the minister. I have had two instances brought to my attention where pensions have been withdrawn from widows, and they were not even asked regarding the truth of the evidence received by the department. In the two cases I refer to the evidence involved misconduct. Now, Mr. Chairman, I think it is a very, very serious thing indeed when a widow is deprived of her pension without a hearing and on grounds which involve her social position. I protested these two cases, and one of them is still pending. In no case should a pension be set aside without the person affected being given every opportunity to be heard, and that surely is particularly essential when the honour of a woman is involved. I can refer the minister to the cases I have in mind, if necessary, and I have no doubt there are many others. It seems to me that as a general rule where it has been determined that a person is entitled to a pension the decision should not be reversed before the pensioner has been given an opportunity of being heard in some appropriate manner. I earnestly bring these cases to the attention of the minister.
From conversations I have had with soldiers, I find their main objection is that when an appeal is taken they do not know what is going on, they have no chance of presenting their case ,and in the end they are merely told that their appeal is dismissed, without being informed of the reasons which moved the board to reach its decision. None of us would be satisfied to have an appeal before a court dismissed in this way. To a soldier an appeal in the case of treatment is just as important, probably more so than the average appeal to ordinary litigants, and he should be given the same facilities to support his appeal as are accorded in our law courts.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Mr. Chairman, I want to withdraw my objection to the report of the royal commission not having yet been presented to the House. In view of the statements made by the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill) I would recommend very strongly to the minister that this matter be referred to the royal commission before they make their report. This is the most serious
charge which has been levelled against the Pension Board since its inception, and if it is true I think one-half the facts have not been told. As a member of the pension committee for three years past, I have never felt satisfied with the administration of the Pension Act by the Pension Commissioners, and was one of those instrumental in recommending that a royal commission be appointed last year to investigate the workings of the commission. I would again very strongly recommend that this matter be referred to the royal commission.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I will deal for a moment with the observations made by my hon. friend from Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill). I stated that in the first place an appeal was granted when there was divergence of opinion between the doctor in the field and headquarters. Cases have occurred where the doctor in the field has recommended, say, 10 per cent disability. Upon receipt of his report the medical officers of the Board of Pension Commissioners have opened correspondence with him with a view of coming to an understanding, representing, as my hon. friend has stated, that the examiner in the field might perhaps waive his first opinion as regards disability. In some cases he has changed his views and has come to the conclusion that headquarters officials were right. So no divergence ultimately existed between the two. I was asked as a minister to express an opinion on the possibility of an appeal being carried to the appeal board in such a case. My opinion is recorded officially. I stated that when in the first place the examiner in the field reported to headquarters a percentage of disability, and it was not agreed to by headquarters, and if as a result of correspondence the examiner in the field changed his view, then I was of opinion that the divergence having existed originally there was still a right of appeal, even if the examiner in the field and headquarters ultimately reached the same view. I have in mind one particular case that .was appealed. The decision of the Board of Pension Commissioners was reversed, but the board refused to carry out the decision of the board of appeal, on the ground that they had ultimately come to an agreement with the examiner in the field. I suppose it is a question for the Department of Justice to decide.


William Alves Boys: Should there not be further
legislation?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Perhaps it is a case for legislation.


Robert King Anderson: The minister is a physician; does he think that a board in Ottawa
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is in a better position to decide upon the disability of a man say three hundred miles away than the physician who is in charge of the case?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I do not.


Robert King Anderson: How is it, then, that they can ask the physician to change his opinion? How can they presume to tell what the disability of a pensioner is when they have not seen the case at all? I have had the commissioners practically tell me that they could decide a pensioner's disability just as well as or better than the man who was in the field.


Henri Sévérin Béland: In some cases the documents on file would be quite sufficient for a proper discussion of the case; it would not be necessary for the patient himself to be observed at headquarters. Medical cases of the same type are frequently characterized by noticeable differences. A typical illness is typhoid, but among a thousand cases of typhoid no two may be exactly the same. In some cases it is possible to come to a decision on the basis of the file only; in other cases it is not.


Robert King Anderson: These files really come from the men in the field or are based upon information received from them. I am speaking particularly of the determination of the amount of disability.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I was coming to that. The hon. member for Simcoe (Mr. Boys) argued that when appeal was taken by a man to the appeal board he should be afforded an opportunity to appear before the board in person. Well, in the majority of cases that would be physically impossible; the man might be unable to travel, or he might not wish to come. But there is a provision under which an exservice man who appeals may be represented or may submit his own case before the board of appeal. If his contention is upheld by the board, the department pays the whole cost; if it is not, he meets the cost himself. This is the first experiment that we have made in providing for appeals from the decision of headquarters. It has been operating only a few months; some decisions have been reversed, and others have been sustained. I have not heard any complaint so far in respect of any case appealed, whether the contention made was maintained or whether it was rejected.


William Alves Boys: Would the minister care to venture an opinion with respect to my re-

marks concerning the disallowance of pensions without giving the persons affected an opportunity of being heard?


Henri Sévérin Béland: There is certainly a good deal in what my hon. friend says. If a man is discharged from hospital with say a 50 per cent pension and if treatment is continued so that after six months the pensioner is, by his own admission as well as according to the report of the physician, entirely cured, I imagine that in such a case the Pension Board would be justified in discontinuing the pension without calling upon the person concerned to state his objections. On general grounds, however, it is perhaps only fair, especially in the case of widows of men who fell on the other side or who died here as a consequence of their war service, that no pension should be discontinued without the pensioner being given an opportunity of stating bis or her case, at least by correspondence.
I think the Board of Pension Commissioners would be ready to adopt that procedure. I must point out once more that when hon. members take the attitude that I have some authority in regard to the Board of Pension Commissioners, they are, if I may be permitted to use the word, mistaken. I have no more power than hon. members opposite have; no more influence upon the board than a lawyer would have upon the judges of the Supreme Court if he were arguing a case before them. The Board of Pension Commissioners is an independent tribunal whose decisions are final. Their powers are defined in an act which was unanimously adopted by this parliament. When I suggest to the ' board that a certain widow is entitled to a pension, they may judge the case on its merits and decide differently without my having any recourse whatever. My powers in this regard are limited to the mere reference of particular cases to them and the request that they give to the application their kind attention, applying to it a generous interpretation of the Pension Act. I am, as it were, the attorney representing before the Pension Board a soldier who has presented his case to me; the board, after examining the file and the correspondence and my recommendation, render a decision, and that is the end of it.


John Arthur Clark: Who is responsible for seeing that the Pension Board carry out the Pension Act-for instance, the recommendations made by the Committee on Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment at the last session and adopted by the House?


Henri Sévérin Béland: The Pension Board is its own interpreter. At the head of the com-

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mission is an eminent lawyer; I say that without any hesitation. Col. Thompson is an eminent lawyer. I am not responsible for his appointment, but I am free to admit that he is a lawyer of repute. The other two commissioners are medical men. The pension commissioners interpret the Pension Act as they see fit, and they render their decision according to their interpretation, and I have no power, I repeat, to alter their decisions.


William Alves Boys: In making the observations I did, it was not for the purpose of criticising the minister at all. I have great confidence in him. I know he is sympathetic so far as the returned men are concerned, and is doing all he can. He has said that he is an attorney, as it were, for the returned man. In that capacity I appeal to him, and I appeal to him also as the responsible minister. If these grievances, and I believe they are grievances, exist and if legislation is necessary to remedy them, the proper person to appeal to is the minister in his capacity as such. I do urge upon him to look into what I have mentioned for it is a very serious state of affairs to have any woman deprived of her pension without being given a chance to be heard at all, even if there were no question of honour involved, and when that is added the situation is accentuated. If the minister wants me to give the cases I can do so. One is pending at the present time. May I also say while I am on my feet that I have confidence in the board. Any matters that I have had to bring to their attention have always received consideration, and in some cases favourable consideration. It is not a criticism of the board or of the minister, but a criticism of the system. I do not think anybody should be deprived of the right without being given the opportunity of being heard.


Mr. SHAW:: I should like to hear what is the minister's view with regard to the suggestion made by the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill) to put this matter of appeal in the hands perhaps of district court judges, who could weigh the evidence impartially, hear the parties at the very place where the returned man happens to be located, gather the evidence and perhaps give a decision on appeal which might in some cases, at least, be much more satisfactory.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have very grave doubts as to the advisability of referring such cases to a district or superior court judge as the case may be. The appreciation of the strength of an application for pension is mainly based on medical evidence. In ninety-nine cases out of a hundred it is a medical case, and to decide upon such a case in any open court,
bearing in mind that the gentleman who sits there as the presiding 'officer is mainly concerned with law, would not, I believe, give as much satisfaction as might on the surface be expected. I repeat, it is almost exclusively a. medical matter, which has to be decided upon by medical experts.
A man dies. He apparently dies of a chest trouble. He has had whilst on service some manifestation of sickness in the chest; he may have had a cough for a few days. He is tieated in a hospital for a chest condition, and he dies. The autopsy is made, and it is found that this man suffers from a disease of the spleen which in medical opinion was the principal and only cause of death. Though this man was treated in hospital with pay and allowance, the Board of Pension Commissioners will say that he did not die of the illness for which he was treated because medical opinion says that the principal cause of his death war a spleen affection which could not have been contracted on service. That is only one instance. There are thousands of different features in medical and surgical cases. The cases vary as much as human faces. Though two men may look alike they are not exactly similar, and it is more difficult in medical science to find twin cases than it is to find two people as much alike as twins in the ordinary course. It is mainly a question for the appreciation of medical men. There are difficulties, there are grievances. Some are founded, some are not. It is exceedingly delicate to pronounce upon them one way or the other. My personal view is that when a doubt exists, however remote it may be, the applicant should be given the benefit of the doubt. That is my view expressed in hundreds of memoranda sent to the Board of Pension Commissioners. But, of course, they are in the last analysis the men to decide, and I am powerless to alter their decision.


Mr. MARTELL:: After hearing the very able explanation of the minister, I think it is too bad that he himself is not constituted the appellate court because this commission standing there are very apt to view matters purely from the standpoint of the information which they find on their files, without going deeply into the matter. I am very glad that the minister has made the statement that where there is the least semblance of a doubt the applicant should be given the benefit of the doubt. I believe it is not good policy to put into the hands of the Board of Pension Commissioners here at Ottawa the right to have the final say as to whether or not a person shall receive a pension. I believe, if we are going to have responsible government in this

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country, that the minister should be the appellate court and I think we all will agree that the present minister would make a very excellent appellate court because his heart would sometimes govern, and I believe in most cases it would not be found to be wrong. It is a grievous fact that it has not been found expedient this year to continue the very excellent Committee on Civil Re-establishment that we had last year, chairmanned by a man who worked day and night to get all the facts and endeavoured in every way possible to see that right was meted out to people who deserved the right. I would urge upon the minister to make that committee a permanent committee of this House so far as it is possible to be made permanent. I would also urge upon hifn to take steps to have an appellate court created for giving a final decision in these pension cases, and if you cannot go to a court of judges, let us go to the minister himself, because if you go to him you will find that he will be prepared to deal out right where right is due. It is all very well to say that a board of medical practitioners have decided so and so. Lawyers disagree, and it is often said that we are a crooked bunch. Doctors disagree and they bury their mistakes. It is not fair that any medical man should decide upon the absolute merits or demerits of a matter from the purely medical standpoint; considerations of law and equity, and what is right and just, should also be held in mind. All of us probably have in our constituencies cases where men are receiving pensions who do not deserve them, and other cases where people who deserve pensions but have not been granted them. It is absolutely necessary, in my opinion, that there should be an appellate court in cases where there is good ground for an appeal. I believe also an opportunity should be afforded of presenting such matters before a committee of the House of Commons. The minister could do an act of justice to the country, and to the returned men in particular, by continuing the committee of last year so ably presided over by my hon. friend from St. Lawrence and St, George (Mr. Marler).


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I do not find myself m agreement with the last speaker in his suggestion to make the minister a final court of appeal. My position in that regard is taken largely out of consideration for the minister who, I think, would not want any such job as that wished on him. If that were done I think the minister might well pray to be delivered from his friends. I am of opinion that there should be a court of appeal, in certain cases, such as was provided for last
TMr. Martell.]
year. However, I would like to ask the minister what action he means to take with regard to the case he spoke of that was appealed -in which he said officially there was a case to appeal, whereas the Pension Board decided there was none. I do not think the authority of the Pension Board should extend to Jhis matter. I do not think they should have the final say as to whether there should be an appeal or not. I think that is over-stepping the authority which was vested in the pension board; I do not think it was ever intended to vest any such power in them. I am becoming more convinced all the time that the charges levelled at the pension board last year were justified in view of the statement of the minister that they are doing things in an autocratic manner. I think we all respect the fairness and judgment of the minister, and feel convinced that he will not come to a decision lightly in a matter of this kind.


Henri Sévérin Béland: In reply to my hon. friend's question I may say that I have given instructions to secure an opinion from the Department of Justice and it will be their duty to decide whether the regulations should be so amended as to permit an appeal where a divergence has existed between headquarters and the examiner in the field in the first place notwithstanding the fact that, as a result of correspondence, headquarters and the local examiner have come to an agreement.


John Arthur Clark: The hon. member for Carleton, N.B., (Mr. Caldwell) seemed to interpret remarks of the minister as declaring that the pension commissioners had given decisions of an autocratic character. I should like to know from the minister himself if that is a correct interpretation of his remarks.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I made that remark in reference to the fact that the board had overridden an appeal although the minister had declared that there should be one. That was what my remarks had reference to and I still stand by that.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I shall not use the term
"autocratic" although perhaps somebody has merited the appellation.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Hear, hear.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I do not want to use the term in this case, but the facts were as I have related. I had a conversation with the chairman of the board on the subject in question and as a result he holds to his view and I hold to mine. As far as the interpretation and administration of the Pension Act is concerned he is supreme; I am only the minister.

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John Arthur Clark: Is he autocratic?


Richard Smeaton White: Will the minister say if he is in a position to introduce legislation which will deal fairly with the returned soldier at the present time?


Mr. POWER:: In reference to the complaint that the Board of Pension Commissioners are autocratic I suggest that we do not proceed to enact other legislation which would perhaps render them more so. Perhaps the remedy would be found in removing the members of the board, and I am sure I will take great pleasure in making recommendations to the Civil Service Commission.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I have no doubt that the hon. member would be very glad to see reductions carried out and that he would be prepared to do an awful lot of recommending. The trouble is that the recommendations would all come from one camp. I do not interpret the remarks of the minister as some of the hon. members have done. I remember hearing him say this afternoon that so far as he was able to learn charges against the Pension Board were largely without foundation. I think the minister made that statement ; if I am mistaken he will be good enough to correct me.


Henri Sévérin Béland: As far as the charges of
conspiracy were concerned. What I said was that there had been different charges levelled against the pension board. There were charges of premeditated conspiracy, for example, and at one of the sittings of the commission of inquiry held in Ottawa it was ad' mitted on all sides that such an accusation could not stand. I think the remark was made by the chairman himself that this charge might be discarded and all parties agreed to that. As to other charges that the board have interpreted too rigidly some clauses of the Pension Act no report has been made to me.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I do not profess to have the intimate knowledge of the charges that the minister has. Apparently, however, all charges of bad or ill faith have disappeared. The matter now to be determined is whether the sections of the act have been properly interpreted. It would seem to me to be perfectly easy for my hon. friend to deal with the question of an appeal. My suggestion to the minister would be to simply make a change in the rules and regulations and provide that an appeal should be subject to his consent and not subject to the consent of the board whose decision is to be appealed from,


Lewis Herbert Martell: That is good argument.


Mr. MARLER:: During the discussion this afternoon reference has been made on several occasions to the Board of Pension Commissioners. It will be remembered that last year I was chairman of the special committee which investigated this case, and when I presented the report of the committee to the House last June I intended to say something with respect to the Board of Pension Commissioners. But the matter was placed under the purview of the royal commission, and therefore I said nothing at that time. But I did think then, and still think, that it is only fair to say that I was in constant touch with the Board of Pension Commissioners for a period extending over very many weeks during last session, and I found them most assiduous in their duties in every respect and most sympathetic to the returned men. I did not think there was any kind of conspiracy, nor do I think now that there was any conspiracy, but I will explain that just in a moment. This question of conspiracy came up before the royal commission. I have not any idea what the report of the royal commission will be. I have not been in touch with them, except on one occasion only, and that occasion was to submit to that self-same commission a memorandum which my hon. friend from Calgary West (Mr. Shaw) and I agreed on in this House. The royal commission wanted to see exactly what we agreed upon, so that in the second part of the inquiry it might be dealt with. That is all I know about the matter. I do not know what the royal commission will say, or what their judgment will be, but I know that on the argument which took place before the royal commission on the first scope of the inquiry regarding the conspiracy of the Board of Pension Commissioners, those gentlemen making the charges against the commission more or less withdrew them.
Now let us be fair to the pension commissioners. They have an exceedingly difficult task to perform, and at times it is impossible for them to perform that task to please everybody. I know there are dozens of cases of hardship under the act. I have brought cases before the Board of Pension Commissioners, and have begged and prayed them to let them go through, and they have told me on more than one occasion that they would like, if they could, to grant a certain pension, but, Mr. Chairman, the Board of Pension Commissioners is regulated by the act. The act is there; it was passed by this very House and they cannot go outside of it. Now parts of that act may possibly be unfair. Parts of that act may be cold-
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hearted, but if it is a question of the Board of Pension Commissioners introducing sentimentality, they cannot do it. We in parliament framed the act, and if it is not right, let us amend it in such a way as to give the Board of Pension Commissioners and the government sufficient control to give pensions where they may be due, or to bring in sentimentality or compassionate feeling where compassionate feeling or sentimentality should come into consideration. But I do not think we should direct the blame to the Board of Pension Commisisoners, because for my part -and I say it quite frankly and openly- I have found them most considerate and assiduous in their duties, and I do not believe the charge of conspiracy laid against them was well founded at all. That is my opinion, and I think I should give it to the House at the present time.


John Arthur Clark: I would like to ask whether it is the policy of the government to treat patients in military hospitals, or whether the policy of nursing hospitals will be continued and the soldiers placed in hospitals run by private or municipal authorities.


Henri Sévérin Béland: A large number of our patients will ultimately resolve themselves into incurable home patients, and gradually, as the hospitals are being closed, and the process of concentration is proceeded with, we will have to come to this last consideration, how best to care for that residue of men who are disabled for life, chronic cases which cannot be cured. It will be for the minister in charge, if it is not myself, to decide what the proper policy should be in this regard. Evidently the government of Canada is not going to continue to operate fourteen, or even ten. different hospitals in Canada for the active treat-* ment of cases. The process is under way with the object of concentrating, in two, three or four different institutions, all the patients who are now distributed over fourteen institutions. Then it will be for the minister in charge and the government to decide what should best be done in the interest of those soldiers and of the country at large. My hon. friend may have some views and other members may have their own views. It is difficult to say beforehand, but evidently we will have to concentrate, and ultimately use some homes for the soldiers who are now almost chronic cases, and also for a large number of soldiers who, growing in age, and being in distressed circumstances, will require the attention of the public or the government of the country.

It would be a mistake to think that, when we are through dealing with the cases that are now actually under treatment, we are through with the problem. I regret to say that the number of applications for treatment is as large this year as last. Men advanced in age, make their appearance with some disability under the name of rheumatism or something else, which, in the opinion of the soldiers themselves, is due to their war service. So that I say that it will be for the department or the government as time goes on to determine what is best to be done.


John Arthur Clark: Am I correct in drawing the conclusion that it is the intention, even though concentration takes place, to keep soldiers together in one institution, and that they will be housed together and not distributed among the municipal institutions?


Henri Sévérin Béland: That is the first step of course. What will be done after a few years, when only a few institutions remain, will be decided at the time.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
At six o'clock the House resumed and then took recess.
After Recess
The House resumed at eight o'clock.


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 25, respecting a certain patent of Arthur R. Wilfley.-Mr. Chevrier.
Bill No. 26, to amend the act incorporating "La Societe des Artisans Canadiens Francais" (English and French versions).-Mr. Seguin.
Bill No. 27, respecting a patent of Hans M. Olson and Esther Maud Butcher.-Sir Henry Drayton.
[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment-vocational expense. $50,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: What activity does this cover?


Henri Sévérin Béland: This expenditure has been decreasing very rapidly during the last four years. The peak load was carried in 1920, when we had 26,000 returned men undergoing vocational training. This number has been reduced gradually until it now amounts to only 224. The only men now entitled to vocational training are those who are dis-

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charged from hospital after treatment. The committee is doubtless aware that after the 1st February, 1920, no returned man was admitted for vocational training unless he had enlisted as a minor, or unless he had been undergoing treatment in a hospital. The fact that only men who are discharged from hospital or who had enlisted as minors can be admitted for vocational training, accounts for the small number now being vocationally trained.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Salaries, $4,425,000.
Henri Sévérin Béland: Hon. members will notice a very substantial reduction in this item amounting to $1,000,000 for the next fiscal year. There has also been a very large saving under this head in the present fiscal year. The item "salaries" covers salaries to administrative, clerical, medical, dental, technical and training staffs, nurses, orderlies, ward maids, workshop instructors, social service workers, and dining, kitchen, laundry, farm and garden employees; in a word, all those not dealt with under the short list of Civil Government, numbering 7 or 8, for whom we voted an item 'this afternoon. The total staff of the department on the 31st December, 1921, was 4,886; on December 31st, 1922, 3,823. I claim, very modestly, of course, credit for this reduction of 1,063.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Pay and Allowances-
Treatment	$3,000,000
Training	 200,000
Henri Sévérin Béland: This item, Mr. Chairman, is for pay and allowances to inpatients in our hospitals and also to outpatients. No doubt hon. members are familiar with the rates paid, so I will not take up the time of the committee in giving the details. The amounts, of course, vary according to whether the patient is a single man or has dependents. There is a substantial reduction also in this item, amounting in the case of treatment to $500,000, and in the case of training to $200,000.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I suppose there is no change in the scale of pay and allowances?


Henri Sévérin Béland: There is no change in the scale.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The reduction is owing to the smaller number of men under treatment?


Henri Sévérin Béland: That is so.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: How much was used of the $3,900,000 voted last year?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I can give my hon. friend the figures for nine months only. For treatment we spent $2,189,700, and for training pay and allowances $263,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Vocational loans, $15,000.
Henri Sévérin Béland: It will be apparent'to hon. members that there is also relatively a very large reduction here of $60,000. This is accounted for by the fact that we have fewer vocational students. The regulations provide for a loan of $500 for the acquisition of tools and equipment by the vocationally trained man to carry on his occupation. If I can trust my memory, we have loaned $630,000 to such men. A very large proportion of these loans has been repaid, the amount now outstanding being in round figures $260,000.


Mr. BROWN:: What number of men have taken training?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Two hundred and twenty-four.


Mr. ARTHURS:: How many applications have been made for such loans, and how many have been granted?


Henri Sévérin Béland: In 1922, 94 applications were received and 80 granted. For the two years, 1920 and 1921, 2,369 applications were received, and 1,801 granted.


James Arthurs: Can the hon. minister give the committee the reasons for the disapproval of applications?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am sorry that I cannot supply the information. I presume that if the official at the head of this branch-who, of course, must use his discretion-came to the conclusion that a vocationally trained man was not very much in earnest, his application would not be approved. In this regard I have never received any complaint.


John Livingstone Brown: I am not sure that the minister understood my question. I did not mean the number who took vocational training last year, but the total number who have been trained under this system.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Fifty-one thousand have begun vocational training, of whom 41,000 have completed their course.


John Livingstone Brown: That is what I wanted.


Murray MacLaren: What was the amount loaned last year?
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Henri Sévérin Béland: For the nine months ending December 31-that is all I have the figures for-the amount loaned was $18,403.


William Alves Boys: Of the amount outstanding, which the minister stated to be something over $200,000, what amount is overdue?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am informed that while it is outstanding, it is not overdue. It is being regularly paid.


William Alves Boys: None of it is overdue?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Nothing, I am informed.


William Alves Boys: If that is so, it is a very creditable showing; I would like to be sure of it. What rate of interest is charged?


Henri Sévérin Béland: No interest is charged.


Charles Gavan Power: May I ask whether every exsoldier who has undergone vocational training is entitled to this loan?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes, he has the right to make application for it, subject to the approval of the official in charge of the branch. A few loans have not been approved, for the reasons I attempted to give a moment ago.


Charles Gavan Power: Is there any other reason than that stated by the minister, namely, that the deputy minister was not satisfied that the ex-students were really serious?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Not that I know of.


Charles Gavan Power: Are there any other reasons which would be allowed by the regulations? Is it entirely in the discretion of the deputy minister?


Henri Sévérin Béland: If the vocationally trained man shows a disposition to engage seriously and earnestly in the occupation for which he was trained, the loan is granted. If the responsible official has reason to believe that the man is not in earnest, that he is not really desirous of engaging in the occupation, the loan is not granted.


Charles Gavan Power: I am asking this question because I know of the case of a man who was refused vocational training because he was not drawing a pension. Must one be drawing a pension in order to take advantage of this loan?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I did not quite catch my hon. friend's question. I thought he was asking whether every ex-service man who had undergone vocational training was entitled to a loan.


Charles Gavan Power: I was asking that.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I gathered from my hon. friend's last remark that he was asking whether every ex-service man was entitled to vocational training.


Charles Gavan Power: Not at all.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Only those who are disabled and who fall within the class of pensioners are entitled to vocational training.


Charles Gavan Power: The minister has misunderstood me. Take the case of a man who has pursued a vocational training course and on making application for a loan is told that he cannot get it because he is not now on pension. There are a number of men who have followed vocational courses but who are not now pensioners.


Henri Sévérin Béland: There is a certain time following the vocational training course within which application for loan must be made. If it is not made within that time, it cannot be considered.


Charles Gavan Power: I quite understand that. I wish to know, the policy of the department in this matter. Does the fact that a man is not drawing a pension prevent him from taking advantage of this loan?


Henri Sévérin Béland: The regulation is very clear; a man who is not drawing a pension cannot be vocationally trained.


Charles Gavan Power: He could very well have been vocationally trained and have had his pension cut off.


William Alves Boys: The minister will pardon my insistence, but the information he gives me regarding this $200,000 outstanding is so remarkable and so delightful that I would like to be sure of it. It is very creditable indeed if all these men who have secured loans to the extent of the amount mentioned, of which there is $200,000 outstanding, have paid up so well that no part of the amount is overdue. If that is the case I really think the country should know it; I do not believe there is any other class in the community-business men, professional men or otherwise-who could make such a showing. I should be glad if the minister would confirm the information, which he gave with some little hesitation.
Mi'. BELAND: I can only give my hon. friend the information which is supplied to me here. The total amount loaned was $675,856; cash repayments, $207,000; cancelled loans, $73,000; discontinued loans, $161,000.


William Alves Boys: I think the minister misapprehends my question. I merely wanted

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to be sure that of the 8200,000 outstanding, none was overdue.


Henri Sévérin Béland: That is my information.


James Arthurs: The minister has stated that a large number of applications for loans were refused on the ground that the applicants could not satisfy the powers that be that -their intentions were honest, to put it plainly, or that they intended to go ahead with the trades for which they had been trained. The minister states also, however, that every one of these loans has been promptly repaid and that there are no amounts overdue. In that event it would appear that complaints which have come to my attention that some of these men have been harshly treated and have not been granted loans where they were necessary, . are well founded, and that in this matter the department has hewn very close to the line. They have not made a loan without being sure of repayment.


Henri Sévérin Béland: My hon. friend may have
been in receipt of complaints in this regard. I myself have received a good many complaints from returned men in respect to different matters but I do not remember receiving any on this score. If the hon. gentleman has in mind any cases of that kind, I would like to have them submitted to me for consideration.


James Arthurs: The minister must admit that part of the correspondence has not come to his hand. It is not reasonable to suppose that two or three thousand applications for loans would be refused without some complaints being made.


Henri Sévérin Béland: There could not have been that number during the year, because we had only 224 men under training.


Murray MacLaren: The minister says that of the amount loaned, 173,000 was cancelled. Does that mean that some loans were waived?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes.


Murray MacLaren: For special reasons, I presume?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes.


Mr. PRITCHARD:: I would like to ask the minister a question in reference to a returned man whose case I have in mind. This is a man who is getting a pension. He has taken some vocational training but would like to farm. In fact, he has bought a farm. What would the department do in the way of giving that man a loan? He wanted me to see what I could do for him, and I think this is an opportune time for me to bring the matter up.


Henri Sévérin Béland: So far as this department is concerned, we are granting loans only to those who have been vocationally trained. My hon. friend is referring, I think, to a soldier who desires to settle on the land.


John Pritchard: He has taken vocational training, but would rather go on the farm. He has already bought a farm on his own initiative.


Henri Sévérin Béland: -The soldiers who desire to settle on the land, if they are not trained for farming, must undergo training.


John Pritchard: But this man has been trained. He was on the farm before he went to the front.


Henri Sévérin Béland: If he wants a loan he must apply to the Soldier Settlement Board, which operates under the Minister of the Interior. The conditions under which such a loan is granted are well known. If this man has already undergone vocational training in our department, the only' loan to which he would be entitled would be $500 so far as we are concerned. That would be only for tools and implements to enable him to carry on the vocation for which he was trained.


John Pritchard: On what conditions would the money be loaned?


Henri Sévérin Béland: It is repayable in instalments in five years.


Murray MacLaren: I was asking about cancellation. Under what circumstances was $73,000 cancelled?


Henri Sévérin Béland: The men were unable to carry out the contract conditions, and the tools were returned.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Interest on War Service Gratuity and Administration Funds, $22,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the reason for the increase?


Henri Sévérin Béland: The balances left with the department are constantly increasing. Many of the men who are undergoing treatment do not desire to avail themselves of their pay, and they leave it with the department; their war service gratuity is also turned over to us from the Militia Department. We pay five per cent on that. It is simply a matter of accounting.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Unemployment relief, $500,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: What amount was
paid during last year under this head?



Su pply-R e-establisli me nt


Henri Sévérin Béland: There was quite a large amount spent last year in unemployment relief. First of all, there was an amount of $650,000 which was voted for 1922-23. This amount has been over-expended at the present time, and as was the ease last year a further amount will be asked in the Supplementary Estimates for the present fiscal year to cover that over-expenditure. Last year, that is the year that came to an end on the 31st of March, 1922, an amount of over $2,000,000 was spent in unemployment relief. I am glad to be able to convey the information that we are not spending nearly so much as last year in unemployment relief. Hon. members of the committee may like to know for what class of soldier this relief is provided. It is only used for the relief of distressed ex-service men who are suffering from a disability, and are therefore pensioners, but whose pension is insufficient to support them and their families.


Richard Smeaton White: How many individuals benefited last year under that distribution?


Henri Sévérin Béland: To the 31st December, 1922, the total number of men assisted was 22,941.


William Alves Boys: Is the reduction in this item due to fewer applications or to a smaller allowance per man? *


Henri Sévérin Béland: Nothing is paid out in cash* The officials of the department in every unit satisfy themselves through their social service visitors that a family is in need of assistance, and the assistance may be provided in the way of rent, fuel, food or clothing. The maximum amount that is being paid out this year is $67 per family per month.


Mr. IRVINE:: if this relief is granted only to men suffering from a disability, how does it happen that you are paying less this year than last? Have they died?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Because there are fewer out of employment. That is the only reason I can see.


William Irvine: Do I understand that it is not for men who are totally disabled, but only for the partially disabled and who are working all the time?


Henri Sévérin Béland: For the partially disabled, also totally disabled, some of them.


James Arthurs: The minister has said that only pensioners are eligible under this scheme. What about those who have commuted their pension and are not now pensioners?


Henri Sévérin Béland: They are also attended to.


William Alves Boys: Does the relief come as a result of application or as a result of intervention by local committees? If as a result of application, have there been fewer applications in the last nine months?


Henri Sévérin Béland: It is granted as a result of application. There have been fewer applications than last year by a large number.


Mr. CHURCH:: I am sorry to see the minister cutting down the vote for this purpose because if any reduction is to be made it certainly should not be in relief for unemployment. There certainly does exist a large amount of unemployment, especially among the returned soldiers. A large number of these men are not one hundred per cent efficient and after a year or two when they return to regular employment their health goes back on them, and under the existing legislation they cannot qualify for aid because the doctor cannot pass them. Therefore they do not receive anything. In the city from which I come the unemployment situation is just about as bad as it was in 1919, and I do not know what the soldiers who are out of work would do if it were not for the municipal authorities. I am sorry that the minister is curtailing this vote because on the occasion of his visit to Toronto he was very active and did a lot of good work there. Undoubtedly the unemployment situation is very acute in Toronto, as well as in some of the other larger centres of population, because many men flock there from all parts of Canada in the hope of getting work. It has been suggested that it is not necessary at this stage to continue to give out doles but in Toronto we have it on the authority of Dr. Hastings, medical health officer, that the situation demands such aid. Conditions are so bad in fact that the municipal authorities in striking the tax rate have to make provision for relief for the unemployed. The state of unemployment is aggravated by the great amount of sickness which prevails, particularly among the families of returned soldiers.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Operating expenses and working capital, $600,000.
Henri Sévérin Béland: This item also shows a decrease of $100,000 for the next fiscal year. Last year we appropriated $700,000 for this purpose. These operating expenses are made up as follows: Telephones, telegrams, postage and car fare; transportation and travelling expenses of staff; stationery and office supplies; insurance and storage; light, heat, and power and water rates; maintenance and repairs to furniture and equipment; automobile

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expenses; freight expenses; advertising and publicity, and other general expenses. The expense incurred in connection with the royal commission on Pensions and Re-establishment will also be paid out of this vote.
The working capital is for financing the treatment and medical examination of Imperial and other foreign former soldiers, also the operation of the Imperial Pension office. The total amount which was expended on 31st December, 1922, was $486,187.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the estimate for the expenses of the royal commission?


Henri Sévérin Béland: The sum of $35,000 has been placed in the estimates for that purpose.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is there any other appropriation elsewhere for that purpose?


Henri Sévérin Béland: No.


Arthur Edward Ross: How much was received for the treatment of these patients from other countries last year?


Henri Sévérin Béland: This vote is, to a large extent, carrying itself, because the money that is being advanced for the examination and treatment of former Imperial soldiers is being collected from the Imperial government; but the committee will realize, of course, that we have first to make the disbursement and then collect the money from the Imperial authorities. In answer to my hon. friend from Kingston I may say that on the 31st December, 1922, we had received $404,000 for financing the treatment and medical examination of Imperial and other former foreign soldiers. These accounts are not settled until six or seven months after the expenses have been incurred.


Arthur Edward Ross: I was under the impression that the amount received was something like $600,000. I would ask what becomes of this money?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am referring only to the
nine months which ended on 31st December, 1922, and, as I have already said, the receipts on that account were $404,000.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: Have we a similar arrangement with other countries, for example, with the United States, and under what head shall we find the moneys expended for that purpose?


Henri Sévérin Béland: We also have an arrangement with the United States for the same purpose. They undertake to care for our soldiers, giving them treatment and so on, and their expenditure is refunded by this department. The arrangement is a reciprocal one.


Henry Lumley Drayton: While we are on that subject, can the minister tell us how many of our returned men are now in the United States? The minister has no idea as to the number?


Henri Sévérin Béland: There are quite a number but I am unable to give my hon. friend the
exact figures offhand.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I wonder if the minister has looked at all into the question of the large number of ex-service men who have been leaving this country and going to the United States? Has that been drawn to his attention?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I did not know that a very large number of soldiers had left this country, and I would be sorry to learn that such was the case. However, I have no information on the subject.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend could not tell us how many pension cheques go to Canadians who are now living in the States?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I will be able to give the information when the item for pensions is under consideration. That is an entirely different item from the one we are now considering.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The hon. member for Kingston put a question as to what became of the moneys collected. I assume they are paid in the ordinary way to the account of the Receiver General and do not go to the minister's department at all?


Henri Sévérin Béland: The money goes to the account of the Receiver General.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Employers' Liability Compensation, 175,000.
Henri Sévérin Béland: We have spent very little
in this connection. The total expenditure for the ten months ended January 31, 1923, was $14,816. A large amount is being asked this year although not so large as last year. We think that the employers have not been made aware of the provisions that we made to offset the liability for which the employment of the disabled would make them responsible. The regulations provide that any employer of a disabled man whose disability is over 20 per cent may be refunded any money that he would have to pay in rates of assessment or as compensation on account of employing a disabled man. I think that is a very wise provision. It will help to a very large extent tnc disabled men who are otherwise precluded from readily finding employment, on account cf the employers being very diffident in regard
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to using their service^ for fear of accidents. We are providing this amount, but we have nh idea whatever what amount may be spent It may be $25,000, $50,000, $75,000 or perhaps $100,000. The first consideration we gave to this item led us to ask $175,000, but finding that we spent so little last year, I surmised that perhaps $75,000 would meet the requirements.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I do not think
the vote started at $175,000. I do not think the policy the hon. member is alluding to is his own creation at all. I have a recollection that we started that some time ago. My recollection is that we had a vote of $100,000 in the year 1921 for the same purpose. I do not think we started at $175,000, nor did the idea start with the minister.


Henri Sévérin Béland: No, I did not say that.
I said that last year I asked for $125,000, of which only $14,000 was expended. I was not referring at all to the former administration. This vote was placed in the estimates last year pursuant to an order in council that had been passed covering any liabilities that an employer might suffer by reason of employing a disabled man in his shop.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The vote was
put in just the same as any other vote in connection with service already being performed. I forget the exact year in which the policy was inaugurated. I entirely agree with the minister that it is a very good thing. He is generally right when he follows the system adopted by the late government. I should like to know what is being done now with a view to letting the manufacturers know just exactly what the situation is. It is something on which we want to spend money rather than save it, because it means we are getting employment for the returned soldier through this means.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I think that it is now pretty generally known amongst the employers, but the department is taking steps to make this provision known to every employer in the country.


William Irvine: What provision is being made to check up the returned men who are reported by the employers as coming under this clause?


Henri Sévérin Béland: We have one unit in every province, and the officials in the department in every province are in a position to know exactly what the situation is in connection with all manufacturers who make a claim for a refund from the department on account of these disability cases where the men meet
[Mr. Beland.l
with accidents, or on account of special assessment rates to which the manufacturer may be subject. That is as easy a matter to supervise, I should say, as the unemployment relief, for instance, in every large city. I hope this answers my hon. friend's inquiries.


Thomas Langton Church: This is a very good form of insurance, but there seems to be some doubt as to whether it is well known in the country. It was only in force a very short time last. year. Would the minister tell the committee how an employee would make an application of this kind and to whom he would apply? Of course, there are some employers of labour who are patriotic enough to employ these men tlifemselves, but there are some cases where they are not willing to take a man with a disability of 20 per cent. I should like the minister to tell us how they can make these applications. I may say I never heard of any complaint. This is a very reliable form of insurance. Many men suffer more than 20 per cent disability. If a man has not 100 per cent efficiency, he has to take a lower rank in the service, and I would like to ascertain whether this desirable form of insurance is generally known.


Henri Sévérin Béland: There is no need of a special application on the part of the employer. Nobody is excused for ignorance of the law. In this case it is not a statute but an order in council. This order in council has been made known pretty wel 1/ all over the country by this time. Any employer who employs a disabled man with a disability of over 20 per cent, and on that account becomes liable for compensation and also for a special assessment rate, has a right to come to the department for a refund. He need not ma^e any application. _


Thomas Langton Church: Will this sum be sufficient to cover the whole of Canada for one year?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes, because however reluctant the employers may be to take in their service disabled soldiers, the experience shows that men with disability of 30, 35 or 40 per cent will not meet with accidents much oftener than the other employees. It may be, as my hon. friend suggests, that the amount is too small. I have no possible means of gauging what amount would be required in this instance. It may be $100,000 or it may be only $30,000. It is purely speculative, because it is based on the accidents with which the disabled employees may meet. *

Supply-R e-establish men t


Henry Lumley Drayton: The government stands behind the order in council anyway?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: And the government are now providing themselves with this amount of money?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I think it goes further than my hon. friend pointed out. Not only are we responsible in the case of accidents, but we also pay the, increased premiums to the insurance companies.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes, certainly.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Sheltered employment, after care, transportation of the blind, burial expenses of the destitute, etc., $375,000.
Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Why the increase of 3135,000?


Thomas Langton Church: Could the minister let the
committee know if the recommendations of the special parliamentary committee as regards the blind have been carried out? I understood from the minister last session that he was to make a further inquiry regarding the compensation to be paid to these men. Six hundred dollars a year is not very much for a man who has lost his sight, especially, in the larger cities, when he has to pay an attendant to conduct him to any work that he has to do. Many of these blind men, now that the war is over, are receiving very little work and still less sympathy. I think the sum recommended by the organization representing the blind was two or three hundred dollars, but they did not get the money. There is another appropriation

I do not think it is this item-of $10,000 which the House passed unanimously last year for the Canadian Institute for the Blind, which do nearly all the work in Canada for the blind soldiers; but they did not get the money; it was held up in the Finance department. This may not come under this item; but something should be done, especially in the larger cities throughout the country, where the blind have to have guides to lead them around the streets. That was the only thing for which the blind asked last year, and which they did not get. I should like to see them get the increase, I think it is about three or four dollars a week.


Henri Sévérin Béland: All the recommendations
of the parliamentary committee of last year have been carried out. We have adopted a regulation to provide for an escort in the case
of a totally blind man, and also to defray his transportation expenses if, of course, he does not make a play of travelling all the time. I know my hon. friend has taken a special interest in that particular class of returned soldiers, and the country at large, I am sure, shares his views in that regard. The blind are receiving special treatment at the hands of this parliament, and the recommendations that have been made particularly in their behalf have been carried out. Perhaps I might go a little further and give the committee just a few figures in that connection. Hon gentlemen may be interested to know the number of ex-service men afflicted by total or partial blindness. The total number on record is 2,285, of whom 1,258 are afflicted with blindness on account of loss of one or both eyes, and 1,027 suffer from defective vision, both eyes being' retained. Of this number, 158 are in receipt of a 100 per cent pension. It will be interesting, undoubtedly, for the committee to know that 171 of those having defective eyesight have been fully trained. I will bear in mind what my hon. friend (Mr. Church) says on behalf of the blind. I am sure there is no class of war-disabled men that appeals more strongly to hon. ijjembers and to myself.


Mr. GUTHRIE:: There is and has been for some years in the Estimates another appropriation of $10,000 to which my hon. friend from Toronto (Mr. Church) has referred. It is number 321, and I see it is put in as a grant to the Canadian National Institute for the Blind under agreement with the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment, authorized by order in council of April 2, 1919. It comes by agreement under the minister's department. My hon. friend from Toronto intimated that for some reason or another this $10,000 had not been paid last year. Perhaps the minister can give us some information in regard to that.


Henri Sévérin Béland: The Auditor General ruled that this amount under the head of Miscellaneous should be paid over to the department for the discharge of their obligations to the National Institute for the Blind. The amount was paid over to our department, and in turn was paid over to the Institute for the Blind. I may say, however, that some of the representatives of that worthy institute came in a delegation to interview the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) and myself. They claim that they are entitled to $10,000 as a grant, besides the $10,000 which they should receive under the agreement with the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment.
Supply-Re-establishment

The representations that they have made to the Minister of Finance and myself have all but convinced us that their contention is probably right. The matter is now under consideration, and it is likely that in the Supplementary Estimates $10,000 further will be provided as the institute, claims.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Can my hon. friend not say that he is already persuaded and tell us that the money will be given? There is no question about the urgency of this matter or the character of the work that is being done by the institute. I am quite sure my hon. friend agrees. Perhaps, he could make this appropriation just large enough to look after the matter.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I do not want to promise, but I make it a policy of always giving more than I promise.


John Arthur Clark: How much of this vote is to go to sheltered employment, how much to after care, how much to transportation of the blind and how much to burial expenses of destitutes?


Henri Sévérin Béland: For sheltered employment, operation of vetcraft shops and payment of Red Cross societies and similar enterprises, the amount is $320,000; for special tubercular clinics, $15,000; for transportation of the blind, $5,000; and for burial expenses of destitute former soldiers, $10,000.


John Arthur Clark: Does that include the appropriation for the last post fund?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes, burial expenses of destitute former soldiers and payment to last post fund.


John Arthur Clark: How much was paid to shops operated by'the Red Cross Society?


Henri Sévérin Béland: The sheltered employment, through the Red Cross, is just getting under way. We have concluded some arrangements with the Red Cross societies in Winnipeg, Vancouver and Victoria. So far as St. John and Halifax are concerned, it is only a week ago that a deputation from those cities interviewed me on this very subject, and we have made arrangements with them to open vet-craft shops. In the case of Toronto, for reasons that are unknown to me, the department has been unable to come to a definite agreement with the provincial Red Cross society. The department has therefore taken steps to open a vetcraft shop in that city to replace the shop destroyed last winter. We have secured commodious premises for. the purpose on Dundas street, and during my stay in Toronto it was my privilege to inspect them.
fMr. Boland.]
Sheltered employment is one feature of our work in which the minister as well as the officials of the department are keenly interested, for we realize that in this way we can render real service to men who on account of some disability are precluded from entering the open labour market. We have spent little so far in that direction, and the amount which is now being asked is large comparatively, but as far as I am concerned I hope we will spend it all-of course, in a manner to secure the best results. I wish to see established in every large city in Canada a vetcraft shop where problem cases can be employed during a certain number of hours each day at liberal rates of remuneration, for this is not entirely a philanthropic enterprise; it is somewhat of an economic undertaking.
The agreement which we have made with the Red Cross society will, I think, commend itself to every hon. member. It provides that the government shall pay 85 per cent of all capital expenditure and the provincial division of the Red Cross 15 per cent, the equity in the equipment and buildings to remain in both parties in proportion to the percentage of expenditure contributed by each.
These vetcraft shops will be under the direction of a committee of three members appointed by the Red Cross Society. This committee will have control of the type of occupation, the rate of remuneration, the puri hare of supplies, the disposal of the product, the framing of disciplinary measures, and the admission of men to the shops. The Department of Soldier's Civil Re-establishment may appoint two members of its staff to act in an advisory capacity, but the final control in this instance rentains with the Red Cross Society. A board of admission, composed of three doctors, two appointed by the department and one by the society, is to be established in connection with each workshop. This board is to decide what cases shall be admitted to the shop, the nature of the work assigned to each man, the hours of employment, and the termination of the employment on medical grounds. It will be readily recognized that this is absolutely indispensable in dealing with men suffering from disability, or who may be threatened with a recurrence of disability, and who being paid by the hour might be tempted to work longer than would be good for their health.
V'hile we regard this as an economic undertaking, we do not expect that it will be selfsupporting. It would be very satisfactoiy if it were, but I think it is too much to expect this. At all events the department, in view of the representations made to it by the Red

Svpply-Re-establishment
Cross society, has agreed to make good any *deficit to the extent of 75 per cent, it being always understood that no more than $25 per man per month will be contributed by the department.
As I said a short time ago, such an agreement has been arrived at with the provincial Red Cross society in some of the provinces. In others, it has been impossible so far to induce the provincial branch to accept the proposition. We are not at' all deterred by this failure, and are determined to provide employment for this class of disabled men. We have succeeded in establishing a vetcraft shop in Toronto, and it may be that in the course of a few months we will pass it over to the provincial Red Cross branch.
It seemed to me desirable to furnish this information to the committee, because it relates to a somewhat new feature of the work of the department-work which I think is becoming more necessary as the years go by.


John Arthur Clark: Will the minister state what portion of this fund has been earmarked for particular vetcraft shops operated by the Red Cross society?


Henri Sévérin Béland: A sum of $320,000.


John Arthur Clark: I know. But taking, for
instance, the vetcraft shops established in Toronto and Vancouver, how much will be paid to.each of those shops?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Not until operations have
been carried on for a number of months shall I be in a position to give that information. Of course, on how favourably we can dispose of the product of those shops, will depend the economic outcome of the work. The amount is in a bulk sum because we have concluded agreements only with three branches )f the provincial Red Cross, and in all the other instances, with the exception of St. John and Halifax, we are carrying on the work ourselves on a more or less limited scale. But the intention is to extend these vetcraft shops and so provide more and more employment for this class of disabled soldiers, in the expectation that if the shops are not self-supporting, at least there will be relatively only a small deficit to be met by the department.


William Irvine: Do these vetcraft shops
explain the increase of $135,000?


Henri Sévérin Béland: That is the explanation.
The increase is for the purpose of providing sheltered employment to the extremely disabled.


John Arthur Clark: Are any other steps being taken by the government to secure employment for the very large number of disabled soldiers who are at present untrained and unemployed?


Henri Sévérin Béland: We have in every unit a section known as the unemployment and relief section. When a disabled returned man applies for relief because he lacks employment it is the duty of the officials of that unit to seek employment for him. Last year we provided employment for 18,000 of these applicants throughout Canada.


John Arthur Clark: I am aware of that. But the metho^ is unsatisfactory, because some of these men are not able to compete in the open labour market; even though they secure employment they cannot retain it for any considerable length of time. I had hoped that under this item the government would aim to secure some permanent employment or training for the whole body of returned soldiers who are disabled and unable to compete in the open labour market.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I assure my hon. friend that we are exerting every effort to secure employment for those who are disabled. In 1922 we had 35,000 applications for employment. We placed 18,000 of these; 13,000 applications were withdrawn, and there is a pending placement balance of 4,504. We are endeavouring to secure employment for these in our shop. We do not want to venture upon this vetcraft employment on too large a scale, but if it proves satisfactory we will extend it so that in a year or so we shall be in a position to procure employment for disabled men who cannot find it elsewhere.


John Arthur Clark: How many disabled men are there who are unemployed?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have no exact date.


Thomas Langton Church: The least the country could do for the returned soldier who dies destitute is to provide him with a decent burial. The officers of the department should be instructed to see to it that in a case of that kind the necessary arrangements should be made-whether the funeral is to be a military one, whether there is to be a band or not, and so on. The other day a soldier who had been under treatment in a hospital in Toronto was transferred to London and died there. The body was kept in a morgue or undertakers, I believe, or in a box of some kind, for four weeks; nobody seemed to do anything about providing a decent burial. Friends in Toronto took the matter up with the municipal officials, but nothing could be done. The military authorities were appealed to, but they said he did not come under the last post fund,
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or in some way did not come under the regulations of the department provided . in such cases, so that nothing could be done. It was proposed to make a house to house canvass to get the money with which to bury him. The city authorities finally said they would look after the matter, and after a good deal of correspondence the burial took place. I hope that the D. S. C. R. officers throughout Canada will receive instructions so that there will be no doubt about how to proceed in matters of this kind, and so that a few paltry dollars will not stand in the way of a destitute soldier being given a decent burial. There should be no conflict between the military authorities, the municipal authorities and the D. S. C. R. in the matter of burying a man who served over four years in France, who had been out of work, and who had a wife and four very small children.


Murray MacLaren: Does the liability compensation apply to men who may be engaged in work in the sheltered employments?


Henri Sévérin Béland: No.


Murray MacLaren: Will there not be some difficulties arising in that connection? I take it that accidents can occur in connection with the sheltered employments under the Red Cross just as they can in other workshops. Will provision not be made for compensation in the case of accident, as is done under the compensation provisions of the different provinces?


Henri Sévérin Béland: My hon. friend's suggestion may be well thought out, but the vetcraft shops are being operated by the Red Cross society under an agreement. If claims such as my hon. friend refers to should be presented to the department, I suppose they would be open for consideration.


James Arthurs: I have no doubt that the minister has given great care to the preparation of this item and that he has been interested, as many members of the House have been, in the vetcraft shops. But he has not given us any information as to the approximate loss involved in the operation of similar shops which have been in existence for a number of years, and I would like to have that information. I would also ask whether the minister has made any special provision since taking office for the care of neurological patients, which constitute, after all, our most serious problem so far as the returned men are concerned.


Henri Sévérin Béland: The vetcrafts to which I have referred have been in operation only a few weeks.
I Mr. Church.]


James Arthurs: There were some operated two or three years ago, one notably in Hamilton.


Henri Sévérin Béland: None of these shops was self-supporting.


James Arthurs: To what extent were they not?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have not that information at hand. This afternoon I gave some information with regard to the cases in our mental institutions. The number has very largely increased, whereas the number of cases in other hospitals for general treatment has decreased. These neurological cases are being treated mainly in two hospitals, one at Ste. Anne and the other at Westminster, Ontario.


James Arthurs: Unfortunately I was not able to be here this afternoon; if the information is on Hansard, I will not ask the minister to give it a second time. I should be quite willing to accept the figures given with regard to these hospitals; I have no doubt that the neurological cases are being well looked after by the department. There is a class of cases that has come before the committee quite frequently in previous years, and that is the man who is not necessarily ill in the hospital but has a recurrent disability of this nature. What has been done to take care of that class? They are the most difficult cases for the minister and the country.


Henri Sévérin Béland: The regulations in this
connection are very elastic. We are far, I think, from being severe when it comes to granting treatment, especially in nervous and mental cases. It will occur to every hon. gentleman how difficult it is some years after a man is discharged to attribute a mental disability to war service, but in every instance we give the man the benefit of the doubt, and that accounts for the number of mental case* in our mental institutions.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Medical advisory and appeal boards, 150,000.
Thomas Langton Church: Is the minister contemplating any change of policy with regard to the Christie street hospital, Toronto? This hospital is serving a most useful purpose. I hope there will be no change in policy, and that the government will see its way clear to keeping it open for another year at least.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I can assure my hon.
friend that we have no intention, at the piesent time at least, of discontinuing the Christie street hospital; on the contrary, it is for the time being the policy of the department not only to keep it open but even to concca-

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trate there patients from other institutions. This has been done because there were a large number of vacant beds at the Christie street hospital.


Arthur Edward Ross: I have had a case referred to me which I would like to look into and bring before the minister. It refers to the Medical Advisory Board, and I would ask the minister if he would be good enough to allow this item to stand.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Of course I do not want to refuse any reasonble request of my hon. friend, but so far as the Medical Advisory Board is concerned, we discussed it lengthily this afternoon. A number of hon. members have shared in the discussion and a good deal of light has been thrown upon the subject. As a matter of fact, the subject has been almost exhausted. I may say that no money has bten spent so far under this item. It is a revote. The Medical Advisory Board has been sitting for a little time, but no bill of expenditure has yet been furnished.


Arthur Edward Ross: If I shall have an opportunity of bringing up the case on the Supplementary Estimates, it will be quite sr tisfactory.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes, certainly.


William Alves Boys: The hon. member for Fort William, the former Minister of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment (Mr. Manion) is not here, and will probably want to speak. The minister has passed about $12,000,000 since 3.30 this afternoon, and it seems to me it would not be amiss if he consented to the request of the hon. member for Kingston and let this matter stand.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have no intention of refusing the request, but perhaps I might suggest this: There is an item of $32,000,000 for pensions to come up, and I can assure my hon. friend that he will have ample opportunity of discussing any feature of the work of this department on that item.


Mr. HUMPHREYS:: What steps have been taken to advise the returned men that they have access to this appeal board?


Henri Sévérin Béland: No special steps have been
taken so far because no publicity expenditure has been incurred. The intention was to await the report of the royal commission on Pensions and Re-establishment so that all the information could be supplied in pamphlet form. I may say to my hon. friend that whenever a case comes before the department where it has been found necessary to refuse an application, the man is notified that if he so desires he may appeal, and the proper
machinery and the procedure is set out for him. I know that in numberless instances in the last three or four months I have written back to applicants setting out what the procedure would be if they desired to appeal.


Levi William Humphrey: Under section 4 of the report of the special committee appointed last session on soldiers' re-establishment, there was a recommendation in regard to publicity of this board of appeal. Just what steps have been taken in regard to following out this recommendation of this special parliamentary committee?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have just explained to
my hon. friend that we were awaiting the report of the royal commission before all that information was conveyed to the veterans. The report is not in yet, but as soon as it comes in we will undertake to supply in pamphlet form, I suppose to every pensioner, . and every returned man, if it is possible, the necessary information. If the report is going to be much delayed, we shall take some means of diffusing the information through some of the veterans' newspapers.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
The administration of the Act respecting Food and Drugs, Honey and Maple products, and Opium and Narcotic Drugs, $90,800.
Henry Herbert Stevens: Will the minister give us a little information on this vote. I have a few questions I want to ask having reference to the administration of the Opium and Narcotic Drug Act. Is it the intention of the minister to bring down an amendment correcting an error that occurred in an amendment to the act last year which makes it exceedingly difficult to secure convictions under this act? I think the minister will recall some communications I had with the department, I think with the minister himself, during the year regarding it. For the moment I think the section in question was in number 21. I submitted to him the opinion of one of the chiefs of police and it was pointed out, I know, in the reply that there had been an oversight, or that something had been left out, in draughting the amendment in question.


Henri Sévérin Béland: At the present time I do not recollect what the particular point was that my hon. friend brought to my attention but I may inform him that it is my intention to submit to the House, a little later in the session, a consolidation of the different opium and narcotic acts that have been passed by
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this parliament. Therefore in that consolidation the little oversight to which he refers "'ill undoubtedly be remedied.


Richard Smeaton White: Last year prpvision was made in the Opium and Narcotic Drug Act whereby the deportation should be earned out, under certain circumstances, of orientals found guilty of infringing the law. Can the minister tell us how many deportations of orientals have been effected?
Mr. BE I, AND: In complying with ray hon. friend's request for information on one particular feature of the operation of the Opium and Narcotic Drug Act, I might give to the committee some details as to the number of prosecutions which have been carried out by the department. During the ten months of the present fiscal year, ended :51st January, 1923, the total number of prosecutions was as follows:
British Columbia, not including Vancouver; five illicit dealers other than Chinamen, 145 chinamen. Vancouver: eight other than Chinamen; 14 Chinamen.
Alberta: two doctors; 3 dealers other than Chinamen; 26 Chinamen.
Saskatchewan: one dealer other than Chinamen; 10 Chinamen.
Manitoba: two druggists; 16 dealers other than Chinamen; 6 Chinamen.
Ontario, not including Toronto: one veterinary surgeon; 9 dealers other than Chinamen; 52 Chinamen. Toronto: one druggist; 9 dealers other than Chinamen; 37 Chinamen.
Quebec, not including Montreal: one druggist: 21 dealers other than Chinamen; 4 Chinamen. Montreal: ten.doctors; 7 druggists; 55 dealers other than Chinamen ; 124 Chinamen.
New Brunswick: one doctor; 2 dealers, no Chinamen. Nova Scotia: thirteen Chinamen; no others.
Prince Edward Island: none.
This gives a total of 13 doctors, 11 druggists, 1 veterinary surgeon, 129 dealers other than Chinamen, 431 Chinamen, or a grand total of 585 convictions.


Richard Smeaton White: How many of the Chinamen were deported?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am informed that about 30 Chinamen have been deported, and that 200 are awaiting deportation.
I have also a mass of information in connection with the seizure of opium lamps and pipes, decks of opium and other drugs like cocaine, morphine, heroin, and so on/ I do not suppose it is of any interest to the committee to have all those details.
The importation and exportation of narcotic drugs are under license. During the ten months referred to we have issued 161 import licenses, 38 export licenses, 108 wholesale druggist licenses, and 5o retail druggist licenses to manufacturers.

I also have here a table the details of which, sad as it is, should be given to the committee. The table gives a survey of the Dominion and an estimate of the number of addicts in Canada at the present time. It is claimed that there are in British Columbia 2,250 addicts; in Alberta, 350; in Saskatchewan, 250; in Manitoba, 500; in Ontario, 1,800; in Quebec, 3,800; in New Brunswick, 250; in Nova Scotia, 300; and in Prince Edward Island, none. These figures give a total of 9,500.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Would the minister kindly state upon what this estimate is based so that we may have some idea of the authority for it?


Henri Sévérin Béland: It is based on reports which are constantly coming into the department, mainly from the officials of the Royal Mounted Police. We also secure information from the various religious bodies, from the charitable organizations, from the municipal councils, and different people who take great interest in the operation of this act.


Henry Herbert Stevens: May I also ask the minister if any further steps have been taken to bring about closer co-operation, under the International Conference, towards the suppression of the export of narcotic drugs from other countries? I am not speaking of exportation from Canada, because we do not produce the drugs here, but from Germany, France, where a good deal is manufactured, India, and other countries where it largely originates.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes, we are in contact with the League of Nations in this connection. Not very long ago the deputy minister of the department was in Washington in conference with the authorities over there. There is a very heavy traffic, it is assumed, of narcotics, between the United States and Canada. At times it has been supposed that New York was the distributing centre in North America, but it is not an easy task to discover where the distributing centre is. The opinion is now more or less prevalent that Montreal would be the distributing centre. Narcotic drugs are imported clandestinely into Canada by all possible human and inhuman devices. The regular traffic of course, is under control and closely checked. I could tell the House the amount of cocaine and the amount of morphine which has been imported into Canada and also exported, but that amount has been considerably reduced in the last five or six years. The clandestine importation has been on the increase, and it is exceedingly difficult to control. All I can say is that I am not

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thoroughly conversant with all the devices that are being resorted to, in order to unearth the illicit traffickers and dealers. The matter is principally in the hands of the Mounted Police in every large city, especially in Montreal and Vancouver. We have secured a large number of convictions and collected -a certain amount in fines. We have secured penalties to the extent of over $200,000, of which we have been able to collect only $15,000. We are deporting Chinamen as fast as we can. We are making very strenuous efforts to check this very undesirable traffic.


Archibald M. Carmichael: In the case of drug addicts, many of whom are young girls innocently led into the habit, could the minister tell me what efforts are put forth to effect a cure of these victims? Is any systematic effort put forth by the department?


Henri Sévérin Béland: My hon. friend will realize that this matter is principally in the hands of the provincial authorities through their social charitable institutions, and in some cases mental institutions. I must confess that the federal Department of Health has not put forth very great effort in this direction because we realize that it does not come principally under our jurisdiction.


Archibald M. Carmichael: I notice further on in the estimates that there is a considerable grant given to the provinces in connection with venereal diseases, the Dominion authorities working in conjunction with the provinces. Would it not be a good step for the Dominion authorities to work in conjunction with the provinces in this matter?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes, there is such an item for the prevention of venereal diseases, but the subject we are dealing with at the present time is entirely different. I do not say that it would not be proper policy to enter into an agreement with the provinces in this regard, but social work is in the hands of municipalities and provinces.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I am very pleased to hear the statement made by the minister, and I desire to say that my experience with his officials and the department having this matter in charge would indicate that every effort is being made to curb this frightful traffic. There is one thought I would like to bring forward just now and it is this: My observation and study of this problem leads me to the conclusion that the energy of those administering the law, both provinciallv and from a federal standpoint, should be concentrated more to destroying the central distributing ring to which he has referred. It is of very little effect to secure a conviction against
an ordinary distributor, or, as we term him, drug peddler, and it is rather strange that after some years of effort I cannot recall any very prominent trafficker being convicted, or even prosecuted. I think the Department of Justice controls our Mounted Police, and if the minister would give instructions to his department, and the ministers would give instructions to the other departments, that the federal officers should be requested to co-operate with the provincial or local officers in a definite manner, with the idea of discovering the central distributing ring, good results might be obtained. There is no question that in Vancouver and Montreal very strong groups exist. It is rumoured that - sometimes fairly prominent citizens may be involved. It matters not to me how prominent a citizen may be, if he is in any way involved in this nefarious traffic, he should not only be exposed,, but the utmost limit of the law, including the lash, should be administered. There have been somewhat strained relations between the different police authorities, such as the Mounted Police, the local police and the provincial police. I know in my province that is the case. Not necessarily strained, but, shall I say, there is a lack in cordial cooperation. This matter is too serious to allow any petty red tape to interfere with the most vigorous administration. I should like to bring that to the attention of the minister. Apropos of that, I notice in the paper to-day the report of a speech delivered by the Attorney General of British Columbia before the Anti-Narcotic Drug League just recently formed, I believe, on the Pacific coast, in which he states that he had been in communication with the minister, and some definite plans had been arrived at to deal with this traffic. Perhaps the minister could inform the committee just what steps had been taken between himself and the Attorney General of British Columbia in this regard.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Since I have been at the bead of the department, our efforts have never been abated for one moment in the effort to secure a closer co-operation between the municipal, provincial and our own police, in the work of suppressing illicit traffic in drugs. Whether we have achieved anything or not I might hesitate to say. I may say frankly that there is a good deal of rivalry between the provincial, the municipal and the Royal Northwest Mounted Police. Each of those worthy bodies claim that they have special immunity of their own, which they will not allow any others to infringe; but if it were possible, as my hon. friend has suggested, to effect that co-operation, our work
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would be more efficient and greatly increased. We have in some respects, though, made some progress in this connection. As regards the co-operation of the national league for the suppression of the traffic, I have also heard a rumour that there was such a league in process of formation, but it is in the infant stage, I am sure. I have no information, whatever, on that score. If it is a worthy association, composed of men of responsible character and standard, we shall be willing, of course, to avail ourselves of its service and co-operation.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I think the minister did not quite catch my last question, which was in regard' to the public statement of the attorney general before this league in Vancouver, when he intimated that something of a definite character had been brought about between himself and the minister by recent correspondence. I was wondering if the minister could give the committee any information on that point.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Nothing that I am aware of.


Alan Webster Neill: The minister stated, a few minutes ago, that it was his intention to consolidate the Drug Act this year. In that jvent, I would suggest that he pay some attention to the wording of those sections of the act dealing with the deportation of those convicted, because, if 1 am not very much mistaken, it was found last year in British Columbia that a number of Chinamen convicted could not be deported on account of the terms under which they had been convicted. It appears that if they were sent to jail, they could be deported; but if they were sentenced to a heavy fine, and in default of payment, jailed, they could not be deported. I think if the minister will look into the matter, he will find that a trivial amendment would remedy the situation. I know a number of those convicted got off on habeas corpus for some reason of that kind.
I would also ask the minister to take into cognizance the necessity for increasing the severity of the penalty. I noticed in the press the other day that in Great Britain they have taken power to give men no less than ten years for trafficking in these drugs.


Mr. SPENCER:: I understand from the minister that fines to the extent of $200,000 have been imposed, while only $15,000 have been collected. Where a fine is not collected, is the person fined sent to prison instead?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes, the term of imprisonment is, of course, extended proportionately,

and it is so stated in the statute. One section will provide for a penalty consisting of so much in money and a term of so many months in prison. In case of failure to pay the penalty in cash, the man is retained longer in jail.


Samuel William Jacobs: I understand this traffic has been growing from year to year, and that it never was so serious as it is at the present moment. How is it then that the appropriation asked for is $20,765 less this year than last year?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am informed that though this traffic has been on the increase during the last few years, lately, during the last eight or ten months, to our great satisfaction, some decrease has been shown. There is, indeed, a decrease in the amount of the item; but it was arranged that a part of the amount, which was formerly paid out by the department as expenses to the Royal Mounted Police, would be paid from now on by the Justice department, under which the police operate.


Samuel William Jacobs: So that the money is expended from some other quarter.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Certainly.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Proprietary or patent medicines, $5,000.
Samuel William Jacobs: What is this for?


Henri Sévérin Béland: This is to control the sale of proprietary and patent medicines, which can be sold only after a license has been obtained from the department. A number of samples are being collected and analysed to find out whether the patent medicine which is offered for sale corresponds exactly with the formula submitted for approval and approved. There is, in this connection, for the issuing of licenses an advisory board which exists under statute and which costs about $2,000 a year..


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Pollution of boundary waters, $2,500.
Henry Lumley Drayton: What waters has the minister cleaned up since the last vote?


Henri Sévérin Béland: We have spent no money out of the $5,000 voted last year.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Are the waters still standing dirty?


Henri Sévérin Béland: No. This is to co-operate with the International Joint Commission in the enforcement of any rules and regulations that tiles'- may make in regard to public health.

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Thomas Wakem Caldwell: We have a serious situation on the border line between New Brunswick and the state of Maine where the St. John river is on the boundary on the upper waters of the river. On the Canadian side of the river and on the lower reaches of the river where it runs through New Brunswick, we are strict with our mill owners as regards putting sawdust and refuse into the water, because the salmon are killed thereby. On the upper reaches of the river, where one side of the river is bounded by the state of Maine, we have no control of the United States sawmills. I should like to know if our representative on the International Joint Commission could not take this matter up and have some agreement made with the United States Authorities that they will compel the sawmill owners in the state of Maine to bum their sawdust or dispose of it in some other way than by putting it into the river. This does not affect the fish in the United States part of the river, because just below where the St. John river becomes the international boundary are the Grand Falls on the river, and no salmon can go up over those falls. Therefore, there are no salmon there. But this sawdust flows down and pollutes the river where it runs through New Brunswick entirely, and is very disastrous to salmon. This has been a very important question with us for years. We have taken the matter up, but so far we have not been able to get any relief. I brought the matter to the attention of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Lapointe), and he said that something would be done. The situation is a delicate one, but something should be done in the matter by the United States authorities. I would like our representative on the International Joint Commission to take this matter up, and I hope the minister will bring it to his attention.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I will take the necessary
steps to have this matter brought to the attention of my colleague the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Lapointe). I think it is a proper subject for the consideration of the International Joint Commission.


Mr. MICHAUD:: I am aware of what my hon. friend from Victoria and Carleton (Mr. Caldwell) has referred to, and I know that the Department of Marine and Fisheries is taking very good care to fine any of our lumbermen who may be caught throwing sawdust and other mill rubbish into the St. John river where that is the international bound-arv. Complaint has been made to the authorities on many occasions that while fines are
imposed on our Canadian lumbermen their rivals in the state of Maine are left free to pollute the river and so destroy the fish. I hope that the Department of Marine and Fisheries and the Department of Health will look into the matter as soon as possible and take the necessary steps to make our American friends respect the law.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Mr. Chairman, the International Joint Commission is very largely a court, and the hon. minister can easily have this matter looked after by laying a complaint before the commission. I have no doubt he will do bo.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Certainly.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine hospitals, including grants to institutions assisting sailors, $110,000.
Henri Sévérin Béland: Mr. Chairman, my long list of decreases is now exhausted, and I have to present an item showing an increase of $15,000. This is accounted for by the natural increase in shipping after the _ war and the additional amount required for defraying the salaries of the physicians, the cost of board and the treatment of distressed mariners. As a matter of fact I think that the $95,000 voted last year will be barely sufficient to cover our expenses up to the 1st of April next, and we may have to look after a trifling deficiency in the supplementaries. All the marine hospitals have been closed with the exception of one at Sydney and another at Lunenburg. Provision is made at contract rates for the treatment of sick mariners at local hospitals, or, where there are none, at boarding houses. The dues collected from ships are more than sufficient to defray the expenses.


Henry Herbert Stevens: There has been some complaint from shipping concerns that the dues are too high. Would the minister therefore state what is the comparison between the dues collected and the amount expended, so that we may be informed on the point? Would the minister also kindly give me figures showing the distribution of these cases in the hospitals at the port of Vancouver, which is one of our leading ports?


Henri Sévérin Béland: The expenditure for the ten months ending 31st of January amounted to $94,327, while $130,000 was collected in dues. As for the other part of my hon. friend's inquiry, the following hospitals in British Columbia receive a grant from the department in return for taking care of our patients: Esquimalt, Sailors' Club and Institute; Vancouver, the Vancouver Sailors'

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Home; Victoria, the Victoria Seamen's Institute.	.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Does not the department under this vote pay the hospitals that care for these sailors?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes, we pay for the treatment of sailors at the hospitals. Let me supplement the information. In British Columbia the following hospitals receive sailors and are paid by the department: Anyox, General Hospital; Chemainus, General Hospital; Ladysmith, General Hospital; Nanaimo, Nanaimo Hospital; New Westminster, Royal Columbian Hospital and St. Mary's Hospital; Ocean Falls, Ocean Falls Hospital; Prince Rupert, General Hospital; Union Bay, Cumberland Hospital; Vancouver, Vancouver General Hospital and St. Paul's Hospital; Victoria, St. Joseph's Hospital and City Isolation Hospital.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Could my hon. friend give the number of cases and the amount of money expended in Vancouver? I am not particular about the others.


Henri Sévérin Béland: In Vancouver: St. Paul's Hospital, board and treatment, 3,017 days at S3, ambulance, $125-total, $9,176; Vancouver General Hospital, board and care 424 days at $3, treatments, 56 at $3, ambulance $10-total ,f1,450. Victoria: Isolation Hospital, board and treatment 41 days at $5, nursing $119-total $324; St. Joseph's Hospital, board and treatment 1,165 days at $3, ambulance $11.50 -total $3,506.50; Victoria General Hospital, board and treatment, 792 days at $3, ambulance $7.50-total $2,383.50.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Quarantine-salaries and contingencies of organized districts; public health in other districts: Tracadie and D'Arey Island Lazarettos, and Public Works Health Act, 1250,000.
Murray MacLaren: How many lepers are there in the Tracadie lazaretto? Have any new cases arisen during the past year? What is the name of the medical officer, his residence and his salary.


Henri Sévérin Béland: At the Tracadie lazaretto there are six male lepers and five females. The physician in charge there is Dr. Langis. Only one case developed during the past year; it was brought from Montreal.


Henry Herbert Stevens: A Chinaman?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: What comes under the Public Works Health Act in this item?
i Mr. BHand.l


Henri Sévérin Béland: We have an inspector in the W est who sees that proper sanitary conditions are maintained in connection with the public works carried on by the government. Dr. Clendennan, with headquarters at Edmonton, is responsible for the western district. The eastern district is looked after from Ottawa.


Murray MacLaren: May I ask whether the medical officer at the Tracadie lazaretto has had the opportunity of visiting any clinics or
any lazarettos in other parts of the continent? I understand that advances have been made in the treatment of leprosy in the last few years.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I know that a certain oil- chaulmoogra, I think it is called-has been very much praised as a treatment for leprosy. It has been applied to the six cases at the British Columbia lazaretto with encouraging results. I am not aware that Dr. Langis has visited any institution on this continent in connection with the treatment of leprosy. I do not know the gentleman. He has been in charge for many years, and I would presume that he has taken good care to follow the progress of science in this connection.


Murray MacLaren: The matter would involve considerable time and expense. I think the remuneration of the medical officer at the Tracadie lazaretto is very small.


Henri Sévérin Béland: -1 think his salary is about $2,800. I can give my hon. friend the exact figure if he wants it.


Murray MacLaren: I suggest to the minister that he consider the advisability of affording opportunity to the officer under these circumstances to visit some of the other lazarettos on this continent.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Department of Health-immigration medical inspection, $50,000.
Sir   HENRI@: DRAYTON: In view of the immigration that is coming, or rather not coming, to this country, does the minister not think that he could save money here? Is there any use in maintaining a staff that is doing nothing?


Samuel William Jacobs: The object of these institutions is to keep them out.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Then let us get rid of the staff entirely.


Henri Sévérin Béland: The number of immigrants inspected during the year ended 31st March, 1922, was 63,743, at the different ports in the following numbers: Quebec, 41,000; St John, 8,900; Halifax, 7,400; Montreal, 797;

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Sydney, 452; Vancouver, 1,600; Victoria, 1,500; New York, 1,600. The number of immigrants who entered Canada by ocean ports during the nine months period from April 1 to December 31, 1922, and were medically inspected, was as follows: Quebec, 31,717; Montreal, 171; Halifax, 2,164; St. John, 3,086; North Sydney, 1,311; Sydney, 8; Vancouver, 631; Victoria, 454; U. S. ports-Boston and New York, 1,723; total, 41,265. The number of non-immigrants admitted at these ports and medically inspected was 13,405.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The minister
refers to immigrants and non-immigrants. What was the number of actual immigrants? Never mind the non-immigrants.


Henri Sévérin Béland: The total number of immigrants examined was 41,265.


Henry Lumley Drayton: How does this
vote of $50,000 compare with the vote when we were having! from 150,000 to 160,000 immigrants coming in?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have hot the figures for
past years. Last year the amount was the same.


Mr. STEWART (Leeds):: Is there any
medical inspection of the immigrant before he leaves the country from which he comes to Canada, or does the inspection take place only upon his arrival here.


Samuel William Jacobs: He is inspected twice.


Henri Sévérin Béland: There is a very superficial examination on the other side. We have only one medical official there.


Mr. RYCKMAN:: What is his name?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Dr. Jeffs. He has been in charge for a number of years. This question was discussed in the House some years ago. I remember myself when sitting where my hon. friend sits, and feeling quite comfortable I can assure him, asking the then Minister of Immigration if he did not think it advisable to examine immigrants on the other side before they boarded the ship, and he explained to me, very plausibly, that he did not think it would be advisable to do so, that we should make our medical examination on this side. He very wisely pointed out that it was questionable whether our inspection could be carried on in countries like Belgium, for instance, or Holland. There might not be any difficulty as far as Great Britain is concerned, but many of our immigrants for years past have come through the ports of Rotterdam and Antwerp and I do not think we could subject a man who boards the ship at these ports to a medical examination over there for the very obvious reason we have no power at all to enforce any regulations either at Rotterdam or Antwerp.


Samuel William Jacobs: Is it not a fact that every immigrant has to be examined by the ship's physician before he comes aboard, and that if he is not in good health w'hen he arrives in this country, the shipping company must take him back at their own expense?


Henri Sévérin Béland: It is a fact.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Where is this officer who makes the medical examination located?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Mainly in Liverpool, but he often goes to Antwerp and Rotterdam, which are the main continental ports through which our immigrants come.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: How many immigrants
were turned back who failed to pass the medical examination last year?


Henri Sévérin Béland: During the last ten months 433 immigrants were rejected.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Medical research standardizing and testing laboratory, $15,000.
Murray MacLaren: Where is this laboratory?


Henri Sévérin Béland: In the Department of Health on Elgin street.


Thomas Langton Church: I think it would be a good thing if the government would lay down a policy such as has been done in the United States and Great Britain; and in Australia, of giving financial aid to those Canadians who through their skill, industry and professional ability help medical science-a policy whereby young doctors and students of research who make an important discovery such as Dr. F. G. Banting and Mr. C. H. Best made in discovering the insulin treatment for diabetes, should receive some recognition. I have been a member of the Toronto General Hospital Board for seventeen years, and I know that up to a short time ago nothing could be done for a man suffering from diabetes. He simply wasted away and died, but now owing to Dr. Banting's discovery most of these cases will be eventually saved.
I think something should be provided in the Supplementary Estimates or some substantial financial aid be given to men like Dr. Banting and Mr. Best, and Professor McLennan who made important helium discoveries, and to other distinguished Canadian scientists. That is the British and the American research policy, to substantially and voluntarily assist
Supply-Health

those who give of their best for the relief of humanity and devote themselves to scientific discovery and the development of the resources of Canada.
The German government long before the war made the universities a department of the state, fully realizing the importance of scientific university research, and they commandeered the labour of the best students at their universities during the summer months for scientific purposes. Many of our students in the universities are self-made men, especially in medicine, where the fees are so high. In fact, I know two important professors in an American university with whom I went to college, who had to sell newspapers in their younger student days and do other small work to make up their fees.


Samuel William Jacobs: Was it the Toronto Telegram?


Thomas Langton Church: I would therefore urge upon the minister that he consider providing something in the Supplementary Estimates of a substantial nature for these two young men, in the best interests of research in Canada, and as an incentive to scientific men.
Dr. Banting, after all, was a soldier, and he has not made a cent out of this discovery which will bring relief to a great many people in this country. A professor of Johns Hopkins University says that 750,000 on this continent are suffering frotn diabetes, so you can see what this discovery will mean.
I would also suggest that the government commandeer the summer services of the brighter students at the different medical colleges for laboratory work, so that they will not have to work as cooks and waiters on boats or do manual labour in mines, or sell newspapers, and that their services be used for the development of medical science, as in Germany. I think such a policy would commend itself to the wisdom and judgment of the people of this country and greatly help scientific research. We should be a progressive people. Recently I addressed the Canadian Club at Detroit, at which Mayor Cousens and others were present, and I may say that fifty of the most prominent doctors in Detroit were Canadians. When you think of the numbers of our brightest professional men who are leaving Canada for the United States and England, I think you will agree that it is time the government of Canada did something to encourage scientific discovery and work of this nature, and announce its policy on the subject. Let us take a leaf out of the book of Germany in making the universities a department of the state.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Just a word in commendation of what my hon. friend has said regarding Dr. Banting. We all hope that the experiments which have been for a number of years carried on by Dr. Banting will prove in the end to be a fruitful and a most useful scientific discovery. However desirous I might be to say that it is an accomplished fact, I must, however, state that it is still somewhat in the experimental stage.
So far as the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment is concerned, we have afforded to Dr. Banting the opportunity of applying, with the consent of the patients, his method of treatment to some of our soldiers suffering from diabetes in Christie Street hospital. It is not for me to say definitely that it is a discovery, but certainly something has been achieved which we hope in the end will redound to Canada's credit.
As far as putting an amount in the Supplementary Estimates is concerned as a recompense for Dr. Banting's labours, however favourable I would be to the idea, I would first of all like my hon. friend to bring together the hon. member for West York (Sir Henry Drayton) the hon. member for Brandon (Mr. Forke) and the hon. Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding), and if the three of them will consent, I shall have no objection whatever, but I am afraid my hon. friend will probably find some resistance in some quarters. If we did this for Dr. Banting, we would have to do it for a good many students and scholars who have achieved valuable results in scientific affairs. However, we are all proud of the results which have so far been achieved by Dr. Banting in the treatment of diabetes, and hope that it may prove a world discovery of the greatest benefit to humanity.


Mr. MACLEAN (Halifax):: Is the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment able to get sufficient quantities of insulin for the treatment of returned men in hospitals? I know that at Camp Hill hospital, Halifax, during the latter months of the past year it was impossible to secure sufficient insulin to afford relief to those who were suffering from that disease. I think the government, perhaps, might assist therefore in the production of a sufficient quantity of insulin to, at least, ensure treatment for returned men in hospitals. I think that would be a fair matter for government expenditure if money is the only impediment in the way of production. Perhaps it is not.


Henri Sévérin Béland: There is no limit to my desire to provide all the money necessary to give treatment to the ex-service men in hos-

Supply-Justice
pital. If insulin is available in sufficient qauntity, and is required for treatment in any of our hospitals, I will certainly give instructions that it be procured immediately.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Grants to the provinces of Canada, on condition that the provinces receiving grants will expend at least an equal amount in combatting venereal diseases, $200,000.
Henry Herbert Stevens: I submitted to the minister some time ago a resolution with reference to this matter, and I have his answer in my hand. It had to do with requests for the establishment of an institution for the treatment of contagious diseases, coming under this item, I presume. The minister's letter says that the matter will receive- consideration. Can he now say what consideration he has given to it?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Will my hon. friend state exactly what the subject was?


Henry Herbert Stevens: I will send the minister's own communication over to him.


Henri Sévérin Béland: This refers to the establishment of an institution in British Columbia for the treatment of contagious diseases. I would doubt, therefore, whether it would apply to venereal diseases. Generally speaking hospitals or establishments for the care and treatment of contagious diseases do not receive cases of venereal disease. The latter of course is contagious but in a much different manner from diseases such as smallpox, for example, or diphtheria. I do not think that I have taken any steps so far in order to meet the object of the resolution referred to in this letter. Dealing with the item under consideration, however, I must say that we have again decided to appropriate this rather large amount of $200,000 for the treatment, and prevention of the spreading, of venereal disease throughout Canada. This money is not spent directly by the Department of Health. It is distributed to the provinces in . proportion to population, and under certain conditions set	out in an order in council.
One of the conditions is that a province shall spend at least as large an amount as it receives as a grant from the federal government. During the last fiscal year the distribution of the grant was as follows:
Province	Amount-Received
New Brunswick	 $ 7,517
Nova Scotia	 10,573
Alberta		11,979
Manitoba	 12,611
British Columbia	 14,628
Saskatchewan	 15.361
Quebec	 47,388
Ontario	 57,473
.	REVISED
Prince Edward Island did not enter into this campaign. Each of the provinces mentioned has expended an amount at least equal to the federal grant, and has provided clinics for the free treatment of venereal disease, hospital beds for patients requiring indoor treatment, free treatment in other institutions such as reformatories and gaols, free laboratories for all necessary examination, and has also made provision for propaganda work. I may state further, that out of the vote a sum of $10,000 is being given to the National Council for the Prevention of Venereal Diseases.


Murray MacLaren: Is the minister able to state that there have been any beneficial results noticeable up to the present time?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am able to give that information mainly so far as the province of Quebec is concerned. In that province eight different clinics have been established, and the report of the provincial officer in charge of the work is to the effect that the results are really important and gratifying. We believe that we are achieving a good deal in checking the spread of venereal disease throughout Canada.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Possibly I may be out of order, but before the item carries I would like to ask the minister if he is making provision in any way for carrying out this work through the D.S.C.R. My reason for asking the question is that I know of returned soldiers suffering from venereal disease who were not pensionable and were therefore held to be not entitled to treatment from the D.S.C.R. I have one case in mind at present for whom I have been endeavouring to get treatment for nearly a year from that department. However, they disclaim any responsibility in the matter. They say there is no provision in the Pension Act to treat a patient unless he gets pay and allowances and these are not granted to a man who is not pensionable. In view of the fact that the government is giving aid, through the civil authorities, for the treatment of venereal disease, I think provision of the same nature ought to be made for returned soldiers.



DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

[Stage Direction]
Administration of Justice-Yukon territory, $30,600.
Joseph Tweed Shaw: Has the minister considered the advisability of having one of the Supreme Court Judges of British Columbia perform this work, and in that way save much of the expenditure which is involved in this item?


Hon.   S@: We would not? like to deprive the people



EDITION

[Stage Direction]
Questions
[Stage Direction]
of the Yukon of their judge. The population is not increasing, but it may some day.
Item agreed to.
Penitentiaries, $1,670,500.
Henry Lumley Drayton: This is a matter that we will require to discuss for some time.
I think perhaps my hon. friend will feel that he has made pretty good progress.


Sir LOMER GOUIN:: Then the item will stand.
Item stands.
On motion of Mr. Graham the House adjourned at 10.55 p.m.
Wednesday, February 28, 1923