1923-03-27

VIMY RIDGE MEMORIAL

Mr. SPEAKER:: I have the honor to inform the House that I have received the following letter from His Excellency, the President of the French Republic.
Le president de la Republique.
-	Paris, le 14 mars 1923.
Monsieur le President,-J'ai lu avec une vive emotion le compte rendu des debats de la Chambre des communes du Canada, relatifs au don d'un terrain sur le plateau de Vimy que la Republique frangaise a fait au Dominion du Canada.
Les idees qui y ont ete exprimees par tous les ora-teurs attestent les liens etroits qui unissent la France et le Canada et qui se resserreront chaque jour davan-tage.
Veuillez agreer, monsieur le President, 1 assurance de ma haute consideration,
A. Millerand.
Monsieur le President de la Chambre des communes du Canada.

%

The President of the Republic,
Paris, France, 14th March, 1923 Mr. Speaker,-I have read with deep emotion the debates of the House of Commons of Canada regarding the gift of a tract of land on the plateau of Vimy tendered by the French Republic to the Dominion of Canada. The ideas expressed by all the speakers bear witness to the close ties of friendship uniting France and Canada which are daily growing stronger.
Kindly accept, Mr. Speaker, the assurance of my highest regard.
A. Millerand.



BANKING AND COMMERCE

[Stage Direction]
Mr. MACLEAN (Halifax) presented the fourth report of the select standing committee on Banking and Commerce.
Mr. MACLEAN (Halifax) moved the
adoption of the fourth report.
Hewitt Bostock: Although the motion is not in writing I will put it by unanimous consent of the House.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Hon. W. S. FIELDING (Minister of Finance) :: Mr. Speaker, If I can have the unanimous consent of the House for the proceeding, I should like again to draw attention to the desirability of having an interim supply bill. On the assumption that there will be no objection to my doing so I may say that the procedure which I had asked the House to take yesterday was, I am assured, in accord with the established practice of the House. It had been contemplated that we should move concurrence in all the votes already passed in supply and then ask for a vote of one-sixth of the remainder. Hon. gentlemen opposite suggested that the motion for one-sixth should apply to the concurrence as well. As a matter of precedent, I think my own contention was the right one. But I am much more concerned to get the business done than to stand on any ceremony, and therefore I have asked the officials to prepare the resolutions so that they shall apply to one-sixth of the concurrence as well as to one-sixth of the votes. I have discussed this matter with the hon. ex-Minister of Finance (Sir Henry Drayton) who concurs in the motion I am now making. If the House is content that I shall take this course, I therefore move that the Speaker leave the chair and the House go into Committee of Supply in order that I may move the first resolution.
Motion agreed to and the House went into Committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair.

International Labour


William Stevens Fielding: I beg to move the following resolution:
Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $36,339,861.93, being one-sixth of the amount of each of the several items not yet voted as set forth in the Main Estimates for the fiscal year ending 31st March, 1924, laid before the House of Commons at the present session of parliament, excluding the amount of the second item of resolution 141, "Ottawa New Departmental Building, $500,000," be granted to His Majesty, on account, for the fiscal year ending March 31st., 1924.
Resolution reported, read the first and second time, and concurred in.


William Stevens Fielding: I beg to move:
That one-sixth of each of the resolutions reported from committee of supply, from the 20th February last to the 23rd March instant, inclusive, forming a total of $8,385,196.32 be now concurred in.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
The House in Committee of Ways and Means, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
William Stevens Fielding: Resolved that towards making good the supply granted to His Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the fiscal year ending March 31st 1924, the sum of $44,725,058.25 be granted out of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Mr. FIELDING thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 103 for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the Public Service for the financial year ending March 31, 1924.
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second time, considered in committee, read the third time and passed..

[Stage Direction]
Annual report of the Dominion Statistician for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1922.- Hon. Mr. Robb.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 92 (from the Senate), for the relief of Emily Margery Chrimes.-Mr. McQuarrie.
Bill No. 93 (from the Senate), for the relief of Lyle Johnson.-Mr. Church.
Bill No. 94 (from the Senate), for the relief of Annie Belle Wilson.-Mr. Church.
Bill No. 95 (from the Senate), for the relief of Henry John Burden.-Mr. Ryckman.
Bill No. 96 (from the Senate), for the relief of Ethel Olmstead.-Mr. Rankin.
Bill No. 97 (from the Senate), for the relief of Edward Lewis Britton.-Mr. Arthurs.
Bill No. 98 (from the Senate), for the relief of Ruby Minnie Stallworthy.-Mr. Porter.
Bill No. 99 (from the Senate), for the relief of Christopher Campkin.-Mr. Maybee.
Bill No. 100 (from the Senate), for the relief of Andrew George Suffel.-Mr. Preston.
Bill No. 101 (from the Senate), for the relief of Joseph Ross Wallace.-Mr. Church.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Right Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to refer to a return brought down yesterday by the Minister of Labour. In the first place, I draw his attention to the fact that the return does not comply with his. undertaking of the 23rd and his statement of the return yesterday. Obviously it does not contain all the correspondence. It does not contain the first communication to Mr. Pacaud, now of the High Commissioner's office, asking him to represent Canada. That would be an important element of the return, as it contains the instructions. I would point out also that the request which finally resulted in the appointment of Mrs. Carruthers was received, not late, as stated by the minister, but on the 6th of March, the meeting not being held until the 10th of April, and that the communication asking for Mr. Pacaud was not by cable, as stated by the minister, but by letter. It would appear, therefore, that there was plenty of time for another appointment. But I wish to impress upon the minister the fact that the return is obviously incomplete, possibly the most important letter of all not being included.


Hon. JAMES MURDOCK (Minister of Labour):: The right hon. gentleman is entirely right. The letter to Mr. Pacaud dated March 6, which was the date on which the agenda of the next meeting of the governing body was received, is regarded as a communication that it would be inadvisable under the circumstances to lay on the Table. I shall be glad, however, to let my right hon friend read it.


Arthur Meighen: I do not know why I should have special privileges. It is a letter giving the position of the government in relation to this convention, and, I presume, giving instructions. Surely that should not come under the category of secret diplomacy.


James Murdock: Not at all. It was written by the Minister of Labour expressing the view of the Department of Labour as to

British Columbia Fisheries

what was desired in such representation as might be undertaken by a properly qualified person at the sessions of the governing body. There is nothing improper in that communication. My right hon. friend can read it, though, and judge for himself.


Arthur Meighen: I do not suggest, I never thought of suggesting, that there was anything improper; but as it is the view of the Department of Labour, I do not know why it should be secret. However, that is the minister's position.



BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHING LICENSES

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. J. A. CLARK (Burrard) asked leave, under rule 39, to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the giving of a pledge in December last by the Department of Marine and Fisheries to the salmon canners of British Columbia respecting the regulations and conditions under which that industry might be conducted during the season of 1923, and the announcement in March 1923 by the same department that such pledge is not to be honoured, with immediate resultant loss to those engaged in such industry, who relied on the sanctity of the pledge so given.
Hewitt Bostock: The hon. member has followed the procedure and the practice with regard to motions of this kind. Under rule 39, subsection 4, the mover hands a written statement of the matter poposed to be discussed to the Speaker, who, if he thinks it in order, reads it out and asks whether the member has the leave of the House to proceed. The motion is certainly drafted as it should be. I must confess that I have a doubt as to the question whether or not the matter is one of urgent public importance. It would certainly be one of importance in the county which I have. the honour to represent, the county of Gaspe, and I know it is a matter of importance in British Columbia. Is it a matter of urgent public importance throughout the whole Dominion? Perhaps so. Indeed, I am inclined to believe it may be a matter of urgent public importance, affecting as it does a large industry, prices, and so on. Therefore I would give the hon. member the benefit of the doubt.


Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries):: May I say a word? I know this motion is not debatable, but I
[Mr. Murdock.!
wish to point out that my hon. friend advised me at a quarter past two to-day-I met him on the way to the dining-room-that he was going to bring up this matter this afternoon. I immediately asked for all the documents papers and records, but they have not yet arrived. I would ask my hon. friend to postpone this matter at least until to-morrow.


Mr. CLARK:: It is true I met the minister around noon and spoke to him about the matter, but I had tried during the morning to notify him. I left word at his department and told him what I proposed to do. But the fact is this-


Hewitt Bostock: I do not wish to interrupt the hon. gentleman but I should like to conclude the remarks I was making to the House in support of the stand I intend to take. The matter must be not only of public importance but also of urgency. On the question of urgency, the hon. gentleman states in his motion that the pledge alleged to have been given by the Department of Marine and Fisheries if not honoured would result in immediate loss to those engaged in this industry. Under the circumstances, therefore, I believe that I should favour the broad principle of freedom of speech and let the hon. gentleman air his grievance, if he has one. before the House.


John Arthur Clark: Last summer a Fisheries Commission was appointed to investigate the fisheries of British Columbia. During the time of its investigations the Department of Marine and Fisheries carried on negotiatons with the salmon canners of British Columbia, and in June last the department assured the canners that irrespective of the decision arrived at by the commission no change would be made in the number of licenses issued, other than white and Indian licenses, beyond the 10 per cent reduction laid down by the department. In December last the Fisheries Commission filed its preliminary report, which recommended a 40 per cent reduction of these licenses. The canners thereupon made an inquiry of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Lapointe) who sent this telegram to the Salmon Canners' Association:
No action will be taken on commission's report that will affect next season. Therefore existing regulations and policy including reduction in Oriental licenses decided upon last June will govern industry next year.
That reply was dated December, 22, 1922.


Mr. NEILL:: Who signed it?


John Arthur Clark: 
Mr. L. J. LADNER (Vancouver South):: I rise as the seconder of the motion. There is no doubt that this matter is one of great importance to British Columbia. I also have had some communications with the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Lapointe) regarding this matter. The salmon industry is one of the largest in Canada. It is one in which the co-operation of the proper department of the government is most necessary owing to the serious competition which the industry has to face from the United States, particularly the state of Washington across the line, and as the hon. member for Burrard (Mr. Clark) has mentioned, from Siberia also.
It seems to me, in a word, that the report of this commission, on the merits or demerits of which I do not propose to make any remarks at the present time, is not the question involved here, but the simple question of abiding by the undertaking of responsible members of the government so that business men, laying out their plans for the year-as cannery men must do-and making their expenditures and their arrangements, will be able to do so knowing that the governmental regulations under which they work will be of a kind consistent with the plans which they have formed. There may be some explanation which the minister has to offer; and I would urge upon the government, and upon hon. members, that this matter be dealt with
British Columbia Fisheries

dispassionately and fairly, and that the great industries of the country be not hampered or handicapped by action of this kind. There is no reason why they should be; there is nothing to be gained by changing an arrangement or undertaking such as that. Even the political aspect of the question is not one that would commend itself to a minister of the Crown under such circumstances. I trust that the government will see its way clear to make such adjustments, conforming to their own original declarations, as will give justice and fair treatment to those interested in the business.


Mr. WILLIAM DUFF (Lunenburg):: I am very glad indeed that both the hon. member for Burrard (Mr. Clark) and the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Ladner) have made such short speeches on such an important question as the fisheries of British Columbia. I will, therefore, endeavour to make my own remarks brief although I have been so loaded up with material on this very important matter during the past six months that I am afraid I shall continue talking all the afternoon and all the evening unless somebody pulls my coat tails as a signal for me to sit down. Now, Sir, if I understand the remarks of the hon. member for Burrard he finds no fault with the decision arrived at by the British Columbia Fisheries Commission, which was composed of members representing all the groups in this House.


John Arthur Clark: I reserve my remarks on that point.


William Duff: We will be very glad if the hon. member at some time in the future, will discuss the report of that commission; speaking for my fellow commissioners and myself we would be very glad indeed to see that report discussed. However, if I followed my hon. friend's remarks correctly, and also those of the hon. member for Vancouver South, there seems to be some difference of opinion as to whether a reduction of 10 per cent, or a reduction of 40 per cent, should be put into force in the case of Japanese licenses-


John Arthur Clark: No, that is wrong.


William Duff: Just let me finish my sentence- and because the department finally decided to. put the 40 per cent reduction into effect, my hon. friends argue that thereby the industry would suffer very seriously. Personally I do not think there is going to be any serious handicap placed on the canneries of British Columbia by reason of the fact that the government has put a 40 per cent reduction into effect.


Leon Johnson Ladner: If my hon. friend seriously intends to discuss the merits of the question he is not doing so. May I direct his attention to the fact that we make no argument with respect to the reduction of the licenses. The point we are emphasizing is the undertaking given by the government, which has nothing whatever to do with the report in question.


William Duff: What the hon. gentleman says may be quite correct, but if I correctly understood the argument of his colleague and himself they claimed that the government at a certain time decided to make a reduction of 10 per cent, and later reversed that decision and made a reduction of 40 per cent, and their complaint is that the government should have stuck to the 10 per cent reduction because their later action is seriously affecting the canneries of British Columbia.


Leon Johnson Ladner: No, that was not the argument.


William Duff: That is just exactly what my hon. friends said and nothing else. The whole thing boils itself down to this, if I understood both hon. gentlemen correctly, that due to the fact that the government, or some official in the Department of Marine and Fisheries, sent word to the fishery interests in British Columbia that a reduction of 10 per cent was to be made, and that afterwards another decision was arrived at and a reduction of 40 per cent effected, those interests are going to be seriously handicapped and affected in 1923, with the result that the men who operate the canneries are going to lose a large amount of money during that year. I am not trying to say that these two hon. gentlemen are in favour of a lower reduction in Japanese licenses; I am not arguing that at all. If that is their fear I will put their minds at rest right now. All I want to argue is this: Whether the department did or did not change their policy with regard to the percentage of licenses that should go into effect in 1923, nevertheless the canneries of British Columbia are not going to be seriously handicapped or affected by that policy. Now, what are the circumstances? It is a fact that salmon fishing in British Columbia does not start until some time in June-the 15th, of June if I remember correctly. Consequently even at this late day, although the 40 per cent policy has been adopted now for over a month, the fact remains that the canners have about five months in which to make their arrangements. Now, what arrangements have they to make? One hon. gentleman said they are going to lose hundreds of thousands of dollars.

British Columbia Fisheries


John Arthur Clark: May I ask Ihc hon. gentleman what he means by saying that the Banners have five months in which to make their arrangements?


William Duff: If the hon. gentleman will take into consideration the time from the date when it was decided by the department to put the 40 per cent reduction into effect it will not be very much less than five months.


John Arthur Clark: But the department decided to put the reduction into effect before they received the report. The report was filed on the 28th February.


William Duff: There was an interim report which asked the government to decrease the renewal licenses to Japanese by 40 per cent.


John Arthur Clark: That was on the 23rd December and the department gave its pledge that they were not going to consider it.


William Duff: Quite possibly. I am not arguing that the department did not change their policy, but evidently the members of the British Columbia Fisheries Commission were able ' to convince them that it was the right and proper thing to do, not only in the interests of the fisheries of British Columbia but in the interests of the people of the province as a whole; and as one of the commissioners I certainly think the department did the right and proper th.rng when they decided to accept the report ol the commission in that regard and reducing Japanese licenses 40 per cent. Now, Sir, the hon. member for Burrard said that the British Columbia canners had signed contracts for labour and material. Well, even if they have done so-


John Arthur Clark: And made advances.


William Duff: And made advances. To
whom? To Japanese. I hope my hon. friends will not press that part of the question. It is quite possible, as he said, that advances are made to fishermen; but the only advances which the canners make at this early date, or at the time my hon friend said they were made in December, is when they go to the Japanese bosses and engage a certain number of Japanese for the next season. Now there is nothing to prevent the canners from getting other fishermen; they have five months in which they can do it. There is absolutely no .reason why, if (.he canners want to employ white fishermen they cannot go and get them. I say it is about time-in British Columbia or anywhere else-that white people should be employed in the fishing business, and the canners ought to go out and get help of that kind.


Leon Johnson Ladner: Does the hon. gentleman seriously contend that it makes one bit of difference, so far as the honour of the government is concerned, whether the moneys were advaned to Japanese, Chinese, Hottentots or anybody else? If relying on the pledge of the government the canners set out on a certain business course and now the government takes the ground from under them and subjects them to a loss of several thousand dollars, what difference does it make to whom the advances are made?


William Duff: I am glad my hon. friend has set the loss at several thousand dollars. The hon. member for Burrard said the loss would amount to hundreds of thousands of dollars. I am very doubtful whether the canners have advanced any money to the fishermen in British Columbia up to the present date-very doubtful indeed. It is true, of course, that the canners have to make certain arrangements such as buying cans, tin plate, boxes and other supplies for the fisheries; but what difference is it going to make to the canners of British Columbia whether the reduction in Japanese licenses is 10 per cent or 40 per cent as regards the quantity of supplies which they have to buy for the 1923 fisheries? If my hon. friend will read the statistics of the British Columbia fisheries he will see that in certain years when there has been a smaller number employed than in previous years, there has been a larger catch. Therefore, the man engaged in fishing in British Columbia cannot know the quantity of boxes or other supplies he will require from time to time. He has to prepare himself to handle a large quantity of fish, and, consequently, it is impossible for him to argue that because a certain per cent reduction in the number of licenses issued to orientals is taking place the canners are going to be seriously affected in that regard. I do not wish to argue that the department is infallible. It is as liable to make mistakes as other people, and I might say that perhaps the Department of Marine and Fisheries makes more mistakes than some other departments, but that is no reason why it should be condemned in this matter, and I do not think it is a matter of grave public importance to be discussed this afternoon or that the House should be prevented from going into Committee of Supply. This matter might have been discussed when the fishery estimates were before the House. There would have been ample time to discuss it then, and the only reason I can see why it is brought up now is to make political capital against the department and the government. I contend the British Columbia fisheries are
1544	COMMONS
British Columbia Fisheries
not going to be affected in the least by the fact that the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Ladner) has said that one of the officials of the department sent a telegram in December last to British Columbia saying that the 10 per cent reduction was going into effect. I think I can say truthfully that, perhaps, I have received more correspondence regarding this matter and other matters connected with the British Columbia fisheries before and since our interim and final reports were filed, than any other man in this House. I have received telegrams and letters upholding the views of the commission, thanking the commission for recommending the 40 per cent reduction, not only from the fishermen of British Columbia, not only from citizens of British Columbia, not themselves interested in the fisheries, but also from gentlemen interested in the fisheries. I do not think there is any very great concern in British Columbia about the 40 per cent reduction, or the loss it will entail upon the canners when it goes into effect. In fact I have a telegram from a prominent canner; I just happened to find it a moment ago. The telegram is
4 p.m. addressed to me and quotes a telegram sent to the minister part of which is as follows:
We urge your department to put in force the recommendation of the Duff report and immediate application of exclusion of Japanese from seine operations or working on same. Any variation from this, such as 40 per cent reduction, will cause endless worry to those who use whites and Indians and will only lead to endless trouble in the future; there is plenty of good white men and Indians for this work and our company have not for years used any Japs on either herring or salmon seines.


Arthur Meighen: Who is that from?
Mr. DUFF 1 I will give the name if the hon. member wants it, but perhaps the gentleman who wrote it would not want his name mentioned. I will show it to the hon. member, if he wishes to see it. It is from a prominent canner and is addressed to me. He quotes a telegram which he sent to the minister.


Mr. HANSON:: I thought it was from the
new Minister of Fisheries.


William Duff: I did not catch that remark. Now, Sir, the hon. member for Vancouver South referred to the fact that the Canadian canners on the Fraser river had to compete with the American fishermen and canners, and for that reason, I understood him to say, he did not think it was right for the department to change their decision. Everybody knows that the Americans do not employ Japanese in their operations on the

Fraser river, and consequently his argument falls to the ground.
I do not think it is necessary for me to discuss this matter any further. All I wish to say is that I think the Department of Marine and Fisheries were fully justified in accepting the report of the British Columbia Fisheries Commission. Nobody is going to be hurt in any possible way, so far as we can see. We went into the matter just as fully as it was possible in the four weeks prior to the date upon which we signed our report. Every member of that commission, practically for every day, was discussing what was best to put in our report, and we gave a great deal of time and thought to this matter, and, with the exception of one of the members of the commission who did not quite concur with us in regard to the 40 per cent reduction, we were practically unanimous on all the other phases of the questions discussed. But I say, from my knowledge of the matter, that the cannere of British Columbia are not going to be affected. I do not need to discuss the report, but I wish to say that in that report a great many concessions are made to the canners-more than any other commission ever gave them. I do not think the canners will say that I am not favourable to them and that I do not want to see them get a square deal. I think it is practically second nature to me to be interested in the fisheries of this country. From the time, almost, that, I drew breath I have been interested, and my people before me, in the fishing business, and from the standpoint of the fish merchant; so that any particular sympathy which I would have would naturally be with the men who have to invest large sums of money in this industry and who sometimes do not get very large returns. Consequently, I say that the commission did not arrive at its decision with a view of doing anything which would be in any way detrimental to the interests of the canners. We had all these representations made to us by the canners. We were told that the department had first thought of making a 10 per cent reduction. They told us their business would be affected by it. We made every possible investigation we could into the matter before we arrived at our decision, and I think hon. members will agree with me that, with the composition of the commission, the decision we arrived at is in the interests of British Columbia, and in the interests not only of the fishermen but of the men who have their money invested in that industry.


Ernest Lapointe: It is indeed of some

British Columbia Fisheries
interest that we should be attacked for having been too harsh towards a certain class of orientals in British Columbia. There is something queer about this question. There are members who want to exclude the orientals, except those whom they employ themselves, or who are employed by their friends. It reminds me of an incident in my early parliamentary career in this House. The House had been seized with the very question of oriental immigration to British Columbia, and gentlemen had been vehement in their denunciations of the government for allowing these people to come into Canada. After four or five speeches along that line I remember one of their cleverest members of the House at that time, the late Mr. Ralph Smith, in a speech he delivered said: "Now, I want to know who among the gentlemen who have just spoken does not employ orientals in his own personal business?" And he added, "Don't all talk at once." Nobody answered. Well, last year we had a very interesting discussion in this House when a similar motion was considered, and a dark picture indeed was painted of the dangers that were menacing British Columbia. My hon. friend who is moving the adjournment this afternoon made a speech himself, and I may be allowed to cite just a few words from it. He said:
I submit we must take our stand on this question and take it at once. We must be firm; we must be clear and definite in our policy. If we do that we shall be respected; if we do not, we shall be treated contemptuously.
And the hon. member concluded by saying:
It is a matter for the white race, particularly the Canadian white race, to consider and deal with now before the menace becomes such that our whole country is more seriously threatened than it is to-day. I am in entire agreement with my fellow members from British Columbia, and I sincerely hope that the House will take the matter firmly in hand without delay.
Well, I thought that perhaps I had taken the matter somewhat firmly in hand recently, and I am now faced with the criticism of my hon. friend who says I have violated solemn pledges and should issue more licenses to Japanese in British Columbia. Now, Mr. Speaker, what are the facts of the case? A committee was appointed to study the question of the fisheries in British Columbia. And with the consent of the House, indeed at the unanimous demand of the House, a commission was appointed composed of members of that committee to go and hear witnesses and investigate all matters concerning the British Columbia fisheries and make a report. Members were selected from every side of the House and I may give the list of them. This commission was composed of the member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff), who was chairman, the
member for Nanaimo (Mr. Dickie), the member for Hants (Mr. Martell), the member for New Westminster (Mr. McQuarrie), the member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill), and the member for Skeena (Mr. Stork). Four of the members of that commission are representing British Columbia in this House. The commission investigated every matter concerning the fisheries of that province; they heard witnesses in various parts of British Columbia; and while their labours were still uncompleted they sent in an interim report to the department recommending that the number of licenses of all kinds issued to other than white British subjects and Indians in 1923 be 40 per cent less than the number issued in 1922. They stated that they were still considering the subject and that the final report would be filed later on. At that time, in December last, I was away, but I do not want to evade any responsibility; I accept the full responsibility for everything that was done in the department. The officers of the department, however, said that taking into account the fact that the report was only of an interim character and that there was no finality in the finding of the commission at that time, this provision should not apply to the next season. I admit that this was done.


Leon Johnson Ladner: Was it not the deputy who said that?


Ernest Lapointe: Yes; nobody said it was not the deputy. The commission continued its work until the 28th of February, and it filed another report in which I find the following on page 8:
The commissioners were absolutely unanimous on all points dealt with in their interim recommendations, with the exception of the one dealing with the closing of Fraser river to sockeye fishing for five years. Two of the commissioners differed from the majority, as will appear later, on the question as to how overfishing was to be prevented after the closed period.
The representations that have been made by the various interests concerned in the British Columbia fisheries, as well as the objections raised by certain officials of the department since the publication of the commission's interim report have been carefully considered by the commissioners before the writing of their final report. Our conclusions and recommendations hereinafter set forth have therefore been reached and agreed upon in the full light of the said further recommendations.
On page 13 the recommendation of the committee appears as follows:
We therefore again recommend and most strongly urge-
And mark, they cay previously that it is in the light of the knowledge they had of what had passed between the department and the interests concerned that they make their recommendation.
British Columbia Fisheries

-that the number of licenses of all kinds, except trolling licenses, issued to other than white British Columbia subjects and Indians in 1923 be 40 per cent less than the number issued in 1922.
Now, one of the members of the commission, my hon. friend from Nanaimo (Mr. Dickie), did not agree with the recommendation in so far as it reduced by 40 per cent the number of licenses to be issued. He wanted the reduction to be only 25 per cent.


Mr. DICKIE:: That referred only to the waters of the Skeena and the Naas, for reasons which I gave to the House; it had no reference to the waters below, where the majority of the fishermen are employed.


Ernest Lapointe: Except in the area to which my hon. friend refers, I think he was in favour of a reduction by 40'per cent.


Charles Herbert Dickie: Yes, decidedly so.


Ernest Lapointe: But even in the district of which my hon. friend made an exception, recommending a reduction of only 25 per cent, he agreed with all the other commissioners that the reduction should take effect this year for the season of 1923. So that a commission composed of members of this House representing all sides, four of whom represented British Columbia, considered the question, knowing everything that had passed, and recommended and insisted very urgently that this reduction should be made at once.


Arthur Meighen: Does the minister say
that they knew of the government's pledge of December?


Ernest Lapointe: They practically say so:
In the full light of the said further representations.


Arthur Meighen: Does the minister say that they were informed of the government's pledge, or that their report had any relation in the world to that pledge?


Ernest Lapointe: I do not know whether they saw the telegram which my hon. friend construes as a pledge. I must draw his attention to the fact that their recommendation was based on an interim report, while the present decision of the department is based on the final report unanimously recommending and insisting that the department make its decision effective this year. And that is why I have issued instructions accordingly. Now, Mr. Speaker, I hesitate to think that anyone will suffer by reason of that decision. Is it to be said that the white fishermen of British Columbia cannot do their work?


Leon Johnson Ladner: Has the minister any
reason to doubt the positive assertion of the canners' association?


Ernest Lapointe: I have had representations not only from the canners but from members of the House of Commons and, as well, from members of that commission. And my hon. friend himself speaks violently in this House against the danger of employing Japanese fishermen. My hon. friend and Ins associates last year said that British Columbia was confronted with the danger of all its fisheries going to the Japanese. Yet directly the very first step is taken by this department to avert the danger by reducing the licenses to Japanese fishermen, I am accused by those hon. gentlemen of having broken faith with the salmon canners of British Columbia.


Leon Johnson Ladner: Mr. Speaker-


Hewitt Bostock: Order. The hon. member can only speak by leave of the hon. gentleman who has the floor.


Leon Johnson Ladner: I hesitate to rise a second time, but the hon. minister has touched upon an important point. May I ask him if anything which either the hon. member for Bur-rard (Mr. Clark) or I stated can give him the slightest excuse-


Ernest Lapointe: That is a matter of argument.


Leon Johnson Ladner: -to say that we alluded to the reduction of Japanese licenses or the oriental question at all?


Hewitt Bostock: Order.


Ernest Lapointe: In conclusion, Mr. Speaker I may say that the licenses will not be issued until next month. And here is a letter of which my hon. friend for Vancouver South (Mr. Ladner) received a copy. In answer to my hon. friend for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) I wrote him on March 14th, 1923, as follows:
My dear Mr. Stevens,-I have your note of the 12th inst., with which was enclosed a telegram addressed to you by the B. C. Salmon Packers Association protesting against the proposal of the department to reduce the number of licenses to Japanese fishermen and asking for sympathetic consideration of the same by me.
You will recall that the special fisheries commission appointed to inquire into fishery matters in British Columbia during the past season, submitted an interim report in the month of September last, recommending inter alia the reduction of licenses to fishermen other than whites and Indians by 40 per cent. In view of the intimation by the commission that a fuller and final report would follow at a later period, the officials of the department after having given the matter careful consideration concluded not to make effective the recommendations contained in the interim report for the season 1923. The commission has in the meantime completed its investigations and submitted it* final report a few days ago. The commissioners, with Mr. Dickie dissenting, adhere to the recommendations submitted in the interim report to the effect that these licenses should be reduced by 40 per cent. Mr. Dickie,

British Columbia Fisheries
in a minority report recommends that the reduction should not be more than 25 per cent. The commissioners, however, are unanimous in strongly urging that these reductions should be made effective during the present season.
Having regard to the fact that four members representing constituencies in British Columbia sat on this commission, I have felt that I would not be warranted in ignoring their views and declining to make this recommendation effective. It was accordingly decided that the reductions recommended by the majority report should be put into effect this present season and the necessary instructions to that end have already issued. If, however, it appears to you that the general interests of the fisheries are in any way prejudiced by the decision of the department in this regard, the matter might well receive further consideration by the House of Commons Committee on Marine and Fisheries.
Why do not those gentlemen take advantage of the committee that has [DOT] been reappointed for this session, and is actually sitting, to discuss this matter? Then should the committee find otherwise than the commission has found, the question will be still open for further consideration.


Arthur Meighen: Mr. Speaker, if the issue raised by the hon. member for Burrard (Mr. Clark) is not by this time thoroughly obscured, it will not be for lack of will or of skill on the part of the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr Duff) and of the hon. minister (Mr. Lapointe).


William Duff: Thank you very much.


Arthur Meighen: What has the House discussed? One would think from the speeches heard from the other side that an appeal had been made by hon. gentlemen behind me against the treatment of Japanese in the province of British Columbia, and urging that more Japanese fishermen be employed, even against the report of the Fisheries Commission that has sat on the subject and made recommendations. No hon. gentleman is so dull as to honestly imagine that that is the issue or that it is relevant to the issue in the remotest way.
The report of the Fisheries Commission everyone understands. We have not all read it. There was an interim report last December ; a final report on the 28th February. The final report, in so far as respects the question of license reduction, was the same as the interim report, which recommended that there be a reduction of Japanese licenses by 40 per cent, effective this year. As to that there is no dispute in the world, and no one in the House has raised the question that that report is good or is bad; no one on this side is objecting to its terms. Then why do hon. members rise and read extracts from speeches delivered last session urging that the Japanese
be excluded? No one recedes from his position in that regard at all.
Now, what is the issue that we are discussing? It is that this government, in response to an inquiry from the British Columbia Salmon Fisheries' Association last December,-an inquiry made by them in order that they might know how to go about their business, making their purchases, making their advances and making their contracts; an inquiry that had to be answered that they might make these preliminary arrangements- gave a definite and unequivocal answer applicable to all this year's business. On the faith of that the British Columbia Salmon Fisheries' Association went to work and made their investments, they hired their men, they made advances to those men, and they made their purchases. After they have thus prepared themselves for their season's work the government comes along in March of this year and says: We will break every pledge we have made to you and will put you back in the position you would have occupied if we had made no pledge to you at all.


William Duff: If the right hon. gentleman will allow me to correct him? He says that the British Columbia Salmon Canners' Association have hired their men for this season. They could not hire their men until the licenses are issued for this season, and the minister has told us that these licenses will not be issued until next month.


Arthur Meighen: The canners must make their contracts with the men they engage.


William Duff: They cannot do it.


Arthur Meighen: Of course, in all these matters the member for Lunenburg says the canners have made no losses. Then I wonder what they are complaining about.


William Duff: I do not know.


Arthur Meighen: The hon. member knows their business a lot better than they do themselves of course. He is the self-constituted president of the exchequer court of the world.


William Duff: Mr. Speaker, of course the right hon. leader of the Opposition can talk either about sewer gas or angels' wings and impute to me knowledge concerning those things, but it is not fair on his part to say that I claim all knowledge concerning the business of the British Columbia salmon canners. I did not say any such thing, and I am not going to allow him to make any such implication. It is not worthy of him.
British Columbia Fisheries


Arthur Meighen: If the hon. gentleman will admit that the British Columbia salmon canners ought to know their own business better than he knows it-*


William Duff: They ought to.


Arthur Meighen: Then that ends the argument.


William Duff: And you might as well sit down, for you do not know anything about it.


Hewitt Bostock: Order.


Arthur Meighen: If I sit down now and the hon. gentleman sticks to his admission, the government will have to recede. Now, the minister tries to make the House believe that it was some conditional expression oi view that his department made last December; that there was some expression of opinion by officers of his department that, as this report was merely temporary or interim, they would not feel themselves bound by it, and that in the face of such a conditional expression of view they were quite justified in March of this year in declaring that the final report would be put into effect. Have I misstated in the slightest degree, have I coloured in any way, what the minister said? The minister took good care not to read the undertaking given. This was an undertaking given by his department in response to an inquiry by business men in order that they might know how they should address themselves to the task of making their engagements for this year. If it was not of an}' importance, why would they have made the inquiry? Did they make it just for the fun of sending the telegram? It was because it was of business consequence to them; surely every hon. member will admit that-unless he wants to sit above and in judgment over them and declare that he knows their business better than they. The answer given to the inquiry by the Deputy Minister of the Department of Marine and Fisheries, sent from Ottawa on December 23, was as follows:
No action will be taken on commission's report that will affect next season, therefore existing regulations and policy, including reduction in oriental licenses decided upon last June, will govern industry next year.
A. Johnston,
Deputy Minister.
The minister would lead the House to believe that in the face of that pledge, as direct, as unequivocal, as inescapable a pledge as ever a department gave or ever a man gave, he is free now to tell these people that the regulations will be changed; that there will be not a 10 per cent reduction as fixed for this year, but a 40 per cent reduction, notwithstanding anything they may have done on the faith of that telegram.


Mr. MARTELL:: Does my right hon. friend say that is too much?


Arthur Meighen: The hon. gentleman is as far from the point as he was at the beginning, and it is hopeless for me to bring him to it.


Lewis Herbert Martell: That is no answer. Is
my right hon. friend afraid of a 40 per cent reduction of Japanese licenses?


Arthur Meighen: If I stand in my place
long enough to bring the commissioner himself to an understanding of the argument, I am afraid I shall impose upon the House. All my efforts so far have been in vain so far as he is concerned, but perhaps that is a credit to my efforts after all. Well, having received that pledge from the department, they ask for confirmation. Here is what they get in reply to their wire:
Your understanding re reduction oriental licenses including trolling correct. Oriental licenses district 2 are to be attached. Reduction to each cannery to be made on number employed this year, preference being given returned soldiers and residents who are bona fide fishermen.
W. A. Found.
Mr. Found, I understand, is Superintendent of Fisheries in the department. So that two leading officers in this department-for whose words and whose undertakings the minister takes responsibility now, and rightly so; he places himself in the position of having signed these telegrams himself-give that assurance to these people, on the faith of which they act. They now come to the government and say. You declare to us that you are not going to abide by that promise; you declare you are going to put into effect a forty per cent reduction. Does the question as to the rightness of the forty per cent reduction come in? Is that an issue now? No hon. gentleman, except possibly one, would ever suggest it was. The other parties to the contract come and say: As the result of the pledge you gave us we have invested hundreds of thousands of dollars; if you break that pledge, we are heavy losers. Now, is it the right of this House to judge whether they are losers or not? Is it the right of the government? I ask the hon. Acting Minister of Railways (Mr. Graham) or any member of the government this: Suppose he made a contract with a second party and after the second party had solemnly agreed to the undertaking the minister went ahead to carry it out. Suppose he got his operations well under way and the other party came and said: I cannot abide by the contract; I am going to break it here and now-would he think he had the right or the other party had the right to say whether he was damaged or not? Let us

British Columbia Fisheries
put the government to the test? Will this government undertake to stand liable for the damages to the British Columbia fisheries if they are established before the Exchequer Court? Will the government in this debate undertake to make themselves liable for any damage these men prove they have suffered as the result of the breach of contract by the administration?


Lewis Herbert Martell: Who said it was a breach of contract?


Arthur Meighen: Let them establish it, if they can, before the Exchequer Court of Canada; and if they do, will this government pay the damages? Unless they are ready to make that undertaking, then all the talk they have given us in this debate is just so much froth.


Lewis Herbert Martell: What about your own?


Hewitt Bostock: Order. Hon. members must always ask leave of the hon. member who has the floor before interrupting him to put a question. The only interruption provided for in the mass of precedents is sometimes a mild " hear, hear."


Arthur Meighen: In case, Mr. Speaker, there should be any doubt, let me emphasize that your ruling applies even to the hon. member for Hants (Mr. Martell).


Lewis Herbert Martell: And it doubly applies to the hon. leader of the Opposition.


Arthur Meighen: Let me emphasize before I sit down that this undertaking does not make any reference whatever to any condition ; it is that the commission's report will not be followed for 1923, and it states that throughout that year the regulations that applied last year and the reduction that went into effect as of June of last year will apply for this year. Thus those men were authorized to go ahead on the faith of the pledge of the department. All I want to bring home to the House is this: Those are the terms of the undertaking given, an undertaking which is confirmed by the Superintendent of Fisheries of the department.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Mr. Speaker-


Arthur Meighen: All these things were known to the minister when on the first of March last he told those engaged in the salmon fisheries in British Columbia-


Lewis Herbert Martell: Will the hon. gentleman-


Arthur Meighen: -that the government did not propose to abide by that undertaking.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Will the hon. gentleman permit a question?


Arthur Meighen: I will appeal to the Speaker to bring the hon. member for Hants within the range of the courtesies of parliament.


Lewis Herbert Martell: I wish to ask my right hon. friend a question.


Hewitt Bostock: Order.


Arthur Meighen: Perhaps there is some reason for special indulgence to the member for Hants at this particular time. Now, the commission, whether or not any member of it had knowledge of the pledge does not matter, was not asked to report as to what the action of the department should be in relation to any special undertaking of the department; it was asked to report what the policy of the department should be in relation to the conditions in the fisheries industry' of British Columbia. That was what they had to base their finding on, and that alone. So far as I know, no hon. member on this side had knowledge that such a pledge would be or was given. I do know that no hon. member on this side, not even the member of the commission, had knowledge of that pledge. I know that he would have repudiated it, or rather would have stated that no such pledge should have been given; that the minister had no right to give [DOT] it during the pendency of the work of the commission. The report of the commission had no relation to any undertaking of the department, and so far as I know, no hon. member on this side had any knowledge at all of that undertaking. Had he had such knowledge; had the hon. member for Nanaimo (Mr. Dickie) or the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. McQuarrie) had knowledge of the undertaking, they would not have been justified in having regard to it in making their report. I have not the slightest doubt that they would have paid no attention to the undertaking in determining their duty in relation to the finding of the commission. They had to make a finding on the facts connected with the fisheries industry, what they believed to be best for the industry in British Columbia, and were it not for tins undertaking which the minister should not have given, but which he has given, every one of them would want the report in force, and in force at once. Now it is very easy for us to stand here and say, Oh, these men have not suffered any damage, they can get white men. Everybody knows another man's business usually except that other man himself. We say that aside from pledges no matter whether it is of damage to them
British Columbia Fisheries

or not, the public interest must be considered, and that in the adoption of a general policy as to fisheries there must be a reduction of Japanese licenses. If they are told that in advance and are told to make their arrangements in advance, then, whatever loss there may be, that loss is certainly not chargeable to us; we have done the best we could to make it the least possible. But when they are told the very opposite in advance, that no reduction will be made beyond what was made last year, and they make all their arrangements and all their engagements accordingly, surely it is hardly the part of dignity or of honesty for this government to say: You do not know what you are talking about; you think you have been damaged, but you have not been; we will be the judges whether you are damaged or not-we who at the very moment are admittedly breaking the pledge we gave.	,
That is the case, as I understand it, of the hon. member for Burrard (Mr. Clark), and it seems to mu that the matter of the honour and the good faith of parliament and of government is surely yet of some consequence in this country. I know it has been seriously tampered with of recent months. Hon. members on all sides of this House know that. Hon. members opposite have had their own newspapers calling it in their ears month after month since their conduct has been disclosed to the people of Canada. But still it is of some importance. How can we establish courts of justice through the country in order to compel individuals each with the other to keep his contract if we set the example of violating contracts ourselves, callously and with impunity? The first duty of government is to hold to every engagement it makes-to uphold the honour of the state. If we fail to do that, we will soon find the effects in disrespect for parliament, disrespect for government, and a general lowering of morale throughout the whole country.


Mr. ALFRED STORK (Skeena) :: As a
member of the fisheries commission I wish to say that I was thoroughly apprised of the notification issued on the 22nd day of December in regard to the proposal to reduce the number of fishing licenses other than to whites and Indians by ten per cent. I did all within my power to have that regulation become non-operative. I was thoroughly convinced that the industry would not suffer if the reduction were made forty per cent.
In connection with the submission of our report, the majority report and the minority report, one thing was sure, that the desire of the whole commission was that the recommendsfMr. Meighon.l
tions should become operative for the year 1923. I presume that I have received copies of all telegrams that have been flooding the capital since this controversy commenced, and I notice that one of the forces used in connection with their argument is the condition in which the canning industry finds itself to-day. Each and every telegram claims that they are suffering loss and are liable to suffer tremendous losses by reason of Siberian competition. The canners, I think, find themselves in this position, that for years they have carried on their operations without hindrance from the people of Canada. They have hired whomsoever they would, with the result that the people whom they have employed for a great number of years in their canneries have learned the cannery business and have gone over to Siberia and established themselves in the canning business there, and they are now competitors in the world's markets. That is one complaint which the cannery people of British Columbia make to-day, of the competition of orientals and foreigners, who, I am free to say, learnt their trade in the shops of the canners of British Columbia.
Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention to speak at length. If I got this question right, the issue before the House is this: The department made a pronouncement on the 22nd day of December to the effect that a ten per cent reduction would be made. Recently another pronouncement was made that the reduction would be forty per cent. The hon. member for Burrard (Mr. Clark) and the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Ladner) claim that this is a breach of faith and that the further reduction should not come into operation. If I understood the member for Vancouver South correctly, he said that much loss would accrue to the cannery people by reason of the increased reduction. The minister has pointed out that even as yet there have been no licenses issued. We have made an alteration apparently between December and March. But the door is still open, as I understand it; modification can still be made, and I would ask the hon. member for Burrard and the hon. member for Vancouver South to put their sincerity to the test and to move here and now that the regulations be altered so as to revert to the ten per cent reduction or whatever other proportion they may deem proper and right.


Alan Webster Neill: I would like to begin by confirming the statement made by the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff) that American canners do not use Japanese in their fishing industry. I

British Columbia Fisheries
believe they use some in their canneries, the same as is done in Canada, but not in the fishing industry.
One of the members from Vancouver made the remark that the cannery men were liable to suffer heavy loss owing to having made big advances to fishermen, and the hon. member for Lunenburg challenged him to say with whom these contracts were made, and he made the suggestion that these contracts were made with Japanese. The hon. member for Vancouver demanded proof of that fact. I think I am in a position to give him proof. One has only got to look at the patent facts. The restrictions proposed to be made on these licenses deal only with Japanese. There are no restrictions on Indians or whites. Consequently if the cannery man made a contract with an Indian or a white a month or a year in advance, nothing would happen to them. The cannery man could not lose on these fellows because there is no restriction with regard to them as to the number of licenses to be issued. The only restrictions are as to the number to be issued to the Japanese, and it must follow that it is on contracts with Japanese that they are standing to lose. The matter is a small one and I see no reason why the hon. member should have been ashamed to tell the facts that the cannery men fear they are going to lose something on their contracts made in advance with their Japanese friends.
I know the point made by the leader of the Opposition (Mr. Meighen) and also by the hon. member for Vancouver South. The point is in part well taken. They claim that the grievance of the cannery men is not the reduction of the Japanese licenses but the failure to carry out a pledge made by someone in the Marine and Fisheries department. I thoroughly understand that is the point to which they wish to confine the debate, but you cannot confine it to that narrow issue because the cannery men's position is clearly set forth in their telegrams and according to what they say the issue cannot be so narrowed down. If the cannery men stood to make money out of this departure from the pledge given by somebody in the Fisheries department do we suppose they would be coming here complaining? This action is taken because of the cannery men's fear that they are going to lose money, and that is why their cause is being championed here. Therefore it is entirely legitimate for us to consider, in reviewing the whole question whether they are or are not going to lose money in consequence of this alleged change of policy on the part of the Fisheries department.
There is another thing that I would like to point out. While the changes have been rung on the terms 'TO per cent" and "40 per cent" that is hardly a fair thing. That only applies to one river, and possibly two-the Skeena and the Naas-it does not apply to the other rivers. Now, the regulations suggested by the department were not that the 10 per cent should apply all over British Columbia, and it is quite unfair to use that as a comparison as against 40 per cent. It is done to create the idea that some sudden, violent, drastic change has been carried out by the department in consequence of the report of the Fisheries Commission. That is not so. The scale of reductions suggested by the departmental officials runs from 10 per cent in one case up to as high as 50 per cent in some places; and while I would not suggest that 40 per cent is the average, because it would not be so, still I wish to press the point that it is not a comparison between the 10 and 40 per cent but possibliy, on one or two cases at least, between 50 per cent and 40 per cent. The 40 per cent is probably more than the average but still there are a number of places where it was graded from 10, 15, 25, 40 and 50 per cent.
Now as to the report of the Fisheries Commission, in nearly every instance the cannery men themselves appreciated the fact that the economic situation in British Columbia was so desperate in regard to the white population that they admitted-reluctantly in most cases but they did admit-that a reduction was coming. They, of course, wanted to make the reduction as low as possible, because they think it is profitable to hire Japanese, but they did in nearly every instance, with the exception of one or two-and we heard some 197 witnesses in all-agree that a reduction was coming, so they lent themselves, at least, to some reduction. Now, the great point stressed in the letters and in the telegrams to the department, some of which were read this afternoon, was that the cannery men would be in a hole on account of this restriction; that they would not be able to get white or Indian fishermen to take the place of those restricted. That is the sum and substance of their argument. Well, I would like to ask those gentlemen who are championing their cause so ably this afternoon if they ever made any attempt to get white or Indian fishermen? It is on record-when speaking on the subject of immigration I quoted from a newspaper clipping stating the fact-that 30 or 40 Norwegian fishermen had passed through Winnipeg on their way to Prince Rupert, where the hon. member for
British Columbia Fisheries

Skeena (Mr. Stork) resides, to engage in the fisheries industry, induced, no doubt, by the expected reduction of Japanese licenses. Now, if there is likely to be any shortage of fishermen as a result of this reduction in Japanese licenses there is a source from which the canners can get men to take their places. Canners will not get very many fishermen by simply sitting in their offices and sending out telegrams.
There is another point to which I would like to draw attention. The importance of this fight, I may say, centres round the Skeena river because it is there where the department's reduction was 10 per cent and 40 per cent was recommended by the commission. We took ample evidence there. We spent a lot of time on the Skeena river which is a most important river-probably the most important river-in British Columbia now in salmon production and the evidence ran-I have not the figures at present, the debate has been brought on so suddenly-but speaking from recollection I think the united Japanese, white and Indian fishermen on that river last year would be in the neighbourhood of 1,100 or 1,080, of which 600 or 700 would be Japanese, or it may be 680. Man after man, of their own accord, swore in the witness box that the fishing would be much better on the Skeena river, if, and had been much better, when, there were only 800 boats on that river. Some of the cannery men themselves pleaded with us to go back to the old system of restricted licenses and only to put 800 boats on. They said it would be much better for the cannery men, and much better for the conservation of the fish. If a reduction of 40 per cent is made on the Skeena river it will only bring the number of fishermen down to something like the former number of 800, even if no extra whites are obtained. If the records are consulted of the number of salmon taken on the Skeena river during the last ten years it will be found that the greatest quantity was caught when the number of boats allowed was only 800. And possibly therefore the cannery men will not be ruined, possibly they will not be bankrupt, if the reduction to 40 per cent is made, because when there were 800 boats at work the fishery enured to the profit of the canneryman. I am not saying that we should not take the word of the cannery men, but if you were to ask me for my candid opinion of their telegrams, as to whether I thought they were entirely accurate, I would say, certainly not. We had evidence given last year before our Fisheries committee of the House where cannery men came and swore what the results would be if certain action were not [DOT] 
taken. One gentleman said: My cannery will not run again if you do not do so and so. I made it my business during the tour of the commission last year to inquire whether the cannery of the gentleman who had made this statement was still running and, singular to relate, I found he was still running his canneries in spite of his statement on oath that if we did not do what he wanted us to do he would close up his establishment. I do not say that the cannery men are less credible than any other body of men engaged in promoting their own interest; it is only human nature for a man who is seeking some favour from the government to exaggerate his case to the very limit.
While our interim report was not given to the department, I find, until December, the recommendation was well known in British Columbia before that.


Mr. DUNCAN:: How did it become known in British Columbia?


Alan Webster Neill: The information leaked out
through some official or officials. Before the commission adjourned we had agreed to keep the nrntter secret until the chairman had presented the report; but the recommendation became known in British Columbia before he got as far as Winnipeg on his way home. Now why did not the cannery men, if they were sensible business men, after hearing of our interim report, wait a little while until they found out what was going to be done? The minister has dealt with what we might refer to as the December pledge, but there is also what I may refer to as the June pledge. The hon. member for Burrard,-and to-day is the first time I heard of it, in almost the first sentence of his speech used these words: "The department in June assured the canners"-in British Columbia of course- "that irrespective of the report of the commission no change would be made." Now we did not meet until the middle or end of August and yet in June those cannery men were assured by somebody in the department that it did not matter what our report was they were perfectly safe, no change would be made. I think that is the most remarkable and the most important statement that has been made here to-day, and an investigation into that is of far greater importance, in the interests of the fishing industry of British Columbia, than the question that is more immediately before us to-day. Who sent that statement, who gave that assurance, and at whose solicitation was it done? This assurance did not come like a bolt from the blue. I submit it is reasonable to say that

the cannery men in British Columbia asked for that assurance before they got it, and if that is so then I submit that there is-what shall I say a fraternity that bodes no good to the public weal between the cannery men in British Columbia and some officials in this city or elsewhere. I do not know from whom or where the assurance came. It may have come from Ottawa or from elsewhere, but wherever it comes from, it shows there is too great an association between some of the cannery men and government officials. Long before this commission was in existence we had reason to entertain this idea, and we have had reason to entertain the opinion since. If the cannery men of British Columbia feel that they have any grievance, if they feel that they have not been dealt with fairly, they had better seek redress from those who gave them the assurance they had no business to give, which assurance no right thinking government or minister should support. In other words, let them seek redress from their friends who gave them the unjustified assurance.
There is just one other matter I wish to refer to. The Minister has commented on the difference between the attitude of some hon. members from British Columbia when we were discussing last year in a more or less academic way the subject of Asiatic exclusion, always a popular thing to spread oneself on, and to-day when it came to the practical application of those principles. But I can assure the hon. minister that there is a saving element in the members from British Columbia who are truly consistent in the matter, who neither employ nor affiliate themselves with employers of Japanese. We have nothing to do with them, and poor and weak prophets though we may be, we have not bowed the knee to Baal, nor worshipped at the shrine of the Golden Calf.


Mr. W. G. McQUARRIE (New Westminster) :: 
Hewitt Bostock: Might I ask the hon member not to discuss any matter other than the motion which is before the House. The question of the salmon fisheries in British Columbia is not at issue on this motion. It would form by itself a subject of a special substantive motion. Therefore, I would ask the hon. member not to discuss that matter.
Mr. MeQLARRIE: I will endeavour not to wander, in fact I do not think I was wandering, with all due respect. What I was arguing was this: That even if there were not as

British Columbia Fisheries
many fishermen employed, this year in the British Columbia waters, it would be a good thing for the conservation of the fish, and consequently it would be a good thing for those interested in fisheries, the cannery men as well as the others.
Something has been said as to the information which the members of the Fishery Commission had in regard to the pledges made by the department, and I might say, Mr. Speaker, that I saw in the press of British Columbia some time last winter a statement that no changes would be made during the coming year. I will not contend for a moment that I was labouring under any false impression or any misapprehension as to true conditions.
I heard that this statement had been made- at least, it was stated in the press that an arrangement of that kind had been arrived at. So that I came down to Ottawa with my eyes open. I am in the same position as the hon. member for Skeena (Mr. Stork), and when we discussed our official report we did so with the information that some such statement had been made. But as far as these definite and concrete pledges are concerned, they were not before us.
Now on the other phase of the question, whether there will be this 40 per cent reduction or not, X must say that I stand by the report of the Fisheries Commission. I think the cut is justified, and I think credit is due to the minister for carrying out the recommendations of the Fisheries Commission. As far as I am concerned, ever since I came to this House-and I was in the last parliament-I have hammered away on this question of the number of Japanese employed in the British Columbia fisheries, and I must say that I appreciated the action of the government and of the minister in referring the question of the British Columbia fisheries to the standing committee on Marine and Fisheries, because that committee up to that time, so far as British Columbia fisheries were concerned, had been dead. I say that ^ the minister is entitled to credit for having given his permission to refer the matter of British Columbia fisheries to the standing committee. He is also entitled to credit for having agreed to the appointment of the sub-committee which went out to British Columbia, because if that sub-committee had not gone out there the fishing interests, and particularly the fishermen would not have been able to place their case before this parliament or before the committee. I feel that the minister is entitled to credit for having appointed that commission, and if he is now going to carry out its recommendations he should also be
[Mr. McQuarrie.3
given credit for that. The British Columbia Fisheries Commission gave everyone an opportunity to be heard. We went into all the different districts and gave every interest a fair chance. Some of the interests that were concerned did not avail themselves of that opportunity; they were inclined to pooh-pooh the commission altogether. Well, that is their fault, not ours, because as I have said everyone was given the fullest opportunity to be heard. Nobody was prevented from giving his evidence; and I will say for the chairman of the commission and the other members of it who are not of the same party as myself, that they carried out their duties in a conscientious manner and treated everyone fairly. So far as I can see they used their best judgment in coming to their conclusions, and I agree with them in the report that they have submitted, except in one particular which has been referred to. I do not wish for a moment to be placed in the position of backing up any misstatement or misrepresentation which has been made, but I do say that I stand by the report of the Fisheries Commission and am of the opinion that it should be carried out. We should make the 40 per cent cut this year, and I do not believe that the canners or anyone else will be harmed thereby. I am firmly-convinced that if we make this cut and stick to it, and make other reductions later on as conditions warrant, we shall get the fisheries back into the control of the white men and Indians as it should be. That would be better for British Columbia, I am sure, and better for the whole of Canada.


Lewis Herbert Martell: As one of the members who happen to have been honoured by appointment to the Fisheries Commission, I agree with a great deal of what has been said this afternoon. I do not, however, agree with the right hon. the leader of the Opposition (Mr. Meighen), who endeavoured to take an unfair advantage of the fact, that he had the floor. I do not presume to be a modern Pythagoras, like the leader of the Opposition, who sets up a premise of his own devising, the fruit of his own imagination, and arrives at a conclusion altogether irrespective of whether that conclusion is justified by logic or not. So far as the forty per cent reduction in Japanese licenses is concerned, I may say that during the time the commission sat in British Columbia I was probably one of the most strenuous opponents to oriental fishermen being permitted to engage in Canadian fisheries. After hearing all the evidence, however, I concluded that I was possibly too harsh in the judgment which I had previously arrived at, and when we came

British Columbia Fisheries
to draw up our conclusions, with a view to
unanimity the reduction was placed at forty per cent, although I may remark-and I do not think it is unprofessional to do so-that there were members of the commission who wished at one fell stroke to make the reduction 100 per cent. While I did not sign a minority report I was almost compelled to come to the decision that was reached by the hon. member for Nanaimo (Mr. Dickie) that in view of the lateness of the season we were probably taking the canners unaware. The canners, however, were and are well organized and they are in a fit position to look after themselves. In the light of all the evidence that subsequently came before the commission I concluded, therefore, that I could best serve the interests of the country and of the fisheries by agreeing with the majority, who decided that- it was time to have a reduction of forty per cent.
I do not believe that I am giving away any secret of the commission when I say that the idea of the majority was not only a reduction of forty per cent but that there should be such a forty per cent reduction at the outset, and a sufficient reduction from year to year looking to the total exclusion of Asiatics from the British Columbia fisheries within a period of five years. So that I think the British Columbia canners have reason to congratulate themselves that they are not faced to-day with a recommendation calling for a one hundred per cent reduction in-stanter instead of a gradual reduction with a view to the total exclusion of Asiatics from these fisheries within five years. As the report now stands, all that the commission has recommended is a reduction of forty per cent for this year. We are now functus officio so to speak; and our duties have been discharged. Had we recommended to the minister what was in the mind of the majority of the commissioners at the time of the drafting of the interim report we should now be contemplating the total exclusion of Asiatics at once or within five years. I repeat, therefore, that those British Columbia canners who employ Asiatics should congratulate themselves on the fact that they have not to contend with the extreme of what was in the mind of the commission at the time of the making of the report.
Something has been said about what some of the departmental officials stated to the British Columbia trade during the time that the commission was functioning. I have no brief whatever for the departmental officials, but I believe that they were actuated by sincere motives. We may not all agree that the De-99
partment of Marine and Fisheries is perfectly administered; but the acme of efficiency is not to be found in any branch of the service, any more than it is to be found in any department of the business world. I believe, however, that the Department of Marine and Fisheries were actuated by the very best of motives. At the time when this letter, which has been read, was given to the people we had put in an interim report. The department had no knowledge of the time when the final report would be received. There was no definitely stated time as to when we would submit that report. True enough, if we had put the country to the expense of calling the members of the commission from British Columbia and from the Maritime provinces to meet in solemn conclave in the city of Ottawa to consider the matter and then make a report, the department would have been in a position to give definite information to the trade in British Columbia as to what they could expect for the present year. But it was not deemed advisable that the commissioners should all come together in Ottawa prior to a session of parliament. Therefore a letter was written to the British Columbia canners informing them that so far as could be foreseen nothing definite would be done for the year 1923. However, pursuant to the promise made by the right hon. the leader of the government (Mr. Mackenzie King), parliament met towards the close of January of this year and the commissioners had an opportunity of coming together. They considered the evidence they had received in British Columbia, together with various matters that had been presented by the canners and others from that province in the way of telegrams, letters and memoranda. However in the light of the evidence adduced and our visit to the locus in quo we came to the conclusion that it would be in the best interests of the country that a forty per cent reduction should be made this year, and we notified the minister accordingly. After a conference with his officials and taking all the circumstances into consideration, undoubtedly the minister concluded that this reduction should be carried out this season.
To my mind the canners of British Columbia have not been in any way handicapped by the action taken. A canner must estimate what his pack is going to be for the next year so that he may be in a position to buy his tin-for his containers and all his other supplies. As a result of this forty per cent reduction of licenses to Japanese fishermen he is not restrained from getting the catch that he estimated, because he has the opportunity of employing whites and Indians to make up the



British Columbia Fisheries
deficiency. Therefore the putting into effect of this forty per cent reduction will not prevent the British Columbia canner from getting his estimated amount of fish. It is interesting to observe that on the basis of the amount of fish the Japanese caught la3t year the reduction of their licenses by forty per cent will not affect the estimated amount of any canner's business by more than ten per cent and, as I have already said, he can make up this difference by employing whites and Indians, and the consequence will be no loss to the canner and the encouragement of white fishermen.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I am not leading the government. I have been termed a radical and everything else imaginable almost, but this I know and know full well that I am a Canadian animated with the desire to see justice done to my fellow Canadians. I do not admit that I entertain all the varied views imputed to me, but I do claim to know one or two things about the fisheries in which my forebears were engaged at the place of my birth, and from my experience as an official of the Department of Marine and Fisheries for years-I believe some weeks of which were under you, Mr. Speaker-I truly claim to know at least something about the fisheries and the administration thereof in this country. On the strength of that knowledge I say, in all fairness to my colleagues who were engaged with me in the department, in all fairness to the white fishermen of this country, and in all fairness to the excellent man who is now Minister, of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Lapointe), that they have done what is right, I do not believe there is a Canadian citizen from Cape Breton to Vancouver Island who will condemn either the report of the fisheries commission or the action of the minister in putting its recommendations into effect. Therefore, before attempting to take any advantage, political or otherwise, from the report-which I believe is in the best interests of this country-any hon. member who stands up in this House and makes allegations should be seized of the facts before doing so, and not make vainglorious declamations against the action of the minister when these allegations are based upon a vivid imagination and ignorance of conditions.
My right hon. friend, the leader of the Opposition (Mr. Meighen), who is not in his seat at the moment, took advantage of the fact that he had the floor and would not permit me to ask him a c'ertain question, for undoubtedly he showed up his pretensions and instead of giving a pertinent answer, seized the opportunity to indulge in some characteristic insinuations. If he were in his place, I would tell him that though he 
possesses the title of "right honourable," and I am simply a humble hon. member, I would be glad to meet him on any platform or in any forum to discuss the rights of the fishermen of this country.
I repeat, Mr. Speaker, the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries has done right in putting into effect what the people have demanded. My hon. friends from British Columbia on both sides of the House stood in their places last year and voted for Asiatic exclusion. My colleagues and I got along most amicably together on the fisheries commission. To this commission I submit must be accorded the credit of having recommended to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, and the hon. minister must be credited therewith, the first practical step that has ever been taken by the government of Canada to make British Columbia a white country-something which the people have been fighting for for many years. Consequently when the right hon. leader of the Opposition stands in his place and tries to appease the British Columbia canners by attacking the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries for endeavouring to make that province a white country by putting into effect practical fisheries' regulations- regulations that will not only m'ake the province a better country for the white man but a better country for good fishermen to live in, I say he is doing something which is not consistent either with the best interests of British Columbia or of the Dominion generally.	*


Hon. J. H. KING (Kootenay) (Minister of Public Works):: Mr. Speaker, I am
satisfied that if my hon. friend for Burrard (Mr. Clark) and his seconder, the hon. member for South Vancouver (Mr. Ladner) had realized where this discussion would lead them they would not have precipitated it this afternoon. Personally, and as a representative from the province of British Columbia, I rather regret the course that has been followed by them, for the simple reason that I believe it is the desire of the members from my province to show a united front in regard to orientals. However, I am not going to discuss that phase of the matter.
During the discussion some fairly thin ice has been crossed. The right hon. leader of the Opposition (Mr. Meighen) stated that if the fisheries commission which was appointed to examine into the question under discussion, and who made a careful and exhaustive study of conditions last summer in the various ports of British Columbia, had known that these instructions had gone out in December from the Fisheries department they would not have

British Columbia Fisheries
brought in the recommendations which they later rendered. My hon. friend from New Westminster (Mr. McQuarrie), a member of that commission, stated that it was only known to him through the press or through channels of gossip or conversation that such instructions had gone out. Now, Sir, in order that there may be no misunderstanding in the minds of hon. members in regard to the knowledge that the commissioners had, I would read a short letter dated December 23rd, 1922. It is as follows:
Dear Mr. McQuarrie,-In view of the fact that the final report of the British Columbia Fisheries Commission, of which you are a member, will not be submitted until after the House meets, and as it is embarrassing to the whole industry to have frequent changes in the regulations and policy governing it, it has been deemed best to await the final report of the commission before reaching decisions on the recommendations contained in the interim report.
Hence those engaging in the industry have been advised that no action will be taken on the report that will affect the season of 1923. This does not involve that there will be no reduction in the number of fishery licenses that will be available to naturalized orientals. The reduction of such licenses that was decided upon last June, before the appointment of the commission, will be effective so far as next year is concerned.
This letter signed by the Acting Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Bureau) was sent to each and every member of the commission, so the commissioners in drawing their final report had knowledge of the action of the department at that date.
Now, what did the commissioners do in the face of that knowledge? In their final report to the minister they say:
The representations that have been made by the various interests concerned in the British Columbia fisheries, as well as the objections raised by certain officials of the department since the publication of the commission's interim report have been carefully considered by the commissioners before the writing of their final report. Our conclusions and recommendations as hereinafter set forth have therefore been reached and agreed upon in the full light of the said further representations.
So we have this position-and it has not been fairly represented to-day-that the commission which spent last summer investigating this problem in order that we might reach proper conclusions upon it, the fishing interests, were advised that the regulations would continue with the reduction as proposed last June, over 1923, and the commission, in the face of that, recommended to the minister that their report, involving a forty per cent reduction, should be carried out. That change in policy took place in February of this year, some three or four months before the opening of the fishing season. I do not believe there is sound ground for the complaint that is made here to-day. I do not believe this is
99J
an urgent matter or one that requires such a debate as we have had here this afternoon


Mr. GEORGE BLACK (Yukon):: Mr. Speaker, I think it must be apparent to the House that the minister has made no satisfactory explanation of his course in blowing hot and cold in this matter. No sufficient reason has been given for breaking what to all intents and purposes was understood by the canners of British Columbia as a pledge. The government's action was not businesslike; it was unfair to the canners. My conclusion is that the minister, or his department, for which he must take responsibility, was too hasty in sending out that first telegram, for which there was no necessity; too hasty in making that pledge by wire. A promise, or what can fairly be considered as a promise, was made; it could not be kept- at any rate, the government determined that it should not be kept, with the consequence that somebody has been injured. Well, that often happens, and the government must take the consequences and pay the damages if there are damages. For myself I have not much sympathy with people who make losses through the employment of orientals. I think it is better to let them take the consequences; they will probably be less likely to employ orientals in the future and will have less to do with them. I do think that the canners might very well have been put on their guard by the wording of that telegram, which was to the effect that irrespective of the findings of the commission there would be no changes in the regulations. That should have been a warning to them that the report of the commission might have the effect of bringing about a change in the regulations. It is true that the action of the minister brings about a result that is most desirable I say, to the great majority of the people of British Columbia, namely, a reduction of the employment of orientals in the industry in that province, and I am sure that no one would be more pleased with that result than the hon. member for Burrard (Mr. Clark) and the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Ladner). No one would be better pleased with that result than they, and I am sure they can congratulate themselves on the effort made by them at the last session, and particularly by the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. McQuarrie) in impressing upon this House and the government the need for action to curb oriental immigration into British Columbia. They can, I say, very well congratulate themselves upon the fact that their efforts have met with some success. But on the other hand I think that the minister

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
should acknowledge the mistake-that is, the mistake of the department-and not attemj.it to take refuge behind the popularity of the anti-oriental movement with the idea of covering up his mistake, because that quite evidently is the object of the attempt put forth by him and his supporters here to-day. But, as the right hon. leader of the Opposition, (Mr. Meighen) has said, no member is so dull ns to be misled by this old device of drawing a herring across the trail; even though we are talking about fish, no one is to be diverted by that from the point raised by this resolution. The point is that what the canners understood as a pledge was given by the minister, and for reasons which are perhaps well grounded he has seen fit not to carry out that pledge but has rather made a much more material reduction in the number of Japanese licenses. That is the point under discussion in connection with this resolution, not the question whether Japanese licenses should be reduced or abolished. For my part I support any administration that takes action to meet the oriental menace, which is in fact a real one. But as I say, no one should be misled by the putting forward of the anti-oriental question with the view of covering up the mistake made by the government in this instance.
Motion withdrawn.



CODE NAPOLEON


[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. JOSEPH ARCLIAMBAULT (Chambly-Vercheres):: Mr. Speaker, referring to Hansard of yesterday, during the discussion on the Bankruptcy Act, I find that the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Mc-Quarrie) said, as reported at page 1,587.
I thought in this country we got most of our good models of law from England; that they were always safe guides for us1 to use. Indeed, I think both my hon. friend and myself found in our practise of law that the English law is pretty good; that English cases are pretty sound; that English precedents are very reliable, and that when we follow them, we are usually on safe ground. . . .
Mr. Archambault; Has the hon. member ever heard of the Code Napoleon?
Mr. McQuarrie; The hon. gentleman sees fit to be facetious again.
Mr. Archambault: No, I am most serious. . . . Will the hon. member answer my question?
Mr. McQuarrie: He is very funny I know.
Mr. Archambault: My hon. friend does not know what the Code Napoleon is. I am glad to know that.
I fear, Mr. Speaker, I did a great injustice to the hon. member. I wish to apologize to him, because at the time I put my question I was under the impression that the hon. member was a lawyer.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


[Stage Direction]
Hon. W. S. FIELDING (Minister of Finance) moved that the House go into Committee of Supply.
Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM (Acting Minister of Railways and Canals): Mr. Speaker, before you leave the Chair I would like to ask the indulgence of the House while I present the statement annually made concerning the railway situation as it affects the government-owned lines. The subject will be very dry-nearly as dry as sock-eye salmon on land-but I wish to place this mass of figures on Hansard so that hon. members may have the opportunity of reading the statement and coming to their own conclusions.
As is generally known, the audit of the railway accounts is continuous and has been practically completed, with the exception of the signing of the balance sheet, which is expected to be reached in the course of a few days. The figures to which I am about to refer may therefore be regarded as final.
I shall have to ask the House to bear with me while I stick very closely to the documents before me. I would scarcely call this statement a speech, but rather a rehearsal ot the figures showing the condition of the Canadian National- Railways System.
Mr. MACLEAN (York):: For what fiscal year?	.


Mr. GRAHAM:: For the year ending December 31, 1922. In referring to the Canadian National Railways, members of the House will bear in mind that up till October last the entities that made up the system managed by the Canadian Northern board were designated the Canadian National Railways. I shall deal with this system first and then with the Grand Trunk.


Arthur Meighen: Is the minister not wrong in the date? Was it not up to January of this year?


George Perry Graham: No. I shall have to explain again as my hon. friend again was out.


Arthur Meighen: It was up to January 31 of this year.


George Perry Graham: The statement is up to December 31 of last year. I was referring to the birth of the Canadian National Railways by bringing into force the act of 1919 under which that company was created. First, I will give the operated mileage of the lines

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
that	now	constitute	the	Canadian National
railway system (all lines):
Canadian National Railways Operated mileage-December 31st, 1922 Canadian Government Railways-
Intercolonial Railway (including
Branch Lines	 2,283.44
National Transcontinental Railway
Eastern Lines	 1,415.74
National Transcontinental Railway Western	Lines	(including	Lake
Superior Branch)	 582.14
St. John & Quebec Railway.. ..	171.80
Hudson Bay Railway	 214.00

 4,667.12
Canadian Northern Railway System-
Canadian Northern Railway Eastern Lines (Including Halifax &
South West Ry)	 2,892.28
Canadian Northern Railway Western Lines, (Including Duluth,
Winnipeg & Pacific Ry)	 6,976.38
Niagara, St. Catharines & Toronto Ry. & Toronto Suburban Ry.
(Electric Lines)	 126.13

 9,994.79
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway.. ..	2,710.50

 2,710.50
Grand Trunk Railway System-
Grand Trunk Railway Canadian
Lines	 3,611.87
Grand Trunk Railway Western
Lines	 991.69
Grand Trunk Railway New England
Lines		172.21
4,775.77
Central Vermont Railway	 532.50

 5,308.27
22.680.68
Average Mileage Operated Canadian National Railways.. .. 17,351.43 Grand Trunk Railway System (Including Central Vermont Rly.). 5,314.08

 22,665.51
As I pointed out a moment ago, I propose first to deal with what was known as the Canadian National railway system prior to October last.
General Conditions throughout 1922
Before dealing with the income account, Canadian National Railways, a word or two concerning conditions and circumstances affecting 1922 operations might not be amiss. The gross earnings for 1922 decreased by $6,866.509.93. Freight, passenger and express earnings were all less than in 1921. The decrease in passenger traffic is a disappointment in view of the improved quality of service provided, and also in view of the fact that the rate for passenger travel in Canada is, generally speaking, slightly below the prevailing rates in the United States. A good year was expected, and provided for, but the traffic did not materialize.
While the tonnage of freight carried was slightly higher, and the average haul and train loading improved, the freight earnings fell off to the extent of $3,901,611.86, and the average rate per ton per mile-ton-mile rate -fell from 1.041 cents in 1921 to .889 cent in 1922, a decrease of 14.6 per cent.
It so happened that the improvement in traffic was largely confined to the final half of the year when reduced rates were in effect.
I am offering no opinion as to whether the improvement in traffic was due to the reduction in rates or to a good crop and consequent general improvement in business, but this much can be said: that on account of its widespread mileage in the nine provinces, the traffic movement of the Canadian National Railways is a reliable indication of the state of trade in the country as a whole.
System car loading improved in the early months of the year, and appreciably so from towards the end of April, when, until the crop commenced to move, a daily loading of from two to three hundred cars more than the previous year was maintained. During the crop movement the improvement averaged a thousand cars a day. The all-rail movement of grain, which commenced in October, three months earlier than usual, contributed to the density of freight traffic on eastern lines. It is estimated that the restoration of the Crows-nest rates on grain reduced the earnings during the last half of the year by six and a half million dollars. Notwithstanding this reduction in rates, the earnings exceeded the operating expenses in September, October and November. In each of the other nine months there was an adverse balance, the smallest deficit occurring in May and the heaviest in January, February and December.
In making the statement that the restoration of the Crowsnest pass rates reduced the earnings during the last half of the year by six and a half million dollars, that estimate, of course, is based on the assumption that had the old rates remained the traffic would have been as heavy.
Income Account
The gross operating revenue for the year was $120,135,956.71, as against $127,002,466.64 in 1921; the operating expenses $129,872,274.75 as against $143,222,802.55; leaving a net deficit from railway operation of $9,736,318.04, as compared with $16,220,335.91 for the previous year.
The addition of tax accruals-which by way, are not classed by railway accountants as real operating expenses-brings the total operating deficit for 1922 up to $11,085,081.33 as against $17,805,365.16 for 1921. Non-operat-

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
ing income-car rentals, rental of joint facilities, express, mails, elevators, etc.- amounting this year to 85,644,217.22, is offset by the usual deductions from gross income-hire of equipment, joint facilities, etc.-amounting to $4,421,180.49, leaving the total deficit before fixed charges $9,862,044.60, as compared with $16,212,063.22 in 1921.
The fixed charges amounted, in 1922, to $41,241,252.31, of which $32,711,546.22 pertain to the Canadian Northern, and $8,529,706.09 to the Grand Trunk Pacific. These fixed charges swell the total Canadian National deficit to $51,103,296.91 as compared with $56,989,978.82 in 1921.
In the statement which will be placed on Hansard, it will be seen that the 1921 figures do not entirely agree with the figures brought down a year ago. At that time, the operating results of the St. John and Quebec Railway were separately shown. As the St. John and Quebec results have been included in 1922 totals it was necessary to add in the 1921 results to make the figures comparable.
Analysis of Net Operating Deficit.
The net operating deficit was $9,736,318.04, compared with $16,220,335.91 in 1921. The net operating deficit of the Canadian Government Railways is $2,496,721.91 as against $5,714,732.90 in 1921. Of this, the Intercolonial and branch lines were reponsible for $2,302,703.36, compared with $4,457,035.75 in 1921; the Prince Edward Island District, $634,588.66 as against $617,158.93 the previous year; the Transcontinental-lines east of Armstrong- $875,233.02 as against $1,964,730.23 in 1921; Transcontinental lines-west of Armstrong and east of Winnipeg, including the Grand Trunk Pacific Lake Superior Branch-an operating surplus of $1,488,833, as against an operating surplus of $1,523,547.90 in 1921; the St. John and Quebec Railway, a deficit of $148,078.67 compared with $127,434.15 the previous year; Hudson Bay railway, $24,951.43 as against $71,921.08 in 1921. I must explain, in reference to the Hudson Bay railway, that the figures are not comparable, as the periods in the two years were not the same. A closer analysis of the figures, using the same periods, will show that the operating deficit of the Hudson Bay railway in 1921 was not $71,921 but rather about $50,000.
The Canadian Northern operating deficit was reduced from $6,475,911.14 in 1921 to $2,946,729.72 in 1922, but the operating deficit of the Grand Trunk Pacific increased from $4,029,691.87 to $4,292,866.41 during the same period.

Decreased Operating Expenses
I will now refer to the decreased operating expenses. I think I might interject that an analysis of the statement will show that the marked improvement for the year' 1922 is the result of a large decrease in the cost of operating. If hon. gentlemen have followed me closely they will have seen that the first few statements made concerning the traffic were a little pessimistic on account of decrease in earnings; but the present statement is by no means pessimistic because the management was able to reduce the expenses of operation by a greater ratio than characterized the reduction of traffic. Operating expenses decreased $13,350,527.96, and the results for the year show that the expenditures were well controlled, there being reductions in the .cost both of maintenance and of transportation. The management assure me that the condition of the physical properties was improved during the year notwithstanding that maintenance of way expenses were reduced by $2,656,340.92, and maintenance of equipment expenses by $1,225,612.86. As already pointed out, more business was moved, though $11,299,471.65 less in transportation expenses was spent to move same, in addition to the maintenance savings.
Slight reductions in pay for certain classes of employees, a decrease in the average number of employees-to be later referred to- and reduced cost of materials contributed to the improved showing, but the management feel that in the main credit should be given to greater efficiency of freight traffic, handling more, miles per car per day and a small increase in load per car mile. The cost of yard operation was also considerably reduced, measured on the basis of the number of cars handled.
Operating Ratio
What is meant by the "operating ratio" is how much money it takes to earn a dollar. Shortly, I may say that when it takes $1.05 to earn $1 there is a deficit; when the earning expenditure is one dollar or less there is no deficit. The operating ratio for the year was 108.10, as compared with 112.77 in 1921 and 129.32 in 1920. The operating ratios of the component parts of the National System were as follows:
		1922	1921
Canadian	Northern	. .. 104.85	109.37Canadian	Government	. .. 106.10	113.85Grand Trunk Pacific	. .. 123.18	124.21
The ratio of 108.10 for 1922 is divided as followsLabour 60.74, as against 65.02; fut'l 14.01, as against 16.84, and other expenditures 33.35 as against 30.91.

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Traffic Results-Steam Lines
The National lines carried 11,331,226 passengers during 1922, or 606,923 less than in 1921. the average haul per passenger was 60.84 miles, compared with 59.87 miles in the previous year, and the passenger earnings were $17,919,602.17, a decrease of $2,289,218.02 compared with 1921.
The system handled 22,426,403 tons of revenue freight, an increase of 1,164,803 tons. The average haul also increased from 423.19 miles to 449.97 miles, but the freight revenue, which was $89,726,925.51, fell off $3,901,611.86 because of lower rates.
The average earnings per traffic train mile were $3.52 which was 8 cents less than in 1921, and the operating expenses $3.82, which was 25 cents less than the previous year. The average operating revenue per mile of road was $6,885.33, which was $438.16 less than in 1921, and the average operating expense per mile of road was $7,466.23, a decrease of, $817.30. The average load per freight train increased from 482.66 tons to 548.34 tons.
Analysis of Operating Expenses
Out of each dollar spent by the National Railways on operating account during 1922, the following expenditures were made: 24.13 cents for maintenance of way and structures; 23.53 cents for maintenance of equipment; 2.23 cents for traffic expenses-soliciting, etc, -46.57 cents for rail line transportation-en-ginemen, trainmen, yardmen, station employees, etc.-1.42 cents for miscellaneous operations-dining and buffet, hotels restaurants, etc.-2.79 cents for general expenses- general offices, clerical and legal staff, etc.- and 0.67 for transportation for investment- i.e., the movement of materials entering into the property. This split of the expenditure dollar closely approximates the figures for 1921, except transportation costs, which are 3.61 cents less.
The distribution of operation expenses is shown also in another form:	labour, 56.19;
fuel-locomotive-12.96; other 30.85, total
100.
At six o'clock the House took recess.
After Recess
The House resumed at eight o'clock.


George Perry Graham: At six o'clock, Mr. Speaker, I was analyzing the operating costs. Now I shall take up the item of labour.
Labour
Out of gross earnings of $120,135,956.71, the management paid out $82,390,245.42 in wages, including betterments, about six and a half million dollars less than the 1921 total pay-roll. Operating labour cost $72,969,378.48, or almost 10 millions less than the previous year. The ratio of operating labour costs to gross earnings was 60.74 for the system, as against 65-02 in 1921, an improvement of 4-28 per cent. The average number of employees in 1922 was 58,398 compared with 60,315 in 1921, a decrease of almost two thousand.
During the first four months of the year, labour forces were lighter than in the corresponding period in the preceding year. In May, June and July maintenance forces were increased with the general object of having track and other conditions improved for the fall movement, which gave every indication of being heavy. From August to December, inclusive, substantially the same force was maintained as in 1921, although more tonnage was moved.
Locomotive Coal Purchases
Locomotive coal to the extent of 3,053,829 tons was purchased during 1922 at an average price of $5.47 and a total cost of $16,711,35522. Of this 2,198,039 tons was Canadian coal, at an average price of $4.83, or $10,621,037.57; 798,330 tons American coal, at an average price of $7.13, or $5,693,783.90 and 57,460 British coal at an average price of $6.90, or $396,533.75 In 1921 the average price of Canadian coal was $5.71 and of the American coal $6.47. During that year 2,505,389 tons of Canadian coal were purchased and 977,696 tons of American. Less coal to the extent of 429,256 tons was purchased during 1922.
Equipment
A statement showing details of equipment on hand, retirements and deliveries during the year, will be included with those to be handed ini Briefly it shows that the Canadian National system had 1951 locomotives and 87,482 cars on December 31, 1922, as against 1,973 locomotives and 88,478 cars on December 31, 1921. Also, for the information of the House, I shall put in a statement of new equipment ordered during the current year, totalling $20,250,600.85. The statement will show the number and type of equipment, the name of the builder, and the price. Unfortunately prices are still very high. For mountain type locomotives we are paying 74,500 and for the Mikado type $66,500. First-class coaches still cost $35,443,

C.N!R.-Minister's Statement
as against $16,586 in 1914., and standard sleepers $49,400, compared with $28,250 in 1915; mail cars, which could be built for $11,500 before the war, now cost $29,650; express refrigerator cars, which cost $4,642 in 1918, now cost $10,550; steel baggage cars, which cost $6,666 in 1915, cost $24,750 now; general service freight cars which cost $1,346 in 1914 and $3,250 in 1920, are now priced at $2,950; box cars which could be bought for $1,150 in 1914 and were $2,950 in 1920, are now $2,555. It is only fair to explain that car equipment purchased from 1914 to 1917, inclusive, was fitted with wooden and steel sills, and from 1918 to 1923 with steel sills and steel framing, and was also of greater capacity.
Betterments
The betterments effected during the year included the laying of 444 miles of new 85 lb. rail and 172 miles of second-hand relay rails, principally on western lines; the putting in of 5,910,014 ties and 1,030 miles of ballast; 50 new water supplies and 11 new water tanks; 432 miles of fencing and 315 sidings and siding extensions; 41 new stations and 16 station extensions; 9 new freight sheds and 9 freight-shed extensions; 64 bunkhouses and section houses; 77 other buildings, 15 coaling plants, 406 culverts, 32 bridges and 163 bridges and trestles filled. A statement of the larger betterment items will, as usual, be handed in to Hansard.
New Construction During 1922
With the exception of the Long Lac cut off no new construction was undertaken during the year, and on the cut off only preparatory work was done up to December 31 last. The late minister pointed out a year ago that in the West 'alone construction had been projected which would entail an expenditure of $25,000,000 to bring to completion, but in view of financial conditions and the impending reorganization of the National Railway Board and management, the betterment programme for 1922 would consist of finishing work in hand as far as track had been laid, leaving the new board free to advise as to further extensions. In accordance with the policy indicated, no new grading or tracklaying was undertaken during the year under review, though considerable ballasting and surfacing was completed and necessary buildings and structures erected. Details of this will be supplied, also as to the 172.3 miles of new lines in the West turned over to the operating department for permanent operation. This mileage was under operation on behalf of the construction department, with restrictions as
TMr. Graham.]
to speed, at the beginning of 1922 and was merely brought to completion during the year.
So far, Mr. Speaker, I have dealt only with the railway system known up to October last year as the Canadian National, not with that portion of it formerly known as the Grand Trunk.


Arthur Meighen: I am confused by my
hon. friend's constant use of the month of October. The figures he is giving us, as I understood him all along, were for the entire year of 1922. Is not that correct?


George Perry Graham: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: I thought my hon. friend in the last sentence before I interrupted him said the figures were up to October.


George Perry Graham: No.


Arthur Meighen: The Canadian National railway and Grand Trunk railway were run as separate roads up to the end of the year. The order in council which made them one was issued January 30, 1923.


George Perry Graham: That is right. But I was trying to explain at the beginning of my remarks the distinction between what was called the Canadian National Railway system then and now, and I pointed out that the Canadian National Board had been brought into existence in October last by order in council. In other words there was no Canadian National Railway until October last.


Arthur Meighen: That is merely a name.


George Perry Graham: Certainly; but until
October last there was not really any Canadian National Board; it was the Canadian Northern Board.



THE GRAND TRUNK

[Stage Direction]
Now let me take up the Grand Trunk. To one who, like myself, has lived along the old Grand Trunk nearly all his lifetime the passing of this road from its original status even to become part of our national system is somewhat of a tragedy. We who have known the Grand Trunk so well since our boyhood almost reverence the old line. Of course, now that it has become part of our national system of railways I think I may be allowed to express the view that, given a fair opportunity, it will prove a splendid asset to the Dominion.
The Grand Trunk experienced in a general way the same difficulties as the Canadian National, though it did not come within the

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
influence of the Crowsnest reduction. It carried fewer passengers, with consequent loss in revenue, and while freight tonnage and freight earnings increased somewhat, the average revenue per ton per mile was 4 per cent less than the previous year. This was stated to be owing to the reductions in Canadian freight rates effective December 1st, 1921, and August 1st, 1922; also to reductions in United States and International freight rates effective January 1st and July 1st, 1922. The system carried 940,000 fewer tons of coal and coke for reasons which are well known; but loss tonnage was more than offset by increases in general commodities, the most prominent of which were lumber* and forest products, including wood pulp, building materials, motor cars, flour and iron and steel products. The decrease of $1,668,459.55 in passenger revenue, while contributed to by 1,124,181 fewer passengers, was in part due to a reduction in International fares at the beginning of the year. There was also a slight falling off in express earnings.
a decrease of $6,523,751.12. The net deficit was apportioned as follows:
Canadian lines.. . Western lines.. .. New England lines. Central Vermont..
[Stage Direction]
$7,386,170 9? 4,797,177 55 1,881,093 84 1,607,299 34
Total	$9,148,548 22	$15,672,299 34
Allocation of Net Deficit The net deficit of 89,148,548.22 just referred to was distributed as follows:
Grand Trunk Canadian lines	 $5,620,814 37
Ottawa Terminals Railway	 113,769 09
Canada Atlantic Transit Company	 82,454 25
St. Clair Tunnel Company	 231,852 26
Toronto Terminals Railway	 203 091 48
Terminal Warehouse Reg	(Cr.)	250.000	00Canadian Express Company.. ..	..	..(Cr.)	266,594	97Grand Trunk Western Lines	
1,277,747 20Grand Trunk New England Lines.. ..	1,398,600	35Central Vermont Railway	736,814	19Total deficit	$9,148,548 22
The comparison with 1921 figures is shown in the statement of detail.
Grand Trunk Traffic
Income Account
In 1921 the Grand Trunk Canadian lines were the only part of the system to end the year with a net revenue from operation. In 1922 the New England lines were the only line to show an operating deficit, and that was only $57,090.48, compared with $681,490.29 the previous year. Last year the Canadian lines increased their operating net revenue from $5,678,739.47 to $7,382,205.78; the western lines turned a deficit of $447,925.11 into an operating net of $5,498,226.20, and the Centra! Vermont similarly converted a deficit of $176,806.42 into an operating net of $1,106,525.57.
The operating revenues, all lines, were $113,975,133.30 last year as against $109,097,557.58 in 1921; the operating expenses $100,045,266.23 as compared with $104,725,039.93 the previous year.
After deducting taxes, hire of equipment, joint facility rents, etc., expenditures which affect the western lines somewhat heavily, income other than from operation brought the net income before fixed charges up to $12,064,827.42..
At this stage the Central Vermont joined the New England lines in the deficit column Fixed charges amount to $21,213,375.64. Of this sum $4,745,762.61 is due the government and $16,467,613.03 payable to others. Taking into consideration these fixed charges the Grand Trunk net deficit, all lines, was $9,148,548.22, as compared with $15,672,299.34 in 1921,
The operating revenue of the Grand Trunk system was $106,348,507.11, an increase of $4,386,702.59. Of this amount $17,566,692.55 was on passenger account, a falling off of $1,668,459.55. Freight revenue was $79,716,164.68, an increase of $5,712,983.97; other revenue-mail,	express,	etc.-$9,065,649.88
showed a slight increase.
Operating expenses were $93,525,165.61, a decrease of $3,887,314.84. This decrease was common to maintenance of way and structures, transportation, miscellaneous, and general offices. Maintenance of equipment cost more than in 1921, as also did the traffic department.
Operating ratio was 87.94 per cent as compared with 95.53 in 1921.
Tons of freight carried were 29,942,949, an increase of 2,688,163, though the average ton mile revenue fell off 4 per cent. Passengers carried numbered 12,401,927, a decrease of 1,124,181. There was a decrease of 5 per cent also in the average revenue per passenger mile. An explanation of these decreases in revenue has already been given and the customary detailed and comparative figures will be brought down, also those in connection with the Central Vermont, which do not form part of the Grand Trunk system figures just referred to.
Separately Operated Companies A number of separately operated subsidiary companies are controlled by the Grand Trunk, the net surplus of which is not taken into the Grand Trunk income statement. These include the Chicago, New York and Boston Refrigerator Company, International Bridge
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Company, Montreal Warehousing Company, Limited, Terminal Warehousing Company, Limited, Oshawa Railway, Rail and River Coal Company, Thousand Islands Railway, Mont' real and Southern Counties Railway and the Central Vermont Transportation Company.
The net income of separately operated companies was $712,123.24, as against $381,439.05 in 1921. These separately operated companies paid to the Grand Trunk in dividends in \	1922, $576,300 compared with $127,000 in 1921,
and the undistributed surplus at December 31st last was $151,671.16 against $40,429.07 at the end of 1921. Detailed results of the operation of each of these companies will be included in statement form.
Employees and Compensation The average number of employees Grand Trunk system was 38,359 in 1922, compared with 39,234 in 1921, and corresponding figures for Central Vermont were 2,763 and 2,859. The average wage, Grand Trunk, was $1,507.96 and Central Vermont $1,566.91, a decrease of 5.49 per cent and 1.93 per cent respectively. The pay-roll expense of the Grand Trunk was $54,016,242.75, or 57.76 per cent of the total operating expense. The payroll of the Central Vermont was $4,109,420.19, or 63.03 per cent of the total operating expense. The ratio of pay-roll to operating expense decreased 2.83 per cent in the case of the Grand Trunk, but increased 6.81 per cent in the case of the Central Vermont.
Of each dollar spent by the Grand Trunk 571 cents went in wages, 15i cents in fuel for locomotives and 26f cents in other operating expenses. The Central Vermont figures were 63, 18J and 18J cents respectively.
Equipment, Grand Trunk-All Lines A statement showing details of equipment of the Grand Trunk, including the Central Vermont, will be included with other tabulated information. It shows that at the end of the year these lines had 1,495 locomotives, 1,208 passenger service cars, 46,188 freight service cars, 2,537 company service cars and 3 car ferries. The corresponding figures at the end of 1921 were, 1,498, 1,210, 47,321, 2,555 and 3.
Coal
Locomotive coal purchased from all sources in 1922 amounted to 2,565,723 tons and cost on the average $6.50 a ton or a total of $16,685,813.03. Of this coal 2,157,134 tons was American at an average price of $6.56; 348,696 Canadian at $5.81 and 59,893 tons English and Scotch coal at $8.59.
Additions and Betterments Additions and betterments, Grand Trunk, all lines, were made in 1922 at a total cost 
of $4,403,837.23. Of this amount, $1,598,651.30 was spent on equipment, and $1,277,822.43 on rails and various track material. The spread of this betterment expenditure will be brought down in detail.
CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS-FINANCE Consolidated Income Figures
The gross operating revenue of all roads now comprising the Canadian National lines was $234,111,090.01 compared with $236,100,024.22 in 1921. The operating expenses were $229,917,540.98, compared with $247,947,842.48, and the net revenue from railway operations $4,193,549.03 as against an operating deficit of $11,847,818.26 in 1921.
From the net revenue from operation, all lines, of $4,193,549.03, tax accruals amounting to $4,095,677.45 must be deducted, leaving the total operating income $97,871.58. The corresponding figure for 1921 was a deficit of $16,082,792.51.
To the total operating income of $97,871.58 must be added non-operating income such as rentals, express, mails, elevators, etc., which amounted to $15,752,496.48, but from which must be deducted our own hire of equipment and joint facilities charges, etc., which amounted to $13,647,585.24, making the total revenue, before fixed charges, $2,202,782.82, as against a deficit of $12,638,778.88 in 1921.
Next, the fixed charges must be considered. The fixed charges due the government increased from $19,569,989.79 to $24,649,513.45; those due the public decreased from $40,453,509.49 to $37,805,114.50, leaving the net increase in fixed charges $2,431,128.67.
Taking these fixed charges into account, the total deficit for 1922 amounted to $60,251,845.13 as compared with $72,662,278.16 last year, an improvement of $12,410,433,03.
Memorandum re Financing done during the Year 1922
During the year, an issue of $11,000,000. Canadian Northern Railway Company 5 per cent Three Year Notes, guaranteed by the Dominion government, was disposed of at 99 03 per cent. The proceeds, together with accrued interest and New York exchange amounting to $10,953,290.52, were used to retire maturing obligations, as follows: $5,651,000 Canadian Northern Railway 6 per cent 2J-Year Collateral Trust Notes which matured on February 1st, 1922; $4,601,789.76 to purchase sterling exchange to retire $5,109,026.67, Canadian Northern Railway 5 per cent Dominion Guranteed Series "C" Notes, which matured in London on April 5, 1922. The balance of $700,500.76 was applied in reduc-

C.Vif.-Minister's Statement
tion of the loan made by the Dominion government under authority of War Measures Act and order in council dated July 5, 1918. The saving in exchange covering the retiring of the securities in London, amounted to $507,236.91.
On June 1,	1911, $1,250,000 Canadian
Northern Railway 5J per cent Three Year Secured Notes, maturing at Toronto on that date, were retired from an advance from the Dominion government, provided for in the Appropriations.
$6,000,000 Canadian Northern Railway 5J per cent Three Year Notes were paid off on December 1st, 1922, from an advance made by the Dominion government.
On December 1st, 1922, $7,099,493.34 Canadian Northern Railway 5 per cent Land Mortgage Debentures held by the public, were called for redemption in London, England. It was thought advisable to redeem these securities on that date rather than wait until the date of maturity, namely, June 1st, 1923, in view of the rising Sterling Exchange rates. This step has been justified, as the exchange rate on December 1st was $4.52, whereas to-day the rate is approximately $4.80. The funds necessary to retire these securities were advanced by the Dominion government. If the exchange rate reaches par by June 1st, 1923, which is quite probable, then the saving in exchange that will be effected by having retired the above securities on December 1st, 1922, would amount to $505,717.34.
Advances by the Government
Advances during 1922 to the Canadian Northern amounted to $49,826,881.29, making a grand total of $298,799,591.72 to December 31, 1922, on which, to the same date, interest amounting to $51,233,156.66 had accrued.
The advances during the year were utilized as follows: construction and betterments, $13,251,014.30; equipment, $719,046.85; repayment of loans and equipment trust obligations $19,254,893.33, operating deficit, $4,344,418.27; fixed charges, $12,257,508.54.
Advances during 1922 to the Grand Trunk Pacific were $9,813,640.23, and the total advances to December 31, 1922, amounted to $90,538,034.75. Last year advances were distributed as follows: construction and betterments, $2,991,387.24; operating deficits, $4,552,021.98; fixed charges, $2,270,231.01. Total accrued interest to December 31, 1922, amounted to $20,924,521.32.
On Grand Trunk account, there was advanced during 1922, $10,858,188,18, bringing the total up to $84,560,342.60 to December 31 last. The advances during the year were
absorbed as follows: construction and betterments, $3,142,680.96; repayment of loans and equipment trust obligations, $2,487,778.44; operating deficit, $3,272,385.22; fixed charges, $1,955,343.56. The total of accrued interest to December 31, 1922, was $7,967,405.29.
In addition to the above, the government advanced to the Canadian Government Railways during 1922, $7,056,887.55, divided as follows: capital expenditure, $4,151,961.77; operating deficits, $2,904,925.78.
Fixed Charges
The total fixed charges, including Grand Trunk and Central Vermont, were $62,454,627.95, compared with $60,023,499.28 in 1921.
The fixed charges of the Canadian Northern system show a net increase of $1,891,630.44, made up of a decrease of $880,533.25, in interest due the public and an increase of $2,572.163.69 in interest due the government.
The decrease in interest due the public was occasioned by the fact that retirements during the year exceeded the increases, which latter were mostly due to interest charges running the full year in 1922, as compared with part only of the previous year. The increase in interest due the government reflects the advances made during 1922, and the full year interest on the advances made at various times during the previous year.
Grand Trunk Pacific interest charges are shown as $1,428,293.73 less than in 1921, largely because of the fact that interest on the Grand Trunk Pacific 4 per cent debentures, $1,395,170.12, concerning which there has been more or less discussion, is no longer shown as a fixed charge, it not being considered a liability unless earned. G.T.P. interest due the government increased $869,018.02. There are also some inter-company adjustments, details of which will be shown in the comparative statement.
The Grand Trunk fixed charges increased $1,967,791.98, of which $6,506.52 was "Central Vermont. A full year's interest on sinking fund 6 per cent Gold Debenture Bonds issued September 26, 1921, accounts for $1,108,333.33, and on government loans $1,638,341.95, the latter due chiefly to the 1921-22 advances running for the full year instead of only part of the year, as in 1921. On the other hand, there were decreases, the chief of which was an item of $657,000.00, due to the retirement in 1921 of 3-year 6 per cent secured notes. Details of all these interest charges are being brought down.
This is a fairly complete statement, I submit, of what has taken place during the year 1922, and I think that under the conditions existing in the Dominion of Canada, and
[Stage Direction]
C.N.B.-Minister's Statement
which exist elsewhere, perhaps all over the world, in a more aggravated degree, the better showing of our Canadian National lines at the end of 1922 is very encouraging to the people of Canada who believe that eventually a public-owned railway can be made a success in this country. The problem is not easy to work out, but if we give it a fair show I think it will work itself out. Notwithstanding the reduction in rates from the West owing to the restoration of the Crowsnest pass agreement, which represents a reduction of over six million dollars, the improvement shown is very encouraging, and when amalgamation is fully completed and traffic is carried by the lines that can carry it most advantageously, when the operation of the two great systems becomes dovetailed and friction ceases, it is reasonable to suppose that there will be a betterment in conditions.
May I interject another word? Notwithstanding the fact that psychologically some of us seem to be hard up, the improved condition of this great highway that carries the people's products reflects, I think, the improved condition of the people generally throughout the Dominion of Canada, because * it is a generally conceded fact that the condition in which the transportation companies of a country find themselves is a reflection of the condition in which the people of that country find themselves.

[Stage Direction]
Now, as to next year you have all heard, no doubt, the story that our late lamented friend, Mahlon Cowan, once a brilliant member of this House, told us. In one of his election campaigns he went to see a coloured gentleman to whom he had been very kind and asked him for his support-as is usual, they tell me, when candidates are canvassing. His friend was a little reluctant to make him any pledge and he said to him "You remember, don't you Sam, that a week ago I got out of bed and went down and got you out of gaol?" "Oh, yes, I remember that." "Well, can't you give me your support after all that?" "Well, I will tell you. 'Liza and I have been talkin it over, and it's not what you have done but it is what, you is goin' to do that is goin' to influence us." In making an estimate for next year, of course, we are going to base that estimate on the view that conditions in Canada are likely to continue to improve, and while that is not unduly optimistic I think it is on the safe side.
The amount to be voted on account of the railways for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1924, is $73,189,015, as compared with $97,220,000 last year.

Four relatively small items, amounting to $189,015, relate to transactions under the direct control of the department, so that the amount required on railway account is represented by the loan of $73,000,000 asked for on Canadian National Railway Company account.
The following is a comparison of the several items which went to make up the estimate last year and this:
Provided
Description	1922-23
Operating Deficits	$21,123,827	62
Interest due to Public.. 33,571,438 19 Interest due the Gov't and the Grand Trunk. 1,133,536 40 Refunding and Sinking
Funds	 11,129,910	92
Additions and 'Betterments 30,261,286 87
Provided 1923-24 $10,050,000 00 21,687,723 94
1,133,538.40
8,184,699 33 32,133,055 33
Total
William Findlay Maclean: What are the capital expenditures for which you are providing interest?


George Perry Graham: For next year?


William Findlay Maclean: No, the capital expenditures for which the interest which the minister has mentioned in the statement just given is required?


George Perry Graham: I would have to figure
that out; I have not got those figures at the moment. What I have just given is the interest due to the public. I have given the interest and it will be easy to figure out the principal.


Arthur Meighen: Do the figures my hon. friend has given apply to the Canadian National Railways?


George Perry Graham: They apply to the entire system.
As already alluded to in the reference to the year's financing, it was regarded as good business to retire certain securities on December 1 last, which was optional, instead of waiting until redemption was obligatory during the present year. The government advanced the money and a saving in exchange amounting to more than half a million dollars resulted. The supplementary estimates of the current fiscal year contain an item of $13,099,493.34 to cover these retirements.



SIR HENRY THORNTON ON REORGANIZATION

[Stage Direction]
I asked the president of the Canadian National Railways to give me a synopsis of what had been accomplished in the matter of reorganization, and he has furnished me with the following statement:
The present management took charge of the property about December first, 1922, at a session of the year

C.X.R.-Minister's Statement
when inspections, examinations and progress were difficult on account of winter conditions.
Obviously, the first effort of the management was to make as complete an inspection of the property as weather conditions would permit, in as short a time as possible, and to become acquainted with the officers and employees on the various constituent parts of the National Railway system. In addition to this, traffic conditions and problems had to be examined, as all of these were essential factors in the determination of the organization which would be necessary to operate the consolidated system.
There were three primary problems which demanded immediate attention:
1.	The determination of the kind of an organization which was to be employed in the administration of the property.
2.	The determination of the regions into which the property was to be divided for operating purposes, and the location of regional and general headquarters.
3.	The selection of officers for the various posts involved in the organization.
The study and successful solution of these three questions naturally involved examination of the property itself; the country, its productivity; the movement of traffic and the rates charged thereon; the principal lines of future commercial and agricultural development ; coupled with a general study of the economic condition of the Dominion. Perhaps the most important and difficult problem was to assess the value of officers for prospective posts, with a view to getting the right man in the right place.
The organization which has been decided upon is what may be called a strengthened divisional organization as distinguished from a departmental organization. The executive officers consist of a chairman and president, assisted by five vice-presidents as under:
1.	Vice-president in charge of operation, maintenance and construction.
2.	Vice-president in charge of financial affairs.-
3.	Vice-president in charge of insurance, immigration, development, lands, express and telegraphs.
4.	Vice-president in charge of legal affairs.
5.	Vice-president in charge of traffic.
The above executive officers represent the minimum with which, in my judgment, it would be possible to operate such a property as the Canadian National Railways; indeed, as time goes on and traffic increases, it will probably be necessary to add another vicepresident. The list above given, however, represents a considerable economy as compared with the executive officers of the old national system and the Grand Trunk Railway. Those properties had in the aggregate one chairman, two presidents, and eleven vice-presidents, with a complete staff of officers for each. There is now one chairman and president, and five vice-presidents. The actual saving in salaries of vice-presidents and their immediate office forces should be at least $150,000 a year.
It is not possible at the moment to say exactly what the total savings in the salary list will be, as the organization has been barely completed and the officers have hardly fettled into their places, and consequently the exact number of clerks and subordinates in each department has not been finally fixed; but one would be quite safe in saying that a material saving will be accomplished, and a much more efficient administrative machine provided. Most of the announcements made with respect to officers represent either a rearrangement of duties and responsibilities or the confirmation of positions which already existed. In only one or two cases have entirely new positions been created; and the net result will undoubtedly be the employment of a smaller administrative class.
The railway has been divided into three regions for operating purposes, and this feature has been so exhaustively discussed before that comment is now unnecessary. Suffice it to say that the principle followed was to give to each operating region as much autonomy and local control in the actual operation of the property as was consistent with efficient principles of administration. Every effort will be made to confine the functions of the vice-presidents and the executive officers to policies, leaving to general managers, general superintendents and superintendents the responsibility of carrying out details. In the administration of such a large property as is represented by the Canadian National Railways no other theory of organization can be successful.
Various aspects of the operation of the national system are being studied with a view to reducing expenses as rapidly as possible. For example, it has been found that the railway could advantageously do its own insuring, and this has been decided upon. It is anticipated that from this item alone there will be a saving which will approximate half a million dollars a year.
It is the intention of the present administration to apply itself as diligently as possible to the creation of new traffics and the movement of those traffics and existing traffics with a constantly increasing economy. A system of statistics is under development which will, it is hoped, enable the maximum of use to be made of engine power. An examination of timekeeping methods is under way. in order to ensure that every employee is paid all that is coming to him, but no more. New methods of storekeeping, and the custody of materials, are being developed, in order that purchases may be reduced to a minimum; and in various ways the organization is preparing to bring each department and function of the railway to as high a degree of efficiency as modem scientific knowledge will permit.
In the organization of such a property, where we employ about one hundred thousand people, scattered over nearly 23,000 miles of line, the process of consolidating and harmonizing the various forces is one which will necessarily take some time. It is, therefore, earnestly hoped that those who administer the affairs of the nation will be sufficiently patient to give those who are sincerely, honestly and conscientiously working at this problem an opportunity to show what can be accomplished before criticisms are made.
That is a statement by the president, Sir, Henry Thornton.

[Stage Direction]
Then I take up the matter of insurance. The Canadian National Railways, with the full approval, I think, of the government, has decided to carry its own insurance. I might add that their Canadian Government Merchant Marine will be in the same class. The insurance on these two great. properties will amount roughly speaking, to $400,000,000. That is a good insurance business in itself. I would be delighted to be president of an insurance company that would net me approximately $400,000,000 worth of business, with the gilt-edged premium handed me every year. I would not need to do anything else or to get any more business. My renewals would keep me the rest of my time quite comfortably, and I would be able to leave something for my family. If an insurance company can do that, we believe the Canadian National Railway, with the government behind it-because we, the people, are the shareholders-can
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
carry its own insurance and make quite a saving. The insurance will not be let run wild or the risks go unprovided for. Each year when the premiums would naturally fall due, the amount of these premiums would be placed in a reserve fund for insurance purposes. Already I think the Grand Trunk has an insurance fund accumulation and I believe I am safe in saying that we have, in the several railway fire insurance funds, a rest fund of 12,000,000 with which we start. A good many policies come due on the 31st March, and in two or three weeks from now we will have substantially increased that reserve fund. Some figures have been given me which I
9 p.m. will give to the House, to be sure that I am accurate in my reference to them. But let me say that at first blush it might seem to be quite a radical policy. Well, radical policies are all right, unless they are too radical, but if during the last ten years these roads-I am speaking only of the railroads-had insured themselves, they would have saved 87,000,000 and replaced all the destroyed property. When I had the honour of being Minister of Railways in Sir Wilfrid's government, the government of course carried its own insurance. At my suggestion we established an insurance fund, not large, of course, but each year we put aside a certain amount for insurance purposes, and that fund paid all the fire losses, and had quite a substantial surplus at the end of three or four years' time.
I would like to amplify the president's reference to the change in insurance methods. The only railway property on which insurance has not been carried either by the underwriters or by means of railway insurance funds is that comprising the original group of Canadian Government Railways where the risk, about 50 millions, has been carried by the government. On the other railways, the Canadian Northern and Grand Trunk groups, the insurance carried has totalled $279,425,999 and on the marine-railway as well as Canadian Government Merchant Marine-$47,620,562, a grand total of $327,046,561, on which the total annual premium or fund contribution has been $2,637,800. Had the government lines been insured-that is the Intercolonial, the Transcontinental and the Prince Edward Island railway-the premiums or fund contributions would have totalled $2,837,800. The total losses during 1922 amounted to $1,144,279, or forty per cent of that amount. Thus, on the basis of complete insurance, the premiums would have exceeded last year's losses by $1,693,521.

The insurance records have been examined for 10 years back, and they show that our average losses over that period have been a little under seventy per cent, so that over a ten year period the saving, under the method proposed, would have been thirty per cent. Should that record be maintained, the management have every reason to expect a saving of between $750,000 and $1,000,000 a year.
In this connection I might be permitted to say that hon. members will notice on the order paper a resolution indicative of legislation to be asked in order to cover certain points in reference to the insurance. As to mortgages, we all understand that if we have a mortgage on our house we have to keep the house insured, in order to protect the individual or the company which advances the money. This is particularly the case with the rolling stock, the buildings, etc., on the railway lines. Where these have been mortgaged, they have been mortgaged under the pledge that certain insurance would be carried on the property, in order to protect the lender. In this legislation which I referred to a moment ago, all we are asked to do is that, in lieu of this insurance in a company which is supposed to have a full guarantee of stability behind it, the government will step in and guarantee that the insurance will be paid in case of the destruction of the property. In other words, the government, in regard to these loans or these mortgages held on the property, takes the place of the company and that will be perfectly satisfactory to the lenders or to the holders of security.
Hon. members will want to know now, what about constructing branch railways. Well, the completion of branch lines already started, as well as the construction of others, has been held up by the war and by financial stringency since the war. Nothing will be found in the estimates for new construction during the coming year, but I might say, in palliation of that offence, that it is the intention of the government to submit to the House a little later on, in the way of legislation, a programme for construction extending over a term of years. That will be decided by parliament after discussion, and the public will know just what the government proposes to try to do, aided by parliament, during the next three years, in the way of construction. It will not mean that parliament will be tied down to that programme of construction, but .it will be a guarantee to the public of what parliament intends to do along that line. That legislation will be brought down in due course after consideration. I know that it

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
will have the sympathy and the full consideration of the House. I might say, in that connection, that there is on the statute books at the present time what is called the Branch Lines Act-I do not know whether that is the proper title-under which not a few branch lines have been taken over by the federal government. While I believe we must be economical and keep as close in our expenditure as possible; nevertheless, we cannot blind our eyes to the other side of the picture. If the members of this parliament on both sides of the House, including the government, do not take somewhat of an optimistic view of the future of Canada, then we cannot expect the people of Canada, or the people of any other country, to believe in Canada.
While, I say, we must be as economical as possible, still there is a point beyond which economy becomes extravagance; and I believe that the programme which we hope to bring down will appeal to the members of the House. I believe it will be seen that it is not for the purpose of making extravagant expenditures but of carrying out the ideas expressed so often in this House in regard to making the people of this country more contented; for I admit that a contented settler is the best advertisement that any country can have.
As I say, we have the Branch Lines Act. Now, it may be necessary, as it has been in years past, to build short lines that will not pay. I am not prophesying, but I say that we may have to build lines that will not be profitable. And that is where a government differs somewhat from the private company. The government finds its own people have moved into a new district; or perhaps in an older part of the country they may find a railway aided by both governments and by the municipality but not properly operated. The railway itself is properly constructed, but the company has perhaps been taking everything out and putting nothing in, so that the road might just as well not be operated at all in some instances. I leave it to the consideration of the House whether, under these circumstances, it is not the duty of the government to go to the aid of people in some cases even if we know that the undertaking will not pay in dollars and cents just at the present time.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I realize that it has been a long and dreary task for hon. members to listen to the statement I have submitted. The figures I have given this afternoon and evening are merely a synopsis of tabulated information which should be immediately made available in complete form for the members of the House. I would therefore request the permission of the House to hand to Hansard a copy of certain statements which it is impossible to read in full and which cannot appear unless taken as read. So that the whole situation concerning the Canadian National Railways will be before hon. members in Hansard for their consideration, and they can compare the explanations I have given with the detailed statements which they will find therein.
The tabulated statements referred to by Mr. Graham are as follows:
[Stage Direction]
CN.R.-Minister's Statement

[Stage Direction]
Schedule "A"-
(1)	Income account, Canadian National Railways, exclusive of Grand Trunk;
(2)	Income account, Grand Trunk Railway System, including Central Vermont;
(3)	Combined income account, Canadian National Railway, all lines.
Schedule "B"-Operating results, by months, for the year 1922-
(1)	Canadian National Rail-ways;
(2)	Grand Trunk Railway System;
(3)	Central Vermont Railway.
Schedule "C"-
(1)	Comparative statement of operating deficits for Canadian National Railways;
(2)	Comparative statement of net deficits, Grand Trunk Railway System, including Central Vermont.
Schedule "D"

Results of operation by Grand Trunk and Central Vermont Railways o.r separately operated companies.
Schedule "E"-Summary of fixed charges-
(1)	Canadian Northern Railway;
(2)	Grand Trunk Pacific Railway; _	_(3)	Grand Trunk Railway System, including C.V.	.	.	.
Schedule "Fm

Total advances by Dominion Government to December 31, 1922, and distribution of
same by Canadian Northern Railway, Grand Trunk Pacific Railw'ay and Grand Trunk Railway System.
Schedule "G"-Summary of operating results-
(1)	Comparative statement of traffic, Canadian National_ Railway, steam lines;	[DOT]
(2)	Comparative statement of operating results and detailed statistical information, Grand Trunk
Railway System;	. .	, . ,	_	.	. T7
(3)	Comparative statement of operating results and detailed statistical information, Central Vermont
(4)	^Distribution of operating revenues and operating expenses, Grand Trunk Railway System, including
[Stage Direction]
Schedule "H"-Canadian National Railways-
(1)	Statement of operating revenue paid in labour;
(2)	Ratio of expenses to gross earnings;
(3)	Distribution of operating expenses;	.	, ,,
(4)	Grand Trunk and C.V. Railways; disbursal of expenditure dollar and disbursal of revenue dollar.
Schedule "I"-Train mileage-
(1)	Canadian National Railways;
(2)	Grand Trunk, including C.V. Railways.
Schedule ".)"-Equipment statements-
(1)	Canadian National Railways;
(2)	Grand Trunk Railway, including C.V.;
(3)	New equipment ordered to date, 1923.
Appendix "K"-Revenue tonnage by commodities, Grand Trunk System and C.\ .Appendix "L"-Grand Trunk Railway System, including C.V.-
(1)	Operated road mileage;
(2)	Summary of additions and betterments during 1922.
Appendix "M"-Canadian National Railways-
(1)	Details of betterments effected during 1922;	_
(2)	Statement of work done on construction of new lines during 1922.
Note: Italicized figures mean deficit, credit, or decrease in all cases.
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "A" (1)
CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS Income Account
Years ending December St, 1922 and 1921
	1922	1921
Gross Operating Revenue	$ cts. 60,679,033 37 40,939,945 76 18,516,977 58	$ cts. 69,088,474 16 41,275,314 84 16,638,677 64
		
		
		
	120,135,956 71	127,002,466 64
Operating Expenses		
	63,625,763 09 43,436,667 67 22,809,843 99	75,564,385 30 46,990,047 74 20,668,369 51
		
		
		
	129,872,274 75	143,222,802 55
Net Deficit from Railway Operations		
	2,946,729 72 2,496,721 91 4,292,866 41	6,475,911 14 5,714,732 90 4,029,691 87
		
		
		
	9,736,318 04	16,220,335 91
Tax Accruals		
	1,077,433 16 23,426 91 247,903 22	1,191,890 84 35,743 87 357,394 54
		
		
		
	1,348,763 29	1,585,029 25
Total Operating Deficit		
	4,024,162 88 2,520,148 82 4,540,769 63	7,667,801 98 5,750,476 77 4,387,086 41
		
		
		
	11,085,081 33	17,805,365 16
Non-operating Income		
	3,777,512 86 1,074,548 74 792,155 62	3,119,349 72 679,577 30 863,185 83
		
		
Deductions from Gross Income		
	5,644,217 22	4,662,112 85
	1,352,376 43 1,465,057 85 1,603,746 21	1,011,242 14 1,255,901 00 801,667 77
		
		
		
	4,421,180 49	3,068,810 91
Total Deficit before Fixed Charges		
	1,599,026 45 2,910,657 93 5,352,360 22	5,559,694 40 6,326,800 47 4,325,568 35
		
		
		
	9,862,044 60	16,212,063,22
		
[Stage Direction]


C'.iVJJ.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "A" (1)-Concluded.
	1922	1921
Fixed Charges Canadian Northern Railway System- Interest due public		$ cts. 16,915,174 26 15,796,371 96	$ cts. 17,595,707 51 13,224,208 27
Interest due Government			
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway- Interest due public	'...		
	32,711,546 22	30,819,915 78
	2,341,266 96 2,200,131 75 1,907,247 13 2,081,060 25	3,977,447 36 1,535,474 22 1,702,886 64 2,742,191 60
Interest due Government			
Interest on Receiver's Certificates			
Interest due Grand Trunk Railway			
Canadian National Railways			
	8,529,706 09	9,957,999 82
	41,241,252 31	40,777,915 60
Total Deficit Canadian Northern Railway System			
	34,310,572 67 2,910,657 93 13,882,066 31	36,379,610 18 6,326,800 47 14,283,568 17
Canadian Government Railways			
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway			
Canadian National Railways			
	51,103,296 91	56,989,978 82
		
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Minister's		Statement
Schedule "A" (2)		
GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY SYSTEM (INCLUDING CENTRAL VERMONT RAILWAY)		
Income Account		
Results of Operations-Years 1922 and 1921		
	1922	1921
Railway Operating Revenues-		
Canadian Lines	77,700,019 23	76,858,032 27W estern Lines	25,525,304 9S	22,193,256 82New England Lines	3,123,182 9C	2,910,515 43Central Vermont..	7,626,626 19	7,135,753 06113,975,133 30	109,097,557 58Railway Operating Expenses-	Canadian Lines	70,317,813 45	71,179,292 80'Western Lines	20,027,078 78	22,641,181 93New England Lines	3,180,273 38	3,592,005 72Central Vermont	
[DOT]	6,520,100 62	7,312^559 48100,045,266 23	104,725,039 93Canadian Lines	7,382,205 78	5,678,739 47Western Lines	5,498,226 20	Def. 447,925 11New England Lines	Def. 57,090 48	Def. 681,490 29Central Vermont	1,106,525 57	Def. 176^806 4213,929,867 07	4,372,517 65Taxes, uncollectible Railway Revenues, Hire of Equipment and	Joint Facility Rents-Net-	Canadian Lines	Cr. 1,883,645 51	Cr. 1,149,574 46Western Lines	Dr. 4,472,129 58	Dr. 3,640,721 22New England Lines	Dr. 895,340 50	Dr. 673,594 82Central Vermont	Dr. 705,749 57	Dr. 469,122 45Dr. 4,189,574 14	Dr. 3,633,864 03Net Operating Income or Loss-	Canadian Lines	9,265,851 29	6,828,313 93W estern Lines	1,026,096 62	Def. 4,088,646 33New' England Lines	Def. 952,430 98	Def. 1,355,085 11Central Vermont	400,776 00	Def. 645,928 879,740,292 93	738,653 62Difference-Increase	Other Income Net-	Canadian Lines	Cr. 3,516,652 19	Cr. 2,278,129 80Western Lines	Dr. 290,734 94	Cr. 1,368,567 48New England Lines	Dr. 446,169 37	Dr. 526,008 73Central Vermont	Dr. 455,213 39	Dr. 286,057 83Cr. 2,324,534 49	Cr. 2,834,630 72D ifference-Decrease	Net Income before fixed Charges-	Canadian Lines	12,782,503 48	9,106,443 73Western Lines	735,361 68	Def. 2,720,078 85New England Lines	Def. 1,398,600 35	Def. 1,881,093 84Central Vermont	Def. 54,437 39	Def. 931,986 7012,064,827 42	3,573,284 34100i	
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "A" (2)-Concluded
	1922	1921
Fixed Charges-Interest on Funded Debt- Payable to Dominion Government Canadian Lines	 Payable to others-	$ cts. 4,745,762 61 13,772,127 35 2,013,108 88	$ cts. 3,107,420 66 13,385,194 04 2,077,098 70
		
	682,376 80	
Net Income or Loss-	16,467,613 03 Def. 5,735,386 48 Def. 1,277,747 20 Def. 1,398,600 35 Def. 736,814 19	16,138,163 02 Def. 7,386,170 97 Def. 4,797,177 55 Def. 1,881,093 84 Def. 1,607,856 98
		
		
		
Def. 9,148,548 22	15,672,299 34
		6,523,751 12
		
Note:-Does not include credits on account of interest on advances to Grand Trunk Pacific Railway and its Subsidiaries.
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "A" (3)
CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS-(All Lines) Income Account
Years ending December Stst, 1922 and 1921
	1922	1921
Gross Operating Revenue	$ cts. 120,135,956 71 106,348,507 11 7,626,626 19	$ cts. 127,002,466 64 101,961,804 52 7,135,753 06
		
		
Operating Expenses		
	234,111,090 01	236,100,024 22
	129,872,274 75 93,525,165 61 6,520,100 62	143,222,802 55 97,412,480 45 7,312,559 48
		
		
Net Revenue from Railway Operations		
	229,917,540 98	247,947,842 48
	Def. 9,736,318 04 12,823,341 50 1,106,525 57	Def. 16,220,335 91 4,549,324 07 Def. 176,806 42
		
		
Tax Accruals		
	4,193,549 03	11,847,818 26
	1,348,763 29 2,523,538 57 223,375 59	1,585,029 25 2,412,912 92 237,032 08
		
		
Total Operating Income		
	4,095,677 45	4,234,974 25
	Def. 11,085,081 33 10,299,802 93 883,149 98	Def. 17,805,365 16 2,136,411 15 Def. 413,838 50
		
		
Non-Operating Income		
	97,871 08	Def. 16,082,792 51
	5,644,217 22 9,970,724 38 137,554 88	4,662,112 85 11,293,066 61 154,544 19
		
		
Deduction from Gross Income		
	15,752,496 48	16,109,723 65
	4,421,180 49 8,151,262 50 1,075,142 25	3,068,810 91 8,924,206 72 672,692 39
		
		
Total Revenue before Fixed Charges		
	13,647,585 24	12,065,710 02
	Def. 9,862,044 60 Cr. 12,119,264 81 Def. 54,437 39	Def. 16,212,063 22 Cr. 4,505,271 04 Def. 931,986 70
		
		
		
	Cr. 2,202,782 82	Def. 12,638,778 88
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "A" (3)-Concluded
	1922	1921
Fixed Charges Interest Due Dominion Government-	$ cts. 19,903,750 84 4,745,762 61	$ cts. 16,462,569 13 3,107,420 66
		
Interest Due Public-		
	24,649,513 45	19,669,989 79
	21,337,501 47 15,785,236 23 682,376 80	24,315,346 47 15,462,292 74 675,870 28
		
		
		
	37,805,114 50	40,453,509 49
	62,454,627 95	60,023,499 28
Grand Total Deficit		
	51,103,296 91 8,411,734 03 736,814 19	56,989,978 82 14,064,442 36 1,607,856 98
		
		
i Note.-		
	60,251,845 13	72,662,278 16
	2,081,060 25 1,365,997 99 206,173 33	2,742,191 60 1,413,371 06 205,615 00
		
		
		
	3,653,231 57	4,361,177 66
Schedule "B" (1)
CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS (Operating Results by Months for Year 1922)
Month	Earning	Operating Expenses	ResultS cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.8,300,098 21 7,733,660 52 9,510,561 07 7,911,108 81 9,797,431 35 8,371,138 50 9,056,708 60 9,749,597 75 11,886,309 88 14,211,314 85 12,872,740 23 10,735,286 94	10,532,111 27 10,118,250 57 10,493,936 50 9,256,924 00 9,836,070 31 10,310,456 22 10,623,531 68 10,514,386 64 11,242,188 79 12,022,632 76 12,096,073 39 12,825,712 62	2,232,013 06 2,384,690 05 983,375 43 1,345,815 19 38,638 96 1,939,317 72 1,566,823 08 764,788 89 644,121 09 2,188,682 09 776,666 84 2,090,425 68
July				
			
			
October				
			
December				
			
	120,135,956 71	129,872,274 75	9,736,318 04
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-*Minister's Statement
Schedule "B" (2)
GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY SYSTEM (iOperating Results by Months for the Year 192%)
Month	Earnings	Operating Expenses	\ ResultS cts.	$ cts.	S cts.January	7,339,605 00	6,745,800 21	595,804 79February	7,658,359 00	6,461,903 10	1,196,455 90March	8,420,021 00	7,061,327 73	1,358,693 27April	6,803,191 00	6,317,318 85	485,872 15May	8,064,364 00	7,075,519 23	988,844 77June	9,220,064 00	7,508,821 62	1,711,242 38July	9,820,641 00	7,561,253 76	2,259,387 24August	10,037,144 00	8,206,449 75	1,830,694 25September	9,384,984 00	8,252,590 82	1,132,393 18October	10,156,568 00	8,980,713 83	1,175,854 17November	10,084,710 00	8,861,393 13	1,223,316 87December	9,358,856 11	10,494,073 58	1,135,217 47106,348,507 11	93,525,165 61	12,823,341 50
Schedule "B" (3)

[Stage Direction]
January___
February..
March	
April	
May	
June	
July	
August....
September.
October___
November.
December.
Italics-Denote loss.
493,623 52 524,510 33 608,459 14 554,668 28 613,360 18 596,727 38 560,874 29 604,638 20 658,461 10 791,589 74 860,933 20 758,780 83
7,626,626 19
508,373 04 483,532 08 555,473 30 486,257 05 510,096 10 551,525 99 480,774 14 554,254 11 542,853 78 581,610 21 663,645 21 601,705 61
6,520,100 62

[Stage Direction]
Schedule "C" (1)	'

[Stage Direction]
Comparative Statement of Operating Deficits for Years 1922 and 1921
Year ending December Year ending December 31st 1922	31st 1921
Canadian Government Railways	$ 2,496,721 91	$ 5,714,732 90
Divided as follows.
Intercolonial Railway Inc. Branch Lines...$ 2,302,703 36	$ 4,457,035 75	
Prince Edward Island District	
634,588	66	
617,158	93	Transcontinental Railway Eastern Lines....	875,233	02	
1,964,730	89	Transcontinental Railway Western Lines (Surplus)	
1,488,833	23	(Surplus) 1,523,547	90	St.John Quebec Railway	
148,078	67	
127,434	15	Hudson Bay Railway	
24,951	43	
71,921	08	Canadian Northern Railway System	
2,946,729 72	
6,475,911 14Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	
4,292,866 41	
4,029,691 87Total Deficit	
9,736,318 04	
16,220,335 91
157S
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
SsCHEDULE "C" (2)

[Stage Direction]
Comparative Statement of Net Deficits for Years 1921 and 1922
Grand Trunk Railway System: Divided as follows.-
Canadian Lines-
Grand Trunk Railway Company.
Ottawa Terminals Railway	
Canada Atlantic Transit Co...
St. Clair Tunnel Company	
Toronto Terminals Railway....
Terminal Warehouse Reg	
Canadian Express Company	
Grand Trunk Western Lines....
Grand Trunk New England Lines. Central Vermont Railway	
Year ending	Year ending
December 31st, 1922	December 31st, 1921
5,620,814 37 113,769 09 82,454 25 231,852 26 203,091 48 250,000 00 266,594 97

[Stage Direction]
7,386,170	97
1,277,747 20	
4,797,177	551,398,600 35	
1,881,093	84736,814 19	
1,607,856	98
Total Deficit
9,148,548 22
15,672,299 34
Schedule "D"

[Stage Direction]
Results of Operation, Years 1921 and 1922
Net Income	Dividends	paid to	Accumulated Undistri-	- .	G.T. Rly. Co.	buted Surplus	1922	1921	1922	1921	1922	1921$ cts.	$ cts.	S cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.Grand Trunk Railway System	Chicago, New York and	Boston Refrigerator	34,178 03 198,559 23	219,526 48 88,310 09	67,284 56 465,547 99	340,522 42 379,740 40International Bridge Co.. Montreal Warehousing Co	120,000 00	120,000 00	
Ltd... .	178,933 12	165,772 42			6,531 17	2,598 05
Terminal Warehousing						
46,068 69 132,350 09	57,838 03 51,367 29	250,000 00 4,200 00	28,686 60 257,964 84	232,617 91 143,767 61Oshawa Railway	
Rail and River Coal	2,800 00	
89,566 87	211,573 84	200,000 00		716,674 85	854,158 83
Thousand Islands Rail-						
way	
Montreal and Southern	11,091 93	1,830 26	2,100 00	4,200 00	14,871 87	6,995 0516,102 17	90,124 2S 106,102 87	564,811 03	648,708 86 390,299 83*St. Clair Tunnel Company *G.T. Milwaukee Car Ferry	
Co..		146,873 IS				102,405 37
Central Vermont Railway-						
Central Vermont Transpn.						
Co ..	37,477 45	71,679 63			841,079 69	878,657 14
						
	712,123 24	381,439 05	576,300 00	127,000 00	151,671 16	40,429 07
'Taken up by Grand Trunk Railway Company in 1922 accounts. 

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "E"

[Stage Direction]
Summary of Fired. Charges
-	1922	1921	Increase or DecreaseCanadian Northern Railway	S cts. 16,915,174 26 15,796,371 96	$ cts. 17,595,707 51 13,224,208 27	$ cts. 680,633 35 2,572,163 69
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway-			
32,711,546 22	30,819,915 78	1,891,630 442,341,266 96 4,107,378 88 2,081,060 25	3,977,447,36 3,238,360 86 2,742,191 60	1,636,180 40 809,018 02 661,131 36Interest due Government	
Interest due Grand Trunk Railway	8,529,706 09	9,957,999 82	1,428,293 73
Schedule "E" (1)

[Stage Direction]
Statement of Fixed Charges for Year 1921 and 1922
Summary
-	Principal Outstanding Dec. 31,1921	Interest Accrued Dec. 31, 1921	Principal Outstanding Dec. 31,1922	Interest Accrued Dec. 31,1922Funded Debt-Canadian Northern Railway	
Funded Debt-Affiliated Companies Short Term Notes	
Equipment Trust Obligations	$ cts. 175,017,195 57 127,321,811 97 22,708,026 66 36,656,000 00	$ cts. 7,415,769 05 4,844,985 90 1,822,051 52 2,465,325 70	$ cts. 167,359,495 52 126,339,777 97 21.349.000	00 32.519.000	00	$ cts. 8,259,638 77 4,968,614 00 1,475,039 49 2,207,647 1316,548,132 17 1,047,575 34	16,910,939 39 4,234 87
17,595,707 51		16,915,174 26
		13,224,208 27		15,796,371 96
				
		30,819,915 78		32,711,546 22
15S0
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Mmister's Statement
Schedule "E" (2)
GRAND TRUNK PACIFIC RAILWAY AND AFFILIATED COMPANIES Funded Debt and Fixed Charges
Fears ended December 31, 1932 and 1921
Principal	Inter-	Interest	Principal	Inter-	InterestOutstanding,	est	Accrued,	Outstanding,	est	Accrued,Dec. 31, 1922	Rate	Dee. 31,1922	Dec. 31, 1921	Rate	Dec. 31,1921Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	$ cts.	%	$ cts.	$ cts.	%	$ cts.Guaranteed as to Principal and In-	terest by the Dominion of Canada-	1st Mortgage Bonds (Prairie)	11,908,000 00	3	357,240,00	11,908,000 00	3	357,240 001st Mortgage Bonds (Mountain)...	56,132,000 00 8,440,848 00	3	56,132,000 00 8,440,848 00	3	4	337,633 92	4	337,633 92Guaranteed by Grand Trunk Rail-	way Company of Canada- 1st Mortgage Prairie Section "A"	10,206,000 00	4	408,240 00	10,206,000 00	4	408,240 001st Mortgage Mountain Section	9,963,000 00	4	398,520 00	9,963,000 00	4	398,520 001st Mortgage Lake Superior	7,533,000 00 20,926 6S	4	301,320 00	7.533.000	00 9.720.000	00	4	301,320 00 81,221 925	5	Perpetual Debenture Stock (Con-	34,879,252 86	4	34,879,252 86	4	1,395,170 12
139,083,027 54		1,802,953 92	148,782,100 86		3,279,345 96
						
Grand Trunk Pacific Affiliated						
Companies						
Grand Trunk Pacific Branch Lines Guaranteed by Province of Sas-						
katchewan- 1st Mortgage Saskatchewan Lines						
	9,874,062 00	4	394,962 48	11,309,706 OO 1,881,792 00	4	394,962 48
		4 \			4*	
Guaranteed by Province of Alberta-						
1st Mortgage Alberta Lines Ster-						
	1,153,764 00	4	46,150 56	1,153,764 00	4	46,150 56
1st Mortgage Alberta Lines Ster-						
	2,430,000 00	4	97,200 00	2,430,000 00	4	97,200 00
Grand Trunk Pacific Elevator Company						
				1,862,352 00		93,117 60
						
	13,457,826 00		538,313 04	18,637,614 00		631,430 64
						
			Nil			66,670 76
						
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "E" (2)-Continued)
GRAND TRUNK PACIFIC RAILWAY Interest on Demand and Short Term Loans
Principal	Inter-	Interest	Principal	Inter-	InterestOutstanding,	est	Accrued,	Outstanding,	est	Accrued,Dec. 31, 1922	Rate	Dec. 31,1922	Dec. 31,1921	Rate	Dec. 31,1921Due Dominion of Canada-	$ cts.	%	$ cts.	$ cts.	%	$ cts.G.T.P. Loan Act, 1909	
. .	4	* 64,657 53 600,000 00	G.T.P. Loan Act, 1913	15,000,000 00	4	Appropriation Act, 1916	7,081,783 45 5,038,053 72 7,471,399 93	4	424,907 00 302.283	22 448.284	00	7,081,783 45 5,038,053 72 7,471,399 93	424,907 00 302.283	22 448.284	00Appropriation Act, 1917	6	6 6	Appropriation Act, 1918	6	Order-in-Council, September 5th-	26th, October 24th and November 24th, 1914	6,000,000 00	6	360,000 00	6,000,000 00	6	Receiver's Certificates-	40,591,237 10	2,200,131 75	25,591,237 10	1,535,474 2239,432,475 78	6	1,907,247 13	31.889,066 56	6	1,702,886 644,107,378 88	3,238,360 86
Due Grand Trunk Railway-						
G.T.P. Loan Act, 1909					10,000,000 00 15,000,000 00		
G.T.P. Loan Act. 1913							
Advances G.T.P. Railway, G.T.						
P. Branch Lines and G.T.P. Saskatchewan Railway		11,491,320 65	5	574,566 01	11,491,320 65	5	574,566 02
Advanced to redeem G.T.P. Rail-						
way 5% Secured Note	9,712,406 65 10,000,000 00	,5	584,000 00 * 500,000 00	9,720,000 00	485,733 70Advanced to repay Loan Act, 1909	6	6	Interest on Coupons redeemed by	Grand Trunk Railway	280,397 84	Interest on Branch Lines Securi-	ties owned by Grand Trunk Railway	4 &4J	142,096 40	4 & 4}	142,096 40Advanced to G.T.P. Develop-	ment Company	10,795,909 44	10,795,909 44	539,795 48
41,999,636 74		2,081,060 25	57,007,230 09		2,742,191 60
Note.-$64 657.53 represents interest on loan of $10,000,000 frcm January 1 to February 28,1922, being the a&te °n which loan was transferred to Grand Trunk Railway System.
$500,000 represents interest on loan of $10,000,000 from February 28, to December 31, 1922, being the aate on which loan was transferred from Dominion Government.
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "E" (3)
GRAND TRUNK SYSTEM (INCLUDING CENTRAL VERMONT RAILWAY) Principal and Interest on Funded Debt-Years 1922 and 1921
Principal
Outstanding
December
31st
InU
erest
Rate
Interest
Accrued
Principal
Outstanding
December
31st
Interest
Rate
Interest
Accrued
Grand Trunk Rly Co. oj Canada-
G.T.P. Perpetual Deb.
Stock	
G.W. Perpetual Deb. stoc. G.T.R. Consolidated
Stock	
Nor. Rly. Perpetual Stock Canada Atlantic 1st. Mort
Bonds	
Northern Railway 3rd
Pref. Bonds	
Second Equipt. Mortgage
Bonds	
Well, Grey & Bruce Bonds
Guaranteed Stock....
Equipment Trust Notes
"A"	
Equipment Trust Notes
[DOT]*B"	
Equipment Trust Notes
"C"	
Equipment Trust Notes
"D"../	
Equipment Trust Notes
U.S.R.A	
Whipple Car Shop Bonds Notes Payable Whipple
Car Shops	
3 year 6% Secured Notes. 2 year S.F.G. Debenture
Bonds	
Equipment Trust Certificates "F"	
15 year S.F.G. Debenture
Bonds	
Dominion Government
Loan 1918	
Dominion Government
Loan 1919	
Dominion Government
Loan 1920-1921...
Dominion Government
Loan 1921-1922...
Dominion Government Loan 1922-1923	
20,782,491 67 13,252,322 67
119,839,014 33 1,499,979 67
16,000,092 00
70,566 66
259,393 32 60,833,333 33
224,000 00 1,250,000 00 778,700 00
Total G.T. Rly. Company of Canada	
Grand Trunk Western Rly. Company-
1st Mortgage Bonds...
Consolidated Mortgage
Bonds	
G.T. Jet. Rly. Consolidated Mortgage Bonds... Equipment Gold Notes... Indebtedness for Cars.... Indebtedness for Advances	
Total G.T. Western Rly. Company	
24.743.000	00
11.230.000	00 25,000,000 00
25,000,000 00 56,442,019 88 3,118,322 72
380,323,236 25
14,999,720 00
11,541,000 00
3,872,000 00 2,684,500 00
2,650,196 86
[Stage Direction]
'Decrease. [Mr. Graham.)
tlncrease.
5%
5%
4%
4%
4%
6%
Vs.
4%
1,039,
662,
4,793,
59,
640.
4.
124,58 616 12
560 56 999 18
003 68
234 00
20,782,491 67 13,252,322 67
119,839,014 33 1,499,979 67
16,000,092 00
70,566 66
4)%
5%
6%
6%
26,
2,433,
[Stage Direction]
*15,
66,
46,
2,
698 18 333 33
955 00
820 00
960 00
666 66
722 00 475 00
268,640 00 60,833,333 33
197.000	00
336.000	00
448.000	00
1,500,000 00
838,600 00 45,000 00
100,ood 00
5%
5%
4%
4%
4%
6%
6%
Vs.
4%
41%
41%
41%
5%
6%
6%
5%
7%
61%
6%
* 1,732, t 736, t 1,500,
010 00 949 06 000 00
24.743.000	00
11.586.000	00
25.000	000 00
7%
61%
6%
6%
6%
6%
t 1,500, t 3,154, t 91,
000 00
731 28 031 33
25,000,000 00 48,702,154 42
6%
6%
6%
4%
4%
5%
6%
5%
[Stage Direction]
t 123,052 85
371,042,194 75
14,999,720 00 11,541,000 00
3.872.000	00
2.891.000	00 1,098,700 00
1,874,583 60
4%
4%
5%
6%
6J & 8%
5%
* 1,539,867 90
36,277,003 60
1,039,124 58 662,616 12
4,793,560 56 59,999 18
640,003 68
4,234 00
21,593 40 28,223 37 2,433,333 33
19,207 50
23,940 00
26,040 00
79,166 66
50,316 00 4,350 00
5,000 00 657,000 00
1,741,824 00
703,994 99
391,666 67
35,624 00
. 33,288 00
1,481,038 81
1,557,469 85
16,492,614 70
599,988 80
461,640 00
193,600 00 178,203 00 82,174 76
93,729 18
1,609,335 74

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "E" (3)-Concluded
	1922			1921		
Principal Outstanding December 31st	Int- erest Rate	Interest Accrued	Principal Outstanding December 31st	Int- erest Rate	Interest AccruedDetroit, Grand Haven & Milwaukee Rly. Co.- Equipment Mtge Bonds.. Consolidated Equipment Mtge. Bonds	
Mowatts Mtge. Bonds.... South Lyons Land	
Indebtedness for Steamers Indebtedness for Advances	
Total Detroit, Grand Haven & Milwaukee Rly. Com-	2,000,000 00 3,200,000 00 146.000	00 80,000 00 285.000	00 1,710,826 45	7% 7% 5% 65% Vs. 5%	140.000	00 224.000	00 7,300 00 5,200 00 16,010 30 t80,730,68	2,000,000 00 3,200,000 00 146.000	00 80,000 00 285.000	00 1,505,053 39	7% 7% 5% 6*% 5%	140.000	00 224.000	00 7,300 00 5,200 00 16,010 30 75,252 66$ 7,421,826 45	* 473,240 98	7,216,053 39	467,762 96Total G.T. Western Lines. . Central Vermont Railway- Refunding Mort. Gold Bonds	
Montreal & Province Linefr Bonds	
Stanstead, Shefford & Chambly Bonds	
Equipt. Trust Bonds "D' Equipt. Trust Bonds "E' U.S. Govt. Note	
U.S. Govt. Note	
American Locomotive Note	$43,169,243 31	[DOT] 2,013,108 88	43,484,056 99	2,077,098 7013,560,700 00 200,000 00 155,865 00 401.000	00 52.000	00 128.000	00 50.000	00	5% 4% 4% 6% 6% 6% 6%	[DOT]	642,868 35 8,000 00 6,234 60 [DOT]	204 17 t 7,050 00 t 3,589 68 t 7,680 00 t 6,750 00	13,161,500 00 200,000 00 155,865 00 49,000 00	5% 4% 4% 5%	654,915 62 8,000 00 6,234 60 4,083 3365,000 00 128,000 00	6% 6%	1,551 51 1,085 22Total Central Vermont Rly	$14,547,565 00	,.t 682,376 80	13,759,365 00	675,870 28
Decrease. tlncrease.
[Mr. Graham.)
Schedule "F"
CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS Total Advances by Dominion Government to December Stst, 1922
Total	Construction and Betterments	Equipment	Repayment, of Loans, including Equipment Trust Obligations	Operating Deficit	Fixed ChargesCanadian Northern Railway Total Advances to Dec. 31, 1921	
Total Advances during year ended December 31, 1922	
Less Repayments	$ cts. 251,088,248 88 49,826,881 29 2,115,538 45	$ cts. 76,318,790 29 13,251,014 30	$ cts. 37,362,781 00 719,046 85	$ cts. 32,225,080 16 19,254,893 33 2,115,538 45	$ cts. 16,748,874 00 4,344,418 27	$ cts. 88,432,723 43 12,257,508 54Total Advances to December 31, 1922	298,799,591 72	89,569,804 59	38,081,827 85	49,364,435 04	21,093,292 27	100,690,231 97
Total Accrued Interest on above Advances to December 31, 1922-$51,233,156.66.
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Total Advances to Dec. 31, 1921	 Total Advances during year ended December 31, 1922	 Less Transfer to Grand Trunk Railway		90,724,394 52 9,813,640 23 10,000,000 00	38,520,687 42 2,991,387 24 10,000,000 00	6,417,729 83		21,433,043 02 4,552,021 98	24,352,934 25 2,270,231 01
Total Advances to Dec. 31, 1922							
	90,538,034 75	31,512,074 66	6,417,729 83		25,985,065 00	26,623,165 26
£
o
o
g
g
o
tz!
[Stage Direction]
Total Accrued Interest on above Advances to December 31, 1922-$20,924,521.32.
Grand Trunk Railway System	73,702,154 42 10,858,188 18	612,322 46 3,142,680 96	7,246,495 98	31,370,661 71 2,487,778 4-1	18,514,130 87 3,272,385 22	15,958,543 40 1,955,343 56
						
						
	84,560,342 60	3,755,003 42	7,246,495 98	33,858,440 15	21,786,516 09	17,913,886 96
						
Total Accrued Interest on above Advances to December 31, 1922-$7,967,405.29.
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "G" (1)
CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS Steam Lines
Comparative Summary of Operating Results for 12 Months ending December Slst, 1922-1921
Operating Revenues-
Freight	, _
Passenger	
Mail	;:
Express	
Other Freight Train	
Other Passenger Train	
All other	
Total Ry. Opertg. Revenues....
Operating Expenses-
Mtce. of Way and Structures....
Mtee. of Equipment	
Traffic	
Transportation	
Miscellaneous Operations	
General	
Trans, for Investment, Cr	
Total Ry. Opertg. Expenses	
Net Operating Revenue-
Operating Ratio	
Operating Statistics-
Av. Miles of Road Operated....
Tons moved 1 Mile-All Frt_____
Freight Train Miles*	
Passenger Train Miles*	
Special Train Miles	
Total Revenue Train Miles	
Non-Revenue Train Miles	
Freight Car Miles, Loaded-Tr. Freight Car Miles, Empty-Tr. Passenger Train Car Miles	
Average per Traffic Train Mile-
. Operating Revenue	
Operating Expenses	
Net Earnings	
Average per Mile of Road Operated-
Operating Revenue	
Operating Expenses	
Mtce. of Way and Structures.... Tons moved 1 Mile-All freight.
Average per Freight Train*-
Tons of Freight-All Freight___
Loaded Freight Cars-Trans_____
Empty Freight Cars-Trans.... Passg. Train Cars per Passgr.
Train	
Av. Tons per Loaded Freight Car Percent Loaded to Total F.C.
Miles	
Ratio of Optg. Exp. to Optg.
Rev	
1922	1921	Increase	Decrease$ cts.	S cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.89,726,925 51	93,628,537 3'	3,90! fill Sfi17,919,602 1"	20,208,820 1!	2,289,218 022,094,621 2£	2,026,600 6f	
68,020 64	3,433,612 28	3,664,424 2(	230,811 926,505 35	7,692 5E	1,187 201,973,395 56	2,166,797 3C	193,401 803,455,778 71	3,614,559 57	158,780 79118,610,440 88	125,317,431 83	6,706,990 9531,033,118 35	33,555,870 76	2,522,752 4130,264,956 08	31,460,270 7(	. . .	1,195,314 622,861,695 68	2,541,874 83	319,820 83	59,887,257 51	^1,119,354 60	11,232,097 071,831,339 01	2,041,495 78	210,156 773,589,650 11	3,002,365 55	587,284 56	859,921 66	1,987,543 45	1,127,621 79128,608,095 10	141,733,688 77	13,125,593 679,997,654 22	16,416,266 94	6,418,602 72	108-42%	113-09%	4 6717,225,30	17,110,30	115 00	11,470,240,341	10,411,510,971	1,058,729,370	20,918,121	21,571,041	452,92012,737,487	13,198,116	460,62940,258	48,684	8,42633,695,866	34,817,841	1,021,9752,224,061	1,785,735	438,326	424,635,893	389,521,482	35,114,411	219,857,824	211,428,758	8,429,066	92,511,668	93,042,229	530,5613 52	3 60	0-083 82	4 07	0-250 SO	0 47	0 17	6,885 33	7,324 09	438 167,466 23	8,283 53	817 301,801 60	1,961 15	159 55665,895	608,494	57,501	548 34	482-66	65-6S	20-30	18-06	2-24	10-51	9-80	0-71	7-26	7-05	0-21	27-01	26-73	0-28	65-89	64-82	1-07	108-18	113-10	4-92
Change
%
11-33
3-	36 6-30
8-93
4-	39
5-	35
3-80
15-79
19-56
9-26
4-12
10-17
3-49
2-	94 24-55
3-	99 0-57
6-14
5-98
8-	14
9-	43
12-40
2-98
1-65
'Contains proportion of mixed train miles.
15S6
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "G" (1)-Concluded CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS Comparative Statement of Traffic, 1922-21
(Exclusive of Elec. Lines)
1922	1921	Increase or Decrease	Inc.	Dec.1.	Passengers Carried- Canadian Government	
Canadian Northern & G.T.P. Canadian National*	
2.	No. Passengers Carried 1 Mile- Canadian Government	
Canadian Northern & G.T.P.. Canadian National	
3.	Tons of Rev. Freight Handled- Canadian Government	
Canadian Northern & G.T.P. Canadian National*	
4.	Tons Rev. Frt. Moved 1 Mile- Canadian Government	
Canadian Northern & G.T.P.. Canadian National	6,249,545 5,143,580	6,317,130 5,671,064	Dec. Dec.	67,585 527,476	%	% 1-07 9-3011,331,226	11,938,149	Dec.	606,923	5-08293,019,12' 396,372,817	301,525,666 413,222,551	Dec. Dec.	8,506,541 16,849,734	2-82 4-08639,391,942	714,748,217	Dec.	25,356,275	3-559,667,420 15,897,096	8,377,464 16,257,869	Inc. Dec.	1,289,956 360,773	15-40	2-2222,426,403	. 21,261,600	Inc.	1,164,803	5-47	3,360,800,955 6,730,308,713	2,712,519,996 6,285,193,516	Inc. Inc.	648,280,959 445,115,197	23-90 7-06	10,091,109,668	8,997,713,512	Inc.	1,093,396,156	12-15	-	Per Ton Freight	Per Passenger	1922	1921	1922	1921i. Average Haul- Canadian Government	
Canadian Northern & G.T.P	347-64 423-37	323-79 386-59	46'89 77-06	47-73 72-87Canadian National*	449-97	423-19	60-84	. 59-87
*Less System Interline.
[Stage Direction]

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "G" (2)

[Stage Direction]
Gkand Thunk Railway System	[DOT]
	Year 1922	Year 1921	Increase or Decrease	%of Increase or Decrease
				
$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	Passenger Revenue	17,566,692 55	19,235,152 10	1,668,459 55	8-67Freight Revenue	79,716,164 68	74,003,180 71	5,712,983 97	7-72Other Revenue	9,065,649 88	8,723,471 71	342,178 17	3-92Total Operating Revenue	106,348,507 11	101,961,804 52	4,386,702 59	4-30Maintenance of Way and Structures	14.443,436 90	17,342,492 84	2,899,055 94	16-72Maintenance of Equipment	25,534,095 46	23,843,169 19	1,690,926 27	7-092,388,205 97	2,300,614 59	87,591 38	3-81Transportation-Rail	46,871,731 69	48,928,295 25	2,056,563 56	4-20Miscellaneous	666,470 19	728,139 68	61,669 49	8-4 7General	3,653,288 74	4,295,753 59	642, 464 85	14-95Transportation for Investment-Cr	32,063 34	25,984 69	6,078 65	23-39Total Operating Expenses	93,525,165 61	97,412,480 45	3,887,314 84	3-99Operating Ratio	87-94%	95-53%	7-59%	7-95%Net Revenue from Railway Operations	12,823,341 50	4,549,324 07	8,274,017 43	181-87Railway Tax Accruals	2,523,538 57	2,412,912 92	110,625 65	4-58Uncollectable Rly. Revenues	34,777 12	23,919 38	10,857 74	45-39Hire of Equipment-"Dr"	1,270,560 66	1,026,924 90	243,635 76	23-72Joint Facility Rent-"Cr."	34o,051 78	299,015 62	46,036 16	15-40Net Operating Income	9,399,516 93	1,384,582 49	7,954,934 44	574-53Revenue Tons Carried	29,942,949	27,254,786	2,688,163	9-86Revenue Tons Carried one Mile	6,341,677,948	5,604,187,795	737,490,153	13-16Average Rate per Ton	$ 2 66	S 2 72	$ 0 06	2-21Average Rate per Ton per Mile	c. 1-26	c. 1-32	c. 006	Average Distance Hauled	211-79	205-62	6-17	3-00Revenue Passengers Carried	12,401,927	13,526,108	1,124,181	8-31Revenue Passengers Carried one Mile	597,916,068	622,495,530	24,579,462	3-95$ 1 42	* 1 42	" " per Mile	c. 2-94	c. 3-09	c. 0-15	4-85Average Distance Hauled	48-21	46-02	2-19	4-76Revenue Train Miles	23,603,634	23,457,661	145,973	0-62Earnings per Revenue Train Mile	$ 4 50	$ 4 35	$ 0 15	3-45Expenses per Revenue Train Mile	* 3 96	4 15	.0 19	4'bSNet Earnings " " 	0 54	0 20	0 34	170-00Employees and Compensation, Etc.-	Average number of Employees	38,359	39,234	875	2-23Average Wage	$ 1,507 96	$ 1,595 52	$ 87 56	5-49Total Operating Expenses	93,525,165 61	97,412,480 45	3,887,314 84	3-99Total Payroll Expenses	54,016,242 75	57,905,998 84	3,889,756 09	6-72Payroll to Operating Expenses	57-76%	59-44%	1-68%	2-83Total Fuel for Locomotives	14,412,077 01	13,050,864 04	1,361,212 97	10-43Fuel to Operating Expenses	15-41%	13-40% 2-01%	15-00
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "G" (3)

[Stage Direction]
Central Vermont Railway
*u !, ' [DOT]	Year 1922	Year 1921	Increase or Decrease	%of Increase or Decrease$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	1,207,451 76 5,677,849 89 741,324 54	1,362,007 56 5,143,566 53 630,178 97	154,555 80 534,283 36 111,145 57	11-34 10-39
17 64
				
	7,626,626 19	7,135,753 06	490,873 13	6-88
				
	1,045,831 74 1,092,053 62 150,454 71 3,949,302 15 18,933 67 266,181 59 2,656 86	1,304,427 26 1,604,438 61 145,934 57 3,959,970 20 19,173 95 280,394 91 1,780 02	258,595 52 512,384 99 4,520 14 10,668 05 240 28 14,213 32 876 84	19-82
				31 -93
				3-10
				0-27
				1-25
				6-07
				49-26
				
	6,520,100 62	7,312,559 48	792,458 86	10-84
				
	85-49%	102-48%	16-99%	16-57%
				
	1,106,525 57	176,806 it	1,283,331 99	725-84
				
	223,375 59 1,774 90 506,519 18 25,920 10	237,032 08 631 29	13,656 49 1,143 61 250,532 49 1,392 49	5-76
				181-15
		255,986 69 24,527 61		97-87
				5-68
				
	400,776 00	645,928 87	1,046,704 87	162-05
				
	3,865,689 369,128,514 $ 1 46	3,428,344 298,520,857 S 1 49	437,345 70,607,657 $ 0 OS	12-75
				23-65
				2-01
c. 1*53	c. 1-72	c. 0-19	11-04 9-6795-49	87-07	8-42	1,01a,097 33,149,915 $ 1 19	1,235,122 36,890,101 S 1 19	220,025 3,740,186 $ 0 09	17-8110-14 8-18c. 3-64	c. 3-69	c. 0-05	1-3532-66	29-87	2-79	9-341,884,060 S 4 05	1,870,166 $ 3 82	13,894 $ 0 23	0-746-023 46	3 91	0 45 0 68	11-510 59	0 09	755-55Employees and Compensation, Etc.-	2,763 $ 1,566 91	2,859 $ 1,597 69 7,312,a59 48	96	S-S6$ SO 78	1-936,520,100 62 4,109,420 19 63-03% 1,202,160 97 - 18-44%	792,458 86 205,415 S9 4-02% 108,585 32 3-48%	10-834,314.835 58	4-76 6-8159-01% 1,093,575 65 14-96%	9-9323-26
IMr. Graham.]
fioi
Schedule "G" (4)

[Stage Direction]
Years 1922 and 1921
Distribution of Operating Revenues
-	Freight	Passenger	Mail	Express	Other Revenue from Trans- portation	Revenue from operations other than Transportation	Total1922 Canadian Lines	
Western Lines	
New England Lines	
Central Vermont	
Total	
1921 Canadian Lines	
Western Lines	
New England Lines	
Central Vermont	
Total	
Increase or Decrease	
Per cent of Increase or Decrease	$ cts. 56,561,067 87 20,934,597 45 2,220,499 36 5,677,849 89	$ cts. 14,342,003 03 2,751,016 77 473,672 75 1,207,451 76	$ cts. 1,212,433 28 327,731 59 38,408 70 115,540 93	$ cts. 2,883,700 28 495,738 82 45,169 08 189,805 25	$ cts. 1,202,740 35 701,951 88 54,817 65 293,268 75	$ cts. 1,498,074 42 314,268 47 290,615 36 142,709 61	$ cts. 77,700,019 23 25,525,304 98 3,123,182 90 7,626,626 1985,394,014 57	18,774,144 31	1,694,114 50	3,614,413 43	2,252,778 63	2,245,667 86	113,975,133 3054,239,903 65 17,731,671 85 2,031,605 21 5,143,566 53	15,510,164 08 3,207,277 53 517,710 49 1,362,007 56	1,133,737 52 329,093 86 38,595 55 123,431 64	3,285,110 86 218,627 08 13,759 00 119,428 99	1,169,414 66 396,466 51 63,628 59 262,734 87	1,519,701 50 310,119 99 245,216 59 124,583 47	76,858,032 27 22,193,256 82 2,910,515 43 7,135,753 0679,146,747 24	20,597,159 56	1,624,858 57	3,636,925 93	1,892,244 63	2,199,621 55	109,097,557 586,247,267 33 7-89	1,823,015 35 8-85	69,255 93 4-26	22,512 50 0-62	360,534 00 19 05	46,046 31 2-10	4,877,575 72 4-47
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement

Schedule G (4)-Continued

[Stage Direction]
Year 1922 and 1921
Distribution or Operating Expenses
-	Maintenance of Way and Structures	Maintenance of Equipment	Traffic	Transportation	Miscellaneous	General	Transpo ration for Investment Cr.	Total$ cts.	$ cts.	% cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.1922	" - [DOT]	Canadian Lines	10,740,705 72	20,792,314 43	1,815,853 22	34,020,648 66	414,133 95	2,560,590 96	26,433 49	70,317,813 45Western Lines	2,952,528 94	4,293,834 08	509,507 62	11,247,629 78	84,791 57	944,403 88	5,617 09	20,027,078 78New England Lines	750,202 24	447,946 95	62,845 13	1,603,453 25	167,544 67	148,293 90	12 76	3,180,273 38Central Vermont	1,045,831 74	1,092,053 62	150,454 71	3,949,302 15	18,933 67	266,181 59	2,656 86	6,520,100 62Total	15,489,268 64	26,626,149 08	2,538,660 68	50,821,033 84	685,403 86	3,919,470 33	34,720 20	100,045,266 231921	Canadian Lines	12,862,797 47	17,809,497 41	1,583,830 08	35,574,797 57	402,320 04	2,904,024 32	17,974 09	71,179,292 80Western Lines	3,645,973 97	5,422,977 19	658,956 14	11,672,504 08	91,864 32	1,156,028 48	7,122 25	22,641,181 93New England Lines	$33,721 40	610,694 59	57,828 37	1,680,993 60	173,955 32	235,700 79	888 35	3,592,005 72Central Vermont	1,304,427 26	1,604,438 61	145,934 57	3,959,970 20	19,173 95	280,394 91	1,780 02	7,312,559 48Total	18,646,920 10	25,447,607 80	2,446,549 16	52,888,265 45	747,313 63	4,576,148 50	27,764 71	104,725,039 93Increase or Decrease	3,157,651 46	1,178,541 28	92,111 52	2,067,231 61	61,909 77	656,678 17	6,955 49	4,679,773 70Per cent of Increase or	Decrease	16-93	- 4-63	3-76	3-91	8-28	4-35	25 05	4-47Increa-e-Roman.	Decrease-Italic.
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "H" (1)
CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS Statement of Operating Revenue Paid in Labour Years 1922 and 1921
1922	1921	Increase or Decrease	% Inc. or Dec.Gross Earnings-	S cts. 60,679,033 37 40,939,945 76 18,516,977 58	$ cts. 69,088,474 16 41,275,314 84 16,638,677 64	S cts. D. 8,409,440 79 D. 335,369 08 I. 1,878,29994	D. 12-17 D. 0-81 I. 11-29
120,135,956 71	127,002,466 64	D. 6,866,509 93	D. 5-41
Operating Labour-				
	36,209,864 10 23,715,240 30 13,044,274 08	42,233,504 97 28,842,633 11 11,498,120 09	D. 6,023,640 87 D. 5,127,392 81 I. 1,546,15399	D. 14-26 D. 17-78 I. 13-45
				
				
				
	72,969,378 48	82,574,258 17	D. 9,604,879 69	D. 11-63
Ratio of Labour to Gross Earnings->
59-67 57-92 70-44	61-13 69-88 69-10	D. 1-46 D. 11-96 1. 1-34 [DOT]	D. 2-39 D. 17-12 I. 1-94
				
				
				
	60-74	65-02	D. 4-28	D. 6-58
Comparison of Payroll- (Including Betterments)				
	82,390,245 42	88,948,031 14	D. 6,557,785 72	D. 7-37
				
Average Number of Employees
1922	1921	Inc or Dec.	%37,888 20,510	39,480 20,835	D. 1,592 D. 325	4-03 1-56
58,398	60,315	D. 1,917	3-18
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "H" (2)
CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS Ratio of Expenses to Gross Earnings
	1922	1921		Inc. .		%
				or Dec.	me. or Dec.	
Labour-						
Canadian Northern	59-67	61-13	D.	1-46	D.	2-39Canadian Government	57-92	69-88	D.	11-96	D.	1712Grand Trunk Pacific	70-44	69-10	I.	1-34	I.	1-94Canadian National	60-74	65-02	D.	4-28	D.	6-58Fuel- Canadian Northern	13-29	15-63	D.	2-34	D.	14-97Canadian Government	15-00	17-91	D.	2-91	D.	16-25Grand Trunk Pacific	14-20	19-24	D.	5-04	D.	26-20Canadian National.:	14-01	16-84	D.	2-83	D.	16-80Other-	Canadian Northern	31-89	32-61	D.	0-72	D.	2-21Canadian Government	33-18	26-06	I.	7-12	I.	27-32Grand Trunk Pacific	38-54	35-87	I.	2-67	I.	7-44Canadian National	33-35	30-91	I.	2-44	i.	7-89Total-	Canadiaji Northern	104-85	109-37	D.	4-52	D.	4* 13Canadian Government	106-10	113-85	D.	7-75	D.	6-81Grand Trunk Pacific	123-18	124-21	D.	1-03	D.	0-83Canadian National	108-10	112-77	D.	4-67	D.	4-14Schedule "H" (3) CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS -Distribution of Operating Expenses	1922Labour- Canadian Northern	% 56-91 54-60 57:i9Canadian Government	Grand Trunk Pacific	Total, Canadian National	56-19Fuel (Loco.)- Canadian Northern	12-68 14-13 11-52Canadian Government	Grand Trunk Pacific	Total, Canadian National	
Other- Canadian Northern	12-9630-	41 31-	27 31-29Canadian Government	Grand Trunk Pacific	
Total, Canadian National	30-85
100-00
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "H" (4)
Disbursal or the Expenditure Dollar
Year 192$
\	G.T. Ry. System	C. V. Ry. Co.
	Cts. 57? 15* 26!	Cts. 63 18* 18*
		
		
		
	100	100
		
Disbursal of the Revenue Dollar Year 1922
	G. T. Ry. System	C. V. Ry. Co.
	Cts. 502 13? 23*	Cts. 54 15? 15?
		
		
		
	88 19?	85* 24?
		
		
	107? 7?	109? 9?
		
	100	100
		
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement

[Stage Direction]
Schedule "I" (1)
Train Mileage
	1922	1921	Increase	% Increase
			Decrease	Decrease
Passenger- Canadian Government Railways	4,581,949	4,753,004	171,055	3-6Canadian Northern Railway	5,949,755	6,348,272	398,617	6-3Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	1,711,546	1,606,093	105,453	6-6Canadian National Railways	12,243,250	12,707 369	464,119	3-7Mixed-	Canadian Government Railways	803,390	1,141,457	388,067	30-6Canadian Northern Railway	1,836,926	1,784,768	52,158	2-9Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	304,918	368,075	63,157	17-3Canadian National Railways	2,945,234	3,294,300	349,066	10-6Freight-	Canadian Government Railways	5,839,937	5,360,057	479,880	9-0Canadian Northern Railway	9,426,244	10,305,947	879,703	8-5Grand Trunk Pacific	3,206,447	3,111,247	95,200	3-1Canadian National Railways	18,472,628	18,777,251	304,633	1-6Special-	Canadian Government Railways	10,225	14,629	4,404	30-1Canadian Northern Railway	17,378	28,496	11-118	39-0Grand Trunk Pacific	7,031	8,782	1,761	19-9Canadian National Railways	34,634	51,907	17,373	33-3Work-	Canadian Government Railways	522,337	318,070	204,267	32-8Canadian Northern Railway	1,185,027	1,124,793	60,234	5-4Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	527,900	412,619	115,281	28-6Canadian National Railways	2,235,264	1,855,482	379,782	20-5Total-	Canadian Government Railways	11,757,838	11,587,217	170,621	1-5Canadian Northern Railway	18,415,330	19,592,276	1,176,946	6-0Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	5,757,842	5,506,816	251,026	4-6Canadian National Railways	35,931,010	36,686,309	756,399	8-6
Mr. Graham.]

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "I" (2)

[Stage Direction]
Train Mileage
	1922	1921	Increase or Decrease	Increase or Decrease
				
Passenger-				
Canadian Lines	7,524,503	7,733,973	209,470	2-71Western Lines	1,967,427	2,307,987	340,560	14-76New England Lines	296,698	345,220	48,522	14-06Central Vermont	908,282	1,029,060	1X0,778	11-7410,696,910	11,416,240	719,330	6-30Mixed-	Canadian Lines	709,961	714,067	4,106	*58Western Lines	31,050	40,078	9,028	22-53Central Vermont	59,473	66,606	7,133	10-71800,484	820,751	20,267	2-47Freight-	Canadian Lines	9,604,682	9,130,212	474,470	5-20Western Lines	3,010,504	2,749,979	260,525	9-41New England Lines	444,043	421,998	22,045	5-22Central Vermont	910,678	774,190	136,488	17-6313,969,907	13,076,379	893,528	6-83Special-	Canadian Lines	7,578	9,023	1,446	16-01Western Lines	6,344	4,977	1,367	27-47New England Lines	844	147	697	474-15Central Vermont	1,355	308	1,047	339-9416,121	14,455	1,666	11-53Work- Canadian Lines	595,304	547,379	47,925	8-76Western Lines	53,783	99,672	45,889	46-04.. 8,374	10,172 38,700	1,798	17-68Central Vermont	19,677	19,023	49-15677,138	695,923	18,785	2-70Total-	Canadian Lines	18,442,028	18,134,654	307,374	1-70Western Lines	5,069,108	5,202,693	133,585	2-57New England Lines	749,959	777,537	27,578	3-55Central Vermont	1,899,465	1,908,864	9,399	*4926,160,560	26,023,748	136,812	-53
Increase-Roman. Decrease-Italic.
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "J" (1)

[Stage Direction]
Statement showing Details of Equipment on Hand December 31, 1921; Deliveries, Retirements and
Position at December 31, 1922
' 	December 31, 1921	Retirements during the year	Delivered during the year	December 31, 1922Locomotives-	1,73a 22]	24	1,7092	22913	13
1,973	24	2	1,951
				
Passenger Equipment-	477	9	468230	9	221195	7	3	191342	5	1	33873	1	7267	1	io	76222	5	i	2182	57565	4	56166	3	6383	9	92
2,375	44	26	2,357
				
Freight Equipment-	55,833	1,279 649	105	54,6599,586 3,825	51	8,98825	3	3,8038,259	128	333	8,46471	3	681,800 1,595	15	i	1,78636	68	1,627
80,969	2,135	561	79,395
				
Work Equipment-	479	3	2	478187	15	7	1791,049	34	4	1,0193,419	226	861	4,054
5,134	278	874	5,730
				
	88,478	2,457	1,461	87,482
				
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "J" (2)
Statement Showing Details of Equipment on Hand January 1st, 1922, Additions, Retirements and
Position at December 31st, 1922
	Grand Trunk Railway, Including the Central Vermont Railway			
Number on Hand Jan. 1, 1922	Additional during the Year	Retirements during the Year	Number on Hand Dec. 31, 1922Locomotives-	339 902 251 6	ii 6 1	328 901 260 6Freight	5 10	
Passenger Service Cars-				
1,498	15	18	1,495586 109 24 32	4 7	582 102 24 32
Dining Cars					
				
Sleeping Cars					
	42 374 43	1 6 7	i 3 1	42 377 49
				
				
Freight Service Cars-				
1,210	14	16	1,20832,380 3,931 1,517 7,031 100 1,651 711	325 43	1,068 155 14 8	31,637 3,819 1,503 7,023 100 1,389 717
Coal Cars					
Tank Cars					
Refrigerator Cars				262 25	
		31		
In Company's Service-				
47,321	399	1,532	46,18833 606 43 1,873	2	1 7	34 599 47 1,857Gravel Cars	*!	Derrick Cars	4 86	102	Floating Equipment- Car Ferries	2,555	92	110	2,5373	3
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "J" (3)
CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAY COMPANY Statement of New Equipment Ordered during 1923
No of Items	Description of Equipment	Name of Builder	Price	Total8	Mikado Type Locomotives	American Locomotive Works-	$ 56,625 00	$ 453,000 0010	66,600 00	666,000 0035	Mikado Type Locomotives	Montreal Loco. Works, Ltd	66,500 00	2,327,500 003	Six Wheel Switching Locomotives..	Lima Locomotive Works	40,000	00	120,000 005	Eight Wheel Switching (Transfer Type) Locomotives.	Lima Locomotive Works	51,700	00	258,500 0016	74,500 49,400	00	1.192.000	00 1.482.000	0030	Steel Standard Sleepers	Can. Car & Foundry Co., Ltd...	00	35	Steel First Class Coaches	Can. Car & Foundry Co., Ltd...	35,443	81	1,240,533 3510	Steel Mail Cars	Can. Car & Foundry Co., Ltd...	29,650	00	296,500 0020	Steel Baggage Cars	Can. Car & Foundry Co., Ltd...	24,750	00	495,000 0010	24,750	00	247,500 0050	Steel Underframe Express Refrigerator Cars.	National Steel Car Co., Ltd	10,550	00	527,500 00250	Freight Refrigerator Cars	American Car & Foundry Co....	3,132	11	783,027 501000	40-ton Steel Frame Box Cars	Can. Car & Foundry Co., Ltd...	2,550	00	2,550,000 001000	2,555	84	2,555,840 00600	2,555	20	1,277,600 00800	40-ton Steel Frame Automobile Cars.	Can. Car & Foundry Co., Ltd...	2,625	00	1,575,000 00400	40-ton Steel Frame Automobile Cars.	National Steel Car Co., Ltd	2,625	00	1,050,000 00100	Hart Ballast Cars	Can. Car & Foundry Co., Ltd...	3,264	50	326,450 00100	2,950	00	295,000 00100	2,300	00	230,000 00100	2,730	00	273,000 005	Depressed Centre Type Flat Cars..	Can .Car & Foundry Co., Ltd...	5,930	00	29,650 00 *20,250,600 85
Schedule "K"
(GRAND TRUNK SYSTEM AND CENTRAL VERMONT)
Statement oj Revenue Tonnage by Commodities-Year 1922
	Tons	
	Grand Trunk Railway System	Central Vermont Railway
Commodity [DOT]		
Products of Agriculture-	1,406,452	33,416
	969,313	192,122
Oats	 		547,848	114,156
	391,973	9,206
	877,723	98,403
	402,860	199,519
	283,132	37,833
	13,810	9,586
	111,208	48,141
	9,338	3,136
	48,354	4,021
	198,266	9,923
	82,207	5,804
	94,880	7,716
	61,698	4,580
Other Products of Agriculture		170,007	67,943
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "K"-Concluded
(GRAND TRUNK SYSTEM AND CENTRAL VERMONT) Statement oj Revenue Tonnage by Commodities-Year 1922
	Tons	
	Grand Trunk Railway System	Central Vermont Railway
Commodity-C on.		
Products oj Animals-		
Horses and Mules			21,045 234,249 38,869 123,667 328,460 133,522 23.840 66,165 113,963 15,300 90.840 41,511	627 15,600 335 1,140 125,873 2,786
Cattle and Calves			
Sheep and Goats			
Hogs			
Fresh Meats	 ,		
Other Packing House Products			
Poultry			
Eggs	 ,		13,111 14,954 11,246 27,968 7,367
Butter and Cheese			
Wool			
Hides and Leather			
Other Products of Animals			
Products of Mines-		
Anthracite Coal		2,128,016 3,859,921 252,311 326,730 64,638 27,152 2,763,440 84,899 49,628 341,142 134,570	196,201
Bituminous Coal			
Coke			4,556 730 1,934
Iron Ore			
Other Ores and Concentrates			
Base, Bullion and Matte			
Clay, Gravel, Sand and Stone			205,809 241 1,219
Crude Petroleum			
Asphaltum			
Salt			
Other Products of Mines			4^ 243
Forest Products-		
Logs, Posts, Poles and Cordwood		388,843 84,213 1,089,864 2,089,523 140,860	39,007
Ties			
Pulpwood			
Lumber, Timber, Box Shooks, Staves and Heading			405,382
Other Products of Forest			
Manufactures and Miscellaneous-		
Refined Petroleum and its Products		621,390 8,140 289,477 2,252 243,774 63,039 405,990 108,869 258,450 7°4 n16	113,077 506 126,184 28
Vegetable Oils			
Sugar, Syrup, Glucose and Molasses			
Boats and Vessel Supplies			
Iron, Pig and Bloom			
Rails and Fastenings			4,181 15,417 10,456 19,142
Bar and Sheet Iron, Structural Iron & Iron Pipe			
Other Metals, Pig, Bar and Sheet			
Castings, Machinery & Boilers			
Cement			
Brick and Artificial Stone		441*717	
Lime and Plaster			
Sewer Pipe and Drain Tile		7L960 65,708 P.Tn QD7	
Agriculture Implements and Vehicles other than Autos			5,941
Automobiles and Auto Trucks			
Household Goods and Second Hand Furniture		18,205	2^049
Furniture (new)			
Beverages			
Ice			
Fertilizers (All Kinds)		97,295 812,119 157,452	12,609 64,270 28,387 19 nnn
Paper, Printed Matter and Books			
Chemicals and Explosives			
Textiles			
Canned Goods (All canned food products)		114^835 2,016,894 1,575,246	12!688 649,120 266,148
Other Manufactures and Miscellaneous			
Merchandise, all L.C.L. Freight			
		
Total Tons		29,942,949	3,865,689
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
[Stage Direction]
Schedule "L" (1)

[Stage Direction]
Operated Road Mileage at December Slst, 192!
Naine	Miles
Grand Trunk-Canadian Lines	 3,611'87
Grand Trunk-IF estern Lines-
Grand Trunk Western Railway	 335-94
Chicago & Kalamazoo Terminal Rly	 1-92
Chicago, Kalamazoo & Saginaw Rly	 9-51
Detroit, Grand Haven & Milwaukee Rly	 188-32
Grand Rapids Terminal Rly	 1-51
Toledo, Saginaw & Muskegon Rly	 116-28
Pontiac, Oxford & Northern Rly	 99-89
Detroit & Huron Rly	 18-58
Chicago, Detroit & Canada G. T. Jet. R.R	 59-55
M ichigan Air Line	 105 -92
Cincinnati, Saginaw & Mackinaw Rly	 53-10
Bay City Terminal Railway	 1-17
Grand Trunk Milwaukee Car Ferry	
(85-9 miles)	

 991-69
Grand Trunk-Neta England Lines-
Atlantic & St. Lawrence Railroad including line from Island Pond to
International Boundary	   165-35
Lewiston & Auburn Railroad	 5-43
Norway Branch Railroad	   1-43
[Stage Direction]
 172-21
Total Grand Trunk Railway System	 4,775-77
Central Vermont Railway	 538-31
Total (including Central Vermont Rly.)	 5,314 08
Schedule ''L" (2)
GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY SYSTEM & CENTRAL VERMONT RAILWAY
Addition and Betterments-Year ending December Slst, 193!
-	G.T. Ry. System	Central Vermont Railway	Total$ cts. SO,354 S3 168,827 85 1,155,826 20 207,868 95 146,845 23 269,083 24 202,324 19 224,327 22 77,738 29 76,837 93 1,275,739 70	$ cts. 1,405 00	$ cts. 38,949 5! 168,827 85 1,277,822 43 243,330 39 159,550 30 343,974 87 256,711 37 224,327 22 77,738 29 81,852 73 1,598,651 30
Rails, ties, track material, grading, etc	 Tunnels, subways, bridges, etc	 Crossings, signals and inter-lockers	 Station and Roadway Buildings, etc	 Shops, enginehouses and machinery			121,996 23 35,461 44 12,705 07 74,891 63 54,387 18	
			
		5,014 80 322,911 60	
Expenditures on Equipment				
	3,775,064 28	628,772 95	4,403,837 23
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "M" (1)
CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS Betterments effected during Fiscal Year ending December Slst, 1922
The total main track mileage operated by Canadian National Railways was reported for the year ending December 31st, 1921 as-17,338-30 miles.
On December 31st, 1922, the main line mileage was as follows:-
Canadian Government Railways-
Intercolonial Rly. (including Branch	Lines)	  2,283-44
National Transcontinental Rly. Eastern Lines	 1,415-74
National Transcontinental Rly. Western Lines (including Lake Superior
Branch)	 582-14
St. John & Quebec Railway	 171-80
Hudson Bay Railway	 214-00
[DOT]	4	667*12
Canadian Northern Railway, Eastern Lines (including Halifax & South Western
Rly..)	 2 892-28
Canadian Northern Railway, Western Lines (including D. W. & P. Railway)....	6,976-38
Niagara, St. Catharines and Toronto Railway and Toronto Suburban Rly. '
(Electric Lines)	 126-13
[Stage Direction]
_________	9	994.79
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	 2'710-5fl
Total Main Line Mileage	 17	372-41
Of the above main line mileage, the following lines are inactive-
Canadian Government Railways-
Riviere Ouelle Wharf Branch	 4-68
Lyster to Villeroy	11	13-00
Canadian Northern Railway, Eastern Lines-
Lynton Jet. to La Tuque	 39-60
Maynooth to Wallace	15-90
Lyn Jet. to Brockville		4.95
Udney to Orillia	  10-21
Canadian Northern Railway, Western Lines-
Edmonton to Stony Plains	 19-94
Milnes Landing to Koksilah River	 25-90
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway-
Snaring Jet. to Pochohontas	 14-89
Total Inactive Mileage	 148-37
Total Main Line Operated Mileage	 17,224-04
The additions and reductions of main line mileages, during the year, were as follows:-
Canadian Government Railways-
New 'cut off" constructed at Moncton	
Line abandoned by "cut off" at Moncton	
Spurs previously reported, which should not have been reported as main lines-
Fairview to D.W.T. Halifax	
Nicolet to Nicolet Wharf	
Marine Spur, Quebec	
Changes due to realignments and rechainages	
Additions
Canadian Northern Railway, Eastern Lines-
Connections constructed-
Hawkesbury	
Rockland	
Colbright	
Pembroke	' ' \ ' ]"
Waehago	t	\ '
Spurs previously reported which should not have been reported as main lines-
Vaicartier to Clarks	
Loretteville to Stoneham	[[[
Montmorency Jet. to Montmorency Mills	
Arundel to China Clay Mines	
Bessemer Jet. to Bessemer	
Belmar to Cordova	
Oshawa to Oshawa Town	
Garson Jet. to Garson	!	
Key Jet. to Key Harbour	
Changes due to realignments and rechainages	
0-18
0-	13
1-	47 0-27
Reductions
3-68
2-OS
2-08
5-	40 10-00
9-20
9-60
2-	40
3-	70
6-	20 1-37
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "M" (1)-Continued.
Canadian Northern Railway, Western Lines-
Lines on which construction was completed and taken over for operation during the year-
Amaranth to Aionza-	
Gravelbourg to Hodgeville	
Lintlaw to Kelvington	
Meifort to Ridgedale	
Demain to Beechy	
Turtleford to St. Walburg	
Red Deer Jet. to Red Deer	
Victoria to Koksilah River	
Spurs previously reported which should not have been reported as main lines-
Hope Farm Spur	
Dundee Branch	
Ocre River to end of track	
Craven Jet. to Craven	
Changes due to short connections, realignments and rechainages	
©rand Trunk Pacific Railway-
Line taken over for operation, Leyland to Luscar	
Spurs previously reported which should not have been reported as main lines-
Spurs on Prairie District	
Spurs on Mountain District	
Alberta Coal & Mountain Park Branch	
Alberta Coal & Pacific Pass Branch	
Calgary Branch	
Changes due to short connections and rechainages	
Totals	
Net increase in main line mileage-34 [DOT]!! miles.
28-99
22-69
22-10
52-50
180-59
2-86 4-02 .	3-76
4-38 1-96
17 15 19-11 7-78
2-	54
3-	71 1-12
The following betterments were made to Roadbed and Track during the year 1922:- New 85-lb. Rail laid 1922-
Canadian Government Railways-Eastern Lines	
"	"	"	-Western Lines	
Canadian Northern Railway-Eastern Lines	
"	"	"	-Western Lines	
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	
Total	
Second Hand Relay Rail Laid 1922-
Canadian Government Railways-Eastern Lines	
"	"	"	-Western Lines	,'****
Canadian Northern Railway-Eastern Lines	
"	"	"	-Western Lines	*	
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	
Halifax & South Western Railway	
Total	
107-16 Miles 40-32	"
26-78	"
240-75	"
29-24	"
444-25	"
32-59 Miles 7-82	"
35-03	"
72-57	"
4-62	"
20-00 "
172-63 "
Tics Put in Track for Renewals 1922-
Canadian Government Railways-Eastern Lines	 1.253,958
"	"	"	-Western Lines	
231,333Canadian Northern Railway-Eastern Lines	[DOT][DOT]	
929,931"	"	"	-Western Lines	
2,367,178Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	
977,614Halifax & South Western Railway	
150,000Total	
5,910,014
[Mr. Graham.1

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "M" (1)-Continued
Ballasting Charge-able to Capital Account 1922-
Canadian Government Railways-Eastern Lines	 101-8 Miles
Canadian Northern Railway-Eastern Lines		92-8 "
"	"	" -Western Lines	
667-7	"Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	
159-4	"Halifax & South Western Railway	
8-9 "Total	
1,030-6 "
Water Supplies 1922-
Number
Canadian Government Railways-Eastern Lines	 10
Canadian Northern Railway-Western Lines	 27
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	,.	7Halifax & South Western Railway	,...	6Total	
50
Tie Plates 1922-
Canadian Government Railways-Eastern Lines. "	"	" -Western Lines
Canadian Northern Railway-Eastern Lines..
"	"	"	-Western Lines...
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	
Halifax & South Western Railway Total	
Number
193,624
110,000
51,715
185,242
74,290
28,000
642,871
Rail Anchors 1922-
Canadian Government Railways-Eastern Lines.
"'	"	-Western Lines
Canadian Northern Railway-Eastern Lines....
"	"	"	-Western Lines....
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	
Total	
Fencing, Wire and Snow 1922-
Canadian Government Railways-Eastern Lines.
"	"	-Western Lines
Canadian Northern Railway-Eastern Lines....
"	"	"	-Western Lines....
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	
Halifax & South Western Railway	
Total	
Number
20,500
71,600
1,102
82,400
10,000
185,602
276-27 Miles 0-50	"
5-67 " 94-70 "
10-00 " 432-40	"
[Stage Direction]


C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "M" (1)-Continued
The following new structures were constructed and improvements to existing structures and facilities carried out:-
Item	Can. Govt. Rly.Can. Nor. Rly.	G.T.P. Rly.	H. & S. W. Rly.	TotalEast Lines	West Lines	East Lines	West Lines	9	3	20	8	1	415	2	8	1	163	1	1	1	66	1	2	911	1	24	26	2	6414	4	19	34	6	774	1	4	13	3	25Coaling Plants, New	1	i	4	4	4.	1	153	5	3	11New Culverts	177	10	8	177	32	2	40613	3	11	5	32Bridges and Trestles Filled	16	3	49	79	16	163262 .	20	93	378	105	7	865
In addition to the above considerable work was undertaken such as the construction of farm and highway crossings, roadways, ashpits, drop-pits, loading platforms, ditching and wells for station water supply, and the installation of track scales, turntables, interlocking plants, machinery in shops and roundhouses, and the heating and lighting of stations, freight sheds, etc.
The number of sidings and siding extensions constructed during the year were as follows:-
Canadian Government Railways-Eastern Lines. "	"	"	-Western Lines
Canadian Northern Railway-Eastern Lines...
"	"	"	-Western Lines 
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway	
Halifax & South Western Railway	
Total	
Aggregate
Number	Length
42	54,837 Ft.
38	52,189 "
66	66,844 "
102	133,841 "
61	98,324 "
6	2,893 "
315	408,928 " '
The following are some of the larger items carried out during the year:-
Canadian Government Railways. (Eastern Lines)
At Elmsdale a new 40,000 gal. steel tank was erected to replace the old wooden tank.
At Truro Engine House six stalls were lengthened to accommodate "Santa Fe" locomotives.
New 40,000 gal. steel tank was erected at River Denys to replace the old wooden tank.
At Folleigh a new 40,000 gal. steel tank was erected and the old wooden tank removed.
At Maccan a diversion was made in the highway by which two dangerous grade crossings were eliminated. This work wras carried out by the Province of Nova Scotia in conjunction with the Railway.
At Sackville the old piers of the Tantramar river bridge were removed and bank protection provided.
At Cape Tormentine extensive repairs were made to the docks where scour had been caused by the propeller of the S.S. Prince Edward Island. The entrance and turning basin were further dredged to facilitate the operation of the ferry and provide sufficient depth of wrater for same.
At BorG-en 5,000 tons of heavy stone rip rap was placed along outer face of pier and approach to afford additional Protection and a large amount of concrete was placed under concrete cribs of pier to protect against further scouring and undermining. Work preparatory to standardization betwreen Summerside and Tignish was carried on, about 15 miles of machine ditching and 15 miles of hand ditching being completed and the replacement of bridges and culverts in this territory being about 50% completed.
At Moncton the remodelling of the terminal facilities begun in 1920 and continued in 1921, was carried on. This year's wrork consisted of lengthening the main yard tracks at the west end; completing the new double track main line from station to mile 1-8 St. John Subdivision; constructing a new coach yard; extending platforms at Station and removing abandoned coaling plant, etc.	.	.At Mechanical Shops, Moncton, a new floor was laid in one-half of the engine erecting shop and a portion of the roof of the freight car repair shop was insulated.	.	.
At St. John the remodelling of Island Yard was completed. This consisted of a new double track main line from Cold Brook to Gilberts Lane, a distance of 1*36 miles, together with the necessary alterations to yard tracks, etc., and two new pile trestle bridges, each one hundred feet long. A new yard office was built to replace the one destroyed by fire.
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "M" (1)-Continued
From Mont Joli to Levis a telephone despatching system was installed.
Absolute permissive automatic block signals were installed between Levis and Chaudiere from Charny to Cadorna and from West Junction to Chaudiere.
At St. Leonard Jet. a 100-ton capacity coaling plant, water supply and drainage system was installed.
At Ste. Rosalie Jet., new water supply and drainage system were completed during the year.
At Hughes, Mile 93-5 Makamik Subdivision, two main line connections were made with the A. R. & M. Co. Ry.
On the Murray Bay Subdivision telegraph wires were stretched between LaMalbaie and St. Joachim.
Halifax and South-Western Railway
On the H. & S. W. Railway a new station and new freight shed were built at Lunenburg to replace those destroyed by fire and in this connection additions and alterations to trackage in yard were also made.
Between Halifax and Yarmouth, six hydraulic ram installations were made providing a more reliable supply of water and a more even distribution of water stations.
Canadian Government Railways. (Western Lines)
Work commenced on extension to roundhouse at Sioux Lookout in order to provide accommodation for proper handling of larger engines. A mechanical coaling plant, depressed cinder pit awl s*\nd house are in course of erection at this point, replacing the present facilities which are uneconomical to operate and expensive to maintain. In connection with the above facilities the engine house tracks are being re-arranged. The above works are about 35% completed.
At Sioux Lookout the erection of an employee's boarding and recreation building was commenced and is about 40% completed. A new sewer connecting with these buildings, and the hospital and station has been completed.
At Redditt, the terminal yard w'as extended to the East end to provide for average length trains which previously had to be cut when entering the yard.
Two No. 9 gauge copper wires were strung between Sioux Lookout and Winnipeg and telephone equipment installed for train despatching.
Canadian Northern Railway (Eastern Lines)
At Quebec the outward freight shed was extended 200 feet.
At Limoilou a five-Stall extension to engine house was constructed and heating system renewed. A new turntable centre, car truck pit and jack were installed. A new coaling dock was constructed.
At Morin Heights, St. Genevieve and Glen Miller, new stations were built and station extensions made at Consecon and Forfar.
At Brent, Jellicoe and Gogama, coaling docks which had been destroyed by fire were re-built.
At Leaside an oil storage building was constructed and extensive additions made to the stores building. Fourteen new hydrant houses were constructed.
At Capreol, two dwelling houses for employees were constructed. The heating system at this terminal was remodelled, and the construction of a 500-ton ice house was commenced.
At Hornepayne, two dwelling houses for employees were constructed.
The contract for connecting line between Long Lac on the C.N.R. and Nakina on the N.T.R., a distance of 29-46 miles, was awarded and construction is now being proceeded with.
Canadian Northern Railway (Western Lines)
At Fort W illiam, a concrete station platform 450' x 20' was constructed, also a concrete island platform 450' x 6'.	...
Air cooling plants were installed at Port Arthur, Rainy River, Dauphin and Kamsack.
Grading was commenced on alignment revision between mile 32 and 38 Kashabowie Subdivision, near Rowan and is 20% completed.
At Bears Pass and Kawene, work on replacing of 40,000 gal. tanks by 60,000 gal. tanks was commenced.
On the Fort Frances Subdivision three pile trestles are being replaced by steel spans on concrete piers.
At Mile 72-3 on the Pleasant Point Subdivision a steel bridge consisting of one 225' and two 80' steel spans on concrete piers over the Assiniboine river, has been completed.
At Mile 7-7 on the North Lake Subdivision, a new steel bridge consisting of two 108' and two 65' steel spans on concrete piers has been completed.
At Mary field, the construction of a dam and reservoir having 15,000,000 gal. capacity was completed providing a new water supply at this location. In connection with this new water supply the pipe line has been laid and pump house erected, and tank is now under construction.
At Tilney a new water supply has been provided by construction of dam and reservoir having 18,000,000 gal. capacity and the erection of tans and pump house.
At Gravelbourg, a new water supply was provided, involving the construction of dam, tank and pump house.	.
At Rama, new water supply has been provided by construction of dam and reservoir, having 34,000,000 gal. capacity. In connection with this water supply the pipe line has been laid, pump house erected and tank is under construction.	...
At Conquest, a reservoir having 10,000,000 gal. capacity was excavated, pipe line laid and pump house and tank erected.	.
At Wiseton, a dam was built and reservoir excavated, providing storage capacity of 12,000,000 gals. In connection with this water supply new pipe line was laid and pump house and tank erected.
The installation of new water supply at Ethelbert, which was commenced in 1921, was completed during the year.
102i
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "M" (1)-Continued Canadian Northern Railway (Western Lines-Continued.
At Paskwegin, a new reservoir was excavated, providing xvater storage capacity of 17,000,000 gals., new pipe laid, and pump house erected.
At Radville, the capacity of water storage reservoir was increased by 6,000,000 gals., by construction of a new dam. Pump house was enlarged.
At Nutana, a dope reclaiming plant was constructed and wheel platform extended.
At Saskatoon, an additional story was erected on office building.
At Dauphin, a new subway was completed.
At Kindersley, 3 miles of pipe line were laid and installation of pumping plant completed, this work having been started during 1921.
At Mecheche, the construction of a newr dam and reservoir having 100,000,000 gallons water storage capacity was completed and pipe line laid to tank.
At Lloydminster, a new water supply was provided, obtained from Neale Lake, 1-9 miles North from the track.
At Mount Robson, a 901 snowr shed was constructed.
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway.
At Rivers, construction of a new dam across the Little Saskatchewan river, to provide for increased wrater supply [DOT]wns started.
New sewers wrere constructed at Melville and Watrous.
At Raymore, a dam wras built and reservoir excavated providing water storage capacity of 70,000,000 gallons. Pipe line wras laid and pump house and tank erected.
At Pope, a dam was built and reservoir excavated, providing water storage capacity of 35,000,000 gallons. Pipe line wras laid, pump house erected and tank is under construction.
At Hubbard, a dam was built and reservoir excavated, providing water storage capacity of 23,000,000 gallons. Pipe line was laid and pump house and tank erected.
At Bird tail Creek, Mile 190 Miniota Subdivision, an 80' steel span was erected, replacing timber trestle of the same length.
At West Yard, Regina, additional tracks were provided, aggregating 14,490 feet in length. A 6 stall addition to the round-house at this location is under construction.
At Calder Yard, Edmonton, the erection of a car repair shop 303' x 83' was commenced.
At Mirror, a four stall addition to the engine house was built and new machine shop constructed.
At Coalspur, a 3 stall engine house, 200 ton coaling plant, and 50,000 gal., water tank were erected.
At Edson, the existing water reservoir wras excavated to increase the storage capacity. Depressed cinder-pit, was provided at this Station.
At Prince Rupert, a roadway was constructed to Oriental Dock, 3 electric elevators were installed in warehouse, and new fender booms provided at wharves.
Between Ansell and Bickerdike a line revision was constructed eliminating a long timber trestle.
Thirteen miles west of Prince George, a line revision was constructed, eliminating a timber trestle wrhich had been a continual source of trouble, and also eliminating a portion of the line which had been built on a side hill subject to slides.
CO-ORDINATION Eastern Lines
At Haw^kesbury, construction of two main track connection, additional yard tracks and 3 stall engine house commenced during 1921, was completed during the year. This work provides for the co-ordination of the G.T.R., and C.N.R., facilities at this point, allowing the elimination of one of the stations and an interlocking plant.	# _
At Rockland, construction of connecting track betwreen the G.T.R. and C.N.R., siding tracks, and one stall engine house, commenced during 1921, was completed and these facilities put into operation. The above facilities permit of the consolidation of the station at this point and the elimination of a diamond crossing and interlocking protection.
At Napanee, the construction of a connecting track between the G.T.R. and C.N.R., was commenced. The construction of this connection will eliminate a diamond crossing and 3 flagmen, also a back-up movement for C.N.R. trains at this point.
Western Lines
At Neebing, 3-2 miles west of West Fort W'iiliam, w'ork wras commenced on a new terminal yard and facilities consisting of 24 stall engine house, 350 ton coaling plant, 150,000 gal., water tank, with 8" pipe line, 2\ miles long, connecting to the city of Fort W'illiam w ater mains, also all other necessary yard accomodations and facilities. The yard which will have a capacity of 3,100 cars, is designed to accommodate the special requirements of traffic at this point.	...	.	...
Construction of a connection from mile 30-52 Graham Subdivision to the Kashabowie Subdivision, near Rowan, co-ordinating the C.G.R. and C.N.R., was commenced. Grading is about 35% completed. This connection wrill be carried over the Mattaw'in River and C.P.R. track on steel structures.
Double track will be laid from the above mentioned connection into Fort William and at present has been laid between mile 2-87 and 6-19 Kashabowie Subdivision, also through Neebing Yard from mile 6-19 to 11-1. Grading for the double track is completed from mile 11-1 to 13-4.
At Lampman, a connection between the C.N.R. and G.T.P. has been constructed, affording joint use of station, water supply and providing better facilities for handling freight and passenger traffic. The track has been laid but ballasting not completed. The completion of this connection will eliminate an interlocked diamond crossing.
(Mr. Graham.]

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "M" (1)-Continued
At Regina, a connection between the Craik Subdivision of the C.N.R. and the Riverhurst Subdivision of the G.T.P. has been constructed. The track on this connection has been laid but ballasting not yet completed. This connection will give trains from the C.N.R. direct access to the G.T.P. yard, freight and engine terminal, and permits of the consolidation of staff at one point, saving in switching movements and operation.	.
At North Edmonton, the various connection between the C.N.R. and G.T.P. which were commenced during 1921, have been completed, with the exception of the interlocking plant, work on which is under construction. Train movements are controlled temporarily by semaphores pending the completion of the interlocking plant.
At Stony Plains, a short connection was constructed between the C.N.R. and G.T.P., permitting joint use of the G.T.P. station at this point, and allowing the abandonment of 19-4 miles of track.
At Magnoiia, a connection was constructed between the C.N.R. and G.T.P. The construction of this connection permitted the elimination of 11 miles of parallel and duplicate track between Magnolia and Lobstick Junction.
The construction of a connection between the G.T.P. at Duhamel, and the C.N.R. at Battle was commenced and will be ready for operation during 1923. The construction of this connection will permit of the elimination of 10-3 miles of parallel track, on which there were two long timber bridges over the Battle River.
During the present ypar it is proposed to continue works which were uncompleted at the end of last year, and undertake new works of which then larger items are briefly referred to below.
Canadian Government Railways (Eastern Lines)
Paving team tracks with granite blocks at Deep Water Terminals, Halifax.
Dredge turning basin at Borden, P.E.I., to provide sufficient depth of water for operation of car ferry at all stages of tide.
Completion of work on standardization of gauge between Summerside and Tignish, P.E.I.
Erect one copper wire and provide telephone train despatching equipment between Campbellton and Mont Joli to facilitate the handling of train movements.
Extensions of store building at St. Malo.
Canadian Government Railways (Western Lines)
Completion of the construction of a boarding house for employees at Sioux Lookout.
Extension and rearrangement of trackage at Redditt, and the provision of 300 ton mechanical coaling plant, standard sand house, depressed cinder-pit and the replacement of turntable with turntable of greater length.
Replacement of machinery at Transcona shops and also provide additional machinery.
Replacement of frame trestle 854 feet long with concrete culvert and fill at mile 46-7 Quibell Subdivision.
Halifax and South Wtestern Railway
Replacement of timber trestle 257 feet long with concrete culvert to fill at Puddle River, mile 27-4 Chester Subdivision.
Ballasting on the Liverpool and Chester Subdivision.
Canadian Northern Railway (Eastern Lines)
Provisions of interlocking plant at Harrowsmitli.
Provision of 5 stall extension to engine house at Caperol.
Installation of additional equipment at Leaside locomotive and car shops and provision of heating, lighting and shelving in stores building extension.
Provision of scrap reclaim building and plant at Toronto.
Reconstruction of telegraph pole lines on various Subdivisions.
Replacing pile trestle 222 feet long with concrete and steel bridge at Indian River, mile 98-3 Pembroke Subdivision.
Replacing timber trestle 555 feet long with concrete culvert and fill at mile 110-0 Ruel Subdivison.
Replacing timber trestle 180 feet long with concrete abutments and steel span at Midway Creek, mile 147-3 Ruel Subdivision.
Replacing timber trestle 240 feet long with steel span, concrete abutments and fill, at Muskego River, mile 0-34 Oba Subdivision.
Replacing timber trestle 283 feet long with steel span concrete abutments and fill at Opishkanogama River, mile 0-72 Oba Subdivision.
Continuation of replacement of 1,300 foot trestle across Kiosk-Koqui Lake, mile 20-4 North Bay Subdivision.
Canadian Northern Railway (Western Lines)
Revision of line between mile 48 and 50 Kashabowie Subdivision.
Provision of additional machinery and replacements of machine by those of improved type at Fort Rouge shops.
Extension and rearrangement of yard at Brandon.
Provision of a reservoir for water supply at Kipling.
Construction of a subway at Fairford Street, Moose Jaw.
Provision of water supply at Avonlea.
160S
[Stage Direction]
V.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "M" (1)-Concluded Construction of freight shed at Dauphin.	.
Completion of rearrangement of yard and erection of coal dock, sand house, ashpits, and sewer lines at Humboldt commenced during 1922.
Revision of alignment between Horburg, mile 132 and Saunders mile 156 Brazeau Subdivision.
Filling trestles on various Subdivisions.
Ballasting.on various Subdivisions.
Provision of telephone train despatching service between Yorath and Kindersley; North Battleford and Saskatoon; Saskatoon and Yorath Junction; Humboldt and Saskatoon.
Reconstruction of telegraph pole lines on various Subdivisions.
Extension of stores buildings at various locations.
Provision of additional buildings and facilities at Jasper Park Summer Resort.
Grand Trunk Pacific Railway
Completion of freight car repair shops at North Edmonton Terminals.
Provision of snow shed 600 feet long at mile 1075-5 Tete Jaune Subdivision.
Filling trestles on various Subdivisions.
Ballasting on various Subdivisions.
Provision of stores building and locomotive foreman's office at Rivers.
Provision of Oil handling equipment at Smithers and Prince George.
Acquisition of and improvements to Minaki Inn.	[DOT]
Improvements and additions at Fort Garry Hoteb Winnipeg.
Provisions of water supply and installation of ventilating system at MacDonald Hotel, Edmonton.
Hudson Bay Railway
Provisions of two stall engine house at The Pas, and general improvements to roadbed and track.
Co-Ordination	.
Eastern Lines.	...	.	.
Installation of two additional signals and low voltage junction switch operating machine in connection with existing automatic signals at Chaudiere.
Provision of track connection of Joffre.
Completion of terminal facilities, rearrangement of yard, additional trackage and paving of roadways at Quebec.
Provisions of additional yard trackage at Limoilou.
Double tracking on St. Charles River Bridge and approaches thereto between Limoilou and Parent Square, Quebec.
Construction of six mile connection between C.G.R., near Dombourg and C.N.R., at Donnacona with a view to the abandonment of 25-7 miles of Canadian Northern Railway between Donnacona and Ailenby Junction.
Completion of connection between the C.N.R. and G.T.P. and improvements of water supply at Hawkesbury.
Continuation of work paving team roadways at Cherry Street yard Toronto.
Completion of installation of 75 foot turntable at Howland.
Construction of Spur track at Brockville between G.T.R. Manitoba yard and C.N.R., track.
Construction of a 60 car capacity storage siding, at Washago.
Completion of connection between G.T.R. and C.N.R. and track alterations at Napanee, also the construction of a new joint station at Napanee.
Provision of a new baggage room at North Bay.
Western Lines-	#
Completion of initial development of yard and engine facilities at Neebing.
Completion of double tracking from Port Arthur to Kakabeka Falls.
Provision of additional sidings between Kakabeka Falls and Mokomon and installation of automatic signals.	.	....
Double tracking on 0-5% grade from Mokomon mile 32 and mile 35*6 Kashabowie Subdivision.
Completion of grade and alignment revision at Rowan mile 35 to 38 Kashabowie Subdivision.
Rearrangement of tracking at Portage la Prairie to provide double track through town and eliminate interlocking plant at East end of town.			.
Construction of two wye connections at Yorkton, elimination of interlocking plant at present crossing of C.N.R., and G.T.P. abandonment of C.N.R., wye at mile 24 Tonkin Subdivision and removal of C.N.R., engine house and water tank to the G.T.P.
Completion of connection between G.T.P. and C.N.R. at Lampman and moving C.N.R., water tank to Junction Point.
Provisions of water supply at Lampman to serve C.N.R. and G.T.P.	^
Completion of connection between C.N.R. and G.T.P. at Regina and Co-ordination of engine facilities at the G.T.P. terminal, also improvement of local freight facilities at this point.
Construction of connection between G.T.P. and C.P.R. at Saskatoon and Provision of automatic signals.	. .	.Construction of connection between the G.T.P. and C.N.R. at Ryley and provision of automatic signals.	_	.	.	.Completion of installation of automatic signals for co-ordination connections constructed at Alix during 1921 and 1922.	^	,
Completion of the South connection between the C.N.R. and G.T.P., at Camrose, also provisions of automatic signals, additional siding extension to station and connection to city water supply.
Completion of interlocking plant at North Edmonton.	.
Provisions of automatic signals for connection between the C.N.R. and G.T.P., at Magnolia.
Consolidation of G.T.P. terminal facilities at Jasper, with C.N.R., terminal facilities at Lucerne involving construction of seven stall extension to engine house, coaling plant and sand house, ashpit, additional yard tracks, cottages and dwellings for employees, coach, water and steam lines.
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
Schedule "M" (2)
CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS Statement of work done on construction of new lines during 1922 Eastern Lines
A contract for the grading, bridging and culverts on the Long Lake Cut-off was awarded December 30, 1922, but only preparatory work was done up to December 31, 1922.
Beyond this no other work was done on Eastern Lines in way of construction of new branches.
Western Lines Grading
No grading was done during the year.
Bridges, Trestles and Culverts
On new lines in 1922 in the erection of bridges, trestles and culverts, 455,846 F.B.M. timber and 7,949 lin. ft. of piling was used. Details of where this work was done is given on attached statement, N 1.
Tracklaying
No tracklaying was done in 1922 on new lines.
Ballasting and Surfacing
In 1922 there were 170- 3 miles of new track ballasted, including sidings and wyes. With the exception of 3 miles on the Vancouver Island Line, the whole of this was on Prairie Lines. Detailed statement No. 2, attached, shows the branches on which this ballasting wras done, and divided into Provinces shows there was ballasted on Manitoba lines 19 miles; on Saskatchewan lines 78*9 miles; Alberta lines 69-4 miles and British Columbia lines 3 miles.
Fencing and Telegraph Lines
59-6 track miles of fence and 27-4 miles of telegraph line were erected during the year. Detailed statement No. 2 shows the lines on which this work was done, and gives mileages covering each branch.
Buildings and Structures
Water Tanks	.
2 water tanks were completed during the season, for new lines, and also 3 pump houses, and 2,970 lin ft. of pipe line built to serve them.
Stations, Loading Platforms, etc.
During the year 4 third-class and 3 fourth-class stations, 15 freight and passenger shelters, 10 loading platforms and 16 stock yards, were erected on new lines.
Section Houses
10 section houses were completed on new lines during 1922.
Turntables
1 turntable was erected during the year.	.
The branches on which the above buildings and structures were placed are shown in attached statement No. 1.
Miles put in Operation
During 1922 on Canadian Northern Western Lines there were 172-3 miles of new lines turned over to the Operating Department for permanent operation. Attached detail statement No. 3 shows these lines and mileages.
Office of Vice-President of Construction,
Toronto, February 14, 1923.
[Mr. Graham.1
Schedule "M" (2)-Continued CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS Westebn Lines
Buildings and Structures erected on New Lines during year 1922, to December SI
Branch	Water Tanks	Pump Houses	Pipe Line	3rd Class Station	4th Class Station	F. and P. Shelters	Section Houses	Loading Plat- forms	Stock Yards	Turn- table	Bridges, Trestles and Culverts	Piles DrivenManitoba- Amaranth	i	i	L. ft.	i	i	i	3	2	F.B.M.	Lin. ft.
i	i			i	i	i	3	2			
Saskatchewan- Jackfish													
												
					i i	2 1 2	2 1 2 1 1	3 1	3 2 2 3 2			
Luck Lake													
												
Melfort, N.E			i		i i i								
												
Swift Current													
												
Thunderhill		i	i				2 1		2				
Melfort-Humboldt													
												
Total for Sask		i	2		3	2	8	7	6	12			
Alberta- Onoway	 Red Deer Spur													
												
1	G	2	1	2	84,850	Total for Alta	1	6	2	1	2	i	84,850	British Columbia- Okanagan Branch	*	370,996	7,949Totals	2	3	4	3	15	10	10	16	i	455,846	7,949
g
g
o
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Minister's Statement

C.N.R.-Ministers Statement
Schedule "M" (2)-Concluded CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS No. 2	Western Lines
Statement of Ballasting, Fencing and Telegraph Line on Construction Lines during 1922
Branch	Fencing track Miles	Telegraph line Miles	Ballasting Miles	Main Line	Sidings and Wyes	TotalManitoba-	Amaranth	17-8	17-8	180	10	19-0Total for Manitoba	17-8	i7-8	18-0	10	190Saskatchewan-	5-5	4-8	1-2	6 0Melfort N.E	22-0	23-7	1-5	25-2Swift Current	4-1	30-0	2-5	32-513-7	13-7	1-5	15-2
Total for Saskatchewan		35-7	9-6	72-2	6-7	78-9
Alberta-					
6-1	61	0-6	6-759-7	3-0	62-7
Total for Alberta		61		65-8	3-6	69-4
British Columbia-					
			3-0		30
					
			3-0		30
					
Totals		59-6	27-4	159-0	11-3	170-3
[Stage Direction]
CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS Western Lines, 1922
Statement of Miles oj New lines put into Permanet Operation, to December Slst
Branch	From	Mile	To	Mile Miles	Total
Manitoba-					
		44-18		62-02	17-8
Saskatchewan-					
		100-3		114-2 13-9	
		55-7		77-8 22-1	
C Melfort N.E			00		23-7 23-7	
		28-8		34-4 5-6	
E Swift Current		Gravelbourg....	79-0	5 miles west of	109-6 30-6	95-9
			Hodgevnle.		
A Iberta-					
		00		61	6-1
British Columbia-					
		0-0		52-5	52 [DOT] 5
T otal						172
A-Previously operated on behalf of Construction Dept. Board Order No. 31900 issued Dec. 12th, 1921 opened line with speed restrictions. Permanent operation started October 2nd, 1922.
B-Previously operated on behalf of Construction Dept. Board Order No. 31833 Nov. 28, 1921 opened line M. 57 to 77*8 with speed restrictions. Permanent operation started January 2nd, 1922.
C-Previously operated on behalf of Construction Dept. Board Order No. 31813 Nov. 24, 1921 opened line with speed restrictions. Permanent operation started Oct. 2, 1922.
D-Previously operated on behalf of Construction Dept. Board Order No. 31961 Jan. 3, 1922 opened line with speed restrictions. Permanent operation started Oct. 2,1922.
E-Previously operated on behalf of Construction Dept. M. 79 0 to 1V1. 104-6. Board Order No. 32966 13th Oct., 1922 opened line M. 79 to 109 with speed restrictions. Permanent operation started Get. 31st, 1922.
F-Previously operated on behalf of Construction Dept. Board Order No. 29308, Jan. 27, 1920 opened line Mile 1 -80 to Mile 52-5 with speed restrictions between Mile 26-5 and Mile 52-5. Board Order 29543 April 15th, 1920 opened line between Mile 0 (Point Ellice) and Mile 1-80 (Alpha St.) with speed restrictions. Turned over for permanent operation as from Jan. 1st, 1922.
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Ministers Statement
Arthur Meighen: 
George Perry Graham: If you take in the Central Vermont, a little over $4,000,000.


Arthur Meighen: Yes, if the Central Vermont is taken in the net operating surplus is a little over $4,000,000 This is the first operating surplus that parliament has had reported to it since we came out of the valley of doubt and difficulty through which we had been

C.N.B.-Minister's Statement
struggling for many years in the solution of our railway problem.
Now, while we have an operating surplus on the two roads together of some $4,000,000, we must not forget that the fixed charges which we have to pay on the systems aggregate a vastly larger sum than this. The fixed charges on the Canadian National aggregate, if I have put the figures together correctly, approximately $42,000,000. What the fixed charges are on the Grand Trunk I was not able to glean, but from my recollection of the subject I think they were some $8,000,000- that is to say, the interest on the debenture stock and the interest on the guaranteed stock which we have assumed. As a consequence, on the Canadian National Railway, where there is a deficit in operation of $9,000,000 and where we have some $42,000,000 of fixed charges to pay, we find ourselves confronted with an aggregate deficit of some $51,000,000. That $51,000,000 compares with the parallel figure for 1921 of $56,000,000 odd and with the parallel figure for 1920 of $67,000,000 odd. So it will be seen that notwithstanding the annual mounting of the fixed charges due to the fact that each year the interest on the previous deficit must be added, the improvement in operation is such that the annual deficit is year by year reduced-reduced, in millions, from 67 to 56 and then from 56 to 51 for the year through which we have just passed. These figures apply, of course, to the Canadian National Railway alone. Coming to the Grand Trunk, the profit on operation is some $12,000,000. If my figures are right as to the fixed charges-the interest on the bonded indebtedness, if you so describe it, of the system-there would be a surplus there of some $4,000,000. I am not quite sure that my figures are precisely right-though I think they are-as regards the Grand Trunk; as regards the Canadian National they are undoubtedly right.
I wish to call the attention of the House to the significance of these figures and as well to impress upon the House really what is meant by these recurring deficits in order that all will understand-though I do not wish to intimate that all do not now-just what these deficits imply, and will not think that they imply more than they do. I am not unaware-indeed, if there is anyone in this country wholly and vitally and keenly aware, it is myself-that there are influences at work-and I do not refer to railway systems- to make the people or some sections of the people believe that these deficits mean something that they do not mean at all; that they have been brought upon us because of the folly of weak-kneed, blind and stupid politicians in bringing this country into the owner-
ship of the national lines we have to-day. Of this $51,000,000-let us think of that for the time being; for by means of it the point I make can be well made clear-of this amount of deficit this year on the Canadian National, about $33,000,000 is money owed the government of Canada. That is to say, it is not money that must be found in order to let the railways stand up and proceed and give service. About $33,000,000, then, is money owed the government of Canada, and the proportion that is owed us of the total deficit is growing year by year. Because it is owed us, of course, it is a debt all the same, and I am not by any means suggest ing that it should be left out of account But we must understand that it is monej owed this country because of guarantees we gave and loans we made in years gone by, because of indebtedness we have assumed as respects the system, in regard to all of which we have our charge against the system.
What I impress at the moment is this: That assuming we go ahead, as certainly we should-and we should go ahead with accelerated speed from this on, now that we are loosened from the London management and have only one system instead of two-assuming we go ahead as we have been going for these three years, and reach the point where deficits cease, then we must remember that all these deficits of years gone by have been no loss to the people. Quite the contrary; when we get to the point where deficits cease and we commence an era of returns over fixed charges, at that point all the deficits of these previous years become interest bearing assets. Because they are in the form of loans they now add to the fixed charges year b3' year; when we overtake the fixed charges so increased from year to year and get to earning money over and above them, at that point we have gathered up all the deficits of the years that have gone and they have become assets, loans, securities, in the treasury of the Dominion, bearing interest to the people of this country. It is a common feeling-I have met many who hold this view, and I can scarcely find fault with anyone reading some of the newspapers of Canada for doing so-that after we get past the era of these terrible deficits and reach the point where operation produces -a revenue over fixed charges, then we shall have to look back and think of the money we have thrown away because of the folly of politicians; we shall have to sit in sackcloth and ashes and repent for the $50,000,000 in 1922, the $56,000,000 in 1921, the $67,000,000 in 1920, all of which is gone forever. The very contrary, let me repeat, will be the fact. When that time

C.N.R.-Mmister's Statement
comes-and it should not be long; the pace at which we reach it should henceforth be accelerated; we have been progressing towards it satisfactorily in these late years during which members of this House have listened to the returns-when that time comes all these deficits will take the form of mortgages in the treasury, bearing interest to the Canadian people.
There is another point I want to impress on the House as respects the deficits. Keeping in mind still the $51,000,000 which in 1922 is our deficit in connection with the Canadian National Railways, $33,000,000 of which is owed to the people of Canada, does anybody imagine that if any other policy had been followed, this country would have escaped those deficits? I was glad to hear from the minister an expression of confidence that, given a chance, as they have been given, and sis the results show they have been given ever since they came under the operation of the Hanna directorate, ever since they became the National Railways-continuing to give them that chance, there is abundant hope; there is, indeed, serene and well founded confidence, that good results, all that has been hoped for, will come.
I was glad to hear him say that, although I could not help but note that it was not received with any sign of applause by hon. ' gentlemen around him-hon. gentlemen who felt that applause over a statement of that sort would scarcely be in accord with their assertions and predictions of just a few years ago. Nevertheless the statement will be received with approval by the people of this country and will be received, as well, as the expression of the honest belief of the minister, who, having reviewed the history of this question and having investigated the financial situation as regards these roads, comes to the House and says this is his profound conviction.
No, we would not have escaped these deficits if any other course had been taken. As a matter of fact, it is my belief we would have had to face one of two alternatives. We would have to have faced either an utterly demoralized service given to the people of Canada by the roads, or vastly greater sums to be provided by the parliament of Canada to hold the roads in private hands. Why is such the case? The Transcontinental Railway would have had to have been run by the Grand Trunk Pacific. It would have got from the west the traffic of the Grand Trunk Pacific, and no other traffic. The Grand Trunk Pacific would have had to have been held on its feet by the bounty of this parliament in loans of millions year after year,
operated as an isolated and almost trafficless road. The Grand Trunk would have continued to have been operated from London, under Sir Alfred Smithers and his board of directors sitting in an attic in the middle of that city, operated by Mr. Kelley here in Canada, with Mr. Kelley's methods and Mr. Kelley's directorate, and the Grand Trunk, which was at the end of its tether by the admission of its directorate in 1918, would have been out of smelling distance of its tether long years before this, and the shoulders of the Canadian people would have been under the staggering Grand Trunk, holding it there by a bounty of millions voted by this parliament year after year.
As for the Canadian Northern, this is a road that with greater assistance would have pulled through and been able to stand on its own feet. It is the only constituent of the whole Canadian National system that could have done so. It would have required advances beyond the advances that were given. It would have required to have been carried past the period when properly equipped, all its maintenance provided, its branch lines constructed, it would have had the traffic that would have supported a system of its mileage. B.ut it is the only one. Now they are all in the one system and the tremendous advantage of the policy that has been pursued is this, that instead of four or five, yes there would be five, unit roads each struggling and fighting with the other, each coming to this parliament year after year to be enabled to stand by itself and continue the hopeless battle, instead of such a condition as that we have all of them brought into one. We have the vast tremendous advantage of unification. We have the Grand Trunk system feeding traffic westward. We have the Canadian Northern system feeding traffic eastward. We have the Canadian Northern system turning such traffic as goes to eastern Canada through non-navigation times over to the Transcontinental railway, and we have the Transcontinental as a consequence showing this year only a trifling deficit whereas under other circumstances it would be showing a deficit to-day of millions of dollars which this parliament would have had to supply.
One word of repetition. The tremendous advantage of what has been done is not the improvement due to and flowing out of the fact that we have government operation; it is the improvement that arises from the fact that all these staggering unit systems are now one system, a system that is balanced in the east and west of Canada, a system that would be attractive to any band of capitalists

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
in the world, a system that has every hope and prospect of growing into a great success.
I want to call attention to one other fact. This system that we have was not wholly built for commercial purposes. There are long mileages of the system as respects which it was never hoped that for years at least they would be able to stand alone. If for the purposes of this discussion I may abandon all party beliefs, if one may so describe them I will refer to certain features of the system as colonization features, and not political features. Many parts of the Transcontinental, for example, a whole lot of the Grand Trunk Pacific, all of the Grand Trunk Pacific that ever should have been built, for the great part of it never should have been built, those roads are not roads that are founded on any commercial basis at all. Those roads are roads that if put on a commercial footing to be run by a private company, by any company, by any government in the world, would have waited decades after decades before they could ever stand on their feet and give a service to the country at all. Consequently, it is no more than blindness and folly to compare the results of a system so collected, of factors of so various a character-colonization, political blundering, non-commercial, all the others-it is folly to compare the results of a system so constructed, so brought together with the results of a system that was projected by business men in order that they might get business returns. So when we say that the Canadian Pacific, on the one hand, has a surplus and pays ten per cent on its capital stock, and that the Canadian National road, on the other hand, has a deficit of $51,000,000 and pays nothing on its capital stock, when we say that and believe that by saying so we are making a comparison of private ownership as against public ownership we are only talking the language of children.
Now a new board is in charge, and in charge of the Grand Trunk and the Canadian National combined. This unification took effect, so we are informed, and so the order in council discloses, on the 31st of January of this year. For the year 1923 the results will be the results of a unified system under single control, each serving the other instead of each fighting the other. We have every reason to hope for a very considerable improvement in the year 1923, a great improve- ment arising from the feature I have just recited, and arising as well from the fact that the Grand Trunk management in all its aspects is gone. Already the road has taken over its own insurance business. I quite agree, and it seems to me it is so obvious

as scarcely to need comment, that to take over its insurance business now that the two are unified is manifestly the proper course. There would be just as much reason for the government of this country insuring its own post offices all through the Dominion us for the Canadian National Railways with a business of $400,000,000 pretending to lean upon the financial strength of some insurance company. The insurance company in all probability would be weaker financially than the road itself, so the very first ingredient and primary principle of insurance would be absent.
There should, it seems to me,, be very many more economies resulting from the amalgamation. I am not a railway man, nor have I had the advantage of consultation with men who are, but I venture to say this, with a lot of deference because of the considerations I have mentioned: I venture to, say that if error is being made at this time in the reorganization because of the bringing together of the systems, it is the error of over organization rather than of simplicity. The results tabulated in the press so far would seem to indicate that an effort is being made to retain everybody possible, instead of an effort to get rid of all the overhead we can, and seek to make the system no longer top heavy. I hope I am incorrect in my diagnosis. The tremendous, almost endless, table of departments, and departmental heads,. and sub-heads, and assistants to presidents, and assistants to vice-presidents, and all sorts of door keepers and paraphernalia that has been presented to the public so far, fill me with some fear. It seems to me that we have not yet had assurance that the hand of the railway master is at work rather than the hand of the politician.
Let us have real amalgamation, and let the product of such amalgamation so appear that he who runs may read, that the wayfaring man although a fool may not err, that all the public will know the exact results year by year of the operation of the system. Before I sit down I want to impress again this thought on the minister. I do not find fault with his presentation this year, but I ask him that now, commencing with 1923, when we shall have one report rather than two, the minister present his details in tabulated form, and bring the data down to this House subsequently in blue book form, and in such array that the next year we can follow precisely in the line of the year before, that we can have parallel columns year by year, so that the eye can follow the results of an operation in each department one year with the other, so

C.N.R.-Ministers Statement
that the eye can trace a financial product year by year comparable to the year before. We have these tabulations in our own fiscal returns. We have them so presented in the Auditor General's report. We ought to have the same presentation in the financial statement of our railways so that everyone who examines it can tell at a glance just how the success of any feature of any operation, and the success of any feature of financing, compares with similar success the year before, so that we can trace through the years the ascending or descending curve illustrating the results as time goes along.
I would like the minister to take that seriously into account. The tremendous moneys involved in the operation of these railways makes it incumbent that we have each year as full and complete discussion, and as full and complete disclosure, as we have of the financial affairs of the Dominion. There should be as illuminating a debate, there should be as comprehensive a debate, and as thorough and ruthless investigation, on the presentation of the minister's statement year by year as respects the railways as we have in the annual budget debate of this House. One is of as much consequence- to the country as the- other; and I earnestly hope that some method may be found whereby-by parallel reports-not only giving the same results the year before but giving them in the same form, giving them in columns so that the eye can see the effect without much effort of the mind
that such can be done. Then the people of Canada-interested as they are in their system as their first and greatest asset-will drive politics out and drive business in by insisting on results year by year;, results that they know are improvements, and results that they can understand.


Mr. ROBERT FORKE (Brandon) :: Mr. Speaker, I hesitated to get on my feet to make any remarks after the very eloquent and lucid statement we have had from the right hon. leader of the Opposition (Mr. Meighen). However, I felt that we should scarcely let this opportunity pass without complimenting the minister and the country upon the improved condition of our great National Railways. I notice that the leader of the Opposition, in commencing his remarks, could not let the opportunity pass without taking just a little hit at the Crowsnest pass agreement debate we had last year. We still feel that we were right in our attitude and that no mistake was made at that time; and any little deficit that has come to the railways through that arrangement has been fully and
amply repaid by the benefit to the people who supplied the freight on those roads.
Although' I have always believed that the only solution of our railway problem was in the national ownership of those roads, yet to-night, for the first time, I have felt almost a thrill of pride in the fact that the Canadian people really own these roads; and in the not very far distant future we are going, as the politicians say, " to point with pride " to the fact that we own that large system of railroads that we thought at one time were a millstone around the neck of the people of Canada. I am glad that we have a new board of management in whom, 1 think, the people of the country have faith; and I can only echo the words that have been repeated by the leader of the Opposition and hope that no political influences will enter into the management of this system, that these railways will have a fair chance to succeed, and that Sir Henry Thornton, and his board shall have a free field and no interference whatever in their management.
One of the things I have noticed in connection with the Canadian National Railways has been the improvement in the demeanour of the people engaged in the railway service. I think there has been a considerable improvement in the management and in the courtesy and treatment extended to passengers while travelling upon the system compared with what was experienced in these respects a few years ago. One of the things most conducive to the success of any system is when the interest and pride the people employed on it take in the service and its success. I am not going to attempt to make a speech tonight in connection with the railroads because I really do not know very much about the situation, other than that I do hope that we are on the road to prosperous times as far as our railroads are concerned. Of course, I happen to be of a rather optimistic temperament and I believe that we are going to see more prosperous times in this Dominion. With more people and more traffic, east and west, I have no fear for the future. I believe the time is not far distant when there will be no more deficits on the Canadian National Railways.


William Findlay Maclean: (South York): I would like to draw attention to the annual report of the Canadian Pacific Railway, copies of which have been received by hon. members, and to point out that on page 3 there is a very succinct account of the earnings and the profits of that road for the year. In statements regarding our own railways, such

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
as the minister has presented to-day, we ought to have similar information. Then on page 14 of the same report there is a business statement of the assets and liabilities of the road. I do not say that the minister could prepare an exact statement of that kind for the use of the House at the present time, but progress in that direction could be made. Furthermore, in this Canadian Pacific Railway report there is a very succinct statement in regard to the mileage. In bur annual railway statement the number of miles of railways we own in Canada and the number of miles of railway we own in the United States, and similar information should be set forth. That has been more or less mentioned by the minister tonight, but there is no reason why we should not have the figures tabulated in our railway statement just as they are in the Canadian Pacific Railway report. The Canadian Pacific Railway Company has supplied to the members of this House, and to the people of Canada, their annual statement on the lines that were referred to a few minutes ago by the leader of the Opposition (Mr. Meighen). We should have information in that form; not only the figures which the minister has given to-night but an analysis of those figures somewhat in the form in which it has been prepared by the Canadian Pacific Railway Company.
I am one who has always believed in public ownership in this country. I see that policy coming now, and I hear almost everybody in this House saying there is no reason why it should not succeed. The greatest railway asset we have in the country to-day is the Grand Trunk. It possesses all the strategic positions in regard to traffic, or the great majority of them, in this country. It has the best grade and the best positions in the cities. It has the best position at Niagara, on the St. Lawrence, on the Detroit river, on the upper lakes, and it has good positions in cities in the West and in the West generally. There is no reason why that road, as has been said already this evening, should not be a groat asset, and should not have a surplus, instead of a deficit, in a few years. The same may be said in regard to the Canadian National. While we are speaking of our own roads, and the misadventures which they suffered, let me read to the House an item that appeared in the press this morning, in regard to the railways of the United States and the railways of Great Britain. Do hon. members know that the railways of Great Britain today are practically on the scrap heap? The railways of the United States are in a similar position, and some kind of government relief must come to those roads. I am not speaking

about the failures in connection with the railroad systems of Europe. They have all gone to pieces by reason of the war. Railways owned by the state in France, in Germany, Russia and Italy, as well as those owned by citizens, have been absolutely ruined by the war and some other things. Referring to the two cases of Great Britain and the United States, the following despatch appeared in the Ottawa press this morning:
Washington, March 26.-Enforced consolidation of United States railroads into a small number of systems putting strong and weak together, is looming up more and more as the probable big feature of the transportation recommendations which President Harding will make in his forthcoming series of speeches. This step will be urged as the only salvation for weaker roads, short of government ownership. Not improbably the British experience with consolidations which is said to have been satisfactory, will be set forth.
They have a plan in Washington, and it will be submitted to the country, to unify the roads there, and that unification will be brought about by the use of the credit of the United States and the issue of bonds. They are going to issue bonds to recover possession of the railways there. They cannot go ahead.
We have overbuilt and they have
10 p.m. underbuilt; the roads are in trouble and the government has to cqme to their relief. They are in the same position in Great Britain. A consolidation is going on there for the improvement of the railways, and the government will have to take the responsibility. So that what is coming to Canada is coming to Great Britain and the United States, and the prospect is that national ownership of railways will be more or less adopted in those countries. If that is the case, we should not be discouraged in Canada, and we should have confidence in the road and in the government, inasmuch as they have said that they intend to give government ownership a fair trial. I have not heard to-night-and I am not going to make the statement myself-that they have not given it a fair trial, and I will go so far as to congratulate the minister on the statement he made and which indicated that the railways would get a fair trial. The results of unification will come and come rapidly. We will let the public see that we really have a first-class railway system and a real solution of the railway problem in Canada.
In connection with the suggestions that have been made and the grievances which have been voiced as to our railways, the new management cannot too soon take up the question of a reclassification of freight with special reference to the basic industries that provide the great bulk of the traffic. That does not quite involve a reduction in rate, so much as

C.N.R.-Minister's Statement
an improved classification. We will give advantages to the public. The public are interested in grain and the products of grain, coal and ore, and there is no reason why the new management of the National Railways should not take up reclassification and bring relief to the people of this country who are now complaining of freight rates.
I do not suggest that the new administration, or the new board of directors, should take up the question of waterways in connection with the railways, but that the parliament of Canada should immediately take up the question of the improvement of waterways and in that way help to reduce freight rates, because the nation has just as much interest in waterways as in railways. The one is complementary of the other, and there is no reason why a great reduction in freight rates cannot be effected by parliament taking up the improvement of the waterways and co-operating with the board of directors of the railways. Therefore Mr. Speaker it is a satisfaction to those who, under a great deal of discouragement, favour the nationalization of the railways, not only because of conditions that go with 'it, but because of the mess into which our railways have got, that we have public ownership to-day, and tliat it promises to be a success. The people of Canada will be more than satisfied if they find the government on its part giving public ownership a fair trial, and doing everything possible to carry out the trust confided to them.
I wish to point out that a great change has come to the railways of America by reason of the improvement of the highways and the development of the motor truck and motor car. Do hon. members know that the local passenger business of the United States, or the great bulk of it, has gone largely to the motor car? Certainly the great bulk of the local freight in the United States and in Canada now is going to the motor truck, and in that way a lot of local business has been taken from the rail-ways, and has gone to the highways and the motor car. I know districts 200 miles in extent where there are good highways, where almost all the local business in passengers and freight has gone to the motor trucks and cars operated on the highways. The great advantage of this-and we must all recognize it

is that the motor truck comes to the shipper for the freight and delivers it to the receiver. There is no cartage to pay. It goes the same day- it is taken from the shipper and there is a return /trip the next day.
The railways have suffered discouragement by the disappearance of a lot of the local business which has been profitable to them in the past. But notwithstanding all that, there is a future for the railways. There is no future for the railways th^t have not the government behind them-and that is a fact that has come out to-day-both in Britain and the United States. That being the case, we ought to have a feeling of confidence in regard to the future and of appreciation for those who put forward the idea that the only way out of the transportation problem was by government ownership, and who had not misled the country or induced it to embark upon a doubtful venture. Therefore, if the minister can improve his statements somewhat on the line of the statements given us by the Canadian Pacific Railway, we will be able to get the number of cars, the mileage, and the net receipts for the year, and we will also get, a little later on, an actual statement of the assets and liabilities in connection with these roads we have now taken over and which constitute, I hope, the greatest asset Canada has.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and the House went into Committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
Railways and Canals-amount not exceeding $73,000,000 to meet expenditures made or indebtedness incurred (where amounts available from net operating earnings may be insufficient) by or on behalf of the Canadian National Railway Company, hereinafter called "the Company", or any company specified in the first schedule to the act incorporating the Canadian National Railway Company, being chapter 13 of the Statutes of Canada, 1919, or by the company in respect of any railways, properties or works entrusted to the company from time to time under the provisions of section 11 of the said chapter 13 of the Statutes of Canada, 1919, or by or on behalf of any company specified or referred to in chapter 13 of the Statutes of Canada, 1920; or any one or more of them, on any of the following accounts: (a) Operating deficits whenever incurred or ascertained, (b) Acquisition of property, materials and supplies, (c) Interest and sinking funds on notes, securities or obligations, (d) Principal and interest of maturing or matured loans secured or unsecured, (e) Construction and betterments. (f) Co-ordination or consolidation of railway lines and facilities, (g) Guarantees of securities. The amount herein authorized may be applied from time to time, in the discretion of the Governor in Council: (a) To meet expenditures made or indebtedness incurred by the company in respect of railway, properties and works entrusted to the company as aforesaid, (b) By way of loans in cash, or by way of guarantee, or partly one way and partly the other, subject, however, as follows: If by way of loans, the amount or amounts advanced shall be repayable on demand, with interest at the rate fixed by the Governor in Council, from time to time, payable halfyearly, secured if and when directed by the Governor in Council by mortgage or mortgages upon such properties in such form and containing such terms and
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Railways
[Stage Direction]
conditions, not inconsistent herewith, as the Governor in Council may approve. If by way of guarantee, any such guarantee may be of the principal and interest of the notes and obligations or securities of one or more of the said companies specified by the Governor in Council, and may be signed by the Minister of Finance, on behalf of His Majesty, in such form and on such terms and conditions as the Governor in Council may determine to be appropriate and applicable thereto, $73,000,000.
Arthur Meighen: We might possibly have some useful discussion on this item to-night, but I doubt it. The Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) last night intimated that to-night we would consider the estimates of the Department of Labour. There was no positive statement to that effect but that was his belief. I think it would be better if we took up the estimates of that department. The railway statement has just been given and hon. members would wish to read it before discussing it, or at least before coming to any decision with reference to it. This is the chief item of the railway estimates, and while I have no objection to its being discussed to some extent to-night, I do not think that the minister should ask us to consider an item of this kind to-night immediately after he has presented his statement to the House.


George Perry Graham: I am fully in accord with what the leader of the Opposition says. Probably the discussion to-night would not lessen the volume of debate on any subsequent occasion; we should no doubt have to start all over again. .The Minister of Labour (Mr. Murdock) is here and I suppose there could be no objection to the committee proceeding to consider his estimates.


Mr. BOYS:: The minister might be good enough to give me some information regarding the Crowsnest agreement. In his statement he said that the loss in revenue due to the restoration of the Crowsnest rates was in round figures $6,000,000.


George Perry Graham: 


William Alves Boys: That would, of course, be from the first of July to the end of the year. I did not gather just how that figure was arrived at. The statement which was submitted to the committee on transportation rates was based on the rates prevailing in 1921. Comparing those rates with the rates established by the Crowsnest agreement, and assuming the volume of business in 1922 to be the same as that of 1921, I find the estimate given by Mr. Hanna before the committee was $8,600,000 for the whole year, while in connection with the Canadian Pacific Railway it was some $7,000,000. Now we are told that for the six months mentioned it was $6,500,000. I did not 
gather from the minister, however, what figures he used in arriving at that sum.


George Perry Graham: My hon. friend will probably find the data in the tables I have placed on Hansard but which I did not read. If not, I shall be glad to get them.


Arthur Meighen: It would necessarily be arrived at by a comparison of the rates obtaining last year with the rates obtaining in 1921, because the information furnished the minister evidently was a comparison of 1922 with 1921. To be a comparison it would have to take the rates of 1922 as opposed to the rates of 1921.


George Perry Graham: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: As I pointed out, there is no doubt there would be that difference if we could assume that the 1921 rates under any conditions would have prevailed. Of course, the 1921 rates would never have prevailed, no matter what this parliament did as respects the Crowsnest agreement. But so far as the comparison goes, it would be the 1922 rates as against the 1921.


William Alves Boys: I am of the same opinion,
but I was paying fairly close attention to the matter and did not recall that the minister had mentioned that, That is why I wanted to be sure. It is an important matter, because we should like to compare the figures the minister gives with the statements given on behalf of the Canadian Pacific Railway and the Canadian National Railways before the committee on transportation rates.


George Perry Graham: I do not think we can take any other basis than the rates of 1921 as compared with the rates of 1922; and I think I explained that it was also assumed that the same amount of traffic was carried in 1922. In other words, the comparison did not allow for the fact that greater tonnage might have been carried on account of the reduction in rates.


Arthur Meighen: Could the minister give the figures comparing the actual rate in effect in 1922 with the rate that the railways agreed to accept before the special committee? I do not suppose the difference would be more than a million and a half or a million and a quarter.


George Perry Graham: That estimate could be
given. The railways did make a proposition as to rates, but I have not any comparison.


William Alves Boys: If I remember rightly the figure is something over $3,000,000, I forget whether

Supply-Labour
in regard to the Canadian Pacific Railway or the Canadian National Railways.
Item stands.



DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR

[Stage Direction]
Conciliation and Labour Act, including publication, printing, binding and distribution of Labour Gazette, and allowance to correspondents, $50,000.
William Alves Boys: Was all of this appropriation expended last year?


James Murdock: The expenditure up to January 31st was $38,928.29, leaving $11,000 for the three months.


William Alves Boys: What are the details of this expenditure?


James Murdock: - Correspondents' salaries, $7,984.78; travelling expenses, $186.53; sundries, $1.60; printing and stationery, $28,615; retail prices reports, $139.55; rental survey, $736.17; publication newspapers, etc., $1,264.66.


William Alves Boys: Is there any substantial difference in the various figures now given as between this year and last year?


James Murdock: The expenditure is practically the same as last year.


William Alves Boys: I know the total is of course; but are the figures the same in the separation of the various items?


James Murdock: The actual amount expended is about the same from year to year.


Arthur Meighen: What is the printing and stationery item?


James Murdock: The entire appropriation of $50,000 is intended mainly to meet the cost of printing, binding and distribution of the Labour Gazette, which runs to about $36,000 a year.


Arthur Meighen: Does not the Printing bureau print the Labour Gazette?


James Murdock: No.


Arthur Meighen: How is that?


James Murdock: I do not think the
Labour Gazette has been printed in the bureau for twenty years.


Arthur Meighen: That is evidently one reform that was left open for the minister. How is it he does not grasp the opportunity?


James Murdock: I have been giving the matter very serious consideration and hope to meet the right hon. gentleman's wishes in respect to it.
103J


Arthur Meighen: Where is the Labour Gazette printed?


James Murdock: The placing of the union label on the Labour Gazette was regarded in years gone by as of sufficient importance to warrant having the Gazette printed outside the bureau. That has been the determining factor.


Arthur Meighen: I suppose the government in doing all the rest of its printing, which would be about 97 or 98 per cent, is nonunion; but when it comes to the Labour Gazette it is union?


William Alves Boys: Where is the Labour Gazette printed?


James Murdock: The Federal Printing
Company prints the Labour Gazette at the present time.


William Alves Boys: Where does that company
operate?


James Murdock: It is an Ottawa concern.


William Alves Boys: Has it been printing the Labour Gazette for some years?


James Murdock: No, the contract was given to the Federal Printing Company early in 1922.


Arthur Meighen: They are'a very strong Liberal aggregation, I am informed.


James Murdock: I understand that there are some reputable Liberals connected with the firm.


Arthur Meighen: Any disreputable?


James Murdock: I do not know.,


Mr. CHARTERS:: What is the circulation?


James Murdock: About 13,000 a month.


Arthur Meighen: Was this contract made by tender, were other firms invited to tender, and how long is the contract likely to defer the minister's hopes of getting the work done in the bureau?


James Murdock: The contract was not let by tender. It runs from month to month at the will of the minister.


Arthur Meighen: Why is it not let by tender?


James Murdock: The minister being new at the business just followed the practice that had been in vogue in the past, but which may not have been right.
Supply-Labour

, Mr. BOYS: What was the cost of printing the Labour Gazette last year and the year before as compared with the present year? Was the change made because the price was too high, or the work done unsatisfactorily, or was it desired to increase the price a little?


James Murdock: The Auditor General's report for 1921-22 shows that 213,800 copies of the Labour Gazette were printed at a cost of 832,614.15. The annual cost has been between $32,000 and $36,000 for a number of years, with a tendency to slightly increase each year.


Arthur Meighen: That is the fiscal year and would be at the old rate. Will the minister give the exact figures to show how the rates compare? Who was the old contract with? I do not know myself.


James Murdock: The rates are standard, subject to the King's Printer's audit and check-in other words the current rates.


Arthur Meighen: There is no contract at all?


James Murdock: A contract to do the work, subject to audit and payment for the amount of printing done.


William Alves Boys: Is it a written or verbal contract?	[DOT]


James Murdock: Verbal. There is a
brief statement of the understanding with regard to the matter exactly the same as when I took charge.


William Alves Boys: If the company who had the contract before that were doing the work satisfactorily and at the same price, why the change?


James Murdock: I would not say that the work was being done altogether satisfactorily before.


William Alves Boys: Would the minister say it was
not?


James Murdock: No, I would not like to be that positive about it.


William Alves Boys: The minister must have had some good , reason for making the change. It may have been a political reason, but to him it would have been good, at all events. Now, can he not let us have the reason?


James Murdock: It was regarded as advisable and consistent under the circumstances, to make the change and to have another concern for the time being print the Labour Gazette with the union label thereon.
[Mr. Murdock.l


William Alves Boys: I am delighted with the pleasant way in which the minister replies,- but I would like to get the information. He says it was advisable-advisable for what reason?


James Murdock: I cannot add anything to what I have said. There were various suggestions that indicated the advisability of making the change, for the time being at least.


Arthur Meighen: What were those suggestions?


William Alves Boys: Was it because there were some reputable Liberals in this new concern?


James Murdock: That possibly was a factor.


William Alves Boys: Has the minister not a better reason?


James Murdock: There were various reasons, the chief of which was that the minister, being new on the job, was following what he understood to have been the invariable practice.


Arthur Meighen: Who were the contractors before, and who were the contractors prior to 1911?


James Murdock: The Ottawa Printing Company, of which the late Mr. Boudreault, I believe, was the head.


Arthur Meighen: What was the matter with the firm that was doing the work?


James Murdock: I am not charging anything.


Arthur Meighen: It looks as if this is a patronage government, does it not?


James Murdock: No, I would not think so-not so far as I am concerned.


Arthur Meighen: The only reason the minister has yet given is that there may have been some Liberals in the new firm. Can he think of any other reason?


Mr. LANCTOT:: I would like to know
something about the old firm. Were there any Tories in it, or any Liberals?


James Murdock: Up to 1911 the Ottawa Free Press Company had the contract. In 1911 it was promptly transferred to the Ottawa Printing Company and the work was done by them until about a year ago.


Mr. SHAW:: Is it not about time that the contract was let by tender?


James Murdock: That would not involve a saving, because the payment in any case for the printing done would be on the basis of the cost assessed by the auditors of the

Supply-Labour
Printing bureau and on standard rates fixed for all such work. Therefore it is merely a question of getting a concern which can satisfactorily and expeditiously turn out the work. It is known in advance what they are going to get for the work performed.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: Will the minister be frank and say that the reason for the change was entirely a political one?


James Murdock: I could not truthfully
say that. There were several reasons. The one that has been suggested by gentlemen opposite can be regarded by them as one of the side issues, but the real reason was that it was regarded under all the circumstances as being more satisfactory to make a change.


Arthur Meighen: I am sorry the minister's memory is so bad. He can only think of the political reason; there are other reasons that for the life of him he cannot think of tonight. The minister says all these prices are fixed and that there is no use in calling for tenders. When the Combines Act comes into operation is the minister going to turn his fury upon this combine?'


Mr. JACOBS:: Wait until it gets on the statute book, and then we will see.


Arthur Meighen: Of course, I am prepared to wait for that. But the minister says that everything is fixed; that there would be no use in getting tenders because they would all be of the same amount. That would look to me like something that would come under the definition of "combine" under the new act. Does the minister intend to turn his wrath upon this combine when the new act comes into effect?


James Murdock: My right hon. friend
misunderstands. The government railways, for example, have a good deal of printing done at different places throughout Canada. No matter what the firm doing the work undertakes to charge, the payments are based on a recognized schedule of printers' rates. That is what happens in this case. All these printing accounts are audited by the King's Printer.	*


Arthur Meighen: What is the use of auditing them if they are all the same?


James Murdock: Measurements have to be made, then we find printing concerns attempting to overcharge. In such cases their rate is cut down to the current or standard rate.


Mr. WOODSWORTH:: Does the minister think it is of any great value to have the union label on this one publication when it is not on the others?


James Murdock: No.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Under these circumstances is any effort being made to see that some kind of council is established or other arrangements made under which the employees of the Printing bureau may have some sort of self-government?


James Murdock: I have not heard of any complaint on the part of Printing bureau employees that they have not had all necessary opportunities to make their wants and complaints known to those in charge. I should be the first to resent it if I thought any condition of that kind existed.


William Alves Boys: When was the Federal Printing
Company incorporated?


James Murdock: I am unable to answer that.


William Alves Boys: Where they in business a year before they got this printing contract?


James Murdock: I am not sure as to that.


William Alves Boys: I will put a more direct question. Was the company incorporated for the express purpose of receiving and filling this contract?


James Murdock: I have no knowledge as to that. I do not even know if it is incorporated yet.


William Alves Boys: Then formed as a co-partnership?


James Murdock: It has been doing the work.


William Alves Boys: Would the minister have any difficulty in getting that information for the committee ?


James Murdock: I will try.


William Alves Boys: I may say frankly that so far as I am concerned, if instead of mentioning one reason, namely, political, and then saying generally that there were other reasons, without giving them, the minister had given those various other reasons I would be quite satisfied. If he will not do so, I think we ought to have some information about this company, and if he cannot give it now perhaps the minister will get the information as to when they started doing business, and whether they formed a partnership or were incorporated as a company for the express purpose of filling this contract.
Supply-Labour


James Murdock: We have no knowledge as to that. I am told they were in business for some .time. They were certainly in business when they got the contract for printing the Labour Gazette.


Mr. RYCKMAN:: I would like to ask the minister how he came to pick upon this amount of 350,000-and I will give him my reason for asking the question. This sum of $60,000 appears in the Estimates of 1920-1921, 1922-1923, and 1923-1924. The minister just seems to have carried the item on. The figure seems to have been tatooed into the Estimates. The minister in the section of the country whence I came made very loud protestation of the reforms and economies that were going to be effected when his government was in office. Surely this item of $50,000 need not be carried on from year to year. If the minister really means economy, I think that ten or fifteen or twenty thousand dollars could be deducted from this amount. I would ask the minister, since this hereditary item of $50,000 appears in the Estimates again this year, whether it is going to be $50,000 next year.


James Murdock: If my hon. friend will look at the Auditor General's report he will find that for the last fiscal year there was spent $49,949.90. Up to the 31st of January last, as I have already stated to the committee, there was spent $38,928.29, leaving $11,071.71 to meet the expenses of printing the Labour Gazette, pay correspondents' salaries and other incidentals for the months of February and March of the closing fiscal year.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: Can the minister effect any economies in this expenditure, or is economy just a conversational word with him?


James Murdock: On this particular item I think not, because the circulation of the Labour Gazette is increasing, and an increase in circulation means an increased expenditure under this vote. This one item has therefore remained pretty stationary. As I have already intimated, there was only $50.10 too much voted for the last fiscal year, as is shown by the Auditor General's report. That, I think, is working pretty close to the estimate.


Mr. KENNEDY (Edmonton):: To whom is the Labour Gazette distributed, organizations or individuals?


James Murdock: There are from seven to eight thousand subscriptions to the Labour Gazette. It is also distributed free to the local secretaries of trades unions and very many others who are interested in its contents. fMr. Boys.]


Mr. MacLAREN:: If the Gazette were printed in the Printing bureau, would that
effect a saving over the present cost?


James Murdock: I understand that in the actual printing there would be no particular saving. It might be possible for the Printing bureau to print the Labour Gazette without additional help, but it is pretty hard to determine what the actual cost would be having regard to the overhead in connection with the operation of the Printing bureau.


Murray MacLaren: Has the minister under consideration transferring the printing of the Labour Gazette to the Printing bureau?


James Murdock: One of the principal considerations that was in mind about a year ago when this contract was changed was the possibility of its being printed, either then or at some time in the near future, at the Printing bureau if that appeared to be the proper thing to do. That is the reason the agreement was made to run from month to month.


William Alves Boys: Would that not be a very good reason for not making the change? If you were contemplating getting it done at the Printing bureau, why make a change from the previous company at all? I should think the very opposite is the reason. This contract involves $32,600, which is a pretty snug amount. Another company had this work, and I understand that their work was satisfactory. The price was identical with the price the minister is paying now, and the minister was confronted with one of two alternatives: Either the Gazette would continue to be printed by that company, or a change would take place. The minister no doubt talked the matter over, and perhaps took advice upon it for all I know, made inquiries, and because of information of some kind that he received he decided to make the change. I do think the House is entitled to more information than the minister has given. He said that one reason for making the change was political, and that is the only reason we can get, but he admits frankly that the change was made for various other reasons. Now the fact that the minister says "for various reasons" shows that he knows there were various other reasons, and if he knows there were, he must know what they were. Surely in a matter involving such a sum we have a right to know why that change was made.


Samuel William Jacobs: 
William Alves Boys: If the hon. member will have patience and give the minister a chance to answer my question-


Samuel William Jacobs: I have asked a question and I would like an answer.


William Alves Boys: I will await my answer. After that, I will be quite prepared to submit myself to examination by my hon. friend.


Samuel William Jacobs: I have my doubts about it.


James Murdock: If my hon. friend will indicate the question he wants answered-


William Alves Boys: I do not wonder the minister has forgotten the various reasons. If I have to repeat this all again I am quite willing to do it but I do not want to unduly delay the committee. If the minister tells me that he does not know what I am asking I will be quite willing to repeat the question.
J he CHAIRMAN: Shall the resolution
carry?


William Alves Boys: Certainly not while I am on
mv feet and asking a question.


The CHAIRMAN:: I thought the hon. member had put his question.
Mr. B0\ S: I have' asked the question and I am waiting for an answer.


James Murdock: My hon. friend started out by making the assertion that a good reason for not transferring the contract would be if we were considering the possibility of having the printing done in the Printing bureau. He is entirely mistaken as to that. An important reason why we should not seriously consider it is the fact that for many years it has been regarded as the proper thing-such had been the opinion entertained under two previous governments to have the Labour Gazette printed outside the Printing bureau for the purpose of getting the union label on it. The question to be determined was whether that should be continued. It was indicated that certain of the conditions under which the Labour Gazette was being printed were not altogether satisfactory, and that the concern handling it were, possibly, not performing the work with entire satisfaction. In other words it was indicated that it was advisable to make some change, and the point to determine was should we change from the concern that were printing the Gazette and had been doing so for a number of years, transfer it to the Printing bureau and take the chance of cutting the union label out; or should we let some other concern handle it for a time, under
an agreement subject to thirty days' notice.
That was the position that was taken and I think my hon. friend will, on reflection, agree-no matter how frank I may be expected to be-that he could scarcely require me to disclose all the particular reasons indicated to me as to why it is advisable to change this particular contract, or to change from one firm to the other. I was given to understand in the most emphatic manner that it was advisable to do so. One important reason why it was deemed advisable was, that the concern that had been printing it had so much work that they could not give as prompt consideration to the handling of the Labour Gazette as we believed the cause of Labour was entitled to have. In other words they could not get the Gazette out as promptly and satisfactorily as was considered necessary.


William Alves Boys: I want to thank the minister for his explanation; that is one feature we have been waiting for. I would have thought that the main consideration in the matter would be the price and the way in which the work was done. If the work was properly done and at a right price one would not think a change would be desirable. However, if the publication of the Gazette was delayed and the minister gives that as a reason for making the change, I admit that is a fair reason. Now may I ask the minister, are there any other reasons as favourable that he can give? We have got two of them- value of the work and politics.


James Murdock: May I correct my hon. friend on one point: There is no difference in the price. The price is fixed; it is a schedule rate.	.


William Alves Boys: What I mean is that if you were getting the work done more cheaply that would be a good reason; but not if the price vTas the same, and the work was satisfactorily performed. The minister has given one reason for the change and if he has any more to assign we are entitled to have them.


James Murdock: I have already informed the hon. gentleman that there were various reasons advanced. Among those reasons is a very important one that we wanted to get the Labour Gazette out promptly.


William Alves Boys: The minister is still very strong in his use of the word "various", I see. Who is the editor of the Labour Gazette?


James Murdock: Mr. Hooper has been the editor, or was so classified, although the committee will understand that the Deputy Min-
Supply-Labour

ister of Labour really occupies the position. In an effort to economize or, shall I say, coordinate the duties of the department, it has been decided that the deputy minister and the assistant deputy minister ought to be able to do all the necessary work in editing the Labour Gazette. In consequence the services of Mr. Hooper, who has been editing the Gazette, have been, with great regret, dispensed with, dating from the end of the present fiscal year.


Samuel Charters: Does he belong to the union?


James Murdock: I am not informed as to that. Furthermore, I do not know that there is a union which embraces editors.


Mr. SPENCER:: May I ask the minister if Mr. Hooper did his work satisfactorily?


James Murdock: Oh, yes. There has not been the slightest complaint in regard to Mr. Hooper's work; in fact I understand that his work has been commendably well done always. He is a very capable man so far as I know.


Samuel Charters: Is Mr. Hooper still in the employ of the department?


James Murdock: He will until the end of the fiscal year be on salary. Then, under the retirement regulations, he will receive, I think, an amount totalling some five months' salary for the number of years he has put in.


Samuel Charters: So there is no saving at all by the arrangement which has been made?


James Murdock: Yes, there will be a saving to the extent of $2,880 a year, which I think is the salary of the editor. For five months, of course, there will be no saving. The government will pay just as much for the next five months as though Mr. Hooper were on continuous duty, but after that there will be a saving.


Henry Elvins Spencer: How long has Mr. Hooper been in the regular service?


James Murdock: He has been in the government's service for about seventeen years, and in the Department of Labour for five or six years.


Mr. GUTHRIE:: Can the minister tell us the number of correspondents employed by the Labour Gazette and what allowance they receive at the present time?


James Murdock: There are about sixty or sixty-five of these correspondents and the
r**r. Murdock.]
salary paid runs from $125 to $300 a year. I think one correspondent receives $300, but the majority are paid about $150, $175 or $200.


Hugh Guthrie: Does the minister think that those correspondents who receive $125 are being sufficiently remunerated for the work they do? I remember that when the Gazette was established, in the year 1900, the salary of a correspondent was $100, and he was expected to send in at least twelve reports per annum. I know at that time the amount paid was looked upon as very small. I am rather surprised to find that after twenty-three years there are men still working for the Labour Gazette at $125 per annum. Does not the minister think there ought to be an increase in the amount paid to those in the lower grade at the present time?	.


James Murdock: The lower salaries are $125 or $150 paid to correspondents in the very small towns. For example, at Bathurst, New Brunswick, the salary is $125, and at Thetford Mines, Quebec, the salary is $150. My hon. friend, I am sure, will appreciate that some capable clerk, a young gentleman or older gentleman, who was thoroughly familiar with conditions at Bathurst, New Brunswick, or at Thetford, Quebec, could in his evenings or spare moments put together the detailed information that is required covering that particular locality, and send it in at the proper time to the Department of Labour.


Hugh Guthrie: What do they receive at points in Ontario such as Stratford, Kitchener and Guelph?


James Murdock: At Kitchener $150, Stratford $150, and Guelph $150.
Mr. BOA'S: W'hat is the figure at Barrie? It might be under "Allandale." I think we would like an increase there.


James Murdock: Not large enough to qualify.


Hugh Guthrie: The amounts paid in the smaller places are rather too small. I do not know that I am authorized to make any complaint on behalf of these correspondents. If they are satisfied with the amount, I do not know that I should offer any complaint at all. I know that I have heard comment among labour men that the position of correspondent of the Labour Gazette was hardly worth while, and I think the minister would make no mistake if he were to look into the matter a little in the ordinary places of from ten to twenty-five thousand people in the province of Ontario, because I do think $150 is too little for the work these men do.

Supply-Labour


James Murdock: I understand that some few years ago there were some increases made in regard to these correspondents, and I will be glad to take under advisement any complaints in that respect that I receive.


Mr. GOULD:: I wish to ask the minister in regard to the correspondent in the lignite area in southern Saskatchewan, and the correspondent in Alberta. What is the name of the gentleman in southern Saskatchewan?


James Murdock: Mr. W. Hawkins at
Lethbridge, Alberta, and Mr. McCreath, in Edmonton, Alberta.


Oliver Robert Gould: Who is the correspondent in southern Saskatchewan?


James Murdock: Mr. W. B. McNeill at Regina and Rev. E. B. Smith at Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. I said $125 was the minimum, but I notice there is a salary of $100 a year.


Mr. EULER:: Is there any effort to make the Gazette self-sustaining?


James Murdock: No, we can only charge 20 cents a copy for the Labour Gazette, and of course that does not begin to pay the cost of its publication. That is only a nominal fee, I am told, to prevent people
11 p.m. from writing in just for fun to get the Gazette, but with a desire to circulate it as much as possible.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.	,
Industrial Disputes Investigation Act, $25,000.
Hugh Guthrie: Was this vote expended last year?


James Murdock: Yes, and we are $3,376 in debt.


Hugh Guthrie: Could we have some particulars of the expenditure?


James Murdock: For this year?


Hugh Guthrie: For last year-how the money was spent?


James Murdock: The hon. member means for the present fiscal year?


Hugh Guthrie: Yes.


James Murdock: During the present fiscal year we have had a considerable number of boards under the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act. The first one that is recorded here is the Association of Canadian Building and Construction Industries and employees, hod-carriers, $590; the Dominion Power and Transmission Company and employees, $125; various Nova Scotia coal companies and employees, $2,583.27; the Ottawa Electric Railway and employees, $1,560; The Algoma Eastern Railway and employees, $1,194.30; New York Central Railway and Federated Shopcrafts, $352.80, and so on. Does my hon. friend want me to complete the list? There were two large expenditures. The Southern Alberta Coal Company and employees, district 18, during last spring, cost $4,991.99. Another large matter was the Grand Trunk and employees, clerks' investigation, which cost $4,868.66. These are the two largest expenditures for the board.


Hugh Guthrie: Is there any expenditure under this item in regard to the strike that took place at Sydney, Nova Scotia, in which the militia of Canada was called out?


James Murdock: Yes, considerably prior to the time that strike occurred there was a board; in fact it was the previous year. There were two boards, if my hon. friend will recall, down in Sydney, Nova Scotia, during the latter part of 1921 and the early part of 1922.


Hugh Guthrie: An item was given by the minister, Nova Scotia Coal Company, $2,583.27. Were the costs of these boards included in that item?


James Murdock: Yes, that is the cost of the board of investigation that inquired into that situation.


William Alves Boys: These costs all have to do with the board?


James Murdock: Yes.


William Alves Boys: Nothing whatever to do with the troops that were sent down there?


James Murdock: Oh, no.


Hugh Guthrie: I think the expenditure under this head appears to be quite moderate, particularly if the convening of these boards has resulted in stopping the strike or the apprehended strike, but we know that in one instance that was not the result, that notwithstanding the efforts and the good offices of the board, very serious difficulties did arise. The question is likely to come before the House, and 1 suppose the question could be discussed under this item as to who is going to pay the rather substantial amount that someone is liable for in connection with one of these strikes in Nova Scotia which failed of settlement under the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act. Would the minister give^ us some of the particulars of the amount which that strike has cost the country?
162S
Supply-Labour


James Murdock: I am very sorry, but I have absolutely no knowledge of any other cost to the country except this particular item, unless it be the approximate amount lost in
wages.


Hugh Guthrie: Has the minister the approximate amounts in lost wages? I should be glad to know what the cost of such a strike is to the country.


James Murdock: I have not that information, and it would be to a very large extent guess work, as I think my hon. friend will appreciate. The alleged damage to property, if any, and the loss of wages and all of these things would be mere matters of conjecture. However, I have here a memorandum that indicates the time lost and the number of men who were out of work during the year on two big coal mining strikes in Nova Scotia. In the strike from August 14 to September 5th, eighteen days, 14,353 men were out and the time lost represented 258,354 days. In district No. 18 from April 1st to August 28th, 124 days, 7,538 men were out and the time lost represented 931,960 days. The total time lost therefore was considerably over a million days.
. Mr. GUTHRIE: That is the loss in wages?
Mr. MUitDOCK: No, that is the loss of days^ and I presume that if you averaged that at $5 a day you could find the approximate total amount of money involved.


Hugh Guthrie: So that if I understand the matter, these strikes of which the minister has now given the particulars have cost in wages alone something between $5,000,000 and $6,000,000. If the discussion of these strikes comes properly under this item, I would ask that the item be allowed to stand until some future time, as I am aware that some hon. members desire to discuss it. Of course, if the strikes are not pertinent I have no objection to the item carrying. But when one considers the tremendous importance of these strikes to this country in view of the loss in wages to the men, the loss to the owners and operators of the mines, and the' loss to the transportation companies, one is appalled by the figures; and if the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act fails in cases of this kind, could not the minister offer some suggestion for the improvement of the act? Is there no means which this parliament could adopt which in the future would have a better effect as between the employer and the employee in the way of avoiding or settling these strikes? They run into 
untold millions, and I should think that the minister has probably given a very great deal of attention to this question. The committee would no doubt be very much pleased to know, therefore, if he can offer any practical suggestion for the improvement of the act which in future will, if possible, obviate these strikes, or some of the larger ones at all events.


James Murdock: The hon. member will no doubt have noted that in the proposed Bill No. 84 now before the House some suggestions are contained looking to the improvement of the act, and which it is hoped may assist in maintaining a better condition of industrial harmony. As to the question of securing a measure of any kind that will at all times, under all circumstances, guard against the possibility of a strike, or the conditions that are usually incident to a disagreement between employer and employee on vital wage questions, I regret to say that I do not believe we have come to the point where we can secure anything of that kind at present. But if my hon. friend will analyze the results that have accrued to Canada in connection with the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act he will agree that we have been remarkably fortunate, and that there has been very little loss sustained in Canada in comparison with various other countries that we might mention. I have not the slightest objection, if my hon. friend insists, to allowing this item to stand for discussion later. But I think he will concede that this particular strike in which he is interested that occurred in Sydney, Nova Scotia, in August last, was the culmination of a dispute long standing. One of the very first acts I was called upon, as Minister of Labour, to perform, was to appoint a chairman for a board that had been authorized by my predecessor in the previous government. The board was all ready to function and was just awaiting the final word to proceed. That board, as my hon. friend will recall, undertook to deal with this particular situation, with some unfortunate results for some reason or other. My hon. friend will remember also the discussion which later developed and the proposals that were made down in Sydney, with the final result that we again appointed another board in the month of April or May. That board filed its award, and that award was equally thrown to one side by {he workmen as insufficient to satisfy their demands, with the result that all at once, with very little or no notice, and in repudiation of the suggestions made in the board's award, the employees went on strike. The results therefrom are, I think, familiar to my hon. friend.

Supply-Labour


Hugh Guthrie: Was the final settlement after the strike made in terms of the award originally submitted by the Board of Conciliation ?


James Murdock: I think not. I do not think it had any regard for the terms of the award.


Hugh Guthrie: Then the final settlement came about through the efforts of the men and their employers directly, without the influence of the board at all. Is that correct?


James Murdock: The final settlement was made as between the workmen and those representing the company. They, of course, had the advantage of the two inquiries that had been conducted during six or seven months. They had the advantage of all that information brought out in those two inquiries; but the settlement was made, as all settlements should be made, between those directly concerned.


Hugh Guthrie: That is just the point
that w-as brought to my knowledge during the present session in the corridors of the House. The statement was made that the men and the employers would have come to a settlement if there had been no board at all in this matter, that the appointment of the board had the effect of irritating either one side or the other and of increasing rather than diminishing the difficulty. Does the minister think that in a case such as the Nova Scota coal strike a settlement would have been reached more expeditiously had no board of investigation been appointed? I know of course that when the parties concerned demand boards, under our present law it is the duty of the minister to appoint them. But if in that respect the act is wrong, we can easily change it. It has been drawn to my attention that the Nova Scotia coal strike went from bad to worse, by reason of the appointment of a board, one party or the other resenting the appointment, and the difficulty of the situation increasing from week to week; v'hereas it is said, that if no board at all had been appointed the difficulty would have been settled without any very serious trouble. In the end it was settled, as the minister says, by the operators and the men, absolutely without regard to the funding of the board. I know that in very mam-instances the act has proved very beneficial in operation and that small strikes and difficulties have been avoided. But when the difficulty becomes serious does the minister think that the appointment of a board merely adds fuel to the fire, or has it the effect of bringing about a speedier settlement?


James Murdock: My hon. friend might
possibly like to have the results speak for themselves. From 1907 to 1921, 558 applications were made under the act for a board. The number of boards granted was 401. The number of disputes where a strike was not averted or ended was 34 only out of that total. So I think this shows a very satisfactory average of settlements. Then my hon. friend will recall that last summer when our neighbours to the south were in the midst of the most disastrous railroad strikes that possibly they had ever experienced, Canada was free from such troubles, and I think it is not improper to take some credit for this satisfactory condition to the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act. I think the result secured through the negotiations entered into between employee and employers under the provisions of the act maintained a harmony that was evidenced in our railroad situation throughout the past year. As my hon. friend knows, the mining situation in this country has been somewhat in a class by itself so far as the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act is concerned. In other words, our miners unfortunately have not taken kindly to the provisions of the act and have not always co-operated to the extent we might hope in carrying out its provisions.


William Alves Boys: I quite agree that the results given are most satisfactory. Will the minister state how many boards were constituted last year and in rthat cases they were successful?


James Murdock: Thirty-two boards were established and strikes resulted in two mining cases, one east and the other west. My hon. friend may recall that in the West the strike began on April 1, 1922, with the general coal miners' strike all over the United States almost before we were able to get a board formed and functioning. The strike in District 18 lasted for several months' concurrently with the strike in the United States coal industry.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: Does the minister suggest that the strike to which he has just referred, which involved something over 7,000 men, was settled only by reason of the settlement reached in the United States? Is it not a fact that that strike was settled independently of the difficulty in the United States, and that the work of the, Labour Department in so far as the application of this particular act is concerned was ineffective?


James Murdock: I would not say that the work of the department was altogether ineffective, nor would I agree that the settlement reached at Calgary was independent of
Supply-Labour

the settlement reached in the United States, as documentary evidence on file will indicate. A tentative arrangement, as my hon. friend will recall, was entered into by the operators and the representatives of the United Mine Workers on the 18th of August to recommence operations under certain conditions dependent upon the scale of wages finally adopted in the central competitive field of Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana and a portion of Illinois. Within a few days after entering into that agreement they appointed the Minister of Labour as arbitrator to determine when that time arrived, and within a very few days it was necessary for us to wire to both the operators and the miners in the western territory that the rates which had been in effect during the preceding year must continue in force in accordance with what had been settled in the central competitive field. But so far as the actual board is concerned, I could not indicate that it did any particular good during the time that it was investigating the trouble. It was handicapped at the start from the fact that the men in District 18 intended to be governed by what was done in the central competitive field, as the final basis of settlement indicates.


Hugh Guthrie: Would the minister let this item stand? I know there are some hon. members absent to-night who want to discuss it.


Mr. SUTHERLAND:: l5oes the number of days stated by the minister include strikes in Nova Scotia only?


James Murdock: The figure includes
strikes in both Nova Scotia and Alberta. The days lost in Nova Scotia were 258,354; in Alberta, 931,960.
Item stands.
Administration, Employment Offices Co-ordination Act, $30,000.


Hugh Guthrie: There is some cutting down in this item.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: W'hat is the reason for the reduction?


James Murdock: The amount asked is $30,000, a reduction of $15,000 from the appropriation for 1922-23. The appropriation is intended to cover expenses incurred in the administration of the Employment Offices Coordination Act. Briefly, the statute empowers the minister to aid and encourage the organization and co-ordination of employment offices, to promote uniformity of methods among them, and to establish clearing houses for the interchange of information between employfMr. Murdock.]
ment offices concerning the transfer of labour and other matters. For the purposes of such organization and co-ordination, provision is made for the distribution among the various provinces annually'' of $150,000. The present vote, however, relates only to expenses incurred in administration and represents disbursements on account of printing, stationery and other supplies, travelling and temporary help There were in January of this year 70 provincial offices and clearing houses, all of which are outfitted from the department with respect to stationery and supplies. It is the intention of the department to close the clearing house at Halifax at the end of the present fiscal year, and that partly accounts for the reduction of $15,000. The duties of the Halifax office are being transferred to Ottawa.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Will the minister be good enough to indicate his attitude with respect to private employment bureaus? I understand there is only one government employment office in New Brunswick, that which is in charge of Mr. Cochrane at Moncton. Some three or four years ago an employment bureau was established at Fredericton, the provincial government paying half the cost of equipment and a portion of the upkeep, the municipality of Fredericton providing offices and so on. The provincial government refused to continue this arrangement, with the result that there was no employment office in the city\ Last autumn a returned soldier who had been in the employ' of the office while it was functioning opened a private employment bureau in Fredericton, thus filling a long felt want. I understand that he was waited upon by an officer- of the Department of Labour and told that it would be illegal for him to continue that office. He consulted me in the matter, and I have been unable to find any statute that would prevent him from maintaining that office, and I so advised him. However, an effort has been made by some officials of this department to have him close up, but th6 effort has been unsuccessful, and there has been no prosecution, so I assume the advice I gave him was correct. Will the minister tell us what his attitude is with regard to private individuals opening employment offices in localities where no such offices are maintained with the co-operation of his department?


James Murdock: My hon. friend is not quite correct in saying that there is only one government employment office in New Brunswick. There is one at Moncton, one at Chatham, and one at St. John.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Does the province contribute to the maintenance of these offices?

Supply-Labour


James Murdock: New Brunswick has all
along hesitated to see the necessity of establishing provincial employment offices but has co-operated in the maintenance of municipal employment offices. I understand that at the St. John office they do provide the premises, the staff being chosen. by the municipality, and the same arrangement prevails at Moncton and Chatham. The federal government pays no more than fifty per cent of the maintenance of these offices. I feel sure that no officer of the Department of Labour ever waited on a gentleman who was conducting an employment office at Fredericton and intimated to him that he should discontinue the office. It is true that the underlying intent of the act is to do away so far as possible with private employment agencies. All the western provinces have discontinued theirs; in Ontario I think about eleven still remain. Generally they have been pretty well abolished all over Canada.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What I have stated to the minister is correct. An officer of his department did call upon the returned soldier to whom I have referred and tried to frighten him out of business.


James Murdock: Could the hon. member give me his name?


Richard Burpee Hanson: I think I could. I will do
it privately; I do not want to injure the gentleman. But the minister's answer is hardly a reply to the query I made as to what is the attitude of the department in respect to the establishment of employment offices by private individuals in localities where no public offices are maintained.


James Murdock: This is a matter over
which the provincial government has control. Our suggestion to them would be, as it has been to all provinces, to discontinue the private employment agencies and co-operate with the federal government in the maintenance of proper employment offices under government regulation and control.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I approve of that policy, but in the absence of any initiative on the part of the provincial government, what is a community to do? The only solution I can see is for the department to extend its operations into that community.


James Murdock: The city of Fredericton has the same opportunity chat any other community has of entering into an agreement with this government. We shall be glad at any time to take the matter up with them.


James Shaver Woodsworth: The minister, under a previous item, mentioned amounts that were lost through strikes. Could he give us an estimate of the amounts lost through unemployment in this country?


James Murdock: When the item which has been held over comes up for discussion,
I imagine we may have a field day on that question. In the meantime I will try to secure the information for my hon. friend. Item agreed to.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr.' Mackenzie King, the House adjourned at 11.35 p.m.
Wednesday, March 28, 1923