1923-04-24

SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS


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Mr. McMASTER presented the fourth report of the special committee appointed to inquire into agricultural conditions, as follows:
Your committee beg to submit the following resolution which they have unanimously adopted, viz:-
Among the various subjects which have been investigated by your committee, they desire to make a report on the question of ocean freights. It is not easy to over-emphasize the importance of cheap ocean transportation to the Canadian farmer.
Whatever advantage may have accrued to the Canadian people by the millions of money spent on the development of our internal transportation system-the building of railways, the digging of canals, the deepening of rivers-such advantage may be in a large measure nullified if freight rates from our ocean ports to foreign countries are fixed at such figures as to absorb the savings which these expenditures have obtained.
Your committee are of the opinion that upon the regular steamship lines trading from Canadian ports the price of transportation service is determined neither by the law of supply and demand, nor on the basis of cost plus a reasonable profit, but that a combine exists among the various shipping companies, which combine is known as the North Atlantic and U.K. Conference Eastward-bound.
The headquarters of this organization are at 8-10 Bridge street, New York, and it includes in its membership a very great number, if not all, of the principal steamship companies operating regular lines out of North Atlantic ports.
According to the witness, Mr. W. H. Chase, Atlantic freight rates are made in New York the first Thursday in every month. (See evidence of Mr. Chase, page 350.) To this North Atlantic Conference belong nearly all, if not all, of the regular steamship lines running from Montreal, including the Canadian Government Merchant Marine. (See evidence of Mr. W. A. Cunningham, Traffic Manager, Page 211). It will be remembered that the Canadian Government Merchant marine, as well as the Canadian National Railways, is operated under the control of a board, and not by a minister of the Crown.
Subsidiary to this* conference there exists a smaller association of steamship men connected with steamship lines trading out of Montreal. This association is called sometimes the Canadian Liner Committee, and sometimes the Weekly Liner Committee. They hold meetings as a rule every Tuesday afternoon at the offices of the companies whose representatives act for the association.
The minutes of various meetings of this association, produced before your committee show that the lines or transportation companies constituting the association are as follows:
Cunard, Anchor Donaldson and Thomson Lines; Canadian Pacific Ocean Services, Ltd.; White Star Dominion Line; Intercontinental Transports, Ltd., (with which certain vessels of the Canadian Steamship Lines, Ltd., are associated); Furness Withy Company, McLean, Kennedy & Company; and the Canadian Government Merchant Marine, Limited. The object of these meetings was very neatly characterized by Mr. L. A. W. Doherty, the representative of one of these lines, as being "to stabilize or keep uniform the situation of ocean transport."
It was contended by the gentleman who represented the Canadian Government Merchant Marine before the committee that the line merely "sat in" with the rest of the steamship lines at the weekly conferences, and that it was not bound in the same manner as the others were bound to maintain rates.
A careful consideration of the evidence hardly supports this contention. It would appear that during the several years the Canadian Government Merchant Marine has been in existence, it has departed from rates so established on four different occasions-one departure, however, covering more than one shipment.
The manner in which the Liner committee operated was as follows:
The general rates were set at the North Atlantic and U. K. Conference in New York, but for the purpose of united action in regard to these and other matters, a weekly meeting was held, at which representatives of all steamship lines attended. At this meeting, rates were agreed upon, and no member of the line had the right to depart from the rates so established without conferring with and warning his competitors of his intention so to do. An earnestly-worded expostulation would be directed by one member to another if this line of conduct was not followed.
This state of affairs brought about the following extraordinary result. The government of the United States forced the Shipping Board of that country which manages the United States governmentally-owned steamers, to make a very low rate for the transportation of flour to Europe-a rate stated by the shipping companies to be below a commercial rate. This rate applied only to flour ground in the United States. To meet this rate, the North Atlantic Conference Lines established, at a given moment, a rate of 15c. per 100 lbs. on flour ground in the United States, while they maintained a rate of 19c. per 100 lbs. on Canadian flour-a very substantial differential against our Canadian millers. To this agreement, as a member of the North Atlantic Conference, the Canadian Government Merchant Marine was a party.
The committee feel in this regard that the vast sums spent by the Canadian people on the development of a merchant marine were never intended to bring about this result.
The committee desire to bring the facts in this regard to the earnest attention of the House, and would respectfully suggest that the Minister of Railways and Canals should take the matter up with the Canadian National Railway Board for consideration and appropriate action.
It would appear that the shipping combine referred to does not include tramp steamers, which can be chartered from time to time, and among which there exists keen competition. These, however, are only available to those shippers who can load a whole steamer; neither do they take the place of regular lines which are able to effect transportation almost with the regularity of express trains, and which, therefore, offer much greater advantages to those who have to ship perishable articles to a market which wishes to have a regular supply.
The boats of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine are not of such construction as permits of their being used as cattle boats, and to convert them for this purpose would be both costly and impracticable.
Evidence was produced showing that since the commencement of the war, ocean rates on cattle had increased by 300 per cent while the price of beef in the British market had only increased 66 per cent during the same period.
Your committee is of the opinion that the continuance of the rates now charged inevitably must have a detrimental effect upon the export cattle trade.
Your committee were also struck with the fact that many of the witnesses connected with trans-Atlantic steamship lines testified that, as a rule, small cargoes
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Patents oj Invention
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were brought from Great Britain to this country, and that this fact tended to increase freight rates on Canadian-eastward-bound traffic over what would be the case if a fair amount of traffic were coming westward as well as going eastward. Thus any policy which diminishes the volume of trade coming from Europe to Canada, tends to increase the cost of transportation from Canada to Europe. The attention of the House is respectfully invited to this fact, and the attention of the government directed to the situation so created.
The whole is respectfully submitted.

Mr. ARCHAMBAULT:: I beg to present several petitions containing about 15,000 names, urging the government to increase the exemption for every child allowed in the Income Tax Act from $300 to $500, to totally exempt the father of five children who has an income less than $5,000, and also urging the government to differentiate between the earned and unearned income. These petitions are signed by members of the Societe St. Jean Baptiste, employees of Dupuis freres, Hudon and Orsali, P. P. Martin and Co., Laporte Martin, Daoust Lalonde & Cie, Hudon Hebert & Co., I'Association Catho-lique des Voyageurs de Commerce du Canada, the citizens of St. Cesaire, of St. Antoine sur Richelieu, of Waterloo, St. Hyacinthe, Quebec, Montreal, Farnham, Ste, Therese, Longueuil and a number of other places in the province of Quebec.



PRIVATE BILLS


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Bill	No.	132	(from	the	Senate),	for	the
relief of John Darton.-Mr. Church.
Bill	No.	133	(from	the	Senate),	for	the
relief of Minnie Eileen Biggs.-Mr. Sheard.
Bill	No.	134	(from	the	Senate)	for	the
relief of Thomas Henry Bottomley.-Mr. Sheard.
Bill	No.	135	(from	the	Senate),	for	the
relief of William Ritchie Dowd.-Mr. Garland (Carleton).

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On the Orders of the Day:
Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: Can the Minister of Finance tell us what day the budget will be delivered?


Mr. FIELDING:: I have considered the matter several times but I am sorry to say I cannot make any definite statement at present.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Can the minister sav whether it will be next week or not?


William Stevens Fielding: I am hopeful but I cannot make any definite statement now. However, I will give my hon. friend reasonable notice.



PENSIONS COMMITTEE-INTERIM REPORT

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On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. ARTHURS:: Does the government intend printing the interim report of the Pensions committee now sitting?


Mr. BELAND:: A motion has already been made to have 1,000 copies printed in English and 1,000 in French.



THE FRENCH TREATY

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On the Orders of the Day:
William Stevens Fielding: It had been arranged, as announced last night, that we would take up to-day the further consideration of the French treaty, but I understand that the leader of the Opposition (Mr. Meighen) desires that it be postponed, and we acquiesce in that request. I therefore suggest that we take up Order No. 27.



PATENTS OF INVENTION

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House again in committee on Bill No. 20, to amend and consolidate the Acts relating to Patents of Invention, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
On section 40-Powers of commissioner:
Hon. J. A. ROBB (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: This section was allowed to stand for conference between the commissioner and the hon. member for South Simcoe (Mr. Boys). I now move, seconded by that hon. member, that section 40 be amended by striking out paragraphs (c) and (d) of subclause 1 thereof, and substituting therefor the following:
The commissioner shall then consider the petition, and if the parties do not come to an arrangement between themselves shall proceed to hear and determine the matter, and if it is proved to his satisfaction that the reasonable requirements of the public with respect to the patented invention have not been satisfied, the patentee may be ordered by him to supplj the patented article within reasonable limits at such price as may be fixed by him and in accordance with the custom of the trade to which the invention relates as to payment and delivery, or to grant licenses foi the use of the patented invention as may be fixed by him, in either case within and after such time as may be fixed by him and on pain of forfeiture of the patent.
Provided that such an order shall not be made before the expiration of three years from the date of the patent and not less than one year after the passing of this act, or if the patentee gives satisfactory reasons for his default. And provided further, tha1 having regard to the nature of the case, the commis-

Patents of Invention
sioner may with the approval of the minister, instead of hearing and determining the matter himself, refei the petition to the Exchequer Court, which shall have jurisdiction in the premises and may make such ordei thereon as the commissioner is authorized to make under this section.
And by adding the following sub-clause to said clause 40:
(2) Any decision of the commissioner under this section shall be subject to appeal to the Exchequer Court.
Section as amended agreed to.


James Alexander Robb: Will you refer back, Mr
Chairman, to clause No. 5? In view of the extended powers just given under this amendment it is necessary to add to clause 5 anothei section. Therefore I beg to move, seconded by the hon. member for South Simcoe (Mr. Boys):
That clause 5 be amended by adding thereto the following subsection:
(2) For the purposes of this act the commissioner shall have all the powers that are or may be given by the Inquiries Act . to a commissioner appointed under part 2 thereof.


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Amendment agreed to.
Section as amended agreed to.
James Alexander Robb: Mr. Chairman, I desire to
refer to section 61 and to move, seconded by the hon. member for South Simcoe (Mr. Boys):
That there, be added to section 61 the following clause:
In all cases where an appeal is provided from the decision of the commissioner to the Exchequer Court under this act, such appeal shall be had and taken pursuant to the provisions of the Exchequer Court Act and the rules and practice of the said court.


Mr. MEIGHEN:: That amendment does
not seem appropriate to section 61, which deals only with costs; it should be a separate section.


James Alexander Robb: It is an independent section.


Mr. BOYS:: It was arranged in the conference I had with the commissioner that there would be a heading to it as well, namely, Appeals.


James Alexander Robb: That is marked on the order
before the Chairman. The section will be No. 61a.
Section 61a agreed to.


James Alexander Robb: Mr. Chairman, it appears
from the records before the law officers that section 21 was not passed as amended.


The CHAIRMAN:: It was allowed to stand.


James Alexander Robb: I beg to move the following
amendment:
That section 21 be struck out and the following substituted therefor:
136J
20. In case of conflicting applications for any patent, the same shall be submitted to the arbitration of three skilled persons, two of whom shall be chosen by the applicants, one by each, and the third of whom shall be chosen by the commissioner; and the decision or award of such arbitrators, or of any two of them, delivered to the commissioner in writing and subscribed by them or any two of them, shall be final, as far as concerns the granting of the patent.
2.	If either of the applicants refuses or fails to choose an arbitrator, when required so to do by the commissioner, and if there are only two such applicants, the patent shall issue to the other applicant.
3.	If there are more than two conflicting applications, and if the persons applying do not all unite in appointing three arbitrators, the commissioner may appoint the three arbitrators for the purposes aforesaid.
4.	The arbitrators so named shall subscribe and take before a judge of any court of record in Canada, an oath in the form following, that is to say:-
"I, the undersigned (A.B.), being duly appointed an arbitrator under the authority of the Patent Act, do hereby solemnly swear or (affirm, as the case may be), that I will well and truly perform the duty of such arbitrator on the conflicting applications of (C.D. and E.F.) submitted to me."
5.	The arbitrators, or any one of them, when so sworn, may summon before them any applicant or other person, and may require him to give evidence on oath, orally or in writing (or on solemn affirmation if such applicant or person is entitled to affirm in civil cases), and to produce such documents and things as such arbitrators deem requisite to the full investigation of the matters into which they are appointed to examine, and they shall have the same power to enforce the attendance of such applicants and other persons, and to compel them to give evidence, as is vested in any court of justice in civil cases, in the province in which the arbitration is held.
6.	The fees for the services of such arbitrators shall be a matter of agreement between the arbitrators and the applicants, and shall be paid by the applicants who name them, respectively, except those of the arbitrator or arbitrators named by the commissioner, which shall be paid by the applicants jointly.


William Alves Boys: The commissioner is now taking more responsibility under the amendments that have been agreed to. So why not let him take this degree of responsibility in connection with conflicting applications? Possibly they would be even more appropriate for his attention in the first instance than some other matters. I really thought that was understood, although I admit it was not discussed this morning between myself and the commissioner. The other day we discussed the arbitration features in the old act and it was generally agreed that they were very cumbersome and led to great delay and unnecessary expense. I would suggest that the section should provide that in cases of conflicting applications for any patent the commissioner should first determine the matter, subject to appeal to the Exchequer Court.


James Alexander Robb: The commissioner assures me that it is proposed to simplify the regulations and provide for this.


William Alves Boys: In view of the statutory provision here that the commissioner must send
Patents of Invention

the matter to the Exchequer Court, I do not think he could pass regulations defining a totally different practice.


James Alexander Robb: The commissioner assures me-that he desires this power with a view to bringing the parties together, but that under the regulations he has in mind he will simplify it very much. With that assurance I think my hon. friend might allow the amendment to go through.


Mr. GUTHRIE:: As I understand it, Mr. Chairman, the bill as introduced omitted the arbitration sections that were in the former act. When the matter was up on Friday night I moved an amendment to the effect that in the case of conflicting applications and claims the matter in the first instance should be decided by the Commissioner of Patents, and that his decision should be subject to appeal to the Exchequer Court. The complaint against the old system of arbitration was that it was cumbersome, dilatory and expensive, and all parties interested seemed to have confidence in the judgment of the commissioner to decide the conflicting applications, which amount to about 90 per cent of the cases, I understand. It would simplify and expedite matters very much and save considerable expense if the commissioner would decide these cases as they come up. It is not a final decision, because if the parties are not satisfied they can go to the Exchequer Court. In the original bill as introduced by the minister he left out the arbitration clauses, and I think it is a piece of foolishness to seek to restore them now. If that is what the amendment means I am certainly opposed to it.


James Alexander Robb: It is true that the arbitration clauses were omitted from the bill as introduced, but they were restored at the request of many who have business with the Patent office, and who desire to have this privilege of arbitration available to them. I am not sure that it would be wise for parliament to take away the privilege. Why not retain this feature? It will do no harm.


Hugh Guthrie: The minister took it away in the first instance.	.


James Alexander Robb: Yes, but there have been
objections.


The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Marcil):: Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the new clause 21?


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Section agreed to.
On section 30-Assignments in case of joint applications:
I Mr. Boys.]
James Alexander Robb: This section is marked, "stand." It is an old clause. The former Minister of Finance (Sir Henry Drayton) and the member for Brome (Mr. McMaster) offered some objections which they afterwards withdrew, and we understood that the clause had passed.


William Alves Boys: I think I remember raising a question as to the validity of the assignment. As it stands now, section 30 reads:
In cases of joint applications or grants, every assignment from one or more of the applicants or patentees to the other or others, or to any other person, shall be registered in like manner as other assignments.
The question arises at once, if it is not registered, is It null and void, or is it only to be null and void as against subsequent purchasers or assignees without notice? The suggestion I made was to draft an amendment which would put it beyond peradventure.


James Alexander Robb: We were leaving this clause in because of its venerable age. The com-misioner prefers that it be dropped altogether rather than that it be amended.


William Alves Boys: I think it would be better to strike it out if it is not amended. It is covered by section 29, anyway.


James Alexander Robb: I move that section 30 be
struck out.


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Amendment agreed to, and section 30 struck out.
Mr. STEVENS:: Before you leave the bill I wish to point out what would appear to be an unintentional error in wording or in arrangement. Section 65 provides for the repeal of the old act, with the exception of 5a, which is not repealed. The object of 5a is to cover the appointment of the commissioner. It says:
The Governor in Council may appoint a person who has held the office of Deputy Minister of Agriculture to be Commissioner of Patents.
And so on. That means that if the person now holding the position of Commissioner of Patents should leave the office, the Governor in Council could not appoint anyone who had not been a deputy minister of agriculture. I do not suppose we could find anyone who has been a deputy minister of agriculture who would know the first thing about patents, so that that will certainly have to be corrected before section 65 is adopted. The provision is made, quite properly, to cover the case of the present incumbent. There is no objection to that; I am merely pointing out what the effect of the clause will be in regard to future appointments.

Animal Contagious Diseases


James Alexander Robb: The commissioner points out that this clause was put in to meet his particular case, and that if to-morrow we were appointing a commissioner of patents he would not have the standing of a deputy minister.


Henry Herbert Stevens: My hon. friend has not caught my point. Section 5a is retained, and under it you cannot appoint to the position of Commissioner of Patents anyone who has not been a deputy minister of agriculture. That was all right as applying to the present incumbent in the office; there is no quarrel about that, but for future appointments a different provision must be made.


James Alexander Robb: I think clause 3 of this bill covers that point.


Henry Herbert Stevens: But you are retaining 5a. I do not advance this as my own opinion only; others who have given consideration to the matter have the same opinion-that this calls for the appointment of someone who has had experience as a deputy minister of agriculture. If we are perfectly sure of it, of course my objection falls, but I think we ought to be very sure before the bill is passed.


James Alexander Robb: The commissioner tells me
that this has been worked out by the law officers. If in the future we appoint as Commissioner of Patents a man who has previously been deputy minister of agriculture, he comes under 5a; otherwise clause 3 covers the appointment.


Hugh Guthrie: With all due respect to the minister, it seems to me that if he retains clause 5a the inference is very strong that the next Commissioner of Patents must have been a deputy minister of agriculture.


James Alexander Robb: Oh, no.


Hugh Guthrie: I cannot see it in any
other way. Is there any reason for retaining it? Of course if the minister wants to take the risk, we cannot do any more; we have pointed it out.
Bill, as amended, reported, read the third time and passed.



SALE AND INSPECTION OF FRUIT AND FRUIT CONTAINERS

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Hon. W. R. MOTHERWELL (Minister of Agriculture) moved the third reading of Bill No. 11, to regulate the Sale and Inspection of Fruit and Fruit Containers.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.

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House again in committee on Bill No. 115, to amend the Animal Contagious Diseases Act, Mr. Marcil in the chair.
George Newcombe Gordon: The clauses have all been adopted. Shall I report this bill?


Mr. LEADER:: Before the bill passes I would like to ask the minister if he thinks a sufficient amount has been provided in the estimates this year to take care of the necessary expenses under this act?


Mr. MOTHERWELL:: The estimates are based on the assumption that this reduction in compensation will be made. Since the main estimate went through, a supplementary estimate for $100,000 has been brought down for this purpose. I do not think it has yet gone through, but with this supplementary estimate, plus the reduction in compensation, we think we shall have enough to take care of the requirements this year fairly well.


Harry Leader: Is it the intention of the minister to withdraw the regulation that calls for at least ten pure-bred cattle before a breeder can participate in the accredited herd plan?


William Richard Motherwell: That is a matter that has been discussed many times. It is a question of how few cattle we will send a man out to inspect at one time. If we reduce the present number of ten to, say, six, the man with only four cattle would think it should be reduced still further to four, and if that were done somebody else would want it reduced still further. There is a point at which it does not pay to send out an inspector, entailing all the necessary expenses, to examine a herd of cattle. Up to the present we have thought that in view of the expense ten was the minimum number we could send out a man to inspect. That is a matter of opinion. I do not feel very strongly on it, for I should like to meet the wishes of the man with the small herd, because after all the man that is starting right will be apt to stay right. There is a good deal to be said in favour of inspecting these smaller herds, but it is really a question of expense of administration. I should be very glad to discuss this matter with my hon. friend.	I might point out
that my recollection is that the regulation can be changed without any reference to the bill whatever.


Harry Leader: I realize that the minister wishes to do what is right in the matter, but according to the figures he gave the House

Animal Contagious Diseases
some time ago there are about 156 applications still on the waiting list for which the government cannot provide inspection. Am I right in that?


William Richard Motherwell: I think that is the number.


Harry Leader: In view of that I do not feel inclined to protest against the passing of this bill. I belong to a fraternity that I think cannot be said to be altogether selfish, and if the maximum compensation is placed at $200. and that is considered too much, as a breeder I can only give my consent t-o accepting a lower compensation in view of the fact that the government find it necessary to impose this regulation calling upon a breeder to have at least ten pure-bred cattle before he can participate in the benefits under the act. I happen to know something about this business. When I was at home at Easter I attended a farmers' meeting and this question was brought up. One man in that locality said that he had had an application on file since last fall and could not get the government to act. It was the consensus of opinion at that meeting that the farmers in that district, at any rate, were so anxious regarding tuberculosis in cattle that they would be willing to do without any compensation if they could get the government to inspect their cattle for. them. I pointed out to them that they could pay a local veterinary and have the work done in that way, but they felt that they would have more confidence in a test made by a regular government inspector. In view of that I shall not protest the right of the government to lower the compensation.
I am sure the minister would be glad to hear the views of the members of this House and especially of the breeders, on this question, and I would like to take this opportunity to make a few remarks. Last year when this bill was up a similar reduction was proposed. Some of us did- not believe that that reduction should be made, and I still believe that the rmnister was well advised when he agreed to make the maximum compensation $200 instead of $150. The minister has said that it is a general practice with inspectors to give the maximum compensation irrespective of whether the animal is entitled to it or not.


William Richard Motherwell: I think my hon. friend has misunderstood me. That is rather a strange interpretation of what I said.


Harry Leader: I think the minister will bear me out that that was the implication of what he said at all events. * I wish to state
fMr. Leader.]
emphatically that as regards Dr. Still and his contingent, of inspectors in western Canada, as far as I can find out they have been absolutely fair. I believe they are doing a great-work out there, and Dr. Still especially I believe is the right man in the right place. People are becoming greatly interested in this accredited herd plan, and I would be very sorry to see it get a black eye. The minister has indicated that he is going to inaugurate a new system called the free area plan. I am in sympathy with that idea. I believe it is the ideal system, but it is going to cost a lot to clean up these areas and inspect every herd of pure-bred and grade cattle, and I do not think we have come to the point where we can adopt that system on a large scale. There is also a measure of compulsion in regard to it, and some men will always back up against compulsion and will not agree to compulsory measures. I think the best plan for the government in this matter would be the voluntary submission of breeders to the accredited herd plan. I know that it is very popular in the West and has made rapid strides. I would be very sorry for the government to do anything that would give the cattle industry a set back. We in the West and in the portion from which I come especially, have come to the conclusion that we must change our system of farming, change from grain growing exclusively to more diversified farming, and the raising of live stock is the plan we shall have to follow. We are going into that business more and more in the West and are providing facilities to take care of it. In the West already 2,000 silos have been built, and to show the strides this business is making I might mention that 500 silos were built last year.. We are trying to supply cattle for the market that is developing in the Old Country and a black eye to the industry at this time would have the effect of discouraging efforts along that particular line. The good health of the Canadian cattle was a very important factor in inducing the Old Country to lift the embargo. In this connection I would quote from a speech made by Major G. Paget, Unionist member for Bosworth, in the British parliament during the debate there on this subject. He said:
They knew that Canada was extremely free from
disease.
I will also quote from the speech of the Right Hon. E. G. Pretyman, Unionist member for Chelmsford, who said:
That perhaps the strongest plank in the Canadian case was the absolute immunity of Canadian cattle from any form of virulent disease over a long period
of years.

Animal Contagious Diseases
In the House of Lords, when the bill was being discussed there, Lord Askwith made this statement:
On the other hand, it was proved up to the hilt that since the year 1896, and for even a longer period, there had been no really serious disease in Canada, and that the claim for keeping Canadian cattle out was not a good one.
I maintain that if we are going to develop that trade with the Old Country we must not do anything to jeopardize the demand which now exists there for our cattle.
I would like to take a moment or two to deal with another point, because I may not have another opportunity of doing so. The responsibility devolves upon the government of helping the Canadian farmer take advantage of the live stock Trade with Great Britain. When we were assured that the embargo would be lifted stock men in this country were advised to feed all the good cattle they possibly could in order to take advantage of the opportunity when the time for making shipments came. The result was that a great many farmers throughout the Dominion devoted themselves to feeding the necessary stock hoping thereby to derive the revenue therefrom that was so badly needed. It was brought out before a parliamentary committee and reported to the House to-day -I do not know whether I am in order in discussing it or not-that a combine exists on the north Atlantic which affects adversely the shipping of Canadian products. The steamship companies, as early as last December, gave out the information that the ocean rate on cattle transported from Canada to the Old Country would be $15 per head. This rate was a considerable reduction from the former charge and was a further encouragement to the farmers to feed cattle for the British market. The fact that the ocean rate for cattle had been reduced to $15 per head was widely distributed and the propaganda carried on by the Dominion authorities, and the steamship companies, was responsible for a great revival of interest in the live stock trade. But what did the producers find when they had their cattle ready for the market? The same old story-big interests in the form of the North Atlantic Steamship combine boosted the rates; shippers of cattle were informed that no space was available for Canadian stock at the $15 rate, but that the rate would be $22.50, then $25, and even $30 has been mentioned as a possible rate. Is it any wonder that the farmers of this country have lost their morale in the face of such unjust discrimination? I think that this government can be fairly charged with negligence in not providing ample, space.


William Richard Motherwell: What would my
hon. friend suggest should be done?


Harry Leader: The government should have insisted on reasonable ocean rates being granted in the interest of the primary producers. Indeed we might use a stronger term in the face of the fact that our government-owned merchant marine is a party to the combine that exists, sits in conference in a city in a foreign country and sets the rates that Canadian steamships shall charge to transport Canadian goods. Now the advance of $10 per head in freight rates means a heavy loss for the people of this country. Who will suffer by reason of that extra $10 being squeezed out of the farmer? Every retail store in Canada, every manufacturer in Canada, every bank, every loan company, indeed every man, woman and child is affected by the contraction or restriction of the spending power of the farmer.
I speak for the farmers of western Canada upon whom transportation costs bear most heavily, and I declare that the time has come-indeed it is long overdue-when the government should insist on a fair measure of relief not only for the producers of the AVest but the producers of the whole of the Dominion. In concluding my remarks I wish to state this: We have a brand new government, with a very capable Minister of Agriculture, and we want a little ser-
4 p.m. vice. We would expect the late government, who catered to the "big interests," to display inertia in matters of this kind. From the present government, however, we expected better treatment and we are still hoping fqr an improvement in that regard.


Mr. AT ALLACE:: In the matter of the
restriction of the number of cattle tested, it is likely to operate to the disadvantage of the small breeder who will be unable to sell his pure-bred cattle owing to the fact that they are not tested. I myself would not buy purebred cattle unless they were tested. If the minister and the department could see their way clear to the removal of this restriction, which limits the number of cattle to be tested to ten, it would be a good thing because it certainly works out in a way that is detrimental to the breeder who has but a small herd.	[DOT]


Mr. CALDWELL:: I find no great objection to reducing the amount of indemnity for purebred cattle that are slaughtered after being condemned under the tuberculin test. I would like, however, to urge upon the minister that he should not discontinue the policy of testing

Animal Contagious Diseases
herds for tuberculosis. It is one of the diseases that menaces not only our dairy herds but also the people as well-possibly being transmitted largely through dairy products and the meat of the beef animal. Although I am a breeder of pure-bred stock myself I see no great objection to reducing the indemnity. In fact, as far as I am personally concerned, I would be willing to forego the indemnity for condemned animals if the testing of herds is carried on-that is, if it is necessary to discontinue the indemnity in order to carry on the testing for tuberculosis, I would rather see that take place than discontinue the testing.
With regard to the limitation as to the number of animals, I would also like to urge upon the minister not to put this restriction on the man with less than ten pure-bred animals. For example, in the province from which I come we are just beginning in the pure-bred stock line of business. A great many men there have less than ten head of purebred cattle; we are simply beginning to change our methods of farming there, of going into mixed farming and keeping more cattle. [DOT] A man who is buying pure-bred cattle to-day will not buy from a herd that is not tested. This handicaps a man who has less than ten cattle while his neighbour who, perhaps, is in a better position to carry on stock breeding, or has been at it longer, has the advantage of having his herd tested. I would urge very strongly on the minister to continue the policy of testing cattle for tuberculosis.


Mr. MacLEAN (Prince P.E.I.):: I would
like to support what the hon. member for Carleton, N.B. has just said, the same thing applies to cattle in the province of Prince Edward Island. We have a number of small breeders there and this restriction, I think, would be very hard on them. The small breeder would be prevented from having his cattle properly tested and thereby, possibly, lose the sale of his stock. I am also thoroughly in favour of good grade cattle being given the benefit of testing the same as pure-bred stock. Has a veterinary inspector employed by the Department of Agriculture the privilege of charging the man who applies to have his cattle tested a fee in addition to the regular salary which is paid to him?


Mr. McBRIDE:: Hon. members have
spoken in connection with the restriction of the number of cattle entitled to be tested to ten, but no one has given any reason why the owners of four or five head-should not bring their battle together and have them tested at the same time. Some years
TMr. Caldwell.]
ago there was supposed to be scurvy among the. cattle in the district in which I lived. The man who was to inspect gave us notice when he would arrive and when he came out we had at least 3,000 head of cattle gathered together for him to inspect. Why should the people not help the government in this respect, get the cattle together, notify the inspector and have them inspected at the same time? I see no reason why they should not.


William Richard Motherwell: A certain amount of co-operation between these people and the government officials is being undertaken. When we get three or four cattle together, we test them; even if there are only two we test them. I am disposed to accept smaller herds than ten. I think we can cut that figure in two, and perhaps economize in some other way, and help to make up for the additional expense, especially if a little preparation is made, as suggested by the hon. member for Cariboo (Mr. McBride).
Just running over a few memoranda I have taken, I recall that I was reported as almost making the remark attributed to me by the hon. member for Portage la Prairie. What I intended to say, at all events, was that the higher the indemnity, naturally the higher the appraisement would be. There was no question about that. The higher the maximum valuation was permitted in the statutes, the higher the appraisement would be by the veterinarians. That is so logical that it is not necessary to demonstrate it at all. There is another feature about it, and that is that with the natural good-nature and sympathetic attitude of any man who has a heart towards the man who owns the cattle, he will be sufficiently desirous of doing the last thing for the man, without putting up the possible valuation higher than we desire, and I have to thank my hon. friend for taking the moderate view he takes on this occasion. One of the reasons for the shortage of last year's estimate was due to the fact that it was based upon a smaller valuation than finally decided upon in this House. My estimate of the shortage was about 850,000. As a farmer myself, looking at it from the farmer's standpoint, some years ago I naturally wTould look for as high an appraisement in reason as I could get, but, having to administer the act and being confined to a certain fixed amount of money with which to take care of the work, I can see that if you go beyond a certain point you do not get the maximum results with the minimum amount of money. Furthermore, if you give too high an appraisement there is a temptation on the part of the man to be careless

Animal Contagious Diseases
about the re-contracting of the disease. Another reason why we were short-and I am sure my hon. friend will appreciate this-was because we conducted a certain amount of work of an experimental nature in Manitoba, in my hon. friend's own province, covering three municipalities. That has given satisfactory results and we have obtained valuable information, and a certain number of applicants throughout Manitoba have had to wait longer-


Harry Leader: Will the minister not admit that that is an expensive way of doing it?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes, but at the same time before we can discuss that question with other provinces or municipalities, we must have data. The only way to get the data was to try it out. We have found that there is a less amount of disease amongst Manitoba cattle than we anticipated. Slightly more than 5 per cent of those cattle were proved to be re-actors, and that is very satisfactory, considering the complaints in other countries. So that the extra work done in this direction in Manitoba naturally lessens what we are able to do in other directions. At the same time I may say that it is not our intention to go forward at this time with any additional restricted area, particularly when we have so many waiting applicants on the list for individual herds to be tested. We have got the information, and we can discuss this thing now both with provincial and municipal authorities, with the hope in the not distant future of evolving a scheme that will cover the country-I would not say the entire country, but with the view of taking it up in large blocks, not in intermittent spaces, such as we are doing at the present time.
I do not know whether my hon. friend was in order; but if so I presume I would also be in order; however I do not intend to go very much into the question of cattle space. Obviously, a new business requires a certain re-adjustment of space. The business of shipping stockers to the Old Country, after being suspended for thirty years, has been restored. Nobody could expect the ordinary trade would be able to meet the sudden demand all in a minute. It is rather gratifying to me to find the cattle are there demanding the space, and neither now nor at any time previous have we ever been more than 200 head short of the space requirements. I know there have been a number of interviews in the papers about wanting space for 1,000 head, but at no time has there been a space shortage of more than 200 head. I think that is getting pretty close*
As to negligence, I think the Acting Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Graham) should deal with the question of the mercantile marine. But while I am on my feet I might point out that the evidence in the report referred to by my hon. friend this afternoon went to show that the boats comprising the mercantile marine cannot be converted into cattle boats, and that is the only available medium that I know of by which we can increase the space in time to take care of the situation. The cost of changing these vessels from cargo boats into cattle boats would be prohibitive, and in the end we would not have a boat which was suitable for the trade. In the middle of the negotiations and the discussion as to space-[DOT] just to let my hon. friend and the House know that we were not negligent-if the situation had grown worse, and if we had had demand for space for 1,000 head more than could be supplied, we had the opportunity of negotiating a transaction with a New York firm of vessel owners, who were prepared to put on a fleet of vessels capable of carrying 2,000 head each. That proposition was submitted to us. However, it would have taken some weeks for even that fleet to have got ready, and by that time the ordinary sailings would be able to take care of the shipments.


Mr. MILLAR:: Did the minister notice in the press a few days ago a report to the effect that the British people were under the impression that the Canadian government had not adhered strictly to the agreement in shipping cattle? They were objecting that the Canadians were shipping cattle that were finished. They claimed that the agreement called upon the Canadian government to ship store cattle, and they were objecting that the cattle were finished.


William Richard Motherwell: I think there was room for a little objection on the part of the British authorities there. The shippers of fat cattle were taking advantage of the removal of the embargo and were also shipping stockers, thus giving them two strings to their bow. Thev could sell them either as stockers, or as cattle readv for the block. The law did not forbid that, and that is thi reason the shippers took advantage of the opportunity. It is quite possible there might be some amendment made to the act to remedv that: I do not know about that. But I do not think the public is objecting very much. I do not think there is any violation of the spirit of the act, nor do I think there is anv violation of the letter of the act. But that was not what the British dealer had

Animal Contagious Diseases
in mind. It was not the fat cattle, but it was the feeders because there is more profit on the feeders to the farmer than on the fat cattle. I think I have shown that this matter has not been neglected at all. We have been in complete touch with the situation from the beginning to the present moment.
When you consider that this is a new business and that after many years we have come within two hundred spaces of meeting the situation there is not much ground for complaint. As regards the suggestion of someone in authority advising the farmers to feed all the cattle they could and then neglecting to provide space for them, there is no ground for that complaint either. I have not the article by me, but I remember that when the embargo removal was announced I wrote on the subject specifically pointing out that farmer's and stockmen must not expect too much from this new avenue of disposition, especially for low grade cattle. I stated that low grade cattle could not carry themselves so far and that if farmers wanted to avail themselves of the new trade they must improve their animals, because only high class well-bred cattle were in demand in the new market. One of the agricultural journals of Ontario reprimanded me, rather gently, I admit, for not speaking more pointedly about the new market instead of warning them that only high class animals were of any use or could carry themselves that distance.
The hon. member for Carleton (Mr. Caldwell) seemed to be rather apprehensive that we would discontinue the work of testing. Let me assure him that there is no thought of that; we are going to carry on that work as we have done in the past. The second test has been taken care of all spring and it is a very necessary work, because if you neglect it you simply retrograde to where you were before. I may point out that this market has taken up a considerable number of our veterinarians. As I pointed out when the Main Estimates were under consideration, the amount of money we should require would depend in a measure on how many of the veterinarians were requisitioned when the new work of shipping cattle overseas got under way. Inasmuch as one veterinarian must go over with every shipment of one hundred or more, it will require from forty to fifty of these men to attend to the trade, and therefore I may possibly be under the necessity of asking the Minister of Finance to give me more money for this additional expenditure before the end of the term. An hon. member from Prince Edward Island-I forget his constituency-asked what charges were made by 
the veterinary for testing cattle. If the veterinary is a member of the staff and is sent out in the usual way there is no charge. If however he is not a membef of the staff then of course the charge depends on the man himself; we have no control over that. Let me again assure my hon. friend from Portage la Prairie that I appreciate very much his attitude to this bill. I think we shall get better results for less money by giving this amount of valuation than if we were to allow a higher one.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I understood the minister to say that he was not discontinuing the testing of cattle for tuberculosis. Is that right?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I thought that the minister had told us that he was accepting applications but was not undertaking new work.


William Richard Motherwell: We will go ahead; we are preparing to start now.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: The minister told us that the reason he had discontinued was the fact that he was $50,000 short last year.


William Richard Motherwell: Yes, that is so.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I notice, however, that he has brought down this year an appropriation for $285,000 less than he asked for last year. I see in the supplementaries a sum of $100,000 to carry on with, but still that would leave the minister $185,000 under last year's appropriation.


William Richard Motherwell: There is another supplementary in prospect.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I am only anxious to have an assurance that the minister is not going to discontinue the testing of cattle. If I thought he intended to do that I would oppose strongly the lowering of the indemnity. However, if he purposes to carry on this work, I would want to see it done without too great an expenditure. If he is not going to take on new work, though, I do not see the reason for interfering with the present arrangement, because if you do not test new cattle you are not going to condemn any.


William Richard Motherwell: My hon. friend is
suggesting trouble that is never going to arise. No one is proposing to discontinue the testing of cattle at all. The statute provides for certain indemnities, and when the vote in the estimates is exhausted there must be a cessation of work. That is what has happened and I have tried to give the reasons for it. Our intention is to start again, and in fact the work

Animal Contagious Diseases
is being organized now. The work of second testing, what we might call the "follow-up" work, has been going on all the time. In Manitoba the work has been occupying the staff to the full all through the winter, and particularly since the traffic has developed as a result of the removal of the embargo. I have nothing more to say, except to remark by the way that I think I have rather proved my inability to make explanations. From the very outset I indicated that we were desirous of continuing the work and that the situation this year was identical with that of last year. Of course, there has always been a certain amount of hang-over accounts from one year which have to run into the next, and the popularity of this work and the desire for cleaning up herds has increased more rapidly than we have money provided to take care of it.


Harry Leader: I desire to follow up the
discussion in regard to the trade we hope to develop with England.


George Newcombe Gordon: I must point out that
the bill before the committee is to amend the Animal Contagious Diseases Act. The minister has been asked a question, to which he has replied, with reference to the raising of the embargo. Further debate in that direction would be out of order.


Harry Leader: I am prepared to abide by
your ruling, Mr. Chairman, but in view of the fact that the health of Canadian cattle is a very important factor in developing trade with Great Britain I thought it might be within the rules to discuss that question a little further.


George Newcombe Gordon: The scope of discussion of questions in committee is laid down in the rules, from which I shall quote for the information of the hon. member. Rule 13, subsection 5, states:
Speeches in Committee of the Whole must be strictly relevant to the item or clause under consideration.
Various authorities emphasize the importance of adhering to this rule as closely as possible.


Harry Leader: I bow to your ruling, Mr. Chairman. I would ask the minister what attitude the department takes in regard to cattle from accredited herds which are shown at exhibitions? What provisions are made to segregate accredited cattle from untested animals? Does the department insist on the exhibition boards providing isolated buildings for accredited cattle? I might state that a great deal of infection takes place as a result of exhibitions. I have an extract which I shall not read but which bears upon this point.
It is a statement by Dr. Mohler, of the United. States Bureau of Animal Industry. He states that the island of Jersey in the Channel islands realized the importance of this matter about three years ago when they discovered the appearance of the disease there. I had always understood that there was no disease on that island but it appears that tuberculosis developed and they traced the disease to show cattle taken to England and passed around the circuit. The authorities since that time have prohibited outside cattle going to English shows. Is the minister making any provision to have accredited cattle isolated from those not tested?


William Richard Motherwell: The exhibition
managers of the boards are becoming more and more anxious to protect their respective members from contagion of this nature as time goes on. Until recently there has not been as much precaution taken in this direction as might have been; the matter has been left largely to the fair managers and the breeders' associations. The same remarks apply to the various pure-bred cattle sales, as well as bull trains and better farming trains. I am of the opinion that now that we have this new trade developed, which can be very easily destroyed by contagion, greater precautions will have to be taken than have been observed in the past. As a matter of fact the question is now under consideration of enforcing such precautions in connection with bull trains and better farming trains and indeed of any of the live stock trains. Hitherto the department, so far as I know, has not interfered except in an advisory capacity with such institutions as my hon. friend has referred to. I have found in my own experience, however, that fair managers and the executive of the various breeders' associations have been reasonably careful in the past in this respect, but not as careful as I think we shall have to be in the future if we are to retain intact our trade that has just recently been opened up with the United Kingdom.


John Millar: Do the figures gathered by the department in relation to tuberculosis indicate to any great extent the conditions under which the disease develops? That is, is there much difference between the health of range cattle and that of stable cattle?


William Richard Motherwell: Until recently
I thought there was a very marked difference and that range cattle were almost exempt from tuberculosis. There used to be that difference ten or fifteen years ago, possibly because we were not so familiar with the trouble and the
Irrigation Act

necessary precautions were not taken to identify it in the packing plants. But more recently we have found tuberculosis even in our buffalo herds, which are never in the stable at all. Consequently the fact of the animals being always out in the sunshine does not seem to ensure absolute immunity from the disease. It has generally been accepted in the past that T.B. in cattle is a stable disease just as in the human family it is a house disease; but we will have to modify our views in that respect because the disease does attack them to the same extent as it does animals more or less confined to stables. The fact that tuberculosis is more general among dairy cattle, which are kept in the stable more than any other cattle, shows that the Spread of I B. is attributable to stable conditions.


Mr. LOVIE:: In the event of a breeder having less than ten pure-bred animals and having enough grade cattle to bring his herd up to the requisite number, would he be entitled to the benefit of government inspection of his herd?


William Richard Motherwell: I am not sure upon that point. I think he would be, because there would be no use of testing the pure-breds unless the grades were submitted to the same test. Speaking from memory, I think the grades would count as part of the ten.


Harry Leader: I know there is great danger of contamination at fairs if the proper pre-' cautions are not taken-


William Richard Motherwell: There is no question about it.
,,Mr' LEADER: -and I realize that unless all the breeders co-operate with the department in carrying out the provisions of this act we will not get the best results from it. A great many of the fair boards in the United States now are adopting the plan of not allowing any cattle to be exhibited unless they can show a clean bill of health in regard to tuberculosis. I think a similar stipulation is very desirable for this country, and I would suggest where exhibition boards are given grants from the federal treasury that they be notified that within one or two years the grants will be withheld unless they stipulate that all cattle shown at their fairs be subjected to the tuberculosis test.


William Richard Motherwell: It is worth considering.
Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.



IRRIGATION ACT AMENDMENT

[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES STEW?ART (Minister of the Interior) moved the second reading of Bill No. 112 to amend the Irrigation Act.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
On section 1-Water areas may be leased for mining purposes:
Henry Herbert Stevens: I think we ought to have a pretty complete explanation of the necessity of this amendment. While it looks comparatively harmless, it may have a very far-reaching effect.


Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil):: No difficulty has arisen to date-I am anticipating perhaps that a question will be asked as to the reason for the retroactive clause at the end of the section-but it has been pointed out by the Justice department that difficulty may arise under the Dominion Lands Act. particularly in relation to mining leases. Under section 7 of the Irrigation Act there is possibility of conflict because that section provides:
Except in pursuance of some agreement or undertaking existing on the thirteenth day of June, one thousand eight hundred and ' ninety-eight, no grant shall be made by the Crown of lands or of any estate therein, in such terms as to vest in the grantee any exclusive or other property or interest in or any exclusive right or privilege with respect to any lake, river, stream or other body of water, or in or with respect to the water contained or flowing therein, or the land forming the bed or shore thereof.
We are advised to do this by the Justice department.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I do not suppose this has anything to do with the famous Hoppe lease controversy?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Certain orders have been passed that some people have called in question in connection with that famous controversy, and I was wondering whether this might happen to be of the same stamp.


Charles A. Stewart: No. Unfortunately nowadays apparently the Hoppe lease figures in any amendments that touch mining regulations.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Yes. it looms up.


Charles A. Stewart: One can scarcely conceive of an area of 1920 acres, which is the area granted for a mining lease, in which there would not be a body of water, and difficulties might arise as to the rights of

Copyright Act
the lessee to go under that area. This amendment is simply to overcome such difficulties.


Hugh Guthrie: Is it intended that this amendment shall give the lessee the right to go under the body of water in mining?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, without reference to the Irrigation Act


Henry Herbert Stevens: Does it affect any other waters besides those under thje Irrigation Act? For instance, mining properties frequently go under waters along the shore. Has the proposed legislation any effect in such cases?


Charles A. Stewart: Under the Irrigation Act the reference is as follows:
Any river, stream, watercourse, lake, creek, spring ravine, canyon, lagoon, swamp,- marsh or other body of water, or in or with respect to the water contained or flowing therein, or any exclusive or perpetual property, interest or privilege in the land forming the bed or shore thereof.
The amendment has particular reference to section 7 of the old Irrigation Act.
Section agreed to and bill reported.


Mr. SPEAKER:: When shall the bill be read the third time?


Henry Herbert Stevens: I would ask that the bill stand for third reading at the next sitting of the House.


Hewitt Bostock: Next sitting of the House.



COPYRIGHT ACT, 1921, AMENDMENT BILL

[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. A. ROBB (Minister of Trade and Commerce) moved the second reading of Bill No. 24, to amend The Copyright Act, 1921.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
On section 2-Licenses; importation:
Hugh Guthrie: Will the minister make some explanation of these clauses that are repealed?


James Alexander Robb: The clauses referred to, 13, 14, 15 and 27 of the Copyright Act of 1921, relate to the importation of copyrighted matter printed in countries other than Canada, particularly in the United States. Although this act was passed in 1921, it was never proclaimed. Certain restrictions were provided by that measure respecting the admission of copyright into Canada, Canadian printers and publishers being given the right, on application to the commissioner and the payment of a license fee, to print the matter so imported, either in serial form or in book form. This, apparently, was contrary to the provisions of the Berne convention. It is contended on the one hand by the authors that the work of the author is the product of his brain and his ingenuity, that it should be his property and that he should have the right to say who should print it, where it should be printed and what sort" of book form it should assume. On the other hand the printers of Canada contend that if the work of an author is not printed in Canada they should have the right, upon the work being sold in Canada and upon the payment by them of an adequate royalty, to publish that work either in serial or in book form, without any regard to the method of binding or the style of printing adopted in the book itself. Now, it is the desire of Canada to come in under the Berne convention, but we cannot do that with these clauses in the act; so it is proposed to repeal them.


Hugh Guthrie: The minister says we
cannot become parties to the Berne convention so long as these clauses remain in our Copyright Act. Will he be so good as to give us his authority for that statement?


James Alexander Robb: We are admitted to the Berne convention through the British authorities, and they have intimated that the act as it now stands will not be acceptable.


Hugh Guthrie: My information is that
there has been no such intimation on the part of the British authorities, but that a certain individual in the city of Ottawa has undertaken to say that probably there would be objection. This individual has also communicated with certain unofficial papers in Switzerland suggesting that there would be objection. But my information is that no objection has been taken as is suggested. Will the minister inform the committee by whom the objection has been made?


James Alexander Robb: This is the memorandum prepared for me by the commissioners who have the matter in charge, and it seems to me we should accept the statement of our own Canadian officials:
The authorities of the International Bureau at Berne have definitely stated that the licensing sections referred to are not in harmony with article 4 of the convention, which provides that authors who are subjects or citizens of any of the countries of the union shall enjoy in countries other than the country of origin of the work the rights which the respective laws grant to natives as well as the rights specially granted by the convention. The enjoyment and the exercise of these rights shall not be subject to the performance of any formality.
Copyright Act


Hugh Guthrie: The memorandum which
the minister has just read states that the authorities of the Berne convention have intimated so and so. My instructions are that no intimation has ever been given by the authorities of the Berne convention that this act is not in every way acceptable to them. What official, what functionary of the Berne convention sent this communication and what was the communication?


James Alexander Robb: The intimation was made in the official publication of the Berne convention.


Hugh Guthrie: I have some information on that, too. The official publication referred to, published an article contributed by a Canadian civil servant, resident here in Ottawa, and that article in what I would call the unofficial organ of the Berne convention is the ground upon which it is now asserted that the act passed by this House in 1921 is not acceptable to the Berne convention. I think the minister should hesitate before accepting an article prepared by a civil servant here in Ottawa as an official communication from the Berne convention that our act is not acceptable.


James Alexander Robb: What evidence has my hon. friend to submit that the information was furnished, as he suggests, by a civil servant in Ottawa?


Hugh Guthrie: I am merely stating information that has been supplied to me in connection with this matter. I do not know any more complicated piece of legislation which comes before the House than this same copyright question. As far back as 1 have been a member of the House and long before I came into the House it has proved a very, very troublesome question. Our first attempt to pass a copyright law was in 1888 or 18S9, and at that time difficulties at once arose with the Imperial government. The Imperial Copyright Act had been passed many years before and had application throughout the whole British Empire, and the moment Canada in 1888 or 1889 sought to pass an act of its own it was looked upon by the authorities in Great Britain as an infringement upon Imperial rights, and rather strained relations existed between the Imperial government and this country in regard to copyright legislation at that time. Sir John Thompson was then Minister of Justice of Canada, and he entered into a long correspondence with the Imperial authorities on the subject of copyright. They at first were inclined to deny the right of the parliament of Canada to pass any copyright

bill at all, having any application, at all events, outside the Dominion of Canada, and it was not until the year 1910, I think, when the late Hon. Sydney Fisher was Minister of Agriculture in Canada that an agreement w'as come to between the Imperial authorities and Canada and the other self-governing dominions upon the subject of copyright.
In the meantime we had a Copyright Act. The act passed in 1889 had been carried into the Revised Statutes of 1906, as it stands there to-day. The disagreement continued between the Imperial and Canadian authorities, but when the late Mr. Fisher attended the Imperial Conference, in the year 1910 an arrangement was come to whereby the Imperial government agreed that not only Canada but. all the self-governing dominions should be entitled ,to pass copyright legislation of their own, and the Imperial Act passed in the year 1911, the year following the conference, recognized the rights of all the Dominions to pass copyright legislation of the r own. In the Imperial Act it was expressly provided that the Imperial law should not apply to Canada or to the other dominions unless the parliaments of those dominions should specially enact the various clauses of the Imperial Act. If we should re-enact the British clauses and bring our law into conformity with Imperial legislation, then the Imperial government undertook to proclaim our * legislation in the London Gazette, and that was held to be sufficient to entitle us to become members of the International Copyright Convention known as the Berne Convention.
AVell, the act of the parliament of Canada was passed, and there were some clauses in the act which it was said at the time were not strictly in accordance with the Imperial act and might in some way cause objection to be raised to our becoming parties to the Berne convention. The matter came up in this House on two or three occasions in the last eight or ten years, but notably in the year 1921. At that time Canadian authors claimed, as they claim now, and I have very great sympathy with their claims, that they should have absolute ownership in the literary, dramatic or musical works which they produced or composed. I think there is a great deal of force in that contention. These works are the product of their own brains and the ownership should be in them, but when you come to a question of disposing of those rights, this question arises:	The
United States is our greatest competitor not only in the matter of publications but in many others which could be mentioned. The United States is not a party to the Berne

Copy right Act
convention. The United States in its copyright law provides that a work must be published in the United States in order to obtain copyright in the United States. The United States printers are entitled to do the work there and earn the wages. The United States book publishers and magazine publishers are entitled to publish their work there, and unless there is publication in the United States copyright cannot be obtained. There are one hundred and twenty million English speaking people in the United States, the greatest book-buying nation probably in the world. Now the Canadian author is in this position: He finds that his best purchaser in the majority of instances is in the United States and the United States publisher says, "I will buy the United States copyright from you, but you must include with it the Canadian copyright too. If you do, I will become a purchaser." So the bargain is struck and then the work is wholly published in the United States.
In the act of 1921 passed by this parliament we inserted clauses to this effect: If a Canadian publisher desires to publish any copyright work in Canada he may apply to the author for permission to do so, but he cannot publish it unless he offers to pay the author the very highest price by way of royalty that the author has received for the American copyright or the right to publish in the United States. We passed another clause which provided that if the author re. fused to make an agreement on these terms, the publisher then might apply to the Copyright branch of the Department of Agriculture and the minister was given power to grant a license to a publisher in Canada to publish the work in Canada on payment to the author of an amount exactly similar to the amount which he was paid by his American publisher.
On the face of it that seemed to be a pretty fair arrangement, an arrangement which would protect the author from any financial loss, and would at the same time give the Canadian publisher the right to publish, and the Canadian printer, of course, employment consequent upon the publication. These clauses were inserted in the act of 1921, which was not passed by this House until there had been a very long and involved conference between all the' parties interested in this question. There was a committee formed and a conference held at which the publishers, the [DOT] printers and the authors were represented, and my information is-I do not vouch for the accuracy of this-that they came to an agreement at that conference, and that agreement was embodied in the act of 1921 which
this parliament passed. So that the clauses which the minister now seeks to strike out from the act of 1921 were all actually agreed upon by the conference of authors, publishers and printers prior to the passage of the act in that session.
There was a suspending clause in the act of 1921 to the effect that the act should not come into force until it was proclaimed by the Governor in Council. Now the act has never been brought into force. There has been no proclamation of that act up to the present time, but in the meantime it is claimed that someone in Ottawa has busied himself to cause friction as between the Canadian authorities and the authorities at Berne, Switzerland, who control the question of international copyright, and a journal of some kind published in Switzerland, called Le Droit D'Auteur, and supposed to have some connection with the International Copyright Bureau at Berne, contains in its issue of July 15, 1921, an article to the effect that the clauses of the Canadian act of 1921 which provide for publication in Canada and the licensing clauses which I have described to the committee are not in accord with the general international convention's principles as they apply to all the nations which belong to that convention. This is an editorial article in a newspaper. It is not signed by anybody. We do not know who wrote it.


James Alexander Robb: Is it dated from Ottawa?


Hugh Guthrie: It is dated July 15, 1921.


James Alexander Robb: Is it dated from Ottawa?


Hugh Guthrie: It is not a letter, it appeared in a paper published in Switzerlandj but responsible people in Ottawa have given me the name, address and other particulars of the man who is said to have written the article. I do not want the name published, but I will submit it to the minister. I understand the gentleman is still in the Civil Service. He has undertaken to point out that the act passed by this parliament in 1921 is at variance with the principles of the Berne convention. The point I make is that the International Copyright Bureau at Berne has not objected. I have asked the minister, and I ask him now, to lay before the committee any objection that has been taken by the proper authorities at Berne, Switzerland, with reference to this legislation. The British authorities have not objected, so I am informed. If they have I ask the minister to give the committee that information. What is the objection? My information is that this same individual
Copyright Act

in Ottawa has started a theory that in all probability the British government will object because there are no license clauses m the British act. Now, I think it is within the knowledge of any man who has looked into the copyright question that there are hardly two nations in the world who belong to the Berne convention who have exactly similar copyright legislation. The English act differs from the Spanish act. and from the Holland act. and from, the Canadian act: there are innumerable differences in all these acts. However, the nations mentioned are all members of the convention so that a citizen of a country which belongs to the Berne convention obtaining a copyright in one country automatically obtains copyright in all countries that are parties to the convention. Unfortunately the United States does not belong to the Berne convention. Unfortunately for Canadian authors the United States is probably the best market which they have. That is the difficulty. I do not think that we can get to the bottom of this question in a committee of this House sitting as we are here. I would suggest to the minister that a special committee be appointed to consider this bill and let the persons interested-authors, printers, and publishers-state their views before that committee. I have had communications as no doubt the minister has had, and probably every member of the committee, from printers, authors, the Canadian Manufacturers' Association, and from publishers. There is a great difference of opinion on the question but how are we going to come to a satisfactory agreement. These several parties did agree in 1921 and we carried that agreement into legislation. Now somebody has started the trouble over again and has intimated that the Berne convention will not accept this legislation. I doubt very much if the Berne convention has passed on it at all. If the minister has any formal objection from the officers of the International Copyright Bureau, or if he has any protests from the proper officials of the Imperial government, I would like very much if he would lay such before the committee, because the inference I draw from the information which has reached me is that no formal objection has been taken. If objection has been taken by the Imperial authorities I can only say they have objected before to our copyright legislation. However, their objections were found to have no foundation and subsequently were entirely waived by the Imperial government. It is quite possible that to-day there are publishers in Great Britain who do not like our present 
legislation. They did not like our copyright law in 1888 and 1889; thev did not like it in 1910 when Mr. Fisher went over to London and carried his point before the British government. It is quite possible thev may take objection now, but we want to examine into the validity, weight and force of the objections. We must not recede from our position simply because of the fact that the Imperial government object; it is quite possible that we have the constitutional right to pass our legislation notwithstanding the	British government's objection. That
was a point which was raised in 1889. I have	before me Canadian	Constitutional
Studies in which this very question is dealt with. The point is this: The British parliament certainly has the legal right to pass such legislation as	it may deem
5 p.m. proper. It has the legal right to change our whole	constitution if
it wants to but constitutionally it cannot do so. Mr. Keith in referring to this very question as described in the work referred to says:
His (Sir John Thompson's) constitutional claim could not possibly have been resisted for a moment, if seriously examined. To insist that Canada should conform her copyright legislation to that of the United Kingdom, merely to please the publishers in the latter, was constitutionally a monstrous doctrine, nor can it be wondered that the minister described the state of the law as odious and unjust.
The Imperial parliament has the legal right to do as it pleases; constitutionally it has no right to do so. Therefore, I think if exception has been taken by the Imperial authorities to the act of 1921 the law officers of this government should look very carefully into the question to see if the act which we passed is not constitutionally within our rights. If it is then I think we should uphold it.	In
the meantime my suggestion to the minister in this matter would be, seeing the bill is going to raise a good deal of controversy upon very difficult points, to refer the measure to a small select committee, representative of the different parties in the House, and ask the authors, the publishers and the printers to state their respective claims before the committee. They did so before and they agreed. If they agree on the present occasion let us go ahead and let us test our constitutional rights in the matter.


James Alexander Robb: My hon. friend and I are agreed on the first principle that the author has rights in his work. My hon. friend has admitted that. The author, primarily, is the person who should determine what will be done with his or her property. Now, having started there I cannot very well see why my

Copyright Act
hon. friend should argue against the repealing of these clauses, because he himself admits that these clauses take away certain rights which, as he says, belong to the author. My hon. friend has correctly outlined the position which Canada acquired in 1910 in securing the right to make her own copyright. But may I point out to my hon. friend that having obtained those rights we are morally bound to enact such legislation as will enable Canada to comply with the requirements of the Berne convention, because the memorandum I have shows that there a special protocol was required so as to bring about conditions that would enable Canada to join the Berne convention. The Hon. Sydney Fisher agreed that Canada would, on those conditions, join the Berne convention. The commisisoner assures me that there is in the office a despatch from the Imperial authorities intimating that the act as passed in 1921 does not comply with the requirements of the Berne convention, and we are to-day presenting this amendment in order that we may do so. It has probably escaped my hon. friend's memory, but he must have known that that message -had come from the Imperial authorities because this act, which we now propose to amend slightly by withdrawing these few clauses, was assented to in June 1921 when my hon. friend was a member of the government, and he continued to be a member of that same government until December of that year. They did not proclaim the act. Although it was assented to by parliament, it never was proclaimed. I think it is fair to assume the government of the day did not proclaim the act because they were advised that it did not conform to the articles of the Berne convention. The only desire we have is to place Canada in the position where our citizens will enjoy rights in all the other countries and to give to the authors the right which my hon. friend says they are entitled to.


Hugh Guthrie: When I say that I think the author has very high rights in the matter, I do not say he has absolutely exclusive rights, and when he asks the privilege of copyright, then we can impose such terms on him as we see fit, but I do not think the terms should be burdensome. I do not think they should be onerous at all. I agree that the author has the first right, but when he seeks parliamentary or government favours in the form of authority to publish his works or to sell exclusive rights, then I think we can impose necessary restrictions upon him. It is true the act was passed in June 1921, and at that
time the operation was suspended for this reason: new clauses had been introduced and we were aware of the general law passed in Great Britain in 1911 which provided that if our act were in conformity with the Imperial act the Imperial government would proclaim it in the London Gazette. The London Gazette goes from London to Berne, Switzerland, and is accepted there by the copyright convention. It was natural that we should submit our act to the Imperial authorities before bringing it into force, but I would like to find out definitely what objection the Imperial government has taken to it. The only sections in our act which do not conform to the act of the Imperial government are these license sections. We provide that the author during his lifetime can be compelled to allow publication in Canada on payment to him of the equivalent of what he gets from the American publisher. That is not in the British act, but the British act has another section not approved by the Berne convention. The Imperial act has a provision that if the author dies they can compel his executors to allow publication on payment of royalties, the same as the author received in his lifetime. They have varied the Berne convention, not only in that respect, but in several other respects. The Berne convention deals with copyright where there is simultaneous publication in two countries, and I think every country in the convention, save Great Britain, holds that to be publication on the same day. The British act varies that provision and provides that publication within 12 days shall be considered simultaneous publication in the two countries, and the copyright bureau at Berne has not objected. It is assuming a good deal to suppose that there would be objection to this provision in the Canadian act of 1921. If there is valid objection, I can understand that it is to the interest of Canada to let the clauses go and adhere to, the Berne convention. If the objection is merely at the instance of some British publisher, and does not go to the root of the matter, it is not so serious. If it is a vital objection, then it might be proper for us to repeal these clauses and stick to the Berne convention. But I am by no means convinced that these three clauses in question are in conflict at all with the Berne convention. I do not believe they are. I think there is great force in what the publishers and printers say, that this is not a variation of the terms of the Berne convention, and that the Berne convention will accept it; but my suggestion still is that we cannot settle this question in a committee of this kind. Only those who



Copyright Act
have gone to the bottom of the matter and have made a real study of it can possibly understand it, and, without any disrespect to the committee, I think that for the most part we are seeking to legislate in the dark. I believe the minister would facilitate the passage of his bill very much and get to the root of the matter if he would ask for the appointment of a small committee, have the various interests brought together and see if we could not get to the bottom of the grievance, as we did in 1921. I think it would shorten the matter and would produce a much more satisfactory result than for us as a committee to pass this clause repealing four important sections of another act, without understanding just what the real situation is.


James Alexander Robb: My hon. friend admits the value to Canada of the Berne convention, and of our joining in that convention. I take it that the only objection he has to the bill is this provision contained in section 2. I would suggest that we pass all the other sections of the bill, and in the meantime, before committing the government, I would like to consult counsel as to the observations of my hon. friend regarding the appointment of a committee. I would point out however, that we are approaching the time now when we cannot delay legislation. If we pass the minor clause we might let this clause stand for further consideration.


William Alves Boys: Is it a fact that the publishers and their employees are opposed to the provisions of this bill?


James Alexander Robb: If my hon. friend had asked me if the authors were favourable to it, I would have said yes. I will say that some publishers have offered objections to it, and representatives of the Canadian Manufacturers' Association have objected to it, but the authors are very strongly in favour of it, and the government has on record representations from men very prominent in boards of trade who are favourable to it and who are congratulating the government on their courage in dealing with it.


William Alves Boys: I understand the publishers are opposed to it. I at once admit that I am not sufficiently familiar with the subject matter to reach a conclusion at this stage as to who is in the right, but that there may be no misunderstanding regarding the position of the publishers I will place on Hansard a letter addressed to the light hon. leader of the Opposition (Mr. Meighen) which reads as follows :

Rt. Hon. Arthur Meighen, P.C.,
Leader of the Opposition,
House of Commons,
Ottawa.
Dear Honourable Sir,-At a regular meeting of the Ottawa Typographical Union held on Saturday evening last, the proposed amendments to the Canadian Copyright Act, introduced in the House of Commons by the Hon. J. A. Robb, Minister of Trade and Commerce, were very carefully considered. We are unanimously of the opinion that the proposed amendments are not in the best interests of the Canadian printers. We most strenuously protest against their enactment and would request you to use your influence to have Bill No. 24 withdrawn.
We also respectfully request that the Canadian Copyright Act of 1921, as it now stands, be immediately carried into full force and effect.
Trusting that you will give this matter your earnest and most sympathetic consideration, and thanking you in anticipation, I am,
Yours very sincerely,
J. A. P. Haydon,
Secretary.
I am not rising to offer any objection to what'the authors think they are entitled to, but it looks as if there was a difference of opinion between these two important classes, and I would like to support the suggestion of the hon. member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) that a small select committee be at once appointed. I do not think it would take more than four or five days and this matter could be fully investigated. I have been requested to ask a number of questions for the purpose of securing certain information from the minister and I would very much sooner ask these questions before such a committee, but if that cannot be done, I suppose the only course would be to ask them here for the purpose of eliciting the information which is sought.


James Alexander Robb: We will allow this item to stand, and I will not give an answer at the moment as to whether we shall appoint a committee or not, but we will take into consideration the observations of members who have opposed this section. In the meantime may I suggest that, as the only objection apparently is to clause 2, we should pass the other clauses and get them out of the way?


Hugh Guthrie: Clause 2 is the whole act.


James Alexander Robb: Referring to the letter which my hon. friend has placed on Hansard, I desire to make this observation. It contains two statements, one that the Typographical Union of Ottawa are opposed to this measure, and the other that they are offering indirectly a rebuke to the leader of the Opposition (Mr. Meighen) in that he was Prime Minister from June to December when he had an opportunity of proclaiming this measure.

Supply-Indian Affairs


William Alves Boys: The leader of the Opposition is well able to answer any rebukes that may be directed to him. I wish he were here to attend to that phase of the matter himself; he could do it better than I can. However, the minister says that he is prepared to let section 2 stand. That section repeals certain sections of the act, and that after all is the vital point.	'
Mr. FORIvE: I am glad that the minister has come to the conclusion to let the section stand, because a good many members do not know what it means, and I should hate to be called upon to vote upon it at the present time.
Section stands.
On section 5-Commencement of act.


James Alexander Robb: This section amends the act by striking out the words "a day to be fixed by proclamation of the Governor in Council" and substituting the words "the first day of July 1923." I think we had better let that section stand.
Section stands.
Progress reported.



INDIAN AFFAIRS

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
Indians-Manitoba,	Saskatchewan, Alberta and

Mr. EVANS:: The minister might explain the increase of $36,000 odd in this item.


Charles A. Stewart: There is an increase of $36,491 in this item.
Of this increase $18,962.00 is accounted for owing to additional supplies having to be provided for, in order to meet obligations resulting from the negotiations of a treaty with Indians of the Great Slave lake and Mackenzie River districts numbering 3,000 souls. The supplies furnished comprise flour, bacon, tea, blankets, ammunition, twine and tools for which tenders will be invited of the trading companies in those districts and contracts awarded in the regular way. There is also an increase of $16,359.00 in the estimate for hospitals, medical attendance, etc. This increase is due chiefly to the urgent necessity of establishing and maintaining a hosptial on the Sarcee reserve in order to alleviate the condition of these Indians. They are in poor condition physically and unless some very thorough procedure is adopted, it is reported that the band will disappear within a measurable time. To remedy this, vigorous prolonged and radical measures are an absolute necessity. The Church of England has consented to close the Sarcee boarding school, and the department is using the building as a hospital under the supervision of a doctor, who also acts as Indian agent, and a staff of trained nurses. There is also an increase of $1,170 in the estimate for triennial clothing which is unavoidable, as a greater number of chiefs and headmen of treaties Nos. 1, 2 and 5 are entitled to suits next year than those of treaties Nos. 4, 7 and 10 who received suits this year.
I promised a short statement yesterday in dealing with this matter with respect to my personal observations of last year on visiting the Indians of western Canada. I stated that I had no personal knowledge of the conditions in the East, and I may remark with regard to the West that I did not by any means cover anything like all the reserves. I simply got an idea of what might be accomplished amongst the Indians of western Canada, particularly if we were able to carry on different educational methods. I am not criticizing the education of the past; far be it from me to do that. The first desire of the various church organizations who were carrying on work among the Indians was naturally to Christianize them; and that is a laudable purpose. Their next object was to give the-Indians an education, which in my opinion is not of'a character that would change them from their aboriginal habits to the habits of the white man with whom they must enter into competition if they are to make their livelihood in other ways than they formerly followed, namely, of hunting, fishing, and so forth.
I am asking for a considerable increase for educational purposes believing, after discussing the matter with the Oblate Fathers and those interested in Indian education, that we should give to their education a more technical character and, so far as agriculture is concerned, devote more attention to that as-spect of our educational activities than has been the case in the past. Let me give an instance of the splendid results that can be obtained where effort has been put forth to educate the Indian, particularly for agricultural pursuits. I refer now to what I observed in Saskatchewan on the File Hills reserve. For a period of upwards of twenty years there have been carried on there educational methods that are now showing admirable results. This work was done under the supervision of the department here, and more particularly I presume under Mr. Graham, who has been in charge of
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the Saskatchewan activities for a number of years. There the boys and girls were taken from the schools after having been educated and were placed upon the farms. One of the things I objected to was the fact that there was no provision in the estimates for advancing sums of money to support these young people. I think in most cases, although I will not say in all, success was due to the fact that these people started up as young married couples upon their own particular holdings; in one or two instances I discovered young men who were batching and doing remarkably well. Indeed, from my observation, these young people I found were making as great a success of farming as were their white brothers in the surrounding territory; and one could not expect more than that. But unfortunately this is not the case throughout the other provinces. The work has not been carried on in the same concentrated way. However, what I have described is evidence of what can be done with the aborigine in educating and training him so that you change his mode of life.
It cannot be denied that in northern Ontario, northern Manitoba, and indeed in the northern portions of Alberta and Saskatchewan, the white man is becoming a very strong competitor of the Indian in trapping and in hunting. We are receiving constant complaints from the Indians that they are being driven off their hunting grounds. It is generally conceded that the white man is a much more zealous hunter, covers a greater extent of territory, and takes more fur than the Indian, and is denuding the hunting grounds of the red man to such an extent that it is becoming a serious problem. Indeed, this is true even in the far north where the Eskimos find themselves in a similar plight. Therefore, unless we take definite action to change the mode of life of the plains Indian, and in some degree of the bush Indian, we are within a measurable distance of the time when we will be bound to vote large sums of money for the subsistence of the aboriginal tribes. It is with that thought in mind that I am prompted to ask for increased grants for educational purposes among the Indians.
I am not criticizing my predecessors in office; I need only refer to the remarks of the right hon. leader of the Opposition (Mr. Meighen) last year during the discussion of the Indian estimates, when he said that the preceding government had even gone to the point of being penurious in carrying on educational work among the Indians. I think it is only good business that we should attack this problem from the educational

standpoint and try, if possible, to give the younger generation among the Indians such a reasonable amount of education as will enable them to take their place along with their white brothers and sisters, and in some cases, going a little further, give them the necessary technical training to enable them to engage in pursuits other than agriculture. That is all I have in mind.
I have a great admiration for the services performed by the various church organizations among the Indians, especially in the way of education. When I visited the Indian school at Kamloops I found the Father and Sisters in charge working under the most discouraging conditions. Although the building was heated with stoves it was freezing cold, the windows being in a shaky condition and almost falling out, and the school being of wooden construction the fire hazard was very great indeed. Yet he and the Sisters were doing their best to educate the Indian children within a hundred-mile radius of the institution. We are asking you this year to vote a sum of money to build a new institution at Kamloops to serve that whole territory. Similar remarks might be applied to many of these schools. The churches have spent a good deal of money in the construction of school buildings, and many of them are in good shape. It will be remembered that last session we asked for a vote to take over one of the newer buildings in order to relieve the religious organization of the capital charges they had taken upon themselves in connection With this work. I do think, Mr. Chairman, that if the religious organizations are willing to help us to the extent of providing the teaching staff practically free of charge to us, it is our clear duty to provide the buildings for the carrying on of their work. It will be my desire to assist and extend those operations among the 120,000 odd Indians so that no Indian child shall be denied the right to a good, decent public school education at least.
There are many and varied difficulties in the administration of the Indian department. In answer to my hon. friend (Mr. Meighen) I am free to admit that in some cases not enough care has been exercised in selecting our local agents. A great deal depends upon the man who is placed upon a reserve and in whose charge the Indians must be. In many cases not nearly enough consideration has been given to the choice of a suitable man, because after all he needs to possess a good tempered, patient and sympathetic disposition, for he meets with a great deal of disappointment in his failure to at once

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change the habits of these people. Year by year as subsistence by hunting becomes more and more precarious our Indians must apply themselves to agriculture and other avocations pursued by the white man; otherwise they will be entirely dependent upon grants from the treasury, and capable local agents can help them to accommodate themselves to changing conditions.


Mr. FORKE:: I should like to add a word or two, Mr. Chairman, to what I said last night on this subject. I know the minister is very sympathetic towards the Indian and his problem. I thihk perhaps I would be the last to say anything against teaching the Indian Christianity but I do believe our first duty is to teach him how to make a decent living. We all know how puzzled white people become sometimes in regard to problems of Christianity; well, the Indians get into the same difficulties, only a little deeper sometimes. I remember a good many years ago meeting an old Indian friend, and he immediately informed me that he was now a Christian. He was taking some wood to market that had been cut into stove lengths, and while conversing with him I turned over a few pieces and discovered some dozy lengths underneath. I tried to explain to him that this was not Christian practice. He replied, "Oh yes, the white people all do that." So you see some of the difficulties the poor Indian has to meet in dealing with Christianity. I repeat that I believe the great thing is in the beginning to teach the Indian how to make a decent living.
If we are to have successful Indian agents I endorse what the minister says: they must be of a sympathetic nature and the right stamp of men. An Indian agent must be able to go out among the Indians and settle their little quarrels and encourage them to continue at their work. Until we have such men to look after our Indians I do not care how much money we spend it will only be wasted. At the present time in the little reserve near my home I know there are a great many healthy young men, but they have neither stock nor seed to make their land of any use to them. What are they going to do all summer? There is a problem. The department might provide them with the necessary stock and seed, but unless there is an agent possessing the proper qualifications to look after those Indians and see that everything is done in the right way I think the assistance will be thrown away.
Just a word in connection with the education of the Indian. The Indian is different from the white man in a great many respects.
The Indians who live near me sometimes come over to see me about their difficulties.
I can talk a little Indian and perhaps I may do so for a time; then I suddenly recollect that it -would be better to have them talk English and I tell whoever I am conversing with that unless he speaks English I will not carry on the conversation any longer; and immediately he will commence to talk very good English. But he will not speak English as long as you will talk to him in the Indian tongue. Indians who have been educated at Elkhorn and Brandon will go back to the reserve and in twelve months, unless they are given some attention, you will not be able to tell the difference between them and the Indians who never saw the school, except, perhaps, that they are able to write a letter. I submit again that the Indians, to be properly looked after, must have an agent who takes thoroughly good care of them, who acts as their mediator and their counsellor and friend right along. That is the only way I can see in which we can arrive at a solution of the Indian problem. I really feel sorry for the Indians and their present condition in Manitoba. I would like to see the money devoted to the Indians well spent; I would not be niggardly at all in the matter of an appropriation for this purpose if I only knew that the money was being spent as it should be.


John Evans: I would like to say a word in support of what the minister has said. I do not think we should be stingy in the matter of voting money for the purposes of the Indians. We owe a debt to these people, and when the money is well spent we are well repaid in the effort. My own experience in connection with the Indians dates back to some thirty years ago, in connection with one of the reserves in Saskatchewan. The Indian agent who went among them at that time found the conditions very unsatisfactory indeed. Since then we have seen that reserve even without an Indian agent, although there are not as many Indians there now as there used to be, and they are in a very fair way. Some of them, I know, have fine herds of cattle, are following the occupation of farming and are living a civilized life in every respect. Their boys and girls are being educated, and they are intensely loyal. Some of them served in the Great War, and one I know particularly has gone out as a missionary to his own people. They are capable of being educated; they are susceptible to uplift, and I think we would make a mistake if we did not do our duty by them.
Supply-Indian. Affairs


Mr. KENNEDY (Edmonton):: What is the policy of the department with regard to some of the Indian reserves where the Indians have nearly all died? In my own constituency there are some very large reserves which used to be occupied by two hundred Indians but on which there are now only about ten. Then, there are small reserves which, after being farmed to some extent, were abandoned, and are now producing a splendid crop of weeds, wild oats and so on. Would the department consider the leasing of such land as that? I would ask also if it is the intention to retain the larger reserves where the numbers of Indians have materially decreased, or will the department dispose of some of them, and if so under what conditions?


Charles A. Stewart: If the land Is fit for agricultural purposes and is not required by the band, the practice of the department has been to try to secure a surrender from the band and sell the land to white settlers.


Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: I wish to call the attention of the minister to the dissatisfaction which prevails among the Indians on the Blackfaot reserve in Alberta. They have many complaints, the chief of which is that under the terms of surrender agreement they were induced, they say, to consent to a reduction of their rations during the war from seven pounds of meat and seven pounds of flour a week to five pounds of meat and five pounds of flour a week, and a pound of tea, I think, every two months. They were under the impression that when the war was finished they would go back to the old scale, and they are dissatisfied now that many years have elapsed since the conclusion of the war and they are still on the war rations. The minister will realize that adults can hardly be expected to subsist on five pounds of meat and five pounds of flour a week-it seems miserable. If the minister has any explanation to offer I would like to have it.


Charles A. Stewart: I had no knowledge, until the matter was brought to my attention by the hon. gentleman some weeks ago, that there was any difficulty ^bout rations on this reserve. My own idea is that we should carry out to the letter our contract with the Indians; that is the first principle we should lay down. On the other hand, the Indians on the Blackfoot reserve should be rapidly brought to a point where they are self-supporting. They are on splendid land; they can raise cattle; they have every opportunity of getting along well. It may be our fault that they are not self-supporting; I am

not saying it is theirs. However, as I have said, I am prepared to carry out to the fullest extent any arrangement that was made with the Indians.


Edward Joseph Garland: The Indians tell me, through their chiefs, that during the winter and spring they actually go out into the reserve and gather up dead horseflesh and eat it, because they cannot get any other food. Of course, that is obviously improper. There are a number of other complaints that I would like the minister to investigate. One of them dates back to the campaign for greater production The Indians tell me that they were charged $35 a set for harness that could have been purchased from any mail order house for $16 at that time. I would be glad if the minister would investigate that complaint. There is one other complaint, which is more sentimental than anything else. Some of the minor Indian chiefs wish to have the right to delegate to a successor at the time of death the chieftainship or honour which they may themselves possess. A man named Russa, an Indian brave, was bequeathed by a minor chief his chieftainship; this was about two years ago when the chief was dying. The agent informed the Indians that he had communicated with Ottawa but that no reply had been received; and no reply had been received up to last fall when I was there. Little things of this kind are very keenly felt by the Indian mind. Before I pass from that, may I ask the minister whether he has any knowledge of that particular incident?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes. In nearly all the western provinces an Indian chieftainship is not hereditary but elective, so that it would be in direct conflict with the elective sytem to attempt to pass the chieftainship down in hereditary line. We have a great deal of difficulty on the Six Nations reserve about that very thing. They have an hereditary system there and a very strong exception is taken to it by a great many of the Indians on the reserve, and as a result (here is conflict going on all the time. With all due deference to the wishes of the chief I might say frankly that I would oppose the hereditary system as against the elective, which I think is much more modern and much more in the interests of the Indian.


Edward Joseph Garland: The chief did not give me to understand that they desired the hereditary system. I asked the question very pointedly when this matter was brought to my attention: Was the chieftainship delegated to this new man by the will

Supply-Indian Affairs
of the tribe? I was informed yes, and that the agent had been so informed. So it would not be the hereditary system.


Charles A. Stewart: I have no knowledge of that particular case. It would appear that in that case he had been elected by the votes of the band but not confirmed by the agent.


Edward Joseph Garland: Owing to the delay at Ottawa, according to the agent's reply.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Is there an amount provided in this item for improvements or extensions to the school at St. Albert north of Edmonton?


Charles A. Stewart: No. There is an amount of $145,000 for the industrial school at Edmonton, which was formerly the Red Deer school.


Edward Joseph Garland: Is any provision made so that the agent will have power to relieve illness or cases of emergency?


Charles A. Stewart: That is
always done. If there is not a resident doctor, there is a doctor whose dutjr it is to go to the reserve on call. That is the case with all the reserves.


Edward Joseph Garland: Do I understand the minister to say that the agent has power to allocate to a sick Indian additional supplies of food and so forth?


Charles A. Stewart: Oh yes. That is his duty. He must not allow the Indians to starve.


Edward Joseph Garland: I am glad to hear the minister say that because these chiefs have reported to me that on complaint to the agent at Gleiclien they could receive no relief whatever. The agent replied, and I am giving this complaint as I got it, "I have no power. I must get thgt power from the commissioner."


Charles A. Stewart: The Indian is pretty much of a white man when it comes to describing his difficulties. He does not minimize them at all. I discovered that last year when I was on a visit westward. When I brought the officials and the chiefs together I found that the stories I had heard were not borne out by the testimony. I would be very glad to do the same in this particular case, bring the officials and the chiefs together, and if they have legitimate complaints we shall be glad to clear them up.


Edward Joseph Garland: Thank you. May I ask how much capital was used in the original purchase of equipment, lands, stock and so on in connection with the Blackfoot reserve?


Charles A. Stewart: I have not the figures at hand but will give them to my hon. friend.


Edward Joseph Garland: You will let me have them?
Mr. STEWART .(Argenteuil): Yes.


Mr. LEWIS:: Why are the general expenses under this item for Manitoba and Saska-chewan so great, much larger than any of the others?
. Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil):	This, of
course, covers the salaries of all the agents in the western provinces and the expenses in connection with their offices. It covers the Northwest Territory, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta. I have the figures in detail, but it would take considerable time to give them.


Edward Joseph Garland: The Indians of the Blackfoot reserve complain of this fact: When their crop is threshed they are compelled by the agent to dispose of all of it except one load, which they are allowed to retain for seed. Some of these Indians have one hundred acres or more ready for crop and one load, of course, will not nearly suffice for seed. The result is, they say, they have to go back to the agent in the spring and purchase at an enhanced price the additional feed required. Would the minister look into that?


Charles A. Stewart: I can hardly conceive of an agent being so improvident as to ask the Indian to sell his grain down to a point where he would not have sufficient left to seed his land. I think when we came to investigate that complaint we would find it was not borne out by the facts. However, we will investigate it. One of the things we are endeavouring to teach the Indian is prudence. Improvidence is his great failing; he does not provide, and that is one virtue we are trying to encourage him in. It certainly would be a very foolish procedure to sell beyond the point where his requirements for feed and seed would be fully met.	,


Edward Joseph Garland: That was the way in which it struck me. What provision has been made on that reserve for the education of the children? I understand the school has been closed since July. It was alleged to be closed for repairs, but apparently . it has not been opened up yet.
Supply-Indian Affairs


Charles A. Stewart: The school \yas closed simply for the purpose of remodelling and repairs. It is now open again and in operation.


Edward Joseph Garland: How long has it been in operation?


Mr. STEW  ART@Argenteuil: About two months.


Edward Joseph Garland: Is there any age at which the children are supposed to leave the school? I am informed, but I rather doubt it myself, that when the children reach the age of from thirteen to fifteen they are discharged from school and told to go to work.


Charles A. Stewart: I can scarcely believe that because those I spoke of who are making such a splendid success in Saskatchewan went direct from the school to carrying on farming operations on their own account. They are kept at the school until the age of eighteen. I can hardly believe that any such order as my hon. friend mentions would have been issued in connection with the schools. I am free to admit that perhaps there is some ground for complaint in Alberta. On the Morley reserve Indian education was becoming expensive and in some cases they closed the boarding schools and attempted to educate these children in day schools. The department, however has abandoned that idea altogether because it seems to be a waste of money. The children are not kept in school regularly and during their absence go back as far as they have progressed practically, in their educational instruction. The only effective way is to get them into a boarding school where you can have some control over them and keep them under supervision until they have had an opportunity to get an education.


Edward Joseph Garland: I have' seen two crews of Indians at work threshing last fall. I stayed a week in one district w'here one of these crews was working and they gave immense satisfaction. They were more satis-factoy even than the white man, and I am glad to say that the employer paid them exactly the wages of the white man. They did splendid work. Can the minister give to the committee the terms of the agreement entered into with the Indians in regard to ploughed land, that is the land left when the greater production schemes ceased?


Charles A. Stewart: Where the Indian is equipped and ready to farm the land he is charged at* the rate of $6 an acre [Mr E. .T. Garland.]
for broken land, land that is broken and brought under cultivation under the greater production scheme. In regard to what my hon. friend has said with respect, to selling supplies, harness, implements, etc., I may say that a considerable proportion was turned over to the younger Indians who gave evidence of a desire to go farming. In some cases these things were sold, but in the majority of cases they were given to the Indians as an encouragement. One of the difficulties I found when I took charge of the department was that as soon as the young people graduated and were read}' to begin farming operations there was no provision for loaning or giving money to start at farming; and one of the rather vicious things that was happening was that the Indian would go out and get credit from the merchants in the vicinity. This led to considerable difficulty in getting adjustments made. Now we are adopting another method. The department are loaning sufficient funds to these young Indians to start farming in a moderate way, and in that manner we hope to maintain them on the reserve and encourage them in agricultural pursuits.


Edward Joseph Garland: In the first place, under the greater production scheme, the land was leased for five years. The chiefs endeavoured to make an agreement for S10 a head-that is $10 for each Indian on the reserve. Objection was taken to that sum, and it was cut to $6, which was accepted. However, on the expiry of that lease the department went ahead and re-leased without asking the consent of the Indians.
Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil) That is released to white men?


Edward Joseph Garland: I think so. The Indians objected, and subsequently a further agreement was arrived at-with the local agent at any rate, although I think it must have been with the departmental officials-that, in return, .the sum of $4 per head would be paid for these second leases. Is that substantially correct?


Charles A. Stewart: I am afraid not.


Edward Joseph Garland: Well, what are the facts?


Charles A. Stewart: I would like to say to my hon. friend that I cannot speak with authority regarding what has been done in the past, but the policy pursued now is this: The moment an Indian is ready to take this land we are prepared to turn it over to

Supply-Indian Affairs
him. What I mean by that is that none of this land will be leased to white men if there are Indians ready and available to farm it. Just as fast as these young men wish to settle down we will place them on this land, not only on the Blackfoot reserve but on all the reserves on which the policy of greater production was carried on, in order to encourage the Indian to work these farm lands. So far we have not been able to get a sufficient number of Indians to farm the area that was under the greater production scheme. Therefore, we have to lease to the white men temporarily year by year.


Edward Joseph Garland: But is there an amount of $4 being paid to the Indians?


Charles A. Stewart: Not that I know of.


George Newcombe Gordon: Shall the item carry?


Mr. MANION:: No, Mr. Chairman. I want to ask a few questions and if I do so after eight o'clock it will probably be just as well.
At six o'clock the Speaker resumed the chair and the House took recess.
After Recess
The House resumed at eight o'clock.



PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 119 (from the Senate), to change the name of Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo Telephone Company to "Brazilian Telephone Company."-Mr. Ryckman.
Bill No. 120 (from the Senate), respecting Montreal, Joliette and Transcontinental Junction Railway Company.-Mr. Denis (Joliette).
Bill No. 121 (from the Senate), for the relief of Fannie Boyle.-Mr. Sheard
Bill No. 122 (from the Senate), for the relief of James Forbes-Mr. Spence.
Bill No. 123 (from the Senate), for the re* lief of Julia Tracey Kay.-Mr. Duff.
Bill No 124 (from the Senate), for the re-_ lief of Charles Philip Roy McCabe.-Mr. Ross, (Kingston).
Bill No. 125 (from the Senate), for the relief of William George Haden.-Mr. Mc-Master.
Bill No. 126 (from the Senate), for the relief of Gertrude Irene Wood.-Mr. Church.
Bill No. 127 (from the Senate), for the relief of James Murray.-Mr. Stewart (Hamilton.).
Bill No. 128 (from the Senate), for the relief of James McAllister.-Mr. Sheard.
Bill No. 129 (from the Senate), for the relief of David Albert Clayton.-Mr. Sheard.
Bill No 130 (from the Senate), for the relief of Hugh Russell Fulton.-Mr. McKillop.
Bill No. 131 (from the Senate), for the relief of Maybelle Elizabeth French.-Sir Henry Drayton.

[Stage Direction]
The House again in Committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
Robert James Manion: Has the position of Indian agent at the head of the lakes been filled?
I know that the agent was retired a month or so ago but I do not know who has been given the position, if it has been filled.


Charles A. Stewart: The position has been filled by the Civil Service Commission, the appointee being Mr. J. Garry Burke.


Robert James Manion: Mr. Burke was never in the Indian service before?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


Robert James Manion: Is he a returned soldier? Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil): Yes.


Robert James Manion: I desire to say a few words in regard to the Indians in this country. Ever since the white man entered Canada his race has been pushing the Indians farther and farther back into the hinterland of this country. I do not say that in any critical spirit because I believe that Canada has been treating her Indians probably a great deal better than the people to the south of us have treated theirs, as is evidenced by the fact that throughout the time we have dealt with our Indians there have been practically no difficulties or troubles in connection with them, whereas in the United States the authorities have undoubtedly met with many difficulties in the way of guerilla warfare and so forth. I believe, however, that it is well for us to bear in mind at all times that after all the Indians were the first Canadians; at least they were here before any of the rest of us, not excepting my good friends in Quebec. It should, therefore, be the wish of the Canadian people to show them every consideration possible; and indeed I believe that it has been the policy of the Department of Indian Affairs under all governments to treat the Indians in a reasonably fair way. At the same time the Indians throughout this country, at least in many bands, have been decreasing in great numbers. At the head of the lakes in the neighbourhood of Fort William and Port Arthur there are a couple of bands as well as one at Nipigon

Supply-Indian Affairs
which, from what I have been given to understand, are decreasing to a great extent, this being due mainly to disease of one kind or another. We are all aware that practically every disease to which the white man is subject deals more harshly with the Indian when it attacks him than it does with the white race, probably because the Indian has not become as immune, during a long period of years, as is the white man to such disease. One disease in particular which has been attacking the Indians at the head of the lakes and also in British Columbia, where I understand the Indians are also decreasing in numbers, is tuberculosis. I have watched the progress of these people at the head of the lakes for the last thirty years, and I know that they have been decreasing in numbers to a very large extent from this cause. There are other diseases, of course, which levy a heavy toll on them, even including the comparatively mild disease of measles; and there is another unfortunate evil from which they suffer, which is not perhaps exactly a disease but rather an injurious habit which they have acquired. I refer to the use by the Indians of alcohol. I mention this fact because I fear we have not perhaps been doing enough to protect the Indians against themselves, so far particularly as diseases are concerned. I remember that in conversation once with a Jesuit priest, who lived among the Indians, he told me that they were healthier both physically and morally before they became associated with white people. I believe he was telling the exact truth. The point I wish to make is this. While I understand from the deputy minister that a certain amount of educational propaganda is carried on amongst the Indians to inculcate some of the hygienic laws with a view to preventing tuberculosis or at least the most common forms of consumption, and while through the missionaries of different religious denominations in this country the Indians are being acquainted with the harmful effects of alcohol upon themselves especially-for they are affected to a greater extent by it than are most other races-*, at the same time I feel that perhaps we might increase our efforts to educate these people to the importance of protecting themselves, more particularly against tuberculosis. It is important that we should teach them the means to prevent this disease to as great an extent as they possibly can. So far as alcohol is concerned, after all the laws of most provinces, if not of all, protect the Indians, to some extent at least, against the alcoholic evil, so that they can obtain liquor only illegally. As regards tuberculosis, however, while there is a con-
tinuous campaign being waged against the disease among the Indians, even in their own dialects, still we might do more for them than is now done. The Indians are really a very inoffensive people in Canada. In the past, it is true, in the early history of the country, they were rather aggressive; but today I think, speaking at least of the Indians whom I have met, and I have grown up in their midst, so to speak, practically	in all relations
of life they are much less offensive citizens of this country, if they may be so termed, than are the white men. It is for that reason, therefore, that I urge upon the minister the question of considering more active propaganda to be carried on, in whatever ways the deputy minister and the different officials of the department may deem advisable, to educate the Indians to take better care of their health. But there are other reasons besides humanitarian for undertaking work of this kind. For example, there is the point of view of the picturesqueness of Indian life in this country. I believe that the Indian life of Canada is of value to the Canadian people, particularly to those people in this country who have come from lands where Indians, the people we understand that word to designate, have not existed. I wish therefore to impress upon the minister the value that there is in preserving to the people of this country the Indians whom we now have amongst us. They are, as I have said, of an inoffensive character, and from the humanitarian point of view, if, from no other reason, I think we should do more than we are doing at present to take care of them. I think that with a little more money expended in this direction than we are now devoting to the Indians we could protect them against diseases of various kinds; and I should be glad if the minister and the officers of his department would take such steps as would prove in the best interests not only of the Indians themselves but of the people of the country as a whole.


Thomas George McBride: I have no complaint to
make on behalf of the Indians regarding the minister, but rather I wish to thank him and his deputy for the way in which they have treated the Indians, particularly in the vicinity in which I live. Last year I spoke to the minister and his deputy with reference to the school at Kamloops, which was in a dilapidated condition. That school would have been built years ago had it not been for the war. The minister and his deputy came to the district and visited the reserve last summer. They looked fully into the matter, went through the old school! and were at once convinced

Supply-Indian Affairs
that it was no place for children to be educated in. I can assure them that the people in that vicinity, not only the Indians and the reverend gentleman who is in charge of them, but the people generally appreciate very much the action the minister and his deputy have taken to improve the conditions for the children on the reserve.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Owing to the fact that I was on a committee this afternoon when the estimates for New Brunswick were under consideration, I would ask the indulgence of the committee for five minutes to refer to certain conditions in that province. I want to refer to the roads in the Indian reserve in Victoria county, New Brunswick. This reserve is in the neighbourhood of a good-sized town and is situate in a populous part of the country. One has to drive through the reserve to get into the market town, and it is quite a hardship, especially in winter, to pass through the reserve because the Indians are not in a position to break the roads along these three or four miles. There is a great deal of snow in New Brunswick in winter and people experience considerable hardship in passing over that road to get into the town. In summer, of course, the condition is not so bad, but in winter it is very difficult to get over it. Part of the road is dug out of a side of a bank, and when the spring freshets come it is invariably in very bad shape. Will the agent there be instructed to see that the road is kept open during the winter?


Mr. BANCROFT:: I would bring to the attention of the minister the necessity of an early settlement concerning the hay lands on the St. Peter's reserve. This reserve is on the Red river just north of the town of Selkirk. These hay lands have been the principal source of supply of hay for the local farmers ever since the district was first settled. They enjoyed this convenience until about five years ago when the lands were leased in a block to a party for speculative purposes, thus of course cutting off the other settlers from their hay supply. The district is only about thirty miles from the city of Winnipeg, the train service is excellent and in every way the conditions are highly favourable to dairy farming, but I am told that since these lands were leased five years ago the number of stock in the locality has decreased by about 60 -per cent. This indicates how very detrimental to the local farmei s has been their exclusion from these hay lands. The lease runs out next month, and I would impress upon the minister the importance of not renewing it. These hay lands should be
available to the local settlers in order that they may be able to build up a stock-growing industry. I have already taken this matter up with the department and with the minister, and I again take this opportunity of emphasizing the importance of this hay supply to the local farmers. I think it is the duty of the government to keep these lands out of the hands of speculators and make it possible for the actual settlers to buy them in small lots. If arrangemets cannot be settled in time to make a sale this year before the hay crop is ready, I would suggest that the lands be leased in small lots to the settlers for this year's cut, and that arrangements be completed for a sale on the lines I have indicated so that the actual settlers may benefit instead of being sacrificed in favour of the speculator. This point of view, I may say, is shared not only by all the settlers in the community but by the residents of the town of Selkirk, which is the largest urban centre in the district.


Mr. CARMICHAEL:: What is the explanation of the increase under this item?


Charles A. Stewart: In answer
to my hon. friend who has spoken of the scourge of tuberculosis among the Indians, while I would not say that we are taking adequate steps to this end, because it would cost a tremendous amount of money to wipe out this plague amongst the Indian tribes, yet we are trying by propaganda and education among the Indians to make them acquainted with the best methods of combatting the disease. Of course, we have the best chance of success among the children who attend the schools. Undeniably our Indian people, in common, I suppose, with those who have lived as they have lived for generations, are in rather a bad way so far as tuberculosis is concerned. We hope by the means I have indicated and by employing nurses to help the Indians save themselves from this scourge.
In reply to my hon. friend for Victoria and Carleton (Mr. Caldwell) I do not think it is the duty of the agent or of the department to keep open a public road, but in so far as we are responsible as a property holder in the vicinity we will be prepared to do our share both in the construction and the maintenance of these highways passing through the various reserves.
In reply to my hon. friend for Selkirk (Mr. Bancroft), we have had the matter he refers to under consideration. As soon as possible these hay lands will be put up for sale by public auction in small lots. We can-

Supply-Indian Affairs
not. guarantee that they will be sold to the local farmers, but at least they will be given an opportunity of bidding upon the various parcels that constitute this rather large hay meadow. In the meantime as soon as the lease expires we will offer this year these various parcels to parties who may wish to lease them and get the hay, as it will be impossible to arrange for a sale before the hay harvest.


Arthur Meighen: Would the land be leased by favoritism or by tender?


Charles A. Stewart: We will
lease the parcels by tender.


Arthur Meighen: What will be the difference between that condition and what has already prevailed? The present lessee got his lease by tender-he was the highest bidder. I understand that what the hon. member complains of is that the lands are not available for farmers in the neighbourhood. They will not be available to them after the minister leases them by tender this year, nor, after he sells them.


Charles A. Stewart: I do not wish- to get into a controversy between my right hon. friend and the hon. member for Selkirk-[DOT]


Arthur Meighen: There is no controversy.


Charles A. Stewart: -But I know of no other system by which the department can protect itself.


Leland Payson Bancroft: I would suggest that the lands be leased in small lots, not in one whole block as was done before. In the latter case the lands will inevitably pass into the hands of speculators. If these lands are leased under what is known as hay permits every man who has stock can obtain so much of the land according to the number of his stock. This method would help the local stock-raising industry and would keep the lands out of the hands of speculators.


Arthur Meighen: That is not the tender system; that is the permit system.


Leland Payson Bancroft: Well, that is the system the local settlers want.


Arthur Meighen: That is what the min-ter says he is not going to do.


Leland Payson Bancroft: The people there want the permit system.


Mr. BEAUBIEN:: Has the minister had any complaints from the residents living near the St. Pie reserve in regard to the fencing of the reserve? A road has been cut through IMr. C. A. Stewart.]
this reserve, and in the fall many of the settlers left their cattle out on the road. Trouble resulted, the cattle straying into the Indian reserve and being impounded by the Indians, which put the settlers to considerable cost and a great deal of inconvenience. I suggest to the minister that some fencing should be done on that reserve. There are very few Indians there, and they have had a great deal of trouble. Has the minister had any complaints?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


Mr. HANSON:: Shortly after the last election the Indian agent at Perth, New Brunswick, under whose immediate care the Tobique band of Indians came, was dismissed from office without any reason being assigned. I happen to know that he is a man of more than ordinary intelligence and that he was perhaps one of the best Indian agents we ever had in that part of the country. Will the minister inform us why he was dismissed?


Charles A. Stewart: The information I have is that the services of this gentleman were not satisfactory.


Richard Burpee Hanson: No such reason was ever assigned. But I can tell the minister the real reason; it was because he did not support the hon. member for Victoria and Carle-ton (Mr. Caldwell). I do not know that he was very active against him, but that was the reason. Were any complaints against Mr. Wootten on file in the department, and if so, were they investigated by the department?


Charles A. Stewart: I cannot answer offhand whether or not there were any complaints.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The secretary of the department is right in front of the minister; he knows Mr. Wootten personally.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Perhaps I may be able to help the hon. member for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson) a little.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I want the information from the minister.


George Newcombe Gordon: I draw the attention of hon. members to the fact that this vote is for Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and the Northwest Territories. However, if the committee has no objection I suppose a brief explanation might be made.


Charles A. Stewart: No objection.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I am surprised to learn that this man did not support me. I understood from him that he did.

Supply-Indian Affairs


Mr. JACOBS:: The hon. member for York-Sunbury said he was a man of more than ordinary intelligence.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Then he should have supported me as a matter of course.


Mr. MARTELL:: There was no Liberal candidate, so he was the next best thing.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: However, the chief of the Indian tribe at Tobique point wrote me something over two years ago stating that green timber was being cut on the reserve without a permit. I reported the matter to the department, and they got in touch with the Indian agent, who reported back that there was no such thing going on. All this will be found, I am sure, on the departmental files. I received a communication to this effect from the deputy minister, a copy of which I sent to the chief, thinking there must have been some mistake. By return mail I received another letter from the chief saying that at least 600 green logs had been cut, as well as a large amount of green pulpwood. I again communicated with the department, and I think they sent an Indian agent from another reserve to look into the matter. They found that it was true that this cutting had been going on, although the agent at that reserve denied it. I am convinced that he did not know anything about it, because I know the man; he is very conscientious and an excellent man in every way-and a very good friend of mine, by the way. As I say, I was surprised to learn that he did not support me in the last election, because a man of his good judgment would naturally, I should think, follow that course. If the minister looks into the files I think he will find that that is the reason Mr. Wootten's services were dispensed with. Mr. Wootten was leaving the locality, I believe; he is up in northern Ontario at present.


Richard Burpee Hanson: He left this month; he was dismissed a year ago. I should like to ask the minister if any complaint was ever made against Mr. Wootten, and if so, whether it was investigated by the department?


Charles A. Stewart: I am informed that this timber transaction was about the only thing concerning which his occupancy of the position was questioned. I am also informed he did not give his full time to Indian affairs; that he was engaged in other business.


Richard Burpee Hanson: How could you expect him to do so, on the miserable salary you paid him?


Charles A. Stewart: We expect to get service, even for miserable salaries.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Not his full time.


Mr. MICHAUD:: I know something about this gentleman, and if the hon. member for York-Sunbury wants to know in what respect he did not fulfil his duties, I can enlighten him on the subject. In the first place, the hon. member will know that Mr. Wootten got the position of Indian agent as a reward for his activities as Conservative organizer in the county of Victoria. I know that county very well; I had the honour of representing it for some time. Then, Mr. Wootten was so active as an insurance agent that he had hardly any time to give to the affairs of the Indians on the Perth reserve. As he was not doing his duty in connection with the work on behalf of the Indians, he was, therefore, dismissed for a good cause.


Arthur Meighen: It would look as though he had been dismissed by the hon. member for Miramichi instead of by the minister. The minister did not know anything about the reason for the dismissal, but-


Pius Michaud: Who is the member for Miramichi, I would like to know?


Arthur Meighen: Restigouche-they are
pretty close together.


Joseph Archambault: The Miramichi is an old boat.


Arthur Meighen: I would like to ask the minister what is doing and what he proposes doing in regard to the greater production work in the West.


Charles A. Stewart: I have not changed my mind with respect to the matter since last year. With the single exception of the farm near Regina, we propose turning those lands over to the young Indians who qualify as farmers. Of course that cannot be done in a moment; we shall have to continue until such time as these young Indians are in a position to take over the lands. Each year will show, I think, a very substantial reduction in our farming operations.


Arthur Meighen: I read in a return
brought down in answer to some questions a statement which indicated very gratifying results from the greater production operations. I think it would be well if these were made known to the committee. I do not object to the gradual closing out of 'the enterprise, but I would not want to see it closed out any more rapidly than suitable Indians were available to utilize the lands that have been brought under cultivation. Otherwise

Supply-Indian Affairs
these lands would be worse than wasted; the cultivation would be harmful instead of beneficial, because the land would all go to weeds. If I caught the minister's words aright, the farm he proposes continuing within the scope of the enterprise is the one near Regina. What is the name of the reserve?


Charles A. Stewart: Muscowequan.


Arthur Meighen: About 4,000 acres?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: It will be some time before they are withdrawn.


Charles A. Stewart: We are
always having difficulty in connection with Indian farming. What I mean by that is that almost every year there will be reserves upon which seed will be required, and I think a farm of that character might very well be continued by the department in order to provide the necessary seed. It might be said that there is no reason why these reserves should not provide seed for themselves, and that does happen once in a while. With the exception of that one farm, I think we should close out these farms as rapidly as we have Indians qualified to take them on. Of course we must continue to operate until then, otherwise the lands would grow up in weeds.


Arthur Meighen: What are the results so far as they can be known now?


Charles A. Stewart: I will give that information, which is in the form of answers to some questions that were asked, I do not know by whom. The quantity of grain grown on the Indian reserves in the three prairie provinces during the last five years was 5,363,339 bushels; the proportion of this grown by individual Indians was 3,532,347 bushels; the proportion grown by white settlers 1,100,000 bushels; the proportion grown by the greater production operations was 730,992 bushels; the quantity of grain grown on these same reserves during the five years previous to this period was 5,586,938 bushels; the area summer fallowed and broken by Indians during the last five years was 112,294 acres; area during the previous five years, records not available for breaking and summer fallowing, but total area under crop 1913-1917 inclusive 184,302 acres; amount of rentals collected during the last five years $440,009.88; amount collected during the previous five years $54,324.66.


Arthur Meighen: What is the amount still due and collectible?


Charles A. Stewart: I have not that here but it will be a fairly considerable amount I imagine.


Arthur Meighen: Perhaps I did not get the minister's figures right. If I understand them properly his figures were wrong as to the amount grown in the previous five years. I have it at about three and a half million bushels, not five million odd. The increase is something over 100 per cent.


Charles A. Stewart: My hon. friend is quite correct. The quantity of grain grown on these same reserves during the five years previous was 3,586,938 bushels, not 5,586,938 bushels.


Arthur Meighen: The minister read 5,000,-
000.	There should be about $130,000 due and collectible still, and if so that amount added to the $440,000 which the minister has just given would make a total of $590,000 of direct cash resulting from an investment of about $360,000. In addition, of course, there would be the buildings. They will be used now by the Indians that are coming on to take possession of the land, the tractors and farm machinery that the greater production enterprise has, and as well there would be some outstandings that would still come in, I mean aside from the rentals. So the whole enterprise would be a very profitable one from every standpoint. Of course, I am quite aware that a large share of the profits come from the leases, but even without the leases there is a very gratifying result from the whole greater production enterprise. I would like to know if the minister's ideas agree with mine on this subject or has he something in his mind that modifies or in any way tempers his enthusiasm with regard to the results attained?


Charles A. Stewart: I was not questioning the results at all, but I do not think it would be wise to continue the greater production of grain enterprise now.
I do not see any necessity for continuing it. All I am endeavouring to do is to get the Indians to take over this land as fast as they are able to do so and to get down to one reasonably-sized farm close to Regina, where the work can be looked after by Mr. Graham, and a store of grain be left avail- . able at that central point for use as required.


Arthur Meighen: I think the greater production work is good, but I think the Indian on the farm is better, and consequently while there is an Indian who is likely to succeed standing by ready to take the land I agree with the minister that the right thing to do

Supply-Indian Affairs
is to let him take it, but save for that, and only as the work is invaded by the Indians, I would say continue the greater production operations. In that way some use is made of otherwise almost abandoned land, the very best waste land in the West. There is need of the greater production operations for the purpose of utilizing that land. Why, the minister could get a very considerable sum towards his Indian estimates by continuing this to the utmost degree consistent only with not shutting out any Indian ready to farm, and at the rate of increase of these estimates I wo'uld think that would appeal to the minister as a very advisable thing to do.


Charles A. Stewart: I just might say in reply that when farming under the greater production scheme you might have a period of years when you would be very successful, and then you might strike a period of years in which your expenditure would far outbalance your revenue.


Arthur Meighen: You would hardly strike any worse than we have had lately.


Charles A. Stewart: Do not make any mistake. That could be done very easily. These bad cycles fortunately did not strike the greater production area very seriously.


Arthur Meighen: They struck it right between the eyes. The big greater production farms were hailed, and drought came and brought down the yield to about seven bushels per acre on the largest farm on the Blood reserve and on the second largest nearby. I think it encountered pretty nearly everything that western farming encounters and still it has succeeded.


Charles A. Stewart: It has succeeded largely because they have been very successful in Saskatchewan. They have been very fortunate in getting splendid crops, and this year again there was a magnificent crop in Saskatchewan; I saw it.' But on the whole it is rather a precarious undertaking. These lands were broken at a time when stress was being put upon the government to increase production in Canada, and it was a laudable scheme to enter upon at that time, but so far as I am concerned when my hon. friend points put that this is a way in which we might obtain revenue I would say that we are obtaining all the revenue we can from the rentals of these lands. But after all I am fearful whether this is not a doubtful way of obtaining revenue taking one year with another, breaking up these lands and taking chances on leasing them. I am speaking of
lands the Indians would not otherwise be able to utilize. Part of the difficulty complained of by my hon. friend from Bow River arises from the fact that these lands during the period of inflation were leased at high rentals, and the leaseholders were unable to pay. The Indian knows what these lands were rented at and he is disappointed and thinks somebody has been retaining what rightfully belongs to him. I have gone pretty thoroughly into all these matters with the chiefs themselves, and I know that that is partly the cause of their complaint, whereas the rancher, and in many cases the renter, has lost all that he put into the enterprise. Take the case of the leases, the very Gleichen reserve that my hon. friend from Bow River is speaking about. The rancher who had that lease is practically bankrupt owing to the severe drop in the price of cattle and the veri-high rental he was foolish enough to pav for the lease. Yet the Indian expects to get. that money.


Arthur Meighen: It is not so much a
matter of what the Indian expects as what is best for him. Suppose the minister does see that he gets the benefit of the money; all well and good. Better do the best that can be done with the land and let the money go to the Indians as far as I am concerned. I would not want to see the land simply given up and the whole enterprise abandoned even if somebody did pay too much. That is always going to happen and, of course, the man who loses has to take his risk. I do not want to see everything simply put aside, the tractors stacked up, and the enterprise left in the lurch, any more rapidly than is necessary to take care, of the Indians.


Charles A. Stewart: I am not
sure that my right hon. friend realizes exactly what is being done. I assure him that we are trying to make the best use of every acre of land that cannot be utilized by the Indians. I would like to see the Indians out there encouraged, as far as possible, to utilize their grazing land. There is no use blinking at the fact that they have not nearly the number of cattle they had some years ago and we must get busy and encourage them to own and raise their cattle on these reserves. Not only that but we must encourage the young men to engage in agriculture in order that they may maintain themselves. It can be done. I pointed out this afternoon a very clear evidence of that in Saskatchewan where the Indians are making splendid progress, and I see no reason why the same thing cannot be done on every one of these western reserves.
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Arthur Meighen: 
Charles A. Stewart: I would just like to say in reply to my right hon. friend that is eactly what I have been trying to tell the committee this afternoon-


Arthur Meighen: Yes, I heard some of it.


Charles A. Stewart: -and I
agree most heartily with it. I think the mistake that has been made is, that we have been trying to educate the Indian and then abandoning him the moment he steps outside of the schoolroom door. I do not see how you could expect any different result. I cannot very well see how it could be different. You have only given him an education; you have not equipped him at all to take his place in a different walk of life and you have spoiled him for the avocation carried on by his people. Now, what else could be the result but that in many cases he would be a failure such as has been depicted by the leader of the Progressive party. With these object lessons in front of us we should endeavour to shape our policy accordingly. I am not anxious to give the Indian a very extended education, but I do earnestly desire to give him a sufficient education in order that he may be able to take his place with the white man in the ordinary avocations of life.


Arthur Meighen: But there is an enormous increase.


Charles A. Stewart: My right
hon. friend must bear in mind the fact that the late government spent no money on educational institutions during the whole period of the war.


Arthur Meighen: Oh, yes. we spent some.


Charles A. Stewart: I would like to take my right hon. friend to some institutions in which the Indian youth is being educated; I would like to show him some of the institutions in which the work is being carried on. Surely, in all fairness, if we are to do this work, if we are to even make an attempt to do it, we ought to have reasonable places in which to house these children and that has not been the case. I saw some examples of that. I saw some splendid institutions. I saw an institution at Qu 'Appelle of which the Canadian government, or any other government, can well be proud; a splendid building, well conducted, and the pupils that I saw there demonstrated the advantages of an institution of that kind. It is not my policy to build institutions of that character. At the same time I think that much better work could be done in an institution of that

Supply-Indian Affairs
character rather than one in which they cannot keep water from freezing, one in which the floors are worn out and the windows are falling out of the building, and where there ought to be 150 or 175 pupils. That is why I am asldng for this money. I am not asking it for the purpose of building elaborate estab^ lishments and putting in elaborate equipment. What is proposed is to have a reasonable kind of a building with a very modest
9 p.m. equipment in order that this work may be carried on. If we cannot make any progress in assisting the Indians in Canada through a reasonably educational method, I am afraid that the red man will deteriorate, and that he will be a bigger burden in the way of maintenance upon the people of Canada than he will by trying to make him sustain himself by this method.


Mr. KNOX:: 
Mr. TOLMIE:: Can the minister tell the committee what is being done in the way of [DOT] stimulating the Indians in the production of beef cattle on the plains?


Charles A. Stewart: Unfortunately the Indians on the plains have not as many cattle as they had ten or twelve years ago.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Does the minister know the reason?


Charles A. Stewart: No, but they had some very bad seasons, and for some reason or other they do not appear to have as many cattle as they formerly had. I think we should endeavour to change that condition. Instructions are given to the farm instructors and agents on the reserves to encourage as much as possible the production of live stock, because it seems to me we should not have to buy beef to maintain the Indians upon the plains. We should not have to furnish beef particularly to bands located where there is plenty of grass in a good grass country. The Indian can very well be taught to take care of his stock. He is perhaps improvident and all the rest of it, but it is part of the business of the agent and farm instructor located on the reserve to assist him in that respect.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Is the government doing anything to improve the quality of cattle? What is the government doing in the way of providing winter feed, hay and so on? Is the pit silo used in that country at all?


Charles A. Stewart: No, we have not had to resort to a pit silo. The Blood reserves in the West have always had plenty of grass and hay to maintain stock during the winter. Indeed they have sold great quantities of hay during the winter, instead of having the stock consume it. But every year it has been the policy of the department to purchase pure-bred bulls for distribution on these reserves where they are required.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: What prices has the government to pay in the purchase of these bulls?


Charles A. Stewart: We have to buy them in competition at the sales.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: There is no limit as to price.
Mr. STEWART' (Argenteuil): We have to pay what the other buyers have to pay.


Robert Forke: Will the minister explain that item of $8,145 for the Sioux indians? Nothing is stated except the word "Sioux".


Charles A. Stewart: This is a large number of small items. However I may say in reply to my hon. friend for Prince Albert (Mr. Knox) that we have had many representations made with regard to the Duck Lake school. We know it is in rather a serious condition, but it will probably take ten years to catch up with the construction and improvement of the various schools throughout Canada for Indian education, and we will attehd to those just as fast as we can afford to do so.

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In reply to my hon. friend for Brandon (Mr. Forke) I would say that the estimate of $8,145 is made up as follows: the Birtle agency got $15 worth of flour, $30 worth of bacon, $10 worth of tea, $1 worth of rice, $1 worth of rolled oats, and medical attendance $75. The Portage la Prairie agency got $30 worth of bacon, $12 worth of flour, $10 worth of tea, $2 worth of rice, medical attendance $200, medicine $150, and $50 was given to relieve unforeseen cases of destitution. The salary of the constable at the Sioux village was $60. Then the Griswold agency item is made up in the same way.


Robert Forke: The Sioux Indians are not treaty Indians. They are only getting this as a grant, I think, {fom the government. I think that grant of $8,000 will probably cover a good deal more than 1,000 Indians. You can figure out how much is coming to an Indian from the government when you consider it in that light. It will be understood that there is no treaty money paid to those Indians, and this is all they get. I think it is therefore plain why the condition of these Indians is such as it is to-day. The government practically does nothing for them. They supply the agent and that is all. The flour and feed that is handed out amounts to nothing. Although they are not treaty Indians, they have lived for 60 years in Manitoba, and I think they are entitled to just about the same treatment as the other Indians in the Dominion of Canada.


Charles A. Stewart: I do not know that they get any different treatment from the Indians on the plains.


Robert Forke: Do the Saskatchewan Indians not get anything in the way of treaty money?


Charles A. Stewart: Five dollars a head.


Robert Forke: The Manitoba Indians do not get that.


Charles A. Stewart: The Sioux Indians.


Robert Forke: No, I do not think so.


Arthur Meighen: The minister read an item for medical services. Is it a fact that the appointment of doctors for the reserves has been taken away from the Civil Service Commission and is once more under patronage?


Charles A. Stewart: Not that I know of. There has been no change, so far as I know. If a medical officer is appointed permanently, he is appointed by the Civil

Service Commission, but, as formerly, where it is a case only of payment for attendance by the doctor residing in the village, he is paid for the visit.


Arthur Meighen: What is the case at Portage la Prairie? Which class does he come under?


Charles A. Stewart: He is not a permanent official. He gets $200 and his fees.


Arthur Meighen: So that he is under patronage?


Charles A. Stewart: Well, I suppose he is under patronage, if that is the definition of it. But I may tell my hon. friend that that would not be the definition I should place upon it.


Arthur Meighen: It very distinctly applies-


Charles A. Stewart: Let me ask my hon. friend this question: If it were necessary to appoint a permanent official he would be appointed by the Civil Service Commission, but if it is not necessary to appoint a permanent official and he is simply paid for his visits, does that indicate that there is patronage?


Arthur Meighen: No, I was just going to indicate why it was patronage. The minister has fired the incumbent.


Charles A. Stewart: At Portage la Prairie?


Arthur Meighen: Yes.


Charles A. Stewart: I was not aware of that.


Arthur Meighen: Yes, and he has appointed another. The incumbent who was there was one of the leading physicians of the town. He was a married man with a family and his two partners were returned soldiers. They had been partners for some time and are still, and the minister has appointed in the place of this man a gentleman who had no connection with the militia or war in his life, so far as I know, nor has he any partner who has had such a connection. In other wortls, the minister has virtually taken the position from returned soldiers. Of course, he has given it to a leading Liberal, and if such a man could be called ' eminent the adjective might apply. That is the indication of patronage.


Charles A. Stewart: Is the present incumbent not a medical man?


Arthur Meighen: Oh yes, he is a medical man. I did not dispute the fact of his being

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a medical man; indeed, I said that he was in a leading position so far as Liberal medical men are concerned.


Charles A. Stewart: Then the implication is that a Liberal could not be eminent?


Arthur Meighen: No, I am not saying that at all. What I am complaining of is that the minister by the exercise of patronage has taken the advantage of the work from men who were entitled to it under what is supposed to be government policy, or at least is alleged to be such, of giving the preference to returned men. That is what I complain of. Does the minister think that is right? If so, on whose recommendation was it done? Perhaps I should apologize for asking any question about Portage la Prairie.


Charles A. Stewart: I was going to ask the hon. gentleman if he was speaking on behalf of the people of Portage la Prairie or on behalf of the representative of the district.


Arthur Meighen: I am speaking for the public, the great people. Will the minister let me know why that was done and on whose recommendation.


Robert Forke: I would suggest that we send for the member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Leader).


Charles A. Stewart: I cannot
answer my hon. friend because apparently any changes of this character must of necessity, in the opinion of hon. gentlemen, be changes brought about by patronage.


Arthur Meighen: It looks like it.


Charles A. Stewart: I may say
to my hon. friend however that there was good and sufficient reason for the change, although I have no recollection now of its having been made. Undoubtedly I am responsible for it. but I cannot give any -information in regard to the matter because I do not now recollect how it came about. It is very evident, of course, that it was not brought about at the request of my hon. friend.


Arthur Meighen: Hear, hear.


Charles A. Stewart: Perhaps the other representative asked for the change?


Arthur Meighen: Do the minister's officials not know any reason why a medical man who was giving good service was dismissed?


Thomas George McBride: I might say a word in connection with a medical man appointed in my district.
138j


Arthur Meighen: We had better get
through with this one first.


Thomas George McBride: I might inform the committee that one of my strongest opponents, a lifelong Conservative, was appointed and no one had any objection to offer.


Arthur Meighen: Can the minister not
ascertain any reasons at all for the change that was made in this case? Are we not entitled to know whether or not the public interest was considered in the matter, or whether the change was made from purely party interest? What is the House for if the minister can simply say he does not know and no one else knows? That does not help us very much.


Charles A. Stewart: All I can say is that I have not been in the habit of dismissing people for partisan purposes. I have no recollection of how the change came about, although I assume that I knew all about it at the time. I assume also that the Indians are getting the same kind of service now that they got in the past. I do not think it- is incumbent upon me to give further reasons.


Arthur Meighen: What about the returned soldier phase of the question? Does not that appeal to the minister?


Charles A. Stewart: Almost in
every case, yes.


Arthur Meighen: Why not in this case?


Charles A. Stewart: I have already told my hon. friend that I have no recollection of the change having been made, but no doubt it was quite in order and proper. If it was not, why, I have no information to give about it.


Arthur Meighen: I do not know why the minister qualifies his remarks with the phrase, "no doubt." Has his deputy no recollection of the change at all? I can scarcely think he has not. I think the change was wrong. I do not want to be understood as complaining about the medical qualifications of the new appointee; not at all. But if the government really consider the returned soldier in matters of this kind, they should not have made that change; and in any event, when they made the change they should have made it so that a returned soldier would get the benefit.


Samuel William Jacobs: It might be consoling to the leader of the Opposition to know that firing good men seems to have been epidemic in Portage la Prairie.	[DOT]


Arthur Meighen: That is right.
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Mr. GOULD:: Can we ascertain from the figures given by the minister regarding the total productions of reservations during the past year, which reserve showed the best returns? Are the various amounts given separately? I have in mind the White Bear reserve in my own district, and it seems to me that these Indians should be given better school facilities on the principle laid down by the member for Prince Albert (Mr. Knox). Last year I believe the minister did make visits to many reservations throughout the western country, but I find that the White Bear reservation was passed over. He did not honour that reservation with a visit. There are many things there not altogether connected with the Indians that might come under the department. There are three or four questions correlated to the Indian reservations, such as pleasure resorts and so on, which the department might consider. I might state that on that reservation the Indians have, in my opinion, facilities for production which are better than can be found on - the average reservation. They have an open area for the growing of cereals as well as a bush which provides pasturage facilities for the raising of cattle, an industry which the Indians go in for extensively in that locality. The public make ,one complaint particularly in regard to that reservation. There are large sloughs on which there are vast quantities of hay, but outside of that area there is very little. The white people, when the Indians do not show any desire to put the hay up, endeavour to rent these hay areas from them, but in all cases they have been refused, with the result that hundreds oi tons of hay are frozen each year in these sloughs. I do not know whether the minister has any jurisdiction in this matter, or whether the agent is wholly responsible. However, I rose merely to say a word for these Indians. I think it would be found, if the various returns were segregated, that per capita the White Bear reserve stands well to the head of the list in the matter of production; and when Indians show such a state . of progress I think they should be given greater consideration in the way of school facilities than is evident now in the quality of the buildings that are to be found on that reservation. While I am about it I wish to extend to the minister a hearty invitation to come this summer and pay this reservation a visit.


Andrew Knox: Is there any expenditure on what is known as the Round Plain band of Sioux Indians north of Prince Albert?
[Mr. Meifihen.l


Charles A. Stewart: We have an expenditure in the Carleton agency of $552 in respect of that particular band.


Mr. MEIGHE NT:: Does the minister contemplate any reorganization of his department in the West? Has he in mind any change of status of any of the inspectors out there?


Charles A. Stewart: Not at the moment. The inspectors appear to be doing good work. I speak particularly of the two who operate from Regina. I think some change might be made which would be beneficial to the service, but I have not arrived at a definite conclusion about it yet.


Arthur Meighen: I would like to say this, and it has to do with what the hon. member for Victoria City (Mr. Tolmie) impressed upon the minister a few moments ago in relation to the improvement and the multiplication of cattle upon the reserves and the general farming success of the Indians. Every thing, or nearly everything, depends upon the efficiency, energy and fidelity of the agent. Our Indian agents are appointed by the Civil Service Commission, and I think, taken all through, the commission are as likely to get efficient agents as the minister would be if the appointments were made in his hands-in fact more so. They are just as liable to make a mistake-no more so; but they are not subject to the same pressure to apponit some one who is not efficient. But unless there is an official of extraordinary competence, and not only a good judge of the success or failure of an agent, but with the backbone to see that the agent, does his work or, if not, to recommend to the minister that his services be dispensed with, there will not be any multiplication of Indian stock and there will not be any improvement of Indian farming. I have in mind, of course Mr. Graham. I learned .to know something of the actual work of Mr. Graham in that regard, and the minister is very fortunate indeed in having a man who has the mastery over agencies that Mr. Graham has. An agent who fails should be discharged, because a whole lot results from his failure, and consequently there should be no principle of mercy whatever in dealing with him.
An agent ought to succeed or he ought to be discharged. The minister himself cannot, nor can a deputy or anyone else in Ottawa, be a correct judge of the work of an agent. You can tell a lot, I know, from the reports sent here, but it is only by being in constant touch with the reserves themselves

Supply-Indian Affairs
that the quality of the agent's work can be gauged. This work is under observation from month to month and from year to year by the inspector, and the agent is aware of this and knows the inspector is going to visit him. Unless that is the case there is likely to be lassitude and lethargy on the part of the agent and poor results will follow. That is the suggestion I make to the minister.
He states there has been a diminution of Indian stock in the last ten years. I believe that is correct. But what I think is also correct is that up to the. time the jurisdiction of Mr-. Graham was extended, about live or six years ago, the diminution had gone on pretty rapidly. In certain agencies where effective men were in charge, and as the drones were one by one moved away and better men put in their places, there was an improvement in cattle production. I do not know what the result has been this last year or two. I would not think the improvement had continued, because, as everyone knows, there has been a general diminu- , tion of stock all over the West, and the Indians may have had the same experience as others; the depression may have operated among them with the same result as it has operated among the white people. But, subject to that consideration, there was an improvement for some little time, and the minister will never be able to continue the improvement or advance upon it unless he succeeds in weeding out poor agents and getting efficient men in their stead.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
British Columbia, $269,850.
Mr. MacKELVIE:: What has been done regarding the appointment of an inspector of agencies in southern British Columbia to succeed the late Major McGraw?


Charles A. Stewart: It is still before the Civil Service Commission.


John Armstrong MacKelvie: And Kamloops?


Charles A. Stewart: The same.


Edward Joseph Garland: What is the explanation of the increase of $2,730?


Charles A. Stewart: Statutoiy increases of salaries to the officials.


Mr. LADNER:: How many Indians are at present in jail on account of pot-latching?


Charles A. Stewart: I am informed there are not any.


Leon Johnson Ladner: I saw by the press a few days ago that Magistrate Halliday of Alert Bay had sent down some Indians.
Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil: We have no report.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General, $147,500.
Samuel William Jacobs: I do not know whether under this item I can ask the minister respecting the sensational reports that appeared in the newspapers a few days ago regarding the expulsion of certain halfbreeds from Caughnawaga reserve near Montreal. It was reported that some of these people who had been living for a considerable time on the reserve were expelled without notice and were becoming public charges on the adjoining municipalities.


Charles A. Stewart: I have rather a lengthy report on this matter. The purport of it is that a white man married a native woman on the reserve, and an arrangement was made with the Indian father-in-law under which the white man undertook to maintain him in return for a lease of his holding. This arrangement the white man did not carry out to the satisfaction of the father-in-law, who wished to have the agreement cancelled. The outcome was that the council of the Caughnawaga Indians took action by resolution asking for the removal of the white man from the reserve, and in compliance with that request a constable was sent down to remove the man. In the meantime he disappeared across the boundary and unfortunately his wife and children, who by marriage forfeited their right to remain on the reserve, had to be ejected at the request of the council. That is all that happened; there was nothing sensational about .it. It was merely carrying out the request of the council itself. There is no intention of going any further with the matter or of removing anybody else.


Samuel William Jacobs: The newspaper report was highly sensational; it stated that about 2,000 people were ejected by this expulsion.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: I notice in this item the ' sum of $50,000, payments to Indians surrendering their lands under certain provisions of the Indian Act. In connection with the St. Regis reservation, certain islands in the river St. Lawrence were held under long-term leases, which in the last few years have expired. What islands are there in the St. Lawrence near the St. Regis reservation the leases of which have expired, and what is the policy of the department in. that connection?
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Charles A. Stewart: This question is before the courts for decision and in the meanwhile we cannot give a very direct reply.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: What islands are involved in the controversy?


Charles A. Stewart: We have not that information, but we shall be glad to get it for my hon. iriend and send it to him to-morrow.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indians-Indian education, $1,943,702.
Robert James Manion: Would the minister explain the increase of over half a million dollars?


Charles A. Stewart: 
Robert James Manion: The minister spoke of a school being reopened. How did the Indians get along without that school, and why is it that just at the present time it requires to be opened? I am only asking for informa-ion.


Charles A. Stewart: There have been a number of cases in which day schools have been found to be entirely ineffective because you could not get an attendance. That applies in connection with the reopening of this particular school. The department attempted to carry on the educational '.work on some of these reserves by day school,

but it was found that proper results could not be obtained except by the boarding school method.


Robert James Manion: The teachers are mostly white girls and men, are they not?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes. They are practically all qualified teachers.


Robert James Manion: Some of the Indians have taken teachers' courses and are teaching in the schools?


Charles A. Stewart: Some in Ontario, but none in the West.


Robert James Manion: The cost of building
materials is now from 60 to 70 per cent in excess of pre-war prices. There is no doubt that within the next two or three years these prices will drop very considerably. In many parts of Canada both private and corporation building is being held up for that very reason, and I was wondering whether, by occupying other buildings temporarily for a time, there could not be a great saving to the country by not proceeding with these building operations just now. I do not suppose the prices will ever come down to a pre-war basis, but they will undoubtedly be reduced by 30 or 40 per cent in the next two or three years. It would be well worth while, I should think, for the minister and his department to consider holding these buildings up for the present, when costs are so very high.


Charles A. Stewart: I have
exactly the same ideas as my hon. friend, but this is an acute situation. I have pointed out to the committee that , not since the beginning of the war have any improvements been made to any appreciable extent to any of these buildings. As to the building at Kamloops I am sure my hon. friend would not house his stock in the building there in which they are attempting to carry on educational work, and I think my hon. friend for Calgary will bear me out in that. I examined the building myself. Many of these appropriations that I am asking for so far as buildings are concerned are being asked for because the buildings are absolutely tumbling down. I have no reason to doubt the word received by letter from a good Catholic priest who is doing a splendid work in northern British Columbia when he declares that the building there will not stand for another year, that the work has been put off repeatedly and the school is likely to fall down upon them at any time. I did not see that building myself, but having seen some of the others I am willing to take his word for it. In the

case of Edmonton, the Red Deer school has been closed with the promise of a school at Edmonton, and we have to provide the accommodation. All these are cases of the utmost urgency or I would not have asked for these appropriations.


Robert James Manion: I quite understand the minister's position, and I do not doubt his word for a moment. I also quite understand that in some outlying sections, say in northern British Columbia, it may not be possible to get other quarters temporarily, but it would seem to me that in a large city like Edmonton it should not be very difficult to obtain temporary quarters in which to carry on until the prices of materials come down and the buildings could be built more cheaply. I do not intend to raise any further objection, but I would suggest to the minister that in the larger centres such as Edmonton, where no doubt temporary quarters could be obtained in which to carry on this school work, the department should postpone erecting buildings until prices reach something like a normal figure. I do not want to suggest, because a little while ago I was taking the part of the Indians in a general way, depriving them of the necessary education they require.
I would be the last to do that, but I believe that under certain circumstances and in certain centres the same education might be given in temporary quarters until such time as prices reach a noimal level.


Thomas George McBride: I have been engaged in the building supplies trade for twenty-five years and I can see no prospect of building material coming down. When you talk about building material coming down I say that expenses and taxes have got to come down first. In pre-war days my taxes at Vancouver were less than $1,100. Now they are over $12,000, and that has to be added to the cost of the material. That is only one item. Indeed I can see no chance of building material coming down.


Robert James Manion: I admit that what my hon. friend says about building material is true to a certain extent at any rate but wages are being paid to-day which are materially higher than we paid before the war and I hope for the sake of this country that even the cost of materials may come down and that at least wages will come down below one dollar an hour which is being paid to certain trades at the present time. I hope that will happen for the good of the country, and I think it will happen in the next few years. I have had the privilege recently of reading the opinions of men who have given this question lifelong study, and it is their opinion and advice
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in the case of any large buildings involving a considerable expenditure to wait for prices to come down.


Samuel William Jacobs: Change your immigration regulations and then I think you can go on with the work.


Robert James Manion: They are not mine.


Mr. WARNER:: While I have sympathy
with the position taken by my hon. friend for. Fort William, I happen to know the conditions at Edmonton. It is almost impossible at the present time to get quarters for the white children in the city, and it would be impossible to get any quarters in the city of Edmonton for an Indian school. I believe that it would be the part of wisdom to postpone expenditure on buildings where temporary quarters could be obtained, but this cannot be done at Edmonton. They have carried on under 'such difficulties that I believe the department is justified in going ahead and building this school for the Indians who have been moved to Edmonton from the old Red Deer school.


Samuel William Jacobs: Would the minister explain
why the change is being made from Red Deer to Edmonton?


Charles A. Stewart: I cannot
give my hon. friend full information because it was done prior to my coming into office, but I am told that the reason was in part that Edmonton was more central, easier of access and better for the children.


Samuel William Jacobs: I thought it was perhaps
for the same reason that Sam Hughes ordered the arsenal to be brought from Quebec to Lindsay.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian Affairs-salaries, 5149,380; contingencies, 519,000.
Leland Payson Bancroft: Will the minister explain the increase in this item?


Charles A. Stewart: It is made
up purely of statutory increases. There is no change in the number of officials.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Further Supplementary Estimates, 1923-Department of Indian Affairs-salaries-
To provide for one Accountant, Grade 3, at $2,580 in lieu of one Accountant, Grade 2, at $2.460	$ 120 00
To provide for one Accountant, Grade 1, at $1,620, in lieu of one Senior Clerk-Bookkeeper at $1,560	
To provide for one Senior Clerk-Book-keeper at $1,380, in lieu of one Clerk-Book-keeper
at $1,110	 [DOT][DOT]
To provide for one Senior Law Clerk-Stenographer at $1,365, in lieu of one Law Clerk-
Stenographer at $1,320	
Contingencies-further amount required	
60 00
270 00
45 00 1.000 00
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Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Are these
permanent employees?


Charles A. Stewart: No, they are nearly all temporaries. Inereases are being provided by the Civil Service Commission as follows: $120, $60, $270 and $45.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Pensions-European War and Active Militia, $32,500,000.
Henri Sévérin Béland: I suppose that hon. members would like to have a few statistics placed before them as to the number of pensioners and other matters.


Robert James Manion: May I interrupt the minister for a moment. I do not know whether my point will be well taken or not but this is one of the paramount questions before the country to-day. There is also the fact that a royal commission has been sitting and taking evidence in the matter of pensions, and its interim report has not been altogether favourable. I am just suggesting this to the minister in the interest of his own department, in the interest of publicity and in the interest of making the soldiers throughout the country understand the conditions: I suggest that he might hold this item over and make a statement regarding pensions-giving the statistics he wishes to give and explaining any regulations which, may have been changed-before a larger House, and perhaps earlier in the day, when the discussion would receive a certain amount of publicity which it would not get to-night. I say that in the interest of the minister himself and of his department. I suggest that it would be well to hold up this item until we can get a report from the royal commission which is sitting. Would the minister mind telling me if he is expectingi to have the final report of the royal commission shortly?


Henri Sévérin Béland: The interim report of the commission was laid on the table some two or three weeks ago, and it deals with pensions and the Returned Soldiers Insurance Act. No feature of the Pension Act will be referred to in the final report whenever it is submitted. It is somewhat doubtful whether the commission will be in a position to submit that report before the session is over. What I consider to be the main portion of the commission's report-that is the part which bears upon pensions and returned soldiers insurance-is dealt with extensively in the report that has been brought down. I have no objection at all to postponing the consideration fMr. C. A. Stewart.]
of this item, but may I point out that in consequence of the recommendations made by the commissioners regarding pensions and insurance, amendments to the Pension Act and to the Returned Soldiers Insurance Act will have to be introduced into this House before the end of the session. Then, of course, full opportunity -will be given for hon. gentlemen to discuss the report. The estimate which is now submitted for consideration was prepared under the direction of the Board of Pension Commissioners for the year 1923-24. I hardly think this would be the proper occasion to discuss the Pension Act. The proper time, if I may be permitted to express the view, would be when the amendments to the Pension Act are introduced.


Robert James Manion: May I further interrupt the minister for a moment? I would agree with him to a certain extent except that when the amendments to the Pension Act are introduced it will probably be-so far as one can see now-towards the last of the session. Suppose the session should be over by the end of May; some of us think it may be over by that time.


Mr. GRAHAM:: Hear, hear.


Robert James Manion: I am expressing my personal opinion.	.


George Perry Graham: I am too.


Robert James Manion: Suppose the session should be over by that time, then the amendments to the Pension Act would be brought in probably in the dying days of the session, as the favorite expression is, and would probably be rushed through in such a manner that there would not be an adequate opportunity for the discussion which may be desired upon this question. If the minister will look around he will see that the vast majority of the members are Pot present, and I do not suppose there is any member who does not wish to mention perhaps some particular suggestion regarding pensions-I should think at least, that one-half the members of the House may have some remarks to make upon the subject-and I would like to suggest to the minister, while I will not hold the item up otherwise-that it would be wise to delay this matter. After all, this is the item upon, which members should discuss pensions in general-not 'the Pension Act but pensions in general. I would therefore suggest to him that he should hold the item over until there is a fuller attendance of members. I would remind him that there are a number of committees sitting to-night, notably the Banking and Commerce committee which is consider-

Supply-Re-establishment
ing the Bank Act. This committee requires the attendance of a large number of members and will be sitting for some time yet.


Mr. RINFRET:: It will probably sit until about the end of the session.


Robert James Manion: Possibly. A better opportunity for bringing this matter up would be earlier in the day when there is a much better attendance of members. I suggest that in all fairness to hon. gentlemen the minister would be well advised to hold this question over and in the meantime go on with some other item.


Mr. HUMPHREY:: There has already been one report submitted by the commission appointed to investigate certain charges against the pension commissioners, and as that report has not yet been printed and circulated I would also respectfully urge the minister to hold this estimate over until those of us who desire to do so ha've had the opportunity of digesting it. Personally I would like to go into the report of the commission thoroughly with a view of bringing out certain suggestions regarding the vote that is before us tonight. I would respectfully urge the minister to defer this item as I am well aware there are many hon. members, some of whom are not now present, who wish to go into the question very fully.


Mr. WOODSWORTH:: I should also like to .join in the request which has been addressed to the minister. I have had resolutions forwarded to me by the Great War Veterans' Association in my own constituency relative to this matter and I cannot intelligently present their views until I have the report of the commission before me.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have not the remotest desire to curtail the discussion on the question of pensions. On the contrary I invite the fullest discussion, the fullest expression of opinion; I think it would be beneficial to the department generally. On the other hand if those hon. members who are now present take this opportunity of expressing their views it would occupy us until pretty late this evening. The only reason, I
10 p.m. think, that can be invoked for not proceeding with the estimate at the present time is the fact that hon. members have not been able to peruse the report that has been laid on the Table, owing to its not having been printed and distributed yet. That will be done, I presume, within probably a week. I have no objection at all to holding this item over till later in the session. I am an old member of the House and hon. members may take my word for it
that the nearer we get to the end of the session the less time is devoted to the discussion of questions which are of general interest to the members.


Robert James Manion: The statement the minister has made gives exactly the reason that I desire to adjourn the discussion on this item because his proposition was that we should carry this item and then have the discussion on the amendment to the Pension Act, which will probably not come till later in the session. My suggestion would be-and I have no desire to hold up the item-that at the closing of the House on some particular day, the minister tell us that he will go on with this item the next time we are in Committee of Supply. The members [DOT]who are attending the Banicing and Commerce committee will be aware of the fact that the question of pensions is to come up on the following day, and if they do not choose to come in and discuss anything they wish to discuss, it is their responsibility.


Henri Sévérin Béland: May I ask whether to-morrow would suit the hon. member?


Robert James Manion: It would suit me quite well.


Mr. SHAW:: I want to join most hteartily with those who are anxious to get the report of this special commission before discussing the pension matters. I have not seen an exact copy of the report, but I have seen little sections here and there. I think it is highly important that we should have that report in our hands and have an opportunity of perusing it before this particular item can be discussed intelligently, and I would, therefore, suggest that the matter be left over until we have an opportunity of perusing that report.


Henri Sévérin Béland: This is a reasonable request after all, and I hope the report will be distributed within ten days or possibly a week. As soon as members have had time to peruse it, we will submit the item for the consideration of this House. I would move that the consideration of this item be postponed.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to. *
Item stands.
Marine Hospitals, including grants to institutions assisting sailors-further amount required, $20,000.
Henry Herbert Stevens: Will the minister give us an explanation of the item?


Henri Sévérin Béland: This supplementary amount is required for the last fiscal year. The [DOT] amount voted last year was $95,000. Hon. members will probably remember that, when we passed the main estimates of the Health department this session, we provided for an
Supply-Re-establishment

amount of $115,000 for, I think, marine hospitals. We found that we were short about $20,000. The amount is made up of unpaid accounts, $10,000; salaries of port physicians, $5,200; and estimated amount of account for hospital treatment, etc., that will be used before March 31, $5,172. The reason for the additional amount is the increase in the number of vessels which call at the different ports and consequently the larger number of sick mariners who have had to be attended to, hospitalized and cared for. Referring only to the number of vessels which call at Grosse Isle, below Quebec, during the year 1922, we had 903 vessels calling there from foreign ports or from ports from another province, which means the same under the Shipping Act, and in the year previous only 709 vessels had called at that quarantine station. There is a difference of 200 at Grosse Isle. But all over the country the number of ships has increased, and that is the reason why $20,000 is required for the fiscal year just ended.


Henry Herbert Stevens: This has to do with the sick mariners dues?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes. The amount of course is paid in to the Receiver General.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Salaries and contingent expenses of the Board of Pension Commissioners for Canada-additional amount required, $2,000.
Henri Sévérin Béland: This is a small amount required by the Board of Pension Commissioners for contingent expenses during the fiscal year.	[DOT]


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Soldiers' Civil	Re-establishment-Unemployment
Relief-further amount required to provide assistance to unemployed Pensioners and to their dependents in the amounts and under the conditions laid down by the Governor in Council in Order in Council P.C. 721, dated March 31, 1922, as amended by Order in Council P.C. 911, dated May 3, 1922, and amendments thereto; and to provide for salaries and other expenses of administering the provisions of said Orders in Council, $400,000.
Robert James Manion: Will the minister explain that item?


Henri Sévérin Béland: This covers the relief that is extended to returned soldiers who come under the supervision of the department. In other words, it is relief extended to pensioners or disabled soldiers entitled to receive a pension. The amount is greatly reduced from the vote of the previous year. In 1921-22, $2,100,-. 000 had been voted for the unemployment relief of disabled soldiers. Out of the appropriation, $1,764,000 in round figures was spent.

In the year 1922-23, $500,000 was voted. As in the previous year, the amount was totally inadequate to meet the situation, and at the end of last session $150,000 was voted in the Supplementary Estimates. We find that $400,000 more will be required to cover the expenditure of the year ended 31st March last. In other words the total amount required will be $1050,000. The amount actually expended is $1,019,000 a reduction over the previous year of about $740,000. I do not know whether the hon. member wants to know by unit the amount expended.


Robert James Manion: Yes, but there is another point. Has the minister any figures regarding the number of soldiers who were unemployed during the past winter as compared with the year before? I know that the number was smaller because there was less unemployment generally.


Henri Sévérin Béland: For the year 1921-22 the total number of times men were granted relief was 132,597; in 1922-23 it was 71,175, a considerable reduction. Giving round numbers, the amount spent in Montreal for 1922-23 was $191,000; Halifax, $57,000; Ottawa, which is a unit, $38,000; Toronto, $427,000; London, Ontario, $20,000; Winnipeg, $73,000; Regina, $18,000; Calgary, $43,000; Vancouver, $101,000; St. John, which is a sub-unit, $25,000.


Robert James Manion: Has the minister any figures in that connection for Port Arthur or Fort William?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have not those details; they are included in Winnipeg unit, $73,000.


Robert James Manion: As a matter of fact, I do not think there was any expenditure there, but I wanted to find out definitely. I may be wrong, but I do not think there was any expenditure.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am ready to accept my hon. friend's word.


Robert James Manion: The minister did not give me the number of men who were unemployed during the past winter.


Henri Sévérin Béland: The figures I have would apply only to disabled pensioners. I have given the total original issues of relief.


Robert James Manion: The minister, I take it, has not the figures in reference to the unemployed soldiers who were not disabled.


Henri Sévérin Béland: No, I have not got that.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Did I understand the minister to say that a little over half a million was spent last year for relief?

Supply-Re-establishment


Henri Sévérin Béland: I said $1,019,000 ; that was for the year just ended March 31st.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: What proportion of that went for administration?


Henri Sévérin Béland: In round numbers, $55,000.
I may point out that all the men employed in the extension of this unemployment relief are returned men, mostly disabled. This is the way in which we extend the relief; we employ the men.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Does this item include the assistance given to the Red Cross Society? There is a place in Vancouver where provision is made for a number of disabled soldiers. Does this item include a grant to that institution?


Henri Sévérin Béland: The hon. member is referring to the workshops?


Henry Herbert Stevens: Yes.


Henri Sévérin Béland: No; that matter was provided for in the Main Estimates.


Robert James Manion: Did the item of nearly a million dollars in the Main Estimates carry ' This is a supplementary estimate.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes.


Mr. McQUARRIE:: What is being done by the government in the way of securing employment for returned men ? I know that in British Columbia during the past winter a large number of disabled returned men were out of employment and some of the newspapers found it necessary to put on a campaign for the purpose of securing work for them. The campaign was fairly successful and it showed what can be done in that direction. In former years under the previous government I believe that the minister's department took active steps in this connection and did endeavour to secure employment for returned men, particularly those who were disabled. Is the present government continuing that work, and if so, what is it doing?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Up to a recent date employment was secured for disabled soldiers through our own offices in every unit in Vancouver, Calgary, Regina, Winnipeg, London, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Halifax, and St. John. We have decided to hand over this section of our work to the government employment bureau in every province. At present in British Columbia, which perhaps interests my hon. friend more than any other province, the provincial employment office has a handicap section whose duties consist
in procuring employment exclusively for disabled soldiers who make application there. From that handicap section a man goes out and covers the ground as completely as possible with a view to finding a job that will fit in with the disability of the particular applicant. This we think works more satisfactorily than the previous system because naturally the employers would place their request for labour in the employment office of the province; and each province is willing to have a handicap section in its midst. Every job is first of all offered to disabled soldiers. If a disabled soldier is qualified to take the position, he is of course awarded it. We make it a point to give the preference to returned men. This I think works out quite satisfactorily.


William Alves Boys: This vote takes care of the
situation to the 31st March last?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes.


William Alves Boys: Have there been any requests
for relief since that date?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes. It is covered in the Main Estimates, but there is a decrease of $150,000.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: What do
the two orders in council refer to?


Henri Sévérin Béland: These orders in council
were passed last year, one to extend the relief in the month of April, and the other in the month of May. The relief ceased during the summer months.


William Garland McQuarrie: Does the Dominion
government contribute to the expense of keeping up the provincial employment offices?


Henri Sévérin Béland: That is mainly a question for the Minister of Labour to answer, but I think I am within the mark when I say that 50 per cent is contributed for the upkeep of these offices. As far as the handicap section is concerned, we as a department pay the whole cost.


William Garland McQuarrie: What supervision has
the Dominion government over the employment officers of the province to see whether they are carrying out their duties satisfactorily?	[DOT]


Henri Sévérin Béland: In every unit we have
special officials to attend to this supervision. I am not able to speak for the Labour department, but I presume they have their representatives also in every capital.


William Garland McQuarrie: What is meant by every unit?
Supply-Health

Mr, BELAND:	The Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment has a unit in most of our important cities, including Vancouver, Calgary, Regina, Winnipeg, London, Toronto, Montreal and Halifax, and sub units at Victoria and St. John, N.B.


William Garland McQuarrie: Does the minister get
reports from these units?


Henri Sévérin Béland: By all means, and very
often, too.
Mr. McQUARRIE r Are these reports available?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Any public document is
available for any hon. member. All he has to do is to make a motion for its production. If my hon. friend wants to see these reports, and will go to the department, I am sure he will be afforded every facility for their inspection.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Civil Government-Health-salaries, $152,950; contingencies, $70,400.
Robert James Manion: What is the increase in
this item?


Henri Sévérin Béland: There is really no increase. It will be seen on referring to page 88 that there is a reduction of $600 in the contingencies. In civil government the increase is $5,642.50, made up as follows: Statutory increases $3,822.50; promotions and adjustments, $1,220; one temporary clerk-heretofore paid out of contingencies-now made permanent and paid from the civil government vote, $600. We have not one more employee in the department than we had last year.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: What particular work is done by the department?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I think my hon. friend
must have been out of the House when I passed my main estimates. I then gave in detail the work of the department. We look after the supervision of all the quarantine stations, the medical inspection of immigrants, and the adminstration of the Food and Drugs Act, the Opium and Narcotic Drugs Act, the Housing Act, and we are engaged in other activities as well. '


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: I notice that some of what the minister describes as statutory increases are increases of $240, $260, and in one case $360. Surely those are not statutory increases?


Henri Sévérin Béland: We could not pay them any other way. I have no authority to grant
I Mr. McQuarrie.]
an increase to any permanent employee in my department; he must be classified by the Civil Service Commission and receive the salary attaching to his position. I am sorry I cannot give my hon. friend the details in each case, but I think the increase varies in proportion to salary. $240 is an ordinary statutory increase for a certain salary.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: I think possibly I am right, Mr. Chairman, in thinking these increases are not statutory. I notice here one principal clerk at $2,400. This must be a promotion?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Some of
these are promotions?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: The department is responsible for the promotions, but the Civil Service Commission is responsible for the statutory increases; is that the way it works out?


Henri Sévérin Béland: No promotion can be
granted an employee unless the Civil Service Commission vouches for it.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Exactly;
but the department asks for it in the first place?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I think the employee asks for it.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Does the
employee get an increase when he asks for it?	*


Henri Sévérin Béland: If an employee has been in the service for say, thirteen, fourteen or fifteen years, and at the age of forty, say, has reached his maximum of perhaps SI,600, and he asks to be promoted to a higher class, that is a legitimate ambition for any man in the service. Then if he qualifies to the satisfaction of the Civil Service Commission he is promoted to another class and gets a yearly increase until he reaches his maximum.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: I notice that the statutory increase involves a certain relatively small sum each year, but promotion may involve anywhere from $200 to $300 or even more. I quite understand the minister's explanation, but is there any rule which the department follows under which an employee who has served a certain length of time is entitled to promotion if there is a vacancy in the class above?

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Henri Sévérin Béland: I do not know that there is any specific time. The deputy head would in such a case make a recommendation to the minister that a certain employee who had rendered faithful service and had been at his maximum salary for a number of years should be promoted. That is submitted to the commission, and if they approve they classify him accordingly and he gets the higher salary; if not, he remains where he is. I know of cases where civil servants have applied for promotion and the application has been refused.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Were any of these promotions made by transfer to the higher grades from other departments, that is, other than within the department itself?


Henri Sévérin Béland: No.


Levi William Humphrey: Do I understand the minister to say that this department has charge of the Housing Act?


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes.


Levi William Humphrey: What are the duties of that branch at the present time?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I have not the details before me; that explanation was given when the main estimates were under consideration. It is one of the smaller activities of the department.


James Arthurs: How many officials administer the Housing Act?


Henri Sévérin Béland: I do not believe we have any outside the accountant.


William Garland McQuarrie: What proportion of employees in the Health department are returned men?	*


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am unable to say. The department, of course, comes under the Civil Service Commission. As my hon. friend is aware, under the Civil Service Act preference is given first to returned men, disabled men being given the first consideration. This rule, I think, is applied strictly to my department whenever we have an appointment to make, but very few appointments are being made at this time.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Mail subsidies and steamship subventions-Atlantic ocean-Canada and Newfoundland, steam service or services between, $35,000.
Mr. GARDINER:: I suggest that the minister allow this item to stand. Certain members are much interested in these matters and would like to discuss them; they were unaware that the minister's estimates would be brought forward to-night.


James Alexander Robb: It was intimated _ last evening that these estimates would come up to-day. I would like to make some progress: If there are any special matters that hon. members wish to discuss they can deal with them subsequently on items which we will hold over for the purpose. I imagine we will not get through them all to-night.


Thomas George McBride: I do not see why these items should be held over simply because certain members do not feel like attending here regularly. It is the duty of every member to be in the House when estimates come up.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I believe the Banking
and Commerce committee is sitting this evening, and a large number of members are in attendance. I just came from there myself.


Henry Herbert Stevens: There are no new items, are there?


James Alexander Robb: If we come to any new items they can stand.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I have looked over the first page and there do not appear to be any new items. If the minister will make an explanation of these, and, as is the custom, reserve an item so that any points that come up may be discussed later, that seems to me to be a reasonable way of dealing with the matter. '


Robert Gardiner: The committee could very well proceed with items 179 and following, "local services."
Item stands.
Local services-Charlottetown and Pictou, steam service between, $8,000.


James Arthurs: Steamship rates and all prices along that line have been falling during the last two years, but the government are apparently asking for the same sum this year at last4 Is there no reduction in any of these items on this account?


James Alexander Robb: In most cases the amount is the same as last year. As a matter of fact, representations were made that in some cases the amount should be increased. With respect to this particular item, No. 179, I imagine we shall have to give an increase for that service. They lost some money last year, in fact they have been losing money for a number of years, and were going to discontinue the service.


James Arthurs: Is that true of all these
services?


James Alexander Robb: No, very few of them.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


James Arthurs: Are these various services under contract with the steamship companies at a specific sum?


James Alexander Robb: These local services that we have under consideration are under contract renewed from year to year and subject to the amount being voted by parliament.


James Arthurs: Does that apply to all these items?


James Alexander Robb: No, to some of these local items. These services are largely to provide transportation for Canadian citizens who have no railways to serve them, and it is very much cheaper for the country to provide this service than it would be to build railways for them.


Mr. BROWN:: Does this include carrying the mails?


James Alexander Robb: Yes, the mails are carried free.


James Arthurs: The minister's previous remark would apply only to certain services, not to the Canada-New Zealand service, Prince Rupert and San Francisco, and so on. Are these also under contract from year to year?


James Alexander Robb: Those items are standing for further consideration.


James Arthurs: They are all under the same heading and I was just asking for information.


James Alexander Robb: Some of these contracts run for a number of years.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Grand Manan and the mainland, steam service between, $15,000.
James Arthurs: What is the population of Grand Manan approximately?


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Are these steamships privately owned?


James Alexander Robb: Privately owned.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Can the government's boats not be used on any of these services?


James Alexander Robb: Not many of the government boats are suitable for these services.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: What were the Canadian Government Merchant Marine boats built for? They do not seem suitable for anything.


James Alexander Robb: My hon. friend is in part correct with regard to some of the smaller ves-

sels. Some of them are hardly suitable for upper lake traffic or for coast traffic.
Answering my hon. friend for Parry' Sound, I have not the figures but my recollection is that the population of these islands is about 7,000.


James Arthurs: My recollection is that it is very' much under 4,000, and at that figure it would mean that we are paying $4 a head for this sevice, which to my mind seems excessive.


James Alexander Robb: Even if my hon friend is correct and there are only 4,000 Canadian citizens on these islands producing products, does he think the government should not provide transportation for them?


James Arthurs: I do not suggest that for a moment, but I think $15,000 is quite a large amount, and we have many places in Canada where there are 4,000 Canadian citizens who do not get as good a mail service.


Robert Gardiner: The minister remarked just now that there were four or five thousand people in this particular district that required transportation. Does the minister mean to-apply that same principle to the outlying parts of northern Ontario, Quebec and the Northwest Territories, where people are living fifty and sixty and one hundred miles from a railway?


James Alexander Robb: Generally speaking it has been the policy of governments in the past to provide transportation so far as possible for its citizens. These people are among the oldest settlers in Canada and are living in probably the oldest part of Canada. They are somewhat differently situated from people on the mainland. They live on islands or along the coast.


James Arthurs: Does the minister say that this amount is for the purpose of providing transportation facilities for these people? The estimate is for post office and mail service.


James Alexander Robb: These ships carry the mails free.


James Arthurs: Then this $15,000 is to provide transportation for these people on the island?


James Alexander Robb: For the transportation of their products and carrying the mails.


James Arthurs: In other words, as the minister says that they cany the mails free, this item is to provide transportation for these people back and forth to the mainland. How does that come under the Post Office Department?

Supply-Trade and Commerce


James Alexander Robb: It is part of the contract that in addition to providing transportation for the products of the district the mails and a certain number of government officials shall be carried free.


James Arthurs: I cannot for the life of me see how an estimate should be required for the post office when the mails are being carried free, and I do not see why this amount should be asked for providing mail service for this particular district when other people in other districts have to go in some cases a hundred miles without any subsidy.


Robert Gardiner: I did not mean to imply that these people should not be supplied with transportation facilities. I am satisfied that they should have some means of communication provided, but I maintain still that it is just as essential that people who are living, and have been for twenty or twenty-five years, from sixty to eighty miles from a railway should receive equal consideration. That is the point I desire to make.


James Alexander Robb: It is very reasonable.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Halifax and Newfoundland, via Cape Breton ports, steam service between, $5,000.
Donald MacBeth Kennedy: How long have these services been going on?


James Alexander Robb: Many of them for a number of years. They are all voted from year to to year; that is the local services.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Have they been going on for twenty or thirty years?


James Alexander Robb: I could not say just how long.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Halifax and West Coast of Cape Breton, calling at way ports, steam service between, $6,000.
Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Is there
competition in the case of most of these services? Do the vessels belong to separate companies, or are they largely owned by one company?


James Alexander Robb: The service is performed by different companies although they have an interchange of business; it is arranged that that shall be done. Some of the vessels do not run through to the port of Halifax, others do not run through to Cape Breton, and they may have an interchange of trade so that the shipper can ship right through from one port to the other.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Has. the
minister any control over rates?


James Alexander Robb: Yes, the rates are subject to the approval of the minister.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mainland and islands of Miscou and Shippegan, service between, $3,300.
Mr. SPEAKMAN:: I presume part of this money is paid for the carriage of mail alone..


James Alexander Robb: Yes.


Alfred Speakman: Has the minister, or his department, ever made any estimate as to what would have to be paid for the carriage of mails alone, regardless of what is paid in the form of subsidy?


James Alexander Robb: I do not know that any such estimate has been made. In the case of some of the items I have a record of the amount of mail carried. When we come to one of them I will tell my hon. friend what that record is.


Alfred Speakman: Yes that would give us an idea.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mulgrave and Canso, steam service between, $13,500.
Leland Payson Bancroft: This seems to be a large amount for a service across the strait between these two points?


James Alexander Robb: This service is from Mulgrave to Canso. There are certain deductions made when the vessel does not make the regular trips specified. Now here is a record in connection with this service. In 1914 they carried 3,724 bags of mail. In 1922 they carried: 6,183 bags of mail.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Is this a daily service?


James Alexander Robb: A daily service.


Alfred Speakman: The minister's answer, I think, is very satisfactory. It shows that quite an appreciable amount of the subsidy would have been paid for the carriage of mail' if paid on that basis.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mulgrave and Guysboro, calling at intermediate ports* steam service between, $9,500.
James Alexander Robb: This service indicates that we have been carrying all along from 1,783 to 3,000 bags of mail.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Who owns-the boat?


James Alexander Robb: The Elaine Steamship Company, Limited, of Halifax.


William Alves Boys: On what basis is the subsidy granted, on a basis of so much per mile per trip?

Supply-Trade and Commerce


James Alexander Robb: On a basis of so much a season with a penalty clause. If they do not make the number of trips specified they are penalized.


William Alves Boys: I mean comparing one service with another. The vote for one service is $9,000, on another $8,000, on another $6,000 and so on.


James Alexander Robb: The services are arranged on a basis of getting the work done as cheaply as we can. The same contractors have been doing this work for a period of years; it is very seldom there is a change. Sometimes the contractor fails and we have to advertise for new tenders, or make the best arrangement possible in order to provide a service.


William Alves Boys: Are the contracts for a period of years or yearly?


James Alexander Robb: These contracts are all signed each year and are subject to the vote of parliament.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Pelee Island and the mainland, steam service between,
William Alves Boys: There ought to be lots of
traffic there?


James Alexander Robb: Yes, there is some traffic there.


William Alves Boys: That is where most of the Ontario native wine comes from, is it not?


James Alexander Robb: I am told it is very good wine.


William Alves Boys: Oh, excellent.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Pictou, New Glasgow and Antigonish county ports schooner service between, $1,500.
Mr. CHURCH:: I understand that these vessels which get subsidies from the Dominion are privately owned and that there is no control over the rates which they charge. In view of the evidence which has been brought out before the commis-
11 p.m. sion which was inquiring into matters of shipping on the Great Lakes, is it the intention of the government to have these services and the rates charged by them placed under the control of the Railway Commission?


James Alexander Robb: In view of the subsidy granted by the government the contract provides that the rates charged shall be subject to the approval of the minister and the mails are carried free.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Port Mulgrave, St. Peter's, Irish Cove and Marble Mountain, and other ports on the Bras d'Or lakes, steam service between, $8,000.
Thomas Langton Church: Is it the intention of the government to do anything towards regulating the rates on water-borne traffic in the way of controlling passenger and freight rates on boats that receive a subsidy from the government? I think they should be under the control of some public body, such as the Railway Commission. Of course the boats running from Toronto to Niagara which charge such high rates for freight and passengers do not get a subsidy I admit, but other boats do receive a subsidy and I think there should be some control over boats doing government work, and even over boats not doing government work. There should be some public control over the freight and passenger rates of these ships but at present there is no control. An inquiry has been held recently in regard to the rates on the Great Lakes and it shows that the companies have been getting together and fixing rates and that a huge monopoly exists. I think the boats on the gulf and Atlantic coast that receive a subsidy should be under the control of some public body in regard to their ratesin fact whether they get a subsidy or not, I think their rates should be controlled. The time has come to place them under some control, so that the public shall not be held up by the high rates, both freight and passenger, charged to-day not only by the boats that receive subsidies but by those that do not. It might not be in the department of the minister who is in charge of these estimates but he might let us know what the government intends to do regarding this monopoly.


James Alexander Robb: There is some force in the
argument of my hon. friend, but that matter comes under another department. We control the rates on the subsidized lines, and the other lines are not now under consideration.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Pictou, Sourig and the Magdalen islands, steam service between, $24,000.
Leland Payson Bancroft: How many boats are
employed on this line?


James Alexander Robb: The contractor for this service is the Magdalen Transport Limited. The contract was entered into in 1921, and runs from the opening of navigation in 1921 to the close of navigation in 1925, but this is one of the sendees that did not pay, and the contract was cancelled at the end of 1922 as the service did not comply with the tender and specifications. We invited tenders on the 16th March.

Supply-Trade and Commerce
Three steamers offered for the service, but the inspector, Mr. Tupper, reported against one of the steamers as unsuitable for the service, and the other steamer was on another route, but we did the best we could for the people on the Magdalen islands. I might say right here that in addition to the subsidy voted by this parliament, these people also receive a subsidy from the province of Quebec. The Magdalen islands are 120 miles out in the gulf, and there are, I think, nine or ten thousand inhabitants, largely fishermen, their product, of course being largely fish. The best we could do for them this year was to make arrangements with the former contractors to carry on for this season. Advertisements are now out inviting tenders for a new service. We are advertising for two services, one from Pictou to Magdalen islands, and one from Magdalen islands up to the port of Quebec, and when the tenders are in the department we will consider which of the services will be the most economical and of the greatest advantage to the people of the Magdalen islands, because, after all, they are the people we want to serve. I might say in passing that I recall one year, I think the year before last, when the government was compelled to send a special boat there to take in supplies to carry the people over the winter; otherwise they would have been out of flour and provisions.


Leland Payson Bancroft: It is not the intention
of the department to maintain the two services?


James Alexander Robb: No, we will decide which will be the better, after consultation with the people of the Magdalen islands.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Quebec, Natashquam and Harrington, and other ports on the north shore of the Gulf of St. Law [DOT] rence, steam service between, $85,000.
William Alves Boys: This item is increasing rapidly. I have been looking at the estimates for the preceding years, and I notice that in 1921-22 the amount was $50,000 and I see now that it is $85,000. What reason is there for that very large increase?


James Alexander Robb: The service was extended dowD much further, I forget the mileage. I think it went down 80 or 90 miles further, almost to the point.


William Alves Boys: Quite a different service?


James Alexander Robb: Yes, and the only way we were able to secure this service was by giving them a contract for a period of years. There is a development along there of lumber mills and pulp mills, and the people require provisions.
Prior to this service they were served at the lower point from the island of Newfoundland and now the business comes up this way.


Thomas Langton Church: Does the minister intend to extend the subsidy policy for water-borne traffic to the boats on the St. Lawrence and the Great Lakes that might perform similar services for the Trade and Commerce department? I should say that this policy might be extended to the Great Lakes. At the present time there is a monopoly on the Great Lakes. All the small boats are frozen out, with the result that high freight and passenger rates are being charged, particularly for package freight. I think the department should extend the principle of granting subsidies on similar terms to boats on the Great Lakes. There are many people who would take advantage of the work the department is doing along that line. I think the department should do all they can to encourage water-borne traffic and thus obtain cheaper rates for carrying mail and everything else.
At present operating on the lakes is a steamship monopoly and it is working in with the railways. The people on the north shore of lake Ontario, between Toronto and Belleville, used to have water-borne traffic and the advantage of small boats going up and down, and they regulated railway rates for six months of the year. The same condition prevailed at Sarnia, at Owen Sound, at Oakville and in the Niagara district. A steamboat merger froze them all out and left those places at the mercy of the railways.
I think there should be equality of treatment and if the Maritime provinces are going to get the benefit of steamship subsidies, then Ontario and the Great Lakes and the other provinces in central Canada should have the benefit of them also. The people on the Great Lakes should be considered. In the United States to-day the principle of subsidies has been recognized, and has been applied on lakes Erie, Huron and Ontario. There is a boat coming into Toronto belonging to the Kirkwood line; that is run without a subsidy. They are carrying freight cheaply from the Maritime provinces up to Hamilton, Toronto, Cobourg and other places, and are conferring a great boon in regard to package freight on the wholesale and retail merchants who are getting cheaper rates from that Kirkwood liner. , They are doing a great deal to benefit trade and commerce. There is a small boat running up to Toronto and these places I mentioned, and the retail man is able to get his goods on time, and is able

217G

Supply-Trade and Commerce
to get bargain freight rates as a result of dealing with this particular line. Many retail merchants are. asking for this privilege and I hope the minister in the recess will look into it, and see if there is not some way of ex-< tending this very admirable system of steamship subsidies to many boats on the Great Lakes so as to enable them to regulate and bring down freight and passenger rates. Competition by water traffic is one of the most important factors in the problem of solving transportation in central Canada to-day, and I believe that we can extend this principle to the head of the lakes. It would confer a boon on the public generally.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Quebec or Montreal, and Gaspe and ports on the south shore of the Gulf of St. Lawence, steam service between, $30,000.
Donald MacBeth Kennedy: There are cases parallel to this in northern Alberta. There are large sections of the country ther served by river steamers in the summer months, one company covering over three thousand miles. Are these companies entitled to the subsidy?


James Alexander Robb: I am aware that there are steamers plying in the North on the Mackenzie, but there is no record in the department of any request for a subsidy. We should have to be satisfied that any such request was reasonable, and if my hon. friend can give us that satisfaction we shall be glad to take the matter into consideration.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
St. John and Bear river, and other wavport3, steam service between, $2,000.
William Alves Boys: This is a new service.


James Alexander Robb: It was established last year.


William Alves Boys: There are one or two members who want to speak on this item.


James Alexander Robb: We will let it stand.


William Alves Boys: I will ask that item 208 be allowed to stand too.
Item stands.
St. John and Digby, steam service between, $15,000.


Robert Gardiner: There seems to be a duplication between this item and the next.


James Alexander Robb: The two items relate to difer-ent services. One goes to St. John and Digby and the other runs up to Annapolis and Grenville.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Is this the Canadian Pacific line between St. John and Digby?


James Alexander Robb: Yes, the contractors are the Dominion and Atlantic Railway Company.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Is this the subsidy for the boat that goes from St. John to Pictou along the Bay of Fundy and into the Minas basin to Windsor, in Hants county


James Alexander Robb: No, that is another item.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
St. John and ports on the Bay of Fundy and Minas
basin, steam service between, $8,000.
James Alexander Robb: The hon. member for Simcoe wishes to have this item stand.


Lewis Herbert Martell: I understand that this is the item that refers to the service between St. John and intermediate ports to Windsor. If so I should like to have a report from the minister as to how it has been performed. There has been some complaint from the merchants of Windsor and the people of that place that the service is not satisfactory.
Item stands.
St. John, Westport and Yarmouth and other waybasin, steam service between, $8,000.


Thomas Langton Church: Does this item come under the British North America Act? Is it a work for the general advantage of Canada? I think that the provinces should contribute in part to work of this local character. I am glad to see the Maritime provinces get all that they can because they deserve as adequate transportation facilities as can be provided them. At the same time, however, I think that the principle of subsidizing steamboats in the Maritime provinces should be extended throughout the country generally to the head of the lakes. It may be argued that this is work for the general advantage of Canada. If so, is it the intention of the government to extend it to Ontario, where there are many towns along the Great Lakes that have no railway facilities, and many flag stations? A steamboat service on the Great Lakes is one that is badly needed from the standpoint of coal supplies and from the point of view of the farming interests. Owing to the lack of proper transportation facilities the crops in these localities have to lie on the ground and the result is there is under-production, rural depopulation and unemployment, with consequent economic distress. It has been stated by transportation people that the cure for this condition in the central provinces is the extension of the principle of transportation by waterway which is nursed and provided in the Maritime provinces by federal subsidies. I have no objection to the subsidizing of these Maritime

Supply-Trade and Commerce
province boats because they are necessary, but I think the government should look into the question as to whether the work is really for the general advantage of Canada. I think personally that the provinces should contribute something to it. This service is a necessity; it is not by any means a luxury; and if these subsidies are necessary in some of the provinces then undoubtedly the principle should be extended to Ontario and the Great Lakes as well. There are many towns on the north shore of lake Ontario and in central Ontario on the lakes which are dead simply because of the lack of transportation facilities. A few years ago they had a steamboat service but they were unable to continue. Boats used to cross lake Erie, lake Ontario and the Georgian bay to international ports and as well to various ports on the Great Lakes within our own border. But this service has been cut off, with a result that many towns have declined in population. I am not urging that there be any curtailment in respect of the Maritime provinces, but I think that the whole policy of cash grants to those provinces should be extended to the provinces of central Canada, especially for the benefit of those small towns along the Great Lakes that are now suffering because of the lack of water-borne facilities. Take Picton, in Prince Edward county, for example ; this used to be a large steamboat town but this winter not a single ship wintered there. Because of lack of transportation facilities the farmers of Halton-Mr. Drury's own constituency

cannot get their crops to market. I am surprised my hon. friends of the Progressive party from the province of Ontario are not standing up and asking for equality of treatment for their province. No part of the Dominion is suffering so much from rural depopulation to-day as is the province of Ontario. Therefore I am urging on the government the extension of this policy to the other cities and towns on the Great Lakes. In the United States from Buffalo all the way down to Toledo and Detroit every community is served by water transportation, and I think we should adopt the same principle and extend it to the head of the lakes.


Mr. MacLAREN:: Do not these services carry mails?


James Alexander Robb: The subsidized services.


Lewis Herbert Martell: This item is for a subsidy for boats carrying mails and general supplies from New Brunswick to Nova Scotia. Therefore it is in the interests of interprovincial trade, and I cannot see how the
139i
remarks of the hon. member for North Toronto (Mr. Church) are applicable, much as I appreciate him. When my hon. friend asserts that the great province of Ontario is entitled to the same consideration as the Maritime provinces, I have no dispute with him; but if the people of the Maritimes, particularly the people of Nova Scotia, are to carry on trade they must of necessity get federal assistance.


Thomas Langton Church: If my hon. friend thinks I am objecting to this vote he is mistaken.


Lewis Herbert Martell: I am not saying that my hon. friend is objecting-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


Lewis Herbert Martell: I am only making a plea from the standpoint of Nova Scotia, and in spite of all the cries of "carried" I will not be forced to take my seat until the Chairman declares me out of order. The other day an associate of my hon. friend's party in Nova Scotia-and I have no fault to find with that party, except to say that I disagree with its members and think they are usually wrong- moved in the legislature that Nova Scotia should secede from the Dominion. There are many people in the province who hold that view. The premier in moving an amendment said, "We are not anxious to secede, but we do demand lower tariffs, lower freight rates and greater facilities for trade." That is the platform on which I stand, and I want to tell the hon. member for Toronto (Mr. Church), whom I regard as a great personal friend, that if that secession feeling is not to grow to an alarming extent we must of necessity get our just demands in Nova Scotia. I believe the object of these subsidies is to encourage interprovincial trade, at least in the Maritime provinces. Nova Scotia suffered by confederation more than any other province, and Ontario profited most; and as far as I am concerned, whether my political life be long or short. I shall raise my voice at all times and on all occasions to demand that proper treatment be accorded to Nova Scotia-that we be given lower tariffs, lower freight rates and the best possible terms that can be secured for any province under confederation.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I rise to correct my hon. friend for Hants (Mr. Martell) in the statement he made; it would not be right to let it go unchallenged. We had been patiently letting these items pass when he interjected his inaccurate observations. He stated that these were subventions for the promotion of interprovincial trade. Some of them are; most
Questions

of them are not. My hon. friend built up a very elaborate, picturesque and imaginary argument upon that hypothesis, which was wholly wrong and I merely wish to make this correction.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Inspection of subsidized steamship services, $4,500.
Robert Gardiner: What is the reason for the increase of $500? A similar question was asked in regard to the increase of $6,000 on item 212, but the minister did not give an answer. Perhaps he will now furnish us this information on both items.


James Alexander Robb: The service between Sydney and Whycocomagh-item 212-was temporarily suspended owing to the old boat having foundered during the year, and we had to give an additional subsidy for a new steamer. The increase in item 214 is for the inspector of the steamship services.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Mackenzie King, the House adjourned at 11.30 p.m.
Wednesday, April 25, 1923