1923-02-26

SELECT STANDING COMMITTEES


Hon. W. S. FIELDING:: (Minister of Finance) moved:
That the name of Mr. Power be substituted for that of Mr. Walsh on the select standing committee on Banking and Commerce; that the name of Mr. Lovett be substituted for that of Mr. Putnam on the select standing committee on Marine and Fisheries; and that the name of Mr. Putnam be substituted for that of M. Lovett on the joint committee of both Houses on the Library of parliament.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. W. S. FIELDING (Minister of Finance moved:
That a message be sent to the Senate to inform their Honours that this House has substituted the name of Mr. Putnam for that of Mr. Lovett on the joint committee of both Houses on the Library of parliament.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. S. W. JACOBS (George Etienne Cartier) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 28 to amend the Railway Act, 1919.
He said: This bill is similar to one which I introduced into the House last year but which met with an untimely end in the Railway committee. I hope to have better luck with the bill this time. The bill seeks to amend the Railway Act to provide that a return ticket issued by any railway company between any two points in Canada shall be accepted by any other railway company whose line runs between the same termini.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. S. W. JACOBS {George Etienne Cartier) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 29 to amend the Criminal Code.
Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: Explain.


Mr. JACOBS:: The amendment which the bill embodies will be known as 329A of the
Questions

Criminal Code. It provides that the proprietor of any newspaper who fails to register in the office of the Secretary of State for Canada a declaration as to the ownership of such newspaper shall be guilty of an indictable offence and be liable to two years imprisonment or a fine of $1,000, or both.


Mr. STEVENS:: Soon it will be a crime to walk across the street.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



SEDITION

[Stage Direction]
Mr. J. S. WOODSWORTH (Centre Winnipeg) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 30 to amend the Criminal Code.
He said: This bill, except for a change in form, is the same as that introduced last year and reported to the House, but which did not reach the stage of discussion. It proposes to amend the Criminal Code in some points relating to sedition and also to re-enact the safeguards to the individual which existed before the amendments of 1919.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 25, respecting a certain patent of Arthur R. Wilfley.-Mr. Chevrier.
Bill No. 26, to amend the act incorporating "La Societe des Artisans Canadiens Framjais". -Mr. Seguin.
Bill No. 27, respecting a patent of Hans M. Olson and Esther Maud Butcher.-Sir Henry Drayton.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: 1.	Have any applications been made under the statutory provisions relating to the marking of imported goods with the name of the country of origin? If"so, by whom has application been made and in respect of what goods?
2.	Has the government pjade any orders in council regarding such marking of goods?
3.	If so, (a) what are the names and addresses of those requesting such action, and (b) what is the nature of the goods affected by such orders in council?
4.	Upon what grounds were such orders in council made?
5.	Were other applications made for similar action by the government which have not been acceded to?
IMr. Jacobs.l
6.	If so, (a) what was the character of the goods in respect of which such action was desired and what are the grounds which constrained the government not to issue orders in council as applied for?
7.	Have any general regulations been adopted regarding the issuance of orders in council with reference to marking imported goods, and, if so, what are the regulations?


Hon. Mr. BUREAU:: 1.	Yes.
The Ideal Aluminium Products Co. Ltd., Metal Stampings Ltd., and E. T. Wright Company in respect of imported aluminium ware.
The Shoe Manufacturers Association of Canada, Montreal, in respect of imported boots and shoes.
Lawson & Jones, Limited, London, Ont., in respect of imported boxes used by druggists and jewellers.
The Thos. Davidson Manufacturing Co., Montreal, P.Q.; Sheet Metal Products Co., Toronto; and McClary Manufacturing Co., London, Ont., in respect of imported enamelled ware, lithographed metal signs, boxes and other metal receptacles.
Canadian Lithographers Association, Montreal; Rolph-Clark-Stone, Ltd., Toronto; Howell Litho Co., Hamilton; Murray Printing Co., Toronto; Graphic Arts Section, Canadian Manufacturers Association, Montreal, P.Q.; Mortimer Co., Ottawa; The Quebec Typo-thetae; Vancouver Typothetae; Winnipeg Typothetae; Dominion Press Limited, Montreal; and United Typothetae, Toronto, in respect of printed and lithographed matter.
Other applications were made verbally to the Minister of Customs and Excise.
2.	Order in Council Sept. 21, 1922.
3.	(a) The Thos. Davidson Manufacturing Co., Montreal, P.Q.; Sheet Metal Products Co., Toronto; McClary Manufacturing Co., London, Ont.; Canadian Lithographers Association, Montreal; Rolph-Clark-Stone, Ltd., Toronto, Ont.; Howell Litho. Co., Hamilton, Ont.; Murray Printing Co., Toronto; Graphic Arts Section, Canadian Manufacturers Association, Montreal, P.Q.; Mortimer Co., Ottawa, Ont.; The Quebec Typothetae, Quebec; Vancouver Typothetae, Vancouver; Winnipeg Typothetae, Winnipeg; Dominion Press Ltd., Montreal, P.Q.; United Typothetae, Toronto, Ont., and other applications verbally, (b) Printed or lithographed matter of all kinds, including books and pictures, and wooden or fibre lead pencils.
4.	Public interest.
5.	Yes.
6.	(a) Aluminium ware, boots and shoes, enamelled ware, boxes used by druggists and jewellers, and boxes and other metal receptacles. (b) Not deemed expedient.
7.	No.

Questions



FUEL SUPPLY


Mr. SUTHERLAND:: What quantity and value of eaoh of the following commodities have been imported into Canada during the past year, and what amount of duty was collected on each: (a) agricultural machinery or farm equipments; (b) meats; (c) animal grease, oils or fats; (d) milk and milk products; (e) cattle, calf and sheep skins, green or salted; (f) wool; (g) eggs; (h) apples, green; (i) potatoes; (j) fish and fishery products.


Hon. Mr. BUREAU:: Value of Imports, as Specified, Entered for Consumption in Canada, and Customs Duty Collected
Thereon, During the Calendar Year 1922.
Item	Value	Customs Duty
	$ 7,732,215 9,286,552 2,977,100 2,325,897 0,747,824 3,883,433 2,476,906 914,862 450,909 2,800,980	$ 660,464 16 1,815,609 42 311,817 93 267,184 52 651 72 244,216 22 153,525 60 69,487 60 315,509 79
		
		
		
		
(/) Wool..'	'	.7			
		
		
		
		
		
Imports Entered for Consumption Calendar Year 1922
Items	Unit	Quantity	Value	Duty(a) Agricultural Machinery or Farm Equipment-	S	$ 13,713	$ cts. 1,379 70$	9,412	FreeNo.	5,484	216,134	FreeCultivators and weeders, and parts	$	46,228	6,584 72
Questions

Imports Entered for Consumption Calendar Year 1922-Continued
Items
Agricultural Machinery or Farm Equipment

Con.
Traction ditching machines not more than $3,000 value
and parts	
Drills, seed	
Portable engines for farm purposes	
Repairs for traction engines	
Traction engines not more than .$1,400 for farm purposes. Traction engines, n.o.p., for farm purposes and repairs...
Fanning mills	
Fodder or feed cutters	
Forks, pronged	
Grain crushers	
Harrows and parts	
Harvesters, seif binding	
Hay loaders	
Hay presses	
Hay tedders	
Hoes	
Horse rakes	
Knives, hay or straw	
Knives, edging	
Mowing machines	
Manure spreaders	
Ploughs, and parts	
Post hole diggers	
Potato diggers	
Rakes, n.o.p	
Reapers	
Rollers, farm, road or field	
Scythes	
Sickles, or reaping hooks	
Spades and shovels	
Threshing machine separators	
Threshing machine separator parts	
Windmills and parts	
Parts of agricultural implements	
All other agricultural implements	
Milk machines and attachments, centrifugal machines for testing butter, fat, milk, etc. (From May 24,
1922)	
Grading machines, fruit or vegetable. (From May 24, 1922)	
Total agricultural machinery	
(b)	Meats-
Beef, fresh	
Beef, pickled, in barrels	
Mutton and lamb, fresh	
Pork, fresh	
Bacons and hams, etc., cured	
Pork, barrelled in brime	"
Pork, dry salted	
Poultry and game, n.o.p	
Sausage	
Other meats, fresh	
Other meats, salted	'	'	'
Dried or smoked meats and meats preserved, n.o.p....
Canned meats	
Extracts of meats	'
Soups	
Total meats	
(c)	Animal Oils and Fats-
Grease rough for manufacture of soap and oil	
Grease and degras for stuffing leather	''''''
Lard	'
Lard compound, animal stearine, etc	]
Lard oil	*' ' * ' * '

Unit	Quantity	Value	Duty
		$	$ cts.
No.	u	30,286	FreeNo.	811	32,219	4,806 58No.	1	506	88 56$	734,961	FreeNo.	4,592	2,411,653	FreeNo.	88	312,617	54,689 33No.	297	9,487	1,610 30No.	885	67,621	10,342 2cNo.	4,344	3,276	675 45No.	85	4,658	801 05*	71,508	9,904 62No.	1,582	253,694	25,450 96No.	3	87C	130 50No.	148	41,347	11,370 49No.	1	2S	4 35No.	3,584	1,755	378 37No.	18C	5,585	737 39No.	2,115	1,738	261 90No.	197	208	42 91No.	409	23,188	2,447 84No.	60	5,567	766 86S	571,680	93,265 50No.	1,111	1,424	250 65No.	928	69,664	10,904 25No.	3,638	2,112	464 67No.	30	2,220	222 20No.	26	8,137	1,572 75Doz.	530	6,200	1,286 92Doz.	336	834	149 87Doz.	2,852	15,646	4,248 85No.	1,922	1,631,115	245,750 65S	621,704	97,259 62s	34,046	5,95S 46$	266,943	31,486 80$	192,834	33,759 44$	6,515	977 25No.	30	2,881	432 157,732,215	660,464 16Lbs. '	110,566	32,250	3,316 98Lbs.	858,900	53,465	17,176 00Lbs.	2,061,025	344,014	58,160 15Lbs.	34,708,132	5,321,788	1,041.243 96Lbs.	4,544,009	672,349	90,876 37Lbs.	11,560,950	1,226,744	231,217 00Lbs.	1,536,363	196,348	30,727 26S	67,449	13,297 31Lbs.	349,966	108,081	6,999 32Lbs.	275,418	29,684	8,258 39Lbs.	88,785	18,619	1,775 70Lbs.	140,563	32,822	2,811 26Lbs.	1,569,812	282,481	71,420 65s	110,694	21,586 58s	789,764	216,742 499,286,552	1,815,609 42Lbs.	15,973,504	1.077,938	FreeLbs.	1,515,844	70,227	FreeLbs.	10,232,095	1,105,854	204,641 90Lbs.	2,739.658	268,960	53, 732 41Gal.	20,633	19,329	4,726 55
Questions
Imports Entered eor Consumption Calendar Year 1922-Continued
Items	Unit	Quantity	Value	Duty
			%	$ cts.
(c) Animal Oils and Fats-Con.				
Oleomargarine	Lbs.	1,032,405	172,738	FreeOleo oil	Gal.	8,833	7,827	1,369 72Neat's-foot oil	Gal.	0,232	7,005	1,751 25Other animal oil, n.o.p	Gal.	56,509	42,373	7,397 20Tallow	Lbs.	876,458	65,537	13,107 40Candles, n.o.p	Lbs.	458,895	80,309	19,809 35Beeswax	Lbs.	221,352	59,003	5,282 15Total animal oils, fats, etc	
(d) Milk and Milk Products-	2,977,100	311,817 93S	33,841	5,922 59Milk, condensed	Lbs.	232,285	51,823	7,635 72Butter	Lbs.	6,396,836	1,912,519	216,399 31Casein	Lbs.	535,703	61,185	16,826 02Cheese	Lbs.	686,754	266,529	20,400 88Total milk and milk products	
(e) Cattle, Calf and Sheep Skins-	2,325,897	267,184 52Calf skins, raw	Lbs.	5,466,304	1,289,548	FreeCattle skins, raw	Lbs.	32,847,294	5,114,662	FreeSheep skins, raw	Lbs.	2,764,390	343,614	Free6,747,824	(/) Wool-	Wool, etc., not further prepared than washed, n.o.p	Lbs.	15,885,150	3,877,036	FreeLeicester, Cotswold, Lincolnshire, South Down combing	wools, or wools known as lustre wools and other like	combing wools such as are .grown in Canada	Lbs.	21,724	6,397	651 723,883,433	651 72(ff) Eggs	Doz.	8,140,547	2,476,906	244,216 22Qi) Apples, green	Brl.	170,584	914,862	153,525 60(i) Potatoes, n.o.p	Bush.	347,453	450,909	69,487 60(i) Fish and Fishery Products-	Cod, haddock an pollock, fresh	Lbs.	1,186,761	44,026	6,757 11Cod, haddock and pollock, pickled	Lbs.	261,114	10,005	96 00Cod, haddock and pollock, smoked	Lbs.	590	44	2 15Cod, haddock and pollock, dried	Lbs.	7,563,857	449,538	703 37Halibut, fresh	Lbs.	2,746,009	220,638	24,517 41Herring, fresh	Lbs.	237,942	6,038	259 14Herring, canned	Lbs.	326,015	49,865	13,225 99Herring, smoked	Lbs.	1,361	257	8 61Herring, pickled	Lbs.	10,167,744	297,100	8,201 42Mackerel, fresh	Lbs.	52,254	5,154	522 54Sardines, anchovies, etc., in tins	Boxes	4,021,992	384,993	84,648 38Salmon, fresh	Lbs.	2,792,977	179,001	25,226 00Salmon, canned	Lbs.	518,461	28,838	19,921 18Salmon, smoked	Lbs.	21,285	6,489	210 45Salmon, pickled	Lbs.	455,777	27,984	37 52S	24,134	Free$	4,220	562 50Lobsters, canned	Lbs.	59,231	40,239	113 40$	4,24(	FreeOysters, fresh, in shell	Brls.	2,499	20,197	5,049 25Oysters, shelled, in bulk	Gals.	133,390	282,065	13,339 00Oysters, canned	Cans	150,345	27,225	4,561 63Oysters, prepared, n.o.p	Lbs.	13,008	7,941	2,382 30Bait, fish, fresh	Lbs.	1,800	24	18 00
Questions

Imports Entered for Consumption Calendar Year 1922-Concluded
Items
O') Fish and Fishery Products-Con.
Fish, smoked or boneless	
Fish, preserved in oil, n.o.p	
Fish, all other, fresh	
Fish, all other, pickled	
Fish, dried, n.o.p	
Fish, preserved, n.o.p	;
Live fish and fish eggs for propagating purposes
Fish oil, cod liver	
Fish oil, other, n.o.p	
Seal oil,	
Whale oil	
Ambergris	
Sponges, marine	
Fish offal or refuse	
Other articles, fisheries	
Total fish and products	
Unit	Quantity	Value	DutyLbs.	25,274	$ 4,380	$ cts. 222 96$	43,040	14,705 00Lbs.	1,128,560	96,959	10,892 28Lbs.	786,245	64,593	1,645 83Lbs.	336,610	78,862	3,069 87$	139,848	38,716 41$	3,299	FreeGal.	ii3,938	67,984	2,906 24Gals.	28,357	16,362	3,616 77Gals.	13,010	8,133	FreeGals.	13,914	9,288	2,041 27$	251	Free$	82,436	13,501 41$	7,961	Free$	56,729	13,828 402,800,980	315,509 79


CANADA HIGHWAYS ACT-ONTARIO
Mr. ANDERSON:: 1.	What was the original amount appropriated to the province of Ontario by the Dominion government under the Dominion Highways Act?
2.	What amount has been paid to the Province of Ontario out of this appropriation to date?
3.	In what counties has this money been spent, and how much in each county by the Department of Highways of the province of Ontario?
4.	Has there been a request from government officials or any member of the government of Ontario for a further appropriation of money for good roads?


Hon. Mr. GRAHAM:: 1.	$5,877,275.00.
2.	$3,374,247.29.
3.	Ontario, $123,154.27; Durham, $71,662.46; Northumberland, $149,771.25; Hastings, $191,052.04; Lennox and Addington, $131,907.75; Frontenac, $273,794.83; Leeds, $209,387.05; Grenville, $206,640.57; Carleton, $378,371.32; Wentworth, $256,534.46; Lincoln, $194,091.24; Brant, $101,864.10; Oxford, $99,078.55; Middlesex, $44,522.86; Elgin, $35,787.79; Kent, $11,261.17; Haldimand, $179,239.44; Wellington, $40,916.80; Lambton, $35,822.50; Perth, $95,088.37; York, $47,426.56; Peel, $118,134.76; Hal ton, $81,488.44; Simcoe, $107,719.86; Russell, $132,640.84; Prescott, $56,888.01.
Accounts for 1922 operations have not yet been presented to the Federal Highways branch for audit by the Ontario Department of Highways.
4.	No.


CUSTOMS AND EXCISE SEIZURES
Mr. IRVINE:: 1.	What number of customs and excise seizures were made at the ports of Montreal, Toronto,

Hamilton, Winnipeg, Calgary and Vancouver, for the period of six	years ending December 31,	1922?2.	What	are the	names of the	informers?3.	What	are the	names of the	officers who	made
such seizures ?
4.	What	amounts	were paid to	informers?5.	What	amounts	were paid to	officers who	made
seizures?


Jacques Bureau: Customs	Exfcise
	Seizures	Seizures
Montreal	
952	413Toronto	
215	279Hamilton	
31	57Winnipeg	
293	114Calgary	
113	20Vancouver	
569	1022,	3 and 4. This information is regarded as confidential.
5.
Montreal.. Toronto.. Hamilton. Winnipeg. Calgary.. Vancouver
Amounts paid to	Amounts paid to
Informers	Seizing Officers
Customs Excise Customs Excise


$15,364 32 5,524 25 307 08 10,272 56 4,584 23 3,770 21 $20,367 84 14,503 92 6,011 61 11,740 92 1,902 00 9,359 49 $38,099 14 10,119 83 1,713 19 11,435 76 5,907 87 18,090 57 $26,280 65 9,771 56 5,639 45 15.223 50 1,091 40 8,751 04 GEORGIAN BAY GRAIN MOVEMENT
Mr. LAPIERRE :: 1.	How	much	American grain did	Georgian	Bay
elevators handle during the year 1922?
2.	How	much	Canadian grain did	Georgian	Bay
elevators handle during the year 1922?
3.	How much money has parliament voted up to present time for the improvements to the French river in Nipissing?
4.	How	much	of the money voted	by parliamentfor the improvement of the French	river is	there
remaining unspent?

Questions


Hon. Mr. COPP:: Bushels
1. Carry-over from 1921 (including
Goderich	 1,942,600
Receipts	 55,976,089
Shipments	 56,141,428
In store	 1,777,272
Bushels
2.	Carry-over from 1921 (including
Goderich)	 10,373,322
Receipts	 68,990,212
Shipments	 69,348,125
In store	 9,915,291
3.	$1,903,500.00 as follows:-
Fiscal year	Voted	Expended1910- 1911	$ 12,000.00	$	296.961911-	1912	
12,000.00	6,282.351912-	1913	
11,200.00	4,327.081913-	1914	
12,500.00	1913-	1914	
500,000.00	cap.	33,597.891914-	1915	
500,000.00	cap.	68,354.431915-	1916	
450,000.00	cap.	45,697.041916-	1917	
400,000.00	cap.	45,083.951918-1919	
5,800.00	5,779.64$1,903,500.00	$209,419.344.	$1,694,0S0.66 lapsed, nothing at present available.


POTATO EXPORTS TO UNITED STATES
Mr. MICHAUD:: 1.	Has the hounourable Minister of Agriculture or any other member of the government received any official confirmation of the recent Washington despatch intending that all contemplated instructions upon the export of Canadian potatoes into the United States after February 1, 1923, have been withdrawn?
2.	If so, will such be made public for the benefit of the Canadian potato growers who are much perplexed and alarmed at the prospect of being shut out of the United States market altogether as the imposition of the proposed instructions referred to would undoubtedly have resulted in?


Hon. Mr. MOTHERWELL:: The Federal Horticultural Board of the United States Department of Agriculture recently * passed an amendment to their regulations governing potato importations, to come into effect February 1, 1923. Under this amendment, shipments of Canadian potatoes could be imported only when accompanied by a certificate from an officer of the Canadian Department to the effect that they were free from injurious diseases or insect pests.
As it was at once apparent that considerable difficulty would be involved, and considerable expense incurred if the Canadian department were required to furnish this additional inspection service, an officer of the
department was sent to Washington to interview the Federal Horticultural Board, and endeavour to have the matter reconsidered. He received a sympathetic hearing, and the members of the board intimated that in view of the cordial relations that have existed between the Federal and United States departments in efforts to prevent the introduction into the continent of North America of plant diseases and insect pests from abroad, they would withdraw their action towards Canada in connection with this particular amendment to their regulations.
The following press notice has just been received from the official press service of the United States department:
U.S. Department of Agriculture, office of the Secretary.
Withdraws restrictions on import of potatoes from Canada and Bermuda
Washington, February 13: The United States Department of Agriculture to-day issued the following notice of the withdrawal of restrictions on the importation of potatoes from Canada and Bermuda other than such inspection as shall be deemed necessary from time to time:
Amendment No. 2 to regulations governing the importation of potatoes into the United States withdrawn.
Notice is hereby given of the withdrawal of amendment No. 2 revising the paragraph governing the entry of potatoes into the United States from Canada and Bermuda in regulation 7 of the regulations governing the importation of potatoes into the United States. This amendment was promulgated January 17, 1923, and was to become effective February 1st, 1923, and provided for official certification of the potatoes as to district of origin and as to freedom from injurious diseases and insect pests. The withdrawal of this amendment leaves without restriction the entry of potatoes from Canada and Bermuda other than such inspection as shall be deemed to be necessary from time to time to determine the freedom of such imports from injurious diseases and insect pests. The Federal Horticultural Board recommends this action after further consultation with the experts of the department and with the Dominion authorities, and in view of a general plan now under consideration to control under permit and inspection, the entry of all fruits and vegetables from foreign countries.
Henry C. Wallace,
Secretary of Agriculture.
This notice indicates that the entry of Canadian potatoes into the United States may be carried on just as in the past, so far as inspection is concerned, but shippers should certainly, in their own interests, avoid the shipment of potatoes hot of superior quality in every respect.
STORAGE ELEVATORS Mr. SALES:
' 1. In view of the fact that an extension is to be Built to the terminal elevator at Vancouver, of 500,000 bushels capacity, to cost $400,000 or 80 cents per bushel: Is the government aware that storage of a similar character is being constructed at the head of the Lake at a cost of 22 cents per bushel?
Questions


Hon. Mr. LAPOINTE:: 


RIDEAU CANAL WATER-POWER
[Stage Direction]
1.	No definite estimate has yet been submitted of the cost of providing additional storage capacity of 500,000 bushels to the present elevator at Vancouver. The amount of $400,000 tentatively suggested in this connection contemplates not only the construction of the additional storage capacity but also the additional connections with the conveyor system necessary for the larger operations.
The government is not aware that storage of a similar character is being constructed at the head of the lakes for 22 cents per bushel but the contractors who are building for that figure will have ample opportunity of bidding on the proposed work at Vancouver.

Mr. CARMICHAEL:: How many divorces were granted in Canada, by provinces, in each of the years from 1913 to 1922, inclusive ?


Arthur Bliss Copp: 
Hon. Mr. GRAHAM:: 1.	Yes.
2.	At Upper Brewers Mills, Februrary 11, 1895; at Lower Brewers Mills, March 14, 1896; last renewal, August 27, 1920; at Kingston Mills, Februarj'' 18, 1908.
3.	Upper Brewers Mills, during pleasure after six months' notice; Lower Brewers Mills, renewable every ten years forever; Kingston Mills, three terms of twenty-one years each.
4.	Leases cover surplus water not required for navigation, if available, as follows: Upper Brewers Mills, 25 h.p.; Lower Brewers Mills, 40 h.p.; Kingston Mills, all surplus water.
5.	Upper Brewers Mills, $1 per h.p. and $5 for land per annum.; Lower Brewers Mills, $1.50 per h.p. and $5 for land per annum; Kingston Mills, $191 per annum for water, $16 for land lessee to furnish electric current for 30 incandescent and 6 arc lamps free of cost to the Department.
6.	Upper Brewers Mills, to Robert Anglin; Lower Brewers Mills, to Wm. F. McBroom: Kingston Mills, to Kingston Milling Company.


RAILWAY GRADES, RATES, ETC.
[Stage Direction]
On Question No. 18, Mr. McBRIDE:
Hon. Mr. GRAHAM:: Mr. Speaker, this is another very long question that will take months of time and many pages of paper to completely answer. I doubt if the department is in a position to give all the details asked for, as some portions of the questions relate in large measure to the Canadian Pacific Railway and to the provincial governments. I ivould suggest that this question stand as an order for return, but I would point out that it will be some time before the order can be complied with, 'and I am afraid it will not be nearly so complete in detailed information as the question calls for.	.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Stands as an' order for
return.
May I call the attention of the hon. members to the unusual length of some questions that are nowT on the order paper? All the authorities on parliamentary practice both in England and in Canada are adverse to the very

Questions
lengthy questions, and I must discourage as much as possible their appearance on the order paper. Let me read from Bourinot, Fourth Edition at page 314:
Questions of excessive length with numerous or lengthy quotations have been ruled out.
And a series of precedents are given at the foot of the page. So, without questioning the necessity of the information required by hon. members, if we are to live up to the best parliamentary traditions and precedents, such a mass of information when required should not come under one head, and notice of motion should be given in each case.


ROUMANIAN AND GREEK LOANS
Mr. JACOBS:: 1.	Has any arrangement been arrived at between Canada and Roumania, and between Canada and Greece, respecting the indebtedness due this government by these countries?
2.	What is the present indebtedness due Canada by:
(a)	Roumania; and (b) Greece?
3.	Has any interest been paid by Roumania and Greece arising out of the credits given to these countries or has any portion of the original principal been paid?
4.	Is it a fact that the Canadian High Commissioner in London has arranged for conversion of the indebtedness due Canada by a funding of the obligations?


Hon. Mr. FIELDING:: 1.	The government of Canada has accepted a proposal from the government of Roumania for the funding of its debt. With respect to Greece, the original agreement, entered into in 1919, stands.
2.	(a) Principal, $20,449,104.49; (b) Principal, $7,520,473.17.
3.	By Roumania, no; by Greece, a portion of the interest only.
4.	See answer to No. 1. The arrangements for the conversion are being made through the High Commissioner in London.


Mr. CALDWELL:: 1. "What amount has been advanced to Greece on the credit or loan that was authorized by the Canadian government in April, 1919. and what rate of interest does this loan bear: (a) for foodstuffs; (b) for commodities other than foodstuffs?
2.	Has any repayment been made by Greece: (a) on interest of above loan; (b) on the principal of the above loan?
3.	If so, on what dates were such pa3'ments made?
4.	What amount has been advanced to Roumania on the credit or loan that was authorized by the Canadian government in April, 1919, and what rate of interest does this loan bear: (a) for foodstuffs;
(b)	for commodities other than foodstuffs?
5.	Has any repayment been made by Roumania: (a) on interest of above loan; (b) on the principal of the above loan?
6.	If so, on what dates were such payments made?


Hon. Mr. FIELDING:: 
HIGHWAY CONSTRUCTION GRANTS
Hon. Mr. STEVENS:: 1.	Is it the intention of the government during the present session to introduce furthei legislation providing for grants to aid in construction af highways in co-operation with the provincial governments?
2.	In cases where provincial authorities have failed to fully upend the amount allocated to them out Df the previous highway appropriation bill, is it the intention of the government to provide extension of time permitting such provinces to use the amount of t heir a ppropriat ion ?


William Stevens Fielding: 1 and 2. The question has not yet been fully considered.


MIDLAND POSTMASTERSHIP
Mr. HOCKEN:: 1.	How long has the postmastership at Midland, Ontario, been vacant, owing to the death of the late postmaster?
2.	Who has been in charge of the office since his death ?
3.	Has the postmastership received any recommendation from the Civil Service Commission of a person to fill the said position?
4.	Has any person been selected for the position?
5.	If so, what is his name?


Hon. Mr. GRAHAM (for the Postmaster General):: 1.	Since 13th Maj', 1922.
2.	Miss Mary Berry, assistant to the late postmaster.
3.	No.
4.	No.
5.	Answered by No. 4.


POSTAL STATION G, MONTREAL
Mr. DESLAURIERS:: 1.	What 'is the name of the employee whose care is to open the Postal Station G, at Montreal?
2.	What, was his occupation before his appointment to Postal Station G?
3.	Did he pass any competitive examinations?
4.	If not, why?
Hon. Mr. GRAHAM , (for the Postmaster General):
1.	Mr. Harry Vechsler, postal clerk, temporarily in charge.
2.	Postal clerk in city delivery section, general post office, Montreal.

Questions
3.	Yes, the usual examination on entering the service.
4.	Answered by No. 3.


TROOP REQUISITION FOR SYDNEY
Mr. STEWART (Leeds):: 1.	Was a troop train held in readiness on February 17 or 19, 1923, for despatch by Canadian National Railway to Sydney, Cape Breton, or any point in Nova Scotia?
2.	If bo, by whose orders was said troop train held
in readiness?
3.	Was the Department of Militia and Defence requested to furnish troops for special duty at the mines of the British Empire Steel Company?
4.	If bo, by whose request were said troops so requisitioned ?


Hon. Mr. GRAHAM:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	No.
4.	Answered by No. 3.


FIVE PER CENT EXCISE TAX
Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: 1.	What amount of revenue has been collected up to the end of the last accounting period under [DOT] the five per cent excise tax provided for by the legislation of last session on: (a) confectionery; (b) beverages (derived wholly or in part from cereals or substitutes therefor, unfermented fruit juices and imitations thereof, carbonated beverages or aerated waters, all other compounded or mixed soft drinks, sold by a person conducting a soda fountain, ice cream parlour, or other similar place of business)?
2.	What amount of revenue has been collected up to the end of the last accounting period under the excise tax of five cents per gallon provided for by the legislation of tast session on beverages (derived wholly or in part from cereals or substitutes therefor; unfer-niented fruit juices and imitations thereof; carbonated beverages or aerated waters; all other compounded or mixed soft drinks)?


Jacques Bureau: Excise taxes collected May 24, 1922, to January 31, 1923.
1.	(a) Confectionery, $328,491.94; (b) Beverages (five per cent), $23,576.55.
2.	Beverages (five cents per gallon), $307,175.46.


HAMILTON-BRANTFORD HIGHWAY
Mr. WILSON:: 1.	What has been the cost of the Hamilton-Brant-ford highway, and what is the mileage of same?
2.	What was the cost of the Hamilton-Brantford highway between the Toronto, Hamilton and Buffalo railway bridge and the village of Ancaster, and what is the mileage of this section?
3.	Does the total cost of the said highway include amounts paid for properties purchased in order to widen the roadway?
4.	What was the amount paid for such properties between Hamilton and Brantford on the above-mentioned highway?
5.	What will 40 per cent of the reasonable and actual cost amount to?
6.	What amount has been paid to the Ontario Department of Public Works by the Dominion government on the said highway?


Hon. Mr. GRAHAM:: 1.	Cost for federal aid purposes to date of last audit, 31st December, 1921, $596,230 mileage, 19.18.
2.	There are two crossings of the Toronto, Hamilton & Buffalo railway, one 3.1 miles east and the other 16.5 miles west of the village of Ancaster. The department has no information from which the cost of either of these sections can be separated from the whole.
3 and 4. The federal grant does not cover cost of right-of-way, consequently cost of property is not included in the answer to question No. 1.
5.	Forty per cent of actual, reasonable and necessary cost of the work under agreement with the federal government, estimated at $276,350.
6.	$238,492.


CALGARY AND EDMONTON RAILWAY
Mr. KELLNER:: What settlement, if any, was made between the government and those interested in the Calgary and Edmonton railway in respect of subsidy granted years ago for carrying mail for the Calgary and Edmonton line?


William Stevens Fielding: Under order in council of March 11, 1918, settlement was authorized on the basis of the company paying the balance of the principal plus the interest from July 25, 1911.


GRAND TRUNK ARBITRATION
Donald Ferdinand Kellner: What amount was paid to each commissioner in connection with the arbitration respecting the value of the junior securities of the Grand Trunk and subsidiary companies ?


George Perry Graham: Sir Thomas White, $29,000; Sir Walter Cassels (in addition to amount paid by Grand Trunk), $25,000; Hon. W. H. Taft, paid by Grand Trunk shareholders.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. WILSON:: 1.	What road projects have been submitted to the Dominion government by the Ontario department of Public Works for approval, under the Canada Highways Act ?
2.	What projects have been approved?
3.	What is the estimated cost of these road projects and the mileage as submitted by the Ontario Department of Public Works.
4.	What amounts have been paid by the Dominion government on these approved road projects?
5.	What is the amount payable to the province of Ontario under the Canada Highways Act?

Questions
6.	Of the estimated cost of projects submitted, what would 40 per cent of the reasonable cost amount to?
7. Has any request been made by the Ontario government for further cash assistance, other than that contained in the Dominion Highways Act?


RAILWAY GRADES, RATES, ETC.
Mr. McBRIDE:: 1.	What	are the	ruling	grades	on the	Canadian
National Railways against east and west bound traffic between the following points:-(a) Vancouver and the eastern boundary of British Columbia; (b) the easterly boundary of British Columbia to Fort William; (c) Fort William to North Bay; (d) North Bay to Toronto; (e) North Bay to Montreal?
2.	What	are the	ruling	grades	on the	Canadian
Pacific railway between:-(a) Vancouver and Revel -stoke; (6) Revelstoke and Canmore; (c) Canmore and Fort William; (d) Fort William and Montreal; (e) Montreal and West St. John?
3.	Was the section of the Canadian National railway through the Fraser River Canj'on, viz.: section between Kamloops and Hope, British Columbia, the most costly section of the said railway to construct west of Fort William?
4.	What was the cost of construction per mile of line of section of said railway through the Fraser River Canyon between Kamloops and Hope?
5.	What was the cost of construction per mile of line of the Canadian National railway between Ottawa and Montreal, including the Montreal tunnel?
6.	What was the cost of construction of the Canadian National railway per mile of line between the following points:-(a) between Montreal and Winnipeg, including the Montreal tunnel; (b) between Winnipeg and Vancouver?
7.	Does it cost more to haul freight over the C.P.R. between Vancouver and the prairies than it does to haul the same freight between Vancouver and the prairies over the C.N.R. or between Prince Rupert and the prairies over the Grand Trunk Pacific?
8.	When the C.N.R. Company and the G.T.P. Com pany commenced operations between the prairies anc Pacific coast points, were the said railway companie: allowed by the Board of Railway Commissioners t< adopt the scale of rates applied by the C.P.R., anc based on the cost of operation of the C.P.R. througl the mountains, and which said scale of rates wa: known as the mountain scale?
9.	Does the same scale of rates, viz.: the mountaii scale now in application apply to the C.P.R. on th< movement-of all goods in, to, from, or through British Columbia in the same way that the said mountair scale applies to the movement of goods over th< C.N.R. ?
10.	Is it the intention of the government to see that the rates on the C.N.R., where the said railways move through British Columbia on grades equally favourable to those obtaining on the prairies, are no higher than the prairie scale of rates?
11. Does the winter weather increase the cost of operating railways in the prairies and in eastern Canada over and above the cost of operating the same railways during the summer season?
12.	Is the C.P.R. divided into eight operating divisions, and are the operating expenses of the said railway kept by divisions, viz.: the divisions of New Brunswick, Quebec, Ontario, Algoma, Manitoba, Saskatchewan. Alberta and British Columbia?
13. What is the mileage of the C.P.R. in each division?
14.	What are main line boundaries of such divisions ?
15.	Is the C.N.R. system divided into operating uivisions, viz.: lines east and lines west with the dividing point at Fort William?
4U
16.	Are there any other divisions of the Canadian National Railways system for which accounts of operating expenses or revenues are kept? If so, what are they, and when were the same established?
17.	What were the total operating expenses of the C.P.R. per mile of line for the years 1917, 1920, and 1921 for the following divisions, viz.: British Columbia, Manitoba, Quebec, New Brunswick?
18.	What was the total cost of operation of C.P.R. as expressed in the cost per mile of line in the said 1917, 1920 and 1921 in the following of the said divisions: British Columbia, Quebec, New Brunswick?
19.	What was the total cost of operation of the
C.P.R. as expressed in the cost per car mile in the following of the said divisions, viz.: British Columbia, New Brunswick, Quebec?	.
20.	What was the cost of operation of the C.P.R. as expressed in the cost per mile of line in the said divisions of Alberta and British Columbia taken together, and in the said divisions of New Brunswick and Quebec taken together for the years 1917, 1920 and 1921?
21.	What was the density of traffic as shown in car miles per the mile of line, and in gross ton miles per mile of line, for the years 1917, 1920 and 1921, in the following of the said divisions: (a) British Columbia; (b) New Brunswick; New Brunswick and Quebec taken together; (c) Britsih Columbia and Alberta, taken together ?
22.	Is the C.P.R. Company divided into two main divisions for accounting purposes, viz.; lines east and lines west, and is the divisional point of the said system of railways Fort William, Ontario?
23.	What were the net revenues per mile of line, and per train mile produced by the C.P.R. Company on lines east, and lines west for the years 1916. 1917, 1918, 1919 and 1920?
24.	What were the net earnings of the C.P.R. per mile of line ,and per train mile for the years 1912 to 1916, both inclusive, in the following of the said divisions, viz.: New Brunswick or Atlantic, British Colum-* bia?


CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY
[Stage Direction]
Mr.. LUCAS:
1.	What is the total value of the assets of the Canadian Pacific Railway ?
2.	What is the total amount of issued capital stock of the Canadian Pacific Railway?
3. What is the bonded indebtedness of the said company ?
4. What are all the other obligations of the said company excepting current accounts?
5.	What are the total cash reserves of the said company as at the date of the 31st December, 1922, including loans of money made by the said company?
6.	Has the Canadian Pacific Railway any other reserves than cash? If so, what are they, and what is their total value?
7.	What is the value of the assets of the said railway created out of earnings or created from the receipts secured from the sale or other disposal of the company's assets?
8.	Did the Dominion government extend any assistance to any railway which was acquired subsequent to the granting of such assistance, by the C.P.R.?
9.	If so, what were the names of the railway or railways, and what was the extent of the assistance given in the following detail: (a) grant of land in acreage; (b) amount of money; (c) other assistance and its value?
10.	Did the provinces of Canada extend any assistance to the C.P.R.?
11.	If so, what was the nature and extent of the assistance divided as follows: (a) name of railway; (b) name of province; (c) the amount of land granted in acreage; (d) the amount of money; (e) the nature and extent and value of all other assistance; (f) bond guarantees ?
[Stage Direction]
Questions
[Stage Direction]
12.	Did any of the provinces of the Dominion extend any aid or assistance to the C.P.R. or to any company subsequently acquired by the C.P.R. ?
13.	If so, what was the nature and extent of the said assistance given them, in the following detail: (a) name of company; (b) name of province; (c) extent of land in acreage and in value; (d) rights the grant of. land contained; (e) amount of money; (f) the nature and extent of all other assistance; (g) bond guarantees amount?
Mr. KELLNER:: 1.	Was the C.P.R. between Kamloops and Port Moody constructed by the Dominion government and turned over to the C.P.R. without cost to the said company ?
2.	If not, what portion of the C.P.R. in British Columbia was constructed by the Dominion government?
3.	What was the actual cost of the C.P.R. lines built in British Columbia by the Dominion government. and turned over to the C.P.R.?
4.	Did the Dominion government build or pay for the construction of any portion of the C.P.R.? If so, what were the portions so constructed or paid for, and what was their value?
5.	What was the total value of the lines turned over to the C.P.R. either fully or partially constructed and paid for by the Dominion government?
6.	What was the total amount of cash given to the C.P.R. Company to aid the construction of the company's railway?
7.	What	was	the total	number of acres	of land
given to the C.P.R. to aid in the construction of the company's railway?
8.	What	are	the total	receipts received	by	the
C.P.R. Co. from the sale or disposal of said lands to date ?
9.	How	many	acres of	said lands remain	in	the
C.P.R. to-day. or its subsidiary companies, and what is the value thereof per acre and total?
10.	What	are	amounts	of dividends paid	by	theC.P.R.	Co. during	the	following years: 1914.	1915.
1916, 1917, 1918, 1919. 1920 and 1921 in per cents and annual totals ?



UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


[Stage Direction]
Hon. Mr. TOLMIE (for Mr. Clifford) ;
For	a copy of	nil	correspondence, reports	andmemoranda, relative to the claim of Orin Campbell against	the Department	of Railways and Canals, in
respect to his claim for damages arising out of the work at Nassau, near Peterborough.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. CALDWELL (For Mr. McConica).
For a copy of all letters, telegrams, other correspondence, and documents exchanged between the government, or any department thereof, and governments	or any of	the	departments thereof of	the
various provinces in Canada, relative to the appointment of a Wheat Board for the handling of the 1922 crop; also for a copy of all letters, telegrams, other correspondence or documents exchanged between the government or nny department thereof, and James Stewart, W. F. Ridell, or any other person or persons resident of Canada or elsewhere relative to their accepting a position upon such board; also all letters. telegrams, correspondence, or other documents received by the government, or any of the departments thereof from such persons respecting said board.

Hon. Mr. TOLMIE (for Hon. Mr. Stevens):: For a return of all correspondence, letters, telegrams, documents, reports, etc., between the Minister of Public Works or any official of his department, or any other minister or official of the government and the Minister of Public Works in the province of British Columbia, or any official, or other minister or official of the provincial government of British Columbia, regarding the problem of protection for Nieomen Island against high water flooding by the Fraser river.



RATES ON APPLES AND VEGETABLES

Mr. MARTELL:: For a return showing the freight and express rates charged on apples and vegetables shipped from Windsor, in the county of Hants, Nova Scotia, to the city of Montreal, Quebec, nnd the cities of Ottawa and Toronto, Ontario, together with a complete statement as to the reason for the fixing of said rates or charges, and including a copy of nil evidence upon which the same has been determined.
SYDENHAM HOSPITAL *
Mr. SHEAR!) (for Mr. Ross, Kingston):
For a copy of nil communications, papers nnd documents relating to the dismissal of certain medical officers employed by D.S.C.R. and the appointments to positions so vacated following the closing of Sydenham Hospital, Kingston.



EASTERN LAND COMPANY

Mr. FOURNIER (for Mr. Lapierre) :: For n copy of all letters, telegrams, correspondence and other documents exchanged between the government or any department thereof and The Eastern Land Company, of Capreol, Ontario, relative to the purchase of land adjoining the town of Capreol from the Canadian National Railways by said The Eastern Land Company.



PURE BRED CATTLE-ACCREDITED HERDS

Mr. CALDWELL:: For a return showing all accredited herds of purebred cattle, and all herds under process of accreditation, by provinces, giving the names of owneis of those fully accredited, and also names of owners of herds under accreditation.



CREDIT AND INDUSTRY

[Stage Direction]
Mr. WILLIAM IRVINE (Calgary East) moved;
That, in the opinion of this House, a representative parliamentary committee should be appointed to investigate the basis, the function and the control of financial credit, and the relation of credit to the industrial problems.
He said: Mr. Speaker, this resolution asks for an investigation into the basis and function of credit, either by a parliamentary committee or by some other committee which parliament might see fit to appoint. The resolution calls for a parliamentary committee, but the main point before us is the consideration of the advisability of getting the information on the basis and function of credit and the relation

Credit and Industry
of credit to industry. It is my duty, then, to show the necessity for such information. Hon. members of the House will recall that last year on two occasions I laid the basis for this resolution,-in the debate in reply to the Speech from the Throne, and in the debate on the budget. I set forth what credit was; how it was controlled; its indispensability to modem society; how inflation and deflation is controlled by the banks; that the present industrial paralysis is due largely to a lack of purchasing power; that the development of our home market should be sought by increasing the purchasing power of the country. I showed further the relation of credit control to war, and indicated the danger of collapse of the present financial system; and also gave an analysis of substitute proposals by a number of students of finance.
I was rather interested, Mr. Speaker, last year, to observe the effect which my discussion of this question produced on some hon. members of the House, and particularly was I interested in the remarks which it called forth from the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Maclean). I notice that the hon. gentleman is not in his seat at the moment, but on that occasion the discussion tempted him into an unusual outburst of humour. Either he did not think the subject as I presented it was worthy of serious consideration or he was not in a position to answer the argument. Be that as it may, he replied by indulging in sarcasm at my expense. He even went so far as to be willing to break the bonds of the Empire, to place upon my head a golden crown, if I could instruct people of Canada how to pay the national debt, or how to get rid of interest, and so forth. Now I notice by -a report in the daily press that the hon. member for Halifax is slated as the next Minister of Finance for this Dominion. If that is true I venture to say that this House and the people of Canada will require a better answer to the question of finance and credit from the hon. gentleman than the sarcasm which he gave to the House last year. I trust that to-day he will take the opportunity to go into the matter in greater detail and with more seriousness than he bestowed upon it on that occasion.
I want to point out that the contention of last year has been substantiated by financiers of world repute. I would mention first Col. Armstrong. In referring to the Cunliff committee that was appointed by the British government to make recommendations as to industry and finance shortly after the war, he points out:
It is now generally agreed that the policy of deflation which the government adopted in accordance with the
*10 j
recommendations of the Cunliff committee'has proceeded too far and produced results which were not anticipated at the time it was Instituted.
In that connection also I would refer the House to the utterances of Lord Milner, who happens to be himself a bank director in England. He refers to this question more from the point of view of labour, and goes on to show how labouring people were induced to increase production after the war. Their wages were cut -and deflation in finance was brought about, with the result that the storehouses of the nation were filled with goods. The people had no money with which to purchase these goods, and the inevitable results followed-unemployment. But more than that-Lord Milner says:
Labour is more and more inclined to question the competence of the bigwigs of industry and finance. There is a loss of confidence in the management.
Continuing he says:
For months and months after the close of the war he-the labour man-had it dinned into his ears that the world was suffering from a shortage of goods, and he was overwhelmed with exhortations to him and the men of his class not to spare themselves, but to work with intensified energy to make up the deficiency. That, he was vehemently assured, was their duty to their country and the world, and at the same time the one sure road to the improvement of their own condition. Such was the unanimous appeal made to him by all the highest authorities in the world of industry and finance. And he obeyed it to the best of his ability, but only to find, a year or two later, that the ware houses of his employers were choked with goods which they could not sell, and that his services were no longer required. And then, when, stung by disappointment, he began to probe for himself into the causes of this strange contradiction, he was told that there had unfortunately been a mistake, that the activity to which he had been so fervently exhorted to contribute was "feverish", that he ought to have known, we ought all to have known, that after the war there was bound to be a big slump, because "the pool of capital had been depleted" and w'e had no money for making things and nobody else had any money for buying them.
It would therefore seem that my contentions of last year were not matters for humour as the hon. member for Halifax seemed to think. Rather, these matters, have been taken very seriously indeed by some of the foremost financiers of the world. If generations of pyramiding debts and the control of credit by a select few financiers, with its inevitable under consumption and unemployment be made matters for mirth, then all I have to say is that some hon. members have a rather peculiar idea of what constitutes humour. Is the present situation as referred to by Lord Milner-and it is obvious in Canada, and, indeed, all over the world- is the present situation the best that the present financiers and their advocates, can give us. If so, I submit that these ad-
Credit and Industry
[Stage Direction]
vocates ought to be willing to listen, to other people, however ignorant they may seem to be.
What, let us ask first, are the industrial conditions in Canada at the present time? In this regard I would refer in the first place, to the evidence that has been given in this House by the representatives of agriculture in the Dominion. Nobody will deny that their speeches have reflected the protest of the agricultural population against an industrial situation which is becoming intolerable. In this connection I would quote a very short extract from Dr. Henrik Shipstead, a senator from Minnesota who says:
The farmers of Minnesota left thousands of acres of potatoes in the fields to rot-thousands upon thousands of acres, and the country needing cheap food. They could not afford to dig them for there was no market for them-think of that, no market for them!
That is the situation in Canada to a large extent. There is no market for wheat-prices are low; there is no market for cattle-prices are below the margin where it is possible to raise cattle economically. So from the point of view of agriculture, the industrial situation in Canada is indeed very serious.
I would also refer to the business depression which set in shortly after the close of the war, and which still persists. It stands to reason that business must be depressed when there is no market for the farmers' produce and no employment for the working people; under such conditions business must of necessity be depressed. In this connection it is well to refer to the depletion of our population which is going on because of the economic conditions in agriculture, in industry and in business, and I could not do better than quote a short passage from an article from the pen of Mr. John A. Stevenson in MacLean's magazine. The heading of this article is: "Is Canada an Immigration Sieve?" I quote from it briefly:
From the Maritime provinces fifty families per week are said to be moving to the New England states, and at the other end of the country Col. W. B. Forster, of Vancouver, declares that the province has lost 177,000 people by emigration in the last decade, although the Vancouver Province challenges his figures.
But, perhaps the most deadly evidence of all comes from the customs returns, which show that in the year ending December 31, whereas the value of imports under the head of "settlers effects'' total $6,195,569, the parallel exports reached $7,832,052. This clear loss on the balance is a most disconcerting novelty.
But little further proof of the existence of a steady exodus is needed beyond the latest census figures. In 1911, the population was officially estimated at 7,206,463. In the succeeding decade, 1,975,000 people entered our gates, and the natural increment should normally have been 1,800,000. Making the fullest allowance for losses of the war, the census of 1921, if Canada had retained all her native-born increment and her immigrants, should
(Mr. Irvine.]	<§j
have reached a total of 10,500,000. But the actual figures, as given by the Bureau of Statistics, are 8,769,489.
So, it will be seen that the economic conditions which have been brought to the attention of this House by hon. members representing the agricultural industry, and also the statistics with regard to the exodus from Canada of our people, prove that our economic conditions are very serious.
Next, I would refer to unemployment, which is still a grave problem in Canada. To make that point clear, I will quote from a telegram just received:
I am acting on behalf of the unemployed of Halifax. There are fifteen hundred of them. This situation has been with us for the past two years. I have wired Prime Minister and Minister of Labour on the subject urging the government to open up public works or give a greater measure of relief on account of a long period. The situation is acute.
I have in my hand a copy of a resolution sent from Sydney Mines to the Prime Minister with regard to the same situation, stating that "two hundred and upwards have been out of employment and are now suffering on account of said unemployment." I mention those just because they are fresh in this morning. The situation throughout all Canada is similar, and I would refer hon. members to the statement which was given by the leader of the Labour party (Mr. Woodsworth) in this House on a previous occasion with regard to the unemployment situation.
These industrial conditions are not, as many people contend, caused by the war. Let me give the evidence in support of this contention. In the first place, we had similar conditions in 1914. We had similar unemployment, similar business depression, arising out of the same economic conditions, which are producing the industrial paralysis from which we are at present suffering. War could not have caused that-the war had not yet begun. Again, we are better equipped at this time for production, and increased production if required, than we were prior to the war. I pointed that out at some length in the debate on this question last session. I showed that during the war we had increased our productive facilities; that we had brought home our men from the front, thus having more people to work, and so forth. I showed that we were in a better position for production after the war than we were before. In view of this, there cannot be any claim that we ought to suffer for lack of goods. Moreover, it must be said that if the stock of consumable goods has been depleted in Canada owing to war activities-and let me add that that is the only sane reason why anybody in Canada should be lacking for anything of necessity-

Credit and Industry
would it not be natural that every man and woman in this country who can work, would be working overtime to make up the shortage? On the contrary, not only are we not working to make up the shortage, we are feeding our people by a dole system, municipal or provincial or Dominion doles as the case may be and keeping them in idleness. When that is the situation, who will argue that Canada is in need of producing more goods? No, the problem of production has been solved. What we are sticking at is distribution of the goods. When you stop distributing, naturally you block up the whole industrial machine and it stops. What we want is not more production; we can produce more very speedily. What we want is more distribution; and that leads us, as I shall show later, to a consideration of the purchasing power of the people.
But let me come to the next point. If there was a shortage, which there is not, that shortage could not be explained by saying that we lack raw material, for obviously, Canada, with her boasted natural resources, can supply us with all the raw material required for production. The present situation has not arisen through a lack of plant equipment, as I have demonstrated; it has not arisen through a lack of willing workers, for they are walking the streets now looking for work. It has arisen because of the shortage of a real demand owing to a lack of purchasing power. Let me illustrate this. In the city of Calgary we require a new post office, not a political post office, but a real post office. Political parties have, for some time, as an election talk, been promising to build a post office at Calgary. But let us leave this aside and point to the fact that we have the spot of ground on which we want to set the post office. We have in Calgary, or can secure, the material out of which the post office would have to be built. We have in Calgary the labour, walking the streets, doing nothing, looking for an opportunity to build the post office. We are renting from private institutions offices for public purposes to the extent of $50,000 yearly. We, therefore, need the post office; but although we have the place upon which the post office would rest very solidly, the material out of which to build it, the men doing nothing that want to go to work at building it, and the need which would save us $50,000 a year in rent alone, we cannot build the post office because, it is said: "We have no money." Let me give you a parallel illustration. I will take you out to a river bank and I will show you a tribe of Indians sitting on the river bank disconsolate and distressed. I approach them and I ask the chief: "What is the matter?"
"Oh," he says, "We cannot fish and we cannot hunt because we have no money." I say: "Man, you have lots of fishing tackle, and I see there are fish in the stream. You have lots of guns and ammunition, and I see there is plenty of game in the bush. Why do you not fish and hunt?" "Oh, yes," says the chief, with tears in his eyes; we have lots of fishing material and there are lots of fish; we have lots of ammunition and there is plenty of game; but, you know, we cannot fish and we cannot hunt because we have no money." We would promptly send that whole tribe to the asylum; but when we are sending that tribe to the asylum, let us all go along with them, because we are doing precisely the same thing in Canada as that hypothetical tribe of Indians would be doing by taking such a stupid attitude as that.
The present industrial situation, as I have briefly outlined it, marks the bankruptcy of statesmanship in Canada. With our natural resources tremendous in extent, with the need on the part of the people for goods, with the men walking the streets seeking work-we cannot give them, I say that situation is indeed ridiculous. In support of the contention that this condition is brought about through lack of purchasing power, let me quote a few brief extracts from others that may be taken as greater authorities than myself. Let me quote first from an article in the Manchester Guardian. This article has the significant heading, "A Year of Disastrous Plenty." Note that heading. The article says:
As we sing our psalms of thanksgiving for o.ie of the most bountiful fruit harvests within memory, that the great part of the harvest is rotting beneath the trees that bore it, and we add to our thanks a prayer for economic enlightenment:
It concludes " The fruit trade has met its Waterloo."
Here is. another short extract from the Bulletin of the International City Bank of New York:
It is however a familiar fact that the chief cause of depression during the past year was the unbalanced state of industry, great numbers of would-be customers being unable to buy freely because their own product did not give them the required purchasing power over other products held at a higher level of values.
To conclude the quotations on this point, I will refer to Mr. Babson on purchasing power. He says:
The purchasing power of the people is ultimately determined by the total payroll of the nation. No matter what one's attitude is on the matters of labour and capital, in the final analjrsis it must be realized that the spending power, the purchasing power of a nation, of a community, is merely the sum total of the payroll of that nation or community.
For this reason then, that the deflation practised in Canada and in all countries has
[Stage Direction]
Credit and Industry
resulted in unemployment through the curtailing of the purchasing power of the people, I urge that the investigation of this matter should be taken up by a committee of this parliament to see how this condition has been brought about. Under this heading let me further point out that we are recognizing that we cannot sell our goods when we send hon. ministers to foreign countries to look for markets. If we could sell our own goods here, we would not need to go to the expense of hunting for markets. I very much regret to say that in my opinion the expenditure of the hunt will exceed the products of the chase. But let me ask. Did the beaming smiles of our hon. ministers increase the , purchasing power of those countries 4 p.m. whom they were soliciting for trade?
I do not see the connection. I scarcely imagine that they did, by their smiles, increase the purchasing power of France or of Australia. Indeed they may have discovered that the purchasing power of those countries was limited, just as is the purchasing power of Canada, and that they could not, merely by passing a resolution, increase the purchasing power of the people of other countries. But unless they can increase the purchasing power of people of other countries we cannot get a foreign market. These people are not buying from us now because they cannot. Will any arranging of treaties increase their purchasing power? Let me rather turn to the apostles of the full dinner pail and of home markets that sit to the left of the Speaker, these gentlemen who have fought many elections on the ground that we should increase our own home markets and build it up. True, they advocated building it up-on the rotten foundation of an old tariff policy; will they not assist my endeavour to obtain a home market on the principles I am enunciating? Here is the opportunity, by developing a credit system that will increase the purchasing power of our people, and start industries, and keep our people busy, so that afterwards, if we have unemployment, it will not be forced unemployment, but will be because we have actually produced more than we can possibly consume. That would be a very excellent condition and much more healthy, economically considered, than the unemployment at the present time. I want, therefore, an investigation that will reveal why there is a lack of financial credit in Canada at the present time. That is a reasonable and modest request. If it can be shown there are sound reasons for the prevailing shortage in financial credit, then I and other members of the House will be content. Let us hold the investigation tMr. Irvine.]
and have the proof. Nothing short of the proof will satisfy us.
My next point is that Canada has to borrow money. We borrowed hundreds of millions last year. I do not know how much we shall have to borrow this year, but I know that the Dominion government alone has to pay an annual interest on our borrowings of $138,223,000. Now, we have some advocates of economy. Here is an excellent place to practise economy. Can we save the interest on $138,000,000 to the people of Canada? That would certainly be a worthy accomplishment and would be good economy. Have we the chance of practising economy in this way? We borrow a great deal of our money from the United States. In the process of borrowing we have to pay brokers high rates for handling our business. We have to pay high rates of interest to somebody for permitting us to use our own credit-it is a well-known fact that we cannot borrow from anybody unless we already have a basis of borrowing. If you go to a bank to borrow money, the banker will ask you what you have got, and when you have demonstrated that you have assets equal and more than equal to what you want to borrow, he will consider your loan; in other words, you can only borrow from the banker what you already have. If we go to the United States and tell them that we are bankrupt as a nation, that we have no natural resources, no industries, and that we are all dying, how much would we be able to borrow? Nothing. We can only borrow from the United States because we already have the credit which merits the loan which we solicit. If that be true, I want to know why Canada cannot use her own credit. Why should we have to go to Wall street to get permission to use what we already have? Is the credit of Canada which is good enough for the Wall street banker not good enough for the Canadian manufacturer or the Canadian banker? Is it not good enough for the Canadian farmers? On this ground also then, I want an investigation to show how it is that we are forced to go into a foreign country to borrow money, why we cannot use our own credit and escape the burden of interest, and at the same time increase the people's purchasing power and start all the industries of Canada?
Next, I want to show that credit is a social asset, and, being social in character, and of supreme importance to the life of the nation, it must not be allowed to be controlled by any clique, no matter how wise or efficient its members may be. I do not need to tell the House that one of the chief factors of any nation's credit is its consumers, for the con-

Credit and Industry
sumer starts the plough, sinks the shaft, opens the factory and gives acceleration to business; indeed the consumer's demand is back of all industrial enterprise. If there were no consumers, there would be no farmers growing wheat, if there were no bare feet in Canada there would be no boot manufacturers; these industries exist for the purpose of satisfying human needs or the needs of the consumer. If a boot manufacturer went to borrow' money the chances are that he could easily obtain it, the market being good. But if he should try to establish a factory to produce a commodity which no one ever heard about, and the uses of which people were not aware of, it is not very likely that he would succeed in raising a loan.
Mr. MACLEAN (Halifax); I have been listening carefully to my hon. friend although I hardly expect to take part in the discussion.
I should like to know, however, on what -system he is basing his argument. Is he advocating state socialism, or guild socialism, or is it the doctrine he propounded last year and which I believe he referred to in his opening remarks? It would be very interesting to know to which port my hon. friend is drifting.
Mr. IRVINE:: I know m'y hon. friend from
Halifax is anxious to draw a herring across the trail of my speech,-


Mr. MACLEAN (Halifax):: Oh, no, I beg your pardon.


William Irvine: -but I would refuse to follow it even if it were a whale instead of a herring. I am not trying to advocate any particular school of finance, nor am I advocating any mode of socialism whatsoever. I am merely asking for an investigation into the credit system of the country.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: But my hon.
friend has been clearly arguing for some system of financial credit, and the only system I know of comparable to that which he is endeavouring to set up is the Douglas system, so-called. I simply want my hon. friend to be good enough to say whether that is what he has in mind, or vdiether he intends to develop some financial credit system under what is known as state socialism, or guild socialism, or something of that nature. It would help a lot if we know what he was aiming at.


William Irvine: I concede that it would
help if I could tag myself on to some socialistic scheme and by so doing immediately raise the ire pf the whole House. I am not going to propound any socialistic theory of credit control. I am asking, however, that this
committee which the resolution calls for shall state what it thinks ought to be done. If I knew now what should be done I would not be making this speech, but would rather be trying to educate the hon. gentleman up to my system. Now, the Douglas system to which the hon. member refers is one scheme out of many; and I am sorry that he has not heard of some of the others. I could mention half a dozen others that have been propounded by as able men as Major Douglas. If the committee for which I ask find weaknesses in the present system let them submit to the House all the information they can possibly get. That is all I want; and I think that if the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Maclean) will have a little more patience he will perceive my main contention. I am not advocating any one particular school of financial thought; what I insist upon is that we investigate the subject. My speech of last year with regard to this matter merely indicated that new proposals were being thought of; and to say that I advocated that any one of them should be adopted in toto would be to misrepresent me entirely, and to misunderstand my motives. If the hon. member will look up Hansard he will see that I analyzed these proposals merely to show that there were people who were thinking about them, and that we were not hopelessly left to die in the state in which we found ourselves.
When I was interrupted, I was dealing with the point that credit is a social asset, that the consumer is one -of the main factors of a nation, and that, every person being a consumer, credit was necessarily of a social character. If that is so then it is surely a dangerous thing to permit a few monopolists to control social credit. Credit is the lifeblood of industry; and we want an investigation to show who are the individuals that control the flow of the lifeblood of Canadian industry, and to find out if there be any possible way by which society can control the system. If there be then we must ascertain what is necessary to be done. And this investigation would serve to throw light upon this question.
My next point is that those who control the finances of any country control the government and, as well, the policy of industry. It must be clear to any hon. member who gives the matter a moment's consideration that a government that must borrow $100,000,000 or $200,000,000 or more from financiers cannot be absolutely independent of those financiers. When a government has already given them carte blanche with regard to the credit of the country, and given them a ten-year right to the use of it, then that government must come cap in hand to those financiers, the
Credit and Industry

government already having given away its own power. In support of this contention, which I cannot take the time to develop as fully as I should like, let me point to the situation in Alberta at the present time. We have in that province a Farmers' government, so-called, and we have had ap investigation by a royal commission into the banking conditions there. Simply because of that circumstance, we find that the financiers are taking a very hostile attitude. In a recent issue of the Calgary Daily Herald you will find a very interesting editorial on this point. The Herald declares that the Alberta government and the critics of finance in that province had better be careful because the financiers might take umbrage, and that if they did they could, if they so choose, shut oS the credit of the whole province. Now, that is proof, at least to some extent, that financiers may, and very likely do, control governments. It must be just as evident that he who controls finance controls the policy of industry. He who has the right to say whether a loan shall or shall not be secured, says, in very many instances, what sort of industry shall be established, and what sort shall not be allowed. Let me cite an illustration, the supposed case of a farmer and a moving picture showman going to a banker each soliciting the loan of, say, $1,000. In reply to the question concerning his assets, the farmer tells the banker that he has a mortgage on his farm already, in fact, two or three; that his wheat crop has been a failure; that he finds himself with a large quantity of stock, for which there is no market and for which he has no feed. However, if he could borrow $1,000 and secure feed to keep his cattle over the winter he might possibly come out all right the next year. That is his story. Then the banker turns to the other man and asks for his story. This man says he is going to establish a picture show in the town. He has rented such-and-such a building and wants to install the necessary machinery. He requires enough money to pay his help for the first month perhaps; and as regards the question of assets, he says he has a fine line of films which have been popular everywhere else and which he knows the people of this town will like. His patrons are in the community and he knows that they will come to see his pictures. He will make so much per night or per week and, he can give a reasonable promise that in a given time the money will be paid back. Well, the banker has nothing to do but to choose in favour of the picture showman. The banker is handling money that must make more money and he cannot lend to the farmer because he has no assurance that the

cattle market will improve or that the farmer will be able to pay back the amount lent him. And so the banker, without designing it, decides that instead of building up a cattle industry we shall build up a picture show business. I am not speaking against the picture show business; it is all right-but we shall not live very long on picture shows. We must first of all establish the basic industries that supply the necessities of life, and whatever is in the nature of a luxury can come later. From that illustration it will be seen that the man who controls the finance of a country controls also the policy of its industry. I therefore urge an inquiry into credit control. I want an investigation to see how it is that banks do control credit, and to see why we should continue to give carte blanche to a number of gentlemen to do what they please with Canada's credit.
Next let me show briefly that money is not performing its proper function in society. Normally the function that it should perform industrially would be analogous to that which the blood performs in its circulation through our bodies. The discovery of the circulation of the blood was of great moment to a proper understanding of the control of our bodily health. The discovery of the circulation of money as the life blood of industry to-day is a discovery of equally great importance to economics. One of the symptoms of a defective circulation of the blood in the body is cold feet, and I think perhaps we are suffering from that trouble to some extent to-day. Cold feet is something like greatness: Some are born with cold feet, some acquire cold feet, and some have cold feet thrust upon them. I do not know whether the present administration has been born with cold feet, or has acquired them, or has had cold feet thrust upon it. Nor do I know whether our present industrial monopolists have been born with that affliction or whether the financial situation has developed it in them, but the fact is that they have cold feet to-day. We need an investigation, then, to find out how it is that the circulation of finance is being arrested.
What is Canada suffering from at the present time? Is it fatty degeneration of the heart, or is it arterio-sclerosis that is impeding the circulation of finance? Whatever the disease, it is gnawing at the vitals of Canada, and this arrested circulation is making serious inroads upon the economic fife of the nation. Therefore, if we are to effect a cure we must have the necessary information on which to act.
Perhaps I can illustrate this from another point of view. The lack of purchasing power

Credit and Industry
is somewhat akin to the lack of electric power in a street railway system. Purchasing power makes the wheels go round in the industrial system, just as the electric current makes the wheels turn in a street car system. For want of the necessary electric power the most skilled workmen provided with the very best equipment are powerless to function. We have no shortage of plant or equipment in our industrial system, for during the war years great factories were equipped with the most modern machinery. Neither is there any lack of skilled operators, as I have already shown. But our industrial plants are standing idle and our operatives are unemployed periodically because something called "contraction of credit" cuts off the supply of currency. Now, surely the community should do something more than wTait around at street comers and starve during these interruptions until the "current" comes on again. What is the matter with our industrial system that it is not running? Has something happened to the machinery? Is there power enough? What is the matter? We want an investigation in order that we may find out where the trouble lies.
Now, in connection with the function of money, in our economic system, let me quote Delmar. He says:
When the principles that underlie it are thoroughly understood, money is perhaps the mightiest engine to which man can lend an intelligent guidance. Unheard, unfelt, unseen, it has the power so to distribute the burdens, gratifications and opportunities of life that each individual shall enjoy that share of them to which his merits or good fortune may entitle him or contrariwise to dispense them with bo partial a hand as to violate every principle of justice and perpetuate a succession uf social slaveries to the end of time.
What, then, is this thing that has so much power? Why was it invented? What function did it originally perform? Why and how did banks arise and get control? Let me go back for a minute or two to the origin of money. We find early society doing its trading in commodities-they exchanged real goods for real goods. But by and by, as social integration went on, this was found too cumbersome a method. For instance, supposing one of the hon. members of the Farmer party in this House wanted to go to New York for a trip, and his only wealth consisted of cattle. We will suppose he has a lot of steers, but there is no market for them, so he takes them down to New York, paying the freight charges with a certain number of them, also his railway fare and his hotel expenses. When he wants to go to a picture show he slices off a hind quarter and passes it through the ticket wicket. Such would be the cumbersome process if there was no money in use; in a word, it would be impossible under present day conditions, to do any trading without a medium of exchange. It is easily conceivable how necessary it was for our early ancestors to invent some means to facilitate business. They invented money. Sometimes it was made out of little pieces of wood, at other times of leather, skins, iron, brass, copper, until finally it reached its present form-paper. Anything will do for money as long as we give it legal sanction. But the point is that money is a shadow of the reality; that is, its real meaning and its function is to facilitate business, because, as I have pointed out, it is easier to take the shadow of a carload of steers to New York than the steers themselves.
But how did the shadow become a reality? It is easy for us to see how subsequent generations would lose the meaning of the function of money, and they would discover that whoever possessed money could do whatever he wanted. If he needed potatoes he could buy them with money, and would not need to raise them, and so on with other commodities. So, gradually people began to acquire money for the power it gave them; they began to hoard it; and eventually to guard against robbers it was found necessary to have strongboxes in which to keep their money and to appoint keepers to guard their boxes. By and by those strong-box keepers began to develop a notion of becoming bankers. One morning when one of these keepers was guarding a strong-box a sad looking farmer came along, and on being asked why he looked so downcast he exclaimed that he had his land all ready for crops but was without money to buy the necessary seed. Immediately the strong-box keeper, the embryo banker, conceived the brilliant idea of lending some of the money confided to his keeping to the farmer, who could pay him back the .principal with interest in the fall when he had harvested his crops. But then he was assailed by the doubt: Supposing I lend Jones' money to this farmer and Jones wants it in the meantime, what shall I do? He soon settled this difficulty by recollecting that he could satisfy Jones by paying him out of Smith's money. So he took the chance, made the loan to the farmer, and everything worked out so well that after a time instead of continuing as a strong-box keeper and paid for his sendees as such, he made an offer to pay hoarders interest on any money they would deposit with him. And lo and behold! all the old socks were turned inside out, the hoarders of money flocked to him, and he very soon was in control of 'the whole financial situation. That is how the bankers got their power.

Credit and Industry
That is what banks came for: first of all to guard money, and then later to control it. It is the function of money, as I have pointed out, to facilitate trade, and as I have shown money is the shadow of the reality.
I understand that the Bank Act will come up for revision this session. Once that is done, ten years more will elapse before we shall be in a position to discuss this financial question with any hope of having alterations made. It is very important, therefore, that we should get more information. Indeed, I doubt whether anyone in this House outside of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) himself and the late Minister of Finance (Sir Henry Drayton) really understands the present system of finance. Last year some hon. members objected to the new proposals of Major Douglas then put forward on the ground that they did not understand them; but those hoq. gentlemen do not understand the system that is in vogue now. I say we do not understand it, but we are going to revise and confirm an act that passes all financial and credit power into the hands of a few men for ten years. I submit that in view of the complex nature of this subject it is imperatively necessary that we should have more information in regard to it before we are called upon to vote on the Bank Act. If we do not, what will happen? The experts of the banks on the committee dealing with the bill will tell us what kind of bill they want, and we shall not be in a position to challenge them; their information will be expert information and the result will be that we shall have a banking act for bankers instead of a banldng act that will secure a free flow of the life blood of industry through Canada for the next ten years. For this, another reason, Mr. Speaker, I urge the necessity of an investigation into the subject matter of the resolution.
Moreover, the banking system, the finance system, of the world is in real danger of collapse. We have continued to pyramid our debts, and the pyramid has been inverted; it is standing on its apex, and we are building out and out to such an extent that if we keep on the whole thing will ultimately collapse around us. To change the illustration, let us imagine that a snake starts to eat its own tail. It keeps on eating and eating and by and by it comes to the back of its neck and can go no further. The financial system of the world is just about in that position now. One of the expert students of this subject whom I interviewed in London last summer told me that the system could not possibly go on longer than 1925, and he based his prophecy on the ratio of average overhead charges in

the great staple industries to the direct labour charges involved in connection with those industries. So there is a danger to civilization in this connection. If hon. members of this House found it necessary to put up at a hotel that was not fireproof, they would be pardoned for looking around for the fire escape. There is, I say, this possibility of catastrophe in the present world situation, and I want to know where the fire escape is. I want to know what this government will do in the event of the financial system of the world collapsing through the present invasion of the Ruhr by France. Indeed, that is a danger that the Prime Minister of England feared when he dissociated himself from the action of the Premier of France; that is what is feared by all students of finance. What will our government do in that event? Shall we not have an investigation into this matter so that we may know what course to pursue in the case of a collapse taking place?
We need a fundamental change in our banking system. When our Bank Act comes up for revision I shall not be interested in crossing its t's and dotting its i's, I do not think we can get much improvement from that. Indeed, the present Bank Act is a good act; it has been said that it is a good measure-for the bankers. It is one of the best acts in North America, or in the civilized world for that matter, for the bankers; and we might make it a little better for them by tinkering with it-I am not sure. At any rate, that is all I expect out of the procedure involved in a revision of the present act. Shall we not now take a new step; is there a chance of a fundamental change which will give us greater circulation of currency, which will stir up our industries, increase our home markets, solve the problem of distribution, prevent the paying of huge sums of interest?
There is a demand among the people for such information as this resolution seeks to obtain. Even the Liberal Association of Vancouver passed a fairly strong resolution demanding certain investigations and asking for changes in conection with the banking system of this country. The organized farmers and the organized labour people of this country have made similar demands. For the reasons I have given, therefore, I urge the adoption of this resolution in order that we may get the information that is so badly needed and that is so necessary before we can deal properly with any present or proposed banking legislation.
Mr. HENRY E. SPENCER (Battle River): Mr. Speaker, in rising to speak to this resolu-

Credit and Industry
tion, I wish to say that it deals with one of the most important subjects that has come before this House. The hon. member for Calgary East (Mr. Irvine) has stated the amount of interest that this country has to pay annually,-$138,223,000. It is interesting to note how our forefathers tried for many generations to get away from this tax. I might mention that King Alfred, about the year 900 A.D., forfeited goods of moneylenders, for usury. Edward the Confessor banished them from England. Henry II claimed usurers' property at death. Richard I and John punished them. Edward III made it a capital crime. Henry VIII allowed money to be loaned, and Elizabeth allowed a modified interest to be charged. For generations there was an effort to get away from the charge which to-day is piling up debts the world over. Efforts have been made from time to time to issue credit without this charge being attached to it. I am going to direct attention to two cases, one of which was referred to last year in a speech delivered by the member for Calgary East (Mr. Irvine) which will be found on page 2505 of Hansard. "Market- House Notes" were issued on the authority of Governor de L'Isle Brock of Guernsey, on the credit of the community, and no interest was charged. In the other case, in 1862, the American people had gone through a very expensive war and they needed a great . deal of money to pay their soldiers and sailors, and to purchase foodstuffs. It was decided, therefore, to issue what were known as greenbacks, and practically $450,000,000 were issued. In case hon. members of the House are not fully aware of the nature of the greenback, I wish to recite what one is. I quote from a former Secretary of the United States Treasury, Mr. Salmon P. Chase, who says:
What is a greenback? Did you ever think what it was? Why it is simply the credit of this great American people put into the form of money to circulate among the very people whose credit makes it good. When I was secretary' of the treasury, the question arose, how should these vast armies and navies be supplied, how should the boys be fed in the field, the sailors in ships, and provision made for their support and clothing, food and transportation? I found the banks of the country had suspended specie payment. What was I to do? The banks wanted me to borrow their credit. They did not pay me gold or propose to pay any themselves, but they wanted me to borrow their notes. I said "No, gentlemen, this great American people is worth all of you put together. I will take the credit of the people and cut it up in the form of little bits of paper and we will circulate that paper." This is the true idea of the greenback. It is the credit and property of the American people.
I do not wish the House to think for a minute that I am advocating the use of paper money without taking care of price regulation.
We have always to guard against the unnatural inflation, but it is worthy of note that the great American people after going through their severe struggle saw fit to make use of their own credit without charge. In our own case we did not do anything of the sort. After our great struggle we saw fit to borrow money on which we shall be paying a tax for generations to come to those who have loaned us the money, which we borrowed on our own credit.
Referring further to the issue of paper money in the United States, it was only natural that those who made their living by making loans or giving credit to individuals or the nation should fight such an innovation as this, and they kept up a running fight along the following lines. In 1877 a circular was issued by the authority of the Associated Bank of New York, Philadelphia and Boston, signed by one James Buell, Secretary, who issued it from 247 Broadway. I am quoting now from information given by Senator C. A. Lindbergh of the United States. This circular was sent to the Bankers in all the States and read:
Dear Sir,-It is advisable to do all in your power to sustain such prominent daily and weekly newspapers, especially the agricultural and religious press, as will oppose the greenback issue of paper money, and that you also withhold patronage from all applicants who are not willing to oppose the government issue of money. Let government issue the coin and the banks issue the paper money of the country, then we can better protect each other. To repeal the Act creating bank notes, or to restore to (circulation the government issue of money, will be to provide the people with money, and will therefore, seriously affect our individual profits as bankers and lenders. See your Congressman at once and engage him to support our interests that we may control legislation.
That, I must admit, is rather an interesting letter to obtain, and I think it is of particular interest at this time because we shall no doubt find that those who have the privilege of the control of credit in this country will, as efforts are made to take away that privilege, put forward similar propaganda.
One hardly realizes the power of what is known as interest. It is hard to believe that one dollar, at ten per cent compound interest will amount in a hundred years to the huge sum of $13,809.
During last session the hon. Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) came down to this House and informed the members that he had [DOT] been fortunate in floating a loan in New York to the amount of $100,000,000, at five per cent, for thirty years, and most of the hon. members applauded that statement. They applauded, I suppose, because they realized that Canada's name was so good that they were able to raise that loan in another country, but how

Credit and Industry
many members realized that when the people of Canada meet that note, when it comes due in thirty years' time, they will have to pay back not only the $100,000,000, but the sum of $150,000,000 besides on account of interest. Study for a moment what this means in certain parts of Canada where high interest rates are being charged; I refer particularly to the western provinces. Interest is high there, and I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that when you consider the short term for which the loans are issued and the high rate of interest that is charged and compounded, the interest rate will easily equal ten per cent. Imagine, therefore, that for every hundred million dollars that are borrowed by the farmers of western Canada-on their own credit, mind you-when they come to pay that back in thirty years' time-if the renewal loan runs that long-they will pay no less a sum than $400,000,000. These figures, I think, are staggering.
As time has gone on, those who have controlled the money system of the country have gradually strengthened their hold, have organized themselves stronger and stronger until to-day we find that only a few men control the destinies of this country through finance. Going back just as far as 1904 I find that we had then thirty-four banks with some 1,100 branches, and in 1920 these banks had been reduced to eighteen with nearly 5,000 branches, and now as you well know, the number of banks is down to seventeen. One weakness in our present system appears to be that the banks are trying to carry on the business of this country on too little paid-up capital. In 1904 I notice that the relation of paid-up capital to assets equalled 11 per cent, but sixteen years afterwards it was only four per cent. It appears to me that the banks are trying to handle the country's business on too small a capital.
Credit when all is said and done is a community thing, but under the control we have at the present time, the credit of the country is entirely at the mercy of seventeen institutions. I would like to quote from a statement made by a banker of twenty years' standing. The figures are rather staggering. A layman, when he first comes across this, can hardly believe it is true. He says:
Banks are quasi-public institutions. The public must use them as thej' constitute a monopoly. These joint stock companies have invested of their own money [DOT] $129,000,000 and have accumulated from profits $135,000,000. Therefore, they have $264,000,000 of their own money in the business. This amount would not equal loans outside of Canada, which on June 30, 1921, were $321,000,000. Total assets on the same date were $2,879,000,000. All but $264,000,000 was the people's money. In other words the public has ten times as much interest in the banking business of our country as 
the shareholders of the banks and all the money is being controlled by eighteen groups of men. Over half of it is controlled by four groups. Two-thirds is controlled by seven banks. Seven men actually control over seventy per cent of the savings of nearly nine million people by the operation of seven machines, which gather their savings from towns, villages and hamlets, consolidating them in seven depositories, and then the seven men have the power to place this huge sum wherever it may suit them. '
I would like to quote a few words by Sir Edmund Walker, who, in speaking to the shareholders of the Bank of Commerce, on January 13, 1920, said:
We cannot adjust prices without also bringing about a contraction in the volume of paper money and other instruments of credit, and so far as it is possible to enforce contraction without interfering with the production of what is really necessary, the reduction of prices will be facilitated.
This is the way in which it was facilitated. In October, 1920, circulation amounted to $249,000,000. In three months this was reduced by $43,000,000, and by June 30, 1921, the banks had taken another $10,000,000 out of circulation. Had the decrease in circulation been less rapid, the results would not have been so disastrous. The sudden deflation was certainly appalling.
Banking monopoly naturally leads to industrial monopoly, and this reminds me, Mr. Speaker, of a very interesting debate which was held in this House last session and which you will find, in part, on page 1087 in Hansard. In reference to the debate on interlocking directorates, we had these astounding figures given us. We found that in one case fifteen men with interlocking directorates, with sixteen corporations, controlled a capital of no less than $4,285,000,000. To quote a few more figures along the same line, I should like to refer to the answer to a question which I put on the order paper during last session. The answer gave me the number of people, plus corporations, paying income tax as being 194,257. This, comparatively speaking, small number control an aggregate wealth of no less than $912,410,428. I cannot help, after quoting these few figures, but beg leave to draw your attention to how very closely a prophecy of the great President Lincoln has come true. President Lincoln, in his second letter to Congress, made this statement:
In my present position I could scarcely be justified were I to omit raising a warning voice against the approach of returning despotism. It is the effort to place capital above labour in the structure of the
government.
As a result of the war corporations have been enthroned, and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavour to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my

country than ever before, even in the midst of the war. God grant that my suspicions may prove groundless;
What are conditions in Canada at the present- time? We all admit that we have one of the finest countries in the world; that as an agricultural country, Canada takes a great deal of beating. We all admit that we can grow the finest grain and raise the best of stock. We all admit the vast potential wealth which we have in our minerals. We have a people with energy, perseverance and initiative second to none. We have huge manufacturing plants which have been bolstered up in legislative ways through a protective tariff. But, because of the large quantities we are turning out from our factories not being able to find a market,-under the present system,-in our own country, we are looking for a market abroad. But what is the present state of affairs? Our basic industry is in such a disastrous state that, with all the encouragement that people get to go on to the land, there is a steady drift going from the rural districts. An hon. member from this side of the House stated the other day that 113 people had left his little local town. Another one stated that fourteen families had left his particular district, and that not a single family had taken their place. This seems difficult to understand, when we consider the fact that in western Canada we have taken quantities of international prizes in the matter of grain and stock. The reason for this is not that the country is no good; it is not that the people are no good. The present state of affairs must be due to some other reason. We find Premier Bracken of Manitoba, stating the other day that in that province they have in arrears of taxes no less than $14,000,000, and this after a 'very successful crop. Word comes from Alberta that out of 80,000 farmers, 20,000 are insolvent, and I am told by members of this House that Saskatchewan is in a like plight. I do not know conditions so well in the East. We have been informed, during this session, of the large number of unemployed still in Canada, and one feels inclined to ask the reason why? It is just possible that we find one reason in the fact that we are carrying such a colossal debt. I found it rather interesting the other day to look up the indebtedness which the United States had when they had a population of some 30,000,000. If we compare that with our own nearly 9,000,000 people, and our national debt of some $2,500,000,000, we find that the United States, in the year 1860, with a population of 30,000,000, had a debt of only $65,000,000. Otherwise Canada, with one-third the population, has not less than thirty-eight times as much debt. That
Credit and Industry
may be one of the reasons why conditions are bad in Canada. We are informed in the address by the hon. member for Calgary East (Mr. Irvine) that the total production of this country was no less than $6,000,000,000 and the total consumption was some $2,000,000,000. These figures are confirmed by the Dominion Statistician. In the ordinary walks of life anyone would think they were very well off if they only spent one-third of their income, but Canada seems to be the reverse. Quoting again from the prominent banker in Canada, he says:
Some people find it too easy to blame the war for all conditions, whereas the facts are that the banks could tell, if they would, that in some directions matters bad assumed a very serious aspect, and a crisis which many expected was avoided by the conflict.
We all recognize something is wrong. Each member, in any part of the House, has his own opinion as to what should be done, and although we differ, in our opinions, there is no need for any enmity to be shown between any members, because I believe every member in this House is actuated by the very highest motives in bringing forward what he considers the best suggestions for a way out of this dilemma. The orthodox remedies for this condition are the three following: immi- , gration, greater production and foreign markets. We have seen only too recently from various speakers that immigration has not increased population because of the emigration. We are not able to keep up our population. The matter of greater production is a false cry. All industrial countries have solved that problem long ago. It is not a question of greater production. It is a question of transportation and consumption. Look after the consumer and the producer will look after himself. As far as the foreign market goes, we have to realize that our foreign markets are the other people's home markets and their foreign markets are often our home markets.	It is not a matter of
finding foreign markets, but a matter of giving the people a purchasing power. All countries in my humble opinion should try and provide for their own needs first. How can a country buy foreign goods, if they cannot buy their own? As a proof that the question of production has been solved long ago, I might state that a fact has been mentioned by various eminent men, that the United States alone, if working at one hundred per cent capacity, could supply the needs of the whole world. The economists of Great Britain have often stated that ten per cent of the population of great Britain could supply her needs, if working at one hundred per cent efficiency. It is interest-

come directly from those conditions and have for many years been subject to them. We believe the statements we make are absolutely true, for they are borne out by the facts as we know them where we live, and consequently we would be derelict in our duty if we did not try to lay before the House the true facts regarding a large and important part of Canada. I believe that one of the most unfortunate conditions in this House is that we know so little concerning one another. In the West we know little about the people in the East, we know little about those who are engaged in farm and industrial activities, and they know about as little regarding ourselves. If we could have a true picture drawn of conditions in every part of the country, drawn by those who live there, I believe we could understand those various conditions and deal intelligently with them, and in that way discharge a very important function of parliament. I believe that the fuller and truer knowledge would lead to a greater sympathy, not only of industrial and commercial men for farmers, but of farmers for industrial and commercial men, and of farmers in one line of agriculture with farmers in other lines. From that greater sympathy might spring a spirit of co-operation without which we cannot hope that Canada ever will become the country she should become with her great natural endowments. With that end in view I should like to portray credit conditions as I have seen them in western Canada.
We have spoken in this House of the excessive cost of production being one of what we might term the greatest menaces with which agriculture is faced to-day, due to the fact that we have to sell our products in competition with the world, and that our whole salvation lies in lowering this excessive cost, a very important element of which at the present time is the cost of the credit we have to use in production. There are other elements which will have to be treated in due time. Throughout my district, perhaps one of the best in Alberta, we have suffered least from depression, from the very fact that long before the present Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Motherwell) took office we followed his advice and adopted mixed farming, thus escaping those periods of deflation and expansion to which our wheat growing districts have been subject. We have been producing various products that we could sell every year, and therefore conditions there are not so deplorable as they are in some other parts. But even, there we find the debt of our farm-. ers has grown to very large proportions.
It may be said, and I think with justice, that the farmers themselves are to a large

extent responsible for that condition. I am not going to shirk that question. We have been through the optimistic boom years which preceded the post-war deflation, and naturally we were tempted into extravagant expenditures. But what other industries were exempt? We were tempted perhaps to buy beyond our means, as were those engaged in other industries. But the fact remains that we now have to bear the burden of that debt. In spite of what has been said there are very few farmers throughout the country who wish to shirk the responsibility of paying their just debts; but unfortunately there are some who feel that no matter how prosperous conditions may become again they will never be able to pay off their indebtedness. Tied hand and foot as they are financially, no matter whether their unfortunate condition be attributable to their own fault or to circumstances over which they have no control, when they fail to see the slightest gleam of hope in the future and are inclined to leave the country which they feel has not been just to them, we cannot altogether blame them. But the great majority of our farmers have sufficient faith in the productive ability of our country that, given a fair chance, they are determined to pay their debts. The question is, can they do it? And that brings me to my next point.
As I have stated, one of the main reasons for our excessive cost of production is our over-burden of debt. But is there any way of getting out of debt? I believe it is well worth the time of this House to consider if there is not some better method of financing our agriculturists and so enable them to carry on and produce. This is not only a plea for our farmers, it is a plea for the whole country, for I believe that our people are gradually beginning to realize that upon agriculture our national prosperity depends to a large extent. Recently I read a very well written paragraph in a book entitled "The Federal Farm Loan System in Operation". It is the work of Mr. A. C. Wiprud, and he epitomizes my argument so much better than I can hope to do it myself that I shall quote his words. He says:
The present importance of agriculture to civilization lies in the number of people it supports; its ultimate importance lies in the fact that it must continue to provide supplies for an ever-increasing population. The problems of our agricultural industry concern every member of society, and it behooves us to give them our earnest consideration.
It is from that point of view I desire to speak of the problem as a national problem. Since I came to this country thirty years ago as a boy from the Old Land and since becoming a member of this House, it has been my ex-

Credit and Industry
perience that agriculture has been largely-neglected. I am not blaming hon. gentlemen over much for that neglect, for the importance of agriculture has never been sufficiently realized, and it is only of late years since our economic foundation has begun to crumble that the secondary industries based on that foundation are becoming aware of their danger and of the intimate connection that exists, and must exist, between those industries. We have gone on year by year building up the superstructure of our industrial life by taking stone after stone from the foundation, until now our tall chimneys are beginning to rock and it is realized that if the foundation fails the superstructure must fail too. This neglect has not been confined to our own country. Let me just read what Mr. McAdoo says-and I think he will be recognized as a fairly good financial authority throughout this or any other country. He says:
It is a strange thing that throughout American history so little constructive and comprehensive work has been done to conserve the agricultural industry of the country. This industry is absolutely vital to the existence and prosperity of the people. Farmers as a class-
Mark this, because he expresses my thought in far better words than I myself can command.
-do not want superior advantages or benefits conferred upon them by legislation. They do want equal opportunity, and to get that equal opportunity they must have sufficient credit facilities at all times, and they must be available to them on as reasonable terms and at as low rates of interest as are allowed to our business men and manufacturers, due regard being had, of course, to the security offered and to the conditions applicable to each. In other words, agricultural credit should be as available as commercial credit, and upon equally favourable terms all things considered.
Now, I am speaking very briefly, because 1 recognize that the subject may become wearisome to some hon. members, and I realize also that time is passing. However, I will endeavour to show why the present. system has not been thoroughly satisfactory from the point of view of agriculture. You will understand that I am hot at this time attacking our present banking system, because I have not in my own mind a satisfactory system which can take its place. That is one point upon which I wish to have additional information, and it is another reason for the formation of a committee of inquiry. I do not believe, however, that we can have a system which will be not antagonistic but supplementary to our present banking system and will make it more adequate to agricultural needs.
What are the facts? The facts are-and 1 think I am stating them fairly-that owing to the nature of the funds at the disposal of our banks, funds which are liable to be called upon at almost a moment's notice, they cannot and
should not, in justice to their depositors, let any large portion of those funds out on any long-term credits. I think that can be taken as a statement of incontrovertible fact. But due to the nature of agriculture, due to. the fact that the turnover of the farmer is very slow, short-term credits are not suitable to his purposes. When the farmer borrows money on what may be a twelve months turnover in the case of grain or a three years turnover in the case of cattle, a loan for a period of three months is useless unless it is renewed from time to time, with consequent accumulation of interest. Now, that is the unsatisfactory part. Any farmer whose business is on a proper basis is willing to pay fair interest on proper terms for the credit he receives-credit which at the present time is simply the savings of the people. But the banks, I contend, are not in a position under their present system to extend credit on such terms that it is of value to us. It is a most peculiar thing that when one thinks along certain lines he almost invariably finds that someone else has also been thinking along that line and has expressed the view more concisely and in better language than you can yourself. This is what the authority that I have been quoting says on this subject:
In considering what constitutes the source of money supply, we should, of course, direct our attention to the commercial banks, for it is to them that a large part of the money of the nation is intrusted. The cash deposits which they receive, and which are the basis of their loans, they must at all times be prepared to restore either on demand or within a comparatively short time. For this reason they cannot properly invest m other than short-term mortgages or thirty to ninety days personal credits. In other words, deposits must be invested so that a steady stream of payments is flowing into the banks, giving them a chance to expand or contract their loans in response to the rise and fall in the supply of deposits.
In ordinary commerce, as I understand it- and I admit that my knowledge is limited-the turnover is comparatively rapid, and a credit of from three to six months is usually sufficient to cover ordinary commercial transactions. But that is not the case with agriculture, because the present financial system has failed as a system of credit so far as its application to agriculture is concerned. This situation has been recognized, I think, in all civilized countries. It was recognized in the United States; it has been recognized in Europe.
I am not going to speak of Europe, because the conditions of farming there are not applicable to our conditions here. A different style of farming is carried on; the sizes of the farms are different; there are different marketing conditions, different transportation problems-everything is different. But I think it is fair to regard as analogous the con-

Credit and Industry

ditions in the United States, where the farming carried on is very similar to that which is carried on in this county. In 1732 an attempt was made in the state of Connecticut to finance agriculture on terms that could be obtained from ordinary commercial banks, but the attempt failed. A few men got together and tried to establish a species of farmers' bank, but that attempt also was a failure, largely through the antagonistic attitude adopted by the government of the then colony, and the matter was allowed to rest. But as time went on it became more and more evident to the statesmen of that country that if they were to save their agriculture an adequate supply of credit would have to be supplied on reasonable terms.
In March, 1912, President Wilson instructed the embassies and legations of the United States in Europe to inquire into the systems as applied in different European countries, and their replies contained information of such importance that in 1913 a United States commission was appointed and sent through the countries of Europe to investigate the systems in force there. But more than that was done; the conditions pertaining to agriculture in their own country were inquired into, the farmers being heard in different places with a view of ascertaining what their credit needs were and how far the then existing system of finance supplied those needs. They also investigated the methods of the banks themselves to see how far those institutions could supply the necessary funds for agriculture. I may say that associated with that commission were a number of provincial representatives from Canada, who accompanied them and studied the conditions with them.
As a result of that investigation, in 1916, an act was passed in the United States Congress known as the Federal Farm Loan Act. I shall not go into the details of the workings of that act; the point I wish to make is that conditions were found to prevail in that country such as we find to prevail in Canada to-day; that active steps were taken to inquire into those conditions and into possible remedies; that when remedies were found they were adopted and applied. They built up a system of co-operation from the bottom, culminating, through the twelve federal banks, into a farm loan board-a system of co-operation backed in the first instance by the government itself. They took the ground we have taken right along: that the matter had ceased to be a purely agricultural matter; that it was of interest to the country as a whole that agriculture should prosper and should be able to carry on in the best pos-

sible manner; that it was a national problem that would have to be solved in a national way.
Attempts were made in Canada, with varying success, to establish provincial associations or organizations with somewhat similar ends in view. I say, with varying success, because in some provinces the attempt was successful, and in others not so much so. However, the experience derived from the efforts made in that direction points to the fact that this is a national problem rather than a provincial one and should be approached from the national point of view.
The Farm Loan Board have loaned out a great deal of money to the farmers, very largely by selling bonds, and the work has being exceedingly successful. It has assisted in the upbuilding of a great many successful and prosperous agricultural communities where before the men were, as we are in the West at the present time, discouraged and downhearted. The Farm Loan Board provided for a term of credit of about thirty-five years on the amortization plan. But this was not found to wholly fill the bill; it did not meet the situation fully, so they are bringing forward another suggestion for filling the gap between this thirty-five year term and the short term credit given by the banks with farm credits which will run from six months to five years.
It has been said, and there is a great deal of weight to be attached to the view, that we are suffering, not from a lack of credit, but from too much credit in the past, and that what we should do is to pay our debts and not be looking for further credit to be advanced to us. But one of the chief reasons for the establishment of a better system of credit amongst the farmers is to enable them to pay off their existing debts on better terms. I repeat, that is one of the chief reasons why we want a better system of credit established. It is not so much for the expansion of credit so that the farmer may purchase more land, more live stock, more machinery; we have been through that and a lot of us have learned our lesson, but it is to enable us to pay off the present encumbrances laid upon us in a better way as they become due. That is just what they do in the United States. I looked over the percentage of money borrowed in that way that was applied to different objects, and I found that thirteen per cent of the money borrowed was applied to the purchase of more land, nine per cent to buildings and improvements, two per cent to the purchase of implements and equipment, three per cent for live stock, and sixty-eight per cent for the liquidation of present indebted-

Credit and Industry
ness, and I contend that that is largely what would happen if we could establish a system along similar lines in this country. A large portion of the credit would be devoted to the object of liquidating our present encumbrances. And what would that mean? It would mean that instead of being antagonistic to the present banking system, the scheme would be of the greatest help to the banks because it would mean more money in circulation, and that people, being able to pay their debts as they became due, without pressure, w'ould be able to buy the things they require, and industry, which is now at a standstill more or less, would begin to move again.
I am making no plea that this is a universal panacea, that this by itself will place the western provinces or the agricultural industry in Canada on a proper footing. But I do claim that this is one of the ways in which the subject might be approached. It would be one of the remedies which taken together with other remedies would put us on a proper footing and enable us to play our part worthily in the shipbuilding of our nation. For that reason I would not have moved this as a resolution for the government to establish such a system. That is not my purpose at all, but I do think it is worthy of consideration as to whether we should not inquire into the possibilities of this or other methods of finance. That, I believe, is worthy of the government's consideration. If that is a practical suggestion-and it has precedent behind it, it has proved successful in other countries, then I think it- is well worth the while of the government of this country to make inquiry as to how far it might be adapted to our needs here. I think that is a very fair request.
_ As the time is getting on, I have no intention of developing this argument further. I knew when I started I had no great contribution to make to this debate. I simply wish to throw out a suggestion which might be taken in conjunction with the resolution moved by my hon. friend from Calgary East (Mr. Irvine). I find a good deal of merit in what he said, even though I cannot understand all of it. I think his statement of conditions was a fair statement, not overdrawn. His ideas of a remedy may not coincide with the ideas prevailing in this House, may not coincide altogether with the ideas in my own mind, but the resolution itself and the principle underlying it, that of obtaining information to enable us to deal intelligently with one of the most important subjects in this country, that resolution and that principle is worthy, I think, of the consideration of any body of men
m
In conclusion, I would like to say this. The farmers of this country, as I have endeavoured to point out, are not looking to the government for something for nothing. They are not looking for some special benefit which will accrue to them at the expense of the rest of the community. As far as I am concerned I would not stand for that one moment, and as far as the men who sent me here are concerned, that is far from their ideas because it has been expressed again and again. The only thing that has been urged on me by my constituents when coming here was this, that I would study conditions as I found them according to the opportunities afforded me in this House, and founding my opinion upon those conditions, speak and vote for what I believed to be for the benefit of the country as a whole, for the building up of a united and prosperous Canada. That is what they sent me here for, and that is my endeavour in this House. I believe this question of credit is one which if not at this session, at some future session will have to be most carefully studied. The time will come when its importance will be recognized on all sides of the House so that when the subject is announced for debate, the benches, instead of emptying, will fill, because we will know that it will mean a discussion of one of the greatest problems of this or any other country. I think it is reasonable, I think it is sane, that all of us should do what we can to understand conditions as they exist now throughout this country, as we do not understand them at the present time, and to understand the remedies provided in other countries, as we do not understand them at the present time, and to use the best judgment that we unitedly have to solve a problem which is advisedly one of the greatest problems of our age.


Hewitt Bostock: Before the debate proceeds any further on this motion, I am obliged to say that in my opinion the amendment is not properly drafted, and is not relevant to the main motion. The main motion has for its object the investigation of the basis, the function and the control of financial credit, and the relation of credit to the industrial problems. That is the one set principle in the main motion, and the amendment should be consistent with the principle involved in the main motion. What does the amendment state? First, that the bank charters be extended for twelve months subject to such amendments of the Bank Act as may be passed during the session. Now there is nothing in this which is relevant to the
Credit and Industry

main motion. The second part of the amendment, which recommends that the final revision of the Bank Act be reserved till after the report of any committee that may be appointed under this resolution, is perhaps a little more relevant to the main motion, but it does not come at its proper time. If this main motion should be adopted by the House, a parliamentary committee would be appointed, and then instructions could be given to that committee to the effect that the final revision of the Bank Act should be reserved until after its report. But, as the amendment is drafted here, it is, in my humble judgment, totally inconsistent with the principle involved in the main motion. Let me on this point read what Bourinot, in his fourth edition at page 321, says:
It is an imperative rule that every amendment must be relevant to the question on which the amendment has been proposed, and this rule has been invariably insisted upon by Canadian speakers.
Bourinot states that the English speakers have also finally adopted that rule, which was followed more closely by Canadian speakers. He goes on to say:
It is not, therefore, surprising that the latest English decisions are in accord with those of the Canadian speakers. Sir Erskine May-
That great authority.
-in later editions, however, lays it down "an imperative rule that every amendment must be relevant to the question on which the amendment is proposed."
In the present instance, I consider that the principle involved in the amendment is foreign to the principle involved in the main motion. There is only one exception to this rule. It is on the motion to go into Supply or Ways and Means where the policy of the government may be challenged. This is the only case in which there can be exceptions to the rule which I have just cited, and which is the rule recognized by all parliamentary authorities. I would, therefore, rule that this amendment is out of order and that the debate shall proceed on the main motion without any further consideration of the amendment. Of course, this does not prevent any other amendment being moved, but the present one is ruled out of order.


William Stevens Fielding: Mr. Speaker, we have had a very
interesting discussion of a very important question. I do not rise for the purpose of opposing or discussing any of the views that have been presented by the hon. member for Calgary East (Mr. Irvine) who moved the resolution, the hon member for Battle River (Mr. Spencer) who seconded it, and the hon member for Red Deer (Mr. Speak-

man) who has supported it in such moderate and eloquent terms. What I want to suggest is that no good purpose would be served by dividing the House upon it. No good purpose can be served by setting up another special committee for this purpose. It has been announced that, in not many days, a revision of the Bank Act will be submitted to the House, and while government bills are not always submitted to committees other than the Committee of the Whole, in this case, for good reasons, it is the intention of the government to submit the bill, as has been done on previous occasions, to the Committee on Banking and Commerce, with the fullest opportunity for considering every question that may be related to it. Almost every one of the questions that have been discussed this afternoon will arise in connection with the Bank Act, as indeed, most of the, speakers have discussed the merits of the Bank Act, and, therefore, a special committee appointed to consider this matter would not, I think, serve a good purpose. There are times and occasions when special committees are proper, but I do not think it is wise to multiply them unless for strong and particular reasons.
If the hon. member for Calgary East should succeed in having his motion pass, what will be the situation? We shall have the Bank Act, as I said, before many days; it will go to the Committee on Banking and Commerce, and that committee will be dealing with this very question from a practical standpoint. At the same time, there will be sitting in another room another committee dealing with all the theories that can be advanced on the same question. One is reminded of the small boy going to the circus where the performance takes place in two rings. He wants to watch both rings, and as a result, he comes away with a splitting headache. If we are to have two committees of this House running at the same time, dealing with the same thing, I am sure this will make for confusion.
I do not want to discuss the merits of the resolution. I know the importance of the question, especially as related to agriculture, as was stated by the hon. member for Red Deer. I believe, however, all these questions can be approached when the Bank Act is before the committee, and, therefore, I will earnestly ask my hon. friend not to insist in setting up a second committee. I am sure every object the hon. gentleman can have, can be covered by leaving the matter to come before the Committee on Banking and Commerce.


Hon.   S@: Mr. Speaker, I do not rise to object at all

Credit and Industry
to anything the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) has said. I entirely agree with him that the only way we can make any useful progress in this important matter is to work all together at the same time. But I am not quite sure that everything comes within the scope of the Bank Act. To my mind, a,very important question of this whole matter of credit is the one that has been chiefly touched upon by the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Speakman). I refer to that kind of credit which, as he himself has pointed out, cannot be given by banks in such a way that agriculturists can well take advantage of it. I do not know that my hon. friend will have that included in any section of the Bank Act. I would like this understanding of the House -and I am quite sure my hon. friend will give it-that outside of the question of the banks themselves, outside of the question of any particular section in the Bank Act or any subject covered by it, that committee may also consider this question of agricultural loans and the kind of institution to put up which would be best adapted to look after them. That is something that, if it is at all practicable, ought to be considered, whether it will be something along the line of the Italian system or the American system or what. I am quite sure that most of the hon. gentlemen would fall in with my hon. friend's suggestion as long as we have that understanding.


William Stevens Fielding: I can only say that so far as I have any opportunity of advising or assisting the Banking and Commerce Committee, my wish will be that they shall not be restricted, but shall give effect to a desire for a full discussion of the whole question. More than that, I cannot say, because the matter will be in the hands of that committee, but at all events, all practical questions involved in this resolution can be brought before the committee, and I feel that if another committee were appointed, confusion and delay would result.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Perhaps we can get to our point without any danger by simply referring this resolution to the Banking and Commerce Committee. That would cover everything.


William Stevens Fielding: I do not know that there is any objection to the resolution being referred to the Committee on Banking and Commerce, if the hon. gentleman will be content with that. If this will express the wish of the House, I will readily move that the resolution be referred to the Committee on Banking and Commerce.
. Mr. SPEAKER: Moved by Mr. Fielding, seconded by Mr. Graham, that the Committee on Banking and Commerce do investigate the basis, the function and the control of financial credit, and the relation of credit to the industrial problems.


William Stevens Fielding: May I say that my motion is that the resolution of the hon. member be referred to the Committee on Banking and Commerce, not with any special instructions, but for such action as they deem best?


Hewitt Bostock: 


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
William Irvine: Have I the right to speak on the motion?


Hewitt Bostock: I thought the hon. member had adopted the reference to Committee on Banking and Commerce. However, if he wishes to speak, we will call it six o'clock.
At six o'clock the House took recess.
After Recess
The House resumed at eight o'clock.


William Irvine: Before replying, Mr. Speaker, I should like some information on one point. We could not hear the discussion that went on just before six o'clock and I am not quite sure now what is implied in the amendment, or whether it is indeed an amendment, that has been proposed. If I understand it, it is that the Committee on Banking and Commerce will be instructed by this House to act in the same capacity as a committee which might be appointed under this resolution. If that is correct, then I would acquiesce in that proposal; if not, the motion would have to come to a vote and there are a number of hon.' gentlemen who wish to speak on the subject.


George Perry Graham: The amendment of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) is that the resolution be referred to the Committee on Banking and Commerce, which, of course, would have full power to deal with this as with all other questions pertaining to the banking system. No particular instructions are given to that committee to deal with these matters; the power to consider them inheres in the committee.


Hewitt Bostock: The amendment reads:
That this motion be referred to the select standing committee on Banking and Commerce.


William Irvine: Then, Sir, there are other hon. gentlemen who wish to speak before I reply.


Mr. W. C. GOOD (Brant):: I wish that this point that has ben raised were cleared

Credit and Industry
up. I had intended to speak to the resolution, but if the purpose of the House is to refer this matter to the Committee on Banking and
Commerce with instructions to investigate the subject under consideration to-day, then I think I could postpone anything I have to say until a later occasion. There seems to be, however, still some doubt, particularly since the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Graham) has stated the purpose of the amendment. Personally, I would prefer to have that point cleared up before I speak.


George Perry Graham: I cannot make it any clearer. The Committee on Banking and Commerce will have full power to deal with everything pertaining to the banking question, and hon. gentlemen will have full opportunity to place their views before that committee.


William Charles Good: It seems to me that a difficulty arises in connection with that proposal. If this matter were referred to that committee they might simply decline to consider it, and so dispose of it in that way. I would be very much opposed to that sort of treatment because I regard this question as one of paramount importance. The so-called practical man is very fond of airily dismissing new ideas with a wave of the hand and the assertion that they are mere theories, fads, and so forth. Now, we cannot honestly dispose of matters in that way. History shows us that many, if not all, of our established beliefs and practices were at one time assailed on the ground that they were new ideas or mere fancies, and their advocates were very frequently treated not only with levity but with cruelty. It does not do to condemn any new idea merely because it is new or because it is unpopular. Are our conditions at the present time so satisfactory that we need to make no effort to remedy evils that are claimed to exist? Perhaps, for some, conditions are satisfactory. Some may be disposed to say, let well enough alone. I do not doubt that for some, at least, in this country life is easy and pleasant and that there are no very serious problems. But for many others, and for us collectively as a nation, it is not so. It is not so for the; wage-earner who is out of a job and is enmeshed in the system as we have it. It is not so for the farmer who finds himself practically compelled to quit his business, to give up his home and to emigrate. It is not so for many of our people as individuals. And it certainly ought not to be so for us collectively. I take it that we here are supposed to consider the welfare of Canada, and I do not think that things are well enough to be let alone. Why, even such a staunch 
Conservative as Lord Milner, in a recent survey of social and industrial problems, is driven to a degree of radicalism that I think would astonish some hon. members on the government side, not to speak of those to my right. May I read one or two statements from Lord Milner's recent survey? He says in one place:
The real gravamen of the charge against our present industrial system is not that it involves an unfair distribution of the product, but that it mismanages, misdirects and therefore unduly limits production itself.
Then further on he recalls that before the war there were eleven million people in England living on the verge of starvation. He says:
It may be true that we do not produce sufficient to meet all their needs. But why don't we?
Speaking as to unemployment, he says:
We settle down to tolerate it just as we do the vagaries of the weather, and wait until the malady reaches an acute stage, whereupon we get in a flurry and suddenly improvise committees to look out for a palliative. Would it not be better to try and strike at the root of the evil, or at any rate to discover it.
In another place he expresses the following opinion:
The actual output of industry is far below what it ought to be, and the needs of the great body of the people remain unsatisfied, not because the means of satisfying them do not exist, but because they are not properly made use of. And they will never be properly made use of until the materials and instruments of production are controlled, if not actually owned, by independent and self-governing groups of producers, free to develop their several industries for their own benefit and that of the community, not for the advantage and under the dictation of persons who themselves take no part in the work.
And the Hon. Reginald McKenna, who certainly is not generally considered to be a radical, has recently discussed in a very illuminating way the whole problem of inflation and deflation as affecting British industry at the present time.
Now, Mr. Speaker, let me again draw attention to the paradox, the anomaly, the tragedy of the present situation. We have abundant resources, we have abundant labour power, and we have abundant equipment- these I think, are world conditions, and they are certainly true of Canada-we have all the powers of nature and science at our disposal, and yet in spite of all these powers and resources we have want, unemployment and misery-a creeping paralysis extending over our industrial structure. Do we confess ourselves baffled by this enigma? Is that the position we wish to take in this House?
I should like to direct your attention also, Mr. Speaker, to the tragic consequences of

Credit and Industry
price changes as we have seen them operating during the last few years-the awful consequences of inflation and deflation. Is there no way of stabilizing the purchasing power of our money? This, I think, is a legitimate question, and a wider question perhaps than any that is likely to confront us in the revision of the Bank Act, but in my judgment, for the reasons already stated, it is the most important question of all. Do we want to confess ourselves baffled and beaten by that problem also and say " Let well enough alone"?
Then let us look at conditions as they exist in this country. Reference has already been made to the statement that Canada is an immigration sieve, and I believe statistics will prove it to be true. Reference has been made also to our tremendous national debt with its staggering interest charges.
Now, I ask another question: Has credit, as understood in the resolution, no connection at all with these strange enigmas and great problems? If it has even the slightest connection, do you not think we ought to know what that connection is, do you not think we ought to know the facts so that we may be able to devise suitable remedies? When the stress of war came and ordinary methods were found inadequate we devised extraordinary measures to deal with the situation. The need was realized very keenly, and that need was met. Such extraordinary measures were adpoted not only in Canada but in practically all the belligerent countries. Special financial methods were resorted to in order to deal with the needs that arose out of war conditions.
There was a need then, and it was met. But what about now? Is there no corresponding need? I do not say that the need is identical with that which existed during the war years, but I do say that it is a very similar need, and almost equally pressing. And is it not just possible that we might meet it now if we knew more about the basis, the function and the control of credit?
I do not see that it matters very much if in some respects international action should be necessary. Canada at all events could point the way, especially as we have now the germ of an international organization in the League of Nations, through which any fruitful and suggestive ideas might be explored and extended.
I ask again, what about our experts in political economy? Are these men of no value? Is it not possible that we may get some suggestions from them which may assist us in meeting the present need? And what of
others not occupying professorial chairs in our seats of learning, but who have given intense and patient study to some of these problems, have written about them and discussed them on the public platform, are we to take no advantage of their studies? The need is great, and consequently many people have attempted to meet it by patient research, followed by suggestions and recommendations. Personally I do not know how much value there is in many of their opinions, but I think we ought to know if there is any, and it seems to me it would be well to bring some of these experts before us and get the benefit of their advice.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I believe the resolution states a real need. I have no objection to its being referred to the Committee on Banking and Commerce, providing that the committee is instructed to investigate this question. Otherwise I would be opposed to the resolution being so dealt with, because the committee might easily say, "We have enough to do without taking up this question; we will let it stand over for another year." I think we might have some expressions of opinion on a question of this importance from hon. members on the other side of the House and from those in the extreme comer opposite. So far in the course of this debate to-day contributions to it have been confined practically to members in this quarter of the Chamber. I repeat, I certainly would oppose the reference of the resolution to the Committee on Banking and Commerce unless it be accompanied by special instructions of the nature I have indicated.


Mr. E. J. GARLAND (Bow River):: Mr. Speaker, I assure you that it is with some diffidence that I rise to address the House on this question at this time. I have anxiously watched hon. members on the other side to see if any of them would enter this debate and either help it along or try to retard it, and I have looked down here to my right, but there have not been more than five or six members present in that corner at any one time, so that my attention has not been very much diverted in that direction. I must confess I am astonished that there has been no utterance from hon. members opposite on this question. Both the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) and the ex-Minister of Finance (Sir Henry Drayton) admit that the question is a vital one and that it requires investigation-but that is all. Do you not think that their attitude is a strong argument for the appointment of a special
Credit and Industry

issue of credit based on the potential capacity of the country to produce and deliver goods, that the credit should be controlled by industrial banks applying to the particular industries concerned. Then we have advocated in Nova Scotia the decentralization of the banks and the increasing of their capitalization to meet the necessity of this country for currency. We have the Australian Commonwealth bank favoured and supported by a large number of people in this country. We have the United States system of banking, with decentralization, doing away with the big monopoly, and having a string of small banks all over the country. In view of all these proposals and the support they are receiving, does not the House think the time has come for a full and impartial investigation? No banking committee would have time to go into the question of credit; that is utterly out of the question, and the Minister of Finance knows that, I am sure. What we do require is a special committee appointed for the purpose, and if it is possible, Mr. Speaker, to give that committee permission to sit through the whole year, we should do so, because no committee can sift all these proposals in a few months and arrive at a conclusion. What we want is a committee which would sit a whole year, or longer, if necessary, until a solution has been found.


William Irvine: It has struck'me as singular that not one member has advanced an argument in opposition to my argument for an investigation of the credit system. It is also very singular that hon. gentlemen opposite have been silent on the matter entirely. When I compare the enthusiasm with which they discussed, patronage, a paltry question, almost unworthy of being discussed on the floor of the House, with the interest they display on the great question of credit and finance, admitted by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) to be great and important, it will appear that the silence is not complimentary to hon. members on the government side of the House.
The hon. Minister of Finance offered the following objections. He said that no good purpose could be served by bringing this thing up at this time. I should like to know when the proper time- is to bring anything in here. No matter when a resolution comes from this side of the House and no matter what is proposed, the objection always is that it is the wrong time, some other time would be better. The plea of the government always is, we might possibly on some other occasion consider it, but we must not consider now.

That is becoming rather a popular though tiresome objection to proposals.
Another of his objections was that no good purpose could be gained by dividing the House. I am not anxious to divide the House. I hope the House will be unanimous in supporting this resolution.
His next objection was that a special committee would not be required seeing that there is a banking committee. The Minister of Finance knows very well that the purpose for which the banking committee exists is to deal with legislation. They will be dealing with bills, and it will take them practically all session to deal with the Bank Act revision, which is a gigantic task. The Minister of Finance knows very well that there is a distinction between the work of an investigational committee such as we desire, and the work of a select standing committee We want a committee to investigate the basis, and the function of credit and the relation of credit to the industrial paralysis that obtains in Canada at the present time. But if this parliament will instruct the select standing Committee on Banking and Commerce to act in the same capacity as the committee that we are advocating the appointment of, then there will be no objection. I believe, however, to refer this resolution to that committee in the manner proposed by the amendment is, not only not giving the resolution a decent burial, but digging a little hole for it and packing it in. If we are going to bury it, let us bury it properly, with that pomp which becomes this House.
In conclusion, let me point out what this parliament -has admitted by its silence. H I may assume that silence gives consent, then hon. members of the government side have admitted that our industrial conditions are due directly to the lack of financial credit; that Canada can use her own credit if she so desires, without going to the United States to borrow it; that those who control finances do control governments and the policies of industry; that money is not performing the original function for which it was designed; that the financial system is in danger of collapse; that a fundamental change in our credit system is required, and that there is a great need for more information. Only, they have said: "This is not the time to get information ; this is not the time for the financial system to collapse. We will ask it to collapse when we are ready for that; we will not bother about its collapsing just now. This is not the time for us to inquire into the functions of a thing that is not functioning." They have also said that this is not the time to do all the other things that they

West Ukrainian Republic
have silently admitted to be facts. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) answers all these arguments with a little circus story; but if that little circus story in the mouth of the Minister of Finance, speaking for the government, be a sufficient answer for this government to my argument, it is not a good enough answer for me.


Hon. J. A. ROBB (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, the suggestion of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) that this question should be referred to the Committee on Banking and Commerce seems to me, not only reasonable, but very practical. The hon. member for Calgary East (Mr. Irvine) has introduced a resolution which, all will admit, has a relation to the banking and credit of this country. Let us not forget that the Committee on Banking and Commerce is a committee of this House and a committee representing, not only supporters of the government, but all groups in this House. It is interesting to note that my hon. friend who moved the resolution is himself a member of the Banking and Commerce Committee, and that the hon. member for Brant (Mr. Good) and the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Speakman) are also members of the Banking and Commerce Committee. In short, nineteen or twenty members of the group opposite who are supporting this resolution are members of the Banking and Commerce Committee. Therefore, when the Minister of Finance suggested that we should refer this matter to the Banking and Commerce Committee, he did so with the idea, not of burying it, but of getting the best information possible before the committee specially selected under our constitution to deal with this matter. Let us assume, for a moment, that the government would accept the idea of the hon. member who moved this resolution. What would that mean? It would mean that we would be referring the question to another committee that might possibly keep the hon. member for Calgary East busy at a time when he should be before the Banking and Commerce Committee bringing out the information which members of this House all desire. Therefore, the suggestion of the Minister of Finance is with the idea, not of burying this resolution, but of getting more information and bringing it before the Banking and Commerce Committee, so that the House may be in a position to deal intelligently with the matter. If the Banking and Commerce Committee reports that it is not satisfactory, then hon. gentlemen opposite will have an opportunity to debate the question when the report of that committee is taken into consideration. The
government have but one desire, and that is to obtain the fullest information possible, so that Canada may deal intelligently with her banking and commerce laws as presented to parliament this year.


Hewitt Bostock: Mr. Irvine moves, seconded by Mr. Good:
That, in the opinion of this House, a representative Parliamentary committee should be appointed to investigate the basis, the function and the control of financial credit, and the relation of credit to the industrial problems.
To this Mr. Fielding moves, seconded by Mr. Graham, in amendment:
That the words:
'a representative parliamentary committee should be appointed' should be struck out, and the following substituted therefor:	'the question of appointing a
representative parliamentary committee'
And that the following words be added to the main motion:
'be referred to the standing Committee on Banking and Commerce.'
For the information of the House, I shall read the motion as it would stand, if amended:
That, in the opinion of this House, the question of appointing a representative parliamentary committee to investigate the basis, the function and the control of financial credit, and the relation of credit to the industrial problems, be referred to the standing Committee on Banking and Commerce.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Motion as amended, agreed to.

Mr. M. N. CAMPBELL (Mackenzie) moved:: Whereas Eastern Galicia and Northern Bukowina were constituted on November 9. 1918, as an independent state under the name of West Ukrainian Republic ;
And whereas the integrity of this state is guaranteed by the League of Nations of which League Canada is a member; therefore be it resolved that this House urge upon the government the -desirability of making representations through its accredited representatives, to the Councils of the League of Nations, the necessity of early, complete and final settlement of the Ukrainian question.
He said: Mr. Speaker, in presenting the case in support of the resolution before the House, perhaps it is essential that I should give a brief resume of the history of the Ukraine and of the Ukrainian people in order that we may arrive at a better understanding of the question. From the dawn of history, there has been a distinct Ukrainian race with a language of its own and possessing a literature that is a thousand years old. The early history of the Ukraine is one series of bloody wars with the Poles and Lithuanians on the west, the Muscovites on the north, and the Turks and Tartars on the east. These wars
West Ukrainian Republic

gave rise to the organization of the renowned Cossacks or free warriors to defend the Ukraine against these invaders. Their early institutions appear to have been very democratic and their Hetman or President was elected by popular vote of the fighting men, and all authority lay in the hands of a general assembly whose decisions were enforced by elective officers.
In 1854, for mutual protection against the Poles on the one side and the Turks on the other, the independent Ukrainian state signed a Treaty of Union with Russia. This union gradually developed into subjugation of the state to Russia. The Cossacks were given many privileges, and became part of Russia's best fighting force. By a treaty with Poland, Russia conceded Galicia, the western part of the Ukraine, to Poland. On the dismemberment of the latter country in 1772 Galicia or west Ukraine became Austrian territory, and remained so unitl 1918. On the breaking up of that Empire, the members of the Austrian diet representing the eastern part of Galicia met and formed a national government and proclaimed the independent state of West Ukraine. This country has a population of about 6,000,000, seventy-four per cent of which is Ukrainian, about twelve per cent Poles, the balance German and Jews. It is a rich country with oil wells, forests and productive land.
Poland, remembering that this had been a part of her ancient kingdom, invaded the infant state in November 1918, and a bloody war ensued with varying success for several months. The Poles made insistent demands on the Allies for assistance in repelling the supposed Bolsheviks from East Galicia. Fearing the spread of the Bolshevik movement west, the Supreme Council of the Peace Conference consented to military occupation of the country by the Poles with the understanding that the right of self-determination was eventually to prevail. Later, the army commanded by General Haller was placed at the disposal of Poland. General Haller was a former Austrian officer and his army was composed of Poles recruited from the Allied armies, principally from the army of the United States. This army was well trained, equipped and provisioned and against it the poorly armed fighting force of the Ukrainian state made desperate but ineffectual resistance. Attacked by the Bolsheviki on the one side and by the Poles on the other, the greater part of the army was destroyed, the remnant taking refuge in Czecho-Slovakia. Since then Poland has been in control of the state and is using her military power to stamp out the national and intellectual life of the Ukrainian people. She has taken measures towards in-

corporating East Galicia into the Polish state. This action the people are fiercely resisting, and are daily coming into bloody conflict with the Polish officers. These conflicts are resulting in a destruction of life and property almost as bad as actual warfare. It is estimated that during the past season over $100,000,000 worth of grain and other farm produce has been destroyed by the peasants, rather than have it confiscated by their oppressors. Some idea of the sufferings endured by the people of this little state may be understood from the fact that it is estimated that upwards of 100,000 of its soldiers and civilians have died in Polish prisons and detention camps. I have here a mass of evidence dealing with this, but it is too lengthy to give here. I will confine myself to a quotation, not from a Ukrainian but from a Polish paper. The " Robotnik " published in Warsaw in its issue of October 16, 1919, has this to say of the conditions accorded the Ukrainian prisoners in Polish prisons and detention camps:
The conditions prevailing in the camps for war prisoners in Modlin and Brest are horrible. That at Brest is disgusting and a disgrace to the Polish State.
Then follows a long description of the living quarters and the conditions under which these men are obliged to live.
Two months ago from 50 to 100 dead were daily taken out of this camp in which about 6,000 prisoners of war were confined. When, the interned come out of the camp and stand in line to receive their rations- a veritable procession of death presents itself. All are famished and half frozen. They scramble and fight for the sparce food and the bits left over by the soldiers in the kitchen. They eat wild berries, and even grass.
Then follows a description of the rather brutal treatment meted out to the prisoners by the soldiers.
In the night they shiver with cold, since they are covered only with rags. Once they tried to light a fire in the camp, but they were chased away by the soldiers with musket butts and the fire extinguished "for fear many might be suffocated by the smoke". They are so enfeebled that they are scarcely able to walk, and give this in excuse when commanded to a more rapid gait. For this they are treated with blows from the butts of muskets, the soldiers deal these out generously, because the "men will die anyhow".
Some of them beg "make an end of it soldier, I have starved enough". In consequence of these blows many really died, they were too weak to stand them. A soldier from Posen goes about constantly with a stick, strikes at random, hitting a head here, a face there and so on; some have even had their eyes knocked out. In despair many have jumped into the river and were drowned, others cut their throats with their knives. Terrible!
Some committees were sent there by the Polish Diet, matters were to be improved. Some of the evil-doers were arrested, and when for a second time enquiries were instituted, order was quickly established. Never-

West Ukrainian Republic
theless these awful conditions continue and will grow still worse in the coming winter.
It is high time that the guilty be held responsible, it is time to expose this terrible state of affairs to the public.
By the Treaty of St. Germain September 10,
1919,	Austria surrendered all interest in East Galicia in favour of the allied governments, who by thus accepting this territory from Austria have become responsible for its final disposal, and morally liable for the protection and welfare of its people. The Supreme Council on December 8th, 1919, drew up Poland's frontier known to-day as the Curzon. line between Poland and East Galicia, confirming the fact that East Galicia is outside Polish territory. This is an indication that the action of Poland is illegal, unwarranted and immoral. In the Treaty of Sevres, June 10,
1920,	East Galicia appears as a distinct contracting party, recognized as such by the representatives of the allied governments. Again in the Treaty of Spa, July 10, 1920, between Poland and the Allies, Poland stated implicitly that East Galicia was the property of the Allies and promised to evacuate the state on the demand of the allied governments. United States Secretary of State Colby, in a note of August 10, 1920, to the Italian Ambassador and in a statement to the press on October 10, 1920, stated emphatically that Poland must be an ethnographic state and that she must accept the Curzon line as her extreme eastern boundary. He also declared that the government of the United States advised Poland to withdraw her forces from all territory lying to the east of the Curzon line. On this occasion Mr. Colby made mention of East Galicia. He expressed his regret over the fact that Poland led by Imperialism, occupied Vilna, the capital of Lithuania, in the same arbitrary and lawless manner in which she prevously had occupied East Galicia. On December 15, 1920 the Executive Committee of the League of Nations Society of London passed a resolution calling upon the British government to take action with a vew to establishing the national independence of East Galicia. Similarly on March 20,	1922 the
Council of the French League of Nations Society called upon the French government to take action. The Council of the League of Nations at its meeting February 23rd, 1921, reported to the Council of Ambassadors at Paris impressing upon them the necessity of settling the political status of East Galicia. At a meeting of the League of Nations at Geneva on September 23rd,	1921, the Hon. Mr. Doherty, one of the Canadian representatives, moved the following resolution:
That the Assembly of the League of Nations draw the attention of the Supreme Council to the desirability of determining at an early date the legal status of East Galicia.
This resolution was passed unanimously by the league. I have here the report of the Canadian delegate to the third assembly of the League of Nations whose conferences were held between the 3rd and the 30th of September, 1922. On page 4 I find the following:
At the second assembly, on the motion of a Cana. dian delegate, a resolution was adopted expressing hope of an early setlement of the question of the status of Eastern Galicia. That matter being still unsettled, Mr. Fielding moved a renewal of the expression of last year in the following terms:
"The Assembly of the League of Nations renews its wish, expressed in the resolution adopted by the second assembly on September 27, 1921, that the council of the league draw the attention of the principal allied and associated powers to the desirability of determining at an early date the status of Eastern Galicia."
I beg leave to place upon Hansard a resolution passed at a public meeting held in the city of Winnipeg in May last and which resolution deals fully with this matter. This is signed by the chairman, Rev. Dr. Gordon, the mover, Mr. J. W. Arsenych; and the seconder, Mr. W. R. Wood.
Resolution re Ukraine
Whereas, Eastern Galicia and Northern Bukowina were constituted on November 9th, 1918, as an independent state under the name of Eastern Ukrainian Republic;
Whereas, a government of this state was formed by the duly elected representatives of the population of the state and the government under presidency of Dr. Eugene Perushevich still exists-in exile:
Whereas, Poland made an aggressive war upon the Western Ukrainian Republic in order to gain possession of her rich oil-fields, forests and lands: Whereas, on June 25th, 1919, upon Polish representations, Poland was authorized by the Supreme Council of the Peace Conference to occupy Eastern Galicia by military force, the future of the territory to be decided by the Peace Conference, Rumania in the meantime occupying Northern Bukowina:
Whereas, the territory of Western Ukrainian Republic was described as an entirely separate entity by the Treaty of St. Germain (September 10th, 1919), by the settlement of Spa (July 10, 1920), by the Treaty of Sevres (August 10, 1920) and by the declaration of British government (by Mr. Harmsworth, Under-Secretry to the Minister of Foreign Affairs), ip the British House of Commons (July 6th, 1921): Whereas, the Assembly of the League of Nations September 23rd, 1921, upon Motion of the Canadian Representative, Hon. Charles D. Doherty, unanimously passed the following resolution:-
"That the Assembly of the League of Nations draw the attention of the Supreme Council to the desirability of determining at an early date the legal status of Eastern Galicia."
Whereas, up to the present date the legal status of the territory of Western Ukrainian Republic has not been determined:
Whereas, since occupation of the Western Ukrainian territory until present moment, Poland assumes right of sovereignty over this territory and exercises same: Whereas, this undertermined legal status of the Western Ukrainian Republic and Polish pretensions create abnormal conditions there; and
West Ukrainian Republic

Whereas, according to press reports, private letters and testimony of eye-witnesses arriving in Canada, the following state of affairs obtains in Galicia: Poland forces Ukrainians to accept Polish allegiance and change of religion: Poland suppresses Ukrainian language on Ukrainian territory; Polish authorities have suppressed Ukrainian public schools, high schools and higher educational institutions and do not allow to establish private schools; thousands of Ukrainian youth are deprived of educational facilities: Ukrainian lectures at the University of Lemberg are abolished; when a private Ukrainian University was established in Lemberg, its president, some professors and many students were imprisoned; practically all Ukrainian cultural, social and benevolent institutions [DOT] were crippled, hampered and ultimatily suppressed and prohibited, and Ukrainian Citizens' Relief Committee at Lemberg, which was handling the Ukrainian Red Cross moneys collected in Canada for the relief of Ukrainians, was deliberately disorganized and prevented from working by the Polish government: Ukrainian economic organizations are prevented to engage in reconstruction of the country: Ukrainian public men are being persecuted, imprisoned, slain or starved without reasonable cause: Ukrainian press is hampered, confiscated and suppressed; with the aid of military forces, a census of population was instituted by Polish authorities, and Ukrainians under pain of imprisonment. and maltreatment and heavy fines were forced to declare allegiance to Poland; Eastern Galicia is being colonized by Polish immigrants while the-Ukrainians are not alowed to buy land; Polish authorities make requisitions of grain and cattle without payments; the Polish Diet in Warsaw imposed upon Eastern Galicia an extraordinary levy of 20,000,000,000 Polish marks for the upkeep of the large Polish army of occupation; the populations of Eastern Galicia, impoverished by the continuous war of eight years' duration will be brought to utter ruin by this levy:
Now therefore be it resolved, that we the Canadian citizens in mass meeting assembled in the Convention Hall, City of Winnipeg, this 22nd day of April, 1922, hereby urge the Dominion government and Imperial British government:-
1.	To cause a searching investigation of the conditions existing in Eastern Galicia, and to see that justice is done.
2.	To see that the claims of the Ukrainian people to an independent state within their ethnographical boundaries and the political status of Eastern Galicia be finally determined.
And that copies of this resolution be forwarded to the Dominion government, with the request that the same be forwarded to the Imperial government and to the Delegation of the British Empire at the Economic Conference at Genoa.
Chairman, Dr. C. W. Gordon;
Mover, J. W. Absenych,
Seconder, W. R. Wood.
I also wish to quote briefly from an address delivered at this meeting by the Rev. Dr. Hunter:
The Ukrainians are the third largest national group in Canada. They number in this country at the lowest estimate 350,000 people. It is time the English-speaking people were getting better acquainted with them. . . People of the British races have always believed in fair play and in justice. When nearly half a million of our Canadian population are kept in distress and agitation by reports of hideous cruelty to their friends and relatives in Europe, it is a matter that concerns Canada.
And further, from the Rev. J. M. Shaver's address on the same occasion:

I am here, in the second place, because I believe that your helping your people at home does not make you less valuable Canadians but on the other hand makes you more valuable. The man who can easily forget the land which gave him his mother, his basic moral principles, his early loves and hates and hopes and fears, is a dangerous man. I am always expecting such a man to be a "crook" of some sort. It is the strongest characters who do not change so easily.
Further on Mr. Shaver states:
This brings me the expression of some reasons why you have a right to ask for our sympathy. First of all, because we know what freedom is and we know that the only way to keep our freedom is to help others to get it.
Second, because your sacrifice to save Europe from the invading Tartar and Turk was a sacrifice for us, for which we have never been able to pay.
Third, because you are largest non-English speaking group of fellow-citizens in western Canada to-day.
The occupation of East Galicia by the military forces of Poland remains in force tc the present day. But this occupation is provisional and will cease just as soon as the Supreme Council determines the political relationship of this country. In other words the ultimate international status of East Galicia remains as yet to be defined, and the duty of determining this status devolves upon the allied and associated powers or their representative body, the Supreme Council of the Peace Conference, because by article 91 of the Treaty of Saint Germain, the allied and associated powers are the sovereigns of East Galicia.
Until recently, settlers in this country from East Galicia were described on their naturalization certificates as "Citizens of Poland." During the past session, I had frequent interviews with the Under Secretary of State about this matter; and in my letter to him of June 22nd, I dealt with the legal status of these people and pointed out that in reality they were wards of the allied governments. The department, I understand, referred the subject of my letter to the British authorities, and I have here a letter from the department, which in part reads as follows:
Adverting to Mr. Mulvey's letter to you of June 22, 1922, with respect to applicants for naturalization of Ukrainian origin, I beg to inform you that this department is now describing such persons as "subjects of allied powers" and any applicants who received certificates describing them as "Poles" may have their certificates changed by returning them to this department.
The action of the under-secretary of State in this matter of naturalization is greatly appreciated by my constituents as well as by all the people of Ukrainian origin in Canada. If anything further were necessary to prove to this House that Poland has no legal status in East Galicia, it is the fact that our own Department of Secretary of State now legally

West Ukrainian Republic
describes people from that country as "subjects of the allied powers." To-day, 350,000 Canadians of Ukrainian origin beseech the Canadian parliament to hearken to the agonized appeal of 4,000,000 of their suffering and oppressed countrymen in Central Europe. Do not fail them in this the hour of their need. Show them that the great heart of the Canadian people goes out to them in this, their country's darkest hour. Tell them that the country that laid 60,000 of her best and bravest sons on the altar of sacrifice that one small country might be free, has a sympathy as deep as her mighty lakes, as wide as her noble prairies, as vast as her natural heritage; and that this appeal in the interest of justice and right shall not go unheeded by the representatives of the people of Canada.


Mr. L. P. BANCROFT (Selkirk):: I desire to say a few words in reference to this important resolution brought forward by the hon. member for Mackenzie (Mr. Campbell), who stated that it might be well for the people of Canada to cultivate the acquaintance of our Ukrainian settlers. We have in Canada to-day about 350,000 of these people who have been settled in the western part of the country for about twenty years. In that time they have developed perhaps more rapidly than any other non-English speaking class of immigrants who have come to this country. So great has been their development that today there are hundreds of their young men and women teaching English in our public schools in Manitoba. Quite a number of their women are graduate nurses, while there are several lawyers among them. You will find these people in the high schools and universities of western Canada. There are a large number of successful merchants among them carrying on business according to the standards that are recognized and pursued in this country. They also include a large body of farmers, and they are a people that lean naturally towards mixed farming. Possibly one reason for this is the fact that they produce large families and in this way provide that free labour without which mixed farming cannot be carried on in Canada. Recently they elected four of their nationality as members of the local legislature of Manitoba and these men hold their own with our own people very well. The young Ukrainian men and women who have grown up in this country in the last twenty years and who have been educated in our schools speak English as fluently and as correctly as our own people. In fact their whole record in Canada is one of which any people might be proud. Now,
it may be suggested that these people, now that they have made their homes in this country, should forget their troubles in the old land and settle down to business here. But we must remember that they have relatives back in their native country who are being persecuted and if they neglected to look after the welfare of their relatives in any part of the world, they would, I think, be neglecting one of the first duties of citizenship.
In presenting this resolution we are not asking that Canada should interfere in European questions. We are merely asking that Canada take an interest in these new Canadians and so help to make them better citizens, because I believe, Sir, that the best way to make an immigrant take an interest in his country is for the country to take an interest in him. In a word, we are merely asking the government to request the League of Nations to look fully into this question and see that justice is done in Eastern Galicia.


Mr. A. L. BEAUBIEN (Provencher):: I do not intend to speak at length on this resolution, Mr. Speaker, because the mover (Mr. Campbell) presented the case in a manner so complete and convincing that it was apparent he had made a study of it. I had the pleasure last 3?ear in this House to defend these people when they were being ridiculed by some hon. members for wearing she'epskin coats. Now I am here to urge on the government the desirability of making representations to the League of Nations so that these Ukrainians will be freed from further oppression at the hands of the Poles. I know very well these Ukrainians who. have made their homes in western Canada, and I can endorse everything that my hon. friend from Selkirk (Mr. Bancroft) has said about their good qualities as Canadian citizens. As he stated, they generally have large families, and if we had more of these people in the prairies there would be no need for the hon. Minister of the Interior (Mr. Stewart) to encourage child immigration from the British Isles. These people are working hard and making a success of their farms, although their land is more or less inferior in quality, but they are dogged and persevering and will stand the bumps and succeed where we would fail.
We are very proud of that British fair play which we hear so much about. Well, this is a good time to exercise it. When the friends and relatives of these citizens of Canada are being oppressed in Europe, it is the duty of the government to prove to them that we actually practise British fair play, that it is not a mere expression, but means something that can be invoked for the succour of the oppres-
West Ukrainian Republic

sed. Therefore I think this resolution should receive the unanimous support of this House and that the government should thereupon make representations to the League of Nations urging upon it the desirability and necessity of an early and final settlement of the Ukrainian boundaries, and so relieve the friends and relatives of our Ukrainian fellow citizens from the sufferings they are now enduring at the hands of Poland.


Mr. H. E. SPENCER (Battle River):: I wish to speak very briefly in suport of the resolution, Mr. Speaker. I happen to have a great many of these people in my constituency, and I can vouch for their good qualities-given a fair chance they are among the best immigrants we have and develop into very good Canadian citizens. I think we cannot do better than ask the government to bring the request of these people before the League of Nations, so that they may realize the value of their Canadian citizenship and its effectiveness in relieving the distress of their friends and relatives in the west Ukrainian Republic.


Mr. ROBERT FORKE (Brandon):: Mr. Speaker, it is a far cry from Canada to the Ukraine. However, I happen to have a certain number of Ukrainians in my constituency, and I feel great deal of interest in them for I find them to be admirable settlers who invariably develop into good Canadians.
But I am not exactly clear about the situation that is involved in this resolution. When we contemplate the troubled state of Europe and the chaotic conditions brought about by the warring and hatred that prevail there, we may be pardoned for wondering just exactly what can be done in the present situation. I have no doubt that the arrangement referred to was made by the League of Nations, and that it was agreed that the boundary line separating the new state from Poland should be definitely ascertained. But while the hon. gentlemen were discussing the resolution I had been thinking that perhaps some member of the government who understands the situation might explain it to us so that we could act intelligently. I repeat, I am not at all clear on the situation. Naturally we would all wish to see peace restored in Europe, and personally I desire to show every sympathy for the friends and relatives of our fellow citizens from the Ukraine, but until we know the situation it is difficult to act effectively. Perhaps we may get the required information from the government.


William Stevens Fielding: If there was any question as to the

character of these Ukrainian fellow citizens of ours in the West, I am sure we would all appreciate the information we have received from hon. members who have spoken in praise of them. I do not understand, however, that there is any such question.
I am inclined to think that the preamble of this resolution is based upon a misapprehension of one or two important points. It states that the integrity of the West Ukrainian Republic has been guaranteed by the League of Nations. I think that is a mistake. To the best of my knowledge and belief the Wes'tern Ukrainian Republic was never recognized by the League of Nations. I am afraid some of us will have to confess that our knowledge of eastern European politics is not sufficient to warrant us going very deeply into this question, but so far as we would appear to be justified in attempting to deal with it I would call my hon. friend's attention to the fact that that which he is asking to be done by this resolution has already been done. In the session of the second Assembly of 1921 the representative of Canada, the Hon. Mr. Doherty, introduced a resolution on the subject. Wisely, he did not attempt to decide the merits of the dispute. The Poles have always claimed that Eastern Galicia has been Polish for ages, and it is in their hands now under mandate. Of course, it is desirable that that condition should not remain, that the doubt should be removed and the status of Eastern Galicia determined. Mr. Doherty wisely did not attempt to say how the question should be determined, but he did say, in the name of Canada, that it should be settled. The League of Nations has no power to settle it. All the League can do is to express its opinion as to the desirability of settling this long-standing difficult question. The resolution proposed by Mr. Doherty was accepted.
At the recent sitting of the League of Nations, the third Assembly, attention was drawn to the fact that practically speaking the situation remained unchanged, Poland was still in command and the status of Eastern Galicia had not been determined. Thereupon the Canadian delegates again asked the League of Nations to re-affirm the resolution of the previous year. Mark you, Mr. Speaker, they did not undertake to settle the dispute between the Poles and the Ukrainians. They did, however, recognize that the delay was objectionable and that the matter should be settled, and thereupon a resolution was moved to renew that expression of opinion. I think my hon. friend read the resolution to which I refer, and therefore I need not read it again. Let me say that the resolution was

West Ukrainian Republic
referred to the committee for consideration, and my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Lapointe) had the honour of being the reporter to report to the League Assembly the conclusion reached. The resolution adopted under the circumstances I have described is as follows:
The Assembly of the League of Nations renews its wish, expressed in the resolution adopted by the second Assembly on September 27th, 1921, that the council of the league draw the attention of the Principal Allied and Associated Powers to the desirability of determining at an early date the status of Eastern Galicia.
That is exactly what my hon. friend is now asking us to do. The thing which he says we should represent to the League of Nations has already been brought before that body by Canada's delegates, who moved a resolution urging that the status of Eastern Galicia should be determined, and that resolution was adopted unanimously by the League Assembly. So everything that my hon. friend is asking has been done. I think that is a clear and simple statement of the case.


Hon.   S@: Mr. Speaker, I cannot claim that there are any Ukrainians in my constituency; I do not know whether there are Ukrainians in any of the constituencies represented by this group But the late government did not' have to have the question of the wrongs of the Ukrainians brought to its notice, or the wrongs of any other nations of Europe that required assistance; these things were looked after. As the Hon. Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) points out, attention was given to them at the earliest possible moment-in 1921. I want to congratulate the hon. Minister of Finance and his colleague in following the good example that was set by his predecessors; for the present administration did what had been done before-they submitted exactly the same resolutions. I only hope that in some way or other we shall be able to get order out of tho turmoil that prevails over there now. I do not know whether the present motion will do anything to assist in that respect; as the Minister of Finance says, what is now asked has already been done. But I am quite sure that the appeals of not only the Ukrainians, but any of the other nations that found themselves in a similar position- yes, the Armenians and many others-received a ready response from the former administration.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER:: If any hon.
gentleman desires to speak on this subject he should do so now, because when the mover of the resolution speaks his reply will close the debate.


Milton Neil Campbell: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the information that the Finance Minister (Mr. Fielding) has given us. I may say, however, that I was already aware of a good deal of it; in fact, most of it I have given here in speaking on the resolution. It is possible that the resolution is not quite correctly worded in its reference to the guaranteeing of the integrity of the state of West Ukraine. I understood, however, from the nature of its own constitution that the League of Nations practically guaranteed to stand for the self-determination of peoples, and that was really what I based my resolution on. I quite understand that action has been taken by the league in the matter, but I would remind hon. members about the scriptural proverb respecting the unjust judge and the poor widow. Nothing has resulted from these representations, and I would like to see some expression of opinion from this House on the matter. I appreciate and my constituents appreciate the action that has been taken by both the present and the late government in this connection. I say that I would like to have an expression of opinion from this House, but if the resolution is not in proper form of course I shall have to withdraw it. But possibly the Finance Minister could say just how it should be worded or whether I should withdraw it or not. I am quite willing to accede to his request in the matter.


Ernest Lapointe: I would ask the hon. member for Mackenzie (Mr. Campbell) to withdraw his resolution, in view of what my hon. friend the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) has said, and especially in view of the suggestion in the resolution that the independence of the so-called state of West Ukraine is guaranteed by the League of Nations. That state has never been recognized in fact. - The Ukrainians are asking that it should be so recognized. On the other hand, Poland asks that the Supreme Council of the Allied Powers should define what is the real status of Eastern Galicia. Both parties to the issue are asking for a settlement. Then, the final part of the resolution seems to be based on the assumption that it is for, the Council of the League of Nations to settle that question. The council cannot settle it. The Supreme Council of the Allied Powers have reserved to themselves by the Treaty of Saint Germain the right to determine and define the status of Eastern Galicia, either in the formation of an independent state or in its becoming part of Poland. The matter has not yet been determined. The result is that chaotic con-

Export of Electric Energy

ditions prevail there, and it is certainly desirable that a decision be arrived at and a settlement effected. That is what the representatives of Canada asked in 1921, as the exMinister of Finance (Sir Henry Drayton) has said, and that is what they asked last fall. So that Canada has already declared in favour of an early settlement by the only channel through which it can be done. I think, therefore, that the resolution should be withdrawn.


Milton Neil Campbell: I beg leave, then, Mr. Speaker, to withdraw the resolution.
Motion withdrawn.



EXPORTATION OF ELECTRICAL

Mr. HERMAS DESLAURIERS (St. Mary) moved:: That, in the opinion of this House, whereas the exportation to the United States of the electric energy of the water powers of Canada, promotes the progress of the United States to the detriment of Canada, it would be desirable that the government place a prohibitive duty on this anti-national commerce.
Mr. Speaker, this question of the exportation of electrical energy, a question which is occupying the minds of our friends the Americans, is one which, for various reasons, should be immediately looked into by the government. In the first place, we cannot get a supply of anthracite coal in any part of Canada; consequently we have to import our requirements from the United States, together with a considerable quantity of bituminous coal. In other words, we have a shortage of black coal and our neighbours to the south have a shortage of "white coal". It is stated in reports of American engineers that if the present rate of domestic consumption and export of United States coal is continued, the resources now available will be completely exhausted in about forty years. Moreover, it is the policy of all countries to prohibit or restrict the exportation of material which is vital to their own welfare, being needed either for motive power, for lighting or heating, or for other uses in industry. It is not only logical, therefore, but easily understood, that the United States, finding its supply of coal becoming exhausted, will sooner or later place an embargo on exports of coal in order to conserve it for the purposes of motive power, metallurgy, lighting and heating. If this action is taken Canada will be placed in a very critical position, and the situation will be intensified if our country has allowed our neighbours to succeed in obtaining control not only of coal in the United States but electric power in Canada as well. It is in the history of all nations that a government will find the

necessary information for its administration. History will reveal the events which marked the success or failures of governments, upon which should depend the decision of all legislative bodies.
In the years 1902 and 1903 the United States felt the effects of a coal strike which brought about a scarcity of the fuel, also an inferior quality of coal, and an exorbitant increase in its cost. Our neighbours suffered in consequence, and we in Canada, as the United States acted on the principle that charity begins at home, had our supply of anthracite very much limited; in fact, the scarcity and cost were so great that coal was considered rather as a luxury, and some people lest they should forget the crisis, had particles of anthracite encrusted in their rings. At that time those who were able to procure coal at all had to pay $30 and $35 a ton. Twenty years later, that is this year, another coal strike is declared in the United States in sympathy with Canadian miners, and the same difficult conditions confront us again. We have a scarcity of coal, with poor quality and high cost. The only difference this year is that legislators are advocating in parliament and in the press that an embargo be placed upon the export of coal. Who can tell what may happen to-morrow?
These actual facts and our past experience impose upon us the duty of considering as soon as possible the whole coal problem, for the present and the future of this country will depend on the control of our white coal both as regards motive power, lighting, heating, and industry generally. Let us remember that our neighbours, who possess a considerable quantity of phosphate of lime, upon the recommendation of Mr. James R. Garfield and the late President Roosevelt, one day without warning refused to export abroad this valuable fertilizer, reserving it entirely for American territory. Remembering that according to the reports of the National Commission of Conservation in the United States their coal mines will be exhausted in forty or fifty years, and when we hear some gentlemen like Mr. George Otis Smith, director of the Geological Department of the United States, saying that it is a menace to the country to export every year forty per cent of their coal, that this raw material should be preserved to the United States for the purpose of manufacturing and supplying all the nations of the world with the goods they are in need of, we may expect before a very long time-and there is a persistent rumour to this effect-that they will impose a partial if not a total restriction on the export of American coal.

Export of Electric Energy
It is true that the central part of Canada, richly endowed as it is with white coal, could look after the situation provided that her water powers were fully worked and the exportation of our electrical energy controlled. If we export electrical energy to our neighbours to the south, it should be on the basis of a mutual exchange of white coal for black coal, so that the future and the present interests of Canada will be properly protected. Our neighbours whose commercial sense is well known, have anticipated that problem, and that is the reason why a financial group has been formed with the object of monopolizing all the American water powers so that some day they will be able to impose a price in keeping with their greed, and dictate the modus vivendi, and the American people will be compelled to accept their conditions. According to Mr. Charles Edward Wright, Assistant Attorney General at Washington, a dozen small financial groups hold one-third of all the hydraulic power of the United States, that is,
6,300,000	horse power. They have in view the time when scarcity of coal will make its use prohibitive, owing to the high price for supplying motive power, lighting and heating, thus enabling them to ask of future generations such prices as they see fit.
The following will show' in what terms exPresident Roosevelt expressed himself on this subject:
The people of our country are threatened by a monopoly more powerful than has been ever seen, as it affects very closely their domestic a'hd industrial life. Our next generation will witness a shortage of those natural resources, petroleum and gas. The price of coal will be such that hydraulic power turned into electrical energy will, owing to its cost, become the prevailing factor for transport, for manufactures, for lighting and heating our towns. Our hydraulic power alone, entirely and judiciously employed, would be adequate for the present needs of transport, industries, municipalities and private individuals. The major portion of these powers is not developed and remains the national property. It would be madness to part, without conditions, with one of our greatest resources. If we become guilty of this crime, our children will be bound to pay an annual royalty on a capitalization fixed at the highest price that the trade will stand for. They will see themselves struggling with powerful sweaters entrenched behind the doctrine of discharged rights strengthened by all means of protection that money can buy and the cunning of corporations defended by legal men. These ogres of finance will have succeeded long before then to monopolise those resources so as to be able to dictate to the people the management of their affairs and their way of existence. Public opinion will be their least worry.
Even if these monopolists of hydraulic powers and their operations are so scornfully regarded in the United States, we Canadians should take measures to nullify their calculations in regard to using, for their own benefit, hydraulic powers in Canada.
42i
The case of the Cedars rapids worked up by the Aluminium Company of America, with a plant at Massena, New York, drawing 70,000 h.p. from the flanks of the St. Lawrence, is not an example to be followed; it is antinational. We have also to guard ourselves against our own groups of Canadian financiers who are seeking to forestall the establishment of our own hydraulic powers, having in view exportation to the United States of some of the electric energy for their exclusive gain, holding up the cost of electricity to a prohibitory price, and making ready to act the same part, when opportunity arises, as the American monopolist has done.
If I am well informed, as I believe I am, the Montreal Public Service Company, now the New England Company, intend to work the rapids of Carillon by exporting to Boston
100.000	h.p. for their exclusive gain. The Electric Development Company, under their license granted by the Department of the Interior, turn into the United States at a profit
35.000	kilowatts; the Ontario Power Company,
45.000	kilowatts; the Canadian Niagara Power Company, 55,000 kilowatts; or a total of 135,000 kilowatts, or approximately 181,000 h.p. We should see at work these groups of financiers who are attempting to appropriate to themselves the powers of the Long Sault, which are second to none on the St. Lawrence. It is important that the public should be advised of the danger of allowing these to fall into the hands of these monopolists of electric powers.
Mr. Gifford Pinchot expresses himself in this manner:
Whosoever possesses the motive power is master of the industries. Have you ever seen a few drops of oil scattered on water spreading until they form a continuous layer, able to calm immediately all surface agitation? Now is the time to discuss this question and to have it known, before the various interests concentrate and forestall all the nation's property. All those that are aware of the situation admit that the time for protesting is very short. If we do not take advantage of it to protect our interests, we will hear but too late that this gathering of interests will pay little attention to the common individuals whose undertakings will be opposed to theirs.
Let us take the cost of electricity in Montreal where the consumers are charged $128 for what actually cost the company $15, prohibiting practically the use of electricity for domestic purposes. This gives an idea of the consideration these monopolists of electric powers will have in future for the consumers.
In the event of a complete shortage of anthracite in the central portion of the Dominion, we must be prepared lest our neighbours to the south take advantage of the situation with an obvious financial object in view.
Export of Electric Energy

It is our duty not to permit our hydraulic power to pass, without conditions being laid down, into the hands of wealthy individuals. In connection with this, we should highly praise the policy of the province of Ontario in hydraulic matters, its pronounced policy being to keep for the state its natural wealth. We must always remember that our friends the Americans are actually the masters of the coal, that they have in their own territory white coal in considerable quantity, although insufficient, and we must rest assured that the very day they control our hydraulic powers our national future will have disappeared.
The electric power of the Cedars is laid out to actually produce 100,000 h.p. Its capacity is 56,000 ft. per second and they propose to increase it so as to obtain 180,000 h.p. If we figure that, in 1916, the Toronto Electric Power Co. with 50,000 h.p. were supplying electric lighting and motive power to
40.000	consumers, it is clear that to provide for the wants of the Toronto Tramways, the Toronto Electric Light Co. and the Toronto Electric Power Co., the power at the Cedars would be an essential source of electric power at low cost. There is no doubt that this source of electric power at the Cedars could supply on reasonable terms the electricity to a manufacturing city of 300,000 inhabitants; in other words it could supply the motive power and lighting to 35 Canadian towns of 10,000 population and would fill about one third of the orders that are actually received by the Hydro-electric from 100- municipalities and
100.000	consumers. It is reasonable to believe that if the Aluminium Company of America had been refused electric power at the Cedars, they would have settled on Canadian territory instead of at Massena, New York.
The United States are therefore firmly convinced, and they are very much concerned over the fact, that, assuming their engineers' reports to be well founded, if they do not take possession of these water powers immediately, Canada will later acquire them under the treaty. In doing so Canada would create for herself a great number of industries which otherwise would have been established in the United States.
The Chief Engineer of the United States, Lieutenant Colonel J. C. Sanford, declares without preamble that if it is impossible to have the electric power produced in Canada passed to the American side, the American manufacturers will be drawn to Canada, where they will be able to obtain for their industries electric power at low rates. They feel already, he states, the effect of the restriction imposed on the importation of this power. The manu-
[Mr. Deolauriers.l
facturers who buy supplementary motive power in Niagara settle in Canada. Canada exports electricity from New Brunswick to the state of Maine, Quebec to New York, Ontario to the state of New York and Minnesota, British Columbia exports to the state of Washington. It is the duty of the parliament of Canada to make, for the present and future, regulations for the exportation of our electric power, essential for the welfare of the country, on a basis that will maintain with our neighbors friendly relations.
Although my resolution involves a radical embargo on the exportation of all horse-power, it does not cover all my thought. I would, though, keep to the letter of my text, if for reasons which are impossible to foresee, we could not agree without either side, the American government or the Canadian government giving way. If we take into consideration the generous way in which the Americans treated Canada when in 1902-3 a strike rendered their coal supply insufficient, it is reasonable to think that for the present and in the future Canada could exchange, on an equal basis, white coal for black coal as it has done in other natural and manufactured products, thus promoting cordial feeling and*the best interests of the two countries.
Yet I strongly share the opinion of the men I have quoted with regard to the American monopolists of hydraulic powers who, for their own personal gain, endeavour to forestall all there is of potential electric energy, as well in the United States as in Canada, with a tendency towards constituting themselves the kings of the coal and of the hydraulic powers, and sooner than we think, compelling the American and Canadian peoples to submit to their demands.
It is Canada's interest to oppose the groups of Canadian individuals who seek to forestall our water powers, taking first those which are the easiest to. develop, with a view of trading with our neighbours. They will endeavour to convert this electric power to their exclusive use, thus preventing the sale of electricity at as low a price as it is being sold at present. The result will likely be serious vexation in the future, when possibly circumstances will require the entire consolidation of all our hydraulic powers to meet the situation with regard to motive power, lighting and heating.
I believe, therefore, that it is the duty of the government to consider at once very seriously this problem of to-day and of to-morrow, and to amend and apply more vigorously than heretofore the federal act 6-7 Edward VII Chap. 16, which provides for the regulation of the exportation of electric energy and cer-

Export of Electric Energy
tain liquids and gases, and authorizes the government to impose a duty of $10 per horse power sent abroad. This is imperative unless a satisfactory agreement is reached safeguarding the present and future interests of Canada, and assisting on the scrupulous observance of the conditions and terms defined in the licenses, which are supposed to be obligatory in all cases of exportation of electric power. This would invite foreign capital and would be an incentive to the establishment of industries on Canadian soil, thus founding and developing towns like Shawinigan, Grand Mere, Three Rivers, and La Tuque.
It is only fair, however, to impose a tax on a business that pays 100 per cent profit. Such a tax would reducfe the national debt to that extent and lower the rate of taxation on the necessaries of life. It is not patriotic to allow our neighbours to acquire enormous quantities of unmanufactured pulpwood, as stressed by the Hon. Mr. Bugeaud in the Quebec House of Assembly. True it is that the practice is forbidden by a Quebec law, but Quebec cannot stop them from taking the unmanufactured pulpwood oyer the border into New Brunswick. It is, then, the duty of the federal government to impose a tax on every car of unmanufactured pulpwood, no matter what route of conveyance into foreign territory is followed. Thus we shall compel the establishment 'of the industry at home, to develop business generally and improve our means of transportation. Let us be vigilant and practise economy, and let us on every occasion show in a practical way that we love our country above all.


Mr. E. A. LAPIERRE (Nipissing):: During the last session of parliament, when the International Joint Commission was being discussed, I opposed any joint ownership in the development of any of our water-powers. To-day, after one year's observation, I am confirmed in the view I expressed on that occasion. We in Canada to-day possess the largest amount of undeveloped hydraulic power on the American continent, and as was stated by the hon. member for St. Mary (Mr. Deslauriers), its value is increasing every moment. There is no doubt in the minds of those who have followed the developments in the matter of hydraulic power that there exists at the present time in the United States a powerful ring which is trying to get control of the waterpowers of the St. Lawrence The same group which fifteen years ago tried to grab that power financed the propaganda which advocated the deepening of the St. Lawrence waterways in order to gain the control of this hydraulic power. Having failed to obtain control of this power this
ring turned to the state of Maine and endeavoured to get * possession of the undeveloped water power in that state. In his-'inaugural address to the state legislature on January 5th, Governor Percival P. Baxter is reported as having said:
It is seriously urged, that the time has arrived for Maine to allow its hydro-electricity energy to be transmitted to the other New England states. Those in favor of a change in our policy say that great power developments are about to be undertaken in Canada, the purpose of which is to bring hydro-electricity from that country to Massachusetts and other New England states that are in need of it. I am told that those behind this project prefer to come to Maine and develop some of our great power locations provided they can take the power outside the state where there is a market for it, and those gentlemen say that unless this is permitted the Canadians will build their lines into New England, and once this is done Maine's power will remain idle for a long time to come.
I believe the day will come when Maine will use and need all its water power resources, and once they are taken from us, no matter how we may strive to protect the state's interests, there is grave doubt about our ever being able to recall them. If Canadian power is brought to New England the pressure that is now exerted upon our state to modify its non-transmission policy will be relieved and Maine's water powers will be left for Maine people. All the water power men of Maine are not in accord on this question and some of those who always have favoured taking power out of the state have changed their views and now believe that Maine's policy is sound.
Every word that was uttered by Governor Pereival P. Baxter applies more forcibly to the conditions in Canada to-day than they ever did. It is certain that within a short distance of the St. Lawrence in eastern Ontario and in the province of Quebec we have what is to-day the most desirable area for manufacturing that remains on the continent. There is no doubt in the minds of those who are following the tendencies of economic developments that the industries of the future are going to seek low-price hydraulic power.
Roger W. Babson in a report he lately made after a survey of the conditions in the United States has this to say about his visit to the Mohawk valley.
Every time that I visit the Mohawk valley of New York state I am more impressed with its great activity and its potential resources. I should not be surprised to see the country, lying between Albany and Buffalo, traversed by the New York, Central, the West Shore and the Erie canal, become the greatest manufacturing section of the United States. Its climate is ideal; its labour conditions are good; it abounds in agricultural resources, thus assuring a reasonable cost of living; the greatest bituminous coal mines of the country are located to the south and the greatest number of available water powers are located to the north. These conditions are certainly ideal for general manufacturing of all kinds. This valley is close not only to our great American cities, but it is well located for export trade.
Those conditions occur much more favourably on the Canadian side. Of all the waterpower that can be developed between lake
Export of Electric Energy


Henry Lumley Drayton: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the thanks of the House are due to the hon. gentleman (Mr. Deslauriers) for bringing this very important question to our notice. I do not know that it is possible for the government at the present moment to give immediate effect to the resolution, but it is perfectly clear that not only the government can, but should, see to it that no further licenses are granted for the export of electric power. We are exporting a good deal of electric power, as the hon. member has shown. It is true that this export has gone on for some considerable length of time, and it is also true that claims are set up to rights under former permits. It is also true that any rights or any permits granted by the Dominion may at any time be cancelled, and that the amount which may be exported is to be fixed each year and new application made for it.
I appreciate the troubles that a government would be in if the motion were passed in its present form. We must not forget that while we have our difficulties, our good neighbours to the south also have theirs. In that connection I noticed the other day that some gentleman in the United States said that coal shipments to Canada should be stopped. He suggested that it was idle to talk about the Canadians stopping the export of electricity, because it had been coming into the United States for so long and because so many im-

Export of Electric Energy
portant public utilities and large firms were dependent upon that source for their supply of power. Well, that is all true, but we have been getting coal from the United States much longer than the United States has been getting electricity from us, and while a great deal of inconvenience would no doubt be caused if the export of electricity from Canada to the United States was stopped, there would be great suffering in this country if no further shipments of coal were received here from the United States. We have a pretty fair modus vivendi at the present time. I do not remember the exact figures, but the amount of electricity that we export to the United States is the equivalent of a very large amount of coal. I fancy that the government should be satisfied to let things stand just about as they are, expecting that a proper supply of coal will continue to come in from the United States and on the other hand allowing a modicum of electricity to go there as at present.
But I sincerely hope the government will see to it that the amount of electricity exported is not increased. It has been shown that there is a power shortage. If we had been told a few years ago, just after the close of the war, that there was danger of a power shortage, everyone would have laughed, but I can tell the House that so marked is the present shortage *-and not only in the places referred to by the mover of the resolution-that already in Toronto they are using steam to look after their-peaks. There is already a necessity for further electrical development. I am confident that my good friend the Minister of Defence (Mr. Graham) will find in his own district a very marked shortage of power in the relatively near future. We have shortages in nearly all the different districts in Ontario from which power is supplied-*'perhaps not marked in themselves, but decidedly apparent in relation to any reasonable curve upon which the output can fairly be estimated. Unless something is done within the next two or three years it will be impossible to expand business; power will be nowhere available in the province. L urge upon the government, therefore, that no further permits be issued for the export of electricity.
The government should also consider the question of the development of water powers in the streams controlled by the Dominion. They will require no delegations to come here to tell them that that is necessary; if they will take the reports of their own officers they will see that development is required on the St. Lawrence, and that unless that development is soon made, we shall suffer severely.
Speaking generally, you cannot contract for power to-day in Ontario; there is no place in the whole Niagara district where you can at the present time arrange a firm contract for any considerable amount of power for the purposes of industry. I do not think the commission have it; I am quite sure they could not give it for any considerable length of time. There must be development in the eastern end of Ontario, with high voltages, because a voltage of 222,000 can be handled over long distances and with practically no loss.
I was surprised to hear the mover of the resolution say that the cost of power in Montreal was $128 per horse-power. Well, that is a tremendous cost; I should not have thought it was anything like that. It is true that the cost of electricity is mounting up, in the way that everything else is mounting up, but not for the same reason. The real reason is the shortage-and that in a country of infinite power possibilities. In the Niagara district you can get water power at from $17 to $45, so that I think the figure given by the hon. member is a little out of line.
The mover of the resolution stated that a company was planning to develop 100,000 horse-power in the neighbourhood of Montreal, and export it, I think he said, to Boston. I would like to know from the government whether any applications have been made for leave so to export. The Minister of Defence shakes his head. If there is any such application, Mr. Speaker, I sincerely hope that a refusal will be given. The House might well ask for a statement from the government as to its position in this matter. In the first place, is the government looking forward to a development of the power that we now have? It ought to be developed by the state; what is the government's attitude? And on the question of export, do they take the position that further amounts should be allowed to go out, or not?
* Hon. J. A. ROBB (Minister of Trade and Commerce): Mr. Speaker, the resolution presented by the hon. member for St. Mary (Mr. Deslauriers) and the speech he made in support of it is evidence of the fact that he is a student of this question. We all remember the veiy interesting speech he made last year on the electrification of railways. I would like to congratulate him-and I am sure it would be the wish of the House to do so-upon making such an excellent speech in the English language. I believe this is his maiden speech in the House in English.
We all recognize that the prosperity of England was due in large measure to the coal of England, and what black coal was to Eng-

Export of Electric Energy
land the white coal that we possess through our water-powers should be to Canada. All the provinces of Canada with perhaps one exception have some water-power and the three provinces with the largest amount .are Quebec, Ontario and British Columbia, but there is an immense amount of water-power throughout the country still undeveloped. The last speaker referred to the shortage of power that has developed, and within recent years, I gathered from his speech. That to me is an indication that there must have been a considerable development of activity in manufacturing in this country within the past few years.
The government have nothing before them to show that any person is contemplating developing immense quantities of electrical power for exportation. As was so well said by my hon. friend from West York (Sir Henry Drayton) the export of electrical power is licensed and controlled by the department, and the license must be renewed from year to year. I can assure my hon. friend the government is fully alive to the interests of Canada and if it is demonstrated that the power is required in Canada a license for its export would be very carefully considered before it was granted.
I would also point out to my hon. friend, who spoke in a rather complaining mood as if the government were giving away something they had no right to give away, that one of the first acts of the latfe government when it came into power in 1912 was to license the export of power, which my hon. friend particularly complains of to-day, from Cedar Rapids to Massena. That contract was given by the friends of my hon. friend, and this government to-day is only carrying out the contracts that we found on file when we came into office.
SIR HENRY DRAYTON: Stick to it.


James Alexander Robb: In so far as it is good for the country, we will try to do that. The records show that there is no great scarcity of power in this country yet. If the power is not developed, there is ample power in this country to be developed. Water-power is not like pulp-wood or coal or some other commodity that you can store up and keep until it is required. If you do not harness water-power it simply flows on gently to the sea and is lost, so any revenue you may get from it in the meantime is revenue gained for the country. I submit that it is not sound economics to hold up the development of a product that is being wasted when it can be developed and sold at a profit to Canadians. It is questionable whether the government would be justified in placing, as some hon. gentlemen have suggested, an embargo on the export of power that might lead 
to very serious complications. Our friends to the south might say: If you are going to put an embargo on water-power, we will put an embargo on coal. Or they might put an em-embargo on some other product that was needed in this country. Embargoes are not good at any time. Control is a good thing, and so far as control is concerned, I repeat that the government will endeavour to preserve the interests of the Canadian people.
As I said in my opening remarks, what coal is to England water-power should be to Canada, and happily we have no scarcity of water-power in our country. The records show that there are still available undeveloped water-powers in Canada aggregating over 15,000,000 horse-power. The water-powers developed in Canada aggregate 2,969,659 horsepower, or about seven per cent of the total water-power available. Then as to exports, the total electrical energy exported to the United States during the calendar year 1922 was a little short of 150,000 horse-power, 149,431 to be exact.
It might interest the House to know-and this will particularly interest my hon. friend from West York, where this electrical energy is exported from-we are told that there is a shortage of electrical power in the province of Ontario, and that province rather prides itself on its control of electrical power for the use of its own people. The records show that the Ontario Power Company of Niagara Falls exported 45,000 kilowatts; the Canadian Niagara Power Company of Niagara Falls, 45,000 kilowatts; the Electrical Development Company, Limited, of Niagara Falls, 35,000 kilowatts; the International Railway Company of Niagara Falls, 200 kilowatts; the Ontario and Minnesota Power Company, Fort Frances, Ontario, 2,611 kilowatts. Last year about March the Fort Frances Company had exceeded their license, and they were rounded up by the department and compelled not to exceed the limit that was allowed to them 'under the license which we foun,d in operation when we came into office.
Sir HENRYr DRAYTON: With reference to the minister's remarks on, Ontario, which seems to be a sore subject with him, does he not know that that 45,000 kilowatts which he quite properly points out as being exported by the Ontario Power Company, was a matter of contract originally, before we had anything to do with license? Does he not also know, in connection with the Niagara Company, that before we started to license, the whole of that Niagara Company was put in with American capital with the idea of developing power for the American market?

Export of Electric Energy


James Alexander Robb: I am not offering any observations on that, but am simply pointing out where the power is being exported from. From New Brunswick 2,500 kilowatts was exported by the Maine and New Brunswick Electric Power Company; from the province of Quebec 100 kilowatts by the Sherbrooks Railway and Power Companny; 75,000 kilowatts by the Cedar Rapids Manufacturing and Power Company, Soulanges; from British Columbia 10,000 by the Western Canada Power Company, Stave Lake; 1,500 kilowatts by the West Kootenay Power and Light Company, Ross-land; 5,000 kilowatts by the British Columbia Electrical Railway Company, Vancouver; and
28,000	kilowatts by the Bridge River Power Company of Vancouver, making a total of 44,500 kilowatts exported from British Columbia. So these three provinces, Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia, which have the largest water-powers, are also the largest exporters of power, and the largest exporter is the province of Ontario.
My hon. friend a few moments ago referred to the moving of the cotton mills from the New England states to down south because of the water-power. I am not prepared to challenge that statement. Water-power may have been the consideration, but I would point out that one of the greatest costs in the manufacture of cotton is labour, and the information I had was that the cotton mills were moving to the South because of the much cheaper labour costs there, and also because they would save the haul on the raw cotton and on part of the finished cotton down.
The hon. member for St. Mary (Mr. Des-lauriers) having presented this resolution and debated it most intelligently, having been supported by the hon. member for Nipissing (Mr. Lapierre) and the hon. member for West York (Sir Henry Drayton), it seems to me that, in the best interest of the country, he might well withdraw the resolution. I imagine that he has no desire to press it to a conclusion. The government will keep before them the observations he has made; and may I repeat again, the government, always alive to the interests of this country, will see to it that the licensing of the export of electrical power will be properly controlled and the interests of the people of Canada safeguarded?


Henry Lumley Drayton: Allow me to point out to the minister that he has not answered the question I put, namely, whether the government were considering or had yet started to consider the utilization of water-powers over which they had jurisdiction. I now have in
mind the Ontario waterpowers, like the water-powers at Morrisburg, where we have a shortage. [DOT]


James Alexander Robb: I should like to point out to my hon. friend that the provinces claim the right to develop water-powers, and we have no ambition to get into a controversy with our good friends from Ontario. If any person is prepared to submit a proposition to the.different departments for the development of waterpower, I am sure such a proposition will receive every consideration.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I understand, then, the question of development at Morrisburg would be entirely one for Ontario.


James Alexander Robb: I did not say tl^at. So far as I know, no proposition is before the govern^ ment.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I certainly understood the minister to say that it was for Ontario.


George Perry Graham: Mr. Speaker, the question of
power development is, of course, a live one. Any person who has read the Toronto press during the last two weeks will understand that Ontario distinctly claims the ownership of waterpowers in the St. Lawrence. Whatever the Dominion might do in the development of waterpower would be incidental. The federal authority has a right only to deal with navigation. In the Trent canal, the Trent system, the development of water-power was incidental to the improvement of navigation by deepening the canal, and a good deal of litigation took place, in which, I think, the federal authorities won out on account of the legal situation concerning much of the property along the Trent. I know I was interested in that, and our legal representatives, I think, went back a hundred years to get the title cleared of some of the properties along the Trent.
As to the St. Lawrence development, when that takes place, if it does, it will probably be of an international character, and several interests would have to be considered, first, the province of Ontario which claims ownership of the water, and, I think, with some reason. The state of New York is interested as is the province of Ontario. The federal government of the United States is interested, this being an international proposition. The federal government of Canada is likewise interested, this being an international proposition; but, as I understand the matter, whatever the federal government of Canada might do under the circumstances would be in refer-
Civil Service Act

ence to improvement of navigation, and the handling of water-powers would be in the hands of the province of Ontario.


Hermas Deslauriers: On the request of the minister I withdraw my resolution.
Motion withdrawn.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS -FINANCIAL STATEMENTS

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon.   S@: I think I should put a question to the Acting Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Graham). I notice in the public press, that there has been a somewhat serious conflict between Sir Henry Thornton and the Board of Railway Commissioners as to the meaning of the railway figures. The question I want to put is whether he has been able to find out who is right.


George Perry Graham: I will endeavour to make the right statement when we come to discuss the railway estimates.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I should have thought my hon. friend would have given me that to-night.
On motion of Mr. Graham the House adjourned at 10.50 p.m.
Tuesday, February 27, 1923