1923-06-01

[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES STEWART (Minister of the Interior) moved that the House to-morrow go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
Resolved, that it is expedient to amend The Dominion Lands Act, chapter twenty of the Statutes of 1908, and to provide that the original valuation of the Homestead Inspector may be revised, if necessary; that authority be given for the granting of second homesteads to settlers within a definite district covering the southern portions of the province of Saskatchewan and Alberta; that further provisions regarding the issue of patents in the event of the death or insanity of the entrant, and respecting sections reserved for school lands, and permits to cut timber on Dominion lands, be enacted; and that the Governor in Council may make grants not exceeding in any case the sum of two hundred and forty dollars in cash in satisfaction of claims of half-breeds arising out of the extinguishment of the Indian title.
He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been informed of the subject mat-

Pension Board
ter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the House.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals): Mr. Speaker, with the consent of the House I move to return to the order of motions.
Mr. SPEAKER:: By unanimous consent.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Mr. GRAHAM:: I wish to lay on the Table of the House a return to an order moved for by the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens)-earning and expenditure of vessels of the Canadian Government Marine; also a return moved for by the hon. member for North Toronto (Mr. Church) concerning the Canadian Government Merchant Marine; also a return moved for by the hon. member for North Toronto with regard to the sale of the Toronto Suburban railway; also a return moved for by the hon. member for North Toronto concerning the purchase of property by the Canadian National railways at the corner of King and Yonge streets, Toronto.



REDISTRIBUTION

[Stage Direction]
Hon. E. M. MACDONALD (Pictou, Acting Minister of National Defence) presented the second report of the Redistribution committee as follows:
The special committee to whom was referred bill No. 15, an Act to readjust the representation of the House of Commons, beg leave to present the following as its second report:
Your committee, in accordance with the resolution adopted at their meeting of the 31st May, ask that it be given leave to have its proceedings printed from day to day for the use of members of the committee and of the House when deemed advisable.
All of which is respectfully submitted.
Mr. MACDONALD (Pictou) moved that the report be concurred in.
Hewitt Bostock: I do not see in the motion any request that the reports be printed. The motion is only to concur in the report.


Right Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN (Leader of the Opposition):: As I understand it, the report recommends that the committee be allowed to print its own proceedings as and when it, the committee, desires, That being the case I take no objection.


Hewitt Bostock: I understand it is in conformity with the report brought down.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Mr. W. F. CARROLL (Cape Breton South and Richmond):: I wish to give notice that on Tuesday next I shall move the second reading of bill-


Hewitt Bostock: The hon. member must give notice in writing of his motion, or wait until we reach the Orders of the Day.



HARBOUR OF THREE RIVERS

[Stage Direction]
Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) moved that the House to-morrow go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
Resolved, that it is expedient to bring in a measure to make provision for the improvement and management of the Harbour of Three Rivers, in the province of Quebec, and to provide:
1.	That the Commissioners appointed under this act shall be incorporated under the name of the "Three Rivers Harbour Commissioners".
2.	That boundaries of the harbour be defined; harbour commissioners and a harbour master, a deputy harbour master and other officers be appointed; and rules and regulations, and a tariff of rates and dues be made.
3.	That the jurisdiction of the commissioners be defined, as well as their powers as to expropriation of lands and the making of by-laws, the collection of rents, and the borrowing of money.
4.	That the commissioners shall expend the moneys collected, after payment of the salary of the harbour master and the necessary expenses of maintenance of the harbour, in improving the harbour and its appurtenances, according to plans to be approved by the minister.
5.	That regulations as to seizures, penalties, the application of the same, and the general administration of the harbour be established.
He said: His Excellency the Governor General having been informed of the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the consideration of the House.
Motion agreed to.
PENSION BOARD	' '
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. L. H. MARTELL (Hants):: I should like to draw the attention of the government to a despatch which appears in the Ottawa Evening Journal of May 31st, 1923, which reads as follows:
Would remove Pension Board
Victoria, B.C., May 30.-A resolution moved by Rt. Rev. Dr. Schofield, Bishop of Columbia, and seconded by Alderman E. W. Woodward, secretary of the Trades and Labor Council, calling upon the Dominion government to remove the members of the Canadian Pension Board, was endorsed last night at a meeting of 300 citizens. H. D. Twigg, commandant of the Canadian Legion hpre, quoted individual cases of alleged harsh treatment by the board, and reviewed the recent report of the Royal Commission which recently investigated the acts of that body.
Pensions Commission

Now, Mr. Speaker, with reference to my question, I might say that I have the honour to be personally acquainted with the right reverend Dr. Schofield, who is a graduate of my own alma mater and for years was rector of Christ Church in the town of Sydney, and bishop of the Anglican church, or the Church of England, to which I have the honour to belong-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order, order.


Hewitt Bostock: ' I ask the hon. member not to comment, but to simply put his question.


Lewis Herbert Martell: It is probably necessary for me to preface my remarks. Of course now I cannot do it. I have every respect for Bishop Schofield's opinion, and I want to say for the honour of the Anglican church in the province of Nova Scotia that we represent one-fourth of the population of the province-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order, order.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Is it the intention of the government to ignore a resolution moved by a Church of England minister in the Dominion of Canada?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: The government will be pleased to take this resolution under consideration.



CANADA COLONIZATION ASSOCIATION

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. J. S. WOODSWORTH (Centre Winnipeg) :: I have a question on the order paper with reference to the reorganization of the Canada Colonization Association. An article in the press states that the Canadian National Railway Company, as well as the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, will be represented in the new association, and that each of these companies will make a grant of some $100,000 annually for a period of five years. I would like to know whether this matter has come to the knowledge of the government, and whether the government approves of representation of the Canadian National on such a board, and of the grant to be made by the Canadian National Railway to an outside organization?
Hon. CHARLES STEWART (Argenteuil), (Minister of the Interior): I have seen the despatch, and have discussed the matter of the proposed co-operation of the two railway companies in immigration work. The matters have been discussed informally between our department and the railway company, to pre-

vent overlapping in continental work, in the Scandinavian countries particularly, and work in Great Britain. We have been discussing it for some considerable time. The final meeting with respect to this matter will take place early this month, but no definite arrangement up to date has been arrived at. With respect to the Canada Colonization Association, I understand representations have been made on behalf of the proposed organization by Mr. Brown, the vice-president, but I cannot say how far these negotiations have gone at the moment. However, the moment negotiations are completed with respect to the other matter, as well as with respect to this question, I will be prepared to give the House full information.



ROYAL COMMISSION ON PENSIONS

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. R. J. MANION (Fort William and Rainy River):: Can the Minister of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment tell us whether it is his intention to bring in the proposed amendment to the Pensions Act, in compliance with the report of the Ralston commission?


Hon. H. S. BELAND (Minister of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment):: The resolution with respect to this matter is on the order paper. The matter cannot be dealt with at all events before next Tuesday, as the House will adjourn till that date. It will be taken up next week.


Robert James Manion: Will the minister be so good as to inform the House two or three days in advance?-because there are very important changes and many hon. members wish to take part in the discussion.


Henri Sévérin Béland: The resolution will be dealt with, of course, in the first place in Committee of the Whole, and the bill should be introduced three or four days later. Ample notice will be given to hon. members in regard to the matter. The bill will be more extensive than the resolution.


Robert James Manion: It is the desire, I am sure, of the minister to bring in this bill at the earliest possible moment, because it is a long time since the report was sent in, and there is a good deal of agitation among the soldiers asking for it to be dealt with as soon as possible. The report says that injustices have been done, and that they should be corrected as soon as possible.


Henri Sévérin Béland: We have expressed our intention of dealing with the matter.


Robert James Manion: Intention-yes.

Relations with Russia


Henri Sévérin Béland: And the resolution is on the order paper.


Hewitt Bostock: Perhaps the hon. member, to save time, would like to move his resolution now.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Yes. In connection with this resolution, I beg to say that His Excellency having been informed of the subject matter contained therein has been pleased to commend it to the attention of the House.
I move that the House to-morrow go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
Resolved, that it is expedient to amend the Pension Act, chapter 43 of the statutes of 1919, and the amending Acts, and to provide,-
1.	That enactments be made respecting pensions for military services rendered during the war and after the war, which shall be made retroactive to the first day of September, 1919, and all cases in which pension has been refused, reduced, discontinued or underrated by reason of the fact that the proposed legislation was not included in the Pension Act shall be subject to review by the Board of Pension Commissioners, and on such review pension shall be granted, increased or continued as from the date or dates it would have been granted, increased or continued had such proposed legislation been in force when such refusal, reduction or discontinuance or underrating was made effective.
2.	That the Governor in Council on the recommendation of the Minister of Justice may appoint a District Review Board for each of the nine districts of the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment, and a Federal Appeal Board for Canada, to review appeals from decisions of the Board of Pension Commissioners; and that provision be made for the tenure of office and qualifications of the members of such Boards, and for the payment of their remuneration or salaries out of any unappropriated moneys of the Consolidated Revenue Fund.
3.	That the Governor in Council may make such rules and regulations as are deemed necessary to carry out and enforce the provisions of the proposed legislation.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Mr. SHAW:: Is it proposed to publish the final report of the Ralston commission for the benefit of the members?


Henri Sévérin Béland: The final report is not in yet. My hon. friend, I assume, refers to the second report.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: Yes.


Henri Sévérin Béland: The motion was carried in this House some ten days ago calling for the printing of five hundred copies in English and two hundred copies in French. I am not aware whether it is printed or not, but I suppose if it is printed it will be distributed at an early date.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
James Shaver Woodsworth: Mr. Speaker according to an English
despatch, a very serious view is taken of the developments which have occurred during the last few days in the negotiations between Lord Curzon and the Soviet.


Hewitt Bostock: I must draw attention to, the fact that the hon. member has already spoken on the Orders of the Day.


James Shaver Woodsworth: It is another question.


Hewitt Bostock: It can be done with the consent of the House, but it is not usual for an hon. member to speak twice on the Orders of the Day.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Perhaps I might ask a question. The papers would indicate that a situation is developing in the negotiations between Lord Curzon and the Soviet Republic of a rather serious character.


Hewitt Bostock: I think the hon. member might well afford to wait for another sitting of the House. I would ask him to put a question regularly on the order paper. He has already put a question on the Orders of the Day being called. The practice is that only one question can be put if it is a matter of public importance. More than one question, according to the authorities, can be put by the leaders of the parties in the House. I must live up to the traditions of parliament.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I do not exactly
claim that we are on all-fours with other parties in this House; but there are two of us here who are not able to speak through any other leaders, and I think we have a right to speak in this way. I submit to the ruling of the Chair: we do not press that viewpoint; but it seems to me in keeping with the best practice in the British House, that a member can ask more than one question.


Hewitt Bostock: This question has been
dealt with on many occasions during this parliament and before. If the hon. member will refer to Bourinot, he will see that on questions before the Orders of the Day are called, only questions of public importance can be raised in order to elicit an answer from the government. Bourinot says that those questions must be distinctly on matters of public importance, and one member should speak only once, otherwise the sittings would be taken up with questions the whole afternoon and the whole evening. Of course, the hon. gentleman has just called to my attention the fact that there is a fourth party, and on that consideration I will allow the question. I regret that I had ignored that fact.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Mr. Speaker is very gracious. I think this is a matter of public
Retirement Act

importance. For the last few weeks we have heard these rumours and, indeed have seen these despatches, as to negotiations being in progress. As I understand the matter, the government is kept informed from day to day of what is proceeding, and in view of the importance of the question, we might well have a statement from the government as to the exact situation, as to how these negotiations have been carried on, and whether there is any danger that there may come a rupture between these two great countries.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: With respect to the particular matter referred to by my hon. friend, I might say that such information as the government receives on European affairs is generally received in advance by the press. There is nothing that has been received within the last day or two which would throw any additional light on what has appeared in the press. The rumours are similar to rumours that have appeared from time to time regarding European transactions. I think we may assume that matters are unsettled, but beyond that the government has' no information.



DAIRY ACT, 1914, AMENDMENT

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
William F. Carroll: I should have given notice
of this before, but I wish now to give notice-


Hewitt Bostock: In writing?


William F. Carroll: No, as a matter of record: That on Tuesday next, at three o'clock or as shortly thereafter as I shall be given the privilege, I shall move the second reading of Bill No. 186, to amend the Dairy Industry Act, 1914.



OLEOMARGARINE

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. GEORGE BLACK (Yukon):: I should like to call the attention of the government to the fact that members of the House have been circularized with material calculated to prejudice them against the manufacture in and importation into this country of oleomargarine. The communication, except that it has been sent out in an envelope stamped with the stamp of the Department of Agriculture, is anonymous. Is it the government's policy to approve a campaign of that sort, and does the government intend to oppose legislation authorizing the manufacture and importation of oleomargarine?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: As to approving any campaign of the sort, I should say that the government would not.



PUBLIC SERVICE RETIREMENT ACT

[Stage Direction]
Hon. W. S. FIELDING (Minister of Finance) moved that the House go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution :
Resolved, that it is expedient to extend for one year the operation, of the Public Service Retirement Act, chapter 67 of the statutes of 1920, as amended by chapter 49 of the statutes of 1921, and by chapter 39 of the statutes of 1922.
Motion agreed to and the House went into committee, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
Mr. FIELDING:: This is a resolution which will hardly provoke any dissent. There are from time to time questions raised whether we should have a general superannuation act. Reserving that for future consideration, I think we all agree that what is commonly called the Calder Act, taking the name of the hon. gentleman who introduced it some years ago, and which expires the 31st July, should be extended for a further year, giving the government an opportunity to consider the advisability of bringing down a general superannuation bill.


Arthur Meighen: I thoroughly agree with the minister as to the value of this ^ct. It is one of many acts which received a great deal of criticism, but which were really necessary. Can the minister give us information as to the number of men and women employees who were retired under the act during the past fiscal year?


William Stevens Fielding: I have not the information at hand, but I shall be glad to give it on the third reading of the bill.


Arthur Meighen: Perhaps the minister will give a statement with the names and the amounts allowed. The act, of course, will speak for itself as to what principle applies,


William Stevens Fielding: The names will be very numerous. They run into hundreds.


Arthur Meighen: In one year?


William Stevens Fielding: I will not say, in one year.


Arthur Meighen: I asked just for one year.


William Stevens Fielding: I will get what information I can and give it on the third reading.


Arthur Meighen: I do not think there would be more than a few. Has the government considered the wisdom of simply extending the act?


William Stevens Fielding: Generally?


Arthur Meighen: Yes, and then when a superannuation bill comes down, it may contain a clause for the 'repeal of this act. I

St. John and Quebec Railway
must say that I really never understood the idea of extending this act from year to year.
I know this was done before, but just why it was done I do not know.


William Stevens Fielding: There has always been in the minds of some ministers, probably of both governments, of introducing a general superannuation bill. I must not speak for my colleagues, but I have repeatedly said that there should be such a bill. My hope is that by another session we may agree upon such a bill, although I do not say that definitely. We extend it from year to year, always ia anticipation of a general bill being prepared.


Arthur Meighen: I would suggest that the minister change the bill in committee, so that if he has not a general bill next year, he will not need to extend the Calder Act. The Calder Act is certainly very useful. When the minister has a general superannuation act, all he need do is to put in a clause repealing this act.


William Stevens Fielding: This has the same effect.


Arthur Meighen: That would be a great deal cheaper.
Resolution reported.


Hewitt Bostock: When shall the resolution be read the second time?


Arthur Meighen: Before the question is
put, Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) to submit the information before he moves the third reading? There would be no time to read the statement on the third reading.


William Stevens Fielding: I will see that the hon.
member is personally furnished with the information.
Resolution read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Fielding thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 191 to amend the Public Service Retirement Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


Hewitt Bostock: When shall the bill be
read the second time?


Arthur Meighen: I have no objection to
the second reading now, but I suggest that the information be submitted in committee.


William Stevens Fielding: I shall have to let the
second reading stand, because according to procedure we should have to go into committee immediately if the bill were read the second time. When the bill comes up for second reading I shall be glad to give the information.


Hewitt Bostock: At the next sitting of
the House.
SAINT JOHN AND QUEBEC RAILWAY Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals) moved that the House go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
That the provisions of chapter 12 of the statutes of 1921, be amended by extending the time for the completion of the Saint John and Quebec Railway between Centreville, in the county of Carleton, and Andover, in the county of Victoria, New Brunswick, from the 31st day of December, 1923, to 31st day of December, 1925.


Arthur Meighen: Why is this resolution
necessary?


George Perry Graham: It involves a subsidy,
and my legal instructions are that as the proposed amendment to the act contemplates the payment of money on the completion of the work a resolution is necessary.
Motion agreed to and the House went into committee, Mr. Gordon in the chair.


Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: The minister
might tell us how the work stands, how much has been constructed and how much remains to be done.


George Perry Graham: There is a stretch of
twenty-six miles on this road on which there has not been any construction. This portion of the line, in fact the entire line, was undertaken under an agreement between the provincial government of New Brunswick and the federal government in 1916. In 1919, an act was passed extending the time for completion to 1921, and in 1921 an act was again passed extending the time until 1923. The purpose of the present resolution is to extend it for a further period until 1925. As a matter of fact no work has been done on this twenty-six miles. I understand that both the people and the legislature of New Brunswick are very anxious that we should extend the time for the completion of the work for another two years. If the matter were merely an extension of time for the charter the bill would no doubt go through the Railway committee in the ordinary course; but it involves a subsidy and this procedure has been followed in connection with the two previous extensions.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the
status of the company now? Is the road owned by the province?


George Perry Graham: The St. John Railwav
is owned by the province but operated by the Canadian National Railways under an agreement; the province of New Brunswick has the fixed charges while the Canadian

St. John and Quebec Railway
National Railways carry on the operation. I regret to say that no money is being made.


Mr. BAXTER:: The company is really an
artificial concern; it is the province of New Brunswick. I believe that the railway is still owned in a perfectly nominal way by the company, but it is really the province that is involved.
Mr. MARC1L (Bonaventure):	Is it paying?


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: Is any railway paying? This matter is one in regard to which I should like to have some further information if possible. For some time the process which the minister has referred to has been carried on, that is to say, the extending of the charter by provincial legislation and the subsidy by Dominion legislation. Has the minister any definite, concrete proposal from the provincial authorities with regard to the completion of this very much needed portion of the road? Or is the whole matter simply in the uncertain state which the minister implies, pending the dawn of some happy day when the work may be taken up in earnest? 1 am not going to enter into a discussion of what has been considered on the floor of this house many times as to the routing of the Transcontinental railway through New Brunswick. The Transcontinental railway, so far as it passes through New Brunswick, is a completed fact. The province assumed the burden of building the Valley railway because that railway was needed to do the work that many of us thought ought to have been done by the Transcontinental. Unfortunately, the Transcontinental was connected from Grand Falls to Moncton by practically a straight road through territory which will never produce much traffic, and the St. John valley has been left aside by every government since confederation. At the time of confederation the Intercolonial was built on the extreme northern and eastern side of the province because of a military bugbear. The Transcontinental, for some unknown purpose, was run to Moncton, as if it were possible io create a winter port there; and the route of the St. John valley, one of the most fertile parts of the province and one that requires connection to the greatest extent, was left unserved except in so far as it was served by the purely local Canadian Pacific railway line. The gap which this resolution deals with would enable the St. John Valley railway to be connected with the Transcontinental at a much better junction than now exists. In other words, it would connect at one end with the Transcontinental, which would then be able to use the St. 
John railway throughout its entire length, instead of stopping halfway at Fredericton as is now the case, and using the line between Fredericton and St. John. I think, despite the fact that we do not want to have any additions to the public debt that can possibly be avoided, it would be well worth while for the government-or, I suppose, it is now the Railway board-to take this matter up in earnest with the idea of lifting the burden off the province of New Brunswick,| a burden which that province was compelled to assume because provision had not been made otherwise for this absolutely necessary routing. If this road were completed and made part of the government system the whole burden would be taken off the province. Besides it would then be much easier to reach the port of St. John, as well as the port of Halifax, with western freight, because the gradients would be easier and the distance from Montreal to St. John not any longer than, if as long as, from Montreal to Portland, Maine. To us in the Martime provinces this is a very important question. I notice that in some newspapers, published not very far from the city of Ottawa, we are constantly being reminded that the Maritime provinces should not make requests for lower freight rates or further railway facilities. Apparently we ought to be "good little boys" down there and put up with existing conditions. We, however, inspired by other examples in this House, propose to reiterate our case just as frequently as we can get an opportunity to do so; and perhaps repeated importunity may on some government at some time have the effect that repeated importunity is said to have had upon a certain person very much worse in reputation than the present or any past government. Speaking with all seriousness, I do not think that the million or million and a half that might be involved in completing this work would be at all a burden upon the National Railway system, but such expenditure would remove an encumbrance which the railway system is placing to-day both upon the province and upon the Dominion. That is one way of making the system profitable and improving its facilities, and is above all one of the great means of utilizing a port within the Dominion instead of neglecting it to the advantage of a port lying outside.


George Perry Graham: So far as we are aware, there has been no definite proposition recently for the construction of these twenty-six miles, although the Premier of New Brunswick has written an urgent letter that this act be extended for another two years in the hope that

St. John and Quebec Railway
some arrangement may be arrived at before the expiration of that time.


Mr BAXTER:: As this is a matter not with a private railway company which is seeking to get its charter extended from time to time, but really with the province, why not put the legislation on the statute books in such a wav that it will always be open to be taken advantage of by the province? Why limit the province to two years, why not keep the thing perpetually open?


George Perry Graham: I imagine the province itself will renew the charter to this company every two years.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: They might as well renew it for an indefinite period.


George Perry Graham: If the subsidy keeps up with the renewal of the charter it is doing pretty well. Except under special act, no charter is extended for more than two years under the Railway Act, and the subsidy generally follows the extension of time for the completion of the road.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: But the minister realizes that this is not a private railway company. Although it is under the name of the St. John and Quebec Railway Company, it is really the province of New Brunswick and nobody else, and you might just as well deal with the matter under the name of the province.


George Perry Graham: You could not do that.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: Why have the province of
New Brunswick secured legislation here every two years to extend the right to get this subsidy? Or why have them go through the farce every year of themselves passing legislation to complete this railway? Why not enact legislation providing that the provincial government may complete this road whenever it sees fit, and that then the federal government will come to its aid to the amount promised? Why load up our statute books every two years with a mere farcical proceeding like this when one government is dealing with another, not with some private railway company which perhaps is trying to get an undue extension of some right which others would like to avail themselves of?


George Perry Graham: Legally it is a private company we are dealing with, although the province of New Brunswick, I suppose, owns the controlling interest.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: It does.


George Perry Graham: That company, by agreement with the province of New Brunswick,
might transfer the right to some other company.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: Not without the consent of the province.


George Perry Graham: But without our consent. Then we would be extending for all eternity a subsidy to a private railway company. I think some safeguard ought to be applied to these charters without exception, because parliament is always reasonable in extending the time for completion of the project when reasonable grounds are shown therefor.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Graham thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 191 to authorize an extension of the time for the completion of the Saint John and Quebec Railway between Centreville, in the county of Carleton, and Andover, in the county of Victoria, N.B.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second time and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
On section 1-Time for extension of line extended until 1925.
John Babington Macaulay Baxter: Has the Canadian National Railway board in any way considered the taking over of this road when completed instead of continuing the present leasing arrangement under which a heavy burden falls on the province each year for what is really a Dominion work?


George Perry Graham: I am afraid there is a great willingness on behalf of all the provinces to hand the Dominion anything that does not look like a paying proposition. I am not going to read the figures showing what it cost the Canadian National Railway to operate this road last year. An agreement was made some years ago between the province and the Dominion as to the construction of this line under which it was agreed that the province should assume responsibility for construction and receive certain aid from the Dominion, and that the Intercolonial Railway should undertake the operation of the road. This operation has been a loss to the Canadian Government system each year, and the road itself has also been a loss to the provincial government. The Canadian National Railway board has made no representations to the government concerning the purchase, but the Premier of New Brunswick has on one occasion urged us very strongly to purchase the road. Up to the present time the Min-
Supply-Interior

ister of Railways has not been convinced that this is in the interests of the Dominion.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
Dominion Lands and Parks, $4,387,030.
Lewis Herbert Martell: One item under this vote is "Canadian National Parks and Historic Sites, $1,250,980," and in connection with that item I would like to bring to the minister's attention the historic site of Fort Edward, formerly the Indian Fort Pisiquid, in the town of Windsor. Last year, through neglect, the old block house on this site was burned down, and the site generally is being permitted to go to waste. I believe the minister has appointed a caretaker for it, but it is practically a case of locking the barn door after the horse is stolen. This is one of the most ancient forts in Nova Scotia, and I do not believe it should be under the Parks branch; I should like to see it under the Quebec Battlefields Commission if at all possible, because they do things in more proper style and more in accordance with what the people demand. At present the Parks Commission exists absolutely for the purpose of keeping up certain things in the prairie provinces, such as Jasper Park or the buffalo park at Wainwright, and the like. Now, we in Nova Scotia have many historic sites, one of the most interesting of which is right in the shire town of the county which I have the honour to represent. It is a place that was used in days gone by to enable the English soldiers to defend themselves and the people against the attacks of the Indians. I believe that the people of the province of Quebec have a proper sense of sentiment, and that sentiment is equally pronounced in the people of the Maritime provinces. The keeping up of these areas in the western provinces is purely a matter of dollars and cents; it is a matter which is entirely devoid of sentiment. As Sir Ernest Shackleton once said, "You may call it sentiment if you will, but the world sadly needs sentiment." There should be some sentiment as regards these historic sites in Nova Scotia, and I would like to ask the minister if it would not be possible to have the ancient site of Fort Edward placed under the control , of the Quebec Battlefields Commission.


Hon. CHARLES STEWART (Minister of the Interior):: I have not very much information with respect to the Quebec Battlefields

Commission, but I do know that the Historic Sites Commission have been sitting for some time, and taking into consideration the merits of the various historic sites throughout Canada with a view to preserving them and keeping them in repair.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Who are the representatives of Nova Scotia on the commission?


Charles A. Stewart: E. Plimsoll Edwards of Halifax.


Lewis Herbert Martell: I know Dr. Edwards very well indeed; he is one of the most important officials of the Nova Scotia Historical Society But the way they proceed is to put a brass tablet on some old building and then let it go to pieces. That is what the Nova Scotia Historical Society is doing at the present time-of course, they also have a few papers read. I suggest that a fence be put around the portion of the site containing the remnants of the blockhouse, and the old fort, and that repairs be carried out as far as possible; of course, the minister cannot by modern methods restore an old site to. its original condition. I suggest also that the rest of the ground be set aside as a playground for the town where the children could be inspired with something of the sentiment of what their ancestors did. During the late war these grounds were used by the 112th Battalion, which was commanded by an esteemed friend of mine, though a political opponent, Colonel Tremain, and other battalions from various sections of Canada were quartered there. Let us do what we can to inculcate a proper sentiment in the minds of the people rather than a love of dollars and cents, which is all too prevalent to-day in this country.


Charles A. Stewart: All I can say in reply to my hon. friend is that the matter he complains of has been discussed
4 p.m. by the Historic Sites Commission and they intend to take action to preserve this site and keep it in order.


Lewis Herbert Martell: But has the minister considered, or will this committee consider, the advisability of placing this historic site under the Quebec Battlefields Commission? I believe that is its name, but call it what you will, I believe it has more idea of doing what the people of Canada desire than the Historic Sites Commission has. And will the minister also consider the advisability of permitting that portion of the land which is not used for the purposes of the historic site to be set aside as a playground for the children?

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Charles A. Stewart: I do not know very much about the activities of the Quebec commission. I do know, however, of the work of the commission that has recently been appointed to deal with these sites. There are many historic sites in Canada that the people are desirous of having marked and preserved, and there is a considerable amount of work for this organization. As to the advisability of handing the site he mentions over to the Quebec commission, I cannot give my hon. friend a. definite answer as to that at the moment.


Lewis Herbert Martell: I do not think the Historic Sites Commission are conversant with what these sites represent to the people locally. Fort Edward, or the Indian Fort Pisiquid, which was the Indian name of the shire town of my constituency, is a site of great historic value to every person in Nova Scotia, and particularly the people in the county of Hants. I should like to see adopted, as regards that site, the same rules and regulations as are adopted by the Quebec Battlefields Commission. If the site is not placed under the control of that commission, I should like to see it administered as the Quebec Battlefields Commission administer sites which come under their control. About two and a half acres will be sufficient to enclose the actual historic site, that is, the partly destroyed block house and the old fort as it stands. For many years it has been requested that the land be allocated to the local commission in the town of Windsor, who would be under the control of the representatives of the government there, or of the caretaker, and that the area not fenced in should be used as a playground, for toboggan slides, for camping areas, for the Boy Scouts, and so on. This would result in benefit to the children; it would encourage a proper sentiment, and would help out the Defence department, all at comparatively small expense to the country. I am not asking for anything new. If the right hon. the leader of the Opposition will consult the Minister of Militia of his day he will ascertain that petitions asking for this were received at that time from the town of Windsor-that is, prior to the time this government came into power, and prior to my election for this constituency. Many of the men who are advocating this are political opponents of mine, but I think they are actuated by a desire to see that ample ground should be given to the children of the locality to play in, and where they will be under proper supervision. This fort is right in the heart of the town, the land has an area of twenty-eight acres, and at present it is not used for any
purpose. That, I think, is absolutely absurd when this land could be made to serve some useful end. If the children could use this land as a playground under the supervision of the caretaker, the historic associations would tend to inspire them with greater love for their ancestors and their surroundings. Not only that, but the children could there indulge in exercises calculated to develop their physique. If, owing to the influence of red tape, this historic site is retained as it is the children of the neighbourhood will derive no benefit whatever. Let me say, in conclusion, that I intend to keep pressing this matter until I get a definite promise, and not a mere evasive answer, in regard to this particular piece of ground.


Mr. MILLAR:: I rather dissent from the expressions uttered by the hon. member and am a little surprised to hear that the province of Nova Scotia enjoys a monopoly in the matter of Canadian sentiment.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Canadian sentiment?
What has it to do with Canadian sentiment?


John Millar: I should like to ask my hon. friend if he considers the preservation of the great herds of buffalo at Wainwright park is a mere matter of dollars and cents?


Lewis Herbert Martell: I may tell my hon. friend that I am not opposing in any way the preservation of the great herds of buffalo at Wain-wright park. Do that if you want to, but do not maintain playgrounds out there, which are invaded by tourists, from the mere standpoint of making dollars and cents. We are not asking for such a thing as that. We are asking for the preservation of our historic sites in the province of Nova Scotia. We are asking that this site in the town of Windsor shall be given, under proper supervision, to the town as a place where the children can play.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: I think my hon. friend
from Hants is quite right. I sympathize with him in his determination not to be buffaloed in any way out of his historic site.


Charles A. Stewart: I am sorry the impression should have been created that I was trying to buffalo anybody out of his historic site. If my hon. friend (Mr. Martell) will make it clear that the town of Windsor is prepared to maintain and take care of the land granted to them there would be absolutely no objection so far as I am concerned, provided a sufficient area is fenced off and preserved as an historic site.
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Lewis Herbert Martell: I am satisfied. That is a satisfactory answer.


Mr. GOULD:: I notice in connection with the item of Canadian National parks and historical sites an increase of $284,480 for this year. The minister will recall that I have asked that some consideration should be given to the question of improvements in connection with a pleasure resort in my own district. In making this request let me remind the committee that this is the first occasion this session that I have asked for any concession or any privilege from the government. The need of these improvements has been repeatedly urged not only upon the present administration but upon previous governments. Prior to 1911 the desired work was commenced. It was cancelled after the change of government took place in 1911. The need for this work is just as pressing now as it ever was. I am speaking of the Moose mountains in the district of Assiniboia. We have there five lakes of perhaps six or seven hundred acres in extent, and the towns have expended quite a sum of money in endeavouring to make the spot a pleasure resort for the people of the neighbourhood. I may inform the committee that White Bear lake and Fish lake constitute a rendezvous for hundreds, yes thousands, of visitors who come from the United States. I recall a statement by the leader of the Opposition to the effect that our parks in western Canada formed a source of revenue equal to the agricultural area. I quite believe that statement is true. The Moose mountains resort is far removed from any other place of the kind; it might serve as a stepping stone, if the expression is permissible, to tourists as they proceed through the West in connection with the programme for national road construction on which we are engaged at the present time. I am sure it would be a great source of revenue if the resort in question were further developed. I have in my possession at the present time some beautiful pictures that were taken in the western part of Alberta and the Rocky mountains, but I do not think I err in stating that you can get just as good pictures from scenes in the Moose mountains. I do not think it would involve a very large expenditure on the part of the Dominion government to carry out the necessary improvements. If a road were built around the two lakes referred to, White Bear lake and Fish lake, it would enable tourists to reach those lovely valleys and mountains and view scenery of the most beautiful description. I often have the opportunity of visiting those lakes and I can speak from experience of the 
magnificent scenery which unfolds itself to view. Tourists from British Columbia come to the Moose mountains. In their own province they have scenery of the finest description, but if they leave that and come to the Moose mountains, as they do, it is surely a great tribute to the natural beauties of that district. I earnestly press upon the minister the desirability of giving this matter his best consideration.


Charles A. Stewart: My hon.
friend (Mr. Gould) brought this matter to my attention last year and again this year, and we are disposed to do anything we can to make this district, which is very attractive, more accessible to the public. The people in the southern part of Saskatchewan are not over-supplied with recreation grounds of this kind and we think we can do that in order to meet their claims.
Dominion Lands and Parks-Domonion Lands, contingencies, etc., 1250,000.


Arthur Meighen: Will the minister tell U3 what amount has been voted for the last three years? Last year I see the same amount $250,000. What was it the year before, and the year before that?


Charles A. Stewart: There are three periods given in the record before me. In 1913-14 the expenditure was $280,000 in round numbers; in 1919-20 it was $252,000; in 1920-21, $249,000; and in 1921-22, $244,000. These are the actual expenditures.


Arthur Meighen: I do not recall at the moment what services are performed under "Dominion Lands, Contingencies."


Charles A. Stewart: It is the payment of the expenses of the 18 timber inspectors, the 46 homestead inspectors, the 14 inspectors of land agencies, the range inspectors, and then all the Dominion lands offices in connection with the provinces.


Arthur Meighen: WTiere are the details?


Charles A. Stewart: None are * given.


Arthur Meighen: Are they not given in the blue book?


Charles A. Stewart: I think they will be found in page 327 of the Auditor General's report. I will give my hon. friend the
details. They are as follows:
1.	Expenses of 46 Homestead appraisers, including purchase renewals and repairs, of travelling outfits, such as teams, buggies, harness, etc	$ 85,000
2.	Expenses of 18 timber inspectors, including
as in the above item, purchase, renewals and repairs of travelling outfits, etc	 20,000

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3.	Expenses of 3 inspectors of ranches	 8,500
4.	Expenses of 17 Dominion land and Crown
timber agencies and of the offices of the inspectors of Dominion lands and Crown timber agencies. These expenses consist in the payment of telegrams, telephones, commission and postage to sub-agencies, clerical assistance of a temporary nature only, janitor service, etc	 40,000
5.	Travelling expenses of outside officials when
away on government business, including superintendent of western land agencies, assistant land agency inspectors, travelling auditor, etc	 25,000
6.	Printing and stationery. This item is to cover the cost of printed forms used in transacting public business, the purchase and repairs of typewriters and for all stationery required in the Dominion land offices and
sub-land offices	 48,000
7.	Advertising re sale of timber berths; also to cover accounts in connection with lands
open for entry, etc	 10,000
8.	Miscellaneous:-Freight and express charges,
telegrams, etc. paid at Ottawa, and for unforeseen expenses during	1923-24	 13,500

Item agreed to.


Mr. GARDINER:: As to the amount of $42,240. to satisfy the claims of the half breeds in the Mackenzie river district; what is that for?


Charles A. Stewart: If the hon. member will wait till we come to that, I have it in detail in the report.
Grant to Canadian Forestry Association, $4,000.


Robert Gardiner: May I ask why this amount is decreased? It was $8,000.


Charles A. Stewart: Formerly,
$4,000 was the amount granted to the Canadian Forestry Association. As my hon. friend will see, there is a considerable increase in our forestry vote which we have just passed, and it is becoming increasingly difficult to prevent forest fires-at least it has been in the past few years. I am hoping that the moisture they get in western Canada will make the work less difficult, but we must admit the loss of a tremendous amount of timber. However, comparing the losses of the Dominion forest reserves with that of the provinces, it has not been so severe, because Canada as a whole had a tremendous loss. We were somewhat fortunate, perhaps, in not suffering so much by fire in the three prairie provinces and in the forests in British Columbia. This Forestry Association is doing a very great work. It was instituted by people interested in forestry protection, the manufacturers of lumber and kindred products. For years, as far as I can ascertain, they received a grant of $4,000. They seem to have increased their activities and asked for an increased grant.
The Forestry branch of the department is organized, I think, on very good lines and is prepared to do a splendid work in propagating knowledge with respect to forest fires generally. Perhaps we are weak in not having technically trained men to combat forest diseases. If we are weak in one branch, it is that particular branch. I think we should have entomologists to deal with that question, because it is rather a serious one. Outside of that, we have a splendid organization, prepared to disseminate the information we obtain, which we propose to do through the different schools. I feel that, inasmuch as we are prepared to do directly through the department the class of work that was undertaken by the Forestry Association, we might very well revert to the old grant to this association, and expend the money under our supervision, because I think we can do it as cheaply, and perhaps just as well, and in fact I think very much better, than they have been able to do. I am not for a single moment decrying the -work this organization has done. They have gone through the country with a car and by lectures interested the people in forest preservation and the prevention of fires, while our work is more of the character of actually extinguishing fires when started. So that on the whole, I think if we revert to the old grant which this association has been receiving, and use the balance for the purpose of carrying on propaganda to educate the children, and adults as well, against carelessness with respect to fires which destroy timber that is valuable, it might be beneficial. I think I am safe in saying that more timber has been destroyed by fire than has been actually cut. That is a serious situation, and we hope in the forestry department to do our utmost to assist in abating this destruction. That is the reason for the reduction in the grant.


Mr. McBRIDE:: In regard to forest fires, it has always seemed to me that if this government could pass legislation under which they could conscript the people in the vicinity of the fire, and pay them not more than a dollar a day to fight the fire, our loss through forest fires would be reduced. I have noticed, particularly in haying time in my own district *-and I make the statement in this House without hesitation-that more fires are started to get people employment than in any other way. They get bigger wages than the farmers can pay for haying and such work. I have known the men to be taken out of the hay fields to fight fires. The Forestry department would pay a third more than we were able to pay them for making hay. I think if there
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were a law passed and people conscripted in the district where the fire was and paid as I have already said not more than one dollar a day it would cause everybody to take an interest in keeping the fires down.


Arthur Meighen: Does the hon. member's appeal for conscription evoke no response?


Charles A. Stewart: We do conscript to fight fifes.


Arthur Meighen: Is that known to all the hon. gentlemen behind the minister?


Mr. LAPOINTE:: Not for overseas, for home service.


Charles A. Stewart: I take it that my hon. friend is complaining about the wages paid.


Arthur Meighen: I did not gather that members were aware that the service was compulsory. I was wondering though, knowing the principles of the leader of the government and many of his followers, that they would conscript anybody until the fire was right in their own barn, on the principle that they should not do so-that they should wait until, at least, the house was on fire before conscripting.


Ernest Lapointe: If there is an ocean between the fire and the barn, there is no danger for the barn.


Arthur Meighen: Some fires can cross
oceans. I have known some very recently in the world.


Mr. FORKE:: Explain.


Arthur Meighen: The minister, however, will give consideration to that, because I would not like any interference with individual liberty to emanate from this government.


Ernest Lapointe: The right hon. member is improving.


Charles A. Stewart: I hope my right hon. friend is not suggesting that we shall not be able to conscript fire-fighters.


Arthur Meighen: I would conscript from anywhere to fight a fire. I believe in putting fires out rather than in discussing the matter.
I could not even hear what was being read, but the general item of forest protection is evidently under discussion. There is an increase of $88,000, to which I do not take exception, provided that we are satisfied that the organization the minister has is the best that can be made. Who is the head of it now? Mr. Campbell was head of it, but he was very seriously injured, and I do not know whether he is now at the head of the branch or not.


Charles A. Stewart: Mr. Campbell has unfortunately not recovered from his infirmity. For the time being Mr. Finlayson is in charge. My right hon. friend will know Mr. Dwight who was Mr. Campbell's assistant; he is at Toronto University. There has not been a successor appointed to Mr. Campbell.


Arthur Meighen: Who is the acting head?


Charles A. Stewart: Mr. Finlayson for the moment.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: I notice with some regret the reduction in the estimates for the Canadian Forestry Association; but before disapproving the reduction, I should like to know something about the second item, the Empire Forestry Conference, for which an expenditure of $30,000 is proposed.


Arthur Meighen: I intend to discuss that too. I am prepared to discuss all together the three items referring to forestry.


Charles A. Stewart: Which question am I to answer first? We were discussing the general forestry matter. If hon. gentlemen would discuss one question until we get it exhausted, that would be better.


The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Marcil):: The item is "Grant to Canadian Forestry Association, $4,000."


Arthur Meighen: I raised the point that I had not heard the preceding item carried.
I thought the Chairman was reading the long item just preceding. I suggest that we discuss all the forestry items together, for really that is the only way we can discuss them. They are all forestry items: The last one, the grant to the Canadian Forestry Association, and the item mentioned by the hon. member for Calgary West (Mr. Shaw), the Empire Forestry Conference.


Charles A. Stewart: The Forestry Conference is a conference that was started in 1920, the outcome of a meeting in London. It embraces the whole of the overseas dominions as well as Great Britain. It is for the purpose of studying more intimately forestry matters. I believe it was well under way under the regime of the Hon. Sir James Lougheed, and that Canada was offered the conference for 1923. I know that as soon as I came into office the matter came up actively, and I believed it was of sufficient importance to the people of Canada to have representatives from all the overseas dominions come here and hold a conference, because not only will they hold a conference in Canada, but they will travel through Canada and so be-

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come more familiar with our forest wealth, and, perhaps, this will dissipate some of the delusions held particularly by overseas people with respect to our timber. Hon. gentlemen will remember that for a considerable period, during the war, notwithstanding the fact that we have splendid spruce timber that can be manufactured for almost any purpose for which that timber is used, a great deal was brought from the United States. I felt it would be good business to bring to Canada these outstanding forestry men from the overseas dominions, and also English people who are interested, and let them see what we have in the way of forest wealth. Moreover, it would give us a better understanding, as well as assisting our officials and others interested in reforestation and kindred subjects, to hold a conference of this kind in Canada.


Robert Forke: I suppose the minister is aware of the fact that a large quantity of timber is imported from the United States, for binder tongues, seeder tongues, and nearly all farm implement tongues. We have no timber of that kind suitable for the purpose. I believe it is Georgia pine, red pine I mean.


Charles A. Stewart: I know what my hon. friend has in mind, Georgia pine, which is used for the construction of tongues, shafts and that sort of thing. It is a very tough wood. So far as I know, we have nothing to compare with it in Canada.


Robert Forke: I think it is pretty poor stuff.


Charles A. Stewart: Manufacturers of farm implements must pay more for it than for our Douglas pine. On my farm, when I had a breakdown, I usually substituted by putting in 4 x 4 Douglas fir rather than by buying a new binder pole from the company. We got fairly good satisfaction, with the single exception that the fir, as hon. members know, does not stand the sun very well and will warp considerably. We are giving consideration to matters of that kind in the laboratory of our Forestry branch.


Arthur Meighen: The size of this grant, $30,000, is accounted for by the fact that the conference is to be in Canada.


Charles A. Stewart: To pay for the conference, yes.


Arthur Meighen: I do not know how far the matter proceeded under my successor, but I do not think it would have proceeded very far had I been in the department myself. I think the whole conference matter is overdone. In the Interior department scarcely a week went by that a call for a conference
was not worked up and presented to thef minister in most plausible form. The salvation of the country was to depend upon the sending of some of the officials of the department here, there and everywhere, chasing after conferences and information. I do not want to stand as one who deprecates the education of our foresters in the very best methods that any country in the world can produce. If there is a country that requires the best forestry service it is Canada. I am not reflecting in the least degree on the efficiency of our forestry organization, because I should have had to give more concentrated attention to it and travel more to examine it than I was able to do to assure myself that it was a thorough organization; but I have no reason to say that it was not; that is all I can say. I should think, however, that the publications of foresters the world over, the scientific works that are available to all members of our forestry service, and the literature that exists on the subject and which is by no means sparse, would be all that was required to bring the latest ideas to the attention of the men of our own force. Why it is necessary for somebody in China to come face to face with somebody in Brazil and be met there by somebody else from Sweden, together with all the fraternity of foresters from every part of the world, to hold a jubilee in order that they might get one another's opinions, I never could understand.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: And at great expense.


Arthur Meighen: The fact is that it is not at their own expense, and the temptation is very great for them to hold such conferences. And, inasmuch as there is an object to be attained, human nature is such that they can readily and honestly convince themselves that it is a splendid thing to do and all to the advantage of the country. I do not think that this item should be here and I commit myself to that position even though preparations for the conference may have been under way under Sir James Lougheed. I was not aware myself that they were under way, but I think the minister would have been well advised to let the honour pass by, and let them hold the conference somewhere else. Possibly a representative of the department could attend to see whether we could get any advantage from it before making a large commitment. Speaking generally, not with any special reference to forestry, but with as much reference to twenty or thirty other branches of the service, I offer in all humility this advice to the minister and to the government: Be on guard against propaganda for conferences.
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Charles A. Stewart: Inasmuch as there is a very strong desire in British Columbia to introduce their timber, of which they have a great deal, into New Zealand, for example, as well as the desire for inter-empire trade, I felt that this particular conference might be of some value in the way of spreading a knowledge of Canada's timber resources. In the main, I agree with the hon. gentleman in what he says in reference to conferences. Frankly, I confess that I am not personally very much enamoured of the results to be obtained from conferences, and perhaps we are going entirely too far with an expenditure of this character. But this matter apparently was settled; the offer had been made to Canada and to some extent had been accepted. I do think that the conference will serve to dissipate a great deal of misapprehension in regard to our forest products, and, further, will undoutedly be of advantage to the people who have to do with our forests. I know of no part of our public resources that stands in greater need of proper methods of preservation than does our forest wealth. We have a vast wealth there if we can only preserve it from fire. The insect danger is not so serious; but fire is unquestionably responsible for losses that run into millions annually. While I can assure the committee that I shall not, while I am in charge of the Department of Interior, come back for large votes for forestry conventions, I do think at the same time that if we cannot adequately combat the fire menace with the present force we shall have to extend it. It would pay the people of Canada greatly to extend the force, because the cost of the Forestry branch is a very small item indeed in comparison with the tremendous .losses we suffer annually.


Mr. EVANS:: Are we following any systematic plan of reforestation.


Charles A. Stewart: Yes. There are stations at the following places: Spruce Woods, Duck Mountain, Riding Mountain, Mute Mountain, in Manitoba; Nisbet, Beaver Hills and Pines in Saskatchewan; Cypress and Cooking Lake in Alberta.


John Millar: Has there been any recognition of any sort of the work of Mr. Bamjum for the work he has been doing in this connection? As far as I am able to judge, he appears to be rendering a great patriotic service in drawing the attention of the public to the widespread destruction of our forests by the spruce bud worm and other pests.


Arthur Meighen: Is the member not
aware that in the budget the government promised a royal commission to Mr. Bamjum to look into the question he had raised.


Charles A. Stewart: My hon.
friend asks if we are going to give him any remuneration?


Arthur Meighen: Any recognition.


Charles A. Stewart: I presume
he meant in the way of remuneration. Mr. Bamjum ge'ts a great deal of recognition- he is considered an authority on the subject. At the moment he is advocating the prohibition of the export of pulp wood as a means of conserving our forest wealth. Of course, there is conservation on all the Crown lands-no wood goes out of Canada except that which is cut off private lands.


John Millar: Mr. Barnjum is drawing
the attention of the public to the fact that millions and millions of feet of timber is being lost to Canada annually by the destruction of the spruce bud worm.


Charles A. Stewart: My hon.
friend from Victoria and Carleton (Mr. Caldwell) gave us an address on that subject last session. I had that in mind when I was speaking just now.


Robert Forke: I do not think I shall be
betraying any confidence when I say that Mr. Bamjum told me he was getting far more pleasure out of spending his money to further forest conservation than he ever got when making it. Would the minister tell us what are the activities of the Dominion government in regard to tree planting in the prairie provinces?


Charles A. Stewart: Tree planting stations are established for the purpose of furnishing trees to those requiring them. I think my honourable friend is familiar with the regulations under which trees are distributed?


Robert Forke: That is, from the experimental farms?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, from
our tree planting stations at Indian Head and Sutherland. There has been no change of methods. I have some knowledge of the way it works out from actual experience, and I think one has only to travel through the Saskatoon district to notice the improvement in that area due to tree planting. Application is made for the trees and they are furnished as far as possible. As far as I know we have been able to supply the demand.

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Mr. STEEDSMAN:: Could the minister
give the committee any information as to the extent or success of reforestation in the Turtle Mountain reserve in Manitoba?


Charles A. Stewart: My information is that the trees planted there are doing well. I think I discussed that matter with Mr. Ward, the member, who seems to be very much interested.


Robert Forke: No, Mr. Steedsman is the
member.


Charles A. Stewart: I beg his
pardon. He has asked us to extend the area very largely owing to the success of the first experiment.


Robert James Manion: I have heard the statement made on fairly strong authority-at least, by. a man who claimed he had knowledge of the fact-that it was the intention of the government to shortly bring in legislation prohibiting the export of pulp wood from private lands, which is going on in some of the provinces to-day. So far as I am concerned, and I have given some thought to the matter, I think it would be very good legislation. I should like to know if there is any intention on the part of the government to deal with it this session.


Charles A. Stewart: I can
hardly speak with authority in a matter of this kind. Strong representations have been made to the government to prohibit the export of pulp wood, and the matter has been discussed. Considerable opposition to sucn a proposal is coming from areas in which perhaps most of the pulp wood is cut which is sent across the boundary, that is, from Quebec and New Brunswick.


Arthur Meighen: The minister seems to
have forgotten the government's policy on this subject. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) announced that they would appoint a royal commission to look into the matter. So the government could not possibly make up its mind until it got the report of the commission. What has been the result of the three weeks' deliberations since that policy was announced? Has the government made any progress towards selecting the members of the commission, and what are the chances of Mr. W. T. R. Preston being chosen?


Ernest Lapointe: Is he applying for a position on the commission?


Arthur Meighen: He always applies.


Charles A. Stewart: I heard some announcement of a commission, but further
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than that I have no knowledge. The matter has not been discussed in council, while I have been present.


John Millar: Would the minister be
favourably inclined to extending the field of operations of the tree planting stations? I know that requests have been made by those laying out memorial parks-and I suppose other parks-for shrubs and trees, but, as the minister knows, the regulations forbid the distribution of trees for this purpose; those living in towns are not supplied.


Charles A. Stewart: I visited the station at Indian Head last year, and I found that most of the trees there have been required by farmers. Inasmuch as farm locations are somewhat isolated on the prairies, I think the first work of the Tree planting division should be to supply all the farmers who require trees for shelter belts around their homes, besides, these trees add very much to the appearance of the whole country. People living in towns have a great deal more protection than those in the rural districts. I would not say that it might not be advisable to extend the distribution of trees for the planting of public playgrounds, but we do not propose to make this extension for the present.


John Millar: At present, even though
there is a demand for all the trees that are grown at these stations, there are times when they have a surplus of certain varieties, it being hard to gauge the exact number to be grown to meet the needs of the country. I suppose there would be no objection to these surplus trees being used for town parks?


Charles A. Stewart: If we had
these surpluses I would not be averse to giving them for public parks in urban centres.


John Millar: Cemeteries and Parks?


Charles A. Stewart: I am told
on the authority of one of my officers that the town of Davidson in Saskatchewan did get some trees from us for its cemetery.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: I concur in the view expressed by the leader of the Opposition (Mr. Meighen) that this grant of 830,000 to the Empire Forestry Conference might well be dispensed with. These conferences are of doubtful value, and certainly I think a forestry conference may be of little, if any, value. I would much prefer to see the minister, instead of yielding to this departmental pressure, continue the grant to the Canadian Forestry Association. This is a voluntary organization with an advisory council representative of every province. It carries on a very valuable educational work not only

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among the adult population but among the yonger generation. I presume that the minister has cut down the grant to $4,000 at the request of the association; I do not know. I think, however, that private effort in the direction undertaken by the Forestry Association with grants which it receives from this government and from some of the provincial governments and various private donors has been of a very valuable character, and it is work which I believe cannot be as successfully carried on by any department of government.


Charles A. Stewart: Will my hon. friend explain why?


Joseph Tweed Shaw: Because the gentlemen engaged in this work are actuated by their desire to render some public service. Nobody is being paid; it is entirely a voluntary undertaking.


Charles A. Stewart: The secretary is drawing a very nice salary.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: That may be true; you have to pay someone to do that work. But outside of that there is very much work being undertaken that is not paid for at all. For instance, in one of the high schools in Calgary some of the gentlemen who were interested in this organization called a meeting of the parents _ and children and gave them a very valuable lecture on tree growing, tree preservation and the various methods of fire prevention. It is a voluntary effort, except so far as the central organization is concerned. In addition, they have a very excellent magazine which deals with all problems in connection with forestation. It seems to me that that work can be much better done by this private, voluntary organization than by government with a very heavy establishment, the members of which are all too anxious, perhaps, to magnify the importance of their own individual tasks. Mind you, I am not suggesting that the government's work in this connection is not important; it is a matter of vital importance to this country. But I do not think the government in undertaking this work should discourage any voluntary organization which is equally desirous of promoting the preservation of our forests in Canada.


Charles A. Stewart: Both in Alberta and since coming to Ottawa I have discovered that all these organizations which receive grants from the government are in many ways doing work that is government work-or if we are not doing it, we should be. I do not think that officials of the government could go into the public schools and deliver lectures on

tree planting, but they could very well send throughout the country a car equipped as the car of the Canadian Forestry Association was equipped, demonstrating proper methods of tree planting, the effects of forest fires and methods of prevention, and so on. We are actually doing that work; we have to perform the service, and we can speak authoritatively about it. As I have said, I do not for a moment wish to decry the work of this organization. But for years they have got along with this particular grant, and the tendency of all organizations receiving these grants-organizations which are outside the control of the government-is to ask for increased amounts year after year. My experience has been that once you encourage a grant of this character-not particularly this one, but any similar grant- you make it about the easiest source of their getting money. I do not know that private individuals with a desire to serve are supporting this organization and that it is doing good work. Of course, the organization was started by people who were directly interested in the preservation of the forests-there is no doubt about that-and their propaganda is undoubtedly of value. But I do think that the grant we are making might very well be continued. Only for two years did they get an increase.
I am quite prepared to stand by the
5 p.m. grant given them. The men who supported them in the past will no doubt be quite prepared to support them in the future.


Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: I think there is a great deal in what the minister says about grants and subsidies and the evils to follow from continuing the giving of them. Frankly, for my part, I would be glad to see all that form of subsidization cut out. But since you are going to have it; since you are going to subsidize such things, we will say, as the West Indies steam packet company or the Alpine Club-and the latter is one of the most absurd grants, I think, in the estimates-we can surely afford, if we admit the principle, to continue to give a fairly reasonable grant to an association that is doing such splendid work as the Canadian Forestry Association. I am sorry the minister has economized at the expense of this association in particular. Why not economize on the Alpine Club grant and give the money to something more useful?


Charles A. Stewart: The Alpine Club was always a theme upon which there was a very bitter controversy in our province. I suppose they do valuable work-I am not an expert on the mountain business, but I have

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no doubt they render some service. But I wish to say again that I do not desire to decry the services of this forestry organization. The hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Garland) is right when he says that governments might very well curtail grants of this character that go outside their control.


Edward Joseph Garland: Do away with all of them.


Charles A. Stewart: I am quite prepared to consider it.


Edward Joseph Garland: Do not cut a good one and leave the bad one.


George Perry Graham: It is a matter of judgment.


Arthur Meighen: I may say I approve
of both these grants-I mean, the Alpine Club and this one; I do not approve of the 330,000 conference. The Canadian Forestry Association represents men in Canada who are financially interested in the preservation of the forest, and they rightly feel that upon rhem a special responsibility rests. I presume there is a measure of altruism in their action; they are doing it for the benefit of the country, but they are doing it mainly for their own benefit. They are doing it in order that they may create a sentiment which will reflect itself in a diminished forest desolation, and in that way preserve their own property. In doing so, whether that is the motive that animates them or not does not matter, they do serve the state, because just to the degree that they prevent fires anywhere they ward off danger to government property. Not only do they serve the state in preventing fires that would consume government property, but when they preserve their own property they serve the state, because the state suffers if their property is destroyed. Consequently it seems to me that the work they are doing is a necessary work, and as we are interested in it, it is only right that we should help it; it is only right that we should contribute to any measure to encourage them, because we get to a large degree the benefit of the results of their outlay and their work. The same words really apply to the little vote to the Alpine Club. But in the absence of the hon. member for Brome (Mr. McMaster) and the other gallant fighter across the way who season in and season out, did brave battle in this House against that $1,000 grant, really I would not want to win the conflict by default this afternoon. I think I should wait until the enemy arrives, and then we can fight it out once more. I notice, however, that their ardour is very much cooled with the change of government.


George Perry Graham: They have climbed
higher.


Arthur Meighen: I do not know that there is much difference as between the $8,000 and the $4,000; if the association feels that it is leceiving adequate recognition at the hands of the government when it gets $4,000, all right. I would not, however, object to a grant of $8,000.


Robert Gardiner: I wish to draw the
minister's attention to a very important feature of this tree planting situation. The minister is aware that we have in the southern parts of Saskatchewan and Alberta what we term the semi-arid belt. During the last year of two there have grown up in that southern area tree planting associations the purpose of which is to induce farmers to plant and care for at least one-half mile of trees. I merely mention this matter because I believe we could in this way alter the conditions in southern Alberta and Saskatchewan; so that it is desirable that as many trees be planted there as possible. I trust that during the coming year the minister will consider carefully this phase of the situation. It is true that on the bare prairies we have planted shelter belts of trees, but these protect only the buildings. It seems to me that if that country is ever going to be saved for any useful purpose to Canada we will have to plant large areas with trees, and if we can encourage the farmers to put, say, half a mile of plantation on their farm, I fancy we will solve the problem that awaits solution in that particular area.


Arthur Meighen: I wish to say a word in endorsement of the hon. member for Medicine Hat (Mr. Gardiner), and in doing so to try and press again upon the government the importance of this forest preservation question. As I find one member of the cabinet has forgotten the government policy on the subject, I really fear that its members as a whole are not very much concentrated at the present time on the subject of forest preservation. It is something very easy to make a mountain of, but as it stands it really is a problem quite difficult of solution. There are many things in my judgment that are needed. We should have a single and well-systematized Dominion organization for fighting forest fires, and this vote is rather a contribution to that end. I believe it is true that the federal organization has succeeded better than the provincial organizations. For myself, I would like to see some arrangement made by which the whole responsibility might be assumed by the federal organization. I

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would like to see that done, because I am thoroughly convinced the work could be more economically and more efficiently performed under a Dominion-wide organization than it is now, distributed as it is over nine or ten organizations or more.
There must at the same time be a really more effective attack made upon the disease element of the danger. From what I can learn this has grown in peril at a prodigious rate during the last few years, attacking particularly our pine and our spruce. Just how the government is prepared to do battle against this menace I do not know. I would like the minister to explain what is really being done to protect our forests against the spruce bud worm, and against other invasions of pests that have been most marked in the last two, three or four years. Next, being certain that all that we now have in mind is being done in this direction, there are other things, it seems to me, that are equally manifest, perhaps not equally effective, which are obviously the right things to do. First of all, in my judgment there is no excuse whatever for a continuation of the present policy of permitting our raw wood to go out of this countiy. What there is in the question that should form the subject matter of a royal commission is a mystery to me. It is not something as respects which the basic facts are unknown. Royal commissions are to inquire into facts. The facts are all known. A royal commission appointed to inquire into facts that are known and acknowledged is a mere stand-off and worse. Why does not the government act? I have heard, of course, talk of reprisals. There might be, for example, a duty put on our lumber, an embargo put on American coal, an embargo put on American cotton. Let me repeat what I said the other day. Under present circumstances

we standing on our feet and the United States standing on theirs-I do not fear any reprisal from the United States, none whatever. There are reprisals they might put on that in a very short time would be the very best thing that could happen us; and there is not one that will not bring as much injury, or more, on themselves as it would do to us. So far as any word of mine can affect the government, let me say: Do not worry about reprisals; act in the best interests of the Dominion. The United States will act in their own interests without any incitement on our part. Why raw wood on private lands, any more than on public lands, should be permitted to leave the country at the present rate when our forest reserves are already perilously small, I do not know. The minister says export is

only permitted from private lands and not from the forests that are publicly owned. Very well as long as you permit export from private lands you cannot prevent export from public lands. The one channel is utilized for both and any force of inspectors that would prevent the abuse of that channel would be so expensive as to be out of the question. Consequently I hope that this idea of a royal commission will be abandoned and that the government will come to parliament this session with a real policy. Because every session this House meets from this day on the magnitude of the forest preservation problem will grow. Its present condition is of urgent consequence to this country right now. Let me say this-and I do not pretend on this subject to feel quite so sure as I do on the other-at seems to me we should in co-operation with the provinces, try to provide- though it will diminish the immediate saleable value of our forest reserves on our private and public property-some rule whereby there shall be a tree planted for every tree cut. That does not seem to me to be very impracticable; there cannot be arguments brought to bear to show that it is.


Charles A. Stewart: I think it is quite practicable.


Arthur Meighen: If it is practicable, it should be done without the loss of another session of parliament. Furthermore, a general policy that will get results from the suggestion of the hon. member for Medicine Hat would be exceedingly beneficial to this country. It would bring the activities of hundreds of thousands of individual farmers into the great campaign for forest growth and would, at the same time distribute the benefits of that forest growth over all portions of our forest country. Some encouragement I should think could be given to that suggestion. Possibly the provinces should take part. But whether the provinces took part or not,, even if they stood quite aside, this government and people could well afford now to plant the foundation of the future wealth and strength of our coun-rty.
Mr- GRAHAM: The question of forest preservation, as has been well said by my right hon. friend (Mr. Meighen) and the member for Medic:ne Hat (Mr. Gardiner), means much not only to us but our children, our grandchildren and all those who are to come after us. The older provinces have control of their forest lands. The question of preserving this wealth has been discussed in the various provinces which are blessed with forest growth, as long as I have been in public life.

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341?
To my mind we are not, either provincially or otherwise, doing all we can for forest preservation. Although a good deal has been done, yet it is a sad commentary on the Dominion of Canada that year by year we have such extensive forest destruction. In the province of Ontario, in which I live, if the forest wealth had been preserved and regrown by a reforestation policy up to the limit of possibility, it would mean, from a financial standpoint, a never-ending source of financial supply. In the province of Ontario the timber sales and the rental of timber areas have been a prolific source of revenue, but instead of replanting being continually working under the operation of the regrowth of a crop, that we have been decimating, we have continued to cut down our forest wealth till it has-I will not say it has all disappeared, but it is receding very rapidly. From the financial standpoint, if from no other, in our provinces, I believe it is absolutely necessary, as my right Ron. friend has said, to have every tree that is taken down replaced by another. That is done in some countries. I have been trying to recall where it is done.


Arthur Meighen: Norway.


Charles A. Stewart: France.


George Perry Graham: That is as to the forest, of which I will speak in a moment. Now, as to the more scattered timber throughout our farming areas-where there have been trees in years gone by, their value was not appreciated by the settlers in many cases. The moisture of our farms can be retained by a sufficient quantity of timber growth. In that respect, where we have cleared the timber away altogether, we have lost much in the fertility of our lands, particularly in dry seasons. I think we cannot show too great energy in the protection of the forest wealth we have and for the replacement of the wealth that is gone. I am in hopes that the use of aviation will in a measure assist in the work of protection from fire. It has been used also in the discovering of the pests that are destroying our forests. I am at a loss to know what results have been obtained in connection with the protection of our forests from these pests. Take even our shade trees; this season they are being attacked very severely by one of these pests, I do not know the name of it. I think that this province has done a good deal towards finding out some method of destroying this pest, but so far as I know, to date no genuine protection against its attacks has been provided.
There is a question now as to the export duty, or the prohibition of export. This is one of the difficulties that arises particularly in Ontario and Quebec. The settler goes into our forests in these provinces, and, unlike the settler going to the prairies, he has no land to plough until he clears a certain area. While he is doing that, working out a little home for himself, as our fathers did by clearing away the timber, his only means of living is by selling his pulp wood in the pulp wood areas. Now he objects very strongly to anything that tends to prevent him selling his pulp wood in the market that will give him the biggest price. I have been waited on by several of these men during recent months concerning this matter, and the contention of the settler is that if a prohibition or heavy export duty were imposed, he would be subject to a price dictated by the mill near his own home, and he believes or fears that the price he would receive for the pulp wood on the little clearing that he was preparing for agriculture, would be lessened to a degree that would be injurious. He might be protected in some way, but that is the objection raised in the two older provinces, as presented to me, not on behalf of the large exporter of pulp wood so much as the smaller settler who derives his living for two or three years from the sale of pulp wood while he is clearing his land. But something very radical will take place in this country before long in the protection of our forests, because it has been well pointed out that they are being denuded very rapidly and that in a few years our vast forest domain will be little more than a memory. I hardly know what to propose, because the government is studying the matter. I agree absolutely with everything that has been said with regard to the seriousness of the situation and the necessity of something being done, and I want to draw the attention of the committee to the objection that has been presented to the government concerning the small settler. Perhaps he could be protected in some way, but I cannot just now indicate how. If we in Canada are not going to look out for ourselves, our friends across the line are not going to do it for us. I may have wrong views, but my own opinion is that the Dominion of Canada, with its still vast expanse of timber area as well as other natural resources, ought to have a policy for the pepole of Canada, regardless of what other people do, treating them fairly, of course. But the further we go along in our national life the clearer it becomes to me that the nation that stands for itself at all times is the one that
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*will have the respect of all the other nations of the world, so long as it does it decently [DOT]and without reprisal to any other nation. I am strongly in favour of anything that will bring about better protection of our forests and lend encouragement to regrowing forests that have been denuded, as well as to tree-planting in those portions of the Dominion of Canada that are naturally without forest cover.


Robert Forke: I hardly know what the minister means by a nation standing for itself. I think all the nations are doing that with a vengeance.


George Perry Graham: The right hon. leader of the Opposition spoke about reprisals. I feel as he does, and what I meant was that we should go along the line that we think that is best for the Dominion of Canada. The bugbear of reprisals is magnified in our minds, I think.


Robert Forke: What about the big stick?


George Perry Graham: The big stick has never hurt us very much.


Robert Forke: No, but we talk about having a stick.


George Perry Graham: I know, having something to dicker with. But if we dicker for our own interests first, we will be acting in accordance with my view of a nation's duty. With our resources in coal at both remote ends of this country, with our resources in timber, in fisheries, and above all our agricultural industry, we are in a position to stand erect, to do what we think is in the interest of the people of Canada, and to take chances on what any other nation wall do.


Mr. WARNER:: I should like to add a -word to this discussion. It was my lot to live for many years in a country that was right on the edge of just as dry a country as any place in Canada that I know of. I have had 'experience in raising timber in a dry country. Looking over the years that have passed, I know something about the effect in those countries of planting timber, and I want to say just a little regarding planting timber on the open prairie, in the West in particular. I agree with all that the ministerfMr. Graham) has said regarding the preservation of our timber.
I know that is needed. The country where I live, when I went in first, was practically all bush and timber, at least all that was not cultivated. Now, there is not much timber left in that country. I do not know how much influence this has had on the climate, and we do not know because the climate varies. We have cycles of dry years and

cycles of wet years; but it is my opinion that the clearing away of the timber has brought about more of a dry condition in our country. I know we have more wind in that country, because it is more open.
Coming back to the planting of timber in a prairie country, I think there should be some system, or an understanding of how to plant timber. I have an opportunity of knowing that by seeing what was done in the country where I lived so long. In the beginning the government had a policy to give a quarter section to any man who would plant forty acres of timber and take care of it. He was donated what we call a timber claim for S10, the same price as for taking a homestead. It was learned that enough people would not take up that land, plant forty acres in timber and attend to it, so as to get the results that the government wanted. Therefore the government cut this down, first to twenty acres and finally to ten acres. After they cut it down to ten acres, much more timber was planted in that country than was the case when they gave a man an opportunity of getting the land if he would plant forty acres of timber. That was more than they carei to take care of; it was a greater obligation than they wanted to assume in order to secure a quarter section. When they began to plant the ten acre lots in timber and to take care of them properly was when we began to see the best results. That timber had to be planted a certain distance apart; it had to be planted in a body. The idea was-and I believe it is a good one-that all timber planted should be planted in a body rather than in single rows, and I want to deal for just a moment with the question of planting in rows. I believe in a country where the wind is sweeping the soil and blowing it from one field to another and from one place to another, this can be stopped largely by planting rows of trees in different places. But when you plant one row of trees on one side of a farm, you cannot conserve very much moisture with that one row, because the vegetation there is not heavy enough, the leaves that fall will blow away, and you do not have on top of the ground an accumulation to conserve the moisture as you would have if the trees were planted in a body. The reason for planting timber in a body is to conserve the moisture, and after that the thing will take care of itself with the quantity of rainfall in any part of our western country. Provided timber is planted in a body and gets a start, the leaves falling and the vegetation there will accumulate a certain covering on top of the ground that will hold the moisture. In that way the trees will have better growth,

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after cultivation is no longer needed, and, provided there is enough timber, the moisture will be conserved to go into the air and regulate the rainfall in that part of the country.
Some forty or fifty years ago in Nebraska, they commenced that kind of planting in a country just as dry as any part of Alberta, indeed as dry as any part of western Canada that 1 know of, and the rainfall in that country has been increased until we no longer hear of droughts whereas it was quite a common thing, and sometimes for several years at a time, to have drought in that country, thus preventing the normal growth of crops. That timber is holding enough moisture in the country to affect the climate to a considerable extent. I believe, as the minister said, when we remove the timber altogether, from any part of our country, we shall feel the result and the country will become drier. In the northern parts of China particularly that I have read about and st.udied more or less, they have floods, and they have droughts because their forests have been removed. Their land is rolling, and whenever rain occurs, the water rushes into the valleys and streams, goes away and does not he in the country so as to put moisture back into the air, conserve the moisture and ensure a normal rainfall.
Rows of trees may be all right; but as the hon. member for Medicine Hat (Mr. Gardiner) was speaking about the matter, this came into my mind. I knew well how they had to plant timber throughout that country under a system of getting enough trees to-[DOT]gether to hold sufficient moisture there to affect the rainfall. I believe, if in every quarter section in the western country, ten acres could be planted in timber, that would distribute the rainfall, and they would not have those periodical droughts from which they now suffer. I am satisfied of that from what I have read and from the experience I have had in a country similar to our own West.
I want to add just a word and to give the minister a little of the experience that I have had in growing timber. At first when we -went into that country, the people did not think very much of raising and cultivating timber. The prairies were burned regularly, and consequently the people had their difficulties from lack of rain. But after they had had their difficulties they began to want to get away from them, and they saw an opportunity to get out-in that way. They were led to take the government land as the government gave it to them and many of tthem after they had bought the land, planted
timber. I did that myself on a prairie farm and I know it is a pleasure; it is easy to raise timber if you know the right way to go about the work.
If the prairie grass were left untouched, in time it would form a very good covering or mulch. I have had occasion to study this problem and I know that in one particular county in which I lived in Nebraska the burning of the grass was rigidly prevented over a period of about ten years. At the end of that time there happened to be a drought, and experiment was made to ascertain the moisture of the land. Holes were dug to the depth of some ten feet where the land had been covered with the prairie grass during that ten years, and there was considerable moisture in that part; whereas on the other hand, wherever the grass had been burnt, the land remained quite dry, without any possibility of vegetation. So that there is no question, in my opinion at least, that it is possible to retain the moisture in the land if, whenever trees are cut down, others are planted to take their places. I have been much concerned in my part of the country to see the timber all cleared away. Every man seems to want to take an axe and cut down some tree, but he never thinks of planting another in its stead, and I believe that this practice is to be condemned.
We should have some sort of policy in Canada that would induce the people, if they are not willing to do it freely, to plant trees wherever they cut down timber. This is absolutely necessary for the preservation of our forests and for the purpose of ensuring moisture in the land. I know that in the part of the country from which I come, if you cut down timber and leave the land alone without burning you are bound to have a forest again. That has been my experience with land I have cleared if it was not broken at once. Whenever I have cut timber and left it for a few years, a thick growth of trees springs up. On the prairies, however, it is different; you must plant trees if you want to retain the plantation. I believe that if bonuses are advisable in any direction at all, there could be nothing in connection with which they would be more applicable and useful than in this particular matter.


Mr. MacLEAN (Prince, P.E.I.):: There is no doubt about the importance of taking care of our forests which are being so rapidly destroyed not only by fire and insect pests, but by the lumber men and owners themselves. However, my object in rising just now is to ask the minister what proportion of this
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money for fire prevention is distributed to the different provinces, and whether the province of Prince Edward Island receives anything under this vote? There was a time when the purpose was to cut down the forests as quickly as possible and get the trees out of the way. But that time has long passed, and the people are realizing now the fact that they have destroyed a very valuable asset. The time for undertaking the preservation of what is left of those forests has now arrived, and the people of my province feel that they should receive the same consideration in this matter as the western provinces. I would draw the attention of the government, whether the matter comes directly under this department or under the Department of Agriculutre, to the great destruction that is being caused by insect pests among the shade trees and orchards. I do not think this matter is receiving the attention it deserves. The shade trees are being attacked as well as the orchards, and I am afraid that they will be destroyed completely in the course of a very few years if some very effective methods are not adopted to cope with this menace. I might mention the havoc that has been played among our cherry trees in Prince Edward Island. These trees have been attacked not by the insects that are commonly known to the experts of the Department of Agriculture, but by some pest which has never been discovered, so that the cherry trees of the province have practically all died. Just as the tree blooms the leaves begin to wither, and the cause of this has never been investigated, so far as I know. This involves a serious loss to the province, for these trees are valuable. The minister might inform the committee in what proportion assistance is given to the various provinces for the prevention of fires, and whether anything is given to Prince Edward Island.


Charles A. Stewart: The leader of the Opposition (Mr. Meighen) raised a very difficult point of forest administration, namely, that the natural resources of the provinces are owned and administered by the provinces themselves with the exception of the three prairie provinces and the timber belt of British Columbia, which are Crown lands. The vote for fire purposes and indeed for all other purposes under this item is therefore confined to the area owned by the Crown; it does not apply to the provincial forest reserves, which are operated and taken care of by the provinces. So far as insect pests are concerned, however, this is a matter that comes under the Department of Agri-

culture and has received considerable attention at the hands of the Entomological branch, who have studied the problem altogether irrespective of the locality of any disease.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
For surveys and investigations of water and power resources and for administration of water powers, etc., $330,000.
Joseph Tweed Shaw: Are there any departments
of government which undertake duties similar or related to the duties indicated in this vote? What is the attitude of the government with respect to the water-power privileges in the Banff National park?


Charles A. Stewart: The Water
Powers Board is created by order in council and is given certain well-defined duties: it investigates the potentialities of the water-powers of Canada. I am not positive, but I think we have now made arrangements with every province in Canada in connection with this matter. Of course, the provinces that own their natural resources control their water-powers; but in order that we may have a comprehensive idea of the potentialities of the water-powers in Canada it is the work of this board to investigate, to measure, and in every other way to get accurate information as to where powers are located, what amount of power is available, and so forth. This work is being carried on throughout the whole Dominion. With regard to the second question of my hon. friend, nothing has been done. A good many representations have have been made, pro and con, we have heard a delegation from the power representatives, and the matter will be under consideration by the representatives of our own department on Tuesday next. No decision has yet been arrived at.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: Is any other department of
the government concerned with the administration of water-powers, or does any other department .undertake work similar or related to the work of this department?


Charles A. Stewart: In administration? No.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: Then I understand the situation to be that no other department of government is concerned with water-powers at all.


George Perry Graham: I would not go so far.


Charles A. Stewart: I do not know to what extent my hon. friend means. The Department of Railways and Canals is to some extent interested in water-powers but not in an investigatory capacity.

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Joseph Tweed Shaw: The vote indicates that this department is interested not only in the surveying and investigation of the water and power resources of the Dominion but in the administration of water-powers as well. I want to know whether or not there are any other departments of government interested in any way in connection with water-powers; and, if so, what are the departments?


Charles A. Stewart: The Department of Railways and Canals has authority,
I believe, to lease water-powers. But it is not concerned in measuring water-powers to the extent of controlling them for the purpose of leasing.


James Shaver Woodsworth: After a survey of a water-power has been made how is the information given to the public?


Charles A. Stewart: If any given water-power has been investigated the report is available to the public. That is the object of making the investigation, in order that it may become the property of the public.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I ask entirely as a matter of information. I notice that some large American firms are getting control of a number of water-powers in the West. We in the city of Winnipeg are faced with that situation at the present time in connection with our supply of water-power from the Winnipeg river. What procedure is taken to secure information in regard to new waterpower sites? Is advance information given to any individuals? What is the policy of the government in regard to leasing these powers? In short, how is it that one company can acquire a large number of water-power sites and so more or less control the situation?


Charles A. Stewart: I had better explain to my hon. friend that the provincial governments, where they are in possession of their natural resources, own the water-powers. Therefore the investigatory work on our part is merely to co-ordinate information for the whole of Canada, to get a comprehensive idea of the possibilities of water-power throughout the Dominion. We have not a word to say about who shall get control of the power. I think my hon. friend has in mind the situation of Ontario and Manitoba on the Winnipeg river?


James Shaver Woodsworth: Yes.


Charles A. Stewart: We do not control the leasing of those powers. We have the information as to the power available and that sort of thing, which is of course very valuable, but the Ontario government
owns and controls the water-powers of the province. At least, the Ontario government maintains that it does own them. Perhaps I am going a step too far.


Robert Forke: You are going far enough.


Charles A. Stewart: That is disputed. However, subject to correction, that is the situation. There is an act on the statute books which is contrary to the contention of the Ontario government, for it describes these powers as being for the general advantage of Canada, which of course would bring them under the control of the Dominion government. Personally I have always assumed that the provinces do own their water-powers.


James Shaver Woodsworth: But in the case of those provinces that have not control over their natural resources the Dominion government becomes trustee, I suppose, of the water-powers. What is the policy of the government as to giving information concerning newly discovered water-powers?


Charles A. Stewart: We are prepared to give the fullest information if we have investigated any particular water-power. Our work is not intended for the benefit of any private person, it is for the benefit of the public generally. Take, for example, in the province of Manitoba, we have investigated the -water-powers on the Nelson river and the Winnipeg river; this information is for the benefit of the public.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Coming down to administration, again as a matter of information, on what conditions can a company secure water-power rights? Does the government simply turn these powers over to the first applicant who can give assurance that he will develop them? Or does the government regard these powers as being essentially for the welfare of the whole people and administer them in a broad way for that purpose?


Charles A. Stewart: I think I can answer that question by simply saying "Yes." So far as I have come in contact with any application of this character-I do not recollect more than one-the applicants have had to demonstrate the purpose for which die power is to be used, the quantity of power required, and the period for -which it will be required, because the privilege is not granted to a private interest outright, it is merely leased for a definite period. That is the method by which control of these powers is maintained by the federal government. I do not know what method is pursued by the provincial governments.
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Edward Joseph Garland: Is the government prepared to take into consideration the development of water powers where they own the natural resources?


Charles A. Stewart: That would entail the operation perhaps of a timber or manufacturing industry in the locality. However, there is another aspect that may loom up in the very near future, and that is the electrification of the railways, in which case undoubtedly, with our publicly-owned railway system, the government should be prepared, in my opinion, to retain the water-powers necessary and develop them for this electrification.


Edward Joseph Garland: It was just with that thought in my mind that I made the suggestion to the minister, because it appears to me that if we are to have water powers available for electrification of the National Railway system, the time for the government to act is now, otherwise they will find all the available water powers under the control of private ownership.


Charles A. Stewart: I am speaking now strictly of federally controlled power, because after all it will be small in amount in comparison with the total power required for the electrification of our railways throughout the Dominion, as it is only in the three prairie provinces that we have control of the natural resources. No water powers will be leased there except for a definite purpose; that is, we are not going to simply lease water powers to private individuals to enable them to get control.


Edward Joseph Garland: But have we not already specific instances of that very thing being done?


Charles A. Stewart: There may have been in the past; I am speaking for the immediate future and for last year. I would insist that any lease should be contingent upon the supply of power being utilized for the purpose for which it was leased. I do not think we should decline to lease power to any private individual for legitimate development, but on the other hand, I do say that no more power should be leased to the individual than he actually requires for the purpose intended, and that on no account should control pass out of the Dominion.


Edward Joseph Garland: I simply wish to utter a note of warning to the government in this matter. We anticipate within a few years that electrical power will have developed even to the extent of running some of our railways, and if the government does 
not at once take steps to safeguard these power sites they will find when they require them that they are all in the hands of private owners, who will hold up the government in a manner similar to that of which we have had examples in the past.


Robert Gardiner: What is the term of years for which these leases of power sites are granted? Is there a specified term, or is it an indeterminate lease?


Charles A. Stewart: Regard is had to the use to which the power will be put and the probable duration of the power requirements. In addition, there is provision for the taking back of the power at actual cost at any time. A man may require power for development in connection with his manufacturing concern for, say, twenty-five years. Or take the case that I suppose the hon. member for Centre Winnipeg (Mr. Woodsworth), is ppeaking about, power development for Winnipeg-that undoubtedly will be required for all time to come. I am thinking more particularly of mills and establishments of that character; the provision to which I have referred is inserted in all such leases.


Robert Gardiner: Out in western Canada practically every lease that is issued is transferable. Now, this is a very important point. Does the minister not think the time has arrived when all leases whether grazing leases, coal, timber or power leases, should be made non-transferable so that those who desire to come in and devlop these natural resources will not be held up by speculators for large sums of money?


Charles A. Stewart: With very few exceptions, all classes of leases are made non-tran-ferablc; that is, they cannot be transferred without the consent of the minister. In other words, the transfer cannot be a transaction between two private persons, one holding the lease and the other desirous of getting it.


Robert Gardiner: Does that apply to a situation where a lease has not been developed, or is the minister's consent given only where there has been development?


Charles A. Stewart: It applies to every lease. It is a provision of the lease itself.


Robert Gardiner: I want to enter a protest against the granting of leases in cases where those who received the lease in the first place have done no development work at all, but are simply holding the lease up for the purposes of speculation. I would not have

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so much objection in cases where there had been development and there was a desire to transfer the lease, but where no development has taken place I maintain that it is a wrong principle to permit the transfer. It is my belief that one of the real reasons why our country has not developed as it should have is because the speculative element have got leases for our natural resources and are holding them up so that those who desire to use those natural resources will have to pay large sums of money for them. I would ask the minister to allow this item to stand until after we come here to-night, because the matter is a very important one.
At six o'clock, the Speaker resumed the chair and the House took recess.
After Recess
The House resumed at eight o'clock.



PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 167 (from the Senate), for the relief of Christina Julia Hamilton.-Mr. Simpson.
Bill No. 168 (from the Senate), for the relief of Smith Kain.-Mr. Church.
Bill No. 169 (from the Senate), for the relief of Gladys Malcolm Mushett.-Mr. Shaw.
Bill No. 170 (from the Senate), for the relief of William Francis Rafferty.-Mr. Irvine.
Bill No. 171 (from the Senate), for the relief of Gladys Teague.-Mr. Garland (Carleton).
Bill No. 172 (from the Senate), for the relief of Elizabeth McKinley.-Mr. Chew.
Bill No. 173 (from the Senate), for the relief of Algernon Cecil Aubry Moran.-Mr. Baxter.
Bill No. 174 (from the Senate), for the relief of Emily Adlene McCausland.-Mr. Boys.
Bill No. 178 (from the Senate), for the relief of Winifred Scatcherd.-Mr. Church.
Bill No. 179 (from the Seriate), for the relief of Grace Lees Smiley.-Mr. Boys.
Bill No. 181 (from the Senate), for the relief of James Dunnett.-Mr. Gordon.
Bill No. 182 (from the Senate), for the relief of Laura McBrien.-Mr. Sheard.
Bill No. 183 (from the Senate), for the relief of Chester Abbott Redmond.-Mr. Church.
[Stage Direction]
The House again in Committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
For surveys and investigations of water and power resources and for administration of water-powers, etc., $330,000.
Robert Gardiner: When we rose at six
o'clock we were discussing the possibilities of leasing the water-powers in the three prairie provinces. I should like to bring before the House some information with regard to the manner in which leases, not particularly water leases, but other leases, have operated in this country. First, I say that it is necessary to put into force such regulations as will conserve these water-powers in western Canada for the use of the people, so that we can utilize them. No doubt we hope in the near future that western Canada will develop more rapidly than in the past, and, because of the fact that our water-powers' in that country are strictly limited, it should be necessary to see to it that they are conserved for the use of the people.
I will cite one or two examples of what I mean by conserving the water-powers of Canada, and I am going to present some examples which have occurred recently. About two years' ago there were supposed to be m the Fort Norman field large quantities of oil, and people made a rush to that particular portion of the Northwest Territories for the purpose of taking out oil claims in the distiict. I will tell the House how it worked out in the long run. I will give one example of a man who lived in Edmonton, and perhaps the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Stewart) is well acquainted with this case. This man went to Fort Norman, and I believe it took him about two months to go there and return, at a cost of less than $5,000. He staked out his claim at Fort Norman, came back to Edmonton, registered the claim, and a few days after he had registered it he sold it for $310,000, making a profit of $305,000 for approximately two months' work. The position we take is that that man contributed nothing to the well-being of this country. By using the form of lease that we have at the present time he was enabled to make a large sum of money without contributing one iota to the welfare of Canada. We maintain that those conditions of leasing are not in the best interests of Canada.
This statement is applicable also to our water powers. At the present time there is an oil development in southern Alberta. When I was in Calgary a few days prior to coming to Ottawa for the session, I noticed .in the streets placards advertising oil leases for sale. Hon. members can well understand that those oil leases were offered for sale by men who were speculating in them, and the House will also understand that an operator must pay the price that these speculators demand before he can start operations with these oil leases. That, Mr. Chairman, is not in the best interests
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of Canada, and I believe one of the reasons why Canada has not developed as she should have developed is the fact that we have allowed speculators to monopolize our natural resources to the detriment of the country.
I will give the House another example of something that happened in Alberta. Hon. members will remember that Saskatchewan and Alberta came into the confederation in the year 1905. Parliament at that time thought it advisable to retain the natural resources, not only of these two provinces but also of Manitoba. The federal authority, of course, had to deal with these natural resources. Since 1305, in the province of Alberta, over 800 coal fields have been opened up. Coal leases have been sold by speculators ever since the time that coal leases were available. Coal mines have been opened up to such an extent that five times more coal is mined in Alberta than we can profitably utilize under present conditions. About the year 1913 the Canadian Northern completed its branch line from Saskatoon to Calgary, and the line runs through the Drumheller coal fields. On the first coal that we received from Drumheller we had to pay the construction rate, which was a higher rate than we are paying at the present time. At that particular time we could buy screened coal, for from $4.75 to $5.25 per ton. To-day we cannot buy that coal under $7.75. For what reason? Simply because we have in Alberta five times more coal mines opened up than we actually need. There is, I am told, $50,000,000 invested in coal properties in Alberta alone, and, for the small amount required for western Canada, it means that they have to charge a high price for the coal, in order to take care of the overhead that they have invested in these coal mines. I think it would be good policy if the department over which my hon. friend has control at the present time should take cognizance of conditions, and say whether it is necessary to give leases, for instance, for coal mines, and so forth in Alberta. What is the use of allowing people to put good money into properties that will not be a paying proposition, unless they are in a position to charge more for their product than it is actually worth?
I should like to bring another matter to the attention of the Minister of the Interior. He will remember that in the year 1909 the southern part of Alberta was opened up for settlement. Up to that time this portion to the south had always been reserved, for some reason or other, but the department decided to open up this particular part of southern Alberta. They sent literature to the United States, sent it all over Canada, and to Great
fMr. Gardiner.]
Britain, for the purpose of inducing people to come to that particular section of the country; they advertised that the land was good, that they would have free homesteads, and stated also that you could buy a quarter section of land which was known as the preemption, for $3 an acre. We have had hard conditions there, but the people in that district at the present time believe they could make a success of their enterprise if they had some of the rough land that is around there for community grazing purposes. The minister will remember the Alberta members interviewing him more than once last year for the purpose of trying to get some of these areas opened up for community grazing leases. At the time I was in Calgary prior to coming down for the session I saw advertised in many of the windows in places where they were selling land that grazing leases were for sale. For instance, I might give you a particular case.


The CHAIRMAN:: I should like to draw the attention of the hon. gentleman to the fact that the question of grazing leases can hardly be debated under the item of water and power resources.


Robert Gardiner: I submit to your ruling, but I am leading up to the question, inasmuch as I desire to draw to the attention of the minister the effects of past policy in respect to the manner in which leases have been granted. That applies to water-power leases as well as to grazing leases. I cite these cases merely for the purpose of giving the minister an outline of the situation. When I was in Calgary prior to coming down to this session of parliament, I saw grazing leases there for sale, and if I remember well, there were five thousand acres of leased grazing land. The price that the leased land was offered at was $1.10 an acre. Those who had this particular leased land had a lease on it only for grazing purposes; but because of our system of leases, these get into the hands of speculators and become a speculative proposition, instead of one for the development of Canada. I trust that, with the few examples I have given to the minister, he will try to evolve some different system, wherebv all leases, including water-power leases, shall be issued only to those who are going to use them, and they shall not be made transferable until such time as they have been fairly well developed.


James Shaver Woodsworth: The minister gave it as his opinion that we should continue to regard water-powers as belonging to the various provinces. I am quite aware of the fact that such

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has been the general idea in the past. I do not know how the matter stands from a strictly legal point, even according to the old conception; but I should like to suggest that with the developments which have gone on in connection with the use of electrical power, the time has come when we shall have to alter our opinions in this regard. We have been told that the air is free, and yet within very recent years, with the development of aerial navigation, the whole idea has been absolutely changed, and to-day we have certain conventions with regard to aerial navigation. We also have some very definite regulations with regard to the transmission of messages through the air. That just illustrates the changes that are taking place because of changed conditions brought about by these newer inventions. I submit that recent developments in the electrical world have made necessary some change with regard to our ideas in connection with these water-powers.
I do not desire to-night to anticipate to any extent the debate which is likely to take place with regard to the Lake of the Woods, a bill concerning which is now before the House, but I should like to refer to that very briefly just as illustrating this point and the necessity of altering our policy. I think we all recognize to-day that the question of the electrification of railways must come before us in a practical form in the not distant future. Anyone who knows the northern stretches of Canada must realize the immense possibilities of electrifying our railways without any very serious trouble, if we have control of the water-powers that exist almost from coast to coast across Canada. The fact that we have already as a part of the national property, a great railway system, makes it essential that we look a little bit ahead in this matter. We were told the other day in this House that the children of darkness are wiser in their day and generation than the children of light. It would seem as if some of the private exploiters in this country are a great deal wiser than those who are charged with the administration of our public affairs. Perhaps very naturally we are proceeding on the old idea of local administration and private exploitation of these resources. But when we consider that if we are going to electrify our system, that would have to be done, not by the possession of this, that and the other water-power, but by the possession and exploitation of water-powers over a distance of three thousand miles, then we begin to understand the necessity of taking a different line of action from that which we have taken in the past.
In passing, I should like to call attention to another development which must take
place in the near future, and that is the use of electricity for heating purposes. I was reading only the other day an article dealing with the report of the American government with regard to super-stations. According to that report, it will be feasible in the not distant future to supply great central stations which will provide for the heating of many of our cities. We are considering doing this in my own city of Winnipeg as supplementary to the coal supply. These things are matters that are not simply in the realm of the ideal or speculative; they are rapidly becoming matters of urgent public importance.
I would urge upon the minister that in making these surveys, he do so, not with the thought of securing information that would be available merely for local enterprises, but rather having in view the development of the whole of our electrical power as one great system. The minister a little while ago suggested that he was afraid that if we began to operate some of these water powers, we might have to go into certain industries, [DOT]such as the pulp or the lumber industry. I do not know that that is essential, at least not in the immediate future, because we could do as is done in other places, sell this power to those who are going into these industries. That might be an immediate solution; but I would emphasize that we should regard the whole undertaking as one great system. For instance, the Lake of the Woods is fed by a series of streams, having many water powers, and the Lake of the Woods in turn feeds the Winnipeg river which is the source of our power for the city of Winnipeg. On the other hand, there is tributary to the Winnipeg river the English river which is fed by other lakes, sepecially Lac Seul. All these bodies and streams of water, some in Ontario, some in Manitoba and some along the boundary line between Ontario and the United States, form naturally one unified system, and it is impossible to deal with one particular waterfall. If one attempts to exploit one waterfall, there is great danger that other waterfalls may be interfered with. If one raises the levels on certain lakes, as we all know, that may have a veiy serious effect hundreds of miles away. This has happened in this particular instance and raised questions of international importance, and we have had our International Joint. Commission dealing with the problem. The particular dispute that is to come before this House is an interprovincial proposition. I am not going to go into that matter to-night. To me it is a minor matter as to which province controls the situation. The fact is that neither can adequately develop the water powers without
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having regard to the rights of the other, and the system should be regarded as a unit. Let me offer one particular illustration of how seriously dealing with one part may affect another. In 1922, the town of Sioux Lookout was promised a lease by the Ontario government of the Pelican rapids power site on Lac Seul. This power site is so situated that it can only be of commercial value provided that the water level on Lac Seul is maintained at its normal height, hence t)ie raising of the lake level for regulations and storage purposes destroys Pelican rapids as a power site. The promise of this lease was immediately recognized by Manitoba as a serious menace to the scheme of regulation recommended for adoption, as it sacrificed the development of 160,000 horse power on the English and Winnipeg rivers for a possible 3,000 horse power at Pelican rapids. A net loss of 157,000 horse power to the two provinces.
This illustrates the situation all over the country, and is a matter of urgent public importance, so I suggest that in the making of these surveys we should not regard the problem merely as one of providing for particular private enterprises, but rather should draft a general scheme for the exploitation of water-powers, with their wonderful electrical energy, for the benefit of all the people.


John Millar: I want to ask three or four questions touching this matter, but first of all I want the minister to answer this query: What concessions in the way of water-power have been granted to the adjoining republic by this government in northern Manitoba?


Charles A. Stewart: There was me on the Saskatchewan river, but it has been cancelled. There was also one on the Nelson river over which there has been considerable controversy, and it too has lapsed. At the moment, therefore, there are really no concessions extant in the north of Manitoba. I might say to my hon. friend from Medicine Hat (Mr. Gardiner) with respect to the question of grazing leases, that these leases cannot be transferred except with the consent of the minister. Upon the expiry of a lease we notify the provincial government, who undertake the work of community grazing; and this is done in Alberta and Saskatchewan. In Saskatchewan there is a ranch being utilized for this purpose. If the provincial government desires land for community grazing, then the lease is held for that purpose.


Robert Gardiner: I understand that this is not the case. I have had interviews with the officers of the department who inform 
me that the Justice department interpreted one of the sections of the regulations - to give preference to the owner to renew the lease within four years of its expiry.


Charles A. Stewart: That is true; that applies to the owners. But we have an arrangement with the Alberta goverjnment whereby, when a lease expires, we transfer it to the provincial government for community grazing, unless the lessee renews the lease; and this is not very often done. It is news to me to learn that there has been trafficking in grazing leases. I was not aware of the fact, but I take my hon. friend's word for it. Evidently someone must have been endeavouring to dispose of leases in that way. With respect to water-powers, practically 80 per cent of what is stated to be desirable has already been done. The controversy between Manitoba and Ontario is a considerable one and will come up for discussion, no doubt, when the bill proposed by the Minister of Justice (Sir Lomer Gouin) is under consideration. I am not going to touch that question to-night, because I shall probably have something to say about it later on. But that is one of the difficulties we have to contend with.


John Millar: In view of the answer given by the minister with regard to water-power concessions cancelled in northern Manitoba, is there any concession granted by this government in Ontario near the boundary of Manitoba? I was talking with a friend a year and a-half ago and he told me there had just been granted a very valuable concession in the way of water-power and pulp wood in northern Manitoba, as I understood. It might have been- in Ontario.


Charles A. Stewart: The officer informs me that there are none except at Great Falls on the Winnipeg river, to the Manitoba Power Company.


John Millar: Is that the one?


Charles A. Stewart: No, that is the closest one to the Ontario boundary.


John Millar: Is that the company whose territory was extended and over which there was a discussion in the House on a former occasion?


Charles A. Stewart: No. My hon. friend asked me what concession had been granted close to the Ontario boundary. That is the closest one to the boundary.


Mr. KENNEDY (Edmonton):: What is the meaning of "investigations of water and power

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resources"? Does that include underground water such as well water?


Charles A. Stewart: No, that is under the supervision of Mr. Dowling of the Geological branch.


Mr. COOTE:: Has the minister's department any jurisdiction over the water-powers in Ontario and Quebec? Do I understand that all this money is spent in Alberta and Saskatchewan?


Charles A. Stewart: No; I explained that this afternoon. We are making an investigation, measuring the possibilities in every province, and we have an agreement with the provinces to facilitate this work. We do not control the water-powers; we simply investigate and find out the possibilities of water-power throughout Canada as a whole.


George Gibson Coote: Is this government reimbursed by the provinces for that work?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
For the investigation of the fuel and power resources of the Dominion and for the expenses of the Dominion Power Board, $10,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: I thought we had a vote for this board the other day under another item.


Charles A. Stewart: This is special work that was started before my time. It consists in an investigation of the St. Lawrence river which is carried out by two engineers of the department, Mr. H. A. Mat-thewson. and Mr. A. B. Lamb, who are engaged in a study of the St. Lawrence river power and navigation project. The expenses of the investigation are charged up to this item.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Have they anything to do with fuel?


Charles A. Stewart: I do not know why fuel should have been included in the item; I have been asking that question myself.


Edward Joseph Garland: Mr. Chairman, did the minister explain the word "fuel"?


Charles A. Stewart: I was asking why that word came in. It should not be there. Mr. Challies himself is on the Fuel Investigation Board for which we passed a vote in the Mines branch. The word "fuel" should be eliminated. This is purely an investigation of the St. Lawrence canal scheme with respect to the power possibilities in the event of the scheme being undertaken.


Edward Joseph Garland: Why not
put that item under the preceding one? It covers very much the same work.


Charles A. Stewart: I think my hon. friend is correct about that, but evidently this is the way the item was started and it has not been changed. If it was to be continued, I agree with him it should all go in the one item.


George Gibson Coote: Has the power board made any investigation of the possible water-power which might be developed in the Highwood river?


Charles A. Stewart: The officers are not sure that they made a thorough investigation of the Highwood river, but they suggest the power would be very small judging by the flow-although I see by to-night's paper they are having a considerable flow there these days.


Mr. HOCKEN:: Has any report been
made by the Dominion Power Board on the St. Lawrence power possibilities?


Charles A. Stewart: No. A report was made by the International Joint Commission, and in discussing this with Mr. Challies he mentioned that a careful investigation might disclose several inaccuracies in that report, although he was not reflecting upon the report itself. Indeed, that is one of the difficulties we have to contend with, that we have not any definite knowledge of the possibilities of the scheme.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: I presume this is to check up the report of the International Joint Commission. In this connection, I hope the government will study the project seriously, because it is of very great importance to the province of Ontario that exactly what is possible there in water-power development should be known.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My memory is that this vote was started largely for the purpose of getting data so that Canada's representatives would have something definite to go on in connection with the St. Lawrence scheme when they appeared before the International Joint Commission. I think the vote was a good deal larger formerly.


Charles A. Stewart: My recollection is that it was the same.
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Henry Lumley Drayton: It was a larger vote for the purpose of securing data to be used for that inquiry.


Charles A. Stewart: The vote
covered the work of the board generally. Is it the power board my hon. friend is speaking about, or the direct investigation of the St. Lawrence possibilities?


Henry Lumley Drayton: Yes.


Charles A. Stewart: Two men are engaged on that work this year.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What are they doing now?


Charles A. Stewart: When the matter was introduced last year by the hon. member for North Toronto (Mr. Church) I discussed it with Mr. Challies, and I learned then that we had two men engaged on this work continuously checking the report of the engineers of the International Joint Commission, investigating the backflow that appears to be in evidence here, particularly at what would be the mouth of the canal, and the power possibilities for the purpose my hon. friend has pointed out.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Can we look forward to an interim report? Because I should like to get the data as soon as possible.


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, we
could get a report of the situation as it is up-to-date.


Henry Lumley Drayton: In the near
future?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: How long is it going to take to check this up? These men have been at it now for a year. Surely the work ought to be done by now. Is it a continuous job so that these men may be kept on whether there is anything to be done or not?


Charles A. Stewart: No, I would not say that. It is difficult for a layman to state how much has been accomplished by these men. My hon. friend will agree, however, that accurate information should be had in connection with this project and the power possibilities, because it is a tremendously big undertaking and some day undoubtedly Canada will have to come to a decision about it. I shall be glad to get an interim report in respect to what they have discovered up to date. It should not take more than this year to thoroughly check up the whole thing.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: I quite agree with the minister that it is very important for us to get

accurate information, but I would be somewhat critical of a couple of engineers who have been working at this so long and as yet have made no report. I do not pose as a technical man, but it seems to me two years ought to be sufficient to check up a report of that kind.


John Millar: I understand the report of the International Joint Commission dealt only with the water-power on the part of the St. Lawrence which flows between Canada and the United States.


Charles A. Stewart: My hon.
friend's information is at fault; the report included both the Canadian and American.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
For surveys and inspections in connection with the administration of the Irrigation Act, etc., $200,000.
Mr. KELLNER:: What irrigation project is this?


Charles A. Stewart: No new
work in irrigation surveys was undertaken; they are practically completed with the exception of the centre Alberta irrigation scheme, which embraces the area north of the Red Deer river through the constituency of the hon. member for Medicine Hat (Mr. Gardiner) and the Bow river valley. I concluded, however, that the surveys had gone to that point where we could get an indication of the probable cost of the project and that it would not be necessary to continue the lateral surveys. Our vote this year is to pay for the completion of the various projects and meet the cost of the staff in Calgary. We spend $54,945 in Calgary, for the permanent staff and $40,335 for the field staff. The permanent staff at Ottawa, which takes care of both reclamation and irrigation, takes $10,470 and the field surveys and experimental and demonstration work, $88,060. Then, there are the travelling expenses of officers of the staff, amounting to $11,510; equipment at Calgary, instruments, camp equipment, transport, and so on which are required yearly, $4,280; expenses of office at Ottawa, $10,400, total, $200,000 this year for both services.


Donald Ferdinand Kellner: Do I understand from
the minister that the federal government makes the surveys in all these various projects that are under way in Alberta?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, they
made all the original surveys.


Donald Ferdinand Kellner: What is meant by the words in the item, "administration of the Irrigation act"?

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Charles A. Stewart: That is for field inspection, surveys, etc. There has been some demonstration work; at Brooks in southern Alberta we have a farm on which demonstration work has been carried on, to indicate proper methods of putting the water on the land and generally how best to run an irrigated farm.


Donald Ferdinand Kellner: Is that a Dominion
government farm?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Donald Ferdinand Kellner: I understood they were
called experimental farms. I notice you refer to them as demonstration farms.


Charles A. Stewart: It is an
experimental station, but it is under the control of the Irrigation branch for irrigation purposes alone.


Mr. JELLIFF:: I hope no one will question for a minute this item of expenditure; it is one of the most important items that appears in this whole list. It is an attempt by the Dominion government to accomplish work in southern Alberta that should
9 p.m. have been accomplished before settlers were ever admitted there. When we came into that southern Alberta country in the early years it seemed to us that we had everything that nature could give us to make it a successful farming district. We had as rich soil as could be found anywhere on earth. The settlers who came in there had the necessary capital with which to go to work, and they had implements and equipment. They had intelligence; they had the industry, and they had above all else the glorious sunshine of that country. The people in the northern part of the province apparently do not have as much of the sunshine that we glory in. All these things combined, however, were of little effect, we found as the years went on, without water. Water was king, but an absent king in that southern country.
Now the government has been aiding us to the limited extent of providing for the necessary general and preliminary survey work to determine the quantity and source of our water supply and to lay out the systems which would help us to bring that water on to the land so that we would have all the elements necessary for a permanent and profitable agriculture. That has been the whole purpose of the government work, and the amount expended to that end is not a drop in the bucket when you think of the importance of placing agriculture in that country on a firm and dependable foundation.
Let me illustrate that: Take one of our wet years-for we have wet years in that country. The district that was covered by a survey board that went over that country in 1921, known as the drought area-that district in 1915 shipped out 41,000,000 bushels of grain. That was a wet year. In the following year, 1916, 37,000,000 bushels were shipped out; the drought period had begun to come on. In the next year, 1917, there was comparatively little moisture in the soil and our shipments dropped to 18,000,000 bushels. The drought continued; in 1918 our shipments dropped to 5,000,000 bushels1, and in 1919 to 4,000,000. Not only was the output of our grain affected to that marked extent, but at the same time the forage of that country became depleted; there was no feed for the stock, so that there waS a heavy loss in all the branches of stock raising as well as in our grain production. These losses have involved also the loss of hundreds of thousands of dollars to the Dominion of Canada, to its railways, to its banks, to all the various commercial factors connected with the business of farming.
The work covered by this vote was an attempt on the part of the Dominion government to help us correct these difficulties due to lack of moisture. We have gone ahead with this minimum of assistance and have developed large irrigation areas. In the first place we had to start with the old A. R. and I, area, comprising about 130,000 acres, and later we developed the Taber area, comprising 17,000 acres.
We have just recently completed the Lethbridge northern irrigation district of 105,000 acres. We have laid out besides a district running south of Macleod and embracing 60,000 acres. We have completed the United Irrigation project of 23,000 acres west of Cards-ton. All over that country people are at work endeavouring to overcome the difficulties which nature has placed in their way from lack of water or moisture, and this is but a minimum of expenditure on the part of the government in helping us to overcome those difficulties. I hardly believe that a word is necessary from anybody in this House to sanction this expenditure on the part of the federal government. It is not only essential to the welfare of the farmers there, but it is necessary to the upkeep of your transportation agencies, necessary for the success of the merchant, of the banks, and of all business interests throughout that district. Had I known this item was coming up this evening I think I would have talked to you for about an hour and a half or two hours as some of our friends do on this side, but

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it is so apparent that this expense is entirely wise on the part of the federal government that I scarcely feel it is necessary to add another word.


Donald Ferdinand Kellner: I do not wish to criticize the vote at all in view of what my colleague from Lethbridge says but as I understand it these surveys always precede the work. The minister said there are no new projects contemplated or under way. Why is it that surveys'need to go on after the work on the undertaking has started?


Charles A. Stewart: When I say that no new work is contemplated or no new works are to be started it does not mean that the works that are being examined are completed. There is completion work to be done on one or two of them. As a matter of fact, I do not know any area in the province of Alberta at the moment that is not surveyed-that is where it would be possible to irrigate. We are simply completing the work that has been undertaken.


Edward Joseph Garland: What is the situation with regard to the irrigation project known as the William Pearce, or the Northern' Saskatchewan?


Charles A. Stewart: I spoke of it a moment ago. However, I will tell my hon. friend that we have a report on that project which would indicate that it is feasible. It will cost in the neighbourhood of $50,000,000 and embraces a considerable area of the province of Saskatchewan north of the Red Deer river. There is still a considerable amount of preliminary survey work to be done. For example none of the laterals have been surveyed, just the main ditch and proving the feasibility of the scheme. In view of the fact that it will involve such a huge expenditure I thought it was premature to expend money on survey work until there was some likelihood of the scheme being gone on with.


Edward Joseph Garland: Do I understand the survey work on that project has ceased?


Charles A. Stewart: Except to the extent of proving the scheme feasible and its probable cost.


Edward Joseph Garland: There is no more surveying going on there then?


Charles A. Stewart: None this year.


Edward Joseph Garland: What is the amount that will be spent in the province of Alberta under this item?


Charles A. Stewart: It is practically all spent there. I gave the items a moment ago. They will be in Hansard.


Henry Lumley Drayton: This is almost entirely an Alberta project, in fact it was started, as I recollect, some years ago, I forget the exact year, for the purpose of showing the province, what could be done, where the money could be spent to the best advantage, and how these arid lands could be made fertile? The idea always was that we should be in advance of the work of the province. I wanted to find out from my hon. friend whether we are still properly in advance of the province's work?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes. I do not know of any other project except a small scheme that might be undertaken by private individuals for their own particular benefit as to which we have also been giving advice. In such a case as that it is not a very costly process. One man can take the levels and ascertain whether or not a private individual, or three or four individuals, could have a small scheme of their own. Outside of that the province is well covered.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Reclamation of Dominion lands by drainage, (including revote of $36,000), $129,000.
Donald MacBeth Kennedy: What is the policy of the department with regard to the reclaiming of these lands? In my own constituency there is quite a number of reclamation projects that have been surveyed. Some have been handed over apparently to private individuals with the understanding that they reclaim the land, while others have simply been surveyed and nothing done. Is it the minister's intention to have these lands reclaimed by the government, for instance the one at Lesser Slave lake, or simply adopt a waiting attitude for the present?


Charles A. Stewart: The Slave river project, I think, is what my hon. friend has reference to.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: That is one of them.


Charles A. Stewart: The Slave river is navigable and comes under the jurisdiction of the Public Works department. I cannot give my hon. friend information as to what can be done, although I know that application has been made to the department for surveys to determine the probable cost of straightening the river and lowering the level of the lake.

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Donald MacBeth Kennedy: There is another at High Prairie west of Dewar. Then there is also one south of Entwistle.


Charles A. Stewart: High
Prairie? That is off Slave lake.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Yes.


Charles A. Stewart: There were surveys made by our department there last year.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: What is the intention in regard to those lands? They cannot be homesteaded. Is it intended to reclaim the lands and then sell them?


Charles A. Stewart: I might say I have gone over this several times. I do not know ,what the attitude of the department was in the past with respect to this work but this is our present attitude: We will do the initial survey work and prove the scheme. We are glad to undertake that responsibility and expense just as we do in irrigation work, but when it comes to the actual carrying out of the scheme either the municipality or the province, preferably the province, would have to undertake the supervision of the work because they are close to the scene and will know the value of the work much better than the Dominion government would. There is a good deal to be said about draining areas that are Crown lands prior to settlement. Most of these lands, with the exception of some projects that are under way, such as the Carrot river scheme, are a considerable distance from railway facilities. The sending of people into these new areas where there are no railway facilities does not appear to be good business, when we have such a large amount of land lying within reasonable distance of a railway. If the province cares to undertake projects of that sort we have an arrangement with both Saskatchewan and Alberta to turn the Crown lands that may be involved in any of these schemes over to them, the lands to be sold on a basis similar to the provisions that govern the sale of school lands at a fixed price per acre.


Henry Lumley Drayton: How much was spent last year?


John Millar: I want to say a word in regard to the matter the minister touched on. It seems to me many of our difficulties particularly the railway difficulty have been brought about by spreading our settlement over too large a territory. A group of people have been encouraged to go into a district, perhaps good enough in itself but far removed from railway facilities, and of course, in a
219 J
short time they are asking for railways. I was glad to hear him say that it did not look like good business to encourage people to settle in districts far removed from railways. I think the department should incline to the policy of consolidating our settlement, rather than spreading it out.


Charles A. Stewart: In answer to the question of the hon. member for West York, the amount spent last year was $170,000. I may say we are cutting down this work and we will not require that much this year.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What did we get for that money last year? Where is the work going on?


Charles A. Stewart: There was work at Waterhen lake in Saskatchewan and in the Carrot river district in Manitoba. Those two projects referred to are still incomplete.


Mr. HUMPHREY:: Would the minister say what progress has been made in regard to reclaiming what has been termed the Kootenay flats in the Creston district? It is an international question, I believe. There is an area of 70,000 acres that ought to be reclaimed. What progress has been made in the last year?


Charles A. Stewart: We have not done anything on any of these projects. Would it be the work of the provincial government the hon. member refers to? They have the Sumas lake project, and they have the project at Chilliwack.


Levi William Humphrey: This project is located in the eastern part of British Columbia, bordering on the state of Idaho. It is an area of 70,000 acres. Half of it is in British Columbia and half in Idaho. There has been a good deal of correspondence in the last ten years, I think.


Charles A. Stewart: That would be in the territory controlled by British Columbia. All the area we would be operating in would be the block on each side of the railway.


Levi William Humphrey: I believe it has developed into an international question, and the negotiations would have to be carried out by the federal government. Certain negotiations have been in progress for years between the Canadian and United States governments, and, if possible, I would like to find out what progress was made along that line last year. Up to a year ago, I had a copy of the return of the progress made in previous years and I believe it was left to the federal government to carry on the negotiation with
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the United States government, but, as far as the work that has been done is concerned, it has been between the province of British Columbia and the state of Idaho. I believe they are being held back awaiting certain negotiations to be carried out by the federal government.


Charles A. Stewart: This particular branch of the government's service knows nothing about it. I will get any information we may have with respect to any negotiation between our government and the government of the United States.


Levi William Humphrey: I realize that this matter probably does not come directly under this vote, but I was at a loss to know under what vote it did come. I do not think it is under Dominion Lands although the Dominion government has certain jurisdiction.


Donald Ferdinand Kellner: Are there any reclamation nrojects where there is a contract with private ndividuals, or is the department carrying jut all these projects in the way the minister suggested a little while ago?


Charles A. Stewart: I did not atch the question. Did the hon. member ask f we were making contracts?


Donald Ferdinand Kellner: Yes. I asked if there were any contracts?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, in
Saskatchewan.


Donald Ferdinand Kellner: None in Alberta?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canadian national parks and historic sites, $1,250,980.
Lewis Herbert Martell: I would like to have something definite from the minister as to whether the department is prepared to have an independent board of managers control, for public purposes, lands which are not used for historic sites but on which historic sites have been erected. Would the minister consider the use of lands given for historic sites as playgrounds, so long as there was no interference with the particular portion used for the historic site? I want something definite on that, right away, on behalf of my town.


Charles A. Stewart: If the hon.
member will get his municipality to make an application we will be very glad to give hem for the use free of charge this particular area or any land we are not utilizing for the definite purpose of placing memorials and whatever may be necessary in connection with those memorials.


Lewis Herbert Martell: With all due deference, I do not think the municipalities are particularly concerned. We are a public body of citizens making application, the best citizens of the community. Will the minister put these sites in the hands of a committee who will safeguard the matter, under a lease from the minister, on proper terms to be set forth by the minister? In my constituency we have four or five municipalities, East Hants, West Hants, Hantsport and other places seeking incorporation. In cases where there are twenty-eight or twenty-nine acres of land, where an acre or two would embrace all the historic sites, we ask that the public citizens of the town be entitled to have a committee appointed to manage the remaining lands in the interests of children and to provide playgrounds. The site in my town is the best sliding ground for children in the winter time, and in summer it is a fine place for children to play. I do not think any official of the department should have the right to say to the young children who are playing there "Get off the ground" or "Do this" or "Do that", because this is an historic site, and I want to get a direct understanding from the minister that when we make an application to him we will have a right to use the lands that are not absolutely necessary for the historic sites, not leased because we are not prepared to pay anything for them. A poor man like myself could not pay any money for them.
What I want is that the children shall have the right to use this land as a play ground, for a toboggan slide in the winter time, as a place in the summer to put their tents, and in every way for them to be accorded the proper rights for youngsters who want to get out and play. We may all be men, and we are apt, when we ask for things, to stick too much to technical rules. I do not want to recite the old poem of "The Children" and that sort of thing; but on behalf of the citizens of that town, I want to apply to the Minister of the Interior, under whose administration this matter comes, to have the land which is not used specifically for the site allocated under a proper committee for play grounds for the children. I want a definite answer.


Mr. WALLACE:: Will the minister inform the committee as to how much of this appropriation is for marking historical sites?


Lewis Herbert Martell: If my hon. friend will
permit me, I should like to have a definite answer from the minister. I do not want to go to the department when parliament has prorogued and to be told that this is the rule,

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the law; that the other regulation has to be abided by. We are prepared to accept every reasonable regulation, but what we want is something definite. If my hon. friend thinks he is going to put me aside in that way, he is far astray. I want to see fair play for the children. I have youngsters of my own, and I want to see the children of to-day in my town get what I will demand for my youngsters one or two years hence. I want play grounds for them.


Charles A. Stewart: Let me say
for the information of my hon. friend, that many of the speeches that have been made in this House this evening have been pointed directly at the preservation of these very grounds, the preservation of the property of the Crown for the purposes of the Crown. I have no particular objection to the hon. gentleman or his friends; I think they would be perfectly reliable and responsible. That is not the suggestion at all. But in the past it has come to my notice that grounds of this character, that ought of necessity to be preserved for the public interest, have been secured by private people who have then proceeded to exploit the public. Therefore, there is only one safe course for the department to pursue, and that is to have the municipality behind any application of this sort. Then one knows that the public interest will be preserved in connection with matters of this kind.


Lewis Herbert Martell: With all due deference
to the opinion of the minister, there may be a divergence of opinion. Sometimes in small towns there are members of council who have no children or whose families are grown up, and who have absolutely no sympathy with children on that account. We find that in connection with school boards. The men on them are mature; their families are grown up, and they have no regard for the fellow with a young family growing up. I do not think the minister should impose any condition as regards municipalities stating what should or should not be done. As long as the minister is satisfied that the proper portion necessary for historical purposes is conserved, where it is shown by responsible citizens that they are prepared to see that the balance is set aside for playgrounds, that should be done. Nobody is going to exploit the public in a small place like mine; but municipal councils move slowly; often they are actuated by politics, and the children suffer. There are twenty-eight or twenty-nine acres on this site in the town of Windsor. I do not want any municipality or anybody else to control it; I want to go to the minister and to be
able to say to him:	Here is a place, old
Fort Edward in Windsor; you can fence up a couple of acres on which the old block house and other places stood; but let the children have the balance for toboggan slides to play in the winter. We do not call them toboggan slides in country places. It is only in Ottawa where the ministers of the Crown reside that they are called toboggan slides. We in the country places call them ordinary slides; that is all. Then, in the summer time let us have some place where the children can put their tents. I will guarantee to the minister that there will be no politics in the matter; that only the children will be provided for. If the minister will ask me to-day, 1 will give him the names of three people in my town, two of whom are opponents, one an active opponent of mine, and others who will manage this place because they have children the same as I have. Men with families which are grown up have no right to deny to a man who has youngsters, or who expects one day to enjoy looking at his youngsters around him, the right of having a playground for his children, nor to tie up the matter with a great deal of red tape. If there is anything of that sort, I am going to oppose this item. No municipal, control for me.


John Alexander Wallace: I should like to know how much of this appropriation is for the marking of historic sites, and what historic sites the government propose to mark this year.


Charles A. Stewart: Twenty-five thousand dollars.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Before I conclude, I want an answer. If the children are not entitled to be represented here, I am their representative.


John Alexander Wallace: Can the minister inform the committee as to how far advanced the work is on the cairn which is being erected at Port Dover to mark the wintering site of Fathers Dollier and Galinee?


Charles A. Stewart: The contract for the cairn is let at Port Dover at a cost of $600, including a wharf, I believe.


Lewis Herbert Martell: May I ask the minister what I am to expect? I want for Fort Edward, in the town of Windsor, apart from the site which is absolutely necessary for public purposes, a park to be placed under the direction of a proper committee for the use of the children. I am not going to w'aive that issue, and I want a direct answ'er. I am not asking that the whole thing be set aside for a few people to get together, say in the city of Hali-

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fax or any other place, to recite fancy papers about what Sir John So-and-So said years and years ago. That is all very fine. If they will see what has been done in the town of Windsor at Fort Edward by allowing physical training in the good free air of Nova Scotia, they will realize that that is a great deal better than having Colonel Edwards or some of the historic commiteee come from Ottawa and do a lot of fancy work. I am going to oppose this appropriation unless I get a definite answer.


Charles A. Stewart: I am sure that I would almost take the word of the hon. gentleman for the preservation of child life in Windsor. All the hon. gentleman need do is for him and his friends to go to the municipality, and surely the municipal authorities will be public-spirited enough to back up a project of this kind. He is not asking for any money from them; he is not asking for any assistance in a financial way. Surely they will be quite willing to join him in the matter. That is all I ask. We ask for no money; we will give them all the ground except the small quantity required for the purposes of the site, to utilize as they see fit, to make toboggan slides or skating rinks, or ski-ing places, or any mortal thing they wish. But as I pointed out to him before, not that I have any objection to him or his associates, I must be definite that we must have the municipality behind all projects of this kind. Let me give the committee an instance in Saskatchewan. After I came into office in this government, I found, with the best intentions in the world, three gentlemen had got possession of the shore line in a certain locality. The municipality had a portion of it. When the municipality wished to extend, they found that these three gentlemen held privileges there, and we had a great deal of difficulty in getting them to surrender to the municipality. It is only because I am more insistent than the hon. gentleman that child life and the playgrounds be protected, that I am asking that the municipality be behind the project.


Lewis Herbert Martell: With all due deference
to the minister, I beg to say that applications were made in the past, and through too much red tape in his department, for which I do not blame him, because it was prior to his administration, the people could not get their request granted. It seems that a few people in Ottawa, who happen to have some high-falutin ideas of what is right and wrong, are going to be allowed to rule the whole country. Now, what is good in Saskatchewan is not necessarily good in Nova Scotia; for example, my hon. friend would not have many 
supporters in the latter province. Applications have been made time and again from the province of Nova Scotia to have Fort Edward in the town of Windsor converted into a public playground, and we are told to-day that we must go to the municipality. The minister does not know our conditions. We have several, municipalities in my county; at least, there are two municipalities, East Hants and West Hants', together with the corporation of the town of Windsor and the corporation of Hantsport. The minister does not know how we run things there, nor have his officials any idea of our conditions. I say this with all respect to the minister. But we do not wish to have a few people in Ottawa think that they can drive things down our throat. Whether the minister gives it or not, I say that there are twenty-eight or twenty-nine acres in the heart of the town of Windsor that can be converted to the purpose proposed; a fence can be placed around the old block house of the fort so that the children might have a playground. I can name persons in the town who are in favour of this scheme. Mr. H. W. Sangster, an opponent of mine who ran in the election, and my hon. friend Dr. Baxter, from St. John, are interested in it. The latter gentleman has been very much interested in the matter, because he has children, as I have also. His children, however, are grown-up while mine are not; and speaking in behalf of those similarly circumstanced, I say that we should not be held down by rigid rules and regulations, drawn up by people sitting in offices in Ottawa, which shall deprive us of this right to which we are entitled. I do not want to see any vote passed to-night that will provide for the appointment of certain officials in Ottawa who do not know anything about our local conditions, to prevent us from having a proper request granted.


John Millar: Will the minister explain
the very large increase in this item?


Charles A. Stewart: The increase of $284,480 is made up of a variety of items. On August 1, 1923, the Bankhead Mines plant which has supplied electric current for Banff will close down and the department has to install an electric plant. There is an item of $150,000 for this purpose. All these expenditures, I might explain, are charged, rightly or wrongly, to revenue account. There is no capitalized expenditure; the system is "pay as you go." Sanitary conditions at Canmore, a town in the Banff park, are bad on account of polluted wells. It is' proposed to expend $17,000 there to meet the situation. The Canadian National Railway is carrying on an extensive campaign to attract tourist business

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to Jasper Park and the department is cooperating by proceeding with development work which will make Jasper's attractions accessible. The new road programme provides for an increase of $45,750. There is also an item of $5,000 to build a golf course at Jasper. The commercial value of a tourist naturally is increased by lengthening his stay, and experience has shown that a golf course is very effective in this connection. It is expected that 1,000 buffalo will be slaughtered at Buffalo park next winter. An appropriation of $13,000 is being made to provide suitable buildings for the slaughtering operations and the care of the meat. The range at Buffalo park is now not equal to the demand on it in consequence of the increase in the buffalo. It is proposed to expend $6,000 fencing in additional lands now belonging to the park.
The range at Elk Island has also become too limited for the buffalo, elk and moose herds there. An extension of the park into the Cooking Lake Forest Reserve has been arranged for. This will require 22 miles of fencing and, with fireguards, and so forth, will cost about $40,000.
Waterton Lakes park is visited by very large numbers of campers, chiefly Canadians from Alberta. It is proposed to spend $11,500 on a water supply for the townsite and campsites and to improve conditions at the campsites. There are now so many visitors there that it is feared the water in the lake may at any time become contaminated and unfit for drinking.


James Shaver Woodsworth: At Banff the Canadian Pacific Railway has a most profitable tourist traffic, largely because of its hotel. The fact has sometimes struck me, when I have visited the place, that the park is maintained in no small degree for the benefit of the company, who have been able to erect this large hotel on the line of the railway. What tax is the Canadian Pacific Railway paying for this great privilege?


Charles A. Stewart: The administration of a municipality such as Banff is rather difficult, and we have to co-operate largely with the provincial authoritites. So far there has been no power of taxation; we apply the licensing system to the lots which are practically all on the same basis. We have no power to tax but we charge water rates, light rates and so forth. [DOT] That is a matter in regard to which we shall endeavour to come to an arrangement with the provincial government.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I suggest that since the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) is
exploring new fields of taxation there is one that lies close at hand there. I do not know what the profits are from that great hotel, but I do know that there is a very heavy tourist traffic there, and an immense amount of advertising of the place is carried on throughout the whole world. We have spent an enormous sum on the park, which is maintained largely for the benefit of that hotel. There are similar hotels in the vicinity and a certain number of people travel by motor car to the park. But on the whole this large corporation is the chief beneficiary, and it seems to me we have a perfect right to see that a certain part of the revenue comes back to the state.


Charles A. Stewart: We have the Banff park in fairly good condition, and I think that in order to direct traffic along the Canadian National line we should begin to make expenditures in the parks through which our own railways run. I do not know that the rates the hotel charges are unreasonable, but even the rates they charge tourists will pay them very handsome profits on the hotel investment. Of course the park is a great attraction for tourists and brings business to the railway.


James Shaver Woodsworth: If they do not get it directly out of the hotel they get it indirectly out of the railway.


Robert Gardiner: It was stated that the item included a sum for providing an electric light plant at Banff. Was that work let by tender?


Charles A. Stewart: The excavation and the general labouring work has been carried on by day labour under the supervision of our own engineers at the park, but all the plant has been purchased by tender.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Will the minister kindly answer my question as to whether or not if the people desire to have a park for the children at Fort Edward, that they shall have authority to enclose the ground, apart from the historic portion, on making proper representations to the minister without reference to the officials in his department?


Charles A. Stewart: I promise my hon. friend that if he will have the mayor of Windsor come to me as the official representative of the town the whole matter will be settled in five minutes.


Lewis Herbert Martell: You will grant us that right?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.
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Mr. MaeLEAN (Prince, P.E.I.): The estimates we are passing to-night are largely for the western provinces. Sometimes we in the East wonder a little at the large expenditures on this account, but we understand that the natural resources of the three prairie provinces have not yet been handed over to the provincial authorities, and therefore the Dominion government is under obligation to take care of certain works. However, I hope when the time comes for these natural resources to be turned over to the prairie provinces the eastern provinces will receive something in return, if not by way of compensation for our equity in those natural resources, at least something in lieu of the expenditures made by the federal government from time to time.
We have a lot of pretty little sites in the Maritime provinces where public parks could be laid out to which a large tourist traffic might be attracted, thus benefiting both the province itself and the Canadian National Railway. A large number of people of this beautiful city come down in the summer time to our seaside resorts,, and I believe that a little government assistance towards the laying out and beautifying of parks, such as has been done in other places, would greatly increase our tourist traffic. I hope the minister in looking over the different provinces will not pass by the "little island province" down by the sea.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: I am rather amazed at the suggestion made by the last speaker. If he will examine the Estimates I think he will find that the West has considerable ground for grievance in so far as expenditures in western Canada are concerned as compared with those in eastern Canada. The expenditure in this particular case of $150,000 on an electric lighting plant for the town of Banff is an absolute necessity.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Why do they not go to the local government?


Joseph Tweed Shaw: The minister has already indicated that by reason of the failure of the government to give the people there municipal powers, they cannot themselves function as a municipality at all; they have not the necessary legislative jurisdiction.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Why do they not go to the local government?


Joseph Tweed Shaw: It is not a question of going to the local government. These lands are reserved by the Dominion government as a national park, and the local government have no jurisdiction. But that is not what I want

to speak about for the moment. An electric lighting plant is an absolute necessity owing to the fact that the old plant has been closed down. You cannot leave the people in darkness. According to the last census Banff has a population of something over two thousand, and during the tourist season I am sure it must be increased by several thousands more. An adequate lighting plant must be maintained for the convenience of these people. I regret the minister did not see fit to have the work done by tender. I think it would have been desirable to call for tenders, with the stipulation that the all-the-year-round inhabitants of the town of Banff and the neighbourhood should be given an opportunity to do whatever work they could handle. I think that would have been desirable because in the winter time the people are to a large extent isolated from other sections of the country.
The minister has suggested a very interesting problem-the municipal government of these small towns within the park area. As I said before, this land was reserved some thirty or forty years ago for a national park. The communities within the park area have no authority to organize themselves in the regular way. I think the late administration formulated a policy by which a considerable measure of local government was granted to these people, which is desirable, and the policy has been continued by this government. I think the power of the local authorities should be enlarged to the fullest possible extent. I do not know any method of governing people satisfactorily other than by letting them govern themselves. Certainly they should not be governed from Ottawa in connection wtih their local affairs. It is true that under some arrangement-I do not know how it is worked-these people have a right to tax themselves for school purposes. However, I think that in regard to municipal government they should be given the widest possible latitude in order that they may attend effectively to their own local affairs.
There is one other suggestion I want to make. I agree with the hon. member for Hants (Mr. Martell) that we have altogether too much government from Ottawa. Undoubtedly the tendency during- the next few years is going to be towards decentralization in government.


Lewis Herbert Martell: dear, hear.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: I think the Parks Commissioner should be located out in western Canada where the main area of the national parks is situated. Hon. members may be

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surprised to know that of the national parks and historic sites in Canada, comprising altogether approximately eight thousand square miles, only one hundred and sixty
acres are located in eastern Canada, these being composed largely of historic sites such as that indicated by the hon. member for Hants. In the provinces of Alberta and British Columbia considerably over seven thousand nine hundred square miles of our national parks are situated. I see no reason why the Parks Commissioner whose duty it is to superintend these parks should not be located at a convenient spot-probably the town of Banff- where he can admininster these vast areas with the least possible difficulty, instead of being detained down in the city of Ottawa far from his work and unable to keep in immediate touch with it. For that reason it is desirable that the Parks Commissioner should be located there. With regard to the historic sites, I think there is much in what the hon. member for Hants (Mr. Mar-tell) says. Perhaps the Quebec Battlefields Commission could take them over, or some special commission might be created in eastern Canada to look after these matters which, though very important, are of comparatively minor importance from the point of view of administration. I therefore suggest to the minister, as I have previously suggested in the House, that the Commisisoner of Parks-and I say now, even in his presence, that he is a very competent official, one who is extremely anxious to work out this park situation to the greatest possible advantage to the people of Canada-should be located in a spot which is central and which is close to his work. There is one other matter that I want to draw to the attention of the committee at this time, namely, the completion this year of what :s known as the Banff-Windermere highway. This is an event not only of national but of international importance. The completion of this highway, the construction of which was commenced under the late government through an agreement with the province of British Columbia, completes what is known as the circle tour. One may start by motor, on foot, or by carriage if he likes, from the city of Calgary and go to Banff; proceeding thence through the Rocky mountains by way of Vermilion pass, and down to Windermere, thence south almost to the boundary, returning by way of Crowsnest pass, if he so desires, in the southern part of the province, to Macleod, and then north again to Calgary, a distance, I think, of some 567 miles. That route is not only of interest to the people of Alberta and British Columbia; it gives many
people an opportunity to traverse this country and get in touch with the great highways of the United States. One can commence, we will say, at the town of Banff, can proceed practically to the Mexican boundary, over the very best of highways, and can then return by an altogether different course through Colorado canyon and the American parks in the northwestern United States, returning thence to the point of commencement.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Will he ever come back?


Joseph Tweed Shaw: I am sure many will. But it is not only that it gives an opportunity for Canadians to travel over this vast area of Canada and the United States, but, what is of infinitely greater importance, it gives a large number of American tourists an opportunity to traverse the Canadian Rockies by way of the circle tour. There have been numerous inquiries-I have no doubt that the Parks branch have also received them without number-as to the time of the completion of that highway.


Lewis Herbert Martell: How much will that highway cost and in whose constituency is it situated?


Joseph Tweed Shaw: My hon. friend will be glad to know that a considerable part of it runs through the constituency of the
10 p.m. Minister of Public Works (Mr. ICing); part of it runs through the constituency of the hon. member for Macleod (Mr. Coote), and a comparatively small portion of it runs through the constituency of West Calgary. But I may tell my hon. friend for his information that perhaps before he was born I was familiar with the situation at Banff. I have watched the development of the national park for over thirty years, and I am tremendously interested in the completion of this project. It is a great work; it has been splendidly carried out, and it is going to attract tourists not by hundreds, not by thousands, but by tens of thousands to the great national recreation ground of Canada. I am sure that the result will not only be beneficial to the Canadian people but it will create in the United States a tremendous interest in Canada which will be followed, I hope, by a very large immigration into various parts at least, of our western country. Our national parks-and I include in that not only the Banff National Park but also Jasper Park and others-constitute one of the greatest heritages of Canadians to-day. Some who are familiar with the facts have pointed out that the Rocky
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mountain districts constitute ten Switzerlands rolled into one. There is not a member of this House who can visualize the possibilities of these parks within, say, the next fifty years; one hesitates even to suggest those possibilities. There is one thing about a park; man may harness and destroy waterfalls and natural attractions of every character, but when parks are preserved the people have the privilege of enjoying them, and they are not destroyed; they remain there. So I say that the opening of the Banff-Windermere highway on the twentieth, I believe, of this month, is a matter of very great national importance. I regret that the House will be sitting at that time; for there are many who urge that one of the first duties of members of parliament should be to travel from one end of this country to the other. I think it should be done; it is in the national interest that it should be done. It would result in the elimination of much of the sectionalism and provincialism with which members are sometimes charged, and I could not possibly think of a better occasion for hon. members to visit western Canada than at this particular time, when they may traverse at least the small circle tour within the confines of Canada. I simply want to say this, Mr. Chairman, because I think hon. members should get some idea of what has been done, of what these parks are, and of what are their possibilities, not only for the present but, I trust, in the not too far distant future.


Lincoln Henry Jelliff: Is anything provided for the improvement of this route by its being connected up through the Waterton park region?


Charles A. Stewart: I know the ground so well that I appreciate what my hon. friend is interested in. It is a matter primarily for the province, and Mr. Greenfield has given his promise that it will be attended to this year.


Lincoln Henry Jelliff: I want to call the attention of the committee to that portion of this tourist route, because it is one of very great interest to my constituency and will in time, I believe, become of very great interest to the people of Canada generally. A great many tourists go through our part of the country every year, especially from the western states of the union. We have a great many things there that might well claim the tourist's attention. We have Waterton Lakes and its park, in the first place, which is as beautiful a bit of scenery,
I think, as can be found anywhere in Canada. Then we have other things which lend peculiar

interest to that part of the country. One of the things which attracts tourists to that district is the great Mormon temple that has been built during the last few years at Cards-ton, near the place where I live. That magnificent building probably attracts more of the attention of tourists than any	other building	in	the West;
they flock there by the thousands. At the present time the park-the little park surrounding that building-is being beautified by the planting of trees and shrubs and is becoming, I think, one of the nicest spots in the entire West. Besides that we have to show to the people journeying through that part of the country the results of the irrigation projects which are going on there and to which I referred a little while ago. We want people to go through that district and see what can be done by artificial methods of providing water. We want them to see our splendid fields of alfalfa, of timothy, and of forage of all kinds, our well equipped creameries and fine herds of cattle. We have all these things to interest tourists, and to bring money,->
ready money-into the western part of panada. I hope that the minister in providing for these highways-tourist highways especially,-will see that that south-western corner of Alberta is not neglected, for I feel that it has not been sufficiently advertised in Canada, and that it is a part of the Dominion to which the eastern residents of this country might well direct their attention.
The member for Calgary West (Mr. Shaw) has called attention to something which particularly interests me, and that is the necessity of the East and the West coming together more frequently, thereby causing the various sections of this country to understand one another's problems. Since I came down here last year I have been taken on three trips in eastern Canada through the generosity of different organizations, boards of trade, harbour commissioners, and other bodies of that kind, and it has opened my eyes to many things of importance which the farmer, especially the western farmer is wont to overlook. Now, in turn we want you people of the East, who are interested in your manufac luring enterprises, interested in a different class of enterprises to what we are in the West to return those visits, to come to the Weot and glean a thorough understanding of our problems. I believe that by such an interchange of visits we shall gradually knit this country more and more into a complete whole and that as a result we shall work together in greater harmony and with a better understanding

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Henry Lumley Drayton: The minister tells us that he proposes to slaughter a thousand buffalo and that he is going to put up a plant for the purpose. What is going to be done with the carcases?	.


Charles A. Stewart: Many of the animals that are being slaughtered are animals that were purchased when the herd was first started at Wainwright and consequently are of mature age. We intend to make most of the meat into pemmican. But my hon. friend will readily understand there is only a limited demand for the sale of that product. It can be sold in the northern country, and we have some thought of trying to introduce it into the navy where meats have to be stored-in other words it may, perhaps, take the place of corned beef on shipboard.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That is a land force now.


Charles A. Stewart: Not immediately.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend cannot have reference to the Canadian navy because that is always ashore.


Charles A. Stewart: I have reference to the British navy. As we get to the period when we will slaughter the younger animals the meat will undoubtedly sell very rapidly. The animals are increasing in that park reserve now at the rate of approximately
2,000	a year so that it is beginning to be a serious problem to provide pasturage for feeding. They are also increasing in the Lamont park, where the first buffalo were placed, and in the north. Although we have not accurate figures we think there are in the neighbourhood of 2,000 head at least in the Hay river district on the Mackenzie. We have set aside a park area there, appointed rangers, and propose to take care of these buffalo because they may prove a very important factor in the future in feeding the Indians if that becomes necessary. They are doing very well. They are much larger than when they are kept in a confined area, and seem to be very healthy. Since the Eskimo has been armed he is beginning to shoot the caribou which are so numerous in the north country. Not only that but he is beginning to shoot the seal which heretofore he has always captured. Indeed, I think it was a mistake to arm him because his food supply may become a problem in the very near future. The Indian in the Northwest Territories is not a very energetic individual, in fact he is a very poor hunter, and we must provide for the possibility of having to take care of the Indian, perhaps even in the near future-that is to
conserve a food supply for him. We hope this herd of buffalo will increase very rapidly in that country if given reasonable protection. That we propose to do by having herders riding in the area in which those animals are ranging. I may say that we have met one rather serious difficulty that has induced us, perhaps, to slaughter a little more rapidly than we first intended. In the animals we slaughtered this year we found 'traces of tuberculosis, some of it not serious, some rather serious, some of it in the tongue. My hon. friend the Minister of Agriculture could explain the operations of this disease very much better than I can but, as hon. gentlemen know sometimes after its inception it heals over. That is the case in connection with the buffalo. We cannot catch them and inoculate them, we cannot treat them the same as we do cattle, and that is rather a serious feature of the situation. We are hoping, however, that it will not be as serious a proposition as it appeared to be after the slaughtering of 160 or 180 head this year.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Do you blame the cattalo for the introduction of tuberculosis?


Charles A. Stewart: Possibly it developed by reason of what I have told my hon. friend. There were animals in which it appeared that were thought to have been cured. The disease developed at the root of the tongue. I cannot describe the origin and progress of this disease in technical terms, I can only speak of it as a layman. These animals must have been infected several years ago. The experiment carried on with the cattalo cannot be blamed for the infection of the herd. The veterinary seems to think that the herd is getting entirely too numerous.


Henry Lumley Drayton: As the minister needs funds very badly he will be very glad to know that buffalo heads are worth quite a sum of money. I understood there had been a sale at auction some time ago, and that prices as high as $500 had been paid for good buffalo heads. Is that correct?


Charles A. Stewart: As much as $1,025.	'


Henry Lumley Drayton: Instead of putting through any vote this year, the minister should have a balance to hand over to the Finance Minister. Here the minister has
1,000	buffalo to slaughter, and he has sold the heads as high as $1,025.


Charles A. Stewart: Only three
sold.
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Henry Lumley Drayton: I suppose the
hides and pelts are worth something.


Charles A. Stewart: The hides
are worth something.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is proposed to be done with them?


Charles A. Stewart: We propose to offer them for sale. We propose to advertise very extensively in Great Britain. It was proposed that we should have an exhibit at the carnival in Montreal this winter, but we did not carry it out. The intention is	to advertise extensively	in	the UnitedStates, both the hides and	robes, in	order
to secure buyers for them. If the herd continues to increase, and we are slaughtering
2,000	a year, the number will remain about normal. If we had 5,000 head in the Buffalo park, I think it would be all we are entitled to	have in that enclosure,	to	keep	themhealthy. We would need to sell between 1,500 and 2,000 a year, and possibly the price of	robes and heads would	go	down	very
rapidly, if those large numbers were put on the market, but they have been very valuable.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What has become of the electric plant at Calgary, now going out of existence? Why can the government not operate that? They could easily obtain it. It cannot be worth anything to the owners.


Charles A. Stewart: The plant
was a steam plant, and rather an expensive operation.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The department is putting in an hydraulic plant?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Mr. TOLMIE:: What percentage of beef
do those animals dress at? What percentage of beef is there in the carcase?


Charles A. Stewart: I am informed they averaged 700 pounds.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Would this include bulls
and cows?


Charles A. Stewart: All bulls.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Are they troubled with
actinomycosis, or lumpy jaw?


Charles A. Stewart: No, no
lumpy jaw.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Do you follow the ordinary plan in feeding range cattle, of putting the hay on the ground?
Mr. STEW7ART (Argenteuil):	Yes.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Unless the ground is frequently changed, that is one of the causes of range cattle becoming infected with tuberculosis. A high piece of ground is selected on account of its dryness, and they continue to feed hay on the same ground. The ground becoming foul, when there is a thaw the hay gets infected from the moist ground, and the animals become infected through the intestinal tract, and that is one reason why these animals living in the open air are affected to a considerable extent with tuberculosis. What results have been derived from the treatment of infected animals?
Mr. STEW7ART (Argenteuil): I could not give the hon. member that information. The Department of Agriculture is in charge of that.


Mr. PUTNAM:: The discussion on the
national parks has taken a somewhat wide range, and possibly I may be permitted to detain the House a moment to state that in Truro, my own town,-and if this is out of order I may say I am not asking for anything-


Henry Lumley Drayton: You are rather out of order, if you do not want anything.


Harold Putnam: The irregularity may last a moment. We have a small park there, and it is the most beautiful inland park east of Stanley park in British Columbia. It is in a wooded ravine and gorge in which there are a never-failing brook and falls of dignified proportion and rare beauty called the Joe Howe Falls, after our great orator of earlier days. He had visited those falls frequently and he had committed to print some of his beautifully descriptive language concerning those falls. This park is almost immediately adjoining the depot of the Canadian National Railway, and if any of my hon. friends happen to be down that way, I would bespeak that they try to devote an hour or two, to meandering through the bewitching walks of that park, and when I meet them again I shall not be afraid to repeat my protestation that this is the most beautiful natural park east of Stanley park in British Columbia. It is maintained under a local board of trustees in conjunction with the local municipal authority. In happier financial years a request was unsuccessfully made to the federal government for some grant for the further support and care of this park. During the present need of national economy I am not meantime repeating the request. But I hope that all who may henceforth see Truro will treat themselves to a stroll in this park: and they will agree that I have not told half the truth.

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Henry Lumley Drayton: I can remember very well, when we had the park estimates, meeting some pretty vigorous objections to their size and to their character, and the criticism made that every principle of economy was being sacrificed, the depleted treasury being bled and the country's money being wasted. I am going to ask my hon. friend for a little serious consideration of this vote tonight. I want to point out to him that for the year 1921-22, when accusations of this character were made against us, the vote for these parks amounted to $800,000, while the vote for the parks to-day amounts to $1,250,980; that in a short period those expenses which at one time were described as being so high and extravagant, have been increased under this administration over 50 per cent. I am going to ask the minister to let us have the full details of this vote, showing us where this money is going. The parks are not running away. I do not know that in any year any finance minister of Canada had more reason for concern in connection with extravagant expenditure than my hon. friend the Minister of Finance has this year, when he is budgeting for a direct deficit. Can my- hon. friend the Minister of the Interior not have a little consideration for the Finance Minister, who, after all, I suppose, is more deeply interested in this question than any of us. We have only one thing given us to-day in connection with the so-called emergency expense payments that have to be made, and that is that plant which has been referred to. That is the only matter of emergency that I have heard of so far, and that one little matter of emergency amounts to $162,000, if I heard my hon. friend correctly. Now what else is there? What else is there to-day of immediate necessity that was not present in the year 1921-22, when we got along with $800,000? There were reasons why money was spent then that do not obtain to-day. The departmental officers will recollect very well that work was entered upon the year after the war for the express purpose of giving employment when employment was so badly needed-I am not sure it was 1920-21 or 1921-22, I think it was the former year-when Governor General's warrants were issued just for the purpose of doing work which, although it was proper work, could have been postponed, were it not for the question of unemployment. Some of the roads were gone on with at that time, having regard to that issue, and bridges were undertaken. None of those matters is pressing my hon. friend to-day. We hear protestations of economy. I would like the minister to show
us exactly how those protestations work out, with an increase of over fifty per cent in a two-year period.


Charles A. Stewart: In the year the hon. member mentions, the total expenditure was $966,328, instead of the $800,000 mentioned by him.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I have the appropriation under my hand.


Charles A. Stewart: I am giving my hon. friend the expenditure.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I have the appropriation under my hand, and for the year 1921-1922 it was $800,000. As I said, in addition to that appropriation orders in council were passed for the express purpose of meeting the unemployment situation. That is the only reason why the appropriation was increased, and my hon. friend will find, I think, that my statement is correct-


Charles A. Stewart: I am not disputing it.


Henry Lumley Drayton: -that the extra amount over the $800,000 represented commitments which were taken up for the purpose of relieving a very pressing need, having regard to the unemployment situation. Apart from that there is the $800,000 appropriation.


Charles A. Stewart: Do I understand my hon. friend to ask for the whole of the items?


Henry Lumley Drayton: Yes. Perhaps it would save time if we were to let the item stand and go on with the other items.


Charles A. Stewart: I would
rather give my hon. friend the items and be done with it.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I would suggest to my hon. friend that the quickest thing to do would be to let us have a little memorandum on that without wasting the time of the committee now. The minister has several other items to go through.


Charles A. Stewart: I have the memorandum here. I will give my hon. friend the total amount spent.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I am not dealing with the total appropriation. What I want to do is to analyze these payments. I want to see why it is that in a two-year period-that is the thing that I am finding hard to believe -in connection with this work which is a very nice thing to have, although many other things are more essential in the country's
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qOMMONS
business, it is necessary to have an increase of over fifty per cent. I cannot do that without an analysis.


Charles A. Stewart: I do not know just what my hon. friend wants. Does he waDt me to give him the expenditures in detail for the two years or for the one year?


Henry Lumley Drayton: For the three years under consideration. Perhaps we would make better headway in this manner. This matter was drawn to my attention by my leader who knows much more about it than I do, and I know he wants to speak on it anyway. Perhaps time will be saved if this item is allowed to stand.


Charles A. Stewart: I would be glad, if there is any information I can get, if the hon. member would give me a statement


Henry Lumley Drayton: I will see the officials afterwards and give them a statement so that there need be no delay.


George Gibson Coote: What is the policy of the government regarding the granting of leases of water-powers in national parks?


Charles A. Stewart: There has been only one lease granted, that.is the grant to the Calgary Power Company. They are making application for increased power, and I announced before six o'clock that the matter had not been settled. The application has oeen before us for some considerable time. They asked for increased power in lake Minnewanka, and we have definitely refused +hat. They subsequently asked for power on the Spray lakes; the matter has been given consideration, and it will be given further consideration on Tuesday evening when officials of the department and one or two of the ministers are to hear representations from the power company in connection with the matter.


John Evans: Is this the company that has made application for permission to construct a dam somewhere near Banff in the national park?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


George Gibson Coote: I understand there is no
settled policy yet by the government regarding the general matter of granting waterpower leases in national parks. I know many people are very much interested in this question, and I think most of them take the view that water-powers in these parks should not be leased to any parties, although one *was granted near Banff some years ago. I was just trying to find out, if possible, what

the policy of the government was. I sincerely hope, if the government have no settled policy, they will decide that the water-powers in these parks should not be leased. It seems to me that, in the national parks at any rate, these water-powers should be kept for the people. In fact, I hope in most cases, for a good many years to come, it will not be necessary to interfere with the natural beauty. If these water-powers at least in the national parks, are ever to be harnessed, that certainly should be done under the control of the people. I would like to impress upon the committee that I think the people of the country generally are very strongly in support of such a policy.


Charles A. Stewart: In the
province of Alberta particularly, most of the heads of streams will be in park property or properties of the Crown, and to say definitely that at no time under no consideration will you grant leases for power purposes, will be, perhaps, going a long distance. I agree thoroughly with my hon. friend that the scenic beauty, particularly within the area of national parks used by tourists and others, should be preserved. I may say to my hon. friend who has just spoken in such high terms of the country from which he comes, the Waterton lake area which is a park area, that the people there are very anxious to utilize that for irrigation purposes, and this will be exactly on a par with the application of the power company. There are many aspects to this question. The United States government, however, who have given this matter very considerable attention, have adopted the principle as far as possible to conserve the natural beauty and to refuse applicants for power sites within the boundaries of their parks.


George Gibson Coote: I was hoping the minister
would give us the opinion that the policy of the government in that particular case would follow the policy of the United States government. As regards the case he mentions of the Waterton lakes, I think just as many people are opposed to the using of Waterton lakes as an irrigation reservoir as there are who are in favour of that proposition. I do not want to go into that at all. I hope the minister will see that the water-powers in our parks are preserved.


Charles Marcil: I understand that this item stands.


Thomas George McBride: Why does it have to stand?


Charles A. Stewart: 
Thomas George McBride: Is there any reason why he should not be here to say it now?


Charles A. Stewart: I think he has a very valid reason. He had to take the train to-night to attend the funeral of a friend in the East.
Item stands.
Administration of the Migratory Birds Convention Act, $55,000.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Who are the officers that administer this act, and what salaries do they receive?


Charles A. Stewart: They are: Chief Game Officer for the Maritime provinces, R. W. Tufts; Chief Officer, Ontario and Quebec, H. F. Lewis; Chief Officer, western provinces, J. A. Munro.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Can the minister give us a brief outline of the work?


Charles A. Stewart: All the provinces, except the Maritime provinces, have amended their laws with respect to migratory birds to conform to the federal law, and the provincial officers are assisting to carry out the act. In the Maritime provinces the work is being done by federal officers, apparently for the reason that the provincial laws in that part of the Dominion do not conform to the Dominion regulations. The game guardians in the other provinces are assisting as preventive officers.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Is there an international arrangement with the United States?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Are the results satisfactory?


Charles A. Stewart: I am informed that they are very satisfactory.


Lewis Herbert Martell: The minister has not supplied all the information I asked for. I requested a list of the migratory birds officers and their salaries. Perhaps the minister has not the information now; he may be able to get it later.


Charles A. Stewart: The following are the officers together with their salaries :
Hoyes Lloyd	  $3,000
Technical	Assistant, new position	 1,900
Chief Game Officer, Maritime Provinces, R. W.
Tufts	  1,680
Chief Game Officer, Ontario and Quebec, H. F.
Lewis	 1,635
Chief Game Officer, western provinces, J. A.
Munro	  1,635
5 Game Officers, Maritime provinces, J. L. DeVany, P. G. Rowe, H. A. P. Smith, R. T.
Christie, C. B. Day	 6,290
Part-time Game Officers	 500
Special Guardians, bird sanctuaries	 300
Jack Miner	 300
Total	$17,240


Lewis Herbert Martell: Do they get a bonus in addition?


Charles A. Stewart: I do not know.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Engraving, lithographing, printing, and preparation of maps, plans reports and kindred publications of the Dominion, including salaries and necessary materials for same, etc., $120,700.
George Gibson Coote: What is the reason for this increase of $15,000?


Charles A. Stewart: We have not had a sufficient amount to meet the demand for the maps which are now very widely used. We do not send these maps out indiscriminately; we simply supply them on demand; but they are used very largely throughout Canada, the United States and elsewhere and are of immense advantage in advertising our national resources. I believe that they also play an important part in inducing capital to come to Canada. That is why I am asking for the increase.


George Gibson Coote: Does the grant cover all maps issued by the government, or are there some maps issued by other departments.


Charles A. Stewart: It does not include the maps of all the departments, but I think I am safe in saying that 95 per cent of the maps that go out from the government service come from the Interior department.


George Gibson Coote: Are these maps furnished free on application to anyone in Canada?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Ordnance lands-salaries and expenses, $14,505.
Henry Lumley Drayton: There is a considerable increase here.


Charles A. Stewart: All the
ordnance lands in the Dominion are, being turned over to the Interior department for the purpose of listing and ascertaining their values and getting them into shape, if need be, for sale or lease, or for any other similar purpose. Formerly, the lands were scattered around under half a dozen different departments, but now they will be all under the control of this one department, and naturally there must be a larger appropriation for administrative purposes.
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John Babington Macaulay Baxter: In my own constituency
we have some ordnance lands in connection with the Martello tower on the west side of St. John. Have they been taken in?
Mr. STEWARTC Argenteuil): Yes; all government lands are being taken over. '


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: Is there any caretaker
there at the present time?


Charles A. Stewart: I do not
know.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: I should like to know, but I will not press the question to-night.


Mr. STEVENS:: Are the salaries of the
clerks in other departments who are looking after the lands that should come under this department being transferred to the Department of Interior?


Charles A. Stewart: As nearly
as I can gather, very little attention has heretofore been paid to these lands, and even in Ottawa I doubt very much whether any department knew what lands came under it. We have discovered that all over the country. I do not think that there has been any clerical staff of any importance maintained in any of the departments looking after this particular work.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To satisfy the claims of the half-breeds of the Mackenzie River District, N.W.T., $42,240.
Henry Lumley Drayton: This is a new
item.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: I think the committee would like to have an explanation of this item.


Charles A. Stewart: These claims arise out of the treaty settlement with the Indians of the north. On former occasions hon. members will recall that half-breeds who happened to be on the reserve were given scrip, not being entitled to treaty money. Under the arrangement the late Mr. Conroy made when in the north country he proposed to settle one hundred and fifty halfbreed claims by giving them $240 apiece. I am inclined to think that is a good arrangement, for we have always had complaints regarding the transfer of half-breed scrip. I believe my hon. friend from West Edmonton (Mr. Kennedy) is still anxious to probe claims arising out of such transfers. On this

occasion Mr. Conroy recommended a settlement in cash.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Just a straight cash grant?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, of $240 per head. Thirty-six claims have been submitted for further investigation to ascertain whether they are entitled to consideration. One hundred and forty claims have been settled, representing a cash payment of $33,600, and thirty-six claims outstanding will require another $8,640, making a total of $42,240.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: How is it that parties entitled to payment were not settled with in 1900?


Charles A. Stewart: I cannot tell my hon. friend, but these matters always entail some considerable time to make sure the men are entitled to consideration.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Seed Grain Advances-amount required to meet uncollected portions of advances of seed grain made in the western provinces by the chartered banks to holders of unpatented Dominion Lands under the guarantee of the Dominion government, also including commission payable to banks for collections, fees to secretary treasurers of municipalities and officers of the provincial Departments of Agriculture, clerical assistance, travelling expenses, etc., $160,000.
Mr. CARMICHAEL:: How much is outstanding in the three prairie provinces in reference to this item?


Charles A. Stewart: My record goes back to the inception of the relief in 1876. In that time there has been advanced by the federal government $15,685,325.55, there has been collected $11,483,572.34, and there is outstanding $4,201,753.21. Some $300,000 or $400,000 has been collected since these figures were computed.


Archibald M. Carmichael: Do settlers who
break up school lands make application to the minister's department for seed grain advances?


Charles A. Stewart: That has been rather a vexed question, and I had to deal with it in the province of Alberta. The provincial authorities found, as far as I know, that they could not advance seed grain in such cases; the federal authorities did not think they were entitled to do so either. There is not very much security on school lands for the advance of seed grain. I am now informed that the federal government never makes these advances to purchasers of school lands.

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Archibald M. Carmichael: I have a letter under my hand from the reeve of a municipality in my district in regard to school lands that are sold and brought under cultivation by the purchaser and then allowed to revert to the Crown. Possibly a short extract will explain the point I wish to direct attention to. In this letter dated March 27th last the writer says, in part:
Quite recently a purchaser of school lands in our municipality has turned these lands back to the Crown and received his clearance papers. He owes the municipality in taxes about $400. He had at least two thousand bushels of wheat on these lands this year, and had the council been notified that the lands were reverting back to the Crown we could have collected by distraint. As well as losing the taxes, we are now confronted with the expense of destroying noxious weeds on these lands without any hope of recovery.
The point this gentleman wishes brought to the attention of the department is that the municipality should be notified when school lands revert to the Crown. Would it not be possible for the Department of the Interior to adopt a certain fixed policy so that when any school lands are about to revert to the Crown they would notify the rural municipality? Then in such a case as this letter refers to the municipality might take action in time to recover the taxes. I know of another case in my locality where the taxes amoimt to $2,800 on a quarter section which reverted to the Crown. These taxes are lost to the municipality. Would it not be possible to notify the municipal officials prior to the cancellation of any contract for school lands?


Charles A. Stewart: There would be no objection if it were possible, but we only know of the cancellation when the surrender is sent in. There may be very rare [DOT]cases in which we have notification of intention to abandon, but in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred the first notification we have is the notice that the purchaser has decided to abandon. By that time any notification to the municipality would not be of very much value.


Archibald M. Carmichael: Does that mean that the owner of the land would notify the department and then immediately leave?


Charles A. Stewart: I am afraid he does very frequently. In some cases where they are owners of other land in the municipality of course there is a remedy. But where they leave the municipality we seldom get notification of their intention to abandon until they have moved away.


Archibald M. Carmichael: Can a settler grow
2.000	bushels of wheat, get the proceeds from that, tell the department he is leaving, and then leave the land without making a payment?	'


Charles A. Stewart: Of course we would have the right of ordinary action against him.


Archibald M. Carmichael: But if he is gone, what then?


Charles A. Stewart: That is the difficulty. If we proceed to seize his crop there would be a hue and a cry-I am assuming now he was in arrears. The usual procedure is to notify the purchaser when payments of principal or interest are due, and we expect these to be forwarded. If they are not forwarded, it is seldom that we take any drastic action against the purchaser. Naturally, if he decided to relinquish he would not leave very many of his assets around on which we might recover.


Archibald M. Carmichael: Is there any local supervision of the owners of these lands at the crop threshing time?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


Archibald M. Carmichael: It is left entirely to the individual to make the payment to the department?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Robert Forke: Has the government been making any advance for seed grain during the last few years? Are they continuing that policy in the West?


Charles A. Stewart: Last year we did; not this year.


Robert Forke: Have you the items there by provinces?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes. In 1922 there were 85 advances from Calgary, amounting to $7,214.40; from Grand Prairie, $122.15; 213 from Lethbridge, $15,995.59; 4 from Peace river, $232.85, making a total of $23,564.99 in Alberta. I assume my hon. friend will be satisfied with the totals for the provinces?


Robert Forke: Yes.


Charles A. Stewart: Saskatchewan, $44,616.64; Manitoba, $1,180.25, making a total last year of $69,361.88.


George Gibson Coote: How much was collected last year?


Charles A. Stewart: From seed grain alone we collected last year $255,438.75.

Supply-Interior


Mr. CHAPLIN:: A few minutes ago tha minister stated that there were arrearages on seed grain amounting to something over $4,000,000. Can he say how much of that is considered collectible?


Charles A. Stewart: I could not say that.


Mr CHAPLIN:: Does the minister say that some of the arrearages have been overdue since 1876?


Mr STEWART (Argenteuil):: Oh, no, I
cannot say to that. There would be some of it not collectible.


Robert Forke: That must have been the Selkirk settlers.


Charles A. Stewart: It would be very difficult to tell what the ultimate loss will be; for there is no doubt there will be a loss when everything is straightened out. I think an indication of what we may expect is given by the amount we collected last year, $255,438.75.


James Dew Chaplin: That is, out of a total amount due of $4,201,000?


Charles A. Stewart: That amount has been reduced by $300,000 since the figures were computed.


George Gibson Coote: How much of this $160,000 is being used for payment to banks, and how much is for clerical assistance, travelling expenses, and so on, as mentioned in the item?


Charles A. Stewart: I could not say that.


George Gibson Coote: What I am trying to get at is this: What percentage of the amount goes to pay fees? In some cases it takes more to pay the fees for inspection and the travelling expenses than the main items themselves involve. I do not want to bother the minister, however; if he has not the figures before him I can get them from his department later.


Charles A. Stewart: It would be difficult to segregate the amounts-what is paid to the banks, and what are the travelling expenses of the collectors and their salaries. However, we can furnish the hon. member with the information.


Archibald M. Carmichael: In the figures the minister gave a short time ago in regard to advances and collections, did he include the advances made in 1914 for fodder and relief throughout the western provinces?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.
IMr. C. A. Stewart.]


Archibald M. Carmichael: Does the four million outstanding include all that is outstanding in reference to that fodder and relief?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, that is the total amount.


Archibald M. Carmichael: I have in mind one
municipality that has assumed an indebtedness in this connection of some $70,000 or $75,000, and they are still paying interest on that loan in addition to the regular .municipal loan. Is it the intention of the department to relieve the local unit of that financial obligation, or is it intended to let them bear the whole burden?


Charles A. Stewart: There is an arrangement between the federal and the provincial governments under which they will ultimately share in the loss that may accrue. Outside of that, it is not the intention to do what my hon. friend suggests. I am afraid if that were done the municipalities would cease trying to collect.


Archibald M. Carmichael: I am not advocating that it should be done immediately, but this particular municipality has been paying 8 per cent interest to the bank on about $70,000 since 1914. I was just wondering how long the local unit was going to be required to shoulder the burden.


Charles A. Stewart: Well, it is
a burden they themselves assumed. A bond issue was undertaken to relieve the municipality-to relieve them not of
11 p.m. ultimate payment, but of the burden of constantly renewing a note at the bank.


Archibald M. Carmichael: Does that mean
that the municipality eventually has to pay back all the amount?	,


Charles A. Stewart: Oh, yes.


Archibald M. Carmichael: In the district to which I refer a great many persons who got loans of from $800 to $1,000 or $1,500 have left the municipality. Is it the intention of the department to compel the local unit to pay the full amount of the loan regardless of that condition?


Charles A. Stewart: As I say,
the municipalities took that responsibility on themselves. They were responsible for the loan, and I do not see how either the provincial or the federal government could come to their rescue by assuming a liability which is clearly the liability of the municipality.


Archibald M. Carmichael: This particular unit to which I refer is under the impression that

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the provincial and Dominion governments . are going to assume the liability, and they are waiting for them to take steps to that end.


Charles A. Stewart: I have not heard of any steps of that kind being proposed.


Robert Forke: I should just like to say that I went through an experience thirty years ago in connection with the handing out of seed grain and because the government guaranteed the payment of debentures individual farmers got it into their heads that the government were advancing the money and went into debt. Consequently the debt is one belonging to the municipality. The same thing has been happening year after year, I know that from personal experience in the province of Manitoba, so that in that province the municipalities will not make advances in connection with seed grain any more. Before I sit down I should like to ask if all this money was advanced upon loan from the Dominion government?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes. I think the system has prevailed for the past seven or eight years.


Robert Forke: What about the 1876 loan?
I cannot make that out; it puzzles me, a little.


Charles A. Stewart: I do not know what was done.


John Millar: Are the seed grain transactions we are discussing entirely separate and distinct from the purchases made by the Seed Purchasing Commission?


Charles A. Stewart: The latter are under the Department of Agriculture.


John Millar: They are not included in
this item?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


Mr. JOHNSTON:: I understood from the answer given by the minister to the hon. member for Kindersley (Mr. Carmichael) that part of this money being voted is for relief given in the year 1914. If that is so I think the matter would stand close investigation. I think it absolutely wrong that municipalities should be shouldered with the debt incurred in the matter of granting relief. It was the result of that campaign because you can term it nothing else. The dried out areas in the West were supposed to be given relief. It was on what was expected to be the eve of an election and the relief extended far beyond the bounds of the dried out areas; it was granted to people
220J
- who were in no way in need of relief. Considerable relief was given to people in the municipality in which I live, and since that time we have come through much worse periods of stress. With respect to my own municipality all that an individual had to do was to get on the train, go up to a certain town on the line, make his own representations to the so-called relief officer who knew nothing whatever of the circumstances and come away with relief in the shape of an order on the stores in the district for groceries, flour or fuel. Now, why should a municipality be made to bear the expense of that relief?


Charles A. Stewart: They are not responsible for it.


John Frederick Johnston: I understood the minister to say that in reply to a question.


Charles A. Stewart: They are not sponsible only for the obligations they assumed themselves, not for any obligations assumed by the government to the homesteaders. Obligations were taken on in 1917, 1918 and 1919 by the municipalities themselves. When the government of the province and the government of the Dominion refused to go on with relief, the municipalities issued relief in their own names under municipal officers. That is the relief I was discussing with my hon. friend from Kindersley.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Amount required to provide relief by way of necessary supplies of food, clothing, fuel etc., also fodder for animals to needy settlers of the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan by co-operation and agreement with the provincial governments or otherwise, and under regulations to be made by the Governor in Council, $125,000.
George Gibson Coote: Would the minister tell us
what was spent of the amount voted last year under this item?


Charles A. Stewart: We spent.
$232,250 out of what was voted last year.


Thomas George McBride: If grants have been made for this purpose to other provinces I should like to know why the minister could not extend any assistance to settlers in the Nicola valley in British Columbia. The minister was out there last year and he learned for himself that the Nicola valley was practically cleaned out owing to depredations by grasshoppers. The minister will remember that we applied for some assistance but were turned down. Now, am I to understand that fodder was supplied to other provinces and not to British Columbia?


Charles A. Stewart: The assistance only applied to homesteaders or people
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on Crown lands in any of the western provinces. I do not suppose my hon. friend's representations would come under that category. Some of the settlers would be on lands owned by the province but in most of the cases the lands would be privately owned and under municipal organization, would they not?


Thomas George McBride: There are some under the provinces and some in the railway belt. There are quite a number of homesteaders there.


Charles A. Stewart: I do not
recollect an application being turned down where it was warranted. This was paid out generally by the provincial government and the Dominion. I cannot recollect any application coming from the homesteaders in the Nicola valley.


Thomas George McBride: The minister surely remembers being out there, and that the provincial government were prepared to stand their part of the expense.


Charles A. Stewart: We usually leave the matter to them but, of course, we are prepared to co-operate with them.


Thomas George McBride: Yes, but if the Dominion government was spending money in other provinces it certainly should have spent some in the Nicola valley.


Robert Gardiner: I think my hon. friend from British Columbia does not understand the circumstances. In British Columbia the government own and control the lands in that province.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Not in the railway belt.
The Dominion owns the railway belt.


Robert Gardiner: Then I do not see any
reason why the same treatment should not have been extended to settlers on Crown lands there as was extended in the case of other provinces.


John Millar: There may be another
reason. It is very seldom justifiable to accord relief where there has only been a loss of one crop. In many districts in Saskatchewan and Alberta the settlers lost four crops in succession. I do not know whether the conditions are the same in the valley to which my hon. friend (Mr. McBride) has referred. If so I do not see why they should not have received the same relief. However, that was the situation in the prairie provinces.


Mr. SPEAKMAN:: Is it not a fact that
part of this relief work had to be done through an arrangement with the provincial governments?
[Mr. C. A. Stewartll	I


Charles A. Stewart: Two of the provincial governments entered into that arrangement whilst other provincial governments did not.


Alfred Speakman: We could not very
well have refused to enter into an arrangement with the province of British Columbia had they so desired it.


Charles A. Stewart: That is
what I say. It was a matter in the first place of the provincial government entering into the arrangement we have now.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I should like to
understand whether this is being done as charity to the farmers out in Alberta or whether it is a case of granting credit and taking a lien?


Charles A. Stewart: It is a loan.


Archibald M. Carmichael: Last year the appropriation was $325,000 and the minister has said that $232,250 was spent. This year the appropriation is $125,000. I presume the expenditure will be considerably less. Is that an indication of the general prosperity of Alberta and Saskatchewan?


Charles A. Stewart: We cannot form any definite opinion of the requests. Of course, they come from the provincial government. They assume the responsibility of making advances and we become responsible for our share of them. So far as I know the Alberta government have done nothing in that line, or very little, and the government of the province of Saskatchewan have been exceedingly careful. I think the estimate of $125,000 will meet the case.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Graham the House adjourned at 11.15 p.m.
Tuesday, June 5, 1923