1923-05-04

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: Can the Minister of Finance now definitely fix the date for the presentation of the budget? -


Mr. FIELDING:: I had contemplated presenting it on Thursday next, but as that day, I find, will be a holiday I will now fix it for Friday If anything happens to necessitate a change there will be ample notice in advance.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. T. L. CHURCH (North Toronto):: As a private member may I ask a question? We have now entered the fourth month of the session, and I should be glad if the Prime Minister could tell us whether it would be possible to expedite the business of the House by holding more frequent sittings. On Wednesday we sit for three hours, and most other days only six hours. Last session the Railway committee sat for three months and brought down an important report practically a day or so before parliament prorogued. Important committees are now sitting, one of which is the committee on Banking and Commerce, and these committees have not yet . reported. Can the Prime Minister tell us what the rest of the sessional programme will be? As I say, we are now in the fourth month of the session and something should be done to speed up the business.


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: I do not know that the government can do anything in particular towards expediting the work of the committees. So far as the work of this House is concerned, I think, it is proceeding pretty
well. It rests, I think, largely with my hon. friend and other members opposite as to how quickly we shall get through.



CAPE BRETON NORTH AND VICTORIA

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. MEIGHEN:: Has the writ been issued yet for the election to be held in Cape Breton North and Victoria?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Not yet.


Arthur Meighen: Has the government not changed its policy in regard to that constituency? There was great expedition in the case of North Essex.


Mr. GRAHAM:: The result will be the
same.


Arthur Meighen: If it is, the hon. gentleman will be defeated.



U.S. LABOUR DELEGATES DETAINED

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. W'OODSWORTH: It is said that importunity will move even an unjust judge. I wonder whether the Acting Minister of Immigration (Mr. Stewart) can tell us yet what has been done in the Howat case.
Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil):: The officer
in charge at McAdam Junction has rejected Howat, but has passed Myerseough into the country temporarily. So far I have not had notice of appeal from Howat.



CATTLE SHIPPED TO GREAT BRITAIN

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. MILLAR:: Has the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Motherwell) received any notification from the British authorities that the first shipment of store cattle to Great Britain was not entirely free from tuberculosis? According to a report in a Regina paper it would appear that they were not.


Mr. MOTHERWELL:: No report of that nature has been brought to my attention. As a matter of fact animals shipped for slaughter do not require to be tested for tuberculosis before entry into the United Kingdom. The conditions regarding tuberculosis apply only to breeding animals.



SINGAPORE NAVAL BASE

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. WOODSWORTH:: In view of the vote of 650,000,000 by the House of Commons at Westminster for the naval base at Singapore,
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and the comments in the British parliament and in the press that this signifies strained or possibly strained relations between Great Britain and Japan, I would ask whether the government of my right hon. friend (Mr. Mackenzie King) has acquiesced in this policy which is being pursued by the British government at the present time?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think it is for the British government to determine their own policy and for us to express no opinions concerning it.



CANADA HIGHWAYS ACT

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. Mr. Graham, Bill No. 151 to extend the period of the Canada Highways Act was considered in committee, reported, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals) moved the second reading of Bill No. 152 respecting the Canadian National Railways.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the object of this bill is to allow the Canadian National Railway Company to do its own express business. Formerly there was the Canadian Northern Express Company, which afterwards became the Canadian National Express Company; there was the Canadian Express Company, which operated over the Grand Trunk and whose stock was vested in the Grand Trunk Company; and there was the Intercolonial Express Company, which had no connection with the Intercolonial Railway so far as ownership .was concerned, being a distinct company organized by other parties for the purpose of doing express business over the Intercolonial Railway. Eventually the Canadian Express Company took over the Intercolonial Express -Company. This combined company was afterwards amalgamated with the Canadian National Express Company in one organization. The stock of these various express companies of course is now vested in the Canadian National Railway Company, and for the purpose of economy the board has recommended that the Canadian National Railway Company itself be given power to do its own express business.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
On section 1-Canadian National Railway Company authorized to carry on express company business:
[Mr. Woods worth.!
Arthur Meighen: Why does the minister think that this is going to be the right method for the Canadian National Railway Company when it appears to be the wrong method for successful privately managed companies? The Canadian Pacific, as everyone knows, operates its express work through a subsidiary company-the Dominion Express Company. Other railway companies do likewise. I am not sure that the practice is universal, but it is almost so. Here, apparently, the practice is being changed. What is really to be gained by change? Of course, I am quite aware that just as the railways were amalgamated so the express business should be too, but why is it not amalgamated into one company operated as a separate company, thus getting whatever advantage the private railway companies get by that method?


George Perry Graham: We get away from one more of the many companies that we have in connection with the Canadian, National Railways. I could see some object in a private railway company having a separate express company in which there are sometimes other relationships that those interested in would not wish the railway company to be directly associated with, but I could not see any advantage of such a situation to a railway in which all the stock is Owned by the government. There is no stock of the Canadian National Express Company distributed among the public; there is stock of the other express companies outstanding.


Arthur Meighen: The Dominion Express Company?


George Perry Graham: I think so. Maybe the Canadian Pacific Railway Company practically owns all of the stock, but I think you will find some of it in the names of other people. As the stock of the Canadian National Express Company is absolutely in the hands of the government, the board thought it would be more convenient and economical if the railway company itself performed all the duties and functions of the express company.


Arthur Meighen: I do not see why it would not be true of the Canadian Pacific Railway if it is true of the Canadian National Railway, because I have always been informed very definitely that the Canadian Pacific Railway owns all the stock of the Dominion Express Company, and this company does no business save with the Canadian Pacific, just as our express company, as I understood it would do no business except with the Canadian National. Besides, the merging of the express

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company in the parent company, extinguishing the separate corporation, if it is justified in the case of the express business, would surely, be equally justified in the case of the telegraph business. The telegraph business is still carried on by the Great Northwest Telegraph Company. Does the minister know any reason why he is dealing wth one and not with the other?


George Perry Graham: I do not know of any reason. I know we have one telegraph company called the Canadian National Telegraph Company.


Arthur Meighen: Yes, but the stock, as I understood, is owned by the other company


George Perry Graham: That may be. The question of the telegraph service has never been discussed. This matter has been discussed by the board pretty thoroughly, and they have arrived at the conclusion that there are economic reasons for taking this authority to perform the express business as a branch of the railway management rather than as a separate branch.


Arthur Meighen: The minister will remember that after he presented his railway budget I expressed the opinion that in the re-organ-lzation of the amalgamated railway systems upon the taking in of the Grand Trunk and upon the accession of Sir Henry Thornton there had been no very sincere attempt at getting the advantages of amalgamation. The struggle seemed to be more to find some place for everybody with a sufficiently dignified title. Now I come to the point as regards the merging of the express company in the Canadian National Railway. It is a fact, is it not, that Mr. Robb, all his life in charge of the mechanical department of the Grand Trunk, brought up in that department and the head of it for a long time until very very lately, has now been made vice-president in charge of express business? And does not 1he minister see that the purpose of this merger is just to enable the company to put Mr. Robb in with the title of vice-president?


George Perry Graham: No.


Arthur Meighen: Well, it looks very much like it to me.


George Perry Graham: Not at all.


Arthur Meighen: Is it not a fact that Mr. Robb has never had any express experience? He is vice-president now of express and colonization, in respect to neither of which has he had a day's experience; and I understand his assistant is in just the same position-each brought through and living their lives in the
mechanical sendee. I have not a word to say against Mr. Robb in that service. I believe he was a success, one of the few-


George Perry Graham: He was connected with motive power in the first place.


Arthur Meighen: Yes, that is in the mechanical department. In that service he was brought up; there he served all his life. He is now a man of about seventy and he is made vice-president in charge of express business and colonization. It is a very poor encouragement to the men who have served their lives in the express business, who have pushed themselves forward by efficient work from post to post, to find that the big post, toward which, of course, all strive, is simply taken over by a man who knows nothing at all of it.


George Perry Graham: My right hon. friend's preliminary remarks respecting Mr. Robb may have been all right, but his conclusions are not so accurate. Mr. Robb was given charge of transportation long before this board came into existence.


Arthur Meighen: Just for a few months.


George Perry Graham: No, for several years. I have had business to do with Mr. Robb in that connection. He was there long before the amalgamation took place. My right hon. friend shakes his head, but I know; I happen to live on the line of the Grand Trunk and I have had dealings with it.


Arthur Meighen: Was it two years?


George Perry Graham: A good deal more than that. I had dealings with him at Brockville on questions of transportation long before there was any amalgamation. But, as to his connection with this company, what my hon. friend says is all new to me. The reasons given by the board I believe to be sound. They say they can more economically manage the express company and give, perhaps, better service, by having it as a branch of the railway company rather than as a subsidiary.


Mr. HANSON:: What is the position now occupied by Mr. Hayes, late traffic manager of the Canadian National Railways?


George Perry Graham: I think Mr. Hayes will be connected with the express business, rather than Mr. Robb.


Henry Lumley Drayton: If Mr. Robb is not being put in charge of the express business, as the newspapers tell us, what is he doing?
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George Perry Graham: I do not know that I can give that information. He is in charge of work in Montreal, as vice-president.


Henry Lumley Drayton: In charge of what?


George Perry Graham: Several things-railway insurance, for one. I cannot at the moment recall his exact duties.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The papers say [DOT]-and I do not know that they are not correct-I would naturally think that the responsible minister would know better than they did-that Mr. Robb, who was in the motive power branch during at least seventy-five per cent of his railroad life, has been made vice-president in charge of express and colonization, and that Mr. Hayes is the successor of Mr. Pullen, formerly manager of the Canadian Express Company, the Grand Trunk express company. My hon. friend talks about economies. We want them; now let us know what they will be. What economies will result? How many dismissals are going to be made, and where is the work going to be done?


George Perry Graham: I do not know anything about the details of how these things are to be managed. The board make a representation to me that they can save money and serve the public just as well by doing away with one company and making it a branch of the railway company. The board will have to be left to carry on the management as they think best.


Mr. FORKE:: Does the board make all these appointments?


George Perry Graham: Surely.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend need not think we want the details of the business.


George Perry Graham: The hon. gentleman asked me how many men were going to be dismissed.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The question is, what economies can be effected? Did the board say that in the name of economy they wanted to wipe these things out? Did they go even that far?


George Perry Graham: No.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Then it comes down to this: The string is pulled; the board says, "Get rid of these things, because economy will result," and my hon. friend does not know a single detail as to what economy will be brought about. Not even an approxima-

tion is given. Did my hon. friend discuss it at all? Has he any information except that bald statement?


George Perry Graham: I have some information as to the returns from the operation of the express cempany and the number of employees. I think I am following out the policy announced by my hon. friend himself that when it comes to the details, that is a matter for the board. When the board makes a recommendation that looks reasonable to me, I accept it. Sometimes I do not have to decide upon it, but in this case parliament has either to accept or to reject, it. If, of course, parliament does not want to accept it, I cannot help it.


Arthur Meighen: I do not think anyone would suggest that the details of management should not be left to the board. I never heard anyone suggest that, save hon. gentlemen opposite when they were in opposition. That principle, of course, must be adhered to. But when the Canadian National Board presents legislation to the House through the Minister of Railways, the House is entitled to know something of what is to be done under it, to have something on which to base an opinion whether this new system of operation is in the interests of economy. The minister asks us to go at it blindly. He says we are told it will be economical, therefore it is all right. Now, as to Mr. Robb, he is for the first time in his life placed in charge of a vast express system. He never in his career had anything to do with the express business. He had to do with motive power, which is part of the mechanical department. Naturally transportation would be connected with motive power, though during the last two or three years he had, I thought, less than that to do with transportation. But he never had anything to do which was connected with the least degree with the express or colonization business, and he is now made vice-president in eharge of both, at a salary, I understand, of $25,000 a year. How many more of these vice-presidents are there?-for they all receive $25,000 a year-and are there others who never had any experience whatever in the work that is committed to them at this large salary?


George Perry Graham: Well, I have to go back to what I said before: If parliament wants me to interfere with the work of the Canadian National Board to the extent of knowing the qualifications of every man they select, knowing what he is to do and how much he is to be paid, then we need not have the Canadian National Board; we had better put it where

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it was in the case of the old Intercolonial, when the minister was the last word in the matter of management. I want to give everything to parliament that parliament should have, because parliament has to supply the money. But this is a case of internal management. The men whom we have entrusted with the task of managing the system come to me as minister, the medium through whom they have to approach parliament, and say that they can effect economies in this way.
I do not think I ought to be asked for details of what this man does or what that man does; that is a matter in connection with which I take the advice of the Canadian National Board.	'


Arthur Meighen: Nothing could be a
greater contrast than the position of the minister to that of his friends when they were on this side of the House. I wish to take exactly the same position that I took then: I do not belie-ve in details of management befng revealable every day or discussable in the House of Commons, and never did. At the same time I realize, as I realized when in power, that there are some matters in connection with which the details might be brought before the House at the proper time -when that might be done without interfering with the actual day to day management, and when all the doings of the company could be scrutinized by hon. members. If the minister himself was not in the House at the time, there are others here on all sides who were, and those who were will remember that in the session of 1921 I moved the appointment of a committee of this House to review the following subjects-I speak now from memory: The first was the system of management by a directorate of the national system with a view to recommending improvements in the method of appointment, the constitution of the directorate, Or otherwise. The second object was to determine what should be contained, and to what extent details should appear, in the report of the company. The third object was to determine at what time and under what circumstances the matters of management might be made known to the House of Commons and to the Senate. While management is on and while they are hiring this man and firing that man. buying coal here and refusing to buy' it there, we admitted and argued strenuously that it was impossible to have these things subjected to daily scrutiny, but we always said that the time came when the House had a right to inquire into everything in management, and we asked that committee to ascertain when that time came and how these matters could
be brought before the House. The fourth object was to recommend to the House whether and for what purpose the committee so established should become, and become known as, a Standing Committee of the House. The matter of steamship management was included in the National Railways I believe I have now given virtually completely the purposes of that committee. It was presided over by the present member for East Hamilton (Mr. Mewbum). The committee was appointed, however, only about three weeks before it was necessary for the House to close owing to the conference. The committee really never finished its work. Its report, however, is of value. This House has never followed the report of that committee. This government, made up of those who, while in opposition, screamed for details from day to day, demanding that everything be known right off, has never proceeded along the line even that the late government took toward the appointment of a committee to complete the work of the committee that was then appointed to find out the right system under which the scrutiny that, undoubtedly, we as representatives of the people ought to make of National Railway affairs and National Railway operation at the proper time, could be made. That scrutiny, I say, can be exercised, but this government has never moved a step to establish such a system, and the consequence is that now, a year and a half after they came into office, this House is practically blindfolded to the National Railways, and there is no method whatever by which the scrutiny we ought to exersise at the proper time can be made.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I would like to ask the minister if he has any information as to the termination of the contract of the Dominion Express Company with the Canadian Government Railways? If so, why is it being terminated? It might appear to be a duplication of the same service, but in so far as there was competition between the Canadian Express Company and the Dominion Express Company the communities which were served jointly by these two companies got very much better service than they will get if the contract with the Dominion Express Company is terminated.


George Perry Graham: My hon. friend is correct; I am not disputing it. The same thing would apply to the Canadian Racific Railway. But our express company is not allowed to do business on the Canadian Pacific Railway.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Why should they not be''
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George Perry Graham: They are not. If the company are going to run this as a business proposition we have to let them run it that way. The public must be served, that is true, but there is no reason why the Canadian National Railway Company doing an express business should ask somebody else to go into its own line and take its business away providing it is serving the public. The Canadian Pacific Railway does not do business that way. The first thing is service to the public. If that is neglected we ought to have something to say. Upon the recommendation of the board I did give the Dominion Express Company notice that on all our lines we would do our own express business, as they have never allowed us to do business on their lines, as I understand it.


Arthur Meighen: I just recall to memory that the senior member for Halifax (Mr. Maclean) was one of the most enthusiastic supporters of the resolution to which I referred for the appointment of a committee and the devising of a plan for the examination into Canadian National affairs. Indeed, if I remember rightly, he wanted to go further even than we went. He has been remarkably silent this session. I think he might favour the House now with a statement of his view and just how far he suffers with patience the present policy.


Mr. MACLEAN (Halifax):: I remember
that last year I asked for the appointment of a committee-


Arthur Meighen: Oh, no, the hon. member * is wrong. He was very quiet last year. It was two years ago he asked for it.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Two sessions ago, and I think I very plainly stated then the purpose I had in mind in asking for the constitution of such a committee. I had in mind particularly an inquiry into the matter of the operations of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine. I was fairly well satisfied with the information I got. I do not remember that I declared myself particularly one way or the other in respect to the appointment of a committee to deal with Canadian National Railway matters. I think I espoused the idea some time ago, I do not know how far back, that it might be advisable to have a standing parliamentary dommittee before whom and by whom all matters relative to railway administration might be discussed so that we would avoid all discussion in the House.


Arthur Meighen: Indeed that was the very purpose of the hon. member's motion, but he

has not yet explained how he is satisfied to let matters go along without any committee.


George Perry Graham: Confidence is increasing.


Robert Forke: I am at a little loss to
understand this situation exactly. I understand that the board of railway management has control of employment and the operation of the railways. Just how is the minister going to get this information as to what is being paid to the employees, how they are employed and generally the method of securing them? Is it the idea to have some committee to which the railway board will report, and to have its report come before parliament for discussion?


Arthur Meighen: At the right time.


Robert Forke: Then what steps would
parliament take supposing it is not satisfied with the operations of the railway board? Would parliament over-ride the decisions of the railway board in that case? For instance, in connection with this express company, if parliament thought that a wrong appointment had been made would it interfere with what the railway board had done? What is the meaning of the whole thing?


Mr. LAPOINTE:: We would get into a
fine mess then.


Arthur Meighen: The Minister of Marine
(Mr. Lapointe) says it would be a fine mess. I would just suggest to the hon. member for Brandon (Mr. Forke) that he read the speech of the minister two years ago demanding that very thing. I might also say, and I say it without any sense of malice whatever, that if the hon. member will at the same time read the speech of the hon. member now sitting to his right (Mr. Crerar) he will find the greatest possible cause for the establishment of such a committee. We did contend, we always contended, that we could not directly as a parliament or as a government control the operation of the railway, and we thought it was only consistent with that that the management should not be harassed from day to day by having the matter of operation wrangled over in this House, disclosed to it and made the subject of discussion and debate. But we had to fight heroically to maintain our ground against the assaults of hon. gentlemen here, who claimed that the dismissal of every man, or the purchase of every ton of coal, should, if demanded be made a matter of discussion right on the floor of parliament. But we went this far ourselves: That this was the place where railway expenditures should be made known, but made known at a time when they would not harass

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the management of the system. Consequently the committee was appointed to look into the whole situation and see when, and by what means, those things should be known. Now the hon. member asks for what purpose should they be made known? Just in order that the people of Canada would know about it and realize how their railway system had been managed. If such things, for example, were revealed as disclosed a lack of care on the part of the directorate, then the very fact that they were revealed would bring home to the government the need of altering that directorate. Undoubtedly no one could argue, no one did argue, that it was not necessary that these matters at the proper time be made known, and made known in whatever detail hon. members might desire. The only thing we wanted to guard was that we did not so pry into matters of operation while operation was on as to harass the management of the system. Now,
1	think I have made the matter clear, and T know that two years ago there was no difference of opinion that we should go that far. There were others who argued we should go far further, a great deal further-that we should go into these matters at any time. But all I ask now is that we do go as far as the House, as every hon. member of the House, was ready to go two years ago and that a committee should be appointed to work the matter out, and complete the work of the committee of two years ago.


Robert Forke: I can only say I was not expressing an opinion, I simply wanted information.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 2-Agreements with other companies or municipalities:
Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the effect of this clause?


Thomas Langton Church: The effect of this clause
2	is to enable the directors of the National Railways to enter into an agreement, which they cannot do now, for the sale of part of a national railway to a municipality. At present they can only sell to another railway company. The object of the bill is to enable the directors of the National Railway to sell part of the Toronto Suburban railway to the city of Toronto. There has been a change of policy on the part of the new board of directors. The old board had a friendly working arrangement with the Hydro-power municipalities of central Ontario, including the Niagara, Hamilton, and Toronto districts. The Hydro-power municipalities are 346 in number. These have a cheap light and power
system of their own which is operating successfully and paying a large surplus. They wished to go into the railway business and to take in certain railways operated by the National system and establish a radial system of their own, including the Toronto Eastern, the Niagara and St. Catharines, and the Toronto Suburban. The by-laws for this purpose were adopted by the interested municipalities. No politics intervened in connection with this scheme. Liberals and Conservatives alike worked together from the start of the Hydro in the interests of improved transportation by radials and the people's own light and power scheme which operates at cost.
The plan proposed would have the effect of relieving the National railways of these three radials and heavy deficits. The people of Toronto have recently taken over the street railway system there. They have spent $17,000,000 in betterments, have rebuilt 140 miles of track, and are to pay nearly $12,000,000 as a result of an arbitration for the acquirement of the Toronto street railway. They have eliminated private ownership of the street railway franchise within the borders of the city and all other electric franchises except the small section referred to, the Toronto Suburban railway within the city limits. It is to consummate the purchase of this line within the city that the present proposed legislation is necessary. The acquisition by the city of the Mackenzie and Mann radial lines running in various directions in the county of York left the railway in question the only line not under the control of the municipality. Arrangements have been made for taking this line over, and arbitrators have been appointed for that purpose. The policy of the old board of directors of the National system was to work harmoniously with the Hydro in rural and urban municipalities. An arrangement had been entered into to sell these three roads to the Hydro municipalities interested: first, the radial system in the Niagara district known as the Niagara, St. Catharines and Toronto railway; second, the Toronto and Eastern railway, to be built from Toronto to Bowmanville, partly constructed; third, the Toronto Suburban railway running partly through the city and over 62 miles of track to Guelph partly on the highway and partly on a private right of way. The by-laws, based on the options obtained with the old board of directors of the National railways were submitted to the people and carried and options for the purchase of the three roads were given to the municipalities affected
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in the districts in which the three roads were. The ratepayers thoroughly discussed the project, the Hydro Commission engaged experts in the United States to study the question from the standpoints of engineering, commerce, traffic and policy, and decided to carry out the plans. Some of these municipalities are represented in this House by Liberals, others by Conservatives. The by-laws were carried by large majorities. What happened after the vote had been taken and the bonds for the purchase of these roads had been deposited in the proper quarter. An election was held, a new government came in, a new, railway board was appointed and they went back on these solemn agreements and options with the Hydro.
I may say that in the operation of this radial railway scheme Liberals and Conservatives are united. There has been no politics in the administration of the Hydro Electric Power Commission of Ontario, the object is to carry out a cheap light, heat, power and transportation scheme at cost and give proper service. In Toronto private ownership has disappeared in a light, power and transportation sense. The municipality has bought out the private companies and they were glad to get out. In the past under private ownership the operation of these radials created large deficits; but the municipalities by rebuilding the line and carrying out certain betterments and economies will soon place the lines upon a paying basis, and they are now giving most efficient service. What has happened in consequence of the change in the directors of the Canadian National Railways? The President, Sir Henry Thornton, had scarcely been installed in office when he sent a telegram to the Board of Trade of the city of Toronto going back on the radial options given and virtually declaring war. At that time an election was pending, the people were voting on the various hydro radial bylaws to which I have referred, they wanted to be left alone, they desired to help the National railways through the medium of hydro radials of the new plans as Ontario has always done. As I say there are 346 municipalities directly interested in the Hydro Electric and radial schemes. They have no quarrel with private ownership. They respect the men who went into the privately-owned light and power companies and who bore the heat and burden of the day and then sold out to the Hydro. But the owners of these private systems wanted to sell out and the municipalities bought them out. Sir Henry Thornton, as I say, sent a telegram to the Board of Trade of Hamilton 
which upset the proposed hydro radial schemes by which so many municipalities had planned to go ahead with the extension and operation of their own hydro radial system. In connection with the acquisition of the Toronto Suburban railway a letter was written the Board of Control of Toronto by Mr. Walter Gow of Blake, Lash and Cassels. It was referred to in a report to the city council in this question before the board of control. I will not read his letter but he says that the bondholders have bonded the entire road from Toronto to Guelph and they were not going to be allowed to sell part of the road or the bonds on the whole would come due. The bondholders would set up the "doctrine of severance" in law, and if part were sold the bonds on all would become due. So I contend that the government cannot sell part of this road legally to the city, or the doctrine I have referred to would apply and the debentures on all the road would become due.
If this section is passed to-day what will be the result? The National Railways can sell this road to a municipality. I have no objection to the second part of the section, to enable the Canadian National to sell the entire road, but I object to the Canadian National Railways coming around after the hydro municipalities have a radial scheme of their own validated by the people at the polls and for which the municipalities are willing to pay, after private ownership has proven a failure in its operation of the three Mackenzie and Mann roads in the district, and after the government agreed to let them go to the Hydro-I say I do object to having Sir Henry Thornton upset all this.
The Toronto suburban roads have gone behind $70,000 since September 1, as the board of control's report which I have here shows. The acceptance of the offer means that the city of Toronto will have to pay the deficit incurred by these lines, which will amount to about $70,000, and about $190,000 for the city sections of the Toronto Suburban. I cannot understand why Sir Henry Thornton comes along and wants to spend a lot .more of the money of the taxpayers of Canada on three radial railways which railways should be taken over by the municipalities and without a dollar's cost to Canada. The municipalities are willing and eager to take them over and to release the government of this country from any further liability and all the large capital expenditures and deficits, and will rebuild them without cost to the country and incorporate them in a hydro system. If the proposition is accepted it will save the

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country millions of dollars. The people's own Hydro Electric radial will act as feeders for the National Railways and millions of dollars of business for the National in the future would have been obtained by Sir Henry Thornton and his directors if he had sold these radial roads to the municipalities and let them operate them. He came along and upset it all after the people of Toronto had carried by-laws to take over the two roads-the Toronto and Eastern and the Toronto Suburban. The people of the district from Toronto down to Bowmanville had carried bylaws to take over as a hydro radial the Toronto and Eastern partly built which would have been a great financial success. The people in the suburban districts around Toronto through the constituency of the hon. member for West York (Sir Henry Drayton) had carried by-laws. So had the people in the municipalities from up to Halton and they were to thus have a radial system of their own which would have solved their difficulties, and would have brought the farm produce into the city at all hours of the day, thus solving under-production and unemployment and conferring a great boon on the people of many counties in central Ontario. [DOT] Now Sir Henry Thornton comes along and proposes a radial system of his own, known as the National radial scheme for the Toronto district. I venture to say no practical man who knows anything about radials will approve of the scheme and that it will never pay the fixed charges on the proposed road. In the first place he proposes to electrify the Toronto and Eastern and link it up with the old belt line on the Don and then connect with the Guelph section of the Toronto Suburban. As I say, it will go along the old belt line and across the northern part of the city north of St. Clair avenue and through the city of Toronto and York county and link up with the Guelph system of the Toronto Suburban. That proposal is absurd and will be a huge failure for this reason: The city of Toronto is spending $26,000,000 in rebuilding the Toronto harbour and one of the main reasons why they are spending that money themselves has been to eliminate level crossings on the water front and in the city proper where many people have been killed in past years, where traffic is blocked and where the conditions have become intolerable. After we signed a viaduct agreement with the government of Can-4 p.m. ada, the Grand Trunk Railway, and the Canadian Pacific Railway to build a viaduct and eliminate all level crossings on the water front, it seems to me a pity that we cannot have this viaduct built. * Now Sir
Henry Thornton comes along to the north and will establish sixteen level crossings in the northern part of the city of Toronto, and the township of York at the following streets: Bowie avenue, Bromley, Rowland, Fourth and Fifth streets, Sydney avenue, Dufferin street, Rosebury avenue, Sixth street, Second street, Cheyne avenue, Hilltop avenue Mayfair avenue and city line In other words, it is going to take $32,000,000 presently and in the future to eliminate the sixteen level crossings which with one sweep, without consulting the municipalities, Sir Henry Thornton proposes to establish for his radial in and to the north and west of the city of Toronto.
This radial scheme will never pay the interest on the bonds. The people's own system of radials is what the people of the city and the farmers want. They carried the by-laws for their own system by a large majority, in many cases by three to one in the Toronto district, and the people's own hydro radial system was to run along the water front on elevated tracks with no level crossings. The railways come in on elevated tracks. It is a fast express service that the people want. Sir Henry Thornton's scheme will use the Toronto and Eastern and the old belt line will electrify them and run over them, and will involve sixteen level crossings. Not only that, but he comes along after the city of Toronto has spent $30,000,000 to acquire the Toronto railway and provide betterments, parallels part of the city line, and does a local business.
I am very much surprised if this is what we are to expect from the Canadian National Railways and I think we might as well close up altogether if they are going to spend millions in the foolish and unnecessary manner proposed here, and establish sixteen level crossings over the township of York and Scarborough and the city of Toronto after we had in good faith made an agreement with the government to have our own system without cost to Canada, spent millions on the water front to improve the harbour and 'eliminate level crossings, acquired our own light and power scheme, and taken over our street railway system. I am surprised that Sir Henry Thornton should come along and propose such an absurd scheme involving the creation of sixteen more level crossings. The privately-owned Mackenzie and Mann roads were glad to sell out to the city of Toronto as they had deficits on their radials and I think there was just as good business ability in the Mackenzie and Mann Company as there is in the management of the Canadian National road.
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This Sir Henry Thornton radial scheme has not the confidence of the people of the county of York. I will leave that to the hon. member for West York, and other members from that district. The people of this district, Liberals and Conservatives alike, wanted their own radial programme and the people of the York district will not back up this new radial proposition. It is not their own scheme but a scheme which the people do not want, which will add to the deficit of the National Railways by millions of dollars, and will establish a system of level crossings, the like of which is not to be found in the city of Toronto to-day. There are 320 hydro municipalities that want to be the friends of the National Railways and to spend their money on a radial scheme of their own to do this work which the Dominion government should never be asked to do. The hydro radials would act as feeders to the Canadian National. Why should Sir Henry Thornton put forward the proposition now before us, and why should we be told that this money is going to be spent for the benefit of the farmers of York when they do not want it? It could not be called a work for the general advantage of Canada by the widest stretch of imagination, yet we are going to spend millions of the taxpayers' money to put this radial proposition through. The people want their own hydro radial system and they want an elevated fast traction entrance into the city of Toronto. Under the scheme proposed by Sir Henry Thornton we will have a slow system over level crossings and we will have great deficits.
It seems to me that the present board of directors of the National Railways have altogether too much power. They are going up and down the country spending millions of dollars in building skyscrapers and promising Ottawa and other parts of the country new terminals. They have promised the city of Ottawa new terminals. They have made a trip to Hamilton and other cities and promised to spend millions of dollars on terminals there, which will never be built, and if the board of directors of the National Railways would only carry out the capital commitments and agreements which they have now conditions should be better.
There are many other agreements with priority which the Canadian National Railways cannot carry out, involving millions of dollars, from coast to coast, and here we have a board of directors going up and down the country promising the people something which they know they can never give them because parliament 'will never vote the money. I want
fMr. Church.]
to discover, if I can, just w7hat powers this National Railway Board has. Under the British North America Act 'parliament is defined as comprising two houses, the House ot Commons and the Senate; but it seems to me that under the new order of affairs, since Sir Henry has come, we have three houses of parliament, the House of Commons, the Senate, and the House of Thornton. It is pretty nearly time, I think, that rve had responsible government in Canada, so far at any rate as railway matters are concerned. Parliament is responsible to the taxpayers; yet we have no control over the spending bee of this board. Now, public ownership is not responsible for the present railway situation in this country; the condition of affairs that exists to-day in connection with our railways is attributable to the operations of private ownership. I think Sir Henry Thornton should carry out the agreements made by the late government with these hydro municipalities in the Niagara, Hamilton and Toronto districts, where both Liberals and Conservatives and all the people are interested in the hydroelectric radial scheme. We desire to cooperate with the Canadian National Railways, with whom we are friendly; and it seems to me that it would be better for Sir Henry to endeavour to work hand in hand with the municipalities instead of sending such a telegram as he did to the Hamilton Board of Trade on the eve of a municipal election, proposing a system of radials which would never pay the interest on the investment. It is a level-crossing system and is perfectly absurd, for you cannot get directly from one point to another. If you wish to travel from point A to point B you are bound to go over a circuitous route; you must touch at C and D in three other sections before you can finally reach B in a straight line. It is the most absurd sort of radial system one could imagine, and if you are going to run the Canadian National Railways in that manner at all you are bound to have deficits. I do not regard the minister as being responsible for this condition of affairs in connection with this particular line. I believe that if he had his way he would carry out the agreements made with the late government and give the municipalities a chance to have their own system. I certainly am of the opinion that if the agreement were carried out it would relieve the country of a very heavy financial burden which is unavoidable under the York Radial plan proposed. I repeat again that it would be by far the best thing for the minister to carry out the honourable bargain entered into with these municipalities.

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George Perry Graham: The question raised by my hon. friend in regard to the rights of the bondholders being protected calls for a remark, I think. The bondholders of the Toronto Suburban are subject to the terms of the franchise of the old Toronto Junction, now Ward 7 of Toronto, just as are the shareholders. Outside of the franchise their rights would have to be secured in any sale made. These are my instructions from the solicitor of the Canadian National Railways. This bill is to allow the Canadian National Railways to sell to the city of Toronto certain portions of the suburban railway lying within the municipality. The reason for this bill is the fact that, while under the statute of 1919 the Canadian National Railway Company was empowered to make agreements with other railway companies, it was not empowered to sell to the municipality. The franchise expired in 1921, and Toronto desires to take over the portions of this line within the city, so that it is necessary to have the Canadian National Railway Company empowered to treat with the municipality as they are empowered to treat with other railway companies.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Can my hon. friend tell me why the decision to sell lines which to quite a large extent depend on municipal franchise was reversed? It was thought good Dominion policy that the Dominion railways should in fact be steam railways. True, they might be electrified afterwards, but it was thought best that the railways of the larger lines should be operated by steam. It was regarded as good policy to sell these electric lines, many of which depend on the municipal franchise, to the people that gave the franchises, getting out every cent of money we had in the lines and securing an agreement that we should get the benefit of all freight produced. Why is the partial sale being made instead of a total sale, so far as Dominion governmental interest is concerned? I want to tell my hon. friend that there are more people interested in this question than are to be found within the confines of the city of Toronto. If there is one disgraceful railway on the face of the earth it is that very Toronto suburban line. My hon. friend is operating cars on that line that can be duplicated only by the Toonerville trolley which we see in the papers in the morning, and the only reason that things are in their present lamentable shape is that for years it was understood that the municipalities were to get these properties, so that we have been putting up with this condition in the meanwhile. Why is the original proposition being departed from?


George Perry Graham: The new board of management believe that these are very valuable properties that should be secured for the Canadian National system rather than be disposed of to any interest. If they are not properly managed they are now subject tc the board of commissioners the same as any other part of the National Railway system. The people should have a good service.


Henry Lumley Drayton: But they are not getting it.


George Perry Graham: They should. The municipalities east of Toronto rather expressed the view in the last election that they did not wish to have the radial system, and I think that the city of Toronto itself expressed that view. That being the case I believe the board is acting wisely. But, apart altogether from that, here is a property consisting of some electric railways which are feeders to a large extent to the Canadian National system and which are owned by that system. Why should they be sold to anyone else? I admit that service to the people is the prime consideration, but if that service be given-and it can be given by that company as well as by any other-then why should we all over Canada who have an interest in this property sell it to someone else? These, I think, can become in a more extensive manner feeders to our Canadian National Railway system, and I agree with the board that it would be unwise to hand these feeders over to some other companj^ that might operate them against our interest; but when we own the feeders, when we own the electric lines some of which run parallel, or nearly so, to our own steam lines, then it makes no difference which way the traffic, goes, it belongs to the Canadian National Railway system. It has been a difficult proposition to work out, and in the main I agree with my hon. friend that electric railways are in a different category from steam railways. But. here we have electric railways that came into our possession through the purchase of the Canadian Northern system and all its ramifica.-tions. I agree with the board that if these electric railways are a good paying system, or can be made so, the Canadian National Railway Company, serving all the people of the Dominion, should retain them rather than sell them to any person else. But, of course, the people should be served by the National as well as by any other company.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend is working in the larger issue with one which

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is a good deal smaller. There is no doubt that the general radial policy did suffer defeat at the hands of the ratepayers at the last municipal election, and there is also no doubt what the reason was. I will come to that reason in a minute. But apart from the general scheme there was also the idea that these lines could be easily owned by the municipalities. They were willing to undertake the burden and to agree that the Dominion should get quit of everything. And my hon. friend well knows that these lines were not paying. The St. Catharines branch has always paid, and there is no reason why it should not continue to pay; but the Toronto Suburban has never paid a cent, nor has the Toronto and Eastern. However, it was thought that with the local business which could be worked up these lines could be made to pay and to become valuable feeders to the national railway. And I do not know that it hurts a steam road at all to have this local traffic collected for it. However that may be, my hon. friend takes the position which he has just declared to us. We have not yet had any particulars, and I should like to know whether my hon. friend is implementing in his vote what he says ought to be done for the people of these counties? We have not cars, we have not tracks, we have not service, and it costs money to give us these.


George Perry Graham: Which one are you referring to?


Henry Lumley Drayton: The Toronto
Suburban.


George Perry Graham: Running to Guelph?


Henry Lumley Drayton: It runs up to
Woodbridge, and through part of the riding of my right hon. friend, the Prime Minister. Is my hon. friend taking that up in his estimates this year?. These people might be getting service to-morrow if the sale be put through. 'My hon. friend says the people are entitled to that service. Will he see that it is given to them?


George Perry Graham: The whole question of
suburban service is now being considered by a committee of the Canadian National Railway Board if I remember correctly. The line to which my hon. friend refers is in a little different position to the one I had in mind when I was discussing the larger question of radials. That line might well be discussed at closer range. It is really a smaller line subsidiary to Toronto.


Henry Lumley Drayton: So is the Toronto and Eastern.


George Perry Graham: I had the larger radial
scheme in mind. I shall be glad to discuss that with the board.


Mr. CHAPLIN:: The minister has referred to the Niagara Central This is one of the roads that have been allowed to deteriorate, and to-day it lacks equipment, and the people in the counties served by it are not satisfied with the way it is operated. Besides lack of service the municipalities concerned, not only the city that I come from but the adjoining municipalities, complain that they are not able to get their streets paved because the management of the road will not in any way conform to the wishes of the people in this respect. It seems to me that something should be done in such cases. This road Should not be allowed to remain in itd present shape, and the municipalities should be met by the management in a reasonable spirit and be allowed to make public improvements.


George Perry Graham: I agree altogether with my hon. friend that the fact that- the Canadian National Railway Company retains own-ersip of any of these lines should not militate against proper co-operation with the municipalities affected. I shall be glad to call the attention of the president of the road to what my hon. friend has said. He is referring to St. Catharines, I presume?


James Dew Chaplin: And to the villages of Merritton and Port Dalhousie, all of which very recently have made representations regarding the condition of the road, which has continued for a considerable time. In my judgment the road has not been operated either in the interests of the road itself or of the municipalities through which it runs. It seems to me that some movement should be made by the management to get in touch with these municipalities. As I understand it, the franchises under which the road is operating have been allowed to lapse. Someone should get in touch with the municipalities and assure them that the franchises will be taken up and that the wishes of the local people will be treated in a reasonable spirit. When a municipality goes to the management to-day and asks to be allowed to fix up its streets it is met with the reply, ''Oh, we have not got any money to fix the street." The result is nothing is done, and of course the people are getting sore with the management. It is not in the public interest that

Chinese Immigration
the present condition of things should be allowed to continue. *


Mr. BAXTER:: The discussion Las taken a fairly wide range and I trust that I may be in order in what I am going to ask, but if the minister is not prepared with an answer now I should like him to give it to me later on. When he visits the New York Central station he sees a wonderful ceiling representing some of the heavenly bodies. If he were to visit the humble city of St. John-very humble, though hoping some day to rival New York

he would see not merely a few of the constellations but all the stars that are visible in the northern hemisphere. Some years ago in an attempt to repair the roof the whole structure collapsed. Since that time the site has been surveyed and re-surveyed, it has been measured and re-measured, it has been taken apart and put together theoretically, and yet so far, except for the few holes that have been drilled, we cannot find anything that evidences the commencement of a new railway station. I know the deficit is formidable, but still the rigours of a New Brunswick winter are not at all relished by those who have to use the open air train shed at St. John. Down there it is becoming a case of "How long, 0 Lord, how long." If the minister can get information from the railway board and transmit it through this House to the long-suffering public in St. John, I know they will be glad to receive even the shadow of a promise of the commencement of this much-needed work. The new chairman of the railway board was in St. John and made a speech-a remarkable thing-not exactly in the open-air train shed but very close to it. He must have observed the celestial roof, and I should have thought, with the rapidity with which things are now moving in the Canadian National Railway world, we would have seen before this a brick or stone or concrete commencement of a new station. But as yet there is nothing. We have great expectations, but nothing more.


George Perry Graham: Of course, man cannot live by bread alone. The new railway board and the Department of Public Works have been in consultation respecting the terminals at St. John and the harbour developments there. I do not know just how far the discussion has proceeded, but there has been some difference of opinion as to how far the Canadian National terminals and the harbour developments of the Department of Public Works are being co-ordinated.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: That would hardly affect the railway station.


George Perry Graham: I do not know. However, if I can get a ray of hope from the board for my hon. friend I will try to extract it.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: If the minister will simply get us the truth, whatever it is, we shall be interested to hear it. If they are not going to do it, let us know.	,


Henry Lumley Drayton: With reference to that telegram from the president of the Canadian National Railways to the effect, that the Dominion would electrify the railways in the district referred to, my hon. friend knows that the people are very anxious to get that electrification if they can, and I would ask him whether the suggestion contained in the telegram was merely a pious aspiration, or was it really meant? Do the minister's estimates this year provide for the electrification of that line? *


George Perry Graham: Not so far as I know.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Then what was the idea of the telegram?


George Perry Graham: I did not send it.


James Dew Chaplin: We see in the papers a statement to the effect that a million dollar site has been purchased for a new ticket' office building in Toronto. It will cost another million to put up a suitable building, and the people in our district, who find that there is no money available to put the road in shape to do business in their part of the country, are very much interested in knowing whether it is true that a million dollars will be spent in that way.


Thomas Langton Church: Mr. Chairman-


The CHAIRMAN:: All this discussion with regard to a station at St. John and the erection of buildings in Toronto is out of order. Shall clause 2 carry?


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.	[DOT]
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
The House again in committee on Bill No. 45, respecting Chinese immigration, Mr. Gordon in the Chair.
Charles A. Stewart: When this bill was previously considered in committee section 3 was allowed to stand because there was some doubt whether or not the Civil Service Commission had control in respect to certain matters dealt with therein. I wish to submit a new clause 3, which I would ask the committee to accept. It is as follows:
Chinese Immigration


Mr. LADNER:: On Monday last when other features of this bill were under consideration I was under the disadvantage of being out of the city at the time and was not able to make the few observations I desire to bring before the minister. Apparently in the changed clause which the minister proposes one of the chief remedies for bringing about exclusion of the Chinese from entering British Columbia is to be by regulation through the Governor in Council. I would point out to the minister that so far as the province of British Columbia is concerned and the people there, there is one straight issue and that is whether there is to be absolute exclusion or admission of Chinese into the province.


George Newcombe Gordon: The question of admission of Chinese is not before the committee at the moment. The question before the Chair is the appointment of officers.


Leon Johnson Ladner: The minister referred to certain regulations and the clause deals with the question of regulating immigration into Canada. As I understand it, the powers are wide enough to cover that, I shall only be a minute or two with respect to the question

I have under consideration. Last year a resolution was introduced by the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. McQuarrie) asking for exclusion. We are told by the Prime Minister that effective restriction would be provided by the amendment which was proposed at that time, and that the effective restriction thus proposed was the diplomatic way of bringing about exclusion to the satisfaction of the people. Now this bill is the fulfilment of the Prime Minister's promise at that time. It is to carry out the pledge of effective restriction, and my submission is that the clauses which propose to bring about the restriction by order in council will not be effective because of the ingenuity of the applicants in their efforts to enter this country. I also submit, Mr. Chairman, that the feature of the bill dealing with merchants will permit of an immigration which is not consistent with the wishes of the people of British Columbia, who are in fact insisting-


George Newcombe Gordon: The hon. member's remarks would more properly come under section 5 which confines immigration to certain classes.


Leon Johnson Ladner: I merely wish to make the general observation that so. far as this matter is concerned the provisions are not strong enough to keep out the Chinese, and the minister will have to be very careful when he comes to make his orders in council because otherwise the same ingenious devices will be resorted to by the wily Chinese that have been resorted to during the past number of years. I think that upon reflection the minister might consider the wisdom and expediency of making whatever restrictive measures he proposes part of the act itself rather than leaving it to order in council.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Section as amended agreed to.
On section 5-Immigration confined to certain classes:
Charles A. Stewart: We had a good deal of discussion on Monday when the bill was up for consideration and an amendment was suggested by my hon. friend for New Westminster attempting to define what we call merchant, but it was not defined in that way, and it was suggested by the Prime Minister that a merchant should be defined as one
-engaged in import and export trade, including sales agents and purchasing agents while representing bona fide Chinese exporters and importers carrying on international trade between Canada and China, buying from or selling to persons, firms or corporations in Canada.

Chinese Immigration
I think, Mr. Chairman, that if we adopted that definition and put it in the act it would increase the duties of our immigration officers a thousandfold, because it would be statutory and no regulation would affect it. It is needless for me to point out to the members from British Columbia the difficulty of enforcing any regulation or statute even against immigration of the character <-we are trying to regulate and control, and if it would meet the wishes of the committee I would move to add after the word "merchant" the words "to be defined by regulation". My hon. friend for Vancouver South (Mr. Ladner) has just raised some objections in connection with the definition of that word. Our difficulty is this. Every advantage is taken not only by the Chinese, but by orientals generally of any implication by which they can enter the country. For instance, I am told by the officers of the department that in China they are in much the same position as we were in the days when the small shoemaker was the only manufacturer of boots in Canada and made boots in a room in his own house. Now he would come under such a definition as has been suggested. I merely mention that as one case. The officers of the department inform me that the amendment suggested by my hon. friend would really be wider than the old act, and if we put such a definition into the statute we would have a much more difficult task controlling the entry of Chinese into British Columbia than we have under the existing law. What I read to the committee the other night was the regulation I proposed to apply. It provided that before a merchant left China he would have to establish the fact that he had been engaged in business in China as a merchant, that he had a certain sum of money invested there in his business, and that when he came to Canada he would engage in the business of merchandising stuff grown or manufactured in China. But the proposal suggested by my hon. friend was that we should exclude by statute
-any merchant's clerk, or other employee, tailor, mechanic, huckster, pedlar, or person engaged in taking, drying or otherwise preserving fish for home consumption or exportation, or having any connection whatever with a laundry or restaurant.
To put that definition in the act would tie our hands if there are legal methods by which they can get around that provision, but when it is left to regulation all we would have to do in case of an evasion would be to cover the case by an amended regulation at the next meeting of the cabinet. In any case we must take the responsibility for the enforcement of this act, and I am asking
for this act in order to strengthen my hands in the enforcement of the law. We have confined immigration to merchants and students, and we think it best to leave the definition to regulation which can be amended within a day by the cabinet rather than having to wait for the next session of parliament as we would have to do if there was a statutory definition.


Mr. CARROLL:: I may say that I am in
perfect accord with the minister in not defining words in the statute unless it comes in as part of the interpretation of the act. I think that our governments are going altogether too far in that direction. These words have a well-defined meaning, their meaning has been defined by the courts of the country, and I think that the words should be left in the act bearing the interpretation that the courts of our country have placed upon them. In the present instance I am not objecting to the minister making regulations defining these words, but I do strenuously object to having the statutes of this country laden down and overborne with definitions of mere words that have been interpreted by the courts on various occasions as meaning such and such a thing. However, if the minister says he is going to make regulations governing the matter it may be a different thing.


Leon Johnson Ladner: I was going to suggest to
the minister the wisdom of putting in the specific class of Chinese which will be excluded, and which are set out in the amendment, and then adding provisions enabling the minister to supplement that by order in council.


Charles A. Stewart: I may point out to my hon. friend that we have done that. If he will read further he will see the words: "Who shall substantiate their status to the satisfaction of the controller at the port of entry subject to the approval of the minister."


Mr. NEILL:: May I point out to the minister that what he proposed the other day is a different regulation from what he is now giving us; apparently his definition has blossomed into quite a different statement and now includes fish dealers, hucksters, tailors, etc. As I. understood it the other day the regulation, which the minister said was a regulation adopted by his department, was along the lines that a merchant had to have $2,500 invested in a bona fide business in China and must show evidence of his intention to invest the same sum of money here. That is quite a different regulation from what he has suggested to-day. I would like an explanation of that?
Chinese Immigration


Charles A. Stewart: They are
identical with the exception that I have added clauses at the end. The other day it was in positive form but to-day it is in negative form-that is all the difference. I have discovered that the provision is much more effective worded in this way.


Alan Webster Neill: Is the regulation which the
minister alluded to the other day set forth in the amendment which he has now moved?


Charles A. Stewart: No, I do
not propose to make it a statutory amendment. I simply give it to the committee as a regulation under which we could work acceptably.


Alan Webster Neill: In that regard then I agree
with the hon. members who have spoken and who have suggested that it should be embodied in the act, with all due deference to the hon. member (Mr. Carroll) who spoke from an opposite point of view. If necessary, take also power to add to the definition by regulation. If the minister is in Ottawa and the controller is in Vancouver or Victoria, the decision on which will be based the rejection or acceptance of a Chinese merchant must be conveyed by that minister to that controller by some means of communication and I suggest it would be done by writing or by wire. Therefore that communication must contain what, in the opinion of the minister, is the definition of a merchant and on that decision the controller in Vancouver or Victoria, who has no jurisdiction of his own, will act. Now if the minister can define to his satisfaction, as he must eventually, what is a merchant, in his office and by regulation, why can he not place the definition in the act? Suggestion has been made that the Chinese are very alert in getting round any regulation that is adopted and therefore it is necessary to have a loose definition; but in the final analysis language must be used to express the minister's conception of a merchant, and if that language can be used in a regulation, it can be equally used in an act which will be much more effective than merely leaving the term merchant in a blank form.


Charles A. Stewart: I gave the committee my conception of what I would embody, as defining "merchant," in a regulation; but I also take care to point out that we have this advantage over placing a definition in the statute. My hon. friend desires to have that regulation a statutory one. If we make it statutory I cannot say to him, nor can he perhaps say, that it will be with full assurance that we have sufficiently covered the situation. Take for example the amend-

ment suggested in the discussion the other day. I find, after investigation, that had we adopted it we would have widened the provisions of the statute in a way that I could not possibly control. I am willing to take the full responsibility of giving the best administration possible under this act, but I say to the committee: Leave me free to make any amendment by regulation to cover any contingency that may arise that we have overlooked. That, can be done by way of regulation but if it is provided that it must be by statutory enactment it will not be possible to meet a possible contingency, if such arises, until parliament' meets at the next session.


James Shaver Woodsworth: There are two
points on which I would like to get information. It is not specifically stated whether the wives of these various classes are to be permitted to enter. Further, with regard to Chinese already in Canada, or to the merchants or students who may come in later, it is not clear whether they are to be separated from their children who have been born prior to their coming to this country.


Charles A. Stewart: So far as the student is concerned he does not acquire domicile or residence in Canada on the mere fact that he comes as a student; he is only permitted to be here during the period of his attendance at the institution of learning which he enters. So far as the merchant is concerned one of the greatest difficulties we have to contend with to-day is that the Chinaman, particularly if he is a man of even very moderate means and has property in China, does not care to become naturalized and become a Canadian citizen. The moment he does that he sacrifices the property he holds in China. The result is that his home-although he might be here for ten, or fifteen years and in some cases twenty years *-is still in China and very likely intends to go back there some time or other. He has the privilege of having two or three wives, he has two or three families, and quite frequently in late years he has asked for the privilege of bringing in his children, and we have the utmost difficulty in arriving at a conclusion as to whether the child who is seeking to obtain entry is the child of the alleged parent or not. It is a most difficult thing to do. We hope by the establishment of an official in China that we will get over a great deal of that difficulty. Wives of merchants are not admissible under the provisions of the act, largely because of the difficulty we experience in this respect. I think I would be safe in saying that not ten per

Chinese Immigration
cent of the Chinese residents of Canada are desirous of , bringing their wives. Someone has suggested that we might allow them to bring in one wife. It is a very difficult matter to deal with.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Dealing with these two points it seems to me we are nothing less than hypocritical if we talk about the immoralities of the Chinese and yet permit them to come under conditions that would breed immorality. We object to their coming because they make poor citizens, and then take from them the very things that are necessary to make them good citizens-that is the presence of their wives and children with them. I am not pleading that several wives should be admitted. That is not in accordance with our law in this country, but it would seem to me that if a man is to live in this country the least that can be done is to see that his wife, if she so desires, is permitted to come. I am not urging that she should be asked to come if the immigrant does not want to bring her. The minister suggests that a good many do not wish to establish homes in this country. We have heard it said again and again on the floor of this House that one of the dangers is that too many will come and establish residence in this country, and will bring their families, and that thus we shall have an oriental population. Those of us who have lived on the coast recognize that there is already a very considerable number of Chinese in this country who have their wives. There is a very considerable number of children who are growing up in the schools. We have to deal with them, and I cannot think that we are travelling along the right lines when we make arbitrary restrictions of this kind. A good deal has been said on the side of the exclusion of the Chinese from this country. I should like to make a few general observations, because I think we must recognize that this is by no means a small problem. No one who has lived where there is the conflict of two civilizations, of two different types of people, can be oblivious to the seriousness of the problems which arise. I am not making light of them. I confess that I am not at all sure that we are prepared at the present time to receive more orientals than we have. I know that at the present time at the coast 'conditions are far from satisfactory, and it may be necessary to have total exclusion for some time, until we are prepared to deal properly with the matter. At the same time I fancy any one who has listened dispassionately to the discussions on the floor of this House from
time to time will recognize that there is an immense amount of prejudice towards the orientals. For example, not only on the* floor of the House but in the West we have complaints about the low sanitary standards of the Chinese, and yet a year or two ago the oriental nurses or girls who wished to train as nurses were excluded from the Vancouver general hospital.


An hon. MEMBER:: Hear, hear.


James Shaver Woodsworth: An hon. member says "hear, hear". It may be well from one standpoint, that the white nurses shall not be contaminated by the presence
5 p.m. of yellow nurses-Chinese or Japanese-but I submit, since we have large numbers of orientals already in the country, that in some way or another we ought to permit them to live up to our standards. We fail to do so with danger to ourselves and to our civilization. I said last year-and I do not intend to go into the matter at length-that it does not seem to me that mere exclusion definitely solves the problem of the competition of the white with the oriental races. We may exclude them from competing with us on this side of the Pacific, but they will inevitably compete with us on the other side of the Pacific, and as long as the water remains a very easy channel of communication between the countries, the products of Asia will come to us in this country, and our workers in this country mil feel the full competition of the people over there. We simply transfer the place of competition. We make it a little less obvious, but it is there none the less, and the cargoes of goods that are coming in from time to time clearly show that this transfer has already been effected. However, if in order to maintain our standards-and I think we should do that-it is thought desirable to exclude certain classes, I would feel that at least we should give very generous treatment to the student classes to which reference is made in this act. It seems to me that we must very definitely and consciously attempt to overcome the prejudices which we have against men of other races and other colours than our own. All students of ethnology will recognize that after all there are a great many more things in common between the different races than things which separate us, and the apparent divergences are not so great as sometimes we imagine. The stranger has always been regarded as more or less of an enemy, and we are naturally content to look down upon those who are not of our own kind. We have been too apt to form our estimates of
Chinese Immigration

the Chinese very largely from the individuals with whom we may come in contact in this country. It is generally known that these as a rule belong to the lower classes, and that they do not fairly represent the whole of the people over there. We have to deal in these days, not merely with the individuals who come to us in this country, our laundry-men, our vegetable men, or our keepers of restaurants, or our tailors; but we have sooner or later to deal with the whole of the great people of China. We must remember that China represents a very ancient and a very high type of civilization. It is quite true that for a good many centuries Chinese civilization rejnained almost stationary, but one reason for that was that the Chinese shut themselves off from contact with the larger world outside, a policy which some in this countiy would like us to adopt with regard at least to the oriental races. We in the west have been superior very laregly because of the industrial revolution with all that it has brought to us in the advancement of science, and in the possibility of large-scale production, and may I add also in +he possibility of our securing arms which from the military standpoint have made us dominant throughout the world. But now, as thoughtful students have observed, we are losing that advantage which we have had for the last hundred years or more, and the Orient is beginning to open its dobrs to western science, to western civilization, to western industry, and to western militarism. When the hundreds of millions of people across the ocean have gained possession of the tools of production and destruction, we have no advantage, or comparatively little advantage over them. There is not much wonder that some writers are afraid of this "rising tide of colour". It is a real danger; yet there are other ways of meeting it than by attempting to turn back the rising tide. It is a dangerous proceeding for a comparatively small portion of the human race to attempt by physical force to beat back the great masses of the coloured and darker people of the world. Very great changes have come within recent years in the Orient. With regard to China, Professor A. E. Ross, Professor John Dewey, Hon. Bertrand Russell, and a host of other writers, have been telling us of the changes that are taking place in their eastern civilization. They impress upon us there is a great intellectual awakening- an awakening that may be faintly understood, if we could realize the changes that took place in Europe at the time of the renaissance. The people are being given the literature of

China in their own spoken language, and there is being translated into Chinese the literature of western Europe. A wonderful intellectual activity is consequently taking place among the masses all over China. Many of us, of course, are compelled to get at second hand these accounts of what the Chinese are doing. A gentleman returning a short time ago from China made the astounding statement that in his judgment Peking was destined to be the intellectual centre of the world. I can hardly accept that, but I cannot reject the testimony of men who are recognized authorities throughout Europe, and who declare that wonderful changes are taking place. It is a well-known fact that when an ancient civilization is touched and fertilized by a newer and different type of civilization the results are sometimes remarkable.
In view of the fact that the world has become so unified industrially and commercially, and in its political relationships, it would seem as if we had arrived at that juncture where we should very definitely attempt to establish a better understanding among the great peoples of the earth. I was very much interested in a resolution, to which reference was made on the floor of the House some few weeks ago, which was forwarded by the Federation of Canadian Students, urging that scholarships be established by the-government of Canada which would bring considerable numbers of the representatives of various nations to this country, and on the other hand would send out Canadian students to those countries for the purpose of studying conditions there. If this suggestion could be carried out it would be a very definite contribution on our part towards establishing better world relationships. In opposition to the view expressed the other day, that as far as possible we should try to keep out students I would urge on the contrary, that we should heartily welcome them. If we have anything superior in our civilization to give them, by all means let them come over and discover it, so that they may learn what has made our nation great and may take that knowledge back to their country with them. We must get away from the old idea that we would lose by their gain, that we are superior so long as we can keep knowledge and information and science to ourselves and keep these other people more or less in ignorance. I would say rather that we should welcome their students. Let us take them in and give them the very best we have to offer intellectually and morally. On the other hand, I

Chinese Immigration
should like to think that China has something worth while to offer to us. For years she was in advance of us intellectually, and led the way in some of the industrial discoveries by which the world has been blessed. She may still have something to contribute to the progress of the world intellectually and spiritually. I am looking, however, to the practical side of the matter. If we are to avoid frictions in the future there must be a better mutual understanding among the various peoples of the world. Personally, I believe that the chief cause of modern wars is economic, but I do not believe it is the exclusive cause. One of the dangers to-day lies in the fact that we do not understand one another's position, that as nations we are prejudiced one against the other. In this discussion we have heard a good deal about exclusion. While I am not opposed to a certain measure of precaution in this direction, feeling as I do that we have a right to protect the standards of this young country, at the same time I cannot let this opportunity pass without pleading with the government and the House that they treat this question in a broad way. Do not let our prejudice blind us to the greatness of the question or to the possibilities that are open to us, as a people, of making our contribution to the solution of the great world problems which are pressing upon us in these days as never before.


Alan Webster Neill: Has section 5 been adopted?


George Newcombe Gordon: The section has been carried.


Alan Webster Neill: If I may be permitted, I should like to point out a mistake in this section. Unless I am utterly unable to interpret it, the section as it is printed is most emphatically wrong. In subsection 1 of paragraph (c) there appears the word "merchants," with whatever amendments may now have been passed. The next paragraph refers to students, and it goes on to say, "who shall substantiate their status." The substantiation called for refers only to the students and not to the merchants, as the section is at present worded; whereas I have no doubt it is the intention of the government to require this substantiation of status on the part of both merchants and students. Paragraph (2) reads:
Students coming to Canada for the purpose of attendance, and while in actual attendance, at any Canadian university or college authorized by statute or charter to confer degrees, who shall substantiate their status to the satisfaction of the controller, etc.
Clearly the merchant does not come under that provision; the relative "who" obviously refers to the students. Is there no legal gentleman on the opposite side who can take up this point? If there is not I shall have to solicit the assistance of the leader of the Opposition.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The definition of the word "merchant," it is provided, shall be left to regulation. That gives the minister an opportunity to put in anything he thinks advisable, to oblige this class of people to establish their status as my hon. friend suggests. I think that provision is broad enough to give the minister power to impose such conditions as may be necessary in order to meet what my hon. friend has in mind.


Alan Webster Neill: Perhaps I have not made my point clear. I am not referring at all to the definition of the word "merchant"; you cannot incorporate in that definition anything about the controller as we have it in paragraph (2) of subsection (c). The words "who shall," as they appear in this paragraph, clearly refer only to students, whereas it is unquestionably the intention of the bill that they shall apply to both these classes, merchants and students.


Charles A. Stewart: "Merchant" is defined by regulation and "student" by statute.


Alan Webster Neill: I am not asking the minister to define anything. My point has reference to the requirement which appears in the paragraph I have quoted calling for a substantiation of status, and I say that this requirement undoubtedly applies to both students and merchants; that, I believe, is the intention of the bill. I am simply pointing out that as the paragraph is at present worded this intention is not carried out.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: If that comma were changed to a semicolon would it not meet what my hon. friend has in mind?


Alan Webster Neill: And the next words begin on a fresh line?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes. I think if the semicolon were put in after the word "degrees" it would cover what my hon. friend has in mind?


Alan Webster Neill: And the next words to begin a new line.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It would help to elucidate it.


Alan Webster Neill: Yes, that is what I mean.
Section as amended agreed to.
Chinese Immigration

On section 24-Re-entry; registered persons, etc.:


Charles A. Stewart: : My hon. friend for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) raised the question as to the permission for the return of Chinese who had registered out under the provisions of the Chinese Immigration Act and the War Measures Act. They were to be permitted to return one. year after the gazetting of peace. Such Chinese have in their possession a certificate which permits them to return one year after the gazetting of peace in the Canada Gazette. The solicitor ' has pointed out to me that even with this section there may be doubt, but we are giving them one year in which to return to Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 26-Offences and penalties; arrest and deportation of any Chinese who has illegally entered or remained in Canada.
Charles A. Stewart: Objection was taken by my hon. friend to the clause as drafted, and he suggested that we add the words "peace officer," so that any officer might take into custody a Chinaman who was illegally in the country. That has been done by the amendment to 26. I beg to move this amendment, which is as follows:
26. Whenever any officer or peace officer has reason to believe that any person of Chinese origin or descent has entered or remains in Canada contrary to the provisions of this act or of the Chinese Immigration Act, chapter ninety-five of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1906, or any amendment thereof, he may, without a warrant apprehend such person, and if such person is unable to prove to the satisfaction of the officer that he has been properly admitted into and is legally entitled to remain in Canada, the officer may detain such person in custody and bring him before the nearest controller for examination, and if the controller finds that he has entered or remains in Canada contrary to the provisions of this act or of the Chinese Immigration Act or any amendment thereof, such person shall be deported to the country of his birth or citizenship, subject to the same right of appeal as is provided in the case of a person applying for original entry to Canada. Where any person is examined under this section the burden of proof of Such person's right to be or remain in Canada shall rest upon him. Where an order for deportation is made under this section and in the circumstances of the case the expenses of deportation cannot be charged to the transportation company, such expenses shall be paid by the person being deported if able to pay, and, if not, by His Majesty.
Section as amended agreed to.
On section 27-Arrest and deportation of Chinese who ceases to belong to exempt or admissible classes.


Charles A. Stewart: This is an addition of the same words. I move the amendment of the clause as follows:

27. Any person admitted as exempt from the tax under the provisions of the Chinese Immigration Act or any amendment thereof, or under this act, and who at any time after admission ceases to belong to any of the exempt classes as defined by the Chinese Immigration Act or any amendment thereof, or by this act, shall, unless he is a Canadian citizen, ipso facto forfeit his right to remain in Canada and may be arrested without a warrant by any officer or peace officer and brought before a controller for examination, whereupon the case shall be dealt with to all intents and purposes in the same manner and subject to the same provisions as in the case of a person apprehended under the provisions of the next preceding section hereof.
Section as amended agreed to.
On section 32-Chinese landing in violation of act, or using forged or fraudulent certificate:


Charles A. Stewart: My hon.
friend for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) took exception to this section inasmuch as it did not definitely enough set out the deportation which was to take place in addition to fine and imprisonment. I have amended the clause accordingly. I beg to move the clause as re-drafted, namely:
32. (1) Every person of Chinese origin or descent who-
(a)	lands or attempts to land in Canada contrary to the provisions of this act;
(b)	Wilfully makes use of or attempts to make use of any forged or fraudulent certificate,, or of a certificate issued to any other person for any purpose connected with this act;
is guilty of an offence and liable to imprisonment for any term not exceeding twelve months and not less than six months, or to a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars and not less than three hundred dollars, or to both imprisonment and fine, and shall be deported.
(2) Every person who wilfully aids and abets any person of Chinese origin or descent in any evasion or attempt at evasion of any of the provisions of this act, is guilty of an offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding twelve months and not less than six months, or to a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars and not less than three hundred dollars, or to both imprisonment and fine, and shall be deported unless of Canadian citizenship.


Alan Webster Neill: Are these offences to be tried by summary process or by indictment? There does not seem to be any provision here.


George Newcombe Gordon: They are all subject
to summary process.


Alan Webster Neill: But anyone reading this section would imagine the guilty persons are to be tried by the controller. It says here, "and shall also be liable to deportation when so ordered by the controller."


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Those words
are struck out in the amended section.
Section as amended agreed to.
On section 41-Chinese en route to Canada may be admitted -within one month if head tax paid:

Supply-Canada Highways


Charles A. Stewart: I merely
want to amend section 41 to avoid conflict with Chinese who may be en route to Canada, extending the time from one month to three months, As amended the section will read:
41. Notwithstanding any provision of this act or any order or regulation made thereunder, any person of Chinese origin or descent who is at the date of the coming into force of this act en route to Canada and presents himself for admission within three months from said date, shall if admissible under the provisions of the Chinese Immigration Act or any amendment thereof, be permitted to enter Canada upon payment of the head tax therein provided:
Provided that if he belongs to any of the exempt classes he may be admitted exempt from thp head tax.
If they do come and are not within the . classes defined in the act, they shall pay the head tax as formerly.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to, and section as amended agreed to.
Bill reported, as amended, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
The House again in Committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
Railways and Canals-miscellaneous-Canada Highways Commission: To provide for the organization and payment of staff of the Canada Highways Commission, including A. W. Campbell, C.E., Chief Commissioner of Highways, at $5,000 per annum, and W. R. Smythe, Commissioner of Highways, at $4,000 per annum; $70,000.
Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals): This is merely the annual vote for the Highways Commission and staff. I have already given some information in this connection, but if there is any further information lion, gentlemen desire I will try to give it.
Mr. BOYS:: Can the minister inform me, with respect to the provincial highway from Bradford to Barrie, what is the cost to date, what is the estimated cost per mile in finished state, with some reference to the specifications?


George Perry Graham: Section B, Gwillimbury
West township, mileage, 6-60; total estimated cost, $144,380; average estimated cost per mile, $21,875.75 ; 40 per cent of estimated cost, $170,292; kind of construction, gravel; amount paid to date, $107,719.86. Section E, Barrie and Oro township, mileage 1-20-


William Alves Boys: The mileage in the township of Oro would be, I should think, about 14 or 15. Where is this 1-20 miles that the minister refers to?


George Perry Graham: It would be just outside the town, not in the town.


William Alves Boys: As a matter of fact I think some of the highway is within the corporate limits, though I am not positive as to that.


George Perry Graham: We do not know anything about the provincial end of it.


William Alves Boys: Can the minister tell me just where that mileage of 1-20 is?


George Perry Graham: It is east of Barrie. Barrie and Oro township, 1-20 miles; estimated cost, $14,850; average estimated cost per mile, $12,375, kind of construction, macadam: Section F, Oro and Vespera townships, 1-60 miles; total estimated cost, $18,500; average cost per mile, $11,562; construction, macadam. Subsection G-l, Oro township, 3-60 miles; total estimated cost, $45,400; average estimated cost per mile, $12,611; macadam. Subsection G-2, Oro township, mileage 6-40; total estimated cost, $71,400, average cost per mile, $11,156.25; macadam. Subsection 11, Orillia township, mileage 4-20, total estimated cost, $48,110; average estimated cost per mile, $11,454.76; macadam. Subsection 12, Orillia totwnship, mileage 4-80; total estimated cost, $83,090; average cost per mile, $17,310.41; gravel.	*


William Alves Boys: In connection with the portion of road just outside Barrie, approaching the township of Oro but not within the corporate limits of Barrie, there is a corner which was purchased from a Mr. Hughes. Will the minister tell me what was paid for that little corner and for a couple of scrub apple trees upon it?


George Perry Graham: This government does not know anything about that. We had nothing to do with the approaches. That is a matter for the provincial government.


William Alves Boys: I presume that when the Department of Railways and Canals is called upon to pay forty per cent it must know exactly what the total is, and the total is made up of the road construction with the bit of property I referred to and similar corners included.


George Perry Graham: The province provides the right of way and we only contribute forty per cent towards the real road. We do not have anything to do with the right of way. They have to furnish that, and our auditors see that no right of way is put in the accounts as against the forty per cent contributed by the federal authorities.
Supply-Canada Highways


William Alves Boys: Then the estimates the minister has given me now do not include anything whatever for the cost of the right of way?


George Perry Graham: No.


William Alves Boys: Do they include anything for the cost of ornamental trees, for instance?


George Perry Graham: No.


William Alves Boys: Or the cost of construction of new ditches?


George Perry Graham: I would imagine that would be part of the construction of the highway. That is for the drainage.


William Alves Boys: I would also have thought offhand that the purchasing of a corner and building a highway on it all added to the cost of construction of the highway.


George Perry Graham: In our regulations and the agreement the cost of any right of way is excluded so far as the federal authority is concerned.


William Alves Boys: It is very hard to follow these figures given rapidly across the floor, but if I understood the minister rightly he was giving the estimated cost and then the average cost, and I cannot understand it. There seems to be a considerable difference in the figures.


George Perry Graham: My hon. friend misunderstood me. Perhaps I did not read distinctly. The first figure was the total estimated cost, the next was the average cost per mile.


William Alves Boys: Those figures were given with regard to a mile and a fraction, and one would think that the estimated cost and the average cost-well, there would hardly be an average cost for a mile and! a fraction. It would be the cost of a mile and a fraction.


George Perry Graham: I do not quite get my hon. friend.


William Alves Boys: Perhaps the minister would refer to what he was kind enough to read a moment ago and see just what he read. Perhaps I misunderstood the reference entirely.


George Perry Graham: Take section B Gwillim-bury township. The mileage is 6.60; total estimated cost $144,380. The cost per mile would be $144,380 divided by 6.60 which gives $21,875.75.


William Alves Boys: There seems to be a considerable difference between the estimated cost of the highwaj' in the Gwillimbury section and the cost in the Oro section. That, I presume, is due to different specifications. Would the minister indicate what the difference is?


George Perry Graham: Take that section in Gwillimbury township for instance; that is gravel construction. In Oro township the construction was' macadam.


Mr. CHARTERS:: What proportion of the roads approved by this government have already been completed?


George Perry Graham: I will have to give that in the larger figures for each province. I might say that so far as Ontario is concerned, with so many different kinds of construction, the costs are very varied. In some cases there is extravagant construction. We are not paying forty per cent of the very extravagant construction.
Sir HENRY DRAYTON; Does that statement give the cost also?


George Perry Graham: Supply-Canada Highways


William Alves Boys: I suppose if we take the total expenditure the minister gave for Ontario and divide that by the mileage completed, which is 379.87, we would have the average cost per mile, or is there some expenditure included in the total expenditure which has reference to the 638.69 miles referred to by the minister?


George Perry Graham: The average estimated
cost per mile under agreement for each province is as follows: Prince Edward Island, $2,579.95; Nova Scotia, $8,337.80; New Brunswick, $2,384.90; Quebec, $11,326.35; Ontario, $21,018.50;. Manitoba, $4,523.49; Saskatchewan, $2,022.21; British Columbia, $8,820.52.


William Alves Boys: The minister says that in some cases the actual cost exceeded the figures quoted. I understand that these are the figures of the cost that you submit to. In the case of some other portions you have not been able to agree to the cost as returned because, I suppose, you considered it excessive. This is the approved cost, I imagine?


George Perry Graham: These figures do not give possibly the whole cost of the road. These figures are based on the cost of construction towards which we contribute 40 per cent. When the cost exceeds a certain amount we do not contribute. The cost of the roads in Ontario is possibly higher than the figures which I have given.


William Alves Boys: I suppose, as a matter of fact, that the minister would have on file the actual cost, and then what we might term the approved cost so far as the 40 per cent contribution is concerned.


George Perry Graham: We could dig that out.


William Alves Boys: I would like very much to
get that.


George Perry Graham: I will get that information for my hon. friend.


William Alves Boys: Now another question. There is a very considerable discrepancy between the average cost per mile of these roads in the various provinces of Canada to the extent, sometimes, of thousands of dollars per mile. Having in view the supervision which the department exercises, could the minister explain how it is there is such an enormous difference between the cost of constructing roads in the province of Ontario, and, for example, the cost of constructing roads in Price Edward Island, or in almost any other province of the Dominion?


George Perry Graham: In the first place each
province, to a large extent, selects the standard of its own roads. If the standard involve*

a lower cost we are quite willing to pay 40 per cent of that cost. Then there enters the question of broken stone and gravel. In some localities these are very plentiful, and in other places-if it is decided to construct a road of that kind-they may have to haul these materials a great many miles. I think the discrepancy may be due very often to the difference in the standards of the roads.


Mr. WILSON:: Will the minister give us
the estimated cost of the Hamilton and Brantford highway and the actual cost up to date.


George Perry Graham: I think that will be a
little high. The mileage is 19-18. The total estimated cost was $658,907.05 and the average estimated cost per mile $34,353.86.


Gordon Crooks Wilson: That does not include the
surfacing of the road? What does it cost to surface the road?


George Perry Graham: That work was done undei a provincial agreement. When the cost exceeds a certain figure we do not put up out 40 per cent.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The figures given merely represent the cost on which the minister puts up his 40 per cent.


George Perry Graham: The cost to which we agree.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Over and above that there are other costs and those are on file in the office.


George Perry Graham: We can get that information for my hon. friend.


William Alves Boys: Will the minister be good enough to bring at the same time the information he promised a moment ago-in other words the actual cost and what I might refer to as the approved cost?


George Perry Graham: We will find that in the correspondence probably, because application would be made for contribution for a road at a certain cost to which we would only agree up to a certain proportion.


William Alves Boys: Would the minister tell us what is the most expensive portion of highway construction in the province of Ontario and what is the cost of it?


George Perry Graham: According to our figures the one referred to is the most expensive piece of road and, so far as our approval is concerned, it cost $34,000 per mile The actual cost must have been more than that.


William Alves Boys: Is that the highest cost per mile to which the department contributes?

Supply-Canada Highways


George Perry Graham: Yes. The highest expenditure to -which we would contribute is $34,353.86.


William Alves Boys: I rather gather from what the minister has said that apparently there had been some maximum cost per mile fixed by the department. If that is so I would like to know what it is?


George Perry Graham: There has been no maximum fixed. Each case is dealt with as it comes up having regard to the conditions and the circumstances surrounding it. I am informed that no maximum has been arbitrarily fixed but that this is probably the maximum on which a contribution has been allowed.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I wonder if the minister could do this for us. We are interested, of course, in connection with road building and the cost of the different classes of roads. I suppose there are roads which are standard all over the country. For example there is the gravel road of the cheaper class.


George Perry Graham: That is standard.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Then I suppose that the gravel roads are of fairly standard width usually. I wonder if the engineer could not furnish the minister with information which would give the cost of gravel roads in all the different provinces. Then you could take concrete roads and see what the cost of those are per mile in each of the provinces. Then there are roads which are bound with different binders, apart from concrete itself. We could have those also.


George Perry Graham: I have got the mileage of those roads, but not the cost. However, I could get that information quite easily enough.


William Alves Boys: With regard to the Hamilton and Brantford highway which has been mentioned I understood from the minister's statement that so far as he knows the highest cost to which the department has contributed, up to the present, is about $34,000 per mile?


George Perry Graham: The actual figures are $34,353.86.


William Alves Boys: If I remember correctly you are to contribute 40 per cent having regard to the reasonable and actual cost of the highway. I think that is the language of the act. As a matter of fact a return brought down to this House shows that, apart entirely from the purchase price of land for highway purposes, apart from ornamental trees and other extras of that description, this particular highway cost $72,085 per mile. Now if, as a matter of fact, we are to contribute 40 per cent of the actual and reasonable cost there must be something wildly extravagant in connection with expenditure when the cost, without the extras 1 have mentioned, comes to $72,000 and the minister could only see his way clear to recommend $34,300 of that. I would like to know how it is that following the language of the statute requiring a contribution of 40 per cent of the actual and reasonable cost- and the minister I am sure desires to be fair to Ontario-he could only contribute $34,300?


George Perry Graham: Forty per cent of $34,300


Mr BOYS:: How the minister could only contribute on a basis of cost of $34,300 when the cost returned, without the extras I have mentioned, is $72,000?


George Perry Graham: I would not like to criticize the Ontario government. I see that my hon. friend is getting some good material.


William Alves Boys: Even if they deserve it?


George Perry Graham: I see the pyramid my hon. friend is piling up here.


Arthur Meighen: Just tell the facts.


George Perry Graham: I am not sure they will be appreciated.


Arthur Meighen: The facts are all we want.


George Perry Graham: Take that road as a sample; an agreement was made with this department for a certain standard of road early in the construction, the cost of which was allowed by the federal department to be $34,300 a mile. The provincial authorities changed the system and made the road much more expensive than that to which we agreed. They made a better standard of road, but they had to pay the extra cost. I am not a real authority on good roads. I would not like to say the Ontario government was extravagant in building the road they did. That is their consideration, not mine. What we were providing was that we would only pay for the standard of road to which this department agreed.


William Alves Boys: Can the minister tell us what the change was? It must have been tremendously expensive to jump from $34,000 to $72,000.


George Perry Graham: I am not sure that I am not getting beyond my depth in discussing this matter. They changed the standard and put on a great deal better surface than the standard to which we had agreed. I would not like to say offhand what they did. That is outside of our purview. The province did that in addition to anything we expended.
Supply-State


William Alves Boys: Was the department asked to contribute on the basis of $72,000?


George Perry Graham: I would imagine the federal department would be asked to contribute anything any province would hope to be able to get. There is no doubt in my mind that they asked for it but did not get it.


Mr.   ROYS@: If the minister feels sure about that, I do not want to press it unduly, but I want to know for certain whether they did ask for the contribution from this government on the basis of $72,000 a mile. '


George Perry Graham: No doubt about that at all.


William Alves Boys: The minister said there was an agreement, between the Dominion and the province.


George Perry Graham: Yes, all these roads were built under agreement.


William Alves Boys: In writing and signed?


George Perry Graham: Yes, I will give the hon. member a copy of it any time.


William Alves Boys: I would like to have that. Is there a fair wage clause in it?


George Perry Graham: We do not construct. The province would construct. I imagine they would pay the rate of wages demanded in that locality. These details are for the province. It is one of the cases where the Dominion hands over its money under certain restrictions as to expense, but the province expends the money. I do not know anything about the details. It is a public road. A copy of any agreement as to roadmaking is at the disposal of the House or any member of it.


William Alves Boys: I can assure the minister that we require considerably more information, and it will take more than a few minutes. But we are quite willing to go on.


George Perry Graham: I cannot be here after six o'clock. I was hopeful of putting it through.


Mr. SUTHERLAND:: With reference to the continuation of the Brantford-Hamiiton highway across the county I represent, I certainly would like to get some information.


George Perry Graham: If my hon. friend would let me- know what he wants, I would be glad to get it for him. It would take a cart to bring over all the documents in the department in regard to this matter.
At six o'clock the Speaker resumed the Chair and the House took recess.
After Recess
The House resumed at eight o'clock.



PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 132 (from the Senate), for the relief of John Darton.-Mr. Church.
Bill No. 133 (from the Senate), for the relief of Minnie Eileen Biggs.-Mr. Sheard.
Bill No. 134 (from the Senate), for the relief of Thomas Henry Bottomley.-Mr. Sheard.
Bill No. 135 (from the Senate), for the relief of William. Ritchie Dowd.-Mr. Garland (Carleton).
Bill No. 137 (from the Senate), for the relief of Eliza Harvey Northgraves.-Mr. German.
Bill No. 138 (from the Senate), for the relief of Olivette McMaster.-Mr. Hocken.
Bill No. 140 (from the Senate), for the relief of Mahlon Beach-Mr. Ross (Kingston).
Bill No. 141 (from the Senate), for the relief of Alfred William Kelly.-Mr. Duff.
Bill No. 142 (from the Senate), for the relief of William Austin Pickell.-Mr. Martell.
Bill No. 143 (from the Senate), for the relief of Annie May Vogelman.-Mr. Duff.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 145 (from the Senate), for the relief of Mabel Gertrude Johnston.-Mr. Mew-burn.
Bill No. 146 (from the Senate), for the relief of Wilfrid Charles Brown..-Mr. Chew.
Bill No. 147 (from the Senate), for the relief of Gertrude Andrews.-Mr. Church. .
Bill No. 148 (from the Senate), for the relief of William Henry Davidson.-Mr. McKay.
Bill No. 149 (from the Senate), for the relief of George Robert Webb.-Mr. Ross (Kingston).
Bill No. 150 (from the Senate), for the relief of Katharine Bryans.-Mr. Church.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
Civil government-Secretary of State-salaries, $127,837.50; contingencies, $29,020.	,
Mr. COOTE:: Has Mr. William Pugsley been appointed to some office in the minister's department, and, if so, does it come under this item?


Hon. A. B. COPP (Secretary of State):: It comes under a later item.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Miscellaneous-expenses under the Canada Temperance Act, $12,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: Will the minister explain this item?


Arthur Bliss Copp: This is provided in case any plebiscites are asked for during the year.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is it not entirely insufficient for that purpose?


Arthur Bliss Copp: There are only three or four places in which the act is in force-Mani-toulin island, Ontario; Thetford Mines, Brome and Stanstead, Quebec, Guysborough, Nova Scotia, and Lisgar and Marquette, Manitoba. The vote is provided in case any of these should ask for repeal.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Miscellaneous-expenses under the Naturalization Acts 1914 and 1920, $18,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: How much was spent last year? *


Arthur Bliss Copp: 

Item agreed to.
Adjustment of war claims-Secretary of State, $75,000.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What work is now going on in this connection? .


Arthur Bliss Copp: We are asking for the same amount as last year. The work is proceeding as it has been during the last two or three years, comprising the activities of the clearing office the collecting of debts, and so on.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I understood that as a result of the deputy minister's trip to Germany last year or the year before the matter had become clarified so that we were beginning to see where we were. I would not think that we should be continuing this expenditure year after year. There must be some end to this thing.


Arthur Bliss Copp: We all hope it may come to an end. We have not got all the property in that we hope to get. The clearing office in London is getting all the information it can; the same staff is employed as was engaged in the work when I took office. We have had a representative in the Old Country during the last five or six months gathering in stock and things of that kind. We hope to get the matter cleared up as soon as possible.


Mr. JOHNSTON:: How much of last year's vote was expended?



REVISED

[Stage Direction]
Supply-State-War Claims
Arthur Bliss Copp: 


Henry Lumley Drayton: How is that
made up?


Arthur Bliss Copp: Salaries, $46,635. the balance consisting of printing, travelling and legal services, and sundries.


Henry Lumley Drayton: How much
money has now been got in?


Arthur Bliss Copp: The cash on hand at the
present is $2,760,159.23.


Henry Lumley Drayton: How much of that was got in last year?


Arthur Bliss Copp: I cannot give the exact amount of money.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Approximate!: then.	*


Arthur Bliss Copp: I have a record of the transactions during the war.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What are they?


Arthur Bliss Copp: The amount and number o< claims submitted against Germany in connection with pre-war transactions is $82,829.22 representing 109 claims, for the present year and $8,691,705.77, representing 885 claims, foi previous years, or a total of $8,774,534.99.


John Frederick Johnston: It would appear to me that the further we get away from the war the more this work should diminish. Why the minister should ask for the same amount this year as last is hard for me to understand. If the claims are diminishing, the cost of administration should surely be less. I would have thought there could have been a reduction this year.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I regret we are not in a position to reduce the expenditure very much this year. We are employing the same staff, and there is a large amount of work to do carrying on the correspondence between the dealing offices. I quite realize that this is a large amount of money, but from the information I received from my officials I cannot see how we can reduce the expenditure this jear. It will please me very much when we reach the point where we can do so.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The minister was giving a list of the activities. What else is being done this year?



EDITION

[Stage Direction]
Supply-State-War Claims
Arthur Bliss Copp: I have a statement here as follows:
German claims for	debts	owing by Canadians
(b)	Period April
1, 1922,	Total as on
^To March to March March 31, 31,	1922	31, 1923	1923
Amount and number of claims
received	$7,580,494 74 $ 571,862 76 $8,152,357 50
Total number.. ..	8,081	562	8,643
Amount admitted $1,661,257 01 $ 145,794 60 $1,807,051 61 Admitted but not
credited	
78,196 22	3,355 99	81,552 21Total admitted ..	$1,739,453	23	$	149,150	59	$1,888 603	82Amount contested.	902,175	83	142,757	32	1,044,933	15Amount defective.	3,859,577	98	940,702	26	4,800,280	24
Total amount '
handled	$6,501,207 04 $1,232,610 17 $7,733,817 21
Total claims.. ..	7,121	1,047	8,168
Total number of claims received to March
31, 1923	 8,643
Total number of claims dealt with	 8,168
Balance, under investigation	 475
(c) Judgments obtained under the Treaty of Peace order in council between 1st April 1922 and 31st March 1923.
10 judgments have been entered against Canadian debtors for non-compliance with the regulations and non-payment of indebtedness.
Amount sued for	 $63,098 76
Amount collected	 $62,908 76
Amount due	 190 00
$63,098 76	$63,098 76
Previous to 1st April, 1922, 50 judgments had been entered for a total of $35,600.
(2)	The Custodian's Office (Property, Rights and Interests)-
(a)	Claims against Germany, sequestrated property of Canadian in that
country	Total claimed
Claims forwarded to Germany in respect of property of Canadians sequestrated by Germany previous to 1st April,
1922, (34), subsequent to that date,
(8), total (42)	 $5,217,878 28
Nomber and amount of claims admitted
(29)	 1,556,895 66

(b)	Proceeds of liquidation of enemy property in Canada and the crediting thereof.
The following has been credited to Germany under
Article 297.
Amount	 $844,131 02
Commission charged by this office	 17,227 15

(c)	Real Property and Securities-
(i)	Real Property in Canada-
Enemy owned estates have been sold, or partly sold, under agreements for sale
for	 $409,639 00
Instalments paid to date.. .. $100,000 00 Amount still outstanding. ..	309,639 00
$409,639 00	$409,639 00
Property not yet sold, estimated at.. ..	90,000 00

(ii)	Securities in possession of the Custodian. Under the provisions of paragraph 10 of the Annex
to section 4, part X, of the Treaty of Versailles, Germany was obligated to transfer to Canada all certificates for shares, bonds, debentures, securities, etc. To date there has been received from Germany in this connection 38,858 shares of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company and $148,580.00 Note Certificates of the same company. Other securities amounting to about $1,000,000 have also been handed over. It is estimated that all the securities would amount to about $12,000.000.
(iii)	Securities in the possession of the Public Trustee. England.
The Public Trustee in England holds approximately $6,000,000 in securities which are subject to certain liens, the amount of which is at present unascertainable, but it is hoped that at least $4,000,000 will be realized.
That is a matter of book-keeping between the local clearing office and the central clearing office. We cannot tell exactly what balance will be due us, but we estimate it to be between three and four million dollars.
We also find upon investigation that there are a number of securities held by the Alien Custodian 'of the Tinted States which we claim belong to Canada. He holds approximately 81,250,000 of Canadian securities. That is now under investigation, and we hope to get it settled during the year. I inquired recently and I think the amount is somewhat larger than I have just given. The three last mentioned items total $17,250,000 and after allowing certain deductions for shrinkage the approximate results should reach about $14,000,000.
A great many applications have been made to the department for the releasing of certain shares of stock that we have taken. In some cases we find upon investigation that stock has been taken illegally and we have to release it.
Applications for the release of enemy property vested in the custodian are continually being received on the grounds that the applicant is now an allied subject by virtue of the terms of the Treaty of Peace, or that the property was bona fide purchased by a neutral prior to the passing of the trading with the enemy regulations, May 2nd, 1916. In this connection property to the value of more than $10,000,000 (including accrued dividends) has been released, a very large proportion of this amount being Canadian Pacific Railway shares.
Nine applications have been received from Canadian women, married to German nationals, asking for the release,of their property, and in two cases the opinion of the Supreme Court was obtained and upon its ruling all applications were approved and property to the value of $225,000 was relinquished.
I do not know that I could give very much more information to the committee by reading further details but perhaps hon. members may have some special questions to ask.


Robert Forke: I understood the minister to make a statement about property sequestrated in Germany, was that correct?

Supply-State-War Claims


Arthur Bliss Copp: That was Canadian property in Germany taken over by the German government.


Robert Forke: What sort of property would it be?


Henry Lumley Drayton: They were claims by Canadian merchants. For example there was a claim by one of our large manufacturing companies which was adjusted a long time ago. Most of what the minister has been telling us is history. Take for example his account of what transpired in Germany. That happened long ago.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Certainly.
Sir HENRY" DRAYTON-: He has been settling these claims and getting back the money. For example there was the claim of the Massey Harris Company. A lot of this settling was done a long time ago. The adjusting of these matters was supposed to have been settled long since. Mr. Mulvey was sent over in order to wind it up.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Not wind it up.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Well, to arrange a system of settlement that would properly function; to get rid of all this expenditure and try and secure some final action on these matters. In spite of that I observe the vote is continuing just the same. What we are trying to find out is, what was done last year and not what has been done since the war. All these Canadian Pacific Railway shares were in long ago.


Arthur Bliss Copp: No, not all, we are getting them almost daily.


Henry Lumley Drayton: How many did you get in this year?


Arthur Bliss Copp: I could not tell my hon. friend exactly how many shares. I know we have not got them all in; they are coming in weekly and monthly; I could not say daily; and we are dealing with them just as they have been dealt with in the past.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The principal
thing done this year was to issue claims for some $62,918.76 on behalf of Canadian debtors.


Arthur Bliss Copp: My hon. friend should not say that.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Well, what else
was there?


Arthur Bliss Copp: What I have read to my hon. friend related to the work of the clearing office. It has been going on just the same during the past year as in the year before. We have the same officials and the same 159J
work is going on. We have to carry on a correspondence between the clearing offices and attend to other business. I have asked my officials if there is any possibility of getting along with a fewer number of employees and a smaller expenditure and from the statements made to me I do not see how we can.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the
attitude of the minister in regard to it? This work is going on apparently the same as it has in the past although there is not the same necessity for it. What is the idea? Is this to be a perpetual department?


Arthur Bliss Copp: Claims are still coming in from Germany and they have to be considered now just the same as they have been in the past. Possibly there are not as large amounts of money involved, the claims now, possibly, are smaller but we are trying to get then! cleared up and we need the staff to do the work.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My recollection was that a time limit was fixed for all this sort of business and it should be up by now;
I do not know whether it has been extended. What I want to know is whether this is to be a perpetual office or not. I simply want to get the facts?


Arthur Bliss Copp: I cannot tell my hon. friend just how long the work will be going on. He knows very well that you cannot settle up such matters as these in a week, or a month, or even a year. I am sure the staff have been working as faithfully as they could and with all possible speed to try and get this matter settled up. We hope to get it settled some time but I cannot say just when.


Henry Lumley Drayton: From what the minister says it is a pretty hopeless looking situation. He says the staff are working hard. Perhaps they are, as to that I cannot say. What I am trying to find out from the minister is when this work will be over. The German claims against Canada numbered 8,643. They have been looked after and all that is left on hand out of all the mess is 475 claims. There is not such an awful lot left to be done as far as that is concerned.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Claims are coming in all the time; they are coming in yet.


Henry Lumley Drayton: How many
claims were received last month? Let us get some idea.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I do not think I can tell my hon. friend that.
Supply-State-War Claims


Robert Forke: Is there no time limit for the filing of claims, or will they be received for all time?


Arthur Bliss Copp: The time has been extended.


Henry Lumley Drayton: How much
longer are you going to go on extending the time?


Arthur Bliss Copp: That is a matter which would be decided by conference between the different clearing offices, but they have not been able to get together recently on account of the difficulty between Germany and France. The whole matter is being worked out by the clearing offices of the different countries interested. This is only a local clearing office here and we have to work through the central clearing office in London. The. time limit has been extended from time to time, and I suppose will continue to be extended until such time as the Powers can get together and come to some conclusion as to the final disposition of the matter.


George Gibson Coote: Who is in charge of this work for the minister's department?


Arthur Bliss Copp: My deputy is the deputy custodian in charge of this work.


George Gibson Coote: What official title has Mr. Pugsley in connection with it?


Arthur Bliss Copp: He is a commissioner under the Inquiries Act to carry on an investigation in connection with the reparations question. He is not identified with my office at all.


George Gibson Coote: Is he steadily employed?


Arthur Bliss Copp: Just as a commissioner to make inquiries on the reparations question under the Inquiries Act.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is he paid out of this vote?


Arthur Bliss Copp: Paid out of this vote.


Richard Burpee Hanson: How much is it proposed to pay him?


Arthur Bliss Copp: At the rate of $9,000 per year.


George Gibson Coote: Who was his predecessor in this work?


Arthur Bliss Copp: Sir Douglas Hazen, of St. John, was first appointed but later on he expressed a desire to be relieved of this work and Dr. Pugsley was appointed.


Richard Burpee Hanson: How much was paid to Sir Douglas Hazen during the time he acted?


Arthur Bliss Copp: He did not occupy the office. He came up and looked into the matter and decided he would not take it [Mr. CoppJ


Richard Burpee Hanson: Did he not go to Washington? Did he not make some investigation?


Arthur Bliss Copp: I think not.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It is rather strange that the amount supposed to be paid to the Hon. William Pugsley, synchronizes with the salary of the position which he has just given up as lieutenant governor of New Brunswick? It looks to me as if this place had been made for him. I should like to point out to the minister that as long as I can remember that gentleman has never been off the payroll of the government, and I question very much the advisability of appointing him at the salary to which the minister has referred. I doubt very much if it is worth that much to the country. Has it been decided that the claims of private individuals shall have priority over the claims of the Crown in connection with the German moneys in the hands of the custodian?


Arthur Bliss Copp: I cannot quite understand
what you mean?


Richard Burpee Hanson: We are entitled to some reparation from Germany under the terms of the Peace treaty. I understand there are certain German properties in the hands of the custodian. So far none of these reparations have been received by Canada to reimburse her for expenses in connection with the war, and it is not probable, so far as we can see from the turn of events, that we will ever get anything out of Germany. Is it not supposed that the country should be re-imbursed with some of these moneys for part of the expense Canada was put to in connection with the war, and will the claims of the country have priority over the claims of private individuals?


Arthur Bliss Copp: I do not think they will. The investigation is being carried on at the present time because, under the treaty of Peace, the question of reparations and the filing of claims for reparation from Germany was advertised, and a very large number of claims have been filed, I think, amounting to twenty-five or thirty million dollars. Those have been on file in the office for the last two or three years. Some were filed as far back as 1918, Those are being inquired into now, to ascertain whether they are valid claims to be considered and whether the claims are too large. Every one who wishes to file a claim will have an opportunity of appearing before the commissioner himself, or by solicitor or counsel, and placing the facts before the commissioner, and on those facts

Supply-State-War Claims
the commissioner will make a report to the government. When that is done the question of payment of those claims will have to be decided later on, as a question of policy.
I am not in position to tell my hon. friend or the House or the country, what the final result will be when these claims have been adjudicated upon. We will have a certain amount of money obtained from property we have sold, and shares, stocks, and bonds that we are holding at the present time as custodian or trustee. After the'payment
9 p.m. of the debts between the two countries is arranged there will be a large amount. It is only an estimate but we hope there will be ten, twelve or fourteen million dollars in the hands of the custodian. The question of what will be done with that money, whether it will be applied in satisfaction, or in partial satisfaction, of claims for reparation, is a question of policy to be decided later on. I am not prepared to say how it will be settled. The same is true of the Old Country and the United States. They are carrying on investigations in the United States into the same question, to get information and obtain evidence upon which they can make a report and take action when the time comes to bring the matter to a finality.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is that question of policy one that will be decided by the federal government or the Imperial government?


Arthur Bliss Copp: I would not like to say what will be done. I think it *null be decided by a-conference between the governments.


George Gibson Coote: When was the commissioner appointed?


Arthur Bliss Copp: On the 13th March last.


George Gibson Coote: Who previously did this work?


Arthur Bliss Copp: No work was being done in regard to it. This commissioner is holding an investigation as to the validity of the claims that have been filed. The claims have been all filed, and he is acting in the position of a judge to hear the claims, take evidence, and make a report as to what claims are valid and what claims are not.


George Gibson Coote: Is there any good reason why this should not be done by a judge of the Exchequer Court? Would he not be the proper person?


Arthur Bliss Copp: Just now they are rather short of judges in the Exchequer Court.


Henry Lumley Drayton: You might make an appointment. *


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: The Montreal Star says the government is going to appoint an hon. member to the Exchequer Court judgeship.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I am sure any hon. member will agree that the gentleman who has been selected to carry on that work is very well qualified for the position and is a man of splendid legal attainments. He occupied a seat in this parliament for many years, and I have always regarded him as one of the greatest legal minds in the Dominion. I think the hon. member for York-Simbury (Mr. Hanson) and the hon. member for St. John (Mr. Baxter) will agree with me.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Do not slobber over him too much.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: I entirely concur in the remarks of the Secretary of State with reference to Mr. Pugsley's ability. I would ask at the same time why this mad rush to appoint this gentleman with the ability? As far as I can find out from anything he tells us tonight it will be at least years, and it may be decades before* a single dollar will be available for Canada. I do know that the governorship of Ne,w Brunswick became vacant some time ago.


An hon. MEMBER:: He is out of a job now.


John Babington Macaulay Baxter: That is a very good reason.


George Gibson Coote: Is there any reason why the vacancy in the Exchequer Court should not be filled, and a judge of that court perform this work?


Arthur Bliss Copp: I have nothing whatever to do -more than assuming my share of responsibility-with the appointment of a judge to the Exchequer Court. I am sure if a judge were appointed he might do the work, but this is not an exchequer court matter at all. It is a matter outside of our courts, a matter of inquiry, being held very frequently outside of this country, to get information upon which this government can reasonably act in reference to a public question such as this.


George Gibson Coote: Are all the hearings held in Ottawa?


Mr. MARTELL:: Does the hon. member know the legal ability and the great qualifications of the gentleman whom the government have appointed to this position? Evidently the hon. member does not know. I venture to say that if he went to Cape Breton, and from there to Vancouver and British Columbia, traversing the whole of the Do-

Supply-State-War Claims
minion, he would not be able to find a man of greater legal acumen and ability or better qualified to deal with these questions than the Hon. William Pugsley.


Mr. STEVENS:: I would suggest that they should get the hon. member for Hants (Mr. Martell) to nominate a man for the Exchequer Court, and help them out of their dilemma.


Lewis Herbert Martell: In spite of all my hon. friend's sarcasm, I would suggest that the hon. member for Hants knows many lawyers in Canada quite well qualified to fill the position but the hon. member for Hants undoubtedly, as a supporter of the present administration, having complete faith in them, knows that they will on the right occasion and at the right opportunity, appoint a man with eminent qualifications.


Henry Herbert Stevens: My hon. friend has aspirations himself.


George Gibson Coote: I am sure we are much indebted to the member for Hants for enlightening the House as to the ability of the present commissioner. I really think that the present commissioner has been before the public of Canada long enough for them to judge for themselves of his ability and his particular fitness for the position. I might ask the minister again whether these investigations are all held in Ottawa or whether the commissioner has to travel about the country to hear claims.


Arthur Bliss Copp: He will hold an inquiry whei-ever it is most convenient to hear any number of claims.


Richard Burpee Hanson: How long is it anticipated that this gentleman will be employed at the rate of $9,000 a year and expenses?


Arthur Bliss Copp: I cannot tell my hon. friend.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is his engagement subject to no definite term?


Arthur Bliss Copp: His services will be dispensed with when he has completed the work he will undertake.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Well, I want to warn the minister that he will be on the job until another one is in sight.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The special pleading of the member for Hants (Mr. Martell) for our old friend Mr. Pugsley, suggests a question to my mind. Upon what basis is th:s eminent legal light to adjudicate these claims? The minister says that the work is not one for which the Exchequer Court is adapted. I gather

from that suggestion that the basis on which the claims will be examined 13 not judicial. Well, is it to be a political basis? H not, I ask again, upon precisely what basis will the claims be adjudicated? The interpolation of my hon. friend for Hants rather arouses in my mind a suspicion that perhaps there is something more than the necessity for eminent legal ability involved in the matter.


Lewis Herbert Martell: To the pure all things are pure.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I will grant that the Hon. Mr. Pugsley possesses great legal ability, but my acquaintance with him in the House also convinces me that few gentlemen in Canada have more political astuteness or adroitness than has that same gentleman. It is natural therefore that we should be very anxious to know exactly the basis upon which these claims are to be adjusted.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Who appointed him governor of New Brunswick?


Richard Burpee Hanson: If the hon. gentleman wants some inside history in regard to that question I can give it to him.


Lewis Herbert Martell: I might agree with you, too.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I have asked the minister a question; I wish he would answer me. Upon what basis are those claims to be adjudicated? The minister declares that it is not to be political. Well, then, what 13 it?


Arthur Bliss Copp: The various claims that are filed will fall into certain categories, and among other things the investigations will be directed towards ascertaining to which of these categories any particular claim belongs. Compensation may be claimed from Germany under article 232 in respect of damage suffered under any one of these categories, of which there are ten. They include:
(1)	Damage to injured persons and to surviving dependants by personal injury to or death of civilians caused by acts of war, including bombardments or other attacks on land, on sea, or from the air, and all the direct consequences thereof, and of all operations of war by the two groups of belligerents whatever arising.
(2)	Damage caused by Germany or her allies to civilian victims of acts of cruelty, violence or maltreatment (including injuries to life or health as a consequence of imprisonment, deportation, internment or evacuation, of exposure at sea or of being forced to labour, wherever arising, and to the surviving dependants of such victims.)
(3)	Damage caused by Germany or her allies in their own territory or in occupied or invaded territory to civilian victims of all acts injurious to health or capacity to work, or to honour, as well as to the surviving dependants of such victims.

Supply-State-War Claims
(4)	Damage caused by any kind of maltreatment of prisoners of war.
(8)	Damage caused to civilians by being forced by Germany or her allies to labour without just remuneration.
(9)	Damage in respect of all property wherever situated belonging to any of the allied or associated states or their nations, with the exception of naval and military works or materials, which has been carried off, seized, injured or destroyed by the acts of Germany or her allies on land, on sea or from the air, or damage directly in consequence of hostilities or of any operations of war.
(10)	Damage in the form of levies, fines and other similar exactions imposed by Germany or her allies upon the civilian population.
These are the various matters in respect of which damages can be claimed and into which investigation will be made.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Does the claimant have to establish legal right?


Arthur Bliss Copp: He has no legal right under the act; it is a mere matter of establishing his claim, and the inquiry is to ascertain whether or not any claim comes within any of the categories 1 have read.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Surely my hon. friend has not the slightest idea of the treaty. It is obvious that whatever rights are given by that solemn covenant are legal rights; the question is entirely a legal one. It is nonsense to say anything else. If therefore this is a matter of legal right why not leave it where it was before? And it is absolutely legal, because the category to which any claim belongs is a matter of legal construction. You might as well say that the rights under a deed or an agreement are not legal. They are legal, just as the rights under a treaty are. My hon. friend says that this is not a proper matter for reference to the Exchequer Court. Why should not the Exchequer . Court have jurisdiction in this matter? There are two possible reasons, and it would be only fair to the minister to let him state his own first if he has any. I would ask him again why cannot this matter be properly looked after by the Exchequer Court?


Arthur Bliss Copp: We no doubt could have a judge of the Exchequer Court act as a commissioner, but I do not think the Exchequer Court would be the proper tribunal.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My recollection is that the Exchequer Court has_ jurisdiction in any matter of this kind; it is a sort of administrative court, and the government has absolute power to refer to it any such question. I should not have thought that there was any doubt about that. But there are, as I say, just two reasons for the action that is intended here. The first is, that
there is a vacancy on the Bench and it is not convenient to the government to appoint the person properly selected for that position during the term of this parliament. That is one reason.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Who is selected?


Henry Lumley Drayton: I think my hon. friend knows very well; if he does not he is not as close to the counsels of his party as I thought he was. But perhaps they are wiser than some people give them credit for being. However that may be, there is another reason. An appointment outside gives the government an excuse for paying so much per annum to a political friend. That is the second reason. There are no other reasons ejxcept those two. Now, my hon. friend says that a commissioner was appointed before-the Chief Justice of New Brunswick. That is true. But my hon. friend will find that that commissioner was to get no 19,000 a year; in fact he was to get nothing at all. Tinder our act he could get nothing except his mere expenses.


Mr. CAHILL:: Did he do any work?


Henry Lumley Drayton: He did not do
any work. He came up to Ottawa and after the change of administration he gave up the appointment. But for the change of administration the work would have been gone on with just as soon as there was any real necessity for it to be undertaken. Now, the hon. minister knows perfectly well that there are any number of judges quite capable of doing this work -whose services could have been availed of by the administration, but of course in such event there would be no payment of $9,000 a year. Will my hon. friend give me any reasons for this appointment except the two I have advanced?


Arthur Bliss Copp: I can only repeat, Mr'. Chairman, what I have already said. We found it necessary to have a commissioner to investigate this, matter, and as Sir Douglas Hazen, who was appointed a commissioner for this purpose just prior to the going out of office of my hon. friends, afterwards expressed a desire to be relieved of the appointment, we asked Mr. Pugsley to undertake the work. I am sure he will conduct the investigation satisfactorily to the government as well as to parliament.


Arthur Meighen: The hon. gentleman's
answer reminds me of the deaf man who, when called upon to pay a longstanding debt, answered, that it was a very fine day. The question is, why appoint someone who is to be paid a salary when there are any number of members of the Bench whose regular duties
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are just of this character, determining claims, who could have been appointed. The hon! membei knows quite well that Sir Douglas Hazen upon the accession of this government offered, if it was the will of the government, to place the position at their disposal. Well, of course they eagerly grasped it, and the Honourable William Pugsley now has a large salary at the expense of the state. It is a position demanding legal ability; our judges have legal ability. I do not deny at all that the Hon. William Pugsley has legal ability, but if it is only legal ability that is necessary, it is no news to my hon. friend to be assured that 99 per cent of the talents of the Hon. William Pugsley would be wasted. What I should like to ask is this: after the long list of appointments, east, west, north, south and central, that have gone, with really rather wearisome monotony, to party friends of the government of the deepest dye, ending with the appointment of Mr. Congdon to investigate why the Grand Trunk directors voted gratuities, are many more such appointments still to be made? Is the waiting list long yet? Let us know about when we may expect to get to the end of it.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I am sorry I cannot give my
hon. friend any information.


George Gibson Coote: Have any claims been filed
with the minister's department in regard to what is generally referred to as the Hoppe and Isenberg coal lease?


Arthur Bliss Copp: Nothing has been filed with us.


Arthur Meighen: I hope the suggestion
of the hon. member (Mr. Coote) does not lead the government to appoint another commissioner.


George Gibson Coote: Was this position filled
through- the Civil Service Commission?


Arthur Bliss Copp: I am afraid not.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Why was not this matter
referred to Mr. Justice Audette, the Assistant Judge of the Exchequer Court, and a gentleman very well qualified to deal with claims of this character? He has done a great deal of this class of work or work analogous to it, for the government. Was his name considered in connection with the appointment?


Arthur Bliss Copp: There is only one member of the Exchequer Court Bench at the present time. Various names were considered, and it was thought that Mr. Pugsley's name would be the most acceptable to the country generally on account of his ability and experience in that line of work.

: HANSON:	Then it simply amounts
to this-Mr. Pugsley needed the job. Is that the idea?


Arthur Bliss Copp: I did not say so.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is what you mean.


Ernest Lapointe: Oh.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The hon. Minister of
Marine groans.


Ernest Lapointe: No, I was exclaiming at Mr. Hanson's remark.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The answer to the Secretary of State reveals a rather misty state of mind. He advises the House that one judge is carrying on the business of the Exchequer Court satisfactorily, and that there is no need to appoint another judge.


Arthur Bliss Copp: My hon. friend misunderstood me. I did not say anything like that.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Not in A, B, C, language, but that is the inference which we must take from his observation. But the government finds it necessary to appoint a special commissioner in a judicial capacity to pass upon legal claims, and he says he does not know whether it will be a decade, two decades or three ' decades before this appointment will terminate: he has not the remotest idea. I would suggest to the minister, if he and his colleagues cannot find a suitable appointee for the Exchequer Court vacancy, that the Hon. Mr. Pugsley should be appointed to that court as a judge to carry on this work at the salary of an Exchequer Court judge. He would then have all the machinery of the Exchequer Court at his disposal. My hon. friend and the government are setting up a separate court to do undoubtedly the very thing which the Exchequer Court is supposed to do, and at the same time refraining for a month to appoint a judge to the vacancy in the Exchequer Court. Either the country does not require another judge in the Exchequer Court -in which case why appoint an additional judge?-or else the work of that court does require that another appointment should be made.
I am going to move, Mr. Chairman:
That item No. 382, $75,000 for the Department of the Secretary of State, be reduced by the sum of $9,000.


George Newcombe Gordon: The amendment should be put in writing.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I will put it in writing, Mr. Chairman, in a moment.

Supply-State-War Claims


Arthur Bliss Copp: I hardly think my hon. friend can be serious in the amendment that he proposes. We have not increased the expenditure this year; we are not providing for any special outlay. The matter was given very careful consideration, as it was, I am sure prior to the defeat of the government of my hon. friend, when a commissioner was appointed by them to carry out this work. Whether it was because of the change of government I do not know, but Sir Douglas Hazen expressed his desire to be relieved from any duties in that connection. We had hoped that we could get along without appointing another commissioner, but those who had filed claims were pressing very strongly for consideration of those claims by some tribunal, and it was therefore thought advisable that a commissioner should be appointed for the purpose. As to referring the matter to a judge of the Exchequer Court, we have only one judge there at present and we thought it would not be well to ask him to take on this extra work. But aside from that, I doubt whether it would be a proper course to pursue to ask any judge to withdraw his time from his judicial duties in order to attend to an inquiry of this kind. We had a number of names before us for the position. The government of my hon. friend had appointed the Chief Justice of our province, >t man of high standing, and we thought it only right and proper that we should select in his stead a man of ability, of wide legal attainment and experience, a man who for a number of years had occupied the position of Minister of Public Works in the federal government. I am charged with appointing Dr. Pugsley on political grounds, but that same gentleman was so highly thought of, so highly respected by my hon. friends, that he was selected by them to fill the high and honourable position of Lieutenant Governor of the province of New Brunswick.


Arthur Meighen: The minister should do full justice to the subject while he is at it. The late government appointed very many strong Liberals to high positions throughout the entire Dominion. The late government was in no way narrow in that regard.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Nor, were we in any way narrow in appointing the very man whom my hon. friends had appointed as Lieutenant Governor of that province.


Arthur Meighen: We did not make jobs for them, though.


Arthur Bliss Copp: We followed the example of our hon. friends; we selected a man who is admirably qualified to fill the position. My
hon. friend's amendment would only embarrass the department in carrying out its work. If we were asking for a very large increase I could understand my hon. friend taking that position, but under the circumstances I am sure the committee will agree that the amendment should not be accepted.


Mr. GOULD:: It is very interesting for the newer members of the House to watch the little battles that take place between the old time parties. It recalls to my mind a certain incident that occurred in the year 1920. A party of twenty-two members of this House went down to St. John, where they were given a dinner, and at the end of the table sat the Hon. Mr. Pugsley, whose name has been mentioned here to-night, and the then Minister of the Interior. As one listened to the complimentary speeches made on that occasion one could not anticipate any such criticism of Mr. Pugsley as we have heard here to-night. On that occasion each handed the other what might be termed bouquets-


Arthur Meighen: Will the hon. gentleman be good enough to substantiate what he says by something in the nature of quotation? I assure him that anything I said I would stand by to-day and am ready to repeat before this House.


Mr. GAUVREAU:: The right hon. gentleman sometimes forgets pretty quickly.


Oliver Robert Gould: Everything was harmonious; if any criticism at all was offered it was directed to one poor timid little Progressive who had only shortly before that reached the House. I know the Minister of the Interior at that time suggested that a new political force-my right hon. friend wants quotation -had arisen in the land, and he predicted that it would be of short duration. The timid little Progressive, responding for Saskatchewan suggested that while everything seemed to run harmoniously between the hon. gentlemen who sat at the head table, representing the two ''old political parties," as they both termed them-"historic political parties"-the day might not be far distant when the new force in the land would relegate the "historic parties" to the prehistoric stage. I say again that as my mind harks back to that occasion- and a very pleasant one it was, I must say -it could not possibly have been anticipated that certain of the gentlemen sitting at that table would subsequently offer any sort oi criticism. The gentleman in question stand-as high in the esteem of the people at the present time as he did then. No crime can be charged against him simply because he
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happens to be a Liberal, nor could there be if he happened to be a Conservative, and I cannot see why criticism should be levelled against him as it has been. That is the typo of politician I am; I will fight as hard and as honestly for an individual who has politically opposed me at all times as I will for anyone else, provided that he is honest and sincere and capable of filling the position to which he is assigned. That, I think, is a fair expression of the politics that we in this comer of the chamber believe in.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Nobody questions the ability of the Hon. William Pugsley to fill this or any other judicial position, but what hon. gentlemen on this side question is the necessity of the appointment. And we are naturally suspicious when the appointment synchronizes with the completion of his tenure of office as Lieutenant Governor of New Brunswick. It does look to us like a job-


Frank S. Cahill: He could not hold both, could he?


Richard Burpee Hanson: No, he could not hold both. He has been known to hold more than one job, but he could not do so in this case- and it is not his fault that he could not. I do submit that the point raised by the hon. member for Centre Vancouver (Mr. Stevens) is well taken and that this commission ership should have been given to one of the judges. Had that been done, there would have been no cost to the country except his necessary expenses.
Amendment (Mr. Stevens) negatived; Yeas, 34; Nays, 48.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
MINES DEPARTMENT Geological survey-for explorations, surveys
and investigations, wages of explorers, topographers and others	 $202,000
For publication of English and French editions of reports, maps,	illustrations,	etc..	60,000For maintenance of offices and museum, instruments, chemicals, books of reference, miscellaneous assistance,	and	contingencies.	50,000For museum equipment	
15,000For purchase of specimens	
5,000
332,000
Arthur Meighen: I observe that the minister's efforts for economy have resulted in another increase. Perhaps he will explain that in the usual way.


Charles A. Stewart: There is a decrease.


Arthur Meighen: There is an increase of




Henry Herbert Stevens: Is that the usual explanation?


Arthur Meighen: The usual erior too.
Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil/: If my hon. friend refers to the increase of $10,000 for publication of English and French editions of reports, that is the result of a reduction last year. My hon. friend will see (hat this is the same vote as in 1921-1922. My hon. friend the ex-Minister of Finance asked for a statement last year of what we had unexpended and we gave him the expenditure for ten months. Unfortunately it does not cover the amount of the publications, and we are asking for the amount this year that we formerly had. That has happened in two cases. There was a reduction of $8,000 on another item of the same character.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Would the minister give us some information as to the exploration work that is being carri|ed on? I notice that one of these parties was down in my constituency last summer. I should like to know how much work is being done in eastern Canada, for instance, this year, how many parties are out and where they are located.


Charles A. Stewart: We plan two exploration parties in New Brunswick, one under Mr. C. H. Freeman and the other under Mr. D. B. Dowling. One is doing topographical surveying work and the other geological mapping and investigation of the Minto coal basin.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Do they come under this vote?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Can the minister give us any information regarding the work being done in the coast province?


Charles A. Stewart: Mr. Hanson is to be in northwestern British Columbia, Mr. W. L. Uglow, in Cumberland, Mr. W H. Miller at Aldermere, Mr. W. A. Johnston at Barkerville, Mr. C. E. Caimes at Similkameen, Mr. Dolmage at Copper mountain, Mr. G. A. Young, who is making an inventory of iron ore resources, Mr. M. E. Bancroft, and Mr. J. E. Walker at Windermere.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The minister mentioned one party at Copper mountain. What is that party doing?


Charles A. Stewart: They are
mapping and making a detailed study of the copper ore deposits of Copper mountain.

Supply-Min es


Henry Herbert Stevens: That mountain was diamond drilled by the company that is located there. Are they taking advantage of that work?


Charles A. Stewart: I believe so.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Another question in regard to oil well inspection. There are several oil wells being drilled in southern British Columbia, and the question arose some short time ago as to whether the companies drilling these wells were dealing with the matter in a fair manner as regards the shareholders and the public. That is, a driller might give out information that there was water in a well and that it was a non-successful operation, and the stock would be sacrificed and gathered in. I understand that the department have inspectors and experts who look into this work and advise companies of the actual condition of these wells, or at least they check up the operatives so that they cannot give out false returns for manipulation purposes. Can the minister give us any information on that subject?


Charles A. Stewart: That would more properly come up under the Interior department estimates. However, I can give the information. We had up till recently an engineer in charge, a Mr. Slipper, who is located in Alberta but is available for inspection work in any province where oil boring is going on. It is a most difficult thing even for the expert to ascertain the facts if the driller is not prepared to give him information. We try to keep logs of all the wells in order that we may have a history of formations in the various districts where drilling operations are going on, but they are not always reliable, I am free to say. However, we have that engineer, and he is employed in the Interior department, not in the Mines department.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Would the minister also mention whether a survey of the iron ore deposits is being made in conjunction with the provincial authorities? If so under what agreement and what portion of the cost, etc, is being borne by this government, and to what extent has the survey been carried out?
Mr. STEWART (ArgenteuiP: My deputy tells me that the arrangement is that the geological work is done by the Department of Mines of the federal government, and the drilling and testing by the provincial government.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Does this vote cover, or apply, in every way to the ore testing plant that is under consideration?
Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil) - It is a separate vote.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Is it provided for in this year's estimates?


Charles A. Stewart: The new ore testing plant spoken of in British Columbia?


Henry Herbert Stevens: Yes.


Charles A. Stewart: We have no vote.


Henry Herbert Stevens: It has been dropped? There was one carried for a number of years.


Charles A. Stewart: I am going to ask for a small sum in the Supplementary Estimates to pay for the shipment of ore to our testing plant here during this year so that the British Columbia miners may be in fhe same position as those who live very much closer to the Ottawa plant. There have been some negotiations-perhaps I should not say negotiations but there have been representations-for the acquiring of a plant at Nelson but we have not gone very far in that connection. I am of the opinion that a small sum of money-that is small in comparison with the interest charges on capitalization account for the construction of au ore-testing plant in British Columbia-would bring ore here and enable it to be tested. That would give a service although not as rapid as if the work were done out there and at much less cost than would be required were we to undertake a new plant in British Columbia at the moment.


Mr. HUMPHREY:: Is it possible to get the true commercial value of the ores by bringing them here and treating them at the Ottawa plant?


Charles A. Stewart: Identically the same service will be given here that we propose to give in British Columbia. I may say for the information of the committee that this is only a temporary arrangement. I am not intimating that this is the end of the plan for an ore-testing plant in British Columbia. This is only intended to be a temporary service in the meantime I am going to ask for $10,000, I think that is the amount, to cover the freight charges.


Levi William Humphrey: Will that amount cover the freight and express charges from British Columbia to Ottawa on the complex ores that are required to be assayed or tested?


Charles A. Stewart: It would be pretty hard to answer that question; we have no knowledge of how much ore will be offered. But I think it will. I think that we
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will be able to pay the freight for that amount of money and possibly give tests to ores furnished by all the people in British Columbia who. are interested.


Levi William Humphrey: Is the minister aware that there are unlimited quantities of ore in British Columbia awaiting the installation of some ore-testing plant? Does he think that $5,000 or $10,000 would provide that convenience and develop those ore resources?
Mr. STEWART (ArgenteuiU: Of course, my hon. friend knows a great deal more about the subject than I do but the testing of a 200-pound lot will give a fair indication of almost any sample that is forwarded, and $10,000 will bring a great number of lots forward. I am merely suggesting it in order to give some service to the people of British Columbia who have been waiting for some considerable time to have this testing plant established in their province.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I think, perhaps, the minister has not clearly appreciated the point at issue which was referred to by my hon. friend for Kootenay and myself. As a matter of fact there are in British Columbia- and I presume in other sections of the country as well-very large deposits of refractory ores, for instance silver lead and silver zinc ores, with mixtures of other metals that up to the present no commercial plant has been able to profitably separate, although they have been experimenting for years. I was at one, the Trail smelter, one of the finest institutions of the kind in Canada, where they have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to solve this problem. If it were solved it would mean a tremendous saving to the country and an impetus to the mining business generally, not only in British Columbia but wherever such ores are found Now, the expenditure contemplated in the location of an ore testing plant-at least the amount set a few years ago-was in the neighbourhood of $100,000. It was recognized then that the establishment of such a plant would cost probably from $100,000 to S200,-000. There was a difficulty in the minds of the officials of the department as to the best place to locate that plant, whether in the interior or on the coast. Personally I have never expressed any opinion-I do not think I am competent to do so-as to where it should be located. The officials of the department should determine that in the interest of the investigatory work; it is very important. I want to say to the minister that I appreciate this contemplated vote of $10,000 to test these small samples of ores, but that 
will not do very much good m solving the problem I mention. It must be treated on a commercial basis, and it will perhaps take some years to find a process that will successfully treat these ores. I am certain that the return would amply repay the department for the investigation. I am very sorry if the former vote has been dropped from the estimates, because what the minister now suggests to replace it will not meet the case at all.


Charles A. Stewart: I have given the matter some consideration and I do not think $50,000 would construct the plant that would be required in British Columbia.


Arthur Meighen: What amount?


Charles A. Stewart: I should say $100,000, I do not know whether double the amount, which would involve an annual expenditure of some $50,000. would do. In the meantime I thought it wise to offer facilities to the British Columbia miner who is desirous of having tests made of the product of his particular mine or claim. If he agrees to forward samples here from his nearest railway station we will give him all the tests that he would probably get at the inception of a plant in his own province. Of course I quite follow my hon. friend's suggestion that this plant would require developments as various ores came to it for the purpose of determining a proper course of treating, but we do identically the same testing work here. I am quite of the opinion that a plant of this character will have to be established in British Columbia but I may say, generally speaking, that unless there is an absolute dire necessity for the building of this plant ou,t there and the purchase of the necessary machinery I think it well to delay matters, at least for a year, in the hope that both machinery and building costs will be reduced. However, I have no desire to penalize the very important industry in British Columbia, and in the meantime this required service will be given for the benefit of the province.


Levi William Humphrey: In view of the fact that a vote wns passed some time ago and has been allowed to lapse, representing a district that depends entirely upon its mineral resources. I give it as my opinion, and the opinion of those better able to speak with authority than I am, that such action is penalizing the people of British Columbia and especially the mining industry. At the present time that industry in British Columbia is on the eve of improvement. There never was a time in the last eight years when the

Supply-Mines
outlook was as good as it now is. We have this smelter situated at Trail, the property of the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company, a very large institution doing a great deal of work for the province. Nevertheless, there are many kinds of complex ores throughout the province, and in the districts where they have these ores they require a testing plant. The minister has mentioned this small plant located at Nelson. As I am particularly conversant with this plant, and as I know how it happened that it is situated there I can tell the minister that, with a small expenditure, it would be in a position to handle the process of testing these different complex ores in the initial stages. This plant can be made available with a very smjill expenditure. By holding up this vote which was put through in the last few years, I think the government is holding back the mining industry and the assistance that it should have in developing what is considered our greatest asset.


Mr. McBRIDE:: I am fully in sympathy with this move to get a plant out in British Columbia to test ore, but I think the government should investigate the situation in order to ascertain the most feasible place to locate the plant. Personally, I think Kamloops is about the most central location, and I would ask the government to go fully into the question, in order to ascertain the most feasible place to put the plant so as to give accommodation to everybody. We have both the Canadian National and the Canadian Pacific railways at Kamloops. It is well supplied with railways.


Charles A. Stewart: In reply to both hon. members, I may say that I am entirely in sympathy with the idea of establishing a plant. I believe the mining industry warrants the placing of a plant in British Columbia. There is the practical difficulty raised by the hon. member for Cariboo (Mr. McBride). We have made some investigation of the plant the hon. member for Kootenay (Mr. Humphrey) speaks of. We have not approached the owners for the purpose of finding out what it could be purchased for. It occurred to me that probably that plant was not favourably located to serve the needs of British Columbia, and that would need some investigation as well. It would serve the needs of southern British Columbia entirely, but as mining is carried on, and probably will be carried on, throughout the whole British Columbia region when the plant is built, I think it should be placed as near a central point as possible, in order
that freight costs may be reduced to a minimum. What we will do this year I think will give the service to every man very reasonably. If a man brings his samples to the station, puts them on the train
10 p.m. and sends them forward we will agree to give them a test and return him the results of the test. I do not want it to be inferred that, because we have not put an amount in the estimates for the construction of the plant this year, the idea has been dropped, because it has not.


Levi William Humphrey: Is it the intention of the department to carry on further investigations in regard to establishing this plant in British Columbia this year, or is this the final move, providing an appropriation for bringing the ore to Ottawa?


Charles A. Stewart: No. 1
thought I made it clear to my hon. friend that this was only a temporary measure to cover the year. We will certainly try to place the plant where it will be most convenient. The question of whether it is wise to establish a plant has been settled so far as I can ascertain from the officials of the department. There are no two opinions about that, but there is some question as to whether it should go right down to the coast where the railways all concentrate, or whether it should be put in a central portion of the province, as suggested by my hon. friend for Kamloops, or some place where cross-country railways would serve the interests of all parties concerned.


Levi William Humphrey: The department could very well decide the location of the plant, if they would admit the principle of establishing one in British Columbia. This question has been considered and certainly negotiations have been carried on for a number of years back. The mining people of British Columbia feel that they are being penalized by the government not being able to reach a decision. Representations are being made to the department in respect to particular points, and the desire is to co-operate, and to render any assistance that may be possible to the department to assist them to come to a decision. It is not for the particular benefit of one point or one locality so much as to render some assistance and co-operation to enable the government to come to a decision. Representing a district that is entirely a mining district, I could not do otherwise than bring out the qualifications of that particular district, especially in regard to the plant now located at Nelson. That plant
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could be acquired practically without any outlay of money. A very small sum would purchase it, and it is equipped with something like 840,000 or $50,000 worth of machinery which is lying idle. I simply offer these suggestions with a view to assisting the government. This particular point is located in the interior, where there is practically the greatest amount of complex ore, and it is easily accessible from any other point in the province.


Mr. McQUARRIE:: Is it the intention of the government to give any assistance to the Coast Range Steel Company? I believe that company has asked for a guarantee of bonds, or something of that' kind.


Charles A. Stewart: Representations have been made to the government but, so far as I know, no commitments of any kind have been made.


Arthur Meighen: No results.


John Millar: What success has the
department had in drilling for oil in southern Alberta? When I was there last fall, at what is known as the Maclean well, they had reached a depth of about 1,900 feet. They were expecting oil in a very short time. South of that is what is known as the Sunburst well in Montana and from the wells nearby I saw oil floating in great quantities. I understand that the oil prospectors believe that the intervening country, to the extent of some seven miles, is rich in oil, and it seemed to me a wise thing for the department to spend money in drilling for oil where they were. With what success have they met in connection with the Maclean well on the international boundary?


Charles A. Stewart: I understood my hon. friend to say that the department was drilling. The department does not do any drilling, but I can give my hon. friend some information about the Coutts Sweet Grass Company. They have reached a depth now of 2,800 feet, and we know that in all cases of drilling for oil you may be 50 feet off the basin in which the oil is located and miss it. They, like other drillers, are very confident that they will get oil, but whether they will or not I cannot say. They make the statement that at 2,200 feet they struck a small vein but did not think it of sufficient volume to warrant the stopping of drilling operations, and so they went to a greater depth.


John Millar: I understand that they are going further.


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Mr. PUTNAM:: Whereabouts did the hon. member see oil flowing?


George Gibson Coote: How much, approximately, of the vote of $202,000 is spent in each province?


Charles A. Stewart: For geological survey, the item under discussion, we estimate for exploration in British Columbia and Yukon, which are combined in the item, $38,300; in the Northwest territories, $5,000; in Alberta, $17,000; in Manitoba, $4,500; in Saskatchewan, $4,500; in Ontario, $24,200; in Quebec, $11,000; in New Brunswick, $3,000; in Nova Scotia, $6,500; and "in general," $2,300. In connection with the topographical surveys we will spend in British Columbia, $12,000; in Manitoba, $4,500; in Ontario, $8,500; in Quebec $8,600; in New Brunswick. $6,000, and in Nova Scotia $8,000. A question was raised last year by the ex-Minister of Finance (Sir Henry Drayton), and I think by the member for Wellington (Mr. Guthrie), in regard to an apparent over-lapping, and the matter was looked into. At first I had an idea that it would perhaps be well to combine all topographical surveys under the Surveys branch, but I find that some years ago the Geological branch were desirous of controlling the work for the purpose of mapping areas upon which geological work was to be carried on; and they did that work under their direction. I find also that in the Department of National Defence some work was being carried on. Under the chairmanship of Doctor Deville we have taken care to see that there is no overlapping in the work, and hence you will find a variation in the expenditures in the Geological branch and the Topographical branch in the various provinces. I can assure the committee-and this is the point I wish to make-that there is absolutely no overlapping; the operations carried on by the various organizations, are co-ordinated and made use of. For example, if in any section the geological parties have already done the topographical work, then there is no party from the Topographical branch doing work there.


Arthur Meighen: I do not think that the minister had any task in stopping overlapping. I had a survey committee at work for some time while I was in the department some years ago, and under the chairmanship of Doctor Deville I provided successfully against overlapping. What I called attention to a year ago was something in regard to which apparently I was not able to influence the government-that is, the survey

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work being done in the Militia department. If any human being can tell me of what value that is to this country, then the information would be in addition to my knowledge.


Charles A. Stewart: They have joined us on the board; we do not know what they are doing.


Arthur Meighen: Did my hon. friend say that they are joined under the minister?


Charles A. Stewart: No; they work with us; we know what they are doing.


Arthur Meighen: I know what they are doing too, and it is because I know what they are doing that I think the work is worthless; and it is very expensive.


Charles A. Stewart: The topographical work?


Arthur Meighen: Yes. They are doing such thorough topographical survey work that in the area they have covered you can tell where every schoolhouse is, where every church is, where every house is, almost where every telegraph pole is, if not the height of it. It is really a sort of literal photograph of the entire country; and they have done now so much after about twenty-five years of work that if -they can keep on through next millennium and half of the following one, they will have done. Such is the nature of their work; and by the time they are about one-hundredth part through, the beginning of the work will be of no use, because all these things change. I do hope that the minister will exert his influence to see that worthless survey work is done away with. I do not find fault with the officers; I think they are doing their work well. But of what value the work is to -the country for the amount of money expended I never was able to understand. I sincerely trust that now that the attention of the government is called .to the matter this work will be done away with. I did not know about it until close to the termination of my office. May I suggest another thing to the minister for the exercise of his dormant talents, if he has any left after the Interior department is taken care of. He should try to avoid unnecessary expenditure and save some money for serving the country. There is a necessity in connection with that ore-dressing plant in British Columbia. I remember being entirely convinced of an urgent necessity there. I cannot say that I can bring the reasons to bear just now why it is not possible, effectively and with practical results, to bring ore here. What the
minister has in mind may possibly alleviate the situation for a while, but he will find that in the end jt will likely have been better for him to have saved the money and got sooner to work constructing a proper ore-dressing plant. So convinced was I of this that in the last year I was in office an estimate was put in for the purpose of starting work in this direction. But of course the contest came on that year and we could not go on. Let the minister exert his energy to prevent the appointment of grotesque commissions, and the prolific creation of fancy sinecures for party friends, and then there will be some money left for work of this kind that goes to develop wealth in the country. The minister has an ore-dressing plant in one part of the city of Ottawa; I forget the street. The plant is a good one and it is not expensive and it is to that plant that this ore will come. Some two or three years ago we were testing there new methods of ore flotation. It is well known that the mineral flotation people have a patent method of flotation by oil which they control and out of which they exact very large profits, making the company immensely wealthy. A new flotation system was being tried and, before I left, had met with very encouraging success. I should like to know whether that success has been continued, and what the opinion of the department is as to its value.


Charles A. Stewart: One of the difficulties in connection with research work of this character is to convince parliament and the people that the money is well expended. We have made a very heavy expenditure at Bienfait on experimental work with fuel which has not yet resulted successfully The experiments mentioned by my hon. friend are still going on, and I watched them with a good deal of interest last year in the plant there. We are asking for some money to buy improved machinery. I had the deputy minister visit England, Germany, and Belgium as well as keep very closely in touch with the Bureau of Mines of the American government in order that we may know what other people are accomplishing in research work respecting new methods of treating ores as well as fuels and so get value for the money we expend and perhaps discover better methods of handling these problems. No very great success however, has yet attended the experimental work that my hon. friend has referred to.


Arthur Meighen: The liquid flotation?


Charles A. Stewart: Nothing
that we can say is a definite success.
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Arthur Meighen: Has it been tried upon the refractory lead ores of British Columbia?


Charles A. Stewart: I cannot give that information at the moment. I saw them experimenting there, but not on lead.


Arthur Meighen: On gold?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: It was considered rather successful on gold in my time. Has that opinion been reversed?


Charles A. Stewart: I am told on copper and gold they have got definite success.


George Gibson Coote: Has this department any revenue from some of the provinces?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


George Gibson Coote: Does not the government control the mineral rights in the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


George Gibson Coote: Have you not revenue from mining and oil leases?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, but
that is in the Interior department; this is the Mines department, which is entirely separate.


George Gibson Coote: You have no revenue from British Columbia or the other provinces in this connection?


Charles A. Stewart: Not in this department.


George Gibson Coote: We could get particulars of the revenue when the estimates of the Interior are brought down?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: Revenue from what?


George Gibson Coote: Revenue from leases of mineral and oil rights. It seems to me it is a question that should be looked into as to just how much money we should spend on provinces that have their own mineral resources when there are other provinces that have been deprived of such resources, and I do not know whether any money has been spent to help the latter develop these resources.


Arthur Meighen: I can tell my hon. friend that money has been spent, and the fact that those provinces were deprived of their resources has been a consideration in spending more money there. There is a very, very large expenditure in geological survey work in Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Alberta, par-

ticularly in the northern parts of those provinces where our chief finds were. Of course, in British Columbia there has been the greatest expenditure because British Columbia is really by nature where the best results could be expected.


George Gibson Coote: It may be true that British Columbia has the greatest mineral resources, and those resources will enure to the benefit of British Columbia alone in that sense. So that the prairie provinces are not being justly dealt with in this regard. I would point out the injustice that Alberta is suffering from at the present time. We have on our statute books an act governing the payment of bounty on crude oil according to its specific gravity, and the standard is set in such a peculiar way that I think none of the wells in Alberta have been able to secure any bounty, although the Dominion owns those resources and has received large amounts in rentals from oil leases; but the government is paying considerable sums every year for crude oil produced in Ontario, and there the provincial authorities own the mineral rights. I think it is time the government amended the act so that crude oil produced in Alberta may be given the same bounty as the Ontario crude oil. For the last eleven years the Alberta oil men have been trying to get successive governments to change the act, but so far without success. Before this session closes I hope the government will see that this injustice to Alberta is removed. It is certainly aggravating when one considers that the Dominion owns the oil resources in Alberta and yet refuses to give a bounty to the crude oil that is being produced there, although the oil producers in Ontario are given this advantage notwithstanding the fact that the oil rights there, as I said before, are owned by the provincial government.


Mr. ROBB:: As the payment of these
bounties is under my department. I may sa}r that the act in question was passed long before oil was discovered in Alberta, and that its provisions do not discriminate in any way against Alberta or any of the other western provinces. The same specific gravity applies to Alberta as to Ontario oil, but apparently only the latter oil comes within the act. However, the observations made by my hon. friend have the consideration of the government, and it is quite possible that we may amend the act, if not this session then next session.


George Gibson Coote: I am quite pleased to hear that this matter has the consideration of the government but I believe it has had the

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consideration of successive governments for quite a number of years. The trouble is that the government of the day never does anything but consider this matter. I want to serve warning on this government right here and now that if more than one session elapses after this session, and the act is not amended, there is going to be war right in this House on this particular matter.


James Alexander Robb: Who is going to make it?


George Gibson Coote: If nobody else will I will
make it myself.


Arthur Meighen: I suppose I am included in the indictment. The matter was brought to my attention and not only received consideration but decision. I will give the ground of the decision to my hon. friend. I do not know whether it got very long attention at the hands of the present Minister of Trade and Commerce; I am inclined to think this is about the first he has heard of it. The act was passed in order to make oil production in Ontario a business possibility. The Ontario lands were granted in fee simple, the oil exploiter there had to buy his land or his right and parliament considered that unless this bounty were granted the capital investment necessary was such, and the production possibilities so low, that there would not be any oil production. It has been continued for that reason. Very careful examination has disclosed that it has been necessary-whether it is just now I could not say, but I fancy so-or there would not be oil production. So much for the Ontario situation. In the West we own the lands and we make leases. The exploiter pays a certain rental per acre the first year and a smaller rental thereafter, and such moneys as he puts into actual development are credited against the rental for two years- I am disposed to think I extended that to three. All these things do not apply in Ontario. In western Canada the capital expenditures that the oil exploiter puts in are credited against this rental; when he gets oil he then proceeds to pay rental based on his oil production. What would be the common sense of charging the oil well owner a rental on his oil production and then paying him a bounty on that same production? If the rent is too high, make it less, but I cannot see any object in taking a rental from him and putting it into the treasury and then taking it out again- and paying it back to him in the form of bonus. The point is that the system of production in the two places is wholly different. The system in the West credits the oil man with part of his capital investment;
1G0
when he gets oil we then charge him rental, because there we are the owners of the property not the private individual. In Ontario the private individual is the owner. The man who goes in to produce oil, makes his capital investment and then he may have to pay rental-royalty, we call it-to the owner of the property. He does not pay anything here; if he did it would be senseless for us in Ontario to pay him back something by way of bonus.


Mr COOTE:: It seems to me this is the same old story; the state will bonus private individuals, but when it comes to bonusing its own industry it refuses to do so.


Arthur Meighen: It is not our own.


George Gibson Coote: In Ontario it is not a much more difficult task to drill an oil well than it is to drill a water well, but in going after oil in Alberta they drill on an average from 3,000 to 5,000 feet, and that is an expensive operation. It is very hard to get oil prospectors to risk enough money to put down an oil well, some of which cost in the neighbourhood of $100,000. So far as this bounty is concerned, if the government will cease paying it to Ontario I will be quite satisfied. 1 want these oil men put on an equal basis; 1 think we have good ground for demanding that. I do not want to discuss the question further at present, because I am not armed with the statistics I would like to have.


Arthur Meighen: Would my hon. friend be really willing to have that done?


George Gibson Coote: I am quite willing to have it done.


Arthur Meighen: Then the government would simply have to act as the private individual does in Ontario-make the oil man pay rent right from the start, give him no credit at all on his capital investment, then when he gets the product charge him a royalty on it. I assure my hon. friend it would be no hardship on the country to allow the exploiter, under those conditions, a bonus under the Bounty Act.


George Gibson Coote: I do not see why the government would be compelled to do any such thing. If they simply cease to pay the oil. bounty in Ontario that need not entail the dire results that the right hon. gentleman suggests..


Arthur Meighen: That is exactly equal treatment.


Levi William Humphrey: I do not want to get away from the item that is being considered.
IiEVISED EDITION
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but I would like some more information with regard to the ore testing plants. How much ore can be treated in this plant at Ottawa. What is its capacity?


Charles A. Stewart: I can hardly tell my hon. friend what its capacity is, but we have had no difficulty so far in testing all that has been offered, and I think we can take care of a considerable increase and still give service without undue delay.


Levi William Humphrey: Any ores sent from British Columbia can be taken care of?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, unless some complex problem arose that would necessitate new machinery or entail an unusual amount of experimentation. That frequently happens.


Levi William Humphrey: There are so many different kinds of ores that a plant should be Constructed in such a way as to be able to deal with them. Is the plant in Ottawa of such a character that under ceitain conditions new machinery may be necessary, while the mining districts of British Columbia are being held back for the want of these facilities?	*
Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil) At present we are testing ores from all over Canada. There might be complex ores that we could not test properly, but in a general way we can take care of any of the ore-testing problems that may come from British Columbia.


Levi William Humphrey: What are the regulations governing the forwarding of ore from British Columbia?


Charles A. Stewart: All that is necessary is to take it to the nearest railway station and forward it here for testing.


Henry Herbert Stevens: In what quantities?


Charles A. Stewart: Two hundred pounds is quite sufficient for testing in moss cases.


Oliver Robert Gould: The Topographical branch is carrying on work throughout the prairie provinces along the international boundary, including the erection of towers which have caused some of the residents to suggest that the government was going into radio work. Does the United States government share the cost of survey operations along the international boundary?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes. This matter comes under the vote for boundary surveys, in which both governments have joined.


Oliver Robert Gould: These towers are about 100 feet high. They are permanent institutions?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


George Gibson Coote: Have there been any recent discoveries of iron ore in Alberta and if sc where?


Charles A. Stewart: No, not 0 a quality that would warrant development I suppose my hon. friend refers to the reported discovery at lake Athabasca.


George Gibson Coote: Yes, and there was some report in the press of a discovery northwest of Calgary.


Charles A. Stewart: The Butterfields were 'the parties who made the discovery at lake Athabasca. That was investigated by one of our officials and by Professor Allan of the University of Alberta. Their report is available if my hon. friend would care to peruse it. It is to the effect that so far as the investigation could determine, it is not possible to utilize the ore commercially.


Mr. LOGAN:: Can the minister tell me what amount of money has been spent up to date at Bienfait in Manitoba in connection with the briquetting plant?


Henry Herbert Stevens: Is that included in this vote?


Charles A. Stewart: No, it is under another vote. The expenditure by the board up to March 1, 1923, was $1,031,625.37


Henry Lumley Drayton: What has become . of the reported finds of coal in Ontario? Has the department been following that up? Have we had any results, and what are the prospects?


Charles A. Stewart: We have not been investigating that. The Ontario Department of Mines have been making that investigation, but we have their report.


Henry Lumley Drayton: To what effect?


Charles A. Stewart: The report is that the coal is of no commercial importance.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is it coal that won't burn or what is it?


Charles A. Stewart: I cannot tell my hon. friend.


Henry Lumley Drayton: There was another matter that was being looked into of which I have not heard anything for some

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time, and that was the utilization of the shale deposits of the Maritime provinces, the winning of fuel oil, I think it was, from the deposits. Is any work going on in connection with that now?


Mr. BROWN:: Is the minister thoroughly satisfied with the reports that have been made in connection with the ore deposits at lake Athabasca, that they are really as vauleless as has been indicated in Professor Allan's report?


Charles A. Stewart: I have no opinion in the matter. I have to be guided by the report.


John Livingstone Brown: I have reason to know that the Butterfields have themselves expressed great doubt. As to relying on Professor Allan's report, it is questionable if he was ever near enough to the property to make a satisfactory report.


Charles A. Stewart: I think that is most unfair. Not only was that' property investigated twice before the Butterfields ever saw it, but it has been investigated on one occasion since. There may be a very good reason for a difference of opinion, and at some future date it is possible that this may prove to be a valuable deposit, but I think it is very doubtful from the nature of the reports made. But to say that the geologist was not there is most unfair.


John Livingstone Brown: Has the government any intention of making further investigations to satisfy themselves as to the nature of these deposits?
Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil)'The only way in which they could really be pioved would be by using a drill. I had a long discussion with this gentleman about this deposit, and after he had made representations we had Professor Allan report to us, and his report coincides exactly with the report of Geologist Alcock of the Geological Survey. I scarcely think that these two men would be mistaken. They are both trained men. I might say to my hon. friend that Butterfields' statement is that deeper down the ore would improve, but the only way to test that would be,by taking in a drill at considerable expense and drilling down, and keeping a log, to discover whether or not his supposition is correct. From the reports we have received from the geologist that would appear to be a very doubtful expenditure.


John Livingstone Brown: Is the report as to quantity or quality?
160^


Charles A. Stewart: Quality, but as to quantity as well.


John Livingstone Brown: The samples that were shown me, if they were true samples, do not seem to indicate a deposit of very high grade.


Charles A. Stewart: I would not advise my hon. friend to put any money in it.


John Livingstone Brown: I have none to put in.


Charles A. Stewart: Replying to my hon. friend for West York who asked about the shale deposits, representations have been made to us not by' the New Brunswick government but by parties interested in the development of those shales there. We do not appear to have very authentic information, but we contemplate making some further investigations to prove the value of those shales in conjunction with the New Brunswick government.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Has the department's attention not been called to these deposits in connection with the fuel question? I thought Mr. Louis Simpson had quite an, extensive paper on these shales, and I understood that he had taken it up with the department.


Charles A. Stewart: The only
matter that was brought to my attention was the oil extraction from the shale.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The whole matter came to the front in connection with the fuel situation. It was represented that we could get fuel oil at a comparatively low cost from the shales down there, that, there was an unlimited supply, and that the oil was of high character. I thought the committee would be interested to know just what was going on in that regard, whether we were looking after that possible source of fuel supply.


Charles A. Stewart: It is more or less a question of solving the extraction problem. There is no doubt about the oil shale being there. I think that is proven; the reports would indicate so. It is a question of how to extract the oil from the shale. It is very similar to the tar sands problem in Alberta, and we have innumerable people doing experimental work on that problem. But not very much has been done in connection with our oil shales.


Henry Lumley Drayton: You have no one working on the problem of extracting oil from these shales?


Charles A. Stewart: Not at the moment, but it is on our programme.
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Henry Lumley Drayton: Has that question been referred to the Scientific Research Council?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Are they dealing with it now1?


Charles A. Stewart: They probably will.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The minister
has told us pretty well of the activities in British Columbia and in some parts of Alberta. What work is being carried on under this vote in the other provinces? Are we doing anything at all in the Maritime provinces?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, I gave a report of the work that was being done in the different provinces and gave the names of the heads of the different parties that are out.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Where was that? What is being done?


Charles A. Stewart: These are geological parties doing investigational work, also topographical parties. They come under this vote we are now discussing. Of course, we have gone very far afield in this discussion, but as I said, I have given the names of the men at the head of these parties doing investigational work in the different provinces.


Mr. TOLMIE:: Has any investigation been made in the last three years of the iron deposits on Vancouver Island?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes. We have Doctor Young working on that steadily.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Any results of interest .lately?


Charles A. Stewart: The work is' still going on. I cannot say that there have been any definite results such as my hon. friend is asking for. Borings will have to be undertaken before definite results will be obtained.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: What is the nature of the work being done now?


Charles A. Stewart: I made that statement before, however I will be very glad to give it to my hon. friend again. There is geological work, which Doctor Young is doing, and any boring required is undertaken by the British Columbia government.


Mr. GARDINER:: When the minister brings down the information that has been asked for with respect to the inspection of

oil wells, I would also like him to submit the inspection reports for the Monitor district.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
For organization and equipment of the Explosives division under the Explosives Act, chap. 31, 4-5 George V, $12,000.
Charles A. Stewart: This is a very small amount and there is a reduction, as will be noted, in the item. We asked for this vote last year for testing purposes. However, what Colonel Ogilvie has discovered has proved valueless to us, therefore we are dropping the vote and not going on with the experiment.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Do I understand the minister to say that the work for which he asked this money is going to be of no use?


Charles A. Stewart: We asked for a vote for investigational work in the Explosives division. It really had relation to a new method of testing explosives. Since then Colonel Ogilvie has discovered that new methods are being developed. Therefore we are not going on and we shall not need a vote for the purpose this year.


Henry Herbert Stevens: What is the object of the vote of $12,000 this year?


Charles A. Stewart: That is for the general work of the Explosives branch.


Henry Herbert Stevens: What work is being carried on in that branch now?


Charles A. Stewart: Control of the composition and method of manufacture of explosives disclosed by manufacturers confidentially, and examined for authorization for manufacture and storage in Canada or for importation. Importation is permitted only on the authority of the minister when regulations are complied with. There are only 17 factories in operation. P'ans of factories and magazines have to be submitted and licenses or continuing certificates are issued by the minister only after the chief inspector has decided on the purposes for which buildings may be used, the quantities of explosives which may be stored, and the safety measures necessary for the protection of the workers, the public	and
property. Factories are subject to inspection to ensure that the conditions in the license and the general regulations are being observed. The general work for the protection of life and property is carried out under Colonel Ogilvie.

Questions


Henry Lumley Drayton: I observe a
notation that the appropriation not required during 1923-24 is $250,000.


Charles A. Stewart: That vote
was for the lignite Utilization Board. The vote last year was $250,000 for further investigational work and I have already given to my hon. friend the total amount expended for that purpose. But we have ceased investigational work except in so far as regards the trial of a process for carbonization which only involves a very slight expenditure.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What was spent
under this vote last year?


Charles A. Stewart: I think, if my memory serves me right, it wa,s $178,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Fielding, the House adjourned at 10.48 p.m.
Monday, May 7, 1923