1922-04-21

OFFICIAL REPORT


Volume I:: Pages 1-1015	Volume II: Pages 1017-2053


Volume III:: Pages 2035-3039	Volume IV: Pages 3041-3619



VOLUME CLII


[Stage Direction]
-	OTTAWA

[Stage Direction]
House of
Commons debates
[Stage Direction]
Friday, April 21, 1922

[Stage Direction]
Hon. D. D. McKENZIE (Solicitor General) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 51 to amend the Canada Temperance Act.
Right Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN (Leader of the Opposition) :: Explain.


Mr. McKENZIE:: This bill is intended
largely to assist local authorities in carrying out provincial temperance legislation. They have made the claim that they require some assistance by way of Dominion legislation to carry out the principle voted upon by the provinces and given effect to by provincial legislation. The present bill is with a view to supplementing the action of the provinces in that regard.


Arthur Meighen: This is the Solicitor
General's (Mr. McKenzie's) first attempt at introducing legislation, but really I do not think he should be allowed to get away with the explanation he has made. He sates that the bill is to supplement provincial legislation, or to enable the provincial authorities to carry out their temperance aspirations and to do it by amendment to the Canada Temperance Act. Well, there has been much legislation along that line, but what is this legislation for? In what way is it to help the provinces? What is to be amended?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: It is not usual at this stage to go into detailed explanations, these are generally reserved until the motion for second reading is made. I may say, however, that British Columbia has reserved to itself the right of dealing with the sale of liquor in a certain way, and it claims that its control in dealing with that liquor in the province is particularly interfered with by the promiscuous importation of liquors. The provincial authorities therefore ask this Parliament to say that inasmuch as the general sale of liquor in the province of British Columbia is prohibited by local statute, the importation of liquor into the province shall be confined entirely to the local government or its agents. That is the main purpose of the bill.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



NATURAL RESOURCES OF PRAIRIE PROVINCES

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On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. E. J. McMURRAY (North Winnipeg) :: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are called, I would like to ask the Prime Minister a question. It was intimated in the Speech from the Throne that the question of the natural resources of the prairie provinces would receive consideration. It is well known that the Premiers of these provinces are here and in conference with the Government. I would ask the Prime Minister, therefore, what progress has been made in dealing with the question.


Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: The Premiers of the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta have been in conference with members of the Government yesterday and to-day, and progress has been made in the discussions we have had. My hon. friend from North Winnipeg (Mr. McMurray) intimated to me that he intended asking this question, and I therefore prepared and have brought with me a memorandum which will indicate the progress which has been made thus far. I may say that Premier Norris of Manitoba is obliged to return to Winnipeg to-night. The Premiers of Alberta and Saskatchewan are remaining. Our conferences so far as these two provinces are concerned will continue with them. As to Manitoba the following satement will indicate what progress has been made, up to date, between the Dominion government and the government of that province:

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As between the Government of Manitoba and the Dominion Government it has been agreed,-
(1)	That it is desirable and just that such adjustments be made between the Dominion of Canada and the Prairie provinces with respect to their natural resources as will give full recognition to the principle that in this respect they are entitled to be placed in a position of equality with the other Provinces of Confederation.
(2)	That the Government of Canada will negotiate an agreement with the Prairie provinces with the above object in view, such agreement to be subject to ratification by Parliament and the respective Legislatures.
(3)	That failing agreement on any point as between the Dominion and the Province of Manitoba all such items so in 'dispute shall be referred to arbitration.
(4)	That any awards made by such arbitrators shall be subject to ratification by Parliament and the Legislature of Manitoba.



DATE OF THE BUDGET

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On the Orders of the Day:
Hon.   S@: I observe that the Finance Minister (Mr. Fielding) is now in the Chamber. Perhaps he will be able to tell us, approximately at any rate, when we may expect the Budget.


Hon. W. S. FIELDING (Minister of Finance) :: I am afraid I cannot gratify the reasonable curiosity of my hon. friend by mentioning a particular date. I realize that the session is moving on and that we should all like to have the Budget at a not distant date. I will try to bring it forward at a time when my hon. friend will feel the delay has not been unreasonable.


Arthur Meighen: Within the next
month?


William Stevens Fielding: It is always embarrassing to tie oneself to dates.


Arthur Meighen: It was equally embarrassing when the hon. gentleman himself used to insist, and when we complied.


William Stevens Fielding: I think I can make a contract, that I will bring down the Budget this session as early as my hon. friend opposite did a year ago.

House again in Committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
Department of Agriculture-Dive stock,


Mr. LANCTOT:: I desire to take up a few minutes of the time of the House on a matter of great importance to the electors in my district, and, in fact, of great

interest to the country as a whole. With the permission of the House I will read a resolution passed unanimously by the County Council of Napierville:
At a regular meeting of the Municipal Council of the County of Napierville, held in the office of the Clerk of the Circuit Court, in the Village of Napierville, at ten o'clock in the forenoon, the eighth of March, one thousand nine hundred and twenty-two, in accordance with the provisions of the Municipal Code, at which were present Messrs. Hilaire Damarre, Esquire, Mayor of the Municipality of the Village of St. Kemi; Alfred Marcil, Esquire, Mayor of the Municipality of the Village of St. Michel Archange; Wilfrid Gadouas, Esquire, Mayor of the Municipality of the Village of Napierville; Dosithde Pay ant, Esquire, Mayor of the Municipality of the Parish of 'St. Patrice de Sherrington ; Edouard Mailloux, Esquire, Mayor of the Municipality of the parish of St. Cyprien de D6ry and Warden of the County of Napierville, constituting a quorum under the chairmanship of the Warden.
"It is moved by Mr. Dosithfie Payant, seconded by Councillor Alfred Marcil, that a request be made to the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture, at Ottawa, to place an embargo upon the exportation of manure from Canada to the United States of America: which exportation is calculated to do injury to the gardening industry of this country, to lessen the crops in general throughout Canada; that copies of this request be sent to the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture at Ottawa, also to the Hon. Roch Danctot, Federal Member for the County." Resolution passed.
Edouakd Mailloux, Warden.
Jos. E. Dupont, Sec. Treas.
A true copy extract from the minute-book of the Municipal Council of the County of Napierville. Given at Napierville, Que., in my office, the 14th March, 1922.
Jos. E. Dupont, Sec. Treas.
Some ten years ago the farmers of my county, and of the county adjoining, could buy manure in Montreal and have it delivered to their local station for $13 to $15 a car. At the present time we have to pay from $50 to $52 per car. It is true, the freight has increased in that time from $6 a car to $13 a car. Hon. gentlemen will see that the freight charge has more than doubled, but the cost of the manure to us has increased about four-fold. The manure output of Montreal is practically controlled by one man, Mr. LeFebvre. This gentleman was a resident of my own riding for about twenty-five years, but has been in Montreal for a number of years now. For a time he supplied hay to the Canadian Pacific Railway-that is to say, to the Dominion Transport company which performs transport work for the Canadian Pacific in Montreal. Later he built sidings on the several railways at such points as Hochelaga, Point St. Charles, and other freight terminals of Montreal, and erected

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platforms to facilitate the loading of manure on the cars. The big cartage concerns that handle the manure of the stockyards can take the manure to the sidings and load it into the cars from Mr. Le-Febvre's platforms. In the case of smaller stables whose proprietors have no dump-carts, it is the practice to call up Mr. Le-Febvre's office to haul away the manure as it accumulates. For this service Mr. LeFebvre is paid, as any carter would be paid, $1 or $2 a load. I do not complain about that, but what I do complain about is that Mr. LeFebvre is more lucky than any farmer in this Parliament or in Canada, because since he has been in that line of business he has improved his position by having a wider market, in the United States. There is a man not far from Rouse's Point named Mr. Miner, who buys from Mr. LeFebvre any amount of cars of manure for his farm, and I do not think there is a farm in Canada equal to Mr. Miner's farm. He has at least twelve to fifteen thousand acres. I am told he is worth many million dollars, and he wants to improve his land and produce vegetables of all kinds for the big New York market. He has got the money to do it. We farmers in my part of the country cannot afford to compete with Mr. Miner, because we have not got the millions. It is true that, during war-time, we had to buy the manure from Mr. LeFebvre at any price, because we needed it. Potatoes were selling at a very high price for two or three years, and at that time the farmers could afford to pay a big price for manure. But, as we have often been told in this House since the opening of this session, prices of commodities and especially of farm products have declined. At present prices we cannot make the raising of vegetables as profitable as it used to be. What will be the result if we are not able to stop that gentleman sending out the manure that costs him practically nothing? I say it is not the Liberal policy. Some of my friends have remarked that it is not Liberal to put an embargo on manure. Members from the West know very well that we are not now on new land. We are farming on very old land, and we must have manure. We may be asked, Why do you not buy fertilizers? I say that fertilizers cannot replace manure. My father said to me, when I was under his leadership: "Use abundant manure, and then you will succeed as a farmer; if not, you will not succeed." I think that is true.
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The riding in which I live lies south of Montreal; it starts a mile from the Victoria bridge and extends southwards. Twenty years ago, we were supplying the Bonse-cours market of Montreal with about two per cent of the vegetable requirements of that city. Those who visited Montreal some years ago, and Who have visited it again this year or last year, know that not many gardens are to be seen in what was called "the garden of Montreal" twenty years ago. If you leave Windsor station or the Grand Trunk station and go to Ste. Anne, what do you see? You see little bushes of all kinds; wild cherries grow there, I think, and ail kinds of weeds; hut you do not see what we saw some twenty years ago, namely, melons, cucumbers, cabbages and all other kinds of vegetables with which to supply the city of Montreal. The real estate boom came to Montreal as well as to the West, and made the farmers rich from the sale of their farms.


Mr. McMASTER:: Those who got paid.


Roch Lanctôt: Yes; those who did not get paid are not rich, and I suppose they had to take back their farms. But conditions have changed; in order to have vegetable products with which to feed the people of Montreal, we on the south side of the river St. Lawrence must replace the gardens of the Island of Montreal, and we must go into mixed farming and raising vegetables of all kinds. We have been at that work now for the last ten years or more, and I say, without fear of contradiction, that my constituency to-day raises more vegetables than the whole Island of Montreal. As is well known, we have had and still have a good government in Quebec, and my colleague, the present Minister of Justice (Sir Lomer Gouin), was Premier of my province for fifteen years or more. He brought about the enactment of good lawis and we, the farmers, 'have profited by those laws. Throughout my riding, there have been constructed good macadam roads, without which it would be impossible to-day to supply the big city of Montreal. Those who live thirty miles from the Victoria bridge are really close to that bridge to-day; twenty years ago they were, comparatively speaking, very far away from it. For, at that time, we had mud roads; nowadays we have good macadam roads, and our farmers, having made money, have purchased two-ton trucks, and to-day they can go to Montreal, at any time during the year except, perhaps, when big snow storms occur in the winter, with sixty
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bags of potatoes or a like quantity of any other vegetable products. This is the reason that we are getting along so well. And we want to do (better. We have been told on many occasions in this House, and told truly, that there is need of more production and still more production. If manure from the city of Montreal goes to the United States, and we cannot get it for less than $52 a car, its present price, and if we must sell our products at one-half or less what we received during the war, what does that mean? It means that we shall reduce our production. And what does that mean for the people of Montreal? If they do not receive from our part of the country the vegetables they require, they will have to go further away for those products and will have to pay about double what they would pay if we had what is necessary for that sort of cultivation, namely, manure from the city at cost price. This is what the people in my riding and the riding next to mine want. I am not sure if any of my hon. friends in this House think it is bad politics to ask this Government to impose an embargo to prevent shipment into the United States of the most essential requirement for successful farming. I do not know how the western members feel about this matter; but as a farmer myself, as one who has been in this House for quite a number of years and who is still a farmer, I would ask them to help me out on this question, because, as I have said before, in our part of the country we need manure in order to grow, not grain as is grown in the West, hut vegetables of all kinds for the benefit of the big population of Montreal-and I think the same thing must apply to Toronto and other big cities. We are situated very close to the boundary line, the distance from Montreal to Rouse's Point being about forty-three miles; and my friend, LeFe'bvre, who has all the sidings and controls all the manure, takes advantage of this to benefit the United States at Canada's expense. That is to say, if the farmers of my riding and of the riding of the hon. member for St. John and Iberville (Mr. Demers) refuse to pay $52 a ton f.oJb. delivered at their station, he tells them: "If you do not buy, I will go to the United States and Mr. Miner is open for all the surplus I have." This is the reason why I brought this matter before the House to-day. I do not want to dwell any more on this question. I think the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Motherwell) will do all that is possible for the electors and farmers of this country, who [Mr. Lanctot.l
at the present time are not too prosperous, and give us the manure we require to raise the best crops.


Mr. LEWIS:: I do not wish to prolong this debate nor to delay the passing of the agricultural estimates, but yesterday reference was made to the cattle embargo removal in Great Britain, and I had my attention drawn to-day to a certain article in the press giving statements made by the Hon. P. C. Larkin, High Commissioner for Canada, on this subject. The statements that he made reflect upon the honour, integrity and loyalty of the prairie provinces, and I take exception to them. I wish, furthermore, to place this matter before the Government in order to be informed if they understand that Mr. Larkin is making such threats. We are quite prepared to believe that it is in the interest of all Canadians that the embargo should be removed; but we do not believe that the High Commissioner has a right to make a threat to the British Government at the expense of the prairie provinces. The article reads:
Representations of the strongest character concerning the effect which failure to remove the embargo on cattle would produce in Canada have been made to the British Cabinet by Hon. P. C. Larkin. The new High Commissioner has assured the Ministers that the Government's failure to redeem its pledge to remove the cattle ban would place a potential weapon of considerable power in the hands of the annexationists of the Prairie provinces-
Why the prairie provinces?
-and other foes in Canada of the imperial connection. It is understood that he has conveyed to the Cabinet the strong feeling which exists that the decision to leave the question to the free vote of the British Parliament is not regarded by Canada as fully implementing the Government's promise, as given by Lord Ernie during the war. The proposed resolution favoring the lifting of the embargo will probably pass the Commons, and may even pass the House of Lords if Canada makes its demand sufficiently strong, but even then it would be necessary to introduce and pass a bill to carry out the sense of the resolution, and such a measure would be bitterly contested.
Hon. Mr. Larkin has already made a good impression here and the High Commissioner's office seems in a fair way to become the positive force for the advancement of Canada's interests and ends.
Well, if that is the impression that Hon. Mr. Larkin is making, the sooner he is recalled the better. The minister of. Agriculture is a loyal citizen of the West and is interested in the prairie provinces, and I call this matter to his attention in the hope that he will not allow it to pass unnoticed by this Parliament. It is a reflection upon

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the integrity and loyalty of the prairie provinces; we on this side of the House take great exception to the remarks I have quoted.


Mr. MOTHERWELL:: I did not gather,
from the reading of the article by my hon. friend (Mr. Lewis), the authority for the statement that Mr. Larkin had made the remarks attributed to him. I was one of those who had a final conference with Mr. Larkin, the High Commissioner, before he left Canada, and this question of the embargo was discussed. We were both of the same mind as to the nature of the invocation that might be made in the effort to have the embargo removed, and our common view was precisely that of the hon. member f.or Victoria (Mr. Tolmie) namely, that we should certainly persevere in the matter, but, at the same time, use the light pedal. It was our opinion that we should not go out with the club in hand; as was suggested yesterday, there has been too great a use of that weapon in the past in connection with the embargo, with mighty little prospect of success. That is not the way to approach anybody, but particularly the British public, more especially at this critical time when an election is in the offing. We should not put ourselves in the position of trying to embarrass the British authorities by apparently taking sides in an election which is a matter of entirely domestic concern. And in view of that conversation with Hon. Mr. Larkin I feel quite confident, at least until I have information to the contrary before me, that he never did indulge in such representations to the British government as are attributed to him. That is the position I will take until I have further proof to the contrary. I know what Mr. Larkin's views were, I know what mine are, and I know what opinion the leader of this Government (Mr. Mackenzie King) holds on the subject, and I feel quite satisfied that Mr. Larkin did not use the remarks ascribed to him.
With further reference to the question of embargo, I should say that, having very fully discussed yesterday the desirability of taking off an embargo, it is somewhat embarrassing to be asked to-day to put one on, even though one relates to animals and the other to animal product. The question raised by my hon. friend from Laprairie and Napierville (Mr. Lanctot) is, however, a very important one. Apparently in the past he has been able to secure natural fertilizer in the vicinity of Montreal at $13 or $14 per car, for which
he now has to pay $53 or $54* There is one obvious solution to that difficulty, and that is to give about a dollar more than the Americans give, so that the commodity will stay in the vicinity of Montreal. I have no doubt, of course, that the reply will be made that that is more than the business would stand. But, inasmuch as the placing of an embargo on even natural fertilizers would involve a government policy, I am not in a position to enunciate one offhand. I will assure my hon. friend, however, that anything that can be done locally will be done. I think that possibly something might be done in regard to freight rates.
I understand that our railways carry manures, both natural and artificial, on a cheap rate basis, and possibly some representation might be made to the authorities at Montreal towards solving the problem the hon. member has raised. At all events, we will inquire into this matter before taking the more drastic step of invoking the remedy of an embargo. After all-, an embargo is a restraint of trade, and I am sure my hon. friends opposite will sympathise with me when I say that just a little restraint . of trade as possible should be brought into play even for such a worthy purpose as this.


Mr. HOCKEN:: Will the minister get in touch with the Hon. Mr. Larkin by cable and let the House know, at the first opportunity, whether he did make the statements he is alleged to have made?


William Richard Motherwell: We should have
quite a cable bill-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


William Richard Motherwell: Wait until I am through before you laugh.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: I will pay the cable myself, if that is the objection.


William Richard Motherwell: My hon. friends might reserve their laughter until I have concluded my remarks. If everything that appeared in the press were made the subject of a cable, we should run up a serious bill, [DOT]and I do not see why we should do that. I have not seen the article in question, and I heard it but indistinctly. I gleaned the substance of it, however, and it did not occur to me that there was any necessity to cable Mr. Larkin asking him whether or not he was the author of these alleged statements. However, the First Minister is present and he may have something to say on the matter. I do not take much stock in these things, and I should not be
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a bit surprised if, as a result of the discussion that took place yesterday in this House, some remarkable press statements should appear in the United Kingdom with respect to what transpired in this Chamber.


Arthur John Lewis: I do not care whether the minister communicates with Mr. Larkin by cable or otherwise, but I do think that this press report from the special correspondent of The Gazette in London should be either retracted or confirmed; for if it is authentic it is a reflection on the people of the West. The matter should be cleared up for their sake.


Arthur Meighen: I think the minister spoke rather hurriedly, or he would not have given utterance to the expression he used, that the matter of cost should intervene as between correcting or not correcting a statement made by the official representative of this Dominion.


William Richard Motherwell: That is not what I said.


Arthur Meighen: That is not what my hon. friend said? Then why was the matter of cost introduced if it has no relevancy to the question? Why was it brought in at all?


William Richard Motherwell: If you will permit me I will state again what I said.


Arthur Meighen: My hon. friend will have an opportunity to explain himself, but the matter of cost was introduced by him-


William Richard Motherwell: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: -in connection with the request that he seek to find out whether or not a representative of this country made certain statements attributed to him. It may be that there are false press reports which the Government does not see fit to correct or to pay any attention to. That is quite true. But Mr. Larkin represents this Dominion in Great Britain, and if there are attributed to him statements which he certainly should not make in that capacity, then it is the duty of the Government, undoubtedly, to ascertain whether or' not he did make those statements. If they were uttered they were uttered on behalf of this country. Suppose it turns out that he did not make them. Is it not well that this country should know that its representative did not so misunderstand his duty as to give utterance to such sentiments? The country is entitled to know, yes or no. Consequently the minister should say definitely and at once that he will ascertain 
whether those statements were or were not made by Mr. Larkin and let the House know accordingly at the first moment.


William Richard Motherwell: I have not yet seen the report. When I see it, if it appears serious enough I will carry out the suggestion made by my hon. friend and by the member for Swift Current (Mr. Lewis). But until I know the source of the report, and the value to be attributed to that source, 1 do not propose to send cablegrams on information of that kind.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: Do you want to appoint a royal commission to find out.
Mr. MOTHERW'ELL: The remark I made was that if the Government paid heed to every press report, whether correct or incorrect, a very substantial expense would be incurred for cablegrams. I had not caught the word "annexationist." I do not wonder at the hon. member for Swift Current being exercised over it, inasmuch as the term has been often used against the prairie provinces much nearer home. I will reconsider my decision, Mr. Chairman, and when this estimate is passed I shall take such steps as may be necessary to meet the situation. Yes, it is a very offensive term, and until I get further evidence I shall not be satisfied that it was used by the High Commissioner. But, as I said before, it is often used much nearer home.


Mr. CALDWELL:: Mr. Chairman, I was much interested in the hon. minister's statement that he understood the railways carried both natural and artificial fertilizers at reduced rates. I sincerely hope his understanding is correct, but I am afraid it is not.


William Richard Motherwell: They carry natural fertilizers at reduced rates.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Did you not include artificial fertilizers?


William Richard Motherwell: Possibly not.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: When the Board of Railway Commissioners ruled that gravel and crushed stone for roadmaking purposes would not be subject to the increased rates,
I inquired of them whether ground limestone for agricultural purposes and artificial fertilizers might not come under the same ruling, as I thought it was of more interest to the country at large to have cheap transportation of fertilizers than even of road-making materials. I would urge upon the minister to take up with the

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Railway Commission the desirability of low rates on fertilizers.
I asked the minister yesterday afternoon, but did not get any reply, what was his attitude towards establishing an abattoir and cold storage plant for the maritime provinces.


William Richard Motherwell: I answered that question, but my hon. friend was out at the time.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Pardon me. I did not have time to read Hansard this morning. Mr. Chairman, I crave indulgence to refer to an item that I believe was passed yesterday afternoon while I was absent attending a meeting of the Pensions Committee. -Item 52, Administration of the Agricultural Instruction Act. Have I your permission, Mr. Chairman?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Agreed.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: This, I imagine, applies largely to the expense of furnishing lecturers to instruct farmers how to farm. If that is so, I would impress upon the minister that it is not necessary to instruct farmers as they have been instructed in the past-


William Richard Motherwell: I might correct my hon. friend. It might be assumed that this item covers the activities of lecturers, but it does not.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I think the matter might well be discussed also under the item now before the committee. In times past we have had lecturers advising the farmers in New Brunswick, not to improve their methods, but to adopt different methods of farming. I am not referring to any particular lecturers, but, generally their policy has been to tell us that we have been absolutely wrong in the lines we have been following, and to advise us to adopt other lines which, according to their view, would be much to our advantage. I think money expended on such lectures is thrown away, because a farming community cannot discard their methods and embark on other methods at a moment's notice. If these lecturers are to instruct us in future, I would suggest that natives of the province whose farmers they are to instruct should be employed, in fact men who know the local conditions, because those conditions vary very much. I think it would he money well spent to provide instructors whose policy should be to instruct the farmers to improve the methods of the branch of farming which they are already carrying
on. For instance, it is waste of time for lecturers to tell the farmers of New Brunswick to go into wheat growing; and it is possible that advice to embark in dairying would be just as useless, due to the fact that we are too far removed from local markets and have no cheese factories to utilize dairy products. If those lecturers can show us how to carry on our present farming activities to better advantage by improved methods, the money would be well spent. I think the minister gave a reply to my question regarding the establishment of abattoir and cold storage facilities.


William Stevens Fielding: ' With regard to the statement attributed to Mr. Larkin, I want to be permitted to give two reasons why I am satisfied that he never uttered it. My first reason is, my faith in his sound judgment, good sense and discretion; my second reason is, I read that statement, in almost the exact words, in the press a week ago, but attributed to somebody else, not named, in England. I am quite satisfied that the statement made by somebody else, evidently an irresponsible person, has been improperly attributed to Mr. Larkin.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Possibly this is an echo of one of the statements made by the right hon. leader of the Opposition (Mr. Meighen) last fall and still ringing down the halls of time.


Arthur Meighen: It may be an echo of deliberate misrepresentation of statements of the leader of the Opposition, circulated for the same purposes that hon. gentlemen opposite circulated assurances that they would give cash grants to soldiers and other like favours; misrepresentations that doubtless were in the mind of the Minister of Agriculture a moment ago when he sought, in a covert way, to convey the impression that others had declared that there were annexationists in the West, but which he won't stand in his place and attribute to any individual in this House.


William Richard Motherwell: No.


Arthur Meighen: No words of mine ever reflected in the least degree on the loyalty of western Canada, nor did any newspaper report that I ever read of any assertions of mine attribute such words to me. By the time, however, that they get on the lips of men who are anxious to make political capital, not for the sake of political reforms but for the sake of office, and to carry out in office exactly the things they denounced in opposition,-when they get around to the lips of men like that, they
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finally reach the form which perhaps Mr. Larkin might have copied. But, if Mr. Larkin is over there copying misrepresentations, it is time he returned. I am quite ready to accept the judgment of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding). I cannot conceive that any man of Mr. Larkin's standing could make such a statement as this. I know what it is to be misrepresented, and I am not going to abuse Mr. Larkin until I know exactly what he said.


William Richard Motherwell: Taking the last criticism first, Mr. Chairman, I did not even look at the right hon. gentleman when I was speaking about the question of annexation. Why should he be so quick to put the cap on right over his ears without any suggestion on my part that it belonged there?


Arthur Meighen: Will the hon. gentleman quote me when I put the cap on?


William Richard Motherwell: My right hon.
friend referred to it and said he had never dealt with it-


Arthur Meighen: No; I said the hon.
gentleman would not attribute it to anybody in this House.


William Richard Motherwell: Well, the circumstances I had in mind related to the election campaign of 1911, in which reciprocity was an issue-why the air was blue with it. My hon. friends have very short memories. But let us get back to agriculture for a moment, and to natural fertilizers, not artificial fertilizers.
With regard to cold storage, I may repeat briefly what I said last night in reply to the hon. member for Victoria and Carle-ton (Mr. Caldwell). Under the terms of a cold storage act passed many years ago, substantial assistance was given to those engaging in the construction of cold storage plants. Until about 1917 or 1918, thirty per cent of the cost of construction was paid by the federal government as a subsidy to all cold storage plants constructed under plans and specifications laid down by the Department of Agriculture. That law was changed to apply only to municipal cold storages, in order that the burden on the revenues of the country might be decreased. Very few plants- possibly only one or two-have been constructed under the amended law. I would like to have advised the Minister of Finance to revert this year to the original enactment providing for the thirty percent subsidy, but I did not think I was justified in doing it this year. Possibly

we may be able to do so another year when the treasury is less depleted-and I think if we did, it would go a long way toward meeting the situation. Of course, I cannot pledge the Government to that policy. The question of cold storage is becoming a very vital one, not only in my hon. friend's province but in other provinces as well. British Columbia in particular.
The question of lectures has been referred to. I have driven twenty-five miles after dark from Abernethy to Indian Head to hear an agricultural lecture, only to listen to an address by someone who did not know beans when the bag was open. I do not know whether any of the lecturers my hon. friend refers to have been down in his district since the first of January. I am prepared to take responsibility for any shortcomings in that regard, even those which date back to the time prior to my taking office; if these men are there yet, I am responsible for it.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I am not referring
to anything just lately.


William Richard Motherwell: If my hon. friend will inform me confidentially as to some of the gentlemen who do not measure up, we will try to improve matters. There again, of course, I am up against the Civil Service Commission: we can dismiss them, but we cannot appoint others.
I think my hon. friend was correct in saying that the reduced freight rate does apply to the natural fertilizer, and many arguments could be advanced in support of the contention that it should apply to the artificial fertilizer also.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I would like to make a statement in regard to the ground limestone. In New Brunswick ground limestone is very badly needed; acid phosphate has a tendency to make the soil become acid, and the application of ground limestone is necessary to correct that condition, In order to provide our farmers with this limestone the provincial governemnt got a special freight rate from the railway companies which ensured the delivery of ground limestone anywhere in the province at $5 a ton. But when the last increase of freight rates came into effect, the rate on ground limestone was increased by about $2 a ton-I am not positive as to the exact amount, but that was the ap-
4 p.m. proximate increase. The result has been almost to prohibit the use of ground limestone in New Brunswick, to the great detriment of production. I

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think that this matter should be brought very forcibly to the attention of the Railway Commission. I have in my feeble way tried to do that, but I was informed in reply that you could produce an argument in favour of a reduction of freight rates on anything. That was a rather flippant way to deal with a question which is of the greatest importance, to us at least. When you increase the price of ground limestone from $5 to $7 or thereabouts, through increased freight rates, it is a very serious thing, and I would like to see some action taken to afford us relief.


William Richard Motherwell: I will keep the matter in mind.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Last Mountain) :: The minister will remember that his predecessor in office met those interested in the production and marketing of bacon through a conference held last fall, with a view of discussing the improvement of the quality of our bacon, both in its raw state and in the finished condition. What results, if any, have come from that conference?


William Richard Motherwell: The conference was held in November and was attended by representatives of all the departments of Agriculture as well as by producers and representatives of abattoirs, the idea being to work out a plan of grading of hogs or bacon. Shortly after the new government was formed we started to carry out the conclusions of the conference. The necessary Orders in Council have gone through, and the whole question has got the 'once over'. But it is amazing what an intricate matter it is to get appointments made. It is simply a question now of getting the men for the positions. As my hon. friend knows, advertisement has to be made and applications have to be received. I assume that when the positions are advertised there will be from 150 to 200 applicants for the 20 or 22 positions. It will take about two weeks to advertise the positions; then the receiving of applications will take a little while longer, after which the process of examination must take place, the rating of the applicants, and so on. I cannot, therefore, give my hon. friend any assurance when the actual grading of hogs will be in operation. My deputy tells me that with reasonable luck-because I cannot put it in any other way-we shall be able to put the ball into play about the first of June; we were aiming at starting about the first of May. We would like to commence when the business is slack, so there will be the least possible disturbance
to the old order of things in the introduction of the new.


John Frederick Johnston: Does the minister's explanation mean that his department is implementing the work done by those conferences? '


William Richard Motherwell: Yes.


John Frederick Johnston: Might I ask the minister's opinion as to the grading of live hogs? Does he think it will be effective, and what benefit will result to the producer?


William Richard Motherwell: Before I answer the first question I may say that provision for paying these men is made in the vote under discussion. Everything has been provided for:	Regulations	have been
drafted, Orders in Council passed, and the matter is now either before the Civil Service Commission or on the point of being sent there-I do know it has got to go to the commission. As to my hon. friend's other question, I was not at the conference referred to, but I have had a discussion with a number of those who were, and the idea is this: As time goes on the tendency in all agricultural countries, owing to the keen competition-not only to secure markets but to retain them-is to put all farm products on the market in a graded condition, and to encourage the buying based upon quality. That is to say, in order to get quality you must encourage quality, in order to encourage quality you must pay on that basis; and-just as the hon. member's wheat, oats, barley or rye out in Last Mountain is paid for on the basis of quality-the hope is that by the grading of hogs, which is certainly difficult but not impossible to carry out, payment will be largely made on the basis of quality and that will encourage quality. Now, the idea of these hog graders is not to grade every consignment that comes in, but rather to grade those that the buyer and the seller disagree on. If my hon. friend were the purchaser of hogs and I the seller, as long as we could agree on the grade there would be no difficulty about the transaction; but if we disagreed then the matter would be referred to this grader or, as it would be more proper to call him, referee. That is the way we propose to start. I think that even the grade my hon. friend and I might agree on should be made the subject of record even though we do not refer to the referee at all, so that we would be able to keep track of how the amount in hogs corresponds with the
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amount in. first-class bacon the abattoir may turn out. The whole matter, I think, tends in the right direction. It is not desired to disturb the trade any more than is necessary. The grader may be said to be rather a referee. That referee will represent the abattoirs and also the producers and both will abide by his decision. In addition the understanding is that, based upon this quality, the abattoirs will bid in order to play their part and thus incidentally prevent their doors being closed for the want of business, a condition that some of them are in to-day. The abattoirs will bid a premium on all selects, of ten per cent, I think it is. That is the understanding, but it will not be easy to work out the proportion. It may gradually become absorbed into the general price. At any rate, I have explained the object we have in view, and that is the intent of the contract.


Mr. McQUARRIE:: I would like to impress upon the minister the hardships that will be suffered by exhibition associations if a reduction of even twenty-five per cent is made in the grants for this purpose. I believe in economy, and I suppose we must think about economizing, but it seems to me that this is just about the last place where we should start that principle. I think we should do everything possible to encourage agriculture, and it seems to me that one of the best ways to do so is to encourage the holding of these fairs. In my constituency we hold an exhibition under the auspices of the Royal Agricultural and Industrial Society, an exhibition that boasts of being the best in the West, and personally I think it is a very good show indeed. We have a splendid display of agricultural exhibits and of live stock; it is a very complete and interesting exhibition. Unfortunately, I believe the exhibition associations have counted on having the full grant this year. I believe they were told that before any reduction was made they would be notified and afforded the opportunity of being heard by the minister. They received no notice whatever that any reduction was to be made this year, and they have made up their prize lists, and based their expenditures, on the expectation of the full grant. Now, I submit to the minister, it is hardly fair that this reduction be made without notice. I would also suggest to him that before his policy in this regard is finally determined he give the fair managers the opportunity of making representations to him. I think they have asked for a conference, and I would suggest in all 
seriousness to the minister that he might very well consider the advisability of having this conference with the fair managers of the whole Dominion before he finally adopts his policy with regard to exhibition grants.


William Richard Motherwell: I think my hon. friend looks so good natured over it that he rather expects this small reduction.


William Garland McQuarrie: No, not for this year.


Mr. SUTHERLAND:: I would like to ask the minister whether there is to be any change in the vote for the National Live Stock Records. I believe there has been a vote of $20,000 a year for quite a number of years back to assist the National Live Stock Records in carrying on their work. It is well known that the work of the records board has increased very much during the last few years, and the live stock associations of the Dominion find a good deal of difficulty in carrying on at the present time-in fact, some of them have been compelled to increase their registration fees as a result of the increased obligations that they have had to assume. J notice there are twenty-six of these record associations and I will hurriedly run over the list. They are:
Canadian Aberdeen Angus Association, Canadian Ayrshire Breeders' Association, Can. Belgian Draft Horse Breeders' Ass'n, Canadian Brown ISwiss Association, Clydesdale Horse Association of Canada, French Canadian Cattle Breeders' Ass'n, Can. French Coach Breeders' Association, French Canadian Horse Breeders' Ass'n, North American Galloway Association, Canadian Goat Society, Canadian Guernsey Breeders' Association, Canadian Hackney Horse Society, Canadian Hereford Breeders' Association, Canadian Jersey Cattle Club, Canadian Kennel Club, Canadian P'ercheron Horse Breeders Ass'n, Canadian Pony 'Society, Canadian Red Polled Association, Canadian -Sheep Breeders' Association, Canadian 'Shire Horse Association, Dominion Shorthorn Breeders' Association, Canadian Silver Fox Breeders' Association, Canadian Standard Bred Horse Society, Canadian Suffolk Horse Society, Canadian ISwine Breeders' Association, Canadian Thoroughbred Horse 'Society.
I think the House will agree as to the importance of keeping the record of the pure-breds of all stock raised in this country. I believe that the outlook for the farmers of Canada depends more upon raising stock of a high standard than upon attempting to supply the demand for inferior animals, and I do not know of anything that will conduce more to the promotion of the interests of the live stock industry in the Dominion than assisting the live stock associations to carry on.

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As I pointed out, the grant, I believe, for a number of years has been $20,000 per year, and I believe that for some time past the associations have been making requests of the Government for an increase. In this connection I might point out that the money received by these associations for fees, and for recording pedigrees and transferring records, in 1917 was $111,000 approximately; in 1918 $123,000; in 1919, $147,000; in 1920, $155,000; and in 1921, $171,689. There has been an increase in those five years of $60,615 in the fees they collected, which indicates that the work has spread very rapidly. I think more attention is being paid by the farmers of this country to improving the various breeds and keeping a record as to the purity of the breeds than there has been at any time in the past. I believe the department has endeavoured to do good work along this line for many years, and il am in sympathy with the demands which have been made by the live stock associations in the requests for greater assistance along this line. This item of $1,000,000 is the same amount that has been placed in the Estimates for many years past. The charge is often made that the grants for agricultural purposes are not as large as they might be, and this is one thing that might well receive the favourable consideration of the minister and the Government. I think an increased grant should be given to the National Live-stock Record, because the increase in the salaries which they had to pay has been very great indeed. I understand the salaries paid by the Records Board amounted to somewhere about $50,000 per year, and $20,000 seems a very small amount to vote towards assisting the Live-stock Records Board. I would suggest that the minister consider the requests which have been made by the Records Board and the Live-stock Associations for a more generous contribution toward expenses. The necessity should not be forced upon these associations to increase the registration fees, as the boards have done during the past few years. In the case of some of the boards the registration fees have been doubled during the last year or two as a result of an increased expenditure, and this is not conducive to the maintenance of the purity of the breeds, because in many instances, I believe, animals are allowed to go unrecorded if the fees are too high.


William Richard Motherwell: I quite agree with the hon. gentleman in all he has said. I am
not familiar with the details as to the amount of assistance given in past years, but I have in my hand an itemized summary of what we are giving them now. I might point out that not only is this an important branch with respect to preserving the records and pedigrees of animals, but it is also important by reason of the fact that it is taking care of new lines of activity. The work is extending all the time in many lines of work, which, in years past, they did not take care of, and I have no doubt as time goes on their activities will increase and widen in scope:
Grant to the Live Stock records $20,000	00
Printing	
5,944	26Stationery	
500	00
Salaries, for employees. Live
Stock Branch		5,840 00
Cartage	
120	00Rent	
6,249	00Taxes	
1,359	75Lighting	
239	23Power	
19600Water	
100	63Elevator Attendants	
1,260	00
Free Postage, estimated as
worth	 12,000	00
Total	 $53,808 00
In addition to what they have been getting last year, they have been given certain printing assistance and also certain additional office accommodation. I do not suppose there is a branch in the whole department where the officials would not tell you they could spend more money to advantage, and this particular activity is similar to the other branches in that respect. It is not spoken of usually as a branch, but it is similar to a branch, I have no doubt they could spend more money to advantage. They require additional office space and printing in addition to what they got last year. That is about the only difference.


Mr. BRETHEN:: I belong to a breed
association of some two or three thousand members, who are receiving no assistance, but who have had to increase their fees, and I believe this money might be used to better advantage. While I am in favour of the grant to this industry, I am not favourable to devoting the whole grant to the interest of special breeds. I believe this matter might well be taken into consideration in making an additional grant for this purpose. Since coming to this House I have been more or less conversant with the principle of public ownership, but when we have a breed organization which is capable of conducting its affairs to its members' satisfaction at least, and quite as economically as the Government would, I fail to see the advan-
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tage of. Government ownership in the matter of records. I draw this to the attention of the minister, because it might otherwise be overlooked.


Mr. HARRIS:: Last night the minister
was good enough to allow this matter to stand over, to give him an opportunity to bring in facts and figures in regard to the hog cholera, and perhaps the impression was left on the House yesterday that the amount of hog cholera was in proportion to the amount of compensation. Some questions were put to the minister and we expected an answer to-day. Before the estimates are passed, I should be glad if the minister would answer these questions, as briefly as possible, so that the House would understand that the amount of compensation is not an index to the amount of hog cholera prevalent .in the Dominion, but rather that the number of cases recorded and the number of cases where compensation was not paid would, perhaps, be a better index.


William Richard Motherwell: I have been so
busy with certain other phases of the live stock question that I am sure I will be excused for not going back to hog cholera until I was asked to do so. However, I have a statement here and I do not know how good my hon. friend from South Oxford (Mr. Sutherland) will consider the authority. The statement reads:
Reasons for not permitting the use of double treatment for hog cholera in Canada. The double treatment means the simultaneous injection of hogs cholera serum and the active virus of the disease.
1.	Double treatment perpetuates the disease.
Every double treated hog is a carrier of the
virus for an indefinite period after the treatment, and during that time may convey the disease to susceptible hogs.
That is better put than what I said yesterday, but the meaning is the same:
2.	Double treatment sometimes causes outbreaks of hog cholera. Experience of the United States shows heavy losses from so-called "breaks" after treatment.
3.	Double treatment may disseminate other diseases. During the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in the United States in 1914-15, the disease was spread in some instances by this means.
4.	Double treatment is unnecessary in Canada as losses from this disease are very small.
There is my authority. I have no doubt the disease is serious in spots. In the West about ten years ago I saw outbreaks that were exceedingly serious. The disease may exist there now, but I have not seen any cases of it recently:

During the past year only 429 hogs were destroyed for hog cholera in all Canada. Compare this with the average annual loss in the United States for three years of $55,000,000.
Of course, we must take into consideration the difference in population. I have not figured that out, neither has Dr. Torrance.
5.	Control of hog cholera by immunization when once begun must be kept up indefinitely. All young hogs in double-treated herds must be treated or disease will appear. The cost of this to hog growers in the United States amounts to $7,500,000 a year for serum and virus, not counting payment to veterinarians applying the treatment.
Serum and virus alone cost $7,500,000. Travelling expenses in administering this serum must be enormous.



HOG CHOLERA-SWINE DESTROYED, COMPENSATION, ETC.

[Stage Direction]
Number of swine
destroyed Compensation
For the	years ending-		
March,	31, 1919. . . .	2,163	$23,342 74March	31, 1920.. ..	1,642	19,001 71March	31, 1921. . . .	3,354	22,003 33March	31, 1922. . ..	429	3,055 06For the March	year ending- 31, 1922. . . .	Number of swine serum treated .. .. 2,557	For the March	year ending- 31, 1921-22..	Serum Purchased 261,000 c.c.	Purchase price $3,581
There is no regularity in the decrease in number of animals slaughtered; the number varies. This year the number is noticeably larger than that of last year.
Then Dr. Torrance makes this statement:
The method of dealing with hog cholera in Canada is to first control the feeding of garbage on a large scale by strictly enforcing Regulation 882, which provides for the licensing of all parties feeding garbage collected from other premises; (2) strict supervision of these premises to ensure proper sanitation and early detection of disease; (3) outbreaks are dealt with by promptly destroying all affected hogs, and by serum treating-all hogs that have been in direct or indirect contact with them, and (4) by serum treating all hogs returned from public stock yards to farms for breeding or feeding whenever hog cholera makes its appearance in the yards or vicinity.
By these means hog cholera has been kept down to a minimum during the past few years.
I think this is the information that my hon. friend desired most.
Number of swine destroyed for hog cholera, for which there was no compensation paid.
For the year ending-
March	31,	1919	
206March	31,	1920	
89March	31,	1921	
1,341March	31,	1922	
108
If I have omitted anything, I have done so inadvertently.

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Mr. MACLEAN (Prince) :: I think it would be only fair to give a tabulated statement regarding the different provinces. We would like to know where this hog cholera is. Perhaps the minister has not the information.


William Richard Motherwell: I understand that hog cholera is more prevalent in this province and in British Columbia. There is also some in Quebec. I understand there is a little all over; but in some provinces it is almost exterminated, while British Cor lumbia and Ontario have probably more than other provinces, but not to such an extent as to make it pronouncedly conspicuous.


Donald Sutherland: Do I understand that, during the year 1920, only 89 hogs were slaughtered for which compensation was refused?


William Richard Motherwell: That was for the year ending March 31, 1920. A very small number of hogs were slaughtered that year. These amounts correspond to the totals I have cited; there is a relationship between them. In 1920, the total number of swine destroyed was 1642; the next year the total number was 3,354, twice as many.


Donald Sutherland: The matter which I brought to the minister's attention last night occurred in March, 1920, when over 200 animals belonging to one man were slaughtered and compensation was refused. This must be for a different year.


William Richard Motherwell: All hogs actually slaughtered in one year may not appear in that year's accounts. As fiscal years come together, payment for some hogs slaughtered in one year will appear in the accounts for the following year. That is unavoidable. That is so in the case of the year 1921, where the number slaughtered increases from 89 to 1,341. Should there be a heavy slaughter at the end of one fiscal year, the number will show big at the beginning of the next year.


Donald Sutherland: It seems remarkable that there should have been so many during the year 1921. The impression prevails in many quarters that it was the policy of the department to discontinue the licensing of people to feed garbage to their hogs; and if the purpose is to stop the spread of the disease, I do not know that it is not a good policy to pursue. Was any effort made in that year to discourage the feeding of garbage by withholding compensation from those who had sustained
losses? It has been pointed out to me that a number of people have had their animals destroyed and that the department has refused to issue licenses.


William Richard Motherwell: This large increase in hogs that were slaughtered without compensation in 1921 was due to the fact that we had a larger amount of imported bacon. Inasmuch as 90 per cent of hog cholera is traceable to garbage, there was thought to be a relationship between the amount of hog cholera, and the larger amount of importations of American bacon, which proves that that is the source of the contagion. That is good circumstantial evidence, at all events.


Donald Sutherland: Does the minister contend that the importation of American bacon was the chief source of the hog cholera that was introduced into this country?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes. The portion that goes into the swill barrel carries the germ. With regard to the matter of discouraging the licensing of the feeding of garbage, licenses have been refused men who violated the regulations in the past. Such men could not have their licenses renewed, and as a matter of fact they did not get them in the first place until they complied with the conditions laid down. The only change that has been contemplated at all has been the substitution of larger kettles for cooking garbage, so as to avoid the necessity of procuring more expensive boilers. It has been pointed out that if the hog owners were allowed to use larger kettles that could be looked after by unskilled labour, they could feed more cheaply than if they had an expensive boiler that necessitated the services of a semi-expert when the boss was away from home. I have not had an opportunity of looking into the question, but it seems. rational enough.


Donald Sutherland: Last night I
asked for information with regard to the, amount paid by the Department of Agriculture in the way of freight and expenses on carloads of cattle during the year 1921. I think the minister promised to give that information to-day.


William Richard Motherwell: The following is
a memorandum with regard to the cost of free freight policy for 1921:
Memorandum re Car Lot and Free Freight Policy
Cost of free freight policy for 1921-*
Eastern Canada	$	47 29
Western Canada	 22,414 75
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Cost of car lot policy for 1921-
Eastern Canada	 $	11 25
Western Canada	 9,936 65
The records of the Live Stock Branch show only the movement out from each stock yard and not by provinces. It would take considerable time to compile a definite statement of costs from each yard, but approximately the cost may be divided as follows:
Per cent
Calgary	 65
Edmonton	 15
Winnipeg	 15
Moose Jaw	 5
On Page 21-23 of the Live Stock Branch Estimates will be found a detailed statement of the movement of live stock under these policies since their inception.


Donald Sutherland: What percentage
has been paid during these years in eastern Canada? The minister has given the figures for western Canada. It is necessary that we should have some more light on some of these items in this vote for $1,000,000, which is the most important vote that goes through in connection with the Department of Agriculture. There are many branches of agriculture which receive assistance through it, and it is well that the committee should know where the bulk of the money goes and what results are obtained. In regard to this particular item to which I have referred, it is quite apparent that practically the whole sum is distributed in western Canada. I have also asked what amount was paid in grants for the payment of feed for live stock during the year 1921; and I want some information with regard to the control of the stockyards. The department exercises control over the licensing of commission men or firms who dispose of live stock on the live stock markets. Have any complaints been received from any of the stockyards in regard to these licensed commission men, and have any investigations been held into their operations?


William Richard Motherwell: I do not know
which of these many questions I shall answer first. I have a memorandum with regard to some features of the question regarding the amounts expended during the last four years in connection with the shortage of feed in western Canada. I shall read it:
With regard to the amounts expended during the last four years in connection with the shortage of feed in Western Canada, particularly in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba, the amounts paid out by the Federal Department of Agriculture for the transportation of haymaking machinery from the dry area to points where hay was plentiful and return, of hay and other feed to the dry area from points outside and of live stock from the dry area to feeding grounds outside and return, were as follows:

1918- 19	$ 49,994 78
1919-	20	
620,135	541920-	21	
309,942	541921-	22	
5,704	45

With regard to the complaints about live stock yards, I had a number of resolutions from the Alberta Grain Growers' convention, through its secretary, Mr. Higginbotham, and I also had an interview with a number of members from Alberta. I think we satisfied them that any serious difficulties were just such as might be expected in comparatively newly organized stockyards. In the older stockyards conditions are, I think, satisfactory. In the newer ones, such as those at Moose Jaw and Prince Albert, you cannot expect everything to be in apple-pie order, but they are gradually improving. With respect to the investigations to which my hon. friend has referred, I must ask him to excuse me for the moment. I do not know exactly what particulars he desires. There is a live stock exchange at Winnipeg, and I understand that certain investigations were held there. I presume the hon. member refers to the buyers on those exchanges who are bonded. I believe the bond is for $10,000. The hon. members of the Progressive party will understand the situation in regard to the marketing of wheat, which is similar to this. A man ships a carload of wheat to a commission merchant who defaults, and he loses his money; and the same thing happens in the case of a carload of stock. The commission man's bond runs out, or something happens, and he defaults. A number of cases have happened where men have lost a carload of stock. This is occurring all along the line. Several remedies have been suggested. Before coming here I was in correspondence with gentlemen in various parts of western Canada on the subject. But the remedies so far proposed would create difficulties that probably would be as great as the evils they were intended to correct; in other words, the remedies were worse than the disease. In the shipment of wheat this difficulty can be met by getting as large an advance on your car as possible, and having the bond take care of the balance only; but in the shipment of live stock I understand that that is not so easy to do. I have not been a big shipper of live stock myself, but I do not think it is the practice to get advances on such shipments. It takes so large a bond to cover the business of a live stock com-

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mission man that it is a considerable burden to him, and it has not been imposed for fear lest it should increase the cost of buying. The hon. member for Victoria City (Mr. Tolmie), I have no doubt, could contribute more information in regard to this matter than I can. I know there is the same difficulty in connection with grain, but not to so large an extent. But the difficulty is there, and I have had my attention brought to it in one or two instances where the farmer had lost money as a result. Nothing has been done yet that I know of to correct the trouble.


Donald Sutherland: I am afraid the minister misunderstood my question. I was asking if any complaints had been received by the department with regard to those who were licensed to dispose of stock on the live stock markets. Carload lots are consigned to the commissioned men, in many instances the owner does not attend the market at all, and consequently a good deal of confidence must be reposed in those men.


William Richard Motherwell: Does the hon.
member mean complaints from the commission men themselves?


Donald Sutherland: No, they would not be likely to complain. I refer to complaints from the owners of live stock that the commission men may not have disposed of their stock to proper advantage. My reason for bringing this to the attention of the minister is that rumours to this effect have been in circulation, and I believe that as a result certain commission men have been very much injured. I also have information that the rumours are not correct. It is very easy to start such a rumour, and everyone knows how it will be passed, from one person to another, until it is given widespread circulation. If no such complaints have been made, I think the country should know it, and the commission men should not longer remain under the imputation of dishonesty.


William Richard Motherwell: No complaints whatever have been made with the exception of one or two from correspondents in the country, as I have already recited.


Donald Sutherland: There are also
other votes in connection with stallion clubs, representing a considerable amount. It is a new departure on the part of the department, but it has been in practice in the Old Country for some time. What portion of this sum has been given for the purpose
to clubs around in eastern Canada and in western Canada.


William Richard Motherwell: Mr. Chairman, we are kept pretty busy answering questions both here and in our office, and I think we should try to avoid duplication. This question is on the Order Paper, and we have not even come to it yet. There will be a whole lot of work involved in giving the information, and it will come down in due course. It is now nearly five o'clock, and if we keep on at this rate we are not going to conclude the session until the middle of July. It seems to me that if I give this information once, that should be sufficient. However, I am in the hands of the committee.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


Donald Sutherland: Notwithstanding
the statement just made by the minister, I think the committees are entitled to know what this vote is for. Because a certain question appears on the Order Paper I do not think that is a very good reason why the information should not be furnished. This afternoon the minister was inclined to adopt a different attitude with regard to another matter that was under discussion, raised, I believe, by the hon. member for Swift Current (Mr. Lewis) relative to an insinuation that appeared in the press this morning. The minister now advocated applying the soft pedal, saying in effect: You cannot accomplish much by using a club. When he made that statement I could not help reflecting on what happened with regard to the British cattle embargo. I think the hon. member for Swift Current was amply justified in his objection; but I think some of our provincial ministers who took such an active part in the embargo agitation overseas had not very good grounds for doing so. I do not think any government in Canada has been negligent of its duty in trying to have that embargo removed.


William Richard Motherwell: Does the hon. gentleman know of any case in which I referred to the embargo question in any offensive way? I am not responsible for the .action of provincial ministers.


Donald Sutherland: The minister stated that instead of the hon. member taking exception to the report which appeared in the Montreal Gazette, he might just as well or better have taken exception to the statements of some people nearer home, and later on, by way of justification, he went back to the elections of 1911.
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Now what happened? Every administration we have had since the embargo was imposed by the British government has endeavoured to secure its removal. A year ago the matter came up in this House on a motion introduced by an hon. member, and everything indicated that efforts were being put forth by the then Minister of Agriculture to place the matter before the British government. A member of a provincial government in western Canada, and a member of another provincial government in eastern Canada, went ever to the Old Country and took an active part in this matter, and during a by-election in Great Britain certain influences were brought to bear, with the result, I am inclined to think, that great difficulties were placed in the way of having the embargo removed. Now, it seems somewhat remarkable that one of those ministers from Alberta on his return home almost immediately afterwards took part in a provincial election in his own province, and instead of receiving the endor-sation of his people he was repudiated and turned out of office. A little later another general election came on.


The CHAIRMAN:: I would draw the hon. member's attention to the fact that his remarks are not relevant to the item under consideration.


Donald Sutherland: I am referring to the Hon. Duncan Marshall, who is engaged by the Government in connection with a matter which is involved in the item now before the committee.


William Richard Motherwell: What happened the hon. gentleman's own leader?


Donald Sutherland: I am not referring to my own leader; I am referring to a matter which is pertinent to the item we are now considering. Not only was Mr. Marshall rebuked in the provincial election, but he was also rebuked when he was again a candidate for the federal parliament, and the hon. member for Swift Current (Mr. Lewis) does not need to feel that he has suffered very much as a result of the newspaper article which has appeared. The minister says we are going to use the soft pedal now; we are going to get away from tactics of that kind. Last night when this item was before the committee I made some inquiries regarding
5 p.m. the operations of this commissioner-I hardly know how to designate him; he is engaged temporarily and cannot be considered as in the permanent service. I have a distinct recollection
[Mr. Sutherland.!
of the minister stating that Mr. Marshall was to be sent to Terra del Fuego, or Patagonia, or somewhere in the extreme end of South America, in order to develop the live stock business of this country. But when I ask for information with regard to the clubs and associations that are receiving assistance from this grant, the minister says we are taking up too much time; that the information can be furnished later if the vote is allowed to pass. The minister states that Mr. Marshall has been engaged with a view to having a new allocation made of the grant for the instruction of agriculture in this province. Last night we were told that he was engaged in immigration work down in Florida, and that as the result of one speech he made there, the people are coming from that country and advancing into-he did not say where; into western Canada, I assume. I would like to know whether the services of Mr. Marshall, who has been engaged by the minister for agricultural purposes, are to be devoted to the Department of the Interior for immigration purposes which do not come under this vote.


George Newcombe Gordon: Shall the resolution carry?


Donald Sutherland: I would like to
have some further information with regard to what the various 'provinces are receiving out of these grants for agricultural instruction. We have had a little information to-night, and you see that western Canada has been getting practically the whole of it.


William Richard Motherwell: The agricultural
instruction vote is passed.


Donald Sutherland: But the vote
covering the operations of Mr. Duncan Marshall is not passed. When he arrives in Patagonia possibly we shall have a better idea of what we are voting this money for. How manyi pure bred sires were distributed by the Department of Agriculture during the past year? I would like the information by provinces.


William Richard Motherwell: In 1921, 27 bulls were distributed in British Columbia, at a cost of $4,910. I hope that is satisfactory to my hon. friend from Victoria City (Mr. Tolmie). I think I should receive some assistance from him during this terrible ordeal; I have always stood by him in a crisis like this.


Mr. TOLMIE:: The hon. gentleman was not here last year; I was alone.

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William Richard Motherwell: That is a great
relief to me; misery likes company. But to proceed with the statistics: in Alberta, 1.04 bulls were distributed at a cost of $19,980; in Saskatchewan, 113 were distributed, at a cost of $22,090 and in Manitoba, 88, costing $15,340. Ontario seems to have been discriminated against, having received only 31, costing $5,550, while Quebec received 73, costing $11,825. This matter will have to be looked into. New Brunswick did not receive any, and only 5 went to Nova Scotia, atf a cost of $435. Here we have the province which sent to Parliament the "solid sixteen" getting only 5, as against Saskatchewan, with only one Liberal representative, getting 113. Surely there is something wrong; I do not wonder that my hon. friend asks questions. Prince Edward Island received 2, at a cost of $290. None of these animals seem to have found their way to the Yukon.


Donald Sutherland: Would the minister give us the number of stallions distributed in the different provinces?


William Richard Motherwell: No stallions were distributed.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Department of the Interior-Geodetic Survey of Canada-Investigations, reconnaissance, triangulations, precise levelling, topographical work and geodetic astronomy, etc., $325,000.
Mr. GUTHRIE:: There is just one observation I would like to make on this item. It brings up a question that has had some consideration from the House at former sessions, namely whether it would not be well to combine the surveys work and the map work of the various departments in a single department. This work is now being done by four or five different departments, and I am satisfied that there is a great duplication of effort and of expense. Quite an elaborate system is maintained in the Department of Public Works, and there is this fairly elaborate system in the Department of the Interior. Then there is also a branch of the Militia Department which maintains a very highly qualified staff of (expert engineers and surveyors. I think that in still another department there is a similar staff. I am told that in the United States all this work is being done under the War Department by the trained officers, engineers and draughtsmen of that department, and I believe the same thing could be done here with a great saving of expense, and I think probably with better results from the
point of view of uniformity than we are obtaining at the present time. The Royal Military College, which is maintained very largely at the expense of this Government, turns out annually a very capable body of engineers and scientific draughtsmen. Many of them go into the militia and their services could be made available by any department of the Government. I am satisfied that if the new minister would take that matter up and consult with his colleagues he could evolve a scheme, and bring it to Parliament for the next session, which would do away with a great deal of the duplication of these services which has been going on for thirty or forty years. I only bring the matter before the committee at the present time for the purpose of directing the attention of the minister to this work. I am satisfied there is a possibility of making great economies in this service and that better work will result for the Government.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
International Boundaries. Expenses connected with the survey and demarcation of International Boundaries, including $1,000 to J. J. McArthur as International Boundary Commissioner, $35,680.
Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: What is the nature of this work?


Hon. CHARLES STEWART (Argen-teuil, Minister of the Interior):: This
branch deals with the demarcation of the boundaries between Canada and the United States under the direction of the joint commission composed of two commissioners appointed respectively by His Majesty and the Government of United States. The work has practically been completed. The money asked for is required to compile data for the joint reports, the preparation of maps, and resurveying and the resetting of monuments in various places.


Edward Joseph Garland: It seems a large sum of money to expend for simply the compilation of data and the arrangement of monuments. However, the minister says the work is practically completed. Is it the minister's intention to continue the work this year?


Charles A. Stewart: I am informed that as soon as the work is completed the whole thing ceases. I have a detailed statement dealing with the monuments set up from the lake of the Woods to the western coast, and with the survey work on the St. Croix river, New Brunswick. Once the work is completed there

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will be no further expenditure in connection with it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Government of the Yukon Territory, $160,000.
Arthur John Lewis: Will the minister tell us why there is an increase of $30,000 in two of the items comprised in this vote?


Charles A. Stewart: In the
first item, of $65,000, there is an increase of $30,000 as compared with the Main Estimates of 1921-22. A number of changes, including the consolidation of certain positions, were contemplated when the Estimates for 1921-22 were prepared, and the vote was reduced from $70,000 to $35,000. As the changes did not take effect it was impossible to pay the expenses of administration with the sum of $35,000, and a Governor General's warrant for $25,000 additional was obtained, making a total of $60,000 for 1921-22. It may be that this last sum will not be quite sufficient to pay the expenses for that year, and the payment of some of the accounts will no doubt have to be carried into the fiscal year 192223. At any rate, the gold commissioner recommends that a vote of $65,000 be obtained. That sum is required to pay salaries, living allowances and expenses connected with travelling, insane patients, printing and stationery, advertising, etc. I may say I have gone over these and I will read them for the benefit of the committee; most of them appear reasonable.
Amount required for salaries is.. .. $21,660
Amount for living allowance	 15,900
Insane patients, expenses connected with transportation to and maintenance in the insane hospital, the Provincial Mental Hospital at New Westminster, B.C., also for maintenance in the Royal Northwest Mounted Police barracks at Dawson
and White Horse	 f4,500
Travelling expenses of outside officials to and from Dawson and in the territory	 2,000
Printing and stationery	 1,500
Expenses connected with the collection of export tax by Royal Canadian Northwest Mounted Police officers. 1,000 They receive 50 cents a day while on that special duty.
To pay commission of 10 per cent to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police officials on sums collected by them
as mining recorders, mining inspectors and Crown timber and land
agents	 1,000
To pay legal expenses not included in
Vote for	costs of litigation	 1,000
Miscellaneous:	Freight and express
charges, telegrams, telephones, postage and	unforeseen expenses	 6,440
Total	$65,000


Hugh Guthrie: The only observation
that I have to make is this, I understand the population of the Yukon has very rapidly decreased in recent years, and one would expect that the cost of government would decrease accordingly. Last year the vote was only $45,000 for all this service, and a Governor General's warrant became necessary for an additional $25,000, which would make the total amount of last year $60,000. I think I am safe in saying that there are fewer people in the territory than there were last year, btit the vote now asked for is $65,000, notwithstanding that last year we were able to get through with $60,000. I think the committee would expect the amount for the coming year to be decreased $5,000 or $10,000 rather than increased by $5,000. Of the amount, $21,000 goes for salaries and $15,000 for allowances. The balance is made up largely of grants for maintenance of institutions for the insane, and the like, to which no great exception can be taken. But surely as time goes on this vote for salaries and allowances should be decreased. I think the minister should content himself this year with what he spent last year, namely $60,000. That would look reasonable to me.


Charles A. Stewart: In all probability the objection is well taken, and it is possible that we may get along without that $5,000. If it is possible, I intend to adopt the suggestion made by some of the officials of the department, that an amalgamation of offices shall take place, and probably we can make a larger saving. But the committee will readily understand that one who has recently come into the department would hardly venture to make drastic cuts and expect to carry them out, not knowing just exactly what he might be up against in connection with this saving. The revenues are expected to be in the neighbourhood of $154,000 and we are practically within the revenue in our expenditure. I am not advancing that as a claim for the $65,000 vote by any means, because I agree with the objection taken by my hon. friend, that if an amalgamation of officials took place the cost of government could be reduced; but there is some revenue still coming out of the Yukon territory, and I have discovered a persistent demand for road construction to enable the people engaged in mining to get out the products of the mine. I hope we can present a much reduced estimate on this head next year, when I have had time to

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investigate. No more money will be spent than is absolutely necessary during the coming year.


Hugh Guthrie: I am sure the committee is glad of the assurance of the minister in that respect, and I feel sure that he will see that not a dollar more than is necessary will be spent. But the principle upon which Parliament votes money is that an estimate is made, having regard to all the circumstances, of as exact an amount as it is possible to arrive at. That additional $5,000 or $10,000 will have to be obtained by the Minister of Finance by taxing the people of Canada. If the money is not going to be required, and there is a strong probability that it will not be required, it should not be voted. There is another principle that always obtains in voting supply in this House, and I think in every Parliament, namely that we should not vote amounts in excess of actual requirements leaving it to the discretion of the minister or of his department either to spend or not to spend it as they see fit. As a rule, if the moneys are voted, they are spent. Parliament, therefore, should take care, in the first instance, that only actual requirements are covered by the vote. I sympathize with the minister. He has not been very long in his department, and I believe he will apply thoroughly economic methods in the administration of this branch of his department. The revenue is $154,000. The cost of governing the Yukon this year is going to be about $160,000. We are proposing an additional expenditure of some $20,000 on roads. We are not getting much out of it. It may be a necessary expenditure for the miners there. If they are getting all the benefits from it, it might not be unreasonable to make the expenditure on the roads.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Salaries of Dominion Lands outside officials. $536,380.
Charles A. Stewart: There
are 423 officials paid from this appropriation, as follows: 366 in the Dominion Lands outside service outside of Ottawa, with a total amount of salaries of $472,725; and 57 at Ottawa, whose duties are directly connected with the Dominion Lands Service, who are not provided for under civil service government, with a total amount of salary of $63,655-a total of $536,380. The amount standing under this heading for 1921-22 was $515,000, so that there is an increase of $21,000 for 1922-23.
66i
This is entirely due to statutory increases in salaries and increases due to reclassification.


Hugh Guthrie: Why are the 57 employees who are at Ottawa not included in the civil government list as detailed in the Estimates?


Charles A. Stewart: Their
services are part time at Ottawa and part time outside service. There is apparently still going on a reclassification and blanketing in by the Civil Service Commission, and at the moment, a number of Civil Service employees are not in the permanent service. This may, perhaps, be the fault of the Government, because we are endeavouring to get information regarding this matter, but they are regarded as temporary until they are blanketed in as permanent officials. These particular officials, I believe, would not come under the classification in any case as they are not looked upon as permanent.


Hugh Guthrie: Is there not a contingent appropriation under civil government?


Charles A. Stewart: This
covers the whole appropriation in this connection.


Hugh Guthrie: But for the whole
Department of the Interior?


Charles A. Stewart: There
are two categories-Civil Service and the outside service. This is the outside service.


Hugh Guthrie: But I understand the
57 men are at Ottawa.


Charles A. Stewart: Part
time.


Hugh Guthrie: What is the nature of
their duties?


Charles A. Stewart: They are
largely temporary employees. They are not permanent in any sense except that many of them are employed during the whole year. I say quite candidly, that I am not yet able to see the difference between a temporary employee employed by the year and one who is a permanent employee; but there is a distinction. You may find a temporary employee on the list for several years, and yet he is temporary. These officials are not civil servants in the sense that they are blanketed in in the Civil Service of the Interior Department or employed for various pur-
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poses in the lands branch of the Interior Department.


Mr. CHAPLIN:: Are they appointed
by the Civil Service Commission?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes. As far as I have been able to learn, all officials who are employed at Ottawa are under the control of the Civil Service Commission.


Hugh Guthrie: Is the increase of $21,380 an increase authorized or resulting from some ruling of the Civil Service Commission, or is it by reason of some statute? I understood the minister to say, statutory increases.


Charles A. Stewart: I presume it is the increase that is granted. Perhaps, I can explain it in this way. I find, in some of the branches of the service, that officials are retired probably at the maximum salary of the position, and when the position is filled, the appointee begins at the minimum:	Therefore, there is a
slight reduction; but all those increases until the officials reach their maximum apparently involve increased considerations annually. I do not know when the end of this reclassification will be reached; I presume it must be nearly reached by this time; but, in many instances, reclassification will probably mean that a very considerable amount must be voted for any individual civil servant affected. I understand the Civil Service Commission are taking the ground that temporary service must be temporary service according to the way that I would understand it-service for a period of three, four, five or six months

and that those who are now designated as temporary will have to be blanketed in in the permanent service.


Mr. MANION:: Do those temporary employees get the gradual increases the same as the permanent employees?


Charles A. Stewart: Temporary employees do not get statutory increases; the increases in this item apply to the permanent staff. There are about seventy employees on the survey staff, of whom about fifty are blanketed in. The remainder are not, although I find a number of these men have been employed since 1909-10. I imagine difficulties have arisen with individual cases, and they have not yet been taken in. Hence, there are many difficulties to explain; at least, I find it difficult to understand the grading and classification of the Civil Service.


James Dew Chaplin: While the minister has his deputy beside him, can he explain what the classification of a temporary employee means?


Charles A. Stewart: Supposing I put it in this way: A temporary employee in the real sense, or as I or any one else would understand the matter, would be a beginner in the service under trial.


James Dew Chaplin: And he would be there for only a certain short period?


Charles A. Stewart: I think the difficulty arises because the reclassification is not all completed. I just mentioned one of the difficulties that we are involved in at present in connection with the survey employees, who have undoubtedly been permanent as we would designate them, inasmuch as they have been in the service since 1910. Naturally, we would say that they are permanent. The real classification of a temporary employee should be one who is a beginner, who is on probation until such time as he proves efficient and is taken into the service permanently. But that is not the position these men are in; they are designated as temporary until the final blanketing-in order is put through making them permanent in character.


James Dew Chaplin: The explanation of the minister is all right; but is there anything in the printed classification defining a temporary employee?


Charles A. Stewart: I think there will be, once the reclassification of the whole service is finished. Our difficulty is that the Civil Service Commission has not yet finished with the classification of the service.


Hugh Guthrie: I think it is defined in the statute.


Arthur John Lewis: With regard to the first
item, I think the time must surely come when the lands of the Dominion will have to be settled and when there will be no necessity to employ these men and pay these salaries out year by year. Most of. our lands are already settled, or are being settled, and additional lands are not being found which these men can survey. For that reason I should like to see these amounts gradually decreased rather than increased.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

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Dominion Land Contingencies, etc., $250,000.
Robert James Manion: Will the minister please
explain this item?
, Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil) : The following is a statement of the details of this estimate:
1.	Expenses of 52 Homestead Inspectors, including purchase, renewals and repairs of travelling outfits, such as teams, buggies, harness,	etc	
$85,000	002.	Expenses of 17 Timber Inspectors, including, as in above item, purchase, renewals and repairs of travelling outfits, etc	
20,000	003.	Expenses of 3 Inspectors ofRanches	
8,500	004.	Expenses of 17 Dominion Landand Crown Timber Agencies and of the offices of the Inspectors, of Dominion Lands and Crown Timber Agencies, these expenses consist in the payment of telegrams, telephone, commission and postage, to sub-agents, clerical assistance of a temporary nature only, janitor	service, etc.. ..	40,000	005.	Travelling Expenses of outsideofficials, when away on government business, including Superintendent of Western Land Agencies, Assistant Land Agency Inspectors, Travelling Auditor, etc	
25,000	006.	Printing and Stationery. This
item is to cover the cost of printed forms used in transacting public business. The purchase and repairs of typewriters and for all stationery required in the Dominion Land
Offices and sub-Land offices. .	48,000 00
7.	Advertising re sale of Timber
Berths; also to cover accounts in connection with lands open for entry, etc.. ..	10,000	00
8.	Miscellaneous: - Freight and
express charges, Telegrams, etc., paid at Ottawa and for unforeseen expenses during 1922-23	 13,500 00

Item agreed to.
Surveys of Dominion Lands, examination of survey returns, printing of plans, etc. $600,000.


Robert James Manion: I do not know much
about this subject at all, but it puzzles me to know why these figures remain in the Estimates year after year. I am not criticising the minister by any means, but I cannot understand the continued necessity for these votes. Three years ago this estimate was $700,000. last year .$600,000, an(j year again $600,000, and I wonder whether these surveys of Dominion lands are never
going to cease. It seems that once a vote gets upon Government Estimates it has a tendency to stay there, apart altogether from the question of necessity.


Charles A. Stewart: I am
afraid I cannot give any detailed information in regard to this estimate, nor can I at the moment make any definite statement as to when this work may be regarded as nearing completion. There seems to be, even from the older provinces, a demand, which is growing more insistent, for work of this character as well as for geological work. This work has naturally been confined very largely to the western provinces and the Northwest Territories where the Dominion owns its resources, and almost the whole of this expenditure is for the purposes of the survey parties in that area. I do not know whether or not there should be a reduction, but it appears to me that, as this work is rather interwoven with that of immigration, it would be wise in the western provinces, with which I am thoroughly familiar, to confine our immigration as far as possible to the vacant lands along our existing lines of railway already surveyed. I know that even in Alberta there has been an insistent demand for the continuance of the services of the parties who periodically go into the field there for survey work; and sometimes the demand is for a larger number of men than have been engaged in previous years. I cannot say whether that work is approaching the point of completion; but if the negotiations that are now in progress with the prairie provinces were completed, naturally it would cease, almost in its entirety, and the Dominion would be relieved of a work which everyone will agree is expensive.


Robert James Manion: If it is the fact that the survey work would no longer 'be necessary in western Canada if those provinces took over their resources, will the minister explain how it is that the older provinces are asking for these surveys?


Charles A. Stewart: They are not asking for topographical surveys.


Mr. MACLAREN:: Was this $600,000 voted last year entirely expended?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes. The vote represented the expenses of the various parties, to each of which was allocated a certain sum.


Mr. CAMPBELL:: A good deal of the survey work in western Canada is, I think, unnecessary. During the last few years sur-
Sup-ply-Interior

vey parties have heen working between the Thunderhill branch of the Canadian Northern railway and the Prince Albert branch, and others in the vicinity of the part, in districts where the land would not be used for at least fifty years. I regard this as a serious waste of money which could be avoided for the present at any rate.


Charles A. Stewart: I myself have made the same complaint, but frequently, in the northern portions of the three provinces, someone goes in and locates a mineral claim which he wants to file, and the difficulty arises in regard to the location. So that we have at least to ascertain some point from which registration can take place. I agree with my hon. friend that it is a mistake to go on with indiscriminate surveying in areas that are not likely to be settled, but we have to meet the difficulty in connection with mining claims.


Milton Neil Campbell: There are many areas in which there is no evidence ,of minerals, and it seems to me that conditions are only complicated as a result of these surveys. When you survey land a long distance from the railway, someone immediately files a claim for some of that land and gets possession of it. You then have a small settlement, and immediately there comes a demand for a branch railway. This survey work should be dispensed with entirely in the present state of the country.


Charles A. Stewart: I agree with my hon. friend that it has been very expensive to the provincial governments in the past, but it is very difficult to prevent settlers going in and even squatting in these areas; in fact, it is impossible to prevent. I had some notion of recommending to Parliament that we cease granting free homesteads, but again I am met with an insistent demand that it continue. So I am in a quandary. We want people to come into Canada and settle on the land, and I confess it is very difficult to determine what to do. If squatters get in you have difficulties and demands for surveys. I think some of the work might very well be curtailed.


Mr. RYCKMAN:: This is one of those large items whose appearance in the right-hand column seems to be justification for its appearing in the left-hand column; in other words, having been voted last year, it must of necessity be voted this year. I believe the minister is as anxious as any of us in these times of stress to practise economy, and1 I should like him

to tell the committee if this is not one of the items where a sizable sum, say $50,000, could be stricken off, and the affairs of the country in this particular be still carried on satisfactorily for the ensuing * year.


Edward Joseph Garland: I very
much sympathize with the remarks of my hon. friend, but I think he would have been better advised if he had suggested cutting this particular item in two instead of lopping off only $50,000.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: I accept the amendment.


Charles A. Stewart: Of course,
I have no knowledge what the requirements of the department were in this respect, but the first request that came to me was $160,000 higher than the amount which now appears in the estimates. But I find the Department of the Interior has very wide ramifications, and I should like to have a few months in order to become acquainted with some of the work carried on by it.
I would undertake to say that areas that are not required for settlement should not be surveyed. If a definite policy were adopted in connection with immigration and land settlement, there would be no necessity for any further surveys for a considerable period. But in the meantime I might inform the committee that every dollar of this vote is allocated, and some of the survey parties are already on their way to the scene of operations; therefore,
I should very much regret having to curtail the expenditure for this year.


Hugh Guthrie: The money may be allocated, Mr. Chairman, but it is not yet expended.


Charles A. Stewart: No.


Hugh Guthrie: Would any serious injury be done to the country if for the present year we had a survey holiday? We hear of naval holidays and armament holidays, so wihy not a survey holiday ? I am inclined to think from what I have heard in this and previous discussions on the subject that the surveyed areas, particularly in the Northwest, are so vast that it will be generations before they are ever settled.
I know the policy of the last twenty or twenty-five years has been to go ahead with surveys far in advance of the requirements of settlement, but I was rather surprised when I heard to-day from my friend on the left,
I think from Prince Albert, that in the neighborhood of The Pas the surveys are at least fifty years in advance of any

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possible requirements. We hear the complaint generally that it is difficult at the present time to get money. Now here is a very substantial item of $600,000. Would any harm be done to the settlement or the progress or prosperity of the country if that item was stricken off by the minister and the survey parties not sent out till next year?


An hon. MEMBER:: None at all.


Hugh Guthrie: A $600,000 saving is a very substantial amount of money, and I am sure the news of such a reduction would be very gratefully received at the present time by my hon. friend the Minister of Finance. And I believe that no harm would be done to the country. We have surveyed lands for a population three or four times what we now have in the western provinces. I believe our surveys cover every reasonable requirement of the mining districts. It may be that some new districts will be developed where surveys will have to be made, but in my judgment if this whole item were left in abeyance and nothing spent this year on further surveys, the burden of taxation on the people would be that much lighter, and no injustice would be done to the settlement of the western country or to the progress and prosperity of the Dominion at large.


Robert James Manion: I do not suppose that any more criticism comes to the Dominion government for unnecessary surveys than comes to the provincial governments. In my own section of Ontario where the lands are in the hands of the provincial authorities, they are continually doing what to my mind looks like unsystematic and unnecessary surveying. I presume exactly the same condition obtains in the Dominion surveys, and it is not perhaps so much a criticism of my hon. friend as of his predecessors. I believe with my hon. friend from South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) and other hon. members that this is a time when some of this work might be cut down without doing any harm to the country. I know very well that the provincial surveys could be cut down a great deal every year without interfering with the progress of the province, because the authorities carry those surveys on, so far as any one in the neighbourhood can see, without laying out systematically the crown lands of the province. While perhaps it would be asking too much to cut out the item altogether, I believe that the minister himself, judging from the attitude he has taken, would probably half-heartedly agree that a good
chunk could 'be cut from this estimate without doing any harm to the Northwest, especially as hon. members from there, who naturally know much more of this question than I do, appear to be under the impression that none of this work is necessary.


Edward Joseph Garland: Under
Item 286 full provision is made further down for continuing improvement of districts already settled by surveys and inspections in connection with the administration of the Irrigation Act, etc. 'So that so far as these things are concerned-and I concur in the desirability of the appropriation for those purposes-they are provided for; but I fail to see any necessity whatever for the enormous grant asked for general survey work for the opening up of new land not already surveyed. I would move, Mr. Chairman:
That the item be cut in two; that is, be reduced by the sum of $300,000.


Milton Neil Campbell: I second the motion.


Charles A. Stewart: This is a matter that as far as I am concerned would rather seriously handicap all the arrangements that have been made. Of course, the natural answer to that is: You should not make those arrangements until you have the money. I quite recognize that. But if survey parties are to take the field, preparation must be made some considerable time ahead. I am unable to say definitely that every one of these crews is required for survey work, but if time is given for investigational work, any that are not required can very readily be dispensed with. As a matter of fact, many members of the staff have been in the employ of the Government for a considerable number of years -I was looking it up the other day; some of them since 1905-and to dismiss them summarily would hardly be a fair method of procedure. I am not arguing altogether on behalf of the staff, but rather for the utility of the survey. Now, my hon. friend from Saskatchewan spoke with a good deal of knowledge with respect to what has happened in his territory. He speaks of the territory of The Pas, In all probability the requirements of the survey in The Pas district are brought about by the necessity for survey of mineral claims, and have nothing to do with survey for settlement. As to the complaint of my hon. friend from Alberta, the survey work he speaks of, namely, the classification of the soil for settlement purposes, is not included in this vote, which is for the parties who will
i040
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take the field for topographical work only. So far as I have known in Alberta, projections of base lines are carried out by survey parties in one year, and no subdivision takes place until there is a demand for settlement. That has been the procedure, and I did not make any inquiry whether a departure from it was to be made this year. I doubt, however, that there will be any departure from it. The director of surveys allocates the work where it is being asked for or necessity calls for it. That is the information I have received for a number of years in Alberta when I have made inquiries with respect to the matter of surveys, and while I did not make any inquiry this year, I imagine that is the reason that the

At six o'clock the House resumed, and then took recess.
After Recess
The House resumed at eight o'clock.



PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 2, to incorporate British Empire Assurance Company.-Mr. Sinclair (Oxford).
Bill No. 7, respecting The Kettle Valley Railway Company.-Mr. MacKelvie.
Bill No. 11, respecting La Compagnie du Chemin de Fer de Colonisation du Nord.- Mr. Lafortune.
Bill No. 12, respecting The Interprovinial and James Bay Railway Company.-Mr. Parent.
Bill No. 30 (from the Senate), for the relief of Wentworth Barnes.-Mr. Maclean (York).
Bill No. 31 (from the Senate), for the relief of Hazel Mclnally.-Mr. Maclean (York).
Bill No. 32 (from the Senate), for the relief of Edward Lovell.-Mr. Gordon.
Bill No. 33 (from the Senate), for the relief of Elizabeth Lillian Sharpe.-Mr. Hunt.
Bill No. 34 (from the Senate), for the relief of Percival Andrew Jamieson..-Mr. Macdonald (Pictou).
Bill No. 35 (from the Senate), for the relief of Frederick Henry Gill.-Mr. Rankin.
Bill No. 36 (from the Senate), for the relief of Blanche Elizabeth Macdonell.- Mr. Clark.

Bill No. 37 (from the Senate), for the relief of Frank Charles Butt.-Mr. Sheard.
Bill No. 38 (from the Senate), for the relief of Edward Sidney John Turpin.- Mr. Gordon.
Bill No. 40 (from the Senate), for the relief of Albert Bethune Carley.-Mr. Ryckman.
Bill No. 41 (from the Senate), for the relief of Ernest Zufelt.-Mr. Sheard.
Bill No. 42 (from the Senate), for the relief of Harry Johns Leach.-Mr. Sheard.
Bill No. 43 (from the Senate), for the relief of Nellie Berry.-Mr. Church.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 44, to incorporate The General Missionary Society of the German Baptist Churches of North America.-Mr. Hudson.
Bill No. 48, respecting Aberdeen Fire Insurance Company.-Mr. Manion.
Bill No. 49, respecting Armour Life Insurance Company..-Mr. Manion.
Bill No. 50, to incorporate The Sisters of Saint Mary of Namur.-Mr. Demers.
[Stage Direction]
The House again in Committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
Charles A. Stewart: At six o'clock I was endeavouring to bring to the attention of the committee the work of the Surveys Branch. The cost of surveys is detailed as follows:
1	Controller of Survey	$	3,6602	Assistant Controllers	
5,1102 Inspectors of Survey	
6,0002 Interprovincial Boundary Commissioners (1/3 share)	
3,00037 Survey Engineers	
121,5451 Topographical Engineer	
3,28526 Assistant Survey Engineers.. ..	66,43016 Articled Pupils, Levellers and Instrument Men	
12,800

In order to put before the committee the work that is being carried on I will give a statement as to where it is done. The expenditure by the controller, the assistant controllers, and' one inspector, amounts to $14,000; that of two parties k>f survey of block outlines and initial meridians, $14,000; or a total of $28,000. I do not see how this particular service could be dispensed with, because from the meridian block survey the subdivision eventually takes place. These lines must be projected. There is an expenditure on two parties in the Mackenzie river district, in the Great Slave district, and one>
party

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northwest of The Pas, on controlled traverses and settlement surveys, the figures being, respectively, $18,000, $15,000 and $8,000.
As regards the Mackenzie river survey, I have personal knowledge of the requirements in that district, where it will be necessary to send a party. There are a number of settlements which have been asking for surveys, for settlement and not for agricultural purposes; and the surveys are necessary, too, for the allocation of the oil leases and also in view of the conditions that prevail generally in the district.


Mr. GOULD:: In regard to the Mackenzie river survey, I understand that parties have already started on that expedition and that possibly two years' work will be entailed. The members of the party will, I believe, be absent from the city throughout that time. Is that correct?


Charles A. Stewart: So far no party has remained in the north during the winter and it is doubtful whether this party will do so. The expenditure in connection with one party of subdivision surveys of Alberta and the Peace river block is largely entailed on account of the oil development and the settlement that is going on in the Peace river block of the Dominion lands. Some of the Alberta members will know what the requirements there are. Then there is an expenditure of $8,000 for four parties on resurveys, retracement surveys, and miscellaneous surveys in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, and for three parties at $3,500 each, making a total of $18,500. That is general work that will have to be undertaken by some one, and eventually, if the resources go to the provinces, will be paid for by the (provinces themselves. The critics of this particular work will agree that it is necessary, and it has all been asked for. There is an expenditure on four parties on examination of land for general settlement, at $5,000 per party. That is investigation work carried on by the engineers for the classification of soils in lands not already settled. In connection with this matter, the information that the Immigration Department gets from intending settlers from the United States is that 90 per cent of the people who decide to come to western Canada come for the purpose of locating on free land. That, apparently, is the inducement that brings them to western Canada, and1 it is one of
the reasons why, this year at all events, I did not recommend to Parliament the cutting out of the free homesteads and offering for sale all lands in the public domain. I am anxious that that should be done, but I realize the necessity for bringing people to the western plains. Now, I am not suggesting that they go on the Crown lands; indeed, I do not believe that a very large percentage will go on those lands when they thoroughly understand the conditions, but that they will rather purchase lands that are convenient to railways, churches and schools. But, needless to say, a free homestead appears to be the lure that draws people to western Canada, and the classification of these lands is of immense value. I was amazed to find how much it meant in connection with soldiers' settlement, and how much has been saved in this connection, although it cost money to do this work.


Mr. McTAGGART:: Is it true that certain areas in the western provinces have been withdrawn from homestead entry at the present time?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, for soldiers' settlement purposes I am told.


Neil Haman McTaggart: For how long, and what is the area withdrawn?


Charles A. Stewart: I am told that the period of withdrawal is indefinite, and probably will last only so long as the soldiers' settlement requirements continue. But, knowing Alberta as I do, I think I am safe in saying that there is very little crown land of first class, or even of second class character within fifteen miles of a railway.


Neil Haman McTaggart: The people in the southwestern part of Saskatchewan whom I have the honour to represent have been led to believe that crown lands in that district were withdrawn from homestead entry because new regulations were to be brought down. Can the minister give us any information in regard to that?


Charles A. Stewart: That is scarcely correct. Representations have been made to the department by settlers who are desirous of moving, and who have already enjoyed the privilege of securing a homestead, to re-enter for another homestead in the northern part of the province. That is quite agreeable to the department, and, in Saskatchewan, can be arranged through the provincial Department of Agriculture, which takes upon itself the re-

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sponsibility of recommending any individual for re-entry.


Neil Haman McTaggart: How large is this
area ?


Charles A. Stewart: No area is laid out for that purpose. Choice would have to be made by the individual himself of any crown lands.


Mr. SALES:: What becomes of the first entry?


Charles A. Stewart: That is just the reason why the department does . not want to take any responsibility. The indebtedness that undoubtedly will have accrued against the property will have to be looked after by the provincial authorities, and they will have to take the responsibility of recommending to the federal authorities any individual who is to receive that privilege.


Neil Haman McTaggart: Possibly the minister misunderstood my last question. I wish to know particularly what are the boundaries of the area which has been withdrawn from homestead entry?


Charles A. Stewart: This was an arrangement made by the previous government, and I am told it is an area fifteen miles wide along all existing railways.


Arthur Meighen: Do I understand the minister to say that he has perfected arrangements whereby homesteaders within the province may have second homesteads upon the recommendation of the provincial Department of Agriculture; or is that only within certain areas?


Charles A. Stewart: No, this matter has not been brought to a definite conclusion yet, but that is the proposal upon which we are now working. No specific area is set apart for that particular purpose. None need be set apart, because one will readily understand that although at first sight it may appear an easy matter to arrange, yet as one looks into it, it becomes somewhat complicated and difficult, as in most cases the applicant for re-entry has assumed financial obligations in respect to his original entry, which renders the transfer very difficult to complete. But if the provincial authorities, who understand the local situation, in their wisdom make the recommendation that the applicant be given a second chance, then we are prepared to get the necessary authority to meet such a situation.


Arthur Meighen: I fully appreciate that the question is surrounded with difficulties, because I have tried lately to think out some satisfactory solution. I hope the minister does not contemplate adopting a policy whereby any one having a homestead in these provinces may, if he secures the approval of the local government, have two homesteads, or abandon his first and get a second homestead, as I am afraid it would be an extension of the patronage system beyond the aspirations of even the most ambitious. I am aware of the difficulties to be encountered, in that homesteaders in these dry areas-and it is the dry areas that the minister must be directing his attention to-are in municipalities to which they owe taxes for schools and other local works, and the municipalities depend upon the contributions of these homesteaders just as they depend upon the contributions of their neighbours, and as a consequence difficulties are encountered which the municipalities and the provincial government will have to arrange between themselves. But let me warn the minister that the responsibility is on his own department, and that the final determination as to whether a second homestead is to be granted or not must rest there. It may be that he can work out a plan whereby responsibility as to local indebtedness will be assumed by the provincial authorities.


Charles A. Stewart: There is no intention of the federal authorities taking that responsibility.


Arthur Meighen: It may be the federal authorities cannot escape some share of responsibility even there. But after the provincial government has given its decision on that point, that must not end the matter; the minister himself must exercise supervision some way as to who are to get second homesteads and who are not. There must be some principle-there must indeed be regulations submitted to this House for parliamentary approval. Above all things, let it not become a matter merely for the imprimatur of provincial governments as to when second homesteads shall be given. And I would say as well, that there necessarily will have to be some geographical limitations in connection with the application of any policy to this subject.


Charles A. Stewart: I do not intend, Mr. Chairman, to get into a discussion of the difficulties of southern Saskatchewan or southern Alberta, but I quite agree with the right hon. gentleman that

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it is a matter that will have to he undertaken by the respective governments. I think it is generally conceded that if the settlers who now find themselves upon those areas, whether they be large or small, will either have to move of their own volition or be assisted to move to other districts, and that the areas deserted will in due time be turned back to grazing purposes. I see innumerable difficulties, but I do not see very much difficulty with respect to the indebtedness. The individual, however, who spends his all, who has put in years of hard work, will have to sustain the loss of all that he has put in there, plus his work, and it seems to me that if he is willing to continue his residence in the province it would be good business for the provincial government, aided by the federal authority, to get that man upon an area of land where he can carry on agriculture successfully. I am willing, so far and so long as the federal authorities retain control of the crown lands, to recommend that portions of them be used for the purpose of re-establishing these men and keeping them within the provinces in which they have settled. However, we are getting away from the subject under * discussion.


Arthur Meighen: Under those circumstances I would advise the minister to concentrate on the solution of
9 p.m. the question, because from the meaningless statement made by the Prime Minister this afternoon I have no very lively anticipation that he or his successor will not be responsible for the administration of the crown lands for a long time to come.


Charles A. Stewart: Well,
there is nothing like being optimistic about it. We were dealing with the expenditure of four parties on examination of lands for general settlement at $5,000 each. Then, there is expenditure of two parties on the survey of water areas on the old subdivisions at $4,000 each-the water areas are constantly receding and giving occasion to controversy. Then, there is the expenditure of two parties on topographical surveys of the Calgary sectional sheet and Cypress Hills Forest Reserve, one party at $4,000 and one party at $5,500. A number of settlers are going into the Cypress Hills, and when I took office I found there was a controversy proceeding there with regard to men who had squatted on some of these areas; it will be necessary to send a survey party there this summer. There is also the expenditure of one party on the
survey of group and other lots; expenditure of five parties on topographical survey in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta at $6,000 per party; expenditure of two parties on subdivision surveys on the railway belt, British Columbia, $4,000 each. I had a rather warm time to-day with a delegation from British Columbia with respect to this matter. One of the members from British Columbia and some of the officials of the department were not in entire agreement with regard to the methods employed there, and it will be necessary to have someone in that railway belt in connection with this work. There is also the expenditure of four parties on running lines or levels, one-third share of the expenditure hy the Alberta, British Columbia and Provincial Boundary Commission. The government of Alberta have for a considerable number of years been paying for the defining of the boundary line from the international boundary northward. I imagine the work should soon be completed. There is expenditure on surveys of timber berths, and surveys not otherwise provided for, $20,000. That, briefly, is the report, outside of the topographical mapping and the various items that go to make up the balance of this amount. I do not know just where I could cut this down to the extent of one-half. I am convinced that the amount could be reduced another year, but I do think that men who have been in the service of the Government for ten or fifteen years are entitled to at least a year's notice in order that they may look for other employment. Some of these parties are on the way; some partly and some fully equipped for the work they are to carry on this season.


Hugh Guthrie: What is the total for topographical surveys in the three western provinces?


Charles A. Stewart: 


Hugh Guthrie: I would be inclined to doubt the wisdom of that expenditure. The ordinary topographical survey is made for special purposes, usually for military purposes. The Militia Department has for years been conducting a topographical survey of Canada; every year, this year included, there is an amount to provide for that work. A topographical survey shows every hillock, pond, ditch, wall, fence, tree-stump. It is really for military purposes, and what we want it for throughout, western Canada, in addition to the work that has been carried on for the last twenty-five or thirty years by the Militia Depart-

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ment, I do not know. To my mind, this proposed expenditure of $30,000 is waste money. No doubt the expenditure has been made annually for years back, but it has been emphasized in the House that this is a time to call a halt in unnecessary expenditures. Here is an opportunity to save $30,000 on a single item, and I would ask the minister to consider a reduction of his estimates to that extent at least, and the cessation of the topographical surveys for a few years.


Charles A. Stewart: If the mover of the amendment is agreeable, I am willing to cut the whole estimate by $30,000, but I would not like to apply the reduction to any specific vote.


Edward Joseph Garland: Although I may frankly say that I am not altogether satisfied with the minister's explanation, I feel that he is not responsible for the present conditions. I think we can be assured of the minister's good intentions and that next year will witness a substantial reduction in this vote. I would therefore be quite willing to accept his suggestion that the amendment be withdrawn, and another amendment substituted providing for a reduction of $30,000. I would, however, offer one suggestion to the minister in connection with che Mackenzie, Peace river, and all the other oil schemes: If a few men are to go out into any of these districts and plot out some oil leases, or whatever they call them, and then it becomes necessary to send out a survey party to map them out, these men should pay the expenses of the survey instead of the department.


Charles A. Stewart: So far as regards making the lessees pay for the surveys the department have fairly stringent regulations with respect to the payment of royalties on the product when it is found. If an individual goes-in and spends thousands of dollars on development work, as many of them do, whereas the Government has spent no money on such work but charges a fee for the lease and imposes a stiff tax on the product when found-with which I am heartily in accord-I think we will all agree that this particular industry is being taxed fairly heavily. While I am in thorough agreement with that policy, I do think that in the initial stages we should render all the assistance we can for investigational and development work, and, when the product is found, take a fair share for the State out of the production.


Arthur Meighen: How much of the $600,000 was actually spent last year?


Charles A. Stewart: I am informed it was all spent last year but I eannot vouch for the statement.


Arthur Meighen: I would not think myself it was very far out. I am sorry that the enthusiasm of my hon. friend from Bow River (Mr. Garland) for retrenchment was so short lived. I do not know what the transformation is that has taken place since six o'clock but I have still some enthusiasm of my own left. Now the expenditure on surveys some three years ago necessarily increased. Why)? It had ranged around $400,000 and $500,000 per year. It increased 'because of the necessities of the soldier settlement survey. Large amounts were required to take care of surveys that were demanded by reason of the soldier settlement extension work that took place in the year 1919-20, particularly in the year 1919. Last year $100,000 was deducted. It would be because that work was contracted; and going over the estimates with Dr. Deville we arranged for the gathering together of certain surveys under one head and we were able to reduce by $100,000. Now in every respect of policy that counts, every policy that is vital, the Government have paid us the flattery of imitating us exactly save only in the process bf retrenching on expenditure. In that they do not seem to be able to follow the good example that we set. Last year $100,000 was taken off in that process. Why can we not do it this year? I have not the least doubt that the contraction of soldiers' settlement work is much more this year than it was -last. Furthermore, I cannot remember in detail but there was certain work that we had to do in conjunction with provincial governments -I think the governments of Ontario and Manitoba. We bore, I think, one-third of the cost of some survey work in Manitoba and also some in the province of British Columbia. That work, I think, is over and therefore I know of no reason at all why there should not be this year a reduction of $100,000. In this connection I feel that I ought to say this: The head of this branch of the work of the Interior Department, Dr. Deville, is not only a man of conspicuous capacity, but he is a man who- will co-operate with the minister to the full in securing reduction of expenditure if the minister shows a desire to that end. If there is one officer who is ready to co-operate with him more enthusiastically than another it

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happens to be the head of the branch who recommends to the minister expenditures under this head. Not only is Dr. Deville a competent official but I think he is one of the very few examples-if not the only one -where the undoubted and admitted head of his profession in this Dominion is, in so far as his profession is concerned, at the head of the service. I do not think there is any one in the Dominion who compares with Dr. Deville in his own profession, and it is fortunate we have him in our employ. I am sure if the minister goes over these estimates with Dr. Deville with this end in view he will be able to co-operate with him, and he can then come back to this committee quite readily and agree to a total expenditure of $500,000 for this service.


Charles A. Stewart: Dr. Deville submitted an estimate of $760,000 this year. I am very glad indeed to hear the remarks of my hon. friend eulogizing Dr. Deville and his work because he has already cut the estimate of last year for the simple reason-and I think that reason should be apparent-that we were anxious, as individuals who had no information, that the officials of this department should be able at least to get along with the appropriation of last year instead of asking for an increase. Therefore, Dr. Deville has already cut this appropriation by $160,000. Now I am not able to argue-


Arthur Meighen: But he increased it.


Charles A. Stewart: -as to all he had in mind. I am referring the hon. gentleman to what he has just said in praise of this official. Naturally, if all the things he has said of Dr. Deville are true, he is an official who must realize his responsibility when submitting his estimates to the minister; and if he has already cut $160,000 I think it is only fair to say that he has made an honest endeavour to get his estimate to the point where he would be able to render the service that he has been asked for from various parts of Canada. Now possibly Dr. Deville could get along-undoubtedly he could if he had toon $300,000. There can be no question about that; and unless I am able to ascertain there is a very serious need, when I become more fully acquainted with this department-more fully acquainted with the surveys branch of the department

there can be a very substantial reduction made in the cost of surveys. I cannot agree with the hon. member however that all the added cost came about on account of the surveys necessary for soldier
settlement because a very large proportion of the soldier settlement-a very large proportion in the province of Alberta- was made upon the crown lands. There was a fair amount it is true but nothing that would indicate the necessity for an inerease from $400,000 to $600,000 of survey work. Therefore I offer to accept the suggestion which has been made for a reduction but I am not prepared to accept any greater reduction.


Mr.   CHAIRMAN@: Does the hon. member from Bow river desire to reduce the amount in the amendment to $30,000?


Edward Joseph Garland: I understand the minister has himself stated his willingness to cut his estimate by $30,000, and I think I might withdraw the motion altogether on that understanding.


George Newcombe Gordon: Is it the pleasure of the committee that the amendment be withdrawn?


Hugh Guthrie: What does the minister say?


Charles A. Stewart: I move to reduce the total estimate by $30,000.


Arthur Meighen: The minister does not appreciate the position. Dr. Deville comes to him with his estimates. Last year's was $600,000 reduced from $700,000 the year before. He comes with $760,000. This represents the surveys Dr. Deville has been asked to perform. I would not dispute that probably Dr. Deville is right, and that in time those surveys must be performed, and it was his duty to come to the minister and ask for sufficient money to have them performed. But that does not say that we must push into these territories this year. He had added $160,000 before 'he took anything off. Having added $160,000, he deducts that amount. All the minister has to do is to say to Dr. Deville "We want to make an equal reduction with the year before", and he should be able to do it, because the expenses of surveys this year are not as much as the expenses last year. He knows that the expenses of equipment and of surveys are not as large this year. Things have gone down. He can get the same amount of work done with less money than last year. There should be no difficulty in making a reduction equal to last year's reduction, and, unless he does that, he makes no substantial reduction. Why can he not come down in the estimate? Even then, the estimate is higher than it ever was before the necessities of the soldiers' settlement came in. Certainly, all the sol-
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diers did not go on Dominion land. If they had done so, we would have required one million and a half for the surveys. But there were several applications for Dominion lands requiring substantial expense for surveys, and this was not the only thing. There were several other things in relation to obligations which had been entered into with provinces in regard to boundary surveys.


Charles A. Stewart: They are still in existence.


Arthur Meighen: I think they are completed.


Charles A. Stewart: No.


Arthur Meighen: Is not the one completed in British Columbia?


Charles A. Stewart: No, there are still some surveys not completed.


Arthur Meighen: I do not think there is much to do.


Charles A. Stewart: But they are still there.


Arthur Meighen: The international boundary surveys are not in this book. Anyway, there is very little to do in the way of boundary surveys and practically nothing in the way of soldiers settlement and there is really no reason why there should not be as much deduction this year as last year.


George Newcombe Gordon: The amendment is carried.


Arthur Meighen: I understood the hon. gentleman withdrew his amendment altogether.


Charles A. Stewart: I made
the suggestion to my hon. friend (Garland Bow River) and he said he would withdraw it.


Arthur Meighen: Then the amendment that is carried is the one moved by the minister?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Mr. GARDINER:: In regard to the question as to where these oil leases are being located, I was pleased to hear the minister say that some very severe regulations were in force. I hope the minister will take into consideration the possibility of eliminating speculation in oil leases. As the hon. gentleman has been living in Edmonton for some years past, he knows very well the great hardships, that are being suffered because of speculation in
TMr. Meighen.]
oil leases, and I hope he will take that matter into consideration when he is going over this regulation.
Item as amended, agreed to.
Protection of timber in Manitoba, (Saskatchewan, Alberta, the N.W.T. and the Railway belt in B.C., Tree culture in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, and inspection and management of forest reserves, $1,000,000.


Mr. STEVENS:: I would like to ask the minister what steps are being taken in connection with this work, and, in doing so, I take this opportunity of bringing to his attention, and to the attention of the House, the serious condition developing in Canada with the rapid depletion of our forests reserves-a condition which I think is really becoming alarming. Of course, a part of what I refer to and, which I have in mind, is not wholly under the jurisdiction of the minister, but in the railway belt of British Columbia the conditions to which I refer obtain as well-that is through waste in methods of lumbering, through forest fires and through the depredations of insects of one kind and another. This deforestation or denuding of our lands and forests is, I think, one of the greatest problems facing this Dominion to-day. It is the same thing in the maritime provinces, and the northern and other parts of Quebec, northern Ontario, and it is becoming serious, even in the province of British Columbia, which has been looked upon as having very large areas of primitive timber. I would like to ask the minister if there is in his mind, or in the purview of the Government, for the immediate future, the consideration of reforestation and of more care of existing forests. I hesitate to make these observations, because under these conditions, perhaps one ought to be prepared to substantiate his remarks with data, but I have not the data under my hand at the moment. Perhaps this is a suitable opportunity for the minister to tell the committee just what steps are being taken. I think it might be beneficial.


Charles A. Stewart: 
Henry Herbert Stevens: That is all in the
prairie provinces.


Charles A. Stewart: Yes,
practically all of it. There is not any doubt that steps should be taken in a more adequate way to preserve our forests. I have some knowledge of this in my own province, from the devastation by fire in our spruce timbered areas. One can realize what a terrific amount of damage fire can do in a very short period. I know considerable criticism has been offered with respect to fire ranging, and last year the fire patrol at High river-that is the aerial patrol-located 57 fires. I have not the report with me, but I think the report I have at the office states that in a short season they were able to locate fifty-seven fires. I am somewhat anxious that that should be continued, because I think millions of dollars are lost annually by forest fires, and some more adequate steps should be taken to protect our forest areas. I do not believe it is necessary, in many parts of Canada, to replant, because I think the natural growth, if. fire prevention is undertaken, will take care of reforestation. But we have allowed our timber areas to be reduced almost to the danger point, and it will be wise on the part of the Government to take whatever steps seem to be necessary for the prevention of fire, and the reforestation of many areas in Canada that are unfitted for any other purpose. I expect to make a personal investigation as well as to get all the information I can on this matter, and, perhaps, on another occasion I may ask for an increased grant.
The aerial patrol is very expensive, and yet, after all, perhaps, it is not so expensive as it appears to be at first sight, inasmuch as it covers so much more territory than can be done by a man on horseback or on foot, and can locate fires at a time when it is much easier to control and extinguish them than when they have gathered considerable headway and done considerable damage.


Hugh Guthrie: I am glad to hear the
minister say a good word about the air patrol. I had the honour, last year and the year before, of presenting to this House the estimates in respect of the Canadian Air Service, and I endeavoured, in my humble way, to emphasize the great usefulness of the air service as regards forest patrol. I regret, at that time, my views did not meet with ready approval from the Opposition benches, and I am glad, indeed, to hear the minister say tonight that, in his judgment, the air service, as a means of fire control, is a particularly good service and that although expensive at first glance, upon examination, it need not be so expensive on account of the great extent of territory which the air patrol covers. I believe, that last year, prior to Christmas, over fifty incipent fires were discovered by that part of the air service located at High River. The air service has a great opportunity to discover fires; and when fire is discovered in its incipient stages, it can be very easily dealt with; whereas, if a day elapses or even a few hours elapse before it is discovered, it may become an uncontrollable force and tremendous destruction of property may ensue. I sincerely hope that the Government, in view of the statement of the minister, will see to it [that the air service of this country is continued upon a proper basis, in order that it may be utilized for the purposes for which it has been utilized during the past two or three years, in the protection of. the forests of this country. I know it was argued, last session and the session before, that the Dominion government should not take part in this work; that it was essentially a provincial work, and that the provinces, if they wanted to protect their timber, should protect it at their own expense. There are, however, in this Dominion, forests of which the timber belongs to this Government. Surely it is the duty of this country to protect that timber, and the most efficient way of discovering fire is by means of the air service. I am afraid the estimates for the air

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service for the present year do not contemplate very much work of this kind. So far as I can gather, those estimates are rather directed towards military service in connection with the air service of Canada. Essentially, it is a military force, and probably, under present day conditions, no military force can exist or should be allowed to exist without a suitable air force. But there is the other side to the question; there is the civil aviation side and that is the side which should appeal to the House, perhaps more than the military side. Something should be in the Estimates to preserve that (force for the purpose ;of looking after our forests, for the discovering of fire and for preserving a large amount of this country's wealth which, at any time, may be devoured by flame.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Might I suggest to the minister a method of fire detection that has been used in the maritime provinces for the last two or three years? It is possible it may not apply so readily to the prairie provinces. The New Brunswick government has sought out the highest mountains in that province; it has erected on them towers or shelters for the look-out men [DOT] who are stationed there, and these shelters are connected by field telephones with headquarters or with the local telephone line, so that the men can get connection with headquarters. In this way they are able to detect fire at a great distance because, from the high peaks, one is able to get a survey of a large stretch of territory. This method of fire detection is very inexpensive; whereas the air service for fire protection, while it is very efficient, is very expensive. Our provincial government uses the aerial method as well, but in a very limited degree, on account of the fact that look-outs, as they are called, have been established pretty generally throughout the province on those high mountains. I just call this to the attention of the minister, because I feel, in this way, a small expenditure gives great results.


Robert James Manion: Does the minister happen to have under his hand at the moment the percentage of timber and of pulpwood in the Dominion which is under the control of the Dominion government and the percentage which is under the control of the provincial governments.


Charles A. Stewart: I have not the figures with me, but I think I can get them.


Robert James Manion: The reason I asked the question is that I should like to ask another question bearing upon this matter. I suppose the minister has been receiving copies of circulars which have been distributed by various people who are deeply interested in the forests of this country. In some of the circulars sent out by men who, one would conclude, are very well posted on the question, serious statements are made as to the condition of the forests of this country. As the hon. member for Centre Vancouver (Mr. Stevens) has said, if the statement in regard to the rapid depletion of our forests can be sustained, the condition is certainly a serious one for this country. In view of those statements, is the minister's department, looking into this question and taking into consideration the idea of dealing with those statements, and, if they are correct, of bringing about legislation to carry out the suggestions put forward in those circulars?


Edward Joseph Garland: Is it intended to discontinue the aerial patrol service in southern Alberta, or to do away with the High River station?


Charles A. Stewart: That does not come under the control of the Department of the Interior, but I can say frankly that the department will be glad to avail itself of the services of that patrol. No doubt that matter will come up for discussion when the estimates for that particular service are being considered.


Edward Joseph Garland: I understood that this matter was under the Department of the Interior, and I also understood that the minister had secured some permanent buildings in High River for this service.


Charles A. Stewart: It was never under the control of the Interior Department but under the Air Board, up to last year at least.


Arthur Meighen: And Dr. Deville, of the department, was on the Air Board.


Robert James Manion: Has the minister any information on the question I asked a moment ago?


Charles A. Stewart: Fifteen per cent of the total area is under the control of the federal government, and that area is found in British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba.

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Robert James Manion: What information has the minister on the other question regarding the circulars, and the seriousness of the situation referred to?


Charles A. Stewart: The officials of the department are aware of the circulars having been issued, and all efforts of the department are directed towards the preservation of the forests. Everything that is done has that end in view.


Robert James Manion: Do the officials regard these circulars as exaggerating, or rather representing, the condition that actually exists?


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Before the minister answers, I may say that I know the writer of one of these circulars, and he is willing to back his theory with his own money. I refer to Mr. Frank J. Barnjum.


Robert James Manion: That is the man I refer to.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: He has offered cash prizes to individuals in the maritime provinces, and also in Quebec and Manitoba, for the best area of reforested land.


Robert James Manion: Does my hon. friend know of the serious statements that have been made in regard to the conditions that exist?


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I will come to that. This man has also offered prizes to individuals for any area of young spruce and fir trees, but especially spruce, planted to the satisfaction of the forestry officers. He is putting up his personal funds to carry on this work, so that he is quite earnest about it. With regard to the destruction of forests by the spruce bud moth, I am only too sorry to say that I know what has been said to be absolutely true. It is estimated that 60 per cent of the spruce in New Brunswick has been killed in the last three or four or five years toy this moth. I am glad to know that the evil is diminishing, and like other pests it may suffer a natural extinction. Otherwise, I feel that any action the Government or private individuals may take in the way off reforestation will be of no avail unless something is done to combat the ravages of this insect. I do not know whether the federal department has taken any action in this matter in the nature of research work. I asked the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Motherwell), one evening when his estimates were before the House, what was being done, and he replied that they were
using the aerial service to locate the killed areas so that they might direct the lumbermen just where to cut, in order to save the timber before it was too far gone. If the timber is cut within one or two years of its being affected it is still good, but after three or four years it is utterly useless, either as lumber or pulp. I thought at the time, although I did not express the opinion, that it is rather futile merely to give locations to the lumbermen. Having lumbered somewhat myself, I know that every lumberman has his own cruisers on the various grounds to determine where to cut, and where and to what extent there has been any damage. I would rather see a department of the federal government devote its money and energy to finding, if possible, a remedy for this evil, because some means ought to be found of combating the ravages of these insects. I do not know whether the minister's department has any data on the subject, but he can readily realize what a serious menace these insects are. Any large area of forest infected by flies, for instance, which migrate from one locality to another, is soon in danger of destruction. These flies attack the very tops of the trees, which have the appearance of having been singed by fire, and after a while the injury gradually works down until the trees are entirely destroyed. Perhaps the minister may have some information as to what research work, if any, has been done to ascertain the extent of the activities of those provinces that own their timber. I understood from the Minister of Agriculture that his department was carrying on some such work. Work of this kind, I think, should ibe undertaken by one department of the Government. The Department of Agriculture does something, while the Interior Department carries on independent activities, and thus there is likely to be overlapping. This is a serious question and the minister might say what the policy of the Government is.


Charles A. Stewart: The
work is carried out in conjunction with the Department of Agriculture, whose entomologists make a study of insect pests. In British Columbia, where the bark beetle seems to be ravaging the forests, work is being done in conjunction with the Department of Agriculture, the provincial authorities, and the Forestry branch, towards the extermination of all insects. I agree with the hon. member that overlapping should be avoided as far as possible, and that one department should un-

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dertake the responsibility of prosecuting this particular work. It is quite obvious that these insects are destructive to forest life. I have no personal information on the subject, and I did not know that the forests in my own province were being attacked by insects.


Robert James Manion: What information is
there in regard to the authenticity of the statements to which I have already drawn attention?


Charles A. Stewart: There is no definite information, but the officials of the department think that probably the statements are not overdrawn.


Mr. COOTE:: I might return to the subject of the aerial patrol at High river. This is an important matter, which, i understand, comes under the Department of the Interior. It is possible that the service is furnished by the Air Board. I am not very familiar with the details, but I want to impress on the Minister of the Interior, and perhaps more forcibly upon the committee, the importance of the work at that particular station. They patrol the forest reserve, in, I think, the Clearwater, the Bow river and the Crow's Nest districts. The Crow's Nest and Bow river areas are particularly in need of this patrol, for irrigation projects in southern Alberta are already under way which will take practically all the available waters from the rivers in that territory, and the head waters of those rivers are all located in the forest reserves. Now, if those forest areas are allowed to be burnt over, it is questionable whether the rivers will then supply sufficient water at the proper season of the year for irrigation purposes, and the Government has already invested considerable money in surveys for these irrigation projects. For that reason I would impress upon the committee the necessity of continuing the aerial forest patrol at High River station. Last yeqr the service located fifty-one fires, which were all extinguished without doing any considerable damage, with the exception of one fire which started in British Columbia and had gained headway before it was visible to the patrol. In case this is not under the minister's department, and not included in the estimates under discussion, I would specially plead with him that he use his influence with the Air Board to see that the service at this particular station is not discontinued, because it serves a dual purpose in the preserva-
tion of the timber and of the water supply for the irrigation system in southern Alberta.


Charles A. Stewart: The Forestry branch value very much the work done by the air service in the location of forest fires, and there can be no doubt about the advantage and utility of employing the Air Force for this particular work, although perhaps it was not primarily organized for that purpose. It becomes increasingly apparent that drastic measures will have to be adopted to prevent destruction by fire alone, without taking into consideration destruction by insect pests. I think it will be generally admitted that fire is the most destructive agency we have to contend with in the preservation of our timber resources, and every effort should be made to check forest fires.


Mr. WARNER:: I visited the department that is handling our forest fire patrol by air service, and I was assured that there was no intention of discontinuing the patrol at High river. I was informed, however, that the estimates for this service having been reduced, they would have to curtail the patrol more or less. I was glad to observe that those in charge fully understand the necessity of this service not only to protect the value of the timber but by keeping the live timber on the eastern slopes to preserve the rainfall and snow, as the conservation of this moisture materially affects all the Country lying to the east of the foothills, as well as being of vital importance to the successful operation of the irrigation projects referred to by my hon. friend from Souris (Mr. Steeds-man). Any one who has studied that district understands very well the benefits accruing from the retention of the air service. The service has been a little expensive, but the departmental officials admit that the expense will be lowered very much in future compared with the amount of work that can be done.


George Gibson Coote: The minister has told us that tree cultivation is carried on to a small extent in several of the forest reserves. Yesterday and to-day we were told in discussing the agricultural estimates that to make agriculture permanent in some of the older settlements of the prairie provinces it was necessary to go into mixed farming. That is quite true, but there is something here that is of as great importance to agriculture in those areas as mixed farming, and that is the cultivation of trees. Has the minister

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taken into consideration the advisability of demonstrating, not in the forest reserves, but out on the open prairie, what can be done in tree planting, and so encouraging the farmers to plant trees, because I am quite sure that in that direction lies the salvation of those areas to a great extent? It might be worth while for the department to start a plantation, to be extended from time to time, that would act as a shelter belt, and where the settlers might go for the purpose of securing young trees for use on their farms.


Charles A. Stewart: That
work has been carried on in all the years that I have been in the Northwest. Trees are supplied to farmers for planting on prairie farms in the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta. The species distributed are mainly Manitoba maple, elm, ash, cottonwood, Russian poplar, and willow. Some spruce, tamarack and pine are also distributed for which a small fee is charged. The reports of the inspectors show that these plantations have a high averagfe ,of success. There are two nurseries for the purpose. One was established at Indian Head in 1903 and one at Sutherland in 1912. The increased demand for trees made necessary the increase of accommodation for furnishing the supply. The new nursery is now supplying trees for distribution and this supply is largely increasing as the nursery develops. The number of trees distributed in 1921 was 4,083,975 to 3,603 applicants. The average number of trees sent to each applicant was 1,092.


George Gibson Coote: I am quite aware that this work has been carried on, but the minister has possibly not quite grasped what I was driving at in regard to those plantations out on the bald prairies. What I suggest, and what in my humble opinion would be of very great value to the settlers there, would be a demonstration on those drought-stricken areas of what can actually be done. These settlers are in such condition financially that it is almost impossible for them to experiment in tree planting, and if any area could be set aside there for demonstration of what could be
10 p.m. accomplished in the way of tree growing, the results should be of great benefit to the settlers. It was brought out in the course of the discussion that these settlers might ultimately have to move out to other parts of the province.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
For surveys and investigations of water and power resources, and for administration of water-ipowers, etc., 5367,000.
Mr. HODGINS:: In view of the possible taking over by (the provinces of their natural resources, could this item not be reduced?


Charles A. Stewart: Agreements have been entered into between the Water Powers branch and the Various provincial governments for surveys of this character. All provinces, therefore, irrespective of whether or not the natural resources go back to them, are receiving service of this character.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Reclamation of Dominion lands by drainag. (including revote of 569,000), $217,000.
Edward Joseph Garland: Would the minister explain this item?


Charles A. Stewart: This is
a matter in which I have been interested for some time and which I discussed with the department when I was provincial premier. Arrangements were made with the federal department by the western provinces with respect to reclamation, and on assuming office I found that one project under way had not been completed; the vote this year is for its completion. It is not the intention of the department to carry on any further surveys in this connection; it is believed that the work can be done more advantageously by the provinces themselves. Where Dominion lands are affected we are prepared to enter into agreements to turn those lands over to the provinces or to individuals whom the provinces may suggest as proper persons to be entrusted with drainage projects.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canadian National parks, $966,500.
Hugh Guthrie: There is a substantia] increase in this item. Would the minister be kind enough to explain it?


Charles A. Stewart: The apparent increase of $166,500 is not an increase when the three Governor General's warrants, granted in August, October, and November last, totalling $166,500, are taken into account. The increase of $166,500
over the original vote last year, is due mainly to:
Banff 'Windermere road	 $81,000
Fencing additional area in Elk Island Park to provide sufficient pasture for the increasing number of buffalo.. 16,000 Edith Gavell road, Jasper park..	10,000
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Town planning work transferred from Conservation Commission August 1st,
'last	 10,160
New park area-Vidal's Point on shore
of lake Katepwa near Indian Head. .	2,670
The balance is made up of small amounts required for maintenance of roads, streets, public buildings, recreational facilities, etc., which are exceptionally high because during the war, the parks appropriations were reduced to $300,000 for two years, and $349,670 for two years, which were not sufficient to provide adequately for the general maintenance work in the parks. The total number of visitors to all the parks last year was approximately 160,000, about 60,000 of whom were foreigners. Allowing an average expenditure of $300 for each foreign visitor, this represents over $18,000,000 brought into the country, in return for which we sent practically nothing out. Capitalizing this revenue on the basis of a 5 per cent dividend, it means thal^ the national parks are worth to-day $360,000,000 to the people of Canada, and their value is increasing yearly. This does not take into account what they are worth as playgrounds to Canadians themselves. The country's return was about twenty times our expenditure, and it must be remembered a good deal of this was spent on new road construction forming an investment on capital account that will bring in its own revenue in the near future. Anyone who has visited the Banff park will realize its immense value from the point of view of the tourists Who visit it as well as of the residents of the country who go there. The Windermere road, which we hope to complete this year, will make a connecting link that will bring the tourists from the international boundary north of Calgary, through the Banff park, on to the lakes in British Columbia, and, returning, either by way of the coast or back through the Crow's Nest pass. This is a portion of the work that we have been asked to complete, notwithstanding the fact we may find ourselves short of money; for it will bring to Canada a great number of people who otherwise might not come here. With respect to the Jasper park, and to the other parks that are on the National system of railways, I think they should be developed in order that we can encourage traffic upon our own railways and get a return for these investments. I believe I am safe in asserting that if these playgrounds along our National railways are developed even to the extent that the Banff park is developed 
to-day, it will mean a very considerable addition to the earnings of these railways. I am strongly in favour of developing those playgrounds.


Hugh Guthrie: I understood the minister to say that the increase of $166,500 represented the three Governor General's warrants which were issued last year?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Hugh Guthrie: Why are they in the estimates of this year?


Charles A. Stewart: They are in the estimates; I was simply pointing out that the estimate of last year, plus the Governor General's warrants, equalled the estimate of this year.


Arthur Meighen: That is what I thought the minister meant. He is asking for the same amount as was necessary last year.


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: Were the warrants exactly this amount? I do not think so.


Charles A. Stewart: The officials inform me the warrants were: $100,000, $50,000 and $16,500. I may say that I know something of the necessity for the last warrant-namely, the unemployment situation was taken into consideration in connection with the construction of the Banff-Windermere road and on that account construction was continued after the appropriation was exhausted.


Arthur Meighen: That was one of the major factors in determining the Government to press on with that work? I listened with pleasure indeed to the minister's defence of the expenditure in connection with these parks. I can remember well when that same duty devolved on me, when I was not treated with quite the same consideration across the floor, when I was told that this expenditure was merely catering to the rich and was really not for the good of the country at all; and in my humble way I had to defend it and say that our parks were an asset for the whole country in that they brought money into Canada. I can remember as well having to adduce figures in an endeavour to show that we really obtained as much profit per acre from the rocks and mountains of our parks as from the wheat fields of Alberta. That, perhaps, would not amount to very much now 'because I have been taught to believe by hon. gentlemen to my left that there is no profit per acre on the wheat fields. Anyway if the one source of revenue fails let

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the other continue. I am grateful that the minister is now able to present to a much more sympathetic audience the case that I presented before.


Mr. LAPOINTE:: It depends on the minister.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Grant to Alpine Cllub of Canada, $1,000.
Arthur Meighen: I really think the minister should not have the heart to ask for this $1,000 for the Alpine Club in the absence of the hon. member for Brome (Mr. McMaster).


Ernest Lapointe: Oh, have a heart!


Arthur Meighen: I recall the battle that he waged in this House year after year- waged against heavy odds and with considerable support around him-to save the suffering people of this country from this awful imposition of a thousand dollars- a thousand dollars that he saw passing from the treasury into the pockets of the rich and the powerful to enable them to enjoy the scenery of the Alps of Canada assisted by the hard earned savings of the people of this country. The hon. member is absent to-night but I know it could not have been by intention, because even this session I find that the memory of the filching from the treasury that had been done by this Alpine Club has not passed from him. I can recall weM that he reminded me of it only about two weeks ago; but here when there is opportunity to save the nation from this imposition he is absent from his duty. I will not, I am sure, appeal to the minister in vain when I ask him just to let this item stand in order that the House may be treated once more to the lugubrious eloquence of the hon. member for Brome.


Charles A. Stewart: I also have a recollection of being attacked on a similar vote in the legislature of the province from which I come, and knowing the sympathetic mind and heart of the right hon. gentleman I am sure he will agree to allow this item to pass realizing what we have both suffered in the past in this connection.


Arthur Meighen: Are none of the other critics going to speak at all?-because the hon. member for Brome was not alone.


Ernest Lapointe: Yes, he was alone.


Arthur Meighen: Oh no, my recollection is much more intimate than that of the
Minister of Marine and Fisheries. I am sure that the hon. member for Laprairie and Napierville (Mr. Lanctot) was one of his coadjutors and I see him now in his seat.


Roch Lanctôt: I am here.


Arthur Meighen: And silent.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Seed Grain Advances-Amount required to meet uncollected portions of advances of seed grain made in the Western provinces by the chartered banks to holders of unpatented Dominion lands under the guarantee of the Dominion Government, aJlso including commission payable to banks for collections, fees to secretary treasurers of municipalities and officers of the provincial departments of agriculture, clerical assistance, travelling expenses, etc., $200,000.
Arthur Meighen: I presume the method that was installed about three years ago is being continued by the minister-the method of guaranteeing the banks up to a narrow margin of interest, giving them an incentive to collect this money themselves? Also, how much of the vote of $500,000 last year was actually spent? I know it was absolutely impossible to judge how much we should need?


Charles A. Stewart: Two hundred thousand dollars.


Arthur Meighen: About the amount being asked this year. I think the minister will, if he has looked into the matter, be able to report to the committee that this method has saved the country very large sums of money and has proved efficient, effective, and economical, meeting the situation in every way.


Charles A. Stewart: I thoroughly agree with what the right hon. gentleman has said. So far as I have been able to learn it is the most economical method of dealing with the situation.


Arthur Meighen: That, I presume, will be read by the critics of long ago who are absent or inert to-night.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Conciliation and Labour Act, including publication, printing, binding and distribution of Labour Gazette and allowance to correspondents, $50,000.
Mr. McBRIDE:: I do not see that there
is much use in our sitting in the chamber unless we can hear what is going on.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The minister might
give us a statement as to the progress made
10S4

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under this item, in the Nova Scotia coal situation.


Hon. JAMES MURDOCK (Minister of Labour):: This particular vote has nothing to do with the Nova Scotia coal situation.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I do not think the minister is treating the House with courtesy when he makes that statement. I am not seeking to pester him with things that do not come under the item, but as I read this item it is:
Conciliation and Labour Act, including publication, printing, binding and distribution of Labour Gazette and allowance to correspondents, $50,000.
Surely, under the duties of the department and the administration of the Conciliation and Labour Act, I would be justified in asking a very ordinary question, and I think the House has been very tolerant with my hon. friend in refraining long ago from inquiring as to what progress has been made in the settlement of. the strike. If the minister refuses to answer, then we are to rely upon press reports, and when he refuses to answer my very simple question, I think I am justified in making a few speculations. It would appear from items in the press that very satisfactory progress has not been made. I think the minister should take this opportunity to tell the House just what progress he has made. Certainly I am amazed at his bald, blank, and scarcely courteous refusal to give the information.


James Murdock: I am very sorry, indeed, Mr. Chairman, if my hon. friend from Centre Vancouver (Mr. Stevens) understood me as being discourteous in suggesting to him that the next item that we will have to discuss is the one which has to do with the expense connected with handling the mining difficulties in Nova Scotia. There was no intention of being discourteous. I now understand that the hon. gentleman would like some information as to the status of the situation in Nova Scotia, which we discussed in this House some weeks ago, and, of course, I will be very glad to give such information as I have at hand in regard to that matter. As hon. gentlemen have seen from press reports, an effort was made to reconvene the Gillen Board. As a matter of fact, the Gillen Board was reconvened, and, shortly after reconvening in Halifax, two members of the board, in substance and in effect, wired their resignation to me, indicating that they had no authority, as a reconvened board, to deal [Mr. Stevens.)
with the question that had been indicated in this House they should properly and effectively deal with. The resignation of the two members of the board, namely the chairman and the representative of the employees, was promptly accepted by the minister, and later I received from the former representative of the company on that board a letter which, in substance, indicated that he was heartily in accord with the belief of his colleagues that the reconvened board could not, under any intent of the law, deal again with the situation that they had undertaken to deal with in January last. The result was that we undertook, of course, in carrying out the evident desire of this House, to at once institute a new board of investigation under 63A of the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act, as amended in 1918, and that board is now in course of formation.
A week ago last Wednesday the miners' representative appointed a member to that board to represent the employees. The companies have not yet appointed their representative. They asked for some delay, sufficient to compensate or make allowance for the holiday, which was given them. That time expires to-night, when, if an appointment has not been made by the companies, it will be the duty of the minister to appoint a representative for the companies. Then it will be necessary for another five days to elapse, in which we hope that the two members appointed will agree on the choice of a chairman. If they fail to do so, it will again devolve upon the minister to choose a chairman for the board, so that we hope to have a newly established board functioning in regard to the mining dispute of Nova Scotia within the next ten days.


Henry Herbert Stevens: What is the condition of the dispute now?


James Murdock: The condition, as I understand it, is that coal mining is going on under fairly satisfactory conditions. The strike-on-the-job, in so far as it was ever effective, has been, as I understand, distinctly and entirely abandoned, full work is being given ungrudgingly, and the actual coal mining situation is better than it . was when we discussed the matter in the House on the 30th March last. Of course,
I judge that is because the men believe that, as soon as possible, there will be another board functioning and investigating entirely the situation on their behalf.


Arthur Meighen: I was very strongly under the impression that the Government

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was only wasting time in this dispute in endeavouring to reconvene the old board. However, I had not studied the act particularly, and I assumed the Prime Minister, who had charge of the matter, and who, I had understood framed the act, knew its terms, and that when he accepted the suggestion of the leader of the Progressive party that the old board be reconvened, he was accepting something that was practical and that would lead somewhere. But on subsequent inquiry I find the impression I was under was absolutely and plainly correct, and that there could be no possible misinterpretation of the matter at all. I must say that, under the circumstances, and a very clear reading of the statute, I do not know why the Government ever set to work to attempt to reconvene the old board, to go back into the old dispute, because, manifestly, the old board had no power in the world to go back in to that dispute. The old board had completed its functions when it made its report, and it could only be reconvened for the purpose of interpreting that report under section 22A of the act. It could not be reconvened and reassume any of the powers at all that it formerly exercised. All it could do would be to go down and give the support of either side without any powers at all. Consequently, when the old board was presumably reconvened, time was being wasted, and when the members resigned they were resigning offices they did not hold. They had nothing to resign. The offices they had held terminated sometime before, with the handing in of their report. So that there was nothing but time wasted in connection with the reconvening of the old board.
Of course, the minister under the provisions of section 63A, which he has just referred to, and properly referred to, could properly appoint a new board. He could, by going through the regular process, or rather he could not, but the parties to the dispute, could, if they so chose, have taken the former members. But they were the men to make the choice; under the act, the Government could not make the choice at all. If the Government was operating under the act, the Government had to leave it to the parties to name their representatives. All the rest of the procedure was just so much, I will not say intentional, but just so much waste time, and I could not help thinking that the minister himself has been of that impression all along. With, however, that time gone, simply through inappreciation of the
law owing to hasty action on the part of members of the Government, we are now apparently at the stage where the law is being complied with, where, under section 63-A, the minister is taking steps to have a new board established. That is all right.
I do not know whether that is the best method or not; the minister ought to be in a position to know that a great deal better than I. There may be some advantage in having a royal commission under the Inquiries Act, and I am quite prepared to accept his judgment that this is the best step to take. I am glad to see something done to bring about better conditions and to have the Labour Department function as it is intended to function in disputes of this kind. Let me, however, express the hope that, when the board is appointed, it goes to the ground and learns all the facts; that the minister sees, to the best of his ability, that it goes there, and also that, hereafter, when we have declarations of labour policy from the Minister of Labour, we shall be able to understand that they are declarations of government policy. I presume, however, that all are concurring with the minister this time in the appointment of a new board under section 63-.A, and that this is not a step which he is taking, only to be repudiated by his colleagues later on.


James Murdock: I am, indeed, gratified to hear this evening the statement from my right hon. friend. I was personally convinced, on the third day of April, when he rose from his seat in this House and undertook to insist that, unconditionally, the Gillen Board be reconvened, he knew full well or believed that it would be inconsistent with the provision and intent of the act, under all the circumstances, to reconvene that hoard, and that the board, when it was convened, would have no effect or authority in law. I felt, at that time, that my right hon. friend-and I am not criticising in this-was endeavouring to assist in delaying the game for the purpose, possibly, of casting some reflection upon the Minister of Labour or the Labour Department or, possibly, upon some of the present colleagues or associates of the Minister of Labour in the present Government.


Arthur Meighen: Before the minister
proceeds further in reference to my statement, will he read my words where I insisted that the Gillen Board be reconvened? I certainly intended to insist that what was

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done be done unconditionally as regards Mr. McLachlan; but I did not insist or suggest that the Gillen Board be reconvened. What page is it?


James Murdock: Page 621, April 3. The language is:
Mr. Meighen: Anyway, I understand that the reconvening of the board is wholly irrespective of the repudiation of Mr. McLachlan's stand.


Arthur Meighen: Hear, hear.


James Murdock: Again, on the same page:
Mr. Meighen: Unconditionally?


Arthur Meighen: Hear, hear. Certainly. I understood the reconvening of the board to be unconditional, and unconditional, not depending at all on McLachlan's stand. I never made even the suggestion that the board be reconvened-much less insisted that it be reconvened; but when hon. gentlemen said that the board was going to be reconvened, I asked if the reconvening was to be unconditional and stated my understanding that it was to be unconditional. Will the hon. gentleman cease now to misrepresent me? Will he read the preceding paragraph?


James Murdock: I have not the slightest desire or intention of misrepresenting my right hon. friend; but if I might be permitted to suggest, it is purely and simply, as a result of the position taken and insisted upon by my right hon. friend, that the delay of the past two or three weeks has occurred in dealing with the mining situation in Nova Scotia. No other statement or reason is responsible for the delay that has occurred, during the past two or three weeks,in placing a board on the job, properly functioning under the law, to do the thing that this House of Commons, according to its declaration on the evening of March 30, last, wanted done. I know how capable the right hon. gentleman is when he undertakes to convince this house that he is not responsible or to disprove anything which I might say to the contrary. I know full well how easily and readily he will evade the responsibility and undertake to place it upon some of my colleagues or upon myself. Again,
I repeat, as Minister of Labour, that the Right hon. Arthur Meighen is primarily responsible


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


James Murdock: The right hon. leader of the Opposition is primarily responsible for the delay of the last two or three weeks,

which delay I can assure him I am trying to make up for as fast as possible under the law. As he has said and given me credit for, I felt at the time, after the discussion and after full consideration of the law, that the law did not contemplate the reconvening of the board for the purpose of going as fully into all the circumstances as this House appeared to indicate it wanted those circumstances investigated. We could have reconvened the board in order to express its opinion on some phase of its previous award, but I did not think we could have reconvened it for the purpose of an entirely renewed investigation. The situation is as I have stated. We are endeavouring to make up now, as best we can, for lost time.


Arthur Meighen: I cannot say whether astonishment or amusement is uppermost in my mind listening to the speech of the minister. I am responsible, he says, for three weeks' delay; and if I got his remarks correctly, although I am finding increasing difficulty in following him, as he is getting further from the realm of reason every time he speaks, the cause of that delay is that I insisted on the Gillen Board being reconvened. I may be entitled to all the compliments he pays me as to fidelity to reason and, consequently, some success in convincing people; but I shall not need to over-exercise any of those powers to-night. Hon. members were present in this Chamber all through these discussions, and, if any hon. member has any recollection of my even suggesting the reconvening of the Gillen Board, I should like him now to stand in his place and say so. He will search Hansard in vain for any suggestion, either in the first discussion or the second. On the first discussion, as every hon. member knows, the hon. member for Marquette (Mr. Crerar), in perfectly good faith, having heard the debate, having heard the impossible position taken up by the minister, with which position nobody, not even his colleagues, could agree, suggested that the Gillen Board be reconvened; that it be asked to go back and complete on the ground the work that it had commenced. That was followed by the remarks of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding), who stated his confidence in the personnel of that board, and recited certain questions that he had put to the parties that had come down to ask for a royal commission. Those parties had themselves stated that they believed that the members of that

Supply-Labour
board had endeavoured to do what was right, and the Minister of Finance repeated, at that time, that he had made a suggestion that the Gillen Board was the proper one. That was followed by a proclamation of the minister to the press-because he keeps very close to the press, whatever faults he may have-to the effect that they could not move until McLaehlan came down and receded from his position. Consequently the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) having taken the one stand, accepting the suggestion of the leader of the Progressive party (Mr. Crerar), in which I had no part at all, and as respects which I did not even make a statement, and the Minister of Labour having made a statement to the press of the country wholly contradictory of his colleague's view, I asked in the House, the next day, what was to ibe done. I called attention to 'both statements and inquired whether the board was to be reconvened, or whether the policy of the Minister of Labour, as stated in the press, was to be carried out. I was promptly and distinctly informed by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) that the Gillen Board was to be reconvened, and that steps had already been taken-I think I am giving the words of the hon. member, or, at least, their effect-to get in communication with the members of the board; whereupon, having in mind the proclamation of the minister that nothing would be done until there was a repudiation of the stand taken hy Mr. McLacKlan and his men. I asked whether this reconvening was to be unconditional and irrespective of the conduct of Mr. McLaehlan.


James Murdock: Does my hon. friend think that the Minister of Labour acted in disregard of the rights of all the people of Canada when he took the position that no consideration should be given to a man or men who promulgated and sought to carry out any such thing as they were talking about, such as "loafing on the job?" Does he think that the Minister of Labour improperly took that position? My hon. friend appears to justify the conduct, the attitude, and the claims of McLaehlan on April 3rd, and I want to know whether or not I misunderstand him in this respect.


Arthur Meighen: Let me assure the minister that he will not misunderstand me tonight; but I will assure him, first of all, that he will not switch me from the point, until I am through, no matter how he struggles to do so. I will finish that first.


James Murdock: And you will give me an answer to that question.


Arthur Meighen: I have given the answer already, but I have no objection to repeating it. The point is this:	having
pointed out this conflict of statements with the Government, I asked the Prime Minister whether the board was to be reconvened as intimated by the Minister of Finance two or three days before, and the Prime Minister gave a clear and unequivocal answer. To make sure that there was to be nothing conditional about it, I inquired whether this reconvening was to be conditional or unconditional, and was told that it was to be unconditional. Now, what is to be thought of a minister of the Crown, in the face of these facts, coming to Parliament to-night and asserting that I am the father of the reconvening of the board, and that, because I inquired whether it was to be done unconditionally, therefore, all the delay connected with the reconvening is attributable to me? Is that the only sense of reason the minister has? Is that the best he can do?


James Murdock: A mere knowledge of the facts is all I have.


Arthur Meighen: The minister's knowledge of the facts may be all right, but in his expression of them he is all wrong.


James Murdock: I am willing to let the people of Canada judge who is to blame for the delay.


Arthur Meighen: We are now before the members of this House. Now what the minister asks to-night is another question altogether, a question debated in this House some weeks ago on the motion of the member for Calgary (Mr. Irvine). My judgment on that is exactly as expressed then. I did not feel that the conduct of McLach-lan was such that it could in any way be made an excuse for the Department of Labour to cease functioning. That is the opinion I expressed then and to which I adhere now; and that seemed to be the opinion of the Government, however different it may have been from the opinion of the Minister of Labour.


Robert James Manion: The publication, the
printing, binding and distribution of the Labour Gazette comes under this item. I have heard the opinion expressed in the past by labour men that the table which is given in the Labour Gazette on the cost of living is absolutely Unreliable. The minister has no doubt seen this table many times. Does he think it is a reliable guide as to the cost of living?
Supply-Labour


James Murdock: When did my hon. friend hear this opinion?


Robert James Manion: I heard it during the regime of the late government. It came to my hearing in the past; I have not heard it since my hon. friend has been Minister of Labour. Like myself, he has been only a short time in office.


James Murdock: So far as I have had an opportunity to look into the matter, I believe that the figures contained in the Labour Gazette in regard to either the increase or the decrease in the cost of living are as nearly accurate as they can be made under all the circumstances. The Dominion statistician gets the figures in regard to the cost of all the commodities that go to make up the cost of living, and these figures are compiled as carefully as possible and put into shape for the Labour Gazette. As I say, they are as nearly accurate as they can possibly be made, although I have not the slightest doubt that any gentleman who cared to do so could prove that at some particular town or in some locality the figures were slightly different, one way or the other, from those given in the Gazette. Generally speaking, however, they are reliable.


Robert James Manion: I merely wanted the information. I was desirous to know whether, in the minister's opinion, the figures given in the Gazette were reasonably accurate.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Industrial Disputes Investigation Act, $35,000.
Henry Herbert Stevens: Has the minister any information regarding the rather serious dispute in District 18, the Crow's Nest?


James Murdock: Under the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act, the board has been functioning in District 18 for some days now, although, for some reason which I am not quite aware of, it has been for two or three days off the job. The board reconvenes again on the 25th at Canmore, having been already at Drumheller, where it spent three or four days investigating.


Henry Herbert Stevens: And the men are on strike in the meantime?


James Murdock: Yes; they left the company's employ on the 1st of April when the contract expired, and the board was convened on that date to deal with the situation. It is now proceeding as quickly as possible in a thorough investigation. It

has yet to go to Lethbridge, Crow's Nest, Michel and Fernie to investigate several other mining situations.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Labour Administration, Employment Offices Co-ordination Act, $45,000,
Robert James Manion: We have one of these employment offices at the head of the lakes, and I should like to know how that office is run by the province and the Dominion combined.


James Murdock: The province mans the office, the Dominion pays not more than half the expense. I am told that sometimes it is a little less than half, but never more than half in any particular case.


Robert James Manion: Is the management of the office entirely in the hands of the province?


James Murdock: Yes, sir.


Mr. SIMPSON:: How often does the
manager of the office report to the central bureau in Ottawa as to the number of unemployed?


James Murdock: Daily reports are sent to the federal Department of Labour of all vacancies, but those officers report directly to the Ontario government and are under its direct control.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Is this system working out satisfactorily according to the minister's judgment; and is the effort on the part of these public employment bureaus in a measure meeting expectations?


James Murdock: The employment officers scattered throughout the Dominion are helping to some extent in relieving the unemployment situation when there are opportunities for them to secure vacancies for unemployed men to go to. I have not sufficient knowledge of the administration of these offices in every province to give all the information which my hon. friend would probably like in order to show whether any improvement could be effected in their management, if that is what he desires.


Henry Herbert Stevens: What I had in mind is this. I know one officer in particular in my own city whom I have always held in very high esteem. I may say that he has never been a supporter of mine politically, so I am speaking quite impartially. On the other hand, I have heard criticisms that the offices are not functioning effectively, and I think it would be desirable while the Estimates are before us that some official opinion should be expressed. If

Supply-Labour
the department receives no definite and adequate reports, I would suggest that steps be taken to keep in touch with these employment bureaus inasmuch as we are paying a portion of the cost of maintenance.


James Murdock: I am sure my hon. friend will appreciate that it would be rather a delicate task for the federal Department of Labour to suggest how the various provinces should run their employment offices. We do, it is true, undertake to maintain reasonable supervision over the manner in which they are being conducted, but I am told that we have got to be very careful how we treat any plan that is regarded as satisfactory by the provincial authorities.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The whole question narrows itself down to this, if the minister will permit me. We are voting $45,000-not a very large sum for the whole of Canada, I will admit-but the object, if I remember correctly, was to lessen the expense and avoid any duplication that might otherwise occur between the operations of the provincial and Dominion Labour Departments. My point is that if the department is not satisfied that effective work is being done, certainly the grant should not be continued and the association should be terminated. I am under the impression that these employment offices are working satisfactorily, but there have been disturbing criticisms, and if the minister from the reports at hand cannot give us a satisfactory answer as to this, then I think the department ought to exercise a more intimate supervision.


James Murdock: I am told that we have had no complaints such as suggested by my hon. friend. I am sure he realizes that this $45,000 is not all of the money that is expended by the Dominion in connection with employment offices; this is only for their administration. The amount asked is $45,000, a reduction of $30,000 from the appropriation of 1921-22. The appropriation is intended to cover the expense incurred in the administration of the Employment Offices Co-ordination Act. Briefly, the statute empowers the minister to aid and encourage the organization and co-ordination of employment offices, to promote uniformity of methods among them, and to establish clearing houses for the interchange of information between employment offices concerning the transfer of labour and other matters. For the purposes of such
organization and co-ordination provision is made for distribution among the various provinces annually of a sum of $150,000. The present vote, however, relates only to expense incurred in administration, and represents disbursements on account of printing, stationery and other supplies, travelling and temporary help. There are at this time-March, 1922-seventy-six provincial offices and three clearing houses- Halifax, Ottawa and Winnipeg-all of which are outfitted from the department with respect to stationery and supplies. The disbursements include considerable charges for railroad travelling and printing. The appropriation for 1922-23, though considerably reduced from that of last year, is intended to meet the charges incurred in issuing periodical bulletins, and so forth.


Henry Herbert Stevens: What was spent last year?


James Murdock: From April 1, 1921 to March 31, 1922, $49,832.58. This might possibly be added to because of some items chargeable to the past fiscal year.


Robert James Manion: I notice that in addition to item 268, for administration, Employment Offices Co-ordination Act, $45,000, item 269 provides $100,000 for these employment offices. In view of these two items, and the minister's statement that we pay half the cost of running these offices, I do not agree that any diffidence need necessarily be shown in approaching these employment offices with suggestions. I do not know whether diffidence is one of the qualities possessed by the minister. I would like to know how many men have been given employment through these offices during recent months, say since the first of January?


James Murdock: I have the totals for
the fiscal year; I do not know that I have them for the period since the first of January. During the fiscal year 1921-22 the approximate number of vacancies notified to the officers of the employment service was 429,600, of which 327,900 were for men and 101,700 for women. Applicants for employment during the year numbered approximately 541,400, of which 439,900 were received from men and 101,500 from women. The total number of placements effected was approximately 357,700; of these about 270,600 were regular placements

236,600 of men, and 34,000 of women-and 87,100 placements were casual; that is, the employment was not expected to continue more than one week. The average daily
Supp ly-La hour

have been placed in temporary and more or less permanent employment; that would be, roughly, something over 350,000 a year.


James Murdock: Yes. My hon. friend
might like to have the record of the previous fiscal year, 1920-21 by provinces. It is as follows:
	Regular Placements			Casual Placements.
Men	Women	Total	95	2	97	01,637	166	1,803	1094,841	334	5,175	22214,438	1,442	15,880	366100,062	9,057	109,119	17,85652,445	6,681	59,126	27,07940,886	4,012	44,898 .	6,96247,508	7,273	54,781	14,60544,810	4,602	49,412	12,546
306,722	33,569	340,291	79,745
transactions of employment service were
approximately:
Vacancies	 1,390
Applications	 1,750
Regular placements	 880
Casual placements	 280
Total placements	 1,160


Robert James Manion: These figures really
show that practically a thousand people


Robert James Manion: These .figures ag*ree
pretty much with the figures for the past year; they are a little less, but practically the same. That would seem to me to be very gratifying. Now, besides item 268, $45,000, and item 269, $100,000, there is an amount authorized by statute of $150,000 *-all for employment offices. Why should this amount of approximately $300,000 be divided into three votes?


James Murdock: Item 268 is for the
administration of the Employment Offices Co-ordination Act. The amount
11 p.m. given in item 269, $100,000, the same as last year, is intended for distribution among the provinces. Under the terms of the act, the amount provided for the year is $150,000. The industrial situation likely to prevail throughout the fiscal year 1922-23 is anything but clear at the present time, and it is thought desirable to supplement the statutory appropriation by the amount indicated, thus enabling the department to meet contingencies which may confront the employment services. I have the following memorandum:
The provinces have, during the past two or three years been led to expect that the federal grant would be practically equal to their expenditures and this would be possible only by increasing the statutory appropriation as proposed. Its omission would bring from the provinces the protest that they had been induced to undertake certain annual expenditures on a basis of partnership and the federal Government had then withdrawn. A detailed statement of expenditure for the twelve months ending March 31st, is given for the various provinces.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

International Labour Conference, $15,000.
Robert James Manion: I would ask the minister one question about this item. I understand there is an International Labour Conference, having some connection with the Genoa Conference, being held in Rome. Has Canada any representatives at that Conference?


James Murdock: My understanding is that it is only a general International Trades Union Conference that is being held at Rome.


Henry Herbert Stevens: What is this item for?


James Murdock: The expenditure under this head arises out of section 13 of the Peace Treaty. It is probable that the 192223 conference will be held in Europe.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Joint Industrial Councils, $15,000.
Mr. WOODSWORTH:: Will the minister explain what the work of the Joint Industrial Councils consists in and what councils report at the present time?


James Murdock: We have only three or four of these Joint Industrial Councils at the present time, I am told. They are in Montreal, Hamilton and Toronto. The results secured are not what the Labour Department looked and hoped for in the formation of these councils. I might add for the information of my hon. friend that the expenditure in connection with this item for the last fiscal year was $13,722.- ' 36. The appropriation is intended to meet

Supply-Labour
charges arising out of work done for the promotion of a system of joint industrial councils as between employers and workmen. The system is largely identical with that known in Great Britain as the Whitley Councils and is thought likely to be helpful in meeting the difficult situation arising out of the industrial unrest. The appropriation is intended to meet charges for printing and stationery, travelling expenses, and temporary assistance.


James Shaver Woodsworth: May I ask the minister if any effort has been made to institute a system of joint councils among the employees of the Civil Service? If the Government itself is the employer and the principle is a good one, is the effort being made here as in England to have Whitley Councils established among the Civil Service employees?


James Murdock: In reply to my hon. friend's question I would say


Edward Joseph Garland: I do not like to interrupt but I wish to put a question which perhaps may be of assistance. I am at a loss to know what the nature and purpose of a Joint Industrial Council is.


James Murdock: An industrial council can be briefly described as a council which would presume to bring the employers and employees connected with a certain industry, or a certain going concern, around the table for mutual discussion with the hope that they would be able to talk their differences over and arrive at an understanding that would prevent any interruption to operations. The Whitley Council is established and maintained to a large extent in England and the industrial councils here are expected to follow very much along the same lines. For further information I would refer my hon. friend to page 71 of the report of the Department of Labour for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 1921 where that point is extensively dealt with.


James Shaver Woodsworth: May I have an answer now to my question as to whether steps are being taken to institute industrial councils in the Civil Service?


James Murdock: I started to answer my hon. friend's question by stating yes, that steps are being taken as far as possible to establish industrial councils wherever it appears feasible.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Will that kind
of policy be pursued as regards the employees in the Civil Service?


James Murdock: Did my hon. friend
mention the Civil Service?


James Shaver Woodsworth: 'I said the Civil Service.


James Murdock: I beg my hon. friend's pardon, I did not catch his precise question. That matter is under consideration. Representations have been made in that regard and they will be given consideration.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Will the same
policy be carried out in regard to the Canadian National Railways, the Government or the Board of Management in that case being the employer?


James Murdock: Six of the largest railroad organizations have what could be very properly described, I think, as an Industrial Council in the Canadian Railway Board of Adjustment No. 1 which deals with all disputes arising in connection with those six organizations, or all controversies with the railways, and the entire Canadian National Railways are a party to that council. I think there is work to be done in bringing the other classes of railroad labour, possibly on the Canadian National Railways, under some similar plan for the mutual benefit of employer and employee.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Unemployment Relief, $100,000.
Henry Herbert Stevens: This is a very important item and I know that there are a number of hon. members in this particular corner who are anxious to discuss it at some considerable length. I hope, however, that the minister at the next meeting of the committee will not seek to place upon me, as he did in the case of the leader of the Opposition, full responsibility for all unemployment because I made this reference. It is pretty late now and I know the committee would not care at this hour to enter into a lengthy discussion of this vitally important item.


James Murdock: It will be quite agreeable to me to discuss the matter later.
Item allowed to stand.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Mackenzie King the House adjourned at 11.12 p.m.
Questions

Monday, April 24, 1922.