1922-05-11

[Stage Direction]
Hon. A. K. MACLEAN (Halifax) presented the first report of the Special Committee appointed to consider railway transportation, recommending that the committee be empowered to sit while the House is in session, and that such evidence as it may take be printed from day to day, and that rule 74 relating thereto be suspended.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. H. B. McGIVERIN (Ottawa) moved that Bill No. 8 respecting the Ottawa Gas Company be withdrawn, and that the fee and Charges paid thereon be refunded, less the cost of printing and translation, in accordance with the recommendation Contained in the third report of the Select Standing Committee on Miscellaneous Private Bills.
Mr. SPEAKER:: This motion can only
be entertained by unanimous consent. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk).

Mr. GOOD:: 1.	What is the total number of returns made by tax payers under the Business War Profits Tax, from the date when this Act was made effective until the present time?
2.	How many such returns have been made each year during this period?
3.	How many tax payers have made returns but against whom no assessment of tax has yet been made?
4.	How many returns in each year have not yet been assessed?
5.	How many have made returns, been assessed, but have not yet paid their taxes?
6.	How much interest, if any, has been lost by the non-assessment of the taxes on the returns furnished?
7.	How many returns, if any, will it be impossible to collect owing to the failure or liquidation of firms or corporations?
8.	Have there been any cases of incorporated companies in which a further allowance for capital than that provided by the act (namely the value of the capital stock, unimpaired reserve, rest or accumulated profits) was made and the capital for the purpose of this acl allowed to be increased?
9.	If so, on what principle and under wha' authority ?

Questions

10.	In cases of profits derived from mines, how much, if any, has been allowed to be deducted from the profits for the exhaustion of mines?
11.	In cases of profits derived from mines, have there been any cases in which, in addition to the allowance made for exhaustion of mines, there has been at the same time added as a reserve, an allowance for the value of the mine?
12.	If so, how many cases, what was the total amount so added and what difference has this made in the taxes assessed?
13.	Have any similar allowances been made for the exhaustion and for the value of pulp or timber lands?
14.	If so, under what authority? [DOT]
15.	Have any other methods of accommodation to tax payers been adopted other than acceptance of notes in payment for assessments levied? If so, what methods?


Hon. Mr. FIELDING:: The Minister of Finance is advised that the supplying of all the information asked for would require quite a long time and a large expenditure for clerical work, which he thinks the honourable member would not desire to have incurred. The minister suggests that if it would be convenient to the honourable member he might call on the Commissioner of Taxation, Mr. R. W. Breadner, at the Finance Department, and discuss the matter with him, with a view to reducing the scope of the inquiry into such limits as might enable the Department to supply such information as the honourable member deems most important.


POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT-MARRIED WOMEN AS EMPLOYEES
Mr. FONTAINE:: 1.	How many married women work with their husbands in the Post Office Department?
2.	What salary and bonus do these women receive?
3.	Is the Civil Service Commission aware that husband and wife are in some cases employed in the same branch of the said Department?
4.	If so, what salary and bonus are received by husband and wife respectively?


Hon. Mr. COPP:: 1.	One.
2.	Salary, $1,000. Bonus, $166.50 for year 1921-22; no bonus paid this year.
3.	No. The Civil Service Commission has on several occasions recommended to the Government the desirability of framing regulations which would remove from the Service married women whose husbands are able to support them; to require female employees to retire upon their marriage; and to prohibit the appointment of married women, save under certain exceptional and specified conditions. As a result an Order in Council was passed on the 18th June, 1920 (P.C. 1393), approving the following regulations:

Hereafter no married woman, whose husband is living, shall be eligible for appointment in the public service.
Provided that, when the commission reports that the supply of experienced help for any particular kind of work is not sufficient to meet the demands of the public service, a married woman may be certified for temporary employment.
Provided further, that where it can be established by a married woman that her husband is unable, through illness or other cause, to contribute to her support, such married woman may be certified for permanent or temporary employment.
Provided further, that where, in the opinion of the commission, it would be desirable or necessary, and in the best interests of the public service to employ a married woman or to employ husband and wife together, such married woman may be certified to by the commission for permanent or temporary employment.
A further Order in Council of the 12th March, 1921 (P.C. 517), provided that:
Any female employee in the public service shall, upon the occasion of her marriage, be required to resign her position.
4.	Husband, salary $1,260, bonus $297; wife, salary $1,000, bonus $166.50.


SOLDIER SETTLEMENT BOARD- SHERBROOKE
Mr. TOBIN:: 1.	How many persons are employed by the Government at. and in connection with the office of the Soldier Settlement Board at Sherbrooke, Quebec?
2.	What are their names?
3.	How many can speak and write French?
4.	What salary do they receive?
5.	When were they appointed?
6.	Where did they reside prior to appointment?
7.	By whom was their appointment recommended?


Hon. Mr. BELAND:: 1.	Seventeen.
2.	Buckland, A.J., DeLeseluc, C., Dunn, Miss M., Farnsworth, T. O., Honeyman, H. R., Hawker, Miss S. L., Kees, Miss V., Kerr, W., MacPherson, W. E. G., Matthews,
G.	D., McCallum, J. A., Palmer, Miss M. G., Porter, H. G., Stewart, Miss E. P., Smillie, Miss C. L., Standish, C. G., Wymbs, A. D.
3.	Four speak and write French. Of the remaining thirteen, four have a speaking and reading knowledge of French.
4.	Yearly salaries as follows: Buckland, A. J., $1,920; DeLeseluc, C., $1,320; Dunn, Miss M., $960; Farnsworth, T. O., $1,800; Honeyman, H. R., $1,800; Hawker, Miss S.

Questions
L., $900; Kees, Miss V., $900; Kerr, W., $2,700; MacPherson, W. E. G., $2,100; Matthews, G. D., $1,800; McCallum, J. A., $1,920; Palmer, Miss M. G., $960; Porter,
H.	G., $1,800; Stewart, Miss E. P., $840; Smillie, Miss C. L., $900; Standish, C, G., $2,100; Wymbs, A. D., $1,500.
5.	Dates of appointment to the staff of
the Soldiers' Settlement Board: Buckland, A. J., May 31, 1920; DeLeseluc, C., April 14, 1919; Dunn, Miss M., September 1, 1921; Farnsworth, T. O., April 21, 1919; Honeyman, H. R., November 3, 1919; Hawker, Miss S. L., December 17, 1919; Kees, Miss V., September 22, 1919; Kerr, W., January 31, 1919; MacPherson, W. E. G., January 16, 1920; Matthews, G. D., November 15,	1921; McCallum, J. A.,
September 15, 1919; Palmer, Miss M. G., October 1, 1921; Porter, H. G., September 17, 1919; Stewart, Miss E. P., October 1, 1921; Smillie, Miss C. L., August 25, 1919; Standish, C. G., June 24, 1919; Wymbs, A. D., September 8, 1919.
6.	Buckland, A. J., St. Anne de Bellevue Que.; DeLeseluc, C., Montreal, Que.; Dunn, Miss M., Sherbrooke, Que.; Farnsworth, T.
O., Bulwer, Que.; Honeyman, H. R., Sherbrooke, Que.; Hawker, Miss S. L., Sherbrooke, Que.; Kees, Miss V., Sherbrooke, Que.; Kerr, W., St. John, N.B.; MacPherson, W. E. G., Toronto, Ont.; Matthews, G. D., Quebec, Que.; McCallum, J. A., Quebec, Que.; Palmer, Miss M. G., Sherbrooke, Que.; Porter, H. G., Sherbrooke, Que.; Stewart, Miss E. P., Sherbrooke, Que.; Smillie, Miss C. L., Sherbrooke, Que.; Standish, C. G., Quebec, Que.; Wymbs, A. D.. Ottawa, Ont.
7.	Buckland, A. J., H. Barton, professor of Animal Husbandry, MacDonald College; Arthur Jones, of Jones-Grant-Lunham, Montreal; Dr. W. L. Shurtleff, K.C., Coati-cook, Que.
DeLeseluc, C., Bruce Campbell, then District Superintendent, Montreal; and W. R. Stevens, then Director of Agricultural Training, Montreal.
Dunn, Miss M., Capt. F. G. Forster, then District Superintendent, Sherbrooke, Que.
Farnsworth, T. O., E. A. Bailey, Provincial Manager (Que.) the Canadian Bank of Commerce; V. E. Moerith, of the Sherbrooke Daily Record, and F. R. Cromwell, of Cookshire, Que.
Honeyman, H. R., B. B. Morrill, then District Superintendent.
Hawker, Miss S. L., B. B. Morrill, then District Superintendent.
loss
Kees, Miss S., B. B. Morrill, then District Superintendent.
Kerr, W., formerly District Superintendent, St. John, N.B.; J. F. Tweedale, Minister of Agriculture, New Brunswick, and
J.	G. Robertson, then Maritime Supervisor,
S.	S. Board.
MacPherson, W. E. G., Assigned by Civil Service Commission.
Matthews, G. D., J. G. Carl Fraser, B.
S.	A., Central Experimental Farm, Ottawa; R. Summerly, Professor of Cereal Husbandry, MacDonald College, Que., and N. D. MacKenzie, Superintendent, Dominion Experimental Farm, Indian Head, Sask.
McCallum, J. A., Major J. H. Roy, then District Superintendent, Quebec, P.Q.
Palmer, Miss G., P. Stewart, then District Superintendent.
Porter, H. G., B. B. Morrill, then District ...Superintendent.
Stewart, Miss E. P., P. Stewart, then District Superintendent.
Smillie, Miss C. L., B. B. Morrill, then District Superintendent.
Standish, C. G., C. M. Armstrong, 205 Beaver Hall Hill, Montreal, and Major J.
H.	Roy, then District Superintendent Quebec, P.Q.
Wymbs, A. D., assigned by Civil Service Commission.


CANADIAN NATIONAL, RAILWAY-TIES
Mr. TOBIN:: 1.	What quantity of railway ties have been purchased by the Canadian National Railway in Quebec, since January 30, 1921?
2.	What are the names of the parties from whom said ties were purchased and the quantity in each case?
3.	What was the price paid?
4.	On what date was the contract given?


Hon. Mr. KENNEDY:: Name	Date	Quan- tity	Price	No. 1 Ties	No. 2 Ties	No. 3 TiesTies	c.	c.	c.Viellet Bros	Nov.26/21	75,000	55	45	25C. E. Fleming Tie &	Lumber Co	Nov. 26/21	125,000	70	60	35International Land &	Lumber Co. Ltd...	Nov.26/21	75,000	60	50	30Clifford Supply Co..	Nov.26/21	75,000	55	45	25C. Desrochers	Nov.26/21	10,000	55	45	25J. A. Boulay	Nov.26/21	10,000	70	60	35J. A. Turcotte	Nov.26/21	140,006	55	45	25L. N. Huart	.Dec. 10/21	25,000	70	60	35L. Nault	Dec. 23/21	10,000	70	60	35J. L. Mercier	Jan. 16/22	1,000	60	50	30J. A. Pelletier	Dec. 21/21	2,000	60	50	30C. Lavoie	Dec. 2/21	1,000	60	50	30Philippe Pitre	Dec. 2/21	400	60	50	30Alph. C. Roy	Nov. 25/21	300	60	50	30Total	549,700	
Questions


LIQUOR XN SASKATCHEWAN
Mr. MILLAR:: Is it in accord with (the Dominion statutes for any person, persons or corporation to engage in the business of operating in the Province of Saskatchewan, what is commonly known as an export liquor house, the business of which consists, in part, or entirely, of importing alcoholic liquors and exporting same to other provinces of the Dominion of Canada or to the United States of America?


Hon.   S@: This is a question to be answered by the judicial tribunals, depending upon interpretation of the British North America Acts.


TORONTO-RAILWAY VIADUCT
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Has the Government taken any action in reference to the requests of a deputation of various public boards, from Toronto, composed of the City Council, the Harbour Commissioners, the Board of Trade, the Trades and Labour Council, and others, which waited on the Government a few weeks ago, asking for the construction of a railway viaduct on the waterfront at Toronto, and for specific performance of The Viaduct Agreement, 1913, which provides for said grade separation there?
2.	If so, what action?
3.	In view of the way the public are suffering from the lack of proper terminal and station facilities, and from level crossings there, what action does the Government propose to take in the matter?


Hon. Mr. KENNEDY:: 1.	The representations made by the boards are under consideration.
2	and 3. Answered by the answer to No.
1.


CIVIL, SERVICE SALARIES
Mr. McQUARRIE:: 1.	How many Civil Servants in Canada are receiving salaries of eight hundred dollars and less per annum?
2.	How many are receiving nine hundred and sixty dollars or less?


Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: Stands as an Order for Return.


Right Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN (Leader of the Opposition) :: I think the rule as to questions standing as Orders for Returns covers questions the answers to which would be lengthy, and consequently would be expensive to print. In regard to this question, the answer to the first question would be a certain figure, and the answer to the second question another figure.


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: I would draw the attention of my right hon. friend to the

second question asking how many civil servants in Canada are receiving $960 or less. This covers almost the entire civil service of the whole Dominion. If the question is allowed to stand on the Order Paper until we get that information it may be standing there for weeks. It is perfectly true, as my right hon. friend says, that the reply may not be very lengthy, but it will take a long time to obtain the desired information and in the meantime the question should not be allowed to remain on the Order Paper.


Arthur Meighen: It is not to avoid the question standing on the Order Paper that the rule applies at all but only on account of the length of the answer. This is a very short question, and it would not matter if it stood1 all1 session.


William Stevens Fielding: It might be short, but the time required to obtain the information might be considerable. I think that is the real ground of the objection.


Arthur Meighen: That is not the ground There is a rule, it was deliberated on this session, and I think a resolution passed by the committee. My recollection of it-and I am quite sure I am correct-is that it bears only on one point, the length of the answer, not the time to obtain it-the length of the answer and the consequent wisdom of putting it in Hansard.


William Stevens Fielding: My recollection is that it is not a change of rule, but it had reference to the printing of long answers ir, Hansard. I think the proper procedure to be taken is that if the question can he answered quickly it should he answered, but if it requires the collection of information throughout the Dominion, it may require a very considerable time.


Mr. LAPOINTE:: The rule says that it is for the Speaker to decide whether the question should he changed into an order for return.


Hewitt Bostock: I would say that the reasons given by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) would indicate that this question should stand as an order for leturn, because I take it for granted that the question "How many civil servants in Canada are receiving salaries of $800 and less per annum" would require a great deal of work. It seems to me it covers a very wide range.


Arthur Meighen: I suggest that the question should stand till your Honour could look up the rules to see whether

Questions
anything else is involved in this decision except the matter of the length of the answer.


John Warwick King: I refer my hon. friend to rule 37, paragraph 4, which reads:
If a question is of such a nature that in the opinion of the minister who is to furnish the reply, such reply should be in the form of a return, and the minister states that he has no objection to laying such return upon the table of the House his statement shall unless otherwise ordered by the House be deemed an order of the House to that effect and the same shall be entered in the Votes and Proceedings as such.


Arthur Meighen: No doubt about that. The question is as to when the discretion should be exercised. I submit it is only in relation to one matter.


William Stevens Fielding: The minister is not bound to answer the question when he has not the information. Suppose the minister replied "the information called for would require considerable time, and, therefore we are not able to answer the question" that would get it off the Order Paper, but would hardly be courteous to +he member who asked the information.


Hewitt Bostock: I think we will let this question, No. 13, stand until to-morrow.


PROVINCIAL HIGHWAY
Mr. GARLAND (Carleton) :: 1.	Has any federal grant been paid on the cost of the Provincial Highway from Ottawa to Pembroke?
2.	Were tenders called for the laying of that portion of this highway between Ottawa and South March?
3.	If so, who submitted tenders and for what amounts?
4.	Who were the successful tenderers, and what was the amount in each case?
5.	Were any quarries purchased on this section of the above highway?
6.	If so, who purchased same, and for what amount in each case?
7.	Prom whom were quarries purchased, and what are the locations?


William Costello Kennedy: No project covering the road in question has been filed with the Federal Highways Commission, nor has any agreement respecting it been entered into by the province of Ontario under the Canada Highways Act. Consequently, the Department of Railways and Canals has no information.


IMPORTS AND EXPORTS 1911 TO 1922
Mr. PREVOST:: What have been the total imports and exports in Canada each year, from 1911 to 1922?


Hon. Mr. BUREAU:: Imports entered
Year	for consumption Exports
1911	$ 451,745,108 $ 290,000,210
1912	
521,448,309	307,716,1511913	
670,089,066	377,068,3551914	
618,457,144	455,437,2241915	
455,446,312	461,442,5091916	
507,817,159	779,300,0701917	
845,356,306	1,179,211,1001918	
962,543,746	1,586,169,7921919	
916,429,335	1,268,765,2851920	
1,064,528,123	1,286,658,7091921	
1,240,158,882	1,210,428,1191922	
747,762,984	753,927,009



GATINEAU POINT FERRY PRIVILEGES

Mr. FONTAINE:: 1.	Has the Government called for tenders this year in connection with ferry privileges between

Gatineau Polntp Quebec, and- Rockliffe, Ontario?
2.	If so, what are the names of the persons who submitted tenders and what was the amount of each tender?
3.	To whom was, the privilege accorded and what was the reason governing the award?


John Warwick King: [DOT]
1.	Yes.
2.	Tenders received from:-Louis Cous-ineau, $1,600; Telesphore and Francis St. Jean, $862; John Letang, $800; D. Horace Seguin, $780; David Seguin, $505.
3.	The license was granted to the highest bidder.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS

Mr. SPENCER:: 1.	How many acres of School Lands have been sold in Saskatchewan, Manitoba,, and Alberta, during the four years of 1918, 1919, 1920 and 1921?
2.	What amount of money is overdue in respect to the above sales in, (a) principal, and (b) interest?


Mr. PREVOST:: 1.	In what countries is Canada represented by trade agents?
2.	What are the names of said agentj, and what salary does each receive?



PUBLIC SERVICE RETIREMENT ACT

[Stage Direction]
Hon. A. B. COPP (Secretary of State) moved that the House do to-morrow go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to extend for one year *the operation of the Public Service Retirement Act, chapter 67 of the statutes of 1920, as amended by chapter 49 of the statutes of 1921.
Supply-Finance
[Stage Direction]
He said: The Governor General having been informed of the subject matter of the resolution, has recommended it to the consideration of this House.
Motion agreed to.
GENERAL MacBRIEN'S REPORTED UTTERANCE
On the Orders of the Day.
Mr. ANDREW McMASTER (Brome) :: Before the Orders of the Day are called I desire to draw to the attention of the Government, and more particularly to the attention of the Minister of Militia (Mr. Graham) a matter of real primary public importance. My attention has been directed to an article appearing in the Ottawa Journal this morning, with the following heading:
Some members show ignorance militia debate.
In this article Major-General MacBrien is reported as having said:
There have been debates in regard to the estimates recently as to the necessity for training for our men. Those who say training is not necessary simply display their ignorance.
The general is reported very much in the same terms in the Citizen. I know how easily it is for men to he improperly reported, hut I would direct the attention of the Minister of Militia to this matter in order that he may make inquiries of the gentleman in question as to whether he made any such remark. Because, I submit to this House, for the general of our staff, who is the head of the staff, to make remarks about the discussion going on in this Chamber would be just as improper as if the Deputy Minister of Railways and Canals gave his opinion publicly as to the advisability or nonadvisability of completing the Hudson Bay railway.
Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM (Minister of Militia and Defence): I have not seen the article, nor has my attention been called to it. I agree with what the hon. member from Brome (Mr. McMaster) has said in reference to the words of General MacBrien, if the general used those words. The general is a pretty cautious man, and I would rather be inclined to think that he was discussing it on broader lines, and rather along the line that possibly the matter of training had not been given much attention by members of Parliament, and that they would not be in the same position to judge of the matter as experts. However, I will inquire of the general and get his explanation of what was said.
[Mr. Copp.l



BANKRUPTCY ACT AMENDMENT

William Lyon Mackenzie King: I would ask the House to proceed to Order No. 32, second reading of Bill No. 56, to amend the Bankruptcy Act. It is the intention to have this bill referred to the Committee on Banking and Commerce, if there is no objection. I move that this House proceed to Public Bills and Orders.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Mr. J. A. C. ETHIER (Laval-Two Mour. tains) moved that Bill No. 56, to amend the Bankruptcy Act, be read the second time.
He said: The purport of this bill is to amend the Bankruptcy Act as regards a particular point, namely, to strike out the word "locality" in paragraph 4 of section 4 of the act, and to substitute therefor the words "judicial district." As two other bills to amend the Bankruptcy Act have already been introduced in this House, and as those bills have been referred by the House to the Banking and Commerce Committee, I thought it would1 be preferable, before discussing the merits of this bill, that it should he referred to that committee in order that it might be considered with the others. The Banking and Commerce Committee, I understand, has not sat since the other two bills have been referred to it, and thus, as the three bills can be considered together, the time of the House will be saved. For that reason, after this bill is read a second time, I will move that it be referred to the Banking and Commerce Committee.
Motion agreed to and bill read the second time.
On the motion of Mr. Ethier, the bill was thereupon referred to the Select Standing Committee on Banking and Commerce.
On the motion of Hon. W. L. Mackenzie King (Prime Minister) the House reverted to the Orders of the Day.
[Stage Direction]
The House again in Committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair:

[Stage Direction]
Hon, W. S. FIELDING (Minister of Finance) : I suggest that we take up the Supplementary Estimates for the fiscal year ended 31st March, 1922. There are a number of items scattered over the vari-

Supply-Finance
ous departments, and we might take them all up in their order.
Charges of management-
Printing, advertising, inspection, express, etc.-further amount required $25,000 Brokerage on purchase of sinking funds-further amount required .. ..	$3,900
The item regarding the sinking funds arises from an increased investment in that direction. The larger item is chiefly caused by charges for express in handling gold between Ottawa and New York. The appropriation last year for printing, advertising, inspection, express, etc., was $100,000, and the expenditure to the 9th May was $123,000. As hon. gentlemen will remember, I explained the matter on the corresponding item in the Main Estimates.
Item agreed to.
Department of Finance-
To provide- _£or the salary of one private secretary from January 26 to March 31, 1922, at $3,360 per annum.$ 614.19 To provide for the appointment of a Commissioner of Tariff from January 23, 1922, at $6,000 per annum, without reference to and notwithstanding the provisions of the Civil Service Act	1,129.03
William Stevens Fielding: The item regarding the private secretary is the same as those which have appeared in all the departments to make provision for private secretaries for the balance of the year. As regards the other item, the circumstances are these. A gentleman who had been forty-five years in the public service, chiefly in the Customs Department or in the Finance Department dealing with customs matters, had retired from the public service on superannuation. He was an officer whose services were regarded as being of the highest importance, and at my request he abandoned his superannuation and returned to the Finance Department, I am afraid not for a very long time. I am proposing that he shall be designated Commissioner of Tariff at a salary of $6,000 per annum.


Arthur Meighen: Who was the corresponding officer, if any, prior to his return?


William Stevens Fielding: There was nobody appointed to do the particular service that he was appointed to do. He had retired, and I discovered him in California. He is a gentleman whose services are regarded as being very valuable.


Arthur Meighen: I understand this is Mr. Russell?


William Stevens Fielding: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: So this is really a new appointment?


William Stevens Fielding: In a measure, it is. He is recalled to the Service, and we give him a new title and an increase in salary.


Arthur Meighen: How does the minister justify getting around the Civil Service Act by what is practically a special Act of Parliament?


William Stevens Fielding: My predecessor and
his predecessor in office both found it necessary to get around the Civil Service Act, and I am obliged to resort to the same method.


Arthur Meighen: I am not aware of the instance which the minister has in mind. Was he afraid that, if applications were called for in the usual way, Mr. Russell could not succeed?_____________


William Stevens Fielding: I think it is quite possible that if applications were to be called for in the usual way and a competition to take place, the wrong man might get the office. I do not hesitate to say that. Mr. Russell is qualified by forty-five years' experience, and it is possible that some man might come in and, on account of being better able to tell the colour of Julius Caesar's hair, he might get the job. At all events, both my predecessor and his predecessor found it necessary to make similar appointments to the public service, notwithstanding the provisions of the Civil Service Act.


Arthur Meighen: I do not think the minister is quite correct. The Civil Service Act never applied to the Income Tax Department, but it did apply to the Finance Department, and the Civil Service Act was followed. If what the minister says is right, that would be an argument in favour of repealing the whole act and of going back to patronage quite unrestrained.


William Stevens Fielding: I would not like to discuss that point at the present time with my right hon. friend. The Income Tax Department would have been under the Civil Service Act unless a special provision had been made to exempt it, just as I propose to take the office of this particular gentleman out of the scope of the commission.


Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: My hon.
friend is not quite correct. I do not think that the Income Tax Department was ever under the Civil Service Act. It was' in process of formation, and I do not know
S upply-Finance

whether my hon. friend thinks that the process is yet finally completed. It was considered, as in the case of many other new departments, that during that process of organization it ought not to be under the act. I do not think that it ever was under the Civil Service Act, although the Finance Department generally was under the Commission.


William Stevens Fielding: The Income Tax
Department never came under the act for the simple reason that my predecessor took good care that it should not, because in the appropriation for that service he provided that the Civil Service Act should not apply to the department.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The whole of the Finance Department generally is under the act, but in this instance my hon. friend is making an exception, having regard to one particular appointment.


William Stevens Fielding: The appointment of
every official at Ottawa will be under the Civil Service Act, unless an exception is made by vote of Parliament. I am making an exception now, just as has been made in previous cases.


Arthur Meighen: Not at all. The minister may justify what he is doing now, but he cannot justify it in that way. The Civil Service Act went a certain length. It included virtually all the services; certain services did not come under it, for definite reasons given. Now, we went that distance and stopped there. But the minister is asking Parliament to retrace a part of the step that has been taken. He desires to remove something from the operation of the act by special statute, because he is afraid that otherwise the right man might not be appointed. To a certain length and stop is very different from what the minister proposes. Having got a certain distance, he wants us to retrace our steps and to that extent repeal the act.


William Stevens Fielding: The Civil Service Act was passed before the Income Tax Act. When the latter act was passed every official appointed under it would have come under the operation of the Civil Service Act unless special exception had been made by vote of Parliament. The Civil Service Act never applied in this respect, because my hon. friends excluded this department from its operation. I am making an exception to-day in one case, whereas my hon. friends did so in hundreds of cases.


Arthur Meighen: That is not a fair
statement at all. It is true that the Income Tax Department never came under the Civil Service Act; neither did the Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment.


William Stevens Fielding: It would have come
under the act but for the fact that it was excepted.


Arthur Meighen: It was never put under the act. These two departments were never put under the act for the reason that the appointments made in connection therewith were in their nature temporary appointments. They did not prove to be as temporary as had been expected, but they were services that were not regarded as of a permanent character. For this reason they never came under the Civil Service Act at all. But what the minister proposes to do now is to take a distinctly reactionary step. He may have special reasons for doing so, but the reason he has so far given would be a reason for repealing the whole Civil Service Act. Has he any special reason to justify the step he is taking in this particular instance?


William Stevens Fielding: The special reason is
that this gentleman has had forty-five years' experience in the public service and is exceptionally well qualified for the duty which I require him to perform. I would ask the House to accept that as reason enough. But I again state that if any department of the public service is not under the operation of the Civil Service Act it is because it has been excepted by just such a motion as I am making on this occasion.


Arthur Meighen: No.


William Stevens Fielding: My hon. friend is
entirely wrong. However, if we agree on the conclusion, I will not quarrel with him as regards the road we take to get there.


Arthur Meighen: We may agree that
there is a great difference between never having brought certain services under the act, and seeking to make an exception of certain services that are already under it. The minister says that the exception here is justified on the ground that Mr. Russell has long experience and is, in his judgment, a man eminently qualified for the duties to which he is to be assigned. I am not disputing the minster's judgment. I know Mr. Russell, but I am not aware of his special qualifications. Assuming that the minister's judgment is correct, does he

Supply-Finance
think that the same fact would not appeal to the Civil Service Commission? Would Mr. Russell's long experience not appeal to them as eminently qualifying him?


William Stevens Fielding: They would have no right to consider it.


Arthur Meighen: No right to consider his experience?


William Stevens Fielding: Not in competition with another man.


Arthur Meighen: Does the minister say that the Civil Service Commission cannot consider the experience of an applicant in estimating his qualifications?


William Stevens Fielding: Not in competition with other applicants.


Arthur Meighen: Certainly; in competition with others the applicant's experience in this case would help him in the race, just as it would help anybody else. The Civil Service Commission takes an applicant's experience into consideration, in fact, they do so in regard to every application. So that what the minister is doing is tantamount to saying that what really qualifies an applicant is something which the Civil Service Commission should not consider at all. If that is the case, then we should have no Civil Service Commission.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Arthur Meighen: My hon. friends say " hear, hear." How many of them are there, though, who did not say just the opposite during the last three sessions?


Mr. DUFF:: Oh, no; we are quite consistent.


Arthur Meighen: The Civil Service Act had all sorts of champions in this House, on this side of the Chamber, during the past three sessions. Even if we sought to refer to a committee the question whether or not it would be wise to make any exceptions, hon. gentlemen rose up in arms, indignant that anything should be done in the way of going back to patronage. But now they are enthusiastic advocates of such a course, because they think they will reap the rewards.


William Stevens Fielding: My hon. friend is entirely wrong in the basis of his argument. This is not a motion under which we are seeking to appoint a man. Mr. Russell was in the Civil Service. The superannuation order had been passed but had not taken effect. We did not need the Civil Service Commission to bring Mr. Russell into the service, because he was already a civil servant. All that we seek to do here, in the way of a departure from the act, is to give him a larger salary than he would have obtained under the Civil Service Act. He does not need the approval of the Civil Service Commission, because he was in the civil service. Superannuation had been ordered, but had not taken effect.


Arthur Meighen: In his return the Civil Service Commission does not need to pass on his qualifications. It never did pass on them, as a matter of fact, because he was already in the service. That seems reasonable. But why should their jurisdiction in the matter of salary not apply?


William Stevens Fielding: Speaking generally, I suppose we have to accept a common principle. But I am going to submit that in the matter of salaries this House is a better judge than the Civil Service Commission; and on that ground, believing this to be a good appointment, I shall ask the House to give me authority to pay the increased salary. On that question I believe that this House is as good a judge as, if not better than, the Civil Service Commission, much as I respect their judgment.


Arthur Meighen: I am sorry I cannot agree with the minister in that respect. If that judgment is correct, then the minister has no ground at all for remaining another hour under the jurisdiction of the commission. If we in this House are better judges of what a fair salary is for work done than is the Civil Service Commission, then the act has no just foundation, neither as respects the inside service nor the outside. I do not think the minister's reason is sound.


Mr. SHAW:: The minister has suggested a Commissioner of Taxation, and apparently the remarks of the leader of the Opposition (Mr. Meighen) have reference to such an official. I notice, however, that the Supplementary Estimates refer to a Commissioner of Tariff.


William Stevens Fielding: If I said "Commissioner of Taxation," that is an error; " Commissioner of Tariff " is the proper term.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: What are the duties of the Commissioner of Tariff?
Supply-Finance


William Stevens Fielding: To assist the minister in all inquiries into the tariff question. From beginning to end this matter is entrusted to the Finance Department. But the minister, with a fairly good impression of his own abilities, does not think he knows it all, and is anxious to procure assistance. He thinks that this gentleman is particularly capable and can help him in this service.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I was not in the House when the matter was first brought up, but my recollection is that Mr. Russell's former salary was $3,900.


William Stevens Fielding: I think that is correct.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My recollection, further, is that Mr. Russell, on the ground of advancing years and the necessity for rest, applied for superannuation, and on his insisting upon superannuation he was granted the sum of $2,700 a year. I should like to ask the minister whether the recalling of this superannuated gentleman-superannuated at his own request

will mean that the superannuation of $2,730 will be increased to what it would be on the basis of a salary of $6,000; or whether the appointment is looked upon by my hon. friend as of an entirely temporary nature, and that it is not intended to increase the superannuation allowance of $2,730.


William Stevens Fielding: The superannuation of an official is hardly under the control of a minister; it is fixed by law. My hon. friend says that this gentleman was retired at his own request. I hope that' is so. But he is still in very good health and has come back into the department at my particular request, for I regard him as a very valuable officer-a better one than I could get from among younger men I shall be glad if he stays in the department longer than he intended, but when the time comes for superannuation he will have to be retired under the terms of the Superannuation Act, that is, having regard to his average salary for the last three years. Undoubtedly if he continues in the department this will give him a larger superannuation than if he had remained out.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Approximately $4,300.


William Stevens Fielding: I cannot say.


Henry Lumley Drayton: As against a superannuation of $2,730?


William Stevens Fielding: Quite so.
	.


Henry Lumley Drayton: It seems to me that under the exceptional circumstances this ought to be looked upon as a special appointment at the minister's request, without extending the gentleman's superannuation rates.


William Stevens Fielding: That would imply a change in the Superannuation Act, and for the present I do not contemplate such a change.


Arthur Meighen: I do not pretend to have made any examination of the act, but I would think that on the recall of a superannuated officer his old superannuation would automatically apply upon his being released. If that is not the case, and if his being recalled for a temporary period has the effect of very substantially increasing his superannuation on account of an increased salary, I would think that a very serious objection to the proposal.


William Stevens Fielding: The Superannuation
Act will govern. If the operation of the act is such as my right hon. friend suggests, I have not any intention of changing it. I think he is mistaken. If that is the operation of the law, Mr. Russell will have to act accordingly.


Henry Lumley Drayton: We are at cross purposes. I think both my hon. friends are right. The cases put by the leader of the Opposition is the case of a man whose superannuation has taken effect and who is recalled. The case advanced by my hon. friend, the Minister of finance, is that of a man who is still in the service, and while superannuation has been applied for by him it has not yet taken effect; he is still being paid a salary. Under the circumstances I am afraid there is some chance of that happening which the minister says will happen-a very largely increased superannuation may be obtained.


William Stevens Fielding: If Mr. Russell remains in the service-and I hope he will-I hope he will get the benefit bf the average of his salary for the last three years, whatever it may be, and I do not think my hon. friend on reflection would wish it otherwise.


John Warwick King: Knowing the great responsibilities that rest upon the Minister of Finance, do not hon. friends opposite feel that he is entitled to come to Parliament and ask for an appropriation for an officer in whom he has great confidence, and to expect to have such appropriation granted?
Supply-Finance


Arthur Meighen: That applies to every minister. The point is that we do not know what obligation we are putting on the country by passing this vote. If it is a fact that by merely bringing Mr. Russell back for a temporary period it is going to have the effect of increasing his sup-annuation by $1,600 for all the rest of his life, that is one thing; if it is merely going to have the effect of giving him $6,000 for the temporary period, that is another thing. I would be under the impression that it would not have the more serious effect. But I think the committee should know what obligation will be incurred.


William Stevens Fielding: My right hon. friend is a legal gentleman and should be able to interpret the Superannuation Act better than I can be expected to. If Mr. Russell remains in the service two years longer -and I hope Re will-I 'think "he will be entitled to the full benefit of the Superannuation Act; if not, he will have to be content with my right hon. friend's interpretation.


Arthur Meighen: The minister is a great deal older than I am, and his judgment ought to be better than mine in regard to this point.


John Warwick King: You would
not think so.


Arthur Meighen: I know the Prime Minister never had a very high opinion of my judgment.


Ernest Lapointe: The opinion seems to be reciprocal.


Arthur Meighen: The Superannuation
Act contemplates a man coming into the service, continuing for a considerable length of time, and paying in a certain amount towards superannuation; then upon his retirement he would get superannuation based upon the average salary of the last three years. That would never contemplate a case like this. Mr. Russell came into the service forty years ago at a small salary, worked up until he reached $4,000, and then applied for and was entitled to superannuation on the basis of his salary the last three years, or $2,700. Now the minister proposes to fix a special salary by statute, and thereby entitle Mr. Russell to superannuation, based on that special salary for the rest of his life, even though he is only in the service for three years. Surely the minister does not suggest that
that was ever contemplated by the Superannuation Act?


William Stevens Fielding: The act will speak for itself.


Arthur Meighen: This may mean thousands and thousands of dollars to Mr. Russell. Does the minister say that that was the original intention of the act? I am told it will mean $4,300 a year as against $2,700 a year, and Mr. Russell will get that all the rest of his life. If we are incurring that obligation we want to do it in the open; but the minister cannot say that that was ever the intention of the Superannuation Act.


William Stevens Fielding: The act says that superannuation applies on a man's retirement with due reference to his period of service, based on the average salary of the last three years. That is what the act says, that is our understanding in the case of Mr. Russell, and I cannot think the act contemplated anything else.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide for balance of legal expense in connection with the Canadian Northern Guarantee Bill, 1914, and the Grand Trunk Railway mortgage trust deed and lease of Eastern Division of National Transcontinental Railway, $13,154.03.
William Stevens Fielding: We are advised that these legal expenses were incurred in connection with railway matters under the late government. The Department of Justice has reported that they are all right, and we ask for an appropriation accordingly.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I am not quite sure that my hon. friend is right. I think this is a very old claim which was not recognized by the last government. It seems to me it has to do with legislation of 1914.


William Stevens Fielding: If my hon. friend claims that the late government did not recognize the item, I will withdraw it without delay. The information I have is that these are amounts for services in connection with the Canadian Northern Guarantee Bill, 1914.


Arthur Meighen: Who are to receive the money?


William Stevens Fielding: The estate of the late James Bicknell will get $11,404.73, less what has been paid on account, $6,200, balance $5,204.73; Messrs. Lewis and Smel-
Supply-Justice

lie, in connection with the Canadian Northern Guarantee Bill of 1914, $5,039, less already paid $2,107, balance $2,932; Messrs. Lewis and Smellie again, in connection with the Grand Trunk Pacific railway mortgage trust deed, $5,017.30. Now, as these transactions occurred in 1914 they couid hardly have been incurred by the present Government or even by the late Liberal government.


Arthur Meighen: I happened to have some familiarity with this matter as it is now described by the minister. The firms he refers to were engaged in 1914 to perform certain legal services in the preparation of the trust mortgages connected with the Canadian Northern legislation and guarantee of that year. Bills were put in by these firms in the usual way-by the firm of Bain, Bickneil and Company, of Toronto, and by Lewis and Smellie, of Ottawa. These bills were taxed by the Justice Department in the usual way and the amount taxed was paid to each firm. Both firms, nevertheless, came back and insisted that they did not get enough and asserted that they would not submit to the taxation of the Justice Department. The government of that day, and every government since, insisted that the rule had to obtain and that the firms in question would have to abide by that taxation. If they could show anything that had not been .taxed; if they could show any services that had been rendered for which they did not submit a bill, all right; but we told them definitely that by the judgment of the taxing officer of the Justice Department the government was going to abide. That was the stand the late government took; the present Government takes a different stand and yields to their claims.


William Stevens Fielding: No, the present Government does not take that stand. I shall drop the item without a moment's hesitation.


Mr. GRAHAM:: I move that the item be withdrawn.
Item withdrawn.
To cover unprovided items, 1920-21, as per Auditor General's report, part B, page 3. 1920-21, $544,009.25.


William Stevens Fielding: The various departments receive letters of credit under which they operate. They are kept within; the limits of the totals of these, but sometimes they exceed the appropriation for some particular branch. At the end of the year

the Auditor General calls atten-4 p.m. tion to this in his report and asks for a vote of Parliament by way of confirmation. The details are all set forth in the Auditor General's report. I must say that this item has always been one that I regret, because if the departments would look after the matter more closely, they would keep strictly within not only their letters of credit, but also the appropriations for each particular item. But so Jong as they do not exceed the total of their letters of credit they seem to feel that some excess in a particular branch of their business will be condoned by Parliament.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I entirely
agree with my hon. friend. It is a matter that I have referred to more than once in the House. It goes to show the uselessness of a past audit instead of a pre-audit, and also the futility of expecting some people to keep within the orders of this House and the amounts voted them by this House. As the matter stands, however, my hon. friend is quite right; there is nothing to do but to put it through.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Civil government-Department of Justice-to provide for one assistant private secretary from December 29th, 1921, to March 31st, 1922,
at $1,600 per annum	$	412 90
Contingencies-further amount required (Governor General's Warrant, December 1st, 1921)..	.. 10,000 00
Mr. JOHNSON (Moosejaw) :: Does this
indicate a new appointment? It would seem to, taking the dates into consideration.


Sir LOMER GOUIN:: There were two
secretaries in my department; one has been transferred to another branch and replaced by an assistant secretary. The expenditure is less by some $1,500.


Mr. CRERAR:: Would the minister
give some explanation of the Governor General's warrant of $10,000 in this item?


Lomer Gouin: This amount is
required on account of the increase of work and the increase of prices. Our appropriation for some years has been insufficient and has had to be increased by supplementary votes. The chief increases are due to temporary employees, travelling expenses of officials, and printing.

Supply-Justice


Mr. HANSON:: That means, if I understand the minister aright, that what the House says is sufficient for contingencies is exceeded by officials of the department, who over-expend from year to year. I do r.ot think that is a proper state of affairs, or that the House should approve of it by simply passing this $10,000 item in this way.


Lomer Gouin: I must say that
most of this was spent before I took office. I will do my best in future to restrict the expenditure within the limit of the vote.


Mr. GOOD:: As I understand it, then,
this money has been spent?


Lomer Gouin: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My recollection is that a warrant was put through in this connection, and the explanation given by the department at the time was that we had to spend a good deal more than had been expected owing to an injunction proceeding in which my hon. friend the leader to my left was one of the complainants, and which he lost.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I would be glad if my
hon. friend would explain that again. I caught only the latter part of his remarks, and they sounded interesting.


Mr. CARMICHAEL:: Is there any standard scale of salary for assistant private secretary? In the previous item the salary of the assistant private secretary in the Privy Council office is $3,000; in this case it is $1,600. Does the salary depend upon the wish of the minister, or is there some set standard?


Lomer Gouin: It is based on the experience of the official.


Archibald M. Carmichael: But in the one
case the salary is $3,000 and in the other it is $1,600.


John Warwick King: In the case of the previous item referred to, the assistant is required to have a knowledge of French as well as English. The length of his service, combined with the fact that he is qualified to take dictation and to read letters in French as well as English, justifies the difference in salary.


Archibald M. Carmichael: It pays to learn French.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Department of Justice-miscellaneous expenditure, further amount required, $6,000.
Lomer Gouin: This is necessitated by the expenses incurred by the arrest, trial, at Fort Providence, N.W.T., and execution, of the Indian Lebeaux, convicted of murder. The judge and officials were brought from Alberta and maintained at Fort Providence during the trial. The total cost will approximate $10,000.


Arthur Meighen: Why is this charged against last year's expenditure?


Lomer Gouin: Because the expenditure was incurred last year.


Arthur Meighen: But I understood the minister to say it would be paid in the future.


Lomer Gouin: It was spent last year, and we are holding the accounts.


Arthur Meighen: They are not paid yet?


Lomer Gouin: Not paid yet.


Arthur Meighen: Why then is this
charged against last year?


Lomer Gouin: Because the trial took place last year.


Arthur Meighen: Even though the trial took place last year amounts being paid this year should not be charged to this year's estimates? For example money voted last year is applicable very frequently to services rendered this year, though it is not payable this year. Should not the reverse be the case?


Lomer Gouin: I am told that is not the custom. The trial took place last year and the expenditure has to be paid out of last year's budget.


Arthur Meighen: The costs seem to be very heavy. I am afraid last year's expenditure is going to be enhanced by the extravagance of the three months at the end?


Lomer Gouin: There has been no extravagance in the three months referred to. This trial took place last summer.


Arthur Meighen: When were the figures submitted and agreed to as being right and fair?


Lomer Gouin: Most of these accounts are from the Mounted Police Department. They were settled not very long ago.
Supply-State


Arthur Meighen: That is what I thought.


Lomer Gouin: But the trial took place last summer.


Ernest Lapointe: We have to pay for former extravagance.


Arthur Meighen: What I am complaining of is the ease with which the Government consents to almost any charge at all.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Penitentiaries-further	amount required
(Governor General's Warrant, February 22, 1922), ?150,000.
Lomer Gouin: The explanation with which I have been furnished with reference to this item is as follows:
Up to the 22nd instant, approximately $50,000 of this amount has been expended
The warrant was necessary owing to the following :
Amount deducted from Supplementary Estimates, May, 1921.. $ 54,000 00 Accounts received from Purchasing Agent, June 1st, 1921, chargeable to year 1920-21, and which had not been reported by him or estimated for	 11,971 41
Total carried over Into present
year	 $ 65,971 41
Expenditure for temporary cells, etc., due to increased population, which amounts to over 500 since the 1st of April, 1921	 37,000 00
Balance required to provide for maintenance and guarding extra population ($30,000 of which is required to pay for extra officers employed but not provided for In main estimates of current year)	 47,028 59


Arthur Meighen: Is this expenditure
all due to the increase of prison population?


Lomer Gouin: Partly to the increase of prison population and partly to having to provide temporary cells, and the appointment of additional officers.


Arthur Meighen: The other items would
be due to the increased population also?


Lomer Gouin: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: When were these
officers appointed?


Lomer Gouin: I can get the dates of the appointments if my hon. friend wishes it.


Arthur Meighen: I would like to get the periods. In this case I see the warrant was passed 22nd February this year. Are (Sir Lomer Gouin.]
the cheques so governed that only payment for services up to 31st March is charged against this warrant, or is the money applicable even beyond that date?


Lomer Gouin: Only to 31st
March.


Arthur Meighen: Is it really a fact that
Mr. J. D. Adamson has been made King's Bench Judge of Manitoba?


Lomer Gouin: He has been
appointed.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Adjustment of War Claims, further amounit required, $1,000.
Lomer Gouin: The vote of $6,000 in the main estimates has been exhausted, and a few outstanding accounts still require attention.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Department of the Secretary of State-to provide for the salary of a Private Secretary to the Secretary of State, from the 21st September, 1921, to the 21st November, 1921, at $3,500 per annum, and from the 22nd November, 1921, to the 28th December, 1921, at the difference between $2,460 and $3,500 per annum, $697.31.
Contingencies - further amount required, $5,495.
Thomas Alexander Crerar: Might we have some explanation of this item? It seems to vary from the preceding items of this character.


Mr. COPP:: The $697 was the difference between the salaries provided for the sec-cretary of the Secretary of State, prior to the 31st day of September, 1921. When the new Secretary of State took office he engaged another secretary, at a higher salary, $3,500, and this amount is the difference between the salary of the former secretary and the salary of the secretary employed by my predecessor during the time that secretary was engaged. One was engaged at $2,400 and the other at $3,500.	,


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Were there two secretaries?


William Duff: Who was the Secretary of State?


Arthur Bliss Copp: Mr. Monty. When he came into office he engaged a secretary at $3,500 a year. The amount provided for a secretary was $2,400, and the $697.31 is to provide for the difference in the salaries between the $2,400 which the former secretary received and the salary of the new secretary, Mr. Mercure, $3,500.

Supply-State


William Charles Good: I woulld like to get some explanation of the second part of the item.


Arthur Meighen: I presume the minister knows that Mr. Monty would require a secretary who understood and wrote both French and English, and that is the real explanation.


Arthur Bliss Copp: The expenditure for 1921-22 was as follows: Clerical assistance, $6,429.94; printing and stationery, $11,800.00; Companies Act, $12,800.00; sundries, $5,220.08; total, $36,250.02. Owing to a misunderstanding as to the number of copies of the report of the Secretary of State required for the use of Parliament, no extra provision was made in the Main Estimates for 1921-22 to cover cost of printing the same. The cost of printing the report is slightly under $2,800. Then there was a special item of a little over $2,000 for counsel fees in the appeal to the Privy Council of the Companies Act, which was not provided for in the Main Estimates, and that makes up the extra amount for contingencies.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What was
the date of the appeal?


Arthur Bliss Copp: Judgment was given on the 25th February, 1921, and the appeal was heard before that.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Expenses under Naturalization Acts, 1914, and 1920-further amount required, $22,715.
Thomas Alexander Crerar: Will the hon. minister
explain this item?


Arthur Bliss Copp: The Royal Canadian Northwest Mounted Police conducted investigations from May, 1920, to October, 1921, amounting to $24,823.13, and that is provided for in this item.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: What was the nature
of the investigation they carried on?


Arthur Bliss Copp: Before naturalization certificates were issued to any applicant, they were referred to the Mounted Police for investigation and the investigations were made by that body and reported back to the department, and on their reports the certificates are granted or refused.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Is that done in all
cases where there'is application for naturalization certificate?


Arthur Bliss Copp: It is only when the department thinks it is necessary. When it is considered unnecessary, the certificates are issued without investigation.


Mr. PARENT:: In what part of the
country has this taken place in the past?


Arthur Bliss Copp: They have carried on in
all parts of Canada. When any question arises in the minds of the officials of the department, and it is thought an investigation is necessary in any part of Canada, the investigations are carried on by that organization.


Mrb PARENT:: I could not readily
understand the answer of the minister, but apparently he has the report from his deputy, stating where this has been done in the past. We would like to know about it.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I may say that unfortunately we have not the details of every individual case, because each report in the particular
file pertains to a particular man._There
are something like fifteen or twenty thousand cases which have been investigated, but they are in individual files, and it is impossible to have them here to give my hon. friend the details of each individual case and where it is located.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: You do not mean to
state that this expenditure covers fifteen or twenty thousand individual cases.


Arthur Bliss Copp: The average expense in each case is 97 cents.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Cheap naturalization.


William Charles Good: On what ground does the
department send the inspectors to make these investigations?


Arthur Bliss Copp: We cannot lay down any
definite rule as to what they act upon. When the officials of the department consider an investigation should be held before a certificate is granted or refused, an investigation is held and a report obtained from the officials, and it is reported back to the department.


Mr. CAMPBELL:: A good deal of the
work has been done in the prairie provinces, and I have come in contact with a good deal of it myself. I see no particular fault to find with the system. The Mounted Police are very efficient; they travel out to these people's homes, inspect their houses, find out if their children are going to school, do other necessary work like that, and make a recommendation, based on the facts which they have ascertained, whether they consider these people are desirable citizens or not.
Item agreed to-
Supply-State

Adjustment of war claims-Secretary of State -further amount required, $10,000.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Will the minister kindly explain this item?


Arthur Bliss Copp: This appropriation is required for the expenses of the clearing office in connection with alien enemy property. This clearing office was transferred to the Department of the Secretary of State. The amount of $50,000 that was appropriated last year was insufficient to carry on the work. The estimate last year was largely a guess, because it was impossible to get a correct idea of what this work would cost.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: What is the total amount of alien enemy property in the custody in the department?


Arthur Bliss Copp: It would be impossible to
tell that accurately, because it would depend upon what the property might be valued at and what it might be sold at. We have on hand a great deal of property that has not yet been valued or sold.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Do I understand that
no estimate has so far been made of the value of the whole property?


Arthur Bliss Copp: As I say, it would be a
mere estimate. I do not know whether an estimate has been made of the value of the whole property or not, but we have an estimate of a considerable portion of the property. I am informed that, originally, the estimate amounted to about $30,000,000; but on a revaluation, as after careful investigation, releases have had to be given of some property claimed, the estimate is now $20,000,000.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Is any charge made
against this property for the administration of it?


Arthur Bliss Copp: The cost of administering this property is eventually taken from the property, with the exception that the cost of the clearing office is paid for out of the ordinary revenue of the country.


Mr. MACLEAN (York) :: Were any
shares of the Canadian Pacific railway seized, and, if so, to what extent?


Arthur Bliss Copp: Shares of Canadian Pacific stock to the number of 140,000 are now vested with the custodian.


William Findlay Maclean: What is the intention of the Government in regard to that? Is it a matter of trial, or for de-

termination by some law officer, whether the property is to remain in the hands of the custodian or go back to some one?


Arthur Bliss Copp: That matter is under consideration, and it will take some time to settle the question so as to enable me to give my hon. friend a direct answer.


William Findlay Maclean: Would it not be better for the committee to have the details, especially as to property connected with a great enterprise like the Canadian Pacific?


Arthur Bliss Copp: We are willing to give all the details. My hon. friend has perfect freedom to go through the department and get all the information regarding this matter, or I will gladly bring down in the House any information that he desires. We are only handling the property as custodians for future determination as to who owns it.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Is this property not held against the reparation claims made under the peace treaty against our late enemies?


Arthur Bliss Copp: It may be under the treaty, but it has not been decided yet that it will be.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: With whom lies the decision in the matter?


Arthur Bliss Copp: I presume it will be the policy of the governments of different nations which have taken part and which are interested. The question has not yet been decided. The Government, I believe, asked that claims be filed in regard to the matter; but the question as to what will be done as regards claims that have been made has not yet been decided.


William Findlay Maclean: What, roughly, is the amount of claims that have been filed by citizens of Canada against aliens? And will Canadian creditors be protected by this fund?


Arthur Bliss Copp: I am informed that claims amounting to about $23,500,000 have been filed by Canadian citizens.


William Findlay Maclean: Has any settlement been made with Canadian creditors out of moneys in the custody of the Government?	*


Arthur Bliss Copp: No settlements have been
made with regard to reparations.


William Findlay Maclean: They may not be reparations. Canadian creditors of aliens have these claims, and the Govern-

Supply-Miscellaneous
ment has this property in its custody. Has any effort been made to protect Canadian creditors by selling or using this alien property for the discharge of these claims?


Arthur Bliss Copp: Creditors are paid as soon as settlements are effected between the clearing offices in the two countries. Certainly a number of claims have already been settled and paid, and others will be as soon as settlements are effected between the clearing offices.


Mr. ANDERSON:: Have any claims
against Russia been dealt with?


Arthur Bliss Copp: They have not.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Department of Public Archives-contingencies, further amount required, $8,070.67.
Arthur Meighen: What is the explanation of this item?


Arthur Bliss Copp: This is largely for printing
required by the Archives branch during the past year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Miscellaneous - Public Archives - further amount required, $7,600.
Thomas Alexander Crerar: What is that for?


Arthur Bliss Copp: This was for the purchase of certain documents in England, authorized about a year ago by the Prime Minister. The sum of $20,000 was authorized for the purpose of purchasing what are known as the Monckton papers.


Arthur Meighen: The explanation does not recall anything to my mind.


Arthur Bliss Copp: An amount of $20,000 was authorized but was not all used.


Arthur Meighen: Was it not included in the vote of a year ago?


Arthur Bliss Copp: The authority was given
after the close of the session.


Arthur Meighen: How much was spent?


Arthur Bliss Copp: About $3,000.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: What is the nature of the documents?


Arthur Bliss Copp: They are very valuable historical documents relating to General Robert Monckton, at one time governor of the province of Nova Scotia. The rest of the money was used for the purchase of other manuscripts and books in England which are now in the archives. Hon. members may refer to them at any time.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Paper Control Inquiry-amount required to pay a balance of $200, to each of the three Commissioners, $600.
William Stevens Fielding: This is to pay $200 to each of three judges, whose names I do not know, for services in connection with the Paper Control Inquiry.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This is an item that has been outstanding for some time past.


William Stevens Fielding: It was authorized by Order in Council of October 26, 1920.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: And the money has not so far been paid?


William Stevens Fielding: I assume it has not yet been paid. At any rate, it should not be paid until parliamentary authority has been given.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Grant towards expenses of Imperial Convention of Teachers in Toronto, Summer of 1921, $1,500.
William Stevens Fielding: Dr. James L. Hughes, of Toronto, on behalf of the Teacher's Association, represented to us that the right hon. the late Prime Minister had given him assurance of this aid, and to honour the engagement of the right hon. gentleman we put in this item.


Arthur Meighen: I think there is a
slight over-statement in the matter. I do recall a conversation with Dr. Hughes in which I stated that up to a certain amount consideration would be given, and that I would lay the matter before my colleagues. I make no objection to the appropriation, but I made no binding engagement of any kind. It is only right, however, that the grant should be given.


William Stevens Fielding: Desirous of having things done in good form, I asked for evidence and my right hon. friend's letter was produced, wherein he gave the assurance-at least I would call it an assurance-that aid to the extent of $1,500 would be given. Accordingly, taking it for granted that the representation was correct, we included this item in the estimates.


Arthur Meighen: The letter I wrote is an exact reflection of what I have stated.


John Warwick King: Perhaps I
might read the letter:
Ottawa, Ontario, August 30th, 1921. Dear Doctor Hughes,
I regret very much that your letter of August 11th got mislaid. As explained in previous letters, it is not usual and, indeed, might be said to be unprecedented, to make grants for putrevised edition

Supply-Customs
poses of educational conventions. However, the circumstances of yours are somewhat exceptional. We could not make any grant now, but 1 will submit for the Estimates next session a figure, and, while I cannot undertake that it pass and be submitted to Parliament,-


Arthur Meighen: Hear, hear.


John Warwick King: -X feel that I will be able to recommend it t conscientiously to my colleagues. I would not like recommending more than $1,500 at the outside.


Arthur Meighen: I would ask that that be compared with what I said a few moments ago from memory, and I think there will not be found to he the slightest difference.


William Stevens Fielding: My right hon. friend said just now that he had made no engagement. I would consider a letter of that kind as an engagement.


Arthur Meighen: I did not undertake
that.anything would be paid; I said that I would submit the matter to my colleagues.


Jacques Bureau: It might be called a diplomatic engagement.


William Stevens Fielding: I am not complaining at all that my right hon. friend made such an engagement, and we are only too glad to honour it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Department of Customs and Excise-to provide for the salary of one Private Secretary from January 1, to March 31, 1922, at $3,360 per annum, $840.
Thomas Alexander Crerar: Explain.


Jacques Bureau: The estimate explains itself. I did not suppose my hon. friend would have me think that he could not understand it, and that is why I did not volunteer an explanation.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs and Excise-Miscellaneous-Printing, stationery and publications for Inland Revenue Service for fiscal year 1920-21, $51,017.26-Gratuity to James Connor, formerly Customs Officer at Snow Flake, Manitoba, $125.
Georges Parent: Where was this printing done, and to what company or private individuals was it given?


Jacques Bureau: I am unable to give the information. These hills were left at the time of the reorganization of the Department of Customs and Excise was carried out. The assignment of the various officers from one department to the other did

not take place soon enough. The money was voted last year, hut the fiscal year expired before these bills were checked and approved, and consequently we had to ask for a re-vote of the money. I think the printing must have been done at the government printing bureau.


Mr. BROWN:: What is the gratuity to James Connor?


Jacques Bureau: He was notified of his dismissal three days after he was dismissed; that was on the 1st of October, 1918, I understand.


Andrew Ross McMaster: Why did he not go if he knew he was going?


Jacques Bureau: He only knew he was going away three days after he was gone.


John Livingstone Brown: How long was Connor in the service, and what were the circumstances of his dismissal?


Jacques Bureau: He was at Snow Flake, and his services were dispensed with on 1st October, 1918, but he did not receive notice until three days later, and he therefore made a claim for compensation. This matter was brought to the attention of the House by Mr. Richardson in 1920, as will be found at page 2590 of Hansard for that year, and it was decided that his dismissal should be investigated. The investigation was conducted by Mr. Stevenson, chief inspector of the Crown Timber Office, Department of the Interior, who recommended that in view of Mr. Connor's long and faithful service he be given a gratuity of two months' wages, amounting to $125. This recommendation was approved by the Minister of Customs and Inland Revenue at the time.


John Livingstone Brown: Is there nothing in the correspondence to indicate the cause of his dismissal?


Jacques Bureau: There may he, but I
have not the correspondence here. If the hon. gentleman wants to see the correspondence he can put a question on the Order Paper and I will see that it is brought down.


Henry Lumley Drayton: We have different reasons advanced from time to time why items are included in these supplementary estimates. My hon. friend, the Minister of Customs, has given us a particular reason in this case. He points out that there were delays in the reorganization of the department, that there was a proper vote from which these payments could be

Supply-Customs
made, but that they were not made because the accounts had not been checked and approved before the end of the last fiscal year. I understand that the purpose of these estimates is not to make good departmental faults, neglects or delays, but to provide for payments which have not been provided for in the main estimates of the year and have since become necessary. It seems to be quite obvious that this is not a vote of that character, and ought not to be included in these supplementary estimates. The Minister of Finance will appreciate that point.


Jacques Bureau: I think that expenditure incurred last year, and not paid, ought not to be in the main estimates this year, but in the supplementary. In this case, instead of being short of funds, this item is due to the fact, as explained by the officers of the department, that the reorganization was not carried through in sufficient time for these accounts to be checked up and approved before the expiration of the fiscal year, 1920-21. Therefore it was necessary to have this amount voted before payment could be made. I think that is a proper item to come under the supplementary estimates.


Henry Lumley Drayton: It is pretty hard to say where the main estimates end and the supplementary estimates begin, and I suppose it is quite fair to give due appreciation to the position of my hon. friends. They seem to be cleaning up everything that has gone behind; they are making quite sure that everything that can be charged up will be charged up here.


William Stevens Fielding: Would not that be quite correct?


Henry Lumley Drayton: 
Jacques Bureau: Does my hon. friend take exception to this particular item?


Henry Lumley Drayton: Yes.


Jacques Bureau: In what way would he
pay it?


Henry Lumley Drayton: Through this year's main estimates.


Jacques Bureau: For expenditure incurred and bills rendered last year?


Henry Lumley Drayton: You allowed the vote to go. -	-


Jacques Bureau: Then, what is the use
of supplementary estimates?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I don't agree with my
hon. friend the late Minister of Finance (Sir Henry Drayton) in the position he is taking on this vote. I think that expenditures incurred in the past year should be distinctly set out by themselves, and not included in the main estimates for the current year. It would be a rather dangerous practice to follow the course he suggests.


William Stevens Fielding: It is certainly very
desirable that the expenditures of the year should be covered by the estimates for that year; but still if there is an unpaid account, what are you to do with it? The only thing to do is to bring it forward in the next estimates you are presenting. If the account is not paid it is better to provide for its payment than to let it wait another year.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Suppose we
apply that rule to the item of $25,000 for the Genoa conference, it would drop.


William Stevens Fielding: I do not know what
money has been drawn in connection with that item. The gentlemen may have taken the money with them, they may have needed it. I would have to inquire as to what amount was drawn. If you want to be strictly accurate you could cut it in two pieces and say that part shall come in one year and part in another year, but it is better not to take two bites at a cherry.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Not at all,
if you can load the "cherry" in one direction, as it has been loaded. My point is perfectly clear. The minister is correct
1676	COMMONS
Supply-Marine and Fisheries
when he says: This must be charged in this particular account, notwithstanding the fact that a proper appropriation was made by Parliament for that purpose which my officials have overlooked, simply because the work was done that year. I am pointing out that in the same estimates you have an item-there may be others-which rests entirely on work to be done in the next fiscal year. Both principles cannot be right.


William Stevens Fielding: I think part of that
appropriation would be used during the current year. I am not sure but what it might have been wise to divide in into two sums, but at the time the Governor General's warrant was granted it was made in one sum. Whether we should divide it in two and apply part to this year and part to next year would be a fair matter for consideration. After all, these are not accounts that we are presenting; they are appropriations, and in this case it is an appropriation to cover the whole service.


Mr. LEWIS:: The minister has said that owing to the long and faithful service of this man and his summary dismissal, it was decided to give him the sum of $125. In 1905, when I was in Snow Flake, that gentleman was in that same position, and I understood then that he had been fulfilling those duties for quite a number of years. It is evident, therefore, that when he was dismissed he had occupied the position for nearly twenty years. I do not know whether or not he would have been entitled to pension if he had completed twenty years of service, but it does seem to me that $125, amounting to practically two months' salary, Is not sufficient to give to a man under circumstances such as these. I do not know why he was dismissed-* whether it was to make room for a political appointment or not. But when a man has given faithful service for so long a time, and when after investigation it has been decided that he should be given a gratuity, $125 does not seem to be an adequate amount to give him upon his summary dismissal.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Department of Marine and Fisheries- to provide for one private secretary from January 1st, to March 31st,
1922, at $3,360 per annum	 $ 840
To provide for one secretary to executive at $1,860 per annum	 310
Contingencies - further amount required	 5,000
Arthur Meighen: What is the "Executive" to which the second secretary named here is appointed?


Ernest Lapointe: "Secretary to Executive" is the title adopted by the Civil Service Commission in the classification. The duties are those of assistant secretary.


Arthur Meighen: What are the contingencies?


Ernest Lapointe: The appropriation of
1920-	21 was overdrawn by about $3,000, and it will require $2,000 more to cover the balance of expenditure for 1921-22. The department explains that the sum of $6,500, which was over-expended in 1920-21, was carried over to the fiscal year 1921-22, thus reducing the actual appropriation for
1921- 22.	This amount was spent last year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Ocean and river service-to provide for the temporary relief of distressed seamen and to cover expenses of shipping forms, further amount required, $11,000.
Ernest Lapointe: Large numbers of destitute Canadian seamen in the United Kingdom have been repatriated to Canada by the British Board of Trade. The expenses thus incurred have been unusually large. There will be no necessity for further large expenditures of this kind, the abnormal conditions of shipping since the war, which have been responsible for there being so many destitute Canadian seamen in the United Kingdom, having now passed.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There was no item in the main estimates last year to cover this?


Ernest Lapointe: No, I understand this item covers the expenses incurred by the British Board of Trade 'over a period of three or four years.


Arthur Meighen: Was an obligation entered into to pay this amount, and if so, when?


Ernest Lapointe: It has always been done, as my right hon. friend will understand. There is an agreement-at least, it is a custom-that the British Board of Trade takes charge of distressed Canadian seamen and the Canadian Government pays for the services thus rendered.


William Duff: Is it not a fact that the owners of the ships repay the department for the moneys expended on this account?


Ernest Lapointe: They do, when it is possible to claim the amounts from them.

Supply-Marine and Fisheries


Arthur Meighen: The money, then, will come back?


Ernest Lapointe: Perhaps in this case, the conditions being due to the war, it may be more difficult than usual to claim the repayment of the money.


Arthur Meighen: But if it does come back it will come under the hon. gentleman's receipts, though when it goes out it is charged against the late government's disbursements.


Ernest Lapointe: I shall be glad to give my right hon. friend credit for it.


Arthur Meighen: The minister will not have the power, no matter how glad he will be, in his way of being glad.


Ernest Lapointe: Yes, but it is a good thing to be glad in life.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lighthouse and coast service-to provide for breaking ice in Thunder bay, Lake Superior and other points deemed advisable for the good of navigation, further amount required, $16,000.
Ernest Lapointe: This further amount is required to meet the claim made by the Canadian Towing and Wrecking Company, Limited, of Port Arthur, Ontario, for services of the ice-breaker James Whalen during the spring of 1918. This company was instructed by the department to proceed with ice-breaking work in the spring of 1918 on a basis of cost. A claim for $50,000 was made and the department paid $18,750. The
5 p.m. company refused to accept this amount in full of account. It was claimed that no provision was made for cost repairs to the ice-breaker due to extremely heavy ice, and that the company suffered considerable financial loss, as owing to her being retained on this work a very favourable offer for the boat had to be refused. After discussion, the company offered to accept $16,000 in full of their claim for the balance of $31,250, without prejudice, and the Department of Marine is of the opinion that payment should be made on this basis, in view of the facts. I may add that this arrangement was made September or October last. I have no doubt that the settlement is good.


Arthur Meighen: When was the settlement made for the payment of $16,000 in full?


Ernest Lapointe: In September or October last.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: How long had the claim bean outstanding?


Ernest Lapointe: Since 1918. Part of the claim had been paid, but there was a further claim for $31,250. The company agreed to accept $16,000 in full, and the department agreed to pay that amount.


Mr. McGONICA:: Would the minister tell us if this is to be in full settlement of all claims? I understood him to say it was accepted without prejudice.


Arthur Meighen: Offered without prejudice.


Thomas Henry McConica: Oh, offered without prejudice? Is it to be accepted in full settlement?


Ernest Lapointe: Yes. In full of their claim.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Adjustment of War Claims. Marine and Fisheries (Governor General's Warrants November 9, 1921, and March 8, 1921), $70,837.90.
Thomas Alexander Crerar: What is the explanation of this?


Ernest Lapointe: This amount was expended for legal costs, expert accountants, etc., in connection with the claim of the Dominion Iron and Steel Company for damages resulting from the cancellation of the contract between the department and the company by which the latter agreed to furnish 50,000 to 75,000 tons of steel plates per annum for a period of five years. The company started furnishing in March, 1920, and the contract was cancelled by Order in Council on 18th February, 1921.


Arthur Meighen: Were the legal accounts taxed by the officers of the Justice Department, and if so are these details in accordance with the amounts so taxed?


Ernest Lapointe: Well, I surmise they were taxed. All the Department of Marine and Fisheries had to do was to pay the amount as sent to it by the Department of Justice.


William Duff: Could the minister tell us what the amount of damages paid to the Iron and Steel Company was?


Ernest Lapointe: The case, I understand, is still pending. An amount of $3,000,000 has been paid to the Dominion Iron and Steel Company in virtue of an agreement. The agreement would be final if the Government were paying a further amount of, I think, $1,600,000. This amount has not been paid and the case is pending.
1678	COMMONS
Supply-Marine and Fisheries


William Duff: When was the $3,000,000 paid, does the minister know?


Ernest Lapointe: I cannot say the exact date. I think it was some time in December last.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Was the $3,000,000 paid by way of damages?


Ernest Lapointe: Yes, by way of damages.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: What value did the Government get for it?


William Duff: None.


Ernest Lapointe: Well, it is a long story. The case, as I say, is still pending. Of course, if an amount of less than $3,000,000 was granted by the court the Government would have a claim against the company for reimbursement for part of that sum.


Arthur Meighen: The minister might add that the amount was paid on the strong recommendation of the Justice Department, of the officers of the department who were engaged in the litigation.


Ernest Lapointe: I agree that the attorney for the Department of Justice in the case, I think, Mr. Meredith of Montreal, recommended the settlement.


Arthur Meighen: And the Deputy Minister of Justice.


Ernest Lapointe: I think so.


William Duff: Was' this $3,000,000 paid under the present administration or under the previous government?


Ernest Lapointe: The previous government.


Arthur Meighen: But the balance will be paid by the present administration.


William Stevens Fielding: If the court says so.


Thomas Henry McConica: Would the minister tell us what the status of the Government will be if this amount is paid? Does this wind the business up?


Ernest Lapointe: Oh, no.


Thomas Henry McConica: What is the idea of making two bites of a cherry?


Henry Lumley Drayton: It is not a cherry but a peach.


Andrew Ross McMaster: It is a bitter pill.


Ernest Lapointe: I understand the solicitors for the Department of Justice had
[M>- I.apointe.l
to employ engineers and expert accountants both Canadian and American. They have to be paid as soon as their work is completed.


Mr. LANCTOT:: Who were the lawyers that defended the case for the Government?


Ernest Lapointe: Mr. F. E. Meredith,
K.C. of Montreal.


Roch Lanctôt: The Department of
Justice has ten or twelve lawyers on its staff, why should it employ outside lawyers to plead for the government? I would like to see an end to that practice. We are paying enough money to lawyers in the department without having recourse to outside help?


Ernest Lapointe: I am not supposed to speak for the Department of Justice, but my hon. friend will understand that the lawyers who are employed there attend to the internal work of the department- they do not usually plead before the courts on behalf of the department.


William Duff: I would ask the minister if this matter is still unsettled, and whether this $3,000,000 was paid to the company before the litigation was decided?


Ernest Lapointe: It is still unsettled.


William Duff: And this $3,000,000 was paid before the litigation was decided?


Ernest Lapointe: As I explained to my hon. friend, an agreement was entered into between the government and the company by which the company accepted, I think, $4,600,000 as a settlement. The government had to give its final answer accepting that agreement one month after the first $3,000,000 was paid-they were paid on account at the price set out in the agreement. If after one month the balance was not paid the agreement was cancelled altogether, and that is what has happened. The case is still before the courts.


William Duff: It seems to me a rather strange procedure for the late government to pay $3,000,000 to any company in Canada for damages while the suit was still in course of settlement?


Arthur Meighen: Referring to the remarks of the hon. member for Laprairie (Mr. Lanctot) as to the engagement of outside counsel I quite agree with the minister that it is necessary to go outside very often for counsel; but I would recommend to the hon. member that he continue his pressure regularly, insistently,

Supply-Marine and Fisheries
and increasingly because it will probably be needed.


Roch Lanctôt: I will.


Arthur Meighen: As to the remarks of the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff), if he will refer back some years- many years in fact, particularly between 1896 and 1911-he will find many cases of settlement in that period. This, however, was not a case of settlement. The company offered to settle at a certain amount which counsel for the government and the officers of the Justice Department recommended. I think the amount was what the minister says, $4,600,000, and their claim was in the neighbourhood of $10,000,000,- I cannot recall the exact amount. There was no question in the judgment of ourselves, or in the judgment of anyone engaged in the case, that the company had suffered very considerably but it was essential, it could not be helped. They were out of the money and as a consequence there was a very considerable lack of proceeding in their work, and although we were recommended, and strongly recommended, by our own officers to settle for $4,600,000 we took this step: We paid the $3,000,000 to enable them to go on witn their work without which they would not have been able to go on, and we left it to the incoming government to decide whether they would accept the settlement by paying the balance, or whether they would go on with the litigation. As to which course they should pursue I have nothing to say. They have decided to go on with the litigation and the court will decide whether there is any balance and, if so, what it is. I submit the proceeding was right, particularly in the interest of the territory affected and in the interest of all concerned.


William Duff: The leader of the Opposition (Mr. Meighen) desires me to run backwards to 1896. This is the year of our Lord, 1922. I do not intend to run forward and backward. We should settle this matter on its merits this year. If the Dominion Iron and Steel Company had a claim against this Government, no money should have been paid until that claim was settled by litigation, or compromise, or some other way. If the Government owed the Dominion Iron and Steel Company this money, they should have had the courage of their convictions, and should have paid, not $3,000,000, but $4,600,000. That would have been the business way. But, as in everything else they did, they compromised the matter, and paid the Dominion Iron and
Steel on November 25, 1921, just three weeks before the election, the sum of $3,000,000; and then, knowing that they were not going to be elected, left the balance to be settled by the new government.


Roch Lanctôt: I want to come back to the lawyers. The Department of Justice has about ten lawyers at least, and my right hon. friend, the leader of the Opposition (Mr. Meighen), told the House that sometimes we have to go outside for lawyers. I am a farmer as hon. members know, and if I have ten employees, and have some work to do outside my farm, I take a few of my employees outside to do the work. I understand in this case the hearing was in Ottawa and the court sat in Ottawa. Why could they not take a couple of lawyers from the Department of Justice to defend the action? Why go outside and pay $70,000 for counsel? Someone refers to the fact that it was just before the election, and that the $3,000,000 was paid during the election campaign. Why not wait until after the election? That is the part of it that I do not understand. When my hon. friend advises me to watch this Government, my answer is that I will do so.


Arthur Meighen: I must say, for the poor, much assailed lawyer, that this item is not for legal fees, except to a small extent. I would presume, from what I have read in regard to the Grand Trunk Arbitration case, that a great part of this item would be engineers' fees, disbursements for engineers, actuaries and so on, and I would recommend to the hon. member that, if it is money he is seeking in life, he should take one of those professions.


Roch Lanctôt: I am not seeking for money at all.


Arthur Meighen: If he intends to get into the government employ-


Roch Lanctôt: I do not care for money.
Mr.- MEIGHEN: It is the late government who are responsible for whatever selections were made of counsel in that action. I only address this remark to the hon. gentleman: this was an action for a tremendous sum of money. The government encounters such actions and will do so, because government is a big enterprise. If the government is to keep in the Justice Department sufficient counsel of capacity to do justice to actions of this sort, they will pay salaries to which the hon. member for Laprairie and Napier-
Supply-Interio-r

ville (Mr. Lanctot) will raise considerable objection under the civil government estimates.


Roch Lanctôt: I think they have too many now.


Arthur Meighen: It is not a case of too many. It is a case of the calibre, the capacity of men that will be required for this character of action. I do not reflect for one moment on the officers of the Justice Department; so far as I have come in contact with them, I say that they are hard working and competent. There are, doubtless, one or two capable of taking charge of almost any action; certainly the deputy minister is; but no deputy minister living, and, to my mind, no two or three of them, could ever take care of the amount of large and important litigation that inevitably falls on the Justice Department.


Roch Lanctôt: I do not complain of the capacity of the deputy minister, but if there are too many who are incapable, why not employ a good one who is capable of defending all cases?


Ernest Lapointe: My hon. friend is against lawyers on general principles.


Mr. KENNEDY (Edmonton) :: On what does the Dominion Iron and Steel Company base its claim?


Ernest Lapointe: The Dominion Iron and Steel Company had a contract with the government. The government agreed to buy a quantity of steel, about 50,000 tons a year, during five years, and, in consideration of that undertaking by the government, the company built a special manufacturing plant, at a cost of $5,000,000. Of course, the government bought steel during the first year of the agreement, but the war came to an end, and it was considered by the late government that no further quantity was required, and they cancelled the contract. On the other hand, the company had incurred a big expenditure in the building of that manufacturing plant, and they filed a claim for damages of that amount.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Department of Interior-contingencies-further amount required, $32,000.
Arthur Meighen: What is this?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The sum of $45,-
000 was provided in the Estimates for the fiscal year 1921-22 for the payment of
[Mr. Meighen. 1
printing and stationery accounts, but the amount required is estimated to be $77,000 for that service, leaving an amount of $32,000 to be voted. The estimate is madeup as follows:
Accounts for April and May 1921.. $11,022 66
" June 1921	 8,646 04
[DOT]*	"	July 1921	
7,216	35"	"	August 1921	
6,312	39"	"	Se-ptember	1921	..	..	8,759	89**	"	October 1921	
7,118	81"	"	November	1921	..	..	3,632	30"	**	December	1921	..	..	4,886	15"	"	January 1922	..	..	5,488	53
Estimated amount required for
February and March, 1922	 13,916 88
Total	$77,000 00
Less-amount already voted in estimates	 45,000 00
Amount to be voted	$32,000 00


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This seems to be a very
large expenditure for stationery and printing in one department of the government. I am not objecting to the vote, but merely drawing attention to the fact. It seems to me that an expenditure of $77,000 in 12 months for printing and stationery is one that can be properly looked into, with a view to bringing about reduction in another year.


John Warwick King: The money is needed to pay for books of various descriptions, such as index books for the registration branch, land patent record books, etc., for file backs, special paper for patents, printed forms, the purchase of typewriters and stationery required for the general use of the inside service at Ottawa. There are over 250 typewriters constantly in use in the inside service, and the cost of repairs and supplies connected with the same amounts to a very large figure each year. It may be added that it is a most difficult problem to estimate fifteen months ahead, with any degree of accuracy, what the requirements for this item will be for an organization such as the Department of the Interior.


Arthur Meighen: I agree wholly with
the hon. gentleman from Marquette (Mr. Crerar). I am not making any criticism of the Government or the Prime Minister in advancing this request. I really do not think there is just excuse at all for the department putting in an estimate for a specific item like that $45,000, and then actually spending $77,000. No doubt the proportion spent under the late government is just as great as the proportion spent under this Government, but it seems to me

Supply-Interior
the minister should bring to the attention of his office the fact that an estimate is an estimate, and that they have no right to go beyond it, without the written authority of the minister of the department.


John Warwick King: I agree with my hon. friend. The item all relates to the last year.


Arthur Meighen: Yes, I did not try to
make a point against the Government. The Prime Minister's Government was in office three months of the last year. I stated that there was just as large a proportion before as after; it applies equally to both governments. I think it is the officer of the department who is at fault.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Government of the Yukon Territory-to pay salaries and expenses connected with the administration of the territory, further n mount refill i rod (Governor General's warrant, December X, 1921), $25,000.
Roch Lanctôt: Will the Prime Minister kindly explain this item?


John Warwick King: The amount
voted for this service was $35,000, being only one-half of the amount appropriated for 1920-21. This reduction was decided upon in anticipation of certain retrenchments which are being carried out. A number of changes in the personnel has already been dealt with, but as the officials who are being retired will have to be paid the amount of	their accumulated
leave which will mean the carrying of their names on the pay-list up to very near the end of the fiscal year, the situation will not be very materially affected. As there was no money left to pay salaries, etc., an Order in Council was passed on the 1st December, P.C. No. 4462, recommending that authority be granted for the issue of a Governor General's warrant.


Roch Lanctôt: I understand there is
a reduction for this year.


Arthur Meighen: The reorganization
or rearrangement made effects economies that will result in the year 1922-23. I would have expected a word of gratitude from the Prime Minister that we took in hand that work and arranged for economies of which he will derive the benefit.


Mr. MACDONALD (Pictou) :: How much economy does the right bom. gentleman expect to result from the rearrangement he made?


Arthur Meighen: The economy he expected was $25,000 in this respect alone; but there were many others in the Interior Department than that in this special item.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I recall, about four years ago, when I was last in the House of Commons, endeavouring to arrive at some statement as to how muteh of the money of the rest of the people of Canada was being spent in this far-away corner of Canada. I think the population consists of eight or nine thousand people.


Arthur Meighen: Four thousand.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The
amount spent at that time was away over $1,000,000 for all purposes. When one reflects that, in any part of this country, $1,000,000 of the money of the Canadian people is 'being spent to maintain law and order amongst a population of 4,000, it seems to me the time for drastic economy should arise. There is no sense in keeping up a panoply of government, a commissioner, courts and all these officials in a district to look after
4,000	people. Such a state of affairs seem absurd and ridiculous. It may be said that we ought to provide for future conditions in that territory; but when the time arrives, if we have a large population, we can then expend the money. But when you have a subsidy of $250 apiece for the 4,000 people in the country, it seems to me the matter might well be inquired into.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dominion Lands and Parks,-
Canadian National parks, further amount required (Governor General's warrants, August 13, 1921, October 17, 1921 and November 12, 1921), $166,500.
To pay the corporation of the city of Ottawa for local improvements on streets fronting on ordnance lands. $2,629.24.
To pay the Clarke Trading Company for transportation of supplies to the inhabitants of the North Shore, Quebec province, $1,500.
William Duff: What is this large amount? In the general estimates we have a very large amount for Dominion parks, and this is a very large amount in the Supplementary Estimates. I notice that this amount was spent last year by Governor General's warrant. What is the reason?


John Warwick King: An amount of $115,000 was provided in the Estimates for the fiscal years 1921-22 in connection with work on the Banff-Windermere highway in Kootenay park, British Columbia. About the middle of August this amount was ex-
Supply-Interior

hausted and as the minister considered it desirable to carry on operations until late in the fall rather than close down the work and force approximately 140 men out of employment, an Order in Council was passed on the 13th August, 1921, P.C. 2917, recommending that a Governor General's warrant should issue for the sum of $50,000. With this extra amount, an additional twelve miles of road was constructed and nine miles of clearing of the right of way was completed.
By an agreement with the British Columbia government executed in 1919, the Dominion government agreed to complete this road by January, 1924, and to ensure the fufilment of this agreement, it was considered advisable in the month of October to continue operations as long as winter conditions would permit, and an Order in Council was passed on the 17th October, 1921, P.C. 3892, recommending that a Governor General's warrant should issue for a further sum of $16,500. With the additional work done, there is every possibility that the roads will be completed in 1922, and that Canada will begin to derive benefits from the increased tourist revenue in the season of 1922-23, as this is the only uncompleted section of what is probably the most spectacular automobile route in the world, namely: an international circuit highway connecting the Pacific coast, the Grand Canyon of Colorado, Yellowstone and Glacier parks of the United States and all the various cities of the southwestern states with Banff and the Canadian National parks. It is estimated that the first year that this highway is open will increase Canada's tourist revenue by some three million dollars.
In view of the unemployment which existed in the West during the late fall and the possibility of its continuing throughout the winter months, the question of providing employment on necessary construction works in the different parks was carefully considered, and as the working organizations in the various parks, and as the field engineering forces were such that the different works could be economically carried on, an Order in Council was passed on the 12th November, 1921, P.C. No. 4319, recommending that a Governor General's warrant should issue for the sum of $100,000. This provided work for approximately 215 men for a period of four months during a time when such employment was necessary to relieve possible distress.


Roch Lanctôt: To keep the men busy during the last campaign.


Arthur Meighen: The suspicious member will note that the decision was arrived at long before there was any decision for a campaign. He is a little off the mark. This is something for which we take full responsibility, and the explanation given by the Prime Minister is precisely the explanation that actuated the late government in its decision. We intended to perform a certain amount of work last year and we provided the money for the purpose. Owing to two considerations, the primary one being the need of providing employment in that district and particularly from Calgary where the need was very great-and I am sure, had the hon. member (Mr. Lanetot) seen the petitions that we received and learned the facts that we learned, he would have done everything he could to have relieved the conditions-we decided to go on further. It was a work that had to be done and one that would provide a revenue as soon as, or sooner than, any other work that we could have performed. It was work in which practically all of the money was going to the labouring man; it was work on this highway that had been going on during the summer. As the Prime Minister says, the anticipated revenue to the people of Canada from that road when completed is expected in the first year to be $3,000,000. It surely was the part of wisdom to utilize the occasion and give the work when it was most needed, in view of the fact that the revenue would come so soon. I hope, in the course we took, we shall have the support of the Minister of Labour (Mr. Murdock) because, if there is anything he should be interested in, it is this. This is a case where unemployment was relieved, and not where it was promised and left unrelieved.


William Duff: I notice by the main estimates that in 1921-22 the sum of $800,000 was voted for Canadian National parks. For the same purpose we are asked to vote, if I remember the Prime Minister's statement rightly, $150,000 for extra moneys spent by the late government. The leader of the Opposition (Mr. Meighen) gives, as the reason for an expenditure of almost a million dollars, the fact that it gave employment.


Arthur Meighen: Oh, no. My hon. friend has mistaken the figures. I forget what the Prime Minister gave as the amount of the appropriation, but the hon. member is astray.

Supply-Interior


John Warwick King: 


William Duff: Yes; that makes $915,000 altogether, practically a million dollars.


Arthur Meighen: Where does my hon. friend get the balance of the million dollars? There is $115,000 and $166,000 odd. The hon. gentleman's arithmetic is a little weak this afternoon.


William Duff: No, it is not; in fact, it is not nearly so weak as my right hon. friend's has been during the last few years. His arithmetic has been very weak, otherwise the country would not be in its present financial position. The right hon. gentleman is more to blame for the present financial position of the country than any other man.


Arthur Meighen: But the Government says that the country's financial condition is good.


William Duff: Well, the Government are wrong when they say that.


George Perry Graham: That is prophetic.


William Duff: If the leader of the Opposition will turn to page 57 of the Main Estimates he will see that in 1921-22 $800,000 was voted. We shall see whose arithmetic is wrong.


Arthur Meighen: All right.


John Warwick King: Part of that $800,000 was for salaries and part for administration, and the $115,000 I have already mentioned was for the roads themselves.


William Duff: Does the Prime Minister mean to say that there was some $685,000 spent for salaries and administration?


Arthur Meighen: The amount spent on this road for everything is $115,000. The hon. member is referring to the Banff-Windermere road, and the amount in last year's estimates for this work was as the Prime Minister has stated. This is an extra amount spent; the balance has nothing to do with that road at all.


William Duff: I am referring to the
amount spent on Canadian National parks, and I presume that this $115,000 is part of the total of $915,000 spent on that work last year. While, of course, it is a very good thing to try to make good roads all over the country and in this way incidentally relieve unemployment, of which we had
so much last year, I do not see any more reason why we should spend this money on the Canadian National parks than anywhere else. The leader of the Opposition says that in three or four years' time we shall have a revenue of a few million dollars from the roads in this particular part of the country. Well, the same thing might be said in regard to the roads in any other part of Canada. If the Government spent a million dollars in Nova Scotia we should have thousands of tourists there who would spend a large amount of money. The same thing might be said of New Brunswick or of Quebec, particularly the latter province, into which there would be a large influx of tourists. But that, I contend, is no good reason why $915,000 should be spent in one particular part of the country; nor is it a good reason, even, that the expenditure of this money would relieve unemployment. Other provinces in the Dominion have had a good deal of unemployment, but they did not come to the Government with a request that money should be spent on the roads to relieve that unemployment. The provincial governments took charge of that problem, and to a certain extent the citizens themselves have endeavoured to find a way out of the difficulty. Those who could not find employment in their own particular vocations sought work in other lines. I see no good reason why, on the eve of an election, this large amount of money should have been voted by the late government and spent in this way. The late government, in my opinion, deserves in this respect the censure not only of this House but of the country at large.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: I entirely disagree with the remarks of the member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff). I think the late government are to be complimented on having pushed this work on during the last fall and winter, having practically completed it with the exception of a few miles. And I desire to compliment the present Government, as well, upon their foresight in realizing the necessity of completing this particular work at the earliest possible date, because I have every confidence that what the Prime Minister says is absolutely correct, that the finishing of this road, completing as it does, what is known as the Grand Circle Tour, will mean millions of money to this country and will repay very amply indeed the investment which this Government makes. Now, it is quite true that you might expend money in Nova
S apply-I nterior

Scotia with the result of bringing a number of tourists to that part of our country. But I think there are few who will question the fact that the expenditure of this sum of money-spent, mind you, by virtue of an agreement with the province of British Columbia-is certainly a far better investment, from the tourist point of view, than any expenditure of a similar amount that might be made in Nova Scotia. I compliment the past government on their energy in carrying on this work; and the present Government, in providing for it this year, is doing a great service indeed, not only in meeting the difficult unemployment conditions that exist in that part of Canada, but also in completing the work in order that returns may be secured from the investment at the earliest possible date.


William Findlay Maclean: While the estimates in connection with the Parks branch of the Interior Department were under consideration I did not happen to be in my seat, and if I am in order at the present time I should like, with the permission of the committee, to revert to the former item in order to discuss a question with reference to migratory birds. This question comes under the Parks branch, I believe, and with the consent of the committee I would Tike to'refer to certain resolutions that have been forwarded to me, and no doubt to other hon. gentlemen from the maritime provinces who are interested in this matter.


Arthur Meighen: I think the hon. member would be quite in order in dealing with the matter under this item. The question of migratory birds comes under National parks.


Mr. MacLEAN (Prince) :: When the
Migratory Birds Act was put into operation it seems to have worked 'beneficially to all the provinces except Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick. In the two latter provinces it has created a great deal of dissatisfaction. The close season starts, I think, on the first of March, and that is about the time the birds migrate northward. This is the onlv time of the year that the people in the province of Prince Edward Island have an opportunity to get any birds in their migration north. Fishermen and sportsmen are allowed to shoot the birds only on their return in the fall, and it is practically impossible for them to get any birds at that time of the year. The matter has been taken up by the legislatures of Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island, and

resolutions passed by these two bodies have been forwarded to me. I do not wish to take up the time of the committee reading them, but the resolution from Prince Edward Island, after setting forth the various reasons for the opinion it expresses, concludes as follows:
Be it therefore resolved that in the opinion of this assembly the shooting of geese and brant in this province is only practicable in the stpring and then only for a very short period and that the prohibition in this province of the spring shooting of these birds is not only wholly unnecessary for their protection but on the other hand operates as a discrimination against this province in that it amounts to practically a total prohibition of the shooting of these birds at any time, and this assembly is strongly of the opinion that this province should be excepted from the operations of the said act in so far as the season of shooting of geese and brant is concerned but that the present provincial game laws or similar regulations regarding the shooting of migratory birds should be adequately enforced and that this would afford ample protection to the birds and would sufficiently conform to the spirit of the said federal act and the treaty upon which it is based.
And that the act 7-8 George V, chapter 18, should be so amended as to permit the spring shooting of brant and geese in this province.
A similar resolution was passed by the government of Nova Scotia at the instance of Mr. Kinley, member for Lunenburg. It is as follows:
Whereas the federal Government, by virtue of the Migratory Bird Treaty, has acquired and assumed jurisdiction over migratory birds in the province of Nova Scotia.
Therefore resolved that the provisions of the Fish and Game Act relating to the protection of such birds should be repealed.
A committee of the House be appointed to review the regulation made by the Dominion Government under said treaty, for the purpose of recommending such changes as the conditions in Nova Scotia may require.
Possibly it is beyond the power of this House to deal with the matter, as an international treaty is involved, but I wish to point out that this treaty works an injustice to the people of that province. A few days ago some five or six men who happened to be out with their fire arms were arrested, although they had not shot a bird, and were taken before a magistrate twenty-five miles away, who fined them $25 each. This was rather harsh treatment. We are not in favour of slaughtering these birds for market purposes; but fishermen and sportsmen claim that they should have the privilege of shooting a few in the only season of the year that they can get near them during their migratory flight to the north. Only a few days ago I noticed an item in the newspapers describing the destruction of fishermen's nets by brant,

Supp ly-In te rior
gulls and other birds. In order to get at the fish in the nets these birds tear the nets to such an extent ,that they become almost useless, yet the fishermen are not allowed to fire a shot to scare the birds away. These men are only asking that they be allowed to take a few birds in their flight north, which is the only time that they have any chance of bagging them.


Mr. CHAPLIN:: We complain of the
Americans shooting migratory birds in the spring just before they come north to breed. How can we justify the shooting of these same birds after they have left the South?


Alfred Edgar MacLean: Do they not shoot those birds up to the first of March?


James Dew Chaplin: No, they do not; the spring shooting is done away with under the new agreement.


Alfred Edgar MacLean: When was that amendment made?


James Dew Chaplin: Last year. If you will look up our own game laws, you will find that to be the case.


Alfred Edgar MacLean: The complaint our people had was that the Americans could shoot those birds from March first, whereas on the 2nd of March in our country we were not allowed to take a single bird.


James Dew Chaplin: That was true up to last year.


Alfred Edgar MacLean: That was
where it was so unfair.


James Dew Chaplin: It was unfair.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is there not a season in the fall when our people can shoot these migratory birds? I have heard no complaint in my part of the country against the close season in the spring of the year. It does seem to me that my hon. friend is complaining because two of his friends have been "pinched".


Alfred Edgar MacLean: No, they did not happen to be my friends. They were from another county. There is no complaint from my friends; they obey the law. In the fall of the year they claim it is impossible to shoot any of those birds on their return south because they stay far out to sea, very few of them frequenting the estuaries of our rivers. Their feeding place is out at sea where they are beyond the reach of our sportsmen.


Mr. LEGER:: I desire to support my hon. friend from Prince Edward Island (Mr. MacLean). I have heard many complaints in my own county against this law. As far back as a hundred years ago I understand there was no closed season for migratory birds, and to-day they are just as numerous as they were at that time, so I do not think there is any fear of their extermination by allowing our people to shoot a few in the spring season.


William Duff: The hon. member for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson) said that perhaps the reason why the member for Prinrfe (Mr. MacLean) brought this subject to the attention of the committee was that some of his friends bad been fined for violating the provisions of the Migratory Birds Act I am glad to know that this Government deals differently with offenders against the la'w to what the 'late government did. I had a case in my county last fall where two young men, contrary to the provisions of the act, shot some df those birds. They were haled before a magistrate, the Department of Justice retained a solicitor to prosecute them, and were found guilty and each fined $30 and costs. Some good friend of the late government telegraphed to Ottawa, with the result that the present leader of the Opposition passed one of his famous Orders in Council, remitting to these young men the fines which the magistrate had imposed. This happened three or four days before the general election last December. That is the way the late government carried out the provisions of the Migratory Birds Act.


Mr. KYTE:: I desire to add a word or two to the observations made by the hon. member for Prince, P.E.I. The people of Nova Scotia object that while they are prohibited from shooting these birds in the spring, when they return from the northern latitudes in the fall, nice and plump and fat, the American sportsmen get at them. It is quite impossible for our sportsmen to shoot these birds after the spring, as they remain for a short time only along the coast of the maritime provinces, and then proceed to the north and stay there until fall. On their return, as the hon. member for Prince has said, they do not land m the estuaries of our rivers, but feed out at sea and then proceed south. That is the time that the American sportsmen, having no close season, can shoot them as they return plump and palatable after feeding upon the fertile pastures of the northern latitudes. This Migratory Birds'
Ifigg	COMMONS
Supply-Railways and Canals
Treaty is an entirely one-sided, jug-handled agreement. It is unfair to the people of the maritime provinces. I am not speaking for the so-called "sportsmen." I have no sympathy with men who go out and shoot these birds purely for "sport"; but I have sympathy for the men living along the coast of the maritime provinces who shoot these birds only because they regard them as a prime necessity. While under the terms of the present Migratory Birds Act they are deprived of that privilege at the only season of the year when It can be of any use to them, sportsmen across the boundary have the full benefit and advantage of shooting these birds without any limitation whatever.


Mr. BLACK (Yukon):: I hope that the remarks which have been addressed to the committee by some hon. members against the provisions of the Migratory Birds Treaty Act and the convention between Canada and the United States in that regard will not have the effect of lessening in any way the restrictions applied under that act and agreement. You may find in isolated districts complaints coming from, I may say, selfish people who want to continue to kill these migratory birds in the spring of the year when they should be protected from sportsmen and people who pretend they depend on their flesh for food. Who ever heard of people living in Canada who depended on the flesh of wild geese in the spring for their food? These birds that have been spoken of-the brant and the duck-are scarcely fit to eat; they are thin and emaciated. My hon. friend spoke of the brant breaking up the fishermen's nets in an effort to get fish; apparently he does not know that the brant is not a fish-eating bird-not a diver, even. When the provisions of the convention between the United States and Canada were first put into force in Canada, there was an inclination-and I may say that I was somewhat affected that way myself-to complain against these restrictions which prevented the very fine spring shooting we used to get. In the case of the Yukon Territory these restrictions involve more hardship, perhaps, than in any other part of Canada; the fall comes so early there that the main flight of the birds is gone even before the open season commences, and in the spring there is as good shooting as can he had any where in the world. The birds come there in millions, on their way to the breeding grounds a short distance further north; you could shoot any

amount of them. I am bound to admit that since the Migratory Birds Convention Act was put into force the fall shooting has been very much improved, and I think that applies all over Canada. If these provisions are observed by the people of the United States and Canada, the number of birds which can be hunted in the fall in both countries will very soon be materially increased.


George William Kyte: The hon. member for Yukon expresses surprise that there are any people in Canada who would really use these birds for food. I say they are very much more palatable than the dog-meat that is sometimes, of necessity, eaten by the people in other parts of Canada. Circumstances may arise which make it necessary for people to go out and shoot these birds for food, just as circumstances may arise in the northern country under which people go out and obtain dog-meat for food.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.

[Stage Direction]
Department of Railways and Canals-contingencies-further amount required, $6,400.
Mr. STEWART (Lanark) :: Will the minister kindly explain the item?


William Costello Kennedy: The information I have is this: In the civil government estimates for 1921-22 the department provided for certain clerks who were eligible under "blanketing in" anticipating that such "blanketing in" would be accomplished and effective from April 1, 1921. As such was not the case these salaries had to be taken care of from the contingencies vote, as follows:
A. J. McDermid, Clerk-Stenographer	5 900
L. Walters, Typist	 600
I. McBursey, Clerk-Stenographer 1,080
The travelling expenses of the officials of the department were about $3,800 higher than estimated, the increase being due, principally, to the large amount of work relative to the Canada Highways Act	 3,800


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Supply-Railways and Canals
Welland Canal: Fort Colborne elevator-to pay balance of claim of J. A. Jamieson, $7,000.
Thomas Alexander Crerar: What is this for?
Mr. KENNED! (Essex) : This amount is required to settle in full for services rendered by Mr. J. A. Jamieson as engineer in charge of the construction of the Port Colborne elevator,^ including its enlargement from a capacity of 850,000 bushels to a capacity of 2,000,000 bushels. The original contract entered into with Mr. Jamieson in 1905 stipulated terms of payment by percentages of costs for services in the design and supervision of construction of a 2,000,000 bushel elevator. The project was modified and the elevator was built with a capacity of 850,000 bushels. Later it was decided to enlarge this elevator to the capacity originally intended of 2,000,000 bushels. The enlargement was an excedingly difficult problem owing to the fact that the work was necesarily carried on while the elevator was in active operation. The above circumstances gave rise to differences of opinion as to the application of the terms of the original contract for services. Payments on account were made during the currency of the work. Mr. Jamieson claims a balance still due of $20,770. After negotiations with officers of the department an agreement was arrived at for settlement at $7,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Welland ship canal: construction-additional amount required (Governor General's warrant, February 23, 1922), $435,000.
John Alexander Stewart: Will the minister please give us an explanation of this item?


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: I have this explanation:
The program of the season's work was laid out upon the assumption that the funds to be derived from the sale of the plant on the work to contractors, would be available for the purpose of the work, in addition to the parliamentary appropriation. When the ruling was made that this credit was not available, the Chief Engineer pointed out that to keep within the parliamentary appropriation it would be necessary to close down the work before the end of the fiscal year. As such a course would be to the serious detriment of the work, and would aggravate the unemployment difficulties the work was continued under a Governor General's warrant.


Mr. CHURCH:: I do not rise to object to this item because I have every confidence in the minister, but it is the first opportunity we have had of discussing this very important item.


The CHAIRMAN:: That discussion can take place on the Main Estimates.


Thomas Langton Church: But this item has relation to the policy of the Government with respect to the Welland Ship Canal.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: When we
take up the Main Estimates a discussion can take place on the whole canal question.


Thomas Langton Church: This involves a matter of policy and the item is a very large one. I wish to offer some observations in respect to it, but I promise not to be very long. In my opinion this project has not been handled in the way it should have been handled. We had a statement from the minister the other day that the Welland ship canal will not be ready to be opened until 1-927. Now this canal is a most important link in the whole route for water borne traffic from the city of Montreal to the head of the lakes. Until it is completed the larger boats on the upper lakes will be unable to come down to lakes Erie and Ontario. At present a barge carrying
500,000	bushels of grain, when it reaches Fort Colborne, has to have its cargo transshipped to two or three smaller barges and conveyed to the city of Montreal at an additional cost of four or five cents per bushel. This transhipment diverts a large part of the grain intended for Montreal into other channels. According to a report brought down at an earlier date by the International Joint Commission, a great part of this grain now goes to Buffalo. I do not say that the minister is responsible for this state of but it is exceedingly unfortunate. The Erie canal which was started about the same time as the Welland canal, or shortly afterwards, has been completed and is now open, with the result that the former is getting a large bulk of the business which should pass through Canadian channels. If the same vigour had been displayed m prosecuting this particular work that was shown in the deepening of the Queens-ton and Chippawa canal, the Welland should be ready to be opened in about two years. Until this work is finished we shall not derive the value that we ought to receive from the large expenditure which the people of Canada have made upon this canal system. Consequently the ports on lake Huron and the 'Georgian, bay, and on lake Erie and lake Ontario, as well as those on the St. Lawrence route are going to suffer. Now, according to information disclosed to the House, $30,000,000 have been spent on this project already and no-
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body knows when it is going to be finished; it is an eye-sore in the Niagara district to-day. If the work on the Welland canal was vigorously prosecuted it could be completed in a year or two and the large boats on the upper lakes would be able to reach lake Erie and lake Ontario. The result would be that we should have some regulation of the rates for five or six months in the year as between the railways and the water routes. The importance of getting this canal finished is fully set out in the report of the International Joint Commission. I know the minister has given consideration to the important factor which the immediate completion of the Welland canal will prove in lessening the rates on wheat from the great West. I do not wish to detain the House to-night with any further remarks. I hope, however, that when we take up the Main Estimates the Government will disclose the fact that they are so seized with the importance of the subject that they will give effect to the recommendations of the International Joint Commission who Investigated this problem. We are away behind the times in our handling of this great project. The Erie canal will have been in operation, I think, this year, for the third summer, and the people of the United States are deriving great benefit from the use of this channel of communication. And it was a most important factor, as Mr. Hoover said the other day. Of course Mr. Hoover is a very high authority and is doing good work in lowering the high cost of living in the United States. He said that when the Welland canal was finished we would get the results in cut rates that this great canal would force. While I have every confidence in the minister, I hope when the Main Estimates are brought down he will give the House and the committee some idea as to when the canal is going to be finished.


Arthur John Lewis: I understand that in the Main Estimates last year $5,000,000 was appropriated for the work of this canal, and I want to know who authorized further expenditure of nearly half a million dollars for the extension of this work. We understand that when $5,000,000 is voted the people who are responsible for continuing this work will keep within that amount; otherwise we will have no say in the matter as to how far it shall be exceeded until the work is done, and we are asked to vote a supplementary estimate. I do not wish to go into the matter of the Welland canal at this particular period, but it seems to

me that that canal will become a competing factor with the two transcontinental railways. At the present time the railways do not pay, and before the Welland canal can be completed and put on a paying basis, it would be of great interest to this country to continue the branch line service to the farmers, in order that they might be able to get their products to the trunk lines and transcontinental lines and give the men some work to do. For that reason, instead of continuing to expend $5,000,000 and a supplementary estimate of nearly $500,000,1 think it would be to the interest of the country at large, and would also put the two transcontinentals on a paying basis, if this money, providing there is any to be spared, should be spent in extending the branch lines to the real sources of the products that will be carried over them.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Governor General's Cars-attendance, repairs and alterations-'further amount required, $6,600.
Thomas Alexander Crerar: What is the purpose of this?


William Charles Good: It seems to me it will soon be time to call a halt in regard to those particular expenditures. We were asked to vote some $20,000 this afternoon in connection with this same matter. I wish to protest against any enlargement of expenditure in this particular direction.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: The amount was spent, as is customary when there is a change of Governor General, and the cars were overhauled and other necessary repairs made. There were two cars and the cost was $6,600.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Were these repairs absolutely necessary? Were the cars in a dilapidated condition, or does the Government take occasion whenever there is a change of Governor General to overhaul all cars at additional expense?


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: I do not
understand that it is the custom or practice that there shall be money expended when a change of Governor General takes place. It did so happen in this case that the cars were not in good shape. They were sent to the shop and overhauled and it was found necessary to expend the amount mentioned.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide for expenditure for rails accessories and repairs to equipment to December 31st, 1921 (Governor General's warrant December 31st, 1921), $735,000.

Supply-Railways and Canals
Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Orders placed by the Canadian National Railway for rails under the general authority of Order in Council No. 3800, October 6, 1921, in connection with measures for the relief of the unemployment situation, necessitated a payment amounting approximately to $735,000, about December 31, 1921, and by Order in Council No. 4652 payment was provided for by authority of Governor General's warrant. Later arrangements rendered it advisable that the amounts so paid he included in the railway loan, the charge was accordingly transferred, and this warrant will not be utilized. Notwithstanding that this warrant will not be drawn on, it has been considered necessary, in accordance with the customary practice relative to Governor General's warrants, to print it in the Supplementary Estimates. As a matter of fact, the loan of $50,000,000 was passed this year and made provision for this $735,000, and this amount will not be called on. It is simply a bookkeeping item.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Those contracts were
let in October.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: By Order in
Council of the Gth October authority was given for the making of repairs on 2,000 cars of the Canadian National Railways, for the purpose of relieving unemployment.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Where were the repairs
made?


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Five hundred in New Glasgow, five hundred in Amherst, five hundred in Montreal and five hundred in Hamilton.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Does this whole item
cover repairs to cars?


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: And rails were also included in the Order in Council at that time. I have a statement of it, if the hon. member would like to hear it.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I would like to get the
particulars.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: By Order
in Council of the 6th October, 1921, authority was given for the making of heavy repairs to 2,000 cars of the National Railways for the purpose of relieving the unemployment situation and also for ordering for the Canadian National Railways and the Grand Trunk Railway system 75,000 tons of rails for the same purpose. These orders anticipated the requirements of the railways for the new year.
Five hundred and forty cars were completed before 31st March, 1922, at an average cost of $927.34 or a total of $500,763. Since March 31, 950 cars had been repaired, leaving a balance of 510 not yet repaired.
Of the rails authorized, 40,000 tons were purchased by the Canadian National Railways and paid for out of the appropriations for the past fiscal year:
Dominion Iron & Steel, 19,380 lst's at $49 ton. f.o.b. mill.
Dominion Iron & S'teel, 619 2nd's at $46.55 ton f.o.b. mill.
Algoma, 19,000 Ist's at $50 ton f.o.b. mill.
Algoma, 1,000 2nd's at $47.50 ton f.o.b. mill.
The Grand Trunk Railway placed orders for 29,000 tons.
Dominion Iron & Steel, 15,243 at $49 ton f.o.b. mill.
Algoma, 13,828 at $49 ton f.o.b. mill.
Orders were for delivery in April and May, payment to be made in May and June. No payments have yet been made. The balance, 6,000 tons, was not ordered.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: At what price were
these orders placed? What was the cost of the service?


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Dominion
Iron and Steel Company $49 per ton f.o.b. the mills. That was for firsts, and for seconds $46.55 per ton f.o.b. the mill. The Algoma price was $50 per ton f.o.b. the mill for firsts, and $47.50 f.o.b. the mill for seconds. Of the orders placed by the Grand Trunk Railway, the one with the Dominion Iron and Steel company of 15,243 tons was placed at $49 per ton f.o.b. the mill, and the one with the Algoma Steel Company of 13,828 tons, at $49 a ton f.o.b. the mill.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: What are the current prices for rails?


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: We have not been on the market for rails since then, and I am not in a position to give the hon. member the information.


Arthur John Lewis: Are these rails being
utilised, or are they still on hand?


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: They are
being distributed and used for replacement purposes.


Arthur John Lewis: I understood the minister to say in his speech, that there were to he no extensions of lines this year. It would be a good plan to use the rails on branch lines.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: They are
being used for replacement purposes.



Supply-Railways and Canals


John Alexander Stewart: In connection with this item, I should like to explain to the committee that, in the closing months of 1921, very strong representations were made, not only to the Department of Railways and Canals and the government, but to the boards in charge of the operation of Canadian-owned railways, that the unemployment situation in large centres of industrial activity throughout Canada was such that a very great hardship was likely to result to the working people during the winter season of 1921-22. It was urged, not only upon the boards of management of the two systems, but upon the government, and urged by representatives of municipalities, by boards of trade, by labour organizations, by, in fact, all interests, that the railways should, as far as possible, anticipate their requirements; that orders likely to be, placed for the season of 1922, should be so placed that the industries could be operated during the winter season. That is exactly what was done. The government conferred with the Canadian Northern board and the Grand Trunk board and suggested to them that it would be well that, having regard to the unemployment situation, they should take into consideration the advisability of placing these orders. It was decided that the two boards, having determined what the possible requirements for this season would be in the way of rails and having taken stock of the cars that were in hand and would be required to be replaced or repaired for the season's operations, should place orders for repair and reconstruction of cars and orders for rails for replacement purposes, and the action of the government was confined to providing in anticipation the funds. It was in pursuance of this policy that the government, in carrying out the Order in Council referred to by the minister, authorised the boards and undertook to provide the funds.


Mr. GAUVREAU:: I am a little surprised to hear the ex-minister (Mr. Stewart) say that those contracts were given out just to relieve unemployment in some parts of the country. Does he not know that all this work of repairing cars could have been given to the shops of the railways in the province of Quebec or elsewhere? From the very fact that the exminister gave that work out to some private corporations he reduced the number of men in the railway shops. They were turned out and added to the ranks of the unemployed in

other parts of the country just for the sake of those private corporations of which the government that was in power at that time was so fond. I was greatly distressed to see hundreds of men turned out in the cold of winter just because private corporations wanted to have those contracts notwithstanding the hardship inflicted upon the men who were working in the shops at Riviere du Loup. I am surprised at my hon. friend coming boldly before such a House as this and supporting the firing out of these men into the cold just for the sake of some private corporations.


John Alexander Stewart: In reply to the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Gauvreau), I should like to explain to the committee that neither the late government nor the Department of Railways and Canals had any part to play in placing the orders. I am sure the boards in control of the shops to which my hon. friend refers, would place those orders, having due regard to the requirements of their staffs. The orders for rails were distributed amongst the companies which were engaged in the manufacture of rails. Some of the orders went to the Algoma Steel Company and the balance to Nova Scotia. In the repair and reconstruction of cars as also, for that matter, in connection with placing orders for rails, regard was had to the question of unemployment, and the Order in Council which authorized the orders which were placed, provided that, in the placing of those orders, conference should be had with the Department of Labour in order that the work should go to relieve unemployment, and not as my hon. friend (Mr. Gauvreau) states, to private corporations for any considerations outside of that of unemployment, because no order could be placed until after conference with the Minister of Labour and until after the situation in the locality where an order was placed had been canvassed and surveyed, regard being had to the question of employment at the time and also to the question of possible employment during the winter season.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Do I understand that the Minister of Labour decided where those orders would be placed?


John Alexander Stewart: I hope the committee did not understand me as apparently the hon. member for Marquette did. I said that the orders were anticipated in order, as far as was consistent with good business and management, to relieve the unemployment situation. The

Supply-Railivays and Canals
government having that in view, it was decided that, in the placing of orders, the boards should appreciate exactly what the unemployment situation was, and the records in the Department of Labour gave that information to an extent that it would have been impossible to get it in any other way. The hon. gentleman hardly states the situation as it existed. Unemployment was at the basis of the whole policy, and the late government was very careful to impress upon the two boards that, in anticipating the requirements upon which those orders would be based, due regard should be had to what was to be required this year. And it was provided that while these companies were to go on and manufacture, payment was not to be made until delivery. They could go on and make rails and pile them up, but payment by the board was to be made at the time that delivery was taken; and delivery would be taken when the requirement arose.


George William Kyte: While this item is under
consideration I would draw to the attention of the Minister of Railways (Mr. Kennedy) the conditions of unemployment that exist in the city of Sydney at the present time, and have existed for some months past. The city of Sydney has been built up around the steel industry which was established there many years ago. It is one of our best markets-in fact it is the best market that we have locally-for the consumption of the coal which is produced in the island of Cape Breton. As the member for Lanark (Mr. Stewart) stated, an order was given last year in anticipation of the requirements of the government railways, and that order had a very considerable effect in relieving the unemployment situation as it existed in that centre of population some months ago. Unfortunately, however, owing to the depression that prevails throughout all the avenues of trade in the maritime provinces and in Canada generally, no general orders for the manufacture of steel have been secured by steel companies.
The plant in Sydney a year ago employed some 4,000 persons who, with their families, constitute the largest proportion of the population of the city. But the number of employees was reduced some months ago to 800. There are to-day, and have been for some months, 3.200 steel workers in idleness in that city. The city has been unable to collect taxes from these people for the simple reason that they have no money wherewith to pay them; and as a conse-
107i
quenee the civic officers have not been paid their salaries for more than a month. That is a condition that ought not to exist in any part of this country if it can possibly be obviated.
The late government did very well in placing the orders which they gave in anticipation of the requirements of the government railways but I do think that the present Minister of Railways, in further anticipation of the needs of the Government railways in the matter of rails, should give an order to the steel company at Sydney for, say, 25,000 tons, so that the steel plant there might start again and provide much needed employment to the steel workers of that community.
Now, Sydney is unfortunately situated with respect to the receiving of orders from other railway corporations in Canada. Up to the present time the steel company at Sydney has never received an order for steel rails from the Canadian Pacific Railway, for the reason that the Canadian Pacific railway line does not extend to the city of Sydney, and that company are averse to paying freight on the rails to another railway corporation. Therefore, so far as the purchase of rails in Canada goes, the Canadian Pacific Railway places its orders with the rival plant at Sault Ste. Marie in the province of Ontario. The same has been true with respect to rails purchased by the Grand Trunk Pacific and the Grand Trunk Railway Company. They have placed their orders for steel rails entirely with the steel plant in Ontario.
The Dominion Government has owned a railway in the maritime provinces for many years. That railway is now linked up with the Canadian National Railway System, and I submit that in the very near future there must be a necessity for very large orders of rails for this government system. Even though the Minister of Railways may have on hand a sufficient quantity of rails for the present year, I do not think that, taking into consideration the conditions as they exist in Sydney to-day, and having regard to the desire of all classes in Canada to relieve as far as possible the unemployment situation throughout the country, the Government would be justified in placing another order with the steel company at Sydney for the purpose of relieving unemployment. I am told by gentlemen who are experts in' the matter of the value of steel rails, that steel rails are the one commodity which do not deteriorate while not in use. On the contrary, they increase in value and use-

Supply-Railways and. Canals
fulness with age, and I am informed that the Government would not be losing anything even if they were to pay interest on money borrowed for the purpose of placing another order with the steel company at Sydney, because the value of the rails, as regards durability, would have increased so much by being kept in storage for a year or two, that the additional cost would be more than compensated for.
I trust that the Minister of Railways and the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding), who after all is the one member of the Government that has to provide the wherewithal to meet the demands that would be made in connection with these additional orders, will be able to find the means whereby an order can be placed in Sydney. I do not think it would be fair to place the cost of these rails against the operating account of the railways for the present year, because the rails would not be used until probably 1923. I think it would be worth while for the Government to consider the proposal to borrow a certain sum of money to defray the cost of the rails; but the cost should not appear in the accounts for the operation of the Railway Department for 1922 or 1923. Now, this is a most serious matter, and besides bringing it up before this committee to-night, my colleague (Mr. Carroll) who is at present engaged on a committee in another part of the building and myself have taken it up with the Minister of Railways and the Minister of Finance, and I give notice now that at a very early date we hope to renew the application for this order. I trust therefore that the Government may find some way, in view of the conditions that prevail to-day, to accede to the request and get the steel rail mills going once more in the city of Sydney.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I occasionally find myself in agreement with the sentiments expressed by the genial Whip on the Government side (Mr. Kyte). But I must, in the strongest manner possible, dissent from the strange and remarkable doctrine which he has just propounded to the House. I sympathize very deeply indeed with the position of the steel workers in the town of Sydney; but I take this opportunity, Mr. Chairman, to draw the attention of this House to the fact that the condition that exists in Sydney to-day is indeed a striking commentary on the whole public policy that has been followed in the past in respect of the steel industry in Canada. The official records will disclose the fact that in the past this 
Dominion has subsidized the steel industry of Canada to the tune of between $15,000,000 and $20,000,000. I cannot speak with exact knowledge of the precise amount; but I know it is somewhere between the figures I have mentioned. Now, what have we got? We have given out in cold cash to the steel companies in this Dominion somewhere between $15,000,000 and $20,000,000 in the way of actual bonus to build up their business for the purpose of creating these industries in Canada and giving employment to Canadian labour. And after having done all that, we are faced now with the remarkable doctrine that we must further subsidize this particular industry by placing government orders with it in order that the workmen who have been gathered around it may be enabled to live. If that is a wise, sane and sound method of developing the country, then I certainly have a great deal to learn. I will make that confession very fully and very frankly.
The Minister of Railways will be ill-advised indeed as far as the Government is concerned if he is governed by any other than the soundest business principles in the placing of orders for the National Railways. One of the criticisms I have to make against the late government in respect to these particular orders that we are now discussing, is, that in my judgment they were not placed according to sound business principles. I am not going to draw further attention to the significant fact that they were placed a few months prior to the election. My hon. friend, the late Minister of Railways (Mr. Stewart) states that this was done to relieve unemployment.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: And good Liberals were dismissed from the shops.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I accept his assurance in that respect, but the significance of the time at which the orders were placed is not lost. We find that orders for rails were placed at $50 a ton. I am not aware at what price rails could be purchased today, but I think I am well within the mark when I say that they could be purchased at very considerably less than that figure. That illustrates one of the business practices that should be followed in the operation of the Canadian National Railways,- that rails, cars, and all other equipment and rolling stock required for their operation should be purchased at the lowest prices. It is not a sound business policy for the Government-for the late govern-

Supply-Railivays and Canals
ment or for this Government-to place orders for rails or any other materials or equipment required for these railways in order to relieve unemployment, if that means that higher prices have to be paid and charged against the railways. And I serve fair warning now upon the Minister of Railways that I reserve the right to criticise in the freest possible manner that method of conducting the business of our National Railways.
I have always maintained in this House and in the country that the operation of our National Railways should be placed on a sound business basis. I believe it can be done. But it cannot be done if unsound business practice is allowed! to govern. It should be left entirely with the management and the directors to decide where these purchases shall be made, and when. The-Government and the Minister of Railways occupy a very influential position, and it is the most natural thing in the world that even the management or the board of directors of the National Railways would pay attention to suggestions made by the minister as to where and when orders should be placed. Therefore it lies with the Minister of Railways and with the Government more than with any one else to absolutely dissociate the administration of these railways from considerations of this nature.
I inquired a little while ago from the minister what these rails would cost if they were purchased now, and I am sorry that he could not give me the information. I trust that before the main estimates of the Railway Department come down the minister will be able to furnish it. I was told-I do not know with what truth-that when these orders were placed last October they could have been placed at a cheaper rate. As I say, I do not know if my information is accurate. But before I take my seat I repeat once more that this is the only consideration that should govern in the administration of these National Railways, that the things necessary for their operation, the repair of cars and other rolling stock, the purchase of equipment, rails, ties and everything else, should be purchased on strict business methods by buying always where they can buy to the best advantage.


George William Kyte: I would assure my hon.
friend from Marquette (Mr. Crerar), that I do not think the conditions existing in Sydney differ very much from the conditions existing among the wheat-growers
in the western provinces. Some years ago they were very prosperous, they were receiving good prices for their wheat; and in the same way the steel workers were prosperous because the steel mills were busy and they were receiving good wages. We have an application before Parliament now for the establishment of a wheat board. I have no fault to find with that application; the western farmers have a perfect right to ask for it. But is that for the purpose of reducing the price of wheat to the growers of western Canada, or for the purpose of securing to them larger returns? If for the latter purpose, then surely the increased profit will have to come from those who consume the flour which is manufactured out of that western wheat.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No, no.


George William Kyte: My hon. friends opposite say " no." I confess that I am not sufficiently familiar with the process by which they expect to get larger profits, but it always follows that if the producer of an article designs to get a higher price for it, then the consumer must pay more for the commodity.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, no.


George William Kyte: A wheat board was established a couple of years ago and the government financed its operations. I do not know if that is desired at the present time by the western provinces, but as I gathered from the discussion in this House some weeks ago it was the desire of our friends from the West to have a wheat board established whose operations would be financed out of the Treasury.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No, no.


George William Kyte: The Government, of course, would not lose by doing so, because, as in the past, they would be recouped any moneys advanced. At all events, whether the particular details I refer to be correct or not, the fact is that conditions have arisen in western Canada which appear to make it necessary for our friends from the prairie provinces to take some further steps to secure better returns for the products of the wheat-growers. I did hear one hon. gentleman after another state in this House during the present session that wheat growing was most unprofitable for them owing to the small prices they received last year. That is perfectly true, and for my part I am prepared to support

Supply-Railways and Canals
any reasonable proposal that my hon. friends from the western provinces may present to this House for the purpose of ameliorating the condition of their constituents. Therefore I say it is unkind at least for my hon. friend from Marquette to object to a similar proposal, although in another form, which I am making in behalf of my constituents in the city of Sydney.


John Alexander Stewart: The member for Marquette has questioned the soundness of the business methods adopted by the late government last October. I am quite willing to take issue with him upon what was done from a business standpoint, and to permit the House to judge whether the business methods then adopted were sound or unsound. What was fundamental in the action of the government, and what that action was predicated upon, I submit was good business practice that was not uncommon during the past winter among private concerns.
First of all, we had a very serious unemployment situation. In the steel centres particularly where the car construction works were located it was the opinion not only of those in charge of the industry itself but of the municipalities that in no recent years were the prospects so serious for the working classes, and the government was petitioned time and again, and deputations from the municipal councils of those localities waited upon us to emphasize the seriousness of the situation.
Now, what did the government do? After conferring with the Department of Labour the government convinced itself that the conditions in the different localities, as represented by the municipal authorities, were very serious indeed and that the prospects for the winter season were absolutely hopeless for the working people. What the government did do was to confer with the representatives of the two boards in charge of the government lines as to the wisdom of placing orders for such supplies as would be used this spring and this season. Now, aside from the possible question of price, which has not been raised, I submit there is no bad business about that. The government ordered such rails as in the opinion of the boards would be required this season, and it was part of the arrangement that no payment was to be made until delivery was taken, and there was no obligation to take delivery before the rails were actually required. If it was bad business in the fall of 1921

to provide that these industries should operate during the winter season when it was most desirable, in the interests of the employees as well as of the country generally. that there should be employment, then I am quite willing to admit that my hon. friend from Marquette is right. But we acted as we deemed best; we took the responsibility then, and we stand by our action now. Why, it was not uncommon during the past season for those engaged in private industry, in manufacturing in many lines throughout Canada, to ask their customers to anticipate their requirements in order that the factories might be kept busy during the winter months when the really serious unemployment situation existed. If that was good business on the part of those engaged in pri-
9 p.m. vate enterprise, surely no question can be raised as to the action of the government with regard to the orders that were placed.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: Will my hon. friend allow me a question I want to put to him with regard to the contracts for the repairs of cars? He says he wanted to relieve unemployment, but he took action which threw out a good many men in Truro, Halifax and Quebec, thus adding to the unemployment in our towns and cities.


John Alexander Stewart: The situation with reference to the repairing and rebuilding of cars rested on precisely the same basis as the placing of orders for rails.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: You were wrong in both, then.


John Alexander Stewart: In the
placing of orders for rails and other supplies and for repairs to cars, the Government and the Department of Railways played no part at all.


Mr. MITCHELL:: I understood the hon. gentleman to say a few moments ago that neither the Government nor the railway management had anything to do with the placing of these contracts.


John Alexander Stewart: No, I said the Department of Railways.


Walter George Mitchell: And that the Minister of Labour had something to do with it.


John Alexander Stewart: The Minister of Labour was asked to confer with the boards of the Canadian Northern and the Grand Trunk in order that in placing the work regard should be had to the con-

dition of unemployment. There were also conferences between the executive heads of the two national systems and the Canadian Pacific, because in taking care of the unemployment situation it was necessary that the Canadian National board should know what the Canadian Pacific was doing in the matter of its commitments in respect of rails and cars. There were conferences,
I say, not only between the Department of Labour and the two boards of the National system, but between these two boards and the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. My hon. friend referred to the placing of the cars and its effect upon the car works of the National system and of the Grand Trunk system. Well, that matter was fully considered by the boards; whether or not their judgment was correct is something that hon. members will themselves have to form an opinion upon. But the question of unemployment, in private industry as well as in the works of the companies themselves, was all canvassed. Whether or not the final decision was wise is something-


Mr. BOTVIN:: Will the ex-minister please make it quite clear whether it was the Gov-vernment that was advising the railway board or the railway board that was advising the Government?


Mr STEWART (Lanark) :: It was a
matter upon which advice was unnecessary and was not given, so far as I know. If there was to be anticipation of the requirements of the road, it was necessary for the Government to make provision for the funds, and, in the Order in Council to which reference has been made, authority was given to the boards to anticipate the requirements that would result from the course that was to be taken.


Mr. VIEN:: When was that done?


John Alexander Stewart: Early in
October.


Thomas Vien: After dissolution?


John Alexander Stewart: After dissolution, yes. My hon. friend from Marquette has suggested that the transaction had some political significance.


Thomas Vien: Will the hon. gentleman deny that it had any political significance?


John Alexander Stewart: Absolutely
and positively. The fact that the dates synchronize does not involve that conclusion. My hon. friend who has just asked the question will not deny that the condition of unemployment existed. Surely he will not accuse the late government of
11, 1922
Supply-Railways and Canals
having brought about that condition because there was an election coming on and it might be considered expedient from a political point of view to give the orders.
If he does not go that far; if he admits that there was unemployment and that it was good business to give the orders, then his suggestion falls to the ground.


Thomas Vien: I do not admit anything.


John Alexander Stewart: I would not expect my hon. friend to do so.


Mr. WARD:: I would like to ask the exMinister of Railways if he was aware that last fall, between the middle of October and the first of November, a train-load of new rails was shipped to the little town of Ste. Rose, presumably, I would say, to purchase a part of the Dauphin constituency for the government candidate. ___________________


John Alexander Stewart: I would
presume that my hon. friend would know sufficient about the policy under which our national roads are managed to find it unnecessary to ask the question, but as, apparently, it is necessary to make an explanation, let me say this: Under the law as it stands now, and as it stood in October of last year, neither the government, nor any .department of the government, has anything to do with the very condition which he states exists; and unless he suggests that the board of management of the road was operating the system and depositing the rails for political purposes his argument falls to the ground. Under the law as it stands, the government has absolutely nothing to do with the administration in the respect of which he has made this reference. Therefore I say that unless hon. gentlemen go the length of arguing that it was unsound business to attempt to take care of the unemployment situation, the action of the late government cannot be questioned. It did not require the expenditure of a single dollar prior to the time that it became necessary to take over these supplies for the purposes of the road. The car repairs were placed in such centres as was deemed wise. They were placed by the board of management of the road, not by the government, and they were pla'ced all over this country. Certain regard had to be paid to the question of the location of the industry concerned. That is, it would be impossible from a business point of view to take cars from western Canada to Nova Scotia to repair them. It would not
16DG

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be considered good business to haul rails from Nova Scotia to the western provinces when those rails could be as well purchased at the Soo from the Algoma Steel company. All these were considerations which were dealt with by the board of management and in connection with which the government itself took no part directly or indirectly. That is the point I desire to stress-that the government had nothing in any way to do with these contracts, aside from supplying, or undertaking to supply, the money that would be necessary to anticipate these orders after the close of the fiscal year. Now that is the condition. As I stated before, if that is a matter as to which the late government should be censured then I assure you they are quite willing to take the censure.


Mr. MURDOCK:: I have been very
much surprised, as well as pleased, to hear the explanation given by the former Minister of Railways as to the letting of the car repairing contracts last fall, because this statement shows conclusively that I have been altogether misinformed on this question since I became Minister of Labour. For the first two or three months of this year I gave interviews to gentlemen, several of them, who forcibly indicated to me that all that was necessary ' to place an order for the repairing of cars of the National Railways, including the Grand Trunk, with their concern, was simply to make the necessary recommendation to my colleague the Minister of Railways. He, in turn would convey the view of the Minister of Labour to the operating officers of the railroads that such order was necessary to relieve unemployment in this centre or that centre and that any car repair order should go forward. I was given to understand that distinctly, and that is why I could not refrain from rising to say how pleased I am to receive the statement of the former Minister of Railways that these gentlemen who were coming to me for the first three months of this year were giving me entirely inaccurate information. Further, I understood the former Minister of Railways to suggest that it would not be good business to draw cars for repair from western Canada to eastern Canada. My information is-and I would like to be corrected if it is wrong-that Grand Trunk cars were hauled from a point west of Montreal to New Glasgow, Nova Scotia, a distance of about eight hundred miles, repaired and 
hauled back again. If that was not done I would like to have that inaccurate statement also corrected by the former Minister of Railways.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: You are right.


James Murdock: I am very glad indeed to have had the explanation that has been given in regard to the letting of these car repairing contracts, because, I repeat, I was told it was done on the recommendation of the Minister of Labour, through the Minister of Railways, to the operating officers of the railroad.


Mr. MANION:: I should like to say a few words in regard to the relief of unemployment that was assisted by the late government. I happen to be somewhat familiar with one section of this country anyway, that is the northern Ontario section, and I can say that the late government in that part of the province-the section in the neighbourhood Sault Ste. Marie and the section at the head of the lakes-did very much to relieve the unemployment just through such contracts as my hon. friend the late Minister of Railways has mentioned. I have no doubt at all that the present Minister of Labour has had many people call upon him for unemployment doles: I do not think that he has had any request from the head of the lakes for any assistance financially. There has been a certain amount of unemployment at the head of the lakes, but there has been very little in comparison with what there would have been had the late government not given instructions for the repair of government railway cars in that district. That is also true of Sault Ste. Marie because of the rail contracts that were given there.
Now, in regard to hauling cars eight hundred miles for repairs, I do not pretend to know anything about railway matters at all; but I do know that cars are often hauled eight hundred miles for that purpose. Many of the cars which are repaired by the Canada Car Company at the head of the lakes are hauled eight hundred miles from the prairie provinces, and a great many more than that distance. They come down loaded with wheat. Even though they do require repairs, their injuries, I take it, are not so great as to prevent them still remaining in use as rolling stock. They come down a great deal farther than eight hundred miles and are repaired, as I say, in the Canada Car Works; and the Canadian Pacific Railway Company does the same thing with its cars.

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As a matter of fact the Canadian Pacific Railway Company-which we very often boast about as the greatest and most efficient corporation in the country-often gives contracts to the Canada Car Company, and the cars are of the same type

cars which have been used for carrying wheat from the prairie provinces, and many of them travelling much more than eight hundred miles to be repaired. So far as I am concerned-and I had something to do with the policy and saw something of it-I believe that the late government deserves a great deal of credit for the contracts they gave. If those contracts happened to be awarded before the election, was that any reason why the late government should ignore the unemployment conditions and not give them. Certainly not, to my mind.


Thomas Vien: Will my hon. friend tell me how many cars were repaired at Fort William?


Robert James Manion: I do not happen to have the figures, but I know there are still about five hundred men working in the car plant turning out that order, and that it is helping to relieve the unemployment conditions there.


William Stevens Fielding: Has not the late Minister of Railways just stated that the Government did not give these contracts?


Robert James Manion: I do not care anything about who gave the contracts. We are speaking about contracts given either by the Government, or by the government railways, for the repair of cars. I do not know who gave the contracts. I had nothing to do with that; I was not Minister of Railways. But I know that government railway cars were repaired at the head of the lakes, and I repeat it had much to do with relieving the unemployment situation in northern Ontario

that work and the contracts which were obtained by the steel mills at Sault Ste. Marie.
Now, in regard to the remarks by my hon. friend from Marquette (Mr. Crerar) who speaks of desiring the greatest efficiency on the part of the government railways. I doubt if there is an hon. member here who does not wish to see that. But at the same time, if a government road contract for the repair of cars, or the repair of something else, or the manufacture of rolling stock, or the manufacture of rails, can be given in such a manner that it helps to relieve the unemployment situation in this country, whether given by
the late government or the present Government, so far as I am concerned, even if it can be shown that it costs a little more-unless the cost is so much more that it is a disgrace-I will promise the present Government that I will support them in such a contract.
Another remark of the hon. leader of the Progressive party (Mr. Crerar) was rather a criticism of the steel bonus. I remember when the present Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) was citicised on other occasions in regard to this steel bonus which he brought in, when previously in office, I have seen him rise to his feet on some occasions and prove, and I think conclusively, that this bonus was a fine piece of legislation. I notice that when the hon. member for Marquette (Mr. Crerar) raises the same cry, the Minister of Finance does not rise, I presume for-the reason-that it is not good policy, in the present condition of the Government, to quarrel with the hon. member for Marquette. I am going to help out the Minister of Finance in that matter, because I agree with the policy he introduced in 1896, or about that time. I think I am correct in saying that the bounties were brought in by the present Minister of Finance when he was in the Liberal government of that time. He brought in bounties which amounted to some millions of dollars. The hon. member for Marquette gave some figures which, I think, are approximately correct, as to the amount paid on these bounties. I have looked into the question myself, because, as some hon. members of this House know, I gave on occasions various discourses on the iron question in this country, and I considered the iron and steel question at some length. I heard the hon. Minister of Finance state, and I agree with him, that due to these bounties to a great extent the steel and iron manufacturing plants of this country were built up. The steel and iron industries were built up to a great extent by the very bounties given about 1896 by the present Minister of Finance who was a member of the former Liberal government. Possibly they were put on just before, but I think it was about that time. In my opinion these bounties had very much to do with building up the iron and steel manufacturing processes of this country. I wish to compliment the present Minister of Finance upon having kept them in force as long as he did. For some years past they have been discontinued.

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I notice that my hon. friend from Marquette and many of his friends cheered him strongly when he criticized these bounties. I hold the Estimates in my hand, and in the Estimates I find a figure of $6,084,000 in the agricultural estimates. Last year it was $5,900,000. I challenge my hon. friends to my left to show that this $6,000,000 item is not a bounty to the agricultural interests of this country when the money is paid. I challenge them to say that it is not practically a direct bounty. In the agricultural estimates I find these items: Experimental Farm, $1,315,000; Administration and enforcement of the Destructive Insect and Pest Act, $235,000: Health of Animals, administration and enforcement of the Animal Contagious Diseases, and Meat and Canned Food Acts, $1,710,000, and so on, and all these items make a total of over $6,000,000. If that is not a direct assistance to the agricultural interests, I do not know what it is. It does not assist me as a professional man, and it does not assist manufacturing or any other interests. It is certainly a direct assistance to the agricultural interest, and therefore it is a bounty to that interest. So far as I am concerned, I support it, and support it whole-heartedly, and I think it should be carried out. But I think the members of the agricultural section of this House should be consistent when they criticise bounties, and if they are going to absolutely condemn all bounties in their criticisms in this House, then they should go after the agricultural bounty in the present estimates.


Mr. SPEAKMAN:: I wish to ask a question, which perhaps is not in order, but the hon. gentleman referred to the votes for the administration and enforcement of the Destructive Insect and Pest Act, Health of Animals, administration and enforcement of the Animal Contagious Diseases, and Meat and Canned Food Acts, and so on. I would like to know how the hon. member could call that a bonus to the agricultural interest. As a matter of fact, it is due to a large extent-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order, order.


George Newcombe Gordon: I draw the attention of the committee to the fact that this is getting almost beyond the bounds of order, because the particular item deals with the expenditure in connection with rails and so on, $735,000, and while it is quite possible to make comparisons, such as were made by the hon. gentleman from Marquette, it is

getting now beyond the bounds of relevancy to this particular item.


Alfred Speakman: I think so.


Robert James Manion: I think the Chairman is quite right. I shall apply anything I have to say to the item under discussion. I wish to say that when you help to relieve unemployment, as is requested by my hon. friend from Cape Breton South (Mr. Kyte), who asks that work under this item be performed in the steel mills in his constituency, it is reasonable to do so, even if that work does cost this country a little more than it costs in some other plant. Is it not better for this country that we should pay a few more dollars that way, than that we should hand out doles, as a charity, to the unemployed of this country? I certainly think it is, and I am perfectly in accord with the request of the hon. member for Cape Breton South, when he requests that the steel mills should, if possible, if the expense be not too great, be kept in employment in times such as these. I say that, perhaps, with a certain amount of selfishness, because, if the unemployment became very bad in New Ontario, I should certainly be one of the first to request that the New Ontario corporations should be assisted in the same way to prevent unemployment continuing. I should like to have dealt with one or two other remarks of the hon. member for Marquette, but seeing that objection is taken, I think I shall have to refrain at the present time.


Georges Henri Boivin: It is not my intention to enter into a discussion of the bounty question to-night, because I think you had good reason to declare it out of order. The proper time for this discussion will be the budget debate. There is, however, a very important question before this committee to-night in connection with this item, and that is: Are the Canadian National Railways administered by the Canadian National Railway Board, or were they administered by the late government on the eve of the last general election for political purposes? The ex-Minister of Railways (Mr. Stewart) tells us he and his government had absolutely nothing to do with the sending of a train load of rails to a certain constituency on the eve of the election, and I think, in giving that answer, he was perfectly right in theory. But if he was right in theory in giving that answer, was the late government right in deciding where these orders were to be placed? "Oh, but," he said, "there were a great many

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private corporations who did absolutely the same thing, who placed orders for goods they did not need, in order to relieve unemployment." I sat in this House during the last session, and if I remember rightly,
I heard a great deal about unemployment and about the methods employed by the late government to relieve that condition. During the recess I heard a great deal about unemployment, but the government made no move in the way of giving orders until the month of October, after the general election had been announced, and when it was once more seeking the support of the people of Canada. Then they thought of unemployment, and what did they do? They passed an Order in Council authorizing a member of their government, the Minister of Labour, to put the gun to the head of the administrators of the Canadian National Railways and tell them when and where they should get their cars repaired, and when and where they should buy their rails. The ex-Minister of Railways said that private corporations did the same thing, but I should like him to name one private corporation that purchased goods from other similar corporations when its own shops were closed and its own employees were going without labour and without food. It is well known that the Canadian government railway shops at St. Malo, while they were, perhaps, not completely dosed, were working on very short time with a greatly reduced staff. The Grand Trunk shops in the city of Montreal were working on short time with a reduced staff. The shops at FraserviTle were working on short time with a reduced staff, and at Moncton the same state of affairs existed. What happened? Was employment given to their own men? Did they prevent their own machinery from being ruined 'by rust and neglect? Did they endeavour t,o use it by giving employment to their own men? Not at all. They closed up their own shops and they gave work to other firms. They did that by Order in Council. What right did the late government have to decide by Order in Council where the work should be done? If the late government desired to operate the National Railways of Canada and were brave and courageous enough to say so, well and good; but that is not what they pretended. They told us in the last Parliament that they had absolutely nothing to do with the National Railways. When they were asked an ordinary question concerning disbursements, or the cost of coal, or supplies, or rails, or cars, they said; We do not know
anything about that. We will ask Mr. Hanna in Toronto. We cannot give you an answer; we have no right to give you an answer. We have nothing to do with the administration of these roads. 'They maintained that attitude until Parliament had been dissolved, until the candidates of all political parties were before their electors, and then they decided to change all this and pass Orders in Council to oblige Mr. Hanna and his associates to place their orders just exactly where the government would decide.
It may be argued that an Order in Council was necessary to provide the funds. There was no Order in Council passed to provide the funds in the month of October last. A Governor General's Warrant was passed, on the 21st December, 1921, to pay the debts contracted just a few days before the late government laid down the reins of office. The first Order in Council was passed in order to enable the then Minister of Labour to wield the big stick we heard so much about the other night, and to tell the board of directors of the Canadian National Railways where those orders would be given. The hon. member for Fort William and Rainy River (Mr. Manion) said that he would support this Government if it did the same thing. I should like to ask him if he woulld support this Government, if it took damaged cars from his constituency, from the other side of Fort William, and brought them to St. Malo, in the province of Quebec, to have them repaired, while his own shops were biased or running on short time.


Robert James Manion: Speaking generally, I would not; tout the question depends a little on unemployment conditions at the time. I know nothing about the St. Malo shops; but I repeat what I said a few minutes ago; I do .know that whatever contracts were given in northern Ontario, which is a part of the Country I am most familiar with, did a great dCal to relieve the situation of unemployment and were very badly needed.


Georges Henri Boivin: Exactly. The action
taken toy the late government on the eve of the election relieved unemployment where they wanted to relieve it and created unemployment where they wanted it to be created, or where they did not care whether it was created or not.
Mr. MANION; Would it not be a rather peculiar thing if they relieved unemployment where they did not want to relieve it?
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Georges Henri Boivin: It would have been a very peculiar thing, but not half so peculiar as many things accomplished by the late government. My closing remarks are that from the explanations of the ex-Minister of Railways-and I may be very dense- I have not yet been able to understand why an Order in Council was necessary. I have not yet understood why a government, that had nothing to do with the administration of the National Railways, could empower a Minister of Labour by Order in Council to direct where this work should be done, and I have yet to learn that it is good policy for any corporation to close its own shops and use its money to have its work performed by other institutions while its own machinery and employees are absolutely idle.


John Alexander Stewart: The hon. member for Shefford (Mr. Boivin) has expressed very great surprise that the late government found it necessary to pass an Order in Council in order to determine where certain car repairs should be carried on. No such Order in Council was passed; no Order in Council was ever passed directing where any work would be done. He also expresses very great surprise that an Order in Council should have been passed by the late government providing that the Minister of Railways should wield the big stick-


Georges Henri Boivin: I said, the Minister of Labour.
Mr. STEWART (Lanark) that the Minister of Labour should wield the big stick and direct the officers of the two railway boards where the cars were to be repaired. No such Order in Council was ever passed, and there was no Order in Council giving to the Minister of Labour the right to determine where# the work should be done.


Georges Henri Boivin: What did he have to do with the matter then?


John Alexander Stewart: He had
nothing further to do with it than was authorized in the Order in Council itself-


Georges Henri Boivin: Hear. hear.


John Alexander Stewart: -to confer with the representatives of the boards.


Some Hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


John Alexander Stewart: It seems
remarkable that hon. gentlemen should be so much amused that, in the consideration of the question of unemployment, the

Minister of Labour and the Labour Department should be brought into consultation. The whole question of the placing of orders, of the number of cars to be repaired, of the number of rails to be ordered, was one with which the late government, neither directly nor indirectly, had any voice. I should like to make that clear.


Georges Henri Boivin: Except the Minister of Labour.


John Alexander Stewart: The Minister of Labour had absolutely nothing to do with it.


Thomas Vien: What did he do then to relieve unemployment?


John Alexander Stewart: If my hon. friend is not able to grasp the situation, I am afraid I cannot help him. Neither the late government nor the late Minister of Labour had a single thing to say or had any voice in the question of what cars were to be repaired, what supplies were to be purchased. That was a matter that was entirely within the jurisdiction of the two boards. Let there be no mistake about that. No attempt was made on behalf of the government to influence either board in any direction.


Walter George Mitchell: The hon. member said a moment ago that the Minister of Labour was to confer with someone or another with reference to the expenditure of this money. With whom was he to confer?


John Alexander Stewart: Possibly I would make myself clear to the committee if I said this, that the Minister of Labour was to be the source of information as to the question of unemployment in the country.


Walter George Mitchell: To whom was that information to be given?


John Alexander Stewart: That information was to 'be available for the members of the two boards of the Canadian Northern and the Grand Trunk, in whose hands the whole question of the placing of these orders and the purchase of supplies rested.


Georges Henri Boivin: Why was that included in the Order in Council?


John Alexander Stewart: Why was what included?


Georges Henri Boivin: The fact that the Minister of Labour should advise.

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John Alexander Stewart: Because the whole situation was 'predicated on unemployment.


Georges Henri Boivin: So that it was included in the Order in Council.


John Alexander Stewart: Yes. The Minister of Labour could not direct where a single order should go. He could give to the officials of the two boards the information as to unemployment which goes to the department and is on record there.


Thomas Vien: Will my hon. friend tell me whether the Minister of Labour at the time advised the board of the Canadian National Railways as to where there was unemployment to be relieved?


John Alexander Stewart: I have no knowledge of that: I never was present.
Some non. MEMBERS: Oh, oh.


John Alexander Stewart: Hon. gentlemen laugh; tout I would ask them in what respect it would be possible for me to have the information which my hon. friend has just asked for?


Thomas Vien: It should be possible, because you were Minister of Railways.


John Alexander Stewart: The Minister of Railways, under the law as it stands and as it stood then, has absolutely no authority to place orders for supplies. Surely my hon. friend know? that. That was the condition in October of last year, and it is the condition to-day.


Thomas Vien: Can my hon. friend explain why 100 men were discharged at Fraser-ville when there was unemployment there, while unemployment was relieved elsewhere?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: And 300 in Quebec
city?


John Alexander Stewart: I am afraid I cannot make the matter clearer to my hon. friend. If unemployment existed in the industries that were owned by the government, that was something of which the government had no notice; and I know that in the placing of all orders consideration was taken of the whole question of unemployment, not only in connection with the industries owned and operated by the government, but throughout the country as well. With regard to the question of the Minister of Labour (Mr. Murdock) as to whether or not the late Minister of Railways knew that cars were taken from Montreal to Nova Scotia to be repaired, I
do understand that cars were taken from the province of Quebec to Nova Scotia to be rebuilt, and they were taken there for two reasons: first, because some of the car companies, not only in the province of Quebec, but also some in Nova Scotia, were not equipped for the handling of the class of work that was to toe done; and, secondly, because at that particular time the condition of unemployment was much more severe in some centres of the province of Nova Scotia than in Montreal, where the work might have been done had it been done in the province of Quebec.


Mr VIEN:: And the relief in Nova Scotia served a more useful purpose.


William Duff: The minister has given two reasons. I might add a third: Colonel Cantley was a Tory candidate.


John Alexander Stewart: That is a matter which the member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff) will have to thresh out with the boards of the two lines who placed the order.


William Duff: Colonel Cantley was a
member of the board.


John Alexander Stewart: That is a matter that does not go to the *oot of the whole question, for the reason-


William Duff: And he was defeated too.


John Alexander Stewart: -that the department did not place the wder.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: That ord' r went to grease the wheels, so to speak.


John Alexander Stewart: !l wish to make one further reference to what was said by the Minister of Labour, who referred to the placing of orders through the Minister of Railways. If I understood him aright that is what he told the House.


James Murdock: What I said was that the impression had been conveyed to me repeatedly during the first two or three months I was in office, by representatives of these car concerns, that all previous orders for the repair of cars at New Glasgow, Amherst, Montreal, Hamilton and Fort William, had been m '^e as the result of recommendations made by the Minister of Labour, as to the unemployment situation in the particular localities. Those recommendations were made through the Minister of Railways to the officers of the boards of directors of the National railways, and the orders went forth ac-

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cordingly. I was given to understand that all that was necessary was for me to realize the unemployment situation in the various localities interested in the matter, and to make the necessary recommendations to the Minister of Railways, and that he would pass the word along to the board of directors, who would be only too glad to place another order for the repairs of additional cars, if we had additional cars to repair.


John Alexander Stewart: I desire to state without any qualification that all that was said to my hon. friend the Minister of Labour as to what took place last fall is entirely without foundation in fact. I have no mental reservations on the matter. I declare that his statement with reference to what took place has absolutely no foundation in fact at all.


Mr. LOGAN:: I desire to speak on this matter only because it seems to me that there is a considerable amount of misinformation, not only on the part of hon. members directly opposite, but on this side of the House as well. In the first place, it is admitted to-day by the best railway concerns on this continent that it is not a paying proposition for railways to repair their own cars. In the United States there is not a single big concern to-day that does so. In Buffalo and in other parts of the United States there are large car repairing plants that do this sort of work, not for the government, but for private railway systems in that country. As regards this order that was placed by the late government and which is being completed at the present time, I would venture to say that in the Canada Car and Foundry Company's shops in Amherst the repairs have been made at 30 per cent less than they could be done in the government shops in any part of the Canadian National Railway system.


Georges Parent: What about the Canadian Pacific railway?


Hance James Logan: They are also giving out work for repairs. Now, what are the facts? I am not here to discuss whether or not this order was given with a view to political effect. If it was, they made a mess of it, because they did not get to work until about three days before the election. As I say, I know not what the idea was from the political standpoint; but I do know that if ever there was a government or a railway board that was justified

in giving work to car companies in Amherst and New Glasgow, that government existed last October. I say this in justice to these towns, although possibly the statement may not be popular on this side of the House. In the town of Amherst, in which I live when at home, there are ordinarily employed in the different industries 2,300 men. Last fall out of those 2,300 workmen less than 400 had employment. For some months the local car works, which had employed from 1,000 to 1,250 men, were absolutely idle; men walked the streets; women were suffering; children were in want; the town itself spent large sums of money in attempting to deal with the situation; a relief association was formed and distributed thousands of dollars collected from the people; the red cross society endeavoured to cope with the situation. This order for five hundred cars was a godsend to the town.


Thomas Vien: Does my hon. friend realize
that the criticism directed against the late government was not because they gave a car order to Amherst to relieve unemployment, but because they delayed doing so until the election campaign began, granting relief only when they thought it might be useful to them?


Hance James Logan: I am not here to tell
my hon. friend or anyone else what was in the mind of the late government. I am reciting the condition of affairs that existed in Amherst at that time, a condition which demanded immediate relief, and I am only saying that the best managed railroads throughout this continent are adopting this particular principle of placing their cars for repairs in outside shops. I am also pointing out that the government would have been derelict in its duty if it had not come to the rescue of the unemployed in Amherst last fall; there is no question about that.
Someone has said that certain Grand Trunk cars were brought down to New Glasgow for repair. Why? Because they were steel cars which could not be repaired anywhere else, as the ex-Minister of Railways (Mr. Stewart) stated to-niglff
Let me now speak particularly to my hon. friends directly opposite. We expect this fall the greatest crop that western Canada has ever produced. We all pray that it may be so. There are to-day on the government-owned roads and roads controlled by the government about 15,000 cars needing repairs. Suppose there is a

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bumper crop in the West this fall, do you not think that any government should be reprimanded that did not put those cars in proper order to move that crop? Why should not the Government place those cars in the repair shops and relieve unemployment?


Thomas Vien: At what date was unemployment felt for the first time in Amherst?


Hance James Logan: About fifteen years ago we had unemployment.


Thomas Vien: At what time did the late government start relief there?


Hance James Logan: It was about fifteen years ago that we first had unemployment in Amherst, and then the government of my late lamented chief, Sir Wilfrid Laurier, placed contracts with the Robb Engineering Works for the repair of locomotives, to relieve the situation. That was the precedent which was established for putting work in private shops. I believe that the late government was not only justified in placing this order, but I also believe that it is the absolute duty of the present Government to relieve by similar means the unemployment situation existing in these towns to-day.


Georges Henri Boivin: Would the hon. gentlemen tell the committee if in his opinion the law as it stands to-day permitted the late government, or permits this Government, to dictate to the management of the Canadian National Railways where they shall place orders for the repair of cars?


Hance James Logan: I do not think that question is relevant to this discussion. If I did think so I would say that as the Government owns 22,000 miles of railways, and has the right to do anything for the relief of unemployment, it is its duty to take such action as may be necessary to that end. I may be defending the action of the late government.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


Thomas Vien: Does my hon. friend believe that the late government should have started before dissolution to relieve unemployment?


William Duff: A lPtle bit sooner.


Hance James Logan: Unemployment was not acute in Amherst until about August of last year. Let us be honest in this matter now. That is when unemployment became acute.


Thomas Vien: You said it began ten years ago.	*


Hance James Logan: I said that unemployment became acute in August of last year; but in order to satisfy my hon. friend that we had a precedent for what was done by the late government, I reminded him that some years ago the government of the late Sir Wilfri'd Laurier awarded contracts for the repair' of locomotives in Amherst when there was unemployment there, although unemployment was not acute at that time.
I do not think that our friends opposite should take the view which they do upon this question, because they may need these very cars within a few months, and we all hope they will. If it is true that there are 15,000 cars which need to be repaired, and if there is unemployment in this country, I think that a government instead of handing out doles here and there should give work to these men, who do not want charity but wages.
A good deal has been said to-night as to unemployment at Moncton, Fraserville and other places. I do not know the condition of affairs except in Moncton, and I deny that there was unemployment at Moncton at the time or that a single workman was displaced by giving this order to the Canadian Car and Foundry Company to relieve unemployment in Amherst. There is not the slightest doubt that an emergency existed in that town and that the relief was absolutely necessary.


Mr. SIMPSON:: Considerable criticism
has been levelled against the late government for having placed certain orders last fall for steel rails and other equipment in order to relieve unemployment. The hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan) has described much more forcibly than I can the conditions prevailing in some of our industrial centres last fall. If some hon. gentlemen who have been criticising the action of the government at that time could have seen those conditions, I do not think they would be so ready to condemn the course that was then taken in placing orders in anticipation of our rail requirements in order that employment might be given to our workmen during the winter months.
The hon. member for Lotbiniere (Mr. Vien) asked when the unemployment commenced. I may say that strong representations were made to the managements of the railway companies last spring by representatives of the steel companies at

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Sydney and Sault Ste. Marie to place railway business in.order to provide employment for the men during the summer season. Accordingly, the orders were placed; they were completed in the fall, and the men were faced with unemployment in the winter. It was only natural, therefore, that the Minister of Labour should suggest to the railway companies that they should anticipate their requirements in the matter of rails and place orders so as to provide against unemployment. That is what was done. It is said that this course was adopted for political purposes. Well, so far as rail orders were concerned, at any rate, if it was adopted for that purpose it did not have the desired effect, because the greater portion of the rail orders were given to the mills at Sydney. What was the result? The hon. member for Cape Breton asked the Minister of Railways to have the managements of the railways anticipate their requirements to provide against the unemployment that has been existing down there for some time. I quite sympa-
10 p.m. thize with him in the situation that he finds there. But let me tell you how the steel company in the constituency that I represent took care of the business that was given to them last fall. They realized that if they worked on full shift they could turn the order out in a very short time, and that the men would again be out of employment; so they put the mill on single shift and were thus able, on the business which they got at that time, to keep the wheels turning until about the middle of April. They sustained a loss of over half a million dollars in their endeavour to play fair with the companies that gave them the orders and with the men whom they employed. Is it not much better that the management of the government railways should anticipate their needs in this regard than that they should hand out large sums of money to relieve distress and suffering throughout the country, as the Department of Labour has had to do? You find in the estimates appropriations for over $500,000 to be paid out for relief

practically charity. The men do not want that; all they are asking for is an opportunity to work to earn an honest living for themselves.
Apparently the hon. member for Marquette does not think very kindly of the steel companies in this country; he criticises severely the subsidies or bounties granted to them in order that they might become established. While he is correct

in stating that the bounties amounted to some $15,000,000, I may say that four of the largest steel companies in Canada have paid back to the Dominion treasury, through the medium of customs taxes on machinery and supplies, more than they received from the Government by way of bounties. The Algoma Steel Corporation in Sault Ste. Marie has a pay roll of approximately $8,000,000 a year. Think of the immense amount of tonnage that is provided for the National railways as a result of the operations of that corporation. Think of the amount of money that is collected by way of income tax upon the salaries of their officials and some of their better paid employees. When these things are taken into consideration, the amount paid by way of bounties is very small indeed, compared with the return that has been made to the public treasury. Moreover, when war broke out and Canada was asked to make munitions, we were able to do it only because we had the steel companies to take up this work. The hon. member for Marquette is very critical when it comes to the matter of bounties, but he is not so critical of the amounts found in the estimates to provide relief to needy settlers in Alberta and Saskatchewan by way of necessary supplies, wood, clothing, fuel, etc., and fodder for their animals. The amount provided for that purpose this year is $325,000, and a similar amount was voted last year. I do not criticise that at all, but is it not better for the government railways to anticipate their needs and thus provide work for the unemployed, than to hand out doles and charities?


Thomas Vien: Was any unemployment relieved in my hon. friend's riding?


Thomas Edward Simpson: Unemployment certainly was relieved in my riding and in the city of Sault Ste. Marie as the result of rail orders placed. No part of the $500,000 that is to toe passed by this House for the purposes of relief is going to Sault Ste. Marie,
[DOT]-due to the fact that this rail order was placed.
The other day the hon. member for Marquette pleaded eloquently against the appointment by the Government of a special railway committee, to consider the question of freight rates, but suggested that the Crowsnest pass agreement toe allowed to again come into effect. He realizes that our railways have to be run on a business basis and that a proper schedule of rates must be maintained if increased deficits

Supply-Railways and Canals
are to be avoided; yet he asks for the restoration of the Crowsnest pass agreement in July, the effect of which would be materially to reduce the earning power of the national railways and to confer the greatest proportion of benefit on the shippers of grain in the West. Why, then, should he object when it is suggested that rail orders should be placed in advance to provide for unemployment, thus avoiding the necessity of handing out large sums for the purposes of relief?


Mr. HOEY:: Now that the oratorical
contest is ended, I would like to speak on behalf of the few in this corner of the House who still survive and who are fearful of a second attack. I would like to ask the minister how much of this money spent on car repairing was expended in the city of Winnipeg, and in the town of Transcona, where the government shops are located, and where the men were working on short time throughout the months already referred to in this debate? I put this question because I would like the people of these constituencies to know the extent to which the government came to their relief at that time when unemployment was rampant. I cannot see why my constituency should be discriminated against in favour of the constituency represented by my hon. friend from Fort William and Rainy River.


Robert James Manion: Before that question is answered may I point out one little fact to my hon. friend on my left-this is just for the information of the committee. While a contract was given for the repairing of cars in Fort William-I forgot to mention the fact before-the work on that contract was not done until one month after the election was over. That may answer my hon. friend's question. It did not have very much to do with the election apparently. If there had been a desire to influence the election the work would have begun one month at least before the election was over.


Robert Alexander Hoey: That is not a reply to my question.


William Costello Kennedy: In reply to my hon. friend, as regards the 2,000 cars mentioned in the Order in Council under discussion no orders were placed in the city of Winnipeg.


Mr. IRVINE:: I would like to make one suggestion. If the Government have discovered any irregularities in connection with this matter on the part of the former government, they should make a charge to that effect publicly and follow it to a logical conclusion. The discussion on this matter for political reasons does not seem to get us anywhere whatsoever.
I would suggest that the Government should do that and then let us pass the estimate and get on with business in view of the fact that so much time has already been spent in the discussion of this matter.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
William Charles Good: I want to make a suggestion. It has already been stated by the ex-Minister of Railways that the practice has been followed of giving orders and making no payments until deliveries have been made. Now, I do think we must have some regard for conditions of unemployment, and I want to suggest that possibly orders can be given without specifying any prices, and that the prices to be paid finally when delivery is made be competitive prices. In that way our railways in the country will be protected against any kind of loss.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I did not have the opportunity of being present-


George Newcombe Gordon: I draw the hon.
member's attention to the fact that the item has been passed.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I submit, Mr. Chairman, that the hon. member who has just resumed his seat was speaking to that item.


George Newcombe Gordon: I do not know what he was speaking to, but the item has been passed. However, if the committee is satisfied-


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I have heard you declare items carried on other occasions and other hon gentlemen have risen to their feet and spoken after you had made the declaration. I understand that some criticism has been indulged in with respect to the expenditure under this item last year.


George Newcombe Gordon: If the hon. member will allow me to read the next item his remarks will be pertinent to it and quite in order.


Supply-Railways and Canals

Staff and repairs-further amount required, $91,000.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: 
Thomas Alexander Crerar: I want to correct a wrong impression in the mind of the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Macdonald). He did not hear the rather animated discussion before he entered the Chamber, or he would not be labouring under a misapprehension, as he appears to be doing just now. No one from the West, or from any other part of Canada, as far as I know, is objecting to having cars repaired.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Where are you going to repair them?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: They should be repaired wherever they can be repaired to best advantage. We have repair shops attached to the Canadian National Railways. I submit that, when we have plants for the repairing of these cars, our own plants should have the opportunity of repairing them. I know it was argued by the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan)-probably with a good deal of reason; I do not know-that in the United States the railways are giving their repair works out to private corporations. That may be. I am not discussing that aspect of the question. The point that I endeavoured to bring out earlier in the evening is that it is not a sound business policy to let contracts for the purpose of relieving unemployment at higher costs or higher prices than would otherwise obtain.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: They were not let at other prices than would otherwise obtain.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That information has yet to be disclosed.


John Alexander Stewart: Does the hon. gentleman suggest that the contracts that >
were given last fall were at a higher price than would otherwise obtain?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My hon. friend, the exMinister of Railways (Mr. Stewart) appears unduly sensitive in respect to this. My remarks earlier in the evening were in response to the remarks of my hon. friend from Cape Breton South and Richmond (Mr. Kyte) in which he argued that it would be sound policy for this Government to borrow money, build cars, make rails and store them up against the future.
I submit that is not a sound policy, and it was against that principle of doing business in connection with our national railways that I was protesting and that I still protest. It is not sound business. Our National Railways are operating under a great handicap. We have deficits in operation. We are unable to meet our fixed charges. We have a constant stream of criticism coming from those who are opposed to government ownership of these railways, and we have the railways, not by virtue of our belief in the principle of public ownership, but because of the absolute and complete breakdown of private ownership. Now when we have them, let us handle them in a business way. That is all I am pleading for or suggesting. I am not suggesting, and no one is suggesting, that we should go along without making the necessary repairs to cars and engines, but I maintain it should be done according to sound business practice.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Does my hon. friend want to continue paying in the shops the McAdoo award wages, which are a great deal higher than are paid in the ordinary steel industries of this country, where steel cars are repaired? They are paying higher wages in the United States and cars are repaired at a much greater cost than when we have the arrangement for the repairs of cars on the cost plus basis. But that is not the policy he suggests. It is all very well to talk of repair shops at all points of the Canadian National railways. He has not the slightest conception in regard to the repair shop. There is not a repair shop on the Canadian National where they can repair a steel car, which is the modern car used in the transportation of freight in this country, and, therefore, it was wise and sound policy to send the steel cars to be repaired at these places where steel cars are made, and steel cars are not made in any shop that belongs to the Canadian National railways. It was sound and wise policy to have cars repaired on the basis of cost plus, rather than to pay the McAdoo award wages and the Chicago award wages in the ordinary shops of the country. That is the position of the matter. Moreover, in a very great number of cases the repairs could not be made in the ordinary repair shops. I say, instead of giving grants to municipalities, on the basis of one-third of the expenditure being made by the municipality for the purpose of relieving unemployment it is better to undertake work of this kind having regard to the fact that these cars supply the transportation necessities of the country. It is not sound business policy

Supply-Railways and Canals
to allow these cars to remain unrepaired, or, if you are going to repair them, to repair them at a higher cost than the amount which you could have them repaired for on a business basis, and thus allow the railway to deteriorate, instead of endeavouring to keep the railway up to date. Is it not better to buy those things which are essential to the operation of a government railway system, and have them on hand, and by this means prevent unemployment, than to give money for which there is no return, on the basis of a one-third contribution by the municipality?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have no particular
quarrel with the remarks of the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Macdonald). They do not conflict with anything I said a moment ago, or earlier in the debate. By all means have repair work done where it can be done most cheaply. I am suggesting to the Minister of Railways that the Board of Directors of the National railways should do that very thing. If there is only one repair shop in which they can repair steel cars, they will have to go there. I can tell the hon. member that, as far as western , Canada is concerned, there are tens of thousands of cars hauling grain and not one of them is a steel car. At the very time when the unemployment question was very serious, and the orders were placed last autumn for the relief of unemployment, there was not a single car sent to Trans-cona shops, which are situated a few miles from Winnipeg, where millions of dollars have been spent in establishing a car plant for the National railways. I really think that the hon. member for Pictou has not caught the sense of my remark, and I have no quarrel with what he said.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The only difference between the hon. member and myself is that apparently he wants to have the cars repaired at Transcona. There is a car shop there, and he thinks they should all be taken to that shop, although he does not know whether they can repair them there or not. If they do not go there, does he . object to cars in eastern Canada going to Shops which are quite handy, if they can be repaired at a less cost than in the other shops?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Not at all.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The hon. gentleman agrees with me.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Certainly.
[ Mr. Macdonald. ]


Hance James Logan: I desire to make one explanation which, I think, will enlighten the House as to the way in which these cars are repaired.. I regret very much, if this matter is to be disicussed, that we have not before us the contracts made by the late government, or by the Railway Board, with the different companies. I wish to say that these cars are not dealt with exactly on what we call the cost plus basis. The contract was made that the government was to pay the car companies for their labour, plus a certain small percentage, but as far as all supplies for those cars are concerned, the Government itself, or the Canadian National Board, has the right to supply every article that is required in this work, and if it is not considered that the price being charged by the company for its supplies is reasonable, it will not pay that company for those supplies, if it can show that they could have been bought for a less price elsewhere. So that it is not only a contract on the usual cost plus basis, but it is even a better contract than that, because it is only the labour cost plus.


Mr. BEAUBIEN:: While we are talking about car repairs, I desire to offer a suggestion to the Minister of Railways. Being an old railroad man myself, when I am travelling on the Canadian National railway system, it is always a pleasure to me and, in fact, second nature, to chat with railroad men. I have asked them this question:	Why do we have so many
wrecks on the Canadian National Railways? I give this to the Minister; I do not know how true it is; but they tell me that the reason is that American railways ship their old cars, loaded, of course, to Canada. These cars, which are in bad condition when they cross the border, are accepted, and shortly afterwards in Canadian territory, a journal or something else will break, and that will cause a wreck. The railway men tell me that these ears have to be repaired at the expense of the Canadian railways before they are sent back to the United States. I merely offer the suggestion to the minister that, I think, the inspection of these cars before they enter Canadian territory should be very severe.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I rise, not for the purpose
of entering into a discussion of the matter before the committee, nor to criticise the ex-Minister of Railways (Mr. Stewart), nor to come to his defence as regards contracts let for the repair of cars during the

Supply-Railways and Canals
late campaign. I feel it is my duty to correct an erroneous impression that may have been given to the committee in regard to the railway shops in the city of Moncton. When the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Macdonald) says that there is not, in the Dominion of Canada, a railway shop connected with the Canadian National Railways that is in a position to repair steel cars, I can only say that he is altogether mistaken as regards the magnificent shops in the city of Moncton belonging to the National Railway system. If my hon. friend has any doubt in his mind or fails to accept my word in regard to the matter, all he has to do is to drop off at that city, and he will see steel cars being repaired there every day of the year.
I also desire to correct an error that was made by the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan). I only wish his remarks were absolutely correct. I understood him to say that one of the reasons why the cars were-and should have been-repaired at Amherst and New Glasgow was the extreme unemployment situation ip Amherst, while not a single man was out of employment in Moncton. I only wish the facts had been as stated by the hon. member; but I would draw to his attention this fact-and I know no one understands it more clearly than the ex-Minister of Railways-that last summer between six and seven hundred employees of the Canadian National Railways were laid off in the shops in the city of Moncton, and only a small percentage of that number have been reinstated.
I rise only for the purpose of correcting those two errors that have been made by my hon. friends from Nova Scotia, and I would point out, for the information of the Minister of Railways and the committee, that, in the city of Moncton, we have, in connection with the Canadian National railway system, shops splendidly located, splendidly equipped and manned by employees who are absolutely competent and able to carry out, not only the repair of cars, but the building, construction and equipment of all classes of cars required for the Canadian National Railways.


James Dew Chaplin: A few minutes ago the Minister of Railways informed us that the price of steel rails was $49 or $50 a ton. The suggestion has been made by some hon. members that that price was not in accordance with the market. Was the price at which the rails were purchased in accordance with the market at the time?


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: One would
have gathered from the discussion this evening that I was not present when the order was placed, but I understood that the price at which it was placed was about the market price at the time. I promised the hon. member for Marquette (Mr. Cre-rar) that I would give him some information upon that point, and I hope, when my main estimates come down, to be able to give my hon. friend the information that he desires.


Walter George Mitchell: I have endeavoured two or three times to get from the exMinister of Railways (Mr. Stewart) the exact meaning of his remarks in regard to the negotiations that took place between the then Minister of Railways and the railway management or the Government officials, or whoever these negotiations took place with. In view of the discussion that has taken place in this chamber to-night, I think it would be wise if we could have that Order in Council laid on the Table of the House so that we might understand exactly what its effect was.


John Alexander Stewart: I have not a copy of the Order in Council myself, but the minister or some other member of the Government can place it on the Table. There is nothing in that document that would justify the attitude of hon. gentlemen opposite, or upon which, could rest the suspicion that appears to exist as regards the action on the part of the boards of the government railways and as regards the late government itself in permitting and authorising the action by the boards.


Walter George Mitchell: I have no suspicion at all. I simply want to find out the facts. I asked the hon. member twice, and I was unable to grasp, from the answers that he made, whom the then Minister of Railways had these negotiations with. If he can answer that question, probably we shall not need the Order in Council.


John Alexander Stewart: I have
stated several times, since this discussion started that, as regards the then Minister of Railways and any other official connected with the government, they played no part in the placing of these orders. That is surely an unqualified statement, and it is the fact.


Walter George Mitchell: That is the Department of Railways and Canals?


John Alexander Stewart: I am speaking now of the Department of Railways,

1710	,	,
Supply-Railways and Canals
because that is the official department having control of railway management. That department had nothing to do with placing the orders. The orders were placed by two boards as a result of conferences held between certain members of those boards, as I understand the matter and understand it still, and the Canadian Pacific Railway. The only connection between any government official and the boards in the consideration of the matter was that the Labour Department, through its minister, was the fount of information upon questions of unemployment upon which they might wish to secure information. The then Minister of Railways played no part in any connection further than to secure the authorization through Council of the necessary financial arrangements to give effect to what was decided upon. That is the whole story as regards the Department of Railways and the then government. I might qualify that by this, that when the petitions and memorials and all the other communications came to the department from municipalities in which unemployment was most severe-


Walter George Mitchell: Which department?


John Alexander Stewart: The Department of Railways. There is no question that we received petitions from municipalities, boards of trade, and labour organizations.	;


Walter George Mitchell: Why were these petitions sent to the Minister of Railways? Should they not, in the ordinary course, be addressed to the Minister of Labour?


John Alexander Stewart: 'I do not know why they were sent to the Minister of Railways, but my hon. friend will bear me out when I say that there is generally throughout the country a great misconception as to the part which the Department of Railways plays in the actual management of the nationally owned railway system. That is a condition for which the late government was not responsible, and one for which this Government would not be responsible. There is a very large Volume of public opinion in this country that the Department of Railways and Canals plays a direct part in the administration of the National Railway System. I do not know how it is now, but I do know that it was not an uncommon expectation on the part of the public that the department should reinstate employees, purchase ties, and do all manner of things incidental to the administration of the system. That

condition obtained in the past, and I have no doubt it obtains to-day, and what the department is obliged to do is to pass these things on to the board to which each particular instance may relate. Unquestionably representations were made to the Government and, as well, to the Minister of Railways, from day to day with reference to unemployment. There was only one thing for the Government to do, and that was to pass them on to the board whose duty it was to deal with them. And that was done. But so far as the Minister of Railways was concerned, let me make it quite clear that neither he nor any other officer of the Government played any part in deciding what rails it was wise to buy, or what cars it was wise or necessary to rebuild or repair. Not one word was offered by the minister or any officer of the Government as to where cars should be repaired. The Minister of Labour supplied to those who had the deciding of the matter the information with reference tc unemployment in the different centres where rails were manufactured and cars built and where there were industries suitably equipped for carrying on the work. But, as I say, neither the Minister of Railways nor any other officer of the Government had anything to say in the matter.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: In response to the request of the hon. member for St. Antoine (Mr. Mitchell), I shall be glad to lay the Order in Council on the Table tomorrow.	.


William Findlay Maclean: Listening to the discussion to-night, it appears to me that we are arguing altogether on false premises. If the Canadian National Railway system or public ownership is to be made a success, are we going to continue the policy of making the Canadian National railways the scapegoat in regard to all unemployment throughout the Dominion of Canada? Knowing the Minister of Railways (Mr. Kennedy), as I do, to be a shrewd business man, I do not believe that he will tolerate any such condition as that. If this or any other government is to make a success of the Canadian National railways it is their duty to place these orders where they can be executed at the lowest possible cost; and if there is unemployment to be dealt with in the country, then let the Government have a policy to cope with that situation, in keeping with the efforts that are being made by the local governments and the municipalities in the various provinces. But I contend that it is an entirely wrong principle that, in order to

Supply-Immigration
relieve unemployment in any part of the country, some particular public service, such as the Canadian National railways, should be saddled with a burden which would inevitably be reflected back in the freight rates, in respect of which we have complaints coming from all parts of the country. I think the Government would be well advised if they adhered to strict business principles, and having every confidence in the Minister of Railways, I take it that he will do so..


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Post Office Department.-to hereby increase from March 1, 1921, the salary of the retiring General Superintendent of Postal Service to the rate he is now receiving, namely $5,700 per annum, $325.
Contingencies-Clerical	Assistance-further
amount required, $6,000-Printing and Stationery-further amount required, $14,000, $20,325.
Hon. CHARLES MURPHY (Postmaster General) :: The first amount in this item is to provide a sum necessary to make the salary of the retiring General Superintendent of Postal Service from the first of March, 1921, equal to the amount which he is at present receiving. The gentleman in question has been in the postal service of this country for 47 years, having rendered notable and efficient service. Unfortunately, his health has broken down and he has applied for superannuation, and this small amount is required to put his retiring allowance from March 1, 1921, on the basis of the salary he is now receiving. As worked out it will increase his retiring allowance only to the extent of $75 per year. The second amount is $6,000 for clerical assistance, due to the fact that in the Main Estimates for last year the amount voted was found in the year's operations to be insufficient. By arrangement between the Finance Department and the Post Office Department, the latter was allowed to overdraw its appropriation to this extent on condition that the overdraft would be provided for in the Supplementary Estimates. Hence this item. The $14,000 is a vote to cover a shortage in the estimates of last year for supplies of printing and stationery that were obtained through the Printing Bureau on condition that the shortage, as in the case of the preceding item, would be provided for in the supplementary estimates.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
To provide for urgent engineer services in Quebec (Governor General's warrant, Febuuary 10, 1922), $19,350.
Thomas Alexander Crerar: Will the minister explain this expenditure?


George Perry Graham: Our engineer in Quebec reported that the roof of the ordnance building was leaking badly and some damage had already been done. While he had his staff there to attend to these repairs he reported that he could also undertake some other repairs which would have to be done in a couple of months, and by doing all the work together the cost would be much lower. So we had the warrant cover the whole amount.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Civil Pensions, Life pensions to Robert Allen, Ronald Morrison, Walter Pettipas, $1,115,42.
George Perry Graham: Vote 406 is inserted
here in error; it should be in the supplementary estimates for the present year. I therefore wish the three items under this vote to be dropped. They will reappear in the other supplementary estimates.
Items dropped.



IMMIGRATION

[Stage Direction]
Civil Government-Department of Immigration and Colonization-contingencies-further amount required (Governor General's warrant. February 22, 1922), $12,000.
Mr. SPENCER:: Will the minister
explain?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This further amount is required because owing to the extraordinary conditions prevailing on the continent of Europe in regard to immigration work it was found necessary to delegate high officials of the department to Belgium, Italy, Poland, etc., to investigate and study existing conditions in those countries with a view to regulating the emigration movement to Canada. The travelling and living expenses of these high officials, some of whom remained there many months, were naturally heavier than if they had travelled in Canada; the result being that our appropriations for this service are being found inadequate to meet our obligations chargeable to that particular vote.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Adjustment of War Claims-Immigration and Colonization (Governor General's warrant, November 11, 1921), $140,000,
John Warwick King: This item is to cover expenses incurred under the provisions of order in council 179 of January
Supply-Indians

29, 1919, and amending orders authorizing the repatriation at public expense of the dependents of men who served in the Canadian military and naval forces. When the departmental estimates for 1921-22 were prepared, a sum of $150,000 was applied for to meet the expenses of this service for the current fiscal year. This sum having, however, been reduced to $25,000, it was entirely inadequate to meet the liabilities, and after a careful estimate, based on liabilities already1 incurred and the estimated sum required to meet our obligations to the end of the fiscal year, 1921-22, it was found necessary to apply for a special warrant of $140,000, which was granted under Governor General's Warrant No. 3932 of November, 1921.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Indians-field and garden seeds-further amount required, $7,000.
Supplies for Destitute-further amount required, $34,000.
General Expenses-Further amount required, $10,600.
Arthur Meighen: What is the explanation given by the department as to why their estimates were so far below the requirements?


John Warwick King: This vote is required for field and garden seeds to the amount of $7,000. Last spring Indians who had land prepared but were without funds to purchase the necessary seed grain, and having no band funds held in trust by the department, were advanced funds upon the understanding that the cost of the seed would be refunded from the sale of grain raised. On some of the reserves in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta the crops were a failure, and in consequence the Indians are unable to make all the refunds. This vote is required to cover the deficits, as there was no appropriation in the main estimates. Had there been fair crops the whole cost would have been refunded. The Indians who still owe for seed grain will be required to make refunds from next season's crop if they have one, so that eventually the amount of this vote will be refunded, and should be regarded simply as a loan. A statement of the expenditure and refunds is given, if my hon. friend wants it.
As to the supplies for destitute, $34,000, this vote is required to pay for provisions, ammunition and twine delivered under contract during the summer of 1920 by the

Hudson's Bay Company at different points in the Peace river, Athabasca and Mac-kenie river districts. The contractors are required to have their accounts for these supplies certified by the Indian agent to whom delivery of the supplies is made, but through neglect on the part of the Hudson's Bay Company's officer at Edmonton, the certified accounts did not reach the department until after the close of the fiscal year 1920-21, and consequently payment had to be made from the appropriation for the current fiscal year, 1921-22. It became necessary, therefore, to provide for these payments as the appropriation for the fiscal year 1921-22 is insufficient to meet this extra charge. These supplies are delivered annually under contract and are to meet treaty obligations. Hitherto they have always been paid for within the fiscal year in which they are contracted for.
As to the further amount of $3,600 required for general expenses, in the supplementary estimates for 1921-22 the sum of $19,200 was included to pay for 640 acres of land at $30 an acre within the boundaries of Ermineskins reserve in the province of Alberta, but only $12,600 Was appropriated under Vote No. 518. It becomes necessary therefore to ask for a supplementary vote of $3,600 to enable the department to pay the balance due on this land.


Arthur Meighen: The amount asked for is $10,600, not $3,600.


John Warwick King: The further amount required for general expenses is $7,000. This with the previous amount will make the $10,600. This vote is required to replace the Indian agent's residence at Fort Smith, Alberta, on the Slave river, accidentally destroyed by fire on February 3 last, and it was absolutely necessary to replace it. Building materials such as hardware, windows, doors, cement, brick, building paper, etc., also a furnace, were purchased at Edmonton and transported to Fort Smith via Peace River, a distance of 988 miles. The necessary lumber was manufactured at the department's sawmill at Fort Smith, but funds had to be provided for wages, etc. The expenditure not being provided for in the main estimates, this vote becomes necessary.


Arthur Meighen: With regard to the minister's explanation of the $3,600, can he tell me whether that is the case of Janse brothers who had a section of land within an Indian reserve that the depart-

Supply-Indians
ment exchanged for a Hudson's Bay section? I remember the negotiations were pending a long while owing to a difference of opinion as to the value of the land.


John Warwick King: Under the
terms of the deed of surrender given by the Hudson's Bay Company to the Crown when relinquishing all claim to the lands in Rupert's Land and the Northwest Territories, which entitled the company to claim grants of land up to one-twentieth of all lands set out for settlement within the fertile belt, the section of land referred to passed to the Hudson's Bay Company. In September, 1885, the limits of the Ermineskins Indian reserve were surveyed by this department, in accordance with the terms of the treaty, and this section was included. This reserve was confirmed by Order in Council, dated May 17, 1889.
In 1906 the Hudson's Bay Comil p.m. pany sold this section to Messrs.
Janse brothers, of Calgary, both parties evidently having entered into the transaction in good faith, without the knowledge of its being part of an Indian reserve. Messrs. Janse brothers are unable to make use of their land as it is part of an Indian reserve. The department has endeavoured to arrange the matter by obtaining an exchange of lands, but the Indians refused to give a surrender, and the only recourse is to purchase from Messrs. Janse brothers. They have signified their willingness to accept $30 per acre, and to assign to the Crown whatever title they have received from the Hudson's Bay Company.


Arthur Meighen: The price paid seems to me rather high. When was the arrangement completed for the purchase of it?


John Warwick King: Some months ago, I am informed-before December 6.


Arthur Meighen: That may be. I remember when I was in the department we tried for years to make the exchange and we had great difficulty in doing it. We sought to refer it to an arbitration, but never were able to get that done. The price was below $30 an acre. But I do not just see why this should be in last year's estimates; it would be provided for in next year's estimates in the ordinary way.


John Warwick King: Some appropriation was made in the estimates of last
year to cover this, but evidently it was not sufficient.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indians-British Columbia-
Relief to destitute-further amount required	 $ 4.000
Mr. MacKELVIE:: Will the minister explain the details of this vote?


John Warwick King: The estimated expenditure for this service for the fiscal year 1921-22 was $31,000, but owing to circumstances over which the department has no control, it proved inadequate to meet all the demands due to various causes, namely, failure of crops in some districts, fishing restrictions imposed upon the Indians by the federal authorities, unemployment and sickness amongst the Indian population of about 25,000. The expenditure for ten months up to 28th February has actually been $26,189.44, and for the twelve months ending the 31st March, 1922, it will at least be $35,000, so that a supplementary vote of $4,000 becomes necessary.
Every effort was made to keep this expenditure within the amount voted. Each agency was apportioned its share, and instructions were issued that these amounts were not to be exceeded without first obtaining the authority of the department. There are sixteen agencies in the province and extra grants had to be made to several upon representations made by the agents that unless the amounts first allowed were not increased, there would be suffering amongst the Indians through no fault of their own. On humanitarian grounds, therefore, the department was bound to come to their relief and authorize increased expenditure.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Hospitals, medical attendance and Medicines, further amount required, $5,000.
«
Owing to circumstances over which the department has no control, namely, sickness amongst the Indians of this province, the amount appropriated for this service, $68,200, is insufficient to meet all necessary expenditure up to the 31st March, 1922, and it is estimated that a further appropriation of $5,000 will be necessary. Increase generally in hospital rates have also added to the cost of this service. When
Supply-Indians
[Stage Direction]
it is considered that there is an Indian population of about 25,000 in this province, the expenditure on this account cannot be regarded as excessive. Every effort is made to curtail the expenditure, but it is difficult to estimate accurately twelve months' ahead what it will be. The expenditure up to the 28th February has been $74,000, so that a supplementary vote is necessary.
Item agreed to.
Office, Miscellaneous and Unforeseen Expenses ; further amount required, $7,100:
An unforeseen expenditure of $2,100 was incurred in fighting forest fires that started on the Indian Reserve, at Christie Creek in the Nelson Forest District, and on the Tobacco Plains Reserve No. 2 in the Kootenay District. The fires were extinguished by the Provincial Forestry Department and much valuable timber was saved. The department repaid the provincial government on properly certified accounts, and as the estimates did not provide for this unforeseen expenditure, a supplementary vote is required. The sum of $2,000 is required to provide for payment of taxes which have been levied under the British Columbia Drainage, Dyking and Development Act in the West Nicomen District, on Indian Reserves Nos. 4 and 10 on West Nicomen Island in the New Westminster agency. As no provision was made for these taxes in the main estimates, a supplementary grant is necessary. The sum of $3,000 is required to meet expenditure it was found necessary to incur last summer in making necessary repairs to the agent's residence and office at Hazelton, B.C. When the present agent took over the duties of the late agent, who was superannuated, he reported that he found the residence and office in a very bad condition, the roof leaking, doors and window fittings (rusty and falling, floors so badly worn that carpets or linoleum could not be put down without ruining them, the paper on the walls dirty and cracked, paint dirty, chimneys unsafe and fence greatly in need of repairs. No repairs or painting had been done to this building for many years. The late agent was a bachelor, which no doubt accounts for repairs not having been made before. The present agent was therefore authorized to have the necessary repairs made as economically as possible, in order that the house might be made habitable for his family. As this expenditure was not foreseen when the main estimates were pre-

pared, provision was not made for it, and therefore a supplementary vote is necessary.
Arthur Meighen: I would call attention
to the fact that there is an item there of some $2,000 to cover taxes imposed by the provincial government in respect to some drainage. The provincial government of course, cannot impose taxes in respect of drainage or anything else assessable against Indian reserves. The way it is taken care of is by contract, by arrangement in the first place, the department agreeing to pay so much. There should not be anything on record which acknowledges the right of any government to impose taxes of this kind.


John Warwick King: It is under
the Drainage, Dyking and Development Act.


Arthur Meighen: Of the province?


John Warwick King: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: They cannot by any
act impose taxes upon Indian reserve property.


William Stevens Fielding: We pay local taxes in Ottawa for certain purposes.


Arthur Meighen: That would be by
contract.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indians-general-
Relief to destitute Indians in remote
districts-further amount required $50,000 To prevent spread of tuberculosis-further amount required	 8,000
To provide for expenses in connection with epidemics of smallpox and other diseases-further amount required.. 5,000
Arthur Meighen: What is the cause of
the very large extra amount for destitute Indians in remote districts?


John Warwick King: The estimated expenditure for this service for the fiscal year 1921-22 was $65,000, but owing to circumstances over which the department has little or no control, it proved inadequate to meet all demands.
For the ten months ending Feb. 28, accounts aggregating $116,000 have been presented for payment, and therefore a supplementary vote is necessary in order that all accounts may be paid.
Relief in the form of food, clothing, ammunition, twine, medicines and medical attendance, is provided for Indians and Eskimo who live in the more remote districts of the Dominion and are dependent entirely on the hunt for their existence.

Supply-Genoa Conference
This relief is administered by the fur trading companies at their various posts [DOT]where t'he department has, no resident agents, and the department has endeavoured from time to time to control and curtail this expenditure as much as possible by instructing these companies that supplies should only be issued to relieve distress amongst Indians and Eskimo who are too old or unable through sickness, etc., to hunt their own living; and at times to others who are in distress through failure of the hunt.
The department is compelled to adopt this method of affording rdlief to these natives when in distress, but every possible care is taken in checking the accounts through missionaries or members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Polite, where available, besides which they are very carefully scrutinized in the department before payment is made, with a view to preventing abuses which might arise from the companies outfitting Indians who are capable hunters and who should not be a charge on the government. There are, therefore, inherent difficulties of management which the department has had to overcome, with a certain degree of success, but until these remote districts are more closely connected with civilization, and until the department is represented by local officers, the conditions will not he entirely satisfactory.
Owing to the remote situation of the posts, where relief is issued, the cost is naturally high, consequent upon the excessive cost of transportation.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian Education-further amount required, $35,615.45.
Alfred Speakman: I only have one criticism to offer as to this item, and in doing that I can only take the same ground that was taken by hon. members to my right in the case of estimates of another department. When the Main Estimates containing the vote for Indian education was brought down a decrease of something over $101,000 was observable. Some of us took exception to that on the ground that education was one thing that should not be neglected. In the course of the discussion that followed we were assured that provision would be made in the Supplementary Estimates. Provision has been made for a certain amount but I still notice a decrease compared with last year of a little over $66,000.


John Warwick King: These estimates relate to last year. There are still further supplementary estimates to be presented.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Board of Commerce-further amount required to provide for arrears of salary of the secretary from July 1, 1921, to March 31, 1922, $3,000.
John Warwick King: This ends the Board of Commerce.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This winds it up?


John Warwick King: Yes, it covers the funeral expenses.


William Stevens Fielding: Financially and otherwise.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Expenses of the Canadian Delegates to the Economic and Financial Conference at Genoa (Governor General's warrant, February 20, 1922), $25,000.
Thomas Alexander Crerar: Might I ask the Prime Minister the circumstances under which the Canadian Government were asked to participate in the Genoa Conference? Did we receive an invitation direct from Italy, as I understand the other countries that are sending delegates to this conference did?


John Warwick King: An invitation direct from the Italian government to the Government of Canada asking us to send delegates was received.


Arthur Meighen: When did the conference commence?


John Warwick King: My recollection is that it was about three weeks ago.


Arthur Meighen: Why is this charged against last year's expenditure?


John Warwick King: I may inform my right hon. friend that it was necessary for the delegates to leave Canada during the last fiscal year to reach Genoa in time, and that the whole amount has not been used up. I am informed that there is an unexpended balance of $8,852.62 which has lapsed and must be revoted when we come to the estimates for this year.


Arthur Meighen: When did the delegates leave Canada?


John Warwick King: I have not the exact date here, but it was some time in the last fiscal year.


Ernest Lapointe: Some time in March, because the conference opened on April 5.

Supply-Genoa Conference


Arthur Meighen: Even if they did leave Canada toward the end of the fiscal year that would not make it a legitimate charge against last year's expenditure. It would be a very small amount that could possibly be justified, if anything at all, against last year's expenditures. It should have been included in this year's expenditures in the usual way.


John Warwick King: An estimate was put in about the middle of March.


Arthur Meighen: But even so the conference is being held this year.


Mr.   CHAIRMAN@: Shall the resolution carry?


Arthur Meighen: I object to this resolution carrying. I, think the Government should be fair in this matter. It is not a very large item, but it shows a rather too ardent desire to shove this year's expenditures into last year.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


Arthur Meighen: Hon. members think it is a joke. Well, there is something of a joke about it.


John Warwick King: Not at all. It is impossible to make provision for any delegates attending the conference except by Governor General's warrant.


Arthur Meighen: Very well if there was a little money required to carry them on their way the Governor General's warrant might have covered it. The whole thing might have been covered by one warant but to charge it to last year's expenditure is not right.


John Warwick King: The delegates were each given an advance of $8,000, 1 think. That does not seem a very large amount to take over for such a purpose.


Mr. JACOBS:: Particularly for Sir
Charles Gordon.


Arthur Meighen: The hon. member
thinks he is a pretty expensive man.


Samuel William Jacobs: I am sure he needed
money before he started.


Arthur Meighen: The proper way for the Government to have acted was to have advanced such money as was essential if the delegates had to leave in March, and to advance the balance the coming year. Then the thing could have been done quite rightly without charging the entire amount to last year. That seems to be the general policy adopted-to make last year pay for this year's work.


John Warwick King: I may point out that the invitation was received on January 21 and it was at that time the Government began to make this arrangement.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I would like to ask the Prime Minister if he can give us any information as to the nature of the instructions given to these delegates as far as their work at Genoa is concerned?


John Warwick King: Generally
they were asked to participate in the conference, and to keep the Government informed as to any matters which it was thought advisable to bring to the Government's attention. I think my hon. friend had placed before him the proceedings at the Cannes Conference which outlined the work to be done at the Genoa Conference, and the duties of the delegates would pertain to the programme outlined there. The delegates were instructed to observe those matters pertaining more essentially to the European countries, but to pay particular attention to those matters relating to the Dominion and not to take final action with respect to the signing of any treaties or agreements without fully informing the Government of the nature of the proposed treaties before final action was determined upon.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: And receiving the
Government's approval.


John Warwick King: Yes, and
also to see that all agreements or treaties that were signed were made subject to the approval of Parliament.


Samuel William Jacobs: I see by the press that the conference has determined the question of the mandate of Great Britain over Palestine. Can the Prime Minister tell us if any instructions have been given our delegates with regard to their action in the matter?


John Warwick King: No, they
have an absolutely free hand in regard to Palestine.


Arthur Meighen: Can the minister tell us what has been accomplished by S'.r Charles Gordon and his co-representative on behalf of Canada in the way of economic regeneration?


John Warwick King: The Government has asked Sir Charles Gordon to give a report at the end of the proceedings, and I will have pleasure in seeing that that report is brought down in due course.

Supply-Criminal Code


Arthur Meighen: As yet they have not any information as to anything being accomplished.


John Warwick King: I do not think the world has word of anything being accomplished in the conference, our delegates are in the same position as delegates of other countries, and I presume they are doing just as well as the others.


Arthur Meighen: I observe that certain countries are in danger of losing their representatives on account of the high cost of living at Genoa. Has the Government considered that matter?


John Warwick King: Yes, I think their expenses are being paid by the Italian government, so that, as far as this Government is concerned, we have escaped.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Reprinting Criminal Code including 1920-21 amendment, $1,500.
Reprinting annual statutes, years 1907, 1908, 1909, 1910, 1912, 1913, 1914, 1915, 1919, 1920, $9,100.
Mr. GUTHRIE:: I think this is charged under the wrong heading. It is charged to legislation. The reprinting of the Criminal Code is part of the administration of justice and I think should be charged to that department, and probably "reprinting annual statutes'' should also come under that department. I do not know whether any one desires the change to be made at the present time, but I think for the future notice should be taken of it, and it should be put in its proper vote in the Department of Justice, and not under legislation.


Mr. LEMIEUX:: I think the hon. gentleman is quite right in regard to that, although this work has been done by the Law Department of the House of Commons.


John Warwick King: I did see
some explanation to the effect that this was to cover the cost of material at the Printing Bureau, and that copies of these statutes were for sale on application.


Arthur Meighen: Why is it in last year's estimates?


John Warwick King: I should think probably the 1921 amendments would be done pretty well in the early part of the year.


Samuel William Jacobs: I do not know whether I am in order in asking the Government whether it is their intention to revise the
Criminal Code. This code was introduced about 30 years ago and no revision has taken place since. It is customary to revise the ordinary statutes every ten years. I know that the matter was discussed at a recent meeting of the Council of the Canadian Bar Association, and it was thought advisable to urge upon the Government the necessity of a revision of this code, because many amendments have been introduced in the past 30 years.


Hugh Guthrie: It was revised in 1906, when all the statutes were revised.


Samuel William Jacobs: That is 16 years ago, and I think something should be done in the matter of consolidating it and bringing it into some kind of shape.


Georges Henri Boivin: I might say, for the information of the hon. member for George Etienne Cartier (Mr. Jacobs), that he can obtain a copy of the Criminal Code which is completely revised, with the exception of the amendments passed last year. The revision has 'been made from time to time by the Parliamentary Counsel, and the code in its completed and amended form can be obtained from the King's Printer.


Samuel William Jacobs: I do not mean the ordinary revision, but I refer to the question of overhauling the entire code and bringing it abreast of the times. There are very many matters which I think ought to be re-codified and re-discussed, if I may use that expression. The Criminal Code must naturally keep abreast of public opinion, and, as it is the rule in other countries to have their criminal legislation gone over from time to time, I think it would be well that we should deal with that now. There are many things in the Criminal Code that might be changed, as many things have happened during the past sixteen years. The Criminal Code is an important piece of legislation, and it should be given more attention than it has been receiving during the past sixteen years.


Hugh Guthrie: What my hon. friend has said has application to the Criminal Code, but the time has long since passed when the whole of the statutes of Canada should have been revised. There has been no revision of the statutes since 1906, when the Criminal Code was revised, consolidated and passed. The work of revision of the statutes which, I think, should take place every ten years, is long overdue, but I understand the work was well under way last autumn. Very substantial progress had been made on that work on, I believe, very
Supply-Agriculture

satisfactory financial conditions and terms. It would not take very long now to complete the work, and I sincerely hope the Government will prosecute it to a successful conclusion at the earliest posible moment.


Samuel William Jacobs: To what extent was the work done last autumn?


Hugh Guthrie: I should think three-quarters of the work had been done.


Samuel William Jacobs: By whom?


Arthur Meighen: Mr. O'Connor had done a good deal of it. I do not remember just what the arrangements were; but they provided for complete revision at a cost very substantially less than it had been done before, although ordinarily the cost would be very much greater now. I think the Government would do well to review the whole matter thoroughly, because I thought it an excellent arrangement for revision.


Samuel William Jacobs: In matters of that kind, is it not necessary to have reports made from time to time to the Government as to the advisability of changes, additions, amendments and so on in legislation? I do not mean in the matter of consolidating the statutes, but in overhauling an entire statute.


Arthur Meighen: That, of course, is another matter which hardly should be committed to the man in charge of revision.


Samuel William Jacobs: To Parliament?


Arthur Meighen: Yes. It is certainly
time we had a complete revision; the arrangement made for revision was economical, and the work was going on most expertly. I hope the Government will continue the revision and have it completed.


Georges Henri Boivin: How long was Mr. O'Connor employed on this work?


Arthur Meighen: I could not say; but Mr. O'Connor is a man, who, when he is on a task, works night and day. He is a prodigious worker when he is at work, and he is a very efficient man in that class of work.


Georges Henri Boivin: What salary was paid to him for the work?


Arthur Meighen: I could not say what was paid. I knew at one time what the arrangement was, and it can easily be ascertained.


Hon. D. D. McKENZIE (Solicitor General) :: I hardly think there was any such

understanding about the matter as that given by my right hon. friend. The leader of the Opposition says that there was an arrangement with Mr. O'Connor about this work. We all know that Mr. O'Connor is a very capable man and a very efficient worker in anything which he undertakes. But it must not be supposed that it rests with this Government to continue the arrangement, because the arrangement was cut off by the late government many months before they went out of office, and they paid Mr. O'Connor for the work he did.


Arthur Meighen: I do not think that is right.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: If there is anything to be done henceforth, what will be done must be taken up afresh and some new arrangement made.


Arthur Meighen: I really think my hon. friend is wrong because I knew nothing about that.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: My right hon. friend will find that I am not wrong.


Arthur Meighen: By what officer was this done?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The matter, as regards the settling up, was done by the Deputy Minister of Justice.


Arthur Meighen: I do not know what the Deputy Minister of Justice may have felt or thought or done about the matter; but I do not think the government, as a government, authorized the cancellation of any arrangement. If so, I knew nothing of it, and I would be surprised that such is the fact.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: My right hon. friend may rest assured that I have the correct information, because I have it from Mr. O'Connor himself. It is not second hand at all.


Arthur Meighen: I talked to him not long ago, and I did not get that impression at all.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Agriculture-for stock grazing and feeding- Governor General's warrants, December 1, 1921, and February 7, 1922, $50,000.
Mr. LUCAS:: Will the minister kindly give us some explanation of this item?


Hon. W. R. MOTHERWELL (Minister of Agriculture) :: This heading is somewhat misleading. I do not know exactly why it

Redistribution
is inserted in this way, but this is the way in which it has been carried in the estimates from year to year. It is really for what is familiarly known as the free freight which the Government of the Dominion, the western provinces and the railways have arranged to carry for the settlers in those dry areas. About $25,000 was for Alberta, $10,000 for Manitoba and $15,000 for Saskatchewan.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Labour-unemployment relief, further amount required (Governor General's warrants, July 23, 1921, and January 16, 1922), $400,000.
Arthur Meighen: How much was the warrant of January 16, 1922?


James Murdock: Each warrant was for

Item agreed to.


John Warwick King: There are
only two remaining items-401, and 426 relating to Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment. Possibly, if there is no objection, we might pass them; and if there is likely to be any discussion on them it could take place when the main estimates come up.


George Newcombe Gordon: The items have all been passed except 406, which has been withdrawn.
Progress reported.



RAILWAY ACT AMENDMENT

John Warwick King: The member for North Toronto (Mr. Church) is anxious to have Bill No. 71, to amend the Railway Act, 1919, go to the Committee on Railways, Canals and Telegraph Lines. With the consent of the House I would move that we return to Public Bills and Orders in order that the hon. member may move the second reading of the bill.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
On motion of Mr. Church, Bill No. 71 to amend the Railway Act, 1919, was read the second time and referred to the Select Standing Committee on Railways, Canals and Telegraph Lines.

John Warwick King: With the permission of the House I move to have the following names added to the Special Committee to which have been referred Bills Nos. 16 and 17: Messrs. Ryckman, Ross,
(Kingston), Hocken and McQuarrie. That makes up the twenty members of this Special Committee.
On motion of Mr. Mackenzie King, the House adjourned at 11.35 p.m.
Friday, May 12, 1922