1922-04-27

CONSOLIDATED REVENUE AND AUDIT ACT AMENDMENT

[Stage Direction]
Hon. W. S. FIELDING (Minister of Finance) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 57 to amend the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act. He said:
The chief purpose of the bill is to facilitate an earlier closing of the public accounts at the end of the fiscal year. Under the law as it stands the fiscal year ends on 31st March, but the practice has been to allow a considerable time for the closing of the accounts. That makes for delay in the completion of public documents and in one way or another affects the whole business of the House. In England the fiscal year ends at the same time, 31st March, but there is no delay as to the closing of the accounts; the accounts are taken as they stand that day. We purpose to adopt the English system, with a proviso that any accounts outstanding can be dealt with in the following year. But the great object is to close the accounts early and thus facilitate all stages of the public business to which they relate. There is another clause, as to bonds which are held by the trustees of estates of persons who have died abroad, and it deals with the method of giving absolute and proper proof of transfer. It is only a technical matter.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. Mr. FIELDING moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 58 to amend The Insurance Act, 1917. He said:
This is one of three bills which hon. members will notice on the Order Paper dealing with the Insurance Act, the Loan Companies Act, and the Trust Companies Act. They are all more or less of a technical
'w- Manion.]
character, important in their way, but I think the House will approve of the suggestion I make, that in each of these cases we deal with the bill by first and second .readings, and then refer it to the Committee on Banking and Commerce where opportunity will be afforded to all persons who so desire to make representations; and the House will not be asked to commit itself to the bills until they have been fully inquired into by that committee.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. Mr. Fielding, Bill No. 59 to amend the Loan Companies Act, 1914, was introduced and read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. Mr. Fielding, Bill No. 60 to amend the Trust Companies Act, 1914, was introduced and read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk).

Mr. MILLAR:: What financial benefit, if any, did this Government derive from overages at Fort William and Port Arthur terminal elevators in the year 1921?


Hon. Mr. ROBB:: For the crop year 1920-21 the total value of the overages to be delivered to the Government was $130,524.06. Accounts have been rendered for this amount, but no payments have yet been made.


SS. CANADIAN EXPORTER
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Was any inquiry ever held by the Dominion wreck commissioner at Victoria, British Columbia, into the loss of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine steamship Canadian Exporter?
2.	If so, what was the result of said inquiry?
3.	W'as any appeal entered to the Supreme Court of British Columbia by the captain of the ship?
4.	If so, what was the result of said appeal?
5.	Did the Department of Justice give any opinion at the request of the Marine Department as to the results of this appeal?
6.	If so, what was this opinion?
7.	What is the mode of appointing these nautical assessors for such trials?

Questions


Hon. Mr. LAPOINTE:: 1.	An investigation was held by the wreck commissioner for British Columbia at Vancouver, B.C.
2.	Master and first mate were found at fault. Certificates suspended for six and four months respectively.
3.	Yes.
4.	Finding set aside so far as it purported to affect the master.
5.	Yes.
6.	That the practice prescribed by paragraph 7 of Canadian Shipping Casualties Rules, 1921, does not leave anything necessary to be desired.
7.	Selected by the Minister of Marine and Fisheries.


EXPORT LIQUOR WAREHOUSES
Mr. MILLAR:: 1.	How many bonded liquor warehouses, operating in the province of Saskatchewan, have been licensed by the Dominion Government?
2.	Has the Saskatchewan Government, or any of its members, approached the Dominion Government with a view to having the numbers of said bonded liquor warehouses reduced or increased, or having the powers of said warehouses resfricted or altered in any way?
3.	Has this Government granted licenses to any export liquor houses now operating in the province of Saskatchewan?
4.	If so, how many?
5.	If not, are said export liquor houses carrying on trade over which the Federal Government has jurisdiction?
6.	Can the Federal Government prevent said export liquor houses carrying on interprovincial trade?
7.	Has any provincial government or any one representing any provincial government approached the Federal Government with a view to having operations of said export liquor houses restricted or altered in any way?
S.	If so, what provincial governments, and what was the nature of request or requests made ?


Hon. Mr. BUREAU:: With reference to this question, I would ask the hon. gentleman to see the officers of the department. They claim there is no such thing as an export liquor house in any of the provinces. He might see the officers so that they may have an understanding as to what he means by that term.


MOUNTED POLICE-DR. LOVERING
Mr. CLARK:: 1.	Has Dr. D. A. Taylor, acting surgeon of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police at Lethbridge, been removed from office, or requested to resign?
2.	If so, when and why?
3.	Has' Dr. J. E. Lovering of Lethbridge been appointed acting surgeon?
4.	If so, when and why, and was the appointment made by the Civil Service Commission or by the Government?
77$
5.	Was the said Dr. J. E. Lovering a Liberal candidate at Lethbridge in the last general election?
6.	If so, how many candidates were there in such election, and how many secured more votes than Dr. Lovering?
7.	Is the Government aware that Dr. Lovering, consistently and openly, opposed military service of every description from the outbreak until the termination of the late war?
S. Were applications for the position in question called for by advertisement?
9. If so, what was the nature of the advertisement; how many applications for the position were received and how many, if any, of the applications were from returned soldiers?


Hon. Mr. GRAHAM:: 1.	Dr. Taylor, eye, ear, nose and throat specialist, was retired and a general physician and surgeon appointed.
2.	22nd March, 1922.
3.	Yes.
4.	From 1st May, 1922. This is not an appointment which comes under the jurisdiction of the Civil Service Commission.
5.	Yes.
6.	No information.
7.	No.
8.	No.
9.	Answered by No. 8 .


REVENUE AND EXPENDITURE
Mr. RINFRET:: 1.	What was the population of Canada in 1877?
2.	What was the federal revenue for the fiscal year 1876-77?
3.	What was the expenditure for the same period for (a) current account, and (b) capital account?
4.	What was the total revenue of Canada for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 1922?
5.	What was the expenditure for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1922 for (a) current account, and (b) capital account?


Hon. Mr. FIELDING:: 1.	4,013,000 (estimated by Dominion Bureau of Statistics).
2.	$22,927,760.
3.	(a) Chargeable to Consolidated Fund, $23,519,301. (b) Capital account, $7,599,709.
4.	As shown by the books of the Finance Department at March 31, 1922 (not closed for the year), $371,519,454.
5.	As shown by the books of the Finance
Department at March 31, 1922 (not closed for the year): (a) Chargeable to Consolidated Fund, $324,758,377;	(b) Capital
account, $16,742,081.


MAJOR-GENERALS BURSTALL AND GW ATKIN
Mr. WARD:: 1.	On what dates were Major-General Si: Henry Burstall and Major-General Sir Wil
Questions

loughby Gwatkin retired from the Active Miliitia of Canada, or on what dates are they to be retired ?
2.	What pay and allowanes were they receiving at the dates of their retirement?
3.	Are they pensionable on retirement?
4.	If so, at what rates?


Hon. Mr. GRAHAM:: Lieutenant-General Sir Henry Burstall,


K.C.B., K.C.M.G.
[Stage Direction]
1,	3 and 4. Lieutenant-General Sir Henry Burstall was granted leave of absence, with full pay and allowances, from 20th March, 1922, to the 28th October, 1923, at which date he is to be retired with a pension of $5,993.14 per annum, under a statute providing for such cases to be increased after 16 293/365 years by $126.86 when all unpaid pension dues will have been recovered, such pension to commence from 29th October, 1923.
2.	$9,000.
Major-General Sir Willoughby Gwatkin,

[Stage Direction]
1.	Major-General Sir Willoughby Gwatkin resigned his appointment under the Air Board, with effect from 1st April, 1922. He was granted one year's leave of absence from that date, with the same remuneration as he is at present receiving.
2.	$4,196.80 per annum. This officer is in receipt of an imperial pension.
3.	and 4. Not pensionable upon retirement by the Canadian Government.

Mr. GAUVREAU:: 1.	Have contracts for the repairs of cars, ail kinds of cars, belonging and used by the Intercolonial Railway, been given to private companies instead of having these repairs done by the different Intercolonial Railway repair shops?
2.	If so, to what companies?
3.	Is it the intention of the Department of Railways to have repairs and improvements to locomotives, cars and other equipment done by the employees of the different workshops of the Canadian National Railways?
4.	What amount, if any, has been paid to private companies for repairs to the rolling stock, for the section of the Canadian National Railways from Montreal to Halifax?


Hon. Mr. KENNEDY:: 1.	Contracts for repairs to a portion of the box cars only, belonging to the Canadian National railways were given to private companies in order to help out the unemployment situation in the different parts of the country.
2.	Canadian Car & Foundry Co., Limited, Eastern Car Company, National Steel Car Corporation.

3.	The company has always, and will continue to make repairs and improvements to locomotives at their own shops. As to cars, these will be done in our own shops as far as is practicable.
4.	The amount that has been paid to date to private companies for repairs to rolling stock for the entire Canadian National railways is $389,961.93. The rolling stock belonging to the Canadian National railways is used for the benefit of the system as a whole and it is not possible to allocate charges for repairs to equipment that is being or will be used on any particular section of the line, such as Montreal to Halifax. The amount of above paid to car companies Montreal and east amounted to $371,600.83.


SALES TAX
Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: 1.	What was the value of goods Imported into Canada, on which the Sales Tax was collected, in each month of the past fiscal year, and what was the amount of such tax collected per month?
2.	What was the value of goods manufactured in Canada, on which the Sales Tax was collected, in each month of the past fiscal year, and what was the amount of such tax collected per month?


Jacques Bureau: No record is available of the value of goods imported or manufactured in Canada on which sales tax was collected.
The amount of sales tax collected monthly during the fiscal year ended March 31, 1922, on goods imported and goods manufactured in Canada was as
follows:	Sales Tax on Imports	Sales Tax on goods manufactured in Canada	April, 1921. . . .	. .$ 686,567	34	$2,328,232	39May	. . 1,062,292	37	2,123,628	34June	. . 1,362,396	96	3,114,552	71July	. . 1,364,309	51	4,051,762	31August	.. 1,492,634	59	4,367,194	10September . . . .	. . 1,415,466	54	4,050,871	93October	. . 1,485,759	22	4,589,278	65November . . . .	. . 1,598,218	16	4,019,838	64December . . . .	. . 1,242,466	24	4,749,386	31January, 1922..	. . 1,330,333	10	4,280,908	70February .. ..	. . 1,372,919	69	2,935,733	48March	. . 1,981,132	04	3,208,508	60Total . . . .	. .$16,394,495	76	$44,819,896	16


L'ORIGNAL WHARF
Mr. BINETTE:: 1.	What amount of damage was caused by the fire at the wharf at L'Orignal, in the county of Prescott, during the year 1920?
2.	What persons helped to fight the said fire, arid how much did each receive for his services?

Premier Norris
3.	What was the cost of the repairs to said wharf?


Hon. Mr. COPP:: 1.	$6,500, based on estimated cost of replacement of landing head, portion of approach and freight shed.
2.	O. Dubois, $4.90; Jos. Bertrand, $4.90; Ernest Brabant, $4.90; P. Dubois, $4.90; Charles G. Smith, $4.90; C. Dubois, $4.90; E. Landriault, $4.90; P. Brabant, $2.10.
3.	Repairs made, due to damage caused by fire, cost $3,969.13.


EXCISE TAX ON ALCOHOL,
Mr. HUBBS:: 1.	Does the Government intend to reduce the excise tax on alcohol to the retail druggists?
2.	If so, will the said tax be made the same as that charged the manufacturers at the distillery or bonded warehouse?


Hon. Mr. FIELDING:: Announcement
of such taxation changes as the Government will propose will be made in the Budget speech.


RAILWAY RATES
Hon. W. C. KENNEDY (Minister of Railways) moved:: That notwithstanding that the regulation of railway rates is a matter within the jurisdiction of the Board of Railway Commissioners, it is advisable that a Select Special Committee be appointed to make inquiry into the question of railway transportation costs, it having been disclosed by recent conferences held between the Government and the chief executives of the various railways with respect to the reduction of freight rates that the representatives of the railways deem it inadvisable immediately to reduce rates on basic commodities because of the expiration, on July 6th, 1922, of the suspension of the Crow's Nest Pass agreement;
That, in the circumstances, it is advisable to afford opportunity to all interested parties to submit their views upon the subject matter of the inquiry to the said committee with particular regard to the effect of the rates established by the Crow's Nest Pass agreement upon Canadian National railways and other lines, as well as upon agricultural development and Canadian industry generally;
And that the said committee shall have power to send for persons, papers and records, including the minutes and evidence taken before the Committees of this House in previous iSes-sions, to examine witnesses under oath, and to report from time to time.


Right Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN (Leader of the Opposition) :: Mr. Speaker, I do not propose to speak to this motion, but merely to say, I do not think the Government has any right to go on with it this afternoon. This is an important motion
-relative, at least, to anything else on the Order Paper; and, questioned last night as to what the business to-day was to be, the Prime Minister answered:
We will take up the estimates of the Department of Indian Affairs, Mines, and Public Works.
There was no intimation whatever that this motion was to be gone on with. It is unfair to the Opposition-indeed, it is unfair to the House on both sides-that it should be gone on with when it was not mentioned last night.


Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: I agree entirely with my
right hon. friend; that it was not mentioned last night was an oversight. Possibly we might have an understanding now that we proceed with it on Tuesday next.
Motion stands.


STATEMENT OF PREMIER NORRIS
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Arthur Meighen: I desire to ask
some questions of the Government as to a reported statement by Mr. Norris, Premier of Manitoba, with relation to the subject or railway rates and other matters. In the Montreal Gazette, but as well in many other papers, Mr. Norris is reported to have said at a public meeting, after a rather prolonged sojourn in Ottawa, that the Railway Commission had come to a decision on this subject of railway rates, and he virtually announced what the decision was to be. For exactness, I read very briefly his words:
Important pronouncements were made by the Premier in connection with the freight rates and the natural resources questions.
With respect to freight rates, Premier Norris announced that the fight put up by the provincial government for reduced rates had been successful, and that before the 1922 grain crop began to move a reduction would be effected which would mean an annual saving of approximately $8,000,000 to the province.
Later the quotation is as follows:
Mr. Norris, who returned from Ottawa, a few days ago, reviewed in his address to the convention the fight during the past three years to obtain lower freight rates. Arguments presented to the Railway Commissioners by counsel for the province had resulted in breaking down the railways' case for continuance of what he called present excessive rates.
I am not asking whether this is a correct report of what Mr. Norris said; if, however, the Government desire to make a statement on that, it is for them to decide. Knowing that a provincial election is near
Premier Norris

at hand, I assume for my part that this report as to whajt Mr. Norris said is substantially correct. I ask the Government, assuming it is correct: had Mr. Norris any foundation for the statement? Had he authority to announce a decision of the Railway Commission in regard to the most important question which has come before it since its inception? If so, does the Government believe in the practice of the Railway Commission of announcing its judgments through Liberal politicians?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, I confess I cannot see much point in my hon. friend's question, unless it be the implication, in the concluding portion of it, of a political significance in the press report which, probably, could not reasonably be attached to it. I am unable to say whether or not the report which appeared in the press of what Mr. Norris said is correct; Mr. Norris will have to speak for himself on that matter. There has been no official communication between the Government and Mr. Norris on the subject of railway rates.


Arthur Meighen: That is not the question. Is it correct, as Mr. Norris is reported to have said, that the Railway Commission has come to a decision? If so, is the decision as Mr. Norris says it is?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I shall have to ask the Railway Commission before I can answer my hon. friend,


Arthur Meighen: Exactly so. Does the Prime Minister wish to have us understand that, in respect to a subject regarding which the Minister of Railways has a motion on the Order Paper, for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the matter of railway rates, a decision has already been, or may have been, made known to the Prime Minister of Manitoba, although wholly unknown to the Prime Minister of Canada?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Certainly not. No anouneement as to the policy of the Government in this matter will be made until the House has had full opportunity of discussing the resolution of the Minister of Railways and of considering the matter in committee.


Arthur Meighen: That is not the question.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Arthur Meighen: I am entitled to an answer.


Mr. LAPOINTE:: No provincial campaign can be carried on here.


Arthur Meighen: Is the Prime Minister or the Government aware of any decision whatever by the Railway Commission on this question?


Ernest Lapointe: Is this an electoral campaign?
Mr. MACKENZIE (KING: There has been no decision whatever.


Arthur Meighen: I have another question, as to which there will be no difficulty at all in the Prime Minister answering "yes" or "no." Mr. Norris, having referred1 to the suspension in 1918, confirmed by statute in 1919, of the Crow's Nest Pass Agreement, and having made reference to section 325 confirming that suspension, is further reported':
While in Ottawa he and Hon. T. H. Johnston, Attorney General, have been successful, said the Premier, in securing the consent of the King Government to letting this clause lapse, and, consequently, rates would revert automatically to the 1919 level.
Is that correct or is it not?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The consent of the Government has not been obtained to anything appertaining to railway rates.


Arthur Meighen: Then if Mr. Norris said this it is wholly erroneous.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


William Stevens Fielding: Ask Mr. Norris.

The House again in Committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
Indians-Nova Scotia, $50,140.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mr. CARROLL:: I was not here when the item was agreed to and I should like to say a few words on this subject, as it is important.


The CHAIRMAN:: The item has been carried.


William F. Carroll: Then perhaps I shall have another opportunity to speak on the question.


Mr. CALDWELL:: I move that the committee return to the item. It is hardly fair to pass it without giving the members from Nova Scotia an opportunity to discuss it.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.﻿APRIL 27, 1922
Supply-Indians
William F. Carroll: I understand that there was some intention on the part of the Government of removing the Indians from their present reservation at Sydney to a location outside of that city. Those people who have the interests of the Indians at heart are very much opposed to any such removal. I do not say that they are opposed to the removal of the Indians to a proper location, but the Government has bought some land near the city ot Sydney where it is quite undesirable that the Indians should be placed. The situation is anything but a proper one for Indians.


Mr. DUFF:: Or any other Indians.


William F. Carroll: Yes, or anybody else. I understand that this purchase went through some time ago. As to this place, near Sydney, to which it is proposed to remove the Indians, people from Nova Scotia who have not seen it are at any rate familiar with the general reputation it bears. I desire to impress as strongly as possible upon the minister that, notwithstanding the fact that this location near Whitney pier has been purchased1, it would be a crying shame to put the Indians there. I have received strong recommendations from Bishop Morrison of Antigonish, and the Catholic clergy at Sydney-and I believe the minister has also had similar representations made to him-opposing the placing of the Indians on the proposed reservation. These recommendations are made by the clergy of the Catholic Church because the Indians belong to that faith, and they point out that it would be eminently undesirable and shameful to take the Indians from their reservation at Sydney and place them in the proposed location, which was purchased from a gentleman now deceased. I do not take the ground that it would not be desirable to remove the Indians at all, if there were any sentiment in the city of Sydney in support of that intention. But the minister will understand that we object to putting the Indians on a reservation which is altogether undesirable. The situation is1 such that there are some aspects of the matter which I do not wish to discuss in committee, and for the time being I would urge upon the minister the necessity of deferring action until we can have an opportunity of discussing the subject with him in the privacy of his room.


Hon. CHARLES STEWART (Argenteuil, Superintendent General of Indian Affairs) :: I am not aware of the objections my hon. friend has indicated. The land was bought from a Mr. J. A. Gillies and the proposal is to move the Indians there. However, I am perfectly willing to discuss the matter further, if, as the hon. member says, there are aspects of the situation which it is undesirable to introduce in Committee of the Whole. I could take it up in private with him.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indians-New Brunswick, $28,784.
Mr. HANSON:: There is a band of Indians located in the town of Devon in my constituency. They have been there for a number of years. The reserve is 3 small one of about five or six acres in the heart of the community, and the Indians were located there, I presume, before the place became a town. There are also in the same constituency two other reserves, one at French Village, so-called, and the other ot Oromocto. The town of Devon is an ambitious and growing community and has lately become incorporated. I happen to know that the town council have petitioned the Indian Department to have the Devon band removed to either of the other two reserves in the immediate vicinity, and the Indians themselves are agreeable. It is considered in the. interets of the growth of the town that the band should be removed. It is also considered in the interest of the Indians themselves that they should no longer be located there. If the minister will look into the files of his department I am sure he will find memorials from the council of the town of Devon asking that this proposal be carried out, not against the will of the band themselves but, I believe, with their consent. Nothing has yet been done in the matter and I have been asked by the officials of the town to bring it to the attention of the department so that the proposed change may be facilitated. The band are small in number, there being less than one hundred I am quite sure, and probably not more than fifty. Their location in Devon prevents the development of the centre of the town practically, and I am sure that if the minister obtained a report from the officials of his department on the subject he would agree with the contention which is being made by the town council itself, that it would be very much to the interest of the town if this band were moved out either to the French Village district or to the Oromocto district. I am quite satisfied that the Indians themselves have no objection to the
Supply-Indians

change-at least that is my impression after having talked the matter over with a number of them. The council have also investigated the matter and they have found that it meets with the consent of the great majority of the band. I hope, therefore, the minister will look into the matter.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Before the resolution carries I would like to ask the minister a question with regard to a matter which I brought to the attention of the department last year, in regard to the illegal cutting of lumber on the Tobique Indian reserve, in Carleton county, New Brunswick. I would like to ask whether the damage assessed has ever been collected from the parties who cut the timber, and just what the final outcome of the matter was?


Charles A. Stewart: I promise the hon. gentleman I will give careful consideration to the matter suggested by him. The officials of the department are on the way here. I have no knowledge of the question myself, and have no memorandum in regard to it, but when the officials arrive I shall be in a better position to make a statement.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indians-Ontario and Quebec, $183,115.
Arthur Meighen: We should have the information that is usually given on the voting of the estimates as to the amount spent last year with respect to each of these items. I observe that in three of the votes for Indians there is a considerable increase, commencing with this item, and that in the case of the general vote and the vote for Indian education there are two decreases. The minister has contrived to make the decreases tally to a cent with the increases so that the total amount of all the items is the same as last year. Now apparently there is to be more expenditure in administration in Ontario, in the western provinces, and British Columbia by approximately $140,000 than previously, and in order to recoup the treasury the minister is going to take it out of Indian education. I do not know whether the minister believes in education or not. I expect that some of the reduction is owing to the contraction of the "greater production" work -perhaps I am wrong in that. Anyway my point is this: The Indian Department estimates expanded largely because of the increased cost of the supplies that we have to provide the Indians with. As prices increased the estimates expanded accordingly.

I have not the figures before me but last year, I think, we managed to make a little reduction. This year we have no reduction at all. But this is the year of rapid deflation of prices-perhaps I should not have said "rapid" but of constant, and undoubtedly of certain, deflation of prices- and with even an academic intention to retrench I think the minister could have found an opportunity in these estimates to make some reduction. But he comes before Parliament with the same figure as last year, notwithstanding the fact that there is undoubtedly an opportunity to reduce because of decreased cost. There may not be opportunity in relation to the salaries -it may not be possible to reduce them at all-but there are certain production costs where there would be an opportunity, and unquestionably there could be a very substantial saving in respect to material.


Charles A. Stewart: Repairs to roads and bridges and drainage are largely responsible for the increase. I am told by the officials that there has been rapid road development both in Ontario and Quebec by the municipalities and provincial governments and in many cases repairs have been needed to roads leading through the Indian reserves otherwise the continuity of the roads would be broken up, and requests have been insistent that the department should carry out its share of these needed improvements. I have no personal knowledge of the matter but that is the information the officials give me with respect to that particular item. Practically the whole increase is made up of expenditure of that character. Where it is not particularly needed for the benefit of the Indians themselves it is required in the interest of the general public who travel across the reserve, and the money is intended to complete road work undertaken by the province and by the municipality, I expect conjointly. The matter of education is one that I want to make some explanation about, because although through desire to keep down the appropriations the cause of Indian education appears to suffer, yet actually such is not the case.
I intended to make plain to the committee that while the estimates were prepared in that way, I find, on careful examination of the situation later, that that sum will be required for educational purposes, and that there will be a general increase, and the committee will have to pass it, because it will come up in the supplementary estimates for Indian Affairs. Had I been more familiar with the estimates

Supply-Indians
this would have been provided for, but the matter did not come to my attention in time. My hon. friend has raised this point, but I intended to deal with it when we came to it, and inform the committee, so that we may not be accused of unfairness. In my estimation it should have appeared here, and we should have shown the increase in these general estimates. I shall be prepared to give an explanation of the matter. We shall require practically the same sum for educational purposes as last year.


Arthur Meighen: The Government's proclaimed policy of retrenchment has been changed into a policy of increased estimates, with explanations.


Charles A. Stewart: I scarcely think that that complexion should be placed upon the matter. I have been frank with the committee, and I have stated what I would have done if I had known the situation. I have no desire that the estimates shall be misleading to the committee. That is the last thing in my mind. If it is objectionable to have this increase in the expenditure, we will have to discuss it from that standpoint, and give the explanation as to why these items appear. I have mentioned as to the item of $9,300 in the general expenses, and the memo I have in regard to that is-
Of this increase $3,300 is required to meet increases in salaries which may be granted under the Civil Service Act and the balance, viz. $6,000 is required to replace the steamboat formerly in use by the Indian Agent at Kenora, Ont., on the lake of the Woods for many years, but now no longer serviceable and unfit for further use. As the several reserves in this agency can only be reached by water, it is necessary for the Indian Agent to be provided with a suitable boat. Tenders for the construction of a gasoline launch are being invited and the cost estimated at $5,000. A boat house will also be required at an estimated cost of $1,000.
I do not know anything about that matter, except the fact that the officials are asking for it and the necessity appears to be great.


Mr. ETHIER:: While we are dealing with this item I desire to call attention of the minister to the conditions at the Indian Reserve at Oka in the county of Two Mountains. An Indian Agent has been appointed there to attend to the business of the Indians. His name is Mr. Bertrand. He has been there for some time. There are complaints against him because he does not speak the language of the Indians. I do not know whether he can even speak English. That reserve is composed of Iroquois, Algonquins and a few Hurons. The Indians sent a deputation to Ottawa a short time ago, asking for the appointment of an agent whom they might. understand and by whom they might be understood. I presented the matter to the department, before the hon. minister took office, and nothing was done. With the permission of the House, I read a letter which I received from the chiefs of the Reserve:
Oka, Que., April 25, 1922 Mr. J. A. C. Ethier, M.P.,
Ottawa, Ont.
Dear Sir,-As chiefs of the Oka hand of Iroquois Indians, we beg to ask your assistance in bringing the claims of Mr. Joseph Perillard to the office of Indian Agent at Oka, Que., before the Civil Service Commission at Ottawa.
I thought it was proper to bring this matter before the House directly.
His qualification for the said office is unquestionable. He has served in that capacity in the past with satisfaction. His knowledge of the language of the Indians fits him for the office.
I would say that I know personally that Mr. Perillard speaks Iroquois, Huron, Algonquin and French perfectly.


Mr. JACOBS:: How can the hon. gentleman say he speaks those languages perfectly?


Joseph Arthur Calixte Éthier: I do not know that he
speaks them perfectly, but I heard him in court when he acted as translator when some of the Indians from the Iroquois were brought before the court at Ste. Scholastic que, district of Terrebonne. He acted as the official translator of the Iroquois language. He has been there ten or fifteen years as Indian Agent. He was there before 1911.
You would do us great service in pressing his claim. Mr. Bertrand is really not fit for the position, because he is utterly ignorant of the Indian language, and because he is not understood by the Indians, owing to his impediment of speech. Moreover, being engaged in business which is his first consideration, he is at a disadvantage to arbitrate difficulties between Indians for fear of antagonizing the goodwill of the people and thereby lose trade. Of course we do not wish to go into details of Mr. Bertrand's unfitness. We think we have pointed out clearly why we think Mr. Perillard's appointment would be for the good of all concerned.
We trust you will do all you can to further the interests of our people.
We remain, yours respectfully,
Chief Noah Corenthb,
Chief Peter Angus.
Representations in regard to this matter have been made to the department by the band. Their representatives have been in Ottawa. These Indians have an agent
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there who is not understood by them. I am informed that in several cases when the Indians had dealings with the department they had to go to Mr. Perillard, to have their claims translated, and to come here on their behalf. It is impossible to negotiate with the Indians satisfactorily with such a man as Mr. Bertrand. I submit to this House and to the minister that, in the interests of the Indians at Oka, the man who is living there, who has been there about fifty years, speaks their language, knows their needs, and knows them personally, should be appointed as agent there. The agent of course should be familiar with their language, and the man at present in the position is not competent to deal with their affairs in that locality; and should be replaced for the best interests of. interested parties. The request made by these Indians should, I submit, be looked into very thoroughly and be given careful consideration by the minister and his department.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indians-Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and North West Territories, $661,092.
Charles A. Stewart: There is a total increase of $74,282. One item of increase is hospitals, medical attendance and medicine.


Arthur Meighen: Why?


Charles A. Stewart: The net increase is $34,810, which is accounted for as follows: Grant to the Dynevor Hospital, increased from $1 to $1.25 per patient per day.


Arthur Meighen: Does the minister mean to say that as the cost of living goes down, the grant for medical attendance and medicine goes up?


Charles A. Stewart: Not exactly; the question is not one of the cost of living; it is a question of medical attention given to the Indians. I cannot say as to the future, but I understand that there has been a persistent request from those hospitals for increased grants for medical attention while Indians are inmates of the hospitals.


Arthur Meighen: There always will be; but the fact is that now that the cost of attention and everything else is going down, the minister is yielding to these demands and letting the cost of attendance to the Indians go up. We have always allowed so much a day, why should this time be seized to increase that allowance?


Charles A. Stewart: I presume my right hon. friend will agree that hospital expenses seem to be continually increasing, and I would personally think it rather a favourable arrangement, although I am speaking without knowledge as to the actual facts in this matter. Speaking without positive information, I think $1 per day would not pay full compensation for attendance upon an individual in the hospital, as I think my right hon. friend will agree. I understand that this hospital is maintained by private individuals. Perhaps I should not make the assertion, but I think that we have been trying to get off rather cheaply with the Indians who are wards of the Government. On a very superficial examination, I think that we have been delegating the care of the Indians very largely to private individuals and church organizations, when it seems to me that the responsibility is on the Canadian people. I am not suggesting radical increases, but I think, as I say, on a somewhat superficial examination, that we must increase some of the expenditures in connection with Indian affairs.


Arthur Meighen: Certainly we employ and co-operate with church organizations and charitable institutions, and the Indians will never be properly taken care of without that co-operation. Those are the organizations that can do the work best, as time has proved and as history has shown, and we shall have to continue to co-operate with them. The minister's present contention may be stated in just so many words, that, in this work, the late Government carried its economy to the point of penuriousness.


Charles A. Stewart: I would be inclined to sayjdiat perhaps that is true; my observations would lead me to say that. I say that in no critical mood; I agree with my right hon. friend that this work can best be done by the organizations that are already doing it; but I think, in fairness to the organizations and private individuals, we shall, perhaps, be called upon to be a little more generous in our dealings with these various organizations.


Mr. SHAW:: What provision, if any, is made for medical attention to the Indians on the Stony Indian reserve at Morley, Alberta? I may be misinformed, but I understand that no hospital provision is made at the reserve and that occasionally some medical practitioner comes from some particular place and makes a cursory exam-

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ination. I should like to be assured by the minister that proper medical examination of the Indians will be not only made, but continued.


Mr. NEILL:: I can heartily endorse the attitude taken by the minister in regard to increasing the grants to Indians. The question is not one of economy, it is one of justice. These local hospitals have been grossly underpaid for a number of years.
I have in mind a hospital in my district, but this can be duplicated in many others. We have, in my district, a hospital kept up partially by government grants, but largely by personal subscriptions and money contributed by means of dances or other entertainments. Every year, however, that hospital goes behind between $2,000 and $3,000. When we came to analyse the situation at a recent annual meeting, we found we were doing the Indian work at about half the cost. The question was raised-why should the white people put their hands into their pockets as a matter of charity in order to maintain the wards of the Indian Department? The question is not one of co-operation with churches and similar
4 p.m. institutions. These Indians are certified by the local doctor to require medical treatment; they are put into the hospital, and hitherto the hospital has been drawing $1 a day per patient while the cost in our hospital has been somewhere around $3 a day. In addition, of course, we had the Government grant to help out; but we sustained a heavy loss on every Indian we treated. This is unfair, uncalled for, and I am heartily glad that the minister has taken the stand which he has to-day.


Charles A. Stewart: The medical officer on the Stony reserve is Dr. A. W. Park at a salary of $600.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: Does he live on the reserve?


Charles A. Stewart: I am told that his home is at Cochrane, Alberta.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: What items are
covered by the vote of $335,805 for general expenses? This seems to be a very large item for miscellaneous expenses, if that is what it means, and there is an increase of $41,760 over last year for the same purpose. The New Brunswick appropriation is passed, I notice that the item for miscellaneous and unforseen expenses in that province is only $850.


Charles A. Stewart: I will give the Runs that make up this sum.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I want just a general idea of what it covers.


Charles A. Stewart: I think
I can give that better by reading the items it covers. The increase is accounted for as follows: $2,760 provided for increases in salaries which will be granted under the Civil Service Act for the fiscal year; $39,000 to meet additional expenditures to carry out the terms of Treaty No. 11, negotiated in 1921 with the Indians of the Great Slave lake and Mackenzie river district, as explained in the special items of this estimate. This sum was voted for the last fiscal year, 1921-22, under the general vote, but is transferred now to the vote, "Northwest Territories," where it properly belongs. It is therefore not an increase in the appropriation asked for 1922-23 over that for 1921-22, there being a corresponding reduction made in the general vote. The $39,000 is a transfer from the general vote to this special vote.


Mr. COOTE:: I should like to bring before the committee the condition of affairs which, I believe, exists on the Blood reserve in Alberta. When I was on the reserve this winter I was interviewed by about twenty Indians, who presented me with a lengthy memorandum setting forth a list of grievances which they have against the Government. In addition to those grievances, they personally stated that they had a lot of complaints against the treatment which they were receiving, and that they had nobody to speak for them; that the means of communication between them and the department at Ottawa seemed to be closed; that since 1918, when the Indian office was established at Regina, they seem to be able to get no relief from what they consider to be ill treatment. At their request I promised to take the matter up with the Government. I have brought it to the attention of the Minister of Indian Affairs, and I believe he will give it very sympathetic consideration. At the same time to satisfy some of the friends of the Indians in the vicinity of the Blood reserve I want to bring the matter before the members of this committee.
The Indians complained particularly that the department had broken faith with them. I think that is a very serious complaint, as the Indian always deals by word of mouth, not by written agreement, and therefore we should be very careful to do everything to maintain his belief that the word of the Government may be relied

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upon implicitly. They claimed that faith was deliberately broken with them in connection with a lease of part of their reserve while the "greater production" campaign was on, and that whereas they were promised $24 per head in consideration of this lease, they got a cash payment of only $6 each; and they claim that the balance is due them. That is only one of the grievances referred to in the memorandum, although possibly it is one of the most serious. I am not going to weary the committee by recounting all the grievances covered hy the memorandum, but I want to bring to the attention of hon. members and also of the minister, in case I do not have an opportunity to do so later, the complaint of individual Indians that they are often in want of food and have to go hungry. One Indian-who, by the way, is well educated and speaks perfect English -stated to me that no matter how many children he might have-and he had a family of eight-he would only be allowed to draw from the rations house ten pounds of meat per week. Now, that might seem enough for a white man and his family, but we must remember that Indians live largely on meat and bread. The same Indian informed me that any member of the tribe with a small family is allowed only five pounds of meat per week. I was informed that as a result of under-feeding many of the Indians are sick, particularly during the winter months, and that the more-than-usual amount of sickness among them is to be attributed to this cause. I was also informed that whereas they used to have a resident doctor on the reserve, all the medical attendance they get now is from the doctor in the neighbouring town when he makes periodical visits to the hospitals. I am speaking simply from notes which I took when I was on the reserve and these Indians made their representations to me.
It would seem to me that there must be mismanagement of this reserve. The area of the reserve, I am informed, is 354,086 acres. The last returns available show 1,161 Indians on this vast territory, or a total of over three hundred acres for every man, woman and child. It would appear therefore that if any ordinary business management were applied to the affairs of that reserve, sufficient would be produced to keep the Indians in decent comfort.
Before I sit down I wish to urge upon the committee and upon the minister the importance of not in any way cutting down the grants for the education of the Indian.

I was greatly impressed with the beneficial results noticeable on that reserve in the improved homes of those Indians who had been educated in the industrial schools, they having very comfortable homes compared with those of the older Indians. I was told by some of the best friends of the Indians in the district that the hope of the Indian lay in education, that if all our Indian boys could receive a proper education in what we have called in the past industrial schools, the problem of the Indian would, so far as the Blood reserve is concerned, be taken off our hands within the next twenty years, for they would become self-supporting. Therefore I ask the committee, whatever estimates be pared down, that they should not in any way endeavour to reduce the estimates for the education of the Indian.


Mr. GOOD:: I desire to call the attention of the minister and, incidentally, of the members of this committee, to a little pamphlet written by Doctor Peter H. Bryce and published in the city recently. I got a copy through the mails, and I presume that the pamphlet was distributed among all hon. members. It is entitled, "A National Crime," and contains rather serious charges of maladministration in the Department of Indian Affairs with respect to medical attention to Indians. I have not the pamphlet with me at the moment, but I read it with a great deal of interest, and if the facts are anywhere near as they are stated, then I think the minister ought to look into the matter without delay. As I say, I only wish to draw the attention of the minister and of the committee to the pamphlet; I do not wish to take up any time discussing the charges it contains, because the minister can peruse them for himself.
There is another matter which I think should be mentioned. In one of the Indian reserves in my constituency there has developed a situation of a rather serious character about which I have been in consultation privately with the minister. I do not know whether it would be worth while for either of us to make any explanation; I shall leave it to his judgment. But as there is one question at least of very general interest involved, I thought perhaps the committee would like to have a statement from the minister, and undoubtedly it would come better from him than from me. I do wish to emphasize the necessity of looking into the charges made in this little pamphlet.

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Charles A. Stewart: I have had a considerable amount of correspondence in connection with matters under dispute on the Blood Indian reserve. It would appear that the department was unfortunate in one or two of the agents appointed, but I am informed that the recent appointment of an agent will tend to remedy many of the complaints made by the Indians on this reserve.


Arthur Meighen: My hon. friend refers to appointments made, when?


Charles A. Stewart: Last fall, I understand.


Arthur Meighen: Before that, I think.


Charles A. Stewart: I may be giving a wrong impression, but my understanding was that the difficulty was owing largely to the action of the local agent.


Arthur Meighen: That is, an agent some time ago.


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.
However, I intend to make it my business this year, as soon as the session is over, to visit as many of the Indian reserves as I can, possibly a few in each province. I confess that outside of a knowledge of the Indians of the northern portion of Alberta, their educational and hospital institutions, I know very little about Indian affairs generally; and one can get a very much better idea of the conditions if he visits the reserves. He may then form an opinion as to the best method of dealing with this question.
The matter raised by the hon. member for Brant (Mr. Good), is in connection with difficulty on the Six Nations reserve. This difficulty, which is one of long standing, may be attributed primarily to the fact that a great many members of the band do not consider themselves wards of the Government, but, rather, allies of Great Britain. There was also some difficulty about military service during the war; a large proportion of the band were opposed to any members of the band enlisting, and that opposition they expressed most vigorously. I would not have time to go into all the details of the difficulties existing in connection with this band; but out of the incident of the war appears to have arisen a state of affairs that is most unpleasant. During last season the reserve was visited by a hail-storm; conditions of drought prevailed, and there was a crop shortage. Many Indians on the
reserve who had been obtaining employment at fairly remunerative wages found themselves out of work last winter, and a considerable amount of distress was occasioned. That, perhaps, along with other matters in dispute, led the council to make a demand on the government for a cash distribution of the capital funds of the band to the extent of $20 per head. But this we found it impossible to do. The accumulated band funds are held in trust for the general purposes of the band; under the Indian Act they may be distributed for various purposes, but this is not one of the purposes. If any such distribution were made, therefore, the authority of Parliament would have to be obtained. In addition, owing to the unfortunate circumstances of last year, the Indians found themselves in many cases in need of seed. The government offered to meet all cases of distress that were approved by the agent in charge-and there have been no complaints, so far as the representations of the council are concerned, with respect to the agent in charge. The department agreed to provide the necessary seed and to ask for an appropriation from Parliament for the purpose of doing so. This did not meet with the approval of the council; indeed, it was refused, and a peremptory demand made that consideration be given to their request for the distribution of $20 per head. We have not deemed it wise to accede to that demand; we have stood by our offer to give relief where relief was needed and to issue seed to those who found it necessary to obtain it from the department.
There is another difficulty that has now become very serious. Of the soldiers, six hundred in number, who enlisted from the Six Nation Indians, about 80 applied to the Soldier Settlement Board to be placed upon the land under the provisions of the Soldier Settlement Act. In one case an Indian named Hill obtained an allotment. Bear in mind that if there is any transaction in Indian lands it is with regard to improvements only; the ownership of the land is in the band itself, not in any particular individual. This man Hill was not prepared to go upon the land whet he had met the requirements of the board and the money had been granted to him A relative of his was in the meantime tc take possession and hold the land until he was ready to go upon it. In all other cases, so far as I am aware, the men entered immediately into possession and pro-
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ceeded to operate the lands allocated to them. But the council, or a portion of it at least, is opposed to the use of any of the Indian lands for the purposes of soldier settlement, and to the soldiers operating on the reserves under the provisions of the Soldier Settlement Act. I am not aware of the reasons for this, except that they feel that some of their rights are being jeopardized. In this particular case they have opposed by force any attempts on the part of Hill to take possession.


Arthur Meighen: In referring to the
council, does the minister mean the council of the band?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes. In
this case it is hereditary; it is not elective. The difficulty has come to the point where legal action has been taken and Hill's ownership has been sustained in the court. But still the band have resisted. The sheriff a few days ago undertook to oust the incumbent and place Hill upon the land, but he was resisted by force; and matters have come to such a pass now that he asks for assistance to enable him to carry out his duties in this connection. Throughout the whole affair I have endeavoured to avoid difficulties. We have had representatives of the council here on two occasions. The member for Brantford (Mr. Raymond) and the member for Brant (Mr. Good) met the members of the Council, I believe, or at least the chiefs of the band, to discuss the matter, but they did not seem willing to permit the operation of the Soldiers' Settlement Act on the reserve their intention being apparently, to resist this, if need be, by force. It is very difficult in a case of this kind to avoid what may develop into a serious situation, but personally I feel that we have a duty to stand behind the men who were willing, in the face of serious danger, to don the khaki and fight for us; it is our business as a department and a government to stand behind them. But we must also endeavour as far as possible to avoid any serious difficulty with the wards of the nation. At the moment the matter is in the hands of the sheriff of the county and the Attorney General of the province of Ontario. I do not know that I can say anything more on the matter. There are one or two things that might be said in regard to the desirability, if it were possible, of changing the system of the election of the council. But, again, these Indians stand very strongly upon their rights, and a conciliatory

method would be the best if it could be effected. At any rate it should be tried to the limit before drastic steps are taken. I do think, however, that we must protect the men who were loyal enough, and who had our interests sufficiently at heart, to get out and fight for their country.


Mr. LEWIS:: Just two questions: Does
this Government recognize the council of which the minister has been speaking? And does the council claim the improvements made on the land by the Soldier Settlement Board, or just the land?


Charles A. Stewart: They
have not made any claim. They are resisting the method that is being pursued in dealing with the lands in their reserves. It is the land in every case that they are .claiming.


Arthur John Lewis: But there are improvements?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


William Charles Good: Perhaps I might supplement the statement of the minister by describing briefly the interview which my hon. friend (Mr. Raymond) and I had with a number of the chiefs the other day. The chairman of the council stood definitely and firmly by this position, that they were not subject to Canadian laws within the territory of their reserve. He said that the Canadian people, acting through the Canadian Government, were invaders of their rights as an independent people and an ally of the British Crown. That is perhaps a rather unique position, but they have taken it very definitely and it lies behind the difficulty which the minister has referred to.


Arthur Meighen: I do not wish to enter into a discussion of the particular matter concerning the Six Nations reserve, save to make this comment. I think the minister is not quite correct in saying that the Soldier Settlement Board operates the Indian reserves, treating the Indian returned soldier just as they have power to treat the white returned soldier. My recollection is that the Deputy Superintendent General of Indian Affairs was given the powers of the Soldier Settlement Board in respect of the Indian returned men, and he is enabled to operate the Act in regard to them. But the Soldier Settlement Board, as such, does not interpose itself at all. That, I am quite certain, is right, because the Soldier Settlement Board could not act, in view of the fact that the Indian, whether

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a returned man or not, is not subject to the law, in that he is not liable to have contracts enforced against him. Consequently it is merely the Soldier Settlement provi sions adapted to the Indians, which the Deputy Superintendent General of Indian Affairs supervises.
I do, however, want to say something as regards the general question of complaints from reserves. As superintendent general for something over three years, I came in contact with them frequently, and I have not the least doubt that the present superintendent general will have the same experience as I had. I do not want what I say to have any special application to the Blood reserve, or, indeed, to the Six Nations or any other reserve, although it has just as much application to these two as to any others. The Indian population, perhaps more than any other body of people, are easily susceptible to imposition at the hands of the cleverer white, and nowhere do the agitator and the charlatan reap a readier harvest than among the Indian people. I have gone into the complaint raised by the member for Macleod (Mr. -Coote), and I have had some acquaintance, too, with the situation in the Six Nations, the complaint being very much in the nature of that brought up this afternoon. In respect of this charge from the Blood reserve, I want to say frankly that after the most careful investigation I was able to make, after all sides were afforded an opportunity to present their evidence, the case of the departmental officials was so overwhelming, and the complete crushing of the complainant's case was so marked, that there was no doubt left in my mind at all that it was mainly the result of agitation-[DOT]


Charles A. Stewart: Did you have Mr. Wilson's letter before you?
Mr. MEIGHEN-agitation, I am afraid I must say, on the part of those who seek to gain something for themselves. The British Columbia Indians have been subject to this perhaps more than any other body of Indians, and although the matter has been up year after year for I do not know how many years, I do not think there is any one who would say that it has not been simply a matter of chicanery, an attempt to profit by and live upon agitation, in the case of these British Columbia Indians. Now, in respect of our dealings with these people, no one is more decided than I am that those dealings must be characterized by humanity, by stern fidelity to
all our treaties, by justice always-as everything we do must be just-but, at the same time, by firmness. The minister in the discharge of his duties will be entitled to the co-operation, in this regard, of the members who come from the districts inhabited by Indians, and I for one propose to give him support in a policy of firmness in this matter. I purpose to support him against the operations of people who want to profit by agitation and stir up unrest among the Indians, because I came out of the department profoundly convinced that that is the attitude of mind that will be most useful and, indeed, most just on the part of my successor.


Mr. FORKE:: I endorse the remarks of the leader of the Opposition (Mr. Meighen). I have lived for a great many years in very close proximity to a band of Indians, and I appreciate their child-like qualities. In many respects they are very easily imposed upon. I hope, Mr. Chairman, you will not think it egotistical on my part if I say that one of the things that gives me the greatest pride is that the Indians believe what I say, and I am just as pleased with that endorsement as I could be with a certificate of character from white people anywhere. I am sorry to say that the Indians where I live, that is the Oak Lake Indians, are almost always in a chronic state of pauperism. I do not think they are treaty Indians. They are not in receipt of any fixed income of any kind from the Dominion Government but are largely dependent on their own efforts for a livelihood. I cannot but think, Mr. Chairman, that the Indian question is one of the tragedies of our modern civilization, or perhaps it would be better to say of the progress of development in a new country, and I would like to impress upon the minister at this particular time the desirability of a most careful examination into all the conditions on our Indian reserves. I know individually the Indians in my own locality, I am thoroughly familiar with their circumstances, and my heart has bled for them many a time. We sometimes blame the Indian for the condition in which he finds himself. We say that he is not as persistent as he might be, and that he does not adapt himself to our modern way of living; but where in all history, have you ever found it possible for a people who have been living in a state of semi-barbarism to adapt themselves to civilization and all its methods of living just in one generation? We must treat these people with sympathy and consideration and give them

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all the support and help that we possibly can. Unfortunately it is but too true that white people, to a very large extent, are blameable for a great many of the vices to which the Indians are addicted at the present time. When I knew the Indians on the Oak Lake or Pipestone reserve forty years ago they were a truthful people, you would trust them everywhere. To-day I am sorry to say, you cannot repose the same confidence in them, and I attribute that to their coming into contact with the white population dwelling all around them. That is a serious charge to make, but it is true. I hope the minister will give this class of our population his most serious attention and consideration.


Mr. GARLAND (Bow River) :: What has been done with regard to the "greater production" scheme? Is it to be continued, and if so under what head shall we find the appropriation for it?


Arthur Meighen: It does not need any appropriation.


George Gibson Coote: While the minister is looking for an answer to that question I am prompted by the remarks of the hon. member for Brandon (Mr. Forke) to say that I live a distance of sixty-five miles from the Blood reserve. The information that came to me emanated from a great many white people residing in the vicinity of that reserve, and I felt it my duty to bring the matter up as the Indians themselves are asking for an impartial investigation. I was very pleased to hear the minister say that he hopes to visit these reserves. If he will do that I am sure it will give great pleasure to the people who have been agitating in this matter. I would also like to say with respect to what my hon. friend from Brandon has said, that in talking with a former missionary on the Blood reserve he stated that the treatment which the Indians had received not only from their agents but from some white people living in the vicinity, was enough to make Bolshevists out of them. Under all the circumstances I hope that an impartial investigation will be held into the conditions which exist on that reserve with a view to seeing if the matter cannot be cleared up to the entire satisfaction of all concerned.


Charles A. Stewart: There is no vote for the "greater production" programme but there is a very substantial amount of cash on hand. Perhaps it would be interesting to the committee to know something about the scheme and the method adopted for closing it up. I may say that
[Mr. Forke. 1
Mr. Graham has just left for the West and it is our desire that as soon as possible the area under cultivation under this scheme, and managed by Mr. Graham for the Government, shall either be turned over to the Indians to cultivate, or the work closed out in a manner that will not involve any loss to the department. On 20th February Mr. Graham showed a cash balance of $328,810.17. To this balance should be added cash, amounting to $32,055.41, which was realized for the cultivation of a farm which was handed over to the Black-feet Indians to be paid for out of the Band's funds, making a total of $360,865. It is proposed to return at once to the department $250,000 from this amount, which will leave a cash balance of $110,066.21 in the hands of Mr. Graham to carry on his operations this year. That is, he turned over $250,000 of the original fund and retains $110,066.21 for the closing-out process. I may say that last year a very considerable proportion of this land was turned over to the young students who graduated from the schools, and that is the method by which we hope to dispose of the balance of the land under cultivation. It is not the intention of the department to continue the cultivation of this land purely as a departmental enterprise any longer than the time required to dispose of it. As soon as it can be turned over we shall, with just that speed, close out the greater production enterprise.


Edward Joseph Garland: Can the minister inform the committee what the net profit was per acre each year the scheme was in operation, for example at the Blackfeet reserve?


Charles A. Stewart: I do not know that the department have that information. I presume it could be secured but it will take some considerable time. I would be very glad to prepare the information if it could be had by areas.


Mr. CAMPBELL:: I would draw the
attention of the minister to the charges made by Dr. Bryce who was from 1904 until very recently Chief Medical Officer for the Indian Department. The charges made by Dr. Bryce against officers of the department, I think, are entitled to very serious consideration. Let me read two or three extracts from Dr. Bryce's report: The first reads:
By Order in Council dated January 22nd, 1904, the writer was appointed Medical Inspector to the Department of Interior and of Indian

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Affairs, and was entrusted with the health interests of the Indians of Canada.
Dr. Bryce goes on to say of himself:
For each year up to 1914 he wrote an annual report on the health of the Indians, published in the departmental report and on instruction from the minister made in 1907 a special investigation of thirty-five Indian schools in the three prairie provinces.
Dr. Bryce continues:
The annual medical reports from year to year made reference to the unsatisfactory health of the pupils, while different local medical officers urged greater action in view of the results of their experience from year to year.
Dr. Bryce, in conjunction with Dr. J. D. Lafferty examined the 243 children of eight schools in Alberta with the following results:
(a) Tuberculosis was present equally in children at every age; (b) In no instance was a Child awaiting admission to school found free from tuberculosis; hence it was plain that infection was got in the home primarily; (c) The disease showed an excessive mortality in the pupils between five and ten years of age; (d) The 10,000 children of school age demanded the same attention as the thousand children coming up each year and entering the schools annually.
Recommendations, made in tihls report, on much the same lines as those made in the report of 1907, followed the examination of the 243 children; but owing to the active opposition of Mr. D. C. Scott, and his advice to the then Deputy Minister, no action was taken by the Department to give effect to the recommendations made.
I would commend this report to the very serious consideration of the minister. I do not intend to discuss the matter at present but I shall bring it up at a future time, and I hope the minister will then be able to give some further information with respect to it.


Charles A. Stewart: I have
not read the report mentioned by my hon. friend so that I cannot express any opinion upon it.
With respect to the request of my hon. friend from Bow River (Mr. Garland), I have the report here, but I know perfectly well, before giving it to him, that it is not the kind of statement that he is desirous of getting. It takes into account all costs in connection with operation and breaking land, and it shows a very large amount, of course, for which the department could get no remuneration, inasmuch as it is all turned over to the Indians. That would have to be deducted before I could give him the report. However I will be glad to get that information for him.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: The minister gave us the items covering $41,760 in the general

expenses of this item, but there is still $294,045, general expenses, not accounted for by the items he gave us, and in this connection I would like to deal on general principles with this matter of general and miscellaneous expenses appearing in every item brought down by every minister. Not wishing to criticize this more than any of the other departments. I find in this whole vote there is an item of $487,160 that is attributed to the different provinces as general expenses and miscellaneous expenditure, not itemized at all. Then we find a separate vote, item 281, $157,500, for general expenses, making a total of over $600,000. On general principles I think there is too much money voted as general expenses or miscellaneous expenses, without explanation of what it is for. The tendency seems to be growing, as I observe these items are larger than last year. I think we criticized these votes for general expenses last year, and I think we should warn, not only the minister for Indian Affairs, but the others as well, that in the future we will expect more of an itemized account when votes are asked for expenditure for purposes of government. I think it is no more than right that the House should have the information.


Charles A. Stewart: I confess I did not follow my hon. friend.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I was referring to the matter of items in each of these votes for each province for Indian affairs under general or miscellaneous expenses, without any items, amounting in a great many cases to more than half the vote. If it were a small vote it would not be so bad, although the principle is the same. I was not criticising the estimates of this department any more than any other department, but I think there is too great a tendency with the ministers to ask for a vote in the shape of a blank cheque, without giving the items the expenditure is required for. I find in the part of the item for the different provincial votes for Indians an amount of $487,160. Then there is a separate vote for general expenses of $157,500.


Charles A. Stewart: For the Northwest?


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: No, in the general vote, No. 281.


Charles A. Stewart: We are dealing at the moment with the vote for the territories; $85,000.

S upply-Indians


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I know that, hut I was just summing up the amount of the total vote, put in as general expenses. It amounts to $644,660.


Charles A. Stewart: The hon. gentleman is objecting to the total miscellaneous vote for the Indian Department, although it is allocated to various provinces and the amounts given for the various provinces.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Yes.


Charles A. Stewart: I do not know that I can meet that objection unless we bring down a statement for the various services for which they are used, but in the aggregate it looks like a large amount. Taken by provinces it is not very serious. For example the votes for the provinces are:	Manitoba, $14,827; Saskatchewan,
$13,158; Alberta, $9,868. This, with the $47,000, makes a total of $85,000.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Where do you get the $47,000? If this were a small item it would not look so bad.


Charles A. Stewart: I will
give the allocation of the whole $335,000. The salaries amount to $152,990.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Are salaries included in this?


Charles A. Stewart: Oh, yes. I will give the amounts making up the $335,825. They are as follows:
Salaries	$152,990
Employees	rations	 34,900
Miscellaneous	 85,023
Fuel, feed	and	light	 18,181
Livestock	 2,050
Equipment	 10,719
Buildings	 31,924


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I do not want to be misunderstood. I am not objecting to the vote on the ground that possibly it is not needed, but I say that these items should be given in the vote. For instance, in the other provinces the items for salaries are given, and there is no item in this as salaries. Apparently the minister has the details.


Charles A. Stewart: The provinces are all alike in that respect. The salaries are not given, except lumped as they are here. If any hon. gentleman desires to know what any particular agent is getting in the way of salary, I can give him the information.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: In the Nova Scotia vote we find $6,240 for salaries, in New

Brunswick, $3,184, and in Prince Edward Island $1,160. In British Columbia there is an item of $72,730. The salaries are not itemized in this vote.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indians-Yukon, $15,000.
Arthur Meighen: We are carrying items at a speed just a little too fast for the celerity of my mind. The previous item is for $38,060 "miscellaneous and unforeseen", as against $19,560 last year, virtually a doubling of the estimates for the unforeseen. How can the minister know what is going to be unforeseen so accurately as that? Last year there was no increase at all.


Charles A. Stewart: Under
the heading of "Office, miscellaneous and unforeseen" $19,560 was appropriated in 1921-22. It is anticipated that the same amount will be re-5 p.m. quired to meet expenses in 192223, and that, in addition, it will be necessary to provide $18,500 for expenditure as follows:
To provide for irrigation work on Kamloops Reserve, No. 1, which is
in the "dry belt"	$12,000-
To provide for payment of taxes which have been levied in the West Nicomen dyking district for dyking on the Su-mas Indian Reserves, Nos. 4 and 10, on Nicomen Island, in the New Westminster agency, which work became necessary under the British Columbia dyking regulations. This year the interest and sinking fund
charges amounted to	$ 312
. The upkeep to	 150
The maintenance charge was. 1,400

 1,862
Probably the maintenance charge will be less next year. The total cost,
therefore,	is	estimated	at	 1,500
To provide for alterations to Babine
Agency	House	at	Hazelton	 3,000-
To supplement band funds in defraying cost of dam at outlet of Scowkin creek and to irrigate approximately 500 acres of land south of the Thompson river, Kamloops agency, Department of Interior in charge of work	 2,000


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indians-general, $157,500.
Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Along the line of my recent criticism, I should like to know what these general expenses are.


Arthur Meighen: I see the decrease here is really not a decrease at all. The $39,000 is simply taken out of this appropriation and transferred to the appropriation for the Northwest Territories.

Supply-Indians


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, for the payment of Treaty No|. 11, which appeared in the Estimates, but it is a transfer only.


Arthur Meighen: It is an obligation that we have to pay, and it comes under the Northwest Territories appropriation instead of under this, so that, in the end, the estimates for Indian Affairs will be increased very substantially, by something like $140,000.


Charles A. Stewart: We have covered practically all of. the decreases inasmuch as we shall have to come down with supplementaries covering the decrease in the educational item.


Arthur Meighen: There is no decrease in this at all, and there is no decrease in education; at least, what decrease there is, is going to be made up in the supplementaries?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes. Item agreed to.
Indian Education, $1,226,643.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Last Mountain) :: Does this item cover anything outside of salaries and such like in connection with education?


Charles A. Stewart: The appropriation for the fiscal year, 1922-23 is divided as follows:
Per capita grants for residential schools:-
Ontario	$119,375
Manitoba	 118,305
Saskatchewan	 142,180
Alberta & N.W.T	 145,225
British Columbia		173,800
Yukon	 14,300

Bonus for residential schools at $20
per capita	  100,000
Salaries for day school teachers and matrons:
Prince Edward Island.. .. $	850
Nova Scotia	 5,250
New Brunswick	 5,750
Quebec		20,265
Ontario	 22,600
Manitoba	 30,470
Saskatchewan	 20,630
Alberta & N.W.T	 6,810
British Columbia	 41,025
Yukon	 5,520

	159,170
Inspection of schools	 9,000
Tuition and assistance to graduates.	4,000
Fuel, rental, janitors, truant	officers	27,000
Transportation of pupils	 3,000
Class-room equipment, texts, stationery, desks	 16,000
Repairs, alterations and day school
buildings	 195,288
Total	$1,226,643
m	* i>


Joseph Tweed Shaw: I confess that it is with some apprehension that I receive the reason of the minister for the reduction in this estimate for educational purposes. I am not blaming the minister, but to my mind it would seem to be a reflection on the officials of his department, because if there is one thing we must be particularly careful about it is to see that our treaty obligations with respect to education are fully and completely discharged. I say that, Mr. Chairman, also in the light of the fact that in answer to a question which I addressed to the minister with regard to the Stony reserve school namely: How many Indian children are there at the present time of school age on the Stony reserve at Morley, Alberta?-I was informed: "Approximately, 110." The information which I have been given indicates that there are probably 140 children of school age on that reserve, so I take it that " approximately " has perhaps a very wide interpretation in the department. The second question and answer were:
Q. What provision, if any, has been made for the education of such Indian children?
A. No provision since boarding school was closed in 1908 and the last day school closed in 1919.
Now, I suggest that that is a most tragic state of affairs, and I am delighted to know that the minister proposes to visit some of these Indian reserves during the coming year. If he will take the trouble-and I am sure he will-to visit the Stony Indian reserve, he will find the request for educational facilities for the children in that particular reserve comes from the Indians themselves. That band of Indians do realize, so I am informed-at least, a number of them-the necessity for educating their children and they are anxious that acommo-dation should be provided.
I should like the minister to give us his general idea as to how he proposes to carry on the education of the Indian children, and to co-ordinate with that education the taking care of their health, the gravity of which matter, I am sure, he fully appreciates. I do not know the policy of the former government, but I understand that in relation to the province of Alberta at least the intention is to erect a school at Edmonton and to transport the Stony reserve and other Indian children from points over two hundred miles distant and keep them there at school, transporting them back to their parents, I presume, at the end of the school year. I am frank to say, Mr. Chairman, that I have not very much sympathy with that method of edu-
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cation, especially where you find at least 120 children on the reserve of school age whose parents are anxious to secure school facilities. I should like the minister to give us some indication of the policy of his department in connection with educational affairs, and to advise us if he has any intention of co-ordinating his health with his educational activities.


Charles A. Stewart: I must confess that my knowledge of the particular reserve my hon. friend has mentioned is rather limited. From what I have observed of the system followed in the northern portions of Alberta, I would be in favour of recommending its continuance. There the children are gathered into schools, largely under the supervision of various religious bodies, and are provided not only with a good, sound general education, but are given religious instruction as well, which I think is decidedly helpful to them. My hon. friend has questioned the wisdom of that policy being carried out in all cases. The Indians on the Morley reserve may be of a different type, but from what I have observed of Indians generally, unless they are settled down at farming very few of them continue to reside in any particular spot during the entire summer season. Therefore the children can be better educated in schools of the character I have mentioned than in rural public schools such as we have throughout Western Canada. There may be cases where the rural public school system could be carried out, but I am inclined to think that the other method would be more successful. When the Supplementary Estimates are brought down, the vote for education will come up for discussion. A great many problems enter into the education of the Indian child, and it seems to me that a more lasting impression-I may be wrong about this-can be created in the mind of the individual child in the church boarding school, where the child is living continuously over a stated period, than when it is attending intermittently a local school, as undoubtedly would be the case in connection with any school of the character of our public schools. My own opinion at the moment is that the education of the Indian child can be managed much more successfully at such a boarding school.
Dealing with the whole question, I find this difficulty-that the religious organizations are pressing very strongly for increased facilities in the way of buildings

for educational purposes. There is no doubt that I could ask the committee for a very large sum of money to be spent in this way. But I am going to ask for a considerable vote to repair some of the buildings that the clergymen in charge claim are almost useless, in order to avoid a heavy capital outlay all at once, and year by year, and to endeavour to meet the necessities of the case by expenditure of this character in the construction of new buildings. The whole matter is bound up between the department and the religious organizations that have undertaken this work. I think a great deal of credit is due to those religious organizations for what they have done and the sacrifices that many of them have made, particularly in the outlying portions of Canada, in connection with their work among the Indians.
With respect to the health of the Indians, the hon. gentleman has introduced another very difficult problem. I know the difficulty of handling the situation in our own province among the white population, and it is much more difficult to handle among our Indian population. Perhaps tuberculosis is the most serious menace we have to face to-day. I am not prepared on this occasion to make any statement with respect to what ought to be done, or what would be the policy of the Government, except to say that I am prepared to give the matter the most careful consideration, with a view to adopting that method which appears likely to produce the best results, and to stop, as far as is within the power of the Government, the ravages of this disease among our Indian population.


John Millar: I wish to ask if the grants to the different educational institutions carried on by the various religious bodies are included in this item of $1,226,000. I would like to say a word in regard1 to educating the Indians in those institutions carried on by religious organizations. I have not had much opportunity of comparing the results of the two methods; I have seen the results on one side only. I live not far from an institution carried on by one of the religious bodies, and I must say that the results there are very satisfactory-so much so indeed, that it is my belief that the method suggested by the minister is preferable to that advocated by the hon. member for West Calgary (Mr. Shaw).

Supply-Indians


Arthur Meighen: To what school does the hon. member refer?


John Millar: Fort Qu'Appelle.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: I am not suggesting that the policy followed by the department was not a correct one. I am suggesting that in this particular case, where there are 140 children available, that policy might be followed-not at Edmonton, however, but on the reserve itself.


John Millar: In the school to which I refer there are nearly 200 pupils, and they are making remarkable progress. The improvement in their manners is noticeable, and I can understand that their instruction by efficient teachers would have much to do with preventing the spread of tuberculosis. One of the greatest difficulties is to get the Indian to realize the danger of spreading the disease. With the children in an institution of this kind, the necessity of cleanliness will become apparent to them, and during their whole afterlife, as they move among their own people, the value of that education will be demonstrated. As I say, I have not had an opportunity of judging of the beneficial effects of the other methods of education, but this method is certainly very successful.


Arthur Meighen: I had not seen the answer to the question put by the hon. member for West Calgary (Mr. Shaw), and as I was responsible myself when this action was taken I want to make a statement about it. In the first place, I really, with all respect, want to suggest that the answer is not correct. It is not complete; it gives an impression that really cannot be true. I remember very well coming to the conclusion that the day school as a means of educating young children had failed. As to the soundness of that conclusion I had no doubt at all; and in pursuance of it, day schools one by one were closed and we resorted in toto to the policy that we never had abandoned, of educating through institutional schools-large boarding schools under religious supervision. When this school was closed it doubtless was in pursuance of that policy; but to say it left these Indians wholly without any institution to which they could go for instruction and education is surely not correct. I remember, even in very difficult times, the acquirement of a tract of land for the purpose of going on at once with the building of the Edmonton school to take the place, among others-two or three-of the one that was at Red Deer.


Charles A. Stewart: The difficulty is that the building has not been put up. .


Arthur Meighen: Very well; but has the Red Deer school been closed, and is there no school in Alberta to which they can go?


Charles A. Stewart: I cannot answer that question.


Arthur Meighen: Oh, it cannot be correct; that was never my intention.


Mr. SPEARMAN:: The Red Deer school is within a very few miles of my own home, and I have been there a great deal. It is a fact that that school has been closed and that the children have been practically transferred to Edmonton. In fact, that was the condition of the agreement on which the church which owned the property relinquished it. I am sorry to say that as far as I have been able to ascertain, the 'bulk of the children who had been attending the Red Deer school now attend no school at all, because the school at Edmonton, which was to have taken care of them, is not in operation-in fact, is not constructed. Most of the children in that district, therefore, are at present without adequate means of instruction.
. Mr. MEIGHEN: Neither the Red Deer nor the Edmonton school was intended to be the only school in the province. I have not, of course, looked the matter up preparatory to this discussion, but I remember now that the Red Deer school was in a somewhat dilapidated condition, and either unsafe or unhealthy for the pupils. But this I am positive of; it never was the intention of the department while I was Superintendent General that those Indians or any others should be without opportunity of attendance at an educational institution. I hope that since that time nothing of the kind has been allowed to take place.
Let me say, on the general question as to the means of education, that the day school is a failure. It was tried for many years; it had a long, winding, struggling, but by no means successful existence. The Indian, to be educated, must be in an environment that permits of education. You cannot get it on the Indian reserve; you cannot get it around his parent's home. There the Indian is under the influence of his parent; the parent is not very anxious that the child attend school, and there is a constant battle between the parent and the department in an endeavour to secure the child's attendance. The influences of the reserve are wholly alien to the purposes of
i
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education. Furthermore,-hon. members can give such explanation of it as appears sound to them; I can come to no other conclusion-I do not believe you can ever educate Indian children unaccompanied by religious instruction, and you cannot have religious instruction unless you have it, for these purposes at all events, under religious denominations. For these reasons, therefore, only a boarding school such as is to be established at Edmonton, such as we have had always through the western country, is the institution for the care of the Indian child. Never was the intention that there should be an interregnum during which it would not be possible for children in any reserve to receive their education. Instead of the department having been niggardly during all these years in the matter of providing Indian schools, I am disposed to think it provided rather too many. That may not apply to Alberta, but it applies elsewhere. Why, I know of competition, fighting among different schools to get enough pupils to warrant the carrying on of the school at all.


Robert Forke: The Elkhorn school was closed, was it not?


Arthur Meighen: Yes, and precisely because of that. It has been established by* experience that the larger institution gets better results: you can educate the children at a lower cost per capita and obtain a better grade of instruction, a more rounded education. As an example, the Qu'Appelle school to which the hon. member refers could be instanced. I have been through that school myself and I know the work it does. It is a large school; you should have a school of about that size to get the best results. On the whole, therefore instead of too few, I think we have had too many. I should be sincerely sorry, no one more so, if, through accident or any other cause, there has been allowed an interregnum in Alberta when there was no access to some suitable institution for all Indian children there.
The matter of health is still greater; at least, whether it is a greater question or not, it is more difficult. The Indian is disposed to tuberculosis. Why? Because Indian life, through the influences of civilization, has been changed. Down through the generations the Indian has led a wild life, roaming the prairies and the woods, and just in proportion as you coddle him and enable him to lead a life of ease, to that extent is he likely to drift into tuberculosis. One of the essentials

is to enable him to take the gradations, from his old state to his new mode of life, by degrees, and to help him,-nay, compel him-as far as possible to live an outdoor life. That is one of the important things, and in pursuance of that policy the department, under my supervision, endeavoured, and successfully endeavoured, to re-establish the herds of reindeer up in the Ungava district, the eastern shore of Hudson bay, and elsewhere as well, in order that the Indian and the Eskimo might have means of livelihood in a manner comparable with those their ancestors had. We found that no matter how liberally or completely we supplied them with the means of living, and as rapidly as we did so, in that proportion the Indians were being eliminated by the ravages of tuberculosis. The same thing holds true throughout the length and breadth of the Indian world in this country. Of course, besides that, as my hon. friend says, the educational institutions do good in teaching habits of cleanliness and the prevention and spread of the plague, and so forth. But I think that most can be done by such a policy as puts the Indian on his resources and makes it his business to work in the open in order to gain the livelihood he must have. The worst thing you can do for him is to provide such conditions as enable him to live at ease-although, of course, that life would not satisfy white men-and without that hard work in the open air which made the ancestors of the Indians healthy and strong.


Arthur John Lewis: I am not so much interested just now in the merits or demerits of education under religious bodies or under a national system, because I presume that this subject will come up later for discussion. At least, we have been so informed by the minister. But I am interested in the education of Indian children, and in view of the statement of the minister that the educational authorities in the religious bodies were asking for increased estimates, I should like to know what accounts for the reduction in this estimate. Looking over the estimates as a whole I find that the amount is about the same as last year. In three or four places there is a large increase, but the large increase in connectioin with the three prairie provinces seems to have been deducted from the item for education in order to level the totals. Has there been any cause for this reduction? Are there fewer children today than there were a year ago, or fewer schools in operation, requiring a smaller

S upply-Indians
number of teachers? We should know these things before voting for this reduction, because we believe to-day that education is one of the most important subjects. There is something else I want to ask in regard to the health situation, as referred to by the leader of the Opposition. Are the religious schools subject to the same supervision in regard to air space and light as schools under the public system, or do the churches build schools promiscuously according to their own plans? If not, must those plans conform to certain federal regulations?


Charles A. Stewart: My hon. friend could not have been in the chamber earlier in the afternoon. I made an explanation covering the question.


Arthur John Lewis: Your explanation was as regards the repairing of buildings. You did not explain the reduction.


Charles A. Stewart: I explained that the reduction of $100,000 odd is made up in an increase elsewhere for repairs, and I stated that we would come down at a later date with supplementary estimates asking for a necessary sum for educational purposes. In the general estimates we are asking for an increased expenditure, which we have discussed item by item, and later on we will ask for practically the same amount as voted last year for education. With regard to the question of ventilation, air space per pupil, and so forth, I have no definite knowledge, but I should judge that this has been left to the bodies who build the schools. Possibly a great deal of attention may not have been paid to that particular matter, but in the newer bulidings which are being constructed by the Government it is being given the fullest consideration. Indeed, the plans are prepared practically by the architect in the department.


Mr. WARNER:: I desire some information regarding the prospect of a new building at Edmonton. I have been asked to inquire regarding that matter, and I should like to know if there is likely to be any provision in the supplementary estimates for the erection of a new building there. I understand that there have already been erected other buildings on the farm that has been purchased in connection with the Indian school, but there is no suitable school building yet. It seems that it is necessary, in order to properly carry on the work of education there, that there should be a new building. The lack of a
proper building has been a handicap for the last three years since the school was moved from Red Deer to that district.
I have had several conversations with the man in charge, Mr. Woodworth, and since coming here have received several letters. The people are anxious to know whether they are going to have this building in the near future. I believe, as has been suggested by the leader of the Opposition and some other hon. members, that the religious organizations can best take care of Indian education. For the greater part of my life I have been in a position to observe the education of Indians, and it is my opinion that this education can be better conducted by the religious bodies than by any system of education on the reserves. I do not think there is any doubt but that the result is better. We are trying to educate these children to live as civilized people live, but on the reserve there is a greater influence retarding their progress in that direction than there is in districts where religious bodies can care for them entirely outside of and apart from the reserve. I understand that not only are children coming to this school from the old Red Deer school but that they are also coming from other localities in Alberta, or should do so when once arrangements have been made to take care of them. As my colleague from Red Deer has stated, many of these children who should at present be under instruction at Edmonton are receiving no instruction at all. The result is they are forgetting the religious and other knowledge which has already been imparted to them and are going back instead of progressing. I would like to have some information as to whether we are likely to have an appropriation in the supplementary estimates for the building at Edmonton, and if so what the character of the edifice will be?


Charles A. Stewart: I may
say that on two occasions since becoming minister I have been visited by the representatives of all the religious bodies, who apparently come together to discuss this matter annually with the department, and a great deal of pressure, in favour of construction has been brought to bear by the Methodist body who are interested in this school. I think there can be no question but that the school is deserving of consideration and that there is a necessity for it. However, that does not mean that Alberta is being entirely neglected in so far as education is concerned because there are twenty-two other points at which educa-
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tional facilities are offered, although perhaps not to the extent they should be, by this particular religious organization. What the leader of the Opposition has just pointed out I find to be true, namely, that there is considerable rivalry between the organizations as to who shall have the larger proportion of the amounts voted, and that each particular organization shall get its full share of consideration. It is one of the positions in public life where you have to be politic and delicate as well. It is a case in which you have to use your judgment as to what can be done, or as to what can be spent for the extension of this work. The matter of the Edmonton building is still under consideration by the department and I shall be able to give a fuller explanation when the supplementary estimates come down-that is the supplementaries because we have not asked for any new vote for the beginning of this school in the general estimates. Still, I have not decided not to ask for some consideration for this particular building this year. The difficulty is this: Apparently every one of the organizations has old buildings of the character mentioned by the leader of the Opposition -old buildings that should be abandoned. In regard to some of them, I am recommending a small expenditure for the continuation of, the work for another year. At least one of them in British Columbia is represented to me as being dangerous to the pupils and liable to fall down upon them. But even so, I am taking chances and asking for a small sum of money for one more year hoping that perhaps prices will have been reduced next year. I want the committee to understand that any delay is not with the idea of, depriving the Indian children of a year's education but rather that we may have fuller information. Then there is this other feature-and I think my hon. friend will understand the situation-that in delaying with the question you have to keep in mind the outlook as a whole and treat all fairly in comparison with the value of the work they are performing. That is also part of our difficulty. I will be very glad to answer my hon. friend, perhaps, more fully when we are discussing the supplementary estimates. All I can say at present is that the matter is under consideration as far as the Edmonton building is concerned.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I would like to know whether the minister is yet in possession of the information I asked him for earlier

in the sitting in regard to the illegal cutting of timber on the Tobique reserve last year?


Charles A. Stewart: I do not appear to have that information yet but I will get it for my hon. friend.


Mr. KENNEDY (West Edmonton) :: Will the minister be good enough to give the names of the different religious bodies that are carrying on this work and the rule that is followed in allocating the government grants to them?


Charles A. Stewart: The government grants are not allocated to them as religious bodies; the grants are on a per capita basis according to the work performed. The religious denominations are

Roman Catholic, Church of England, Presbyterian and Methodist. These are the religious bodies that are carrying on this work.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Are the Baptists doing any of this work?


Charles A. Stewart: I am not sure, but I know that the denominations I have mentioned are.


George Gibson Coote: Would the minister tell us how many Indian schools there are in Alberta and the number of children in attendance? The feeling is prevalent in Alberta that we have not enough schools to educate the children.


Charles A. Stewart: We do not happen to have the figures grouped separately. In the case in question they are for Alberta and the North West Territories. For that area there are 8 day schools; 22 boarding schools;' and 1 industrial school. The number of pupils enrolled are: Day schools 198, boarding schools 1,020, industrial school 44. The average attendance is: day schools 77, boarding schools 886, industrial school 40.


George Gibson Coote: Is the Indian school at Dunbow open now, and if so how many pupils are in attendance?


Charles A. Stewart: Is it the High River school my hon. friend has reference to?


George Gibson Coote: Yes.


Charles A. Stewart: There are 50 pupils in attendance.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

S upply-Mines
Mines and Geological Survey-amount required by the Lignite Utilization Board tor expenses in connection with the carbonizing and briquetting of lignite coaH, $125,000.
Mr. GOULD:: Some time ago I placed a question on the Order Paper concerning the briquetting plant at Bienfait, Saskatchewan. The replies to my question indicate that the plant is closed down at the present time. I desire to ask if this item has to do with the research work that is being carried on, which I maintain is a national necessity, and should be considered as a national expenditure, because the results obtained from these experiments may be available for any other industry or organization in Canada. I see the vote has been reduced, and I should like to know, if possible, why it has been reduced.


Charles A. Stewart: I am very much interested in scientific research, as my hon. friend from Assiniboia (Mr. Gould) appears to be. This is one of the problems that came under my notice since I became minister. There is no intention of discontinuing experiments. Without going into a detailed report of what has happened there, I may say, in the first place, that the organization which controls this experiment is the Research Council. The money is voted through the Mines Department and it became a live question with me, because of the fact that they had expended the appropriation last year and were out of funds. I was desirous of knowing what stage the experiment had reached and what they had learned by that experiment, and I had some difficulty in ascertaining the facts, but I think sufficient has been discovered to warrant continuance, at least for another year, of this experiment. I know my hon. friend will agree with me that it will be very important to low-grade lignite fields in the vicinity of this plant and to all low-grade lignite coal fields in Canada. The experiment had proved fairly successful up to the point of the carbonizing. They had some difficulty with the feeding of the carbonizing units. I think one of the questions asked by my hon. friend related to the damage done by an explosion up there. They have had some difficulty with the six units of the carbonizing plant. We are suggesting that they continue the experiment with one or two units only, to prove that the carbonizing, under the system they have adopted for the experiment is going to be successful without changing all of the units, and then to
prove that the briquetting will also be successful. As this plant was built for experimental purposes, very great saving can be made in the construction of a new plant elsewhere. In the meantime we are asking for sufficient funds to prove the experiment in a small way, leaving the question of the possibility of the manufacture of those briquets, as a commercial undertaking, for another experiment altogether. I do not want to criticize anything that has been done in the past, but I do think it is impossible to combine a commercial experiment with a scientific experiment in connection with this problem. Therefore, we are anxious to devote this money to the purpose of pursuing the experiment in order to first prove that it is possible that the experiment will be successful, and then afterwards to work out the commercial problem. We are not asking for a large sum of money. Explanations have been given to the provincial governments and both have agreed to assist with the money in carrying out this particular experiment.


Oliver Robert Gould: The next question I would ask is perhaps unfair to the minister, but it is known that the deposits of coal tributary to this district cross the international boundary or the 49th parallel. I have wondered if the minister has any information as to, or whether he has seen, any of the experiments carried on by the United States similar to those carried on at Bienfait.


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, they have been carried on in Dakota. New Jersey has also carried on similar experiments.


Oliver Robert Gould: I was prompted to place the question on the Order Paper because I heard of the explosion to which I referred and I went to the plant in my car the same afternoon. A goodly number of pressmen had arrived, but the manager would not allow them to look the plant over; however, he courteously allowed me to go through, and, during the visit to the plant, I met the individuals who were experimenting with the binder for the holding up of the coal after it had gone through the car-bonizer. At that time I think there were five small carbonizers being tested there, and one had previously been condemned. That is the one which was the cause of the explosion, but they were testing it out once more, under a different supervision, to see if it could not be made use of before being abandoned altogether. I understood the
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carbonizers which would not stand the test would be replaced by those which were successful, and larger ones installed perhaps. But it seemed difficult to find a binder that would hold the ignite coal up under strong heat, and that is the reason I asked why the vote was being reduced, because I am very much interested in the work of the scientific department, and I had hoped they would soon make it a real success, so that, as a commercial asset, this lignite would be available for the people of the country. I believe there is enough coal in that southeastern country to energize all the wheels of industry in the southern parts of Saskatchewan, and I would urge upon the Government to explore the Bienfait coal fields on behalf of the people who live tributary to that point.


Charles A. Stewart: I share with my hon. friend some doubts as to the success of this experiment, and I do not want to ask Parliament for money unless we feel that success is in sight. I want to back up at every stage scientific research, but before venturing on heavy expenditure for plant to carry out scientific work, I think we should have a fair amount of assurance that there is going to be some success. I have been very much interested in this experiment. I had a long conversation with the chemist in charge, Dr. Stanfield, when last in the city of Edmonton. After discussing the matter very thoroughly with him and after having, since that time, had a report from him with respect to the whole experiment, I am convinced that there is a strong possibility that this experiment will prove successful. My hon. friend has, perhaps, touched the one doubtful phase of the experiment, that is, the briquetting rather than the carbonizing. We are, however, going to go to work at that, to ascertain all we can as to what success our friends across the line have had in this particular field, and to apply scientifically if we can, all we know about these experiments to the experiment at Bienfait this summer. There is, in the department, a report made upon the matter from the standpoint of commercial possibility but really we must first prove the possibility of the experiment itself before attempting to make it commercially possible.


Mr. LOGAN:: How much has been spent altogether in the experiments?


Charles A. Stewart: About


Joseph Tweed Shaw: I take it that tiie first item for organization and equipment of the ex-

plosives division has reference to the Explosives Act, which was brought into force by proclamation a couple of years ago. I presume the equipment is for the purpose of testing explosives and determining matters of that kind. Has the minister considered the advisability of having that work done by the arsenal authorities under the Militia Department?


Charles A. Stewart: I think my hon. friend will agree as to the necessity of this work; but the matter that he has just raised is one that the Government will have under consideration this year. It has come up from various angles, and I confess I am in favour of making a thorough exploration, at least, into various activities of the Government that seem tb be duplicated. I cannot speak with authority; but as regards the explosives division, I can readily understand its great necessity and value for the safety of the public, as regards testing the safety and strength of explosives.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.
For investigation of mineral resources or deposits; of the mining and metallurgical industries, and of mineral technology, wages, expenses of testing and research laboratories. For publications, English and French editions of reports; purchase of books, laboratory supplies, instruments; miscellaneous assistance and contingencies, $184,500.
John Frederick Johnston: The minister might explain the increase here.


Charles A. Stewart: I cannot locate the details of this particular item except to say that there is an increase of $10,000 in the mineral resources division to provide for marking the mineral deposits found in the various provinces. The major portion of the $5,700 required for ore-dressing plants goes to British Columbia. These plants appear to be necessary in order to bring our minerals to the attention of the general public. There is an addition of $2,000 for investigation of road materials and clay products. My information from the department is that the clay products industry is assuming more importance yearly, and that in order to carry on the investigational and chemical work in connection therewith this increase is necessary. In the fuel and fuel testing

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item there is an increase of $900; a reduction of $5,900 in connection with the peat investigation work, and an increase of $18,300 in the other three divisions.


John Frederick Johnston: In connection with the investigation of clay deposits, has anything been done along this line in Saskatchewan during the past year?


Charles A. Stewart: Nothing in the past year.


Alfred Speakman: I see an item for
wages-which I presume is investigation of wages-occurs in the Labour Department as well as in this department. Does each department do the same work, or is this particular item with respect to a diiferent line of investigation?


Charles A. Stewart: This is the wages of the men in the field.


Arthur Meighen: I notice $100,000 for the establishment of an ore-dressing plant in British Columbia is left out. Needless to say, no part of the money voted last year for that purpose was spent. Has the Government wholly abandoned the idea of establishing an ore-dressing plant?


Charles A. Stewart: The matter came up particularly on the representation of members representing constituencies in the interior of British Columbia. The department has not abandoned the idea entirely, but has come to the conclusion that it would be well to delay construction of the necessary plant for another year at least. The information I get from interested parties is that this expenditure will have to be made in the interests of the mining industry of British Columbia.


Arthur Meighen: The Government seems to have a cold shoulder for British Columbia generally. Is the minister from that province inactive? So far, all the Government needed to know was that something was to be done there when they abandoned it permanently, or temporarily -which, perhaps may be only a disguise for permanence. There is no doubt as to the need of it; not at all. Outside of that there is an increase of $12,400 which the minister has given some explanation of. Is there any possibility of a saving in the publications? They should be cheaper now than before.


Charles A. Stewart: My right hon. friend means, I suppose, that the
printing should not cost so much. I cannot say as to that; I have no information. The deputy minister informs me that at present the publications are all used.


Arthur Meighen: Is the money all used?


Charles A. Stewart: Of last year's vote, $12,568 was not used. I do not see why the printing should be very much larger than a year ago; the demand for publications should be about the same throughout the years.


Arthur Meighen: I think the minister might have saved $10,000 here.


Charles A. Stewart: It does not appear as though the full amount would be required.


Arthur Meighen: I do not wish to be pressing it unduly, because I have quite a lot of confidence in the departmental officials, but I suggest that the minister himself move to reduce that vote. May I ask the Government if they purpose to continue the services of the Editorial Committee? It is as appropriate to put the question on this occasion as on any other. About three years ago the late government established an editorial committee composed of three practical men in the service, one of whom is from his own department-Mr. Lynch. The business of this committee was to review all printed matter for all the departments where they thought money could be saved, because the expenses of printing were becoming prodigious and it was difficult for the minister to tell whether all printing asked for was necessary or not. Wherever they thought there could be reduction of the amount of printing done, the matter was taken up with the proper officer and gone into thoroughly. In practically every case, of course, the officer resisted; but by the persistence of the committee, which reported to a permanent subcommittee of Council,-I cannot recall the exact amount they saved to the country, but I know it ran into the millions, although there was no penury applied to the publication work of the government. I hope it is the intention of the Government to continue that committee, because if the work is abandoned it will not be long until all these publication items start to rise in amount.


Charles A. Stewart: I understand that this committee examines the printing in all departments, so that it would not affect only this vote. It would be a matter of the importance or necessity of the publications issued.

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William Lyon Mackenzie King: I might, perhaps, answer the leader of the Opposition on that point. It is true, as my right hon. friend has said, that this committee has been revising the different publications. It is also true that two members of the committee are chosen from other departments to carry on these duties in addition to their regular work. They have represented to the Government quite recently that there should be some extra consideration in view of that additional service. If the work of the committee is as important as my right hon. friend indicates, probably the members of it might well give their entire time to those duties rather than be withdrawn from their work in other departments. The Government has thought it wise to look into the work of the Editorial Committee when the present session is over, along with the work of some other officials of the Government. In the meantime, the committee will continue.


Arthur Meighen: My comment on the Prime Minister's statement is this. The difficult part of the Editorial Committee's work is done. The continuance from now on will not take anything like the amount of their time that the initial part took, as one can easily understand. This committee, consisting of Mr. Cook, Mr. Lynch and Mr. O'Hara, had to acquaint themselves with the details of the publications of every department of the government. They were able to do that and carry on their work as well; and they did their work very thoroughly. While, of course, there is no objection to the work being looked into I want to say right here that there is a lot more that might be looked into with better advantage than the work of the Editorial Committee. What I am anxious about is that it be continued. I do not think it is necessary to get men to give all their time to it. These men are capable of doing it and performing their other services as well. I am not in favour of additional remuneration to servants of the Crown, but if ever there was a case in which additional remuneration could be justified it is this one. I am not making any statement as to whether they should be allowed something or not for what they did. The great body of the work, the difficult part of it, is done. Speaking generally, though, as a principle, I think that servants of the Crown should be paid a salary and be expected to give all their time, for that salary, in whatever sphere the Government directs them to act.


Charles A. Stewart: I think on examination I can recommend a reduction in that $40,000 of $8,000. I move that the item be reduced by that sum.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Mr. GARDINER:: Is any investigation being made into the tar sands of Alberta? What has been done in the past, and with what result?


Charles A. Stewart: Mr. Ells has been employed by the department and for a number of years has carried on investigational work there. There is a great deal of investigational work done outside the purview of the Government in the matter of the development of tar sand, but Mr. Ells is the special investigating officer of the Government. There is a full report published by him on his work there.
Item as amended agreed to.
Dominion of Canada Assay Office-for maintenance of Assay Office, Vancouver, B.C., $26,000.


Mr. CHAPLIN:: What are the receipts from this office?


Charles A. Stewart: We have not the exact information before us, but I am informed there are about $4,000,000 annually.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Geological Survey, $332,000.
Arthur Meighen: In connection with the surveys, I addressed myself, shortly before leaving the department, to the question as to whether or not the survey work of the Government as conducted in many departments, in the Interior Department, in the Mines Department, in the Indian Lands, and, as well, in the Militia Department, could not be brought together under one branch of one department and thereby a considerable saving be made. I had a committee at work on it when I left. Has the minister given any attention to that question?


Charles A. Stewart: The same question was raised by my hon. friend from South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) the other night, but I did not have the information then. The committee to which my hon. friend refers consists of the following gentlemen: for the Department of Interior, Dr. Deville and Mr. Thomas Shanks, assistant surveyor general; for the Militia Department, Major J. B. Cochrane and Colonel S. H. Osier, and for the Mines Department Dr. W. H. Collins and Mr. W. H. Boyd,

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chief topographical engineer. The work of this committee is to see that there is no overlapping in connection with examination, and to provide for the preparation of maps, in regard to which, again, they see that there is no overlapping. The board has authority to advise on all questions that may arise in relation to topographical surveys, outline maps, modes of projection and selection, unification and improvement of scales, uniformity of symbols and conventional signs, the use of colours, and other topographical subjects.


Arthur Meighen: Would my observations on the previous vote for publications not equally apply here? I refer to the item of $60,000. There has been a reduction of $5,000, and it occurred to me that a larger one could be made. What was the amount spent last year?


Charles A. Stewart: There
was spent last year $42,409.78, and we have made a reduction of $5,000.
partment would get them at the prices they paid last year. Is any effort being made to secure one of the largest of these specimens for our own museum? '


Charles A. Stewart: I understand there are specimens in the museum already.


Arthur Meighen: Some of the largest specimens?


Charles A. Stewart: So I understand.


Arthur Meighen: Comparable with the largest that have been found, one of those tremendous specimens we have been hearing so much about lately?


Charles A. Stewart: I was in the museum last Saturday and there are some fairly large specimens set up there. I do not know whether there are any larger ones in existence or not.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Arthur Meighen: It should be $15,000.


Charles A. Stewart: That is cutting it rather close, in view of the fact that the amount has been subject to careful supervision by the committee in charge.


Arthur Meighen: There is nothing that went up faster in price, and should come down faster, than the preparation of maps.


Charles A. Stewart: I can assure the committee that I have no desire to have more money than is necessary. However, I move that we cut the appropriation by $10,000 which, with the $5,000 already deducted, makes a reduction of $15,000.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Arthur Meighen: What was done last year in respect of the purchase of specimens, and is anything special contemplated this year?


Charles A. Stewart: Does my hon. friend mean museum specimens?


Arthur Meighen: Yes, geological specimens.


Charles A. Stewart: I am informed that last year the purchases consisted of specimens of birds and minerals. I think they formed the largest items of the purchases that were made.


Arthur Meighen: What I had in mind was whether the department was securing any of the dinosaurs that have been found in Alberta. I would hardly think the de-
Grant to the Canadian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy, $3,000.


Charles A. Stewart: This vote has been in existence for as far back as I have made examination.


Mr. GUTHRIE:: Is the amount the same?


Charles A. Stewart: It is the same as last year. It is intended to defray the cost of the publications of the Institute, and in general to meet the expense incurred by the Institute in promoting the interest and general welfare of mining in the Dominion.
<300nt t0 ImperiaI Mineral Resources Bureau.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
$7
Alfred Speakman: I wonder if the minister would mind explaining in a word or two just what the functions of the Imperial Resources Bureau are?


Charles A. Stewart: The functions of the bureau as stated are:
(1)	To collect, co-ordinate, and disseminate information as to resources, production, treatment, consumption and requirements of every mineral and metal.
(2)	To ascertain the scope of existing agencies, with a view ultimately, to avoid any unnecessary overlapping that may prevail.
(3)	To devise means whereby existing agencies can if necessary, be assisted and improved in the accomplishment of their respective tasks.
(4)	To supplement those agencies if necessary, in order to obtain information not now collected which may be required for the purposes of the bureau.
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Hugh Guthrie: When was this vote
first made?


Charles A. Stewart: In 1917.


James Dew Chaplin: There must have been
some reason for reducing the estimates; what was it?


Charles A. Stewart: 
James Dew Chaplin: Is the bureau of any
advantage?


Charles A. Stewart: I am
told it is, I cannot speak authoritatively about the matter.


Mr. CHURCH:: What value have you
derived from this expenditure? The minister seems to have lots of money for these bureaux and also for the museum and for mummies in glass cases in museums, but he seems to have no money for the militia?


Charles A. Stewart: The Department of Militia is not under my control, and therefore I cannot discuss it. I see no reason why the meeting of these experts and the information derived therefrom should not be of value to the various dominions of the Empire. I cannot speak with any great authority with respect to it, but it would appear to me that annual meetings of this character would have considerable value.


Arthur Meighen: I think the vote is
entirely justified. The purpose is not so

much for the meeting as to make known in all the different parts of the Empire the resources of the other parts, in what form they are found, what is done with them within those dominions, in order that those minerals which may be the property of one dominion may be known to the other where in many cases they are not found at all and in order that trade may be thus secured and developed through the various dominions and a market found for the minerals of each. Canada, I think, shares in the benefit, proportionately to the money she spends, because she is more of a mineral country, with the exception, perhaps, of South Africa, than any one of the other dominions. Great Britain, for example, is supporting this Mineral Resources Bureau to the extent of the sum the minister mentioned, but Canada, proportionately, is much more a mineral country than Great Britain, and gains, I think, more proportionately than the amount she subscribes. I think the reduction is right, because the work of the Mineral Resources Bureau is, of course, mostly done when it is thoroughly established; from that time on it would take very much less money.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Amherst Drill Hall, grading etc.. .. $ 5,000 Baddeck, Public Buildings-alterations
to Post Office fittings	 1,000
Halifax, quarantine station, repairs and
improvements	 11,000
North Sydney quarantine stationalterations and repairs	 2,600
Total	$19,600
Mr HANSON:: Will the hon. minister explain the first item in this resolution, $5,000 for grading.


Hon. J. H. KING (Kootenay, Minister of Public Works) :: This amount is required to complete the water-proofing, facing of the walls and construction of stone foundation and undergrading. Part of the work has already been contracted for. The amount required for completion of the contract is $3,219; for drainage and driveway, $1,300 and contingencies $481.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is that a new drill hall at Amherst?


James Dew Chaplin: What is the contract
for this work? When the Prime Minister was leader of the Opposition he very much objected to this item, gave an abundance of reasons why it should not go on and kept us discussing it for a long time.

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Mr. KING (Kootenay):: The contract
was entered into last year, I think.


James Dew Chaplin: Surely the deputy minister could tell us when the contract was entered into.


John Warwick King: November 1921.


James Dew Chaplin: Is the work now going on?


John Warwick King: Yes.


James Dew Chaplin: Or is the contract let without the work going on?


John Warwick King: Part of the
contract has been completed. This is for payment when the work is complete.


Thomas Langton Church: Does the minister know whether the Government has made up its mind to discontinue drill halls or not?


John Warwick King: There is no provision in this vote for a new drill hall. It is to maintain and carry out a contract.


Hugh Guthrie: Could the minister tell us how much has been spent to the end of the fiscal year? The vote was $25,000.


John Warwick King: $3,400 have been expended on the contract.


Mr. HARRIS:: We are told that last year $25,000 was voted. How much of that was spent?


John Warwick King: $3,400 odd.


Arthur Meighen: That was till the end of last month.


Mr. McDONALD:: Is this conversation carried on for the edification of two gentlemen across the table?


Arthur Meighen: I am sure the hon. gentleman has heard me all the time.


Angus McDonald: I cannot hear the
minister and cannot hear the others.


Arthur Meighen: Was there any money spent in the calendar year, up to the end of the year 1921?


John Warwick King: Yes, $3,400.


Arthur Meighen: I thought the hon.
gentleman said it was spent up to the end of last month, the fiscal year; I mean to the end of December-the calendar year.


John Warwick King: The contract was let in November.


Arthur Meighen: Was anything gone on with?


John Warwick King: I am advised they spent that amount before the end of the calendar year.


Arthur Meighen: And nothing was spent between the end of the calendar year and the end of the fiscal year?


John Warwick King: I understand not during the winter season.


Arthur Meighen: December is the winter season too.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
St. John quarantine station, Partridge
Island, repairs and improvement ..	$35,00!
Sussex, public buildings-improvements	 6,501
Traeadie Lazaretto-repairs and improvements	 7,000
Richard Burpee Hanson: I regret very much to see that there is nothing in the estimates this year for the building of a post office and public buildings at the town of Ed-mundston in the county of Madawaska, represented by my friend who is not present to-night. That is the one town in Madawaska which, I am glad to say, is going ahead by leaps and bounds. I understand the post office quarters there are so inadequate that the banks and institutions who have money coming into the town, are obliged to bring it in a certain way, in order that it may not be necessary to leave it in the post office over night. In other words, the public service there in regard to postal facilities is wholly inadequate. The customs house is in another place, and, from my own observation, I can say is wholly inadequate for the business carried on there. The immigration service is in another part of the town, and that, too, is inadequate. If there is one place in the maritime provinces, at all events, that is crying for a proper Dominion building in order to carry on the public service in a proper manner that place is the town of Edmundston. While I quite appreciate that this is a very bad year in which to ask for any expenditure of that character, I might point out to the minister, as he probably already knows, that, at that point, there is great need for improvement in the public services to which I have referred. Money was found by the late government to pay its share of the cost of an international bridge. That bridge is about completed, and it will supply a great need to the community. This Parliament and the Government owe to the business people of that community, where one of the largest industries in the province is located a duty, to
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supply post office facilities, and I would ask the minister if he would be good enough to give this matter his consideration between now and the time that the supplementary estimates are brought down, in order to see if he cannot find enough money to make a start, at least, by the purchase of a lot on which to build a new post office in the town of Edmundston.


Mr. GRIMMER:: While supporting the proposition of the hon. member for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson) in regard to post office and customs facilities at Edmundston, I wish to call the attention of the Minister of Public Works (Mr. King) and the Government to the fact that, in the town of St. George in the county of Charlotte, a post office was promised prior to the war. The people in that town have been perfectly willing to stand back and wait patiently until the Government were in a position to build a post office and customs office. I understand the department went so far as to look at lots and to purchase one; 'but owing to the war the people of the thriving town of St. George, in which are situated the granite quarries of the province of New Brunswick, were willing to wait until the war was over and the Government were in a position to grant their request. I wish to call the attention of the Minister of Public Works and the Government to the fact that the war is now over, that the people have waited patiently, and that the time has, I think, now arrived when the Government should undertake the building of a post office and customs office in the town of St. George, Charlotte. I hope the Government will give this matter their early consideration.


Mr. MacLAREN:: I wish to support the remarks of the hon. member for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson) in regard to the need of better post office facilities in the town of Edmundston. I am quite satisfied that the need is an urgent one, and I, therefore, urge upon the minister that the suggestion that a new post office be erected at Edmundston receive his serious consideration.
Would the minister give the committee some further particulars as to what he proposes to do in the way of improvement to the quarantine station at St. John? Does he propose to extend and enlarge the buildings?


John Warwick King: As regards the suggestion from hon. members in connection with post office requirements in the

town of Edmundston, N.B., and also in the town of St. George in the county of Charlotte, I may say that representa-
9 p.m. tions have been made regarding these post offices, and they are receiving and will receive careful consideration.
As regards the appropriation for the quarantine station at St. John, the amount of $35,000 is required to complete the construction of power, disinfecting and bathhouse under construction, $25,000; general repairs and improvements, and towards construction of a new third class detention shed or building, $7,000; contingencies, $2,118.


Murray MacLaren: Can the minister inform the committee if the number of cases in the Lazaretto at Tracadie is diminishing, or is it about the same as it has been for the last ten or twelve years?


John Warwick King: I have not the information regarding the inmates of that institution, and that can be ascertained from the Health Department. This appropriation deals with improvements to the drainage and building, some painting and general improvements, amounting in all to some $7,000.


Richard Burpee Hanson: This statement that the matter will receive consideration is a stock phrase that does not carry us anywhere, and I should like to know what hope is held out in regard to post office facilities at Edmundston. I am very serious about this matter. It is not in my constituency, and the constituency is one that I do not suppose, in the memory of living man, has ever been represented by a Tory or ever will be. But I happen to have business friends in that constituency who are interested in the matter, and they have asked me to supplement what should have been said to-night by the hon. member for Resti-gouche and Madawaska (Mr. Michaud), who, I have no doubt, is better engaged. There is a real need in that town for improved postal facilities, and things cannot be permitted to run along as they are or, perhaps, some night there will be a very severe loss to the Government and to the public by reason of the wholly inadequate facilities for safeguarding His Majesty's mails.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I should like to support the hon. member for York-Sunbury in his claim for better post office facilities at Edmundston. I know something of conditions there, and I would not want the min-

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ister to rest on the fact that a post office which was good enough five years ago is good enough now, because no town has developed as rapidly as Edmundston, on account of the fact that a pulp and paper mill has been established there in recent years and the population has increased to a greater degree than can be accounted for by the natural increase in population. The town is getting to be an important centre; a large amount of business is done there and I should like to add my support to the hon. member for York-Sunbury in his request for consideration of this matter.


Richard Burpee Hanson: We should have a statement from the minister that the department either is or is not going to do anything in the matter this year. We should have some declaration of policy.


John Warwick King: As regards the post office at Edmundston, I believe statements made by hon. gentlemen opposite have been confirmed by information in the department, and it is true that there is a crying need for improved post office and custom facilities at that point. The matter is receiving serious and careful consideration.


Mr. ANDERSON:: I have heard the
criticism that sanitary conditions are very poor at the quarantine stations at Halifax and St. John. Has the minister any information on the subject?


John Warwick King: Alterations have been made this year, and alterations that will be made during the coming year will do much to improve the sanitary conditions in both of these institutions.


Arthur Meighen: Will the minister advise me how much was spent last year out of this New Brunswick vote of $93,000?


John Warwick King: $65,562 was spent on the quarantine station at St. John.


Arthur Meighen: If $65,000 odd was spent out of $75,000 odd, how could there be a re-vote of $35,000?


John Warwick King: A sum of $46,000 was transferred from the militia demobilization vote of last year, which no doubt the right hon. gentleman is familiar with.


Arthur Meighen: The minister does not answer the question. What was spent out of the demobilization vote is not money spent out of the $93,000. I asked the minister what was spent out of that $93,000.


John Warwick King: Out of the
public works estimates last year $65,000 was expended on the quarantine station.


Arthur Meighen: That could not possibly be.


John Warwick King: Of that sum $46,000 was from the demobilization vote; $1,500 was spent at Sussex. The total expenditure was $66,000 odd, and $20,000 was allowed to lapse.


Arthur Meighen: I am sure no member of the committee is any the wiser since the minister got up, for, in the first place, very few could hear him, and. in the second place, those who did would not be enlightened. Here is a vote of $93,000 that was passed last year for New Brunswick and divided under three heads. So much money was spent and charged against that vote. There may have been some more money spent on St. John and charged against the demobilization vote, of course, but we are not asking about that at all. Now, the minister is not listening, and I will get just the same answer next time. It means nothing. I have asked three times, and now this is the fourth time: How much was spent and charged against that $93,000?


John Warwick King: The total expenditure last year out of the $93,000 was $65,552 on the quarantine station at St. John, and $1,500 on the public building at Sussex.


Arthur Meighen: Does the minister not understand me? There could not have been $65,000 spent out of this vote on the quarantine station, because the minister this year asks to have re-voted $35,000 of the $75,000 allotted last year. How could you re-vote $35,000 out of $75,000 if you had already spent $65,000?


John Warwick King: The appropriation in the public works estimates for 1921-22 was $75,000 for the quarantine station, and $65,552, I believe, was expend-ged at that time. I am told that, in addition to that expenditure, $46,000 was transferred from the militia department demobilization appropriation. $58,688 was expended on the contract for disinfecting houses, and $6,864 on repairs, making a total of $65,552.


Arthur Meighen: How much was transferred from demobilization?


John Warwick King: 


Arthur Meighen: Besides?

Supply-Public Works


John Warwick King: Yes. Those
two items total $65,552, leaving $20,000 that lapsed, thus requiring this time a revote of $35,000 to complete the contract at that point.


Arthur Meighen: I hope this is not my fault and that I do not appear to be unduly harrassing the minister, but really what he says is the result of wrong information or else he is misstating it. He says that $65,552 was spent on the quarantine station, and that besides $46,000 odd was spent upon it from the demobilization appropriation. Surely the minister follows me? Let him forget about this demobilization. We will deal with that amount when we come to the demobilization vote. How much money was taken and charged against that $75,000 for the quarantine station? Now, if the minister intended to say that of the $65,552 spent on the quarantine station, $46,000 odd was from the demobilization vote, then it follows that only $19,000 was spent on the quarantine station and charged against the $75,000. Is that right? If $19,000 odd was charged against that $75,000, then it is quite natural that the minister should only want $35,000 more. It may be that he intends to spend only that amount, and that the whole $35,000 is a re-vote. That is understandable. But let him say exactly what was spent and charged against that $75,-
000.	Was it $65,552, less the demobilization amount of $46,000? If so, that is $19,000 odd. I hope the minister follows me. It is perfectly clear in my mind, and I am sure it is so in the minds of other members of the committee.


John Warwick King: Does the right hon. gentleman want to know the amount of money that came from each vote?


Arthur Meighen: I want the amount charged against the $75,000 vote of last year; the amount charged against the $5,000, and the amount charged against the $13,000.


John Warwick King: $40,000 was
charged against the $75,000.


Arthur Meighen: And actually spent?


John Warwick King: Actually spent. $25,000 was charged against the $46,000, demobilization.


Arthur Meighen: WTe will get to demobilization when we reach it. The first part of the minister's answer is understandable:

that $40,000 was spent out of the $75,000. Now then, may I ask what was spent out of the $5,000?


John Warwick King: The $5,000 was not spent.


Arthur Meighen: How much was spent of the $13,000?


John Warwick King: That amount was not required and not expended.


Arthur Meighen: So that the total
amount spent last year out of the whole $93,000 was $40,000?


John Warwick King: That is right.


Arthur Meighen: Well, I congratulate the minister that we have reached it at last. The amount asked this year is $48,500, or $8,500 more than was spent last year.


Mr. MICHAUD:: While I was out of the House on duty from 8 to 8.30, the question of the post office building at Edmundston, New Brunswick, came up. I may say that a delegation came from Edmundston to Ottawa and made representations with regard to this matter, to the Minister of Public Works, the Finance Minister (Mr. Fielding) and the Secretary of State (Mr. Copp). I have watched this question very closely, and I am much obliged to the hon. members from New Brunswick who, in my absence, brought the matter up. There is not a town in Canada which needs a public building more than Edmundston does. I am not going into the reasons, but this town, the population of which is about 5,000, has contributed to the treasury of Canada about $1,000,000 during the last fifteen years. We were glad to do it and will continue to do it, but I think we are entitled to our share, in view of that large contribution. The present post office accommodation there is very small and does not meet the requirements of the public. I am sure the minister did not forget me when remarks on this subject were made not very long ago by my hon. friends from New Brunswick. He is aware of the efforts I have made in this direction; I hope that after I have resumed my seat he will express to the committee what I have endeavoured to do in connection with the matter.


Hugh Guthrie: The expenditure proposed for New Brunswick is $48,500. For the sake of comparison, take item 144, already passed, for Nova Scotia. Am I

Supply-Public Works
right in saying that the only expenditure under item 144 for last year was the single expenditure the minister has mentioned, $3,600 on the Amherst building?


John Warwick King: I have not the information as to the full amount expended last year.


Arthur Meighen: The minister gave it.


John Warwick King: I gave the expenditures on the contracts we were proceeding with.


Hugh Guthrie: Evidently there was
nothing voted but the four items in No. 144 that appear here. Was the total expenditure $3,600?


John Warwick King: Out of the item of $25,000, shown in No. 144, some $3,400 or $3,500 was expended. That was all out of that vote.


Hugh Guthrie: And this year, out of the same vote, you propose to spend $19,600?


John Warwick King: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Before this vote carries will the minister not give the member for Restigouche and Madawaska (Mr. Michaud) the certificate of character he asked for in the plea he made a moment ago? And if he will not answer me on the point, will he not be good enough to tell us what he has to say in reply to the hon member's representations ?


John Warwick King: The hon. member for Restigouche is well able to take care of himself. He has made very clear and concise representation regarding the necessity for public buildings in the town of Edmundston, and I have no objection to informing him that the matter is receiving the careful consideration of the department.


Pius Michaud: My hon. friend (Mr. Hanson) appears to be very much interested in my behalf. I do not represent as large a constituency as his, with great public buildings, but I can assure him that we are making rapid strides, and although I do not want to make any rash predictions, I think in the near future we shall have substantial buildings in the northern part of New Brunswick.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Are my hon. friend's optimistic remarks based on any promise from the minister?
79s


Pius Michaud: I can assure you the promises are to my own satisfaction for the moment.


Arthur Meighen: What are they?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Maritime provinces generally-Dominion public buildings-improvements, repairs, etc., $38,000.
Richard Burpee Hanson: There is an increase in this item of $13,000. How is it accounted for?


John Warwick King: In the estimates this year Dominion public puildings, improvements and repairs are carried as one vote. Last year there was a special item for the city of Halifax, the city of St. John, and probably the larger city in the island. This year, under the advice of the chief architect, these are being carried as a separate vote. Last year there was a sum of $25,000 for improvements, etc., in the maritime provinces generally, $13,000 for Halifax, and $7,000 for St. John, or a total of $45,000. The vote this year is $38,000, and as it includes the whole of the provinces with the cities there is a decrease of $7,000.


Arthur Meighen: I do not follow that.


Hugh Guthrie: Last year there was just one bulk vote of $25,000 and this year (he vote is $38,000, which is an actual increase of $13,000. What does the increase represent?


John Warwick King: I have not last year's estimates, but my hon. friend will find that for the maritime provinces generally there was $25,000, for Halifax Dominion buildings, $13,000, and for St. John $7,000, a total of $45,000 as against $38,000 this year.


Arthur Meighen: I have last year's estimates here and the minister is wrongly informed. Item 131 in last year's estimates asked for $25,000, just exactly the same as the year before that again.


Mr. MACLEAN (Halifax):: What does it include?


Arthur Meighen: It is worded just the same as the item here, "Dominion public builds-improvements,	repairs, etc." and
the amount is $25,000.


John Warwick King: If my hon.
friend will now turn to the item for the city of Halifax and the city of St. John he will find just what I have stated, $13,000

Supply-Public Works
for Halifax, $7,000 for St. John. This year the amount for these cities is included in this $38,000.


Arthur Meighen: These are under another vote.


John Warwick King: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: That is what the minister says. He has already taken credit for that reduction and he cannot get credit for it again. He cannot claim to have made a reduction above and seek credit for it again.


John Warwick King: I think I have
made this matter plain to the committee. We are consolidating three votes this year, whereas last year we had $25,000 in one estimate for Dominion public buildings in the maritime provinces, in another portion of the estimates we had a sum for Halifax, and elsewhere a sum for St. John, making a total expenditure of $45,000. This year Halifax and St. John are included in the one vote of $38,000.


Thomas Langton Church: What is the principle
on which this money is spent? I suppose the minister has some information in regard to this increase of $13,000. Now, some of the Government buildings in the maritime provinces are new and others ara in a state of disrepair, and it is a poor policy for the Government to keep its buildings in such a state. This is a large item to pass without some details, with which the minister should make himself familiar. What are the buildings that are to he repaired; what is the principle on which the repairs are made; does the local engineer of the Public Works Department go over the buildings every year and see what work is necessary to be done: and what generally is the plan followed in regard to this work? The minister might give us some information on these points. Are tenders called for and does the department furnish the supplies, or is the work done by day labour?


John Warwick King: As I have already stated, there is no increase. As a matter of fact there is a decrease. This expenditure is for general Repairs and maintenance of Dominion buildings in the maritime provinces. These buildings are reported upon from time to time by the representatives of the Government in these localities. Either the engineering or the architectural branch reports upon them

and the work of maintenance is carried on. The definite amount that will be expended on each building is not stated, because that must develop as the season's work proceeds.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Has there been a return to the patronage system in the minister's department in that part of the country? I believe that on the 6th December last the gentleman who did me the honour of opposing me in that election sent out a series of letters to parties in the city of Fredericton to the effect that the work in connection with the public buildings there would go to Mr. So-and-So, to this man and the other. I would like to know if that was done under the authority of the department, or if he did that off his own bat? I would also like to know who is the officer in charge of these public buildings in New Brunswick at the present time? Has Mr. Waterbury been retired, and if so has his superannuation arrangement been made; also who has succeeded him, and if no one has been appointed to the position who is acting as district architect down there?


John Warwick King: In answer to the hon. gentleman I may say that Mr. Waterbury is retiring and Mr. Chambers is acting for the present. There has been no appointment made as yet.


Pius Michaud: Has my hon. friend
from York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson) any recommendation to make as to who should be appointed?


Richard Burpee Hanson: Yes, if the minister will do me the honour of asking me I will be very glad to give him the name of a very competent man.


James Dew Chaplin: I would like to inquire what amounts were actually expended for this purpose upon public buildings in the cities of Halifax and St. John last year?


John Warwick King: In the case of the Dominion buildings in Halifax the following expenditures were made up to 19th April, 1922:
Bedford Row Dom. Analyst. ..	$ 346	29Custom House	
2,117	48Post Office	
2,069	52Bellevue Hospital	
2,946	92Generally	
210	13Rockhead Hospital	
135	10

In the case of the Dominion buildings in the city of St. John the expenditures to 27th April, 1922, were these:

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Customs House	
$2,403	37Old Customs House	
1,425	71Savings Bank	
588	02New Post Office	
2,'629	70'St. John West P.0	
86	95Old Penitentiary	
39	05Creagihan Building	
4	50Total	
$7,177 30


Arthur Meighen: I know now what the minister has sought to convey. It amounts to this, that whereas last year a certain amount was voted in respect to public buildings in Halifax and another item in respect to public buildings in St. John, this year, instead of having those items appear separately, the minister is adding them to the present vote. The former item appeared last year as one of the $195,500 appropriations not required as regards Nova Scotia and in the $13,000 appropriations not required for New Brunswick.


John Warwick King: Not required
for this year.


Arthur Meighen: Not required for this year. That is the way the appropriations of last year that are not required appeared. So the minister, after admitting he is asking for more than was spent, takes the credit for that lopping oif. What I want to call attention to is this: Why has the minister made this change in the allocation? It just means that whereas last year we knew where some money was going, this year we know nothing about it. I call this particularly to the attention of the hon. member for Carleton (Mr. Caldwell). It is making still worse the habit of gathering within one miscellaneous item various details that formerly appeared- and that ought, if possible, at all, to appear-one by one under the appropriate designation. Why has the minister made a change? Is it merely so that the minister-judging his course by the exigencies of the hour, and perhaps by the complexion of the locality-will be able to distribute his money where he thinks it will do the most good?


John Warwick King: These expenditures are made for maintenance and repairs, conditions that are unforeseen, and the chief accountant of the department has advised that these votes be consolidated. There is no great advantage in setting out an expenditure of $15,000 for Halifax any more than to set out a vote of, say, $30,000 for the province of Nova Scotia when the
details are not now known. They will be known next session, however, and can be given to the House at that time. I cannot see any objection to consolidating the votes.


Arthur Meighen: Apparently not. I
made the correct guess all right.


Mr. LOVETT:: Before the item is passed I would like to direct the attention of the minister to the inadequate accommodation provided for post office purposes in the town of Bridgetown in the county of Annapolis which I have the honour to represent. That accommodation is so limited that the citizens are compelled to stand out on the sidewalk while the mail is being separated and distributed. The people there feel that they have been patient in putting up with this drawback and now that the war is over are anxious to have better accommodation provided. I direct the attention of the minister to this matter, and ask his favourable consideration towards placing in the supplementary estimates an amount sufficient to provide a creditable post office for the town.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Quebec-'Dominion Public Buildings, improvements, repairs, etc., $80,000.
Grosse Isle Quarantine Station-repairs, $10,000.
Montreal-Ordnance Stores Buildings, $27,200.
Quebec Post Office-Party wall, $10,000.
Arthur Meighen: How much of last year's vote was spent?


John Warwick King: In round figures $55,000.


Thomas Langton Church: There is an item of $10,000 to provide a "party wall" in Quebec. Have you not sufficient seats in Quebec now without erecting a party wall to hold them?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Public Buildings, $349,200
Arthur Meighen: How much of the appropriation was spent last year?


John Warwick King: $707,000 odd.


Arthur Meighen: Could the hon. gentleman tell us how that was divided?


John Warwick King: I have not that information.


James Dew Chaplin: The total amount of the vote last year was some thing over a million dollars, and a line at the bottom says "Appropriations not required for 1922-23, $707,000 odd." Now the minister says some $707,000 was spent.
Supply-Public Works


John Warwick King: That amount
was used last year and was not required this year.


Thomas Langton Church: There are a number of post offices in Ontario in need of repairs. The returns from the Toronto post office are nearly $5,000,000 which is almost double the returns from Montreal. The main post office in Toronto to-day cannot handle the business, and the public have been greatly inconvenienced. A statement of that fact has been made to the minister on several occasions. The business of that post office is almost as large as that of Montreal and Winnipeg combined. The Government should do something to relieve the situation. Toronto people are busy and they cannot do their business properly at the present time.	A new custom house is also
needed. I might refer also to the city of Hamilton, but the hon. gentleman (Mr. Mewburn) representing that city is present to-night and can deal with that. When we are voting large sums of money for the various post offices throughout Canada, Quebec, Manitoba, or any place else, I think these post offices I speak of should be put in a proper state of repair, so that the public will not be inconvenienced. In order to operate a post office or a custom house properly, you re-, quire a proper plant. The Hamilton post office handles a large volume of business. I have a table here showing the business done in the various cities and towns throughout the country, but I will not read it to-night. Certainly, more money should be spent on the larger post offices and custom houses throughout the province of Ontario because they are in a bad state of repair and can not handle the business. Business men are complaining, but matters remain as they are and nothing is being done. The minister's deputies have been in Toronto post office and know the situation. If the business is to be handled properly, there must be some change. I wrote the minister in regard to the congestion in the temporary Toronto customs house, where people who are doing business have to waste a great deal of their time standing in line. The Government have a rented custom building in Toronto, and if they keep on the way they are going, they will have a tent next for their custom house. Surely the Government should take up this matter. The sum of $707,000 was appropriated last year for Ontario buildings, and reports were made in regard to neces-

sary repairs throughout Ontario; the money was available but, for some reason or other, it has not been spent. The Toronto post office and custom house come under this item for repairs. I should like to hear what the minister proposes to do regarding the post offices of Toronto, Hamilton and other places where at present they cannot possibly handle the volume of business. The table I have before me shows they are making money out of these offices.


Mr. MEWBURN:: I am glad to know
that the suburb of Hamilton still has a friend, as far as the post office is concerned. I notice the very extravagant figure of $2,000 has been placed in the estimates for repairs to the Hamilton post office. I trust that amount will be spent at an early date, because, goodness knows, it is needed badly enough. Has the Government considered what action they are going to take in Hamilton regarding the new building they intended to erect, which was to include both customs house and post office? The Government to-day are leasing properties in the city of Hamilton for which they are paying large rentals. I think the money they are paying for rentals would help pay the interest on the cost of construction on a building there which is badly needed. There are rumours around Hamilton that the Government is contemplating selling the piece of land on which it was proposed to build the customs house and post office.


John Warwick King: I may advise
my hon. friend, in regard to public buildings in Toronto and Hamilton, that the policy of the Government will be to maintain those buildings as best they can at the present time. The matter has received serious consideration. I think there has been a suggestion made in the department that there should be some exchange of property in Hamilton. That matter has not yet been very seriously considered.


Sydney Chilton Mewburn: How could there be
any exchange? Not for any other Government property surely?


James Dew Chaplin: What is the minister's
policy on the matter of revotes? A few years ago a sum was voted by Parliament for the very much needed repairs to the St. Catharines post office. It was carried a second year as a revote, but has been dropped now. Can the minister not go back and revote the amount proposed to be expended several years ago? If the engineers in the department thought it was

Supply-Public Works
necessary three years ago to put an item in for repairs on the building, what must be thought of the proposition now?


John Warwick King: The fact that
a vote has lapsed does not necessarily mean that it will be revoted the next year. I would not like to be held accountable for the many votes that have been lapsed throughout Canada.


Thomas Langton Church: What does the Government propose to do, to take care of the increased volume of business in the Toronto post office? If the minister does not know, he can ascertain from his deputy. The same question applies to the customs house. The Government has bought a large lot of land for the new custom house. The customs receipts of that port are very considerable. The Government has a vacant lot, and has rented a temporary customs building, and perhaps they will have the customs building eerected on that lot. Surely the minister can tell the committee what they propose to do to handle the business, which has been increasing 15 to 20 per cent each year. They have the same equipment now that they had years ago and it is very poor. The Government should have one policy for the whole of Canada and I am not asking anything for Toronto that other municipalities should not get. The minister has the reports of his deputy, and I think the committee should be informed as to what is to be done to provide increased facilities to handle the post office business.


John Warwick King: Improved facilities have been provided in Toronto recently, and a new postal station, and, I believe, new equipment has been provided at the Union station. I should be very glad to see the business increase in Toronto, and when it does we will, as in the past, provide further facilities. It is not proposed to make any further capital expenditure this year.


Sydney Chilton Mewburn: In answer to the question I asked the minister about the Hamilton post office, I understood him to say that the department was considering the question of exchange or sale of a portion of the property on which it was proposed to build an extension. Would the minister be willing to bring down the papers in connection with that, because the matter is one of vital interest to the citizens of Hamilton?


John Warwick King: It is a suggestion that has been made, probably newspaper talk; but no consideration has been given to the matter by the department, and I am not sure whether there are any papers in connection with the matter in the department.


An hon. MEMBER:: There must be some papers in connection with it.


Mr. ELLIOTT (South Waterloo):: I
should like to call the attention of the committee to the condition of affairs in the post office in the city of Galt. This post office was built many years ago when Galt was but a town; it has grown to be a city now, and the post office facilities are quite inadequate for present conditions. On some occasions when a large quantity of mail is received, some of the mail has to be dumped outside, because accommodation inside the post office is not nearly adequate for existing conditions. I understand that last year an appropriation of $15,000 was made for the building of an extension to the post office in the city of Galt. Is an addition to the present post office still in contemplation?


John Warwick King: I believe that was for an addition to the present building, but the work was not gone on with last year.


Robert King Anderson: I should like to draw the attention of the minister to the. fact that we have also a town in the county of Halton, where an appropriation was made early in 1914 for the building of a new post office. A site was purchased, and it still remains without a building having been erected on it. The minister can find in his department a good deal of correspondence in regard to this post office. The one that is there at the present time is not a post office, but simply a store. The place has grown from a village with a population of 1,000, to a town of over 2,000 population. It was incorporated last year; the surrounding country is developing very much, and the consequence is that the present post office is very inadequate. Would the minister look up the correspondence and inquire into the matter a little further in order to see if, now that the war is over, the appropriation can be made and the post office built?


William Elliott: Is the appropriation for the Galt post office still extant?


John Warwick King: It has lapsed.


William Elliott: I
might say further, in this connection, that

Supply-Public Works
in the city of Galt we have a large rural centre which further aggravates the situation. I think the Government and the minister would be well advised to take into consideration the enlargement of the present building, or the sale of the present building and the erection of a new one which would accommodate the customs as well as the post office. Under present conditions, the customs is in a separate building and this entails quite a rental every year, the expenditure, as a rule, being very largely increased on this account. It would be well if the minister would look into this question and give the city of Galt proper consideration in the way of postal facilities.


Mr. McKENZIE:: I quite agree with hon. gentlemen that it is highly important that we should have proper customs houses and post offices, and that the country generally should receive necessary accommodation in public matters of that character. I am rather startled, however, at the general hue and cry which comes to us to-night from the great province of Ontario. I have been sitting in this House for
10 p.m. the last ten good, long years of Tory rule, with my good friends from Ontario, who, with a few exceptions, are here to-night, sitting behind the then Prime Minister, the then Minister of Public Works and the then Postmaster General, and I cannot recall any complaints whatever about accommodations that were handed out to the people of Ontario. They may have been in the secrets of this chamber with the then Prime Minister; but I invite him to search the pages of Hansard when the estimates of his ministers were going through, to find any complaints, for instance, from hon. members for Toronto. It is true that the people of that city had but third or fourth or fifth-rate men compared with what they have been sending us lately; but nevertheless those men thought that they were doing the best they could, and yet we heard nothing about the post office. I believe Toronto was on the map during the last ten or fifteen years; at all events, it was on the map while the hon. gentleman (Mr. Church) who represents that city, was mayor. He was on the map during those years; he is on the map now, and it is too bad if the city was so badly neglected that, to-day, when there is a change of government for only three or four months or less, the deplorable condition of things, which hon. members for Toronto present, and present truthfully, 
exists in that city. I am surprised that they should have put up with this, but they have put up with it until they are beginning really and thoroughly to understand that they are being neglected in the way that they are. I am sorry that the affairs of the province of Ontario, in Hamilton, in Galt, in Toronto itself and all around, have been so neglected; and I think it is only fair that I should mention that, if the government of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Meighen) who now leads the Opposition, was such a good government as hon. gentlemen used to say it was, and if it was doing its duty to the people of Toronto in public matters, it is surprising that, after it has been out of power only for three or four months, conditions which have been put forward to-night should be found to exist. There is only one way in which that could have occurred. Ten years ago when the Laurier government went out of power, we had no such complaints. Although we had, in those days of the Laurier regime, a very vigorous opposition from Ontario, we heard very little about those things, I cannot recall any particular complaints; and for that reason and because that vigorous opposition did not find much fault, I can only explain the matter in one way, that a fair distribution of public money was being made and that public buildings were being kept in excellent repair. Ten years of the administration of hon. gentlemen opposite have passed by, and the condition we find is as it has been described. I would be sorry to think, for one moment, that hon. gentlemen would give a description of the condition in which that province is left other than what it is. If it is what they represent it to be, there is only one story, and that is that their friends, in whom they had such confidence and in whose hands they left the administration of this country and would have continued to leave it, have neglected them to the extent they have. It is hardly fair that the present Minister of Public Works (Mr. King), who is here but a few weeks, who is a stranger to his department, who is making the most of the legacy that has been handed down to him by the outgoing Minister of Public Works of the Tory administration, should be catechised unduly. It is proper to ask questions; but it is hardly fair that with bell, book and candle he should be criticised and held responsible for conditions that have been handed down to him and that he has just begun to acquaint himself with.

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I am not trying to be critical of anyone, but I think it is only fair to point out to the committee and to the country that the present ministers who are getting along as best they can with these estimates are taking up the burden that was laid down but a few days ago by their predecessors in office, who of necessity were better acquainted with their departments than the present ministers can be expected to be after having been in control for only a few months. It is well to point out that such improvements are necessary, but I do not think that hon. gentlemen can afford to give themselves such airs and be so critical and fault-finding when they reflect for a moment that this is a legacy which they themselves have handed down to the present Government.


Arthur Meighen: Mr. Chairman, the
committee could not help but lament while listening to the masterly speech of the Solicitor General that a gentleman of his talents should now be cribbed, cabined and confined within the comparatively inactive environment of the Solicitor General's office. It is too bad that a large department demanding the application of business talents is not under his charge.
I will try first to extract the point he intended to make and that perhaps somewhere is drowned in the deluge of his words. He says: If there is a dearth of public buildings in Ontario the fault is with the late government, and you should have made bitter complaints during the tenure of office of the late government, rather than address those complaints to the novice ears of the present Minister of Public Works (Mr. King), who really, so the Solicitor General intimates, knows nothing about the department. That apparently is the point the Solicitor General tries to make. Yes, there is a dearth of public buildings in Ontario, a dearth for which the late government holds itself coresponsible. But what the Solicitor General forgets and has too often forgotten in recent years is that the late government carried this country through a war, that the late government turned the energy of the nation into the war, that the late government devoted the resources of the country to the war, and that consequently public works throughout that period had to wait. We said to our members, and they accepted our words, that until we got through the war, and the after effects of the war, we could not go on with the construction of further public works unless
imperatively necessary and we did not, as evidenced by the words of the Minister of Public Works to-night, as respecting one item after another, he tells us only a small amount was asked for of which only a trifling portion was spent. That is the actual fact, and members accordingly did not press unreasonably for public improvements. We had to go along with just as little expenditure on public works as possible, having in mind the major necessities of the nation, and that we did so is a matter for general congratulation. That was the position we took on the floor of Parliament, and hon. members and the country accepted our answer, because it was a good answer. That is the reason why these needs face us to-day. We have needs, it is true. We do not want to press any more than do hon. members for expenditure beyond the financial resources of the country. I do not think we should go on with large public expenditures-none except those which are quite unavoidable. But I cannot help recaling that though I went through province after province, and made no promise of public expenditure for the sake of getting a single vote, made, for example, in Prince Edward Island, near the minister's home, a frank statement that we would not claim to be able now to go on with the widening of the railway gauge in that island, I was followed by his leader, who criticised me from the stump throughout the Island because I failed to make a promise to spend millions of dollars on that enterprise. Possibly the recklessness of his leader's promises and intimations counts in some degree for a measure of the support that is found in his party in the House now; I do not doubt that it does; but upon their fulfilment depends what little there is left of the reputation of the Government, and there will be some penalty to pay in respect of their nonfulfilment, just as in recent days we have witnessed the penalty that the Government has had to pay in respect to other pledges that they have abandoned.


Thomas Langton Church: Perhaps the Solicitor
General takes his politics and his religion too seriously. He is, I understand, a doctor; he is a D.D., anyway-I do not know whether a Doctor of Divinity or not. I think the hon. gentleman might be better employed in helping his young colleague to explain this item. I wish to give the Minister of Public Works every support, and it may be that he is not getting the support that he should receive. But the
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Solicitor General must understand that there are no politics in this so far as Toronto is concerned. I have ah'eady laid it down very clearly that what we want is a proper post office and custom house to efficiently take care of the great volume of business there. These public utilities should be considered from the commercial aspect only. Away back when Sir Wilfrid Laurier was in power the then member for South Toronto, Mr. Claude Macdonell, year in and year out called the attention of the government of the day to the deplorable state of affairs of the Toronto postoffice and customs house. The government tore down the old customs house, but no new accommodation has yet been provided. If they did not intend to build a new customs house, adequate to the present day needs of the city, why did they tear down the old building? I complained for seven years about these things to the late government. It is the duty of the government to give proper administration of the post-offices. There should be a reduction in the rate on drop letters. Although $5,000,000 is taken out of the pockets of the citizens of Toronto, they are still charged two cents for drop letters. The rate should go back to one cent for drop letters. It is not creditable to public ownership that the administration of our post-offices and customs houses either in Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg or any other city should be so inadequaate that the public suffer through the lack of proper plant or service. Only a few days ago the Postmaster General of the United States said that the time had come when the public should be given the best accommodation in the shape of post-offices and customs houses. And the public are entitled to it. Why should the people have to line up at the customs house in Toronto or any other city to wait as long as seventy-five minutes before they get up to the wicket? Why should politics be brought into this matter? I would make the same complaint in regard to Montreal, or any other post-office in the minister's own riding. I may be a little unfair to the Minister of Public Works in asking him about post-offices and customs houses which are not under his department, but this is the only opportunity we get under the rules of the House to bring the matter up. When the Government derives $5,000,000 revenue from Toronto's postoffice, they should certainly provide a proper plant for the accommodation of the public. Those who have to go to the 
customs house are losing thousands of dollars every day owing to the grossly inadequate accommodation. I do not care whether a Liberal government, a Conservative or even a U.F.O. government be in power, the people are entitled to proper post-office and customs house accommodation. I venture to say that a great deal more revenue would be derived from the Toronto post office if proper accommodation were provided, and from fifteen to twenty per cent more revenue would be received from a customs house in which the public could get proper service. Adequate accommodation should be provided, whether it be in Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver or any other of our cities. I hope during the recess the Minister of Public Works, the Postmaster General and the Minister of Finance will look into these things and give the people some relief. They have been clamouring for this for ten or twelve years, but nothing has been done. The Solicitor General would be better advised if he would preach fewer sermons and give us more information; there is plenty of time for sermons on Sunday. There is one minister on the treasury benches who is a pulpit orator and takes his turn on Sunday; the next to do that, I suppose, will be the hon. Solicitor General.


Joseph Henry Harris: How is this $95,000 for improvements, repairs, etc., to be distributed through Ontario?


John Warwick King: I am not able to give that information. It is to meet the requirements as they come up throughout the year.


Joseph Henry Harris: In view of the fact that Toronto and suburbs have postal receipts equal to those of Montreal or any twenty other cities in Quebec, is it possible to say how much of the $95,000 will be devoted to the Toronto district?


John Warwick King: No; it will depend on the requirements of that district.


James Dew Chaplin: The minister's answer to me a few minutes ago with respect to that revote at ,St. Catharines was not, in my estimation, a very satisfactory one. Would he, when his estimates come up again, give us some information with regard to that revote?


John Warwick King: Yes.


James Dew Chaplin: The Solicitor General twitted us with not having last year pressed the then government to make improvements in our respective counties. The Solicitor General himself was never back-

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ward in coming to the committee and pressing very hard for whatever was wanted by Nova Scotia.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: That is why I expected hon. members to have the courage of their convictions when they believed things were needed in Ontario, and to put their case before the House. When no such complaints were made, I had reason to suppose that everything was all right. But when it was a Tory government and there was Tory neglect, everything was regarded forgivingly and nothing was said. The ex-Prime Minister told us tonight that they could not spend any more money for these purposes. Up to the sixth of December, any requests for these things were met by the answer that all the money had been used and was being used for war and demobilization purposes, but what a tremendous change took place following the election! The first week in the House under the new administration that excuse was forgotten; it was no longer good. Well, if the lack of money on account of war expenditure was a good answer to these requests while the war was on and for the three years following the war, surely it ought to be an answer to be given by this Government, at least until it has an opportunity of settling the bills left unpaid and unprovided for by the late administration. These are the reasons I give for expecting hon. gentlemen to be reasonable in their criticism.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I am sure we are glad to have the second instalment of the hon. gentleman's lecture. But I do not think the minister has been unfairly treated; he has asked for no quarter and has made no complaint. I know I have been courteous in my remarks, and I do not think the lecture of the hon. gentleman is called for. But I would say this in reply to his remarks: we are getting further from the war every day, and as the business of the post offices increases, as exemplified by Toronto, for instance, these necessities become more pressing. The situation in Ed-mundston is due to a large increase in the activities of the commercial life of the community, and it is absolutely necessary that postal facilities be provided there. It is for that reason, and not because there has. been a change of administration, that gentlemen on this side are doing their duty in directing the minister's attention to these circumstances. There is no necessity, therefore, for the Solicitor General
rising up in his righteousness and giving us a lecture on propriety.


Thomas Langton Church: At the last election the Liberal candidates in Toronto district promised a new post office and customs house for Toronto if their party was returned; the public were assured that they would not have to suffer long. I hope that during the recess a survey of the situation will be made; there have been a hundred surveys in the past fifteen years.
I hope something will be done to do away with the condition under which the people have to transact their business owing to congestion. The custom work will be transacted next out on the sidewalk if it continues-because that is what it is coming to. The same state of affairs prevails in Hamilton; there is positive congestion, and I do not see how they get on with the business. I hope the Government will look into these things in the interests of efficiency and with a view of retaining the confidence of the people in these public services.


Charles A. Stewart: I wish to say a few words in reply to the remarks of the hon. Solicitor General (Mr. McKenzie) . I was somewhat surprised at the argument he put up to-night. If he lived in Hamilton as I do and saw the treatment which has been meted out to that city for the past few years, he would tell a different story. Some years ago the old buildings were torn down, two or three hundred thousand dollars spent on the purchase of land and an appropriation of $300,000 or $400,000 put in the estimates for a new post office building. In 1914 the war came on and the matter was allowed to stand. I do not blame the government for that; they had their hands full, and I do not think anybody could find fault with the way they acquitted themselves. But three years have passed since the conclusion of the war, and for the last six or seven years we in Hamilton have not received a cent of money for improvements of any kind. Hamilton has not been fairly treated, particularly in view of the revenue it produces, and I think it is about time we got some money for the buildings that we so badly need.


Hugh Guthrie: Last year the total vote under this item was $1,012,267. I understood the minister to say that the sum of $700,000, in round numbers, was spent last year. Is that correct?


John Warwick King: The sum of $700,000 was either spent or lapsed.

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Hugh Guthrie: What proportion was spent?


John Warwick King: I have not the items.


Hugh Guthrie: It is now drawing towards the hour of adjournment, and my leader, who has just gone out, is anxious to have this information before this item is carried. If the minister has not the details now perhaps he would be so good as to let the item stand and give us the information on another occasion.


Mr. JOHNSON (Moosejaw):: It seems to me that the discussion on this estimate is somewhat different from what we have been accustomed to in connection with all the various other estimates that have come before us. Usually we have been striving for economy, but to-night it seems that everybody wants a new post office or public building of some description. Some of us since coming to Ottawa have come to the conclusion that there is rather a surfeit of public buildings, and we have failed to understand the reason for this. How many public buildings are there in'this city occupied by the Dominion government, and are they occupied to capacity? I should like particularly to have some information regarding the item for departmental buildings, fittings, etc., amounting to $75,000.
I note that there is a reduction of $25,000, but on the next page I see an item of $700,000, which seems pretty much to cover the same thing. Is that an annual charge for depreciation against office fittings, etc.? The next question I would ask is as regards the Daly building. What is that building used for? I observe an increase in connection with it of $54,000. These things appear rather important to some of us as we go around the various departments, especially in view of the bombardment to which we are being subjected by the civil servants in regard to the bonus; and I at any rate have been forced to the conclusion that possibly the Civil Service has after all been overmanned. If it is overmanned is it not possible that the buildings provided for the service are also more than the actual necessity calls for?


John Warwick King: The $75,000 referred to is required for the purchase of metal file casings, shelving, and other things required in the departmental offices in Ottawa. There are five hundred drawer steel cabinets, at $45 apiece, amounting to $22,750; Supreme Court library special fittings, $3,000; Trade and Commerce Department,

$110; special metal fittings, $49,140, making a total of $75,000. The Daly building was bought in 1921 on the instalment plan. The first payment was made in 1921-22 of $100,000 and the payment this year will be $154,000, the total being $1,270,000, payable in ten years.


Robert Milton Johnson: I als*
asked the minister whether the buildings occupied by the Dominion government in this city are not more than are required. Was it necessary to purchase that building at the time to accommodate the Government?


John Warwick King: The Government deemed it cheaper to purchase than to pay rent.


Joseph Henry Harris: In view of the fact that
the minister cannot give me a precise answer to my question and is unable to give the hon. member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) the information he desires, will he not let this item stand?


Thomas Langton Church: The public business is
greatly expanding in Ottawa, and in my opinion the individual buildings which the Government is buying cannot adequately accommodate the public service. The business of the various departments year after year is increasing enormously, and now that the war is over I hope the minister will look into the policy adopted at Washington, of co-ordinating the different properties in the capital city with a view to economy. In the next ten years there is bound to be a tremendous expansion of public business in Ottawa, and instead of having rented property on every street, buying small buildings here and there, and renovating old buildings which are really of no use for the purposes for which they (are .required, a great economy might be effected by a proper system of co-ordination, besides the advantage that would be gained from such centralization of Dominion property. Look at the new House of Commons as an example of it. Ottawa needs a modern office building built for to-morrow. As it is, it is difficult for one to find his way around if he wants to get in touch with the various departments. I realize that the Government has been in office only a few months, but if they gave this matter careful consideration they could economize considerably not only on capital account but in regard to maintenance, because the upkeep of these various old buildings is a serious item.

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Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Is the Income Tax
office at Hamilton situated in the post office building?


Hugh Guthrie: No; it is in the Imperial building.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Is that a Government owned building?


John Warwick King: No.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: An item in one of the Toronto newspapers says that four of the North West Mounted Police have been guarding the building with automatics and carbines although there was only $2.90 in the vault. If that is the case it would appear hardly worth while having this force keep guard over the place.


George Perry Graham: Probably they did not
get there soon enough.


John Warwick King: I have no
objection to letting the item stand. As a matter of fact I have a summary of the expenditures making up the $707,860, but I cannot say now whether it has all been expended. There may be payments that have lapsed. If my hon. friend desires that information it can be obtained and given later.


Hugh Guthrie: What the leader of the Opposition wanted was the amount that had been actually expended on each of the items during the past year. If my hon. friend will give us the information at the next sitting of the committee he will probably expedite the matter.


John Warwick King: I will be very glad to do that.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I would like to know
where the vote for the Dominion government's share of the new International bridge at Edmundston can be found?


John Warwick King: On page 42, I think, under the vote for roads and bridges.
Item allowed to stand.
Saskatchewan. Dominion Public Buildings: Improvements, repairs, etc., $17,000.
Moosejaw, Public Building:	Improvements,


Mr. EVANS:: What is contemplated regarding the Saskatoon post office? The rent being paid out at present would be more than sufficient in a couple of years to provide ample room in the existing building to properly carry on the work there which is at present suffering from lack of accommodation. I know that a survey of the
present building was made some two years ago and it was decided to enlarge the premises. Why that determination was not carried out I do not know, but certainly with the labour at present available the work should be gone on with this year. I would also like to know if the government owns any vacant property in Saskatoon upon which it is contemplated to erect a new post office; also the cost of that property and what is proposed to he done in that connection?


John Warwick King: I understand that the Government has property in Saskatoon that is available as a site for building, but it is not intended to proceed with construction this year.


Arthur John Lewis: The vote for the province of Saskatchewan is the smallest but one of the votes for all the provinces, and evidently not very much money is going to be expended on public buildings in that province. I would like to know if the department owns the post office at Swift Current. The present building there is very small and wholly inadequate for the purpose, being on the ground floor of a business block. I would not wish the department to build a post office because in that city there are numerous empty buildings quite adequate for postal facilities, but certainly something should be done promptly. I wonder whether the item of $17,000 had any reference to Swift Current.


John Warwick King: For the information of my hon. friend I would say that the Government owns property in Swift Current but not any public buildings. It is renting premises there now, but there is no intention to build this year.


Mr. CARMICHAEL:: I would like to emphasize the remarks of the previous speaker as to the small vote for public buildings for the province of Saskatchewan. The name Saskatchewan is of Indian origin but the people out there are not all Indians, nor does the land1 consist of desert or Indian reserves either. In line with my hon. friend who preceded me, I maintain that this vote is the smallest appropriation made for any province. The apportionment of public money for Nova Scotia would look to be smaller but if you combine the vote for Nova Scotia of $19,600, the vote of $48,500 for New Brunswick, and the vote of $38,000 for the maritime provinces generally, it will be seen that the average for each of three maritime provinces is over $35,000. Our province of Saskatchewan
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is a real large block of land and the population is 200,000 larger than that of either Manitoba or Alberta. Now it seems to be that an injustice has been done the banner province of Canada-so far as wheat producing goes it is the banner province. I would like also to bring to the attention of the minister the fact that in the town in which I have the honour to live the post office is housed in a small rented shack, and I was informed by the postmaster that he is compelled to move, as the Bank of Commerce which owns the building, is going to haul it away out on the prairies in order that risk of Are may be eliminated. The postmaster accordingly will be compelled to move and find other quarters. It seems to me that this young and growing province should have more consideration in the way of public buildings than apparently it is receiving judging from the estimates before us. However I do not advocate following the policy of the hon. members for Toronto, who believe that money should be spent lavishly. I recollect that our national debt is large and that money is needed for other purposes. I simply desire to point out that justice should be done to the prairie provinces because comparing the votes for this purpose with similar votes for the other provinces of the Dominion we are suffering from a glaring injustice.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Alberta-Dominion Public	Buildings-improvements, repairs, etc., $17,000.
Edmonton-Public Building-alteration for post office accommodation, $14,000.
Joseph Tweed Shaw: In the general discussion regarding post offices perhaps I may be in order in asking the minister what provision, if any, has been made for building a post office in the city of Calgary. I d'o not know if the minister is aware of the situation in that city, part of which I have the honour to represent. The fact is that the Dominion government have a very valuable site there on which a stone post office was constructed many years' ago. The late government, I believe, pulled down that post office so that at the present time there is absolutely nothing but a hole in the centre of the city to represent where the Dominion government building formerly stood, and in the meantime all the public offices which could properly be housed in a properly constructed) post office building are located in rented premises in various portions of the city. Some time ago I

asked for a return showing the amount of rental paid by this Government for public buildings in the various parts of the city of Calgary, but that report has not come to hand. I have not any doubt that it was a very large item indeed. The amount paid for rental for post office purposes alone must be very considerable. In view of these facts, has the minister under consideration, or does he contemplate in the Supplementary Estimates, provision for the erection of a post office in Calgary in the not too distant future?


John Warwick King: I can well understand the nature of the hon. gentleman's inquiry, because there has been great disappointment in the matter of public buildings in that city for a number of years. It is true that a building was torn down, and plans and excavations were made for a new building, but I do not think it is within the power of the Government, or that it would be wise this year, to undertake the construction of a large and expensive building such as the post office in Calgary would be. I am afraid it will have to go over until financial conditions improve, and the Government can adopt a more aggressive policy in regard to public buildings. We can rent buildings, and probably will continue to do so, at least for the present.


Robert Milton Johnson: Reference has been made-and I cannot refrain from repeating it-to the comparative insignificance of the grant to the Prairie provinces for public works, and I could not help but wonder if that was a continuation of the policy from which those three provinces have been suffering for a number of years. We have not been asking for much in the West in the way of public facilities and public works. I rose to point out that unless the Western provinces are granted the measure of relief for which they have been struggling so hard for the past few years, they might just as well eliminate themselves, because they have not been given anything.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I would
like to point out to my hon. friend from Moosejaw (Mr. Johnson) and the gentleman who preceded him, that all these votes the committee are being asked to pass this evening are for repairs of existing buildings, and there is no way of measuring the necessities for repairs by the population of one portion of the country. I suppose it is true that in the older provinces,

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there being more towns and cities, there are more public buildings; consequently, the annual repairs would be larger than they would be in Saskatchewan, which, I think, has fewer towns and buildings than any of the older provinces.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dominion Public Buildings-improvements, repairs, etc	 $35,000 00
Vancouver post office, fittings,
electric wiring and elevator.. ..	5,500 00
Vancouver, H.C.M. Police Barracks
at Fairmont, improvements.. ..	4,000 00
Victoria post office improvements. 6,500 00 Victoria, old post office-taxes due
city for 1921	 1,019 77
Williams head quarantine station repairs and improvements to existing buildings, fittings, etc.. 7,500 00
Mr. TOLMIE:: Can the hon. minister
inform me as to the repairs made to the Victoria post office?


John Warwick King: The items are
as follows:-
New box installation equipment $6,500 Installation clearing house in
registry branch	 500
Installation of observation
gallery	 1,600
Contingencies	 400
Total		$9,000


Mr. McBRIDE:: I have heard a good
deal this evening about post offices. I was not asked to get much when I came down here. I was merely asked to gat four post offices, but I am not asking that 'to-night. If there is a place in British Columbia which needs a post office it is Kamloops. We need a building from several standpoints. We have in Kamloops no land or no forestry office accommodation, no telephone office, and several other branches of the Dominion government need accommodation. We should have a post office building there. Money was voted for it some years ago, and I do not see why that money should not be voted again, and, at least, a start made on it. The present post office is a menace to public health. It has been condemned twice by the health inspector of that district. Kamloops is in a central location. It is a distributing point for the North Thompson, for the southern portion of that district and for both east and west, and they have no facilities there for such business. I think it is up to the present minister to take action, and I would like to know what he intends doing with regard to the Kamloops post office.


John Warwick King: I do not think I have any further explanations to make in regard to post offices. I know that my hon. friend from Cariboo (Mr. McBride) has made representations previously to those he made in the House to-night, and, although we sympathize with him, and the conditions in some parts of the constituency which he represents and the necessity for better buildings, still the conditions must be applicable to British Columbia at this time, as well as to the other provinces.


Mr. LADNER:: I should like to ask the minister for two or three post offices for Vancouver South or Vancouver, but we are most interested in a dry dock out there.


William Duff: Cannot get it-nothing
doing.


Leon Johnson Ladner: Did the hon. gentleman say there was something doing?


William Duff: No.


Leon Johnson Ladner: I have been looking
through the estimates for some clue or suspicion that perhaps the minister has given the matter consideration. The minister should know that an anxious public awaits the fatal word which may fall from his lips and messages by wire of one kind or another have permeated to and from the coast. Some tell us that a dry dock will be built at Victoria, others say one will be built at Vancouver, and still others say a dry dock will be built at neither place. I think it will be an appropriate occasion at nearly the eleventh hour-having regard to the clock-that we should have from the minister some information as to whether the project of a dry dock at Vancouver will receive some encouragement in the way of an appropriation during the coming year.


John Warwick King: I think we will confine ourselves to the estimates for public buildings. Later on, when we reach capital expenditure, the question might be considered.


Thomas George McBride: I am not quite satisfied with the minister's answer. We have out there a large number of idle men, and Kamloops has not been asking the Dominion government, or any other body, for assistance to give the idle men employment. I think the least this House can do is to revote the amount that was voted to do the excavating and to put in the foundation of that post office at Kamloops, this spring, which will give the men some employment. A large number of them are returned men.

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who are out of work and who have been living there from hand to mouth. Many of them went there for their health, and I think as little as this House or this Government can do is to revote what was voted some years ago in order, at least, that the excavating may be. done and the foundation put in. I trust the minister can see his way to have that done.


William Stevens Fielding: I think, on the question of buildings generally, I ought, in fairness to my colleague the Minister of Public Works (Mr. King), to take more than a fair share of the responsibility. He is a kindly disposed new member, and I believe he would like to yield to the many requests made for new buildings; but ever since he came here, indeed, almost before he came, I have been preaching to him, warning him against putting into the estimates items for new public buildings. If there is anything in which we can afford to economize this year, it is along that line. I am not referring to any particular building; but I have taken the responsibility of urging all my colleagues along certain lines of economy, and particularly I have asked the Minister of Public Works to resist the applications, many and urgent, for the construction of new public buildings. If that is a bad policy, do not blame the Minister of Public Works entirely for it. I am largely responsible for it.


Hugh Guthrie: There is a small item of $1,000 odd for taxes. How does that item arise? Is this not government property?


John Warwick King: I am advised that this is an old post office property which the Government rents, and this is an item that has been appearing in the estimates for years. I thought probably it was a local improvement tax. I know there are local improvement taxes which the Government have from time to time, consented to pay in the province.


Hugh Guthrie: This is a local improvement tax, I understand?


John Warwick King: It is a general tax.


Hugh Guthrie: The Crown is not supposed to be taxed for general purposes.


George Perry Graham: The building is rented to people for stores.


Hugh Guthrie: In Ontario, and in,
perhaps, a number of other provinces, cer-

tain local taxes appear in the larger cities and towns and are imposed upon the principle of so much per front foot. We have, in a number of western Ontario cities, under the authority of our municipal law a tax known as the garbage tax. This is assessed on all the streets of the cities and towns; but when you come to government property, the Government refuses to pay the tax, and I think the refusal is very improper. This tax amounts to a good deal in some of our smaller cities, and complaints have been made in St. Thomas, Galt, Kitchener, Guelph, Stratford anu other places. A city council, for instance, divides up the tax over the different lots on the main street, and everybody on that street is taxed so much per front foot for the collection of garbage. When you come to government property, the waste paper and ashes are thrown out and the city garbage man takes them away; but when the bill comes in, the Government has made it a rule to refuse payment. The Government will pay for local improvement, for city water; but when the question is one of collection of garbage, it makes a distinction and refuses payment. This is most unfair; it means that people who are on a street on which there is government property-and sometimes the government property covers a large block *-have to pay so much more than they should have by reason of the refusal of the Government to pay this tax. The minister should take this matter into serious consideration.


William Duff: Is that a new tax? When was the law put into force?


Hugh Guthrie: We have had it in Oi>
tario for some years.


William Duff: Why did the old government not fix the matter?


Hugh Guthrie: Payment has always
been refused.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It will be news for members from New Brunswick to learn that Crown property in the Dominion pays any taxes at all. At all events, I never heard of any in the province of New Brunswick paying any local improvement taxes.


Hugh Guthrie: This is a general tax.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I understood the minister to say that this Crown property in Ontario paid some local improvement tax. I venture to say that the Dominion Government own half a million dollars worth of

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property in my city, and it has not paid one dollar of municipal taxation or local improvement taxes or anything else from the beginning of. time. If the Government property pays taxes in Ontario, then I think the Dominion government should, in' all fairness and justice, contribute something towards the municipal burden of keeping up sidewalks in front of its property. It does not even do that in New Brunswick. To what extent is that practice prevalent?


George Perry Graham: As I understand the
garbage tax in Ontario, the Government has refused to pay the garbage tax which was very high on its large blocks; but it gets no service from the municipal garbage collector. It looks after the collection of garbage and pays for that. Consequently, it pays no taxes when it does the work.
As regards Government property, the Government is not a landlord; it is not going into the landlord business. When it has property which it leases to some other person, as that other person, if he were on other property, would pay taxes, the Government, under those circumstances, acts like any other landlord and pays the taxes. When, however, the property is used by the Government for Government purposes, it does not pay taxes.


Mr. STORK:: In reference to the post
office situation, if there is anything in the way of precedent in the matter of getting your order in early or of having some justification for your claim, I wish to state that Prince Rupert has been on the map for fifteen years, and it very urgently requires a post office. We have heard a good deal of criticism to-night against the minister for his failure to provide post offices. When the proper time comes, we shall be on deck with our demand for a post office; but I wish to pay a little tribute to the minister. We have had, in Prince Rupert, under the system started some years ago, a very extravagant system of rentals. We have had in that city a federal building housing the post office and the customs department, and various other buildings, for which the Government has paid an annual rental of $11,100 a year. The minister, I understand, has a proposition before him to remove these offices to other premises at a rental of $6,540 a year, and that, I think, is a step in the right direction. The Government is practising economy; it is practising economy in the right direction as regards Prince Rupert. We approve that at present; but when the proper time arrives,
Prince Rupert will be on deck for a post office of its own.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I was much interested in a statement made by the Minister of Militia (Mr. Graham) that, if the Government owns property and rents it to someone else, it invariably pays the tax. The matter has not worked out in that way in my province. As regards soldier settlement farms, farms that have been salvaged from the original settler by the Government and rented to a private individual, the Government is possibly getting a larger revenue from the private farmer than from the soldier settler, and yet it has refused to pay the taxes, even the school tax. This is crippling quite badly school districts in my immediate part of New Brunswick. Perhaps I may be out of order; and if I am, I presume the proper time to discuss this matter will be when the committee's report on Soldiers Civil Re-establishment is before the House. I want however an opportunity of hearing the minister's statement, in regard to the Government paying taxes, and then I shall be pleased to follow it up to see that we get some of these taxes.


George Perry Graham: It should be understood by all members that the Minister of Public Works is not responsible for the erection of buildings. Consequently, criticism should be directed against all the rest of us in the other departments for whom the Public Works erects buildings or rents them, because we really are responsible, and the Public Works Department is merely the agent for providing us with that accommodation.


Alan Webster Neill: I wish to add my little wail to the complaints that have already gone up in connection with post offices. I will spare the minister getting on his feet to give us the usual excuse, for the department has already turned down my request for the only post office I wanted, the claims for which were so great as to make the claims of Kamloops, Prince Rupert, Victoria and Vancouver shrink into absolute insignificance. I will not weary the committee with details, because I am sure they will take my word for it. I was going to suggest, in view of the statement made by the Minister of Finance, that he with the Minister of Public Works should form a roster, so to speak, and begin it to-night, of those post offices in British Columbia which were to get attention next year, and in order to prevent any disagreement among hon. members I would suggest that the list

Supply-Public Works

be made alphabetical in its character; the post office I want is Courtney.
I was somewhat struck by the modest violet-like innocence of my friends from Vancouver and Victoria when they sought to criticize this vote and, like Oliver Twist, asked for more. I find some $59,000 in this vote, every cent of which will be spent in the constituencies of Victoria and Vancouver from which my hon. friends come. I would remind the Government and particularly the Minister of Public Works, that there are places in British Columbia outside the confines of those municipalities, incredible as it may appear from looking at the public accounts of the last five or six years. I am almost compelled to think that the right hon. leader of the Opposition is a man of far vision and sympathetic touch, for I heard him to-night in the House, unsolicited by anybody from British Columbia, tell one of the Cabinet ministers that in his opinion British Columbia always got the cold shoulder from this Government-an opinion which I very heartily share in, as I think do some other members. I hope the Government will take that into consideration when some of the other public works estimates come down, of a more important character perhaps. I wished to refer to another item but I have forgotten it. I do not suppose it will materially advance the interests of the post office, and probably the House will be glad to be spared any details.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I should like to tell the hon. gentleman who has just taken his seat that I did not criticize the vote for Victoria. I may have thought a little about it, but I did not say anything. All I wanted was some information about how the money was to he spent.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Progress reported.

[Stage Direction]
A message from His Excellency the Governor General transmitting Supplementary Estimates for the year ending March 31, 1922, was presented by Hon. W. S. Fielding (Minister of Finance), read by Mr. Speaker to the House, and referred to the Committee of Supply.
On motion of Mr. Fielding the House adjourned at 11.10 p.m.
Friday, April 28, 1922