1921-04-15

[Stage Direction]
Mr. HENDERS presented the first report of the Select Standing Committee on Agriculture and Colonization.

[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Right Hon. Arthur Meighen (Prime Minister) the name of Mr. Chisholm was substituted for that of Mr. Lemieux on the special committee appointed to inquire into the future fuel supply of Canada.
MONDAYS FOR GOVERNMENT x	BUSINESS
["I will make myself\nunderstood, and perhaps I can illustrate my\nmeaning best by a reference to the Bill standing in the hon. gentleman's own name. That Bill was called last Monday but he was not here to go on with it. I have suggested that the Government should allow one more Monday and then take the Mondays after that as Government days, but I have now amended the suggestion to read that two more Mondays shall be allowed to private members and that the Government take Mondays beginning on May 2.\nMotion as amended agreed to."]
Right Hon. Mr. MEIGHEN moved:: That on Monday, April 25, and all subsequent Mondays to the end of the Session, Government Notices of Motions and Government Orders shall have precedence over all business except Private Bills, Questions by Members and Notices of Motions for the Pro duction of Papers.


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: The suggestion is that the Government take Mondays for government business on and after Apri' 25. That leaves but very little time tc private members.


Arthur Meighen: Just one more Monday.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: If the Government would consider extending the proposed period I think it would meet the convenience of members of the House.


Arthur Meighen: I made inquiry and I find that we are later than usual in the taking of Monday when we defer it until April 25-that is to say a longer period than is usual has elapsed since the opening of the session before doing this. However,
I do not want to press the matter against any substantial opinion of private members on either side of the House. It will be recalled that last Monday, although it was private members' day-and the same occurred on at least one previous occasion -we reached Government Orders and spent some time on them. So I thought it was not too much to ask that after April 18, the Government take Mondays.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: On Monday next the Referendum will be taken in Ontario and I think a large number of mem-

bers will be absent. That might make a little difference in the consideration of the subject.


Arthur Meighen: I would be prepared to alter the motion and take next Monday, and give private members the Monday following if that would be agreeable. Then hon. gentlemen would have more time and nobody would be hurt.


Hon. H. S. BELAND (Beauce):: My impression is that Public Bills and Orders have been reached only once this session, that was last Monday. Looking over the Order Paper I find a large number of Bills inscribed there for second reading. None of these Public Bills with the exception of one, have reached the stage past second reading although there are amongst them some very important measures. Unless Monday is retained for a while longer there is no probability that Public Bills will ever be reached. As this is the only day in the week that private members have I would suggest that at least the three next Mondays be retained for their exclusive use. Of course, if private members do not desire or do not wish to avail themselves of the opportunity of discussing their own measures or motions, then the Government is welcome to proceed with its own Orders. I am going to introduce a Bill myself in a few minutes which I consider important unless the Government is willing to make it a government measure. In that case it will be a different matter altogether.


Mr. C. A. GAUVREAU (Temiscouata) :: There are only nine private bills on the Order Paper and they mostly consist of Divorce Bills from the Senate.


Arthur Meighen: The Government could
not agree to allowing three more Mondays. I would like to sound the general opinion of the House on the matter. I think it is a fair proposal that we shall not take next Monday as so many members from the province of Ontario will be absent. If it is satisfactory I would be prepared to allow two more Mondays for private members, and then take the next.


Mr. CALDWELL:: Down here we have
not been able to hear a word that has been said at the other end of the Chamber. I have a Bill on the Order Paper and I would like to know whether -it will be affected or not by the Government's decision?	.


Arthur Meighen: I will make myself
understood, and perhaps I can illustrate my
meaning best by a reference to the Bill standing in the hon. gentleman's own name. That Bill was called last Monday but he was not here to go on with it. I have suggested that the Government should allow one more Monday and then take the Mondays after that as Government days, but I have now amended the suggestion to read that two more Mondays shall be allowed to private members and that the Government take Mondays beginning on May 2.
Motion as amended agreed to.



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Returns showing the total number of persons in the employ of the Dominion Government, including both the inside and the outside service but not including the Canadian National Railways; number of persons in the employ of the Canadian National Railways.-Sir Henry Drayton.
Correspondence relative to the Franco-Canadian Commercial Agreement 1921.- Sir George Foster.

Mr. JOSEPH ARCHAMBAULT (Cham-bly and Vercheres) :: I beg leave to introduce Bill No. 76 to amend the Criminal Code.


Arthur Meighen: Explain.


Joseph Archambault: The Bill relates
to the publication of defamatory libels in judicial proceedings. Its purpose is to amend section 320 of the Criminal Code. That section reads as follows:
No one commits an offence by publishing any defamatory matter, in any proceeding held before or under the authority of any court exercising judicial authority, or in any inquiry made under the authority of any statute or by order of His Majesty, or of any of the Departments of Government, Dominion or provincial.
My intention to add the following words after this section.
Provided he also publishes at the same time any facts, extenuating circumstances or argument, which the person likely to he injured by such defamatory matter is entitled to set up before such court or at such enquiry.
As the law now reads great damage and injury may be done without possible redress. An individual can lay a complaint before the court and adduce his evidence, and the accused may find it necessary to ask for an adjournment, in which case the evidence goes to the public without his defence being published. I might say that

an hon. member only a few days ago was greatly injured by such publication. The purpose of the Bill is to prevent the publication of such damaging evidence unaccompanied by the defence or facts that the accused may be entitled to set up.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. H. S. BELAND (Beauce) moved for leave to introduce a Bill to amend the Maple Products Act, 1920.
Mr. McMASTER:: Explain.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Mr. Speaker, the law as it stands to-day permits the use of the word "maple" only in reference to those articles of food which are composed wholly of pure maple sugar or maple syrup. The present Bill is not a restrictive measure, it is rather designed to facilitate the sale and purchase of maple products, but as the present law precludes the use of the word "maple" in conjunction with other words, the House will readily see that an article of food containing a proportion of maple sugar or maple syrup cannot be so designated. The experience of the working of this measure during the past year has been that the new law constitutes a hindrance to the easy marketing of the pure article. If I read to the House the main paragraph of the proposed amendment its purpose will be readily appreciated. It is in this form:
The word "maple" may be used in combination with other word or words or letter or letters on the label or other mark, illustration or device, on a package containing any article of food resembling or being an imitation of or being a compound of maple sugar or maple syrup and other substances; and in such cases the exact proportion of maple sugar or maple syrup in such articles shall be clearly indicated on the package.
It will be seen that the makers of maple sugar and maple syrup will be amply protected. The simple indication that the article is composed of maple sugar or maple syrup makes it obligatory that such article shall be pure; and if an article of food is manufactured, containing maple sugar or syrup it is made clear under the amendment that the exact proportion shall be definitely described on the container. I think this will explain the full purpose of the proposed amendment.


Mr. ROBB:: Before the hon. member-


Mr. SPEAKER:: Order. I am inclined to think the hon. member for Beauce is not

entitled under Rule No. 50 to introduce this Bill. The rule is as follows:
No Bill relating to trade, or the alteration of the laws concerning trade, is to be brought into this House until the proposition shall have been first considered in, a committee of the whole House, and agreed unto by the House.
In other words, this is a trade bill, and therefore it is not competent for the hon. member to introduce it unless it is preceded by a resolution. Under the circumstances, I think the only course to pursue would be to allow the Order to stand until Monday, and if upon further inquiry it transpires that such Bill is prima facie what it purports to be, then the hon. member will be able to introduce a resolution and proceed according to the rule.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Under what heading of the Order Paper could a resolution of this kind be introduced by a private member?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: He would have to put his notice upon the Order Paper and the resolution would be reached in the ordinary course.
Motion stands.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, my right hon. friend the Prime Minister (Mr. Meighen) has intimated that the Government proposes shortly to take every day for public business. May I ask him if the House has now before it all the legislation which the Government proposes to "bring down this session?


Arthur Meighen: The legislation on the Order Paper now, while covering quite a number of subjects, cannot yet be said to be complete. In view of the conclusion of the period, of arbitration in connection with acquisition of the Grand Trunk railway without a determination of the proceedings, it is not improbable that legislation relating thereto will be necessary. Also, there may be other legislation, but I could not even intimate the likelihood of it, nor the subject, until, at the earliest, the first part of next week.
THE BUDGET On the Orders of the Day:


William Lyon Mackenzie King: May I ask the hon.

Minister of Finance (Sir Henry Drayton) if he is in a position now to intimate when we may expect the Budget?


Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: I have hopes, Mr. Speaker, of being able to bring down the Budget at a comparatively early date.


Mr. LAPOINTE:: Comparatively!



INTERNATIONAL TRADE CONFERENCE

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On the Orders of the Day:
James Alexander Robb: (Chateauguay-Huntingdon): May I again direct the attention of the right hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster) to a question that I asked a few days ago, relating to an International Trade Conference to be held in New York, as to whether Canada will be among the thirty nations that are to be represented?


Right Hon. SIR GEORGE FOSTER (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: With reference to the trade Convention in New York in May next, the Government has received no official notice of or invitation thereto, and its only knowledge of the same is* gleaned from references in the press. From these it would appear that three or four thousand manufacturers of -the United States are expected to attend and confer with the commercial and diplomatic representatives of foreign nations with a view of establishing and stimulating reciprocal world trade.
The object appears to be to gain from the representatives of the European nations particularly what possible methods could be pursued to meet the needs of Europe in respect of bases of credit to enable the resumption of inter-dependent commerce and rehabilitate the productive and consumptive powers of these countries. Whilst financial interests have busied themselves with these problems for some time, it is felt that the accordant co-operation of the manufacturers of the country is necessary to the best solution of the problem. The Conference, I understand, has been arranged by the National Association of Manufacturers.



BY-ELECTIONS

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On the Orders of the Day:
Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I noticed an article in yesterday's morning paper stating that a writ had been issued for the by-election in York-
Sunbury and that the election would take place on the 28th of May. Is this authentic?


Arthur Meighen: Yes, that is authentic.


Mr. CRERAR:: When will the writs be issued for the Medicine Hat by-election?


Arthur Meighen: I will have to give the same answer as before. The Government acts by Order in Council; when the Order in Council issues it will be made known.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The Order in Council mill is not working just now.


Arthur Meighen: Only on necessary matters.


Mr. FIELDING:: May I ask the Prime Minister whether it would be inconvenient for him to give an explanation why the other writs are not issued too?


Arthur Meighen: It would not be at all inconvenient were it necessary. The fact is that these two, if I remember rightly, were the first vacant.


James Alexander Robb: In view of the answer given by the Prime Minister is it his opinion that it is not necessary that these other constituencies should be represented in Parliament?


Arthur Meighen: It is not necessary that any explanation be given. Parliament has given the Government the discretion of a certain limit. The Government does not need to make an explanation as to the exercise of its discretion until that discretion is exercised.



CANADIAN NATIONALS DEFINITION ACT

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On motion of Hon. Hugh Guthrie (Acting Solicitor General), Bill No. 17, to define Canadian Nationals and to provide for the renunciation of Canadian Nationality was read the third time and passed.

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On motion of Hon. Hugh Guthrie (Acting Solicitor General) Bill No. 39, to amend the statutes relating to corrupt practices at elections, was read the third time and passed.

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Hon. HUGH GUTHRIE (Acting Solicitor General) moved the third reading of Bill No. 60, to Amend the Judges' Act.
Mr. A. B. COPP:: (Westmoreland): This Bill does very grave injustice to one member at least, if not two members, of the judiciary of New Brunswick who do not reside in either St. John or Fredericton and who are obliged to attend chambers and sittings of the court in those cities. Under this Bill they will not be allowed travelling expenses in going to and from these places. When a sitting of the court is	held	in Moncton the
judges residing at St. John and at Fredericton who go to Moncton to hold court will be allowed travelling expenses, while a similar privilege will not be granted to those judges residing in Moncton and Sussex who have to go to St. John or Fredericton. I do not think the Minister of Justice (Mr. Doherty) really understood the situation or he would have made an exception in this matter. If he realized the great injustice which the Bill does to the gentlemen of whom I speak. I am sure that he would amend it accordingly. I would ask the Prime Minister to let the third reading of the Bill stand until such time as I can have a conference with the Minister of Justice, who is not now in his place.


Arthur Meighen: The Bill is in charge of the Acting Solicitor General, who is present.
1	do not know myself why it should stand. Motion agreed to, and Bill read the third
time and passed.



FRENCH TREATY.

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Sir GEORGE FOSTER (Minister of Trade and Commerce) moved the third reading of Bill No. 61, respecting a certain trade agreement between His Majesty and the President of the French Republic.
William Stevens Fielding: During the discussion last evening the member for Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) asked how the list of additional items included in this arrangement had bene prepared. I am curious, as he was, to know how that schedule was prepared/


George Eulas Foster: I gave the
answer last night, but I do not mind repeating it. The items included in schedule
2	are items which are gained over and above any that had appeared in schedule A, which were liable only to the minimum duty. We received all of those in schedule A with the exception of twelve and that formed schedule 1 of the present Bill. Schedule 2 is therefore made up of items additional to any that appeared in the

schedules before, and to these items are given either minimum treatment or the percentage of rebate or preference. This list of articles was made up, as I said last night, as the result of my own experience of the last twenty or thirty years, of my own knowledge of these matters, or representations that were made to me, and of consultations with persons engaged in these businesses or trades. With that information I got as large a number of items as possible added to schedule 2.


William Stevens Fielding: It is to be presumed,
I suppose, that they are articles which we might have some prospect of selling?


George Eulas Foster: Oh, yes. Some of them are really important.


William Stevens Fielding: I have already pointed out that the most important item in it is put in as a new thing whereas in reality it is in the existing French treaty-agricultural implements.


George Eulas Foster: There is a
difference between the two, although it is difficult to make the distinction here. In schedule A it is agricultural machinery, motors not included; in this it is agricultural machinery without that limitation*


Ernest Lapointe: My right hon. friend
said last night in answer to the hon. member for maisonneuve (Mr. Lemieux) that he would bring down all the correspondence before the third reading.
Sir GEORGiE FOSTER: I have laid it on the Table.


William Stevens Fielding: In printed form?


George Eulas Foster: No.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. J. D. Reid (Minister of Railways and Canals) Bill No. 71, to authorize an extension of time for the completion of the St. John and Quebec railway between Centreville, in the county of Car-leton, and Andover, in the county of Victoria, N.B., was read the second time, and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
On section 1-time for construction of line extended.
Mr. SINCLAIR (Guysborough):: Has
the minister made any investigation as to

the probable traffic on this road after it is completed? I understood him to say the other day that, when the road was constructed it would be taken over for operation as part of the Canadian Government Railway system and that the Provincial Government that is building the road would he entitled to forty per cent of the gross proceeds as its share of the revenue and the Dominion Government would be entitled to the balance. As I understand the arrangement, the Dominion Government are to undertake the task of operating this railway. I should like to know from the minister if, in his opinion, there is a chance of this road being a profitable one to the Government ralway system.


Hon. Mr. REID:: The agreement with the New Brunswick Government in connection with the operation of this railway was this: The construction of the road was divided into three sections: (a) a railway from Andover, in the county of Victoria, to Centreville, in the county of Carleton, not exceeding twenty-six miles. That part has not been constructed, (b) A railway from Centreville to Gagetown in the county of Queen's, not exceeding one hundred and twenty miles. That part has been completed. (c) A railway from a point at or near Gagetown to a point on the Canadian Pacific railway at or near Westfield in the county of King's, not exceeding forty-five miles. That part has been constructed. In other words, one hundred and sixty-five miles have been constructed and taken over in accordance with the agreement, and that part is being operated by the Canadian National Railways. Nothing has been done in connection with the other portion yet. If the New Brunswick Government should construct it, of course, it would be taken over and operated in the same way as the other.
The information that I have is this: The gross earnings from the two sections that have been completed and taken over were, for the twelve months ended December 31, 1920, $218,127.54; the operating expenses on those two sections for the twelve months ended December 31, 1920, were $564,143.03, leaving an operating deficit of $346,015.49. The above is exclusive of forty per cent of gross earnings payable as rental, amounting to $87,251.01. The hon. member will see that there is a very large operating deficit, and from the information that I have at the present time the deficit in the operation of the road will be very heavy for some
time. This road was built to connect with the Transcontinental running into St. John, making a short line instead of going around by Moncton. It makes the distance a great deal shorter. Whether business will increase as years go by sufficiently to wipe out that operating defiicit, I am not in a position to say.


John Howard Sinclair: What
is the total cost of that part of the road which was in operation during 1920?


John Dowsley Reid: I am sorry that I have not that information here. It is in Hansard of a year or so ago. If the hon. gentleman wants that information or any other information in that connection, either I can send it to him, or I would have to let the Bill stand. This is merely an extension of time for the construction of that part of the line which has not yet been constructed.


John Howard Sinclair: Perhaps the minister can tell us whether this arrangement was profitable to the New Brunswick Government or not.


John Dowsley Reid: As I understand the matter, the Provincial Government, even with the share that they get, will lose very heavily-$200,000 or $250,000. The amount they get for their share will not pay the interest on the cost by a very large sum. I am only trusting to my memory as regards the $250,000.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I think it is $220,000.


John Dowsley Reid: I thank the hon. gentleman for the information. That is the situation. The Provincial Government loses $220,000, and we lose the amount I have stated.


John Howard Sinclair: Is the minister prepared to make a similar arrangement with the other provinces?


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I think I can throw some light on the cause of the deficit, both to the province and to the Dominion Government, through this road. When it was first proposed to build this road, as the minister said, it was proposed to build it from St. John to Grand Fails to connect with the Grand Trunk Pacific at Grand Falls, being a short line giving an outlet to the sea through St. John instead of via Moncton. The fact that the section from Andover to Centreville has not been completed and that connection has not been made with the Grand Trunk Pacific is the cause of the deficit largely,

although there may be other contributing causes. The only freight is that which originates on this line, which is to-day only a branch line, whereas it should be part of a through system carrying freight to and from the seaboard. If this short section was completed, or better, if the road was completed on to Grand Palls-if it is not extended to Grand Falls, you will probably have to run from Andover to Grand Falls over the Canadian Pacific-and if a connection was made with the Transcontinental at or near Grand Falls a large quantity of through freight would go over this road to the seaboard and this would no doubt pay, not only the operating expenses of the road to the Dominion, but enough revenue to pay the interest on the bonds out of the forty per cent that goes to the New Brunswick Government as the builder of the road.
I would also like to see the Minister of Railways include, in the arrangement for the subsidy for the building of this road, a subsidy for the building of the connecting link between the St. John and Quebec railway and the Maine Central. Last year a delegation, met the Minister of Railways in Ottawa in order to take this matter up with him. I took the matter up with the minister after the House met this session, and I was told by him that owing to the present railway situation, it was doubtful if any extension work would be done this year. I fully realize the difficulty of carrying on extension work this year under present conditions; but I hope the time will come in the near future when this can be done, and this will make the whole of the Canadian Government Railway system in Eastern Canada a better paying system than it is to-day, from the fact that three-quarters of the freight that originates in eastern Quebec and the Maritime Provinces at the present time is destined for the United States. The Canadian Government system of railways in the Maritime Provinces has no connection with the Maine Central, which is our only outlet to the United States. The Canadian Pacific is the connecting link between the Canadian Government system at St. John and the Maine Central at Vance-boro. What we pay in the course of ten years in excess freight to the Canadian Pacific on this connecting link between St. John and Vanceboro would possibly pay for building the connecting link between the St. John and Quebec railway and the Maine Central which is only 22 miles long and is estimated to cost $1,000,000. We would then have a connecting link of our own to 
the United States. For these reasons, I would strongly urge upon the committee the advisability of the extension proposed by the Minister of Railways in this Bill before the House. It will make it possible for the road to pay not only running expenses but the interest on the bonds as well.


John Howard Sinclair: My pur. pose in asking questions was not to oppose the Bill at all, but to try and ascertain whether there was any prospect of the road earning money. I would like to ask the minister whether if any other of the Maritime Provinces makes a proposal to him for the building of a branch line, he would give the same concession with regard to the 40 per cent as he has given in the case of New Brunswick?


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Before the minister answers that, I should like to make clear that this is not a branch line. It is the completion of a connecting link between the Intercolonial at St. John and the Grand Trunk Pacific at Grand Falls. Until that is completed, there will be a deficit on the road every year, and I think there is no doubt in the mind of anybody who knows the situation that when the connecting link is completed, not only will the line that it is proposed to build pay, but it will make the whole system there a paying proposition.


John Dowsley Reid: My hon. friend is right. This is intended as a connecting link with the Transcontinental. Therefore, it is altogether likely that the Provincial Government will at some future time construct the connecting link, and it will become a part of the Transcontinental system.
Answering the question of my hon. friend from Guysborough, this arrangement was made a number of years ago. As to any future arrangements, each case would have to be considered on its merits. At the present time I would not recommend the construction of any more railways in Canada, because I think we have enough already.


Mr. EULER:: I heard my hon. friend from Victoria and Carleton refer to a bonus this Government has to pay, or has paid. I am opposed to bonussing, and I understood the Government has declared against bonussing railways any longer. Would the minister tell us something about this bonus?


John Dowsley Reid: Under the arrangement that was made many years ago, this

road received a subsidy from the Dominion Government.


William Daum Euler: There is nothing more to be paid?


John Dowsley Reid: The subsidies have all been paid as the work progressed. When the Canadian Government Railways took over the road, the arrangement was that the province would get 60 per cent of the earnings to pay the interest on the bonds that had been issued for the construction of the railway, and the railway received the other 40 per cent for the cost of operation. That 60 per cent has not proved sufficient to pay the bond interest, which is now $220,000 short.


William Daum Euler: That, then, is the loss the Government will sustain? It is only a question of the original subsidy.


John Dowsley Reid: Oh, no.


Mr. CAHILL:: Will not the construction of this line divert a certain amount of traffic from the Transcontinental from Grand Falls to St. John? The hon. member for Victoria and Carleton stated that the road would be able to carry itself if this extension were built, but I would think it would result in traffic being diverted from the Transcontinental, and would therefore not be an advantage to the Canadian National Railways.


John Dowsley Reid: Of course, the hon.
member knows the country down there much better than I do, I have never been down there. But as I understand the situation, we go from a place called McGivney Junction through to St. John. If this portion were built to Grand Falls it would make the distance shorter than it is from McGivney Junction. We can to-day get to Grand Falls, because we have running rights over the Canadian Pacific. In my judgment, it would be better to do something of that kind rather than parallel another twenty to twenty-five miles of railway. We have a connection now with St. John from McGivney Junction, and we are handling a certain amount of Transcontinental traffic now. It was expected at that time that there would be a lot of traffic from the West that would go through to St. John which would give earnings sufficient to pay not only the operating expenses but the interest on the bonds, but that has not been the case.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I might say in answer to my hon. friend from Pontiac (Mr. Cahill) that any freight which
is now diverted from the Grand Trunk Pacific to St. John goes over the Canadian Pacific, so the Canadian National Railways would gain by having their own line to connect with the Grand Trunk Pacific, instead of passing the traffic over to the Canadian Pacific.


Frank S. Cahill: Is it the opinion of my
hon. friend that the Transcontinental or the Canadian National Railway should parallel any other line in a territory where there is not sufficient traffic for both?


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I might say, in the
first place, that it is not proposed that the Dominion Government build this road. The province will build it, aided by a subsidy from the Dominion Government. The St. John and Quebec railway does not parallel the Canadian Pacific. They come together at Westfield, ten miles out of St. John, and come close together again at Andover. Between Andover and Westfield the territory is well calculated to furnish traffic for both roads. In fact, the proposed route of the St. John and Quebec Railway is through one of the richest farming sections in Eastern Canada, a section absolutely without railway facilities at the present time. This road will not parallel the Canadian Pacific line in any place.


Frank S. Cahill: Has the minister an
undertaking with the present owners of this railway that when completed the Government will operate it on the same basis that they are now operating the other portion? Does the minister expect a further loss in operation on that account?


John Dowsley Reid: The original agreement includes this part that is to be constructed. Under the agreement, if the Provincial Government decided to construct the 26 miles, the Canadian National Railways will have to operate it, and the result would be a loss. For that reason, I think the Government will hesitate to proceed for a time at least.


William Stevens Fielding: Is it a perpetual
agreement, or for a term of years only ?


John Dowsley Reid: It is for a long time.


William Stevens Fielding: Is it perpetual?


John Dowsley Reid: I understand that it is perpetual.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Would not the loss be smaller proportionately if this link were completed? The large contributing factor to the deficit at the present time is the fact that the road does not run to Andover and



connect with the other road at Grand Falls. I know the country very well, and it is contended by everybody that the road cannot pay, stopping where it does at the present time, because it does not tap the best part of the country to get freight.


John Dowsley Reid: I have not recently discussed the subject with any of the officials, but some years ago I took the matter up and was informed that the local earnings would not warrant the building of this portion of the road, for the reason that the Canadian Pacific railway runs from Andover, and this road if built would be paralleling it for some twenty miles at least.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I do not think so.


John Dowsley Reid: Of course, I am only
speaking from memory on that point. At any rate, I was led to believe that it would not be wise at present to proceed with the construction of that portion. However, that is a question that may be taken up in the future when we know the results of the operation of the 160 miles that we have.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: Three surveys have
been made of routes for this proposed road, and one route would parallel the Canadian Pacific railway, the two being on opposite sides of the St. John river. That route, however, was not considered seriously. The western route was taken, and it was considered advisable because it runs a considerable distance away from the Canadian Pacific line and passes through one of the finest sections of Eastern Canada, where a lot of freight would be available. I agree with the Minister of Railways that the local freight does not warrant the building of that portion of the road, but the fact that we would get a lot of through traffic which now goes to the Canadian Pacific Railway, and the great possibilities of development in that section, should be a sufficient reason for undertaking the construction. A firm has a charter to develop the electrical power at Grand Falls, the second-best water power in Canada, with a view to building extensive pulp and paper mills. That would provide a large amount of freight destined for the New England states and which would go over the proposed road.


Mr. ELKIN:: Unquestionably, the extension of this road from Centreville through should be made, and it has occurred to me several times that the minister might well consider the fact that he has had in previous Estimates quite heavy expenditures on the Canada Eastern bridge at Fredericton, 
which it was intended to rebuild and strengthen in order that the heavy traffic off the Grand Trunk Pacific might be diverted from St. John. It is a question his department might well look into, whether it would not pay to make the extension immediately on that line to Andover and through Grand Falls and pick up that freight there, bringing it over the Valley railroad, rather than spend money on the Canada Eastern bridge, on which many thousands of dollars have been expended.


William Stevens Fielding: The legislature of New Brunswick has this week passed a resolution calling on the Dominion Government to cancel the outstanding agreement and take over this road, and consolidate it with the Canadian National railways. Is not that a fact?


John Dowsley Reid: I did see something to
that effect in the newspapers, but I see nc reason why we should take over a liability of some $220,000 that was created by the province of New Brunswick and should cer tainly be borne by them.


Frank S. Cahill: Is there an understanding with the present owners that a subsidy will be paid on this line when constructed? If so, what amount has been agreed to?


John Dowsley Reid: The agreement calls
for $6,400 per mile.


William Daum Euler: In connection with that point, the minister must have misunderstood me or, I misunderstood him. I asked a few moments ago whether the Government had decided to discontinue the pay ment of subsidies, and I understood him to say that no more subsidies would be paid. As I understand now, if this line is constructed, the Government is committed to a payment of $6,400 per mile; and if this charter is not renewed, then the Government is relieved from any responsibility incurred in that connection when the original charter was granted. Now, I believe it is the ayowed policy of the Government not to grant further subsidies to railways. Are we to understand from the minister, if he is in favour of the renewal of this charter, that his object is merely to keep faith with the company in a matter agreed upon some years ago when the original charter was granted? Or are we to understand that the Government have reversed the policy they announced some time ago not to grant further subsidies to railways?


John Dowsley Reid: Probably I misunderstood the hon. member. If this
4 p.m. twenty-six miles of railway from Andover to Centreville are con-

structed, under the agreement we shall have to pay the $6,400 per mile. Although this railway is called the St. John and Quebec Railway, it really belongs to the Government of New Brunswick. They built it, put all the money into it, and are responsible for guaranteeing the bonds. The agreement was made practically between the provincial and the Dominion Governments, and I think it would be breaking faith with the province if we refused to extend the charter. There are many reasons why they were not able to proceed with the construction even though they desired to do so. Owing to the war and stress of financial conditions, the proposal had to hang fire, and I do not think it would be fair to the Provincial Government for us to refuse the charter. Their request came to us through the manager- of the road, whose letter I have. It is dated Fredericton, New Brunswick, March 23, and reads:
I am instructed by the hon. Premier Foster, of New Brunswick, and also by the St, John and Quebec Railway Company, to apply to Parliament for an extension of time within which the St. John and Quebec Railway Company may complete construction of its line of railway from Centreville to Andover, until December 31, 1923. This matter is now covered by Act EX, of X George V, chapter 31, and the time expires on December 31, 1921. Similar legislation is being enacted by the province. Will you please advise me whether this will be put through Parliament this season? And oblige,
Tours truly,
W. B. Jones,
President, St. John and Quebec Railway Company.
In extending the time, we are merely keeping faith with the provincial Government.


William Daum Euler: This is not to be considered a precedent for the revival of the old practice of giving subsidies?


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: In connection with the question asked by my hon. friend (Mr. Euler), I think the province of New Brunswick would consider it a breach of faith if the Dominion Government refused to renew the subsidy for this portion of the road. I know for a fact that the province would not have undertaken to build that road without an agreement from the Dominion Government that they should receive a subsidy of $6,400 per mile for the *whole distance from St. John to Grand Falls.


William Daum Euler: When was this agreement made?


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: I do not know; the minister will be able to tell you. It was previous to the war. . At the time the
137-1*
agreement was entered into, I believe, the Dominion Government agreed to build a bridge across the river at Andover, another bridge across the St. John River, at or near Westville, and another bridge across the Kennebecasis, three very costly bridges on the line, as well as the subsidy of $6,400 per mile on the whole line from St. John to Grand Falls. When the war started, I believe largely due to representations made by the Dominion Government to the province of New Brunswick on account of the war being on, the stringency of the money market, the scarcity of labour, and so forth, the province could not provide for the building of this part of the road at that time which would have meant that the Dominion Government would be compelled to incur large obligations to construct these very costly bridges. The blame is therefore not to be laid on the province of New Brunswick alone for the non-completion of this road. It was generally understood, I am informed, between 'the Dominion Government and Government of New Brunswick that the former should assist towards the building of this road because of the difficulty in financing the undertaking at that time both for the Dominion and the Province, the Dominion then being under the obligation to build the three costly bridges to which I have alluded. Since that time I understand that the obligation by the Dominion to build these bridges has lapsed, and to avoid undertaking expenditures it is now proposed to get connection with the C.P.R. at Westfield Beach and Andover-to obtain running rights over that ten mile section of the Canadian Pacific between these points, and over another twenty mile section of the Canadian Pacific to Grand Falls. Under the circumstances the Dominion Government cannot do less than renew the agreement for subsidizing the twenty-six miles in question.


Frank S. Cahill: When was the lease made for the operation of this road?


John Dowsley Reid: I think ten or eleven years ago.


Frank S. Cahill: Was it a lease to operate?


John Dowsley Reid: When the agreement was made with the Province to construct the road it was provided that we were to operate it as part of the Intercolonial system.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to. Bill reported, and read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Hon. Hugh Guthrie (Acting Solicitor General) Bill No. 72 to Amend the Winding-up Act was read the second time and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
On Section 1-Liquidator to prepare statement of assets and debts.
Mr. GUTHRIE:: This Bill is really for statistical purposes. Under section 83 of the present Winding-up Act no time is fixed for- the liquidator to furnish a statement of assets and liabilities. Such is supposed to be almost the first work of a liquidator, but there is no time prescribed in the section as it now stands, and the proposed motion is to allow sixty days to liquidators to prepare a statement of assets, debts, and liabilities.


Mr. VIEN:: The section does not say whether the liquidator will have to address such statement to any of the parties concerned.


The CHAIRMAN:: It is in the second clause of the Bill.


Thomas Vien: The second clause only has reference to the Dominion Statistician. It does not mention the other interested parties. I think there might be an amendment providing for the sending of the statement to the other interested parties.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On Section 2-documents to be forwarded to Dominion Statistician.
Thomas Vien: I would suggest that the minister add a clause providing:
That the liquidator shall, promptly after receipt or preparation, mail to the Dominion Statistician, Bureau of Statistics, Ottawa, and to all the creditors or shareholders a true copy of the following document,

*
And so on.


Hugh Guthrie: The liquidator is under the jurisdiction of the court, and in liquidation proceedings, as my hon. friend knows, the court appoints one of its officers and gives direction tu the liquidator as to the winding up of the estate, prescribing what the liquidator shall do, how he shall do it and when he shall do it. I would not like to encumber this clause, which is purely for the purpose of statistical information with any additional requirements which so far are unknown to law.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to. Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
On the motion of right Hon. Sir George E. Foster (Minister of Trade and Commerce) Bill No. 75 concerning the Canadian Wheat Board was read the second time and the House went into Committee thereon, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
On section 1-powers of Wheat Board continued in order that unsettled business may be concluded:
Mr. REID (Mackenzie) :: Now I presume my question will be in order, Mr. Chairman. I would again ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce: What opportunity will the holders of outstanding participation tickets have to get them settled before this Wheat Board goes out of business?


George Eulas Foster: It is difficult
to answer that question with reference to some participation tickets that may never be heard of, but the operations of the Board, as my hon. friend knows, ceased at the beginning of the season, and from then up to the present time the work of the Board has been confined to the adjustment of accounts and the payment of the surplus that remained in their hands after the first moiety had been distributed. Every effort is made by the Board itself to call in every participation certificate, and notice now has been out for more than six months. One object-it may be a small part-of having the powers confirmed and continued for a time is to get in all these participation certificates if possible; the other, and main one at the present time, is for the collection of what is overdue and the adjustments that are necessary because of claims and counterclaims in reference thereto.


John Flaws Reid: Will due notice be given in the public press that the Wheat Board is to be wound up so that any parties doing business with it will have a chance to have their certificates settled?


George Eulas Foster: Oh, yes. Six
months ago the Board commenced distributing notices everywhere. I do not know the business of the Board, but from my conversation with Mr. Stewart three weeks ago I should think there are very few participation certificates outstanding that the Board ever expect to have presented, those certificates having been lost or burnt.


John Flaws Reid: I have no
fault to find with the Wheat Board; but of course a few disputes are always likely to arise, and so long as the parties inter-

ested are given a chance to settle their business with the Board it will be quite satisfactory. (


Thomas Vien: Why is it necessary that
in this Bill we should ratify and confirm all the Orders in Council enumerated? These Orders in Council, I presume, were duly passed, and it seems to me superfluous to ask for their ratification and confirmation.


George Eulas Foster: By those
Orders in Council the powers were conferred upon the Board to do its work, and if you want to continue the Board with its powers-and it must have all its powers because it has not yet finished its business, 

you have to confirm all those different Orders in Council by which those powers were conferred in the first place.


Thomas Vien: How much has the Wheat Board cost the country, and how much is it going to cost by this continuation? And how is that cost to be met?


George Eulas Foster: The Wheat Board has not cost, and will not have cost, the treasury a single cent when it shall have finished all its business. The whole cost of handling the wheat under the Board has amounted in the whole to a little less than a quarter of a cent per bushel upon the amount handled. The trade itself paid its way, and, as I said, there will probably be a small surplus when all accounts are adjusted.


Mr. CAMPBELL:: Is the report of this Board going to be printed-


George Eulas Foster: The report of the Board was laid on the table of the House shortly after the session opened.


John Archibald Campbell: The minister did not get my whole question. Is their report going to be printed for distribution?


George Eulas Foster: I do not know. The printing committee have that in charge.


Thomas Vien: Outside of settling the participation certificates, what unfinished business has the Board to deal with?


George Eulas Foster: The adjustment and collection of outstanding accounts.


Thomas Vien: How long does the Government propose to keep the Board in operation?


George Eulas Foster: Until it shall have finished its business.


Thomas Vien: I understand that. But how long does the Government anticipate it will take the Board to finish its business?


George Eulas Foster: I do not know, but from the conversation I had with the chairman of the Board I understand that less than three months from the first of March would see the end of the outstanding business. Of course, you can never tell -sometimes lawyers get mixed up with these claims.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, and read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. Sir Henry Drayton (Minister of Finance) the House went into committee to consider the following proposed resolution, Mr. Boivin in the Chair:
That it is expedient to provide that the time for the payment of the debentures amounting to two million dollars, issued by the Harbour Commissioners of Montreal to His Majesty under chapter ten of the statutes of 1896, entitled, "An Act respecting the Harbour Commissioners of Montreal," be extended to the first day of July, 1946 ; and that the time for the payment of the debentures amounting to two million dollars, issued by the said Commissioners to His Majesty under the authority of chapter forty-seven of the statutes of 1898, entitled "An Act to grant further aid to the Harbour Commissioners of Montreal," be extended to the first day of July, W51.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Will the minister explain why this extension is necessary?


Henry Lumley Drayton: The capital moneys required by the port of Montreal were supplied by the issue of these debentures. The Harbour Commission pays interest on the debentures, but the debt itself is of a permanent nature. It is proposed to extend to 1946 $2,000,000 of these debentures falling due this year, and to 1951 $2,000,000 falling due in four years' time. Of course, payment of the principal will no more be thought of on the dates mentioned than it is now, but this procedure is better for the Harbour Commission, who do not wish to show past-due liabilities on their books. The matter will be treated, as it now is, as a permanent investment.


William Stevens Fielding: This is really a loan to the harbour commissioners and for nominal security they deposit these debentures. Is it proposed to issue new debentures, or is it simply the extension of the old ones?


Henry Lumley Drayton: Simply to extend the old ones.


James Alexander Robb: The interest is payable to the Dominion Government?


Henry Lumley Drayton: Yes.


James Alexander Robb: Is the renewal at the rate of the original issue? What is the rate of interest?


Henry Lumley Drayton: If I remember rightly, it is five per cent. The interest is paid up from year to year; there is nothing overdue. At least, if there is anything overdue it has been but for a short time.
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Sir HENRY DRAYTON thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 77, to extend the time for the payment of certain debentures issued by the Harbour Commissioners of Montreal.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
Sitting suspended for Royal Assent to Bills.
A message was delivered by Colonel Ernest J. Chambers, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:
Mr. Speaker, His Honour the Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General desires the immediate attendance of this honourable House in the Chamber of the honourable the Senate.
Accordingly, the House went up to the Senate.
And having returned,
The Speaker informed the House that the Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General had been pleased to give in His Majesty's name the Royal Assent to the following Bills:
An Act for the relief of Prank Alexander Staunton.
An Act to amend the Exchequer Court Act.
An Act to incorporate The Canadian Bar Association.
An Act respecting The Montreal, Ottawa and Georgian Bay Canal Company.
An Act respecting The Oshawa Railway Company.
An Act respecting The Thousand Islands Railway Company.
An Act respecting The Kettle Valley Railway Company.
An Act respecting The Manitoba and North . Western Railway Company of Canada.
An Act respecting The Quebec Central Railway Company.

An Act respecting The Essex Terminal Railway Company.
An Act respecting The Ottawa, Northern and Western Railway Company.
An Act for the relief of William Henry Coulson.
An Act for the relief of Elizabeth Alexander.
An Act for the relief of William Gleaves Doyle.
An Act for the relief of Dorothy Mearuel Score.
An Act for the relief of Henry William Maynard.
An Act for the relief of George Elmor Glossop.
An Act for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of the financial year ending March 31, 1922.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. Sir Henry Drayton (Minister of Finance), the House went into committee to consider the following proposed resolution, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
That it is expedient to amend the Currency Act, 1910, chapter fourteen of the statutes of 1910, and to provide:-
1.	That nickel coins struck by the authority of the Crown for circulation in Canada, of five cents denomination, of the standard weight of seventy grains, of the standard fineness of pure nickel, with proper remedy allowance, shall be equal to and pass current for the said sum in the currency of Canada;
2.	That a tender of money, if made according to the provisions of the said Act, in such coins, shall be a legal tender for a payment of an amount not exceeding ten dollars; and to a like amount such coins may be used in the payment of notes if presented for payment at one time, although any of such notes is for a less sum; and no other nickel coins shall be a legal tender In Canada;
3.	That the Governor in Council may make regulations as to redemption of such coins which by reason af abrasion through ordinary and legitimate use are no longer fit for circulation;
4.	That revenue officers may cut, break or deface counterfeit or unlawfully diminished nickel coins;
5.	That it shall not be lawful for any person, except under and in pursuance of a license granted by the Minister of Finance, to melt down, break up, or use otherwise than as currency any gold coin which is for the time being current and a legal tender in Canada; and that penalties be imposed for violation of this provision.
Henry Lumley Drayton: 
William Stevens Fielding: Dealing with the last point first, the penalty, I presume, will be set forth in the Bill which my'hon. friend proposes to introduce?


Henry Lumley Drayton: Yes.


William Stevens Fielding: I entirely commend my hon. friend for giving Canada a new coin. The matter has been discussed from time to time. It was discussed last session, and I then very cordially supported the suggestion that we should have a nickel coin. Has my hon. friend yet reached any conclusion as to the design of the coin?


Henry Lumley Drayton: The design
has not yet been selected. The only conclusion we have come to is as to the size and weight. The new coin will be of the standard weight of 70 grains, and will be of exactly the same size as the American coin.


William Stevens Fielding: It has not heretofore been found necessary in Canada to have any legislation concerning the melting down or breaking up of gold coins. One could hardly conceive that it would make gold any more valuable to break it up, but as a matter of fact, it was found during
the war that gold in the form of bullion was worth more than in the form of coin and there were several prosecutions in England, under the law my hon. friend has referred to, for melting down gold coin. I think he has been quite wise in adopting the provisions of the English Act in that respect.
One of the possible objections to a nickel coinage is the colour; one is likely to confuse nickel with silver. That has even been noticeable in France, where the white metal comes into competition with silver. That is sometimes embarrassing, and if we could avoid it by having a different-sized coin, that would be very helpful. My hon. friend has given us a new cent. It was constructed, I believe, on grounds of economy, which I ought to commend-he has put as little copper in the cent as possible. He must have designed it, I think, at a time when copper was 30 cents a pound. Now it is worth 12 cents a pound, and I think my hon. friend is trying to make a great deal more money out of that one-cent piece than is necessary or wise.
There is another difficulty. In handling coinage, the sense of touch is of great assistance. When a man puts his hand in his pocket, he likes to be able to tell by his sense of touch which coin he is drawing out, but my hon. friend's new one-cent piece is so near the size of the ten-cent piece that sometimes it is a little embarrassing. I am told, and I have seen it in the press, that taking advantage of that similarity in size some shrewd and not too honest persons have silvered over the Canadian cent and have succeeded occasionally in passing it off as a ten cent piece. I could wish, for that reason, that in the selection of the one-cent piece the hon. gentleman had not been so economical, but had made it a little larger than the ten-cent piece. I have the two in my hand at the moment, and while there is a perceptible difference when one's attention is drawn to it, the difference is very slight. I think it is a pity for that reason that we did not get a little larger cent. When you put your hand in your pocket for a couple of cents for a newspaper, very often you will find you are drawing out a ten-cent piece. One is as likely to come out as the other, the difference is so very slight. That, however, is only a mild form of criticism but if the hon. gentleman has at another time occasion to make a new design or to reconsider the size of the one-cent piece, I think the point would be well worth considering. With the main purpose of the resolution, as



* COMMONS

[Stage Direction]
regards the nickel coinage, I am very heartily in accord.
Henry Lumley Drayton: The hon.
gentleman is quite right as to economy being a factor in the size of the new one-cent piece. Perhaps what we had most in mind was to save the lining of the pockets of my hon. friend from Beauce, who complained that the larger cent wore his pockets out, and he made a heart-rending appeal for a smaller coin. I hope he likes it. I quite appreciate the point made by my hon. friend from Shelburne and Queen's (Mr. Fielding), but there are many difficulties connected with it. For example, the old cent was very near the size of a quarter, and people used to pull out of their pockets a quarter when they wanted a cent, and vice versa. I think the point my hon. friend makes as to the sense of touch is important. Of course, there is no milling on the cent, as there is on the ten-cent piece. There will be no milling on the nickel. I would be very much pleased if the hon. gentleman would be so kind as to come into the office and look over the blanks with me and give me the benefit of his advice.


William Stevens Fielding: I think I can trust the hon. gentleman to do that.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I beg to move that the word "five" be substituted for the word "ten" in the second line of paragraph two of the resolution.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Sir Henry Drayton thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 78, to amend the Currency Act, 1910.
Motion agreed to and Bill read the first time.
[Stage Direction]
House again in Committee of Supply, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
. Mines and Geological Survey: For organization and equipment of the Explosive Division, under the Explosives Act, Chap. 31, 4-5 George Y, $11,500.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: What does
this branch do?


Mr. TOLMIE:: This Explosives division was created in 1919 to administer the Explosives Act, passed previously. The duties of the officials are to draw up and enforce regulations for the manufacture, storage, importation, sale, and use of all explosives, to inspect factories and magazines, to issue licenses for the same, and to work in co-operation with the provincial

and Dominion police. The staff comprises, one chief inspector, two chemists, one inspector, and two clerks. There is a decrease in the vote this year, due to the fact that some of the staff have been placed on the permanent list.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines Branch, $272,100.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is practically the same in all particulars as the vote of last year?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Geological Survey, $332,000.
Mr. JOHNSTON:: What is reputed to be a great oil find has been made in the Mackenzie district, and I think it would be well for the minister to make a general statement in regard to the Government's policy concerning, say, a wireless telegraphy system in connection with that district, the question as to how the staffs of the Geological Department are to be transported, the construction of a pipe line in that district if oil is found in sufficient quantity, and so on. The people throughout Canada are very much interested in this discovery, and a statement from the minister would be advisable.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: This comes ' under the Department of Interior, and will be dealt with when the Estimates of that department are under consideration. I have made a note of the hon. member's suggestion and shall be glad to make the statement he asks for.


John Frederick Johnston: The minister, in answer to a question last evening, said that the department were sending a number of parties from the Geological division into that district. I wanted to know how they were to be transported, and he said by canoes. Great exception is taken to this means of transportation by the men in the field, who think it is a mistake not to have these parties transported by aeroplane. Transportation by canoes does not make for expedition, which is essential in matters of this kind.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: It was the intention of
the Air Board to take up the proposition of air transportation to this area, but the Estimates of that board were reduced, and they are, therefore, unable to consider the question this year. There will be
5 p.m. no loss of time in transportation; the men are on their way now,

and will be on the ground as soon as it is ready for operations.


John Frederick Johnston: How long does it take to make the trip from Edmonton to Port Norman?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: From two to three weeks.


John Frederick Johnston: Do these parties operate from Port Norman or any particular district?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: They carry on explorations between Great Slave lake and Fort Good Hope.


Mr. MAHARG:: I notice an item of
$1,500 for museum equipment. This seems to be a standing vote every year. What is it for?	.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: It is for necessary equipment for the museum in Ottawa. This is under the Mines Branch, and the money is for the purpose of building cases for exhibits, providing for the purchase and storage of specimens, and occasional purchases of collections of minerals, Indian handicraft, skins of animals, etc., and also for purposes of research in the museum.


John Archibald Maharg: Is this an annual expenditure? It seems to be a fixed charge.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: This appropriation has
been made for the last two years.


Georges Henri Boivin: Carried.


Mr. PEDLOW:: What are the duties of
the junior purchasing agent in this department? On page 101, giving the details of these Estimates, provision is made for this official of $1,770.


Georges Henri Boivin: From what page is
the hon. member reading?


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Page 101.


Mr.   CHAIRMAN@: That item was carried last night and therefore the question is not in order.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The hon. member will
find a full explanation in Hansard of to-day.


John Frederick Johnston: Referring to the Geological Survey Department-


Georges Henri Boivin: This item has been declared carried.


John Frederick Johnston: Well, the hon. member for South Renfrew (Mr. Pedlow) got the floor.


Georges Henri Boivin: I do not want to
interfere with any legitimate discussion -I do not think that the Chairman should
do so. On the other hand it is not in order for hon. members to retain their seats until long after a motion has been declared carried and then ask to refer to it again. However, if the hon. member (Mr. Johnston) did not hear the Chairman's declaration,
I think his question should be allowed if it is relevant.


John Frederick Johnston: My question is, just what parties are going into this district?
I think the minister said there were five.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: No, four.


John Frederick Johnston: How many individuals are there in each party and who is the head of each party?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: There are five men in
each party, and the heads of the parties are Dr. Williams, Dr. Hume, Mr. Whittaker and Mr. Dowling. .


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Is item 250, Geological Survey, still open for consideration?


Georges Henri Boivin: Yes.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I find two objects of this item to be for the purchase of specimens for the Victoria Museum, and for publications of English and French editions of reports, maps and illustrations. Are these purchases made through the Purchasing Commission, or are they made by the junior purchasing agent, or by the senior purchasing agent?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Every purchase is made by the Purchasing Commission. We have no senior purchasing agent; the official is classified as "junior purchasing agent" by the Civil Service Commission.


John Frederick Johnston: How are the reports of these field parties transmitted to Ottawa?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The reports come in in the fall.


John Frederick Johnston: That is to say, reports of the work they are doing from now until the fall months will not be available at the offices here until the autumn of the present year.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: That is the procedure as regards these outlying districts.


William Daum Euler: I notice an item of $197,000 for explorations, surveys, investigations, and so on. I presume that would also apply to investigations in the Fort Norman oil field, as it is called. Now the public of Canada are very much interested in the possibilities of that field. So far as regards

the development that has gone on I think the only results have been obtained by the Imperial Oil Company of Canada; but in view of the fact that a good many oil companies are being formed and that appeals are being made to the public to take stock in these companies, I would ask the minister whether the Government itself, or the Department of Mines, is making any effort to establish the extent of the oil fields, and whether any information will be given to the public that would serve as a guide for them in connection with the activities of oil promoters in the flotation of companies?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I may say that a general survey of the district was made about thirty years ago by Mr. McConnell of the Geological Survey Department; he remained in there two summers and one winter making general surveys of the whole Mackenzie river basin. The object of the four parties that are going into that district at the present time is to carry out that work in detail and to secure information that will be of value to the development of that particular district.


William Daum Euler: Will the field be left entirely to private explorers, or is the Government drilling for oil?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: We do not do any drilling; we simply carry on a geological survey of the country. The drilling will be done by private parties under the regulations that have been framed for that par-, ticular section of the country.


William Daum Euler: Does the department propose to supply to the general public any information with regard to the possibilities of that oil field?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Every bit of the information obtained by the parties sent out by the Government is available to the public.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Strathcona):: Will the minister explain the nature of the surveys that are being made?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: It is a survey of the geology and the general structure of the country so as to be of use in prospecting for oil.


John Flaws Reid: This is a most important matter, and I would ask the minister how" this information will be made available to the public. Out West we expect a very large oil boom in that country this year. We had an oil boom in Calgary some time ago but it was a fake-in fact CM.r. Euler.]
there was more hot air than oil about it- and a great many people lost their money owing to the activities of exploiters. There should be something done in this case to get the information to the public as quickly as possible as to whether or not there is a genuine field for investment.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Our inspector will be visiting the district in August with a view to securing information from these parties which he will impart to the public, and final reports will come in when the parties have completed their surveys for the season.


John Flaws Reid: What system is employed in order to get this information out to the public?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The information is sent out through the newspapers, and later on when the final reports come in they are available to the public.


John Flaws Reid: Will the Department of Mines issue bulletins containing information on the subject?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: That is done regularly where it is considered important.


John Flaws Reid: Is there any
definite information now in regard to the oil flow at Fort Norman?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Not first-hand information.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Grant to the Canadian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy, $3,000.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is the customary grant is it not?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: This is the annual grant to the Canadian Mining Institute, which is a technical society organized in the interests of the mining industry of Canada. This amount has been voted annually for over twenty years, with a view to defraying the cost of public information regarding the mineral resources and mining conditions of the country.


William Daum Euler: Is it an association of mining engineers?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Mining engineers and prospectors.	.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Grant to Imperial Mineral Resources Bureau $12,166.67.
Ernest Lapointe: This is one item upon which I desire to have some explanation.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: 
Ernest Lapointe: I desire, Mr. Chairman, to renew the protest which I made last year in regard to this item. The mineral resources of Canada as well as our other natural resources are Canadian resources. Why should any of our resources be called Imperial resources? I believe in the British Empire, but our property is Canadian property. What is the purpose of that Bureau? Was Parliament consulted before its creation?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: This Bureau was created in 1917 in London. The Prime Minister, I understand, was present at the opening meeting. As I have pointed out, the Bureau is for the purpose of all the British Dominions joining together with a view to advertising their mineral resources and gathering information as to the supplies of minerals in different parts of the British Empire, with a view to making the British Empire independent so far as mineral supplies are concerned. I am quite sure that this Bureau, conducted as it is and with the meetings that they hold from time to time, will render great service to the development of the mineral resources of this country and to the men interested in them.


Ernest Lapointe: In what way can Canada benefit from the work of that Bureau?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: 
Frank S. Cahill: What kind of advertising? Where does this advertising take place?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Advertising in the greatest centre of capital in the world-right in the city of London.


Ernest Lapointe: I do not think Canada needs any advertising in London. Surely the minister does not pretend that we must do anything to advertise our resources in London?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: We are busy advertising cur agricultural resources there all the time, and with very great benefit to the agriculturists of this country.


Frank S. Cahill: What is the nature of the undertaking as between the different overseas nations in connection with this Bureau? What kind of bargain have we gone into there? Is it to be perpetual?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: 
William Daum Euler: To whom is this bureau
responsible?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: To a board of governors, and each of the Dominions is represented on that board.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Who represents Canada? Mr. TOLMIE: Dr. Miller, of Toronto.


Frank S. Cahill: Has a report of this
bureau been presented to this House?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The first report is not
available yet, but it will be presented as soon as it is ready.


Frank S. Cahill: As the first report since 1917 is not yet available, I do not see much sense in spending further money on this bureau. At any rate I think the minister might pass the item over for the present until we get further information. We are getting entangled in all kinds of affairs without our knowledge. I have no recollection of this item being passed last year, although, of course, that is no reason for thinking that it was not passed regularly. But we were told the other night about a board being organized after we had battled in the House against its organization and the proposition had been withdrawn on two occasions. But the board was established by Order in Council and we were told that we are responsible for it.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: This money was voted for the first time last year. Would the hon. gentleman like to have any further information?


Frank S. Cahill: I would like to have the report.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: We will be very glad to send him one as soon as it is available. Although the establishment of the bureau was agreed to in 1917, our first contribution to it was not made until last year.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Was the same amount expended last year?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Yes.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Where did it go? Who got it?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: It was transferred to the bureau as our contribution. I cannot give details of the expenditure at the present time.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I do not think it is very
good business'that we should be asked to transfer $12,000 or any other sum to a" bureau that we know nothing about. We have no report of its activities nor any information of how our contribution was expended or what benefit accrued to us. I think we should have more details.


Mr. STEVENS:: I would like to ask my hon. friends opposite who are objecting to 
this item if they have failed to recognize this point? Canada has a very wide diversity of resources, particularly mineral. Some of the minerals are somewhat rare and are needed in Great Britain, we will say, or in some other part of the Empire. As I understand it, remembering last year's presentation of this matter, this bureau is for the purpose of familiarizing the Empire with the resources available in its different parts. I remember very distinctly the impression I got at the time that this was an exceedingly useful institution for Canada, as we have perhaps more of these resources than any other part of the Empire, and what we are doing is bringing the attention of the friendly sister Dominions and of the Mother Country to those resources so that they may secure them here rather than in foreign countries. I submit to the committee that this bureau is a very desirable institution, and while its first report is not yet in, I do not think we should object to the item without very serious consideration of that feature.


Frank S. Cahill: In answer to the hon.
member for Centre Vancouver (Mr. Stevens) all I have to say is that we do not know what we are doing-no report has been submitted-and just because the hon. member gets up and tells us that this is something of considerable importance is no reason why we should accept his view. Indeed, his own opinion is discounted because he does not know anything about the report itself. He is asking this committee to pass a vote for something that he says must be right because some one else said so last year. That is not the way to do the business of this House.


Henry Herbert Stevens: My hon. friend is
altogether overheated in his response. I simply invited attention to a feature which I thought was useful and of great benefit to Canada.


Frank S. Cahill: The suggested usefulness may be all right; that is what we want to find out. We want to know what our money is being spent for; who is spending it; to whom this committee are reporting; and when we may get a statement of the expenditure. We have no money to throw away in making soft jobs for people. We have enough soft-job holders in this country without going outside to provide places for them. If the minister is not prepared to give a report, I think he should let the matter stand until he is in a position to do so.


Mr. MIDDLEBRO:: Carried.


Frank S. Cahill: No, it is not carried. If my hon. friend wants to carry it, he knows how to do so. If he has not enough courtesy to wait for the minister to answer we will teach it to him right here and now.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I may say that the report is not available as yet, but we can likely furnish in a few days the details of how this money has been expended. If the committee desires it, I am quite willing to let this item stand until such time as I am able to produce the information.
Item stands.
Miscellaneous-to provide for expenses in connection with a Canadian exhibit at the National Exposition of Chemical Industries, New York.


Ernest Lapointe: Do we spend money every year on this exposition?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: We are exhibiting now for the first time.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Then what was the amount of $7,500 spent for last year?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: That was for the purchase of material and specimens for the exhibition of this year; also for the purchase of space.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Civil Government-Indian Affairs-salaries, $142,735 ; contingencies, $19,000.
Ernest Lapointe: What has been done by the Department under the law passed last year providing for the compulsory enfranchisement of the Indians?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: No action has been taken yet with reference to compulsory enfranchisement; no officials have been appointed to carry on the work.


Frank S. Cahill: To what does the minister attribute the reports in the press that the Six Nation Indians are going across the border into the United States?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: That is an unfounded rumour, so far as I am aware. I cannot account for the action of the newspapers in matters of that kind; it would be very difficult to keep track of some of them.


Frank S. Cahill: The actions of the Government have been such that any one seeing newspaper reports of that kind would naturally have his suspicions aroused. The Government did bring in a Bill and it is not surprising for any one to expect drastic action at any time.


Ernest Lapointe: The committee which considered the Bill, to which I have just referred, made a report in which it was
suggested that a standing committee of this House should be appointed in regard to Indian Affairs. Is it the intention of the minister to take such a step?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: It has not been considered, so far as I am aware.


John Frederick Johnston: What is the salary of the Indian Commissioner at Regina? If there has been an increase in his salary, when and upon whose recommendation was it made?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The present Indian
Commissioner there receives $4,800 a year. His salary was increased from $3,600, and the action was taken by the Civil Service Commission.


Frank S. Cahill: Are all these appointments made through the Civil Service Commission?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Yes.


John Frederick Johnston: When did this increase become effective?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Last year; I could not give the exact date.


William Daum Euler: Has the Civil Service Commission power to fix and increase salaries, or must that be done in accordance with the reclassification?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: It must be done in
accordance with their reclassification and in the carrying out of the Act.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I see there is a new official to be appointed, an assistant senior engineer. What are his duties?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: He takes care of the roads, bridges, ditching and other works of an engineering character on the Indian Reserves.


Ernest Lapointe: I see there is a salary of $3,000 for the private secretary to the minister. The Minister of Indian Affairs, I understand, is also Minister of the Interior. Has he a private secretary for each of these Departments?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Yes.


John Frederick Johnston: Is the Indian Commissioner at Regina given an allowance by way of residence, or does the amount of salary stated by the minister constitute his whole remuneration?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: He receives a free house in addition to his salary.


Ernest Lapointe: Has Sir James Loug-heed not a department to supervise apart

from the Department of the Interior and the Department of Indian Affairs?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Interior, Indian Affairs and Mines, also Civil Re-establishment and Soldiers' Land Settlement.


Ernest Lapointe: Has he a private secretary for each of the departments?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: He has one for the Department of the Interior and one for the Department of Indian Affairs, but not one for each of the other departments.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Perhaps the minister would give the committee a short review of the Indian situation in Canada, giving the number of reserves and the location and population of each reserve. It would also be most interesting to know whether the Indian population in Canada is increasing or decreasing, and to what extent.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: There is practically no change in the number of Indian reserves. There are about three hundred reserves. The Indian population, about 100,000, is just about the same. I do not think it is necessary for me to go into the full details. All that can be obtained in the report of the Department of Indian Affairs.


Henri Sévérin Béland: All I wanted was a general statement of that character. I am glad to know the Indian population in Canada, also the number of reserves. In what province are the reserves mainly located?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The greatest number are located in British Columbia; there are a number in Saskatchewan, Alberta and the other provinces.


Mr. PARENT:: Are there any reserves in Quebec?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: About thirty.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: The Indians at Riviere du Loup in the county of Temiscouata have been deprived of the services of their doctor, Dr. Lebel, who has moved to the West. I do not think any nomination has yet been made. When will a doctor be appointed for the tribe in the county of Temiscouata?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: This matter is now in the hands of the Civil Service Commission. As soon as we receive their decision, we shall have a man to attend to those Indians.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: Speculators are after some lands in Temiscouata that belong to the Indians, spruce lands, very good lands. Orders were given by the department to

sell this land. The Indians called on me one day and protested against this. I wrote to the department, and at the time the agent had received orders to sell the land. The deputy minister told me at the time that the order was put aside for a while. Will this order stand good forever, or what is the intention of the department in regard to this land?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: It is not the intention
of the department to sell those lands immediately, and the order will, I suppose, stand until such time as conditions change so as to indicate the necessity of some other course.


John Frederick Johnston: The minister informed the committee that the salary of the Indian commissioner at Regina had been increased from $3,600 to $4,800 within the last year upon the recommendation of the Civil Service Commission. Have all other employees of the Indian Department received similar increases?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: No, the other employees of the department did not receive any increase in salary. This man, whom I have met, is thoroughly versed in Indian affairs, a very valuable man. I remember last year, at the opening of the Regina exhibition, viewing an Indian agricultural exhibit that would have been a credit at any show anywhere. This was shown to me with great pride by this particular man and it had been worked up by him. If he was doing work such as this exhibit indicated, it would seem as if he was worth this salary.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: Two sessions ago I was told by the present Prime Minister (Mr. Meighen) that it was in his mind to remove the agency of the Indians in Temiscouata county from Cacouna to Riviere du Loup. There are practicaly no Indians at Cacouna; they are all in the vicinity of Riviere du Loup. The Indian agent, Mr. Lebel, is an old man over seventy, a wealthy man, and when the Indians want something, they have to make a trip down to Cacouna, or telephone. I was promised at the time that the matter would be looked into and that, perhaps, the agency would be moved from Cacouna to Riviere du Loup. Has any progress been made in that connection?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The matter was investigated by the Indian Department, but they did not decide to move the agency to Riviere du Loup. The matter is not, however, be-

yond being changed, and I shall be very glad to bring it to the attention of the minister in charge.


John Frederick Johnston: Has the Indian commissioner at Regina a free residence? Is that residence owned by the department?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Yes.


John Frederick Johnston: When was it purchased? How long has he had the use of that place and what was the price paid for it?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The agent has had the use of a residence, the rent of which was paid by the department until two years ago, when it was considered better to purchase a new residence for him. This residence was purchased at a price of $12,500 two years ago, and he has occupied that residence since.


John Frederick Johnston: From whom was this residence purchased?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I regret that I am unable to give the name of the vendor.


James Alexander Robb: The reference made by the minister to the exhibit by Indians at the Regina exhibition reminds me that, at various times when distinguished visitors have come to Canada from overseas, it has been the custom of some department-I do not know whether it is the Department of State which takes care of these visitors or whether this custom has been initiated by the Department of Indian Affairs-to bring the Indians in from away back on the reserves to stations along the line in order to show them to these visitors. That was particularly noticeable during the recent press conference that was held in this country in August last. It just so happened that at that time I was in England, from reading the English newspapers one would get the idea that the only thing we had to show in Canada was Indians. The papers from day to day were telling how these Indians came down to meet the distinguished visitors, who seemed to be more delighted and impressed with the visit of the Indians than any other feature of Canadian life. I do not object to having the Indians pay their respects, but it seems to me that the next time there are distinguished visitors in this country, it would be well for us to impress them with the idea that we have something more than Indians to show.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The policy of the department is entirely opposed to the practice to which my hon. friend has referred. We do
not organize these visits of Indians to meet visitors to Canada. I had a very striking-illustration of that two years ago, at the time of the big cowboy round-up in Calgary, when the department was requested to let the Indians go out there to add picturesqueness to the scene. I know the department absolutely refused to let them go, but I do not think there was an Indian within a thousand miles of Calgary who had a horse that could carry him who was not there.


Mr. WHITE (Victoria):: What is the nature of these exhibits?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: An exhibit of grains, roots, and general field produce. It was a very excellent exhibit, and a large one too.


John Frederick Johnston: I have another question regarding the increase in salary to the Indian Commissioner at Regina. The minister stated that the increase was made upon the recommendation of the Civil Service Commission. I understand that we had an American firm in this country investigating and reporting on our Civil Service, and I would like to know if this increase was made on their recommendation, and if the Indian Department was investigated by that organization.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The American organization confined their work largely to the city of Ottawa. They had nothing to do with the recommendation of this particular increase. It was recommended by the Civil Service Commission.


John Archibald Maharg: Was the increase made through the reclassification?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Yes.


John Archibald Maharg: Might we have an idea as to what his duties were before reclassification?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Before reclassification he was inspector for South Saskatchewan. His duties have been considerably enlarged, and he is now' Indian Commissioner.


John Archibald Maharg: What does the enlargement of hjs duties consist of?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Previously his duties
were confined to the inspection of reserves in South Saskatchewan. His field has been increased so that he now looks after the whole of the three Prairie Provinces.


John Archibald Maharg: Does he give any more time to the work than he did before?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Very much more.


John Archibald Maharg: I understood that he Mr. TOLMIE:	That is the usual allowwas a permanent officer before. Is he now ance for the private secretary. That is a super-permanent officer? Or what? done in all departments.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: More efficient, I would say.


Arthur Bliss Copp: What are the duties of the supervisor of Indian timber lands?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: His business is to inspect and place valuation on timber for sale on the reserves, and also to insist in fire protection.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Has he supervision over all the reserves in Canada?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: He is available for work in any part of Canada, where he may be directed to go by headquarters.


Arthur Bliss Copp: How is the sale of timber-lands carried on? Is the timber sold on the report of some individual?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: By public auction, or by tender after having been thoroughly advertised.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Do you have to get the sent of the Indians?
con-


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Yes, in the usual way.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There are
two inspectors of Indian Agencies. That would seem to indicate a new appointment. What is the necessity for another inspector?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: One is inspector for northern Alberta and the Peace River District, and the other inspector for Ontario and Quebec.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Are there
two inspectors at present?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: These two have come
under civil government. There are more inspectors in the Outside Service, which we will come to later.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There is only one inspector at the present time, is there not?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: There is one permanent
officer, but the other one has been transferred from the Outside Service, and now comes under civil government.


Ernest Lapointe: Coming back to the
question of private secretary, I notice that apart from his salary of $3,000 an allowance of $600 is provided on the same page for private secretary. Does the allowance go to the same officer?


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: What is the necessity
for that extra allowance? Does he receive that in addition to the bonus?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: If he were entitled to
receive the bonus, he would receive it. This allowance of $600 is granted to all the private secretaries on account of the overtime they have to put in. My own private secretary-I can only give my own experience-is frequently working overtime; he is sometimes in this building until midnight and past, and often works on Sundays and Saturday afternoons. I presume this allowance is to meet that situation.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Why is it not given in
one lump sum with the salary? I notice that all the private secretaries get this allowance of $600, in the Indian Affairs Department, for instance, Mines Department, Interior Department, Soldiers' Land Settlement, and so on. But why is it not given as part of the salary?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: A private secretary
might be taken out of the ranks of the Civil Service, and this $600 allowance is some compensation for the extra time he has to put in as private secretary. If he returns to the ranks, the allowance is stopped.


Joseph Archambault: I notice we are
asked to vote a salary of $5,600 for chief of party. I would like to know what the duties of this officer are, and whether the item refers to Mr. Bain, the new organizer of the National Liberal and Conservative party.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: This refers to two men at $2,800 each, chiefs of parties who carry on survey work on the Indian reserves.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: What are
the names of these inspectors of Indian agencies?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: H. A. Conroy and C. C. Parker.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Which of them is in the Inside Service now?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Conroy has been for some time. As a matter of fact, they are both in the Inside Service now.
Mr. MACKENZIE KING; This item, as represented here, would indicate a new appointment beginning with the new year.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: They are both in the Inside Service now, but this is the first time the other has been estimated for the Inside. The estimate for last year was different.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Why are some of these inspectors in the Inside Service and some in the Outside? What is the particular reason for bringing this officer into the Inside Service?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: He has always been stationed in Ottawa. His duties have lain in eastern Ontario and Quebec, and he has always been stationed here.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Why was he not in the Inside Service before?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I canot say; I did not become Acting Minister of Interior until a short time ago.
At Six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The House resumed at Eight o'clock.



PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 62, for the relief of Frederick Harold Walton.-Mr. Fripp.
Bill No. 63, for the relief of Mary Elizabeth Leonard.-Mr. Ball.
Bill No. 64, for the relief of Alexander LaRue.-Mr. Douglas (Strathcona).
Bill No. 65, for the relief of Maria Martin Morel.-Mr. Fripp.
Bill No. 66, respecting The Quebec, Montreal and Southern Railway Company.- Mr. Lemieux.
Bill No. 67, for the relief of George Gourley.-Mr. Fripp.
Bill No. 68, for the relief of Thomas Edwin William Flower.-Mr. Fripp.
Bill No. 69, for the relief of Royland Stanley Morrison.-Mr. Douglas (Strathcona) .
Bill No. 70, for the relief of Arthur Ebenezer Sims.-Mr. Smith.
[Stage Direction]
House again in Committee of Supply.
Indians, Ontario and Quebec, $142,135.
James Alexander Robb: There is an increase of $36,860 in this item. Will the minister explain the reason for it?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The increase is due in part to the transfer from the Estimates for the province of Manitoba to the Estimates for the province of Ontario of the
items relating to the Fort Frances and Kenora agencies amounting to $13,018. Formerly these items were included in the Manitoba Estimates, but as these agencies are located in Ontario it is considered that a change should now be made and they are accordingly incorporated in the Estimates for the province of Ontario. This change is also in line with a suggestion from the Auditor General's Department. A corresponding reduction is made in the Manitoba Estimates. The balance of the increase, $750, is due to the increase of salaries granted under classification of the service.


Frank S. Cahill: What about the increase of $15,018 for medical attendance and medicine?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The balance of the increase is explained by the transfer of the Estimates of the Fort Frances, Kenora, and Savanne agencies which were formerly included in the Manitoba Estimates but are now transferred to the Ontario Estimates where they properly belong. There will be a corresponding reduction in the Manitoba Estimates so that on the whole there will be no increase. This Estimate is to cover the cost of administration both in Ontario and Quebec.


James Alexander Robb: The minister will notice that there is an increase in the Estimates for Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and Northwest Territories amounting to $17,796, so that the corresponding reduction, of which he speaks, is not apparent.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I will be very glad to explain that when we get to the Estimates for Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta.


James Alexander Robb: The reason I mention it now is because the minister says there is a corresponding reduction in the Estimates for Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and Northwest Territories, whereas all these grouped together show that instead of a reduction there is an increase of over $17,000.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: There is a reduction, but on other items there has been an increase in those provinces which I will be very glad to explain when we get the items themselves.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and Northwest Territories, $574,210.
John Frederick Johnston: I understand that certain lands in the Muscowegan reserve in



Saskatchewan have been surrendered by the Indians at the request of certain residents of that district. Are those lands to be surveyed, subdivided and placed on the market this year?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: This land is covered by a lease at present, but as soon as arrangements can be made for its termination the land will be placed on the market.


John Frederick Johnston: When will that lease expire?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: It does not expire until 1923, but negotiations are now proceeding for its termination.


John Frederick Johnston: Does not that lease carry a clause for cancellation?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: There was no clause for cancellation in that particular lease.


John Frederick Johnston: Why not?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: It was left out. Just why I am unable to say at the present moment.


John Frederick Johnston: Who drew the lease?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: It was drawn by the Indian Commissioner.


Frank S. Cahill: With regard to the land that has been taken out of the Riding Mountain reserve in Manitoba, has any provision been made to reimburse the Indians?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Yes, they will be reimbursed.


Frank S. Cahill: To what extent?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: That has not been settled yet.


Frank S. Cahill: What is the basis of the arrangement? It is not very satisfactory to be told that the matter will be settled.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I will give the hon. gentleman the information as soon as I get it.


Frank S. Cahill: We want it now.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: He will get it now. The land has not yet been surrendered, Mr. Chairman, and we are unable to give particulars until the change takes place.


Frank S. Cahill: Has the minister any idea of what arrangements are being made? Are the Indians giving their consent?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: No. Negotiations are
actually in progress at the present time. In the event of a satisfactory arrangement being concluded, the Indians will either be reimbursed in cash or Other land.


John Frederick Johnston: In connection with the land in the Muscowegan reserve the department, as I understand it, were requested by a number of returned men in that district to open it for settlement. The department acted also for another reason, that this reserve was right up against a certain town and the residents were not able to get sufficient land into their school district to carry on. Now from the minister's reply to my previous question, I would gather that were it not for the fact that this lease does not carry a cancellation clause the land would be open immediately. I should like to place on the right individual the responsibility for not having chat cancellation clause in the lease. Who was responsible for that omission?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The Indian Commissioner issued the lease, and of course that is the reason why it cannot be cancelled at the present time.


John Frederick Johnston: It is a fact that leases ordinarily carry a cancellation clause?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Yes, that is the fact.


John Frederick Johnston: Who holds this lease?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: A Mr. White.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: What is the reason for the increase in the item under the heading General Expenses? Last year the estimate was $259,006; this year it is $281,445.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: This is due to increases in salaries granted under classification of the service from first of April 1919 to first of April 1921, amounting to $26,160, and to increases which may be granted for the fiscal year 1921-1922 amounting to $6,680, making a total of $32,840, From this total should be deducted $10,401, representing the Estimates of the Fort Frances and Ken-ora agencies, which are situated in Ontario. These formerly were included in the Estimates of Manitoba, but are now transferred to the Estimates of Ontario, where they properly belong. There will be a corresponding increase in the Ontario Estimates The net increase therefore amounts to $22,439 in the Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta Estimates.


John Frederick Johnston: Does this vote carry an amount for a new school building on the Gordon reserve, Saskatchewan?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: That will be under the vote for Indian education which we will reach very shortly.


Frank S. Cahill: The minister stated that he would explain the difference in Manitoba

when he came to the Saskatchewan Estimates. The Saskatchewan Estimates show two items of decrease amounting to $8,000. Is that where he gets the $36,000 increase in the Ontario and Quebec items?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: As I explained, Mr. Chairman, from this total of $32,000 should be deducted the sum of $10,401 representing the Estimates of the Fort Frances and Ken-ora agencies, which are situated in Ontario and which have formerly been included in the Estimates of Manitoba, but are now transferred to the Estimates of Ontario where they properly belong. There will be a corresponding increase in the Ontario Estimates. The net increase therefore amounts to $22,439 in the Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta Estimates.


John Flaws Reid: Have the salaries of Indian agents been increased?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Yes, in amounts varying from $200 to $600, according to the Civil Service classification.
Indians-Nova Scotia, $50,140.


Mr. CHISHOLM:: Has the amount spent on the Indians in Nova Scotia encouraged them in any way? Are the farms more productive than they have been in the past? The minister knows that large areas are occupied by the Indians in several portions of the province.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The Indians have, on the whole, been rather backward in Nova Scotia in agriculture, but a slight improvement has been noticed in late years.


Alexander William Chisholm: There is an item for roads; will the minister tell us where this money is being expended?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The amounts have not yet been allotted, but the expenditure is usually made on the request of the Indian agents, for improvements to roads in the various agencies.


Frank S. Cahill: What amount of the item "miscellaneous and unforeseen" was expended last year?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: This is for the removal of Indians from Sydney reserve to a new location. The location of the new reserve has not yet been settled; therefore the money has not been expended. It is re-voted this year for the purpose.
Indians-New Brunswick, $23,784.


Mr. LEGER:: Will the minister explain the increase?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: $1,200 for increase of
agents' salaries under the classification and $300 increase granted to doctors for part time service.


Auguste Théophile Léger: Who is the Indian superintendent in the north shore district of New Brunswick?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Mr. Sheridan.


Auguste Théophile Léger: I understand that Mr. Sheridan resigned his position last year to become a candidate in the provincial election held in October. He appears, however, to be still filling the position. I cannot understand how he could have been a candidate in that election and still be acting in the capacity of Indian superintendent without being re-appointed. I observe that an increase of salary is provided for here; surely that is not on his account.


Arthur Bliss Copp: It was to make up his
election expenses-he lost his deposit.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: That is entirely new to
me. I will give the hon. member information in the matter. I am sorry I cannot do it just now.


James Alexander Robb: This is a somewhat important statement that should not be passed over lightly. If officers of the Crown are to take part in elections-become candidates, apparently-there is a different rule in the Indian Department from that which applies in the Department of Railways, where Mr. Hanna has issued instructions that the railway employees are not to take any part in elections. It seems to me that the minister should give a more explicit reply to my hon. friend in that respect.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I quite agree that this
does seem to be a case where more information is necessary; that is why I do not assume the responsibility of replying definitely to my hon. friend now. I would rather have an opportunity to give a full reply in this matter.


James Alexander Robb: Perhaps the minister would be willing to let the item stand in the meantime?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I shall be glad to do that. Mr. CALDWELL:	How many Indian
agents are on salary in New Brunswick? Mr. TOLMIE: Three.
Item allowed to stand.
Indians-Prince Edward Island, $3,935.


Frank S. Cahill: How many Indians are
there in Prince Edward Island?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: 292.

Indians-'general, $192,000.


James Alexander Robb: I notice there is an increase in general expenses of fifty per cent, whereas in the item for education the increase is only twenty per cent. Will the minister explain the large increase for general expenses?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: This increase is required in connection with the payment of Indians surrendering their lands under the provisions of section 89 of the Indian Act, which will be repaid from the avails of the land. It is necessary to ask for an increased vote in view of the expectations of Indian Commissioner Graham that he will be able to secure in the next fiscal year surrenders from Indians and it will require this extra sum to make the advances to the Indians interested. This will be regarded simply as a loan to be repaid as soon as the lands are sold, which will probably be within a year or two.


James Alexander Robb: Does the minister anticipate any profit in respect'of these transactions?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: A profit may often be
secured, but if so it reverts to the Indians.
Indian education, $1,327,805.


John Frederick Johnston: The question I
asked with regard to the new school to be built on the Gordon reserve would come under this item, I suppose. Is there an amount in this vote for that school?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Yes, a portion of the vote is appropriated for that school.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lighthouse and coast service

maintenance and repairs to wharves; $10,000.
Alexander William Chisholm: What is this for?


Mr. BALLANTYNE:: It is simply for minor repairs to small wharves throughout the country that are under the Department of Marine.


Alexander William Chisholm: When the Public
Works Department build a wharf, it is handed over to the Department of Marine who appoint a wharfinger, and he makes certain collections, the money collected being spent in repairs. In a case where a wharf is taken over by the Marine Department, and a wharfinger is appointed, if the wharfinger refuses to act and the wharf is going to destruction, is it the policy of the department to repair the wharf, whether there is a wharfinger there or not?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Alexander William Chisholm: There is a small wharf at Port Margaree. A wharfinger was appointed, but not finding the remuneration sufficient, he gave up the job. The wharf is in a pretty bad state now and requires immediate repairs. Would the minister kindly have his department look after the wharf as soon as possible? The expenditure will be small.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide for breaking ice in Thunder Bay, Lake Superior, and other points deemed advisable for the good of navigation, $40,000.
Isaac Ellis Pedlow: In what manner does
the minister intend to provide for breaking ice in Thunder Bay?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: For the first time in the history of the Marine Department, during the past winter there was no ice to speak of to break. A powerful tug and some other boats are kept constantly at Fort William for the purpose of breaking up the ice Whenever it forms. We have a contract that the firm shall do that work for $40,000 a year.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Am I to understand that this firm is paid $40,000 a year whether there is any work for it to do or not?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: My hon. friend is perfectly right; but as he is just as familiar with Port Arthur and Fort William as I am, he will understand that that is rather a cold part of the country; that there is always ice, and thick ice, in that region. This last winter was an exceptional winter as my hon. friend knows. Therefore, the ice was quite thin, and the work entailed in breaking it up was nothing like what it generally is. In the interest of navigation we have to arrange to have icebreakers on hand.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Would it not be a good business proposition for the Government, instead of selling the icebreaker Lake Champlain for $61,000, to commission that vessel for doing this work under Government supervision, instead of letting the contract to a contractor to do the work on a basis of $40,000 a year?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Lake Champlain is a very old icebreaker. She would not have been powerful enough to do the work, and then the cost of keeping her in commission all the year would be more expensive to the public than the Arrangement that we now have.
Item agreed to	i

To provide for telephones at different points throughout the Dominion in connection with aids to navigation, $500.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: Is there any provision in this item for a telephone between Green island and the mainland?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: Will the minister
consider the petition which has been presented to his department by the Kamou-raska and Temiscouata Telephone Company asking to be provided with copper wire? They will lay down the wire; they will make the connection between the island and the mainland, and they will give a free telephone service to the department.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: That comes more under my colleague, the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Wigmore) than under my department. We have this small amount for certain telephones that we think it necessary to have. I shall be glad, however, to bring the matter to the attention of the Minister of Public Works.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.	.
Amount required for two motor patrol vessels for buoy and lighthouse service in British Columbia, $15,000.
James Alexander Robb: Does any part of this go to the yacht Narbethong?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am afraid not.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I wish to congratulate the minister on the results obtained under this item. I notice that whereas last year the item called for $65,000, this year the item is only $15,000, a reduction of $50,000. Can the minister explain the reason for this reduction, because, if the requirements are the same, the reduction is enormous. If it is as it appears, a reduction in the services rendered, the minister deserves to be congratulated on this item.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I do not think I am in for congratulations at all, although I appreciate the sentiments of my hon. friend. Last year the amount voted was $50,000; but it was not found sufficient, and, therefore, we are asking for $15,000 more to add on to that amount. I wish to explain to my hon. friend how that happened. The men who are building these two small boats are returned soldiers, and they put in the lowest tender. Then they came to Ottawa and told me that they could not finish the boats at the price at which they had tendered. They said that if we insisted on their doing so, they would
have to assign. Therefore we raised up their bid to the next lowest bid.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I do not think the minister is quite correct. The item last year was for $65,000. With this additional $15,000, the total would be $80,000.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The main Estimate last year was for $50,000, and there was an item of $15,000 in the Supplement-aries.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Then there is this $15,-
000, which makes $80,000 altogether.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: That is correct.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I do not know whether
I am in order in bringing up the matter on this item, but I am sure hon. members of the House have received circular letters from time to time from a gentleman out in Prince Rupert regarding the steamboat Narbethong. I do not know whether the man has a real grievance or not, or whether he is insane. He has certainly been making charges in these circulars against the minister.


Arthur Bliss Copp: He must be sane.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: If he has a real grievance, I think it should be looked into.


Georges Henri Boivin: I do not want to prevent the minister giving an answer to the hon. member, but as Chairman of the Committee I really do not see what relation there is between the circulars which have been received by the different members and this vote for two motor patrol vessels for buoy and lighthouse service in British Columbia. The matter certainly is not relevant and I hope that when an answer has been given by the minister the discussion will be allowed to remain at that point.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I am quite aware that
it might not be relevant to this item, but I thought perhaps the minister might make a brief explanation in passing. I am sure other hon. members are interested in the matter as well as myself. I have one of these circulars in my hand now.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am sure it is
not the first circular my hon. friend has received since he has been a member of this House. I had the honour and the privilege of meeting this gentleman when I was out at Prince Rupert. He takes a great deal of personal pleasure in having these circulars printed from time to time. Sometimes they are addressed to his Excel-

lency the Governor General, sometimes to the people of Canada, and sometimes to the members of the House of Commons.
I am quite sure my hon. friend does not take these circulars seriously.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Steamboat inspection, $108,810.
Isaac Ellis Pedlow: The subject I brought
up on the previous item would properly be in order, I think, on this item, which has to do with the inspection of steamboats.
I should like the privilege of reading a few extracts from this circular.


Georges Henri Boivin: Before the hon. member reads the letter, I would ask him, if the writer of the letter complains that his steamboat was not properly inspected.
i Mr. PEDLOW: Yes, that is the general complaint-the unfairness of the ruling of the department in consequence of the unfair inspection.


Georges Henri Boivin: As long as the hon.
member assures me of that fact, we will hear the correspondence.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It is not a question of the inspection of the boat. I have ' no objection, however, to this foolish document being read. I think hon. members will agree with that description after they have heard the circular read. The difference of opinion between this man and the department is this:	he has a little bit of
a tug, shall I call it, out there on which he has been carrying passengers. : My department has informed him that he must carry an 18-foot life-boat if he is going to carry passengers. He has refused to do so. The regulations of the Marine Department provide that where a small boat of this size is carrying passengers in somewhat rough seas occasionally, for the safety of passengers a life-boat must be carried. His boat is too small to carry an 18-foot lifeboat.


Mr. EDWARDS:: He could not carry an 18-foot life boat on a 12-foot tug.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: That is the only trouble.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: For the benefit of the Chairman, I will read the first sentence of the third paragraph.


Mr. STEELE:: I rise to a point of order.
I may be wrong, but my recollection is that this is not a signed letter, but merely a printed document which has been distributed to all hon. members. I am sure if

my hon. friend took time to reflect he would not consider he was doing justice to himself in reading this circular to the House. It contains much personal abuse, which I as a member of the House think should not be placed on Hansard.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I do not know the man whose name is at the bottom of this communication, but I think it is entirely in the interests of the Marine Department that the major portion of this letter should be read to the House. Certainly the third paragraph refers distinctly to inspection.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Read it.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: It is headed "Launch Norbethong, A. K. Freeman, proprietor. The Best Advertised Boat in the World," and reads:
Prince Rupert, B.C., March 31, 1921. To the Minister of Justice and Members of Parliament;
Dear Sirs:-
X hereby charge C. C, Ballantyne, Minister of Marine and Fisheries,


Georges Henri Boivin: Orderi The hon.
member certainly has no right to read any document coming from an outsider reflecting on the conduct of a member of the House. It would certainly not be in order for the hon. member to read the letter.


Mr. MORPHY:: Perhaps the hon. member would take the responsibility of making the charges himself.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Would I be in order, Mr. Chairman, in reading a few paragraphs regarding the inspection.


Georges Henri Boivin: The hon. member
would certainly not be in order in reading any portion of a letter of that nature. If he desires to assume responsibility for the contents of the letter, and to make the charges himself from his seat in this House, he may do so, but he certainly cannot read a communication from an outsider reflecting upon the conduct of a member of the House without himself assuming responsibility for the statements therein contained.


Ernest Lapointe: We do not know until the letter is read whether it reflects on a member of Parliament. The word "charge" may be just his style of writing.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: This man complains that there are two boats being operated in the same waters that are smaller in size than the Norbethong. He says the inspector had the right to have him fined if the claims made by the inspector are in accordance

with the facts. I think it is in the interests of the Marine Department and the minister himself to have this matter cleared up.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Salaries and Disbursements of Fishery Officers and Guardians, Fisheries Patrol Service, and Oyster Culture, $754,000.
James Alexander Robb: .There is an increase of $44,-
000.	How is it accounted for?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It is made up as follows: Annual increases to inspectors, overseers and patrol boat captains, provided by reclassification, $10,200; reorganization of the service in Quebec, and its extension made imperative by the Privy Council decision in the Fisheries reference, $10,000; necessary extension of the service in Manitoba and Alberta, $15,000; unforeseen, $8,800, making a total of $44,000.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: What is done in regard to oyster culture under this item?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: An oyster expert, Mr. Kemp, is retained. He keeps the public beds in good condition, and for this purpose is provided with a suitable boat. He supplies information and gets advice to thofeu engaged in private oyster culture. The beds in Richmond Bay, Prince Edward Island, where an epidemic broke out amongst the oysters some years ago, were examined. The disease is abating, but has not yet run its course. There are a few oysters left, and the only remedy is to let the disease run its full course, and then build the beds up again. Professor Robertson, of Toronto University, has been studying the situation and will continue to do so. The oyster situation is far from satisfactory, and it does not seem probable that it will improve until the divided jurisdiction between the provinces and the federal authorities is ended. At present the provinces have the leasing of areas for private culture, while the Dominion makes regulations ana supervises the public beds. The estimated cost of this service is $8,000.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Does this cover the once celebrated Malpeque oyster?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Is that oyster extinct now?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Not quite, although the supply is becoming scarcer and scarcer.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I remember seeing something in the press some time ago about the reorganization of the fishery overseers and the work in New Brunswick in connection
with enlarging the areas which the superintendent had to oversee. The late superintendent was Mr. Donald Morrison, who died recently. Who was appointed in his place, and what changes generally have been made in the extensive fishing industry of New Brunswick? At the same time, the minister might make a statement covering the whole of the Maritime Provinces.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Mr. Crocker was recently appointed to succeed the late Mr. Morrison.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Are his initials " T. W.?"


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I do not know.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Is he of Newcastle?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes. We have three districts in New Brunswick. In No.
1 there are five employees; in No. 2, twelve, and in No. 3 four, a total of twenty-one.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Is that a lesser number than formerly, or the same?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It is the same as before.


Arthur Bliss Copp: 'How many guardians are there?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We have not as many guardians as formerly.
9 p.m. The employees I have spoken of are fishery overseers. However, we have a sufficient number of officers to look after the business.


Arthur Bliss Copp: What salaries do these overseers receive?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: From $1,020. to $1,260.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I do not know whether it is still the practice, but for a number of years the overseers were paid a nominal salary of $150 a year and were allowed mileage driving around the shore. I have not looked at the Auditor General's Report in connection with this particular item, because I did not expect it would be taken up to-night; but I know that in former years the reports sometimes showed a salary of $150 for an overseer and travelling expenses amounting to some $1,500. Is that arrangement still in existence in New Brunswick?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The officer provides himself, at his own expense, with an automobile or a horse and-rig in summer, and winter vehicles, and, where needed, a motor boat. The allowances for maintenance are : automobile, $400 per year, the officer finding his own gasoline; horse and

rig, $300 a year; motor boat, $75 per year, plus gasoline and oil; no mileage.


Mr. SINCLAIR (Queen's):: What is the method or organization in Prince Edward Island, the number of districts, the overseers, and the salaries paid?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We have four
overseers in Prince Edward Island.


John Howard Sinclair: Four districts?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Arthur Bliss Copp: What are the names of the overseers in the district extending from Shediac to Cape Tormentine, and when were they appointed?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: In Westmoreland county they are J. U. LeBlanc and C. G. Prescott.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Would they receive $1,020 each?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No; $1,080.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Were they appointed by the Civil Service Commission?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Arthur Bliss Copp: As a result of examination?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I believe so.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Are the examinations advertised?	' ,


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Alexander William Chisholm: I have a slight protest to make against the conduct of some officer or other; I do not know who is the guilty one. We have a large county with a coast line of about 100 miles, and last year the minister appointed an officer in the southern portion of the county. There was held an examination that had not been advertised, so far as people in the northern portion of the county were aware. That is to say the advertisement was not distributed in the northern portion of the county. I think my information is correct, that the examination was first held in the interior of the county some twenty miles away from the sea shore. I do not know how this was manipulated. It certainly was a process of manipulation because it so happened that when the examination was held two estimable young men from my own neighbourhood went to take it. They left the settlement in the night time and returned in the night time but unfortunately for them and mark well they were from the settlement where this examination was not 
advertised-the papers did not arrive in time. The examination was then changed to another section of the country-Port Hood. The examination was held there, ana I ask hon. gentlemen to mark this, the northern portion of the county where there are perhaps a thousand-yes fifteen hundred-families dependent on fishing, never knew anything about the examination. The result of course was that only a few people in the central portion of the county took that examination. Then, when the time came to appoint an officer in North Inverness, one of the men that had taken the examination was appointed, but he found it was necessary for him to move to the north end of the county, which was inconvenient for him to do and did not accept the post. The second appointee also refused to accept it. They then made a third appointment-a very estimable young man in whom I have every confidence. I am not reflecting on him, but I find fault with the course that was followed in reference to the examination. I consider it to be a serious cause for complaint that the northern portion of this county, which is almost exclusively a fishing community, should be deprived of the opportunity of taking this examination, resulting in the fact that the Government had to go some where else for an inspector. I want to make that protest although I do not know who is at fault.


William Cameron Edwards: I can tell my hon.
friend he is not presenting an isolated case.
I know of an instance where the Civil Service Commission advertised a competitive examination for a certain public post and made the appointment before the date of the examination arrived.


Alexander William Chisholm: That is pretty bad.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There seems to be a good deal in what my hon. friend says, but of course he understands I have nothing to do with the matter at all. These appointments are entirely in the hands of the Civil Service Commission. They are supposed to advertise them well, but if they have not done so all I can say is that I will bring my hon. friend's complaint to. their attention.	:


Alexander William Chisholm: I think the minister is fair in that. I am not blaming the minister with what occurred, but of course he is responsible for the appointment of all the officials. If we have no one to speak to in regard to these appointments we might as well remain silent.


Mr. DUFF:: Who are the fishery overseers for the county of Lunenburg, Nova Scotia?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We only have one, A. J. Evans of Chester.


William Duff: After the argument made by the hon. member for Inverness, and the statement made by the hon. member for Frontenac that the Civil Service Commission made an appointment before the advertised date of the examination, it seems to me the House should take some action with regard to the work being done by that commission. I feel quite confident that the minister in his own business would not allow any kind of a commission to appoint his officials, and it seems to me that the same principle should apply in the matter of the appointment of Government officers. The minister has just made the statement that in the county of Lunenburg, Nova Scotia, which is perhaps the most important fishing county in Canada, there is only one fishery officer in the service of the Government. Previously there were two fishery overseeers, one for the eastern end of the county and the other for the western end. The overseer for the western end resigned on June 8^ 1920, and that position has been vacant for almost ten months. Now I do not know who is to blame for that, but it seems to me that the Fisheries Department should not allow the Civil Service Commission to hold up this appointment for ten months. The district is a very important one, and there are a great many matters coming up from day to day which need the attention of a fishery overseer, and yet we have an	important fishing centre
like this	deprived	of his services.
Now note the effect of the failure to make this appointment. The sum of $160,000 is annually distributed in bounties to the fishermen on the Atlantic coast, and a great part of this bounty goes to fishing vessels and fishermen in Lunenburg county. Yet because of the fact that the Civil Service Commission have not appointed an overseer the department was put to the trouble and expense of sending out individual cheques to individual fishermen. In the past all cheques were sent to the fishery overseer and it was his duty to distribute them. In the present instance, as a result of the way the Civil Service Commission is handling the matter, the department was this year compelled to send out these cheques to individual fishermen with the result that in a great many cases-due to the fact that the department
did not know the addresses of these fishermen-complaints came in that the cheques were not delivered. I do not blame the department, but I think they should take sufficient interest in this matter to compel the Civil Service Commission to make the appointment. My attention was called to this matter several times, and I have had some correspondence not only with the minister and his officials, but with the officials of the Civil Service Commission. The latter have been humbugging with regard to the matter since last June, and there is absolutely no excuse for it. It is certainly the minister's duty to take some action instead of allowing this vacancy to remain for ten months. I am not particular who gets the appointment, it does not matter very much to me, but I do say that somebody should be appointed, and I would like to get an explanation from the minister if it is at all possible, why no appointment has been made.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I find myself for once quite in accord with my hon. friend from Lunenburg. He is quite right in his statement that this position has been vacant since June last. My department frequently notified the Civil Service Commission about the vacancy, and we have systematically followed the matter up since but with no result.


William Duff: It seems to me that some change should be made. If the minister at the head of this department, or the minister at the head of any department, is going to be treated like this by the Civil Service Commission it is time for the Government to take some action. I certainly think that if the minister had consulted the member for the county, or the defeated candidate, or somebody, the appointment would have been made long ago. An important position like this, whether it is in my own county or in any other county, should not be left vacant for ten months. While I do not want to suggest to the minister what he should do, nevertheless, if I were in his place, I would see that something was done. If no action was taktA I would go over the heads of the commission and make the appointment-I would never let a position like this remain open for such a long period. Let me tell the minister how they are humbugging him. As he says the vacancy occurred last June. The minister was good enough to write me, after I had communicated with him, and tell me he would immediately take the matter up with the Civil Service Commis-
(

sion. I found afterwards that the minister had done so, hut on going to the Civil Service Commission in November last I discovered the appointment had not been made. I asked them to show me the correspondence which they did, but they did not do anything from June until November. Four or five months elapsed before they did a single solitary thing-they had just left the matter open. Then in November, after I had written them several letters and protested against this delay, they advertised for applicants with the result that some time in November they received five applications. These applicants were men of anywhere from forty to fifty years of age, and they were compelled to go before an examiner like a lot of school boys and undergo a written examination on subjects which a high school student could not have answered. Fancy expecting men of forty or fifty years of age to sit down and take a written examination in reading and writing. They showed me some of the question papers afterwards, and the questions were such as I could not have answered or ten per cent of the members of this House either. This was the way they were going to select a fishery overseer. All that a man requires for the job is practical experience and a knowledge of the three R's. Yet this Civil Service Commission sitting in Ottawa, knowing nothing about the requirements for the position, asked these men of forty and fifty years of age to write on those examination papers. Nothing was done after the examination, and in February I took the matter up and asked why one of those men had not been appointed. Then I was told that none of them made a sufficient number of marks to warrant appointment. A second examination was held, and as the commission found the written examination was not satisfactory they decided on an oral test. They asked Professor Murray, of Dalhousie University, Mr. Ward Fisher, inspector of marine and fisheries, and a third man-to be selected by them-to sit as an examining board. This meant that the candidates had to travel from my county to Halifax, a distance of sixty miles, and take the oral examination. Professor Murray is a gentleman of culture and learning, but he knows absolutely nothing about the fisheries of Nova Scotia. It would have been far better had the Civil Service Commission chosen an examining board from the locality where the candidates live. That oral examination was held over two months ago, but the vacancy has not yet been filled.

It seems to me that it is time the minister took some strong action and either made the Civil Service Commission fill the vacancy or appointed some one himself.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Did the Civil Service
Commission give any reason for the delay from June to November? And was the appointment an important one?


William Duff: The appointment was perhaps one of the most important in Nova Scotia. As I stated, a great many matters come up every day to be decided by this overseer. For instance, to show the hon. member for North Perth how important this appointment is, at the present time the fisheries overseer for the eastern end of the district, who has enough business of his own to attend to, has to come to the western end and do the work of this other man. There is no excuse for the delay.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Was any excuse given?


William Duff: None whatever. The minister says he took it up with the Civil Service Commission. I took it up also, and I presume other people were active in the matter as well. The commission humbugged that appointment, and several others. It is about time that this House, who are the representatives of the people, took this matter out of the hands o'f the Civil Service Commission.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I can assure my hon. friend that I will take the matter up at once and get something done one way or the other. The Government are looking into the whole question at the present time.


Mr. STACEY:: Has any change been
made in the regulations by which American citizens are permitted to fish in the streams of British Columbia upon payment of a nominal fee, such fishing presumably not being for commercial purposes but for [DOT] sport, although it is not always confined to sport?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: My hon. friend
refers to sport fishing regulations and licenses. That matter is under the consideration of the department at the present time.


William Daum Euler: I do not quite understand the answer given by the minister to the question raised by the member for Lunenburg. He promised action of some kind and said that the Government was also considering the whole question. Did he mean the whole question of the Civil Service Commission?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I told my hon.
friend that as far as this particular fishery overseer vacancy was concerned I would make it my special business to see that some action was taken immediately, and I added that the question of the irregularities or the slowness of the service that has been brought to my attention to-night would be carefully looked into by the Government.


William Duff: In regard to the appointment of new guardians, does the department decide that men over a certain age are ineligible; and is preference given to returned soldiers both as guardians and overseers?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The preference is always given to returned soldiers both for guardians and overseers. We have not any age limit, but I do not think that any one would be appointed who was over sixty-five years, anyway.


Alexander William Chisholm: The minister will be surprised if I tell him that in one particular case-and I am not going to name the parties involved-one of his overseers appointed a returned soldier, and a superior officer came along and said, "You cannot take that man. You must take this man here who is not a returned soldier." That was simply because of something or other in the manner of making application, the returned soldier not getting an opportunity because he did not see the advertisement.
I am sure the minister would be surprised to think that an officer of his department would under those circumstances dismiss a returned soldier and put in his place a man who was not a returned soldier.


Arthur Bliss Copp: That is frequently done.


Alexander William Chisholm: It is not necessary that I should name any of these parties involved, but it will be a lesson for the minister's officers after this if they are told that they must carry out the desires of the minister. I think the minister made last year what I considered equivalent to a promise that men over thirty-five years of age would not be appointed as guardians. Perhaps I am wrong.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am informed that we endeavour to get overseers not over that age, but we have no age limit for ^ guardians.


William Duff: As there is an appointment of an overseer to be made in my county, and as the minister tries to get men under
thirty-five years of age, I must express the Mew that very often a better man could be obtained over that age. The hon. member for Inverness spoke about a returned soldier being supplanted by a civilian, and I also gave an instance. I think the returned soldier should get the preference wherever he is able to fill the position; but it is quite possible in the case of a fisheries position, which calls for practical knowledge of the fisheries, that a returned soldier might not have the necessary qualifications, and consequently the department should be careful to see that they get properly qualified men. Of course, the returned soldier should get the preference wherever it f is possible, but I would not think the line should be tightly drawn if he has no qualification to fill an important position connected with the fisheries. In regard to age,
I do not think the minister should be held down to the age limit of thirty-five. I know many men fifty years of age and over who have been fishing for a number of years, have more practical experience and are better qualified than men of thirty-five.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The policy of the department has been to give preference always to the returned soldier, and we do not hold rigidly to the age limit of thirty-five; that is merely a guide.
I am informed that all the overseers in Nova Scotia are returned soldiers.


Auguste Théophile Léger: Is oyster culture carried on in New Brunswick?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There are oyster beds in Kent county. The work is under the direction of Mr. Kemp.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Legal and incidental expenses, $4,000.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: What is the meaning of "incidental" in this case?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: This is the usual
appropriation. It is sometimes necessary to give our fishery officers legal assistance in effecting prosecutions under the Fisheries Act. The Department of Justice names counsel and taxes the accounts, which are paid out of this appropriation.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Was the entire appropriation spent last year?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No; up to February 28 only $138.95 had been expended.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
To assist in the conservation and development of deep sea fisheries and of the demand for fish, $25,000.
William Duff: Will the minister explain this item?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The expenditure to February 28, 1921, was $21,963.40. The department issues monthly a press bulletin which is distributed to the newspapers throughout Canada. Special illustrated articles are also supplied to the different household periodicals. Competitions in the writing of articles on fisheries by school' children have been started. During the summer photographers were engaged in [DOT] making moving and still pictures of the Atlantic fishing industry, 5,000 feet of film and 190 excellent still pictures being taken. The moving picture films are already in circulation throughout Canada and will soon be shown in foreign countries. A series of lectures to be illustrated with slides from the still pictures is being prepared and these lectures and slides will be at the disposal of school teachers and others who desire to use them. This outline will give a general idea of the character of the work done.
would have to spend more than we have been in the habit of doing. We like to have a little leeway.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide for the inspection of pickled and canned fish, $15,000.
Auguste Théophile Léger: The county which I represent is a great fishing district. Who is the inspector of pickled fish for that county?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Mr. C. Hubbard. He has supervision over several districts, but he lives in Newcastle.


Mr. TURGEON:: I am well acquainted with Mr. Hubbard and I believe he is a good officer, having originally come from Gloucester county. His duties, though, are rather limited. Who has been appointed fishery inspector for the northern counties of Northumberland, Gloucester and Resti-gouche, to succeed Mr. Morrison?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Mr. Morrison was succeeded by Mr. Crocker, of Newcastle, I think.


Onésiphore Turgeon: Is he a returned soldier?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
T 7°, Provide for the maintenance of a Fisheries mtedigence Bureau, $5,000.
Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Up to February 28 we expended only $1,366.80. The object of this vote is to collect monthly statistics of the sea fisheries.


William Duff: Out of what item were the expenses paid of the mackerel scouter operating off the coast of Nova Scotia last year?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No additional expense wa$ incurred. The boat was one of the fishery protection boats equipped with wireless and the only expense would be the sending of the wireless messages.


William Duff: Will that service be continued this year?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Why is the minister asking for an appropriation of $5,000 when the amounts spent in the last two years [DOT] were much less than that, and practically the same in each case? The amount for last year was $1,614.85.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The only object is to be on the safe side. This vote is to let the fishermen know where they can obtain bait, and the time might come when we
[Mr. Ballantyne.J


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I would like to ask the same question as I asked about the previous item. I find, according to the Auditor General's Report for the year 1919-20 that the amount expended on this item was $7,238.28, whereas the Estimates called for $15,000. I cannot understand the reason for asking so much more than the amount required on the average. This is only loading up the Estimates with an amount greater than the amount required for the purpose for which it is asked.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The difference is very easily explained. Heretofore the inspection of pickled fish has been voluntary; but at the last session of Parliament an Act was passed making the inspection of pickled fish compulsory*, and this is only now coming into effect.


William Duff: I presume this amount is to pay officials under the Act which the minister has mentioned. I do not want to complain about the way in which the Act was passed, because I presume I might be accused of leaving Ottawa before Parliament. had prorogued. I notice however, in looking over the proceedings of the House that this amendment to the Fisheries Act was passed the very last day and practically the last hour of the session. In the Marine

and Fisheries Committee strong opposition was taken, not to the principle of the Bill or of the amendments, but to the amendments, because many members of the committee felt that it would be impossible for the present to carry out this inspection. The Opposition was taken by members from the Maritime Provinces-and I think most of the money for inspection of pickled fish will be spent and the inspection will be carried out in the Maritime Provinces- because they could not see clearly how the Act would work out. After the Bill was killed about three times in the committee, it was resurrected and brought down to the House in the dying moments of the session and passed. It seems to me, in view of all these circumstances, that the minister would be well advised if he did not appoint any officials or take 'any action until the matter was further discussed by the Marine and Fisheries Committee. I am not complaining very strongly, although I think it would have been far better if the Act had not been passed last session. In view of the fact that the Act is on the statute book and that other members of the committee and myself, who are interested in the fisheries of the Maritime Provinces, Cannot see how it is possible for the Government to work out a proper inspection of pickled fish, I would strongly urge, in the interest of the fishermen and the fisheries, that the minister take no further action until we have -further discussion and information. Personally, I would be delighted if it were possible in some way to have governmental inspection, because large sums of money are lost every year by people who purchase pickled herring or pickled mackerel which are not properly packed. Under the circumstances, I think it would be only a waste of money for the Government to appoint a number of inspectors; they would only be paying out a lot of money for nothing and causing a great deal of trouble to the fishermen of the Maritime Provinces.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I know my hon. friend, as well as some other hon. members, were opposed to this, but there has been a voluntary inspection of pickled fish for some years. My department circularized the packers in order to find out whether they were in favour of compulsory inspection, and the majority of the replies that we received indicated that there was a general demand that the inspection of pickled fish should be compulsory instead of voluntary. The additional cost of making the inspection compulsory instead of voluntary
is so small, being only $1,800 a year, and the advantages to be derived from compulsory inspection are so great, that I think the Government would be well advised in carrying this out. My hon. friend thought last year that inspectors were to go to the various packers and inspect the fish and the packages in which the fish was put up. That is not the way in which the inspection is to be carried out. The inspection is going to take place only at large assembly centres. Personally, I am a strong believer in Canada having standards for fish and compulsory inspection, in order that we may establish ourselves more firmly in foreign markets than we have so far been able to do.


William Duff: My objection is not to the question of expense. If the thing was feasible, I would not oppose an expenditure of $50,000, because this is a very important matter. If the fish are not to be inspected at the fishermen's establishments, how does the minister expect to inspect the fish at centres? I do not understand what the minister means by " packers." The packers would be the fishermen. I presume, when he refers to " packers," he means the purchasers of these fish, not the fishermen. If the minister's idea is to have the inspection made after the fish are brought in from the fishermen to the purchasers, I do not see how it is possible to do any good, because it is impossible for, say, a dozen inspectors to inspect a thousand or two thousand barrels of herring when they come into the city of Halifax in one day. When a fish merchant buys these fish from the fisherman and pays for them, he cannot go back to the fisherman and claim a reduction if, after opening a barrel, he finds, for instance, there is an old oilcoat in the middle of the barrel, or that the barrel, instead of containing 200 pounds of fish, contains 150 pounds of fish and 50 pounds of salt. The merchant, therefore, has to bear the loss himself. All an inspector can do is to open one barrel out of fifty or a hundred, and that is no good. If the minister wants to have a standard for pickled fish, I agree with him if it is possible to bring that about. At the present time, if you send a carload of fish to Montreal or Toronto and the price drops, the first thing you know, you get a telegram from the buyer in Montreal or Toronto refusing to take delivery. Three months ago two carloads of herring which I sent to Toronto were rejected in that way, although the same kind of fish had been shipped to another man in Toronto who

did not utter a word of protest. The result was that we had to bring those two carloads of fish back, pay the freight from Nova Scotia to Toronto and from Toronto to Nova Scotia, because this man refused to take delivery. If the minister could devise some scheme whereby inspection could get over that difficulty and whereby the buyer would have to accept the governmental inspection as showing that the packages contained good fish, he would be doing something for the country and the fishermen. If an inspector is going to inspect only one barrel in fifty or a hundred, we shall have the same trouble as we have now, because merchants in Toronto or Montreal or the West Indies would say: "These fish are had and we will not take delivery of them." The Government is not going to have an inspector put the inspection brand on fish if he examines only one ox two barrels in a hundred, so that I cannot see how the thing is to be worked out. I am just as anxious as the minister that there should be proper inspection. The only man who can inspect fish properly is the man who buys the fish from the fisherman, because it is his duty to see that he gets value from the fisherman from whom he buys the fish. Unless the fish are to be inspected barrel by barrel in the fish house, I do not see how the minister' can possibly carry out the clauses of this Act.
Mr. BALLANTYNE My department intend to proceed very, very carefully. The regulations read as follows:
In carrying out an inspection of the fish in the containers, an inspecting officer shall open and examine one container in ten, when the lot consists of fifty or more containers, and one container in five, when the lot consists of less then fifty containers.
We have also sent the following information to all parties interested.
1.	Immediately after the passing of the amended Act a circular containing a clear and comprehensive summary of what the Act requires of coopers and packers, was distributed by the Department's Fishery Overseers to all firshermen, packers and dealers who handle pickled fish and to all coopers who make fish barrels.
2.	Before the end of the year complete copies of the Act and Regulations were distributed by the same means to the same people.
3.	The two permanent Inspectors have visited and are still visiting coopers' shops and sections of the Coast where pickled fish are packed for the purpose of giving instruction in and explaining the methods required by the new Act.
4.	During the month of March, public notices were posted up in all districts where pickled fish are packed or fish barrels made, reminding all concerned of the date on which the amended Act becomes operative and of the consequences of not complying with its requirements.

5.	Numerous inquiries in connection with the operation of the Act have been answered from Headquarters.
In view of the publicity we have already given to these regulations, and the fact that we intend to move carefully in this matter, I think my hon. friend will have no complaint to make when he sees how the Act works.


William Duff: I am not making any complaint. I am trying to get some solution of this question. I would be very glad to see the department spend $50,000 on this work if we were going to get value from it, but the minister stated a moment ago that the inspectors will only examine one barrel out of ten, where the lots are fifty or over, and only one in five, where the lots are less than fifty. How can an inspector put the Government stamp on the balance of these fish when he has only examined one barrel out of ten, or one out of five? The one barrel he examines may be good and the other nine may be bad. At the present time, the fish merchants do the examining themselves. After years of experience they know pretty well who packs good fish and who packs poor fish, and when the fish are brought in by the fishermen and landed on the wharf, if the merchants have not sufficient inspectors to look after that lot of fifty barrels, we will say, immediately they do not pay for the whole lot then, but set a number of barrels aside and say, we will examine these later and pay you after we have gone over them if they have any doubt at all as to the way in which the fisherman packs his fish. I would be very glad to see the fish merchants relieved of the necessity of having to do this inspection themselves, and if the department would pay for a proper inspection, well and good, but there must be enough inspectors to inspect all the fish or the inspection is useless. Every ' barrel should be stamped with the Government stamp, as No. 1 or No. 2 fish, and then the man in Toronto or Montreal who buys the fish could not turn them back on the fish merchant and dispute the grade. Unless the minister adopts some scheme of that kind, whereby the merchants wil be protected, it seems to me it is useless for the Government to attempt the inspection.
I quite agree with the minister that it is wise to have some regulations with regard to packages. In the past the packages have been very poor. It is necessary that there should be better packages for putting up herring, mackerel and other fish. If the minister and his officials would see that

heavier packages, with iron hoops on both ends, were made by the coopers and used by the fishermen, they would be doing some good service to the fisheries of this country.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I think my hon. friend will agree that the very fact that there is this compulsory inspection will make the fishermen more careful than they have been under the voluntary inspection system. As to examining every barrel, the Department of Agriculture for instance, when they are inspecting apples, do not inspect every barrel in a shipment, say, of 1,000 barrels, but only a certain number, and then if the inspectors are satisfied that the apples are all right, they put the Government stamp on all the barrels. Section 56 of the Act provides that:
Inspecting officers are not restricted to this scale, but, if need be, shall open as many containers as they may deem necessary to satisfy themselves that the fish are as represented by the marks on the containers.
We will have to trust to the inspectors using proper judgment, and also trust to a certain extent to the honesty of the fishermen.


William Duff: What will happen if a
fisherman brings in fifty barrels of mackerel or herring and the inspector finds that they are bad? Is there any fine or penalty of any kind?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The fish would be marked "below grade", and the fisherman would be liable to a penalty. The maximum fine is $50.


William Duff: Does the inspector impose the fine himself, or who takes action against the fisherman?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The inspector
would bring the offender before a local magistrate.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Salaries, construction and maintenance of fish breeding establishments, $365,000.
Charles Arthur Gauvreau: The other day I had the pleasure of sending to a minister a petition from the Board of Trade of Isle Verte, asking for the construction of a fish breeding establishment at the mouth of what was formerly known as the Salmon river, now known as the Green river. Is there any prospect of the department providing a fish breeding establishment there?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The application of my hon. friend has not yet reached us, but
I suppose it will in due course, when we shall be very glad to give it our very best consideration.	[DOT]


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: Perhaps the minister will send one of his officers down there to make a report. 'That is all I will ask of him at the present time.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I shall be very glad to do as my hon. friend suggests.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: This is a very large item, $365,000. How much of this will be spent in the province of Ontario for fish breeding purposes? Does the Government maintain this service in Ontario? Did they in the past? If 'so, and the service has been discontinued, what is the reason? I get a great many letters from time to time from gentlemen who desire to get young fish or fry for stocking Ontario streams. In the past they used to get both bass and speckled trout from the Dominion Government, but I understand they are unable to get them now. If that is the case, I should like to know the reason.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We have eight
hatcheries in Ontario, for commercial species only.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: What is covered by the term "commercial species", and where are these hatcheries?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The term "commercial species" includes whitefish, salmon, trout, herring and pickerel from the Great Lakes.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Where,are these hatcheries located?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: At Sarnia, Collingwood, Port Arthur, Southampton, Thur-low, Kenora, Kingsville and Wiarton.


Auguste Théophile Léger: A fish-breeding establishment was built on Buctouche beach some years ago and was closed down about two years since. Why was this done?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The hon. member has reference to lobster hatcheries. The department closed up all hatcheries in the Maritime Provinces about two years ago because they were of no benefit in any way.


Mr. WRIGHT:: Is there any fish-breeding establishment in Saskatchewan?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Henry Oswald Wright: Where?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: At Qu'Appelle.


Henry Oswald Wright: What kind of fish is
bred there?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Whitefish.


Henry Oswald Wright: Any other varieties?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Not that we know of.


Henry Oswald Wright: I understand that these
fish are distributed to the lakes throughout the province of Saskatchewan.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We do distribute
these small fish throughout the province as far as we can.


Henry Oswald Wright: Under what system is
this distribution made?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: After consultation with the local fishery officer, we supply-the small fry to the waters we consider best adapted to their culture.


Henry Oswald Wright: How is that determined? Is an analysis made of the waters?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The local fishery officer out there is perfectly familiar with the waters, and what with his advice and the knowledge of the officers of my department, we are able to come to a decision.


William Stevens Fielding: What fish-breeding
establishments are there in Nova Scotia?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There are establishments at Bedford, Margaree, Windsor, Middleton, and Lindloff, near St. Peters.


Alexander William Chisholm: Has the minister any information as to whether there is any improvement in salmon fishing along the coast since the hatchery at Margaree was built?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Conditions have changed in Margaree, and the fish coming to that particular river have been far from satisfactory within the last two years.


Alexander William Chisholm: That is not really the information I am after. The Margaree has been a very good salmon fishing river in years past, and when I was a boy its waters teemed with salmon. Of recent years, however, this particular industry has gone down considerably. I am not at all attributing this to the fact that therd is a hatchery on the river, but it has often occurred to me that it would be a good idea for the minister, through his officers, to study conditions there. It is too bad that a large amount of money should be expended keeping a hatchery going there if the salmon are becoming scarcer every year. The minister says that salmon are scarce in the Margaree river. I think what he has in mind is the fact that the hatchery has not all the salmon it would 
like to get for spawning purposes. That is not due entirely to any scarcity of salmon in the river; it is due to other conditions. I fear that perhaps the trap has not been set early enough, and I suspect that it has not been operated as correctly as it should be. That would explain the situation. There is an abundance of salmon there to fill all the hatcheries in Canada in the fall of the year.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The matter has already been referred to the Biological Board, with instructions to them to make a thorough investigation and to report accordingly. If, as the hon. member says, there are plenty of salmon, there must be something wrong.


Alexander William Chisholm: We have two kinds of salmon, spring salmon during June, July and August, which is the important variety in Margaree, and fall salmon. The spring fishing has gone down within the last four or five years, although it was a successful industry in the past.


William Stevens Fielding: Although I am not much of a fisherman myself, I know that in earlier years Margaree was considered the finest fishing river in Nova Scotia, and even to-day it is the second best river in the province. There is a successful industry in the Medway and in the Liverpool river, but in the latter they suffer from a multiplicity of dams, although the minister is trying to remedy that difficulty. I can say that the salmon fisheries in these three rivers, two of which are in my constituency, have been a source of much profit to fishermen, and they are a branch of our public affairs that well deserves all the consideration the minister can give them.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The information
given by the member for Inverness (Mr. Chisholm), regarding spring salmon is correct, and is in accordance with our own experience; but we are referring the whole matter to the Biological Board and hope to be able to devise some means of improving conditions.


John Frederick Johnston: In reference to the question asked by the member for Battle-ford (Mr. Wright), are other varieties besides whitefish, bred in the province of Saskatchewan? If not, why not?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The hatchery has been breeding only whitefish. As the hon. member comes from that district, perhaps he has some suggestions to offer.


John Frederick Johnston: I did not quite catch the minister's remark.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I find that the total for this item last year-that is to say the year 1920-21-was $365,000 and according to the Auditor General's Report the expenditures for that year amounted to $305,476 a difference of $59,524, and that the Estimate for 1921-22 is for the same amount $365,000, or practically twenty per cent more than what was required for last year. This is a large difference, and I cannot see the reason for asking a vote for so much more than experience has shown to be required. I would like to know what explanation the minister has to give.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There is not very much difference between the vote asked for and the actual expenditure for last year. The figures I have are only up to February 28, and they show an amount of $332,085 as having been expended. To this we would have to add the expenditure for the month of March which would only make a difference of possibly $15,000 between~the vote we are asking and the actual expenditure.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: That is quite satisfactory. I find on page R-76 of the Auditor General's Report for 1919-20 some items as to which I would like an explanation. Would it be in order for me to put these questions, Mr. Chairman?


Georges Henri Boivin: Yes, if they have reference to this matter.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I find in the first place at the page of the Auditor General's Report already given, under the heading of advertising, an amount of $288.25. Further down the page appears an item of $952.32 for printing and stationery, and the two items total $1,240.57. I would like to know the reason of so much expenditure on advertising?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: :Would my hon. friend tell me what appropriation these amounts have been charged to?


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: To "Fish Breeding;
General Account."	.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I have not the information regarding the past year's transactions before me but it may have been for calling for tenders for the erection of hatcheries.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I would consider this a very large expenditure for an item of that
kind but I suppose we will have to let it go with the explanation given by the minister. I find another item on the same page, charged to the same account:
Fooks, Harry, Agassiz, B.C.; funeral expenses of the late Lawrence Ogilvie, $297.65.
What relation has this to fish breeding?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: One of our employees named Mr. Ogilvie was drowned while on official duty and that was the compassionate allowance paid to his heirs. If there is any other information my hon. friend wants I would be very glad to look up last year's figures and send it to him.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: There are two other items I would like to make inquiry about:
Burton, L. J.; Expenses locating site for salmon hatchery in East Nova Scotia, $401.52; sundry expense, $13.25, $414.77.
That seems a large amount to pay for a trifling bit of work of that kind.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It costs a good deal for travelling and hotel expenses, and that is what that amount is for.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: There is another item under the same heading of "Fish Breeding" :
Gowan, G. H., K.C., Vancouver, legal expenses in connection with fisheries inquiry before Mr. Justice Eberts, $2,289.
MacEay, P. J.; Vancouver; transcribing proceedings held before Mr. Justice Eberts, $1,176.90.
What was the nature of this work?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Mr. Justice Eberts was instructed to look into matters in district No. 3, British Columbia. The first amount my hon. friend mentioned was for legal expenses paid to Mr. Cowan.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: What was the object of the investigation?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Charges of irregularities made against certain fishery officers out there which justified my department in asking Justice Eberts to hold an investigation. He did so but his report has not yet been submitted to us.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: The investigation was held in the year 1919-20, and the judge has not yet reported whether the charges were sustained or not?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No. My hon.
friend may be interested in learning that no later than to-day I was endeavouring to stir the matter up. It is now in the hands of our own Justice De-



partment and the Minister of Justice is doing everything he can to have the report forwarded. There has been a long delay.


John Frederick Johnston: A moment or two
ago I asked the minister if his department had introduced the breeding of any other varieties of fish than white fish in the province of Saskatchewan. I did not hear the minister's reply but he asked me for some suggestions.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


John Frederick Johnston: Will the minister be
good enough to answer my question as to whether the department has ever attempted anything in the direction of breeding other varieties of fish?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: My answer is
"No". We have never attempted the breeding of other fish than white fish.


John Frederick Johnston: Reports have been
made to me that other varieties of fish would do pretty well in the inland waters of Saskatchewan, and it has been .suggested that the people out there be supplied with fry of dore, pickerel, and bass.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I do not intend to make any definite promise, but it is the intention of my department to move in the direction that my hon. friend has suggested almost immediately.


William Duff: The amount asked for this particular service is a very large one- $365,000, and I think that before the item passes some consideration should be given to it. I have taken some interest in the matter of fish culture and I have accumulated a good deal of information that I would like to place before the committee. However, on account of the fact that my throat is in bad condition and I am not able to articulate very plainly, and also in view of the fact that the attendance of members is very small, I would like the minister to be good enough to allow this item to stand and permit the discussion on it to take place later. In the meantime, in order to show the minister how seriously I regard this matter, I may tell him that I believe the most of this money is absolutely wasted. I should be most happy to lay my views before the committee to-night but unfortunately I am not able to do so.


William Stevens Fielding: I hope the minister
will be able to comply with the request of the hon. gentleman. The hon. member represents one of the greatest fishing districts in the Dominion. He gives a great deal of attention to this subject, he has carefully studied it, and has information which,

I am sure, the minister will be glad to receive.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am very sorry
my hon. friend's throat is in the condition it apparently is, and on account of that I will be glad to pass the item over.
Item stands.
To provide for scientific investigation into practical economic problems connected with the fisheries, $15,000.


William Stevens Fielding: Mr. Chairman, I think under that item I would be in order if I called the attention of the minister to the question-the very vexed question as it has been in times past-of the lobster season. I know he has given it a great deal of study and has made very earnest efforts to meet the wishes of the various sections of the country. Unfortunately regulations which will suit in some districts do not suit in others. I think he may very fairly claim that in the main his regulations have given satisfaction over a very considerable district. There is, however, a section of the province which feels that it ought to have the privilege of fishing in the early winter season. The lobster season in the western section of Nova Scotia begins the first of March. The winter season is so expensive in eastern Nova Scotia that no fishing in the winter is desired, no matter-what season you allow them there, because of the cost of equipment and the danger from storms. But in my counties of Shelburne and Queen's and notably Shelburne, the people can carry on a very considerable fishing season in the months of No.vember and December, when lobsters are very much in demand in the American market. The geographical position of the county is such that the fishermen have easy access to the American market, and during the past winter it has been felt to be quite a hardship that during several months when there is absolute idleness in the fishing districts, they should be deprived of lobster fishing. That is notably so in Shelburne county and in the western part of Halifax county. In some sections of the western part of Halifax county the fishermen are not at any time too prosperous, and during the past winter I think representations were made to the minister that'the absence of winter fishing worked a very great hardship to them. Some other kinds of the fishing business had not prospered and the fishermen were exceedingly anxious to be allowed to conduct winter fishing in that section.
I have also a stronger reason to urge the minister to reconsider the question in re-

spect to the counties of Shelburne and Queen's. It is said very often: "What is the use of having this winter season? The cost of equipment and damage to the gear is such that very little fishing would be done." Well, those who do not want winter fishing need not take it; it is not compulsory. But there is a very considerable section in the county of Shelburne which would highly appreciate this winter fishing, and men engaged in the business are firmly persuaded that no injury would result to any other section of the province. I do not say this in a complaining spirit, for I know the difficulties of the matter, the conflict between the different sections, and I know the effort the minister made by calling a convention at Halifax in order to get the best advice available. He carried out the conclusions which that convention reached. That convention, however, was very largely a packers' convention; unfortunately the fishermen were not very generally represented. At all events, I would ask the minister, notwithstanding his refusal in the past to allow any winter fishing-I am not complaining of that refusal-whether he cannot consider hereafter permitting winter fishing to such portions of the province as are willing to avail themselves of it. The men engaged in lobster fishing do very well in a short time, and therefore perhaps do not give as much attention as they should to other branches, but it is a fact that during the winter season a very large number of our fishermen are idle, and that at a time when they should be earning a very considerable amount of money in lobster fishing without any great disadvantage to any other part of the province.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The question of
winter lobster fishing that my hon. friend has just brought to my attention again is well worth further consideration by me and the technical officers of the department. I will be very glad to go very carefully into it again and let my hon. friend know if it is not possible to meet his wishes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
International Commission, Fraser River, $10,000. . [DOT]
Mr. DENIS:: What is this International Commission?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: An International
Commission was appointed in 1918 to visit British Columbia and look into the salmon conditions there. An agreement was drawn up and is now before the American Senate. It did receive the approval of President
139i
Wilson, but it will not come into effect until it is approved by the American Senate. It will also have to be approved by this House. The matter is just in statu quo. We are asking for the vote in the hope that the American Senate will approve of the agreement, and then the matter will be brought before this House.


Jean-Joseph Denis: How are the expenses of this Commission divided between the two nations interested, Canada and the United States?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The treaty provides for the appointment of an International Commission composed of four members, two from each country, to conduct investigations into the life history of the. salmon, hatchery methods, suitable ground conditions, and other related maters, and to recommend to their respective governments any modifications or additions to or substitutions for the appended regulations which may be found desirable.


Jean-Joseph Denis: It is according to a treaty?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.
, Item agreed to.
Marine Biological Board of Canada, $42,000.


Arthur Bliss Copp: This seems to be quite a large item and I do not understand just exactly what it is for. I hold in my hand the Auditor General's Report, and at page R-76 I find a statement of expenditure at St. Andrew's, N.B., amounting to $16,894.59. I think the head of the institution is Dr. A. G. Huntsman. What work is being done there?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The work of the
Biological Board is purely scientific-looking into fish life and matters pertaining thereto. The expenditure for last year amounted to $26,000. We are asking for $16,000 more because the accommodation at the St. Andrew's biological station will have to be increased. The gentlemen composing this Board are professors of our leading universities, and they give their services gratuitously, the Bilogical Board paying their travelling expenses when they are called to meet at Ottawa.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Do they prepare and distribute reports?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Where can we get those reports?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I have not one at hand, but I will be glad to mail a copy to my hon. friend.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I would like to see what work is being done at the St. Andrew's station. The minister should be able to advise the committee if this work is of importance and is of any advantage to the fishing industry.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I find on page R-77 of the Auditor General's Report a reference to " brass messengers." Would the minister tell me what these are?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I do not know just what they are-probably something used in the laboratory.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Civil government-Marine and Fisheries- salaries, $360,810 ; contingencies, $68,870.
Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I find in the details of this item provision for one purchasing agent, $3,900; one assistant purchasing agent, $2,800; one junior purchasing agent, $2,100; one senior supplies clerk, $2,600; one supplies clerk, $1,600; one at $1,$250; one at $1,200; total, $15,450. What are the duties of these purchasing agents? I have been informed by ministers of other departments that similar purchasing agents in their departments merely make out the requisitions and pass them on to the Purchasing Commission and there their duties end. Is that the case with these officers of my hon. friend's department?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The purchasing
agent of the Department of Marine attends to all the details which would be looked after by any purchasing agent. He deals with the requisition, makes sure that the quantity is not too much and that the articles in question are really needed; calls for public tenders and gets everything in shape for the submission to the deputy minister and also to myself as minister. After that is done, the matter is passed to the Purchasing Commission for final decision.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Then of what value is the Purchasing Commission in a transaction of that kind? What service do they render for the $80,000 odd which is being appropriated for their expenses? Could this work not he performed by the organization already in operation in my hon. friend's department, without the services of that Purchasing Commission?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: My opinion, of course, would be the same as that expressed on behalf of the Government by my colleague the Minister of Justice (Mr. Doherty). There are statutes governing the powers of a minister, but I do not think it was ever claimed that the Purchasing 
Commission had statutory authority. They were given certain powers, however, by Order in Council; their business is to collaborate all the statistics and work in the closest harmony with all the purchasing clerks connected with the various departments. Their work is of a supervisory character, the details being very largely attended to by the department.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I understand from the minister that these purchasing operations are supervised by the deputy minister and that in some cases the minister himself has to pass upon them. Why, then, the necessity of the Purchasing Commission? The minister has in his department a number of officials designated as senior, junior and assistant purchasing clerks, supplies clerks, and so on, costing the country some $15,000 a year. These officials appear to he performing the necessary duties in connection with purchases. The purchasing agent himself receives a salary of $3,900 a year, with bonus in addition. If he is a real purchasing agent he is not sufficiently paid; if he is merely a requisition clerk he is getting too much. But it would seem that the work would be just as well done by the organization under the supervision of the deputy minister, and in some cases of the minister himself; and the only conclusion I can come to is that the Purchasing Commission is an unnecessary expense and that the Government should dispense with it at once.


James Alexander Robb: It appears from what the minister says that after tfie requisitions are prepared by this official and submitted to the deputy minister and then to the minister they are passed along to the Purchasing Commission. Is it to be inferred from this that the Purchasing Commission may override the decision of the minister?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Minister of Marine and of the Naval Service is governed by statute; the Purchasing Commission would have no authority to over-ride his decision. But it was the experience that the War Purchasing Commission effected large savings and the Government thought it wise to continue, not the same personnel, but a purchasing commission as a supervisory body. They have more freedom than other departments that are not working under statutes like the Minister of Marine.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Ballantyne tbp House adjourned at 10.38 p.m.

Monday, 18th April, 1921.