1918-04-23

REPORTS AND PAPERS.

[Stage Direction]
Report of the Department of Public Printing and Stationery for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1917-Hon. Mr. Burrell.
Memorandum No. 4 respecting the work of the Department of Militia and Defence from January 1, 1917 to December 31, 1917. -Major-General Mewburn.
Copy of Order in Council dated 3rd April, 1918, respecting the reservation of Dominion lands for disposition under the Soldiers' Settlement Act.-Hon Mr. Meighen.
Copy of Orders in Council approving regulations adopted by the Canada Registration Board.-Mr. McCurdy.

Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: It appears that the resolution adopted by the House on the 18th instant with regard to the business of the House, in the form in which it was

passed, does away with the Order for Private Bills on Monday. I therefore move:
That the resolution adopted toy the House on 18th April, 1918, toe amended so that it shall read:
That on Monday the 2'9th day of April and on suibsequent Mondays until the end of the Session, Government Notices of Motion and Government Orders shall have precedence after Questions and Notices of Motion for the Production of Papers.


Mr. LEMIEUX:: I was ready to proceed with two different matters under the heading " Notices of Motions," but at the request of the Prime Minister and the Minister of Agriculture, I delayed them. I suppose that when the Estimates come up, the rule that we must not refer to questions which have already appeared on the Order Paper shall not apply.


Robert Laird Borden: If the production of papers is desired, they can be procured through non-controversial motions. If hon. gentlemen desire to discuss any matter included in a Notice of Motion, the motion can be dropped and the matter brought up on the Estimates.
Mr. SPEAKER': The difficulty could be obviated by a motion on a future day that the Notice of Motion in question he discharged from the Order Paper.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
*	MILITARY SERVICE.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. EDMOND PROULX (Prescott):: I have been asked by several of my'constituents whether the Order in Council passed on December 3 last still stanas. In view of the declaration made by the Minister of Militia at Hamilton last Saturday, when he emphasized the importance of food production, I should he glad if he would inform the House whether he will continue to release from military service farmers between the ages of 20 and 22, liable to the Order in Council recently passed, who are indispensable to the work of food production.
Major-General MEWBURN: My powers are limited entirely to the Order in Council passed last week; I cannot go beyond the powers therein defined.


Edmond Proulx: I did not understand that the Order in Council of December 3 had been repealed.
65|
Major-Genera] MEWBURN: Under the Order in Council recently passed, there will be no exemptions within the ages as called out. I assume that the Order in Council will still be operative in respect of those classes under the Military Service Act whose exemptions have not been specifically cancelled by the recent Order in Council.



WAR GRANT-5500,000,000.

[Stage Direction]
House .again1 in. Committee on Bill No. 38, for granting to Hie Majesty aid for military and naval defence, Mr. Boivin in.the Chair :
On section 2-payment of 5500,000,000 may be made:
Mr. CASiGRAIN:	I .am informed that,
some time last fall, in the case of Charles, alia® "Ti-Noir" Desjardins, that was pending before the police court at Montreal, the Government of Canada wrote the Department of Justice and deposited as security for bail-
Robert Laird Borden: If my hon. friend will pardon me .a moment, with all deference to him, I do not think the matter which he, proposes to bring before the committee can properly be brought up now. It can, of course, toe brought up on the Estimates of the Department of Justice. It has, so far as I understand, no relation whatever to this appropriation. There will toe ample scope on the Estimates of the Department of Justice for discussing the matter to the fullest extent desired.


Mr. CASGRAIN:: I am informed on reliable authority that the cheque which was deposited in the court at that time had the word "war" printed on. it, and that is why I should like to 'bring up this matter at the present juncture, because it would appear, toy the very fact of the word "war" being pripted on. the cheque, that the money would come out of the War Appropriation.


Robert Laird Borden: I have not seen the cheque, and. I do not know what was marked on it; tout, even if that be so, the proper time for discussing this matter would be upon the Estimates of the Department of Justice. This appropriation is very urgently needed at the present time, and as there is a full opportunity to discuss the matter then, I see no reason why this appropriation should be delayed, now.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Would it be possible
for the Prime Minister to set a day or to give us some opportunity of discussing this

matter, as we shall have no more private members' day this session.


Robert Laird Borden: This is not a
matter pertaining to private members' day; it can be discussed, as long and as fully as the hon. member desires upon the Estimates of the Minister of Justice.
Mr. OA18GRAI1N:	I am bringing this
matter up now because, if I bring it up on the Estimates of the Department of Justice, the objection will be raised that it is a matter that appertains to the Militia Department, and I shall not be permitted to discus:? it.
Sir ROBERT BOiRDEN:	I can assure
my hon. friend that no such objection will be raised.
Mr. CASGRA'IN:	Very well.


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: One man satisfied.


Mr. MURPHY:: My right hon. friend
has intimated that he has satisfied one man. I wonder if I can add another one to his list. The Prime Minister will recall that, when this Bill was under discussion last week, I asked for certain information which I assume he has not had time to bring down. I refer to the promise made by the Acting Minister of Finance (Mr. A. K. Maclean) in regard to giving the details as to the publicity and advertising expenses paid out of the War Appropriation. If my right hon. friend has not had time to bring down the information I do not wish to delay the passage of the Bill just now, if he will be good enough to say he will bring it down.


Robert Laird Borden: The Acting Minister of Finance spoke to me yesterday about it. He said it would be available today, but he has not sent it to me. There are other opportunities on which full information may be obtained, and we shall not interpose any technical difficulty to obtaining that information. We shall regard it as entirely an open matter.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported.
SALARIES ACT AMENDMENT. independence; op parliament.
On motion of Right Hon. Sir Robert Borden, Bill No. 13, to amend the Salaries Act and the provisions for preserving the Independence of Parliament, was read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Sir George Foster (Minister of Trade and Commerce), Bill No. 50, to amend the Gold and Silver Marking Act, 1913, was read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. T. W. Crothers (Minister of Labour) Bill No. 57, to aid and encourage the organization and co-ordination of employment offices, was read the second time and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
On section 3-powers of minister:
Sir SAM HUGHES:: Who is the minister in charge of this Bill?
Mr. CROTHEiRS: Section 2 says that " minister " means the Minister of Labour.


Mr. CAHILL:: What means will be taken to aid and encourage the organization and co-ordination of employment offices? Is it intended that the encouragement shall come from the minister or from the provinces?


Mr. CROTHERS:: Section 4 provides that $50,000 shall be appropriated the first year for the purpose of encouraging the provinces to establish labour exchanges, and section 5 provides that the Federal Government shall not pay to any province a larger sum than is expended by the province itself in establishing and maintaining labour exchanges.


Frank S. Cahill: Upon what basis is the aid to be given as between the different provinces?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The moneys to be paid to the governments of the respective provinces will be in the proportion which their expenditure bears to the total expenditure by all the provinces for such purposes.


Frank S. Cahill: Am I to understand that if one province spent the full amount of this appropriation it would get $50,000?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Suppose that all the provinces together expended $50,000, and one province expended one-fifth of that, that province would get $5,000, or one-tenth of the appropriation.


Frank S. Cahill: Suppose one province spent $100,000 on labour exchanges. On what basis would you distribute this appropriation as between the provinces?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: That depends on circumstances. If one province spent $50,000

and the other provinces nothing, it would receive one-halt the $50,000 we are appropriating for the first year.


Mr. FIELDING:: When the resolution was before the committee, I called attention to a point which possibly was not well taken, but if it w'as well taken, it would apply just as much to the Bill as to the resolution. If the Bill contemplates the organization of offices at Ottawa, and I presume the Minister of Labour has that in mind, I would point out that this Bill provides for the entire appropriation Being paid to the governments of the different provinces. Section 5 says that the " -moneys appropriated for each year shall be allotted and paid to the governments of the respective provinces," so it would appear to me that 1 under this Bill not -a dollar of this money could be appropriated for any organization work in Ottawa. If that is the intention, the Bill is all right; but if it is contemplated to maintain any organization at Ottawa and pay its expenses out of this Bill, I would ask the minister to consider whether this Bill gives him the power that -he wants.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: It is the intention that the whole amount shall be paid to the provinces under certain circumstances. Whatever moneys may be required for the work done at Ottawa will be provided for in the Supplementary Estimates.


Mr. G. B. NICHOLSON:: Section 3 authorizes the minister to aid and encourage the organization and co-ordination of employment offices, -and to promote unity of methods -among them. If the underlying principle is to establish a system of public employment agencies, the Bill is all right, but as a -means of -meeting the immediate needs of the situation, in my judgment, it is not all right. I have had so-me little to do with employment agencies of one kind and another in a business way, and some little to do in endeavouring to keep in touch -with Government-owned or Government-controlled employment -agencies, and with all due respect to those who are responsible for their organization, I must say that they have not got us anywhere. If there is one vital question in connection with the distribution of labour throughout this country, it is to find some channel through which the employer and the man looking for work can get in touch with each other; and, so far as I know, in no system of Government-controlled employment offices in this country has there been any near approach to that desideratum. If we wait until we develop a complete organization
for that -purpose we will wait until the vital period, in my judgment, is passed. I hold no brief for any private employment agency or private institution of any description, but if it is desired to provide adequate machinery, and provide it quickly and effectively, by which the employer in the first -instance may get in touch with the man looking for work, and the man looking for work may get in touch with the employer, the minister has that machinery right at hand if he will but take efficient control of the private employment agencies. Establish a central clearing house, if you like, for these private employment agencies, and pass regulations under which it will be	necessary	for	them to report
daily to that clearing house the number of men	they are looking for
to fill the needs of employers of labour, and, on the other hand, the list of men on their books who are searching for employment, to provide information as to where that employment may be found, how it may be reached, the rate of wages, and everything else in connection therewith, I say that you have ready made machinery right at hand that you can adopt for this purpose, without the establishment of anything new, without going into any comprehensive scheme of interprovincial employment, and agencies working in co-opera-ticn, or in co-ordination, with the Dominion. All that may be well enough in its way, but it will take too much time, and I suggest to the hon. minister that they will take control of the direction of the private employment agencies, and make use of the machinery that they now have at hand.


Mr. HALLIDAY:: I would suggest to the minister that he make use of the Post Offices already established throughout the Dominion. A large board can be posted up in an office which will give the information. If a man wants to employ so many men, he goes into the office and buys a five-eent stamp for each man he requires, and his name is posted up, showing that he requires these men. If I require a position, I buy a five-cent postage stamp, and my name is posted up, to show that I require a position. We could have employment offices all over the Dominion, if we adopted such a system.	[DOT]


Mr. DEVLIN:: I find by the interpretation clause that an employment office means an employment office operated by any provincial government, and by section 5 the manner in which the moneys are to be paid out is stipulated. I presume that

this money will be paid out solely to the provincial government to maintain any employment offices they may organize. The minister, in answering the hon. gentleman from Queens-Shelburne, said that he contemplated the organization of a central employment bureau in Ottawa. I take it that this Bill does not cover that point at all.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: It is not intended that this Government should establish a Labour Bureau in Ottawa, but it is intended to establish a clearing house in this city. There are various kinds cf labour bureaus. You have some national labour bureaus, provincial labour bureaus, municipal labour bureaus, private labour bureaus, and some philanthropic labour bureaus. No country so large territorally as Canada has established a national system of labour bureaus. Great Britain has done so, but ' in territorial extent Great Britain is small compared with Canada. New Zealand also has a labour bureau, but she is a very small country. No large country has undertaken to establish and maintain a national system of labour bureaus, and it was not considered advisable to do so here. In Canada, five of the nine provinces-Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and British Columbia-have already legislated for the establishment of labour bureaus in the various provinces, Several of them have already established a great many labour bureaus. It was thought the provinces could more conveniently deal with these matters than the Dominion. My hon. friend will notice that this Act provides that agreements shall be entered into between the Federal Government and the provincial Government, setting forth the terms upon which they will be entitled to receive the sum due them under this section. We will provide for inspections, and so forth, in the agreement which will be something like the agreement that is made in agricultural matters between the Dominion Government and the provincial Governments-setting forth the conditions upon which they will be entitled to receive this money. In the province of Quebec already several labour bureaus have been esmb-lished at different points, namely, the cities of Quebec, Montreal, Sherbrooke, and two or three other places. In Ontario provision was made three or four years ago for the establishment of 'abour bureaus. They have already established them in all the large centres in Ontario like Toronto, OtfMr. Devlin.]	.	_	' - l
tawa, Hamilton. London, Fort William, Port Arthur and St. Thomas. They are doing the very sort of work that my hon. friend suggests ought to be done. Special provisions are being carried out by several of the provinces. Alberta and Saskatchewan have established temporarily for war purposes, especially for the purpose of getting the men on the land, these labour exchanges at various points in their respective provinces. At its last session, the legislature of British Columbia passed an Act to provide for the establishment of these bureaus, and they aTe proceeding to establish them right away. We expect to get from the clearing houses in the several provinces a weekly statement of labour conditions throughout each province at the different points, so that we will have, every week, in the clearing house in Ottawa a bird's eye view of the whole labour situation of Canada. It would be a herculean task for this Government to undertake to establish a labour bureau in each town and city in 'Canada, as five provinces have already legislated in that direction, it was not thought wise for us to attempt to establish a new system to conflict with that.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: Under clause 3 the Government has power to establish a clearing house. By clause 4 bonuses are given to the different employment bureaus in the province. By clause 5 the minister allots the bonuses in the proportion set out in that section, but there is no provision in this Bill whatever to pay for any of these clearing houses.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Does my hon. friend refer to the clearing house at Ottawa?


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: What do you mean by clearing house? There is no definition of it.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I was trying to explain a moment ago that we are going to establish a clearing house at Ottawa for all Canada.	.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: What do you mean by
clearing house?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: A house that receives reports from all the provincial clearing houses tabulates and circulates them.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: Can the Department of
Labour not do that, without establishing another clearing house?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: We may utilize the
department for that purpose.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: But we are trying to save money now.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: As I said to the hon. member for Queens-Shelburne, the expense of this central clearing 'House and the preparation of the forms, and so on, will be provided for in the Supplementary Estimates.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: We understand what a clearing house in banking circles is, but I have not heard anything yet as to the way this clearing house is going to operate. What is the method of obtaining the information and how will it be distributed?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: That is a matter that will be more fully considered hereafter. We will establish a clearing house hete to receive weekly reports from the various provincial clearing houses. They will give us a statement of conditions in each of the provinces and that information will be distributed throughout the country by some means-we have not yet determined exactly just how. That will be a part of the working of the clearing houses. The provinces will have clearing houses where in-fortnation and reports will be received from various places. For instance, in Toronto, they will have a clearing house for the province of Ontario at which information will be received from St. Tiiomas. London, Windsor and other places. It may be useful for the whole Dominion to know that there are a certain number of idle men in a certain craft in Halifax and that a similar number of men may be required in Vancouver. The provincial bureaus would not deal with a matter of that kind. They would not report to their sister provinces but they would report to us. We are in a position to see the situation exactly and to give the information which it seems to demand.


Mr. BUTTS:: In nearly every province they have Workmen's Compensation Acts or Employers' Liability Acts. Would it not be well for the Dominion to consolidate all these Acts and make one for the whole of Canada?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: If my hon. friend had been present one evening last week he would have noticed an Act passing through this House providing compensation for all employees of the Dominion.


Robert Hamilton Butts: I know; but these Acts are different in every province. If we consolidated them into one Canadian Act, would it not be better?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Does my hon. friend suggest that this Parliament-*
i Mr. BUTTS: I think so.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: -has the right-


Robert Hamilton Butts: Sure, I think so.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: -to consolidate the various compensation Acts?


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: If we are going to aid in the winning of this war in every way possible we must do so by conserving what we can of the taxes of the people and directing them towards war expenditure. The minister told me a moment ago that he could take some men in his department and utilize them for the purpose of collating the information that is to be got from the different provincial clearing houses. I can understand that. But what I want to direct the minister's attention to is the fact that he must have in his department employees who are at present free from work of any kind. I presume he must have had up to a few days ago. For instance, he had a cost of living examiner or commissioner. He found, for one reason or another, that he could dispense with this gentleman's services and he did dispense with them. I am not criticising the minister at the present moment for dispensing with his services. That may come up later.. But we know that he dispensed with his services and he has given the further information to the newspapers in Toronto that he would not be inclined to take him back because he had submitted what he had written to the Commissioner and he had received certain answers. If the commissioner was not necessary he should not have been kept on. He could not have been, necessary because he has not been replaced. If the commissioner was not necessary the staff employed by him cannot be necessary and therefore could easily be dispensed with. This staff, for instance, might be given the work_ of collating this information and some saving might be made in that way. On the other hand, we find that every time a Bill such as this is proposed, which purports to create some bureau or service, we have enormous expenditures. Take, for instance, the cost of the Food Controller's office. That is costing the country, I dare say, millions of dollars per year. There is a staff of hundreds and they are paid thousands and thousands of dollars, a great deal of which money could be saved to the people of the country and diverted directly to war channels. I would ask the minister if he has in his mind, as a result of the passage of this Bill, the idea of creating a new staff other than that which he has in his department in order to carry

on tile work of what he styles a clearing house, or if he will give to the House an assurance that no outside help will be taken in and that the work will be done by employees of this department under the salaries they are getting now.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The position occupied by Mr. O Connor would not have been created had it not been considered necessary for the administration of the Order in Council passed early in November, 1916. I thought it was necessary to have such a man as Mr. O'Connor in the department, and arrangements have been made for another man to take his place. I think the public interest will not suffer in the least 'by the appointment of the new man who is to take that place. I have no idea now of establishing a separate staff, but I am not in a position to promise my hon. friend that it will not be necessary to have one, or two, or three additional clerks in the department. I think I can assure my hon. friend that there will be nobody engaged in that department to do work who is not necessary, and when I tell him that the expenditure of the department has not increased in the last six years he will be satisfied that I am keeping the cost down as low as possible.


Mr. MORPHY:: I would like to have a little information from the minister as to the co-ordination of effort between the provincial governments and this Government. There is nothing here to compel a provincial government to establish an employment office or clearing house unless it wishes to do so. It must be by agreement, as I read the Act. Suppose a provincial government does not see eye to eye with the minister, does not create an employment bureau, or fails to come in to the clearing house, what provision has the minister against that? Does he propose to allow one-half of the Dominion to go without that operative machinery which will make a complete system? In case a province sdys: We will not have anything to do with this, has the minister any guarantee or assurance from the provinces that they will co-operate in this measure? Has the minister provided, in the event of the failure of a province to come in, that the Dominion shall open an employment office in such province so as to get the information and make the system complete? Has the minister any information from the provinces tending to insure the smooth and easy working of the Bill, which, on the whole, is commendable?

(Mr. CROTTHERS:	I can only say that,
so far as five of the provinces are concerned, they have shown a good deal of anxiety in this direction, and are moving forward quite rapidly. Two or three of the province's I have no communications with. But I think that thk inducement we are holding out in this Bill, substantially to pay to each province one-half of what it expends in this direction, will be sufficient inducement for them to do, as the other provinces have done, namely to legislate and establish labour bureaus. If they do not do so, it will be a matter for future consideration.
Mr. MIORP'HY: In that. case, I would [DOT]call the minister's attention to the fact that this whole scheme, if it is so necessary to be inaugurated now, would fall to the ground for lack of a comprehensive scheme covering the whole Dominion, and his Bill is only partially effective throughout the whole of the Dominion.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: We have practically
six out of nine provinces now lined up.


Mr. SUTHERLAND:: I have followed
with a good deal of interest the statements of the Minister of Labour with regard to this Bill. I quite realize that the Department of Labour should be the department under which the placing of labour could be most appropriately carried on. On several occasions during the past few years,
I have pointed out the conditions which have existed throughout the various provinces with regard to the placing of labour, and the abnormal conditions under which we are now living have intensified the situation, making it much more imperative to co-ordinate this system, and have a broad, comprehensive policy with regard to this question, rather than having it divided up among a numbeT of Governmental departments under the federal and provincial jurisdictions. I thought, and have contended for years, that the immigration department should not be coupled up with the Department of the Interior. Heretofore, the placing of labour has been carried on, I believe, almost entirely by the Department of the Interior through the minister and the immigration officials. Lately we have had a separation, and a Ministry of Immigration has been formed, and estimates have been put through this House increasing the expenditure under that department, L did hope that this new arrangement would accomplish the object I have had in my

mind for many years past, of co-ordinating and consolidating these various interests, but I am inclined to think that under the present proposal, we will be quite a little farther away from that idea than we were before. I do not believe it will work out to the very best advantage. The Department of Immigration, for instance, has in the province of Ontario, I believe, over one hundred officers scattered throughout the various counties. It also has officers in certain cities of the province to carry on employment work. Now, it is proposed to encourage the provinces generally to carry on similar work by making them a grant through a department other than the Department of Immigration. I believe that this method will hardly accomplish the best results. The placing of labour at the present time is a very important matter. It is referred to in clause 7 of the Bill, which reads:
That the offices shall endeavour to fill situations in all trades and for (both male and female employees
The Department of Immigration receives reports constantly from its officers in many parts of the province of Ontario and Western Canada, which are published. By arranging to * have another set of reports along similar lines come through, the Department of Labour, in my opinion, will not accomplish the best results, but will be more confusing. I believe this matter should be consolidated as much as possible. With the situation arising because or the drafting of men for overseas service, and the need by reason of this fact which will arise to place men in other occupations, it seems to me that this is a matter which, at the present time, should be almost entirely under the Federal authority, instead of being delegated to the several provinces.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I said the other evening, when the Minister of Labour introduced this legislation by way of resolution, that, on general lines, I approved of the policy of establishing labour bureaus throughout Canada. I stated then, and I repeat now, that my hon. friend seems to be a convert to this idea. On two>
different occasions during past sessions I brought the matter up by way of motion before the House, and on two occasions' the minister made light of the question. This year, I am pleased to say, he has accepted the views which were held not only by your humble [DOT] servant, but by many friends of labour in Canada and in the United States as well. My hon. friend intends to promote the establishment of these labour bureaus by a
money grant paid out of a special fund which will be appropriated to that end, to those of the provinces which will accept the principle of this legislation. He states that already six provinces have labour bureaus or employment offices. The amount to be appropriated is not large, but I believe that if well spent it may produce good results. There is no question that, in view of the reconstruction period ahead" of Canada, the establishment of labour bureaus will be very much needed indeed. The minister may well look to what has been done in this connection by the Mother Country and Iby Australia and New Zealand, where the labour element, I might say the Labour party, is to-day predominant. To any one of us who has read the speech delivered not long ago by that eminent British labour leader, Mr. Henderson, or the platform of the Labour party in England for the coming general elections, it is clear that in Great Britain labour will be the dominant factor before long, if it is not .so now. My hon. friend, however, does not seem to do enough, in imy judgment, for labour in Canada. I do not wish to play the demagogue, but in view of what must 'be done during the reconstruction period after the war, the Government should now take steps to provide for the interests of labour after peace is concluded. A more drastic and businesslike policy should be adopted than that which ;is embodied in the present legislation, commendable though it may be. When peace is declared, industry in this country and all over the North American continent will be disorganized and dislocated. Men and women who since 1914 have been employed in munition plants will be removed from these activities and virtually left on the street. Employers of labour will be forced, so to speak, to empty factories 'and plants which have been engaged in the production of munitions; men and women who have taken the place of soldiers in industrial establishments and manufacturing plants will be turned out, and the plants themselves will have to be remodelled. As was pointed out the other day by an hon. gentleman who is affiliated with the Labour party, a remarkably large number of men engaged in industrial work enlisted in the Canadian overseas forces. Imagine the condition of things when peace is concluded. Men and women now employed will be on the streets; plants will be idle for a time owing to the necessity of their being remodelled, and the soldiers will be returning to Canada, many of them anxious to obtain the positions they occu-

pied before they went away. It is good policy to provide for labour bureaus, but the Government must go one step further; they must foresee the conditions that will arise when peace is declared. The conditions affecting labour when this war is over will be much -more serious than labour conditions were in England and in France after Waterloo and the Crimean war, and after other great wars. Conditions of labour and employment after a period of war are always such as require serious consideration and attention. If the soldiers who return to Canada are not provided with work; if the operation of manufactories and industrial plants is suspended or interfered wtith, there may be unrest; the times will be revolutionary. The Government, therefore, should provide now for the better equipment of the labour of Canada when the war is over. How could my hon. friend better serve the interests of labour than by giving to returned soldiers and to persons now employed in labour throughout Canada a better technical education? The Imperial Trades Commission, in their last report to the British and Dominion Governments, made specific recommendations on this subject. If Canada is to take a lead after the war in the industrial battle that will then be waged, our labour must be equipped to meet its rivals on that occasion. Some years ago the Ontario Labour Commission made similar recommendations, and I see now that the manufacturers and business men of Toronto are working on the same problem. Not later than this morning I received from the Canadian Industrial Reconstruction Association an outline of the work to be undertaken by that new body. It will endeavour to assist in the development and extension of technical education. It will maintain a sympathetic attitude towards projects of land settlement. It will extend co-operation among rural producers and endeavour to improve rural conditions. It will give its support to movements, whether directed by leaders of labour or employers of labour, which aim at establishing fair working agreements between workers and employers and improving relations between labour and capital. Recognizing the equal rights of citizenship which women have acquired, it will seek to improve their position in industry and to cooperate, so far as opportunity offers, with women's organizations in investigating and improving conditions which peculiarly affect the domestic, social and industrial welfare of women. My hon. friend can take a [Mr. Lemieux.l
lesson from the programme of this Industrial Reconstruction Association. The Bill which we are considering is a good one, in a way, but the only power taken by my hon. friend is to grant to some of the provinces various amounts of money, based, I suppose, on population. Reports will then be made to the Labour Department in Ottawa as to the work of these labour bureaus. I do not see that it is at all necessary, in connection with the work of these labour bureaus to -spend any money -at Ottawa, because you have here the whole machinery of the Labour Department to collect the statistics which may come from the various labour bureaus in the provinces. It, therefore, seems to me that by this Bill my hon. friend does not materially assist labour and does not foresee the period of reconstruction which, I hope, is fast approaching.
I have just mentioned this Industrial Reconstruction Association programme. The manufacturers of Canada, are wide awake. They are looking after the interests of labour; they are looking -after the interests of the farmers; hut, of course, they are, in -their circular, also looking after the interests of number one. All this deep irfterest in the farmer and in labour is to conclude by the assertion of the rights of the -Canadian manufacturers to get from the Government a higher -tariff when the proper time comes. My hon. friend, therefore, should not be satisfied with establishing labour bureaus, he. should also see that a proper allowance is made to the various provinces in order to stimulate the cause of technical education in Canada. We have, in every province in Canada, a most intelligent class of labourers. I am sorry to say that only a few of the provinces have promoted the cause of technical education. It is technical education which has given England, Scotland, Germany, France, the United States, their lead in- thei industrial world. Off Canada is to follow that lead, Canada should do something towards equipping her labourers by imparting to them that very necessary technical knowledge. If you have in Canada a well equipped labourer, if he has, at the technical school, attained the secrets of his craft, you do not require a tariff for the'employer or for the employee. The Canadian manufacturer and the Canadian labourer, provided the latter is given the technical educational assistance which the labourer in- other countries receives, can compete with the world. I rose just to make those observations. I support the Bill, but I do not think that the Minister of Labour is

doing enough for the cause of labour. I hope that the money grants appropriated by this Bill will not be wasted. There is no need for more officers in the Labour Department at Ottawa. This money is to be paid to the various provinces for the establishment of labour bureaus. Let my hon. friend, through his correspondents of the Labour Gazette, gather all the data, all the statistics, and the grant would thus be wisely spent. But once more I say: This is, it seems to me picayune legislation. My hon. friend should be bold, he should assert himself as the leader of labour in Canada, and see that for the reconstruction period our labourers get the technical education which the Governments of other countries are freely giving to their fellow men of the working class.


Mr. BURNHAM:: It would be a great calamity if this legislation should not pass. It may be quite true that not all that could be desired is comprised within the four corners of this Bill, but if we are advancing we are doing something.
Section 3 states that:
The Minister is authorized and1 empowered,-
(a) to aid and encourage the organization and co-ordination of employment offices and to promote uniformity Oif methods among them;
(to) to establish one or more clearing houses for the interchange of information between employment offices concerning the transfer of labour and other matters;
(c) to compile and distribute information received from employment offices and from other sources, regarding prevailing conditions of employment.
Surely no one can object to that broad, general and comprehensive statement, and, at the same time, have a real idea as to the requirements and development of labour conditions in this country. If we do not have co-ordination, we have confusion. Coordination is, therefore, very plainly, absolutely necessary. It is also very plain that, in the past, we have not had co-ordination. That is one of the weaknesses of the Federal system of government. The rapprochement of the provinces with the Dominion is one of the most difficult of things to bring about. Therefore, everything that leads up to that, to the identification and consolidation of their aims and actions in a matter of this kind must surely be viewed with an encouraging eye. A clearing house for information is, of all things, the most necessary and the most sane. To sit down and discuss what is actually taking place means, with sane people, that the difficulty will shortly be removed. Not to have a clearing house means that when men sit down to consider
the question they will not really know what they are speaking about, and their actions will be in the future as thgy have been in t'be past, very largely a misfit and a misfire. People, scientifically minded, will at once admit that your information must be accurate and carefully gathered. Then, if it is not properly dealt with, that is due to the mental weakness and incapacity of those who assume the reins of government. But it is impossible for the wisest man, for the man with the moist acute intellect, to deal properly with anything on wrong premises, and unless such a clearing house is established no Minister of Labour can possibly do justice to labour conditions.
The third clause regarding the compiling and distribution of information follows from those preceding it. It enables the minister to deal with the problem of aiding and encouraging the organization and co-ordination of employment offices and the establishment of clearing houses, for the interchange of information between employment offices. The rest of the Bill, apart from the earlier provisions which I have mentioned, is merely a statement of technicalities. This is the first time, to my knowledge, that I have ever seen a determination upon the part of this House to clothe the Minister of Labour with ample power and to justify his existence.
When this Bill is passed and a clearing house is established, the minister will be ,able to find out just how and when and where labour should be employed, and he will have every means within his grasp for dealing with the labour problems of Canada. After he has made known to working men the conditions and circumstances throughout the country, it will be for them to come forward and deal with them in an individual way, and as loyal *and enterprising citizens, as we know them to be, they will do it. But if we do not empower the minister to deal with these matters, we are simply asking labour throughout the country to look in vain to the directing power. To appoint a Department of Labour under such conditions is really to mock labour, and to show that labour conditions throughout the country are not regarded seriously. It would be showing an entire lack of a scientific grasp of the situation such as, if it were exhibited in medicine or in law, would result in anarchy in those walks of life at once. It has taken years and years to sweep away misconceptions and to make the slightest progress in the way of a sympathetic coordination of the various rival interests

*in the employment of labour. Now, we have the chance to empower a 'apable minister *to look into these matters, and from the serene height of his federal position to tell the country what are the facts, and I say that to fail to give him this power and to back him up by such an Act as this, would be a calamity of the direst possible kind.


The CHAIRMAN:: I would remind hon. members that this is not a debate on the second reading of the Bill. We have had some excellent speeches on the principle of the Bill, but we are now in committee, and I ask hon. members to confine their remarks as closely as possible to the clause under discussion.


Rodolphe Lemieux: It was pretty late in
the evening when the Resolution was introduced the other day, and the House had only a few minutes in -which to discuss it.


Georges Henri Boivin: The second reading
took place to-day.
(Mr. G. B. NtlOHOLSON: I shall endeavour to confine myself to the clause under discussion. Before I heard the hon. member for Maisonneuve speak I was under the impression that this Bill was fairly simple, that it was merely to provide, if possible the means whereby the employer and the man seeking work could get in touch with one another. But after, listening to the hon. member I think the House must have got the impression that this Bill had something to do with a variety of subjects other than what is set out in the Bill, because my hon. friend dealt with technical education, the tariff, the reconstruction period after the war, the relationship of the Manufacturers' Association to the industrial life of the country, and many other kindred subjects. However, the clause immediately before us is to aid and encourage the organization and co-ordination of employment offices, and to promote unity of method among them. The minister has told us what the province of Ontario has done in the direction of creating employment agencies at different centres. As the minister said, the number is confined to about five , or six, located in Ottawa, Toronto, Hamilton, London, and one or two other large centres. I have no desire either to be captious or critical; I agree with every provision of the Bill; I think the Bill is vitally necessary at- the present time, but I must say that the machinery which the provinces have so far set up is utterly inadequate to meet the situation which this Bill is apparently designed to

take care of. I -would again impress upon the minister the necessity of approaching the provinces in an effort to secure their co-operation in setting up provincial clearing houses for employment purposes, and making use of the machinery afforded by the private employment agencies until the Federal Government established a system of its own. The minister has said it would be impossible for the Government to establish a comprehensive system of employment agencies, taking in every town and hamlet in this country, but some isueh system as that must be provided if th3 men looking for employment and the employers looking for labour are to be given the information they must have in order to get in touch with each other. Yon will find that from one end of this province to the other-and I think I know something of what I am talking about-the large employers of labour are constantly in touch with the employment offices, not only in the large centres, but in the smaller towns and hamlets throughout the whole country, and it iis only by that means they are able to get the necessary supply of labour, and that the men seeking employment can get in touch with the men desiring their help. I repeat, I do not wish to be critical of the provisions of the Bill, which I say is a step in the right direction; but if we want immediate results I would urge the minister to embody in his scheme the principle of making use of the things we have readymade to hand.
Air. DuTREMBLAY:	The principle of
this Bill is a good one, but in my opinion the Bill does not go far enough. It only seeks to encourage the employment offices already in operation by the provinces. I would like to see this Government establish employment offices where now there are none, especially in places where there is a great demand for them. I know for a fact that these labour exchanges are rendering a great service to employers and employees, and they should be looked after by the minister with great care. An inspector should be appointed to look into their operation, for I know of many cases where there has been difficulty in getting work through these channels.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Section 8 provides for an inspection.
Mr. DuTREMBLAY:	Not more than a
month ago a delegation from my county came to my office, and spoke to me regarding works that were to be constructed by the Government in Halifax, or, at least,

to which this Government was contributing money. These people had to disburse to 'certain agents or bureaus to be permitted to go to Halifax to work. They had to get into communication with the Minister of Labour, and, for some reason or another, they got no satisfaction. They were called upon to disburse ten or fifteen dollars before they could be employed at all. Such dealings as these should disappear completely. In large centres like .Montreal, for instance, different private bureaus charge the men foT obtaining employment for them. After three or four days' work, these men are turned out. They have to come back again to the agency and pay perhaps two or three dollars-which means a lot to them-in order to secure employment. I simply draw these facts to the attention of the Minister of Labour. I endorse the statements of the hon. member for Miaisonneuve in regard to technical education. It is a great thing for the country. The officers who are going to be appointed under this Bill should consider the question. It is absolutely imperative that this matter should be looked into, in the interests of the labour men. After the war is over, it will be very difficult to obtain employment. I suggest that a commission should be appointed as soon as possible to look into these matters, to ascertain how the labour men in this country may be employed after the war.


Robert Hamilton Butts: I have considerable sympathy with the remarks generally .of my hon. friend from Maisonneuve. I come from a county where nearly all the people are miners, or steel workers, and the labour question, as a general rule, is a very prominent one. I think when the Minister of Labour comes to consider the matter he will find that the Bill he has presented to the House does not go quite far enough. In order to have a labour organization that would be properly conducted, I think the Government should consult the different provincial governments, and* provide for a uniform system throughout the Dominion. Labour and capital are getting very wide apart. The .antagonism between them is becoming too pronounced to conduce to a healthy condition in this country. It is pretty nearly time we began to realize the present condition of affairs, and endeavour to bring capital and labour closer to one another. In this way only- can we bring about a healthy condition in Canada. Parliament should do something. I make a special appeal to the Minister of Labour, and urge him to get in touch with all the provinces of Canada and endeavour to frame
a uniform labour law. In the local legislature we have been dealing, year after yeaT, with the question of workmen's compensation, employers' liability, and kindred matters. These matters are important and ought to be taken seriously, without regard to politics. As sane men we should regard these matters as being pertinent to the wellbeing of the community and the Dominion at large. The Sydney Post records that a poor woman got a verdict from a jury for $35,000 for the death of her husband, who was as dear to her as if he were earning a million dollars a year'; but that verdict will, of course, be appealed to a higher court. If the judgment had (been for $10,000, possibly it would have been sustained. The other evening, when we discussed the subject of coal, some h-on. gentlemen said they were paying $10 a ton for it, when I obtain it for $3.90. I told you the other day about a man who had .a salary of $100,000 a year.


Georges Henri Boivin: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but I do feel that his remarks are very far from the clause under consideration, and I would ask him to address liis remarks to clause 3.


Robert Hamilton Butts: I beg your pardon, Mr. Chairman, but we were talking about the matter of capital and labour.


Georges Henri Boivin: This is not a discussion upon the question of capital and labour.


Robert Hamilton Butts: At the same time it boils down to that.


Georges Henri Boivin: I will have to rule that the discussion of the question of capital and labour is out of order. I regret to do so, but hon. members, this afternoon, have certainly gone far beyond the latitude allowed in discussions in committee. Some hon. members do not seem to have understood me when I asked them to speak to the clause under consideration. I hope I shall not be again obliged to call attention to this.


Robert Hamilton Butts: I think that the discussion this afternoon has been largely a debate on the question of capital and labour. I will submit to your ruling, Mr. Chairman.


Georges Henri Boivin: The debate so far would in some respects lead to that conclusion, hut it has been out of order.


Robert Hamilton Butts: Will you give me a little latitude? You have given latitude to all hands this afternoon. I intended to speak of the debate that took place here a few nights ago. Perhaps I am altogether out of

order, but as you have acknowledged yourself, Sir, that the whole debate has been out of order this afternoon. We had a debate the other evening about the high cost of coal, about which the people in Ontario complain. Just think of it-a Yankee comes over from the land of Uncle Sam and exacts from one of oiir small steel and coal companies $100,000 in yearly salary. . What can you expect? You have to pay for it in your coal. Through this Bill you have an opportunity of doing something to alleviate the ill-feeling that exists between capita] and labour. Every person knows perfectly well that nothing is more desirable than to bring about such a condition of things as will make it possible for capital and labour to go hand in hand together. If we can secure the adoption of a Bill which will result in a good understanding between capital and labour we will be helping the Minister of Labour to do something for the country that no one ever did before.


Frank S. Cahill: I do not quite understand how the minister expects to encourage the organization and co-ordination of employment offices. Is there any demand from the different provinces for this Bill? What would be the result if all this money were expended in one province? It would not in that case be of any assistance in the way of encouraging an interprovincial exchange of labour. On what basis is it expected that the money is to be distributed? Is there any encouragement to the provinces tc bring about such an organization or is it the intention that there shall be any encouragement offered to them? What is the purpose of it?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I am afraid I will not be able to throw any light on this subject beyond what is contained in two or three sections of the Bill itself. They seem to me to make it perfectly plain.
Mr. CAiHILL: I am very sorry to say they do not make it plain to me and if it is plain to the minister perhaps he will throw some light on it.


Mr. EULER:: I quite agree with the hon. member (Mr. Cahill). We have discussed this Bill for an hour and a half, or two hours, and I feel that the minister has not told us just what he expects to accomplish by its enactment. I do not understand what he is driving at. If it is the intention simply to relieve the provincial governments of the expense of maintaining labour bureaus we would like to know that. If, as clause 3 suggests, it is intended to aid and encourage the organization and
fMr. Butts.]
cc-ordination of employment offices in the various provinces, I think the minister should tell us a little more in detail as to what he has worked out in the way of co-ordination, and possibly co-operation, between the various provinces. I would like to see my way clear in a matter of this kind and I agree with him that a great deal can be done with proper co-operation and co-ordination of the different prbvinces. I would like to ask him whether he has himself, or with his officials, or with the officials of the provinces, worked out any definite scheme in detail by which he is going to proceed. If he could tell a little more about that I believe the Bill might carry quite readily and perhaps without such diffuse discussion as we have had here. Take, for example, the situation in our own city of Kitchener. We have there a labour bureau under the provincial government. We know very little about it in so far as the actual work is concerned of supplying employers with labour. That is done almost entirely by a private organization and the provincial body is very seldom heard of. If that state of affairs could be remedied so that we really received something for the money expended then I think this Bill would be useful. I would like to suggest that probably a good deal might be accomplished that would be in the interest of both employers and employees if the employees themselves, the workmen, whether through their organizations or otherwise, and the employers, were consulted as to the best means of working out the scheme which the minister has in mind.


Frank S. Cahill: We should have some light on this question from the Minister of Labour. At least, I am willing to sit here for some time until I do hear from him.


William Daum Euler: Would the minister describe the nature of the agreement which he is expecting to draw up with the various provinces, stating what points would be covered? Perhaps, however, these matters [DOT]would more properly come up in connection with clause 7.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I should be glad if I could throw any light on this matter that would help any hon. gentleman present to understand it, but it seems to me absolutely clear, so far as the disposition of the money is concerned. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Euler) asks about the details of the agreement which we are to make with the various provinces. I do not think this is the time to enter into details. We had better get authority to do something first by way

of this Bill. Perhaps my hon. friend will remember the Act granting assistance to the various provinces with respect to agriculture. No details were .set forth in the Bill as to the agreements that might be made thereafter, but agreements are made year after year between the Federal Minister of Agriculture and the Government of a province as to how the sum of money to be paid by the Federal Government shall be expended during that year. In the same way, the details will be gone into, between the 'Minister of Labour and the provincial government when this Bill is passed, and w.e know that we are authorized to make a contribution.
iMr. EULER:	I would ask the minister
whether it is the intention of the department to make a grant of this money to the provincial organizations, and to leave the initiative of the work almost entirely as it is, or whether the Labour Department, or its officers, intend to take some action towards initiating new ideas and schemes in connection with the getting together of employers and employee, and, if so, whether some definite scheme has been worked out, no matter whether or not all the details are already arranged, or whether the Department knows exactly what it is going to do in connection with the legislation asked for?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: If my hon. friend will take the trouble to read section 7, he will *get some idea of it. There have been several references to private agencies and to the use that might be made of private labour exchanges. These have not proved themselves satisfactory, generally speaking. One hon. gentleman mentioned some frauds perpetrated upon poor people by some of these agencies which charged them large sums o'f money. That matter came to our attention four or five years ago when I happened, for the time being, to be in the Department of the Interior. We made regulations then governing all these private agencies so far as their treatment of immigrants, went. We had no authority to deal with them in any other respect. We cannot abolish them. So little satisfaction have private agencies given in some places, and so much dissatisfaction have they given, that the, legislature of the province of Quebec has abolished them.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Abolished what?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: These private agencies have been substantially abolished in Quebec by the imposition of such very large license fees as would practically put them out of business.


Rodolphe Lemieux: If my right hon. friend will allow me:	The law in Quebec was
amended last session. Now, a fee of $200 is exacted from any one opening a labour agency. Besides that, there is a fee also imposed by the city of Montreal of $300 or $400 a year. There is a regular inspection also by the civic and provincial authorities. The effect is that only well-to-do people can open agencies.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Yes, I had the advantage of speaking to Sir Lomer Gouin a few months ago about that matter, and he told me that, in substance, these labour agencies had been legislated out of existence because they had proved unsatisfactory. However, so far as that is concerned, we had no jurisdiction over them, except where they were dealing with immigrants, and we provided that all of them should take out licenses from the central Government to .authorize them to deal with immigrants at all, and we fixed by regulation the limit of fee that they should be allowed to charge. It is not thought that private agencies are the best means of getting the employer and the employee together, and of securing for the workingman steady work. It is in the interest of the private agent to get the man out of work as often as possible so that he will come back to him and pay him another fee to get another job. Whether they are considered desirable or not, we have no jurisdiction over them, and we are not proposing to deal with them at all m this Bill. Neither are we proposing to deal with municipal labour exchanges, but only with exchanges operated by a province. My hon. friend from South Oxford (Mr. Sutherland) spoke in favour of a national system. As I said earlier iri , the discussion, I know of no large country where any such system exists. In Australia there is no co-ordination whatever, each of the States establishes its own labour bureaus, and there is no linking up between the governments of the various states and the central government. There is a Bill before the Congress of the United States now, substantially like this Bill. Heretofore, the various States of the Union have established labour bureaus, but there has been no connection between the Federal Government at Washington and the State governments concerning these bureaus. The Bill now before Congress provides for such co-ordination as we are providing in this Bill. Apparently some insignificant. points have caused the United States' Bill to be held up for some little

time, and the Secretary of Labour has undertaken-(there is a vote of $250,000 appropriated for that purpose)-to establish these bureaus at different points in the eountiv because of. the war emergency. One has been established in Seattle, and a few others are in operation. In neither Germany, nor Holland, nor other countries, do they undertake to manage a national system, but the central governments assist local states and municipalities in defraying the expenses of these bureaus. It is not intended by these bureaus to create employment; it never was so intended in England or anywhere else. The intention is to facilitate the means of getting the employer and the (employee together. We think that can best be worked out by the various provinces, and that we ought to assist them in that respect. My hon. friend (Mr. Lemieux) said that I had been converted to this Bill. Nothing similar to this Bill has been brought up in this House during my time here. The suggestion was* made that a national system should be established, but I thought that such a system w'ould be too cumbersome. I was not in favour of it when the proposal was made, and I am not in favour of it now. I think that the hon. gentleman who has been converted is the member for Maisonneuve (Mr. Lemieux). It is astonishing how enthusiastically he now favours [DOT]labour bureaus and technical education, although during the years that he was a member of the Federal Government and at the head of the Labour Department we heard nothing from him about labour bureaus or technical education. As soon as the hon. gentleman got on the other side of the House, however, he became very enthusiastic over these* suggested reforms and denounced us for net introducing measures to carry them out right -away.


Mr. PEDLOW:: Does this Bill not provide for a national system? I understood that the system was to be a national one, with headquarters in the office of the Minister of Labour.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: My idea of a national system is the establishing of bureaus in all the large and medium-sized centres throughout Canada, to be operated and maintained entirely by the Federal Government. We are not proposing anything of that kind.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On. section 4-money grants:
Donald Sutherland: I am under the impression that in Western Canada the De-
partment of the Interior has control of the placing of labour, while in the older provinces this work is carried on by the Provincial Government. Is* there any danger of overlapping as between the new Department of Immigration and the Department of Labour. The Department of Labour would naturally be expected to furnish information in all matters* pertaining to labour and to see that quick action is taken by the authorities to* ensure such placing of labour as is imperative under present conditions. The need for coordination was never more apparent than it is at present. We should have a uniform system. In Ontario the work carried on by the Federal and Provincial Governments has been overlapping to some extent. Sometimes you have, under the party system of government, a conflict between the two parties in connection with this work, and some jealousies may arise. But no effective system of co-operation with regard to labour conditions in Canada has been so far established, and I think that something should be done to accomplish this end as .quickly as possible.
Mr. 'CALDER: There is* no likelihood of conflict between the work done by the Department of Immigration and the activities of provincial bureaus which will be established under this law. Some time ago a conference of premiers of the various provinces was held at Ottawa, and this matter vas discussed. No intimation was made by any of the premiers-all the provinces were represented-that this work should he undertaken by the Federal authorities. They all felt that the provincial authorities could handle the distribution of labour much better than any central body established at Ottawa, or than any bodies over which the central authority here would have control. In the past the Immigration Department has exercised only a certain amount of control over all labour bureaus established in Canada so far as* the immigrant is concerned. That applies particularly to Western Canada. Immigration officers throughout the country have not interested themselves generally in the distribution of labour. The position taken by the member for South Oxford (Mr. Sutherland) is, I think ,the prpper one; that this work should be centralized in offices established by provincial or Federal authority-and it seems to me that the work should be controlled entirely by the provinces. A conference was also held at Ottawa at which all the labour organizations of Canada were represented.

Meetings were held on two occasions; this subject was thoroughly and exhaustively discussed, and the conclusion was reached that the provincial authorities could handle the work better than the Federal authorities. As I understand this Bill, it simply lays down the principle that means should be provided, by the giving of money grants to the provinces, for the establishing of these labour bureaus on a common basis. That is the main idea that runs through the Bill. Section 7 provides for an agreement between the Federal and the provincial authorities whereby that desired end may be brought about. Of course, the details of an agreement of that kind can be worked out only through the course of time. It took some two or three years to arrive -at the basis on which our agricultural grants should be made, and to come to a determination satisfactory to all the provinces. We may expect the same thing here. Representatives of the Federal Government or the Department of Labour must go to the various provinces, study the conditions, -and enter into agreements with them. As conditions vary in the different provinces, the details of the agreements may differ, tout if tooth provincial and Federal authorities enter into the matter in the proper -spirit, no difficulty will toe experienced in making arrangements under which this work will toe handled much more satisfactorily in the future. The member for South Oxford can rest assured that the Department -of Immigration will make every possible arrangement to prevent overlapping of work or duplication of expenditure. As the provincial authorities have agreed that this work should be undertaken by them, we should make an arrangement whereby they shall be left -in entire possession of the field, so that duplication or unnecessary expenditure may, as far as possible, be avoided.


Wilfrid Laurier: The appropriations to be made under this Bill are to be a matter of agreement between the Federal Government and the Provincial Governments. As I understood the hon. member for South Oxford (Mr. Sutherland), he alluded to the necessity of having some uniform rule. I wish we could have some further enlightenment upon that point. Why could not the rule as to the amount of the appropriation to be expended be uniform and be put into the Bill? Let me call attention to section 6:
6. The payments -herein-baf-ore -authorized shall, as to each province, be conditional upon agreement between the Minister and the g-overnment of the province as to the terms, conditions and purposes within the meaning of this Act upon and for which the payments are to be m-ade and applied, and upon such agreement being approved by the Governor in Council.
The governing words of the section are those "conditions and purposes within the meaning of thi-s Act." The conditions are very vague in the Bill itself. I wish my hon. friend would explain what he means by those agreements which are to be made between the Federal Government and the Provincial Government. He said that after a few years a basis was found. If a basis has been found, surely we ought also to have a basis for the application of those appropriations.


Mr. CALDER:: I am personally not in a position to give the information desired by the right hon. member, because I have not paid any attention to the details of any agreement which may be carried out, but I can quite realize that if it can be found practicable to do so, information along those lines should be given to the House. The House'should understand what the basis of this agreement is to ^e. I have no doubt that there will be no difficulty at all in working out an agreement with all the provinces. The main purpose of the Bill is simply to provide a means whereby the provincial authorities will take over the control of existing labour bureaus or establish labour bureaus where they do not now exist. That will have to be done under certain conditions. If those conditions are complied with, then the money grants provided by this Bill will be forthcoming, but I am not in a position to state what those conditions should be, because I have not given any consideration to that phase of the subject.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Section 6 provides that, an agreement may be m-ade subject to the approval of the Governor in Council. The general conditions of the agreement are set forth in section 7:
(a)	That the offices shall endeavour to fill situations in all trades and for both male and female employees;
That is the whole object of the Bill, namely, to'fill vacant situations.
(b)	That the offices shall make such returns and submit to such inspection as the minister may require.
Those are the two le-ading things to be contained in the agreement, the details cf which will probably be arranged under the regulations, for which section 10 provides by stating that the minister may



make regulations for carrying into effect the objects of the Bill.	[DOT]
(Mr. DuTREMBLAY:	Will the minister
tell us why he proposes to expend $50,000 this year, $100,000 next year, and $150,000 the following year? Why not reverse the amounts?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: We expect that the various provinces will be stimulated to establish larger numbers of those bureaus year after year, more next year than this year and more the year after next than next year.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Has the minister any idea as to how much the various provinces are at present expending on this department?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I am not able to give that information.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: That information might be a basis from which to judge as to the amount to be spent in the first instance.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: We are guarded to this extent that we* are to pay only an amount equal to one-half of what is expended by a province.
Mr. PEDLOW7: It would be germane to the question to know7, how much the provinces are at present expending on this work. Then w7e would know whether $50,000 w7as or was not sufficient to carry on the work the first year.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: If it is top much, it will not be expended.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 5-money, how allotted:
Thomas Wilson Crothers: As there may be some doubt as to the meaning of the latter part of this section, I am going to move an amendment. The latter part of the section reads:
But in no case shall the allotment to a province exceed the amount expended for the maintenance of employment offices by such province.
That might be interpreted to mean that we are to pay the whole sum expended by a province. Supposing a province had spent $20,000, then if we were to allot as much as it expends, it would mean we would allot the whole $20,000. I, therefore, wish to amend the section so as to make it plain that w7e are to pay only one-half of the total amount that is expended. I, therefore, move certain changes in the wording of the clause, which will make it read:

(But in no case shall the allotment to any province exceed one-half the amount expended for the maintenance of employment offices hy such province.


William Stevens Fielding: There are matters of detail which we cannot expect the minister to give at present. The minister, however, has to make a start in appropriating money to a province. For instance, the sum of $50,000 is to be paid in one year, and there is a proviso that no province shall receive a sum greater than its own expenditure. If one province were to expend $50,000, under that rule, it might he entitled to take the whole appropriation, but, of course, that is not what is intended. The minister will find it necessary, at the beginning, to make an allotment to thq provinces subject to the conditions he very properly imposes. My question is: On what basis will that allotment be made? Will it be by population?
Mir. GROTHEiRS: It was not considered well to base it on population, but rather on the amount of mbney expended.


William Stevens Fielding: If at the time the first , allotment is made no moneys have been expended, you cannot go on that basis.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: It is impossible to determine at the beginning of the year how much each province is going to spend. At the end of the year they will be paid on the basis of the money they have expended, if there is enough of this $50,000 to go round, but in any case the amount each province gets will not exceed one-half of what they have expended.	[DOT]


William Stevens Fielding: The allotment will only be made at the close of the year?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: That will have to be so.


William Stevens Fielding: And the local governments will have no knowledge of how much they will get until the year closes.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: They will not know exactly.


William Stevens Fielding: Not even approximately.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: They will know how much we are going to divide up, but they will not know what the other provinces are going to expend.


William Stevens Fielding: They know that at the most they can only get one-half of their expenditure, but they also know they may not get one-tenth.


Mr. JOSEPH READ:: I do not think there are any labour bureaus in Prince Edward Island at all.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: That is my information.


Joseph Read: ils this the same old game of robbing the little province by the sea to feed up the fatted calf in other parts of the Dominion? This is a very important clause, and it certainly does not show how the money is to be distributed. I would suggest that the minister look into it further.
Mr. DuTREMBLAY:	Would it not be
advisable for the minister to advise each province that this law is being enacted, so that they may take advantage of it?
iMr. OROTHERS:	I think it would be
a good idea to send them a copy of the Bill.


Mr.   DEOHENE@: In some provinces, employment offices may do a great deal <j>f work at little expense. In Montreal, for instance, the employment offices are run on a very small expenditure, and the same applies to Quebec, and no doubt to many other places. Under the present basis of distribution a province which spent a large sum of money in establishing a large employment bureau might get more than it was fairly entitled to, and might be doing not half as much work as the other provinces that were running their bureaus at less expense. I do not think the present basis of distribution is fair. Why not distribute the money according to population? Then each province would know how much it was going to get.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The condition my hon. friend is afraid of will be guarded against by the agreement that we shall make, and also by the inspection. We shall ascertain from each province the amount they expect to expend this year. We can guard in the agreement against any exorbitant expenditure such as paying the head officer of a bureau an extravagant salary. Then we shall have one or more inspectors going around the country to see that- these agreements are carried out faithfully, just as the Department of Agriculture has inspectors seeing tfiat the provinces carry out faithfully the matters set forth in the agreement with regard to agricultural assistance.


Mr.   DEOHENE@: There are only two
clauses which we know will be in the agreement, and they are mentioned in section 7 of the Bill. The agreement may be one thing in one province, and another thing in another province.


William Stevens Fielding: The object of the minister is a commendable one. He wants
to encourage local governments to do this work under proper supervision, but I am afraid the local governments will not know how much they are going to get, and consequently, the encouragement the minister intends to give them will n<^ be effective. They would not know until file end of the year how much their expenditure was going to be; they would know that at the most they could not get more than half of what they expended. They know how much they are not going to get, but not how much they are going to get, because the 550,000 has to be distributed amongst all the provinces. I heartily concur in the object of the minister, but I am a little afraid this Bill' will not give the encouragement to local governments which he desires.


James Alexander Calder: What the hon. gentleman states is perfectly true. The position, however, is this: At the conference in Ottawa, the provincial premiers felt that the time had come when labour bureaus should be under provincial control and not under the control of private individuals or corporations, and they intimated to us very clearly that they intended to embark upon that policy. I will go further than that and say that they never asked us for any assistance at all, but proposed to do this as a matter of policy in the interests of their own people. They felt that the labour situation in Canada was such at the present time, and would likely continue for some time to come, that it was absolutely necessary for them to undertake this work. Now for the purpose of endeavouring to have all . these labour bureaus established as far as possible on a common basis, and to have them working along the same lines, we thought it advisable to make provision whereby we could give them a grant, and we hope as a result to attain some measure of control over them with the object of co-ordinating the work. One of the things we expect to accomplish is to receive frequent reports from the provincial bureaus, in order that we may have reliable information in Ottawa at all times with reference to labour conditions in the various provinces, and as to the manner in -which these bureaus are meeting the conditions as they arise. I am quite sure that, in the working out of the details of this arrangement, means will be created whereby frequent reports will be made by the provinces, so that we will hear at all times of the situation as it develops in the provinces. What the hon. gentleman has said is very true, that at this time the provinces cannot know what sum of money they would require to help

them out in this work. I think, after the proposed scheme operates for a year or so, the law may require amendment, but it seems to me that until the Act i6 in actual operation for at least a year, we will not know what the provinces require. They will have to establish bureaus in order to ascertain what their expenditures are, and the details of these agreements can then be worked out. It seems to me that all we can do at the present time is simply to adopt the general scheme, in the hope that, if the necessity arises, we will get the measure in better shape after it has been in operation for some time.


Mr. ARCHAMBAULT:: Is there any serious objection to allotting the money according to population?


William Stevens Fielding: If the local governments are prepared to do this work out of their own good will, and do not attach any importance to the provincial grant, then the view of the Minister of Immigration and Colonization is right, but if the local governments are attaching importance to the federal grant then there is much uncertainty as to the amount which the Dominion is to give. My hon. friend (Mr. Calder) and I have been members of local governments and we know that these local governments are at no time * indifferent to a federal grant.


James Alexander Calder: I did not say the provincial governments would be indifferent to receiving a grant, but when we had the matter under consideration they did not ask for a grant. It seems to me, if we are going to devise any plan whereby the labour bureaus will be established, as far as practicable upon a common basis and the federal authorities are to have the right of at least, some supervision over it, and if we are to ask them to furnish us with information, about the only way we can do it is by means of a grant. We cannot compel them to do it. We can lay down conditions that they will not obtain the grant unless they are prepared to do so and so.


William Stevens Fielding: That is reasonable.


James Alexander Calder: This is only a small grant; $50,000 will not go far in paying for the administration of the bureaus throughout the length and breadth of Canada. One of the main purposes of giving the grant is to place us in a position whereby we will be able to exercise some supervision over the work o-f these labour bureaus, and at the same time endeavouring to establish them upon a common basis.


Frank S. Cahill: It would seem to me that the objection of my hon. friend might be overcome by stating just what amount each province would expect to get each year on the census basis. If it would amount to about $7,500 for each million people in the country, the province having two million could expect to get $15,000' this year and no more, and the province that did not avail itself of the generosity of this Government would not receive anything this year. In that way there would be an inducement to our friends in Prince Edward Island to establish such a bureau. After the first year the amount of the grant might be based on the understanding that other provinces were not in need of the money, and the grant to a particular province which required the money would he greater if these other provinces did not apply for it. If all the provinces apply for it, the province which receives, say, $15,000 this year might only receive half that amount next year. If we might limit the amount, and make it definite, it would be an inducement to the other provinces to establish the bureaus because they would be able to get this grant from the Dominion Government, provided they complied with the conditions, and I think each province might be limited to a certain amount.
MV. DuTREMBLAY: I do not think the proposition to give according to population would be advisable, because the needs of the province depend sometimes on the centres of population. Montreal is a large centre for employees. Employees are sent from Montreal to different parts of the country outside the province, and Quebec may have to- contribute more than .another province and therefore Quebec should receive a larger proportion from the Federal .Government. This is given as an encouragement to the provinces which may have a much larger population. After taking everything into consideration, I think the principle laid down by the hon. minister is a good one.


Joseph Read: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Archambault) is net taking into consideration the fact that if a province did not spend any money itself, it would not receive any. Consequently, the argument would not apply to that province. In Prince Edward Island, while we have not a regular governmental bureau, the people have been doing some work along these lines, but in a voluntary way. Last year I had the honour of being president of the Prince County branch of the National Service League, and we had a labour bu-

reau connected with that league. Other people were doing the work voluntarily. They were paying their expenses, working for nothing and finding everything, and they were doing it to help win the war. Bjit if the Dominion Government is going to set aside $50,000, why not set aside, in the way suggested by my hon. friend (Mr. Fielding) an amount pro rata to the population, and if the provinces do not use. it, they will not receive it from the Dominion. Then there would be that much more left for the other provinces. I think that our people will have a labour bureau, because the labour situation with us is more' acute than in any other province of the Dominion at the present time.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 6-payments conditional upon agreement between minister and province and approval.
Frank S. Cahill: Perhaps the ministers are prepared now to give an answer to the question which was asked regarding section 5. Do they not think it would be advisable to work it out on some basis not to exceed a definite sum each year for each province? I think this allotment should be made on a percentage basis' to the provinces and a definite sum stated foifthe firstyear.
If you pay one province this year $40,000, and then next year all the other provinces take advantage of this opportunity, the province that received the $40,000 this year, would only get $10,000 or $12,000 next year. If you put it on a percentage basis, according to the population of each province, you will be able to determine what each province will get if it earns it. If it does not earn it, it will not get the grant. As pointed out by my hon. friend from Prince Edward Island, that province will not expect to get any grant this year. Next year, if it gets in line, it will get a grant, but it will not know whether it is 'going to get any part of this expenditure because it may have to be extended to the other provinces.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: There is nothing to prevent the province of Prince Edward Island from getting a portion of this grant this very year. They can get it by doing something in the next two or three months to earn a portion of this grant. If you put it on the basis of population you might have one or two provinces doing nothing, and, of course, getting nothing. A proportion of this sum in that event would not go to encouraging the establishment of these bureaus. We would hold it here and it.
would not be used as we desire it to be used. We want to encourage the establishment of bureaus and we want to encourage it according to the work done in the various provinces. There is no probability that the condition suggested by my hon. friend who has just sat down (Mr. Cahill) will exist because there are five provinces which are pushing forward now under legislation to extend their systems by establishing a greater number of bureaus.


Robert Hamilton Butts: I do not think the province of Nova Scotia has any such expenditure as that, and if that is so, where would the fifty per cent come in? I know there was no provision made for it in the estimates.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: My information is that there is no legislation in Nova Scotia establishing such bureaus as these.


Robert Hamilton Butts: Then where would your fifty per cent come in-fifty per cent of nothing is nothing.	[DOT]
On section 8-appointment of officers:


Wilfrid Laurier: Has the minister made an estimate of the personnel which would be required for the carrying out of .this Act?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I have not considered the matter in connection with submitting an estimate to this House. It is very difficult-


Wilfrid Laurier: All the more reason to consider it.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Yes, it requires more consideration than I have yet given to it. This is a new departure, it will need a great deal of consideration and we will probably ask for a larger sum than will probably be expended.


Wilfrid Laurier: That is not a good reason but we will accept it all the same.


Mr CROTHERS:: We want to be sure we have enough.
On* section 10-regulations:


William Stevens Fielding: I think it is usual to have the regulations approved by the Governor in Council. In this case the minister is going to make them off his own bat. I have no doubt he will make them wisely but that is not according to custom.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I have no objection to that. I move that the following words be added to the end of that section:

Subject to the approval of the Governor in Council.
Section as amended agreed to.
Bill reported as amended.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.
On motion of Hon. Arthur Meighen (Minister of the Interior) Bill No. 64,. to amend the Indian Act, was read the second time, and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
On section 1-Will of Indian devising property to. be approved; land devised or bequeathed to non-resident on the reserve to be sold:


Frank S. Cahill: Will the minister kindly explain this section?


Mr. MEIGHEN:: As the law stands now, an Indian cannot devise his interest in the band property to any other than a member of the band. It frequently happens that his very close relatives are members of another band. This Bill will enable an Indian to devise his interest in the band property to any one outside of the band, but when that happens the- Superintendent General is empowered to sell the devised property and distribute the proceeds to the heirs.


Mr. E. LAPOINTE:: Do I understand that an Indian will be able to devise his land to. any other person, even if that person is not an Indian?


Arthur Meighen: He can devise in any way as set out in 'section 25 of the Indian Act. There is a restriction in that clause to the effect that the testator cannot devise or bequeath land in a reserve or any interest therein-unless to his daughter, sister or grandchildren-to any one not entitled to reside on such reserve. Consequently, his rights to bequeath are in no way restricted by this amendment. They are enlarged, but only to such extent as to enable him to bequeath to the same class of people, even though they do not inside in that reservation.


Ernest Lapointe: They will have to be Indians, though?


Arthur Meighen: No. The Superintendent General may sell the property devised to any other member of the reservation, and distribute the proceeds to whom it was bequeathed. That is to say, the heirs get it, but they do not get it in the form of

land, because if they did they would have to go upon the'reservation. They get it in the form of proceeds.


Ernest Lapointe: No matter whether the heirs are white or not?


Arthur Meighen: The law is not changed in that particular. There is no wider range given at all, except to the extent of enabling them to bequeath to heirs outside of the reserve. There is no change in the nature of the Act.


Ernest Lapointe: It has been enlarged, because formerly, if I understand correctly, no .devise or bequest could be made to any one not entitled to reside on the reserve?


Arthur Meighen: That is right.


Ernest Lapointe: So it would have to be an Indian?


Arthur Meighen: Yes.


Ernest Lapointe: Under this change, the Indian will be able to leave his property to anybody, but such land will have to be sold, and the proceeds given to the heirs. Is that correct?


Arthur Meighen: I have not made myself clear. The class of people to whom the Indian may devise is not altered at all.


Mr. McKENZIE:: Is that class defined in the Indian Act?
Mr. 'MEIGHEN: Section 25 of that Act reads as follows:
Indians may devise or bequeath property of any kind1 in the same manner as other persons :	Provided that no devise or bequest of
land in a reserve or of any interest therein unless to the daughter, sister or grandchildren of the testator, shall be made to any one not entitled to reside on suoh reserve, and that no will purporting to dispose of land in a reserve or any interest therein shall be of any force or effect unless or until the will has been approved by the Superintendent General, and that if a will be disapproved by the Superintendent General the Indian maiding the will shall be deemed to have died intestate; and the Superintendent Generali may approve of a will generally and disallow any disposition thereby made of land in a reserve or of any interest in such land, In which case the will so approved shall have force and effect except so far as such disallowed disposition is concerned;
The only alteration made is this: that whereas under the present Act "no devise or bequest of land in a reserve or any interest therein unless to the daughter, sister or grandchildren of the testator, shall be made to any one not entitled to reside on such reserve"-that restriction is removed. He may bequeath to others even though

they do not reside on the reservation, provided, of course, that the will is approved by the Superintendent General. But if he does bequeath to others who do not reside on the reservation the land must be sold and the proceeds only go to the devisees.


Mr. MICHAUD:: Where an Indian has married >a white woman, and has died without heirs, is the wife entitled to any interest in the land belonging to the hand? Supposing the members of the band tried to send her away from the land belonging to her husband, and she wished to remain, is she entitled to.remain there or not?


Arthur Meighen: That has nothing to do with the amendment, but the law of the matter is covered by section 26 of the Act. If the hon. gentleman reads that section, which is a very long one, he will see what becomes of the property of an Indian who dies intestate.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The object is to leave the reserve intact for the band?


Arthur Meighen: Yes and to give wider liberty of bequest.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 2-proof of assent to release or surrender.
Ernest Lapointe: Before whom was the oath formerly taken?


Arthur Meighen: An attempt had been made to particularize; various additions were made from time to time, yet the provision seemed still to be insufficient, because many of the officials designated as persons before whom the oath could be taken were not within reach. We simply wish to provide an omnibus clause so that any one who can take affidavits in the province is competent to take an affidavit in this case. Notaries were not included in the list. We want the section simply to read: "Any person having authority to take affidavits and having jurisdiction within the place where the oath is administered."


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 3-Indian may be summoned as witness:
Arthur Meighen: In a certain investigation Indians were advised by some ingenious lawyer not to appear, and he made out a very strong case that they were not " persons " within the meaning of the Act. We wish to avoid lawyers' fees in any further cases of that kind.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 4-direction of expenditures of capital of band without consent:
Rodolphe Lemieux: The powers conferred
by this section upon the Superintendent General appear to be very wide. As long as its deputy head is such a competent official as Mr. Scott, I have no objection, but we cannot always have Mr. Scott.


Arthur Meighen: The powers' go only to the extent of enabling the Superintendent General to arrange for the cultivation'-not for the expropriation-of Indian lands for the benefit of the Indians'.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I refer the hon. gentleman to the first subsection of this section.


Arthur Meighen: That merely provides
for the utilization of a >share of the capital of the band for purposes looking to the. improvement of the conditions of the band and their property, not to the taking away of any of their property.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I understand that if the band feel that the money should be used in a certain way, that the Superintendent General, who is the guardian of these wards of the nation, may decide to follow another course. Of course, the Governor in Council would not do anything contrary to the interests of the band. But these are very wide powers. I should have no objection if Mr. Scott were eternal, ibut unfortunately he is not.


Ernest Lapointe: Under the old Act,
no such action could be taken as is contemplated by this section without the consent of the- hand. The Superintendent General could not expend the capital money of the band without their consent, even for the cultivation of the land or the improvement of the reserve. To this first section, I think, there is mo objection; but subsection 3 provides that the Superintendent General shall have the right to grant a lease of lands in the reserve to a third party. May this not *lead to serious trouble between the Indians and such third party? The Indians might object very strongly to strangers going on their reserve, even with a lease 'from the Government, to cultivate their land. This is a very important change. Previously nothing of this kind cduld be done without the consent of the band.


Arthur Meighen: The departmental
officials do not anticipate that trouble. Still, the hon. gentleman has a very correct appreciation of the change that has been effected in the law. It is putting it out of ,the power of what one may call reaction-

ary or recalcitrant. Indian bands to cheek their own progress by refusing consent to the utilization bl their funds or vacant lands for their own advantage. The hon. gentleman is not quite right in his understanding that at present no such power in any respect is given to the Superintendent Generial. It is, in these two respects: Fo,r purposes, for example, of surveys or of drainage, the consent of the Band has already been dispensed with, or rather provision has been made that it may be dispensed with. We are simply extending that principle. It is necessary to do so now, particularly, in view of the production campaign that we have under way throughout the Indian Reserves of Western Canada. The Indian Reserves of Western Canada embrace very large areas of land far in excess of what they are utilizing now for productive purposes. We have well under way in that country a campaign _for the utilization of those reserves, for stock raising, -for grain production, and, for the present, of course, in many cases, merely for summer fallowing. But we do not want to have this campaign entirely at the mercy of the Indian hands themselves. We do not want to have those bands stand in our way and say to us: Notwithstanding the necessities of to-day, you must keep off all this vacant land unless we choose to give it u,p to you and ourselves forego the great privilege of roaming on it in its old, wild state. We want to be able to utilize that land in every case; but, of course, the policy of the department will he to get the consent of the band wherever possible, and to meet the bands in such spirit and with such methods as will not alienate their sympathies from their guardian, the Government of Canada. We do not anticipate that we shall come into very serious conflict with any band. It is'only the more backward bands that offer any objections at all to the utilization of their land.


Mr. STACEY:: In the case of a very
large reserve in which the band has been reduced to very small numbers, is there any clause in the Bill making it possible for the department to appropriate a portion of their land-actually to take it out of t their hands?


Arthur Meighen: No, only to the extent of enabling us to lease it, paying them the fair rental value of it, less the value of the permanent improvements. The title is not taken away.


Mr. MOLLOY:: The question of leasing
Indian lands has just come up. On_ what terms are those lands leased? This is the first year in which the question of enormously increasing production has been discussed. Many persons .have asked me for information in regard to the matter, and I have never received authoritative information. On what terms are the lands leased to actual settlers'and stock Taisers, and for what period of time are they leased? What goes with the lease as regards fencing? Will the department fence the land and charge a certain rental according to the number of head of cattle per acre?


Arthur Meighen: I cannot, for very obvi-oug reasons, give the hon. member any information as to terms. The commissioner under whose supervision all this work in the West is being done is Mr. W. M. Graham, late inspector and agent at File'Hills. Mr. Graham has been in the service of the Indian Department for between thirty -and thirty-five years. He has made a most conspicuous success of his Indian settlement work and of his management of the agencies under his control. The Order in Council which gives him his powers is very wide. It necessarily was wide. It would otherwise have been .impossible for us, at this end, with proper expedition, to fix_the terms in any individual case. Mr. Graham is given power to make leases himself on behalf of the department, subject, of course, to our approval. We depend upon him to get the best terms possible. We do not as yet know what terms he is able to secure. I have from him an intimation that, in respect of one reserve in which already there are existing rights, he is securing a per-head basis very substantially in excess of the per-head basis that we get from those who now have existing rights. It was his anticipation that he would get very substantial rentals in each case. It must, however, be kept in mind that his paramount object is to eeciire productive results, at the same time, of course, securing fair and adequate returns to the bands for the rental values of their lands.


Mr. J. M. DOUGLAS:: I wish to commend the minister for this section in the Bill. In the very centre of the district which I represent there is a large Indian reserve, possibly the most productive section of that country, served with railways and having every market facility. I should like to see this provision go further so as to allow the minister to give those lands for cultivation purposes as well as for grazing, because at this time, when we require

so much production, lands adjacent to a market and a railway are much more advantageous for purposes of cultivation than those further back from business centres.
I have listened to what the minister has said in regard to the powers of Mr. Graham.
I have spoken to Mr.. Graham in connection with his work in Western Canada. The only criticism I might make of his work there at the present time is that I am afraid he is going to get from the rental of those lands more money than they are worth. At a time when we need every effort put forth for the purpose of increasing the stock of this country as well as for the purpose of grain production, Mr. Graham, as I learned from my last conversation with him, is getting more for the grazing privileges of an Indian reserve than, in my judgment, the farmer can afford to pay. This, of course, is for the benefit of the Indians, and, from that point of view, no exception can be taken to it.
I hope the minister will allow, or instruct, Mr. Graham to do all he can to lease this land on, say, a five-year term for the purpose of cultivation, because there, are thousands of acres of land that are immediately adjacent to markets ' and that are lying absolutely idle and of no value whatever either to the Indian or to any one else.


Mr. TWEEDIE:: Does not this provision include cultivation?


Arthur Meighen: I was just going to say so. It includes provision for leasing for cultivation.


Pius Michaud: Under the old Act, I understand, the Government and the Indian could lease a quantity of land for the term of one year for the purpose of cultivation. Under this Bill does the Government expect to make a lease for a term of one, two or three years?


Arthur Meighen: The hon. gentleman is wrong. Previously we could lease for any term within the scope of the surrender obtained from the Indian band.
There was no limitation to one year, and similarly, there is no limitation now. I believe that the leases are being made for three years, and possibly in some cases five years, the intention being to cover at all events the period of great need caused by the war.


Pius Michaud: fs the consent of the
whole band required or only the consent of the owner of the part leased?


Arthur Meighen: If the man were the recognized owner of the part leased he alone
would have to be dealt with, but if the pro- ' perty belonged to the band the consent of the band would have to be obtained in compliance with the Indian Act.


Frank S. Cahill: Is it the intention of the department to make any provision for the Indians in cases where the larger part of the reservation is leased?


Arthur Meighen: The Indian is very fortunate; he has all he had before, and now in addition he has the rental for this land.
I do not think we need waste any time in sympathy for the Indian, for I am pretty sure his interests will be looted after by the Commissioner.


Frank S. Cahill: The Indian has only got now what we left to him after confiscating what we wanted. Now we are proposing to, take the balance of the rights we then reserved to him. The Indian may ask to be allowed to live on this land which he leases to the Government, but under this Act he will not be permitted to do so if the Government wish otherwise.


Arthur Meighen: I cannot agree with the hon. member that there has been any confiscation at all. I believe that the Indians of this country have been liberally and generously dealt with, and I believe it is the intention and spirit of the country to 'continue to treat them generously. That spirit is evidenced by this Act. Where the Indian does not cultivate his land we are providing that we may arrange for its cultivation, the title still remaining in the band. The Indian gets the benefit of that cultivation by way of rental.


Frank S. Cahill: But we are taking away his right of residence on the reserve.


Arthur Meighen: 
Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Suppose it is decided to lease an entire reservation, would the Indians still be allowed to trap and hunt over the reserve or would they have to leave the reserve entirely?


Arthur Meighen: We do not provide for that. We provide only for leasing the uncultivated part. Of course, if there are no Indians on the reservation we might lease it all, but that is -not what my hon. friend fears; he fears the Indians will be put off. They will never be put off under this Act, which only provides for leasing the unused areas.	.


Joseph Read: Are these shortterm leases?


Arthur Meighen: Yes.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Is it the intention under this Act to expropriate the land that is not heing cultivated and lease it to other parties who will use it for grain growing or grazing purposes?


Arthur Meighen: The 'intention is to
lease it without expropriation.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: It is practically the same thing. Then what becomes of the Indian?


Arthur Meighen: He gets the benefit of all the cultivation that he has heretofore undertaken and the benefit of all the land that he has been using for grazing, and all the other benefits coming to the Indian under the law. Now we are providing an additional benefit by giving value to what had no value to him before.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: But will the Indian be
allowed to trap and hunt if the entire reservation is taken? If not, where will he go?
iMr. MEIGHEN: We will still leave him enough to trap on, but even if we did not thirty bushels of wheat to the acre is a lot better than a few squirrels caught by the Indian.


John Patrick Molloy: Did I understand the
minister to say that the land would Joe leased for the purpose of raising grain as well as stock?


Arthur Meighen: Yes.


John Patrick Molloy: 
Mr. COWAN:: The hon. gentleman does not understand the commissioner as well as I do, or he would not have made the statement which he has made. I have known the commissioner for thirty years, and I may say there is not a more competent officer. He will never permit any company, syndicate or individual to use the lands in any such manner as the hon. gentleman suggests. One reason why I support the Bill which the minister has brought in is because it gives Mr. Graham so much latitude. I know that the interests of the country and of the Indians will be properly looked afteT in his hands, and if there should happen to be any using of these lands in the manner suggested, he will quickly take the necessary steps to terminate the lease. I have been over a good many of the Indian reserves, and I know something about the hundreds of acres of land lying idle. I know that if any lease is terminated at any time for any cause hundreds of farmers would be only too glad

to take the lease and work the farm successfully. It is all veTy well to say you should give all this land over to stock-raising. If the land were suited for it, that proposition would be perfectly good, but unfortunately, there lare millions of .acres of land in "Western Canada in which grain raising is exclusively indicated and where ' stock raising would not be a success. A great deal of this land is of that nature. Therefore, I say, it is a perfectly propeT thing today to give a free hand to Mr. Graham, and let him use the land for grain raising, if it can be so used, and use such parts for stock raising that are as suitable. I have no hesitation in saying that this whole question of handling the Indian reserves is very properly placed in the hands of the 'Indian Commissioner, Mr. Graham, and it will be properly looked after.


John Patrick Molloy: I did not say anything
regarding Mir. Graham, I know him by reputation but not personally, and I may say no better officer is in the employ of the country than Mr. Graham, but that does not affect what I said in regard to the renting of the land. He cannot control every man who uses that land. What would happen if he died? Somebody would have to take his place, and perhaps we would not get -as good a man as Mr. Graham. Another point is that this land could not be used for stock raising, because a great deal of it is only adapted for grain raising.. Any land that will raise grain will raise stock, but a great deal of land that will iraise stock will not raise grain.


Mr. HENDERS:: I have the honour to represent a constituency where there is a . large-sized Indian reserve, and a number of the Indians on that reserve already own their land. The farmers adjacent to the land owned by these Indians are renting the land [DOT] year afteT year and producing grain on it. I know further that that same reservation has a lot of the very best land in the country on it for grain purposes, hut it is not suitable for stock raising because the water is not available. In order to raise stock your land must be adjacent to water, but you can grow wheat where you have not the opportunity of obtaining water. I have great pleasure in endorsing this measure.
Mr. J. S'. REID:	I congratulate the
Minister of the Interior for going as far as he has gone. I know a great many Indian reserves. In the province in which I live thousands of acres are lying idle, and
farmers having ranches alongside these reserves are only too glad to get leases of this land to raise grain and cattle. Perhaps there is a danger here that when we make an Indian a landlord and he rents out his land, he will sit back with his hands in his pockets and receive his rent, and it will tend to make him a little lazy. In regard to the land being polluted with noxious weeds, I do not think there need be any fear. That matter cap be attended to. As to production, we have many Indian reserves in Saskatchewan lying quite close to our railway towns, and I am sure this measure will greatly stimulate Droduction. J am very much in sympathy with the amendment to the Act.
Mr. 'CAHILL: If the onlv Durnose of the Bill is to deal with vacant land, there are thousands and millions of acres of vacant land throughout the West owned by large corporations, and why we should take from *the Indian his rights, where he is living on the land in his own way, to make way for settlers or renters, and leave to the large corporations their, lands which they are holding for profit, is a mystery to me. fl think if we are going to do any confiscating of land for the beRefit of the white plan, you should take the white man's land.
Mr. DuTREMBLAY:	Under subsection
3, when these lands are rented or leased, is there provision for a tender?


Arthur Meighen: Not necessarily, because there would not be time to tender in every case.


Mr. I. F. REID:: I do not wish to be misunderstood, and I may say I am not in favour of confiscating the Indian land, because I know by the last returns the Indian population is increasing, and there may he a day when the Indians will require all the land. But leasing and confiscating are different propositions.


Frank S. Cahill: It depends on how long you lease the land for.


Thomas Mitchell March Tweedie: night it would be absolutely impossible for him to cultivate more than a small fraction of these lands. In regard to raising stock on all these lands, the Indians would be unable to do it. They would not be able to finance themselves. Some criticism has been made of the production of grain. Some lands are not suitable for growing grain and some are suitable only for that purpose. If a man can farm successfully in any part of the Dominion, he can do so on the lands of those Indian reserves. In the early days when they were set apart, they were not accessible by railway. In the southern portion of Alberta there is the Stony Indian reserve, through which the railway now passes. The railway runs within five miles of the Sarcee reserve. It also passes right on the edge of the Blackfoot reserve, in which there are some of the finest agricultural lands .in Canada. The Blood reserve *at Cardston is in close proximity to the railway.
If a man can farm and make a success of it in Alberta he can certainly be successful on any of these reserves. It is hindering the development of the country to have this land withheld from cultivation. What affects the West affects every other part of Canada. I am sure that what is being done by the Government this year in opening up portions of these reserves will assist very materially in, increasing the output of grain in these three western provinces. I think this amendment is entitled to the support of every member of the House, there being no question of the confiscation of Indian lands in it.	[DOT]


Mr. DAVIS:: May I make reference to one part of the section that has not yet been referred to? This discussion, so far, has been based upon the question of leasing, but if I apprehend the rest of this section, it goes to this extent that the commissioner may speculate with the funds of the band to the extent of making improvements. If there are proceeds from such improvements, the hand is ahead of the game, but if he has had the success that I have had as a lawyer in speculating in farming, makes a botch of it and loses money, the band would be out that much. I think this part of the section might more seriously concern the House than what we have been discussing as to leases. I am not much concerned about leases because they will bring in something, but when it comes to making improvements at the expense of the band it is something that must be considered be-

cause the band deserves the protection of this House.


Richard Coe Henders: 
Arthur Meighen: I think the hon. member for Neepawa (Mr. Davis) is rather apprehensive. There is no idea of speculating with the Indian fund. Subsection 2 provides that the capital fund of the band may be used for the improvement of the Indians' property. There is no intention of going further than that. Already we can do that for purposes of drainage, surveys, etc. The Indian is the ward of the Government still. The presumption of the law is that he has not the capacity to decide as to what is for his ultimate benefit in the same degree as has his guardian, the Government of Canada. Consequently, it has been affirmed that the fund of the band should be, and can be, used, with or without his consent, for the purposes I have named. This only goes to the extent of extending the principle further and enabling us to use the funds of the band for the purpose
9 p.m. of making improvements to the Indians' property. That is all, and that clearly appears by subsection 2. In subsection 3, we have provided that we may lease and cultivate unused land. It may be that the hon. gentleman fears that, if we cultivate it, we may not cultivate it to advantage, that is. to say, that we may lose money. But the Indian gets the fair rental value of the land. We are not speculating with his property; we give him the fair rental value. Consequently, the Indian cannot complain; and the country cannot complain because this is an attempt on a sound basis to increase production; and I do not think, therefore, that the House should further hesitate.


Mr.   D@: I do hot think the people of the country would complain so

much if provision were made for tenders. As my hon. friend from Neepawa (Mr. Davis) pointed out .a minute ago, you could speculate with this land. Some friend of the Government may get some of this land. I think it is bad policy to depart from the tender system, and I do not think that the reason given by the minister a minute ago, that he had no time to do what wais suggested, is a good reason. If there is no time this year, this land should only be rented for one year. The rights of the Indians should not be interfered with unless there is grave reason for so doing. This is a drastic measure, and the reason for it given by the minister is not sufficient.


John Patrick Molloy: Mr. Chairman, I have not the fear that some of my hon. friends have that the Indian will be interfered with. I believe, as the minister states, that the Indian will be better taken care of under some such system as this than he will be ifvhe is left entirely to his own resources. I come now to the hon. member for Macdonald (Mr. Henders), who swung all around and about what I said and then had to come back and admit the truth of my statement, that if you rented this land to first-class; practical farmers, it would be very much better. I would say, take all the Indian lands, leave the Indians enough for purposes of habitation, and pay them a rent for what you take. If you are going to rent land, if you are going to do it in a hurry, and if you are going to do it without tender-and it was done without advertisement only two weeks ago-you are going to see Jim, Jack and the other fellow take it up wrhile the prices of wheat and all grains are high, and then desert it, with the. result that the country will be the loser. 'I do not quite agree with my hon.. friend (Mir. IDuTremblay) when he says that the minister should rent the land ~ for one year. I do not think that is fair. Take, for instance, the case of a stock man. He probably takes a section of land, he buys up 500 sheep, puts them on the land and if it were proposed to put him off the land at the end of the year it would not be fair. Neither would it be fair to a man who is entirely a grain grower and who. with the best of intentions, would start in and buy up horses, tractors, binders and other things, if he were only allowed to keep the land for one year. The minister and the. department should take every precaution, as I am sure they will, to protect the people as well as the Indian. He should protect the neighbours of the people who are farming these lands as well as the people who are on the lands and, of course, the people of the country generally. I am satisfied that as far as Mr. Graham is able to do it, the work will be well done, but Mr. Graham is not infallible by any means any more than the rest of us. I am not opposing this measure but I am trying to improve it. It is a good move. The Indian, on the whole, will be better off; but, at the same time, let us see that the Indian, the department, and the people, are given every protection. 'There is no need of rushing into a thing and making a botch of it. If we are going to take it up let us do it right.


Arthur Meighen: As to tendering, I am sure that Mr. Graham would call for tenders in every case where there is time and where the circumstances permit. There are large reserves where there are certain rights already, where it may be found well to lease a certain permit or privilege over a certain section of it, or perhaps found well to rent part of it for grazing, and so on. Under conditions of that sort, it does not appear to me that tendering is possible. It may be that some of the land will be leased to friends of the Government. . In that very prosperous and intelligent country from which we from the West come they are all friendly to the Government, so that it is a contingency we cannot avoid. But it will be leased honestly all the same. I know there is a great deal in what the hon. member says, that land temporarily leased for cultivation and thereafter abandoned" is very likely to deteriorate through weeds. That consideration has prevented us leasing school lands, and I have had to stand a good deal of abuse of the opposite kind to that to which I have been subjected to-night because we refused for that reason to lease school lands. But in this case the lands leased are those oveT which we have a system and machinery of direct supervision. We have an agent at every reserve, with sufficient power in his hands to supervise the leasehold, and if it should be that the land should be under cultivation for a time, and then no longer under cultivation, at least we will have the benefit of the fencing in the meantime, and then we can apply the method of farming which the hon. gentleman suggests; we can put the cattle on after that, because the fences are there, and they will take care of the weed situation in very little time.


Mr. J. F. REID:: I would like to ask in regard to - the leasing of Indian reserve land to farmers who will crop this land.

Will it be possible for the land so leased to come under the municipal law of the different provinces, so that the machinery of the municipal law will have effect?
Mr. MBIGtHEN:	That question is more
than ordinarily difficult. iMy impression is it would not come under the provincial law.


John Flaws Reid: Would it not toe better if it did?
Mr. MEI'GHEN: I could not answer very well, because I do not know what the provincial law is in the province referred to by the hon. gentleman.


John Flaws Reid: In all municipalities in Saskatchewan there is a weed inspector who looks after noxious weeds.


Arthur Meighen: Yes, I think these
leases will toe subject to that law.


Ernest Lapointe: Will it be the policy of the Government to have the land cultivated under the direction of the Superintendent General with the money of the Indian band when no lease is granted? The Government will have that authority under subsection 2 of section 4. The Superintendent General is authorized to expend the capital moneys of the band for the purpose of cultivating or improving the land, even wimout the consent of the band. I think there is danger of the condition arising referred to by the Ijon. member for Neepawa (Mr. Davis). If the operations ,are not successful financially, the Indians will be the losers as a result of that expenditure. The Superintendent General himself could have the land cultivated.


Arthur Meighen: Certainly. But the Act provides that if we do, we give the Indian the fair rental value of the land leased, less such of the moneys as have gone into permanent improvements, of which, of course, he gets the benefit.


Ernest Lapointe: Not under subsection 2.


Arthur Meighen: No, under subsection 3.


Ernest Lapointe: Yes, but under subsection 2 the expenditure ef the capital moneys of the band is authorized for the purpose of improving or cultivating the land. There is no provision that the Indian shall receive nothing. Of course, he will receive something if the operations are successful, but if they a.re not he will lose as . a result of the expenditure of that money.


Arthur Meighen: It is not the purpose to expend the capital moneys on anything except permanent imipTovements, and the Act provides that -these shall toe only for such purposes as may be considered reasonable and proper. Then subsection 3 clearly indicates that the purpose of the expenditure of the capital funds is for permanent improvements only. In case we use the land, we- pay a fair value.


Frank S. Cahill: If I may be permitted I would like to ask the hon. member for Calgary (Mr. Tweedie) what he thinks might become of the Indians on the Sarcee reserve when this Bill comes into force? About how much of the reserve, is under cultivation at the present time?


Thomas Mitchell March Tweedie: The effect of this Bill
will certainly be that the capital fund of the Sarcee Indians will be increased, because thousands of acres in that reservation which are not under cultivation, which are not being used for grazing purposes, and which are not producing one single cent to the Indians, will then be producing revenue. Under this system the Indians are bound to receive some money, and if the Government follows the policy of leasing the land to independent tenants, then the Indians receive that money without the expenditure of one single cent, and the general revenue of their capital fund will be increased to the extent of these rentals. On the other hand, if the Government spend money on the cultivation of the land, the Indians then will be in the same position, I take it, as an independent farmer, and if a profit is made out of the crop, as the Sarcee Indians made last year and the year before in raising grain, then their capital fund will be increased to that extent. It is a profit-making transaction from almost every angle from which you look at it. There is this possibility, that, if they invest their money in seed grain or build a fence, they get no revenue from the fence other than the protection of their crop. If there should be a frost, or hail, or a drought, there will be no crop, and they will lose the cost of their seed grain, and they will have put in their own services and their own energy, which will be lost to them, just as would be the case with any other farmers under similar conditions,


Frank S. Cahill: But will the Indian of
the Sarcee reserve be satisfied? There is only a small acreage on that reserve under cultivation. The greater part is partially fenced, very poorly fenced, part of it. But the whole of it is fenced now.


Thomas Mitchell March Tweedie: Yes.


Frank S. Cahill: The reserve contains something in the neighbourhood of 70,000 acres. Will the Indians be satisfied that they are being treated fairly? Will they accept the conditions we are laying down, or are they dissatisfied?
' Mr. TWEEDIE: Well, the Indian may be satisfied and he may not. My personal view with regard to the Indian is that he is the ward of the Government, and being a ward he is bound to accept the treatment given him. The treatment of the Indian should be the very best that can be offered him under the circumstances. But it seems to me that it is no part of the treatment of the Indian to allow thousands of acres of land to stay out of cultivation and not put to use for grazing purposes. It seems to me that the position of the Indian as a ward is almost the position of any other ward, and that the guardian of that ward is bound to exercise his judgment, as the Minister of the Interior points out, in the best interest #of the ward. When we produce revenue for the benefit of the Indians themselves out of land which is now lying idle, I think that is the treatment which should be accorded to the Indians; and I believe it to be the duty of this Government to make use of the Indian lands for the benefit of the Indians themselves.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: It seems to me that this enactment is designed for the purpose of benefiting farmers whose land adjoins Indian reserves. It is not reasonable that an inroad should be made on Indian reserve lands in the West until the other lands throughout that country have been 'taken up. There is something in connection with this enactment which does not seem square to the Indians. The Indians are the wards of Canada, and deserve every consideration at our hands. I think that we should not too hastily approve this legislation.


John Patrick Molloy: I have heard it stated outside the House that the department fences the land and then leases it to a rancher, who puts on the land so many head of cattle per acre. Does the department fence the land and then lease it, or does it not?


Arthur Meighen: It is usually provided in the lease that the lessee shall fence, but under section 90 of the Act, as amended by this amendment, the department has power to fence and to charge the cost to capital account as permanent improvement. The cultivation could then be done and rental
paid to the band on a fair value basis. In order to make it clear that no capital fund shall be used except for permanent improvement, I move:
That dtfter the word "in" in the sixth line of section 4 there he inserted the words "subsection 1 of."
Subsection 1 clearly sets out that the improvements shall be permanent.


Joseph Read: The Government are doing the right thing in protecting not only the general public, but their wards as well. But the Government have other, landed wards who own, control, and hold out of use large tracts of land in'Western Canada -I mean the big interests. What is the Government going to do about them?


Arthur Meighen: We feel that they are quite capable of taking care of themselves.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to, and section as amended agreed to.
On section 5-taxation of dogs, protection of sheep:
Arthur Meighen: The object of this
clause is a very useful, though not a very lofty one. It is to provide for the curtailment of the privileges of Indian dogs. The Superintendent General is empowered to make by-laws for the taxation, control and destruction of dogs and for the protection of sheep; and such by-laws may be applied to such reserves or parts thereof as from time to time the Superintendent General may direct. For many years complaints have been made of the depredations of Indian dogs, particularly in the destruction of sheep. We have had no way of dealing with the matter. The Indians had power tb make by-laws which would be ratified, if necessary, by the Governor in Council; but the Indian is very sensitive on the subject, ,and does not move very rapidly along the path of civilization in this respect. We want to take care of this dog question.


Ernest Lapointe: No penalty has been provided?
M'r. MEIGHEN:	Yes, the penalty can
be fixed under the by-law.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 6-enfranchisement of Indians :
Mr. ARTHGRS:: Does this apply to all
Indians in Canada?


Arthur Meighen: Yes.


James Arthurs: Certain bands of
Indians in Ontario have large oapital funds under their control. In many cases the Indians are farming outside of the reserves, and have been, perhaps by common consent, allowed to vote. I understand that, according to legal terms, the 'word " may " means " shall," and I have no doubt that if this clause is passed and comes to their attention, many of these Indians will ask for and be entitled to receive their share of the capital funds. I do not think it is in the interests of the country that these shares should be paid to them, especially in cases where the amounts are large. The Superintendent General knowrs the cases which I have in mind.


Arthur Meighen: There is nothing obligatory on the Superintendent General. The Indian must not only be willing to surrender his interests and receive his share of the capital funds, ibut he must make application to be enfranchised; he must h.avie ceased to follow the Indian mode of life, and, most important of all, he must satisfy the Superintendent General that he is selfsupporting and fit to be enfranchised. Similar provision was made in the Act heretofore, but it was hedged around by this restraint: that before an Indian could have the privilege of establishing his right to enfranchisement he had to be a landed Indian. That is to 'say, he had to be in possession of a share of the landed estate of the band. There developed a great number of cases. I have in my hand a long list of Indians who are self-supporting, who follow various lines of life, being druggists, constables, professional singers, actors, missionaries, religious teachers, and so forth, but who, having no landed interest in the reserve, cannot come within the provisions of the Act, and therefore cannot be raised to the status of citizens. This provision is to remove that restraint.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 7-illegal celebrations:
Ernest Lapointe: Will the minister tell us what those illegal celebrations are which are prohibited by this section?


Arthur Meighen: Section 149 of the Indian Act says:	[DOT]
Every Indian or other person who engages in, or assists in celebrating or encourages either *directly or indirectly another to celebrate any Indian festival, dance or other ceremony ot which the giving away or paying or giving back of money, goods or articles of any sort forms a part, or is a feature, whether suoh gift of money, goods or articles takes place, before, at or after the celebration of the same,

or who engages or assists in any celebration or dance of which the wounding or mutilation of the dead or living body of any human being or animal forms a part or is a feature, is guilty of an indictable offence.
We simply make this an offence subject to proceeding by summary conviction, in order to avoid the* expense of proceeding by indictment.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, amendments read the second time and concurred in.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. T. A. -Crerar (Minister of Agriculture), Bill No. 55, to amend the Meats and Canned Foods.Act, was read the second time, and the House went into Committee thereon, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
On section 1-establishment:
Joseph Archambault: What is the difference between this and the old Act?


Mr. CRERAR:: This clause, -as it stands in the present Act, reads as follows :
"Establishment" means any abattoir, packing house, or other premises in which such animals are slaughtered, or in which any parts thereof or products thereof, or fish, or fruit, or vegetables, are prepared for food- for export or are stored for export.
The amendment to this section is the addition of the following words after the word " vegetables ":
Or any food or food product which may be named by the Governor in Council.
making the clause read as follows:
"Establishment" means any abattoir, packing house, or other premises in which such animals are slaughtered, or in which any parts thereof or products thereof, or fish, or fruit, or vegetables, or any food or food product which may be named by the Governor in Council, are prepared for food for export or are stored for export.


Joseph Archambault: What is the idea *of the amendment?


Mr. NESBITT:: Why does the minister confine the provisions to export? '


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The amendment is simply an enlargement of the scope of the clause. It provides that any food or food product which may be named by the Governor in .Council may be added to those foods enumerated in the clause as it originally stood.


Joseph Read: I presume this refers to " boiled dinners " and that sort of thing. Canned mixed-food is exported by several factories, and I presume this refers particularly to them. Mixed food put up

in cans is what is called " boiled dinners." (Does not the minister know about that?
Mr. iGRHRiAlR: I believe the clause could bt used to cover that.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: The minister, I understand, says that this is an amendment to the Act, and the Act already provides for places for the preparation of food for home consumption. This amendment applies, only to places in which food is prepared for export.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The Meat and. Canned Foods Act was intended to apply only to the foods enumerated that were intended ,for export or for interprovincial trade. I think the point to which the hon. gentleman refers is covered by municipal and provincial inspection, that is, in relation *to foods that are manufactured, say, at the point in which they are consumed. This Act does not apply to such foods, but if such foods are shipped either for export pr for interprovincial trade, it does apply to them.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 2-Exports or imports of uninspected articles:
Thomas Alexander Crerar: I may explain that at present the regulations apply only to exported foods; they do not cover imported foods of a similar character. Their purpose, I am told, when originally passed, was to set a standard for Canadian articles exported to foreign markets, in order that we might establish a reputation abroad. But there is this curious anomaly, that there are no similar restrictions on foods imported into Canada, with the result that foods can be imported into this country without any (supervision as to their quality. We are now asking for power so that the department may require proper certification of the foods imported into Canada.


Mr. EDWARDS:: Who will carry out this inspection, and where will it be done?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is intended to have the customs officials do it. When the goods are entered for import into Canada these officials will see that the proper certificates are attached.
Mr. DuTREMBLAY:	Is the certificate
furnished by the American or by the Canadian inspector?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The certification will have to be satisfactory to the Veterinary Director General or to the Minister of Agriculture, who may accept certification of United States Government officials as to the wholesomeness of the foods manufactured in that country.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: There has been a good deal of talk, and I have no doubt the minister has heard something of it, about the quality of the canned fruit and vegetables put up by our canners for the army. Is there any inspection of these factories at the present time by the Dominion Government? If there is no inspection, there certainly should be.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is an inspection by the officials of the Department of Agriculture. The inspector is not located permanently at the point of manufacture, but he can drop in at any hour of any day and examine the goods in the process of manufacture. The British authorities have instituted a very rigid system of inspection of all canned goods for shipment abroad for army purposes. The other day, when we were discussing the resolution on which this Bill is founded, reference was made by an hon. member to a case at Belleville. Curiously enough, I have received a letter from this manufacturer, who had seen the reference to his factory in the newspapers. I have confirmed by inquiry the following, taken from this letter:
The facts are that all the vegetables manufactured in Canada for the British, French and United States Governments are rigidly inspected first by the IMilton Hersey Company, whose headquarters are in Montreal, and who have a very highly trained staff of officials. They place in every factory where these goods are manufactured one or more inspectors sufficient to examine every pound of vegetables before they are manufactured, also during the processing, and after they are manufactured and packed. They stamp every package and every case and every sack in which these goods are shipped or transferred from the manufacturing sub-station to the central packing depot, and nothing can be delivered! without the above regulation. The hills of lading and invoices have also to toe all stamped toy these officials. Then 20 per cent, of the invoice is withheld toy the British War Office until the goods reach destination and, have passed through a rigid1 examination and chemical analysis in France, which usually takes about four months after the goods are shipped from Canada, before we receive our pay.
That is>
the inspection that is carried on by the British Government officials of articles for army purposes. In addition to that, the officials of the Department of Agriculture carry on an inspection which is intended to cover all goods for export.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: The reason I asked was that there was a gentleman here the other day who had a very interesting story to tell about some of these packing houses, and I think he is going to make it public some



of these days; it will certainly be interesting to the members and to the minister, and I have no donbt his story is correct. He was accusing the factories of putting up ' stuff that was not fit to pack.
Mr .CRERAR:	I have not, as full an
acquaintance with, this inspection as I intend (to have when I am a little longer in the department. While the inspection is not as perfect as it would be if an inspector were located permanently in each factory to *inspect every ounce of vegetable entering into the manufacture of these foods, nevertheless I think it is sufficient to afford a pretty fair check on their quality.


Joseph Read: Is the department taking any measures for inspecting small factories? There are quite a number of these small factories all over the Dominion, particularly in my province, putting up such foods as I mentioned a few minutes ago-" boiled dinners," which is a mixture of vegetables and meat, a well-balanced ration. These factories are up against very grave difficulties be1 cause they are not large enough to be entitled to an inspector. The Government provides that there must be an output of $50,000 or $60,000 worth of goods before an inspector will be appointed for the district. The result is that the small factories are put out of business by not being able to secure inspection. Has the Government received correspondence on that subject, and are they going to take measures to overcome that difficulty, and enable the small factories to compete with the big industry?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I will look into the point. I aim not aware that we have had any correspondence on the subject; I shall make inquiry concerning it. I want to point out, however, that this inspection does not govern in regard to goods consumed in the province where they are manufactured. It concerns only factories which are manufacturing goods for export, or interprovin-ciu.1 trade, and such factories, iif they are down in the province the hon. gentleman comes from, have the same facilities for inspection as other factories in other parts of the country.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On Section 17-False marking as to name.
Mr. McMASTER:: Is there provision in the law for marking the true weight and contents of packages? Subsection 2 provides that no false information concerning the contents of a package should be given.

I notice on many packages coming from the United States, the words: "This package contains so many ounces," or so many pounds, " exclusive of the package." It seems to me perhaps a rather wise provision to insert, in order that the public may be protected and know that they get what they are paying for.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Before replying directly to the question, I may say that the only change in this section is the provision that it shall apply to imports as well as exports. There is no provision, as far as I know, for marking on the label the exact weight of the contents of the can. The section merely provides that no package shall be marked with any label, brand or mark which will falsely represent the contents.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Is it not the intention to apply the inspection to food for local consumption under the Act? I think it would be a wise provision.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No. This Act is intended to apply to goods manufactured for export or interprovincial trade. The regulation as to the purity of the goods manufactured for local consumption is left to the municipal or provincial authorities', and they have charge of the enforcement of the Adulteration Act, which provides the necessary machinery for protection in the case the hon. gentleman refers to.


Joseph Read: I think the hon. minister is perhaps not quite correct about The Meat Act applying to goods for provincial use. I think the three Maritime Provinces are included in one section. You cari export a carcass of pork which has not been inspected from one part of the Maritime Provinces to another, but you cannot export it to Quebec or Ontario.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The hon. gentleman may be right, but I cannot say definitely.


John Flaws Reid: I wish to draw the hon. minister's attention to subsection 2, which reads:
(2) No package containing any article subject to inspection 'under tihis Act shall be marked with any label, brand or mark which falsely represents the quantity or weight or contents of such package.
In the West we get a very large quantity of canned tomatoes, and, as far as I know, they come very largely if not altogether from somewhere in Ontario. I do not believe we get any from Prince Edward Island. I have not noticed the stamp on the brand, but we certainly get a large quantity of water and a very small quan-

tity of tomatoes in these cans. I hope this measure will apply to canned tomatoes.


Mr. SPINNEY:: Is this Bill intended to cover all the fish products, as well as other food?
* Mr. CRERAR: I understand, under legislation passed last year or the year previous, that the same provision applies to fish products, but the administration of that part of the Act is under the Department of Marine and Fisheries.


Joseph Read: Section 17 applies to all fish.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It applies to fish but that is under the Department of Marine and Fisheries.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, and read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
Customs-Salaries and contingent expenses of the several ports in the Dominion, including ipay for overtime of officers, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, and' temporary Customs buildings and rentals, $3,890,000.
Hon. A. L. SIFTON (Minister of Customs) :: The amount of these estimates is exactly the same as last year. There has been a transfer of $25,000 from one column ,to another but the total is the same.
Mr. MicMASTER: The cost of collecting ,the customs revenue has been raised very considerably during the last six years, not merely taken as a whole, but pro rata. I would be glad to know if the minister has any hope to hold out to us that it will not require so much to raise the revenue as has hitherto been found necessary.
IMr. SIFTON: I have shown evidence of pot intending to raise the amount by only asking for the same amount as was voted last year. 1 have hopes that by a rearrangement of some of the work I may be able to make the relative amount, comparing it with the work that is done, less than it has been at some times in the past.
Mr. MoMASTER,: In the county that I know most about, it cost about twice as much the year before last to raise the customs revenue as it did during the year 1911-12. I never heard that the officers were over-worked. I remember having the figures for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1916, before me and they showed that there
67}
were about twice as many officers, and that about twice as laTge an amount in salaries was paid during that year as in 1911-12. I draw the attention of the minister to this fact because we are in hopes that in this era of economy we may see a very substantial improvement. I think there is room for it in certain parts of the country.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: I will take great pleasure in looking into the conditions existing in my hon. friend's county to ascertain if there is the extravagance of which he complains. It does not go through the whole service, because in looking over the lists of salaries I do not think they are at all commensurate with the amount of work dene. But if anything of that kind is found to exist in my hon. friend's county, I will try and see that the customs officers in tliat county shall be kept down to a reasonable rate if he insists upon it.
Mr. MoMASTER: I do not want the minister to labour under any misunderstanding. I am not complaining so much abopt the rate; of salary that is paid as the fact that it takes now about nine men to do the work that five did before, and although the nine men belong to the party that used to be called the Conservative party and the five who formerly occupied these positions belonged to the Liberal party, I do not think that the difference in intelligence would account foT the fact that it takes nine men now to do the work that five did before.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: Are the five still there?
Mr. MoMASTER: No, the five disappeared, of course.


Mr. DUFF:: In the minister's Teply to my hon. friend from Brome (Mr. McMaster) he left the impression that this extravagance in the customs service was confined to one county in the Dominion.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: All I said wasdliat that was the first case that I had heard of.


William Duff: I think that perhaps' eveTy other member representing a constituency in this Dominion would say the same thing as the hon. member for Brome does. I do not wish to criticize the minister, because he has only been in charge of the department for a few months, but if he will investigate the work of the department at the different customs ports in all parts of Canada he will find that the service is overmanned and that hundreds of thousands of dollars could be saved. I would ask the minister to make an investigation during the coming 'Summer, and I venture to say

he "will find a great many customs offices where there are twice as many men employed as are necessary to do the work.
'Mr. EDWARDS: I doubt very much the accuracy of the statements made toy the hon. gentleman (Mr. Duff), who has just taken his seat, and toy the hon. member for Brome. It may toe that there are certain localities where the salaries paid in proportion to the revenue collected are greater than they were a year or two ago, tout, without having the figures before me at the present moment, I venture the assertion that during the last fiscal year, taking the Dominion over, it costs less per dollar, or per hundred dollars of revenue for collecting than it did in previous years. I doubt if the hon. member for Brome can substantiate the statement that the cost pro rata is greater than it was a year or two ago. My information is that, taking the country generally, it cost less in the last fiscal year to collect the customs revenue than, it has cost in any year for a number of years back.
Mr. MteMIASTER: I do not want to leave the hon, member for Frontenac (Mr. Edwards) under any wrong impression as to what I did say. I was not comparing the cost of collecting the revenue in the fiscal year before last with what it cost two or three years ago. I was comparing it with the fiscal year 1911-12. I have not the figures under my hand as to what it cost to maintain the customs .house in the county which I have the honour to represent, but lI know that I am close to the exact, literal truth when I say that the number of, customs house officers in that county was doubled and that the salaries were about one hundred per cent more than they were during the fiscal year 191112. I remember looking into the matter during the last campaign. That is the matter that I was bringing to the attention of the minister. I do not believe that there is greater human depravity ,in
10 p.m. Brome than elsewhere, I am sure that the condition is widespread and that the customs has grown to be an overmanned service. I do not believe that under the former Administration, which was in power in 1911-12, the custom houses were in any degree undermanned, hut I believe that there have been increases which have not been necessary, and I think this is a matter for the Minister of Customs to look into.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: I certainly will do so.


Thomas Mitchell March Tweedie: If the hon. member for Brome has any complaint to make in re-

gard to the number of customs houses in his constituency, I would ask the minister to close some of them, and open some additional offices out in Alberta, We have a great shortage of them throughout that province, and I have not noticed any great extravagance on the part of the minister as [DOT] evidenced by any desire to open up even the necessary customs houses in that province. There is one point there, one of the busiest industrial centres we have, Drum-heller, a large coal mining centre, and to clear their goods the people have to go to Saskatoon or to' Calgary. The minister might close up some of the Brome customs houses and apply the money so saved to the opening of ,a custom house at that point in Alberta. Another matter in which I do not think the Minister of Customs in this Government, or the late Government, could be charged with extravagance is the manner in which they have paid the employees of that department, and this remark applies equally to employees in all branches of the public stervice. There are many clerks working in the custom house in Calgary for a salary which is not commensurate with the services they render, or in keeping -with conditions under which they have to live at the present time. We find some working for $50, $60, or $75 per month, and a married man cannot possibly maintain himself and bis family comfortably on the wages which, in some instances, they receive. I think it is the duty of* the Government in that department, and all other branches of the service, to increase the wages of the civil servants to a point where they can live decently and comfortably. I realize as much as does any member in this House that we must administer the affairs of the country economically, but I do not believe it is fair to the civil servants in the Dominion that we should practise economy at their expense in an endeavour in some degree to finance the heavy burden which is placed upon the country. Many men leave the Civil Service to receive wages twenty-five, thirty and even fifty per cent higher than they got from the Government. My view has always been that the Government should pay wages equivalent to those paid for similar service elsewhere, and by that means they would get as good a class of men as private individuals or corporations obtain for service in their various lines of business. I know of no reason why the civil servant is not entitled to the remuneration which his service commands, and he should not be discriminated against simply because he is working for the Government, I trust that the Minister of Cus-

toms will take this matter up, and give an increase of wages to all the employees of his department throughout the Dominion of Canada.
x Then there is another condition to which I wish to call the attention of the minister and the Government; that is, the question of the permanent service. At the outbreak of the war we had a great many men leaving the service to go to the front, their places being filled by substitutes. The Government has undertaken to hold their positions for these men when they return from the front. But the point is this: that a substitute who is not on the permanent list is doing the work. Some have been working for three or four years, and not being on the permanent list they are consequently not entitled to an annual increase in wages or salary. While I would not want to see any man put on the permanent list to displace a man who has gone to the front, I think that, while a man is rendering service to his country in the Civil Service he should be entitled, meanwhile, to the benefit of all the conditions enjoyed by the man he is replacing. In other words, if there is an annual increase of $100 a year coming to the permanent man, the substitute should get an annual increase, and if there are other conditions to which the permanent man is entitled, the benefit should likewise go to the substitute. If the Government will take up this question and give these substitutes the annual increase which would normally go to the permanent civil servant, and give civil servants a general increase of salary all over this country, they will do something to which the civil servants are entitled.


Mr. JACOBS:: I notice in Volume IV of the Auditor General's Report, ZZ p. 142, there is the following item:
Collectors of Customs, Quebec:	customs
duties $166,957.82.
This evidently represents sums paid by the Department of Militia to the Customs Department on goods brought into the country. Immediately following that item I see another, as follows:
Collley & Scott, Quebec: customs charges, '$18,108.82.
This firm, I understand, are customs brokers who have charged the Government the sum I have just mentioned for passing these entries for the Militia Department. I understand that in the year previous the amount they received -was something over $12,000. I would like to know why it is
that the Government is paying out these very large sums of money to brokers for passing the entries from one department to the other. This work, I think, might reasonably have been done by young men in the employ either of the Customs Department or of the Militia Department. But that outsiders should receive the large sum of $18,108.82 for what is practically a mere matter of bookkeeping, from one department to another, taking the money from one pocket and putting it into another, on the face seems to be wasteful extravagance.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: The payment was made by the Militia Department, not by the Customs Department. I have no knowledge in regard to it.


Samuel William Jacobs: As I understand it, the sum of $166,957.82 is supposed to be received by the Customs Department from the Militia Department.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: Certainly.


Samuel William Jacobs: That is a most extraordinary thing. The Government is doing business with itself. Why the Department of Militia should pay to the Department of Customs this sum, I fail to understand. It may be argued that it is a matter of bookkeeping. But why a firm of customs brokers should come in at this psychological juncture and take out of the coffers of this country over $18,000 surpasses my understanding. It may be that, for the purpose of reference, it is necessary that the Militia Department should pay to the Customs Department certain sums of -money. We are not "in" anything, and we are not "out" anything. But why customs brokers should receive $18,000 for this, certainly seems to me a matter which requires an explanation.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: That is quite possible, Mr. Chairman, but not from the Customs Department. We did not pay it. I have not [DOT] any idea why the Militia Department paid it. The Minister of Militia would possibly know.


Samuel William Jacobs: That is not the point I am making, Mr. Chairman. The point is: why should one department pay any money to the other department at all? The entries could be made in the books. That does not concern me.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: I think probably the hon. member is right, thfct *he actual money did not pass into the customs at Quebec. Duties that are chargeable to departments of Government are charged in that way. It is

quite likely that the Militia Department gave the Customs Department a cheque on the Receiver General, but no money was actually paid.


Samuel William Jacobs: That being the case, why do we pay over $18,000 to customs brokers for passing the entry?


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: That is a point that I do not know anything about.


Samuel William Jacobs: We are here for information.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: The hon. gentleman cannot expect me to give information about everything that is done by the Departments of Militia and Public Works. If they paid out $18,000 that they should not have paid out, I have no doubt that they will explain it. I do not know anything about it.


William Stevens Fielding: Some years ago all departments were supposed to receive free of duty any goods which they required. It was thought that some abuses had arisen under that system. I do not say that they had arisen; at any rate, it was thought that the system was capable of abuse, and in a revision of .the tariff for which I was in some measure responsible, provision was made that all departments should account to the Customs Department for duty on goods imported. As to the brokerage, I have no knowledge of that.


Joseph Read: Attention has been drawn to the fact that $18,000'was paid to customs brokers-


Georges Henri Boivin: Order. The minister has already stated that this payment was made by the Militia Department. It is entered in the report of the Auditor General in connection with militia expenditures, and I do not think that hon. gentlemen are in order in bringing the matter before the committee at this stage.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: I am willing to give all the information I can, and anything that I do not know I am willing to make a guess at for the purpose of giving information. I do not know anything about this, however, and it would not be worth the while even trying to guess.


Joseph Read: I wish to draw attention to a fallacy in the argument of the member for Frontenac (Mr. Edwards) in connection with the cost of collecting customs duties. The cost of collecting customs duties should not now be as large in proportion to the amount collected as it was when

goods were very much cheaper. The fact that customs receipts are large is due in part to the increase in the price of goods, not entirely to the proportion of a larger quantity of goods. Most of the duties are ad valorem-few of them are specific duties -consequently, the higher value of the goods the greater the amount of the revenue. But it takes the same amount of clerical work to collect that revenue, whether it is less or more; consequently my hon. friend's argument is not absolutely sound.


William Cameron Edwards: I admit the soundness of my hon. friend's argument, but I suppose he will admit, on the other hand, that we should take into consideration also, in arriving at the proportion of cost, the higher salaries paid.


Samuel William Jacobs: In view of the fact that it cost $18,000 to put through customs entries the duty on which amounted to $166,000, would it not be well to consider the advisability of reverting to the old system referred to by the member for Shelburne and Queen's (Mr. Fielding)? The various departments of the Government would not then be compelled to pay these large sums by way of brokerage charges.


William Stevens Fielding: The change in the system simply required that the Customs Department should receive, say, from the Railway Department, ordinary payments for duty. As to what the Railway Department does regarding brokerage charges, that is quite another matter.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: I shall make inquiry, and if, as the hon. gentleman suggests, there are a large number of similar items, I will recommend very strongly to the Government that a change be made in one respect or in the other.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: What is the revenue at the port of Renfrew?


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: That will be found in the Auditor General's Report.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: The member for Brome (Mr. MdMaster) has said that customs officers in some parts of the country are overpaid.
Mr. McMAiS'TER: I did not say that customs officers were overpaid; I said that ir. some customs offices there were more officers than the work required.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I accept my hon. friend's correction; he says that some of the customs offices are overmanned. But the customs office at Renfrew is not overmanned,

and, in my judgment, the collector of customs there is underpaid. His present salary is not in proportion to the revenue received at that port and to the salary which he received five or six years ago.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: I shall be glad at any time to give the hon. member all the information he requires with regard to that or any other port in which he is interested. He is right in regard to quite a number of ports. Business has increased much more largely in some places than in others, and in some places no advances have been made in payments to officers. A number of things of that kind come up in a department like this, having regard to the fact that our country is growing all the time, and it will be necessary to make a constant effort to keep them on a fair basis. So long as I remain in charge of this department I shall make that effort.
I do not expect to be entirely successful in all respects; that would be difficult in a country like Canada, which is spread over so large a territory. In a number of places [DOT] where the salaries paid appear to be high, the reason may be found in the fact that the officers there are engaged not only in the collection of revenue, but in the prevention of smuggling as well.
iMr. PEDLOW: I repeat that the salary of the customs collector at Renfrew is not at all in proportion to the revenue received at that port, the business of which has increased four or five times over during the last five or six years. A case of this kind deserves the consideration of the minister.


Mr. CHISHOLM:: In my county there are two vacancies, and I wish to know the policy of the Government in respect to filling those vacancies.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: It is very easy to answer that question. At the present time the policy of the Customs Department, in the case of a vacancy, is to send a memorandum in regard to it to the Civil Service Commission and to ask them to fill it. That is all the connection we have with the filling of vacancies anywhere in the Customs Department in the Dominion of Canada.


Samuel William Jacobs: Was that policy followed in connection with the collectorship of customs in the port of Montreal?


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: No; that appointment was made the week before the present system was introduced.
f'Mr. Pedlow.]


Alexander William Chisholm: I wish to call the attention of the minister to a certain condition in my county. At Port Hastings the collector of customs died some months ago. He was a respectable old gentleman who had given satisfaction for the past twenty years. For the last two years he had been an invalid, and his son did the work of the office. One would suppose that the son would have been allowed to remain in the office until a permanent successor was appointed, because he had been in the office for nearly two years, and was managing it very well. It is surprising, however, that inside of a.irionth after the old gentleman's death this young man was dismissed and another man was appointed. The only qualification that this other man had was that he was a very active politician. He is a man of seventy years of age, a very fine gentleman, but he certainly does not possess any qualification for the office to the degree that the young man has grown from experience. If it is the policy of the department to exercise patronage as in the past, I have, of course, no fault to find with the appointment.


Mr. PARENT:: What year did that
happen?


Alexander William Chisholm: About a month ago. If it is the policy of the department to do away with patronage, they are, so far as the port of Hastings is concerned, going the wrong way about the matter. I cannot see why this man was appointed, not permanently, I presume, and why this young man, who had the experience and who was the only support of a widowed mother, was dismissed.


William Cameron Edwards: How old is the young man?


Alexander William Chisholm: Twenty-four or twenty-five.


William Cameron Edwards: Is he healthy?


Alexander William Chisholm: Yes.


William Cameron Edwards: Why is he not overseas?


Alexander William Chisholm: He is probably medically unfit foT service or exempted for some reason.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: This particular appointment was made by the Civil Service Commission. I have no reason in the world for thinking they made this appointment because the man was a partisan, I do not know what motive actuated the Civil Service Commission, but they are entirely out-

side o-f political partisanship, and away above any such motives as that.


Alexander William Chisholm: I really can scarcely
accept that explanation. I have been too long in this House not to know a little about these things, and I would respectfully ask the minister to be good enough to look into this particular case. If it is the policy of this department to. exercise patronage, to follow the course that has been pursued in the past, I am not finding fault; but if they pretend to get rid of patronage, and if at the same time they stand behind the Civil Service Commission and charge that commission with doing these acts, and still expect the people to look upon their policy as that of attempting to get rid of patronage, they are making a mistake, they are simply fooling with the matter. In this particular case, it is clear that this man was appointed for no other reason than that he was an active politician; I care not who appointed him, that is immaterial to me. ,1 know the facts. II know he was appointed simply because he was an opponent of mine. I find no fault with him for that. So far as his qualifications are concerned, it would not reasonably be expected that a man of seventy years of age would, in an office of that kind, give as much satisfaction as a bright young man who had at least two years' experience in the office. For that reason I would respectfully ask the minister to be a little serious about this case, because I want to he able to tell my people why this appointment was made. I am telling the people of my constituency that the new Government that is now in power is supposed to have destroyed patronage for all time.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: Hear, hear.
'Mr. OHIiSHOLM:	I am endeavouring
to get them to believe that, although it is very hard for me to do so; I have a serious task upon my hands. If I am going to be met by such conduct as this, I think possibly I had better give up the endeavour. In the meantime, I shall await the minister's investigation of this ease, and possibly I shall he able to go hack to my constituency and continue the work I have been doing during the past month-viz., writing my people that this Government is doing away with patronage.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: So far as that is concerned I was perfectly serious, and I would not for a moment make a remark, either humorously or otherwise that would prevent the

horn, gentleman from carrying on the good work he has started in the education of the people who have sent him here. I do not think he could devote his time between sessions to anything better than to educating his people along the line he has mentioned.


Alexander William Chisholm: Help me along.
Mr. SIFTON. So far as this particular appointment is concerned, I gave the hon. member all the information I had. I have not the slightest idea as to the name of the man who has been given the position. I do know the appointment was not recommended by me; it was not recommended by anybody connected with the Customs Department, and it was made on the sole responsibility of the Civil Service Commission. Since the passage of the Order in Council which was laid upon the table of the House a few weeks ago, I have made to the Civil Service Commission of this, country no recommendations in respect to a single appointment in the Customs Department, and I do not intend to do so. I have not seen one gentleman connected with the Civil Service 'Commission, and, except socially, I do not expect to do so.


William Duff: The Minister of Customs
wants good men appointed to the Customs Department in this country; hut when he washes' his hands of the appointments by throwing the whole burden upon the Civil Service Commission sitting at Ottawa, that is not quite fair to the country. I do not know whether the minister is in a position to give us the information, but I should like to know how the Civil Service Commission, sitting in the city of Ottawa, can secure sufficient information to appoint a competent collector of customs for the port of Port Hastings, Nova Scotia.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: That would really be a
matter for them to decide themselves. If under the old system I were going to ap- , point a collector of customs for Port Hastings, Nova Scotia, I would make inquiry from the men whom I happened to know who live in that neighbourhood and who 'were most competent to express a proper opinion.
I would endeavour to get for the position of collector of customs the very best man of the available material in that neighbourhood and I would appoint him. I have no doubt in the world that the Civil Service Commission will go the same way about the matter, except that I presume they are going, as soon as they get the matter in proper working order, to hold examinations, which I probably would not have done.
/


Alexander William Chisholm: I should like to know something about the examination. When is this examination, going to he held, and how are the men who are anxious to secure this position or similar positions to know aJbout this examination?


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: I did accidentally hear
something in regard to that matter, and I am willing to give all the information. I have. The Civil Service Commission are going to hold, at least twice a year, examinations in every reasonably large town in the Dominion of Canada. They win advertise those examinations considerably in advance so as to give everybody an opportunity of trying them. The Civil Service Commission have already started advertising for applicants for certain positions. I noticed the other day an advertisement for an Indian Agent and for other officials who were required. So far as I know they are going to make every effort to put the Civil Service in the. beet possible shape. I have no doubt that temporarily there will be trouble owing to the bulk of the work thus thrown upon them so suddenly, but I have no doubt also that they intend to work with the honest idea of putting the Service within as short a time as possible upon a basis where merit will be tne sole requisite for office.


Ernest Lapointe: I notice that the building at the corner of Queen and Elgin streets, formerly the Grand Union Hotel, is now occupied by the Customs Department. Who is the owner of that building and what was the price paid for it?


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: I have not the remotest idea. These buildings are rented through the Public Works Department, not through the Customs. These are purely temporary premises. Any buildings in the nature of permanent premises are either built or rented by the Public Works Department.


John Patrick Molloy: I understand that the old collector of customs at Emerson, in the county of Provencher, was dismissed a short time ago.. Who took his place?


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: He was superannuated, I think. Nobody has been appointed in his place, but I have sent a man there temporarily from the Winnipeg office until the commission appoint a man; that is my recollection.
Salaries and travelling expenses of Inspectors of ports and of other officers on inspection and preventive service, including salaries and expenses in connection with the Board of Customs, S110,000.


Ernest Lapointe: What is the reason for the increase?


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: It is largely made up qf the statutory increases in connection with the inspectors. The travelling expenses 'have also increased considerably, one of the vessels mentioned in a subsequent item having been taken over compulsorily, and that has necessitated more expense in connection with other means of doing the same work.


Ernest Lapointe: Has the minister made any investigation as to whether it will be* possible to reduce the number of his officers? In my riding a man was appointed after the election of 1911, and he has been drawing a salary ever since and is drawing it to-day, though he has nothing at all to do. If the minister wants his name I shall be pleased to send it to him in writing tomorrow.	,	#


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: If my hon. friend will mail it to me to-morrow I will look into the case with the greatest of pleasure. I have heard of a few odd cases of that kind, and as soon as this session is over I am calculating to devote a considerable time to looking into the Customs and Inland Revenue Departments with a view to eliminating useless expenditure-not to get rid of men if they are necessary, but to put them where they will do the most good.


Joseph Read: There is no question that the Customs officers are underpaid, and I would suggest to the minister that he eliminate all the unnecessary men in his department and use the money thereby saved to increase the wages of the men left in the service.
[DOT]	i
'Miscellaneous-Printing and stationery, subscriptions to commercial papers, flags, dating stamps, locks, instruments, etc., for various ports of entry, express charges on samples, stationery and forms, legal expenses, premiums on guarantee bonds, and uniforms for Customs Officers, $18'0,0(K>.


Andrew Ross McMaster: I want to draw to the attention of the minister a matter which probably he has noticed himself, and that is the way in which the flag is abused. Instead of being hauled down at sundown, flags are left up in all sorts of weather and often present a very tattered appearance, which does not add to the dignity of the nation, and also means a certain amount of waste. This goes on continually on public buildings. I have seen flags run up on the flagpole and allowed to stay there until practically blown to pieces; that is not

the way the national emblem should be treated.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: It certainly should not. There is nothing, I think, better recognized than the fact that the flag should come down at sundown. That has 'been the custom for a great many years now, and I shall certainly take occasion to look into the matter.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Has the minister's attention been drawn to the very flimsy and in: ferior quality of the bunting in the flags? They frequently tear to pieces in one day in a big wind.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: No, it has not.
To provide for expenses of maintenance of revenue cruisers and for preventive service, $75,000.


Georges Parent: What is the reason for this increase?


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: It is a decrease.


Georges Parent: What is the reason for the decrease?


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: Where the hon. gentleman shows so conclusively that he is in earnest in regard to this, and that he wants whatever is wrong on either side to be corrected, I am delighted to give him information. The decrease is because we cannot get the toat.
Salaries of officers and1 inspectors of Excise, and to provide for increase depending1 on the result of Excise examinations, $550,768.25.


Andrew Ross McMaster: I do not know whether I am in order, but it has struck me that perhaps the Minister of Militia (Major-General Mewburn) has just come in in response to a telepathic call'from the Minister of Customs.


Mr SIFTON:: Oh, no, 1 w .uld not make such a blunder as that. There is a decrease in this and other Excise items partially owing to the possibility of joining [DOT]some of the offices in such a way as to decrease expense. I have not been able in connection with these estimates-I think it, is best to admit it frankly-to make the changes that I would have been able to make if I had had a little more time since taking over the Department of Inland Revenue, temporarily at least. But there will be very considerable changes in the way of uniting numerous small offices for reasons of economy.
For extra duty-pay at large distilleries and other factories, $16,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Are these distilleries in connection with the Imperial Munitions Board?


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: The distilleries are still in existence and doing work, and they have to be watched just the same.


Rodolphe Lemieux: More than ever.
Preventive Service Contingencies, $18,000.


Andrew Ross McMaster: What are these contingencies generally?


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: The expenses of all the preventive officers.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Travelling expenses?


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: Yes.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I suggest to the hon. gentleman that he should look over the last batch of appointments made by his immediate predecessor in office. Last year, before the elections, and before the Civil Service Act was amended', Mr. Sevigny made quite a number of appointments. I would like the hon. gentleman to comb the appointments as much as possible, because Mr. Sevigny gave very poor information to the House when he had to defend his estimates. I think my hon. friend, with his keen eye, will see to it that no officer who is not wanted for the public service will remain in it.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: I will go further. Any one who is not needed will go.
Preventive Service Salaries, $130,000.


Ernest Lapointe: I have two other names which I will send to my hon. friend of preventive officers in his department drawing salaries and doing nothing.


Mr. McCREA:: I am glad to hear the hon. minister say he is going to curtail expenses and that where men are not needed he will dispense with their services. In the customs at Sherbrooke there are three men, if not four, doing the work one man used to do prior to 1911, each of them getting more pay than the one who did the whole of the work in 1911. I do not think the service has increased in proportion to the increased assistance. I would be glad if the hon. minister would tell me how many men are connected with the customs service at Sherbrooke.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: I could not tell you. They are all in the Auditor General's Report.


Francis N. McCrea: I think there are four men now diing the fvork.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: It ought to be well done.


Francis N. McCrea: What is everybody's business is nobody's business, and, as a rule, in such eases the work is not well done.
To provide for stamps, stationery, salaries, etc., in connection with War Tax, $75,000.
- Mr. McMASTER: I do not know whether the stamping of cheques falls within the department of the Minister of Customs, but the matter is in the Estimates. In regard to the matter of stamps placed on cheques, would it not be well for the minister to suggest to the banking world of Canada that, instead of having stamps that have to be affixed to cheques by the customers, they should issue, as they do in the Old Country, books of cheques already stamped for the use of private persons? That would be a convenience to the public and I think the suggestion from the Minister of Customs might have some effect on the banking world.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: A great deal of it is being *done now by arrangement between the customers and the banks.
Mr. MoMASTER: I have seen dividend cheques coming from large companies on * stamped paper, but I have not seen banks giving them to their private customers.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: I will be glad to draw the matter to the attention of the Minister of Finance, who does most of the business with the banking world. I have not much to do with the banks myself, and I do not know that they would take my advice.


Andrew Ross McMaster: The Finance Minister, being under obligations to the banks, is sometimes not in as good a position to deal with them as the Minister of Customs would be.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: I do not. owe them anything.


Mr. KENNEDY:: I was not in the House when the question of overtime for customs men was discussed. Is there any increase for the men doing overtime?


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: No increase in this item. The item is in bulk. There has been some complaint in regard to the rate paid for overtime, but in most cases it appears to work out fairly evenly. There are some cases in which the work has been much more than it should have been, with the growth of business, and probably it is a little unfair to some, but the bulk of them are receiving fairly good treatment, as far as overtime is concerned.


William Costello Kennedy: The only point I had in mind was in regard to the rate for overtime
in the customs at our port, which is 30 cents an hour. The average man on the railroad as a labourer gets 40 to 45 cents an hour for overtime. When you consider the high cost of living, it is unfair that the man in the customs should be asked to work for 30 cents an hour when the railway labouring men get 40 to 45 cents.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: On its face, it does not look right, but that statement does not cover all the circumstances of the case. The man may be working a couple of hours over-t'.me, but he is drawing a salary of $1,000 a year for his work during the other hour3 of the day, during which time, perhaps, he is doing very little work. I do not say he is idle all the time, but there is part of the time he does not do very much. So that really, considering the work he does, he is not treated badly.


William Costello Kennedy: The men at my port are busy most of the time.


William Costello Kennedy: The men at my port
are busy most of the time.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Regarding inland revenue stamps, I would suggest that those stamps be used for that purpose and nothing else. I cannot understand how you can strike a balance as between the Post Office and Inland Revenue Departments, under the present system. I think it would he wise to keep these two departments entirely distinct and separate, and postage stamps should not be used for inland revenue purposes, nor on cheques. If you made a hard and fast rule of that kind you would be able to tell, at the end of the year, just what revenue you derive from the Post Office Department, and the revenue obtained from the Inland Revenue Department. Under the present system it is mere guess work.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: No doubt in regard to that. That provision was put in the statute a year or so ago, and, in order to make a change, an amendment to the Act would be required. I have already brought that matter to the attention of* the Minister of Justice, who is responsible for the Taxes Acts. The Department of Customs merely collects. The Finance Department arranges how much we are to collect, and all we have to do is to collect it. But the question raised has already been brought to attention, and I understand an Act may be introduced dealing with the matter.
Mr. E]JLER: In connection with the collection of customs, I should have asked a

question when the excise items were discussed. At what point does the collection of excise take place? Is it after the product has been completed and goes into storage in the distillery, or does the collection take place at the time that the product leaves the distillery and when it is sold?


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: Nearly all the large warehouses are bonded warehouses and when the product is manufactured it is placed in a bonded warehouse. The duty is only paid when it is taken out for sale. Of course, they can take it out for other purposes if they see fit and put it in another warehouse, but it is usually left until pretty nearly the time when it is required for sale or consumption.


William Daum Euler: Is the minister cognizant of the fact that in a certain diistil'ery in Waterloo some of the product went out, not by the usual channels, but that about $10,000 worth of whiskey was actually stolen from that distillery? In that particular case was the department able to collect excise on the amount that was abstracted?


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: I have no knowledge of the case but there is no doubt that the distillery would have to pay the same duty on that stuff as if they had sold it themselves.
To pay collectors of customs for duty collected by them, $5,000.


Andrew Ross McMaster: What is that for?


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: This is an item that we shall probably be able to get along without in the future, when we amalgamate the small offices. It is put in for the purpose of saving money. There were places where a small amount of inland revenue work was done, and instead of paying a man especially for that work we paid collectors of customs ten per cent on the amount col'ected I think it is limited to $200. We do the same thing in the Customs Department in connection with the post office. Occasionally we pay a postmaster instead of appointing a customs 'officer to collect the revenue.
Provisional allowance of not more than $150 each to officers) to Manitoba and) iwest, $12,000.


Mr. TOBIN:: Why this increase to officers in Manitoba and the West?


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: It is not an increase; it has been in for a number of years.


Edmund William Tobin: What is the reason for it?


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: Tne reason that it was put in was the very much larger cost of living in that neighbourhood at that time, and even yet, in connection with rent and various things of that kind. It is in all the departments practically. It only amounts to $12,000.


Edmund William Tobin: Generally speaking, the
cost of living in Ontario and Quebec and other provinces is about as high as it is in the West. The minister should make this increase general.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: Rents are not as high yet except in large cities.


Edmund William Tobin: Is it because of high living in the West?


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: In some oases.
Weights and measures, gas and electric light inspection,-rent, fuel, travelling expenses, postage, stationery, etc., for weights and measures, $90,1) 0 0.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Is the minister continuing the policy of the department with reference to the metric system?


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: I have not really adopted any policy in connection with that yet.
Salaries of inspectors and assistant inspectors of gas and electricity, $85,0'00.


William Costello Kennedy: I notice there is a decrease of $8,500 here. What is the explanation of that?


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: There are several decreases in connection with these Estimates. It was found that the officers were not absolutely essential. Oocasonally one will even die to help us out of a hole. [DOT]
Provisional allowance of not more than $150 each to officers in Manitoba and west, for gas and electric light, $4,000.


Edmund William Tobin: I cannot understand why
the minister allows this increase to men in the West and does not allow it to men in the East. You may have the high cost of living in the West, but the cost of living has increased in the East also.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: This is not a new item and it is put in on account of the high cost of living. It has been in for ten. or fifteen years.


Edmund William Tobin: I know, but we have a new Government and we expect it to improve upon the methods of the old Government.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: You do not expect me to cut down the salaries of these underpaid officials?


Edmund William Tobin: No, we expect you to treat people all the .same.


William Daum Euler: What is the object of making a special arrangement for inspectors in Manitoba-to provide for the higher cost of living in the West?


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: Yes.


William Daum Euler: I would respectfully submit that the cost of living in the East, certainly in Western Ontario is fully as high as it is in the West.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: I am very sorry to hear that.


William Daum Euler: If anything I believe it is in favour of Manitoba to-day.
Export of electric power, $1,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What is the policy of my hon. friend with regard to the export of power? II .see there is a great agitation around Toronto about the hydro-electric and other questions relating to electrical power. The last report of Mr. White, of the Conservation Commission, deals in a very interesting way with this subject. Mr. White says that one of the most effective weapons in Canada's hands, in case, for instance, the United States sought to put an embargo on coal, is our wealth of electrical powef. Mr. White suggests that we should restrict the exportation of power and that the Government should take means to secure for the [DOT] public benefit all the water powers on the river St. Lawrence. I said a word about that the other day to my hon. friend the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Carvell) but he seemed to think that the question was dead and that it had died long ago. Well, I think he is labouring under a misapprehension.


Mr. CARVELL:: I think my hon. friend must have misunderstood me if he thought I said it was dead. I said that he need not lie awake at nights if he thought we were going to give away Canadian rights.
Mr. LEMilEUX: I am glad my hon. friend has not misunderstood me. At all events, I think the Government should be wide awake on this question. There are interests presently at work at Washington and Ottawa to secure the Long Sault water power. Take the case of Montreal-I think I gave the figures the other day in the House. We have splendid water powers which can be developed and which would give the industries of that city all the power required, and much more. I find that some of the power developed around Montreal is being exported to the United States to the detriment of Montreal industries. Now, there may be some other occasion when we can
discuss this question further, but I wish simply to call the attention of the hon. gentleman and of his colleagues in the Government to the necessity of being very careful not to jeopardize the interests of Canada in those water powers, but to keep for ourselves this effective weapon dn case it may be needed against, say, an embargo on coal.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: From what point thi3 power is exported? The item is for the export of electric power, and represents only a very small sum, but the principle should be considered by the House.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: This is purely an item for the cost of operation of that particular branch. It has nothing to do with the power that is actually exported. All the power exported, so far as this department is concerned, is exported from the neighbourhood of Montreal. There is only the' one permit, so far as I know. Does the hon. member for Maisonneuve (Mr. Lemieux) know of any other?


Rodolphe Lemieux: There is a portion of the Niagara power which i3 exported to the United States.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: That is done by international agreement, and is a settled policy that this department could not interfere with.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I know that. But theTe was an agitation made-by Buffalo interests to secure more of that power.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: There is no doubt about
that.


Rodolphe Lemieux: And there have been
many interviews between the federal authorities, the iBuffalo interests and the Hydro Electric on that very question. The interests in the United States are looking for the opportunity to capture as much of our power as possible. That has some bearing on this item,' although it does not bear exactly on the question of conservation, but the minister is indirectly connected with this subject.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: As my hon. friend directed his remarks to myself, perhaps he will allow me one question, just to test him out. Suippose that some capitalist came along and1 said:	We are. willing to
furnish all the money necessary to dam the St. Lawrence river at the Long Sault, and the United States will take its half of the power developed, and Canada will take its half, would my hon. friend have any ob-

jeetions to the United States getting its half under such conditions, or would he rather see the power going to waste rather than have any of it exported?


Rodolphe Lemieux: I have not studied the plan which is proposed.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Neither have I. I am just asking the question.


Rodolphe Lemieux: If we could not develop that power without constructing a dam which would infringe on American territory, then I would say that such a plan as proposed by my hon. friend would be the best agreement possible.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I hope my hon. friend
will realize that you cannot construct a dam unless it extends across the river, and it must touch the American side and the Candian side. If you construct a dam, it is possible to have one half of the power developed on the American side, and one half on the Canadian side. Would my hon. friend look upon that as an international catastrophe, or as being of some benefit to both countries?


Samuel Hughes: There are some places in the St. Lawrence riveT where a dam could be constructed between the Canadian side and an island, without interfering with navigation.


Mr. ROBB:: When the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Carvell) asks that question, he should not address himself to this side of the House. The Minister of Public Works has been a long while in Parliament, and, no doubt, he remembers the time when we sat until the grey dawn discussing just such [DOT] a question


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: And the next day, and the next night as well.


James Alexander Robb: I think my hon. friend should have turned to his friend on the right (Sir Sam Hughes), who led the opposition to the very plan that has been mentioned.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I was only asking as a matter of information.


James Alexander Robb: I might remind the House and the Minister of Public Works that the very gentleman, who had opposed the development of power for exportation to the United States, had scarcely taken office until the government of which he was a member, immediately concluded a contract whereby permission was granted to the Cedar Rapids Power Company to export power to Massena, N. Y., and I am told that there is now 90,000 horsepower from the

Cedar Rapids power-house on the St. Lawrence river, between Coteau and the Cedars, being exported to the United States to drive machinery at Massena, and the permission to export that power was given by the previous government which had in the Cabinet a gentleman who had fought a similar proposition advanced by the Government in 1909 or 1910.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The hon. gentleman reminds me that I have been in the House a long time. I remember the occasion he le-fers to distinctly. There was a proposal -not a proposal, but a discussion-which arose out of some rather unimportaut rights on the Canadian side, but the discussion developed along the line of damming the St. Lawrence river where it is an international stream. That is not the case at- the Cedar Rapids. That is a purely Canadian water-power, and) as' a matter of policy the former Government decided to allow certain capitalists to develop that waterpower and export a certain amount of power to the United States. That is a matter which is under the control of the Canadian Government. I do not know what the conditions are exactly, but it is our property, and the export can be discontinued if necessary. But I am coming back to the question that my hon. friend put up to me about the Long Sauit.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Of course, if we have to dam partly on Canadian territory and partly on American territory, and if we can divide the resulting energy between Canada and the United States, certainly it is a good arrangement. But that is not the trouble. My hon. friend knows perfectly well what was the kernel of the whole question some years ago. I think that the men behind that scheme were mostly all Americans who wanted to get from the Government power to dam the St. Lawrence on both sides and to direct which way the power would go. That is where the objection was taken.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Perhaps my hon. friend will allow me one more question.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: That has nothing to do with my estimates. I assure the hon. gentleman that so far as the export, of power from this country to the United States is concerned, this Department will give special attention to the interests of Canadians first.


Samuel Hughes: May I ask the member for Huntingdon (Mr. Robb) whether he justifies the proposal he made some

years ago to dam the S't. Lawrence at the Sault rapids, under which five peT cent of the water would come to Canada and ninety-five per cent would go to the United States?


James Alexander Robb: I do not remember that I made any such proposal.
Progress reported.
On motion of Hon. Mr. Sifton, the House adjourned at 11.21 p.m.
Wednesday, April 24. 1918.