1918-04-25

A YOUNG PATRIOT.


[Stage Direction]
On Motions being-called:
Rt. Hon. Sir ROBERT BORDEN (Prirms Minister):: May I ask the indulgence of
the House for just a moment while I read a letter which reached me on Saturday last, and which I think expresses so admirably the spirit of the young men of Canada that it is desirable to give it publicity at this time. I shall not give the name or the address of the writer, a boy of sixteen years, because I know he did not write the letter in order that his name might come before the public. It is as follows:

Toronto, Onit., April 18, 1918. Sir Robert Borden,
Ottawa.
Dear Sir,

I am asking- yon a favour to help me get in the army. I am only a boy of 16 years and want to give my life for my country. I have tried' many times but failed1. Why I am asking you is because you are like a King to Canada and' if you said' a word It would help me more than anything else. My dad has been to the Front and now hie is back again, and you have taken my brother, and now I am the only one left to do something for .my country. And, Sir, if you only knew how I am going crazy to do something to gain honour. I am strong and healthy, I have never had any sicknes in my life. I was just reading the paper this morning and saw what you said "Canadians must hold the line." They oanniot do it without men. Please will you give me a position in that line I don't call myself a man but I might help to hold that line. So please give me a chance, the line is more valuable -than my life.
Tours very truly. -
The boy lived on Melinda street, in Toronto. Two sentences struck me as really remarkable-the one in which (he sayS, " now I am the only one left to do something for my country." He might naturally and most reasonably have said, " I am the only one left to do something for my family," but he did not say that; he said, " I am the only one left to do something for my country." And then observe the last words of the letter, " the line is more valuable than my life." .
I am s-ure that that letter does indeed express the spirit of the Canadian people, and as long as that spirit endures, and I am confident it will always endure, we need have no fear for the destiny of our country whether in this war or after the war.



REPORT.

[Stage Direction]
Report of Hydrometric Surveys (Stream measurements for the calendar year 1916).- Hon. Mr. Meighen.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by asterisks.)

Mr. CROWE:: 1.	What has been the cost, respectively, of
(a)	dredging, (b) construction of wharves, (c) breakwaters, and (d) repairs, in connection with the harbours of Halifax, N.S., St. John, N.B., Victoria, B.C., and Vancouver, B.C., since October, 1911, to the present dale?
2.	What has been the total expenditure in connection with the construction and repairs of dry docks in the harbours of Halifax, N.S., and St. John, N.B. ?


Hon. Mr. BURRELL:: 1.	Railways and Canals:
(a)	St. John Long Wharf.. ..$	10,642 68
Halifax-in connection with
foundations and berths-
Ocean Terminals	 2,149,829 57
(b) Construction of Wharves-	-
St. John	 Ni]
Halifax-Pier 2 and Shed .. 1,285,452 24
Halifax Ocean Terminal Wharves, not including Ailing from Ocean Terminals, Railways or expenditures on
railways	_.. 4,026,835 83
(c)	Breakwaters-St John..'.. Nil Breakwaters, Halifax	 401,656 57
(d) Repairs to wharves and Sheds-
St. John, not including elevator
and conveyors	
Halifax	
Public Works :
Halifax, N.S. .. Nil.
St. John, N.B. :
(a) . . ..	.... $5,352,277	12
(b).. ..		97
(c).. ..	. . . . 1,372,037	49(d).. ..	. . .. 4,857	04
39,606 93 68,408 67

ram.uuvci,	.
(a)	$1,496704	03(b)	
2,685,683	28(c)	
Nil.(d)	
Nil.
4,182,387 31
Victoria, B.C.:
(a)	$1,104,771	77(b)	
2,641,918	06(c)	
2,310,525	57(d)	
1,322'	46
6,058,537 86
Grand Total	$20,384,370 79
Marine and Fisheries:
(b) The Department of Marine :
Dartmouth, N.S.:
1915- 16	$ 16,019 79
1916- 17	 2,964 46

St. John, N.B.:
1911-12	$ 69,000 00
1913-	14	
118,033	881914-	15	
80,349	221915-	16. . . .-	
58,937	461916-	17	
11,392	22

Victoria, B.C., Depot :
1914- 15		25,415 65
1915- 16	 655 27
1916- 17		22,493 80-

2.	No expenditure in so far as the Department of Railways and Canals -is concerned.
The Department of Marine has no information.
Public Works:
Halifax old Graving Dock: This dock was *built in 1889 by the Halifax Graving Dock Co., Ltd., and has received from this department, under authority of Act 45 Viet.,

ch. 17, an annual subsidy' of $10,000 for the twenty years ended 30th September, 1909. Damages caused by the explosion of 6th December, 1917, are now being attended to and paid lby this department; expenditures tO' 31st March, 1918, $15,745.
Halifax new Graving Dock: Preliminaries, etc., $4,451.52.
This department has expended no money on any graving docks at St. John, N. B.
St. LAMBERT POSTMASTER.


Mr. BOURASSA:: 1.	Has the Government been made aware that in the federal election of 1917, liquor was stored in the home of the Postmast#! of St. Lambert, in the county of Lfrvis?
2,	Does the Government know that said liquor has been seized by Excise officers?


Hon. Mr. BURRELL:: 1.	No information.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
present date, and how many of such men were British born, and how many Canadian bom?
3.	How many men per province, were liable to Military service under the provisions of The Military Service Act?
4.	How many of these men, per province, reported for Military service up to the present
date?
5.	- How many, per province, claimed exemption before the Local Exemption Boards?
6.	How many claims, per province, were granted by the Local Exemption Boards?
7.	How many appeals were taken by the Military authorities against such exemption?
8.	How many men, per province, claimed their exemption and were subsequently ordered to report?


Hon. Mr. BURRELL:: 1.	Militia and Defence: Enlistments under the voluntary system from the beginning of the war until the proclamation putting into force the Military Service Act, i.e., 13th October, 1917, are not available, but the following are the figures to 31st October, 1917:-


JAS. STAJRRATT MARSHALL.
Mr. POWER:: 1.	Has there been since August, 1914, a person named Jais. Starratt Marshall, of Spa Springs, Annapolis County, in the Active Militia of Canada?
2.	If not, when did he leave the service?
3.	If so, when did he join the service, and what has been his occupation?
4.	What amount has he received during the period in which he was employed?
5.	Has the Government any information as to whether or not whilst in the service he carried on the work of laundryman either in his public or private oapacity?
6.	If in the former capacity, what extra pay did he receive?
Major-General MEWBURN:
1.	Yes.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	Appointed to the 69th Annapolis Regiment as 2nd lieutenant on the 8th September, 1896, and is now a captain in that regiment.
4.	No record of this officer having been given any special employment other than as an officer of the regiment when called out for annual training during peace times, when he would receive the pay of his rank.
5.	No.
6.	Answered by No. 5.


ENLISTMENTS UNDER THE VOLUNTARY SYSTEM.
Mr. VIEN:: 1. How many men, per province, enlisted under the voluntary system, from the beginning of the war until the proclamation putting into force The Military Service Act, and how many of such men were British born, and how many Canadian born?
2. How many men per province, enlisted voluntarily since the said proclamation to the
Ontario	
Quebec	
Nova Scotia and P.E.I	
New Brunswick	
Manitoba	
Saskatchewan	
Alberta	
British Columbia and Yukon..
191,632
48,934
23,4136
18,022
52,784
26,111
36,279
42,608
Nationalities-
Canadian born.... British born .... Other nationalities
439,806
197,473
215,769
26,564
439,806
2.	Militia and Defence: Voluntary enlistments since the said proclamation up to and including March 31st, 1918, are not available, but the following are the figures from 31st October, 1917, to 31st March, 1918:
Ontario"	
Quebec	
Nova Scotia and
P.E.I	
New Brunswick ..
Manitoba	
Saskatchewan. ..
Alberta	
British Columbia and Yukon 

8,081, inc. from U.S.A. 3,727,	"	"636,	"	"763,	"	"2,966,	"	"98,	"	"415,	"	"2,021,	"	"
5,618
1,611
212
1,208

Included in this number are 6,775 Class 1 men voluntarily reporting since the said proclamation.
At the present time information with regard to country of birth of these men is not available.
3.	Justice: The information asked for will be found in the Report of Military Service Council laid on the Table and distributed to members.

4.	Militia and Defence: Number of men who have reported for military service who were liable under the provisions of the Military Service Act up to and including March 31, 1918:
Ontario	 13,295
Quebec [DOT]	 3,284
Nova Scotia and	P.E.1	 1,70)9
New Brunswick	 1,502
Manitoba	 4,149
Saskatchewan	 2,609
Alberta	 1,632
British Columbia	and	Yukon.. 2,888
31,068
5,	6, 7 and 8. Justice: The information asked for will be found in the Report of Military Service Council laid on the Table and distributed to members.


SENATOR BRADBURY.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. D'ANJOU:
1.	Is Senator (Lt.-Col.) Geo. H. Bradbury receiving a pension from the Pensions Board In Canada ?
2- If so, what is the amount [per annum he is receiving?
3.	On what date was the pension granted? Was it before or after Union Government was formed?
4.	What is the reason given for granting the pension?
5.	Did Lt.-Cbl. Geo, H. Bradbury serve in France?
6.	If so, for what period?
Mr. MoCURDY:
1.	Yes.
2.	$780 per annum.
3.	February 27th, 1918. After.
4.	For disability incurred on service.
5.	Yes.
6.	About two weeks.

[Stage Direction]
'Mr. DESLAURIERS:
1.	What companies manufacturing explosives have loaded their products on board ships in the harbour of Montreal during the last season of navigation?
2* Is the Government aware that on account of a fire which started in one of! the ships in the harbour of (Montreal, a disaster somewhat similar to the Halifax disaster was barely averted?
3.	Is the Government aware that on another occasion, in the harbour of Montreal, when explosives were toeing put on board, a large quantity of said explosives fell to the bottom of a ship, through the breakage of a cable, thereby again exposing Montreal to a great peril?
4.	If so, will the Government bind' these companies bo effect their loadings outside the limits of Montreal for the present season of navigation?
5.	Is the Government taking necessary steps towards protecting war munition depots, as well as the people residing in their vicinity, by establishing lightning rods or adopting some other means of counteracting the effects of lightning?
iMr. Burrell. 1
Hon. Mir. BALLANTYNE:: 1.	The Government have no information.
2.	No.
3.	No.
4.	Under consideration.
5.	The Government will continue to protect munition depots.


CROW'S NEST PASS COAL OOMPA1NY.
Mr. DECHENE:: 1.	What amount, if any, was paid April, 1917, to the Crow's Nest Pasis Coal Company?
2.	Who recommended said amount to be paid to the company?
3.	Under what authority was said amount paid?
4.	For what purpose was it paid?
5.	Is said amount to toe refunded to the Government?


Hon. Mr. CROTHERS:: 1.	$18,559.88.	.
2.	The Minister of Labour.
3.	That of the Governor General in Council.
4.	To enable the prompt payment to the miners for the period November 16, 1916, to February 5, 1917, of the wage bonus recommended by a commission appointed to report on the cost of living. This action was taken with a view to lessening the danger of a cessation of work in the collieries concerned, such cessation involving a public calamity.
5.	The amounts were advanced to the different mining companies concerned on the understanding that the money would be so far as possible collected from the consumers, the mining companies not being themselves in a position to increase the prices for coal which had been delivered. A considerable amount has been collected from the consumers, hut it has not been possible in dealing with the sums received always to determine if the dealings of a particular consumer have related exclusively to a particular colliery.


CAPTAIN W. E. SCHUSTER.
*Mr. CASGRAIN:: 
MR. W. F. O'CONNOR, K.C.
Mr. BURNHAM:: 1.	Was (Mr. O'Connor, K.C., late Cost of Living Commissioner, ait the time of his appointment, required to report to superior authority in case of trouble with or change in his staff?
2.	Was the said iMr. O'Connor free to make and make public, and as a matter of fact, did he make and make public such reports as he deemed it necessary to make as said Commissioner?


Hon. Mr. CROTHERS:: 1.	Mr. O'Connor was and is a secretary in the Department of Justice, as to part of hie time, was loaned to. the Department of Labour without any reference to "superior authority."
2.	Yes.


LT.-COLONEL H. B. TREIMAIN, (M.P.
Mr. DESLAURIERS:: 1.	Is H. B. Tremain, M.P., for Hants, Nova Scotia, in the employ of tht Militia Department?
2.	If so, what pay is he drawing?
3.	When was he appointed?
4.	What amount of money has he received?
5.	Is his wife drawing separation allowance?
6.	If so, how much has 'been paid to her to date?
Major-General MEWBURN:
1.	Lt.JColonel H. B. Tremain, M.P., is an officer of the Canadian Expeditionary Force, and is at present on leave without pay.
2.	No pay.
3.	November 9, 1915.
4.	This information is being obtained from the Overseas Military Forces cf Canada.
5 andi 6. Separation allowance has been paid to the wife of this officer, from November 3, 1915, to April 30, 1917. Total payments, $1,076. The account is now closed.


*Mr. TOBIN:: 1.	Who is the secretary of the (Minister of Labour?
2.	What is his name?
3.	When was he appointed, and at what salary ?
4.	What is his salary now?
5.	Where is he from?


Hon. Mr. CROTHERS:: 1 and 2. J. C. McKellar.
3.	April, 1912; $1,600.
4.	$2,000.
5.	St. Thomas.


PRICE OF CHEESE AND CONDENSED MILK.
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. S. F. GLASS (Middlesex East):: I wish to make an inquiry of the Government with reference to an article in this morning's Montreal Gazette relating to the matter of fixing the price of cheese in Canada for 1918. It is reported that the Dairy Produce Commission yesterday, in Montreal, authorized that the,price of cheese be fixed as follows for the year 1918: 23 cents per pound for No. 1 grade, f.o.b. steamer at Montreal; 22J cents per pound for No. 2 grade, and 22 cents for No. 3 grade. After fully considering the whole situation, the commission unanimously approved of the proposal. A committee was also appointed to take into consideration the matter of fixing the price of condensed milk. The price of condensed milk has an important bearing on the price of cheese, and I wanted to inquire-


Mr. SPEAKER:: The hon. member cannot enter into a discussion of the matter. If he wishes to put a question, he may do so.


Samuel Francis Glass: Am I in order in reading the statement as it is?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I do not think so. .The hon. member may call the attention of the (Government to the Statement, and put a question with regard to it.


Samuel Francis Glass: May I ask the Government whether the facts as reported in the Gazette are correct? Is it the intention of the Government to fix the price of other dairy product's so that they will be on a parity with the price fixed for cheese?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: In the absence of the Minister of Agriculture, I cannot say definitely whether the report is correct or not; I assume that it is so far as the fixing of the price of cheese is concerned. I will call the attention of the Minister of Agriculture to the remaining portion of my hon. friend's question.	[DOT]


MILITARY SERVICE ACT.
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. E. PREVOS'T (Terrebonne) (translation) :	Mr. Speaker, before the Orders
of the Day are called, I beg to point out to the Government the following facts as they were reported to me in a letter which I have just received.
It is in further reference to the brutal unjust dealings of the Federal police officers in the carrying out of the Compulsory Military Service Act. Here is the letter addressed to me by a notable citizen of TeTrebonne, in my own county, and which is dated April 24.
Mr. J. E. PrSvost, M.P.,
Ottawa.
Sir,
Since this morning, on the 23rd, there are in Terrebonne-
Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Order. The hon. member is not in order. If he wishes to put a question to the Government, he may do so; he cannot read a letter.


Mr. PREVQST (translation):: With your permission, I shall ask the Government whether they have any knowledge of the facts which are pointed out to me in this letter. There would have been in Terrebonne, in my county, since the 23rd instant, some twenty-five Federal policemen who are, so it is said, looking after some shirkers under this Act. On the 23rd, they arrested a young man who was the bearer, since the autumn previous, of a certificate of exemption from the local tribunal of Terrebonne. This certificate was taiken away from him, at noon, while he was going back to his work, and they refused to return it to him under the pretence that it was worthless. When he passed by in the evening, he was arrested and detained, as a prisoner, until a late hour in the evening, when certain interested friends of his telephoned to the registrar, Mr. Godin, who ordered his release. They also attempted to take away the papers from another youth who resisted and refused to part with them as he would then have been without any means of showing that he was not transgressing the Military Service Act. Several

of these officers are thus overzealous in apprehending young conscripts. The young man, whose exemption papers were thus taken away from him, resides at Saint Franqois de Sales, in the county of Laval and Two Mountains. I do ask the Government whether they are cognizant of these facts and, if hot, whether they propose fully investigating them. Moreover, I suggest that they should see to it that an end is put t-o .such ruthless proceedings in the carrying out of warrants. They are in themselves an explanation of the dissatisfaction which is widespread throughout the country.	[DOT]


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Order. I must ask hon. members not to abuse the privilege which allows questions on urgent matters to be put before the Orders of the Day are called. Quite frequently questions are put which should more properly go on the Order paper in the ordinary course, so that the Government may have notice of them. There can be no objection to an important question regarding a matter of policy. But matters dealing with individual eases should not be brought up on the Orders of the Day.


MILITARY SERVICE-(MEN MEDICALLY UNFIT.
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. JACQUES BUREAU (Three Rivers):: I desire to call attention to an error in the Hansard report. Yesterday I put the following question to the Minister of Militia:
Are the men In Class "E" exempted under medical certificates obliged1 to report under the new Order in Council which has been passed ?
The report says class " D ", but what I wanted to know was whether men in class E, medically unfit, were required to report under the new Order 'in Council. As the question is reported, some confusion might be created. I understand that men in class D are those temporarily unfit, while those in class E are permanently unfit for service. Further on, speaking about the medical certificate, what I meant-and what I think I said, though it may have been misunderstood-was would the medical certificate of the Military Board appointed for the purpose be sufficient to exempt a man declared medically unfit. From the reply made to me by the minister, I think he understood my question aright.
Major-General MEWBLTRN: I understand the hon. gentleman to refer to men in the lower category-I think he said E.

, -Mr. BUREAU: Yes.
Major-General MEWBURN: Category E consists of men not likely to become fit within six months; that is the regulation laid "down by the medical people. What I intended to say in answer to my hon. friend was this: in calling up these classes of 20, 21 and 22 years, we were not asking to report at present those men already registered, and who had not been put in class A by the Medical Boards. All we require is -men of -class A who are fit for service at the front. The categories laid down by the medical board are: A, fit for general service; B, fit for service abroad, but not for -gene'ral service-that would be forestry, and so on; D, temporarily unfit, but possibly becoming A or B within six months-that is, men in convalescent homes, and so on; E, not likely to become fit in six months.


Jacques Bureau: E is the class I was referring to.
Major-General MEWBURN: We had no intention of calling them. If things get worse, some of these men within the ages of 20, 21 and 22 may have to undergo another medical examination. We have, however, no intention of disturbing any of the men already declared not to be in class A.


Jules-Édouard Prévost: M-ay I expect an answer from the hon. minister relative to the facts which I have stated?


Hon. Mr. DOHERTY (translation):: Had not the hon. member from Three Rivers (Mr. Bureau) so hastily interfered, my intention was to answer my honourable friend from Terrebonne.
I must say that the Government have no knowledge of the two incidents referred to by the hon. member. If he will -give us the names of the interested parties or the names of the officers-should they be known to him-that would! help us a great -deal in taking the necessary steps, so as to ascertain whether his statements were true. As to the necessity of giving orders so that there should be no high-handed dealings, I must say that all the officers have received-the most express and formal instructions to avoid all that could be even described as partaking of, the n-atu-re of. such behaviour on the part of men so inclined.


SMALLPOX IN CAPE ISLAND DISTRICT.
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. W. S. FIELDING:: Mr. Speaker, may I be permitted to direct the attention
of the hon. the Minister of Militia and Defence to a matter which may be of more than local importance? Reports- in the press indicate that there has been a considerable outbreak of smallpox in the district of Cape Island in the western part of Nova Scotia and that the disease has been taken into that district by returned sqldiers. I venture to suggest that the hon. gentleman will, through his medidaL officers, make inquiry into the matter not only in justice to the people of the district at present concerned but because, if the report be found to be correct, it is- evident that there is danger of similar troubles occurring in other parts of the country to which returned soldiers go. I deem it my duty to bring this matter to the attention of the hon. gentleman as, if true, it indicates that there is need of a more rigid examination, first, on the part of the quarantine authorities at the ports of landing and on the part of the medical gentlemen connected with our own Department of Militia and Defence. The hon. gentleman h'as probably not heard of . it and all I desire to do is to call his- attention to-it and to ask that the matter be investigated through his medical officers.
Major-General MEWBURN (Minister of Militia and Defence):	I most assuredly
will do what my hon. friend- (Mr. Fielding) suggests. I have not had my attention called to it so far. If the hon. gentleman could give me any further information that he has I would appreciate it.


William Stevens Fielding: My only information is that which I have learned from the public press. The trouble has occurred in the district of Cape Island in Shelburne county in the western part o-f Nova Scotia. Cape Sable Island is in my district although it is not to be confused with Sable Island, the graveyard of the Atlantic. It is in the southern part of Nova Scotia where Cape Sable juts out into the Atlantic. There, quite a number of cases have occurred. It is treated, as a matter of course, as if the disease had been taken into that district by returned soldiers. That assumption may not be well founded. I am not asserting that it is but I merely ask my hon. friend to see that the matter receives attention.


THIRD READING.
[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 66, to correct a clerical error in the French version of the Naturalizatiori Act, 1914-Hon. Mr. Doherty.

[Stage Direction]
House again in committee on Bill No. 20, to amend the Inspection and Sale Act (Hay and Straw Inspection), Mr. Boivin in the Chair, continued from April 24, 1918.
On section 340f-bales to be tagged showing weight:
The CHAIRMAN:: We had reached clause 340f of the Bill and Sir George Foster had moved that the clause be struck out. The hon. member for Joliette (Mr. Denis) had moved in amendment:
That clause 340F be replaced by the following :
340F. Every seller of hay or straw in Canada shall affix to every bale of hiay' or straw sold or offered for sale a tag, having thereon, plainly written and legible, the name of the seller and the weight of the bale.
Amendment negatived and section 340f stricken from the Bill.
On subsection 340 H-How railways are to facilitate inspection:


George Green Foster: I move to strike out this subsection.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
On subsection 341-Governor in Council empowered to prescribe fees for inspection:
Mr. DENIS:: The present law provides that a fee of twenty cents a ton shall be charged by the inspector. I am at a loss to understand why the present law is not maintained, and what reason there is for making the proposed change under which the Governor in Council is given power to prescribe fees. Is it the intention of the Minister of Trade and Commerce to so regulate matters that different fees will be charged in different sections in the country?


George Green Foster: My hon. friend has, I think, the right idea. Sections where inspection may he carried out may differ very largely as to the quantity of hay which is inspected in each district. An inspector is paid by fees, hut it is impossible to get an inspector, or to keep him, unless he derives sufficient remuneration from those fees, that being the only payment made to him. It may he impossible in some districts to even get an inspector, although he may be wanted there, unless a higher fee be fixed than in a district requiring a large number of inspections. That is one reason. The other reason is this : If there are many inspections and the experience of the year shows -that after the expenses have been met

and a fair remuneration made to the inspector there is too large a surplus, so that the inspector may be getting more than he ought to, in that case the fee may be reduced somewhat so as to bring the amount derived up to a reasonable remuneration. That is the object sought to .be accomplished.


Jean-Joseph Denis: My opinion was that in certain cases the fee was high enough, or even too high.


George Green Foster: Yes.


Jean-Joseph Denis: The minister's explanation is quite intelligible to me, and therefore I have no objection to offer.
Mr. MAH1ARG:	Are we to understand
from the minister that the inspection fee may vary according to districts?


George Green Foster: Yes.


Air. MAHARG:: Does the minister not
think that that is a very unfair principle? It does not apply to other products of the farm, for example, all kinds of grain and stock. In such cases the inspection fee is a flat rate, and I understand the inspectors are paid a fixed salary. If there is any shortage the Government makes good the deficit, and if there should be a surplus it stands to the Government's credit. I think the change proposed will work a hardship and prevent an. inspection from *being had where it is really wanted.


George Green Foster: The whole system of inspection, so far as this. Act is concerned', is based on its not being compulsory; no one is obliged, to pay the fee. unless he so wishes. The system is also based on the .principle of payment by fee, and not by salary, so that my hon. friend (Mr. Maharg) will see that in some cases unless the fee were fairly good it would be impossible for the district to get the services of an inspector, whilst in other districts, where there was a large quantity of hay to be inspected, a fixed fee might take more from the sellers than would be advisable and might yield a larger salary to the inspector than he should reasonably ask. Taking into account the differences in districts, it is almost impossible to prescribe a fixed fee unless you give a salary which shall work equitably. That is the reason for the provision to fix the fee by Order in Council. I think my hon. friend (Mr. Maharg) will see that unless you pay salaries there is no other equitable w.ay by which in the first place you could get good inspectors, and in the second place make provision

that the inspectors should sufficiently be paid in certain cases, and not paid too much in others.


Mr. GERVALS:: Mr. Chairman, after the discussion raised by the remarks of my (hon. friend from Lapraii'ie and Napierville (Mr. Lanctot) in connection with section, 340f of this Bill, the hon. Minister of Trade and -Commerce has deemed it proper to strike out that section. After further discussion, it was thought proper by the . hon. member for Joliette (Mr. Denis) to move an amendment to that section providing for the identification of hay when it has reached its destination. The hon. minister thought it proper to have the discussion adjourned on this motion.
Section 341 now under consideration deals with such fees as shall be charged by the inspector. I have read' the Bill through over and over again, and 'I must confess that, apart from section 341, the Bill under consideration does not in any respect differ from the Act passed in 1906; the only requisite provision and the one which is the most -essential-I mean the clause providing for identification of the hay-has been cut out by, the honourable minister himself, and he has also discarded the clause which provides for the official grading of hay and of straw. I cannot see what is the use of a Bill like this which is really a repetition of the Act passed in 1906. If the intention is only to change the inspectors' salaries, why not proceed in the usual way, i.e., by amendments or by Order in Council?


Mr. McKENZIE:: I think it is very desirable that the fees to be charged by inspectors should, if possible, be enumerated in the Act-.' The minister himself doubtless understands that the interested parties would like to have the fees to be charged inserted in the Act, and, of course, the cost of inspection is a very important part of the proceedings. Now the sellers on consulting the Act, if passed in its present form, will be unable to learn how much the inspection is going to cost them, or what the Act means, unless they get a copy of the Order in Council which is referred to. It is always desirable to have an Act of Parliament complete in itself and to embody all its requirements within its four corners. I would, therefore, urge upon the minister to carry out my suggestion. Let the Bill stand- over for a few days until the nature of the Order in Council has been determined, and then incorporate in it the requirements of that Order in Council. I am sure that the whole country will
then appreciate very much better the provisions of the law, and the interested parties- be saved the trouble of looking around in order to ascertain what may or may not be in the Order in Council. It might be fixed in this way: in the schedule of fees the amount could be fixed at so much per ton, not to exceed so much per day. If a man, at the rate of 20 cents a ton, would make too much pay for one day, a maximum amount which he could not exceed could be put in the Bill. And, if there is not sufficient tonnage to be inspected to yield a fair day's pay at the rate per ton, there could be a provision in the schedule that he is to receive not less than a minimum amount per day. If a man requires an inspector to inspect, say three tons of hay, it could be provided that the inspector would receive half a day's pay or more, as the case may be.
Sir GEORGE FOSTETt: Who will pay that?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The man who hires the inspector.


George Green Foster: In that case, if the man hires- the inspector on a day that there is not much hay to be inspected, he will pay the inspector a large amount. If he gets his hay inspected on a day when there is a large amount, then he will get the inspection -for a very small amount. My hon. friend will see that it is practically impossible to let the Bill stand over for a day, or several days, on that account. Take, for instance,, my hon. friend's own locality. There is -a difference between Sydney, or North Sydney-which is the hub down there -and Montreal. You appoint an inspector for Montreal, and say that he shall receive 20 cents for every ton inspected. Montr real, I suppose, in the course of the season may possibly handle 30,000 to 50,000 tons of hay. Sydney would require inspection for comparatively a much smaller amount. It is impossible to fix in the law the amount which would be reasonable for Montreal -and which would -also be reasonable for -North Sydney, and it is impossible to find out just how many districts there may be with varying capacities of h.ay to be inspected, and to fix the fees according to the capacity of inspection. I think my hon. friend will see that, with all the desire possible to ha,ve everything in the Act that can be pu-t in, it is impossible to put the fees in the Act and have an equitable arrangement.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I cannot see, Mr. Chairman, how it is possible to put an equitable

fee in an Order in Council which it is not possible to put in an Act.


George Green Foster: I will explain. My hon. friend, or the people in North Sydney, demand an inspection district. We get, as far as possible, statistics with reference to the amount of hay that is sold on the market in North Sydney, and an estimate will be made from that as to what proportion of that hay will be inspected when it is sold, because inspection is not compulsory. The Order in Council will then fix the fee at a rate which would give the man who is to be appointed as inspector at North Sydney a reasonable amount for his time and labour. You could not get a man in any other way, it seems to me. So, you have to take the circumstances of the district into account in fixing the fee. That you cannot do in the Bill.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: As I understand it- and I am not familiar with the old Act- the present fee is 20 cents a ton. Perhaps the minister h-as had some complaints about it. I have not heard of any general complaint about that fee being too small or too great. It is evidently regarded as a fair charge. Why change the condition?


Sir GEOEGE FOSTEE:: I will tell my hon. friend. We hope and I think everybody wishes, that more and more we should get into the habit of appraising our hay by standards and selling it by standards, and on inspection. It is better for the farmer, the dealer, and the consumer as well. It gives the latter a protection. At the present time, inspection is only carried on at three places in Canada, namely, Toronto, Montreal, and', I think, Kingston. It is only at 'these large centres that we have had any experience as a basis to work on. You fix the fee which may be proper for these large centres. Then a small district applies to have inspection put in force. It finds the fee fixed in the law but you cannot get a competent man to do the work in the small section, with a small quantity to be inspected, for that-fixed fee. Then if it is necessary and considered advisable to arrange an inspection district in that other district, you would have to grade the fee according to the probable amount to be inspected, with a view to giving the man something worth his trouble for inspection. That is the reason.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I quite understand that, and am not going to press the matter,
I am still of the opinion that what I suggest would carry out the idea, and enable a seller to get an inspector. In the larger

districts, 20 cents a ton has been found to be a satisfactory and workable fee under the Act. But, I suppose, the minister does not wish to be bothered creating new districts every day. He is prepared to create a new district, and to arrange from time to time a rate of fees for inspection in that new district. But, if he had a maximum and minimum charge for any district in the Bill, all he would have to do would be to create his district, and the fees would come into effect. In North Sydney, where there is not very much inspection of hay, if the inspector has twenty or thirty tons, or even less, to inspect, the farmer knows that quantity will take perhaps half a day, and he knows he will have to pay at the rate of 20 cents a ton, but at the most not more than two or three dollars to the inspector. Where the rate per ton would not be sufficient remuneration, there is the minimum charge for a day's work provided for. My particular desire is that this Bill should be complete in itself and have all the machinery in it. So far as I am personally concerned in my county it does not concern me very much, but I do know as a lawyer that a law should be as complete as possible.


George Eulas Foster: If it is possible.
Mr. LAN'CTOT: Inspection is carried on at Montreal for the hay purchased by the Department of Agriculture at the present time, I understand. In the local market my experience is that, in very few cases, have we been obliged to go to an inspector. The difficulty is always settled without an inspector, if the seller knows hay and the buyer knows it too. During the discussion of this Bill yesterday, many opinions were expressed, one especially by an hon. member from British Columbia. I think I may be permitted to refer to the whole discussion in a few minutes, if possible. We were discussing one clause regarding stained hay and rotten hay. Some hon. members from this side of the House claimed that that sort of hay should be allowed on the market. I object to that, Mr. Chairman, because I stand for the reputation of Canadian hay. It does the farmer no good to put poor or rotten hay on the market. Now, the minister seems to be struck with the inspection phase :>f the matter and nothing else. The dealers and the farmers do not care much about the classification of hay, because, as I said yesterday, that is made by the dealer. We sell by the grade. But what we want left in the Bill is the clause which has been

struck out, No. 340f, to hold the farmer responsible for the hay that he has pressed from his barn. You know very well, Mr. Chairman, that the dealer buys the hay from the farmer, and in my section of the country 95 per cent of the farmers have presses of their own. When there is a large crop of hay in our section or in the whole country, we have stacked hay all over the country. We buy the barn hay and the stacked hay on condition that the farmer will pay attention to the pressing, and do it when the weather is fine. Supposing a presser comes to a farm today, and the weather is fine. The farmer tells him to put his hay press near some stacks of hay which he has in the field. The presser does so, and he starts the machine. The next day it .rains perhaps only a very little. The presser, who may have three or four men working for him, says: It is true it is raining a little, but we are going to finish pressing this stack to-day. They do so. That hay is then put into the barn, and perhaps owing to the scarcity of cars, which we have had in this country for the last year or two, that hay may remain in the bam all winter. What will happen? That hay, if it has been pressed in bad condition, will freeze in the barn when the cold weather comes. When it is finally taken to the car, a man who knows his business can immeddatly tell if the hay is in bad shape or not, and he will say: the bales are like pieces of ice or iron. But if a man who does not know *anything about hay, is handling it, he will simply take the tally of the hay and throw it into the car, and it will be taken to (Chicago, or New York, or elsewhere. Three or four weeks later, the man to whom the hay has been delivered will make a complaint that the hay is in such bad shape that he cannot sell it for sufficient to cover the freight and duty. The farmers throughout the country should be made aware of this Bill for their own benefit in the future, so that they will not press hay when the weather is unsuitable, and so that they will press hay only when it is in good condition. The Minister of Public *Works (Mr. Carvell) is a farmer himself and he knows I am speaking for the benefit of the farmers of this country.


Mr. CARVELL:: How is the hon. member going to stop the farmers from pressing *hay?


Mr. LANOTOT:: If some one is there,
il	am speaking, however, for the hay dealer who ibuys hay over a section of thirty, or forty, or fifty square miles.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes.


Roch Lanctôt: 
Georges Henri Boivin: I did not desire to. interrupt the hon. member, but the very interesting address which we have just heard has absolutely nothing to do with the clause 341 which is under consideration, and which refers only to the fees.


Roch Lanctôt: I have spoken for the benefit of the farmers.


Jean-Joseph Denis: I accept at once the principle that it would hardly be fair to have an equal standard rate throughout the country, and I think every one admits that; but, as suggested by the hon. member for North Cape Breton (Mr. McKenzie), the law should be made clear. Before Orders in Council are passed determining the fees that are to be paid in different sections of this country, information will have to he gathered. This information may already he available to the minister. Consequently, for the sake of having a clear and good law, and a law in which the fees will be well determined, why not, if the information is available, fix the fees now, and have- a schedule at the end of the Bill, or dispose of the matter in any other way in which the minister may see fit, so as to determine what the fees are to be? Otherwise, we shall not know what the fees are. As a lawyer, I should he in an awkward position if a man

came to me and said: I have some hay on my farm in a certain locality, and I want to know what the fee is for inspecting it. I should not know what the fee is unless I wrote to the Government for the information.


George Green Foster: The hon. member will only have t6 keep on file a copy of the Canada Gazette, and I imagine he does so.


Jean-Joseph Denis: Yes, but supposing I could answer the question, the average trader could not do it.


George Green Foster: The average
trader is not likely to have a copy of the statute. My hon. friend, of course, always keeps that by him.


Jean-Joseph Denis: When the fees are written in the statute, the matter will always be plain.


George Green Foster: That is absolutely impossible, because my hon. friend goes on the assumption that we have mapped out this country into districts, and that we have obtained the information with
4 p.m. reference to the different districts. We are not going to map out and form any district unless there is a local demand for it. This is an enabling Act. I have no idea, and there is no information in the department as to whether North Sydney, or any other district, or how many of them will ask for an inspection district to be created, so that it will be impossible to have the information ready so as to put in the schedules with the fees appropriate to each schedule. The information is not available, and if we were to schedule every district in the country, we would be doing a great deal of work which would be altogether superfluous.


Mr. JOSEPH READ:: This clause,
as it stands, is correct. It will obviate a similar difficulty to that which I brought up yesterday in reference to canned foods. One of the difficulties in regard to small factories is that there is no inspection because the quantity turned out is so small. I understand such small factories have no regulations. If in the Bill that was passed yesterday with regard to canned foods there had been a regulation like this one, the difficulty of which I was then speaking would be obviated. Similarly, in the case of hay, there are numbers of districts that will produce fifty, one hundred, or two hundred tons of hay, and in order to have an inspection there, it would be necessary to fix a higher rate than that

at a place like Montreal in which ,a thousand or two thousand tons a day are inspected. A maximum and a minimum fee might be set, but it would destroy the effect of the Bill to make the amount too small, because, in that case, you would not be able to get an inspector at all.
On clause 342-penalty for putting foreign matter in bales:


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Would the minister regard the introduction of No. 2 hay into a No. 1 bale as putting foreign matter into the bale? Would that bring a man within the penalty prescribed by law?


George Green Foster: The case is not for decision, and I do not know what the opinion of the judge would be. Personally, I think foreign matter would mean straw, bundles of weeds, dirt, stones or anything of that kind. These things have been put into baled hay more than once; I do not know that it is a very common offence, but it is certainly a very nasty one and deserves a heavy penalty. I do not think foreign matter would include hay of a different grade. A case of that kind would be covered by the inspection.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The clause says that any foreign matter which improperly increases the weight of the bale or prejudicially affects its quality, will render a man liable. The introduction of a lower grade would, in my judgment, certainly affect prejudicially the quality of a bale of No. I hay.	1


George Green Foster: You would also have to consider whether that was foreign matter or not. I should think it would be an offence against the Act to introduce hay of inferior quality into a bale of good hay.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The hon. member for Huntingdon mentioned the other day that that sort of thing is done. A man may see a beautiful mow of hay in a barn and arrange to buy it and have the farmer press it for him, but when he gets it, he finds that it has been mixed with an inferior class of hay. I think this clause was designed to provide to some extent against such an offence.


Joseph-Charles-Théodore Gervais: The Bill provides a penalty for the person putting any substance or foreign body in hay. How will you know when the hay is in a foreign market who has put in a stone, for example?
You have rejected the identification clause. How are you to know who owned the hay when the stone was placed there?
%


George Green Foster: The penalty is
for a general offence in the way of fraud, *and whoever tried the case would exercise his judigment as to the kind of fraud that was intended. There are a thousand things that might be put in, hut it would 'be impossible to cumber up the Act with all these details. I think we cannot do better than to allow the person who tries the case to say whether the offence comes within the Act.


Jean-Joseph Denis: One of the reasons why I
insisted so strpngly on my amendment last night was to make the present clause more effective. John Jones or Tom Smith would not know who had committed the fraud unless his name appeared on the bale.


George Green Foster: The imposition
of a penalty tends to lessen the liability of the offence being committed.
*Clause as amended agreed to.
On clause 340C-grades:


George Green Foster: The question
was raised yesterday as to what constituted No. 1 grade of straw. I have been in communication with the Department of Agriculture and they have made this suggestion, which I think is a very good one: that there is a kind of straw, probably not very plentiful, which could be clearly defined as No. 1 and be made a merchantable grade. This straw is of good feeding value. I therefore beg to move that after the word "follows" in the first line of clause 340C we insert the following:
SMo. 1 straw shall be bright, clean, well-saved oat straw suitable for feeding purposes.
I think this would be a good (Straw to fix as No. 1.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
George Green Foster: I move:	*
That 34-OC. be further amended by adding after the word "straw" in the second line, the following; words:	"from all cultivated cereals."
Amendment agreed1 to.


George Green Foster: To correct an error in the printing, I move:
That 340 be amended by striking- out from line 22 the words "of fair colour and sound," and replacing them by the words: "of good odour, sound and well (Cured."


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
members in regard to it. Since the matter came up this afternoon I sent for the * original Act of which this is an amendment, but so far I have been unable to obtain it. I hardly know just what changes are made by section 340.
George Green Foster: In general, the changes made under the amendments just adopted are almost nil. Practically, the substance of 340 is the same as the old Act.


Mr. COPP:: In what we call the dike lands in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, an exceptionally fine quality of marketable hay is grown which is not strong in timothy, as the upland hay is. I refer to the counties of Albert and Westmorland in New Brunswick, Oumberland, and possibly the Annapolis valley, in Nova Scotia. I fear that hay grown on these dike lands will not measure up to the standard of grades 1, 2 and 3 timothy, and as a resuit of this legislation, an excellent quality of hay may be forced on the market at a lower price than would otherwise he the case.


George Green Foster: Is it within my hon. friend's knowledge that this has actually resulted?
IMr. COPP: No, we have had no inspectors there. For instance, a quantity of hay shipped from that section of the country to North Cape Breton and Victoria might be turned down by the inspector there because it did not contain the specified proportion of timothy/ Could some words not be added to the Bill with reference to this hay grown on dike lands?


George Green Foster: If my hon. friend will communicate his suggestion to me in writing, I shall be glad to have the officers of the department take it up, and it may (be considered in the Senate.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Bill reported.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
Public Buildings, Nova Scotia-Amherst Drill HaLl, $10,000.
['I move, seconded by Mr. Oalder, that the name of Mr. H. J. Mackie, member for North Renfrew, be added to the Select Standing Committee on Agriculture.']
Jacques Bureau: Is this a new building?


Arthur Bliss Copp: I was unable to be present IMr. CARVELL: No, The amount is to yesterday when this Bill was under dis- cover some small expenditures necessary cussion, and I have not had an opportunity to finish the building, which must have of reading the remarks made by different cost about $150,000.



My recollection is that there is* a little flooring to be put in, cleaning up and general finishing.


Mr. McCREA:: Is it the intention of the Government to build any new drill halls? I understand there are several that are built and that it is a bill of expense to keep them warm and looked after, although nothing is doing and there has not been for years.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I suppose that practically everything in connection with war time is a bill of expense. You cannot measure the value of a public work in war time by the expense it has been to the public. I think the true measure would be the service which these public buildings have rendered to the army in the last three or four years. But, to answer my hon. friend's question, I do not know that there is anything in these Estimates providing for new drill halls. I am pretty sure there is not and, if there is, while I will not ask the committee to strike it out, I will give the assurance that there will not be any new works undertaken along that line during the coming year.
Halifax-Quarantine station on Lawlor's Island-'Water supply', $10',000.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This is for the purpose of boring an artesian well at Lawlor's Island. They have had a great deal of difficulty in providing a suitable fresh water supply at the quarantine station there. HaLf of this amount is a revote.
New Brunswick - St. John - Dominion buildings-improvements, repairs-, etc., $5,000.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This is just the general vote to take care of the small repairs that became necessary in public buildings.


Mr. LEGER:: Has the minister any intention of continuing the work of erecting a public building to provide for the post office and custom house in the village of Buctouche in the county of Kent? An appropriation was made for that work a few years ago and a certain amount of work was done. Is it the intention to go on with the work?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I find nothing in the
Estimates for that. It has not been 'brought to my attention before. I do not know whether anything has been done except the purchase of a site some time before the war. However, I must say to my hon. friend that at the present time I can hold out no hope of erecting a public building for him much as I would like to- do so, because Buctouche, I realize, is one of

the most progressive towns in the whole province. But, on account of -the present financial stringency, I would not feel justified in starting any new expenditures of that kind.


Auguste Théophile Léger: An appropriation was made for this work two or three years ago and we expected that it wpuld be continued. I th-ink the war was on at that time. Buctouche is a very important little town. There is a great lumbering business done there -and also a large -mercantile business. There -are two grist mills and the country surrounding Buctouche is important from the agricultural point of view. It is a fine farming country. Therefore, I feel justified in bringing the matter to the atttention of -the minister in order to find out if anything is to be done. L know that some money was expended there. The site was bought, but I do not know how far it went beyond that.


Mr. MICHAUD:: The Minister of Public Works is aware of the fact that in the town of Edmundston there is great need for improvement in 'the post office accommodation. During the past ten years this town has contributed $400,000 to the revenue of the country. It has had receipts from customs and post office to the amount of $40,000 a year and this amount has been paid into the public treasury. As my hon. friend is aware, Edmundston has a population of about 3,000. At the present moment we are building pulp mills which will cost some $3,000,000. We need -a new post office very badly. There is practically no accommodation at the present moment. In view of the amount of money which this town contributes to the revenue Of the country, and in view of the prospect of it having -a large increase in population in a short time, it must be apparent that we need better accommodation. My hon. friend is aware that this is a very important town in many ways. He h*s visited it on many occasions and he knows where the present post office is situated and the great inconvenience we have in sorting and distributing the mail three or four times a day. In view of all the money that we have paid- to the treasury of the country, we are surely entitled to consideration. 'I hope my hon. friend, who knows the circumstances and locality very well, will not hesitate to come to our rescue and give us a public building.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: In reply to the very modest request of my hon. friend from M-adawask-a (Mr. Michaud) I would say it is true that I know 'the Ideation of the post office in Edmundston. 1 have been there many times and I only wish I were in a

position to bring before Parliament a vote ot $15,000 or $20,000 for the erection of a public building in that very thriving tbwn. Without any exception at all there is no town, or city, in New Brunswick, possibly with the exception of Bathurst, which is progressing as rapidly as Edmundston. My hon. friend is quite right when he says that it has a population of about 3,000 people. Probably that population will increase by 1,000 or
2,000	the next two years. The only postoffice accommodation which they have for a town of that isize is a room in an ordinary dwelling house. Only a few days ago I received a 'letter from a very influential resident of the town outlining to me what he considered the necessities of the case, but I have not had time up to the present to investigate the real facts and see how much the postmistress is receiving in the way of rental, because, after all, the amount which she is receiving as a rental ought to a very great degree to decide what kind of accommodation should be given. I have no hesitation in saying, from my own personal knowledge, that the citizens are entitled to better accommodation than they are now receiving. I will take the matter up with the post office .authorities and see what I can do. In the communication which I received they asked for the expenditure of the modest sum of $400, which they stated would practically give the whole lower portion of the dwellinghouse for the purpose of the office, and would provide a place for the people to even come inside cut of the rain, because as it is to-day they simply come to the door, no matter what the weather may be, and stand until they get served with their mail. I think I can go so far as to promise my hon. friend that if the Post Office Department will not properly take care of this matter I will be able to find at least $400 in order to give better accommodation than exists at present, but as to a new building I can only give him the same answer as I gave to my hon. friend from Kent (Mr. Leger).


Pius Michaud: The minister will not
forget that our -evenues are sufficient each year to warrant the building of a post office.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That may be true, but
I do not want the hon. gentleman to forget that after all that money has been expended we have got to borrow four or five hundred million dollars more to carry on the affairs of the country.
'Maritime Provinces	generally

Dominion
Public Buildings-Improvements, repairs, etc, $25,000.
72J


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: In view of the great advance in the cost of living, has the Minister of Public Works made any provision for augmenting the salaries of caretakers -of public buildings in Canada? I have reference particularly to my own province, but the question is just as applicable to other parts of the Dominion1. Before the war, and even for some -years previously, prices were soaring and under such circumstances janitors of public buildings must have found their salaries which do not exceed at most $300 or $400 quite inadequate. Some of these men in the country districts have five or six children to maintain, and now that the cost of living has doubled, in some cases more than doubled,
it.	has been madfe pretty manifest that these people find' it exceedingly difficult to live on the small salary paid to them. I would be pleased to know if the minister has granted these caretakers any advance, and if not, would he give the matter his consideration and see that such a salary is paid as w-ill enable them to live fairly comfortably.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This matter has received a great deal of attention during the last six months. I am told, and I believe it is true, that on the advent of every new minister of Public Works practically everybody in the service puts up a demand fox more pay. This has not only happened -recently, but it is a general occurrence. These demands came in shoals almost in the months of November and December last, and realizing the force of just such .arguments as the hon. gentleman has- been giving to the committee this afternoon, w-e endeavoured to place the salaries of all these caretakers on some- sort of equitable basis. We found that in some -cases the salaries were not properly adjusted-, and we therefore took $1,000 as a basis of what a man's salary should be. We then deducted from that amount what would be the reasonable value of the privileges accorded -him in the way of rent, light, heat and water, all of which, of course, are primary necessities in the cost of living, andi gave the man the balance in the form of salary. I think, therefore, that if my hon. friend will make inquiry he will find that practically every caretaker in Canada is treated exactly upon the same basis. I am not sure* as to the actual details, but I think that in the big cities the basis is a little larger than $1,000, and. if that be the lba$is in large cities it is somewhat less in the smaller towns, because, naturally, rent would be a heavier item in a large city than it would be in a

small town. I can assure my hon. friend that we have tried to work out this question of the salaries of caretakers on a fair and equitable basis, and so much so that I do not think that there has been a complaint or request on that score put up to the department in the last two months. If there has been any, it has escaped my memory.


Auguste Théophile Léger: Is there an appropriation
for repairs to the post office at. Riohibucto in the eouinty of Kent? I understand that it is intended to provide a concrete walk to the post- office, and as that would cost only a small amount I would draw the attention of the minister to the desirability of this work being undertaken at an early date.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: In looking over the
accounts I find we spent about $200 upon the public buildings in Riohibucto last year. I cannot say offhand whether it is intended to spend any more money out of this vote upon that work, but I will make a note of my hon. friend's suggestion. We will have the matter investigated by our architects and endeavour to do all that we can to meet his wishes.


Auguste Théophile Léger: The money expended last
year was devoted to painting part of the front of the building; the sides and the back of the building were left unpainted. What I am now urging is that all the painting should be finished, and the present wooden sidewalk leading to the building, which was laid many years ago and is in a bad state of repair, ibe replaced by a concrete pathway.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I will take a note of my hon. friend's suggestion.
Province of Quebec, Dominion Public Buildings-Improvements, repairs, etc., $35,000.


Mr. LAVIGUEUR:: To what buildings
in Quebec does this item apply?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The item covers practically all the public buildings in Quebec province; and is utilized by the expenditure of a few dollars here and a few dollars there. The money is intended to cover unforeseen expenses in conducting the public buildings of the province, and no minister could state offhand exactly how he proposes to distribute this vote of $35,000. Money is voted for this purpose every year to be expended as the officers of the department think proper.	1


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: Is $35,000 sufficient to keep in repair all the public buildings in Quebec?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There are other items
devoted to special buildings. The vote under consideration is intended to be used as thought best to keep the public buildings generally in a state of repair.


Mr. LEMIEUX:: It is applicable in unforeseen cases*


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes.
Mr DuTREMBLAY:	Am I to understand that when there are large repairs tenders are invited?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Wherever it is possible to have work done by tender that course will be followed. This vote has reference to small repairs the need for which develops in the operation of the year's work.
I can assure my hon. friend that if any of these works are of such a nature as to permit of tenders being called, that system will be adopted.
Mr. DuTREMBLAY: I understand there is a list in each city of the names of contractors or employees', and those who get the work are 'selected from these lists.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have heard of that myself.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: .Surely not.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Of course, I am going back a long time now, but my memory is fairly good. I want to assure my hon. friend (Mr. Du Tremblay) that that method has been aboli^ied, and foTgotten I hope. In future any work such as the hon. member describes, which must be done by day work, will be done under the direct supervision of the engineer in charge of the work, and he alone will have the right of choosing the men or firms, to carry it out, and then we will hold him responsible that it is properly done; I think when the responsibility is put on the shoulders of the proper officer we will come pretty close to getting the best results that can possibly be had.


Rodolphe Lemieux: 
Francis N. McCrea: Has the minister been long enough in harness yet to discover that there is a larger number of employees of one kind or another in the public departments than there is work for, or who are receiving salaries above the value of the service they are giving? Without mentioning any particular place or office, I have one -in my mind, and it has been a puzzle to me for some years past to know what its employees are doing. That office 'has a staff of an engineer and several assistants, and I am very curious to know how much work they are superintending, or what the value of the work that they look after is compared with the amount of salaries paid. I think this same condition applies to many offices all over this country. What I would like to know from the minister is whether he has discovered that the offices in his department are a good deal overmanned?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I was not very long in the department before I learned many of the things that my hon. friend is alluding to, and I can assure you it has given me more trouble than almost anything else to arrive at a fair and equitable way of rectifying the condition. It is a hard thing for any man who professes to have a heart in him to simply say to a man: "Your services' are no longer required; get out." Yet it may come to that. I can say to my hon. friend that for the last four months, practically since the New Year, the department has been obtaining the most reliable reports it could possibly get on every officer in the public service. We have these pretty well codified now, and all over the Dominion, I regret to say, there are a great many in official positions who,, I do not think, are rendering very much service for the money they are receiving. It is a very unpleasant duty, forced upon a new minister especially, to relieve these men of their positions, and perhaps throw them out, knowing that many are not in a position to enter a new business or profession. The Public Works Department has just recently taken over the construction of all works heretofore carried on by the Military Hospitals Commission. We feel that very many of the officials who have not very much to do, as there are no ordinary public works going on, can be utilized in connection with inspection and other duties in this new work, and I am in hopes that in that way we may absorb a very large number of them. Quite a number have already been dispensed with. These are the men who practically were performing no services whatever on account very largely of the reduced expenditures. I can assure my hon. friend, however, that we have given the subject our very best consideration, and the House may rest assured that within a very few months these people will either be absorbed in some work for which they will be giving valuable services to the country or they will disappear from the pay roll.


Francis N. McCrea: I was glad to hear the minister say that his department was overmanned, but I was rather sorry to hear of his being so chickenhearted that he did not feel like dispensing with the services of those employees for whom there is no work There have been times in the' history of this country when it was quite a hardship for men to be thrown out of a job, for the reason that there was nothing for them to do. But this particular time is not one of those times.
At this particular time a man who is out of a job need not be pitied, because there is plenty of work to do, and there is no necessity for keeping a man in the Government employ, or in the employ of any other party, if there is no business for him to do. I hope the minister and all the other members of the Government will realize that this is the country's money we are

spending, and that the country is very short of money just now. I hope they will lay aside their tender heartedness and dispense with the services of every man who has nothing to do and who is not earning money for King and country.


Mr. CANNON:: Is there a staff of architects looking after repairs to public works and buildings?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: We have a staff of architects in every province, and we have staffs in different districts of certain provinces.


Lucien Cannon: In the Auditor General's Report, page V-30, I notice a Mr. J. P. Ouellet last year received $2,196.08 for work done in connection with the maintenance and construction of buildings tor the Public Works Department.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Where?


Lucien Cannon: In the city of Quebec. Is there an architect looking after public works in the city of Quebec?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: My information is that the gentleman referred to is an architect who received a certain commission by way of remuneration for 'his services in looking after the erection of a public building in the city of Quebec. That would not be a regular employment. He received the salary last yar. He might receive something this year, although I think not, because the building has been practically completed. The position is not a permanent one. The gentleman has received simply a commission. The practice has grown up-I am [DOT] not condemning it, neither am I advocating it-of handing the inspection of important public buildings to certain architects on a commission basis. They get their pay while the work progresses, and, of course, they cease to be officers of the department after the work is finished.


Lucien Cannon: Is there in the city of Quebec an architect to look after the work done on public buildings, and, if there is, -why is Mr. Ouellet employed in his stead?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There is, in the city of Quebec, Mr. Pouliot, who is called clerk of works. I have no knowledge of his professional qualifications, and at this moment I really could not answer my hon. friend as to why the other gentleman was employed. I know, as a fact, that the other gentleman was employed in his capacity of architect, and that he received his pay by way of commission.


Lucien Cannon: In the s^rne item to wh!ch I have referred there is a special amount paid to Mr. Ouellet, reading:
One and one-half per cent, for verifying C. P. R. accounts, $83.42.
I do not see why the Government should pay Mr. Ouellet for verifying Canadian Pacific Railway accounts.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: 
Lucien Cannon: Does the minister not
think those accounts should be verified by the accountant of the department?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: They must be verified by the accountant. The only question is one of principle of policy, whether it is the proper way to pay the man who performs the services. I am Tather of the opinion that, in future, those service? will be performed by the permanent officials of the department. That is my judgment. There may arise cases when we shall have to vary ,from that policy, hut, as a matter of policy, I think it is best to encourage the men in the employ of the department, cast the responsibility upon them, let them realize that the department is going to hold them responsible for the proper performance of that work, and I believe we shall 5 p.m. get more loyal service and better results all around. That is only a question of policy. I want my hon. friends to'realize that I am not here to condemn matters of policy of my predecessor. I am willing to take all reasonable responsibility, hut there is not much use in asking me why things were done. I am only too happy to give any information which I can, and I shall not have very much difficulty in telling my hon. friends what my policy will be in the future.
Mr. CAiNNON:	I am not asking these
questions in order to criticise the minister, (because I know he is not responsible for what may have happened last year, as he was not then, at the head of the department. I understand, however, that now while the Estimates are on, is about the only occasion given to members of this House to get certain information that it might be interesting- for them to know. *That is why I am putting these questions.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I hope my hon. friend
will not, for a moment, think I am finding fault with his method of obtaining information. Go ahead. We shall give the (committee all the information we possibly *can. I hoipe nobody will have the idea that I am objecting to any set of questions or the obtaining of any information desired.


Lucien Cannon: In this item for Mir. J. P. Ouellet, I see he has received $258.95 for supervision o*f sundry work; plans, etc., for $34,500 contract, $1,207.50. What was that contract and to whom was it given? Where was the work done?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am not in a position [DOT]to give the information now, but if the hon. member will write me a letter, giving the page and the account in such a way that there will be no question about its identity, we shall at once send him back a letter giving him all the information, and we are willing to do the same in regard to every subject in the Auditor General's /Report, relating to the Department of Public Works.


Lucien Cannon: I have no objection to
corresponding with the minister, but on the other hand when answers are given in the House they are published in Hansard and the information is not of a private but of a public character. It is much better for the public that the answer should be given in the House if the minister is in a position to give it. The deputy minister is here. Perhaps he can enlighten the minister on the subject.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I regret I am not able [DOT]to answeT the question. I may say to my [DOT]hon. friend however, that any letter I write to him will be public, and he is in a position to put it in the newspapers or make any use of it he desires.


Lucien Cannon: To close up this incident, I wish to tell the .minister I drew his attention to this item in the Auditor General's Report only because it struck me as *being most extraordinary that the department should pay a large sum to an architect *when there is already in the department [DOT]a staff of architects paid by the country *to do the work. I do not say that Mr. Ouellet was employed because he happened to be a political friend: of the late Government. I know the gentleman who was Minister of Public Works last year, would not be induced to employ this gentleman's services on that account, but nevertheless it strikes me as rather strange that such a large amount should he given to Mr. Ouellet when the department did not need his services at all.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I happen to know the
situation in Quebec. The resident engineer appointed by the Department of Public Works is Mr. Decarie, a man of exceptional ability, very conscientious, and very hard working-an absolutely safe man, with a staff of well trained officers under him. With such a man as that in the department, I do not think that the minister is justified in paying large sums of money to outsiders such as have been mentioned by >my hon. friend from Dorchester. Mr. Decarie, because he was an honest, painstaking and capable engineer, has been completely ignored, and the result has been that the reconstruction of the Quebec post office, a work of only reasonably large dimensions, which was commenced in 1911 or 1912, has not yet been completed. Why? Because the department has simply let ntat-ters drift, and every ward politician in the city of Quebec has had his finger in the pie. I do not know how many hundreds of thousands of dollars have been sunk in that post office, and it is not yet completed. If Mr. Decarie had been put in charge of the work it would have been completed long ago and at much less expense.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: My attention was drawn to this matter some months ago, when I made an investigation. I find that the contract is for a lump sum, and therefore the exceedingly long time during which repairs have been going on does not perhaps mean so much to the department as one might think. I thank my hon. friend for the information he has given me. I have met the gentleman he has referred to, and have every confidence in his ability. I thought that this particular contract was finished; but if it has not been it will travel pretty fast in the next two or three months.


Rodolphe Lemieux: It is a scandal to think that a building not half the size of this Museum, and which has been under way for six or seven years, should not have been completed before this. If Mr. Decarie had been in charge of the reconstruction it would have been completed four years ago. The minister, if he will investigate, will find that there is a regular mine of scandals connected with that building.


Mr. EDWARDS:: Has the city of Quebec postal accommodation at the present time?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Oh yes.


William Cameron Edwards: Where, then, is the
urgency for completing the work?


Rodolphe Lemieux: The *'building is being reconstructed; it is not a new work. The reconstruction was Ibegun in 1911 or 1912.


William Cameron Edwards: I do not see that that is any great crime, just because it happens to be in the city of Quebec. Other places are suffering the same inconvenience.


Rodolphe Lemieux: My hon. friend misses the point.


William Cameron Edwards: My hon. friend is complaining because a certain work in Quebec has not been completed; it is a shame and a scandal, and so on. In reply to that part of this remarks, I say there are lots of places in this country where buildings have been left in an unfinished state owing to the necessity for avoiding all unnecessary expenditure. while the war is on. But if any work is dropped east of the Ottawa river, a howl is raised about it at once. If there is any part of Canada where buildings should be completed, it is in the section west of the Ottawa river.


Rodolphe Lemieux: My hon. Mend missed my point altogether. The contract is for a lump sum, and was given six or seven years ago. The money has to be spent anyway. My point was that if the reconstruction had been under the supervision of the resident engineer the building would have been ready long ago. It is a small building, relatively speaking, but large for the city of Quebec. I was asking why we should pay architects to superintend the work when it is not being completed? I was not making any such complaint as my hon. friend suggests.


William Cameron Edwards: My hon. friend has mentioned this Museum building that we are meeting in. If the building they are putting up in Quebec is going to be like this one it would be better if they took ten or fifteen years more to complete it. This building was constructed during the time my hon. friend was a minister of the Crown. By some, the building is regarded as absolutely unsafe. Only a short time ago they had to take part of it down to prevent the whole thing from coming down. I presume the plans for this building bad the hon. gentleman's approval when he was a member of the Government. Therefore, when he recommends an architect as able to carry out a work to perfection in a very short time, I take his recommendation with a very large dose of salt, in view of what his architects have done. Here is a building with cracks in it; it is going to pieces, sliding down the hill into the canal or

somewhere else. This building was put up at a time when the hon. gentleman had a say in the erection of public buildings.


Rodolphe Lemieux: This Museum building was erected long before I. became a member of the Government. My hon. friend knows the reasons for the cracks in it.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The contract for the reconstruction of the post office in Quebec was for the lump sum of $385,000, and was given on the 23rd of March, 1913. Extra work was authorized to the amount of $21,501, and there is extra work now under adjustment amounting to $3,000. So the total probable cost is $409,50l. Up to the 14th of March last the contractor had been paid $400,032, leaving a balance required to fill the contract of $9,468. It is possible that other small portions of the work will have to be finished up. A wall of some kind is being removed by the department, and it is suggested that this work should be done by the contractor; that "will require adjustment. In order to be sure that this matter will be cleaned up without delay, we are asking for $15,000.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: Was a claim sent in to the department by the contractor on account of the loss occasioned to him by the increased cost of labour and material?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: A claim was sent in either by the contractor or by his solicitor. It was not paid. Hon. gentlemen can rest assured that we will treat this matter purely as a business proposition.


Lucien Cannon: Who looks after the valuation of land expropriated by the Department of Public Works? [DOT]


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: An estimate of the value is made by some one in the locality considered as an expert and, if it can he arranged; an agreement is made with the owner for the taking over of the land on a reasonable basis. If such an agreement cannot be made, the matter goes to the Exchequer Court.


Lucien Cannon: I see in the Auditor General's Report that a gentleman named Amyot received the sum of $1,000 in full and final settlement of all claims in connection with the expropriation of a land site. Can the minister give me the particulars of this $1,000 payment?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This man was the owner of part of a site, and a settlement was made with him. That is all the information I have, but I will furnish all the facts

connected with the matter if the hon. gentleman so desires.
Grosse Isle Quarantine	Station-Boiler
houses, new Boilers, etc., $30,000.


Mr. DECHENE:: Is this for a new boiler house, or for repairs to the old one?
Mr. tCARVELL: I understand that this is for additional boilers. Quarantine stations are under the control of the Department of Agriculture; the Public Works Department erect the buildings for them. During the last session a lengthy discussion took place in the House with regard to the voting of $115,000 or $120,000 for the erection of new buildings at Grosse Isle. The De>
partment of Agriculture informs me that it is absolutely necesary that the quarantine station there be completed before the troops begin to return in large numbers. During seven months of the year the troops will have to come by the St. Lawrence, and necessary quarantine accommodation will have to be provided. I threw all the obstacles. I could in the way of the erection of this building, but the officials of the Agricultural Department persisted in saying that the expenditure is absolutely necessary, and, therefore, I cannot refuse it. if we go on with the new buildings it may not be necessary to instal this new plant, but if we do not the additional amount for heating plant will have to be spent. The work will be done by tender and contract. As presently advised, I think it will be necessary to proceed with this work on a large scale during the coming summer. Nearly four years ago tenders were called for part of this work; they amounted to about $150,000. In all probability we will not have to construct the whole work as has been proposed, but there will at least have to be the main administration, building and two units in the place of wards. It has not been definitely decided to do so, but in all probability we shall proceed with the work in the near future.


Mr.   DEOHENE@: I understand that the foundation of the new quarantine station has already been laid and part of the work done.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes.
Mr. DEC'HENE: Is it known that the pillars were not amply protected and that, through the influence probably of water or frost, some of them are tipping over?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is news to me. I have asked my deputy about it, and he says that it is news to him also. We will
have inquiry made into the matter at once, and if my hon. friend's information is cor-[DOT] rect, we shall see who is responsible.


Joseph Bruno Aimé Miville Déchêne: One of the men who is in charge of the foundation work came to my office last winter and told me that he had observed that some of the pillars were somewhat tipped over. He suggested that they might have to be rebuilt, and asked me, when I should go to Ottawa, to. point out that this deficiency was not the fault of the contractor; that the pillars were not sufficiently protected.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I do not understand that. If the pillars were properly constructed frost would not interfere with them. It would be a reflection on any man if he erected buildings or works of any kind under these conditions. I can assure my hon. friend that we will have this matter investigated and find out what the facts are.


Joseph Bruno Aimé Miville Déchêne: There was a complete foundation in some places and in some other places there were just pillars set in the ground. Of course they had to make a deep hole to reach a solid rock foundation. The hole was filled with ice and water during the winter and probably that caused the trouble with the pillars.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I find from the notes placed before me that tenders were called for these foundations early in the autumn of 1913 and that a contract was let on the 21st November, 1913, to J. B. Gallibois or Montmagny for $20,753. The total amount that was finally paid to the contractors on the 3rd August, 1915, was $22,541. There was a payment of $20,759 on the contract, plus $2,788, allowed for extra piling. These are all the facts I have. I am very much interested in what the Iron, gentleman tells me and I shall . certainly have the matter investigated.


Joseph Bruno Aimé Miville Déchêne: Will the new boiler house and boilers be connected with the new hospital or are they to supply power to the old building?	.
Mr. 'CARVELL: I think I was in error in the statement I made a few moments ago. The proposed boilers 'are for the disinfecting plant and for necessary purposes at the wharf. They are at the old building and I think they will have nothing to do with the new hospital referred to in the other item.


Mr.   DEOHENE@: I see an item for " improvements and repairs to buildings and fittings, furniture." Are these fittings and

furniture supplied by contract or by day's work under direction of the commanding officer?	.
/Mr. CARVELL: I can only say again that if any of these works are sucfh that we can properly call for tenders, tenders will be called. You can quite readily conceive that there may be a condition of affairs, such a9 tearing down and rebuilding, under which it would not be possible to properly specify the work. It is pretty hard to call for tenders for that kind of work but every portion of this work which is new, or which is well defined, or for which a proper specification can be intelligently prepared, will be done by tender and contract. The remainder will be done by the officials of the Public Works Department who are responsible in that part of the province of Quebec.


Joseph Bruno Aimé Miville Déchêne: I do not ask this question with the idea of making trouble. I understand that during the last few years there was a contractor in charge of work in connection with the quarantine station there. He was supposed to look after the furniture and fittings in the Government buildings. Last year, I understand, some work was done by the labourers under the supervision of the commanding officer. I *would like to know why there was a change and if any money was saved as a result of it.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That portion of the province of Quebec is under the control of a gentleman named Tremblay who lives at Montmagny -and, while I am not acquainted with the details of what took place last year, I will say that any work done by the Public Works Department, which requires the employment of temporary labourers* will be done under the officials of the Public Works Department, no matter what may have been done in the past, and we will hold them responsible for seeing that it is done properly. When it comes to a question of the buying of furniture that probably will be done by the War Purchasing Commission under the new arrangement.
I can assure my hon. friend that .it will be done properly no matter by whom.


Joseph Bruno Aimé Miville Déchêne: The work which is now done under the supervision of the commanding officer was formerly done under the supervision of a civil engineer, Mr. Tremblay. Generally, Mr. Tremblay took charge and saw that the contractor was doing his business properly but I understand that last year Mr. Tremblay had practically nothing to do with it and that

the commanding officer just ran it as he pleased.
' Mr. '.CARVELL:	I have never heard of
this before. A system has grown up during a great many years past by which different departments have been constructing public buildings .and looking after them. It may have been due to this system that the (commanding officer took charge of the work at the quarantine station. I am not aware of the details but I can assure my hen. friend that .the public works of this country in the future are going to .be constructed by the Public Works Department and that the officials, and nobody else, are going to be held responsible for the due execution of these works.


Joseph Bruno Aimé Miville Déchêne: I have heard that it
was the intention of the Government to build a new wharf to accommodate the new building that is to be located on the lower part of the island. There are two wharves, one at the upper end of the island and one at the lower end next the new building. Is it the intention of the Government to enlarge this wharf or to leave it as it is now. The Government steamers do not stop at the lower wharf but .always go to the upper wharf.
Mr. 'CARVELL: There is no appropriation in the Estimates this year for any enlargement of that wharf. The matter was brought to my attention during the last three or four months and the information I have received is that eventually the wharf will have to be enlarged but I do not think I can hold out much hope to my hon. friend that the work will be undertaken during the coming year. We may be compelled to embark on the construction of the immigration building proper as a matter o* necessity. But I think the wharf will have to get .along as it is at present.
Montreal General Post Office-remodelling old building, $20,000'.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The General Post
Office was enlarged some years ago. The old building of the Montreal Gazette was purchased and the post office was extended. Every one who has to go into the general post office realizes that it is a very small building for the business that is carried on there.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: You mean simply for the employees there, do you not?


Rodolphe Lemieux: There are any number of employees there.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is what I thought.


Rodolphe Lemieux: There were seven hundred employees in 1911, or thereabouts, and in less than three years the number was duplicated. I think there are from fourteen to sixteen hundred employees there at present.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It is a very important office I know.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The business has not increased correspondingly. I understand that for the repairing of mail bags', sacks, boxes, and so forth, the department, some years ago, rented another building opposite, oh Craig street. Has the lease of that building expired, or is the Government going to continue it?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That raises a question that has given me a great deal of thought during the last three or four months. To answer my hon. friend's question categorically, the lease to which he refers is still running, and I cannot tell him exactly when it will expire. However, this raises the same question with respect to the city of Montreal that we were discussing last evening in connection with the city of Ottawa. * The public services in Montreal are scattered round in quite a number of places, but with the difference that there are not nearly the same number of employees in that city as there are in Ottawa. But it has been impressed upon my mind very strongly that just as soon as the nnances of the country will admit of it, the Government should either erect or purchase a building in some central locality in the city of Montreal in which to house all its employees. I have examined the rentals that Sre being paid for offices, and I find that whenever you send out a Government official for the purpose of obtaining quarters for himself he first makes for St. James street; he thinks he should be provided with bank premises right in the middle of that thoroughfare. When you argue with the official for a while he states: Well, I will be satisfied if I can have one of the best corners on St. Catherine street. The result is that we are usually paying for the best corners, and paying prices that are not necessary and not justifiable. Under present conditions, where these offices are separated and spread all over the city, it is a pretty hard matter to control them. I do not care who the Minister of Public Works may be, when he is compelled to hunt around for offices he is very often forced to take that which he would rather not have. For that reason I believe that in the city of Montreal we
require a centrally located and Dominion-owned building for the housing of all the officials probably to a greater extent than in any other part of Canada. I believe that would be a good policy to adopt in all the big centres. The matter has been forced particularly upon our attention lately, by reason of the necessity for making provision for the collection of the income tax. Offices have been opened up in many of the large business centres of Canada, and, of course, the Government officers, as I said before, in Montreal want to get on St. James Street, and in Winnipeg they want to get-


Rodolphe Lemieux: On Main Street.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Or a street equally as prominent, and none of them want to go upstairs. They say, "We must have bank premises on the best business corners there are in the city," which is only human nature. I tell them they do not require such expensive buildings as these, and I am having my way to some extent. I also tell them that wherever there is a vacant room m a public building there is where they ought to go. They are filling up these rooms now, and there will not be much vacant space left hereafter in the public buildings in those cities where these officials are located. However, it only emphasizes the point I am making: The moment the Government starts out to rent space in any city or town, it is going to pay a much higher figure, proportionately to what the business community pay for similar accommodation, than it ought to, and, therefore, in my judgment, the Government should own its own building, not in small places, but in large centres like Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg, and possibly the Pacific Coast. The business in these cities is of sufficient importance to justify the Government in having its own accommodation. Under present conditions that is impossible, and all that is left for us is to go on and do the best we can, discontinuing some of these rented premises when the leases expire, if possible, and making the best business arrangement we can.
Mr. DuTREMBLAY: I want to draw the minister's attention to the needs of Outre-mont, with a population of about fifteen thousand persons, and distant,about three -miles from the general, post office in Montreal. Outremont has no post office, whereas [Maisonneuve, Westmount, and other conn [DOT]munities in the environment of Montreal, -are well provided for in that respect. It is very inconvenient for the people of Outre-


mont not to have proper postal facilities, and I hope the Minister of Public Works will be in a position at an early date to supply what is lacking in this respect. If the finances of the country do not permit it this year, I hope that next year the minister will be able to appropriate a reasonable amount to erect a good postoffice, because I can assure him that one is absolutely necessary.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It would give me the
veTy greatest pleasure if I could erect public buildings for everybody, that is if they are necessary, .and I have no doubt that a postal .station for Outremont comes within that category. I think I have had some correspondence with a number of people about the provision of a station at Outremont. Nothing has been done and I am afraid that nothing can be done while conditions continue as at present. Just as soon as the financial affairs of Canada will warrant, it will give ns great pleasure to do everything that ought to be done in order to meet the necessities of the public.


Mr. JACOBS:: Perhaps it is the fault
of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Du Tremblay) that the condition of which he complains exists, because had he not defeated the exdlostmaster General (Mr. Blondin) provision would have been' made for a post office in Outremont. We wreTe discussing a moment or two ago the question of the Government' obtaining land in the city of Montreal for the purpose of building. * I understand that the (Government has a 'large block of land on McGill street, which wias purchased several years ago from the Grey Nuns, and a portion of which was used for the erection of (an examining warehouse for the 'Customs' Department. The Government also went to the expense of piling the vacant land for further building when required. It seems to me that is an ideal place for a public building, jand there ought to be no reason why the Government should cast about looking for other property when they have this land in their possession.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It is a fact that the
Government owns' a very desirable .site on the location referred to by my hon. friend, one 'portion of which is occupied, 1 think, by ian examining warehouse.
Mr. L'EMIIETJX: One portion is occupied by the new examining warehouse, and the other is intended for a customs house.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The other part is intended for a customs house, I think. The

matter has been discussed as to whether that would not he a proper site on which to erect a large offiice building. We do not want any work of art, but simply a good, plain, fireproof office 'building, and one large enough to house all the public officials of the Federal Government in the city of Montreal.


Samuel William Jacobs: The Government might he able to explain why it was that they went to the expense of piling that immense piece of vacant land {or a building to be erected at some future time unknown to even the Government. There was an immense expense incurred in the piling of that ground at the same time when the piling was done for the building which was erected oil part of that lot.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: "My information is that the work of constructing the foundation of the examining warehouse was done by the Foundation Company, a well-known contracting firm, and it was thought advisable at the same time to prepare a foundation on the adjoining lot so that whenever it was decided to go on with any extension that part of the work would be- completed. This lot requires piling to ensure a suitable foundation and we have it.


Samuel William Jacobs: Does the minister know
that the interest on the money cost of piling this ground has been running on for years, and the Government does not, even now, know if they are going to put up any building on it. It does seem to me that it is very poor business to pile ground for some future occasion which may never arise.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Well, my hon. friend
knows that the war has upset many of our calculations, and I have no doubt that wnen that work was* done it was not anticipated that the conditions would be as they are at the present time. I know nothing about it, except the information which I have given my hon, friend. It is true we are paying interest, but if we had put up an expensive building we would be paying still more interest. However, that is just one of the incidents and exigencies of the war.


Rodolphe Lemieux: As a matter of fact, the piling was started during the war, 'but not when my hon. friend was head of the department. Perhaps that explains the whole thing.


Samuel William Jacobs: Perhaps the minister can tell us how much the piling on the unused

portion of the ground cost. I suppose the information is available?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Oh, yes, but I have not got it here, as there is no item in the estimates for that work.
Quebec Post Office-Enlargement and alterations, $15,000.
Mr. 'CANNON: The minister told us that a contract had been awarded for a given amount. Is this in addition to the contract given?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It is to close up the existing contract.
Three Rivers-New Public Building, $20,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Will this item be cut out?


Jacques Bureau: Might I ask a question?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have some doubts about the expediency of this item.


Jacques Bureau: So have I. That is why I rose. I would like to inquire if all Dominion officers will be under that roof when that building is completed?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I do not know how many officers we have in Three Rivers. But I can assure the hon. gentleman that there will not be any vacant space in it, and if there are not more officers in Three Rivers than will fill up this building then all the public officers in Three Rivers will be in the public building.


Jacques Bureau: The reason I inquire is this: the plans for this building were prepared before 1911; tenders were called for after 1911, when there was a change of Government. The' lowest tenderer at that time for the original plan, which was large enough to accommodate all the Dominion officers in Three Rivers, was a firm of Liberals.	.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: What were their names?


Jacques Bureau: I think Collins, Giroux and Baptist.
Mr. LEMIEU-X: Was it John Collins?


Jacques Bureau: I think so, but not the one the hon. gentleman uses.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Perhaps that is the reason they did not get the contract.


Jacques Bureau: Am I right in my statement as to the names of the original tenderers?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, they were not the lowest tenderers. Verrette, McLeod and Ferron were the lowest.


Jacques Bureau: That is the second tender. When they saw that the gentlemen I mentioned were the lowest tenderers, the plans were changed, and another tender was called for, and Mr. Verrette, who was a Tory friend Of the Government, got the contract. He got it quite low, I understand. Mr. Verrette could not finish his contract. I would like to know how that matter was settled. The contract is now being finished by Mr. Bourque.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Is he from Hull?


Jacques Bureau: Yes.


Mr. DEVLIN:: He is a very good contractor.	.


Jacques Bureau: I have no doubt that he is, judging by other work he has done in Three Rivers. He built the drill shed there. I do not want the information now, as the matter I refer to happened before my hon. friend took office. I would like to know how the Verrette company got out of the contract. I do not state this as a fact, but I understand they had a deposit with the Government as security for the contract, and that the progress estimates on this contract were largely exaggerated, and that even by forfeiting their deposit they were still overpaid for the contract when not one-quarter was completed. The information I want is, how was the Verrette contract settled? As to the Bourque contract, I have no doubt as to its being all right, and as to the work it is being properly done.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: On February 19, 1917, an Order in Council was passed authorizing the closing of the contract with Verrette, McLeod and Ferron, who asked to be relieved of it, stating that they were not able to finish the work at the price agreed upon, namely, $163,495, due to the increased cost of material since the outbreak of the war.


Jacques Bureau: Has the minister any information about the suspension of the work from 1913 to 1917?
Mr. 'CARVELL: I do not find any in the note I have before me. The contractors also claim that, owing to a delay caused by a protest of the city of Three Rivers re an encroachment by the contractors on land owned by the city and used in connection with the construction of the building, they were unable to close * with the sub-contractors for materials, and when they were ordered to resume wo^k, war had been, declared and prices had greatly increased. The final settlement was

as follows: Value of work done by contractors, $96,462.05; value of extra work done by contractors, $13,501; total amount paid to contractors, $109,963.05. New tenders were called for the completion of the work.


Jacques Bureau: What was the value of the work done?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: 


Jacques Bureau: How rftuch will you pay the new contractor?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The new contractor gets $87,500 for completing the work. There seems to be something else required besides that. The fittings would account for the extra amount. The expenditure to March 31, 1917, is $126,11,0. The probable expenditure for 1917-18 is $100,000. I do not know how much of that was expended, but, I presume, the most of it, because I see the revote is not very large.


Jacques Bureau: The building is going on very nicely now.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The vote asked for now is $20,000. That will make a total estimated expenditure of $246,110, or practically 'a quarter of a million dollars. We confidently hope this amount will be quite sufficient to finish the building. If the building be sufficiently large to accommodate all the public services in that city, they will certainly be housed in that building.


Jacques Bureau: The building, as first planned, would have been amply large to accommodate all Dominion officials in Three Rivers for the present, and also to have an examining warehouse and a Customs house with all the necessary additions. Every office was provided for. Each department was asked how much space it would require, and that information was given. The first tender amounted, I think, to $256,000.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: 


Jacques Bureau: I mean the first tender of all, not the Verrette tender. Tenders were called for twice. The first tender was cancelled because some Liberals were members of the firm that tendered lowest. Then the plan was cut down; the size of the building was reduced. You will now have to rent outside buildings to accommodate your officials, because in the present building, there is hot enough room. I think a couple of the departments will be left out. When you accommodate the Inland Revenue Department, the Customs Department, the Post Office and the Public Works Department, you will have no room left for the personnel of the St. Maurice works,
TMr. Carvell.]
or for your engineers, and you will have to rent buildings. The original price was no more than it is going to cost for this smaller building. The minister tells me that the department has settled with Verrette, and I see the Order in Council recites that they could not go on because of a protest from the city council of Three Rivers. The firm had a shack which they used as an office. Part of that shack was on part of the property belonging to the city of Three Rivers. The shack was about 100 feet from the building. It had nothing to do with the building. The firm were driving horses and putting machinery all around. There was no excuse for doing so. They took the contract knowing, they could not carry it out. They took it relying on being able to get extras. They got at loggerheads with the present Postmaster General (Mr. Blondin), who is in Europe, and the extras were not recorn-' mended, and they stopped work. This work was stopped for three years without any reason or justification. During those three years they had carved in stone on the side of the building " Revenue de l'lnterieur," spelling " Revenu " with an " e " at the end of it. Then they took out the stone with the letter " e " on it, and I suppose they faced it around. I am told it cost the department $396 for a man to get up on a ladder, take the stone out and1 put it in again. They put a hitching post on the corner for the contractor's horse. I am mentioning these things, because, if the department wishes to throw away a quarter of a million dollars, we have a right to get a building worth that amount. The first plan that was prepared and for which tenders were called and submitted, and a com tract practically- let except for the fact that there were Liberals in the firm, was for a building worth $250,000, and it would have , been one of the finest buildings in the province. I do not want to bother my hon. friend with those details. I know he is not responsible. I would, however, like him to ' get them from the department, and I ask for them publicly, because I know there has been, in the building of that post office at Three Rivers, " red-handed " robbery on the part of Tory firms in that city and their supporters in the Government.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I shall give my hon. friend every bit of information in regard to the matter there is in the Public Works Department.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.

After Recess.
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Three Rivers-'New public building1, $20,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I wish to point out that the official name of Three Rivers is Trois Rivieres.


Jacques Bureau: The name has been * changed on account of there being a Three Rivers in Michigan.
Kingston R. ML C. 

 Enlargement of educational block, $150,0'00.


Mr. MURPHY:: Has that work been started?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No. I have had no opportunity of discussing the matter with those who are particularly interested, and I need more information than I have at present to justify me in starting this work. I am not saying that it will not be started, hut very strong reasons will have to be given, for this amount of work on the Royal Military College at the present time. The college has done a splendid work in the past, and I hope it will continue to do good work in the future, but what it will do in the next three or four years will not be of very much value in the winning of the present war. I will ask the House to vote this item, on the assurance that before spending anything we will seriously consider whether it is absolutely necessary at this time.
Ottawa departmental buildings-renewing metal covering on Mackenzie wing of West Block, $2,500.


Charles Murphy: Why is this item carried over from year to year?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It was tco late in the season to have anything done last year, and we are therefore asking for a revote this year. The work is necessary, and I think will be done this year.
Ottawa Government Printing Bureau-freight-elevators, $9,500.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: These are being installed at the present time under contract . with Otis-Fensom.


Charles Murphy: In what part of the
building?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I understand in practically the same location as the old elevators. The price struck me as being pretty high when the contract was signed, hut we have found in calling for tenders for elevators in the new Parliament building that elevators are an expensive item, and we cannot get them any cheaper.


Charles Murphy: In view of the congestion at the Bureau I was wondering whether a shaft was going to be erected outside the building for these elevators-.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I think not.
Toronto-Postal station "A," $300,000.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The Public Works Department is bearing a certain percentage of the cost of the new station building on Front street, Toronto, part of which will be used by the post office. This is our snare of the cost this year.
Edmonton-Government's share of cost of permanent pavement on Jasper Avenue crossing Government property occupied by Alberta Penitentiary, including interest thereon at 5 per cent., $21,200.


Charles Murphy: Will the minister explain this item, and, say why interest is included?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It seems that a pavement 80 feet wide and practically a mile in length was constructed in front of the penitentiary property on Jasper avenue m 1914. The total cost of the whole frontage was $34,919. The share assumed by the city was $9,103, the Government's share being $25,815. There is another item of 3,766 feet of which the Government's share is $18,008, the interest on which, since January 1, 1915, amounts to about $3,000, the total being $21,159, and we are asking for $21,000. An arrangement was made under which we should pay a certain proportion of the cost of paving the street, and this is to close the transaction.


Charles Murphy: Why was the money
not paid before in order to save interest?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I think the work was
done .by the city, and- perhaps they were .so wealthy in Edmonton, that they did not require the money ana only lately realized the fact that they were entitled to it. However, if we. had paid the money three years ago we should have been out the interest, so it is the same thing.
Victoria-Old po-st office (building-to pay taxes due the city for the year 1917, $1,578.47.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: What taxes are these?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This is an. old building now leased by the Government to private individuals. When the Government owns property which it leases to other parties, I understand it pays- the taxes. Personally I never could see why the Government should not pay taxes on all property which it owns throughout the Dominion. I am not laying that down as the policy of

the Government; I am only stating my private .views on the subject.


Mr. CAHILL:: What is the revenue from this property?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have not that information, but I will get it for my hon. friend. This item has been voted yearly since 1900.
Yukon Territory-Dawson post office-vault, $10,000


Arthur Bliss Copp: Is that work to be done this year?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The vote was taken last year, but the money was not expended. In Dawson difficulty is experienced in obtaining proper foundations for such works as vaults. The population of Dawson is decreasing, and a Bill has been, or is to be, introduced by the Minister of the Interior providing for the reconstruction and rearrangement of governmental affairs in the Yukon Territory. I hope that there will be a very great reduction in the expenditure there. I am not in a position, therefore, to say positively whether or not this work will go on, but I am morally certain that it will not.
Ottawa (public buildings-Dominion Observatory and Geodetic Survey building-[DOT] beating, including salaries of engineers, firemen and watdhmcn, $280,(KM).


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: In all probability this item will not meet the expenditure. I wish to place myself on record in this respect, because the cost of fuel is advancing rapidly. It may be necessary to put an item in the Supplementary Estimates under this head. We have purchased 10,000 cords of wood and intend to see whether we can heat these buildings, at least to some extent, with wood during the coming winter. The wood is really costing more than coal, having regard to its heating value.


Mr. TOBIN:: How much per cord?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It is $10, or $11 for hardwood. That is less than the price in many parts of Canada.
Ottawa public buildings-Repairs, furniture, grounds, snow and' street maintenance, etc., $ 45 0v0 O'O'.
Mr. LEM'IEUX: That is a very large item.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It is a large item, but 1 do not know of any way to reduce it. If my hon. friend can tell me some way of cutting it down I will be very glad indeed to take his suggestion.


Mr. CHISHOLM:: Less furniture and
cheaper furniture.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Unless you can find any cheaper furniture than we have around this room, or than you have in the ordinary rooms occupied by members, you cannot find any fault on account of extravagance there. This is a sample of the furniture that is being purchased by the department all over the city. To be serious about it, the difficulty is that the Civil Service has increased very materially since the beginning of the war and they all require furniture, rugs and things of that kind to make their offices habitable. This item also includes repairs. I suppose the ordinary man is very much like the ordinary woman. When a man rents a house the first thing his wife wants is to have new paper oil the walls, to have the house painted and to have everything rearranged. It is about the same thing in the departments. When they get into an office building they want the old partitions torn down, new partitions set np and painted and the walls kalsomined. I do not know of any way of stopping it. I am putting on the brakes as best I can, but I do not see much hope' of reducing the item to any great extent.


Mr. L. A. LAPOINTE:: Is this sum expended just in Ottawa or all over Canada?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Just in Ottawa.


Louis Audet Lapointe: You are maintaining the streets here?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, just public buildings.


Louis Audet Lapointe: The item says "street maintenance, etc." If I could have the city of Montreal made the capital we would have lots of money expended in our city for removing snow and doing all those other things.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There is a large portion of Wellington street, extending from the Chateau as far as the old Perley Home, which has been built and is maintained, at the expense of the Government. This also includes certain expenditures in the parks, taking care of the walks around the different buildings, the driveways and things of that kind.


Rodolphe Lemieux: And the lawns?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, it covers the lawns too.

iMr. L. A. LAPOINTE:	I see that in
1917-18, $450,000 was voted and spent for this purpose. How is it that you again need $450,000 for the same service? If you put the street in good order and provided furniture for the departments, why should you need $450,000 again?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am very much afraid we require it.


Louis Audet Lapointe: You are repeating all the time.
'Mr. CARVELL: I would think that we were doing pretty well if we got through with that amount of money. I admit this is a large amount, hut when you consider there are some 10,000 civil servants in the .Government employ at Ottawa and that all of these people have to be housed, taken care of and provided with furniture, you will realize there is need for this amount. Then there is the annual maintenance of streets. That does not mean the building of new streets but the maintenance of streets. There is sweeping, cutting grass on lawns, shovelling snow and all those things which are an annual charge.
Mr. AROHAMlBAULT:	Are these civil
servants exempt from taxes in the city of Ottawa?
'Mr. CARVELL: Away back many years ago when the Improvement Commission was created, the Government granted very large sums of money and the commission started out upon a very extensive plan of improvement. In view of that the city of Ottawa agreed to forego taxes to a certain extent upon civil servants. I do not know exactly all the details but that is the general principle. I think the city also gives the Government free water and fire services. It is an arrangement that was made years ago between the municipal authorities of the city of Ottawa and the Government.
Telephone service, $6'2,0'00.


Alexander William Chisholm: What is this item for?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This is for telephone
service for the various departments, including this building. It is growing and, I think, growing faster than it ought to. I do not know whether there is any way of paring it down or not. I think there is, myself. I want to say, however, in justice to the Bell 'Telephone Company that the rates charged' are very reasonable when you compare them with the rates charged in other cities of Canada and the United States of practically the same population. I do not believe there is any city in which the rates generally are as low as they are in Ottawa. But I think there are more telephones in use than there ought to be, that there is a very extravagant system in the management of the phones. The difficulty is that we have neither one thing nor the other; we have neither private branch exchanges nor direct service connections. In my judgment, there should be private branch exchanges everywhere. Unless you have private branch exchanges everywhere 'then they should be nowhere. Perhaps this is regulated better, in so far as 'the telephone system is concerned, in the Militia Department than anywhere else. There they have over 200 telephones that are connected with a private branch exchange, but they also have 25 or 30 direct service phones. That means 25 or 30 main lines going into the different offices. Then, again, another difficulty about having private branch exchanges all over the service arises from the fact that, on account of being so cramped for space, 'there is practically no department^ of the Government that is housed in one building or in two buildings alongside of each other.	Suppose an
arrangement could be made by which the Militia Department could have all of the Moods building and all of the Canadian building. Probably then they could have a private branch exchange, and only have sufficient direct wires-probably 15 or 20- to take care of the traffic. In that way you would very materially reduce the cost of the telephone service. But when you have your Militia Department in probably eight or ten different buildings, it is almost impossible to bring the whole service in under a " PjB.X."	Then,
again, there are many departments that have made no attempt to 'have private branch exchanges at all. Probably there is no greater sinner in that respect than the Department of Public Works. We are pretty well segregated in the Western Block. We have offices in a number of other 'buildings, but still the great majority of our telephones are in one block. This is a case where a private branch exchange could be economically installed, and in going over the list I think I could cut out about one-half of the telephones and save money by such an installation. In going over the list of telephones it was a surprise to me to find the number of people in my department who are enjoying the luxury of a telephone, not only in their offices, but in their residences also. Of course the higher officials should have tele-



phones in their residences. I only had the opportunity dining the last hour of going over this item, and it certainly has set me thinking. Another sinner in the matter of telephones is the Interior Department. They have no private Ibranch exchange either. The Marine and Fisheries Department are also offenders. But probably the worst of all is the Inland Revenue Department. What on earth they want with all the telephones they have got in that department is a mystery to me, every one of them being a direct line from the Ottawa Central Exchange;-I am making a fairly open confession to-night. I have not had an earlier opportunity of going into the matter, hut I think I can effect some saving next year in the matter of telephone service in the departments in this city. I cannot go as far as common business judgment would tell me to go in the matter of private branch exchanges, in view of the Government buildings toeing spread so generally as they are over the city. On the other hand, there are a number of private branch exchanges installed which never should have been in-s stalled. For instance, there are some cases in which ten or fifteen phones have got a private branch exchange. Well, ten 'phones at $40 each would only toe $400, and it would cost $800 or $900 to run a private branch exchange of that dimension. The whole thing is, I am sorry to say, without any head, tail, or anything else; the idea seems to toe simply go on and spend money. It is my hope that I will toe able- to reduce this item very materially.
Fittings and general supplies and furniture,

Mr. DuTREMBiLAY: What are the fit-dings intended for?
iMr. CARVELL: This item, together with a number that follows, relates to the public buildings all over the Dominion. Demands arise, it may be for filing cases, or furniture of some kind, or it may be that a building has been partly destroyed by fire and the furniture has to be repaired.
Heating, $305,000.


Frank S. Cahill: How do you figure out
reducing the cost of heating when the cost of coal is going up so much?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: A great number of land offices have been closed in the West, and we will pursue a system of consolidation as far as we can. We have been giving this matter very careful consideration, and we have come to the conclusion that we can make a saving in this important item. I

am informed that last year's vote was abnormally high because the department had got behind, and a pretty large amount was provided in the supplementaries to pay off the bills. Now we have practically a clean sheet, and believe that w,e can keep the expenditure, down to the amount we are asking for.
Rents, $840,000.


Frank S. Cahill: Why have the rents increased so much? Does this amount provide for the whole of Canada, or is it limited to the city of Ottawa?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It includes buildings
throughout Canada.


Frank S. Cahill: There is an increase of
$65,000, what is the reason of that?
IMr. CARVELL:	Every body who rents
buildings in Canada will find that rents are going up. I do not know of any way of keeping them down. [DOT]
Salaries of caretakers, engineers, firemen, etc.. $600,000.


Alexander William Chisholm: Are the janitors supposed to live in these buildings as a general rule?
'Mr. CARVELL: It is intended that they should.


Alexander William Chisholm: They do not always
do so.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Does this vote apply to the
whole of 'Canada?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes.
Yukon Public Buildings-Rents, repairs, fuel, 1 light, water service and caretakers' salaries, $55,000.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am asking for that amount of money although I am very sure indeed that by the arrangements we have made we shall be able to reduce it. I think it will be possible -to close up entirely one building at Dawson, and bring the offices into what is called the Administration building. The cost of maintenance of buildings in Dawson City is abnormally high, they have to be heated pretty nearly all the time, and, of course, salaries are necessarily larger there than anywhere else in Canada.
Harbours and rivers-Nova 'Scotia-Barrington's Cove, Sydney Mines-partial reconstruction of wbarf, $1,106.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: In a terrific gale a certain block of this very useful structure was carried away. Does the minister think the vote is sufficient to finish the wharf?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This is an estimate that was given to me by Assistant District Engineer Cunningham on January 18 last. He gives the items, so many creosoted logs, so many poles, stone ballast, and so forth, and he puts the amount at $1,100.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The block to which 1 refer was driven ashore and possibly can be got back into place again al a very small cost. Wiill the repairs be done by day's work.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The amount is so small I do not believe it can be done otherwise. It merely consists of putting in here and there a few logs and poles, and things of that kind. I think it must be done by day work.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I would suggest that
the work be attended to as soon as possible, otherwise the usefulness of this wharf will be impaired.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It will be attended to. Just as soon as the money is voted it is the intention to proceed with all these works at the earliest possible moment.
Feltzen South - Repairs to breakwater,
$l,10i0.


Mr. DUFF:: 
Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I want to assure my hon. friend that the engineer was notified some four months ago to do exactly the things that he" is suggesting to-night.
Jaimesville - Completion of breakwater,
$2,000: .


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: This is an old friend
of the minister and myself.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I don't recognize it,
I am sure.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I would like to know
what he is doing about this breakwater. It was never any good, and never will be. It will have to be bom again before it will be of any service to the country. I have always said to the minister that any expenditure on it should be dropped under its present plan of construction, and that it should be rebuilt. We had some correspondence about this work last winter, and last summer I had it up in this House. I stated then that there was no use spending money on it until there was a different plan and a new beginning. Last winter, whatever remained in the water of that magnifieient structure was thrown over, and there is nothing at all standing .there now, as I am informed by the people in that community. I advise the minister to get proper plans prepared, and to go about the work in a businesslike way. Ft was always too small a structure for the purpose intended.- A proper plan was prepared in 1910 or 1911, and a vote put in the Estimates, as will appear in the records of the department. After the change of Government, the matter was dropped altogether. For political reasons1, it was found necessary, in 1914, I think, to erect something that would look like a breakwater, and a small vote was put in the Estimates, and a frail structure was planned by the advice of some politicians, and that thing was put in the water. But the Bras d'!Or lakes were not in sympathy with political connivings, they were unwilling to stand for any camouflage or fooling of that kind and the force of the tide smashed the structure. I ask the minister to go back to the proper plan of 1910. The work

is a necessity as a shelter for the good fishermen of that portion of 'Bras d'Or lake. I would advise the minister not to spend more money on the 1914 plan, which is absolutely no good and serves no useful purpose.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I do recognize this as an old friend, now that my hon. friend calls attention, to it, and have before me some discussion which took place in this House last September. I find from the records of the department that after the discussion a copy of Hansard was sent to Mr. [DOT]Bernas-coni, the engineer in charge of the work in that portion of Cape Breton Island, and the following is the answer which he sent:
With reference to the remarks made by Mr. McKenzie, M.P., on this subject, when discussing Public Works Estimates on the 4th September, 1917, I beg to say that the only portion of the breakwater which has gone to pieces is the unfinished section of the work, and with regard to the stability of the work, I fully believe that when property completed it will be sufficiently strong to stand the pressure to which it will be subjected, bearing in mind that this work is on the shore of the Bras d'Or Lake and not on the Atlantic shore.
I am very much obliged, indeed, to my hon. friend for calling attention to it. Of course, he will understand that we are compelled to take the advice of the engineer of the department on matters of this kind, unless we receive information which shows us that the engineer's judgment is wrong. I should be very glad, indeed, to receive any information which the hon. gentleman, or any other member, can give us, because I do not want to spend money, even if it be a small amount, unless it is properly expended. There has been a great deal of correspondence over this matter, and really there is nothing to do but to stand by the engineer until I am satisfied that he is not worthy of my support.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: If the minister will ask the engineer for another report he will find that what I have stated took place since that report was written. What he has reported to the minister to be all right has gone to smash since.
iMr. CARVELL: Since last September?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Yes, sometime in the early part of the winter.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is news to us.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: It was news to me when I heard it first, but it is not news to me now. I knew then I was right, notwithstanding the fact that the engineer is so devoted' to his baby. He made a proper

plan first in 1910, but he was forced to make a different plan, and the correspondence in the office will show that when Mr. Bernaseoni was asked to make a plan of a breakwater there that would cost $5,000, he said it could not be done; that for $5,000 you could not put anything there that would serve any useful purpose. Political pressure was brought to bear upon him, and he was forced to make a report for a structure there to Post $5,000. He was driven from his original .position. 'Now he is staying by his last report; he is trying to protect it. Since he wrote that report, I am informed by people in the community, the balance of this structure has gone to smash and I have no hesitation in putting myself against the engineer by stating that what remains of that structure cannot be of any service. I ask the minister to get an independent report on the structure if Mr. Bernaseoni says that is going to serve any useful purpose. It will not; it is no good. That is the opinion of everybody in the neighbourhood. The minister can readily understand that Mr. Bernaseoni, Laving been forced from his first position by political pressure of some kind, and having been obliged to report on.this, is now standing by it. I am not blaming him for doing so as long as he can. He does not wish to admit that he was forced to advise the building of a. structure that was of no use. Since he wrote that report a more violent gale has smashed the structure so that it is worse than it was before. That is the condition it is in to-day.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I can assure my hon. friend that independent advice will be taken upon the matter, and I shall see that no money is expended there until it is expended on a wharf that will be as permanent as a wharf of that kind can be made under those conditions.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: It is all very well to speak of this being on the shore of Bras d'Or lake. It is on the shore of the lake at a point where the lake is about 25 miles wide, and it is exposed to the full wind that you get over such an extent of water. That is no sheltered milhpond.
Mangiaree harbour-repairs and improvements, $10,900.


Alexander William Chisholm: What are these repairs and improvements?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This amount of $10,900 is asked for by District Engineer Bernaseoni for works described as follows:
(a) To complete the construction of a square timber block, 200 feet long and 10 feet wide, back of weakened portion of breakwater, com-

menced during 1917-18. The sum of $4,800 was voted for 1917-18, for the construction of this work, but owing to the lateness of the season when the expenditure was authorized, it is not expected that more than one-half of the work will be completed during the present fiscal year. The estimated cost to complete is $2,400.
(ib) The construction of a sand groin off beach on eastern side of harbour to arrest sand and prevent shoaling up of channel, work to consist of round timber cribwork, 5>50 feet in length and from ten to thirty feet in width. The estimated cost of the proposed work is $8,500.
The two items make a total of $10,900.


Alexander William Chisholm: Is it the intention of the minister to go on with this sand groin immediately?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes.


Alexander William Chisholm: Have the repairs on the breakwater been completed?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No; $4,800 was voted at the last session of Parliament, and only about one-half of that amount has been expended. The engineer estimates it will take the remaining $2,400 to finish the breakwater, and $8,500 for the sand groin.


Alexander William Chisholm: Every session for the last five years I have endeavoured to draw the attention of the Minister of Public Works to the expenditure of money in the following year. I made, of course, no impression upon him. He proceeded every year to spend the money down there in October. Anybody, knowing anything about the shores of Western Gape Breton during the latter part of September, October and November, knows it is impossible to get fifty cents worth of work out of a , dollar spent. The former Minister of Public Works knew this. I repeatedly told him, both privately and on the floor of the House. Last fall they began to spend this money in October. They proceeded with the work during the winter months. I think the greatest exhibition of incompetency I ever saw was the method pursued by the foremen on the work during last winter. Two or three foremen were there and half a dozen workmen.
They were doing the best they 9 p.m. could under the circumstances, because men would not go to work at that time of the year. They were working even in the severest weather, or at least attempting to work. When I left my home they were at work. Since then, I understand, they have ceased work. This method of procedure is absolutely absurd, and I cannot understand how the officials would permit it. I do not blame the minister because this is a small matter, and he cannot be expected to watch every corner and creek in the country. What I find fault with is that the officials of the department would allow this work to go on at this time of the year. I particularly blame district engineers, who are in charge there. There are engineers travelling back and forth. I made inquiry, and I was told that more work could be accomplished in the winter than in the summer. I am not an engineer, but I know something about the coast and about the work. I know that such a statement is absolute nonsense. I knew what would happen. The work is not finished, and it will not' be finished for a while, but the money was spent, and I fear that the work already constructed will be carried away by the storms if not properly ballasted. The ice is the greatest safeguard we have for this work just now. A great deal of the new work is not ballasted, and any one knowing anything at all about work of that kind along the coast knows the danger of the whole work being carried away. I know I am appealing to a minister who will listen to me, and a man of business instincts, and I know he will see that those expenditures are not made at a time of the year when it is impossible to do the work and get value for the money expended. I protest for the sixth time against this method of expending the appropriation at this time of the year. I have repeatedly informed the department this fall what was going on with respect to this work but surmise the minister was not informed, and that my complaints were not put before him.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This is the first time I have heard of this matter, and it is, of course, a surprise to me that work should be carried on under such conditions as my hon. friend has described. There again, I suppose we are compelled to rely upon the engineer until we are satisfied he is not competent. If evidences like this multiply sufficiently, drastic action may be required. I can, however, assure my hon. friend that this matter will be thoroughly [DOT] investigated, and whatever work is to be done there in the future will be done in the summer time if men can be obtained. I do not know to what extent delay may be caused on account of the labour question. If the work cannot be done in the summer time, it will not be done at all; work will not be done in the winter time. I can also promise my hon. friend that in the future no foremen will be engaged on that work without labourers under them.


Alexander William Chisholm: I would also ask the minister for his assurance that this fearful creature "patronage" will vanish from that part of the country.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I think my hon. friend had some evidence a few months ago that patronage had vanished so far as I was concerned.


Alexander William Chisholm: I reported to the minister what went on down there, and he sent instructions to the foreman, but the foreman did not act on those instructions as faithfully as I desired, and carried on his patronage as usual both in the matter of labour and in the distribution of lumber. Favouritism in the selection of labour was quite evident, although pretentions were made that an effort was being made to carry out the minister's request. This lumber might very well have been supplied by the people around, but instead of that the job was handed over to two merchants and they controlled the distribution. It might, perhaps, be said that these men were more capable of supplying the lumber on short notice, but that is not true. The people who could supply it on the shortest notice were the people in the immediate vicinity, but these men were not given a chance to fur-* nish the material. I regard this policy as unbusinesslike and partisan.


Sir HERBERT AMES:: I would like to ask the hon. member for Inverness if any improvement has been made in the little harbour of the little island immediately opposite Port Hood. I had occasion to visit there several years ago, and I saw a very beautiful natural little harbour in the island being gradually filled up at the entrance. I took some interest in the matter and endeavoured to ' get the channel opened, but did not succeed at the time.
Mr. 'CHISHOLM: I must thank my hon. friend for his assistance at that time; I had his very active co-operation. There was some dredging done there, but very little. It i|, a natural harbour, and of great service to the people around there. My hon, friend is not likely to forget it, because he had an unpleasant experience there and lost a very valuable piece of property. There has not been as much work done at this place as either I or my hon. friend would like, but I have a strong feeling that something will be done in the near future. I am promoting the matter. I am also endeavouring to get the work of finishing the closing of the northern entrance of Port Hood har-

hour and am assured that this work will be resumed just as soon as the finances of the country will permit.
Mosher's Bay 

 Repairs to breakwater, $1,300.


William Duff: I see by the Auditor General's Report for 1917 (page V-151) that $3,697.61 was expended on this work last year. I see that S. G. Rawd'ing rented his dory for ninety-four days at 25 cents a day; tools, June-October, 120 days; at $1.50; gasoline boat, 65 days, at [DOT] $5. I really cannot see why it was necessary to hire this dory and gasoline boat. I do not know of any work they could be used for. I might also say, after reading some letters I received from my constituents last week calling my attention to the fact that this gentleman figured in certain tenders for logs for a breakwater in the county of Lunenburg, that in my opinion the logs could be purchased at a much lower price if new tenders were called for.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: What is the tender price?


William Duff: I only have the information given in these letters.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I should like to have the information, and then I will certainly follow it up.


William Duff: I shall be very pleased to write to the minister about it.
Ross' Ferry-Repairs to wharf, $750.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: How will this work be done?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This is to renew the top of the outer block of the wharf built by the department in 1896-97. It consists of a small amount of round creosoted timber, native timber, etc. I imagine that the work will have to be done by day's labour. I doubt very much if it would be economical to have specifications drawn for a small work like that.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: There may be some difficulty in drawing specifications, but the wharf is in a very public place and it is easy of access. I have no objection to everybody getting a share of work of this kind in a country place like this, but I do fear [DOT]that unless specific instructions are given to Mr. Bernasconi he will fall into exactly the same line he always finds it convenient to fall into. He is a very good engineer, but we have heard of a good man in the old days who had the leprosy although he was a very excellent gentleman. Mr. Bernasconi has the political

leprosy; he cannot be anything else but a fearful Tory; that is what he is from start to finish, from Sunday morning until Saturday .might.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: We will try to make a benevolent Unionist out of him.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I have never seen a
benevolent Unionist yet, and until I do, I will not ask for the reconstruction of any one in that mould. I am not finding fault with Mr. Bernaseoni; he thinks that nobody else is right unless he is a Tory; that is- his religion; he was brought up that way. The minister might as' well give up saying that patronage is abolished if he leaves matters in the hands of Mr. Bernaseoni, because that gentleman will favour his old friends in the same old way. If Grits and Tories alike get this work, I do not object, but I am not satisfied, that the old system should be followed while Pharisaical professions with regard to the abolition of patronage are being made.
Mr. ,CARVELL:	Mr. Bernaseoni has received and will receive instructions which will convert him and make him a new man.
I have no doubt that I have the power of persuasion to cause him to be converted, and that henceforth no cause for complaint will be found.
Mr. JOHN C. DOUGLAS:	I agree with
the member for North Cape Breton (Mr. McKenzie) that there is evidence of patronage in Mr. Bernasconi's office. For instance, the foreman of the Jameeville wharf had been a Conservative, but a few months ago, when Mr. Bernaseoni had occasion to continue the work, he appointed a foreman who had acted in that capacity under the Liberals. If my information is correct, the recommendation for the latter's appointment came from the member for North Cape Breton.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It did not come from my department. I do not know what took place in Cape Breton; they have peculiar ways down there. .


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The member for South
Cape Breton (Mr. Douglas) is misinformed if he believes that I had anything to do with naming the gentleman who carried out the small repairs to the breakwater at Jamesville. In September last, before the present minister assumed office, and when the present Minister of Railways (Mr. Reid) was Acting Minister of Public Works, I made the statement in the House that the work was not being properly conducted- and that was when I could not possibly
hope to1 exercise any patronage in that connection. I was given to1 understand at that time by persons from that part of the country that the deficiency in the work was due tO' the fact that a man named McNeill, who was a good blacksmith, hut knew nothing whatever about building wharves, was in charge of it. When there was talk last winter about starting the w'ork again, Bernaseoni told me that he had been asked to take on the same foreman. He admitted that this man did not know anything about building a wharf, and )I said: I am not going to recommend a man; I do not know anybody in that district who1 is a wharf builder. He then suggested, that a man named Campbell be appointed, who had been the first foreman on the work and had been originally given the position by the Tories. The member for South Cape Breton knows that not a log, a stick or a stone had been put on the foundation of this wharf in our days, and that he himself is the author-and possibly will be the finisher-of this Tory, picayune work that is going on in such a haphazard, incomplete and incompetent way. Campbell had been appointed under Tory rule, on the recommendation, I assume, of the member for South Cope Breton, who was running 'the machine in Victoria county at that time. For some reason, this blacksmith had been able to outdo Oampbell and take the job from him-one Tory took the job from another. Campbell knew how to build a wharf, hut McNeill did not. When Bernaseoni suggested that Campbell be given the job, I said I did not care whether he was a Campbell or a Macdonald or what he was; that a good man should be obtained; so Bernas-coni took Campbell on in connection with the small expenditure that was made last year. I had nothing whatever to do with it; he was no friend or supporter of mine and never had been.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: A rearrangement of the engineering services in Nova Scotia will be made in the very near future. I cannot say what will be done, because the department has not arrived at any definite decision. But I assure members of the Committee-Liberals, Conservatives, Unionists, Opposition-that if Mr. Bernaseoni or anybody else cannot get along without playing the patronage game, I will move him somewhere where he will not be bothered with that sort of thing.
'South Ingonish-To repair and reconstruct 'beach protection, $1,900.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I Bay the same thing about this item: I hope that care will be
.COMMONS-
taken to ensure a proper expenditure of the money.


William Stevens Fielding: May I be permitted to renew a request which I made of the minister some days ago? This list of repairs, so far as it goes, is all right, but it is quite obvious that the list is inadequate and incomplete. It was prepared some months ago, and since then later reports of the engineers covering damage during the severe winter, have been received by the department. I should be obliged if the minister would see that the later reports of the engineers are examined, and if additional urgent works and repairs are found to be needed, that-on the strength of the engineer's report, not because I ask it- the work be done.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is a reasonable request. I am informed by thq deputy that some works have been so reported on, and if it be found on investigation that the $60,000 voted for harbours and rivers generally, is not sufficient, I will ask Parliament in the Supplementary Estimates to make the necessary provision for the additional expenditure. Without some protection it is impossible for fishermen to carry on their vocation, and I am much in .sympathy with the maintenance of these small public works. While I should not care to promise that any large sums of money will be expended, I will have investigation made and will ask Parliament to vote such additional sums as may be really necessary.
Prince Kdlward Island-Harbours and rivers generally, repairs and improvements, $14,00'0.


Joseph Read: I assume that the minister will make the same promise with regard to Prince Edward Island that he has made with regard to Nova Scotia?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Most certainly. If it be found really necessary to do so, I will not hesitate to ask Parliament to grant money for the maintenance of the .present services or the making of needed repairs.


Joseph Read: Who is doing the dredging at the new Port Borden? Is that under the Public Works Department or the Railway Department?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is under the
Department of Railways and Canals.
Miminigash Haribour-Repairs to breakwaters; $2,000.


Joseph Read: What are they
going to do at Miminigash? My information is that the breakwaters there .are
IMr. McKenzie.1
in pretty bad shape. I do not know what the repairs will cost. Have you had a report from the engineer lately?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The report which we
have comes from the district engineer, Mr. Hyndman. He says that $2,000 is asked for repairs to the south breakwater and to reconstruct the inner portion of the northern breakwater. He states that the greater portion of the Miminigash breakwater is of very old and indifferent construction, going back to 1878. There are various items, such as covering planks, piles, timber, floor stringers and things of that kind.


Joseph Read: Is that a recent
report?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, as late as January 30, 1918.
Summerside-Repairs to breakwater, $750.


Joseph Read: What are you
going to do in connection with the Sum-merside breakwater?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This is to repair damaged and worn portions of the outer block, which is exposed to running ice-hardwood sheeting, piles, iron bolts, and some other items.


Joseph Read: Wh^t is the date of that report?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I do not seem to have the date in my notes.


Mr. BUTTS:: Would the minister put
into the Estimates a small allowance for a wharf that was destroyed at Sydney mines in December or January? It was built a few years ago. It is in the constituency of my hon. friend from North Cape Breton (Mr. McKenzie) but it is very near my house.	-


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I will settle this right
off-we will build it.


Robert Hamilton Butts: Repair it.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, repair it.


Robert Hamilton Butts: That will do.
Mr. MeKENZIE:	I might remind my
good friend, neighbour and constituent that we dealt with that this evening.


Robert Hamilton Butts: I was not in.
Mr. MeKENZIE:	I am glad to remind
my hon. friend that I did not forget his front lawn while he was outside.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: You see, I was overgenerous.

Caipe Bald - Repairs to breakwater pier, $3,100.


Mr COPP:: What do you propose to do at Cape Bald breakwater?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: An appropriation of
$4,000 is asked by District Engineer -Stead to construct four large Concrete caissons to be placed about the outer corners of the pier, to reinforce the work which is partly broken there, and ten smaller caissons to protect the face of the work. 'The estimated cost of the four larger caissons is $400 each, and the total amount proposed to be voted id $3,100.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Has the minister the names of the gentlemen who have charge of the work ?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I could not give. the
name of any one except Mr. Stead, the district engineer.


Arthur Bliss Copp: You have not the names of the foremen?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No.
Richibucto Beach-breakwater-repairs, and improvements, $S00.
(Mr. LEGER:	Is this supposed to be for
the North Beach breakwater or the South Beach breakwater?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is not the "sawdust wharf" you are referring to?
iMr. LEGER:	Sawdust? No, the South
Beach breakwater.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I beg your pardon.


Auguste Théophile Léger: That sawdust wharf belongs to the old order and I would not refer to it here to-night. I am surprised that it is mentioned by the minister. '


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This amount of $800 is asked toy District Engineer Stead who states that the ends of both breakwaters are being cut into by .the ice and it ie proposed to put in stone at a cost of $600, and also to build some breastworks to protect the beach works. He says that the appropriation for 1917-18 was $1,600. I do not think any work was done last year at all. Is this not the work that has been referred to so many times in this House as the "sawdust wharf? "


Auguste Théophile Léger: The work is on the beach and it is three miles away from the " sawdust wharf." Are these the only items recommended by the district engineer for the county of Kent? The sum of $800 seems to be a pretty small provision to meet the public works which have not yet been completed in that county. For example, Richibucto Cape, Buctouche Beach and Kouchi-bouguac Beach breakwaters yet remain unfinished. There is also Little Gully breakwater, for the construction of which a large sum was voted three or four years ago. A large amount of material in the shape of stone and timber and other stuff was hauled to the spot and left there. This winter part of the stone was hauled to Richibucto Cape breakwater, a few miles away, and the timber was hauled away for firewood. There are lots of works needing attention along the shore, and I hesitate to believe that the reason why these works have not received attention is because of the change made in the representation from the county of Kent.
I prefer to think it is due to war-time necessities.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: So far as I know, this is the first request that has been made , to me or to the department for any further expenditure of money in Kent county. I am not in a position to state what the engineer may have reported, or what may have been stated to the engineer. I take the items as I find them, and this is the only item which I find for the county of Kent. I would, perhaps, take it that public works have been so well looked after in the county of Kent of late years that probably no necessity exists for making further expenditures at the present time. There is a general vote of $40,000, which will cover small repairs for which necessity may arise during the season, and if any accidents during the win-, ter have necessitated repairs I give the hon. gentleman the same answer that I have given to other hon, gentlemen to-night.


Auguste Théophile Léger: I do not know what the expenditure on Richibucto Cape breakwater has. been, tout work on. it was undertaken last winter and was in progress when I left in. March to* come to Ottawa. I agree with the hon. member for Inverness (Mr. Chisholm) that it is a poor policy to undertake such work in winter time; it is simply money thrown away. I do not think it is fair to limit the expenditure for work of this kind to $800 for the whole-county when there are sixty miles- of shore needing attention, many of which remain uncompleted. If the Government have determined not to proceed with these works all well and good, but as the representative of the county, I consider myself justified in asking that something be done to keep them in good repair. I do not blame the minister for neglecting to take proper mea-

sures; it is the district engineer who is responsible for all this work. That officer should have visited all these places and reported as- to what was necessary.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I hope the voters in the county of Kent will not blame their member. I have not heard anything from him until to-night, but we will try and make a proper distribution of the blame. I hope he is willing to take his share. I am perfectly willing to take mine, and I presume the engineer is in the same boat.


Auguste Théophile Léger: The only reason the minister did not hear from me was that in view of the abolition of the patronage system I thought any representations which I might make would have very little effect.
St. John 'River and tributaries-To provide full and final contribution to looa.1 government, not to exceed one-half cost of certain wharves built by it in tidal waters, $5,923.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What is the item for?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: For a great many years there has been a sort of partnership existing in the province of New Brunswick between the federal and the provincial authorities, under which each authority contributed one-half towards the cost of these works. During the past six or eight years however, a number of works were .bui't wholly by the local government.


Rodolphe Lemieux: In connection with the lumber business?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, they are wharves * on the St. John river end its tributaries. These wharves are used for steamboats which ply on the St. John river during the whcJs time the river is free from ice, which is about seven months each year, and every wharf was a necessary landing place for the steamers. A number of these wharves were built and the contributions were not made by the Dominion. When T assumed office I came to the conclusion that the work should be assumed entirely either by one Government or the other, and 1 take it that trafis and navigation are matters within the purview of the federal authorities. I met the Minister of Public'Works for New Brunswick, and we came to a settlement under which we agreed to pay them $5,923 to close up the transaction, and the wharves now belong to the Federal Government. The provincial authorities will pass the legislation necessary to confirm the title, and we will get rid of this hybrid partnership which has not produced very much benefit in past years.

Quebec, Anse aux Gascons-Repairs to wharf, $10,600.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Just a word, and then there will be a landslide with respect to all these items. I happen to represent one of these maritime constituencies, and found during my visit last fall that many of the most important works built along the coast had been partially washed away by the seas during heavy storms. I would not, under present circumstances, ask the minister to reconstruct all of these works.
During the past six or seven years the county has been very much neglected. I would not care to ask for the reconstruction of all those works that have gone to waste. But there are two works of vital importance to that coast to give the fishing community necessary shelter. I draw special attention to the wharf at Perce, which has cost the Government nearly $100,000. 'Half that wharf has been carried away. If a little patchwork had been done on it two or three years ago, the wharf would have been saved. Perce is the shire town of the county, 'and II would ask the minister to see that some repairs are made so that the steamers plying between New Brunswick and Gaspe will find propel accommodation there. The other point which is of special interest to the fishermen is called Anse au Beaufils. This harbour has been in existence for .several years, but owing to the action of ice and storm, part of the work has been washed away lately. This harbour is a most useful shelter not only for the Gaspe coast fishermen, but also to those from Miscou, Oaraquet and other places on the coast of New Brunswick. A few thousand dollars, a very few, would put this harbour in good condition. II make no plea at present for any other works, though the coast of Gaspe extends over a distance of two hundred miles. I emphasize the two works I have mentioned, the Perce wharf and the Anse au Beaufils .shelter. From the general appropriation, the minister can spare a few thousand dollars, .and his local engineer, Mr. Bertrand, a most painstaking and conscientious officer, can give him all the information on the 'subject.
'Mr. OARVELL: The matter which my hon. friend refers to is, of course, unknown to me personally, but I certainly will give it my consideration and go as far as I possibly can, although, if it amounts to $40,000 or $50,000, I fear it would be a pretty serious undertaking. However, I will promise him that I will give it the very best consideration I can.

Chicoutimi-Repairs to wharf, $2,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Near (Chicoutimi, the Northoliffe interests have put up a very large sulphite mill, at a point called Ha! Ha! Bay. The company has spent .something like three or four million dollars. One of the works it has constructed is a wharf, but in ordinary times steamers cannot moor ,there.
A company which has established such a large industry, and which has built a wharf of its own, is surely entitled to a little dredging around that wharf so that steamers can get as close to it as possible.
I must say that the department, through the deputy minister, has always received favourably the requests of the company. They are employing I do not know how many hundred people, and are a source of wealth and abundance to that district, and the Department of Public Works should not be too chary in letting that industry have the use of one or two dredges on the river Saguenay to facilitate the landing of freight and the loading of sulphite on board the steamers.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This is the first I have heard of this matter. I am informed that the Government did the dredging at the site of the wharf. I will be glad to go into the matter, and do whatever is possible.
Harbours and rivers generally-Repairs and improvements, $7*5,00>0.


Mr. ARCHAMBAULT:: I would like to ask the minister to include in the Supplementary Estimates, or in this item, a sum for the partial reconstruction and repair of the wharf at Vercheres. In the spring of 1917 the wharf was carried away by the ice-shove. Since then, no repairs have been made. This wharf serves a farming community, which produced, last year,
300,000	bushels of grain and about 30,000 tons of hay. The boat that plies between Montreal and Sore.1 used to stop at Vercheres, and it is certainly a hardship for the farmers of that district to be deprived of steamship service. Vercheres is about thirty miles from Montreal, and it is practically impossible for the farmers to bring their products, to Montreal in any other way. than by Ibo-at. If the minister could find a way to set aside the sum of $6,000, the work could be done. I understand the district engineer, Mr. Dansereau, made a favourable report on March 23 last.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: My hon. friend has
spoken to me about this matter on a number of occasions, and if the wharf is not built, his constituents cannot complain that
he has not been diligent, or that he has not done all that he possibly could. Now, there is a report in the department, and I want to confess to my hon, friend that I have never found time to go over it. He can understand that the ministers have been very busy. But, before the Supplementary Estimate's are brought down, I intend to go over all these matters. Although I have no particular knowledge about it, it seems to me that the request of the hon. member is fairly reasonable. I assure him that 1 will give it consideration.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The minister should
remember that Vercheres is a historic spot. The statue of Madeleine de Vercheres is there.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This is a pretty coldblooded proposition over here.
Laprairie protection works-maintenance and repairs, $20,000.
Mr. DuTREMBLAY:	Is $20,090 enough
to complete the work? Has the amount of $85,000 voted last year been expended? As the minister will know this is a very important matter for the people of the district of Montreal and the people on the South Shore. The work has 'been supposed to be in progress for some years. We have been waiting for two or three years for its completion, and we should very much like to have it completed.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This work, I shall admit, has been progressing for a long time, and really I have had, very grave doubts in past years whether the federal Parliament was justified in expending money on a work of this kind. The principle, however, has been adopted; the work is very nearly completed, and I am going to see that it is completed so far as it is necessary to complete it.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I understand the minister went there.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I went there, and I
think I shall be my own engineer for the finishing up of this work; and I hope I shall please my hon. friends opposite and the people of that vicinity. I cannot understand why it has taken three or four years to build a dyke such as I found across the low lands at Laprairie.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The elections were postponed from year to year.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There may be something in that.	.


Rodolphe Lemieux: That is the only reason. Look elsewhere.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I cannot understand
some of the methods by which it is being constructed. The work, however, is. going to ibe of very great .convenience, not only to the people of Laprairie and that portion of the South shore of the St. Lawrence, but to the general travelling public. I -was there .about a month ago, and at that time it would'have been almost impossible for people to reach Montreal by ordinary means of conveyance if that highway were not there, because, after all, it is simply a dyke seventeen or eighteen feet high, upon the top of which is a highway. In going over it, I was impressed by a few things. The first was that I did not believe in the method of construction. I do not understand why it was necessary to build a concrete face up and down the whole length of that dyke, which must be a mile long, as a protection against the ice shock. If it had an ordinary rock embankment about one and one-half to one, that is all that would be required.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The best rock is Boch Lanctot.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: On'the river side, two-thirds of it I suppose, is now finished. Another thing that impressed me was that it was a great pity the embankment was not made two or three feet wider. It ought to be sufficiently wide to admit of a street railway track. It may be possible even now to put a track on the top of the embankment, but that would, to some extent, interfere with the ordinary highway 'for vehicles. Thai, however, is largely a matter for the Provincial Government and the people of that community, because, once this work is constructed, if I remain in this position, I think I shall have to take the position that it is purely a local work which rightfully belongs to the municipal or provincial authorities, and I would feel very much like washing my bands of it. I do not think, however, we would he justified, under present conditions, in carrying out the plans to their minutest details and putting a concrete covering over the whole surface of the road, especially when the road on either end of it is merely a macadamised road. It should be constructed uip to the highest standard of a macadamised road to conform with the general conditions of the road on either end of it, so that if a man goes along in an automobile, he can make just as good time over the dyke as over the highway. When that has been accomplished, the
10 p.m. Government of Canada will . have pretty nearly done its duty.
fMr. Lemieux.]
I want to assure my hon. friends that we intend to prosecute that work just as soon as we can get through with this session of Parliament and I can look around and satisfy myself as to the most economical and business like methods of finishing it. We shall not put off until the autumn, we shall finish it up at once, and we shall give the people of that community just as good a road over the dyke as they have on either end of it.


Rodolphe Lemieux: My hon. friend takes the right view of the whole situation. Many years ago Laprairie was a very interesting town. The first railway built in Canada started from Laprairie. One of the two old wharves which my hon. friend saw, was the terminus of the first railway built in Canada, in the forties. It ran from Laprairie to St. Johns. Then Laprairie ceased to be the terminus by the construction of the Grand Trunk. There was a time when this village was very thriving. There were two banks, and there was quite a big trade, and two steamers were plying between Montreal and Laprairie. Then the Victoria bridge was built, and one of the steamers disappeared. Later on, the Dominion Government gave the Grand Trunk new subsidies to rebuild the Victoria bridge, but unfortunately they gave the Grand Trunk powers to charge the poor farmers such tolls that I consider them being mulcted. From all those considerations, therefore, something is due to the people of that community. The land, as the minister has noticed, is very low. The river St. Lawrence forms a bay from the Lachine rapids down to the Victoria bridge, and every year Laprairie is flooded. I could not give an estimate of the property damaged or lost as a result of those annual floods. For years past, under the old Conservative Government, under the Laurier Government, protection works have been erected, but they never were completed. The present work will complete what was started very many years ago. The trouble is that this amount has been in the Estimates since 1911, hut through purely political considerations the works have been postponed from year to year, because the elections were not forthcoming. The minister has now visited the district, and he intends to apply this amount, and to make the dyke as useful as possible. Let him finish the work as speedily as he can. Not only the people of Laprairie, but the people of Montreal will benefit by it.

Matane-Repairs to breakwater, $1,000.
Mr. BTJ'TTS: I may be out of order, but can the minister say whether the St. Paul, which is reported to have overturned in an Atlantic port, was in Halifax harbour at the time.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am not guilty. The
boat was certainly mot in Halifax harbour.
Hurray Bay-Repairs and improvements to wharf, $2,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Murray Bay and myeelf are very deeply interested in these improvements. Murray Bay has become quite an international watering place. During four months of the year there is -a big influx of American and Canadian tourists and the population increases I would say by at least two thousand in the summer. The improvements made by the late Administration were certainly necessary, and I hope they will be completed at the earliest opportunity. Several steamers c-all at Murray Bay. There is the Government steamer between Riviere Ouelle and Murray Bay, which is nearly always full of American and Canadian tourists, and then there are the Richelieu boats, how known as the Canada Line boats. The wharf, in the busy season is jammed not only ,with passengers but with vehicles of every kind, for the cliff is very steep, as its -name implies,-Pointe-a-Pic- and carriages are necessary to take the passengers up the hill. The wharf, which was too narrow, has been widened, but now the railways occupy a portion of it with their' tracks, and I hope my h-on. friend will lose no time having the improvements completed.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: We certainly intend to
proceed with these improvements the moment we have the money. The improvements include pine sheathing, flooring and things of that kind. We will go on with the work at once and finish it up.
Pointe a Elie

Repairs to breakwater

wharf, $1,200.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Is this in the Magdalen Islands?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What I said a moment ago about Gaspe applies equally to the Magdalen Islands. The county of Gaspe is composed of the peninsula proper, the main land, and the Magdalen Islands. A peculiar feature is that the county member, in order to reach a portion of his county, has to pass through the provinces of Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island. There is a thriving
population of from -six to seven thousand on the islands, and many good harbours, btit the wharves and piers have been sadly neglected during the last two or three years owing to the absence of the representative of the county. The storms have been more numerous and severe during the last two years than ever before, and I am' informed by many letters and telegrams that repairs and improvements are absolutely necessary. When the minister receives a report from the resident engineer I would ask him to see that the population is treated fairly.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have his report before me, and I am carrying out his suggestions.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Improvements are not only required at Pointe a Elie, but also at Amherst, Grand Entry, and at another point which I cannot recall at the moment. These places should all be looked after by the resident engineer, and I hope that if ne asks Ur a few small amounts for repairs and improvements at these places, the people on the Islands, who are isolated for six months of the year, will not be neglected.
Rimouski-Harbour improvements, $100,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: How far have you got with the new works at Rimouski?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: My information is that this vote will finish the Rimouski wharf. We were reluctant to spend such a large amount of money, but in view of the fact that Rimouski is the landing port for ocean steamers on the St. Lawrence, it has been considered necessary to finish up the work, and we shall complete it as rapidly as possible.	.
St. John's-Reconstruction of booms, $1,30#.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: Which St, John's is this?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: St. John's and Iberville, on the Richelieu river.
St. Laurent, Island of Orleans-Repairs to wharf, $2,700.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: Is this the full amount estimated for repairs and improvements?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The engineer asks for this amount for general repairs to the wharf -fenders, hardwood sheathing, cribwork, and so on.
Yamaska-Reconstruction of dam, $1,500.
Mr. DuTREMBLAY: I understand that the Federal Government has offered to cooperate with the provincial government in

the construction, of a bridge across the Batiscan river on the highway between Montreal and Quebec. My information is that the Federal Government offer to pay a certain proportion of the cost on condition that the bridge be built about a quarter of a mile above the road, while the provincial authorities want to build it directly in line with the road. In the press of yesterday it is stated that the provincial-authorities and the people of Quebec are offered help by the Federal Government in this matter, and I should1 like to know what information the .minister can give me with regard to it.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have no knowledge that the Federal Government ever made an offer of that kind to the provincial government. They may have done so before I assumed office.


Jacques Bureau: Approaches have been built there by the Federal Government.
Mr. CARVE,EL: They are possibly for ice protection. I never could understand why the Federal Government should build bridges across rivers within provinces. The Federal Government has assisted in building interprovincial bridges, but it would be opening a very wide door to start building bridges across ordinary rivers within provinces.


Samuel William Jacobs: You built the Quebec bridge.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is a different
matter. We built a bridge across the Ottawa river many years ago, and now we are paying the penalty because we are being asked to assist in rebuilding it. If we violate this fundamental law, we will have to pay the price, il was approached by a high official of the Quebec Government about this matter some time ago, and as he was a good lawyer, I mentioned some of the difficulties that appeared to me to be in the way. If .any promise was made by the Federal Government, it is unknown to me.
Ontario-French River-In full andi final settlement of all claims of Jennings, and Ross in connection with their contract for the construction of the substructure of the Big ChaudiSre Dam, including interest thereon at 5 per cent., $5,800i


Mr.   GANNON@: What claim did these contractors make?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: They made a claim of $16,000. It was thought that if they were entitled to receive $5,115.97 three years ago, they are entitled to interest on it. I under-

stand that art Order in Council was passed .authorizing the payment of the money, and we are now asking that the necessary amount be voted to carry that arrangement out.
Sheguindah-Repairs to wharf, $1,000.


Mr. G. B. NICHOLSON:: Has the department in contemplation any investigation of the conditions surrounding the wharves on tihe waters of Manitoulin Island and in the north channel adjacent to Manitoulin island having regard to the Government taking over what are now privately owned docks? My information is that many of these harbours have, within recent years, become important from the fact that the country has rapidly developed and i.s now very largely agricultural where it was formerly simply lumbering. The docks were purely private and many of them are still privately owned. This works a very considerable hardship owing to the fact that the man who owns the dock naturally controls the shipping. Has the department had that matter under consideration and, if not, will the minister undertake to have the engineers of the Public Works Department make an investigation and report on the advisability of the Government taking over the docks where the traffic that formerly was private has become public?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have not heard of it before, although it may have been brought to the attention of my predecessors in the department. I could not promise my hon. friend (Mr. Nicholson)that I would ask the engineers to make a report or that I would act upon it, because that would be a question of policy for the Government to decide. However, I will go into the matter and give it the best consideration I can. It seems to me that there is a great deal in what the hon. gentleman says but, knowing so little about it, I really could not express an opinion.
Wendover-Repairs to wharf, $1,000;


Mr. EULER:: Before we leave harbours _ and rivers in Ontario, I note that there is no appropriation included here for repairs to the wharf, or dredging in the harbour at Port Dover, or what should be the harbour of Port Dover. Port Dover is not in my constituency, but the improvement of that harbour will affect very materially the cities and towns north of that point right up into Waterloo county, including Brantford, Galt, Kitchener, Waterloo, Elmira, and. various others. The minister will recollect that two or three weeks ago

a large delegation of manufacturers and others from central western Ontario had an interview with him and pressed this upon him. The minister very kindly promised to take the matter into his consideration, but I find no appropriation and I would like to ask him whether he has looked into the matter further and whether we may expect anything in the Supplementary Estimates. The object of the request for the improvement of this particular harbour is this: Within the last two or three years a very efficient railway has been constructed from Galt to Port Dover. It is proposed to use that road for the carrying of coal. Coal can be brought directly across Lake Erie to Port Dover and distributed to the industrial towns and cities of central Western Ontario, including those which I have mentioned. As the committee knows, the cities and towns of central Western Ontario are very largely of an industrial nature. They are great manufacturing centres, and coal is absolutely necessary. During the last few years, and especially last winter, we have had a great deal of difficulty in obtaining coal, and we obtain it at a much greater cost than would be necessary if this harbour were placed in such a condition that coal could he brought across the Lake, discharged at Port Dover and then transported northward to these centres by this new road. The people of that section do not ask for any unnecessary capital expenditures, but they do ask that that harbour be put in such a condition, if only for the coming season, that it will facilitate the bringing in of coal at a much less cost. If the minister can give us any assurance on that point -possibly he has-he will remedy a very trying situation in Western Ontario. I cannot see from these Estimates that Ontario especially central western Ontario- is enjoying the expenditure of a great deal of money in matters of this kind. Port Dover offers the very best facilities for harbour purposes on the northern shore of Lake Ontario.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It is true a representative and very influential delegation waited upon me some time ago with regard to this very important harbour. I am not in a position to state what will be done, but I think I can state very frankly the position of affairs. Apparently in 1872, by some sort of an arrangement, this harbour became the property of the Grand Trunk Railway company with the provision that the Government could take it over at any time by Order in Council. The Grand Trunk have
done practically nothing towards developing it, and fairly large sums have been expended by the Government from 1870 down to recent years. Some portions of the works are somewhat in decay and disuse. I have no doubt that everything that my hon. friend (Mr. Euler) says about the importance of developing the coal carrying trade over that electric road is in accordance with the facts. I will go so far as to say that I intend to ask my colleagues to take over this harbour under the terms of the Order in Council, and make it a public harbour. I think it will require $6,000 to put it in such a condition that it may be utilized during the coming year. I want my hon. friend to realize that if we attempted to carry out the plan suggested, it would take $300,000 or $400,000.


William Daum Euler: Only $260,000, I think.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, my hon. friend is
in error. It would be more than that if we carried out the whole scheme, and we simply cannot afford to spend that much money at the .present time. It would take probably a couple of years to do so, and then you would not get the coal. Furthermore, I want the hon. gentleman to realize that there are four other big coal ports on lake Erie, and thus there is a pretty good inlet for the coal destined for that portion of Ontario, in addition to which there .are the bridges across the Niagara river. However, I was very much impressed with the fairness of the delegation. It looked to me like good business, and I am at least making .a start. I am proposing to take over this, harbour, put it on the same general plan as the remainder of the harbours on lake Erie, and do whatever work may be necessary in order that vessels may go in there .at the present time. I can only hope that when financial conditions again become normal we will be able to go on and develop that harbour, and meet what seems to be the very reasonable request of that portion of the province. While the hon. gentleman claims that the province of Ontario is not getting a very large amount of money, he must remember that that province is not a maritime country, in the sense that the eastern and western portions of Canada are. While they have the lakes, yet these do not approach in importance the Atlantic or the Pacific oceans, and if he figures up the .amount he will find that Ontario is being very well treated.. That province in these expenditures is. getting more than all the Maritime Provinces put together, and about the same, as the prov-

inee of Quebec. I want to assure my hon. friend that in making up the Estimates, the question of whether this or that .province was getting .more or less appropriation never entered into our minds for a moment; it was purely according to what we considered the transportation necessities of the country.


William Daum Euler: I would regret very much
if the minister felt that I was indulging in criticisms on the ground that other provinces were receiving an undue share of the public appropriations, because that was not my intention. I 'brought the matter up so that it should be decided purely on its merits, and for no other reason. I do not understand, however, from what the delegation announced when they interviewed the minister, and from other information in my possession, that the amount of $6,000 would put the harbour temporarily into condition, but in that view I may be wrong. If investigation has been made, and that amount of money will serve, we will cer-tanly be all the more satisfied.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is what our engineers report.


William Daum Euler: Then I will not go behind that report. I do not think it was the intention of the delegation to ask the minister now to expend the amount of money that would be required to put the harbour permanently into the condition in which it should be, but that something should be done this year to make use of the facilities that we would have, through the railway in question, to import coal. So far as other ports on Lake Erie are concerned, I do not think that for the importation of coal into the manufacturing centres, they are of any particular value. I think practically all the coal that now comes in comes across the bridge at Niagara Falls.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I think my hon. friend is correct. The delegation, according to my recollection, asked for the expenditure of about $70,000.


William Daum Euler: About $60,000.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Well, about $60,000, or $70,000.
Manitoba-Barbours and rivers generally- Repairs and improvements, $15,00(1.


Frank S. Cahill: What is this item for?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It is a general vote for the province just the same as has been voted for all the rest of the provinces. If any unforeseen expenditure becomes necessary, we

have this small vote out of which to pay the expenses.


Frank S. Cahill: I hope the minister is not asking for this money just because it has been voted before, but because it is absolutely necessary. There does not seem to be any great number of harbours and rivers in Manitoba.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There are important
wharves and works upon the Red River and upon Lake Winnipeg. I am not a judge of exactly how necessary those works are, but they must be kept in repair. If an accident happens unless we have a vote of this kind we have no way of meeting the expenditure.


Frank S. Cahill: Was the amount voted last year spent?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, last year only $2,805 was expended.
.Saskatchewan and Alberta-harbours and rivers generally-repairs and improvements, $20,000.


Frank S. Cahill: Oan the minister state how much money was spent last year?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The sum of $2,377 was spent last year.'


Air. KNOX:: In view of the size of the territory covered, have the points' been defined where this money is likely to be spent?
'Mr. CARVELL: No, it is just a general vote taken for the purpose of safety. We hope that it may not be necessary to expend 'the money.
British Columbia-Fraser River (Lower] - Improvements, $ 21,500.
Mr. 'STAC'EY: The term " Lower Fraser " has a varied interpretation. Sometimes in certain circles it means that portion of the river below New Westminster city, and sometimes in other circles and under other circumstances it means that portion of the river below Hope. What interpretation does the department give, and how much of the Fraser river is actually covered by the vote?
Mr. CARVEfLL: This is what is called the " snag " vote, and the stretch to which it applies extends to Chilliwack above New Westminster.
Dredging-.New dredging plant-Ontario and Quebec, $6,000.
Air. DuTREMBLAY:	Will the minister
explain this item?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This is for what is called the shipyard in Ottawa, the place at the

upper end of the town where dredges, scows and things of that kind are repaired.
Dredging-Maritime Provinces, $200,000.


Auguste Théophile Léger: Does this item include dredging in small rivers?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: 
Auguste Théophile Léger: The reason I asked the question is that in the past year a certain amount was voted for dredging and breastworks in the Aldouane river in the county of Kent, N.B., to facilitate the taking by the farmers of mussel mud for fertilizing purposes from the bay up the river. I understand that there is much dredging yet to be done, and there is no other way of getting that fertilizer transported the five or :six miles to where it is used except by water. By doing a little dredging, the farmers can get their oyster shell and mussel mud fertilizer from the bay onto the wharf built some years ago. Only a small amount will be necessary to do the work in this river, and the same also applies to the St. Charles and St. Louis rivers. There are certain parts of the St. Louis river, near the mouth, where the land is flat, and some dredging was done last year and the year before so that at low water boats could get through. I understand that last fall the channel had filled up in some places, necessitating further attention from the Government to facilitate fishing. My desire is to facilitate as much as possible the work of the fishermen who have long distances to go, and also to help the farmers to get as much fertilizer as possible. There may be no recommendation by the district engineer on this subject. He has spent a good deal of money in the past on these rivers, and if the minister called his attention to it a certain amount might be spent on this work.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have never heard * of this matter before, but it is out of a vote like this that such important works as my hon. friend refers to are paid. I shall certainly have the matter investigated.


Auguste Théophile Léger: I thank the minister.
Mr. MteKENZIE:	I wish to remind the
minister that in my riding, at the mouth of the arm of the sea called the Little Bras d'Or a very large amount of money was spent in dredging, in the years 1908, 1909 and 1910, and some of the work is still unfinished. What is left unfinished consists of ridges here and there through the channel. It is a splendid channel in some places, but these ridges constitute a danger to shipping. I think a very small amount of money would finish up the work. If the minister has not a report on it, I would like him to get a report of the exact condition of that work, as I do not think it is available to navigators.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I will make a note of it, and see that it is investigated.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: 
Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Perhaps my hon. friend will pardon me. He is not an old member of the Hojuse, and there is what may [DOT]seem to him an incongruity in the fact that the St. Lawrence ship channel is entirely under the control of the Marine and Fisheries Department and not of the Public Works Department. Therefore, no portion of the money we are asking for now has anything to do with the St. Lawrence ship channel. It is very much along the line of the similar vote for the Maritime Provinces, namely to maintain dredging plants which are owned by the department itself, which are sent around to places where work is needed, usually in small ways. It pays



salaries, wages, coal, repairs, and everything of that kind. It wonld have nothing to do with the St. Lawrence ship channel. In answer to my hon. friend's question as to whether or not the engineers have been remiss in their duty, they have suggested that there should be over $4,000,000 worth of dredging done in Ontario and Quebec. I am only sorry that I am unable to accept all their suggestions.
Mr. DuTREMBLAY: That money, I understand, was to be spent in Ontario and Quebec. Where is it to be spent?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It would take me, I was going to say, half an hour to read the names of the places, but they all want dredging done. It would be of great advantage to the transportation of the country if we could give them the dredging, but I am afraid we cannot comply with the request.
Nova Scotia telegraph and telephone lines- Cape Breton telegraph system-renewal of poles between Eskasoni and1 East Bay, $700.


Alexander William Chisholm: I do not know that this is an opportune time to ask a few questions with regard to the policy of the Government concerning telephones. The minister will remember that last year we had a discussion on this subject in which he participated. There is only a limited mileage ot telephones in Nova Scotia, but before now the telephones were distributed just wheTe they would suit the politician. I made that statement last year; I made it the year before, and I make it again now. It is absolutely unfair, where a telegraph service has been converted into a telephone service, not to distribute the boxes wherever they are most needed. I shall illustrate a case. There is a line in the county of Inverness going through the districts of Upper Margaree, East Lakes, Ainslee and Whycoeomagh. There is a doctor there who has to attend professionally the settlements all around. That doctor cannot get a box.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: What is his name?


Alexander William Chisholm: Dr. McDonald.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Tell him to wire me in regard to it. 1


Alexander William Chisholm: Very good, I shall stop talking. If last year the former minister had done that, I would have been satisfied. In every case in which a man is prepared to pay for a box, why in the name of common sense does he not receive it at a reasonable rental, or free, as may be the policy of the Government?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Tell him to send a wire and he will get a box.


Alexander William Chisholm: Very good. Now I am satisfied that justice will be done in this matter o'f telephones in my county.
Mr. BUTTiS: I feel like asking the minister to be a little more generous. I notice that only $700 is to be appropriated for the telegraph system in that beautiful county, Cape Breton. I wish to call the attention of the minister to two very important matters that have for years been discussed among the people of Cape Breton county. One is the question of Glace Bay harbour. Perhaps the minister is not as familiar with the history of it as we people of 'Cape Breton are, but some years ago, through some action of this Parliament, Glace Bay harbour was taken away from the Government and given to the Dominion Coal Company, and since then it has remained practically a private harbour.


Georges Henri Boivin: Is the hon. gentleman referring to the installation of a telephone system there?
iMr. BUTTS: No.


The.   CHAIRMAN@: I am afraid1 the hon. gentleman is out of order. I regret very much to call him to order.


Robert Hamilton Butts: I am nearly always out of order, but you, Sir, always look after me; Perhaps you might be a little generous with me.


Georges Henri Boivin: I am afraid the hon. [DOT]gentleman will be the cause of my being obliged to be very generous to other hon. members, and I shall, therefore, have to ask him to desist from his argument.


Robert Hamilton Butts: Perhaps I shall be able to get in under the roof in some way. It is in regard to this matter of $700.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Would it not be a good thing if the hon. member had a telephone line to Glace Bay?


Robert Hamilton Butts: It would be a great deal better if the minister would take over Glace Bay harbour and make considerable improvements.


Georges Henri Boivin: Order. I am very sorry, but the hon. member is not in order.
Mr. BUTT'S: I bow to your ruling. I was going to suggest to the minister that perhaps he might increase the amount.
Mr. M-cKENZIE: Is this the total amount for telephone system in the Maritime Provinces? Last year there was a general appropriation of a considerable amount.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I might shorten this discussion, by making a general statement. The telephone system has been a matter of evolution. A great many years ago it became necessary-and, I think, quite properly so that the Federal Government should construct telegraph lines to outlying districts- which were en-11 p.m. tirely out of touch with the rest of the world unless some means of communicating were provided for them. That went on for many years, and, like many other matters, I presume it was to some extent abused. What may have been a necessity forty or fifty years ago ceased to be a necessity five years ago, but those telegraph lines were Government institu- . tions-, and it was pretty hard to get rid of them. Of late years they have all been converted into telephone lines, and a telephone line, if properly operated, is very much more useful to the average person living in an out-of-the-way district than is a telegraph line. I have never had the experience of living alongside of a Government-owned- telephone line, and I do not believe they are necessary in many portions of Canada. Last year I listened to a great deal of discussion about the condition of affairs in Cape Breton Island. I have listened to the discussion here tonight. I know something about the condition of affairs in a small line in the province of New Brunswick. I am told- that there are in the province of Alberta and Saskatchewan lines that are absolutely useless because they are practically parallelling telephone lines owned and operated by the governments of those two provinces. There- is no doubt that these telegraph lines were necessary when they were originally built, and- it is a pity that as settlements became more numerous some arrangement was not made by which this Government could have sold out or handed over the system to the provinces and thus get rid of this annual expenditure. In the northern: part of British Columbia an entirely different condition of affairs prevails. The Government telephone system there brings people in touch with the outside world who otherwise would be completely isolated. This question is so big that I would not profess to express an opinion- on it. I do believe, however, that there are other portions of British Columbia where there is no necessity for a Government-owned telephone system. I may as well state to the House frankly that I intend during the coming s-ummer to have one of the best telephone experts in Cam-ad a 741
go over the whole Government telephone system in this country and give me a business report, upon which I shall try to act in a businesslike w-ay. I personally believe that all the Government telephone systems in the Maritime Provinces should be disposed of; either sold to the existing companies hr given away to them if necessary; let ns get some one to take them off our hands. I would certainly sell out the system in New Brunswick were it not foT the fact that I am largely interested in the company that would probably have to do the buying. Therefore, I suppose I would not be justified in doing that. What I have said of New Brunswick is true of Nova Scotia. I do not know exactly what the telephone system is in Cape Breton Island, but it seems absolutely ridiculous that the Government of Canada should operate, a telephone system in that island. The system- should toe operated toy a local company, or by the Maritime Provinces Telegraph and Telephone Company, or by somebody else who would do- it on business- principles. In Quebec, I think an even worse condition of affairs prevails. We havie telephones there in two counties, the county of Dorchester and the county of Quebec, and I think Quebec is a great deal worse than Dorchester. There are miles and miles of Government-owned lines in Quebec; I do not know what in. the world they d-o- with them all. There is one fellow down there who goes on building and takes his Chances of getting his pay; you cannot stop him from building telephone lines. But we are going to try and make an impression on him. in two or three weeks in order to get him to -call a halt. In Ontario there is the Pelee Island cable. I do not know that there are any Government lines in Manitoba, but in Saskatchewan and Alberta there are important lines. Just think of the Government operating a telegraph or telephone line from Qu'Appelle to Edmonton through one of the most thickly-settled and richest portions of our great- Northwest. Three other telegraph lines parallel that wire which may have been needed at first but it certainly cannot be a necessity now. To sum up, I can only say that I intend to have a business report made, and I am going to, try and act on it from a business standpoint. I hope the House will pass the items which I am proposing. I am not going to promise to expend this money, but I can assure the House that if expended it will be expended under proper conditions, and with the firm belief that the expenditure is necessary.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I hope my hon. friend did' not understand me to say that I propose to take away from any people the privileges which they now enjoy. What I would like to do is to dispose of many of the lines that are unnecessary and put the rest of them oni a business basis. If the Government is going to operate telegraph or telephone lines they should regard them as public utilities, and operate them on a business basis, and the people who use the service should pay something for the accommodation commensurate with what people in other portions of Canada are paying where they have to look after their own affairs.


Lucien Cannon: I see by last year's Estimates that the sum of $3,500 was voted for
fMr. Carvell.]
the construction of a telephone line through certain parishes in the county of Dorchester. I should like to know what amount of money was expended on the construction of these lines, and how far the work has been carried. I noticed when I was going through these parishes that the poles were up, hut no wires and no boxes, and it is needless for me to insist on how useless the line is in that condition for the people of those parishes.
The parishes of iSt. Louis de Gonzague and St. Cyprien have no communication with the outside world, and telephone lines are of great service to the people who live there. As the lines are at present, however, they are absolutely of no use; the money spent laat year will have been wasted unless the work is completed [DOT] this year. Last year mention was made of the conditions in the parish of St. Luc-situated behind St. Germain-the people of which have no outside communication. When they wish to engage the services of a doctor, they have to drive thirty-four miles. If the minister intends to spend .any money this year on telephone lines he ought to make some arrangement whereby St. Luc will be connected with St. Germain, because these parishes are in the same position as the other two in which work was begun last year.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have no intention of
spending more money this year on completing telephone lines in Dorchester county, but I do intend to put the wiring on the poles that have been erected and to carry out the arrangements made last year. The wire .has been purchased, and must be on the poles by this time. Any new settlement in Canada has as much right to ask the department to erect telephone lines within its bounds as have the parishes my hon. friend .has referred to. In my own province over one thousand settlers have gone into the country along the Restigouche river within the last four or five years. They are simply crying out for land; they are overflowing from the river St. John on the south to the St. Lawrence on the north. These people built their own telephone lines and made their own arrangements; they are not asking the Government to do it for them. They come to an nnderstand-ing with existing telephone companies, or they organize local companies and obtain connecting rights with the larger telephone concerns. Think what a door was opened last year, and what a door I should open if I went on with further work of this kind this year.


Lucien Cannon: The principle laid down last year may be bad; I do not say it is good. As a matter of fact these telephone lines were started simply because they were promised during an election.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The election is over now.
'Mr. CANNON: Yes, but the fact that the Government started to build these lines prevented local companies from doing the work. Any reasonable agreement proposed by the department to local companies would, I believe, be accepted.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I make this sporting offer to my hon. friend: if he.can organize a local company we will sell the whole thing out for half what it cost.


Lucien Cannon: What is it worth?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I will tell the hon. gentleman what it cost and we will give it to him at fifty cents on the dollar.


Lucien Cannon: Before considering the minister's offer, I wish to point out that the gentleman who built this line last year-his name is Martineau-


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The same gentleman, I think, who operated in Quebec county.


Lucien Cannon: Perhaps so. This gentleman actively engaged in building the lines, but he forgot to pay the men who did the work. Who is responsible for that, the Government or Martineau?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Martineau.


Lucien Cannon: What arrangement was made between the Government and Martineau I do not know. In any case, they have a complete telephone line in Dorchester now, and the people who worked on the construction of it have not been paid.
Maintenance and operation of water storage dams on Ottawa river and tributaries-surveys in connection therewith and settlement of land damages, $125,0'00.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I propose to make a thorough investigation of this matter before the money is expended.
To pay Western Dry Dock and Shipping Co., Limited, of Port Arthur, a portion of the fifth payment of subsidy due them upon their completion of the work covered by the agreement ratified by Chap. 57, 3-4 George V., 1913, notwithstanding that the work is not completed, $35,641.50.


Jacques Bureau: I notice that it is proposed to pay this company notwithstanding that the work is not completed. Is the work behind?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The work was not entirely completed and therefore we are paying them less than the amount that wo would be required to pay them by statute. For that reason we are taking a special vote. Otherwise the department would go by statutory authority.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Is it almost complete or in a fair state of completion?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There are just a few machines that have not been placed but it is not completed to the extent that the engineer could give a certificate that it is finally completed.
Public Works chargeable to collection of revenue-slides and booms, $53,900.


Jacques Bureau: Are these booms in the Upper Ottawa district?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is in the same category as the Upper Ottawa Improvements.
I intend to make a pretty careful investigation of this matter. It is an old custom under which the Government of Canada practically takes charge of transporting all the lumber down the Ottawa river. It may have been necessary a hundred years ago and it possibly may be necessary to-day but I would like to know a little more about it before we branch out to any great extent.
Graving docks, $68,300.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Where are these?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There is the Champlain graving dock at Levis, the Levis graving dock and the Esquimalt graving dock.
Harbour and river works, $40,700.
Mr. EDWARD'S: What position are you in with regard to the removal of the temporary bridge at Kingston?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: We have taken out the draw and I think there was an arrange-' ment made to sell the material to the city of Kingston at a pretty reduced price. It >s practically understood that the city will take the material but we are getting something out of it.


William Cameron Edwards: Is the department pulling up the piles?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, we are removing the piles and selling the material to the-city. There was a delegation from Kingston here. I do not know -that we concluded an absolute contract, but still I think it was pretty well settled between us.


Jacques Bureau: I see that under the head of harbour and river works, there are the river Yamaska lock and dam, and Riviere

du Lievre lock and dam. Are these locks and dams for navigation or for logging purposes?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: My information is that they are for navigation purposes.


Mr. J. C. DOUGLAS:: With reference to the item, " Burlington channel bridge," has this anything to do with the Burlington revetment wall for which a contract was awarded and in regard to which, I understand, the balance has been more or less in dispute.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is at Hamilton, Ont.P


John Carey Douglas: Yes.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This amount of $5,800 is required for staff maintenance and repairs in connection with the Burlington channel bridge which is to provide a crossing over the ship channel for vehicular traffic and the cars of the radial railway from Hamilton to Oakville and intermediate points. There are repairs, renewals, painting, staff, bridge tender and three assistants, etc. These items make up the total of $5,800.
Telegraph and telephone lines-land and cable telegraph lines, lower St. Lawrence and Martime Provinces, including working expenses of vessels required for cable service,
$ao>2,ooo.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: There is a place called White Point in Victoria county, a very considerable fishing village, and it is about nine miles from the nearest telegraph line. They have never been able to get connection with the Government telegraph system. In summer time they can come from White Point in a boat five miles to a place called Dingwall, but in winter time they have to travel around the mainland about nine miles before they can send a message. For years they have been trying to get the line extended from Dingwall to White Point.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Are there any settlements between the two points?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: There are scattered farming settlements and the village is out on the point. They have been writing to me. When we had power ourselves, I made an effort to get this thing done, but I did not succeed. I had always hoped that I would be able' to overcome the difficulty. This must appeal to the minister. Here is a little community placed out on this point and it is desired that they shall have communication with the outside world. A very small amount of money would string a line along the shore down to White Point and give them a telegraph office.
[iMr. Bureau.]


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It is very hard to resist my hon. friend's pleading, but I could not make any promise. I want to remind him that this vote is not for construction purposes, it is purely for maintenance. This illustrates the statement I made sometime ago when I said that it is costing this country $766,000 to operate these telephones. Of course there is some revenue, I do not know exactly how much, but nothing like sufficient to meet operating expenses, let alone interest on the investment. However, I will take into consideration what the hon. gentleman states.
(Mr. McKENZIE: The expenditure involved is very slight, considering the accommodation it would afford to a deserving community.
Mr. CAiRVBLL: It would involve the expenditure of about $1,000, I think.


Mr DECHENE:: Does this vote take in telegraph lines starting from Quebec down?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This takes in the lines extending away down the St. Lawrence river, I think, to Chicoutimi and Belle Isle, as well as the line in Dorchester and Quebec counties.


Joseph Bruno Aimé Miville Déchêne: Does it take in the quarantine telephone and telegraph lines at Grosse Isle?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes.
Mr. DECHENE I see that last year the District Superintendent, Mr. G. B. Poulrot, received $1,000 for salary, (and there was also a payment made to him of $129.47. Apparently Mr Pouliot draws two salaries.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It looks that way.


Joseph Bruno Aimé Miville Déchêne: Did the same man receive both payments? ,


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It may be his wife, I am not sure.


Joseph Bruno Aimé Miville Déchêne: It cannot be his wife, or the designation " Mrs." or " Madame " would have been used.
Mr. CARVELL It must be a payment for travelling expenses.
British Columbia-Mainland telegraph and telephone line-General repairs and improvements, $3,300.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This vote will probably have to be expended this year, but we intend to have a pretty careful investigation of the telegraph system of the Yukon made by competent authority, and various suggestions made with a view to effecting economies will he taken into consideration. In the first place, the line from Fort George to,

I think it is, Fort Fraser, a distance of about one hundred and fifty miles, is now paralleled by the Grand Trunk Pacific. It would seem unnecessary that there should be two telegraph lines running through a country with as little settlement and business in-it as that district has. Then from Fort Fraser to Atlin, a distance of over three hundred miles, I am told, there is only one place where there is any business whatever, I think, on the Skeena river, a small trading post with only one or two merchants, and it requires an enormous amount of money to keep up that line. It is not so much the pay of the operators-although they have to have special residences built and stations are needed every twenty miles with a rest station between them again- but in the spring-time, when the ice and snow come down the mountain sides the poles are carried away and need renewing practically nearly every year over a large part of the line. Surely there must be some way of getting rid of a large amount of this expenditure and placing these lines on a business basis, and therefore I am going to have the whole matter thoroughly investigated.
Progress reported.



Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I move, seconded by Mr. Oalder, that the name of Mr. H. J. Mackie, member for North Renfrew, be added to the Select Standing Committee on Agriculture.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
On the motion of Hon. Mr. Carvell the House .adjourned at 11.43 p.m.
Friday, April 26, 1918.