1918-04-24

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PENSIONS.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. N. W. ROWELL (President of the Council) presented the second report of the Select Special Committee appointed to consider and report upon the Pension Board and Pension Regulations for disabled and other soldiers; recommending that it he given power to print its proceedings from day to day.
On motion of Hon. Mr. Rowell, the report was concurred in.

Mr. SPEAKER:: I have the honour to inform the House that I have received notification of a vacancy having occurred in the representation of the electoral district of Glengarry and Stormont by. the decease of John McMartin, Esquire.
I have accordingly issued my warrant to the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery to make out a new writ of election foT the said electoral district.



*SELECT STANDING COMMITTEES.

Sir ROBERT BORDEN moved:: That the name of Mr. Nicholson (Algoma) be transferred from the Committee on Public Accounts to that of Railways, Canals and Telegraph Lines ; and that the name of Mr. Campbell be transferred from the Committee on Marine and Fisheries to that of Railways, Canals and Telegraph Lines.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Statement of amounts paid to newspapers, etc., on account of Victory Loan advertising.-Sir Robert Borden.
Copy of Order in Council P. C. 70/942- Allowance to chief examining officers at Canadian naval ports.-Hon. Mr. Ballan-tyne.
Order in Council P. C. 950, establishment of the rank of warrant writer in the R. N. C. V. R.-Hon. Mr. Ballantyne.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by asterisks).

Mr. PROULX:: 1.	Was there a gentleman employed by the Dominion Government at Ottawa, as an assistant to Mr. W. F. O'Connor in election work, named De Wolf (ot De Wolfe) ?
2.	If so, what salary did he draw?
3.	Is he still in the Government employ? If so, in what capacity, and at what salary?
4.	Has -this gentleman, previous to his coming to Ottawa, any technical training fitting him for these positions?
5.	What was his previous occupation?


Hon. Mr. BURRELL:: 1.	Yes, Harry C. DeWolf, as chief election clerk appointed and employed by the General Returning Officer pursuant to section 4 clause (b) of Part IV of the Dominion Elections Act.
2.	$250 per month.
3.	Yes, as -secretary of the Canada Registration Board, salary $300 per month.
4.	Yes, for many years chief clerk of an ocean transportation company, with control over a large administrative staff and accustomed to direct affairs of business.
5.	Answered by No. 4.


BOLO PASHA.
*Mr. MURPHY:: 1.	Is the Government aware that in a report from Perley Morse & Co., Accountants, of 61 Broadway, New York, to Merton E. Lewis, Attorney General of New York State, it was disclosed that Bolo Pasha, who was sentenced to death in Paris for treason, had transferred the sum of $170,063.03 from his account in the Royal Bank of Canada to J. P. Morgan & Co.?
2.	Has the Government taken any steps to investigate the dealings of the said Bolo Pasha with the said Bank, or with any person or persons in Canada?
3.	If not, will such steps be taken?


Hon. Mr. ROWELL:: No.


MILITARY SERVICE ARRANGEMENTS WITH ALLIED NATIONS.
Mr. FONTAINE:: 1.	Does the Government intend to enter into, any agreement with allied nations such as Italy and Belgium, in order to conscript their subjects coming under Class A of the Military Service Act, 1917, and living in this country?
2.	Does the Government intend to revise the medical examinations or exemptions of men of Class No. 1 before calling in for service Class-No. 2 under the Military Service Act, 1917?

3.	Does the Government intend to propose, at this session, an amendment to the Military Service Act, 1917, in order to bring under the law young men who have attained the age of twenty, sinoe the coming into force of the said Act?


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: 1.	Information as to arrangements with Allied nations has already been given to the House, and the hon. member is referred to that information.
2.	A board of medical review was appointed some weeks ago.
3.	The Order in Council which has already been approved by the House is an answer to this portion of the question.


REFRIGERATOR COMMISSION.
Mr. J. H. SINCLAIR:: 1.	Is there a commission known as the Refrigeration Commission? If so, who are the members of it, and who is chairman?
2.	What are the duties of this Commission?
3.	Who appointed them?


Hon. Mr. BURRELL:: The Government knows of no such commission.


DOUKHOBOR LANDS.
*Mr. MURPHY:: 1.	Has the Government or any Member thereof been interviewed by, or on behalf of, J. A. M. Patriche and) M. Kessicoff, regarding the sale of Doukhobor lands?
2.	If so, has any understanding or agreement been reached, what are the terms thereof, and at what price per acre are the land's to be sold?	.


Hon. Mr. MEIGHEN:: 1.	Dr. William Patrick and Mr. Cuzkoff interviewed the Minister of the Interior with regard to Doukhobor land matters and the purchase of such land.
2.	No decision was arrived at. The matter is under investigation.


JAMES STARRATT MARSHALL.
Mr. POWER:: 1.	Has there been since August, 1914, a .person named Jas. Starraitt Marshall, of Spa Springs, Annapolis County, in the Active Militia of Canada ?
2.	If not, when did he leave the service?
3.	If so, when did he join the service, and what has been his occupation?
4.	What amount has he reoeived during the period in which he was employed?
5.	Has the Government any information as to whether or not whilst in the service he carried on the work of laundrynmn either in his public or private capacity?
6.	If in the former capacity what extra pay did he receive?
Major-General MEWBURN: I have not been able ta locate this gentleman. If the hon.. member will give me a little further information, I shall look into the matter again.
Question stands.


GOVERNMENT ADVERTISING.
Mr. McCREA:: 1.	What is the total amount paid by the Government since 19111 to .the newspapers and other publications in Canada for advertising and other purposes, giving the amount for each year up to-and including 1917?
2.	What amount has been paid to each paper or publication each year separately?


Robert Laird Borden: The information asked for in this question in respeot of the years 1911 to 1916, both inclusive, will be found in the Auditor General's Report. The question, iso far as 1917 is concerned, will stand as an order for return.


ROSS RIFLE FACTORY.
Mr. BALDWIN:: 1.	At the time the Government took over the Ross Rifle Factory, had the British Government stated that they were in a position to manufacture all the Lee-Enfield rifles needed?
2.	If so, why did the Government then take over said factory?
3.	What are the names of the persons selected to make the appraisal or valuation?
4.	What experience had said appraisers in rifle factories or in rifle factory machinery values?
Major-General MEWBURN:
1.	The British Government, had, at the time of the taking over of the Rose Rifle factory, stated that it was in a position to supply Canadian troops with the necessary rifles.
2.	For reasons fully given toy the Government to Parliament at the time, February 2, 1917, and contained in .an Order in Council then presented.
3.	The following officers of the Canadian Appraisal Company, Ltd., St. John street, Montreal, were actually employed on the work of appraisal at Quebec: J. L. Moon, 120 Broadway, New York; F. S. Elson, 120 Broadway, New York; J. S. Bracken, Royal Bank Building, Toronto; F. W. Frickie, 155 Viileneuvie street, Montreal; W. W. Seymour, 162 Mansfield street, Montreal; F. Addyman, Bordeaux, Quebec; M. H. Engh, C. Thompson, H. Robinson, J. McCarthy, K. F. McLean, W. I. Thomas, G. R. Smith, all of 17 St. John street, Montreal.
4.	Sir Edward Kemp (then Minister of Militia and Defence) secured the services of the Canadian Appraisal Company owing to their knowledge and experience in appraisal work connected, with large manufacturing concerns (including munition factories) in Canada and the United States.


LETHBRIDGE POSTMASTERSHIP.
Mr. PROULX:: Referring to the vacant position of postmaster at Lethbridge, Alta.-

1.	In what newspapers is the Department inserting notices that this position is vacant?
2.	What is the procedure to toe followed in filling: the position?


Hon. Mr. DOHERTY:: ,
1.	The department is not advertising.
2.	The matter is being dealt with by the Civil Service Commissi on, which will follow its usual procedure.


PROHIBITION.
Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	Prior to the General Election of December last did the President of the Council have an interview or interviews with Rev. Dr. Chown. Rev. Dr. Shearer, Rev. Ben Spence and certain other gentlemen regarding the question of temperance or Dominion-wide prohibition?
2.	If so, did the President of the Council represent the Government at the said interview or interviews, and had he authority to act for the Government?
3.	Was any understanding or agreement arrived at between the parties present at the said interview or interviews?
4.	If so, was the said understanding or agreement to the effect that if the churches and organizations represented at the said interview or interviews would support the Union Government a measure of prohibition would be put in force after the election by the Union Government?
5.	If the foregoing was not the understanding or agreement arrived at, what arrangement was made between the parties present at the said interview or interviews?
6.	In any agreement or arrangement that was made did the President of the Council have the authority of the Government to enter into the same on behalf of the Government?
7.	Was any other arrangement or agreement entered into between the President of the Council and the said gentlemen respecting any other measure of moral or social reform?


Hon. Mr. ROWELL:: 1.	No.
2,	3, 4, 5, 6 and 7. Answered by question 1.


MR. J. H. LEWIS.
Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	Has one J. H. Lewis been employed in the Stores Branch of the Post Office Department?
2.	Was the said Lewis promoted or appointed to another position in the said Department within the last year?
3.	If so, What is his new position, and what are the duties and salary attached thereto?
4.	On whose recommendation was Mr. Lewis appointed to his new position, and what was his salary immediately prior to the change being made?
5.	How often has Mr. Lewis been in New York since receiving his new appointment, and what was his business there?
6.	Did Mr. Lewis meet a Dr. Harris in New York, and if so. did he transact any business with Dr. Harris?
7.	Was Mr. Lewis formerly the leader of the Regimental Band of the Governor General's Foot Guards? If so, was he then known as a German?
&S
8.	Within the last 18 years how often did Mr. Lewis secure leave of absence to visit Germany?


Hon. Mr. DOHERTY:: 1.	For the last 32 years.
2.	Yea, Mr. Lewis was promoted to a higher position.
3.	Purchasing Agent for the Postal Service of Canada. His duty is to take charge of all contracts for stores and supplies other than those obtained through the Government Printing Bureau and Stationery Office. Salary, $2,800.
4.	On the recommendation of the Deputy Postmaster General. $2,700.
5.	Mr. Lewis has not been in New York since taking over the duties of his position.
6.	Answered by No. 5.
7.	Mr. Lewis was leader of the regimental band of the Governor General's Foot Guards. Not to the department, nor has it any knowledge he was so known to any one. Mr. Lewis is a British subject. See Hansard, page 2944, July 4, 1917.
8.	Once, in 1902.
EXEMPTION TRIBUNALS; PAYMENTS.


Mr. BROUILLARD:: 1.	Have the judges who presided over the different Exemption Tribunal's in the County of Drummond and Anthabaska received payment of their fees?
2.	If not, why?
3.	At what diate can these officers expect to receive their fees?


Charles Joseph Doherty: With the exception of G. T. Prefontaine, Tribunal No. 84, the accounts of the above counties have been paid. Mr. Prefontaine's account will be passed for payment as soon as received from the registrar.


Mr. SEGUIN:: 1.	Does the Government know whether the judges, clerks and other officers of Exemption Tribunals in the County of L'Assomption and (Montcalm have yet been paid1?
2.	If not, why have these persons not been paid up to date?
3.	When can they hope to be paid for their services ?


Charles Joseph Doherty: All tribunal accounts for the above counties have been paid.


RENTAL OF REGISTRAR'S OFFICES.
Mr. DELISLE:: [DOT]
What is the rent paid by the Government, (a) for the Registrar's Office in the Drummond Building, Montreal, and (to) for the Registrar's Office in the Chateau Frontenac, Quebec?


Charles Joseph Doherty: (a) 7,480 square feet on rental at the rate of $1.10 per an-



num, which figures out approximately $685.65 per month; (b) This question was answered in Hansard of April 10, page 589.


CAPTAIN W. E. SCHNESTER.
*Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	When did Captain W. E. Schnester, of Belleville, receive his commission, and what were his miliitiary qualifications tiherefor?
2.	Was he ever overseas? If so, where and when, and how long- did he remain overseas?
3.	Did Captain Schnester ever take part in actual warfare? If so, was he wounded?
4.	Wlhat were his duties in Canada, and at what rate per day was he paid?
5.	How much was paid Captain Schnester up to April 20, 191>8?
6.	What is he doing1 now, and what is his present rate of pay?
7.	Is Captain Schnester to be sent overseas? If not, why not?
8.	Is Captain Schnester of German origrin, andi is he still wearing his uniform?
Major-General MEWBURN:	I think
there must be some mistake in the name, as we have been unable to find any record of it. If the correct name cannot be furnished, we will continue to make inquiries.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. LEMIEUX moved for:
A copy of the correspondence and all papers generally exchanged between the Canadian Government, the Imperial authorities and certain portions of His Majesty's Dominions with a view to give effect to the conclusions of the Dominion Royal Commission.
teir ROBERT BORDEN:	Some of the
correspondence is confidential and cannot be brought down. Otherwise I have no objection.
Motion agreed to.
UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS. Mr, SEGUIN:
1.	What are the names and addresses of the different deputy returning officers, enumerators, janitors and lessees of polls in the election of December 17, 1917, in the County of L'Assomp-tion and Montcalm?
2.	What amount was paid to each of the above parties for his services in said election?
3.	Are all these accounts paid?
4.	If not, which are yet unpaid, and why have they not been settled?
Air. J. E. ARMSTRONG:: 1.	What status have the Canadian recruits of the Royal Flying Corps in the Military affairs of Canada?
2.	In the case of permanent injury or death of Canadians in the Royal Flying Corps in the discharge of their duties, what provision has been made to pension their dependents?
3.	How many men came to Canada from England to establish training camps for the Royal Plying Corps; have any of these men returned to England? If so, how many have been replaced by Canadians?
4.	What comparative results were obtained in training cadets at the training camps around Toronto and the camps located in Texas?
5.	Did the Royal Flying Corps go to Texas and remain there at the expanse of, and on the request of the United States Government?
6.	Were the authorities of the Royal Flying Corps asked to give consideration to a location in British Columbia? If so, what was the nature of the request?
7.	Is it not a fact that the weather conditions in Texas proved very unfavourable for flying corps training purposes?
8.	What investigations of a technical character were made of the air conditions in Texas before selecting that place as a training ground for our airmen?

9.	What investigations were made as to the atmospherical and climatical conditions in British Columbia regarding the locating of an air squadron training camp in that province?
10.	Did the Imperial Munitions Board take option to lease a large area of land at Delta, near Vancouver, B.C., to establish winter training camps for the Canadian training squadrons of the Royal Flying Corps, and were tenders asked for materials, hangers, buildings, etc.? If so, why were these negotiations dropped?
11.	How many deaths in the Royal Flying Corps training camps in Texas resulted from atmospherical conditions, which are unfavourable to the successful training of aviators?
12.	Have any requests been made to the Canadian Government for assistance to the Royal Flying Corps either through appropriation or gifts of money for training machines? If so, what is the nature of these requests?
13.	Where are the records kept of the causes of injury or illness of Canadian cadets and mechanics of the Royal Flying Corps?
14.	Are the English-born drill sergeants exclusively employed in the training of Canadian cadets in the Royal Flying Corps in Canada?
15.	What efforts have been made by the Canadian Government or individuals or organizations to develop and assist the Flying Corps in Canada, and has the Government extended any assistance to these individuals or organizations?
16.	Has any part of the grant of $100 provided by Order in Council for each aviator trained in Canada to defray a part of the expense incurred in training been paid, or has any request for payment been made?


Mr. LEMIEUX:: For a copy of all correspondence and petitions passed between the Prime Minister and Civil Service Federation, concerning certain appointments made in the Post Office and Customs Departments since the 17th of December, 1917.


Rodolphe Lemieux: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams and other papers exchanged between the Food Controller and the Winnipeg Civic Authorities concerning cold storage conditions at Winnipeg.


Rodolphe Lemieux: For a copy of all papers concerning the Camp Borden expropriation.


Rodolphe Lemieux: For a return showing the details of certain totals being the estimated cost of street sewers, etc., given on figures 29 and 30 placed between pages 96-97 of Rural Planning and Development written by Thomas Adams, being a report published by the Commission of Conservation dated 1917. The said totals being $35,584, $26,736, $20,748 and $23,533.


Mr. CASGRAIN:: For a copy of all documents, correspondence, papers, court proceedings and reports by the Honourable Justice Duff in reference to the investigation made by Judge Duff in the mattter of Jules Gobeil, of Baie St. Paul, against Magistrate A. Simard, of the said place.



RELEASE OF ROMEO BRAULT.

Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: For a copy of all papers, documents and correspondence exchanged between the Minister
of Justice and officers of his department with one Romeo Brault, now detained at Burwash Farm, Ontario, or his representatives, relatives and attorneys, in order to obtain his release. Also a copy of all papers, documents and reports submitted to the Minister of Justice or his department from the military authorities in respect to the arrest and detention of said Romeo Brault.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I desire to point oat that by the well established practice of the House-the question has been up several times-it is not considered desirable that correspondence with regard to applications for the exercise of clemency under the Ticket-of-leave Act should be produced. Practically they are all considered to be of a confidential nature.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: Dropped.
Motion dropped.



UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS.

Mr. KENNEDY:: For a return giving a copy of the various proposals submitted to the Government for the erection of a steel plate rolling mill in Canada, and the supply of 250,000 tons of steel plates for shipbuilding purposes in Canada.


Mr. COPP:: For a copy of all letters, petitions and communications received by the Acting Postmaster General or any official of his Department in reference to the closing of the Post Office at LeBlancville, in the County of Westmorland, New Brunswick__


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: For a copy of all correspondence and documents exchanged between the Minister of Justice and his department and their representatives in Montreal in connection with obtaining the release on bail, and arranging bail and security for one, Charles, alias Ti-Noir Desjardins. Also a copy of all correspondence with the Minister of Justice and his department and their representatives in Montreal and elsewhere, and all other documents in connection with obtaining the release of and giving bail and security on behalf of the same man recently in Montreal.



ON THE ORDERS OF THE DAY.


Mr. J. E. FONTAINE (Hull) (transla. tion):: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are called, I wish to point out, for the consideration of the Prime Minister, an incident of a most serious nature which took place yesterday in Hull. It appears that some presumed members of the Federal Police have fired at a resident of that city, wounding him dangerously. I think it my duty, as representing that division, to call the Government's attention to the fact. I have met people who were witnesses of the

incident, and they assure me that the suspected deserter might have been easily arrested without any resort to firearms.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Order. It is quite proper the hon. member should address the question to the Government, but it is not in order that he should enter into any discussion.


Joseph-Éloi Fontaine: Then, I shall only ask the Government whether they intend to enquire into this matter and to dismiss those policemen who were surely over-zealous on that occasion. A peaceable city though it be, Hull will not tolerate any useless blood-shedding.


Robert Laird Borden: The matter to
which the hon. gentleman has called attention has not been reported to me as yet. No doubt the Minister of Justice will be able, either to-day or to-morrow, to make a statement with regard to it.


Charles Joseph Doherty: As soon as I
have complete data in this connection, I shall gladly communicate them to the House.
MILITARY SERVICE; LEAVE OF ABSENCE.
On the Orders of the Day.


Mr. J. A. ROBB (Huntingdon and Cha-teauguay):: I desire to draw the attention of the Government to the new regulations respecting the granting of leave of absence to men called up under the Military Service Act. Paragraph A of section 5 of Order in Council P.C. 919 makes certain provisions -for exemption. There is great unrest, as no doubt the Government knows, throughout the country regarding farm labour, and I want to ask the Government with regard to the case of an only son of a widowed mother, who perhaps is tilling a farm of a hundred acres, and having perhaps twenty or thirty cows. Is it the intention of the Government to take the boy away from the farm?


Robert Laird Borden: That particular subject to which the hon. gentleman has ^ directed attention has been discussed with the Minister of Militia and Defence, and we hope in a day or two to make an announcement on the subject.


Wilfrid Laurier: May I suggest in this connection that the Minister of Militia will confer a favour on everybody inside and outside the House if he will, on some occasion, when going into Supply, explain these regulations. I have them in my

possession, and I may say that I think they are very much involved. If we had a discussion perhaps we could elicit from the Government exactly what is meant by them.


Robert Laird Borden: There is no objection to that, if there be any difficulty about understanding the regulations. The particular matter to which the hon. member for Huntingdon (Mr. Robb) has directed attention is one that requires consideration. I am not certain at the moment if there is anything else in regard to these regulations which would require to be considered further by the Government. However, there is no harm in having the discussion and making the position perfectly plain.



MILITARY SERVICE-MEN MEDICALLY UNFIT.

Mr. JACQUES BUREAU (Three Rivers):: Are the men in class D exempted under medical certificates obliged to report under the new Order in Council which has been passed? My reason for asking is that I received a letter from a mother who has a sick son who is away from home, and she wants to know whether she has to call him back to report when the order is issued, or whether the exemption of the Medical Board would be sufficient to justify him in not reporting to the registrar.
Major-General MEWBURN: Under that Order in Council the registrar has to notify the men between the ages of 20 and 22 to report. Those notices are only to be -sent to the men who have been already examined and found in Category A. It was not the desire to call back the men already examined and -found in a lower category. The idea was not, if possible, to have these men come up for rehearing. We are anxious to get only the men who are medically fit. If later on the emergency increases, it m,ay be considered advisable to have another medical examination, but our intention is not to disturb any of those men who already hold a certificate as being medically unfit.



INDIAN ACT AMENDMENT.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. Arthur Meighen (Minister of the Interior) Bill No. 64, to amend the Indian Act, was read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. Mr. Doherty, Bill No. 65, to amend the Companies Act, was read a second time, and the House went into

committee on the Bill, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
On section 1-Quebec notarial copies to foe deemed originals; mortgage to include hypothec:
Mr. McMASTER:: I notice that the Bill says that a duly certified notarial copy of any instrument executed in the province of Quebec " and- preserved in the records of a notary public " shall foe deemed to be an original document. When a notary dies his records are in the keeping of another notary or at a prothonotary's office. Perhaps it might be well to say " and preserved in the the records of a notary public of the province of Quebec, whether at his office, or at the court." There is a possibility that has not been provided for. In the event of the death of a notary in our province his records are no longer kept at his office, or at his successor's office, but are transferred to the prothonotary's office.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I recognize the possibility of that happening, but it is not clear to me that the wording would not cover it. At all events there is no objection to making it absolutely clear. I think it would meet the hon. gentleman's suggestion if we amended the section. I therefore move that:
That section 1, subsection' 69M, be amended by striking out the word "notarial" in the first line thereof and by adding after the word "Quebec" in the fourth line of the said sub-section, the following words "or in the office of the prothonotary of the Superior Court in any district of the said province".
Would that meet it?


Andrew Ross McMaster: Yes.


Mr. MURPHY:: Is that the only place where they would be deposited?


Charles Joseph Doherty: That is the only place where they would be deposited that I am aware of. There are provisions for what happens if they are absolutely destroyed. Then it would be a question of using a copy from the registrar. But I do not think that we need look forward to that. That is the only place I know of and I think the honourable gentleman would agree that where it was an original document it would be kept on record. But, inasmuch as we are providing for a case where certification would be by the prothonotary and not by the notary, it might perhaps be well to omit the word " notarial " before the word " copy " so that it would read:
A duly certified copy of any deed, mortgage, hypothec or other authentic instrument executed
in the province of Quebec and preserved in the records of a notary public or . in the office of the prothonotary-
Because there could otherwise be no daily certified copy unless it was certified by the notary. We would have to provide for certification by the prothonotary.


Wilfrid Laurier: Might I suggest that the object would be attained if the section were to read as follows:
A duly certified notarial copy of any deed, mortgage, hypothec or other authentic instrument executed in the province of Quebec.
The moment you get a duly certified copy admitted in a court- of law, that is sufficient. Ilf the notary is still living his signature gives authenticity but if he is dead the party who has it on record gives it authenticity and that is quite enough.


Charles Joseph Doherty: While the usual notarial document is prepared en minute and filed in the office of the notary, it is not an unusual thing for notaries to prepare docu-mens en brevet. Then the original can be produced when it is needed. In dealing with these documents, it is usual for the original to be kept by the notary and produced when needed. :If you make that a sufficient copy of any notarial document, I would be inclined to think that it would not cover those documents which are prepared en brevet.
Section as amended agreed to.
/Bill reported.



NATURALIZATION ACT, 1914.


[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. 0. J. Doherty (Minister of Justice), Bill No. 66, to correct a clerical error in the French version of the Naturalization Act, 1914, was read the second time and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
On section 1:
The first seven lines of the French version of subsection one of section twelve of the Naturalisation Act, 1914, chapter forty-four of the statutes of 1914, are repealed and the following are substituted therefor:-
12. Lorsqu'une personne, Cant sujet britannique, cesse de l'§tre par une declaration d'ex-traneite ou autrement, tout enfant mineur de cette personne cesse en m6me temps d'etre sujet britannique, sauf dans le cas oil tel enfant ne devient pas, en vertu de la loi d'un autre pays, par le fait que telle personne a cesse d'etre sujet britannique, naturalise dans cet autre pays."
Wilfrid Laurier: Will the minister read the Act as it is now?


Charles Joseph Doherty: Perhaps I had better read the English version, and after-

wards the French version, because it is a matter of having the translation correct. The English version reads:
Where a person being a British subject ceases to be a British subject, whether by declaration of alienage or otherwise, every child of that person, being a minor, shall thereupon cease to be a British subjectand this is the portion where, in the French version, the error occurs:
-unless such child, on that person ceasing to be a British subject, does not become by the law of any other country naturalized in that country.
The French version as it now stands produces the opposite effect, as the translators [DOT] agree, and it reads:
Lorsqu'une personne etant sujet britannique cesse d'etre sujet britannique soit par le fait d'une declaration d'extran^ite Soit autrement chaque enfant mineur de cette personne cesse iimiif;dial ement d'etre sujet britannique & moins que ledit enfant, par le fait que ladite personne cesse d'Stre sujet britannique, ne devienne de par la loi d'un autre pays, sujet naturalist de ce pays.
Section agreed to and Bill reported.
INSPECTION AND SALE ACT AMENDMENT.	*
On motion of Sir George Foster, Bill No. 20, to amend the Inspection and Sale Act (Hay and Straw Inspection), was read the second time and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
On section I-Hay grades Eastern Provinces.


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: This section reenacts the grades as th-ey at present exist in the eastern provinces, with one or two very slight Changes which have been recommended by the Boards of Trade and by our inspector. The Bill as introduced will not be pressed through in its present form. A11 we propose to do is to establish grades of hay for the western provinces where there are now no legal grades, to re-arrange the present grades in the eastern provinces, and to make necessary provision for the inspection of hay. After carefully looking into the matter, we have come to the conclusion that it would not be advisable at present to provide for the compulsory inspection of hay throughout the Dominion. It is desirable, however, that legal grades should be established, so that people who wish to buy and sell by grades may do so-although they will not be debarred from buying and selling as usual.


Wilfrid Laurier: There will be no compulsory inspection?


George Green Foster: No. In the West during the last eight or ten years more or less dissatisfaction, confusion and loss have prevailed in such centres as Winnipeg and Vancouver, where a great deal of hay is bought and sold, because of there being no standard and no inspection. This difficulty will be remedied by the enactment of legal grades and the necessary provision for inspection. The present section is already embodied in existing legislation, with two exceptions: in paragraphs (d) and (f) the word " sound " has been substituted for " well curred


Jacques Bureau: Why has that been done?


George Green Foster: That is a technical matter with regard to which we accepted the best expert advice we could get.	.


Jacques Bureau: The minister says that this classification is made largely to accommodate the western provinces.


George Green Foster: No, this classification is entirely for the eastern provinces. In a subsequent section we take up the grades for the western provinces.


Jacques Bureau: The grades for Manitoba and the western provinces generally are different from those of the East?


George Green Foster: Yes.


Mr. DAVIS:: Should not paragraph (f) of this section provide that No. 1 clover mixed shall be at least one-half clover? If you provide that No. 1 clover mixed shall be at least one-half timothy, the grade might come under the class described in paragraph (c)-timothy with not more than one-third of clover.


George Green Foster: I think it is probably safe to take the grades as they have been fixed by those who are chiefly interested in them. I am not an authority on-grades of hay, timothy or clover;
4 p.m. my hon. friend may be. These grades* have been approved by our inspectors in Quebec and Toronto and by the Boards of Trade, to whom the proposed enactment was submitted, and included in the membership of which, I suppose, are hay dealers and purchasers. If any hon. gentlemen considers that better grades could be established I shall be very glad to take his suggestions into consideration.


Mr. LANCTOT:: By whom has this legislation been suggested-by the hay dealers, or the consumers? The provisions regarding the grading of hay would seem to be in ac-

cordance with the regulations of the American Hay Association. I have no fault to find with the grades which have been established, but I notice further on in the Bill that all persons who press hay for sale are obliged to have a license.


George Green Foster: If my hon. friend will be content to discuss the Bill section *by section, I think wre shall get along better.


Mr. LANOTOT:: I note that provisions have been inserted with regard to damaged and heated hay. That kind of hay should not be put on the market at all, if the reputation of our farmers in the markets of United States and Europe is to be maintained. In recent years quite a large number of cars of hay have been heated in New York, Chicago and all over New England. I realize that hay pressed during a severe winter might reach New York during the hot season, and would be very materially changed a3 a result. In order to prevent these conditions, I think the law should go further and say that if hay is pressed during a very severe winter those who press the hay should be the losers. But if you attach a tag, as the law to-day requires, and put a name on it, the proper name should be. not that of the importer, but of the holder of the property on which the hay was pressed, so that you would have a man who was responsible. I shall take opportunity to discuss the matter again. Will the minister be good enough to tell me who asked for this legislation?


George Green Foster: This legislation was asked for and placed upon the Statute Book about fifteen years ago, and it has been upon the Statute Book since that time. My hon. friend may have heard me say that there have been repeated demands from the western provinces for grades for hay. The legislation is brought down at this time for the sake of adding that provision to the Act as it at present stands. In order to have all the sections in the Inspection and Sale Act refer to hay and straw together, the simple device has been taken of repealing the sections as they stand and enacting all those sections with regard to hay and straw together, so that you have the Act complete in itself and in short compass, instead of one portion of it being one Act and another portion of it as an amendment. Under this system of enactment all the legislation in regard 10 hay and straw will be together and complete.


Roch Lanctôt: I understand that in the old law there was no provision in regard to the western provinces.


George Green Foster: No.


Mr. KAY:: Is it the intention to compel the inspection of all hay?


George Green Foster: I stated just a little while ago that was not compulsory. When we come to the section iin reference to that, I shall explain the matter more fully.


Mr. SEXSMITH:: Where and -how will this inspection be made as to the percentage of clover? Will -it be made before the hay is pressed or after? It is very important to know when the inspection has to be made. If you say that a certain percentage of timothy and a certain percentage of clover are allowed, if you are going to make the inspection after the hay is pressed, I do not understand how you will be able to make a proper inspection. Are you going -to inspect it in the bam? It seems to be absurd to classify the hay if you do not make arrangements for determining what the -percentages are.


George Green Foster: My hon. friend will see that, under the old Act, the arrangements as to grades, and inspection upon those grades, have been proceeding in the Eastern provinces for the last fifteen or twenty years. There has been no compulsion that hay should or should not be inspected; but if an owner of hay sells his hay subject to grade and -inspection, and if the purchaser buys it subject to that same grade and inspection, then there is provided' an inspector who can -inspect that hay. That hay will be inspected as arranged for or agreed upon between the seller and the buyer. It may be inspected in the barn and the certificate given as it is being baled, or it may be inspected after it has been baled. Quantities of -hay are now inspected after being baled. It may be a little more difficult, Put the -inspector is a man who understands his work, and who is able to give his opinion as to the grade o-f the hay either in bale or loo-se.


John Albert Sexsmith: According to that, a man has to depend upon his own judgment as to what grade his -hay is or ask for an inspector -after it -is pressed. If he has a quantity of hay to press, and he thinks that it will grade No. 1, but he is not perfectly certain, he has to run the risk of being liable to a penalty or have an inspector come and inspect the hay.


George Green Foster: Or have the inspector inspect the hay -when it is brought into the market as it sometimes is, loose.


John Albert Sexsmith: I was thinking of
pressed hay. I do not think the inspection will have much to do with loose hay, because, so far as loose hay is concerned, the buyer and the seller usually come together and the buyer sees what he is getting. I do not see how you are going to inspect properly the baled hay. Clause (b) reads:
No. 1 Timothy shall he timothy with not more than one-eighth of clover or other tame grasses mixed, of good colour, sound and well cured ;
Who is going to be the judge as to the percentages? Then clause (c) reads:
No. 2 Timothy shall be timothy with not more than one-third of clover or other tame grasses mixed, of good colour, sound and well cured ;
It seems to me this puts the whole question of pressing and marketing hay in a state of chaos, unless you are going to have inspectors who will be willing and ready to go out at the beck and call of every farmer throughout the Dominion. Who is going to pay the expense of this inspection? It is all very well to be setting grades on hay, but the number of grades of hay may be legion. In this section we have eleven grades mentioned. Who is to determine these grades? The farmer is running ,the risk of having a penalty imposed upon him if he should press two or three tons of hay before the inspector arrives.


George Green Foster: I do not see that it is putting the farmer under a penalty. My hon. friend has been living under this inspection law for the last fifteen or twenty years. This is the law now. He will still be under the same law, whether he objects to the passage of this Bill or not. It is up to the purchaser and the seller, who wish to buy and sell respectively on proper grades, to get the inspection. It is up to the inspector to make the inspection as required. The payment is by fee of so much per ton. At the present time the fee is twenty cents per ton. Under this Bill I am taking the power to have the fee for inspection made by order of !the Governor in Council, because sometimes twenty-five cents per ton would be too high, and sometimes ten cents would be too low. The expense is largely due to the locality and to the quality of hay which is inspected in a locality. Most of this inspection, I imagine, is made by traders and dealers who are buying hay to sell upon the market, either according to grade or other-

wise. If according to grade, they will take the best means in their power to have a thorough inspection made at the most convenient place, and the inspector will be paid for his inspection'by fee according to the quantity of hay he inspects. A man who buys hay from1 a seller who is selling by grade will buy, say, No. 1, or No. 2, or No. 3, according to the inspector's certificate. If it has the inspector's certificate, the buyer, if he can rely upon the inspector, has his guarantee that he is buying the kind of hay he has agreed to buy, and so far as the inspection is concerned, his guarantor is the inspector. My hon. friend is not running up against anything new. We are simply making the application a little wider.


John Albert Sexsmith: Then I do not see any necessity for the Bill.


George Green Foster: We are extending the provisions to the Prairie Provinces so that they may have the same advantages the eastern provinces have had up to the present time. This Clause has 'been repealed and is being re-enacted so that we may have all the clauses with respect to hay and straw in compact form.


John Albert Sexsmith: It follows, then, that
the Act has not been very satisfactory in the past.


George Green Foster: That does not
follow at all.


Mr. MOLLOY:: Would not the hay be
sold like we sell our wheat in the West? In my opinion the proper way to inspect the hay would be both before pressing and after, although I can understand there are very many difficulties in the way. First of all it would be expensive; a greater number of inspectors would be required. The grower of the hay should be allowed to ask for an inspection as well as the dealer in hay.


George Green Foster: Certainly. -


Fred Langdon Davis: Reverting to the point I raised a few moments ago, paragraph (e) provides that No. 1 Timothy Clover Mixed shall be timothy and clover mixed with at least one-half timothy and the remainder good clover, of good colour and sound. Now that might toe 99 per cent timothy. With any admixture of timothy it will pass as No. 1 Clover Mixed. Furthermore, a mixture of timothy and clover could be classified'under No-. 1, No. 2 or No. 3 Timothy, or No. 1 Clover Mixed. It seems to me that where the word "timothy" occurs the sec-

end time in .paragraph (f) the -word clover was meant.


Sir GEORGE  POSTER@: x will look into that, and if there was a mistake in the printing I will have it corrected.


John Albert Sexsmith: Who provides the inspection ?


Sir GEORGE  POSTER@: I am not making any change in that respect; the inspectors will be provided under the Act as at present. For instance, in Montreal or any other large city' the Board of Trade appoints a committee to examine candidates for inspectors, who, after certification, are appointed by Order in Council. The inspectors are paid by fees. Where there is no Board of Trade the Governor in Council has the power to name any district and give that district authority to have an inspection and an inspector. The inspection is not compulsory,-hut it enables those who wish to buy and sell according to grade and under inspection to do- so.


Sir SAM HUGHES:: Is there any appeal from the inspector in case he has not graded the hay properly?


George Green Foster: There is no appeal under the Act, but there are methods of reinspection.


Samuel Hughes: It might be possible for an inspector to compel a man selling hay to stand in with him.


George Green Foster: He probably
would not do that often.


Samuel Hughes: Not after he was
caught. I might point out a little more clearly what I had in mind. When I was in South Africa a ship arrived in port with an officer of the Department of Agriculture on board and a very fine cargo of Canadian hay. The hay had been inspected- I do not say officially-but when part of it was unloaded it was found to contain stone and sand and things of that kind. A similar thing occurred during the present war and I presume that in both these cases the hay was sold subject to inspection. Suppose a dealer sells hay to a purchaser as grade No-. I when it is not grade No. 1. What redress has the purchaser?


George Green Foster: He has'the redress that any one has against a person who has committed a fraud on him-.


Samuel Hughes: Suppose it was not a very bad case of fraud', and that the inspector had simply graded it as No. 1 when it was really No. 2?


George Green Foster: If the loss was not sufficiently serious to justify the purchaser in taking proceedings, he would not take proceedings.


Samuel Hughes: But if he had suffered a serious loss, who would he proceed against? The inspector or the seller?


George Green Foster: Where stones
and things like that were put in hay, a conviction could be secured against the person who committed the fraud. But if it is simply a mistake in the grading of the hay, if the inspector does not give the grade called for-


Samuel Hughes: But suppose he does give that grade, and the farmer finds the inspector was wrong. That occurs very often.


George Green Foster: That is a matter that can be met by reinspection.


John Albert Sexsmith: Suppose a farmer
presses a carload of hay and decides in his own mind what grade it is1, and does not have it inspected. It is shipped to Toronto and then found not up to standard.


George Green Foster: If the farmer
decides on the grade in his own mind, that is not offidial at all. To make it official, the inspector has to affix his certificate, and if he does not affix that certificate to the car that was shipped to Toronto we will say that hay is not of the grade the farmer thought it was. It is not the idea -which the farmer or the producer has with respect to his product, but the judgment of the inspector that counts, and the grade is based upon his inspection.


John Albert Sexsmith: Suppose a man sells
*a hundred tons of hay that has been inspected and he is compelled to pile it up at the station exposed to all kinds of weather, before he can get delivery. In a week or ten days the hay may depreciate in value, but yet it would be sold as	No. 1 or No.	2 grade, according as the inspector determined.
I was passing by a station the other day and saw a hundred tons of pressed hay piled up in the open, and the rain had been falling on it for a week or ten days. That hay had the inspector's certificate on it as Glass 1 Timothy. After remaining a week in the open air, and being shipped to its destination, it would be very much depreciated in value, but still it must be sold as Class 1 Timothy.


George Green Foster: Let us follow that out. In the first place, the farmer has not

lost anything. He has sold his hay as of a certain grade and got his money. The dealer has piled up the hay, as the hon. gentleman stated. He lets, it stay out there until it begins to rot, and then it is forwarded to the man to whom it has been sold, or to the market in which it has been sold. When it reaehes there it is rotten, and under grade. The man to whom this has been forwarded as grade so and so can, under the Inspection Act, apply for a reinspection.


John Albert Sexsmith: Is there a provision in the law for that?


George Green Foster: Yes. You can call for reinspection before the properly constituted authorities.


John Albert Sexsmith: Where it has been once inspected, it might be piled up and allowed to become rotten, and, of course, would depreciate in value a good deal.


George Green Foster: The dealer takes a great risk in that respect.


John Albert Sexsmith: He .sends it out in small lots and many people buy it. I am talking in the interests of the consumer. I know people who bought hay this year as of a certain grade, and after opening up the package they found it was practically of no use, although the outside looked all right.


George Green Foster: If the consumer looks at that hay, and sees that it is not No. 1 Timothy, he can apply for an inspection, and the inspector will report as to whether the hay has been damaged.


John Albert Sexsmith: Under what clause?


George Green Foster: Under the general Act you can ask for an inspection. '


John Albert Sexsmith: That would be asking for a re-inepection, because it had already been inspected and a certificate put on it. In transit it may become damaged, but it must be sold according to the grade given it on inspection.


George Green Foster: There are dozens of things that may be sold under inspection, and this is on an exact parallel with other goods. If damage takes place in transit, the damage falls on that person, under the contract, in whose charge the goods are during transit, and if it is the dealer he must protect himself by seeing his goods are kept in good condition when forwarded.


Mr. LEDUC:: The minister said there
should not be any appeal from the judgment of the inspector. I may say I have 
had an experience in this inspection. I think there should be an appeal from .the decision of any of the inspectors who are inspecting the goods of any kind. A farmer has No. I hay on his farm, and it is supposed to be graduated when- it is sold, but supposing, the farmer is dealing with a man not absolutely scrupulous, that man may say, that when the hay reached its destination it was really No. 2 although classed as No. 1." If there is no appeal from that judgment, in what position would the farmer be? I desire to point out an example in the case of meat inspection. I know for a fact that a few years ago, one , of the inspectors appointed by the Federal Government in Montreal inspected a load of hogs at the east end1 abattoir. Twenty-five hogs were confiscated. We asked to be allowed to appeal, but the inspector said there could be no appeal. We took ia veterinary surgeon, made an inspection, and found only three hogs should have been confiscated. If there were no appeal from that judgment, the dealer or the purchaser would be the loser in the matter. At any rate we came to Ottawa and asked for justice, and we got justice from the Minister of Agriculture. This inspector has been dismissed from his job because he did not know what he was doing. I think an appeal should be allowed from the judgment of any inspector, in order to ascertain whether he performs his duties properly. If I were to appoint an inspector I should make provision for an appeal from his judgment in the inspection of any goods whatever.


Mr. NESBITT:: I presume the minister does not intend to interfere with the sale of pressed hay as carried on in the market.


George Green Foster: Not in any way. It is not interfered with now, and I am not *interfering with it.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: It is proposed to make every person who presses hay take out a license.


George Green Foster: I made the statement that I did not intend to press that portion of the Bill.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Taking the illustration of *my hon. friend (Mr. Sexsmith), the buyer brings in a quantity of hay, and on account of lack of transportation, or lack of accommodation on the railways, he has to pile it up at the station, from which he expects to ship it. If it deteriorated, it iwould be a great loss to the dealer and not through any fault of his. The Bill does not provide for anything of that kind.


George Green Foster: No.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: There is no clause protecting him against any loss he should not he forced to suffer.


George Green Foster: I do not see that he should not be forced to pay it. If you contract to deliver to me either hay, wheat or anything else of a certain grade or quality, you are bound to deliver that to me, and if anything takes place betjveen where you sell it and the place where you deliver it which diminishes the quality of the article, you have to bear the loss. There cannot be any provision by which we can indemnify either you or your carrier who is under contract with you, if he fails to .protect the goods in transit. You have your remedy against the carrier if you have a contract with him. You certainly could not make the buyer indemnify you for loss resulting from your own carelessness or the [DOT]carelessness of the carrier.


Mr. MORPHY:: Do I understand the
minister to say he is not going to enforce the clauses in relation to the issuance of licenses?


George Green Foster: No.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: I have had some experience in regard to this matter. Last fall men travelled through the riding which I have the honour to represent, buying hay and making contracts to press it. A very large number of farmers contracted that their hay was to be pressed at a certain date, and these men made the contract, paid a sum of money and bound the farmers to sell them a certain number of tons. They ran riot over a large territory, making these contracts to purchase, take delivery and press the hay at so much a ton. When the time came for delivery, these men could not be found. The farmer, in good faith, had sold his hay to men who introduced themselves by name from the lower part of the province, in the neighbourhood of the county of Essex. A letter was written to them and attempts were made to get them by telephone but the result was that the hay was left upon the farmers' hands in dozens and dozens of cases. As a protection to the farming community against unfair dealing of that kind a license should be required. I think the Government should take control of men who are going to deal in that way so that the Government itself would know to whom they were issuing licenses. Irresponsible persons, rather than pay the license fee, would remain out of the business and the
farmers' rights and interests would be reasonably protected. I am sorry to hear the minister say that he is going to drop that provision. What harm could be done by insisting that a license shall be taken out by a man who wants to deal in that way? It would be a protection against fraud if such persons were licensed. Not only should these men be licensed but I think a clause should be put in the Act penalizing a man for failure to carry out his contracts in so far as that can be done. I appreciate the difficulty. It might be a matter of contract, but where this Government is regulating the sale, pressing and moving of hay, and the dealings of persons with the farming community, I think there is a duty cast upon them to see what kind of men are allowed to run riot at any time of the year through the country. A license imposed upon these people would improve the personnel and make them more careful in their dealings with farmers.
Mr. NESBITT': A man who presses hay is usually like a man who operates a thresher; he simply presses the hay. He has no interest in the hay but he gets so much a ton for pressing it. That is why I object to that sort of a man being forced to take out a license before he can be allowed to do his ordinary day's work. Why should we penalize him? If the hay is not up to standard the farmer should have to see that it is up to standard and not the poor devil who presses it.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: The hon. gentleman has quite misunderstood me. These men undertook to provide for the whole thing; they were to supply the presses and do the pressing and everything.


Mr. EDWARDS:: If you undertake to keep track of every man who bargains with a farmer for his hay, pays him a small amount on the hay with the intention of pressing it later on and then never shows up, I suppose you might . carry that a little farther and penalize the man who pays $5 down upon a horse but never intends to buy and never comes back to complete the purchase. I presume the whole object of this is to protect the public against fraud, but the fewer regulations you have in regard to doing business the better. Regulations are only advisable when they are required to protect the public, and I cannot see where there is any protection to the public in licensing a man to press hay. Therefore, I must take an opposite view from that which my hon. friend has taken. I am very glad that that clause has been dropped out
1084'

of the Bill, because I do not think that the forcing of a man to take out -a license to press hay is going to protect either the man who presses the hay or the man who buys it. Inspection may protect them. The man who is engaged in buying hay in large quantities visits the various farms in the country at a time when he can form a judgment of the crop which has been produced on that or the other farm. He sees a pretty fine crop of hay. The farmer has, perhaps, fifty or one hundred tons. He forms his judgment of the class or quality of the crop and he says to the farmer: " I will give you so much per ton for your hay and you press it," or " I will give you so much per ton and I will get a man to press it." That is the way the bargain is usually made. At a convenient time the presser comes round. It may be some man who lives right in the neighbourhood who has a press at his disposal. With regard to inspecting hay, I do- not know how you aTe going to do that .satisfactorily when the hay is already pressed into the bales. I do not know how you are going to form an accurate idea of the grade of hay throughout the 'bale. Must the inspector be on hand when the hay is being pressed? If you require that it strikes me that it! would be utterly impossible unless you flood the country with hay inspectors. There is another matter I want to ask the minister about, and that comes under section 340f.


The CHAIRMAN:: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. gentleman, but I must rule that the discussion for the last twenty minutes has been absolutely out of order. We have been considering this Bill clause by clause, but hon. members are anticipating by discussing a later clause. If the committee will allow us to adopt the clause under discussion we can proceed with some regularity.


William Cameron Edwards: May I ask what clause that is?


Georges Henri Boivin: 340.


William Cameron Edwards: I was under the impression that the discussion had taken a general course in regard to the Bill as a whole, therefore I referred to that particular clause. However, I will wait until that clause is reached.
On section 340a-standard weights for hay and straw in Quebec:


George Green Foster: This is exactly the same clause as is in the law now. It was repealed and it is mow re-enacted for 
the purpose, as I explained before, of getting these clauses all together.


William Cameron Edwards: Does this only apply to one province?


George Green Foster: It only applies to Quebec.


William Cameron Edwards: Why is that?


Mr. DENIS:: This applies only to the province of Quebec. It reproduces section 342 of the old Act, and we are perfectly satisfied with it in Quebec.


George Green Foster: My hon. friend from Fromtenac asks why this only applies to the province of Quebec. It has only been asked for in that province. Very little straw is inspected or sold under inspection. This formed a portion of the old Act.
On subsection 340b-Hay grades Western Provinces and Northwest Territories-Cultivated grasses, wild grasses, no grade rejected:


George Green Foster: I want to make an explanation as to how these grades have been arrived at. There have been, as I have said, no legal grades in the western provinces, including British Columbia, but since 1905 there has been more or less agitation to have grades established and inspectors made available, so that if people wished to purchase and sell upon grade there should be the legal grade, and inspection provided therefor. These grades were arrived at in this way: First by correspondence by the department with people interested in the West. After that had been carried on for several years and more or less information had been gathered, an officer of my department made a tour through the West, going as far as British Columbia, and took up the matter with the Department of Agriculture in each province. Information was thus gained personally, and an opportunity afforded the officer of the department to discuss the matter with those who probably understood most about it in these different provinces. Communications were also had with boards of trade, with people in the hay trade, and so on. To make a long story short, the grades established by the Bill have been agreed upon and approved by all the provinces through their Departments of ' Agriculture. Personally, I am no authority on grades of hay, more especially of western hay, and we have to arrive at decisions as best we can. I repeat that there is to be no compulsion in the matter. We are merely making it possible that the pur-

chaser or the contractor shall have the opportunity of protecting himself in all arrangements which they have made between themselves for the sale and purchase of hay, that there shall he a grade established upon which decisions shall be based, and that there shall be an inspector with authority to say to what grade the hay offerer! for sale belongs.


Mr. COCKSHUTT:: I do not kn.iw
whether the minister has done it intentionally or not, but I call hie attention to the fact that one of the most common grasses grown in Ontario, and more or less in the Dominion, has been omitted from the list of grades in all the provinces, namely, what is known as Canadian blue grass. I do. not see it mentioned in the Bill, and possibly the minister is classing it as a non-commercial hay. It is, however, a very valuable hay and thousands of tons are grown in Ontario. It is a grass that grows on sod that has never been ploughed, and it is to be found in all river bottoms, and so on. It grows from year to year without any re-seeding, and is to be found on all the lawns in our Canadian cities. The Kentucky blue grass, grown farther south, sometimes fetches a -higher price on the market, tout the Canadian blue grass is very good fodder for cattle, horses or sheep.


George Green Foster: Is it a tame
grass ?


William Foster Cockshutt: It is very tame. You can walk right up to it and it will not run away.


George Green Foster: If it is tame
grass it is provided for in the Bill.


William Foster Cockshutt: It is as tame as can be, but I do not think it is enumerated in any of the grades established by the Bill, and I was wondering if the minister has purposely omitted it, and classed it as a non-meTchantable hay, or whether it has escaped his attention, as there are thousands of tons, of blue grass grown in the province of Ontario, at any rate, and I think more or less throughout Canada.


George Green Foster: I am familiar
with blue grass, and can recognize it when I see it, tout I am entirely guiltless of any intention of depreciating this grass by not naming it in the Bill. However, the Bill has been prepared by those who are supposed to be authorities on the subject, and I would venture a leap at the explanation that the hon. gentleman may find it if he looks more carefully amongst tame
grasses. It may be that blue grass comes in that category, as my hon. friend has assured me it is perfectly tame.


William Foster Cockshutt: I have looked through the Bill and have failed to find Canadian blue grass enumerated.


Mr. HENDERS:: I would ask the hon.
gentleman to define the distinction between Kentucky blue grass and Canadian blue grass and red top?


William Foster Cockshutt: It is a very different grass as I understand it.


Mr. BOYCE:: Did you ever see it grown upon an extra good farm?


William Foster Cockshutt: Not upon an extra
good farm, but I have seen it grown on the best land in a good many parts of Ontario, and there is no doubt it is a very good hay when it is properly cured. Very large quantities of it are grown in our part of the province.


George Green Foster: I have a very
great regard for my hon. friend from Brantford, who is a particular friend of mine, but I advise him not to get into any controversy with these farmers around him as to what blue joint grass it.


William Foster Cockshutt: I do some farming
myself and have grown blue grass, and I have had it foisted on me for timothy. A quantity of blue grass was shipped to a dealer who refused it on the ground that it was not timothy. I took it over and my man fed it to the cattle and sheep during the winter without waste and with as good results as if the stock had been fed with timothy. This blue grass was grown in our part of Ontario.


Richard Coe Henders: Blue-joint, redtop and
Kentucky blue grass are in the same classification, and in our province are considered as good as timothy for feed purposes.


George Green Foster: Are they cousins, brothers or sisters?
'Mr. COCKSHUTT:	But the seeds are
different; if a dealer tries to sell redtop seeds for blue grass seeds, he will get into trouble. Blue grass is certainly one oj the most merchantable of all seeds; it is used on 'awns in Ottawa and in other cities throughout Canada, and the minister should not rule it out as being unmerchantable hay.


Mr. BLAKE:: Why does the provision
for the grading of hay in the West differ from the provisions in respect to the East?


George Green Foster: The qualities
are -different in the tw-o sections of the country.
{Mr. SEXSMITH:	Blue grass, as I understand it, is tame grass. There is as [DOT]much difference between blue-joint and blue grass as there is between day and night. Blue-joint, as we have known it in Ontario, grows in the very lowest marshes, and there is a great deal of difference between the analysis made at Guelph of the blue-joint and that made of timothy and other kinds of hay. Blue-joint will not grow on anything but marshy ground. Red-top and bluetop are somewhat similar, but the varieties differ greatly. 'The kind the member for Brantford (Mr. Cockshutt) spoke about comes under the heading of tame grass; a great deal of it is raised in the vicinity of Toronto and it is considered to be a valuable hay. It does not grow so long as timothy grass and weighs very much heavier to the bulk, but for seed purposes it dtoes- not come far behind timothy. It is being pTodu-ced and sold in large quantities in Ontario.


Mr. STACEY:: I would commend to the minister the advisability of amending paragraph III to provide that it -shall not be lawful, under the provisions of this Act, to offer for sale, (a) no grade 5 p.m. hay; (b) rejected hay. The sale of such hay as is classified in this Bill as " no grade," or " rejected," is a means of spreading noxious weeds. Moreover, when it is damp and unfit for storing, it is of no use for feeding purposes. I submit that such hay as is described in paragraph	(b)- containing more than
twenty-five per cent of foxtail or spear grass, hay heated or containing must or mould or otherwise damaged-should not be sold on the market. What the producer gets for this hay is " found money." It may be worth a little as manure, but it is absolutely of no use as nutriment for livestock and should not be placed on the market. We have sufficient grades in paragraphs I and II to meet all the requirements of the producer, and he should not be encouraged to put on the market such stuff as ds described in III.


Mr. HAY:: To forbid the sale of no grade bay at a time when feed is scarce would work a hardship on stock men and others. " No grade" hay means hay that is damp or unfit for storage; ibut this hay may be very good for feeding stock. Rejected hay also may be used to advantage at times when feed is scarce. This is an important

Bill, particularly as it relates to some portions of Manitoba, and we should be careful before we adopt rules and regulations. Will inspectors be appointed throughout the Dominion?


George Green Foster: The provisions of the Bill makes the appointment of inspectors possible in districts where they are needed or asked for. The inspectors are to be appointed by the Governor in Council on examination and certification by Boards of Trade, who appoint committees qualified to conduct such examinations.


Thomas Hay: Are the inspectors to be paid salaries?


George Green Foster: No.


Thomas Hay: Who will pay the fees?


George Green Foster: The fees will be paid by the person-dealer, farmer or buyeT -who asks for the inspection. In most cases I suppose the fees will be paid by dealers who are anxious to get grades and, on the basis of those grades, to make contracts with purchasers.


Thomas Hay: Will the inspectors have the power to compel farmers to have their hay graded?


George Green Foster: Not at all. The farmer can sell just as he pleases.


Mr. JOSEPH READ:: Replying to the hon. gentleman (Mr. 'Stacey), who spoke about making it impossible to sell hay o-f no grade, I say that would be a terrible mistake. We in the East are perfectly satisfied with the grades that the minister has given us, -and this is none too soon for the passage of this legislation. Hay that is- classified as " of no grade," or " rejected," may be worth a -good deal for certain things, such as for bedding, or for the feeding of sheep, as- they pick out the good -amongst it. It would be a very great hardship if a clause were inserted in the Bill making it impossible to sell rejected hay. As long as -such hay is properly represented as rejected- hay, there is no- reason why it should not be sold. The principle of the Bill is, I understand, that the minister ,is making grades-, so that when a man buys hay, he buys it by grade and he knows what he is getting.


George Green Foster: He buys by grade if he wishes to do so. I might, perhaps, shorten discussion a little by replying to my hon. friend (Mr. Stacey). The purpose of this Bill is to facilitate purchases and sales along certain lines by the arrangement of grades and inspection thereon. The Bill

d-oes not pretend to say that a man .shall not sell, and I do not think it would be pertinent to append to this Bill a prohibition against the sale of any commodity that the farmer might have to sell. I do not think we could go that far.


Frank Bainard Stacey: I thank the minister for his explanation. Would it not be possible then to omit hay of " no grade " altogether?


George Green Foster: If my hon. friend will take any System of grades and inspection, take grain for instance, he will find that anything which is raised and which is in any way serviceable, should, from the point of view of economy, be put to some use. The grading by the inspector is to single out and put its proper classification, SO' far as nomenclature can do it, upon all grain that is raised. Then the purchaser can protect himself. If he says: " For purposes that are useful to me, I should like to have that rejected hay or grain," it is pretty hard to say to him: you shall not buy it; or to say to the seller: you shall not sell it. Of course, if the hay or grain is poisonous or deleterious, that is a different matter, and it would come under a different kind of legislation *from hay or grain legislation.


James Alexander Robb: I understood the minister
to say that inspectors would be appointed from time to time and for different places as the demand was made for them. This opens the door for an additional army of civil servants travelling about the country.


George Green Foster: 
James Alexander Robb: The minister has placed the matter in a different light from the impression he created, at least in my mind, in his answer to a question from his own side of the House. I was not objecting to the way in which the men are to be appointed. What I objected to was the policy, as I inferred from the minister's previous answer, that inspectors *would be appointed wherever there tvas a demand for them. I can understand that in a large city, like Montreal or Toronto, inspectors are desirable, but I inferred from the minister's previous answer that inspectors might be sent out to inspect the hay in the fields. I think the minister left that impression on the committee.


George Green Foster: I did not mean to.


James Alexander Robb: In my judgment, the provisions of section 340, as to standard grades and weights and the manner in which hay shall be pressed, are very desirable, and they have been asked for for a number of years by men in that business. This objection has been raised by them from time to time: We go about buying hay; we know good hay; we go into a man's barn, look at the hay and decide whether it is No. 1 or No. 2 and buy it on the basis of what our judgment tells us the hay grades; we arrange for the man to press it, and then the hay is shipped to New England points. Perhaps such a dealer is buying from forty or fifty or

sixty different men. Eventually a complaint comes back from the New England purchaser that so^pe of the hay was stuffed; that it was not good all the way through. The dealer has no way of tracing that hay back to the farmer from whom it was purchased. All the protection necessary for the hay dealer, so far as export is concerned, is a provision by which the hay can be traced back to the man who pressed it.


George Boyce: I am in favour of this Bill. I have been raising and selling hay for the past thirty or forty years and I have never had any trouble yet, but I certainly agree there is need for inspection. Without inspection I would not he sure that the hay I was shipping to Montreal or Toronto would meet with the requirements. There is a great difference in hay, even in cull hay taken from our best meadows. We shall always have this low grade hay, partly on account of weather conditions. One hon. gentleman has referred to red top. Now our whole idea in farming in the section where I live is good seed, good cultivation, and haying and harvesting under the very best conditions, andi where these requirements are met there will be very little trouble. I do not think it would be wise to cut out this low grade hay altogether because it is better than -straw to enable a man to run over the winter. I repeat, I think inspection is a good idea, and 1 am therefore in favour of the Bill.


Jean-Joseph Denis: This is a new law with regard to straw.


George Green Foster: It is a new grade for straw.
Mr, DENIS: No. 1 straw is not mentioned. Is there no such thing?


George Green Foster: I have never been able to find it. That is the very question I put to my officers, and they say there is no No. 1 straw.


Roch Lanctôt: I would point out that white straw is often worth 50 cents more than straw damaged by rain on the field. If the straw is to be used for bedding it makes no difference what colour it it.


George Green Foster: Referring to clause 340D, I am informed that number fourteen standard gauge annealed steel wire is the very lowest quality that can safely be used for baling, but as this clause stands no better quality could be used, and therefore I beg to move that after the word "be" in line 12 the wordls "of a strength and quality not below" be inserted.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
John Albert Sexsmith: I understood the minister to say that it was only in the large centres where there was a Board of Trade that inspectors were appointed. In that case many districts would be unable to get an inspection at all, and the inspection would have to take place at the point of delivery in the large centres.


George Green Foster: What I intended to say was that where there was no Board of Trade the Governor in Council could name a district and similar provisions could be made for the examination and appointment of an inspector. But even where that is not done, an individual who thinks it is of moment to have an inspection, can send for the nearest inspector and have him come out. There are inspectors now in Toronto, Montreal and Kingston.


John Albert Sexsmith: I suppose it is the
intention to dismiss all the inspectors at present engaged.


George Green Foster: We have no such intention. Why should we dismiss them?


John Albert Sexsmith: I thought you would
have them properly appointed under the new regulations.


George Green Foster: They have been working under the very same regulations that we are enacting this afternoon.


John Albert Sexsmith: They were appointed
by the Board of Trade.


Jean-Joseph Denis: Paragraph 340D says:
AH inspecting- officers shall where necessary enter in. their books their detailed reasons for grading any particular bale or bales of hay or straw.
Now, I am relying upon these words "where necessary." It has been said already, if I understand aright, that there will be no appeal from the judgment of the inspector.


George Green Foster: I qualified that statement afterwards by saying that any person not satisfied with the inspection might ask for and get reinspection, but there is no higher appeal board.


Jean-Joseph Denis: Is it understood, if the second inspection does not agree with the first, there will be nothing else to do but go to a court of justice? What will be the value of the testimony of these inspectors before a court of law? For instance, suppose that hay has been inspected the first time, and one of the parties interested is not satisfied with the judgment of the inspector, and goes before a court, what

will be the preference of the judge? Will the testimony of the inspector be considered as better than the testimony of other witnesses who are not inspectors, or is the inspector to be regarded as an ordinary witness? The Act does not provide for this, but I think it should not be overlooked.


George Green Foster: I have two
answers to the question. In the first place, this system of inspection has been used more largely in Toronto and Montreal districts and portions of Quebec than anywhere else in Canada. So far as the department knows it has worked satisfactorily. Some differences like that may have occurred, but they have been settled in some way or another. At any rate, they have not formed the subject of complaints to the department, and it has not been considered necessary to establish a higher court or tribunal to deal with the cases. That is probably the best answer I can give to my hon. friend, because it is the answer of experience. As to what evidence the court would most rely upon, I would not like to venture an opinion. The court itself would decide. I am quite sure, however, that no practical difficulties have arisen as yet to justify the formation of a court of appeal. Of course a difference might arise-probably most of the differences would arise-in	this way, that since the
first inspection something had taken place' which altered the grade of the product appreciably, so that it was not as good as before. The first inspector called in to make a reinspeotion would see whether or not the deterioration had taken place, and the purchaser would have his remedy against the contractor who agreed to deliver .so much of such and such a grade. That would! have to be delivered, or the purchaser would have his remedy.


Jean-Joseph Denis: We cannot expect that these inspectors' testimony and opinion will be sustained by a court of justice, in opposition to all other witnesses. Consequently I start with the proposition that the inspector is merely a very competent non-partisan witness, and, on account of hie position, his testimony should have great weight; but, on the other hand, it should not 'be regarded as conclusive. I find objection to the words "where necessary," because it leaves the matter altogether in the hands of the inspector. When is the inspector going to enter in his 'book his detailed reasons for grading any particular hay, and
when is he not going to enter in his book those reasons? This would be left entirely in the hands of the inspector, and he would have an absolute discretion. I am now dealing with the case of an honest inspector and I will come to the dishonest inspector later if necessary. An honest inspector who,is negligent thinks it is not necessary to take note.s when he inspects the hay. Then comes the trial before a court of justice. The Government inspector, upon whom the seller or the dealer, or the party requiring him, will depend, appears in court and when called upon to give his reasons will say: "I have taken no notes- -and have made no entry in my books, because I did not deem it necessary, and according to the law I was not obliged to." I say the dealer who has been employing this inspector is not receiving sufficient protection, and, moreover, I always object to a provision like this in an Act, because it leaves too much to the discretion of the inspector. Why not say: "Mr. Inspector, you are paid so much a ton to inspect the hay; you will have, books, and you will enter in the books the reasons why you are grading that hay No. 1, No. 2, or No. 3." It seems to me that would be of service to the dealers generally.
-Sir GEORGE FOSTER:	I quite understand the point that my hon. friend makes. The discretion is entirely with the inspector in this case. When he thinks it is necessary he has to give reasons in detailed form why he classed the product as a certain grade. The inspector has a quantity of hay to inspect, and inspects it, and everything is clear. He has not the least doubt in his mind as to what grade it is, and he puts that grade on it, and gives no further thought to it. Then he has to deal with other quantities, of hay, and has to bestow a great deal of care on the matter, and is a little bit puzzled as to just what grade he should make it to protect himself. Where there is a doubt in his mind the inspector will put down the detailed reasons why he placed such and such a grade on that hay. That provision was in the preceding Act, and is in all our Inspection Acts. The object is firstly to protect the man himself, in ease he is at all in doubt as to what grade he should mark on the hay, and secondly to prevent a lot of unnecessary trouble in putting down details as to grades- as to which he has no doubt after his inspection. On the other hand, it may be too much to ask that the inspector shall always m-ark down the details of his examination. If there



is no doubt about the grade he will not have to do very much writing. It the inspection is somewhat involved', he will have to do a little more writing in marking down the details, and it is fair that he should be asked to give his reasons for deciding on a certain grade. I discussed that with the officers of the department and they gave me as the reason about ,vhat I have given to my hon. friend.


Jean-Joseph Denis: I would like to suggest that these words " where necessary " should be struck out, but, of course, I bow to the minister if he thinks better not to do it.


George Green Foster: I will take a note of my hon. friend's suggestion and before the Bill goes through I will look into it a little more.


Jean-Joseph Denis: The word " detailed " might also be struck out. If we strike out " where necessary " and also " detailed " it will read:
All inspecting officers shall enter in their books their reasons for grading any particular bale or bales of hay or straw.
That would not give the inspector much trouble. It would be done only to a limited extent, and a man could write the few lines necessary to state his reasons in two or thiee minutes. It now takes .about two years in Montreal before you can proceed *with a case in court. An inspector may be inspecting thousands of tons of hay, and if he is called in a case two years afterwards his record will be available and it will enable him to give much better testimony. I might take this opportunity of giving to the committee my humble opinion with regard to paragraph 6 of this section, which reads as follows:
All hay or straw facing doorway must be representative of the contents of the whole car.
If I understand that aright, it means that, the car being opened, the inspector will look at the hay which faces the opening of the car and it is required that this shall be representative of the quality of all the hay that is. in the car.


George Green Foster: That is evidently the meaning, but this does not preclude at the same time, the inspector from satisfying himself that it is representative of what is in the car.


Jean-Joseph Denis: It seems to be imperative, unless I am construing the sentence wrongly, because it says " must be representative."


George Green Foster: That is more in the way of a caution to the loader of the hay that he shall not impose, or try to impose, upon the inspector and the ultimate buyer by putting in the doorway the top layer, so to speak, or the best of the hay. It shall be fairly representative of all. This is not an essential clause hut it :s a reminder to the packer or loader of the hay, and at the same time the seller of it, that he shall not attempt to impose upon the inspector or the prospective buyer by misrepresenting in the doorway the quality of the general cargo.


Mr. DENTS:: This clause seems to me to be imperative. If it is not imperative I would humbly suggest to the minister that he change the form of the clause because, as I read it, it is imperative. It says "must he representative." When the inspector inspects the hay he will form his judgment of the quality on. the hay facing the doorway and I do not think anybody can ask him to go farther than that. When the inspector is brought before a court of justice to give evidence as to the quality of the hay he inspected, he will say: "According to law I have examined all the hay facing the doorway and I have not gone any farther." Then, supposing other witnesses come forward and say: "We have examined the hay facing the doorway and we have also examined the whole car" and it happens that for some particular reason the hay facing the doorway is not exactly of the same quality, would the evidence of these other witnesses be accepted being contrary to the testimony of the inspector, because the law says that what is going to be the proof is the hay facing the doorway and nothing else? As the clause now reads the inspection of the hay at the doorway would he 'the proof because the hay at the doorway would be the only part of the car that could be examined. My objections to this provision are twofold. In the first place, there is an injustice to the seller because, for some reason or other, during transportation, thei hay at the doorway may suffer damage through no fault of the seller and it would be an injustice to him if this construction were given to the clause. On the other hand, it might be an injustice to the buyer because, if the seller wanted to act fraudulently, he might place at the doorway hay of a better quality than that in the rest of the car. The minister has explained that this paragraph must not be taken too strictly but I would humbly suggest a different wording.


Mr. J. R. WILSON:: With reference to the clause -which the hon. gentleman (Mr. Denis) has just taken exception to, and which is clause 340d, as I would read it, the purpose is to give the inspector the privilege of grading one particular bale, or ten particular bales, or whatever the number may be in a shipment, differently from the whole consignment. If he does grade a few particular bales differently from the , majority of bales in the shipment, he must then, of necessity, enter the grading and the reasons in a hook. If it is found \ to be necessary to grade a particular number of bales of hay differently-from the rest of the shipment he must make a record and give the reasons why he has placed a different grade on a number of bales from that which has been placed on the whole shipment. That i6 the way I would read that section.


Joseph Read: The section really has no
reference to the inspector. Is it really not the man who loads the hay that it has reference to? What has the inspector to do with loading a car of hay? Evidently the object of the departmental officers who have advised the minister is to prevent fraud in the selling of a carload of hay by taking a man down and showing him the car when the door is opened. When the door of the car is- opened the hay that is in sight is supposed to represent the contents of the car. The inspector has nothing to do with that. The only thing I see wrong in connection with the subsection is that it is put in the wrong section. It should be in a separate section altogether. I do not think it has anything to do with the question of inspection.


Mr. GERVAIS (translation):: Mr. Chairman, I believe, that on the whole, clause 340d fairly meets the views of those engaged in the hay business. Paragraph 7 which reads as follows:
All inspecting officers shall where necessary enter in their hooks their detailed reasons for grading any particular bale or bales of hay or straw.
might be completed by adding to it that a statement of the grounds on which the finding is based shall be given to the purchaser. It is evident that the legislator's intention w.as to have the inspector state in writing his reasons for rejecting one or more bales of hay ot straw. Why should not the inspector be obliged to give the purchaser a statement of his reasons for grading such hay or straw as he has done- That could be effected by adding to this clause: "and
694	'
a copy of his finding shall be delivered to the purchaser." The latter would retain that copy, which would be preferable, I think, to the present system under which! the inspector enters in a hook the reasons for his grading, whereas this book may be destroyed or lost and there would then be no trace left of his decision or of the grounds thereof. I believe clause 6 is correct. It is a fact that pressed hay is rather sold on its appearance; it would be foolish to think of buyers cutting the bales open to see whether the grade is the same inside as it is on the-outside. I therefore repeat that clause 6 is right in providing that the bales of hay or straw in the rows facing the doorway of the car must be representative of the contents of the whole car. I also believe that clause 1 might he adopted if it provided that in cases where bales of hay or straw of inferior grade are found in the shipment, such bales should be marked in a special manner, set aside by the inspector, and the reasons for which the inspector had thus marked those bales should he entered in his book and a copy of the said finding delivered to the buyer. I think that if this clause were modified in that sense, it would be a sufficient protection and that it might pass as a whole.


Georges Henri Boivin: Does the hon. member offer an amendment?


Joseph-Charles-Théodore Gervais: No, it is simply as a matter of suggestion.


Georges Henri Boivin: Then it is not in the form of an *amendment?


Joseph-Charles-Théodore Gervais: No, a suggestion, merely.


James Alexander Robb: The hon. member for Joliette (Mr. Denis) bases his objection to paragraph 6 of subsection 340D, which reads:
All hay or straw facing doorway must be representative of the contents of the whole oar.
The minister himself will see that that provision is of no great importance, because hay is nut inspected by a man opening the doors and taking a look at it. The inspector goes and cuts the bales open in different parts of the car, and that is the procedure upon which he bases his inspection. Therefore, the appearance of a carload as it presents itself when a man opens the door has nothing at all to do with the inspection of it.


George Green Foster: If the paragraph is so worded as to give the impression that a glance through the doorway will afford a fair idea of the whole of the contents of the

car so that the inspector, when he visits the oar, shall merely inspect what is facing the doorway, and then consider that he has done his duty, 'that officer may be misled. I quite see that an inspection is not a proper one unless the inspector gets at the average quality of the contents of the car-


James Alexander Robb: -Unless he cuts the bales open.


George Green Foster: And he cannot determine that by looking through the doorway and making up his mind by what he sees from there. I cannot see what good purpose that paragraph represents; it does not seem to me that it strengthens the Act in any way, but that it may have the effect of causing a less rigid and thorough inspection than would otherwise take place. When inspecting a car of grain, that grain must be examined in different parts of the car, and the same thing should be done in the case of a car of hay. One cannot make up one's mind as to the quality of a oar of grain or hay simply from looking at what faces the doorway. I also sympathize a good deal with what my hon. friend has stated with reference to the first clause. I do not see -any particular reason why, after the inspector makes an inspection, he shall not enter into his books shortly the reasons why he adopts a particular grade. It may be unnecessary when theTe is no room for doubt, but on the other hand if this re-quirment is made a part of the Act it will probably make the inspector more careful in his inspection, and in the grade which he adopts, if a record is required' at the time, which record may afterwards come * up in the decision of any trouble that arises. I have therefore no objection to cutting out the words "where necessary," or "detailed," although I would rather maintain the word " detailed " because any reason is not much of a reason unless it is- detailed. I would, therefore, be agreeable to cutting out the words first mentioned, and also the whole of paragraph 6, unless some one who knows more about ,the subject than I do thinks that this would be detrimental to the efficient operation of the Act. Accordingly I move that subsection 3400 be further amended by striking out in the first line thereof the words, " where necessary " and the last two lines of the said subsection.
Subsection as amended agreed to.
On subsection 340E-License required for pressing hay and straw for sale.
<Sir GEORGE FOSTER:	I do not know
whether it is worth while spending very

much time about this. For the- proper protection of the consumer-and after all that is what we are looking for, because the seller will look after himself-there is no doubt that a thorough system of license and inspection, added to grading, is the proper thing to- do. But when one comes to look into the matter, one appreciates the difficulties that have to be overcome. For example, inspectors will be needed wherever hay is pressed, and a good many of them. The licensing requirement is not a difficult matter and for statistical purposes would be very beneficial, nor is the license fee important. But if you make inspection .compulsory and require the appointment of inspectors wherever hay pressing is done, then you will add very largely I think to the costs of the exchanges or the transfers in this respect. Therefore, I think this year we might go only so far as to arrange the grades and let the Act run for a while in that respeot. Perhaps later when we have experience of this law we may get a step further towards that ideal position where the consumer should be absolutely protected from frauds, in the shape of bad [DOT]weights and bad grades.
Susbection 340E stricken from the Bill.
, On subsection 340F

Bales to be tagged showing weight, etc.


Sir GEORGE  POSTER@: I move that this subsection also be struck out.


James Alexander Robb: Now the minister is taking
away the whole real object of the Bill-


George Green Foster: In one respect.


James Alexander Robb: Because, as I pointed out,
a man may be shipping five or ten cars of hay that he has bought on his own judgment, to different people in the New .England states, and he may receive a complaint that five of these cars were plugged. .This is the only method he has of tracing that plugged hay .and finding out who loaded it.


George Green Foster: My hon. friend sees the other difficulty, does he not?


James Alexander Robb: What is the other difficulty?


George Green Foster: 
Jean-Joseph Denis: I think eoone plan should be provided by which the name of the person who pressed or shipped the hay might be readily ascertained. Perhaps this could be accomplished by providing that the label should bear the name of the seller or of the presser rather than the number of his licence. In any case, I suggest that some scheme be adopted undeT which a buyer of hay in the United States or * elsewhere may be able to say: this particular bale of hay was bought from so-and-so. If this could be brought about, justice would be done both to seller and to buyer.
At six o'clock the committee took recese.
After Recess.
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Jean-Joseph Denis: There is a great deal of good in this Bill, and, in fact, we have accepted the principle of it. I am afraid, if section 340F is struck out altogether, we shall, to a great extent, lose the benefit of the Bill. I therefore move that section 340F be replaced by the following:
3 4 OF. Every seller of hay or straw in Canada shall affix to every hale of hay or straw sold or offered for sale a tag, having thereon, plainly written and legible, the name of the seller and the weight of the bale.
This amendment does not go as far as the section drafted, but it retains the provision that on each hale of hay or straw there shall be the name of the man from whom it comes and the weight of the bale.


Matthew Robert Blake: If these two clauses are struck out, the usefulness of the Bill ceases. The manner of issuing the license is very important, and: the man who packs the hay should he entrusted with the power of grading it. He is there all the time the hay is being pressed, and he can very easily grade it satisfactorily. If he attempts to put the grade down too low, the farmer will attend to that. If there should be added- to this Bill a section penalizing the packer if he gives too high a grade, any difficulty in this section would be overcome. If the name of the packer or his license number, and the name of the man who produced the hay and sold it, were on the tag, there would he something Dy which to trace the hay should! there be any packing of straw or other objectionable
material. These two sections 340E and 340F, are the crux of the Bill, and the usefulness of the measure depends upon their retention according to the suggested amendment.


Joseph-Charles-Théodore Gervais: Mr. Chairman, I fully concur in the amendment proposed by my colleague, the hon. member for Joliett-e (Mr. Denis). I look upon this clause as being so essential, that the' Bill* to my mind, would be absolutely groundless without it, and the provision embodied in the Revised Statutes of 1906 would be clear enough by having added to it this particular clause -with respect to identification.
The traders complain, and rightly so, of the fact that the hay cannot be identified after it is pressed, sold in big lots, and exported, and I know pertinently that the packers, confident that the stuff mixed up in the pressed hay will not be discovered, will go to the length of mixing with it a variety of things, such as husk, waste taken, from the barn-floor or under the press, and so on. The best means to protect the trader, the good hay producer and the good hay seller, is to have an identification mark.
The owner of the pressed hay is a responsible man as a general rule, and the trader may Teach him; so may the middleman, the big exporter ias well as the trader.
Should this clause not carry-the hon. the Minister of Trade and Commerce seemed inclined to withdraw clause 340F a moment ago-I think the Bill will be groundless and we might as well withdraw it and be left with the provisions of 1906.
I come from a county where large quantities of hay are produced, and I may say that most of the leading hay producers in my county would have their hay identified and their packing recognized. They are not afraid that their goods be identified, but they want them labelled some way or other, and at the lowest possible cost.
I say, again, that I fully approve of the amendment submitted by my honourable colleague from Joliette, and I believe that this clause should be added to the Bill ot that the Bill itself should be withdrawn in its entirety.
Mr. MAYRiAND (Maskdnonge) (translation) :	Mr. Chairman, I fully concur in
all the remarks presented by the honourable member for Be-rthier and by the honourable member for Joliett-e, save one. The preparation, especially under the present circumstances, olf an identification mark, is somewhat costly, and we are in war time. Why not have the hay labelled as in the
10EU

past, by means of a pasteboard ticket introduced under the bales, and which is not lost at the time the goods are shipped?
Why should we oblige the farmers to pay twenty-five cents on every ton of pressed hay to give them exactly what they had before? Moreover, the offering of these tags will entail a certain amount of work, at whatever season of the year it is done. It seems to me that we should retain the label we had before, giving the name of the producer selling the hay and heartily endorse the remarks just made by the hon. member for Berthier.


Jean-Joseph Denis: My hon. friend says that
the tag should not be expensive and I have drafted my amendment to ensure that. I have used the word "tag" which, I understand, means any label. If the word "tag" means anything other than label, it might be replaced by the word "label".


George Green Foster: I can quite see the necessity of retaining those two sections, if the Bill is to be worked out completely on the basis upon which it was framed.
Unless we have compulsory inspection I do not see what good the proposed amendment would do. It is proposed to license every one whb presses hay for sale in Canada or for export. There are a great many people pressing hay-a great many farmers, and a great many professional piessers each serving his district. What protection would it afford simply to have the name of the person who pressed the hay and the weight of the hay? There would be no grading at all. It is impossible for everyone who presses hay to be his own judge of the grade of his hay, or otherwise we should have a different grade for every person who presses, and consequently not having any official grade, there would be no authoritative standard, and you would have no redress. If John Jones, a farmer, presses his hay and affixes his name to it, that does not fix the grade; it simply indicates his idea of the grade it ought to be; that is really not a system of grading at all. It would not suffice in any court of law or be an authoritative grade on which purchase and sale could take place. So, unless you have an inspector to do the grading you get no redress by going so far. When you know that the hay you buy in Montreal or anywhere else was pressed in some district in Quebec, all you have is the empty satisfaction of knowing that although the hay is not up to standard it was pressed by such and such a person.


Mr.   DENIIS@: It is the name of the owner, not of the presser, that I propose to have on the bale?	[DOT]


George Green Foster: That does not make it any better. Suppose we license every man who presses a single ton of hay, and make him put his name on it and the weight. Then some one suggests that he should also state the grade. What grade? The owner may think it is No. 1 or No. 2 or No. 3 or No. 4; that is simply his personal opinion. The last person to determine the grade is the man who owns the product to be sold. What kind of grades would you have in the grain trade if you allowed every grain producer to fix his own grade? It would not be official at all; it would be the interested party who fixed the grade, and the marking would be of no value whatever as part of a plan of grading. The mere fact of knowing that a load of hay that did not come up to your expectations was pressed in a certain district by a certain man gives you no redress. But if this House will stand by ia system which will license every man who presses hay and make him affix his name and the weight and the grade- the grade to be fixed by a competent inspector-you will have a system which will protect the consumer, but which I think would be very burdensome to carry out all over the country. That is the reason why I abandoned for this year my project of having every hay pres-ser licensed and of having every ton of hay tagged, not only with the name of the presser, but with the weight and the grade as well. By fixing a system of grades, with a chance for inspection all through the country, we are taking a step forward from the position -we are in to-day. If I could take the whole step, and do it without overburdening the 'trade, I would gladly do it; but I .am doubtful if I should be justified in trying to go that far this year. I therefore .ask the House to take this one step in advance and by-and-by w-e can take another step.


James Alexander Robb: The minister brings in a Bill to regulate the inspection and control of hay and straw, the Bill gets its second reading and goes into committee, and now the minister is asking us to strike out the only clause in the Bill which will protect the shipper of hay and enable him to trace back to the presser any irregularities. He built up a case of John Jones, a farmer pressing hay, and. asked what good it would be to know who pressed that hay if it was found unsatisfactory when it got to market. But unless you have such a provision as the

minister himself put into the Bill in the first place, how are you going to trace back any two or three cars that may be unsatisfactory in a shipment of five or ten cars?
If the minister is going to strike out this provision, we may as well drop the whole Bill.


Roch Lanctôt: II understand the minister to say that grading by the farmers would be of no use either to the dealer or to the farmer himself, and I quite agree, but we all know that hay is being graded at the present time. I have been in the trade for the last twenty-five years. I buy hay from farmers'-generally so much for the whole lot-and I sell it again to others according to the grade. If we know the name of the man who pressed hay that should not have been pressed1, or who mixed hay that should not have been mixed that certainly would be an advantage, especially at this time when many hay dealers in Canada are suffering on account of the heating of the hay. If the information I received from a man who has war contracts' with the Department of Agriculture is correct, many cars of hay were rejected at the wharf on account of heating. You can easily see how this would happen when it took 'trains five' or six weeks to go from Canada to New York during the recent bad snow storms. If no precautions are taken by the farmers the hay is bound to arrive in bad condition, and in order to prevent that we ask that the name of the farmer who presses^ the hay be affixed to his product. If he is caught once he will take care not -to be caught again.


Matthew Robert Blake: I desire to propose an
amendment to section 340E of 'the Act which will read as follows:
-said presser to grade said hay or straw, and (or failing to do so he liable on conviction to a fine of not more than twenty dollars.
I am satisfied that will meet the case and will prevent any danger of improper grading. I think the man who sees the hay when it is being pressed, if he is accustomed to handling hay, will be as capable of judging the quality of the hay as any inspector.


Georges Henri Boivin: I cannot submit the
amendment of the hon. gentleman to the House. He proposes to amend section 340E of the Act. That section was struck out by the unanimous consent of the committee this afternoon.


Matthew Robert Blake: Then make my amendment to section 340F.


Georges Henri Boivin: I am quite willing to propose the amendment in that shape, but there is an amendment before the committee, and when that is disposed of we will take up the amendment of the hon. gentleman.


Matthew Robert Blake: It might be put as an
amendment to the amendment.


Georges Henri Boivin: Not in committee.


Mr. MAYRAND (Maskinonge) (Translation) :: Mr. Chairman, I entirely concur in
the statements of the hon. member from Laprairie-Napierville (Mr. Lanctot). He *told the House that an enormous quantity of hay is likely to rot.
By the way, the House will perhaps allow me to point out the usual conditions of the hay trade in our country places. The hay dealers vie with each other as to who will buy the crop beforehand, caring little for the quality. They have no worse enemies than themselves and they are to a large extent responsible for the poor hay which is marketed.
I must congratulate the hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce, and before long. I am sure, that trade will show a great improvement and the quality of the hay which will be offered for sale will show a marked improvement. On the other hand, there is no denying the fact that hay dealers must mend their ways, cease competing with each other and look after the quality of the hay which they put on the market.


Jean-Joseph Denis: I wish to close this debate with a few more explanations. When I proposed my amendment I meant that the owner of the hay should be required to put his name on the bale, and I feel that this method will 'afford means of redress in case the hay is not in proper condition When pressed. Some of my colleagues have mentioned the fact that it is just possible, not only possible but it often happens- and as a lawyer I have had cases of this kind more than once-that hay will be pressed in bad condition. If the hay is pressed in cold weather, say in the moiith of November or December, it will not rot at the time it is pressed, but it will freeze and may keep for two or three months in good condition and present a fairly good appearence until the next spring, as the hay traders know; but when that hay is transported to the United States or some southern country, and during transit the temperature becomes milder, then the hay will heat and rot. I have known of several cases where hay was sent by a dealer in the province of


Quebec to the United States, say in January, and it was found, two or three weeks afterwards to be spoiled, because it had been pressed in bad condition. The experts who open up the bales can find out if the hay has deteriorated on account of being pressed in ibadl order, or because: of exposure to' snow or rain, while the hay was in transit. If it be found that a man shipped hay which had a latent defect, then the man who receives the hay can get redress. Consequently, I think, if the amendment were carried, it would enable .a man who buys hay at any time during the year to ship that hay anywhere, and if it turned out that the hay had been pressed in bad condition, he would have the right to go to the man from whom he /bought it and say:	" I bought your hay, and paid
for it, and I am entitled to get my money back, because the hay you sold me had in itself a latent defect; which gives rue a recourse at law against you." I propose the amendment with the object of preventing the clause as first drafted passing the House. I believe, right or wrong, that compulsory inspection of hay, with a license system, would be altogether too complicated and costly. Consequently, I am proposing this as a half-way measure, and if it be not accepted, I will withdraw it, and consent that the clause be struck out altogether.


George Green Foster: I quite appreciate my bon. friend's idea. I take his statement to mean that if this is to be coupled with a compulsory inspection it would be so burdensome he would rather the clause should not pass. That is true. I cannot follow my hon. friend in his reasoning with reference to redress,, or ground for redress, he would have under the circumstances mentioned. The farmer raises the bay and presses it. My hon. friend says that if it is pressed in certain times it is liable to ha/ve a. concealed or latent defect, which, months after, would become apparent under certain circumstances. If my hon. friend wishes to propose an efficacious remedy he must prescribe by law the conditions under which, and the time at which, the farmer must press the hay, and must forbid the pressing of it at any other time, (because if the hay is not pressed at the right time the fault in it is hidden, to' /break out afterwards and destroy the quality of the hay. My hon. friend is looking after the interests of the dealer. I think the dealer is quite able to "look after himself. The dealer buys the hay, and the farmer himself cannot fix 
a grade upon the hay. The dealer has to protect himself by having the hay inspected, and if the hay inspects up to certain grades the dealer knows what he is buying. But what protection has he against the farmer in regard to. whom there is no law prescribing the exact time and. conditions under which he shall press the hay? What redress has he against the farmer who does not give any grade because he is not able to make a grade, and/ who consequently enters into no contract as to the quality of the hay he is selling, hut simply presses his hay and sells it? The dealer can protect himself by saying to' the farmer: "I will have that hay inspected first. If it goes up to a certain grade I will give you so much." That would be a protection to the dealer.
I do not see how you have any recourse against the farmer who is not obligated as to the conditions under which he shall press his hay and has no power to fix the grade under which he contracts to sell that hay. Consequently, I do not see that there is any redress in that respect. It is for the dealer to see that the hay he buys, perhaps to sell again, shall be inspected and that he shall get the grade for which he pays. After he buys the hay, it is for the seller to see that he delivers that same kind .and quality of hay to the man to whom he contracts to sell. If I could see that it adds to the guarantee or certainty of the dealer getting what he supposed he was getting I would think that it would be well to have this amendment, but that does not appear to me to be the case. To put it briefly again, it is simply this: Here is your consumer whom we are first to protect. The consumer contracts to buy hay of a certain grade at a certain price. The" dealer in hay, the seller, contracts to give him that hay of a certain grade at a certain price. The dealer has to go somewhere to get his bay. He goes to the farmer to see if he can get the grade he wants. He can get the grade he wants by having the inspector inspect the hay and fix the grade. Then the bargain is struck.
I would like to meet my hon. friend if possible, but I cannot see how the amendment is going to affect the question in the way in which he thinks it will. There are only two things bo be done. One is to make the system of grades and inspection compulsory all the way through, and the other is to fix your grades, appoint your inspectors and have the hay graded by the inspectors, and then the dealer and purchaser alike can protect themselves. The farmer does not contract to sell any parti-

cular grade of hay. There is his hay, and he asks a price according to the grade, the dealer gets an inspection, the grade ' is established and fixed, and consequently the contract is made.


Mr. McKENZIE:: The point under discussion is a very nice one. I have always admired the certainty and authoritative style of the minister (Sir George Foster). On most questions he is positive, certain and authoritative. I would like to remind him, now that he is sitting between two very eminent lawyers, that he is dealing with a very intricate question of law. There is just one fallacy in his whole argument and that is that a man who' sells any article, particularly an article of food for man or beast, contracts to sell a merchantable article. It will not do for him to sell, for instance, butter, looking nice on the outside, in a regulation keg or box, of the proper weight, colour, taste and everything all right as far as the eye can see, although that tub of butter is not merchantable. It is a common-law principle that the man who sells that tub of butter undertakes that he is selling a merchantable commodity fit for the 'purpose for which he is selling it. If the man's name is on the tub and it turns out that the butter is not merchantable, although it looks all right, or if it turns out not to have been put up in such a way ,as to stand the journey for which it was intended, not properly salted, or not properly coopered, there is recourse against him. What the hon. 'gentleman (Sitting around me want is that the man who sells a tub of butter shall put his name on it so that he may be held responsible. Applying that to the bale of hay, it is quite true that 'there is no time of the year specified when this man must *press his hay; be can press it when he likes. But he must know that he is bound to press a merchantable article, ilf he presses it in a rainstorm, he must know that he is not pressing a merchantable article and that he is not putting it in the car in a condition to stand the journey. If he puts his name on it he takes that responsibility. It is no hardship 'to him to be required to put his name on that article. That is all that 'is required by this very simple amendment. Perhaps it would have been better to have gone farther, but I fully agree with the minister that the conditions phould toe made as simple as possible, and that it is not- well to. toe piling up burdens on the farmer, or any other person who is working in connection with production. The burden should be as light as possible,
Jbut it is no great burden to ask a man who puts any commodity on the market to take the responsibility of attaching his name to it. If any person comes back on him that person assumes the burden of proving that the goods do not come up to the standard.


Robert Laird Borden: It is purely a
question of indentification?


Mr. McKENZTE:: Largely.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not understand why the purchaser cannot identify it himself toy putting a mark upon it,
(Mr. DENIS: I come from a county where there is a great deal of hay being traded in, and this is the way it is done:	The
purchaser will buy hay from (Mr. A, Mr. B, Mr. C, Mr. D, Mr. E, and so on-perhaps ten different persons. After he has 'bought the hay he leaves it until he gets ears. He does not get cars when he wants them. When he gets a few cars he goes out into the country and says:	" Mr. A, will you
(bring me your hay to-morrow, or as soon as you can?" But he is not going to advise 1 (one person only, because it would not give him. enough hay to load the cars at his disposal. Therefore, Mir. A, Mr. B, IMr. P, Mr. D, and (Mr. E, will he called upon to load hay. Mr. A will load a.car, Mr. B will load another car, and so on. But, when Mr. A is through loading, the car is only half filled and the purchaser takes the hay of MJr. B to complete the loading of that car. Another instance:	Supposing
Mr. A has- three or four different grades of hay. The buyer will be loading the same grade of hay on the same car. He may have twenty bales of hay from Mr. A to load on that car, twenty bales from Mr. B, twenty bales from Mr. C and so on. For it is up to the buyer to assort the hay when he loads the ears. Generally a buyer purchases a whole lot of hay, as was: stated here this afternoon:. A farmer has, say, three grades of hay, and may sell grade No. 1 to one man, grade No. 2 to another man, and so on. But this vieTy seldom happens; generally the farmer will sell his hay at so much peT ton for the lot. The dealer buys the hay at a medium price and then assorts *it to please himself, and the buyer under those conditions is forced to mix up hay which he bought from several persons. It will often happen that one complete carload will be loaded toy one man. In such a case there is no possible mistake; tout iwhen two, three or four men load hay on the same car then the hay is mixed. If the name of the owner or farmer is on each

bale and it happens that some of the hay rots, the hales -can he opened up and it can be -ascertained, -whose hay it iw-as that was not pressed in -good condition. To a certain extent it is like mixing had apples with good apples. The bad hay will rot the good hay after a -certain time, 'and the -whole lot will be heated- and injured; but if the whole consignment is not destroyed it can-be ascertained to whom the -bales that- -were injured belong.


Robert Laird Borden: I am not very
familiar with the intricacies of the trade, or of the Bill, but it seems to me that if the purpose is -purely to secure identification, the purchaser -can put his mark on each hale of hay jus-t as he can put his mark on a barrel of apples that he purchas-ed from any -person, -and which did not happen to bear any mark that otherwise would identify it. If it is simply identification that is aimed at, it would appear that the purchaser can s-ecure that identification himself if he desires to do s-o.


Jean-Joseph Denis: If the purchaser placed the mark himself- the point would not be so strong as it would be in the case, of the seller marking his own name, for he could say: "I 'marked my n-a'me on such and such a bale, and this, or that, is not my hay." But how could a purchaser who is loading bay on cars and d-oinig it in a hurry meet the requirement of himself placing the marks? For it takes e-ome time to do this He would have to hire a lot of men with tags, and these men would write on the tags-what? The name of Mr. Smith or Mr. Jones. These tags would have to be placed on the bales of hay and in so doing the men engaged in that work might make mistakes. It seems very much more simple that the owner himself, while pressing his hay, -should put his own name on the bale and so that he could say: " Here is my merchandise, now I can guarantee it."


George Green Foster: What guarantee does he give?
Mr. DENI'S: He guarantees that the hay has been pressed in good condition, and kept in good condition.


George Green Foster: He does if he -enters into a contract, not otherwise.
Mr. DENI'S: That is the general guarantee of law. These provisions are not in the interest of the buyer any more than they are in the.interest of the seller; I think the provisions are equally -as useful to them both. But I am urging it more for the farmer's sake than for the sake of
TMr. Denis.]
the trader. I am speaking for the farmers ot my constituency and of the surrounding constituencies who produce a tremendous lot of hay, and I think, from what I have heard, they would be quite satisfied with the provisions -I have suggested. It is just the same as a person who wanted to buy Maolaren's cheese; if he were shown a package which did not bear Maclare-n's name he would not buy it. In the same manner the seller or producer is interested in having his name marked on the hay, and the man who buys that hay and finds out he has not been deceived-that the hay was just as was represented by the seller- will go back to the same farmer the year after when he wants to purchase a further quantity, and say to him: " The hay you sold me was correctly -sold, it was equal to the representations which you made, consequently II can rely upon you." There have been complaints and disputes repeatedly between the s-eller and the buyer in regard to hay. A man will purchase hay and then find out that a few bales, or a certain quantity of it, is not what it should be, and yet he can not discover whose hay it is that he received in bad condition. All these things happen, and we have seen any amount of disputes about them.


George Green Foster: In such cases the ' hay is -bought without inspection.


Jean-Joseph Denis: Generally, in the country, the farmers do not have their hay inspected.
It is very unwise for -a man to -sell' his hay on -grade. A man thinks he has a certain grade, and then the inspector comes along and decides it is another grade altogether. The method of trading pursued is something like this: "Here, Mr. Buyer, is my hay in the bam. Examine it, fix a grade yourself, and tell me what, price you are going to give me for the whole thing." That is the way the -hay is sold, and it is a very much simpler and surer method for the farmer than having an inspector come to examine the hay and grade it.


George Green Foster: We have had a pretty long discussion, over this provision, and I am quite willing to take 'into consideration what my hon. friends have so tenaciously put forward. Probably it would be just as w^ell if the Committee rose now and reported progress. We will leave the matter over for another day, and if there is any way in which we can meet to some extent the point that my hon. friend (Mr. Denis) has in view, we will see what can be done towards meeting it. If not, we will complete consideration of the Bill, I move that the Committee rise and report progress.


Hormidas Mayrand: Mr. Chairman, I


Georges Henri Boivin: I am very sorry, but the rules of the House are very severe. A motion that the Committee rise is not debatable. If the hon. minister -will withdraw the motion, the hon. gentleman may proceed.


George Green Foster: The subject can be discussed just as well when we again go into Committee.
Progress reported.



REPORT OF EDITORIAL COMMITTEE.

George Green Foster: I beg to submit the annual report of the Editorial Committee on Governmental Printing, which was asked for the other day.



DANGER FROM EXPLOSION OF MUNITIONS.

[Stage Direction]
Sir GEORGE E. FOSTER (Minister of Trade' and Commerce) moved that the House go again into Committee of Supply:
Mr. J. ARCHAMBAULT (Chambly and Vercheres):: Before going into Committee of Supply, I wish to call the attention of the House to a very urgent matter touching the safety of the public, and the avoidance of disaster through the explosion of munitions. I am informed that several fires have occurred at the plant of the Canadian Explosives Company at McMasterville in the county of Vercheres, where tons of t.n.t. are stored. On February 5 I wrote the fol'owing letter to the Minister of Militia: Dear Sir, '
I have been informed by several citizens of Beloeil, county of Vercheres, that since about a month, fires have started in' the plant of Canadian Explosives, McMasterville. One of these fires was only stopped at about five feet from a large mass of t.n.t., another one caused an explosion a few days ago, which will probably result in deaitlh of two men.
I understand there is enough explosive in .that plant to cause a disaster similar to the one of Halifax. The lives of the citizens are in danger.
Will you he kind enough to point these facts to your inspector of munitions plants and see that the regulations are observed.
I rtceived the following answer from the Imperial Munitions Board:
Tour letter of February 5th, addressed to the Minister of Militia, has been referred to this Board.
The Board, has no connection with the plant at Beloeil, and no contracts wilth the Canadian Explosives, Limited, for the production of t.n.t. at that point. We are informed that the Company is producing t.n.t. for the United States Government.
About a week ago I put on the Order Paper the following questions:
1.	Who is in charge of inspection, for the Government, of ammunition manufacture?
2.	Who has charge of the inspection of the Canadian Explosives Company at Beloeil?
3.	How many times since the 1st January, 1917, has the said company's establishment been inspected, and what are the dates of said inspections?
4.	Is the Government aware that fires recently
broke out in the said' establishment and were extinguished only a few feet from storage containing t.n.t?	.
To which the following answers were given:	[DOT]
1.	The Chief Inspector of Arms and Ammunition at Quebec.
2.	.No official of the Department of Militia and Defence is charged with the inspection of the Canadian Explosives' premises at Beloeil.
An examiner (under the jurisdiction of the Chief Inspector of Arms and Ammunition) is stationed at Beloeil for the purpose of inspecting such supplies of ammunition and explosives as may be ordered! by this department from time to time.
3.	The Government has no information.
4.	No.
It may be added that the inspection of ammunition and exiplosives for the Imperial Government is carried out by representatives of the Imperial Ministry of Munitions of England, who are not under the jurisdiction of the Department of Militia and Defence.
I understand from this answer that when munition plants are not manufacturing for the Dominion Government, there is no in-specion. I should like to be informed: by tbe Government with regard: to
9	p.m. that matter, because if disaster occurs it will be too late to pass regulations for inspection. Does the Government intend to have this plant inspected in order that the safety of the public may he ensured? I understand that a very large quantity of t.n.t., which is a dangerous explosive, is stored at Beloeil.


George Green Foster: I am not sure whether the hon. gentleman gave notice to the Minister of Militia that he intended to bring this matter up. Whether he did or not, it happens that the Minister of Militia is not here, and no other member of the Government who is present is familiar with the circumstances. I shall be very glad, however, to bring the matter to the attention of the Minister of Militia and to ask him to reply to my hon. friend to-morrow.


Joseph Archambault: That will be satisfactory.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and the House went into Committee of Supply, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
Public Works-Ottawa Parliament building-restoration-The plans for the said buildingnoo
[Stage Direction]
and the method to be adopted for securing the reconstruction thereof to be subject to the approval of the Joint Committee appointed by the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition, $1,5'00,0 OOt
Rodolphe Lemieux: What is the present state of this work, and when may we expect to be reinstated in the new building?


Mr. CARVELL:: A week ago I invited the members of the House to visit and inspect these works, and I am very glad that a great many availed themselves of the opportunity and are thereby as familiar with the real state of the work as I am. Generally speaking, the structure of the building is about completed, excepting the main tower and six smaller towers, the steel of which has already been erected. The remainder of the work yet to be done is in the nature of finishing'up. The plan of the new building is very different from the old. Along the front, from the outside, it looks about the same, but that is the only respect in which the plan is the same as that of the old building. I had hoped up to the last month or two that it would he possible to have the building completed so that it would be ready for occupation during the next session of Parliament, but I am afraid that that will be a physical impossibility. Two buildings, practically complete in themselves, occupy the sites of the old HouSe of Commons and Senate chambers; these, for purposes of designation, are called office blocks. They com-prise'most of the three upper storeys of the building, the remaining part of that space consisting of rooms for committees and other general purposes. These office blocks are lighted on both sides from very wide wells, and will embrace, I think, eighty-four offices, each about ten by twenty feet. We anticipate that these will be completed by 1st November, and while it may seem like sacrilege, I confess that we intend to occupy this part of the building, when it is completed, by such members of the Civil Service as can be put- in them. This course is being taken because the amount which we are paying for rent in Ottatva is simply terrible, and it is only good business to utilize every foot of space that is at all available. The building is being constructed by a committee, of which I happen to be chairman, by virtue of my office. All purchases are being made by tender and contract.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Who are the other members of the committee?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: From the Senate: Sir James Lougheed, Hon. Robert Watson and

Hon. G. D. Robertson; from the Commons: Hon. Mr. Ballantyne, Dr. Reid, Mr. Calder and myself. I think that is all. The system followed is practically this: A board consisting of the two architects and the deputy minister meets from time to time and decides upon what is required in the immediate future.
It then makes a recommendation to the Parliamentary Committee, asking the right to call for tenders. Advertisements calling for tenders are inserted in a number of the leading newspapers, wherever it is thought it will be necessary, and when the tenders are opened they .are examined by the technical officers. A report is made to the committee, and the committee decide upon the letting of the contracts. Contracts have recently been let for the heating, the plumbing, the ventilation, the heating plant, the wiring, and the conduits. What I call the heating plant is the boilers and automatic stokers. Tenders have been called for for steel casements for the windows. That matter has not been finally decided. Tenders have also been opened for the furnishing of panel boards^ switch boards, transformers and electrical supplies. Those have not yet been decided. I can only assure the House that every dollar that is being expended in that building is passing under the strictest scrutiny of the Parliamentary Committee, and the lowest tender is in every ca-se being accepted, unless the very strongest reason can be given to the contrary. We have not accepted the lowest tender in every case, but if we have not, it is because there were reasons so potent that the ordinary man would not haye accepted the lowest tender. The amount spent up to date would be in the vicinity of $3,000,000, or perhaps a little less; it was1 $2,700,000 some two or three months ago. It would be. pretty hard to form an estimate of what it will take to finish the building, but it will run to at least $5,000,000, and possibly a little more, depending to some extent upon, the character of the inside decorations. The House, I think, will agree with me that if we are going to finish,the building we should finish it properly. If we come to the conclusion that, on. account of the financial situation, we cannot put in the proper decorations*, we should not put in decorations at all. It is the intention to finish the building as expeditiously as possible, making it more than a building for commercial purposes, a building that to some extent will be suitable for the capital of the Dominion of Canada. Some portions of it may be con-

sidered- as -a work of art. The public, will agree, I am sure, if we are erecting new parliament buildings- for the Dominion of Canada, we should build practically the latest thing in the -architectural world today.


Charles Murphy: What system of heating has been decided upon? I ask this because, prior to the beginning of the work, in fact, before the selection of a committee to superintend the work,. I wrote the then Minister of Public Works, suggesting that there be employed a certain modern method of heating which wouid do away with boilers and all that kind of thing in the building itself. The reply I received indicated that some such idea as that would be adopted. Later on I saw it was proposed to heat the building by electricity, but, judging by what my hon. friend has said- to-night, that scheme has not been carried out.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: As regards electricity,
this is the first intimation I have received that such a method of heating was in contemplation. We would have to have another water-power practically equal to the Chaudiere, in order properly to heat this building by electricity. Somebody has to devise a new scheme of electrical heating before it will be commercially feasible for a building of that kind. The contracts have all been- let for the heating plant, which consists of a central plant on Cliff street, down from the Hill, near the old Supieme Court building. The plan provides for six large boilers with automatic stokers. It is to be a hot-water heating system. I am speaking now without any actual knowledge, but I think I am right in stating that the scheme is to send the steam up the hill in large pipes, this steam to be used1 to heat water in the building for circulation throughout the building. That is, we transmit the steam from the central heating plant to the building rather than transmit the hot water. It is a technical matter on which I am not in a position to pass judgment.


Charles Murphy: It is a hot water system.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, but the hot water is heated by steam generated in the central plant. This plant will be of sufficient capacity to take care of the heating in the East Block, the West Block, the Lange-vin Block, the post office block and the Supreme Court buildings. As the system is on a unit basis, it might possibly be extended.


Charles Murphy: What has been decided with regard to the main tower? There appears to be provision made for a portion of it, but, though that has stood there for a length of time, yet either for reasons of convenience in connection with the rest of the work or because the plan has not been finally adopted, the work has not been gone on with.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is largely because
the architect has, as he says, -been dreaming over it. There is no reason why he should not keep on dreaming for a few months longer. Naturally, and I think quite rightly, he wishes- to have, from an architectural point of view in connection with the rest of the building, the best tower he can devise. The main tower will be built in front of the building as now erected, and it is to be 44 -feet square- at the base, running up that -size perhaps 150 -feet. I am speaking now offhand. It then tapers off to some extent. I am- not architect enough to describe to my hon. friend all the beauties of this tower, but when completed it will be 260 feet from the ground level. The foundation will undoubtedly be laid this year and possibly some portion of the substructure, but I d-o not think it is the intention to complete the tower until another year. It is not a necessary -portion of the building. There is, in my judgment, no reason to spending the money involved, a fairly large amount, until we have to spend it. The building could be completed and occupied without the construction of this tower, although it is- the intention to proceed with it and complete it in the ordinary course of affars.


Charles Murphy: I understood the minister to say that -by next November it would be possible to occupy a number of rooms in the new building for office purposes.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Eighty-four rooms.


Charles Murphy: The minister justifies
that on the ground of saving rent?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes.


Charles Murphy: Might it not be possible to do something of the same kind in connection with the chambers of the House of Commons and the Senate-not- that it would result in a saving of rent, but it would result in Parliament meeting, eo to speak, in ite own building again. My hon. friend mentioned that the question of decorations had not been actually decided upon. I understood him to say that matter was still o-pen, and he added that if the decora-

tione were to be gone on with, it was desirable that they should be excellent in every respect, and, in fact, the very best that can be found in the Dominion. With that I entirely agree, but the two chambers might be sufficiently advanced for the purposes of occupation, and the decorations could go on in the recesses ibetween sessions. I merely offer that as a suggestion to the minister.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have a great deal of sympathy with suggestions offered by my hon. friend, and I can assure him that meets with a great deal of favour foy different members of the Government.
Of course, we .are, in the judgment of the House, very largely in connection with this national building. The only difficulty is that the contractors and architects say it is impossible; I do. not mean impossible in the sense that it could not possibly be done, but practically, they say, it is impossible, and I would not want to urge my views against the professional views of such men as the contractors and architects of this building.


Charles Murphy: Impossible to have it ready for next session?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Practically impossible. I pressed it upon them very strongly-in fact,
I commenced pressing it over three months ago and other members of the Government have also pressed it, but the architects are very strongly of the opinion that it would be a very great mistake. Eighty-four rooms *could be finished, and I think that would be quite sufficient for the use of members of the Government and hon.. gentlemen, but the difficulty is there will be practically no offices ready for the officers of the House, and as my hon. friend knows, it takes a very large amount of space to take care of the requirements of the officers of the two Houses of Parliament. I am rather forced to the conclusion that it would be almost an impossible task to have the building reasonably ready for the next session of Parliament.


Mr. JACOBS:: I trust that in the tower which the minister has described proper provision will be made for the lodgment of such state .prisoners as we may have to take care of from time to time.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It is my intention to fix up a room in the basement of the tower for such characters as my hon. friend has described.


Samuel William Jacobs: That is absolutely unconstitutional. The proper place to put state prisoners is in the tower.


Arthur Bliss Copp: If I remember correctly, the work was to be done by force contract. Does that apply to the whole building?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That included the whole building from the basement to the top of the tower, everything on the outside and everything on the inside.


Mr. OOPP:: Would the contractors get a certain percentage on such work as the heating?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It covers everything one could imagine that goes into the construction of the building. [DOT]


Mr. CAHILL:: Is hot-water heating a good system?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The hot-water heating system passed the experimental stage years ago, and it is to be found in the large buildings and hospitals and universities in Toronto and Montreal and practically every American city. There is no question whatever about its economy and its usefulness.
I cannot give my hon. friend exact figures as to what the architects think will he saved, but there will be a very great saving of fuel and in cost, and it will do away with all dust and soot. There is just as much difference as between the steam car and the electric street car. Every one knows that in a building heated by an internal plant there is a large amount of dust accumulating all the time, and this will be absolutely eliminated in the new building. From the standpoint of cleanliness .and economy I think there is no question whatever as to the advisability of a central heating plant.


Frank S. Cahill: I was not thinking so
much of the isolation of the plant as of the merits, of the hot-water heating system.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I do not know enough about the technical side of it to answer my hon. friend, but we all know that all over this country buildings are heated by steam or by hot water. Generally speaking, I think the hot-water system is not used in very high buildings. This question has been gone into very thoroughly by the technical officers, and they have decided on the hot-water system as being the best and most economical method of heating.


Arthur Bliss Copp: What percentage is paid to the contractor under this force agreement over and above cost?	*

Mr. 'CAiRVELL: I have not the contract with me, but from my recollection they get eight per cent up to $4,000,000, seven per cent for the next million, and I think there is no commission after $5,000,000.


Samuel William Jacobs: Are any members on this side of the House assisting the minister in the plans for the new building?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I regret to say, there are none.	[DOT]


Charles Murphy: In that connection, and having regard to the question asked by my hon. friend from Westmoreland (Mr. Oopp) may I suggest to my hon. friend (Mr. Car-vell) who, I know, has not lost his regard for economy although he does not occupy his accustomed place on this side of the House, that 'he would see that the decorations do not form part of this contract on which the contractors are to get seven and eight per cent. I do not think that the . present contractors, eminent as they are in their own line, occupy any particular place in the artistic world in Canada, and I think my hon. friend will be well advised to terminate the contract as soon as he reasonably can, and I would suggest that the. decorations be made under some other arrangement. In any event my hon. friend will admit that the present contractors are not artists for decorative purposes, although artists in other directions, I admit, particularly in contracting.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I was not a member of the committee when the contract was made. I might go back and say that I think my hon. friend was a member of the committee at that time.


Charles Murphy: No.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: And therefore he wou'd be in a much better position to speak of the exact terms and conditions than I would be. But whether my memory is correct or not, I think I am safe in saying, from what the building has cost up to the present time and from the contracts that have already been entered into, that the building will cost $5,000,000 exclusive of decorations, and as the percentage stops at $5,000,000, the point of my hon. friend is therefore not so very important. If there was not the $5,000,000 limit, the committee, I think, would be well advised in considering whether they had the power to terminate the contract at that point or not.


Charles Murphy: Suppose the actual construction cost was $4,500,000, that would leave a margin of $500,000, and if that is to he used for decorations, I submit that
it should not form part of the original contract. My hon. friend will remember that my name did appear on the committee, but I never acted, for reasons which it is not necessary to go into now.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The word "decorations" covers a very broad field.	-


Charles Murphy: You will make it an Clastic term.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It covers a very great
part of the building. For instance, I would include in the word "decorations'" the marble arches, whether the entrance be finished in an elaborate manner or not. If you finish that hall in marble, as I think a large part of it should be finished, that work must be done by just such men ,as the present contractors. If, on the other band, we are to have a plain wall covered with valuable paintings, I think my hon. friend's criticism would be very much to the point, hut I can assure him that it is not intended to finish this in .painting, but in something very much more substantial, and I am satisfied that $5,000,000 will have been expended long before we come 'to the time of paintings ,and such artistic decorations as will he covered by that term.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I was appointed a member of that committee two years ago, and, like my hon. friend from Russell (Mr. Murphy), I resigned, after having attended the preliminary meetings of the committee, not that I found much to be criticised up to the time of my resignation, hut when I resigned I found we were overstepping the mark. The Parliament of Canada had voted a certain sum. toward the restoration of the buildings as they were before the fire, hut then it was decided to raze what was * left of the buildings and to erect a new Parliament building. I thought I had not been appointed a member of that committee to erect a new building, hut to restore the old. Be that as it may, the construction has gone on, and I must say that I have no fault to find, from an architectural point of view especially. I think this new building will be a monument worthy of Canada. 1 quite agree with my hon. friend from Russell when, he says it is quite a different thing to complete the artistic part of that building and the purely structural part of it. I believe that Peter Lyall and Company are a very reliable firm, and with regard to the erection of the structure itself, I think they stand well as the head of their profession in Canada. But with regard to the artistic

end of this monumental building, I say that the suggestion of the hon. gentleman from Russell should 'be accepted. The Parliament of Canada, comprising the -House of Commons and Senate, is not an ordinary building. It is a national temple, so to speak, .and will last for generations and generations. It has been my privilege to travel twice around the world, and I have seen many parliaments, and I may say that all parliaments are profusely artistic in their completion. We need not go ibeyond Canada. The Parliament buildings in Quebec are really a gem; but to -proceed from one country to another, the Capitol in Washington, the House of Commons in England, the Palais Bourbon in France, and the new Parliament buildings in South Africa, are some of the most artistic buildings in the world. It seems to me that the young artists of Canada should contribute towards the completion of the interior of the building, and that we should imitate what has been done at Westminster, England, where you read on the walls of Parliament the whole history of the English people and of the English nation. You have there splendid paintings, and sculptures which are masterpieces. You have the same class of works in Washington and in Paris. We have a history behind us in Canada, and we have a -great future ahead of us, and if a oonoours were established, it seem-s to me we would have something to stimulate the genius of our young artists, and at the same time to commemorate. the salient facts and great periods in the history of Canada. It is not necessary that this commemoration, in vieiw of the present financial crisis, -should materialize at once, but plans can ibe laid out f-or the future, as a conco-urs of that nature always takes -months andi years before being realized. I am just throwing out the idea.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I do not think there is any question whatever that my hon. friend is right. I have not read over the contract, but it would take a great deal of argument to make me believe that the Parliament of Canada appointed -a committee to purchase valuable paintings. As I view it, we are to erect buildings, and it may be a hundred years before the decorations are finished.


An hon. MEMBER:: We can not wait that long.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, perhaps we cannot wait. I do not think there will be any intention on the part of any one to pay a commission to the present contractors for supplying -paintings in the future. I think

my hon. friends can rest assured as to that At any rate, if I occupy -my present position for a few years, hon. gentlemen can rest assured that we will erect the building, and let -posterity take care of the artistic side of it.


Albert James Smith Copp: When this contract or agreement was entered into, I understood the intention was to repair the old building. We all know that the architects reported upon the walls of the old buildings shortly after the disastrous fire, and stated that very large portions of them were good, and all that they could be repaired and built upon. After the information I received at that time, like many other, I was quite surprised on returning to Ottawa during the summer to find that the buildings had been absolutely razed, andi that a new building was being constructed. I am not saying a word of criticism of the hon. minister in reference to the action he has taken, because this arrangement, I understand, was made by a committee of which my hon. friend was not at that time a member,- and the agreement was entered into for the purpose of rebuilding the structure on what is known as a force contract. The builders were to receive 8 per cent profit on the cost of the work up to $4,000,000; and on the cost from $4,000,000 to $5,000,000 they were to receive a profit of 7 per cent. I understand that somewhere in the vicinity of $3,000,000 has been expended?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, in that vicinity


Arthur Bliss Copp: That being so, the contractors have m-ade a very handsome thing in the past year on this work. My hon. friend says there is an agreement in regard to- th-is matter. In the present condition of business in this- country it might be decided that a contract might be changed or varied to a certain extent and an opportunity given to others without giving too much profit to any individual. I have nothing to say against the contractors; they are men who have been in this business for years and as far as I know they have a splendid reputation for doing work of this character. There may be an argument that it would be better to -construct certain public works under force contract rather than under the regular contracting system. That might have been so if the original intention had been followed of repairing the building, for changes might be found necessary in the course of the work and these could be more readily made under a force contract. But it is only up to a certain point, possibly in the construction of the stone work and the steel

structure, that the work should' be conducted in this particular way. When the committee asked for tenders for putt-ins? in the heating system, -the ventilating system, the sanitary arrangements and the elevators, for which I understand contracts are -let, there ie no good reason why others outside of the contractors for these different classes of work should be given a percentage or a rake-off, in view of the fact that they have nothing whatever to do with the work. When the committee make a contract under which the builders will have a percentage on work with which they have nothing whatever to do, it seems to me that it is not in line with good business principles.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: My hon. friend knows
I was not a member of the committee when the contract was made. I can only state what is known to a great many hon. members, and to the country generally, that when the main contract for the reconstruction of the building was made it was believed- that a large part of the old walls were intact and could be utilized again. I think, however, my hon. friend will admit that the moment it was decided to put the Co-mmdns Chamber in the western end of the building and the Senate in the eastern, it became necessary to tear down a portion of the new work that had been erected in 1907-8. My information is, and I think it is correct, that when the engineers and architects made a critical examination of the building in the spring of 1916 they found they were in error in their first report that practically all the outside walls should be retained, and they decided to tear them down. The architects decided to tear them down. I believe without even the consent of the Minister of Public Works of that , day. I would like to recall to my hon. friend from Westmorland (Mr. Copp) the fact that right up to February of this year the former member for St. John, now the Lieutenant Governor of New Brunswick, was a member of that committee. I believe he has had as great an experience in public buildings and public construction as most men in 'Canada, and he heartily concurred in- the decision of the committee. When he has such eminent authority as that, I. do not think he ought to criticise me for at least- following along in his footsteps, believing that whatever was done was done with the best intentions possible.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I distinctly said I was not offering any criticism of my hon. friend [DOT] with regard to his course except at the present time. I recall the hon. gentleman as having taken strong ground that changes might be made in the interest of the country. In so- far as blaming him for following in the footsteps of the former member for St. John is concerned, I may say that that gentleman has gone to a place of safety and he is not responsible to Parliament or to -the people in this matter. If my hon. friend follows in his footsteps he must assume the responsibility U3 well as the honour.


Charles Murphy: In answer to a question of my right hon. friend the leader of the Opposition (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) a few days ago, I understood the Minister of Public Works to say that it had been decided not to include quarters' for the Speakers within the new building. Is that correct?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is correct.


Charles Murphy: Has any arrangement
been made to provide quarters outside of the building?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, none whatever. There is a building down in the expropriated area, known as the Manuel hou-se, which the present Speaker has been examining, and it is just possible that it will be fitted up temr porarily for the use of the Speaker until such time as some definite plan can be decided upon. Outside o-f that there have beep no arrangements or even discussions as to what provision will be made for a Speaker s residence in the future.


Charles Murphy: There used to be frequent references in the press, in the initial stages of this work, to the scope that it was likely to assume, and I recall several very elaborate descriptions of a stack room underground on the face of the cliff or the Lover s Walk. Has that been decided upon as a part of the new building, or has anything definite been done in regard do it?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Nothing has been done about that whatever. I am speaking now without all 'the data before me, but I am sure that no decision has been made, and I do not think it probable that that question will come up in the near future.


Mr. FIELDING:: Us the exclusion of the Speaker's chamber due to lack of space or to other considerations?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I do not think it is so much for lack of space. There is an enormous amount of space in the new building. I think I am safe in saying that the architects, and a great many people who have investigated it, came to the conclusion that



with the ceilings about 20 feet high an ordinary room would look more like a box turned on its end than a room. It would be an ungainly affair and you would have to have rooms with ceilings such as I have described unless you put the Speaker's quarters up on the third or fourth story. Personally, if I have any feeling in the matter, I would prefer to stick to the old custom of having the Speaker's house within the Parliament buildings. That may be only because I still have some veneration for the antiquities, the records of the past and the- traditions of our fathers. But, after all, we are living in a progressive age, and because Speakers from time immemorial have had their residence in the House of Commons, both in the old country and in this, I do not suggest that we should still follow that custom. I must confess that it is an open question, and' without having any strong feelings one way or the other, I think that in what I am saying I am voicing the sentiments of the gentlemen who were on the Committee and by whom it w>as decided that probably it would be better to forsake the traditions of the past and have the house for modern Speakers either maintained by themselves, or by the country, in some other locality.


William Stevens Fielding: I hope I am not lacking in veneration for the older things, but it is not on that- ground alone that quarters should be provided for the Speaker. If it is a matter of principle that the Speaker or any official shall have a residence, there is something to he said in favour of it; and in that case there is an obvious advantage in locating the Speaker's quarters where he can be easily accessible. If the, policy upon the matter has been settled, there is no use in d-iscusising it, but if it is still an open question I certainly favour the idea that the Speaker should have an official residence, and that it should, if possible, be within the Parliament buildings. In the old Parliament buildings the trouble* was, not that the Speaker had a residence, in the building, but that quite a numfber of other people also had residence there, and if they were all to be again included I think the minister would be quite right and that there is no particular reaeon why the. accommodation should not be used for other purposes. So far ae the Speaker of the House is concerned, and I think the remark also applies to the Speaker of the Senate, if they are to have official residence, there is an obvious convenience in having them within the Parliament buildings.
[Mr. CarveltJ


Mr. CRONYN:: I would like to say that not only should the Speaker be accessible during the session, but as he is charged with the oversight of a great deal of what goes on inside the House, residence on the .spot would be an obvious advantage. Nor does it seem to me that in modern days, when buildings are equipped with elevators and so forth, there is any great objection to putting the Speaker's residence in an upper story. There are, indeed, advantages, to be enjoyed under such circumstances, particularly with such a site ae the one occupied by the Parliament buildings here.
While I am on my feet I would like to support the. remarks of the hon. member for Russell (Mr. Murphy) when he expressed the hope that we might get into the new House before next session. Despite what the minister has, said, I am inclined to believe that if sufficient effort were made we might be able to occupy and utilize the chambers and sufficient of the new buildings to carry on our work next session. Speaking as a back bencher, who, save when the House is empty, has not the luxury of a front seat, but has to sit on a wooden chair at a very awkward angle, it does not appeal to me that we should be condemned for another session to the present chamber. After all, though Parliament is the place for talk, it has also been well described as a factory for the turning out of the Acts which govern the country, and it strikes me that the plant of this factory is about as inefficient as one could find. Even this evening, and perhaps this is due to my own disability, I had the greatest difficulty in hearing what the Minister of Public Works was saying. He speaks loudly and distinctly, hut in this chamber you often lose a great deal of what is said. I feel quite certain that the poor attendance of members in the House is at times due to these causes of discomfort and bad acoustics. There has been some talk of "ginger groups" in the House. I think if we formed a "ginger group" we might do something towards spurring on the architect with this work. As I understand it, the trouble is not so much with the contractor as with the architect. As the minister has said with regard to the tower, the architect desires to dream for some further days of its beauty. Well, let us finish the interior m some habitable way and let the beauty come later; there will be plenty of time for that. I would still have hope that something may he done to hurry things so

that we might get into the new quarters next session.
Mr. MoCREA: The contractor's commission, I understand, is eight per cent up to four million dollars, and after that seven per cent. What commission or remuneration does the architect receive for his work?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I think it is five and a half per cent.


Mr. McCREA:: That probably accounts for his wanting to demolish the whole building.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have never asked
what animated him, and therefore I am unable to answer the question. I can, however, inform my hon. friend that there are two architects, and between them they receive, I think it is, five and a half per cent commission. They furnish all the technical assistants, with their clerks, and the five and a half per cent covers the total cost to the country of designing and supervising the construction of the building.


Mr. PEDLOW:: I was one of the members who had the extreme pleasure of visiting the new Parliament buildings at the invitation of the Minister of Public Works a few days ago, and I enjoyed the privilege very much. In rambling through the buildings with the Minister of Public Works and the chief architect, the matter of the completion of the Commons and Senate chambers was thoroughly discussed, and I was given to understand in a measure that the completion of the chambers in time for the next session of Parliament was not such an impossibility as seems to have been conveyed to the House to-night, in fact, that it was not altogether impossible. I heartily agree with the remarks made by the hon. member for London (Mr. Cronyn) that, while grumbling at our surroundings may not come with a very good grace from a new member, especially in war times, yet when better conditions could possibly be provided by a little extra effort, that effort should not be lost sight of. I felt confident, from the assurances given me by the Minister of Public Works, that a strong effort would be made towards that end. My own views, on the occasion of our tour through the buildings, did not quite coincide with the ideas of the architect, who was disposed to take all the time possible in completing the structure, and was not disposed to hand over the buildings for occupancy until such time as he had put on the last flourish. THowever, I do not think the
architect's ideas should prevail altogether. I suggested that the workmen should be concentrated from now on upon the completion of the Commons and Senate chambers. If that were done I think there should be no difficulty whatever in having those sections at least finished in time for the next session of Parliament.
The hon. member for London suggested that possibly the .present House would be more comfortable if there were a few more "ginger groups" in it. An hon. gentleman on this side then made the suggestion that we had an exhibition by a "ginger group" not long since, occupying seats almost exactly where the h'on. member for London at present is sitting, which was very much enjoyed by members on both sides, and also, perhaps, by a portion of the gallery. I think where the "ginger" is required is behind the architect. If the committee who have charge of this matter on behalf of the Government, and have the say-so, give the architect distinctly to understand what they want, and insist upon having both chambers finished in proper time, their views would in all probability be carried out.


William Cameron Edwards: Reference has been
made to Hon. Mr. Pugsley, the former Minister of Public Works. I did not see very much in that gentleman's record as Minister of Public Works to commend itself to me, but that may have been my fault, not his. We should, however, speak kindly of the absent, as we do of the dead. I am in agreement with the determination arrived at by the Committee to tear down what remained of the walls after the fire. I do not know whether any of these walls could have been utilized, but, though I had no special knowledge of the subject, I thought from the first that it would be a mistake to give the new building an appearance of patch-work by utilizing such walls as were not entirely destroyed. Our country is too big and has too great a future to justify our patching up such an important building as this. With regard to living quarters for the Speakers of the Commons and 'the Senate, I believe that no place should be provided in the building for 'that purpose. I would not provide ciuarters for the Speaker of the Senate, at any rate, because the Senate does not sit very late, and after the Senate rises the Speaker of that House might better be off in a quiet place by himself, resting for the duties Of the next day. Why should we provide, in a building constructed for legislative purposes, living quarters for the

gentleman who happens to be appointed Speaker for three or four years, and is succeeded by somebody else for a similar period? I would give the Speaker only such office quarters as are necessary, where he could be communicated with during office hours by members of the House who desire to see him. Perhaps some hon. gentleman can give me a reason why the Speaker of the Commons or the Speaker of the Senate should be provided with living quarters within the building or a residence outside; for my part I see none. As to our going into the building before next session, it is true that we should all like to do that. The acoustic properties of this Chamber are about as bad as. they possibly can be.
If one happens to be facing the
10	p.m. gentleman who is addressing the House, it is possible to hear what he says, but if you are behind, it is difficult indeed) to hear. While we should all like to get into the new building by next session, it must be remembered that we are spending $5,000,000 in the construction of a home for the future legislators of our country, and we should not proceed with haste. We have had to put up -with inconveniences here for a few sessions, and we can stand them for another session, if necessary. It is not desirable that the construction of the building should be unduly rushed, because as Canadians we all want to see the new building, when it is finished, the finest on the North American continent. It is not a question of a few hundred thousand dollars; the people of Canada are not going to quibble over the cost of this building, which should last for all time. I agree that the. contractors should not make anything out of such things as pictures and decorations-I am glad to have the minister's assurance in that regard-but there should be no cheese-paring in the matter of the cost of the building. We want to make it as fine as architectural genius can make it; we want it to he something which may be pointed to with pride by the people of our own country and looked upon by others who come here as something worthy of this great country and its future.


Charles Murphy: With the member for
Frontenac (Mr. Edwards) I am in complete agreement as to the disappearance of the Speaker's residence from the Parliament building. I see no reason for an official residence for the Speaker within the building. The reasons advanced by the member for Shelburne and Queen's (Mir. Fielding) that the Speaker should be at all times

accessible does not entail the placing of an official residence within the walls of the Parliament 'building. So long as the Speaker has an office there, like any other official of Parliament, and. is accessible ' within office hours, that meets all the requirements of Parliament. The very presence of these quarters in the old building led to certain features that nobody would associate with legislation-some of which, I think, the member for Shelburne and Queen's had in mind when he made his brief remarks. For that reason, I hope that the present decision. to keep the building free of an official residence for the Speaker of either House will be adhered to. I need not add anything to the suggestion made to the minister as to the general desire that exists for completing the building. At the same time, that advice must be qualified, as the member for Frontenaic has said; we must not rush the construction of the building at the expense of its excellence. That, I am sure, is not in the mind of any hon. gentleman who has spoken this evening.


Jacques Bureau: Would it be possible to have work on the chamber proceed to the extent that we could occupy it during the session, and to suspend the work on the building while the House was sitting? Of course, we are all anxious to get into the new building in order that we may have more comfortable quarters, but to rush the completion of the chamber itself might be detrimental to the rest of the building. At the same time, it would not be desirable for us to deliberate while the noise of hammers and saws was being heard around us. I think that we should go on with the work gradually, so that when we occupy the building we shall be not only comfortable, hut quiet as well. As to the quarters for the Speaker, I agree with the member for Frontenac. It is not often that we meet on the same ground and shake hands, but tonight it happens that we entertain the same opinion. I do not believe that the Speaker of either House ought to have living quarters within the building. As long as they are where we can reach them, the purposes of Parliament can be served; if the Speaker has an office in the building that is all we want. He may live in any part of the city, and proceed to and from the House by motor car or other means of transportation; so that it would not be any disadvantage to members if he lived outside.


Mr. E. LAPOINTE:: Tramway.


Jacques Bureau: We may require him after the street cars stop running. It would be better for the country to pay for a motor car to be used by the Speaker than to establish quarters for him within the Parliament building.


Mr. MICHAUD:: When my hon. friend speaks about the noise of saws and hammers around the House of Commons, does he include the Senate?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am glad we have had this discussion, and I would not have objected 'had every member of the Committee to-night expressed his views, upon these matters, because the Government as such is taking practically no responsibility over the erection of this building. We look upon this as the home for the future Parliament of Canada, and, as such, jit 'is being constructed by, the Committee of the Parliament of Canada, acting, of course, under the advice, to a very great extent, of the technical gentlemen who have been employed to assist it. The very fact that there has been such a difference of opinion expressed here to-night as to whether we should hurry on the work so as to occupy the building next year, and whether we should have the Speaker's quarters within or without the building, or anywhere at all, shows (that the committee 'have some difficulty in deciding upon these very important questions. I have no objection whatever (to the "ginger group" to which my hon. friend refers, in discussing the matter from every angle, and I would not care if there was a " dynamite group."


Jacques Bureau: Have them on the lawn.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: So far as the construction of this Parliament building is concerned, I would be glad to hear all the criticisms and all the suggestions which any hon. member can offer, because I realize this is not a contentious matter. It is purely a matter of getting the very finest building which we can get consistently with the reasonable amount of money at our disposal. But I am very much impressed by the suggestion made by the hon. member for Three Rivers (Mr. Bureau). He is usually pretty logical when 'he wants to be.


Jacques Bureau: When he wants to be? That is a modification.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: My hon. friend suggests that it will be pretty hard to hold a session of Parliament with a hundred workmen working all around us finishing up the remainder of the building-for I do not believe it would be possible before next session
to do more than finish up those 84 rooms, the two chambers and some of the corridors. There would have to be an army of workmen working in and around the buildipg while the House was in session. There are other things hon. members are forgetting. This would give no accommodation for the working staff of the House. We must have accommodation for the officials of the House. If my hon. friends can devise any scheme whatever whereby they can hurry up the architect, or the contractor, or the committee, or any other person or body of persons having jurisdiction or power, I shall be very glad to carry it out. But it would not be good business to hurry up the completion of the building at the expense of efficiency.	.


Charles Murphy: As to responsibility m the matter, I would draw my hon. friend's attention to the fact that the contract is not made with the committee. The contract is between the Department of Public Works and the contractor. The contract was executed by the Minister of Public Works who represents His Majesty, the King, and the contractor, not by the committee.	,


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I presume that is true because the committee would have no legal standing.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I just wish to endorse what has been said by my hon. friend from Frontenac (Mr. Edwards) and my hon. friend from Russell (Mr. Murphy) with regard to the Speaker's quarters, and also with regard to hurrying up the erection of the building to the neglect of the work. Most of us are anxious to get into the new building-I am not particularly worrying about it; I can sit here as well as anybody, although the new building would be much more comfortable than this one- but I would not like to see the work neglected on account of too much haste.


Mr. EULER:: Any one who has seen the stage to which the new building has been carried will admit that it is practically physically impossible to4 complete it in time for the next session of Parliament. I would just like to make one' suggestion. I agree with all that has been said about the discomforts of this chamber. As a new member, possibly I should not pass my opinion, but it is quite true this chamber is not what it ought to be, and the suggestion I wish to make is this: that the authorities ought to endeavour to make it as comfortable as possible for the next session. if we do have to spend next session

here. Perhaps one of the greatest difficulties with which we have to contend is in the matter of acoustics-we cannot understand.the members as they speak. That difficulty can very largely be overcome if every hon. member who rises to speak attempts to speak a3 distinctly as possible, and I believe we ourselves can overcome most of the difficulties in that direction for one session at least. I would like to express the opinion that, when the seating arrangements of this Chamber were made, they seemed to be made with the one distinct idea of making them as uncomfortable as possible. I am referring to the chairs and the seating arrangements, and the matter of heating and ventilation. Many of us have perhaps acquired the first colds of this winter since coming into this House. It is quite possible, with a Little care, to make the accommodation here a good deal better than it has been.


Jacques Bureau: The fire alarm system in this building indicates by lights on what story a fire occurs. Should a fire start on the second story, a light of a certain colour will appear showing where the fire is. Is that the system' to be adopted in the new building, or is the old system to be used?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I could not answer that question; in fact I do not think the matter has been discussed. The system installed in this building is certainly a very excellent-one. It was installed by a gentleman who is employed on the staff, in fact, who has charge of this building. By pressing a button, it indicates by a light which floor the fire is on, and whether it be to the right or to the left of the main entrance. It shows the stand pipe and it is certainly a wonderful contrivance. As regards the new building the matter has not been discussed-, but it woVld certainly be worthy of discussion.


Charles Murphy: The'new building will
be fireproof?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, and I cannot conceive there will ever be a fire in the new building. That may be a violent assumption.


Jacques Bureau: The Titanic " could not
be sunk."


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This is stronger even
than the Titanic. There will not be a particle of wood of any kind or description in this new building excepting the doors, iand, I think, base boards around the inside of the offices. There are no door frames as such; there are no wooden win-
dow frames or wooden sashes; everything is either metal or concrete. Therefore, while you might burn the desks and papers in a room, while you might possibly conceive of snch a condition of affairs that would burn the doors, that would be the end of it, 6o that I am not bothering my head very .much about a fire alarm in the new building-	.
Ottawa eastern departmental block-new fireproof roof, eta, 1120,000.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This item has been carried along for a number of years, and it is very doubtful if any money will be expended during the coming year. In peace times it would be proper to expend this money, not so much to make the East Block waterproof beoause it is that very well now, but to make it fireproof especially that portion of the building'occupied by the Finance and Treasury Departments. They have fairly safe vaults. Money is scarce, and the roof will have to be in a good deal worse state than it is now before we shall spend any money on it this year.
Ottawa-new public building:, $1,0-00,000.


Charles Murphy: What has the minister in contemplation?
Air. CARVELiL: When I assumed the duties of Minister of Public Works, pretty nearly every morning a request was laid on my desk for more space, and the officers of the department were spending a good deal of their time hunting around the city seeing where it was- possible to house the Service. The Service, of course, has grown very much of late and necessarily so; .the war has brought -additional responsibilities, and adequate quarters must be provided for the officials. I asked the deputy to furnish me at once with a statement- of the number of buildings, their location and description, rented by the Government in t'he city of Ottawa. I have not the list here, but I can tell the committee in a general way that when this statement was made up some two months ago we were paying rentals in the city of Ottawa amounting to $657,000 a year. To be absolutely accurate, I should say that some portion of that coveis heating and elevator service paid for by the landlords-, but after making every reasonable deduction, I think I*am safe in saying that the actual rentals paid by the Government in the city of Ottawa amount to $600,000 a year, and they run all the way from 40 cents to $1 and $1.25 a square foot-I know of one case where it is even more than that. There seems to be no plan or

system upon which one can. go. It is a question to some extent of location. Those new buildings on Sparks street, for instance, naturally command a higher rental than older buildings. But the Government has been driven to the point where it is not a question of getting the beat building on Sparks street, but of going wherever the space can be had and paying almost what the landlords like to charge; we are about in the position that we have not anything to say about it. Now it was proposed by the officers of the department that we should erect a building on the block between Albert and Queen streets, on the west side of O'Connor street. That, of course, raised a question which has been discussed in the newspapers to a great extent, and I am finding no fault with that, because that is w'hat newspapers are for; every member of the community has a perfect right to go to the newspapers and discuss matters pertaining to the public welfare. Some three or four years ago a commission was appointed to prepare and lay before the Government a general plan for the construction and development of governmental offices. That plan is now in our possession, and while I am not sufficient of a landscape artist to pass judgment upon it, it looks all right to me. But if we erected to-day a building in keeping with that plan, north of Wellington street, either west of the old Supreme Court buildings or on Sussex street, it would necessitate a pretty high type of building because I do not think the people of Canada would want those in authority to erect permanent office buildings on a grand scale unless they were built in keeping with the general architectural design submitted to the Government. I think I am safe in saying that if will cost 75 per cent more to erect a building to-day than it did four or five years ago or than it will cost probably four or five years hence. The question of time is also a very important element, I could not bring myself to believe that I should be justified as a business man in starting on the erection of a building in keeping with that general plan. We should be spending a very large amount of money for the space we obtained, and should also be losing a lot of valuable time, because we could not possibly have any one unit of a building ot that class ready for occupation inside of two or three years. We therefore got the officers of the department to figure on an ordinary office building on the site which I have mentioned. I thought I expressed my wishes in fairly dear language; I think I have the faculty of making people understand what I mean as a rule, and I certainly wanted nothing but a real, good, substantial business block erected. The site we decided upon is 200 feet square, and we proposed to erect a building 200 feet long by 150 feet wide, with an opening in the centre 100 feet by 50 feet; that would give a corridor around the whole building, which was to be nine stories high, and every room would have light and air on one side. We asked the 'Chief Architect to make an estimate, and in the month of January he estimated that a building of this size containing 700 rooms and 140,000 square feet of floor space could be erected for $1,076,250. We estimated that the site would cost $200,000; so the building would cost altogether about one and a half million dollars. I took the'matter up with Council, where it was discussed and decided upon as a matter of policy. Specifications were prepared and we called for tenders, but before the tenders were in for the main building it was thought^and I am satisfied we were correct-that we could do better by calling for tenders for the steel work ourselves, making a separate contract for that work. We received a tender from the Dominion Bridge Company for $334,000, and one from the Hamilton Bridge Works for $358,000. The architect's estimate was $325,000. We therefore accepted the tender of the Dominion Bridge Company, the lowest tender. When the tenders were received for the main building, by adding to that the tender we had received from the Dominion Bridge Company, we found that the building was going to cost -I do not want to give the exact figures here because it might affect future tenders -some four or five hundred thousand dollars more than we had been told it would cost. When those tenders were brought to me I naturally asked some questions, and going over the specifications. I found that we were building a work of art instead of a business building. I found copper roofs, copper doors, marble slabs, in fact everything which a man could imagine from an artistic standpoint. But I did not find it very much better from a business standpoint, and therefore I gave instructions to cut things down and see what could be done. They are working at it now and producing wonderful results. The new plans will be ready for inspection probably within the next day or two, and if we can succeed in having this building erected on a purely business basis and for a reasonable figure, we are going to do it; if we cannot, we shall have to resort to some other expedient. '
ms


William Cameron Edwards: Has the site been purchased?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: A portion of it has. The question came up about the value of this sate. Personally I was in favour of putting it in the Exchequer Court.
However, we had a couple of good men in the department detailed to start it and see what they could do. One of these men especially had a large experience in a mortgage company in valuing both city and country property, and he has satisfied me at least that he is able to buy these properties perhaps cheaper than we could obtain them if we went to the Exchequer Court.


Charles Murphy: Who is he?
(Mr. CARVELL: Mir. C. H. Hunter.
Mr. PED'LOW:	This is not the property Mr. Acres made $22,000 out of?
(Mr. CARVELL: No, that is another part of the city I can assure my hon. friend that nobody will make 22 cents commission on this purchase. We have settled with three parties for a sum in the neighbourhood of $125,000. We aTe still negotiating with the other parties! and I have strong hopes that some amicalble arrangement . can be made.. Of course, if the owners of the land will not come down to what the department consider fair and reasonable, . we will have to put them in the Exchequer Court; but I have strong reasons for believing it will not be necessary to do that.


Charles Murphy: In the meantime, some of ihe buildings have been tom down.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, and a portion of
the site, one of the most valuable lots, was owned by the Government heretofore, and occupied as a museum. That and some smaller buildings have been tom down. One or two of the Itots were vacant. If the building is erected on the site proposed, there would1 be light on four sides. We will have Queen street on one side, O'Connor on the second side, and Slater on the third side, a fifty-foot open space on. the west side between that and the next building; so there will, he light on. four sides, access on four sides, a well 100 feet by 50 feet in the centre, and a street car line going right by the building. In my judgment it is good business to erect a building of this kind, get into it and save rent, because the interest will not amount to anything like the amounts we are paying in rents, and it may possibly have a salutary effect on some of . the landlords in Ottawa.


Charles Murphy: Within that time is it contemplated that it will he completed?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: We .believe, in fact, we are sure, that had the former .specifications been .such that we could have let the contract upon them, tlhe building would have been finished by the first day of June, 1919. We hope to have it ready for occupancy on 1st July, 1919.


William Cameron Edwards: What floor space is the Government renting now?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Speaking generally, it is a little over one million feet. The Public Works Department have rented 885,000 square feet, the Imperial Munitions Board
77.000	square feet, and the Department of Militia and Defence 184,000 square feet, and those three items .put together make about
1.146.000	square feet of rented space.
'Mr. LEMTEUX:	Does the Dominion
Government pay for the rental of the Imperial Munitions Board building?
(Mr. CARVELL: No. I am simply giving, for the information of the House, the amount of .apace occupied by the public service at Ottawa. The Munitions Board finance themselves, and while, of course, a large amount of money is furnished by the Dominion to that board, it is really loaned to the British Government and charged up to them.


William Stevens Fielding: 'Some years ago the Government bought a large block of land lying west. of Mackenzie avenue, between Mackenzie avenue and Sussex street, for building purposes, and on that block the Customs building was erected. Is there any remaining portion of that land not built upon? Have we vacant land there?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, we have a large .amount of vacant land there. I might say it is being very largely occupied now temporarily for work shops and stone sheds in connection with the construction of the new Parliament building, but that is only a temporary arrangement.


William Stevens Fielding: Would that be the reason it could not be buiilf upon, or is it because the character of the building already there is different from that which my hon. friend contemplates?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Both. I do not look upon the fact that it is now temporarily occupied as very much of a bar to using it for a building, if we desired to do so. That building could be moved to another part of the city, but I am opposed to erecting a

building there, unless it be a building along the general plan reported or recommended by this commission to which I have referred, or by some other commission. My opinion-and I think I am voicing the sentiments of practically every gentleman in this House-is that when the Dominion of Canada starts out to erect housing accommodation for its officials, the building ought to be something in line with the splendid building which Parliament is going to occupy, and I am safe in saying-in fact we have lots of expert testimony from the officials of the department-that it will cost from 50 to 75 per cent more per square foot of space to erect a building of such a general character than it will to erect the kind of building which we propose to put up in another part of the city. I do not think anybody would feel justified in erecting a nine-story office building as a part of our permanent government institutions.
I admit that, so far as I am concerned personally, I would never consent to erect a nine-story office building on any lands which we hope in the future will be the permanent home of the official staff of the Government of Canada.


William Stevens Fielding: The hon. gentleman refers to the special plans. I fancy he has reference chiefly to the plans contemplated for the lands west of the Supreme Court, but the land to which I refer has already on it the Customs House, and I suppose any other buildings that were erected there would have to conform to the architecture of that building, and that might be very much more expensive than what my hon. friend has in mind. But I think the general plan-referring to the buildings that might be erected west of the Supreme Court-would hardly affect the class of building to be put up on land on Mackenzie avenue.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have not the recommendation before me, but I can assure my hon. friend that the recommendation of the Federal Plan Commission did cover the land on Mackenzie avenue,, as well as the land on Wellington street. In fact, they went so far as to cover the site of the Russell House -and it was " some " plan. However, I am not violating the plan; I am leaving that for other hands to despoil. I am trying to exercise real good horse sense in putting up an office building as cheaply and as expeditiously as we can.


William Stevens Fielding: The plans referred to did not deal with these buildings. It was a much larger matter. It was a plan for the
creation of the federal district of Ottawa, and covered a pretty wide area. Or was there a distinct plan for building separate and apart from that?
, Air. CARVELL: I think they, in their wisdom, took into consideration not only what the Government should do, but what all the rest of the people of Ottawa should do. They even went so far as to say you should put an office building here, and a residence there, and almost put the ban on any person who decided to put an office building there and a residence here. However, I am not violating the Holy Writ of that plan. We are simply trying to put up an office building in that portion of the city where other office buildings are, and where it can be used to the best advantage by the Service at large, for the least possible money.
Mr.' LEA1IEUX: I would hesitate a good deal before erecting another building on Mackenzie avenue, as mentioned by the hon. member for Shelburne and Queen's (Mr. Fielding). I am told that, if the truth were known about the money sunk in the foundation of that building it would be a case where truth is stranger than fiction.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Of course, I know it cost some money.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I understand they began building that foundation on the side of a mountain, that it was slipping down from time to time, and that instead of making some inquiry and finding out where the foot of the mountain was, they kept building until what they had built slipped down to the bottom. That is a very expensive way of getting a foundation.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am afraid my hon. friend is drawing on his, fertile, Scotch imagination, because the Customs building is certainly a very excellent building. It is true it cost a great deal of money and there is no doubt that they found a very unsatisfactory foundation and were compelled to go down to a very great depth. I do not know that that had much to do with the decision to erect this building on Queen street, because I understand that, as they went north on Mackenzie avenue, they found that the foundation became very much better, and that in the opinion of the engineers the remainder of the space referred to by the hon. member for Shelburne and Queens (Air. Fielding) would be quite satisfactory for the erection of any kind of public building. The thing that

weighed with the officials of the department, myself included, was the fact that we did not feel we would be justified in putting up a fairly cheap business block on that portion of the Government grounds, and we did not feel justified in going to the, expense of undertaking the erection of a permanent building in accordance with a general plan in the present financial stringency.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I am told that the foundations of the new7 Montreal Customs house are on a par with those of the Customs Department in Ottawra. I am told that it is impossible to find a solid bottom. There has been any amount of money sunk there too.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."


Frank S. Cahill: If I am right in my calculation, yop are paying about sixty cents a square foot for the space now occupied. Do you expect to make any saving on that by the erection of this new building?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: We are paying very much more than sixty cents a square foot for such .accommodation as this new building will furnish. We are paying probably, on the average, from 85 to 90 cents for the accommodation such as this will he. It was figured out in the report which I read to the House a while ago that a million and a quarter dollars, the total cost of this ' building, including heating, elevator service, and everything in connection with it, would represent about 68 or 69 cents per square foot of area.


Frank S. Cahill: Including depreciation?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, that takes in depreciation and interest upon investment. That takes in everything that the ordinary commercial company or individual would consider if they were erecting a building. as a business proposition. If the building were going to cost half a million more than that, I would have to reduce my figures to that extent. I can only say to the House that we are not going to erect a building to cost half a million dollars more -that is all there is about it.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Is it not on a cubic foot basis that the cost of buildings is estimated instead of on the square foot basis? Another question. Have you taken into consideration whether the fire protection service in the city of Ottaw7a will reach the top of a building nine stories high?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have not personally investigated that, but I can only say that if the fire pressure in the city of Ottawa was sufficient to reach the top of the Parliament Buildings at the time of the great fire, there cannot be much difficulty about it reaching the top of a building 110 feet high dow7n in that part of the city. It is only a nine story building, and you will find buildings on Sparks street, a couple of blocks away, from 25 to 30 feet higher still; I do not think there is any question about that. As to the other question raised by my hon. friend, it is true, I believe, that when architects are estimating the probable cost of a building they take the cubic contents, but it is also true that when they are renting buildings it is done upon the basis of the floor area, taking the actual inside measurements of the offices themselves and disregarding the halls and elevator space. When I quote the figure of
141,000	square feet at a, certain price, I refer to 141,000 square feet of aotual office space exclusive of corridors and elevator space. By the same method of calculating, you arrive at the cost per square foot of the buildings which are being rented by the Government in Ottawa.
Mr. MoKENZIE:	When the minister
erects this large building, will he be able to give up any of the buildings which are now rented, or will he require this building in addition to what we have now?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I certainly think so. If my hon. friend will take the figures which I gave, he will see that this building will contain a little more than ten per cent of the total space of the rented buildings in Ottawa. My judgment is that from this day forward the amount of space required will decrease rather than increase. For instance, in one branch of the Militia Department, nearly 300 employees have been dispensed with in the last two months. The work of co-ordinating the different branches has progressed' to such an extent that they can dispense jvith the services of a great many clerks, and I think that will be true of very many departments of the public service. There is no question that the addition of 140,000 square feet of space will release at least that much rented space and probably very much more than that.


William Frederic Kay: I understood my hon. friend to say that the Parliament buildings would not be completed for the session to be held in January, 1919. Does he know when they will be completed?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: We have had expert evidence from about twenty-five hon. gentlemen here this evening, and there was such an extreme disagreement among them that I would not like to venture an opinion, hut I think I would be safe in saying to my hon. friend that if he lives-and I hope he will-until the session which will probably begin in January, 1920, he will have a seat in the new House.


William Frederic Kay: Has my hon. friend considered the possibility of using this Museum for office space when we have vacated it? If the Parliament buildings are ready for use in January, 1920, we would vacate it, I think, early in the spring of 1919, and it would be available for office space.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That depends very largely on my hon. friends. You know that undeT our system of Government it is the Opposition that determines the length of sessions, and if my hon. friends want to get away early in the spring of 1919 they will not find any objection from this side of the House.


Jacques Bureau: We have had bad examples in the past.


Samuel William Jacobs: We are not an Opposition; we are merely friendly critics.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have not considered the possibility of using this building for office space, but I think the suggestion is well worthy of consideration, I see no reason why all this space, in time of war and for some time thereafter, should not be occupied as office space until such time as we can get more permanent quarters elsewhere.
Harfoours and Rivers-St. John Harbour, improvements, $260,000.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: This item is full of
reminiscences, full of thoughts of past great men, or at least great men who have passed out of this House.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Not passed away, by
any means.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: There .were two set
speeches that we always used to get upon any item relating to the harbour at St. John. They were magnificently well-framed and well-delivered speech of the present Governor of New Brunswick, Mr. Pugsley, and the effective reply of the distinguished gentleman, Mr. Hazen, who is now the Chief Justice of the province. Whenever we heard the one, we were positively certain to hear the other. And to-night I am saddened by
the thought that we shall not hear the one or the other.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: We will keep away from Courtney bay to-night.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I remember distinctly
that the last time an item of this kind was up for consideration, just for devilment, so to speak, I took issue with the gentleman who is now the Chief Justice of New Brunswick by telling him that there was no harbour in St, John at all, it was only the place where there was a continuous battle royal going on between the St. John river and the bay of Fundy. I would like to ask the Minister of Public Works on what battle front he proposes spending this money?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I will be just as frank with my hon. friend as he has been with me. I have a slight recollection of those set speeches to which he has referred; they were always well-worded, and they always arrived at the same destination. One sure thing is, I am not going to land in Courtney bay to-night. I am sorry to say I cannot fell my hon. friend (Mr. McKenzie) exactly where this money will be expended, or whether it will be expended at all. There was an appropriation of a million dollars in the Estimates last year for the harbour of St. John, and when I assumed office a contract awaited signature for the construction of a breakwater between the end of the present breakwater and Partridge Island, which would have cost three-quarters of a million dollars. I did not feel that I was justified, in view of the present financial stringency, in going on with that work. I decided that in so far as it was possible I was going to retrench to the very last dollar, and il did not know of any place that would 'be as good a place to start that policy as at home. Therefore, I refused to sign that contract. Now there is a very great deal of agitation that that work should go on. There is also a great deal of agitation that work shall go on in the remainder of the harbour; and I tell the committee frankly that I am not in a position to-night to state exactly in what portion Df the harbour this money will be expended, or whether it will be expended at all. I sincerely hope it will. I hope things may be so arranged that we will be able to expend at least that amount of money, but I want to assure my hon. friends that if it is exrpended' it will be on behalf of the transportation interests of the country and not to carry out anybody's pet schemes or theory.


Arthur Bliss Copp: And not on force account
either.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: And not on force account either.
Quebec Harbour, Champlain Dry Dock, $356,000. '


Mr. LAVIGUEUR:: Is if the intention of the Government to proceed -with the work of the Quebec dry dock?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This work is at Lauzon, but I christened it the Champlain dry dock. I thought it was very fitting that a big dry dock at that portion of the river St. Lawrence should bear the name of the great explorer.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Champlain is also
somewhat of a New Brunswick name.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is true, Champlain was in New Brunswick before he went to what is now the city of Quebec. I may say that the work is practically completed; it merely requires' some finishing touches, although of course, it will take some time to finish up many of the details. This is simply the item which it is estimated will finish up the work and pay the draw-hack and other items in connection with it. I do not mean to say by any means that the sum of 1355,000 will be required for the new work. There is still a large amount of drawback in the hands of the Government, and to complete whatever is required will take the large amount of money estimated.
Mr. LEMIEUX; From what quarry is the stone taken for this work?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am informed that the granite comes from Megantic. I do not know that there is very much stone used in the dry dock. I was there in December -some question having arisen between the Government and the Davy Shipbulding Company over the purchase of land, and spent half a day on the work. I was veTy much interested in the amount of work completed, and also in- the magnificent dry dock I found there. It is practically a concrete dock. and. I do not think there will be very much granite or stone of any kind used in its construction. I was informed, however, that whatever granite was used came from Megantic.


Mr. POWER:: Can the minister tell me
whether the price of the land is included in this vote or the amounts previously spent?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I can only say that the price of the land is included in the amount

*
previously given, but what that amount was I am not in a position to state at the present time. This estimate is intended,, or expected at least, to entirely cover and pay off everything. which will remain to be paid, in order to finish the dry dock with its power plant,pumping arrangements and everything in connection with it.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I think it is very important that the work should be proceeded with as soon as possible, because I was told yesterday by Mr. Davy, who happened to be in Ottawa, that the partial blowing-up of the Halifax dry dock would 'bring a lot of ship repairing business to Quebec ini fact, that the shipyards of Quebec and Montreal would have to look after mostly all the business of ship repairing in the Gulf of St. Lawrence.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I hope that my hon.
friend, or any other members' of the House-either, will not get the idea that the Halifax dry dock is out of commission. That dock was put out of commission by the explosion which occurred last winter, and I may as well state here, and I am. glad to-have the opportunity of doing so, that the Minister of Railways and Canals and myself spent three or four days- in the city of Halifax after the explosion. At that time there were eight or nine ships in the harbour which would have to enter the dry dock, and we -at once entered into negotiations with the owners, the dry dock being a private institution. The owners claimed that they were unable to finish the dock, and would not finish it. They wanted us to buy it, which we did not feel like doing, and we started in to make repairs. The owners are to pay towards the cost the amount of their insurance, which is 111,000, and we are putting up the balance, an amount which will not be very great.
However, the first thing was to get, this dock in commission, and it has been in commission for nearly two months. The ship that was in. it was repaired and sent out, and I believe that another has since been taken in, repaired and sent out. The Halifax dry dock, therefore, is operating just as it was a year ago. But that does not obviate the necessity of placing the Champlain dry dock in commission at the earliest possible moment; in fact, it could be operated almost immediately. This dock is in two compartments: there is a gate in the centre which can he closed so that one end may be used as a dry dock and the other to contain water, or vice versa. The outer section could be, and, I imagine,

is,	being used to-day. In addition to that, we have the old dry dock, which has ansvyered the purposes of the St. Lawrence during the last twenty or twenty-five years. I can assure my hon. friends that the work will be pushed forward as rapidly as possible, and will be entirely completed within a few months.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I ishould like to know what the policy of the Government is in the matter of building dry docks. Do we own a dry dock at Esquimalt?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, and one at Kingston .


Rodolphe Lemieux: The dry dock at Esquimalt was passed over from the Imperial Government to the Dominion.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I am not aware that the Government owns any dry docks on the Atlantic coast.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No. The Government has no particular policy with regard to the construction of dry docks except that which is embodied in the Dry Dock Subsidies Act, which was passed in 1908 or 1909 and subsequently amended. The dimensions of a first-class dry dock have been increased to 1,150 feet in length, and a guarantee of interest is provided at 41 per cent for a period of thirty-five years on an amount not exceeding $4,500,000.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Attempts have been made by different Ministers of Public Works to make the Dry Dock Subsidies Act more attractive than it was .at the beginning, but so far no business concern has taken advantage of its .provisions. If the Government are going into the business of build-dry docks, private companies 11 p.m. will not fake advantage of this Act, [because they would then come into competition with the Government. I suppose there is not much use in suggesting any large public expenditure just now, but I wish to point out that the harbour of Sydney, with its proximity to Newfoundland and its importance in connection with trans-Atlantic traffic, is becoming a great shipping and commercial centre. But, excepting a marine railway, no facilities have been provided there to take care of ships. I understand that the matter has been discussed in the other House by Senator McLennan, who comes from practically the same place that I do. I should like the enterprising Minister of Public Works to take into consideration the
fact that we have great need for a dry dock in that part of the country, particularly in view of the presence there of large steel works; and I hope that he will remember this, if the policy of building dry docks is to be carried out by the Government.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I appreciate everything my hon. friend has said about the harbour of Sydney. It is certainly a very beautiful sheet of water, especially in summer, and I hope that some enterprising citizen or citizens in that part of Nova Scotia will come forward with a business proposal under the Dry Dock Subsidies Act. If they do, I assure him, they will receive every encouragement that the department can give them. The same applies to similar proposals which might be made in other parts of the country. A floating dry dock has been built under the Dry Dock Subsidies Act by the Vickers people in Montreal.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: That was imported from the Old Country?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes. Another floating dock which was brought from the Old Country, has been built at Prince Rupert under the Dry Dock Subsidies Act. I think these are the only two which have been built under that Act. However, the Act is there, and it is open 'to any body of capitalists who wish to invest some of their own money -in these public enterprises to take advantage of its provisions. I should like to inculcate a spirit of giving into some of the capitalists of Canada. I have watched them very carefully during the last fourteen or fifteen years, and I have observed on their part a great willingness to receive public money; I hope that I can now cause them to realize the importance of the duty of giving money to the public. I should like to see these gentlemen put up some of their own money to build these works, accept Government subsidies, and become real patriots. By doing this they would build up a better public sentiment than we have in Canada at present. I do not say that the Government will or will not adopt any particular policy with regard to the construction of these docks, but I throw out the suggestion to many capitalists who have grown wealthy during the last three or four years, that they come along with a real business proposal for the construction of dry docks in the large centres of Canada.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The Vickers people
have been very enterprising. I happen to know that firm- because their works are

located in my new constituency of Maison-neuve. Although they had invested a large amount of money, for many years they did little work. Since the war began, however, they have been fortunate, and at the same time they have rendered valuable service to the British Admiralty. During the first year of the war I saw there two or three cruisers which had taken part in the famous naval engagement off the Falkland Islands. The Vickers have been growing and developing, and I daresay they have , to-day one of the largest shipyards on the North American continent.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: They come within the class of men whom I should like to see doing business in this line.


Rodolphe Lemieux: May I call attention to the danger which exists of our crippling the shipyards of Canada if we apply not only the spirit but the letter of the new Order in Council concerning conscription to employees of ship-building establishments? Conscription is the law, it is true, and must be obeyed. But I was speaking yesterday to a prominent shipbuilder who was at a loss to understand how the Government could deprive his shipyard of from one hundred to two hundred of his hands-riveters, heaters, riggers, shipwrights, plumbers, furnace men, boilermakers, draughtsmen.
Although it seems rather easy for any one to become a heater or a riveter, yet this shipbuilder was explaining to me that it took not months merely, but several years of training for a man to become a good heater or a good riveter. I beg to draw the attention of the Government to the necessity of protecting, I shall not say the shipbuilding of the country, but the shiprepairing that will take place during the months to come. I was just mentioning the case of one or two cruisers which took part in the engagement at the Falkland Islands and which were repaired at Vickers during the first year of the war. Since then, this has not been made public, but the Vickers Company in Montreal and the Davy Company in Quebec have done a quantity of work for the Imperial Government; they have built submarines, destroyers, chasers and trawlers. They have contracts with the Imperial Government, the Dominion Government and the governments of the Allied countries. They have cancelled some contracts which they had with neutral govern-meats. We should treat this question as business men and see to it that this industry

is not crippled at this very crucial moment of the war.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I quite appreciate what my hon. friend states. I realize the importance of those shipyards, as I had the pleasure of going through them in December last. I was very much impressed with the evidence of business which I saw there. I shall be glad to call the attention of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, and the Minister of Militia and Defence to the statement made by my hon. friend this evening.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: What is the total cost of the Champlain dTy dock, including land?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Speaking roughly, about 83,400,000.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: On the 25th of March the minister, in answer to a question of mine, stated that the cost of the dry dock was $3,077,460.28.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: My hon. friend probably was not in a few minutes ago, when an item o-f $355,000 was passed by the committee to take care of work that has yet to be done, the drawback and things of that kind. I am speaking roughly, but the total cost of the work will be around $3,400,000.


Mr. PARENT:: This amount of money is very well spent. For years past, I remember, the shipping interests have made every effort with the Government to secure a dry dock to accommodate big ships, should an accident occur. Special efforts were made after the disaster to the Bavarian, a large ship which was coming near Quebec when an accident happened, and which could not be repaired on account of lack of a dry dock to accommodate it. Quebec now affords possibly the best harbour in the world, comprising an area of about twelve square miles with a depth of water of about 150 feet. There is no other port in Canada that can boast of having such a fine harbour as that of Quebec. Will the minister express his opinion as to the possibility of utilizing such a nice harbour as Quebec harbour as a free port?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am afraid my hon. friend is asking me to answer something which I would not feel in a position to answer. I have not given the matter any study. Possibly at some future time I might give him a more studied opinion upon it.
Quebec Harbour-River St. Charles-improvements to navigation, $15,0'00.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: Has the contract
placed with Quinlan and Robertson, of Quebec, been cancelled?

Mr. CARVELfL: The contract has not formally been cancelled, but the works were closed down early in the summer of 1917, and, I think I am safe in saying, with the consent of the contractors and of the Government as well. The contractors have been paid, off practically everything coming to them, and this $15,000 it is hoped will be sufficient to settle up the matter to date. The contract has not been cancelled and closed up because Quinlan and Robertson, like many other contractors in Canada, are claiming they are entitled to compensation for the closing down of the work. They base their claim on various grounds which, perhaps, it would not be proper to discuss here. There is the closing down of the work, and they want us tc buy their plant, and so on. Those matters have not yet been settled, but I hope they will be in the near future. This item is purely for the purpose of paying them the amount of money which we believe will be due to them when the accounts are finally straightened .out. It is only an estimate; the amount may be more, it may be less.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: If I ask this question, it is because last year it was rumoured that Quinlan & Robertson had made a demand on the Government to cancel the contract. The Quebec Board of Trade, also the Quebec City Council, at the time interviewed the Hon. Mr. Sevigny, who stated that a demand had been made to the Government, but that the matter had not been settled and that the work would go on without interruption.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I entered the department only in the month of October, and I really do not know what decisions. were arrived at before that date. If that was the policy early in the summer of 1917, there must have been a change of policy before October, because I know it has not, since the month of October, been the policy of the department to proceed with the work.


Rodolphe Lemieux: When did Air. Sevigny make the promise?


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: Last spring.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There must have been a change of policy during the summer.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: Is the minister aware that the city of Quebec, to obtain the work on the St. Charles river, made considerable sacrifices in placing a contract with the Government, and that the work was to be proceeded with without interruption?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am not aware of that, and I want to say to my hon. friend that we have hot by any means abandoned the work. It was simply not considered strictly essential work during the present financial stringency. My hon. friend from West Quebec (Mr. Parent) has just boasted of the splendid facilities of the harbour of Quebec, all of which is true, and as this was intended to take care of local shipping more than of ocean-going shipping, it was felt it would not be justifiable to spend a large amount of money under present conditions. I have always understood that the construction of those works would be of very great advantage to the city of Quebec in providing a great trunk sewage system. However, that does not play a very great part probably. I can only say that the work has not been abandoned; it has simply been closed down, and I hope the time will come when it can be finished. Many other works in Canada are in just the same position.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: Have precautions been taken to preserve the work already done?	'


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Every precaution has
been taken.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: I understood the
minister to say that this work was not of very great importance to Quebec. On the contrary, it is of first-rate importance. The city has already spent $200,000 for a market along,the St. Charles river, but we cannot use it until this work is completed.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I quite appreciate that, but if my hon. friend sits here for the next fortnight and listens to these estimates being discussed he will see that these same conditions prevail in practically every city in Canada. In the next item, for instance, for the Toronto Harbour Works, he will find we have applied the axe much more vigorously than we did in Quebec. There is no doubt that there are local reasons in ' all these places why these works should go on, but we have tried as far as possible to apply the same rule on all public woras in Canada, unless they are absolutely essential for war purposes.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I would point out to the minister that altogether some $700,000 has been spent on improvements to the river St. Charles, and that to preserve the work that has been done we are spending less than $15,000, because I understand that out of this $15,000 a certain amount goes to the contractor.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Practically all of it goes to the contractor if it is found on settling the accounts that it is due him. We are not voting any money in this item for protecting the works.
Toronto Harbour improvements, $550,000.


George Green Foster: I just heard the minister say that he had applied the axe pretty well all over Canada in regard to public works. I think he applied it too vigorously to the Toronto Harbour improvements. I think he will remember that late last fall he visited the harbour of Toronto, and while I was not able to accompany him on that inspection I understood from the mayor that the minister was impressed with the necessity of a large expenditure this year t)o protect the work .already done. The minister knows that the Harbour Commission proposes to spend about $13,000,000, the city of Toronto about $2,000,000 and thp Public Works Department about $6,000,000, altogether about $21,000,000. There has already been expended on these improvements between the -Government, the 'city, and the Harbour Commission, some $7,000,000. I think the minister will remember that a few days ago he was adlvised of the condition of the harbour toy telegram from the mayor and the Harbour Commissioner spoke to him of the possible loss of a great amount of property. 'The commissioner said that it was our duty to call the attention of the Minister of Public Works to the destruction of a large part of the shore property, the cellars in houses facing the shore being flooded by the heavy storms from the southeast which had. washed the shore away. What 'the minister's answer was I do not know, but I do know, after the millions that have been spent on thbse improvements, it is necessary for the minister to be more generous and bring down a revote for a large amount to protect the work that has been done. Take, for instance the work that has been done in the west part of the city, from the Humber east to the Island, and then continuing to Munroe park-a frontage of some six miles on which the Government has undertaken to build a breakwater to protect the harbour and the shore. To the west, the crib-work is down to the zero level and now it is necessary to place the cement structures on that to prevent the storms from destroying the shore, but I understand that not sufficient money has been granted for that purpose. If the land is not protected to the west there is danger of the work that has already been done-such as filling in

along the shore-at an expenditure of some millions, being destroyed. Then we come to the Island shore, which is: partly protected, but to the west of the island again last year the shore was awash right up to the buildings' and some of the splendid residences there were in danger; the sidewalks were washed and gas pipes were affected, and the city had to put up some temporary cribs to protect the shore for the time being. Then we come to the east. This year, on account of the high water and the storms, a great deal of the shore property has been destroyed already, and the. Harbour Commission and the city council say it is up to the Minister of Public Works to do something at once to protect the shore. iSurely the minister after his inspection of these improvements and after admitting the splendid work that has been done anid the necessity for protecting it, will bring down a more generous grant for protecting that work. Then we have what is called the ship channel. You come in at the eastern entrance. Last year that work had to be pulled to pieces, some $800,000 worth of work. Changes are now being made and there is a great necessity for that work being completed -also. The Harbour Commission has reclaimed some two or three hundred acres of land at a cost of some millions of dollars, and we have located there some of the largest in-[DOT] dustries in America and there is a demand for more sites; but if the Government is not going to- protect the work that has already been done and is now under way it will not be possible "to carry on the work to advantage. It is a disadvantage alike to the Harbour Commission, the city of Toronto and the Government-the three parties concerned in the proposed expenditure of some $21,000,000. Surely, in the face of conditions in Toronto the minister is not going to stop at this, proposed grant of $550,000. I should like to have some expression of the minister's views as to the necessity of doing something to protect the work that has. already been done. Conditions may arise any day whereby millions of dollars worth of work might Ibe destroyed and surely this is too serious a matter to allow to happen for the sake of economy. It is not economy; it is false economy. The minister is. saving half a million dollars' on the expenditure of last year, but his economy may cost him a couple of million dollars. He is taking all the chances imaginable.
The minister must know the position we are in there with our Island. With those southeast storms there is gr^pt danger of

immense destruction, which may occur any day, and after aid this money has been expended, if we are not going to protect that work, I do not see that we can give the minister much credit along the line of economy, when he proposes to save $400,000 or $500,000 compared with the expenditure last year. If the work had been completed it might have been a good economy, but not at this stage. The Harbour Commissioners prepared an estimate of $1,500,000 to $2,000,000 as the cost of this work. The city is going on with its share of that work at a cost of from one-half to three-quarters of a million. If the Harbour Commission of Toronto is going to spend this amount, realizing the necessity of it, surely the Government must see the real necessity of performing their part of the duty which lies upon them. While the minister might have applied the axe advantageously to some other facilities for harbours where there is not that danger of destruction which there is in this case, where the work is partly completed, it might be economy, but in this case it would be false economy to say we are going to forego that expenditure for the sake of conserving large expenditures, because he really knows, having been over the ground and made the inspection, what has been done, the amount expended, and the greatdanger. Realizing that, surely he is not going to leave the city, the Harbour Commissioners and this Government in the position that we are going to take the chance of the destruction of a couple of million dollars' of work. I hope the hon. minister will assure me that, after making his recommendation of half a million dollars, he will supplement that by another half million to protect the money already expended.


Mr. S HEARD :: 
Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I noticed that the hon. gentlemen who speak largely on behalf of the city and harbour of Toronto have touched upon a subject that is an old one in this House as to provincial, Dominion or municipal obligations. We from the different parts of the country have been very exacting in our demands for public moneys for public purposes, but I must remind my hon. friend that we never went to the extent of asking public money for the digging of cellars and putting of walls around houses. The hon. gentleman tells us tonight we must be careful to protect the walls of the houses in the city of Toronto, to see that the sidewalks in Toronto are not interfered with, and that the end of the sewer pipes are well protected by the Minister of Public Works.


Charles Sheard: As promised.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The hon. gentleman
may not understand the situation, but in the province from which I come we have had experience in matters somewhat akin to this. We have seen the public road's being eaten away by the action of the tide along certain portions of Nova Scotia, but the people here, whichever government was in power, absolutely refused to give us any money to protect the roads along the harbours in Nova Scotia. They said, "That is a local matter; if it is affecting a town or city, it is a matter the town or city must look after; it is a municipal affair, and you will not get Dominion money for it." If it was outside of a town, the provincial government would have to look after it. as they held it was a provincial matter.
I am simply drawing the attention of the minister to this. If, by any false understanding of the position of the Department of Public Works, or by false kindness or by excessive zeal, the predecessor of the present minister in the kindness of his heart, and in return for favour lavished upon hitn fbom a political standpoint by the city of Toronto, has undertaken to point the walls of the different houses, put sewer pipes under the houses, and generally look after them all round-put them to bed



and cuddle the clothes around them-I think he has gone too far, and that the present minister, particularly in war time, has enough to look after to protect the harbour because it is public property and supposed to be, and is no doubt, for the general benefit of the Government at large. But when it comes to fixing sidewalks, putting foundations under houses, and seeing that they have a proper system of sewage, I draw the line and protest against the moneys of Canada being used in that way for Toronto or any other city.


George Green Foster: II think the hon. gentleman (Mr. McKenzie) quite misunderstands me, and I am sorry for it. I thought I made it quite clear. It may be the hon. gentleman does not understand the situation, he may think the city is asking for favours from this Government. The city is asking for no favours from the hon. Minister of Public Works or any other minister, it is only asking that the Government carry out their undertaking. And we are not asking them to build sewers or point foundations; I made no such statement. I am surprised the hon. gentleman makes such assertion, trying to mislead the House, suggesting that I was. not familiar with the necessities, and that I made a statement I did not make. I said that, on account of this wash which is caused through there being no protection, damage was done. As I understand it, the lake shore is owned by the Dominion, and not by the provincial government. The in-shores are owned by the provincial government, but the lake shores which stop at the Island, are owned by the Dominion.
' Mr. MeKENZIE: In so far as they are used for shipping purposes, but not beyond that.


George Green Foster: The Government has already spent large amounts there to protect the shore. The eribwork is ready for the concrete construction to prevent the wash on the shore, to save the shore, and to save this property I speak of, and which the hon. member for Toronto South spoke of three weeks ago. Our city engineer tells us the responsibility is with this Government, and the Minister of Public Works- whether he is right or not, I do not know, but I think he knows what his responsibilities are,-knows we are asking for no favours. We are not asking for something unbecoming a great city. We are not suggesting the frivolous things spoken of by the hon. member for Cape Breton 
North and Victoria (Mr. McKenzie). After the minister's inspection, I think he will understand my explanation and he will appreciate the fact that the west shore of the Island is affected by these heavy storms. He understands from the work they have already done the great necessity of further work to protect what our engineers tell us would be a very heavy damage for which the Government would be responsible. Surely it is false economy for the Government to make this small grant when there may be a further damage of a couple of million of dollars. I hope I have made myself clear to the minister.


Charles Sheard: In order to remove the impression that appears to have taken possession of the hon. gentleman opposite, I wish to tell him that there are no sewers anywhere near, and I think I am correct in saying that these inroads have been largely made upon the Government property adjacent to and immediately west of the Government light-house and the Government light-house property. It is true that a gas main runs along that right of way which, I believe, is a Government road. The water has washed away the foundations of the gas main. As to the eastern portion to which I referred, I believe the Government have a breakwater already partially under way, and at that particular point it is intended to protect the lake shore. The storms have been exceedingly severe, and they have cut into the roadways to a very unusual extent. I mention these facts in order that hon. gentlemen opposite may be quite assured that we are not seeking particular favours for the city of Toronto, however much we might feel entitled to consideration-I may say that we have never received very much either from the Department of Public Works or from any other department of the Government in so far as I am aware.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have no fault to find with the statements made by the hon. gentlemen who represent the city of Toronto, excepting that my hon. friend from East York (Mr. Foster) must have been misinformed when he said that I told the mayor anything, because I have never spoken to the mayor of Toronto in my life. 1 never saw Mayor Church.


George Green Foster: Not on the inspection?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: He was not there, and I did not advertise the fact that I was going to Toronto.


George Green Foster: You were there?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: 
Mr. MANION:: What is this amount for?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It is required for dredging under contract at Port Arthur, repairs to revetment wall, Grand Trunk Pacific basin, Port Arthur, harbour surveys, and so on. It is for the ordinary harbour works which we believe are absolutely necessary to take care of the grain business.


Robert James Manion: Is this dredging to be done in the Canadian Northern basin at Fort William, or is it for the removal of lot 10P


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There is an item for the removal of a portion of lot 10.


Robert James Manion: What about the turning basin above the Canadian Northern dock?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It is intended to go on with that.
Vancouver Harbour-improvements, $150,00'0.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No new works are being undertaken in Vancouver or Victoria harbours. This amount is chiefly for a second shed on one of the big wharves at Vancouver, and to complete wharves now under construction. The amount for Victoria is for the purpose of building a wharf and closing uip the present scheme.
Progress reported.
On the motion of Hon. Mr. Carvell the House adjourned at 12.04 a.m. (Thursday).
Thursday, April 25, 1918.