1918-05-20

MR. MAIN JOHNSON.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. N. W. ROWELL (President of the Council) laid on the Table copy of Order in Council, passed under the War Measures Act, with reference to the appointment of Mr. Main Johnson.

[Stage Direction]
First Report of the Munition Resources Commission.-Hon. Mr. Burrell.

[Stage Direction]
A message from His Excellency the Governor General transmitting Supplementary Estimates for the year ending March/ 31, 1919, was presented by Hon. A. K. Maclean (Acting Minister of Finance), read by Mr. Speaker to the House, and referred to the Committee of Supply.


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 107, to incorporate The United Canadian Insurance Company .-Mr. Stevens.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. RODOLPHE LEMIEUX:: I have a question to put which is of some urgency, and as the Minister of Labour is not in his seat perhaps onh of the other ministers might reply. The strike at Winnipeg seems to have developed into serious proportions, all the public services of the city being practically in a state of collapse. Is the Government in a position to say what measures have been taken to prevent the strike spreading; whether a compulsory investigation under the Industrial Disputes Act has been applied for, and if so, will it be granted?


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: 
Robert Laird Borden: I do not wish
my hon. friend to understand that the Government have not been making any efforts to end the strike. My hon. friend the Minister of Labour (Mr. Crothers) has, in every possible way, lent his services to composing the differences which have arisen. More than that, on Friday evening last, I addressed a personal appeal to the head of the Trades and Labour Council in Winnipeg. I have not a copy of it before me at the moment, but later on in the day, if I have the opportunity, I shall bring it down and make the House acquainted with its terms. It is perfectly true that the Government has not seen its way clear to act upon some of the suggestions which have been presented to us but, apart from that, every effort that could possibly be made by conciliatory methods to compose this difficulty has been made. I hope my hon. friend will realize that. Further, it is hoped that, to-day or tormorrow, some more effective effort can be undertaken.



REPORT ON THE MILLING INDUSTRY.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. NICKLE:: Would the right hon. the leader of the Government (Sir Robert Borden) be disposed to advise the House as to whether or not it is the intention to lay on the Table, before the 'House rises, the report on the milling industry of which my hon. friend the Minister of Labour (Mr. Crothers) spoke some few days ago?


Robert Laird Borden: I will ask the Minister of Labour in regard to it. He has not communicated to me recently on the subject, and I am not in a position to say at the moment.



ABOLITION OF TITLES.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Robert Laird Borden: I do not know whether the intimation was given on Saturday, but I desire now to state that to-morrow we shall resume the debate in regard to the abolition of titles. Perhaps an intimation was given on Saturday to that effect?


William Folger Nickle: My right hon. friend was good enough to tell me that it would be taken up to-morrow.


Robert Laird Borden: Yes, but I do not
know that I made a public statement. I desire now to inform the House that we will take it up to-morrow.



CONSIDERED IN COMMITTEE-THIRD READINGS.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 100, for the relief of David M. Slo:ss.-Mr. Copp.
Bill No. 101, for the relief of Lillie Mabel Billing.-Mr. Mowatt.
Bill No. 102, for the relief of Emily Kathleen Cochrane Lackey-Mr. Fripp.
Bill No. 104, for the relief of Alonzo Jesse Chapman.-Mr. Copp.
No. 105, for the relief of Margaret Bell Charlesworth.-Mr. Fripp.
Bill No. 10.3, for the relief of Alfred Frank Scott.-Mr. Harold.
Progress reported.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are to be indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. CASGRAIN:: How many persons who were candidates against the Union Government at the last election have received appointments from the said said Government, since the said Government assumed office and abolished patronage?


Hon. Mr. BURRELL:: The Government has no record of any such appointments.


REVISING BARRISTER, HANTS COUNTY.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. DuTREMBLAY:
1.	Was Percy Blanchard, of Ellershouse, Revising Barrister,for the Constituency of Hants County in connection with the electoral lists for the last Federal Election?
2.	If so, what amount did he receive as salary and expenses?
3.	Is the said H. Percy Blanchard a practising Barrister of the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia?
4.	If so, where does he practise since going to Ellershouse, to reside?
Hon. Mr. BURRELL:: 1.	Yes.
2.	$82.05.

3.	No information.
4.	No information.


CLAIM OF DR. L. FOIST.
Mr. SEGUIN:: What is the total amount claimed by Dr. L. Foisy for his services as returning officer for the Electoral District of L'Assomption-Mont-calm?	-


Martin Burrell: Personal services, $266. Total claim for expenses of election, $2,937.70.
DEPUTY REGISTRAR KINGSTON, ONT. [DOT]Mr. BROUILLARD:
1.	Has Major H. P. Cooke, Deputy Registrar at Kingston, Ont., any staff of clerks, stenographers, typewriters, messengers, etc., working with or under him, at Kingston, Ont., in connection with the Military Service Act, 1917?
2.	If so, what are the names, addresses and salary of such clerks, stenographers, typewriters and messengers, and nature of their employment, the date of their respective appointment, and is their employment temporary or permanent?
3.	Does the Government, besides paying the salary of said clerks, stenographers, typists and messengers, make or grant any extra allowance for their travelling expenses, either in money grant or railway transportation or passes?
4.	Is it the intention of the Government to increase or reduce such clerical staff?
Hon,. Mr. DOHERTY:
1.	Yes.
2.	All the employment is temporary. List filed with the Clerk of the House.
3.	No travelling expenses, money grant or transportation are paid to any member shown on list of Deputy Registrar's staff. Certain members shown ion the Public Representative's staff, whose duties require it, are furnished with transportation to enable them to attend the sitting of the various tribunals in the district.
4.	The staff fluctuates in numbers as the work increases or decreases. It is and has been reduced immediately the pressure of work permits.
appeal tribunal, brockville.


*Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	Has one G. O. Aiken been appointed to the Appeal Tribunal at Brockville under the Military Service Act, in any capacity?
2.	If so, in what capacity?
3.	Who recommended, or was otherwise responsible for, this appointment?
4.	Was Aiken sent from Kingston to Brockville? If so, why?
5.	Is this the G. O. Aiken who was suspended from his position as Guard by the Warden of Kingston Penitentiary, who was later reinstated and then allowed to resign?
If so, what was the reason for his being suspended?
6.	Why was the new position filled by Aiken's appointment not given to a returned soldier?


Hon. Mr. DOHERTY:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Local public representative at Judge Reynolds' Appeal Tribunal.
3.	This appointment was authorized by the Registrar for the district.
4.	Yes. He knew the district surrounding Brockville thoroughly, a,nd thebe was no other local Brockville man available whto was as generally valuable.
5.	Yes. He was suspended owing to the complaint of a convict that he had used unbecoming language to him and had prevented him from performing work that another guard had ordered him to do.
6.	There was no returned soldier on the list of applicants. Aiken's place as guard was filled by the transfer (of R. C. Morris from the staff of watchmen.


J. B. PAQUET.
Mr. BOURASSA:: 1.	Has Mr. Laparre. Marsan, Chief of Police of LCvis, received from the Government, instructions to dismiss J. B. Paquet, of Lfrvis, Who was a watchman at the Lauzon Dock, and to replace him by one of his own friends?
2.	If so, for what reason was J. B. Paquet dismissed?
3.	If not, will this man be reinstated?


Hon. Mr. OARVELL:: I think the hon.
member will bave to change the question, because I cannot understand what it means. The hon. gentleman asks if Mr. Laparre Marsan, Chief of Police of Levis, received from the Government instructions to dismiss J. B. Paquet, of Levis, who was a watchman at the Lauzon Dry Docks. The Chief of Police of Levis has nothing to do with the men employed at the Lauzon Dock.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Stand.


BISHOP FALLON'S MISSION.
*Mr. BROUILLARD:: ,
1.	Concerning the official visit of His Lordship Bishop Fallon to the front, is the Government aware that His Lordship is also going to Rome?
2.	Are the trip expenses of His Lordship to both the front and Rome being paid by the ' Government ?
3.	If so, what amount has been paid to His Lordship ?


Hon. Mr. BURRELL:: 1.	No.
2.	Please siee answers- already given on May 1, pp. 1351 and 1352, Unrevised Hansard.
3.	Nothing has yet been paid by this department.


ARMY MEDICAL CORPS.
Mr. MURPHY:: Referring to the following item in John Bull, of March 2, 1918 :-

"There is serious discontent among the Quartermaster ranks in the Canadian Army Medical Corps. A number of the men who have been in the Army since war broke out are still Honorary Lieutenants-whereas fresh men from Canada, who have never seen Service, arrive with the rank of Honorary Captain or Honorary Major. This is grossly unfair, and we are taking the matter up with Ottawa."
1.	Have any representations been made to the Government regarding the alleged discontent in the Canadian Army Medioal Corps?
2.	If so, what action has been taken in the matter?
3.	Has the Government received' any other complaint regarding the Overseas Medical Service?


Hon. Mr. BURRELL:: 1.	No.
2 and 3. Answered by No. 1.


IMPERIAL, CONFERENCE.
[Stage Direction]
I'M r. ARCHAMiBAULT:
1.	Who are the members of the Government who will go to London this spring to take part in the Conference with the Imperial Authorities?
2.	When will this trip be made?
3.	What are the reasons for this trip?
4.	Can the Government say what questions are going to be discussed in London, and who will act at said conference?
Robert Laird Borden: In reply to the first question an announcement will be made in due course. As to question No. 2 it is deemed inadvisable in the public interest to make any announcement. The answer to the third question is: For the purpose of attending the meetings of the *Imperial War Cabinet and the Imperial Conference. In answer to the fourth question I may say that the subjects for discussion are confidential until after the discussion shall have taken place.


EXEMPTION TRIBUNALS-BONAVENTURE COUNTY.
Mr. MARGIL (Bonaventure):: 1.	What is the total amount paid or payable for the services of the several Exemption Tribunals in the county of Bonaventure?
2.	What amount has been, or is still, payable to each of these tribunals for rent, fees for judges and salaries of other employees?
3.	What are the names and addresses of the persons who have been so paid or to whom amounts are still due?
4.	Whiat amount has been .paid, or is still due, to each of these persons, and for what service?


Hon. Mr. DOHERTY:: 1.	$2,331.71, paid.
2.	All accounts received at this office have been passed for payment.
3 and 4. Tribunal No. 26: Pierre Eerlotte, Ruisseau LeBlanc, services, $105.04; Pierre Ferlotte, Ruisseau LeBlanc, postage, $4.16; A. Arsenault, Bonaventure, services, $161.50;
total, $270.70. Tribunal No. 27: George Gauthier, Matapedia, services, $154; George Gauthier, Matapedia, services, $95; Andre Arsenault, Mataipedia, services, $95; Andre Arsenault, Matapedia, services, $110; Albert Gravel, Matapedia, clerk and interpreter, $102.50; total, $556.50. Tribunal No. 28: J. Narcisse Cyr, Bonaventure, expenses and services, $148.99; Angus N. Campbell, New Richmond, stationery and services, $145- J. P. Gauthier, New Richmond, services and rent, $97; total, $290.99. Tribunal No. 29: W. A. McPherson, Pt. Daniel East, services and expenses, $99.15; Pierre De-raiche, Pt. Daniel East, services and wood, $100; Probin, Jones & Whitman, Pt. Daniel East, stationery, etc., $6.42; total, $205.57. Tribunal No. 30: S. P. Lebel and Chas. Cook, New Carlisle, expenses, services, etc., $526.30; S. P. Lebel and Chas. Cook, New Carlisle, expenses, services, etc., $227; total, $753.30. Tribunal No. 31: F. L. Cullen, Carleton, services, $65; H. J. E. Martin, Carleton, services and expenses, $122.70; T. B. Clapperton, Carleton, services and expenses, $56.95; total, $244.65. Cannot say what amounts are due, as no accounts have been received.
Lt. Col. GEORGE GILLESPIE.


Mr. PROULX:: 1.	Is Lt. Colonel George Gillespie, of Kingston in the employ of the Department of Militia?
2.	If so, what is the nature of his employment?
3.	What salary does he receive?
4.	How much has he received to date for salary or remuneration, and for living and travelling expenses?
Major-General MEWBURN:
1.	Yes.
2.	Holds appointment of organizer and inspector of Cadet Corps, Military * District No. 3, and assists the General Staff Officer and D.A.A. and Q.M.G. at District Headquarters when necessary.
3.	Pay and allowances, $8.25 per diem.
4.	Total amount received from date of appointment, 1st April, 1913, to 30th April, 1918 (5 years), $15,468.20.


WAR COUNCIL.
[Stage Direction]
* Mr. ARCHAMBAULT:
1.	Who are the members of the Cabinet who constitute the War Council?
2.	How often has said Council been convened since lot January, 1918?
Hon. N. W. ROWELL:: 1. The names of the members of the War Committee of ithe Cabinet are given, in Order in Council (P. C. 3005) of 23rd October, 1917, which was laid on the table of

the House at the opening of the session, by a subsequent Order in 'Council the Eight Hon. Sir George Foster, Minister of Trade and Commerce, was added to the Committee.
2. Twenty-five before the opening of the session. Since then the regular meetings of the committee have been merged in those of the Cabinet. A few special meetings have been held.


HON. SENATOR SCHAFFNER.
Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	Was Dr. Schaffner, now senator, employed in any capacity at Oamp Hughes or since the camp closed ?
2.	If so, what was his rank?
3.	What salary did he draw?
4.	What Separation Allowance did he draw?
5.	What was the total amount he drew?
6.	Is he still employed, and in what capacity?
.Major-General MEWBUEN:
1.	Yes. He was employed in Military Hospital at Camp Hughes from 19th May, 1916, and: later took over duties of Sanitary Officer >at the same camp. On November 1, 1916, he was appointed, temporarily, as a Deputy Assistant Director, Medical Services (sanitation) at Headquarters', Military District No. 10, Winnipeg, with the proviso that he be replaced by another officer when absent on parliamentary duties. On 10t-h October, 1917, he was detailed for special duty to supervise medical hoards under the Military Service Act, and was relieved from further military duty on the 28th February, 1918.
2.	This officer has held the rank o.f Captain in the Army Medical Corps since his appointment, .and was- granted the temporary rank of Major whilst superintending duties of medical boards' under the Military Service Act, .as noted1 in reply to question 1. He relinquished the temporary rank of Major on the 28th February, 1918.
3.	The pay and allowances of his rank.
4.	$40 per month.
5.	$200, total amount of separation -allowance received.
6- This officer is not now employed in any military capacity.
DAM AT GRAND'MEKE?


Mr. DECHENE:: 1.	Has the Government awarded to the Daurentide Company, Limited, of Grand'iMAre, a contract for the erection of a dam on the St. Maurice river, at Grandi'MSre?
2.	If so, what is the amount, and what are the terms of said contract?


Hon. Mr. CARVELL:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


REV. C. W. GORDON.
Mr. J. H. SINCLAIR:: 1.	When did (Rev.) C. W. Gordon, of Winnipeg, receive his appointment as a Chaplain in the Canadian Expeditionary Forces?
2.	What is his rank and rate of pay?
3.	Was he .on the .pay-roll of the Canadian Forces in the months of October, November and December, 1917?
4.	If so, how much was he paid during the said three months, including travelling and living expenses?
5.	Is he still attached to the Canadian Expeditionary Forces, and, if so, in what capacity ?
Major-General MEWBURN:
1.	30th April, 1915.
2.	Honorary Major:; pay of rank.
3.	Yes.
4.	$1,530.08.
5.	He is still on. strength of C. E. F., and detailed for special duty:
ANNUAL REPORT ON PENITENTIARIES. Mr.-EDWARDS:
1.	When was the manuscript of the Report of the Inspectors of Penitentiaries for the year 1916-17 received at the Printing Bureau?
2.	When will the said report be ready for distribution to members?
3.	What is the reason for the delay in submitting this report to Parliament?


Martin Burrell: >
1.	Not yet.
2.	As soon as printed.
3.	Partly owing to delay in getting corrected statistics from some of the institutions, and partly due to temporary illness of the inspector that restricted his services to more urgent and necessary routine work.
VICTORY LOAN-PAYMENTS TO BANKS. *Mr. MURPHY:
What amounts were paid each of the Canadian Banks in connection with the Victory Loan?


Hon. A. K. MACLEAN:: Bank of Montreal, $141,043.76; Bank of Nova Scotia, $57,299.03; Bank of British North America, $42,900.82; Bank of Toronto, $44,076.19; Mol-sons Bank, $35,260.96; La Banque Nation-ale, $17,630.50; Merchants Bank of Canada, $61,706.66; La Banque Provinciale, $8,815.26; Union Bank of Canada, $44,076.19; Canadian Bank of Commerce, $132,228.52; Royal Bank of Canada, $113,819.67; Dominion Bank, $52,891.43; Bank of Hamilton, $26,445.73; Standard Bank of Canada, $30,093.65; La Banque D'Hochelaga, $35,260.96; Bank of Ottawa, $35,260.96; Imperial Bank of Canada, $61,706.66; Hons* Bank of Canada, $17,165.91; Northern Crown Bank, $12,600.94; Sterling Bank of Canada, $10,715.12;

Weyburn Security Bank, $3,396.72; total, $984,395.64.
Mr. J. P. JAFPRAT.


Mr. EULEE:: 1.	Is J. P. Jaffray an officer of the Canadian
Immigration Department in the city of Philadelphia?	.
2.	If so, what is his salary?
3.	What are his duties?
4.	How many immigrants did he secure for Canada in 1917?
5.	Does the Government believe the results of his work justify the retention of his services?
6.	Is the Government aware that the said J. P. Jaffray has regularly contributed and is still contributing offensive and partisan political article to the Galt Reporter?


Hon. Mr. CALDER:: 1.	Yes.
2.	$2,000 per annum.
3.	Canadian Government agent and inspector of immigration at Philadelphia.
4.	It is impossible to say how many immigrants came to Canada as a result of the work of Mr. Jaffray.
5.	Yes.
6.	No.


RIDEAU CANAL.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. REID (Mackenzie).
1.	What was the total tonnage of freight carried on the Rideau Canal during the year ending March 31, 1918?
2.	What is the total number of employees in connection with the operation of above-mentioned canal?
3.	What is the total number of passenger boats passing through or operating on said canal?
4.	What tolls are charged for freight boats?
5.	What tolls are charged for passenger boats?
6.	What tolls are charged on motor boats or motor launches for pleasure purpose?
7.	How many locks are in the canal, how many lock-keepers, and how are they hired, by the month or year?
8.	What is the total cost of repairs chargeable to canal for year ending March 31, 1918, also in 1917?
9.	What is the total revenue derived by Government from operation of Rideau Canal in year ending March 31, 1918?
Hon. J. D. REID:: 1.	84,549 tons.
2.	90.
3.	4.
4.	5 and 6. All canals are free of tolls in Canada.
7.	49 locks, 24 lockmasters, 51 lock labourers. Lockmasters1 are employed the year round. Lock labourers are employed for season of navigation only.
8.	Expenditure on account repairs for year ending March 31, 1917, $71,498.90; expenditure on account repairs for year ending March 31, 1918, $67,801.81.
9.	Total revenue for year ending March 31, 1918, $9,006.65.
Mr. ROBERT FOWLER.


Mr. BROUILLARD:: 1.	At what date was Mr. Robert Fowler, Assistant Deputy Postmaster General, appointed in the Civil Service?
2.	What was his salary for the following fiscal years, 1913, 1914, 1915, 1916, 1917?
3.	Has Mr. Robert Fowler been recommended for an increase of salary during the present fiscal year?
4.	If so, what is the amount of the said increase?	*


Hon. Mr. DOHERTY:: *
1.	June 25, 1910.
2.	For fiscal year commencing April 1, 1913: From April 1, 1913, to November 30,
1913,	at the rate of $1,200; from December 1, 1913, to December 31, 1913, at the rate of $1,600; and from January 1, 1914, to March 31, 1914, at the rate of $2,100.
For fiscal year commencing April 1, 1914: From April 1, 1914, to October 19, 1914, at the rate of $2,100; and1 from October 20,
1914,	to March 31, 1915, at the rate of $2,200. For fiscal year commencing April 1, 1915:
From April 1, 1915, to September 30, 1915, at the rate of $2,200; and from October 1,
1915,	to March 31, 1916, at the rate of $2,800. For fiscal year commencing April 1, 1916:
From April 1, 1916, to September 30, 1916, at the rate of $2,800; and from October 1,
1916,	to March 31, 1917, at the rate of $3,500 For fiscal year commencing 1st April,
1917: From April 1, 1917, to September 30, 191/, at the rate of $3,500, and from October 1, 1917, to March 31, 1918, at the rate of $3,600.
3.	No.	*
4.	Answered by No. 3.


CANADIAN WAR RECORD OFFICE.
Mr. J. H. SINCLAIR:: 1.	How many employees are on the staff of the Canadian War Record Office, London?
2.	What did this branch cost during the calendar year 1917, for salaries, rents, printing and all other disbursements?
Major-General MEWBURN:
1 and 2. This information is not available in Canada, but is being requested, by letter, from the Overseas Military Forces of Canada.


MOTOR BOAT &quot;HELENA&quot;.
Mr. J. H. SINCLAIR:: 1.	What is the size of the Steamboat Helena,
employed by the Customs Department at Sydney, N.S. ?	*
2.	What is her net tonnage?
3.	Will the Government put this Service up for tender?


Hon. Mr. SIFTON:: 1.	The size of the motor-boat Helena is as follows: Length over all, 38 fset 10 inches; length water line, 36 feet; breadth


CIVIL SERVICE LAW.
Mr. BURNHAM:: 1.	When the new Civil Service law takes effect, to whom will the general public address its letters of recommendation for office, etc., where such business is supposed to receive recommendations from no one in particular designated by constituencies for that purpose?
2.	Is there any limit to the correspondence of that sort that may be received?
3.	Will it all be officially replied to?


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: 1. The Civil Service law alluded to provides that persons shall be appointed to the public service after competitive examination. Letters of recommendation, therefore, would not appear to he of any particular use or advantage. If, however, it should be 'desired to send in such letters of recommendation, they might properly be addressed to the Civil Service Commission.
2 and 3. These questions are sufficiently answered by the reply given to No. 1.


MAJOR J. T. N. L'HEUREUX.
Mr. SAVARD:: 1.	Is Major J. T. N. L'Heureux, who has been on active service overseas, still attached to the Canadian Militia?
2.	If not, for what reasons has he been retired?
Major-General MEWBURN:
1.	No.
2.	Major J. T. N. 1'Heureux was retired in consequence of an investigation into matters connected with the 167th Overseas Battalion that showed that this officer's conduct had not been such as to justify his being continued as an officer of the militia.


HERMAN J. DAGER.
Mr. ARTHURS:: 1.	Is there a person named Herman J. Dager, employed in the Preventive Service of the Inland Revenue Department?
2.	If so, when was he appointed, and by whom recommended?
3.	What are his duties?
4.	Is he holding any other position, and what are his salaries?
5.	Where was his birthplace?
6.	Is he a British citizen (a) by birth; (b) by naturalization?


Hon. Mr. SIFTON:: 1. We have one officer of that name appointed as Food Inspector and Deputy Collector of Inland Revenue.
 .
2.	(a) Appointed D5y Collector class " B " October 6, 1898. Nothing on record to show who recommended him as Deputy Collector, (b) as Food Inspector May 6, 1907, recommended by H. R. Framkland, Collector of Inland Revenue, Toronto division.
3.	Assigned to Food and Preventive work for the last three years.
4.	Nothing on record in this department to show that he is holding any other position outside of Deputy Collector, class " B " and Food Inspector as D'y Col. class " B " $1,000. As Food Inspector $500.
5.	Nothing on record).
6.	" Canadian by adoption " is the information given by the return to the department dated October 7, 1898.


THE GRAND TRUNK-HON. CLIFFORD SIFTON.
*Mr. MURPHY:: 1.	Has Sir Clifford Sifton any authority to act in any capacity in England for the Government, or for any member thereof?
2.	Have any communications of any kind been exchanged between the Government, or any member thereof, and Sir Clifford Sifton relative to the acquisition by the Government of the Grand Trunk and the Grand Trunk Pacific Railways? If so, will they be produced?
3.	Has the Government or any member thereof had any communication with any banker, brokers or other financiers in London or New-York relative to the purchase or sale of the Grand Trunk or the Grand Trunk Pacific Railways or of the stock or securities of these railroads? If so, will the correspondence be produced?
4.	Is the Government awaie that at the recent annual meeting of the shareholders of the Grand Trunk Railway Company in London, the Canadian Government was denounced for its intended confiscation of the Grand Trunk Railway? If so, what steps have been taken by the Government to correct this misapprehension?
5.	Has the Government any knowledge of the sale or purchase of Grand Trunk stock or securities prior to or since the date of the said annual meeting of shareholders? If so, was there a depreciation in price after the said meeting?
6.	With whom is the Government carrying on negotiations for taking over the Grand Trunk Railway System?
7.	Is it the intention of the Government to settle the terms of taking over the Grand Trunk and the Grand Trunk Pacific railroads during the visit of the ministers to London this summer? If so, who are the ministers by whom these terms are to be settled?


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: 1.	No.
2.	No.
3.	No.
4.	Members of the Government have observed in the press despatches respecting the meeting of the shareholders alluded to.

It is considered that any supposed misapprehension would he sufficiently corrected by statements that have already been made in this House, particularly the statement made by the Prime Minister a few days ago.
5.	No. The Government has no information as to the alleged depreciation in price.
6.	Negotiations have been carried on with *Mr. A. W. iSmithers, chairman of the Board of Directors of the Grand Trunk Railway Company, and with president Kelley, of the Grand Trunk Railway Company.
7.	It is probable that the subject will be discussed during .the visit of ministers to London. It is not probable that the negotiations will then be concluded. An announcement as to the ministers will be made in due course.
Mr. PHILIPPE FUROIS.


Mr. PARENT:: 1.	Does Mr. Philippe Furois, of the city of Quebec, occupy a position with or under the Canada Food Board or any other department and if so-
(a)	Since when?
(b)	What are his duties?
(c)	'What salary is attached to the position?
2.	Is the said Mr. Furois the one who was a Government candidate at the last election for the county of Bonaventure?


Hon. Mr. BURRELL:: 1.	Yes. (a) April 12, 1918.	(b) Secretary
and organizer for increased conservation in the province of Quebec, (c) $250 per month.
2.	Yes.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS.

Mr. EDWARDS:: 1.	Is private custom work done at the Portsmouth Penitentiary by skilled convict workmen? If so, is any allowance made to said convicts for such work?
2.	Were walnut chaiirs repaired and upholstered for P. Devlin, Immigration Agent at Kingston? If so. what was the cost to Mr. Devlin ?
3.	Were several articles of furniture made for and shipped to Mr. Dillon, Purchasing Agent for Penitentiaries? If so, what articles were shipped to Montreal and Ottawa for him, what was their cost, and by wthom was it paid?
4.	What articles were made or repaired and shipped to persons In Toronto, Renfrew, Ottawa, Kingston and New York, by whose order, to whom sent, and the amount paid in each cas-e ?
5.	What articles have been repaired or made for the Rev. McDonald and for the Roman Catholic Church at Portsmouth, what amount was paid for such work, by whom paid and when?
6.	What articles of furniture have been made and repaired during the past two years (a) for officials of the penitentiary, (b) for persons other than officials, with the name and cost in each case?
7.	Were some statistics copied by one of the convicts for the United States authorities? If so, how much was paid by the United States for said work, and what amount was placed to the credit of the convict who did the work?
8.	Have convicts been ordered to make articles patented in the United States, the sole right for the manufacture of which had been sold to a firm in Canada, and were convicts ordered to make working drawings of the same for future use?


Mr. STEVENS:: 1.	Has any person been appointed to the position, under the Minister of Labour, which was vacated recently by the resignation of Mr. O'Connor?
2.	What is the new appointee's name, age, ordinary occupation, and has he been engaged on Active Military Service?
3.	What experience has the new appointee had as (a) barrister, (b) accountant, (c) in retail business, (d) in wholesale business, (e) in manufacturing business or other lines of commerce?
4.	What experience had Mr. O'Connor along the lines mentioned in Question No. 3?
5.	Was Mr. O'Connor's selection to perform the duties of the position mentioned because of his qualifications as lawyer, accountant or former business man? If so, and if the qualifications of the new appointee are different, what is the object or intention of the Government in replacing him by one of different qualifications?
6.	Was the Government satisfied with Mr. O'Connor's performance of the duties of the position mentioned? If not, will it indicate the particular causes of dissatisfaction? If satisfied with his services, has it made any, and what efforts to retain his services or to obtain them again under conditions more satisfactory to him? Does the Government know whether Mr. O'Connor would consent to resume performance of his former duties under any conditions whatever?
7.	Is the statement in the Toronto Saturday Night, of date May 18, 1918, that "Dr. R. J. McFall has been loaned to the Food Control Organization to continue the work originated by Mr. O'Connor," correct?
8.	Has any Order in Council been passed appointing Dr. R. J. McFall to perform in the same manner under the same circumstances, and under the same conditions the work which Mr. O'Connor previous to his resignation performed for the Minister of Labour? If not. how has the appointment of Dr. McFall been made, if made, and under what authority?
9.	What salary and living allowance, or either, will the new appointee receive, and out of what fund and through what department of Government or under what Commission will he act?
10.	Has the new appointee commenced services under the Minister of Labour, or at all, and when?
11.	Will the new appointee act under direction of the Minister of Labour alone, and if not, under what other arrangement?
12.	What will be the title of the office to be held by the new appointee?
13.	Does the Government intend to merge any, and what, of the operations previously con-

ducted by Mr. O'Connor with the same or similar operations of the Canada Pood Board or of any other Board or Department of Government, and if so, for what reason?


Mr. SAVARD:: 1.	For how long was General Sir Sam Hughes Minister of Militia?
2.	What were his total expenses, as charged to the country, for the time covering this period ?
3.	How many trips did he make to England or Continental Europe while Minister of Militia?
4.	What was the total expense to the country for each trip?


Mr. SAVARD:: 1. While in England did the Bev. Father Burke go on a trip to Rome at Government expense?
2.. If so, what was the cost to the country?
3.	Did the Rev. Father Burke, while in England, go to Salonica or Cairo at Government expense?
4.	If so, what was the cost to the country?
5.	Was Father Burke advised by General Sir Sam Hughes when making up his expense account for a trip to Rome, to eliminate the word Rome and place in its stead the words Salonica or Cairo?
6v If so, why was the then Minister of Militia anxious to suppress the fact that Father Burke had made an official governmental visit to Rome?
7.	Was Father Burke granted leave of absence for the purpose of making a visit to Rome or elsewhere?


*Mr. KENNEDY:: 1.	How many returns have been made to the Minister under the provisions of Section Id of the Business Profits War Tax Act, 1916?
2.	What is the total capitalization covered by these returns?
3.	How many of these returns have been dealt with and assessments made therein as provided by Section 13 of the said Act?
4.	What is the total amount of the capital so assessed, and the total amount of the assessment made therein for the first, second and third accounting period respectively?
5.	How much of the amount assessed for the first and second accounting periods has been collected to date?
6.	What is the number of tax payers who have paid this assessment?


Mr. SINCLAIR (Antigonish and Guys-borough):: 1.	How many survivors are there of the First Canadian Division?
2.	How many of those survivors have come to Canada on furlough since December 17, 1917?


Mr. FAFARD:: 1.	How many farmers have enlisted in the Canadian Expeditionary Forces?
2.	How many farmers have enlisted from each province in the Dominion?
3.	How many farmers have enlisted from the Conuty of Durham, Ontario?



UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS.

Mr. CHISHOLM:: For a copy of all letters, telegrams, vouchers, accounts and all documents in any way referring to the expenditure of money in repairs on the Margaree Breakwater, by the Department of Public Works, during the years 1916-17 and 1917-18.


Alexander William Chisholm: For a copy of all accounts, vouchers, receipts, telegrams, particulars and correspondence of all kinds in any way referring to the expenditure of money by this Government at Friar Siding, under the foremanship of P. Doucette, during the months of October, November and December, 1917.


Joseph Ovide Brouillard: For a copy of all letters, telegrams and correspondence generally exchanged between the Government and Mr. Justice Duff, Central Appeal Judge, during the last election campaign concerning the application and the administration of the Military Service Act in conjunction with the Order in Council passed on December 3, 1917.	,


Mr. STEVENS:: For a return giving a copy of all letters, telegrams, vouchers, evidence and all other documents relating to an inquiry into the wages, conditions of labour, etc., of the shipbuilding industry in British Columbia and conducted by a Commission of which Hon. Justice Murphy was chairman, also copy of findings of said Commission.



THE ZINC BOUNTIES ACT, 1916.

[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Hon. A. K. Maclean (Acting Minister of Finance) that the House go into Committee to-morrow to consider the proposed resolution respecting The Zinc Bounties Act, 1916:
Sir SAM HUGHES:: Without the slightest intention of finding fault, I wish to point out that members do not hear one-third of what is said. While the seats are fairly comfortable, it is very unpleasant not to know what is going on.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: In the case of formal motions of this kind, hon. members will hear the resolutions as read from the Chair.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: The Prime Minister said, in answer to a question put by, the member for Chambly and Vercheres (Mr. Archambault), that a/ statement with regard to the Imperial Conference would be made in due course. May we know in advance when that statement will 'be made, whether any of the correspondence will be

brought down, and whether we shall be informed as to the objects for which the conference is called?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: I will bring my right hon. friend's request to the attention of the Prime Minister.



CUSTOMS TARIFF AMENDMENT ACT, 1918.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Horn. A. K. Maclean, Bill No. 81, to amend the Customs Tariff, 1907, was read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. A. K. Maclean, Bill No. 84, to amend the Business Profits War Tax Act, 1916, was read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. A. K. MACLEAN moved the third reading of Bill No. 85, to amend The Income War Tax Act, 1917.
Rodolphe Lemieux: Many business men and others affected by the Income Tax Act of last year experienced some difficulty in preparing the return which they were required to furnish to the Government. Some weeks ago I handed to Mr. Boville, Deputy Minister of Finance, a primer prepared by the Treasury Department in the United States, which furnishes all information arising out of the administration and application of their Income Tax Act. Quite unwittingly, many people have made errors in their returns, and if the department-would prepare a primer similar to that sent out by the United States Treasury Department, those affected by the Act would be considerably assisted in the preparation of returns. Mr. Boville was struck with the necessity of such an official publication, the cost of which would not be very large. Last year some of the financial and trust companies and banks prepared publications of this kind for the benefit of their own ' patrons. I saw three or four of them, but they did not appear to be very complete. I think it would be good policy on the part of the department to-have such a primer issued during the present fiscal year.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I think that a publication of that nature is now in course of preparation. At any rate, my hon. friend's suggestion is a very timely one, and I shall convey it to the Minister of Finance.


Wilfrid Laurier: I suggest that the department issue also a table showing
the amounts paid under different incomes according to the new provisions.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: That is, for circulation outside of the House?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. T. A. Crerar, Minister of Agriculture, Bill No. 108, to amend the Inspection and -Sale Act (Fruit, fruit marks and potatoes), was read the second time, and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
On section 1-definitions:
Mr. E. LAPOINTE:: Has this Bill been distributed? I do not have it on my file.


George Green Foster: It has been printed.


Mr. BUREAU:: Is this part of the amendments that have been brought up by the Minister of Trade and Commerce as regards the Inspection and Sale Act?


George Green Foster: No.


Jacques Bureau: This is new legislation?


George Green Foster: Entirely.


Jacques Bureau: Who is the minister who has charge of this legislation?


Mr. CRERAR:: Part IX of the Inspection and Sale Act, relating to fruit, fruit marks and fruit packages, is under the jurisdiction of the Department of Agriculture, and these amendments refer only to that particular portion of the Act. They do not relate to the other matters that the Minister of Trade and Commerce submitted to the House.


Jacques Bureau: I do not know how long this Bill has been printed, but it has not yet come to my notice. I have often heard the remark thrown across the floor of this House: Such and such legislation was submitted to the House and was concurred in by you. Why did you not raise an objection when it was brought before the House? The first reading of this Bill took place on the 18th of May, (that is Saturday last), and as we are supposed to observe Sunday, very little time has been given to us to look into the matter. I do not know anything aibout the importance of the legislation. I do not know whether it affects fruit growing, or fruit classification, or the marking of fruit, or the preservation of fruit. I am not an expert in regard to these matters,

but I should like to have an opportunity of looking into the Bill. It is only fair that hon. members should have an opportunity of doing so, unless the minister, makes a statement, giving us the details, and telling us what precautions have been taken to justify hon. members in letting the Bill go through without any further investigation on their part.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Legislation of this kind has been under consideration for two or three years.


Jacques Bureau: How long has this Bill been submitted to the House for consideration?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The resolution has been on the Order Paper since the first of May.


Jacques Bureau: When was the Bill distributed?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not know when it was distributed. I have had a printed copy for a considerable length of time. During the winter there was held here a convention of representative fruit growers, some consumers, and also dealers in fruit. The result of the work of that convention is embodied in this Bill.


Samuel Hughes: Where do the people come in?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The consumers were represented at the convention. In respect to section 319, the only important change is that which relates to the definition of the word "culls." In the section as it previously stood, the definition of "culls" was as follows:
"Culls" shall include fruit that is either very small for the variety or immature, or the skin of which is broken so as to expose the tissue beneath, or that is so injured by insects, fungi, abnormal growths, or other causes, as' to render it unmerchantable.
The difficulty was this, that, no matter how scabby or deformed fruit was, it could not be classed as unmerchantable, and consequently there was a very wide range in the character of fruit that was classed as "culls." The amendment seeks to make that more specific, and provides, in later sections, for closer definitions of the grades. This is the section as amended:
(c) "culls" means fruit that is either very small for the variety, is seriously deformed, or has fifteen per cent or more of its surface affected by any of or by the combined injuries caused by apple scaib (Venturis, pomi), insects, cuts, bruises or other causes, or the flesh of which is not in an edible condition, or the skin of which is broken so as to expose the tissue beneath.
['Mr. Bureau.]
It will thus be apparent that the purport of the amendment is more clearly to define what is a cull in the designation of this particular class of fruit.


Jacques Bureau: Does the word " bruises " covet a case where the flesh would 'be partially uneatable, but where the fruit would otherwise be good? Sometimes
12 noon you see part of a pear, say at the bottom end, if it has been standing, as big as a twenty-five cent piece or a fifty cent piece, uneatable, although the rest of the pear is perfectly good. The section states that the whole of the flesh should be uneatable. Would a case like the one I have cited by covered by the word " bruises?"


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I should think it would.


Mr. J. E. ARMSTRONG:: The Minister of Agriculture is deserving of every credit for bringing forward this legislation. The matters pertaining to this Bill have been under consideration by Ministers of Agriculture for some years past. Within the last few months there were brought here from different provinces representatives who were in touch with fruit conditions in those provinces; consumers were also brought here,- and this Bill was framed under the supervision of all those parties.


Samuel Hughes: What consumers
were brought here?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I understand from the Department of. Agriculture that representative consumers from different parts of the country were consulted in regard to this measure. Moreover, this legislation is in the public interest. Nova Scotia fruit growers, for instance, were unable to sell their -apples in the United States owing to the standard size of their barrels not conforming with the regulations enforced in the United States-. The standard barrel will be the same throughout the Dominion of Canada. The sizes of the different packages the same-. In our western provinces over one thousand cars of apples put up in packages were disposed of last year at various prices.
The goods have to be packed in containers of uniform -size, and in this way not only is the consumer protected, but the producer benefits from being able to sell his goods as up to a certain- standard. With regard to peaches, plums, pears and other fruits, the baskets in which they are to be sold are *standardized, and the consumer is protected, whereas in days gone by ail kinds of packages have been sold at different

prices, and. it is the consumer that has heen fleeced at every turn.


Jacques Bureau: I did not "wish to he understood as, objecting to the Bill, and the very fact that I said I knew nothing about fruit growing should have convinced any one I was not taking exception to it. What I was objecting to was that we have not had time to look into the Bill, and I wanted to make inquiries and hear from those who understood this business before forming an opinion. I am perfectly in accord with the purpose of the Bill, but if I were a little wickeder I would say that the manner of bringing the Bill before the House .looks like an attempt to railroad it through.


Samuel Hughes: I see that all packages not branded according to the Act shall be forfeited. I think this would toe unfair to the small dealers. For instance, a farmer who sells to his neighbour might toe liable to a penalty under the law.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not think there need toe any misapprehension on that point. It is a simple matter for the grower of fruit to stamp his name on the container. As I understand it, the small growers of fruit bring theiT produce to the market, where it is bought by dealers and shipped, perhaps to other parts of the country. It is a simple matter to put one's name on, a box toy means of a rubber stamp, and I would repeat, this legislation has been asked for by the fruit growers themselves more insistently than by any other class.


Mr. MORPHY:: Suppose a farmer with a small orchard of fifty trees and twenty (barrels of apples, disposes of his fruit to a /consumer at home. Has he to go to the trouble of branding the barrels?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am of the opinion the
Act would not apply in the case of one farmer selling to another Tight across the road.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Or to a man in town?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Not if he was selling
direct to the consumer. I think the law would be reasonably interpreted in cases of that kind. The Bill is designed to cover more particularly the export of fruit from one district to anotheT district.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: I do not think the Bill is very plain on that point, and it may cause a great deal of inconvenience to the farmer and loss to the consumer also.


Mr. PEDLOW:: The definition of fruit is: "Fruit shall not include wild fruit, nor
cranberries, whether wild or cultivated." Why is wild fruit excluded?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not know the precise reason why wild fruit was excluded* but I take it that it is because very little wild fruit is sold.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Quite the contrary. Lots of raspberries, blackberries, blueberries and other kinds of wild fruits are traded in very extensively in Ontario.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The main provisions of the Bill aim at correcting the abuses that have existed in the past in connection with the sale of apples, pears and the larger varieties of fruit.


Samuel Hughes: But the Bill does not cover retail transactions. That was the point I raised a moment ago.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I should like to have the minister's definition of tomatoes. Are they a fruit or a vegetable?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The question is rather
a poser, but I would call a tomato a vegetable rather than a fruit.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Webster's dictionary defines fruit thus:
Whatever is produced for the enjoyment of man or animals by the processes of vegetable growth ; that part of plants, which contains the seed.
Tomatoes contain the seed, and therefore I contend they are a fruit, and not a vegetable, according to this definition.


Mr. SHEARD:: What about a pumpkin?


Hugh Boulton Morphy: And cucumbers?


Mr.   McM ASTER@: I think the definition of "immature fruit" is so vague that it may cause no end of trouble to the department in administering the Act. The definition reads:
"Immature fruit" means fruit not ripe enough for dessert purposes and which will not attain such condition after being picked from the tree, hush, plant or vine.
Now what are dessert purposes for one may not be dessert purposes for another. 1 presume that what the minister had in mind in framing this section was fruit so immature as to be unhealthy for consumption, and I would suggest the advisability of describing immature fruit as fruit unfit for human consumption or something of that sort, and then if the /question arose :n the application of the Act the testimony of a medical man could be given as to the fruit's fitness for human consumption. Bud as it is, one housewife might condemn a

certain fruit for dessert purposes which another housewife would put on her table for dessert. I think the present definition is altogether too vague.


George Green Foster: We shall have to standardize tastes.


Mr.   McM ASTER@: That might be a very difficult matter.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We should get ourselves into a hopeless tangle if we endeavoured to get the consumers to agree on a definition of immature fruit. Immature fruit means fruit that will not attain, after packing, that perfection of ripeness that will permit it to be used for dessert purposes. I am not an expert .in fruit, but I put the very question that my hon. friend from Brome (Mr. McMiaster) raises to the officials of my department, who, I believe, are very good officials, and who have a thorough knowledge of the business, and they gave the reasons I have , just given here. Fruit may be picked before it is entirely ripe and will attain a mature condition after it has been picked. Such fruit as that is covered by this section. On the other hand, you could pick fruit that might'be half green and that would under no condition attain maturity. This is the definition that fruit dealers who have studied the problem have made, and it is proposed as a means of preventing the sale of immature fruit.


Mr.   McM ASTER@: I do not doubt the ability of the officials in the hon. gentleman's department .to judge as to the different qualities of fruit, but whether they are qualified to give a considered opinion as to the effect of a statute is quite another matter. I wouldi suggest to my hon. friend that if he substituted for the words, " for dessert purposes," the words " to be eaten raw without danger to health," he would be setting up a standard or criterion which would be possible of establishment. If it should be made to read:
"Immature fruit" means fruit not ripe enough to be eaten raw without danger to health and which will hot attain such condition after being picked from the tree, bush, plant or vine.
it would better serve the purpose.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: If the minister agrees to that we will he getting into a worse muddle than ever. What is one man's meat may be another man's poison. I know lots oc people who like to eat fruit on the raw side, which would be considered unfit by others.
I do not see any better form than that in which the minister has put it. Let everybody judge for himself.
EMr. McMaster.]


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: The object of this clause is to put >a stop to the sale of immature fruit on the market, such as plums and other fruit brought in possibly from the United States at an early period, which is certainly immature and not fit for consumption. Without some such provision as this, fruit of that description could be brought in.


Jacques Bureau: Would my hon. friend
from East Lambton (Mr. Arm-strong) tell us if this description " fruit not ripe enough for dessert purposes" applies to cooked or raw fruit? Somebody might' buy fruit to make preserves or with the idea of using it after cooking. The question o-f quality, or standard of maturity, would depend on whether the fruit was to he eaten cooked or in its natural condition. I think that if we were to put in the words " for home consumption, whether cooked or otherwise," that would cover the case.


Mr. OOCKSHUTT:: The word " dessert " does not quite convey the idea that the minister attributes to it. Fruit, in its natural state, is uncooked. Sometimes it is called green." Green fruit is ripe fruit in the opinion of -some people. If you were to use the words " fruit in its natural state " I think it would better meet the case. The word " dessert " is usually applied to fruit which follows dinner, whereas, this should apply to the fruit that you eat as a first course at breakfast. You would not call it [DOT]" dessert " fruit if you used it in this way. It surely is intended to apply to fruit that you can eat without any bad effect upon the stomach. I would suggest to the minister that the words " fruit in its natural state " should be adopted because that will cover fruit whether it .is green or cooked.


Jacques Bureau: I would like to hear from our learned, scientific men who have the health of the people in their keeping and who look after all hygenic conditions.


Charles Sheard: I think the clause is all right. "Dessert" means ordinary fruit served after -a meal1 in its raw, unprepared or uncooked state. I think that the gentlemen in the department who drew the clause -drew it with a knowledge of what they were doing and with that interpretation in view. We do not ordinarily partake of dessert fruit in a cooked condition. This is r-aw fruit and cooked fruit is prepared or preserved fruit. It is preserved by boiling and under ordinary conditions it could

not be served otherwise. In the cooking process you reduce the immature acids in the green, or partially ripe fruit, to an innocuous condition. When you take up the question as to whether it is unripe or not you open the door to enormous degrees of difference as between ripeness and unripeness. People could pick up the windfalls in the orchard or under the plum trees and sell them as fruit. I think the proper definition has been selected by those who understand the conditions and it is used to describe fruit abundantly ripened and as it is ordinarily served after a meal for dessert purposes.


Jacques Bureau: I do not think it can mean that. It might be applied to fruit offered for sale for cooking. If my hon. friend (Mr. Sheard) believes that after the fruit is cooked all danger from eating it is gone, I suppose we must accept his opinion on that subject.


Mr. HENDERSON:: The clause gives a classification to immature fruit, and consequently it is all right. The difficulty in shipping fruit a distance has been that there is a temptation to pull the fruit before it is sufficiently mature. After it is picked it will develop such a degree of flavour and maturity as will indicate that it is suitable for dessert purposes. We have found in shipping early apples to the West that people pull them before they have reached sufficient growth to continue developing until they have reached a state of maturity. This provision is to meet cases of that kind, and it does it, I think, very fully.


Mr. J. H. SINCLAIR:: The fruit growers are well organized in different provinces. In the province from which I come, the fruit growers, for a number of years past, have been enforcing regulations as to the grading and marking of fruit. Has this Bill been submitted to the fruit growers, and have any objections been expressed to bringing it into force?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It was submitted to the fruit growers. I believe I stated earlier in the discussion that a conference of fruit growers coming -from all over Canada, from Nova -Scotia to British Columbia, was held in the month of February. They considered this matter for two days, and this Bill is the outcome of their deliberations. I believe that at that conference there were also present a few representatives of the consumers, particularly large companies of
western farmers, handling fruits along with other commodities.


Jacques Bureau: I understood the hon. member for East Lambton to say that one of -the objects of this Bill was to prevent fruit from the United States being distributed in an unfit condition. I see that every package is going to be marked with letters three-quarters of an inch in height before it is taken from the premises in which it is packed. Suppose fruit comes from the other -side of the line and is packed in an immature condition, I do not see this is any protection to the Canadian consumer. I do not see any protection so far for the Canadian consumer.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: The fruit to which I refer has been coming in from the United States, and this practice has been followed for years back. Carloads of immature fruit have been brought in year after year from the United States and forced upon the Canadian market and it is a most unwise position for us to be placed in as a people.


Samuel Hughes: How will this Bill prevent that practice5


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Because the American exporters of immature fruit will not be allowed to dispose of it in Canada except they conform with the regulations prescribed by this Bill. Not only has the practice to which I have referred been common, but some of our own fruit farmers, in order to get the advantage of the high prices, have been in the habit of shipping immature fruit from their trees and selling it -as wholesome fruit when it is certainly anything but that.


Jacques Bureau: My question had reference to fruit coming across the border in packages. I understood this Bill was designed to protect the Canadian consumer.


Mr. CURRIE:: There is a law in the United States prohibiting the sale of immature fruit, but when the market over there is denied to the American exporters they ship the immature fruit to this country, just as they do with unmarketable veal and tubercular sheep and hogs.


Jacques Bureau: Does the United States law prevent the exportation of immature fruit?


John Allister Currie: No.


Jacques Bureau: Then where is there any protection for Canada?


John Allister Currie: The fruit grown in the United States is subject to inspection there.



When that fruit is rejected, it is shipped to Canada although some of it is unfit for hogs let alone human beings. In the same way they ship to Canada the carcasses of tubercular sheep and hogs that have been rejected over there. They are allowed to do that because the United States will not carry on an inspection for us or for any other outside country-their inspection is intended for the protection of their own people. The clause in the Bill is- aimed at importations into Canada of that class of stuff.


Jacques Bureau: I understand that perfectly, but is there nothing in the present Bill against the shipment of immature, or any other kind of improper fruit, from the United States into Canada?


John Allister Currie: That is the object of the Bill.


Jacques Bureau: Not the section I have just read 'because it presupposes that the fruit has been shipped in bulk and packed again in Canada. The language of the section is:
Every person who, by himself or through the agency of another person, repacks fruit-
And so on. I do not think there is anything in the Bill to create the presumption that if a man receives a package of immature fruit from the United States that he is creating an agency.


Samuel Hughes: I see your point; how in practice is immature fruit from the United States to 'be held up?
iMt. CRERAR: I may point out to the committee that the purpose of this definition is to prevent the sale of immature fruit.


Jacques Bureau: Fruit that is packed?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is to insure that fruit that ie immature shall be so stamped and marked so that the purchaser shall know what he is buying. Immature fruit is used very largely for making jams-it has a definite, specific use-but it has happened in the past that immature fruit, for instance, plums and grapes, have been shipped to remote points and -actually sold as good fruit when it was not. The purpose of this definition is merely to make it quite clear that the shipper of fruit,if it is immature, must stamp his basket or package with a label 60 that the purchaser will know what it is he is buying.


Samuel Hughes: Whether it is Canadian or American fruit? fMr. Currie. 1


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think it would apply to American fruit as well, tout -as to that -point I am not absolutely sure.


Mr. MARSHALL:: There are hundreds
of ears of fruit shipped into this country from the United States, which fruit h-as to be picked on the green side or it -would not be in the proper condition to use when it gets here. If the fruit is not picked until it is ri-pe, when it is shipped any distance it cannot be handled at all after reaching its destination. Our company have brought in a great many cars o-f different kinds of fruit f-or the simple reason that we cannot get it here-this country is not producing sufficient fruit. The fruit that we bring into this country, as I say, is picked on the green side, -and 'by the time it reaches its destination in this country it is in a nice condition to handle. If we wait until the fruit has ripened on the tree and then have it shipped, when it reaches here it is in such a condition that we cannot handle it.


Mr.   McM ASTER@: I draw the minister's
attention to the fact that the word "Christian" is spelled with a small c throughout the section. That is not as it should be, and I suppose the minister will correct it.


Mr. McKENZIE:: If it has any reference to the -fruit dealers, I would object to the use of the word altogether.
Section -agreed to.
On -section 321 (3)-Package marks:


Mr.   McM ASTER@: The -paragraph refers to specimens o-f fruit "of not less than nearly medium size and some colour for the variety," etc. Should that not he "same colour."


Thomas Alexander Crerar: "Some" is right.
On paragraph 321-subsection 7-Fruit unfit for use:	-


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: This section provides that no persons shall sell or expose for sale any fruit in any "package" that is diseased, wormy or otherwise depreciated. Would it not be just as bad if the dealer had this diseased fruit in bulk, and not in a package? It would seem that he could have it in as bad a condition as he likes if it is not in a package, but that it is only when it is in a package that the law applies.


Mr.   McM ASTER@: It seems to me that this section will affect the, sale of fruit which is quite general at certain times of the year in certain sections of Eastern Canada. For instance, take the blueberry season: Young folks go out and gather blueberries, bring

them in in pails, and sell them. The same thing is done in the raspberry season. Apparently "no person shall sell, or offer, expose or have in his possession for sale any fruit in any package"-even in an open package-intended for sale unless marked as required by this section. I do not think the minister intends that the village children who pick strawberries, raspberries or blueberries have to mark the package to dispose of them among their friends in the village.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: If the hon. member will look at paragraph (b) of section 319, he will note that it is provided that " 'fruit' shall not include wild fruit, nor cranberries, whether wild or cultivated."


Mr.   McM ASTER@: That provision will protect the sale I have mentioned.


Mr. J. A. ARMSTRONG:: This Bill does not refer to that.


[Stage Direction]
Paragraph agreed to.
On paragraph 325-Fruit packages:
Samuel Hughes: I observe that this Bill provides that all these fruits shall be sold in packages of a certain size, a made-to-order package, of specified length, width and depth, taper, etc. To my mind it is difficult to comply with that law. Why should these fruits not also be sold by the pail or by the bag, unless for wholesale or export purposes, when there would be some object in making a fixed size of package in which a commodity should be sold? For instance, in the following section I notice that currants shall be sold in containers of four-fifths of a quart, and that a pint box. shall be four and three-eighths by four and three-eighths at top and bottom and one and seven-eighths inches deep, and m on. It will take a Philadelphia lawyer to interpret what all this means. -We have been in the habit of selling these fruits in pails, baskets, bags, or barrels. I do not see the gain in this legislation, or the possibility of dealing with it. It is absolutely impossible for a small dealer throughout the country to sell his fruits in accordance with this Bill.


David Marshall: I do not agree with the bon. gentleman. What we want is standard size baskets.


Samuel Hughes: You are a wholesale dealer, and I am not.


David Marshall: I am a large buyer.


Samuel Hughes: I am not selling to large buyers, and you are selling to me.
142J


David Marshall: Your neighbour wants to know what he is getting. If he is buying a standard basket, then he will know. I quite agree that this clause is a move in the right direction. I am a canner, and we are trying to standardize our cans all the way through, jam can, fruit can and vegetable can; we are doing that now, and I can see' a great advantage by doing so. I do not see why the same thing should not apply to these fruits.	.


Samuel Hughes: Let me give the hon. gentleman a concrete instance. Take a farmer; living outside of Aylmer, who does not want to sell to large wholesale organizations, but to the retail merchant. By this Bill he is supposed to sell fruits in packages of specified dimensions. How will he get the baskets? Why should he not sell the fruit as he does now, in pails, or sell his apples by the bag, as he has been doing?


David Marshall: I can tell you why. I think it is the small buyer we are looking after. The large buyeT can take care of himself better than the small buyer. This is a protection to the boy, or the girl, or the housewife who buys one package of . fruit. I cannot get away from that. I think it is a splendid move, and one in the right direction.	.


Samuel Hughes: It is a move that these multi-millionaires invariably have against the poor, downtrodden boy and girl in the country:	It is almost impossible
for every farmer to have a package or measure of this kind at his disposal at all times. Time and again we have provided 'that bags of certain capacity shall be used and that certain products shall be sold in certain kinds of measures. This limiting the size and shape of every measure that articles are sold in is all piffle. For the wholesale trade, let the requirements be up to a certain standard; let the measure be described as a bushel, peck, quart, or pint. But under this provision, a farmer is violating the law if he sells fruit in a bushel which is an inch too long and a corresponding inch too narrow.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: This clause is in the interests of consumers. We have standard size barrels in Ontario. The people of Nova Scotia have the same, and they are unable to sell apples in the United States because their barrel is of such a size that it does not conform with the regulations in the United States. The small boxes in which cherries and berries and smaller fruits are packed are supplied by

large manufacturers. It is very easy for the farmers to conform to certain regulations respecting the size of the packages. Fruit men throughout the country are anxious that these standard boxes should be in universal use.
Mr, FEASEE: I take exception to this clause respecting the baskets. In the Niagara Falls district we have had for the past two years a basket manufactured of paper; it has ho tacks in it. A large order has been received for the supplying of baskets of this, kind to the British trade. It is one of the best baskets on the market. As long as the basket is of a standard size and of strong construction, I do not see that it makes any difference what shape it is.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Is the hon.
gentleman referring to packages of fruit for export?


Mr. FEASEE:: No, to packages to be sold in our own markets.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: What is the objection to conforming with these regulations?


Austin Levi Fraser: Because this basket has no tacks in it; you cannot put tacks in the bottom of it.


Mr. HENDEBS:: Take the case of a village of 300 or 500 inhabitants around which there is a farming community. The farmers have small quantities of strawberries and apples to sell and it is a great convenience to them to be able to bring this fruit to town and sell it by the pint, quart or gallon. There is also an advantage to the purchaser, because he knows what he is getting; besides, he gets the fruit in convenient form. For shipping purposes it is all right to provide such a standard as is specified in the Bill, but some provision should be made to meet- cases of the kind to which I refer.
'Mr. CUEEIE:	Does not most of the
trouble arise because in Canada we use an Imperial measure, while in the United States they use what is known as the wine measure? In the United States the strawberry box contains, say, a wine quart- we call it wine measure in this country-while in Canada we have the Imperial quart, which is one fifth larger. That places the Canadian dealer at a disadvantage, because in the United States they will not give him credit for the additional amount contained in his package. Are the measures spoken of in this provision with refer-

ence to pears, crab apples, plum.s, and so on, based on the number of cubic inches contained in a quart or in a peck as the case may be; or are they simply arbitrary measurements?


Mr.   CEEEAE@: 
Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I think that the following provision of section 327 covers the objection of the member for Welland (Mr. Fraser):
Every basket of fruit packed in Canada, for sale in Canada, and every basket manufactured and offered for sale in Canada, of other material than wood veneer shall be of such dimensions as may be specified by the Minister of Agriculture, and shall contain, when level full, as nearly as practicable, one or other of the following quantities.


Samuel Hughes: That is all right for the large dealers, but we are legislating not for the large dealers, but for the ordinary farmers. Half the fruit sold in Canada is disposed of by small farmers, who peddle it around in the villages and small towns. Under this provision, if a farmer sells a pail of cherries, that does not comply with the law, he is a criminal. That should not be, because the transaction is absolutely straight and square and fair. It is all right to provide that -fruit for export shall be put in a package of a certain size, but when a man is selling in small quantities direct to the consumer, let him sell it in the most convenient way and for whatever he can get.
Mr. (BALL: Fruit for export or for shipment to a point some considerable distance away ought to be put in packages, boxps or barrels, but when it is locally disposed of it is quite unnecessary to adopt the method suggested by this provision. Moreover, the added expense is unnecessary. The measurement. Imperial gallon, or any other measurement, is not, as I understand it, a consideration. The size of the boxes is defined. But for local consumption, it is unnecessary to go to the expense of putting up fruit in boxes or barrels, unless people wish to have it put up in that manner.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: If the hon. member will refer to section 326, he will see that it mentions the word " bushels." Subsection 2 says:
Every wood veneer basket of fruit packed in fana.i'i f.j s-n'e in Canada, or manufactured

and offered for sale in Canada, shall contain, when level full, as- nearly as practicable, one or other of the following quantises :-
(a)	one bushel;
(b)	eleven quarts.
And so on.


Samuel Hughes: The ordinary farmer who has, say, ten quarts of fruit knows that in the fruiit season farmers and their wives come into the market with a pail of cherries, a pail of plums, a pail of apples, and so on. That is the half-basket. Why should such people be penalized because that is the custom they have always followed? They have only a small quantity of fruit. They are not wholesale dealers or multi-millionaires. I do not know that anybody will enforce this law with regard to them, but why should they be made liable to a penalty, made criminals according to the law, for selling in small quantities, as their ancestors have done for generations? If their pail does not conform with the exact measurements of the bushel measure as set forth in this legislation, such people would be liable.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: They are
allowed to sell in that way.


Samuel Hughes: Not as II read the section.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I realize that there is some force in the point raised by the hon. member for Victoria (Sir Sam Hughes). Possibly an exception might be considered in the case of a farmer or fruit grower who brings fruit into the market and sells direct to the consumer.


Samuel Hughes: Hear, hear.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That point, as I interpret this section, is not covered. On the other hand, if a fruit grower, no matter whether he be doing business in a large or a small way, is selling to a retailer who resells to the consumer, he should be obliged to sell in baskets or packages.


Samuel Hughes: Or the retailer should be obliged to put the fruit into baskets or packages.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think we should have to start a little further back than the retailer. I would suggest that this section stand, and I shall look into that point and bring it up again later on.


Samuel Hughes: I am very much obliged. The man whom I have in mind is not the fruit grower as such. I do not know what the definition of the term " fruit grower " is. But I mean the man who has
a farm, behind which he hias an orchard with some plum, apple and cherry trees, and who makes a few hundred dollars a year out of his fruit. There are thousands of such farmers throughout Ontario and the Maritime Provinces. Those farmers could not possibly comply with this legislation, and I want them to be protected from being made criminals under it.
At one o'clock the House rose.
The committee resumed at three o'clock.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I'.beg to move to amend section 326 by striking out the words "issue permits" and substituting therefor the words "make regulations." This- will cover the point raised by my hon. friend from Victoria.


Charles Sheard: Would it not be better to leave -the section just as it is and add the words "make regulations-?" That would enable the -minister to cover -any cas-es that came up.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think my amendment
is better.


Samuel Hughes: I do not want to
hold up the Bill at all, but there is danger in rushing through legislation in the last days of the session. This Bill, for instance, in my opinion will cause any amount of trouble to local sellers, and they will not put up with being inconvenienced in this way. What is the. bushel mentioned here? Is it the same as the grain bushel?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Imperial measure.


Samuel Hughes: Is our standard grain bushel the Imperial measure?


George Green Foster: It must be the
same-.


Samuel Hughes: I mention that just to illustrate the difficulties the minister will be up against all over the country. If the two bushels, -are not the same, people will be- -selling wheat by one- bushel and fruit by another, -and it will cause any amount of confusion. I would suggest that the local men might dispose of their fruit to the retailer without having to- comply with these provisions-. What is to prevent my hon. friend from Elgin, for instance, buying -all the stuff that comes along in pails, half-pails or quarter-pails, and having his men put it into packages? Let that be the business of the man who sells- to the general public. I fully endorse the idea of having packages, -but it will le-ad to all sorts of trouble to men who sell locally.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I would point out that wild fruit is excluded from the application of these previsions 'by the definition of the word fruit, and I think the amendment I have moved will cover the point raised by my hon. friend. I do not know whether he intends1 that those people in the Niagara district, for instance, who are growing fruit as a business and selling it as part of their regular farm product should ibe permitted to sell their fruit in packages to suit themselves.


Samuel Hughes: No, I do not.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Then we have to meet the requirement of the farmer who raises a little fruit and may take it into the local town to sell it direct to the consumer. There is a provision in the latter part of this section:	-
That the said Minister may issue permits allowing any person or persons to use packages of other sizes than those specified in the foregoing section.
1 have proposed an amendment to that, so that we may frame regulations to cover these particular cases.


Samuel Hughes: All right.


Mr. BURNHAM:: One remark made by the hon. member for Victoria strikes me as singularly appropriate, and that is that legislation like this, which is extremely desirable and brings this whole matter out of chaos into order, should be considered very carefully. For my part I venture to say this House should do as it .did last year, adjourn to meet again in the summer. The men are sweating in the trenches; loi us do some sweating here. Why should we try to get rid of our duties at the earliest possible moment and clear out of here as soon as we possibly can? For my part, I am not a farmer, and may not be doing very much here, but I would say, let us stay right here and do our duty fully.


Mr. GAUVREAU:: Go and work on your farm.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 331-penalty for destroying or pilfering fruit:
Mr.   McM ASTER@: This section says:
Every person who carelessly handles, wilfully destroys or pilfers any fruit packed in any of the packages prescribed in this Part shall be guilty of an offence and1 liable upon summary conviction to a penalty not exceeding twenty-five dollars.
It seems to me to be wrong to put careless handling on the same basis as thieving, for pilfering is thieving.


George Green Foster: It says, "not exceeding twenty-five dollars." A magistrate could fine lightly or up to the limit.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 337A-potato grades:
Samuel Hughes: Is there anything in this section to prevent a man selling potatoes and letting the buyer grade them?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
House again in Committee on Bill No. 19, to amend the Inspection and Sale Act (vegetables, eggs, food containers, firewood and cement)-Sir	George	Foster.-Mr. Boivm in the Chair.
On section 3 (360b)-Portland cement, net weight:
George Green Foster: That clause 360b be struck out.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
On section 4-Act not to apply to articles now in stock; date of coming into force:
George Green Foster: That is not necessary now, as it is included in the new clause 358 (d). I therefore beg to move that it be struck out.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
On section 5-Date of coming into force:
George Green Foster: I move that there shall be substituted for that section the following:
This Act shall come into- force in one year from the date upon which this Bill receives the Royal Assent.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
On section 2 (358 a)-Packages of food and containers to be marked:
On motion of St. George Foster, the Committee reverted to section 358a.
George Green Foster: It will be remembered that when we were discussing packing or labelling of milk in bottles it seemed as though we ought to amend that clause
otherwise it would be necessary for some permanent stamp to be aflixed to or blown into the bottle. I propose to make that clear in the same manner as has been done

In Acts of this kind in the United States. I therefore move:
That at the end of the 25th line; after the word "branded'' there be added the words "or otherwise indicated on the outside or top or on a label or tag: attached thereto."
This will make it easy to affix the label to the bottle or to attach an independent label thereto. ,


Mr. DECHENE:: According to the amendment made by the minister to section 5, this Act will not come into force until one year after it has received the Royal Assent. But before that another clause was amended to provide that stock on hand would not be affected by the provisions of the Act. What is the use of amending the two clauses in this way if the Act is to come into force within one year after it has received the Royal Assent? His amendment would be useless, as far as I can see if it does not cover all the stock.


George Green Foster: The amendment of which I gave notice to section 358 D provides that:
This Act does not apply to any articles held in stock by wholesale or retail dealers prior to the coming into force of the Act.
If, when the Act comes into force, he shall have a stock on hand, this Act shall not apply to it. That gives a wide privilege and at the same time it takes away any reason for discontent as to his having to remark articles which he .may have in stock. Then the amendment proceeds to state other exceptions from the operation of the Act:
The .provisions of this Act shall not apply.-
(e)	To packages containing two avoirdupois ounces, or less, which packages shall be exempt from marking in terms of weight;
(f)	To packages containing one fluid ounce, or less, which packages shall be exempt from marking in terms of measure.
These are very small articles, and it is not considered worth while to bother with them, or to insist on their (being, labelled with measurements, weights, or names.
(g)	to any article the sale of which as regards the weight or marking thereof is already provided for under other statutes.
We do not want to duplicate the legislation.
(h)	those food oommoditles which may at the time this Act comes into force, or which thereafter may be subject to any regulation or order of the Canada Food Control Board as respects the weight of such commodity or the weight or proportion of ingredients used in the manufacture of such commodity.
We do not wish to interfere with the work of the Pood Board in making these changes
and regulations from time to time. These are extraordinary regulations adopted by the Food Board and they are called for by the necessities and circumstances of war conditions. We do not bind them down by the letter of this enactment. But while the war continues and while the work of the Food Board is going on, this clause is necessary.
(i)	those food commodities held' in stock at the time that such regulations of the Canada Food Board referred to in paragraph (h) become inoperative.
That avoids the confusion and expense of relabelling, remarking, reweighing, and remeasuring the stock that may be on hand at that particular time. .


Joseph Bruno Aimé Miville Déchêne: This part of the Act applying to imported goods will interfere with the importation of food.


George Green Foster: No, it does not interfere with the importation of food.


Joseph Bruno Aimé Miville Déchêne: It does interfere with it if we set up a standard in this country which is not the standard in the United States.


George Green Foster: We must have our own standard.


Joseph Bruno Aimé Miville Déchêne: The packers in the
United States will pack in accordance with their standard and not in accordance with our standard, and there will he trouble in connection with the importation of goods packed in that way.


George Green Foster: The importer will' have the advantage of a whole year to order his imports and to see that they are packed according to these regulations. It is not necessary to wait for a year to put in the order.


Joseph Bruno Aimé Miville Déchêne: This will have the effect of increasing prices if we do not have the same standard as they have in the United States. The packers in the United States will have to pack goods specially for our trade, they .will have to charge for that, *and it will mean higher prices to our consumers. All food products aTe high enough now. We are anxious to keep down prices and to reduce the cost of living, hut by this legislation we are putting prices up.


George Green Foster: I do not think that myself. The object of the legislation is- to make it sure that the consumer when he buys shall know what he is getting and what he is paying for. It would be unfair, as my bon. friend will see, to have a lesser measure put up in bottles or packages

in another country, say the United States, and have those bottles and packages come here and compete, on the same outward appearances, with a larger measure which our own packers and our makers put up. We simply guard ourselves in the interest of the Canadian consumer, that is all.
Section as amended agreed to.


Mr. KAY:: When this Bill was previously under consideration in committee, the Minister of Trade and Commerce promised that he would exempt bottles filled with milk by the milk dealers, from its operation.


George Green Foster: An amendment relating to such bottles has been added to the Bill, and the amendment has been agreed to.


The CHAIRMAN:: The amendment to 358a which has just been adopted, adds after the word "branded" on line 25, the following words, "or otherwise indicated on the outside or top or on a label or tag attached thereto."


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to, and clause as amended agreed to.
George Green Foster: I move
To amend clause 358	(d) by adding after
sub-paragraph (c) the following words:
"(d) to any articles held in stock by a wholesale or .retail dealer prior to the coming into force of this Act.
(e)	to packages containing two avoirdupois ounces or less, which -packages shall be exempt from marking in terms of weight.
(f)	to packages containing one fluid ounce, or less, which packages shall ,be exempt from marking in terms of measure.
(g)	to any article the sale of which as regards the weight or marking thereof is already provided for under other statutes.
(h)	those food commodities which may at the .time thiis AJct comes into force, or which thereafter may be subject to any regulation or order of the Canada Food 'Control Board as respects the weight of such commodity or the weight or proportion of ingredients used in the manufacture of such commodity.
(i)	those food commodities held in stock at the time that such regulations of the Canada Food Board referred to in paragraph (h) become inoperative."
Section as amended agreed to.


George Green Foster: I move to strike out clause 2 dealing with the weight of eggs.


An hon. MEMBER:: Who will take care of the eggs?


George Green Foster: The hens will take care of them.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to, and Bill reported and read the third time.

[Stage Direction]
On the motion of the Hon. Mr. Burrell Bill No. 106 (from the Senate) to amend the Companies Act in various particulars was read a second time and the House went into committee thereon.
Mr. TURRIFF:: What is the object in adding the last three words- to th-e title " in various particulars "? It -seems to me altogether unnecessary. Will the minister explain the object of the addition.


Martin Burrell: I do not think that I can offer any further explanation beyond the fact that there was another Bill put through the Senate recently which provided for an amendment to the Government Act. This is a Senate Bill.
Bill reported.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
THE TAKING OF THE SOKDEEKjS' VOTE AT LAST ELECTION.
On the motion, of Hon. A. K. Maclean that the House go into Committee -of Supply.
Mr. A. B. COPP (Westmorland):: On Saturday last, I notified the Prime Min-isted that I intended to discuss on the first convenient opportunity a matter I considered of .some importance, and as I have not heard from him, I presume it is satisfactory to him to proceed this afternoon. The matter, IMr. Speaker, I desire to bring to the attention of Parliament is in reference to the taking of the soldiers' votes in th-e elections held on December 17 last.


George Green Foster: Ilf my hon. friend will excuse me, it is stated that there was an understanding that this matter should not come up until to-morrow. The Prime Minister, especially, wished to he present.
I am not sure whether my hon. friend expected, or understood, that he should receive- word with reference to it. He -says he has not, and, of course, that goes without saying. But if he has not, it was from a misunderstanding or -some little neglect. The Prime Minister is engaged this afternoon on a very important matter with high authorities in -connection with our defence. Under the circumstances, if my hon. friend would -allow it to go over until to-morrow h-e would consult very much the convenience of the Prime Minister.


Wilfrid Laurier: The Prime Minister asked me to confer with him regarding the business of the House, and going over the various -matters I informed him that we intended to bring up the

matter of the soldiers' votes, about which my hon. friend from Westmorland had notified him. The Prime Minister told me that perhaps it would be more convenient for him to have the discussion to-morrow.
1 understand that the Prime Minister did not intend to take part in the discussion.
I immediately notified my hon. friend (Mr. Copp) that he might he called upon to postpone his motion until to-morrow. Under the circumstances, we cannot refuse to accede to the request that the discussion of this matter Ibe postponed, but in view of the fact that the time of the House may be well taken up to-morrow with the debate on titles, and possibly other matters. I suggest that if this motion be not proceeded with tomorrow afternoqn, it be taken up on Wednesday morning.	*


George Green Foster: I am muchobliged to my right hon. friend.


Arthur Bliss Copp: As I have said, I communicated with the Prime Minister regarding my intention to make this motion, and as I did not hear from him, I supposed that it was all right to go on with it.


Wilfrid Laurier: It is understood, then, that if it is too- late to take this matter up to-morrow afternoon, we shall proceed with it the first thing Wednesday morning?


George Green Foster: Yes.'


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and the House went into Committee of Supply.

[Stage Direction]
Trade and Commerce-Trade commissioners and commercial agents, including expenses in connection with negotiations of treaties or in extension of commercial relations'; miscellaneous advertising and printing, or other expenditure connected with the extension of Canadian trade, $160,000. .
['Supply.']
Rodolphe Lemieux: Has anything been done to implement the report made by the commission sent to France?


George Green Foster: Since the commission made their report, congestion in France as well as on the seas has increased rather than diminished. The facilities which in normal times are used/ for the exchange of commercial products1 have been devoted to the transport of food', munitions and other war necessities. Trade has been entirely stopped in a great many lines and greatly interrupted in all. The commission made a thorough investigation and published their information in a very instructive way. Under the circumstances, it has not been possible to do more than that.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The report is a splendid one.


George Green Foster: It has been distributed broadcast amongst onr traders, businessman and producers. It is impossible to push trade with warring countries at this time, if we except trade in such commodities and articles as are necessary for the war. As these things are largely bought by the governments themselves, private business transactions between the inhabitants of all countries have been disarranged.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I suppose the same applies to our Russian business.


George Green Foster: Worse.


Rodolphe Lemieux: A very interesting report was published by the department some time ago with regard to the possibilities of Canadian trade with Russia and Siberia. Tne other day I inquired whether the Government were aware of the denunciation by France of the Franco-Canadian Treaty. I have seen in the press that France lias denounced all her trade treaties. In the British House of Commons the other day Mr. Bonar Law or Mr. Balfour said that as a result of the. Paris Economic Conference, France had denounced all her treaties. The Prime Minister said, in reply to my inquiry, that he was not aware of any such denunciation. I wish now to renew my -question. Our trade with France during the existence of the Franco-Canadian treaty was particularly extensive in connection with the importation to Canada of French wines.
Now that we have established prohibition in Canada, the French trade will thereby suffer to a large extent, although we can do business with the French people in other ways. It seems to me that, after the visit of that commission on the other side and by .the report of that commission, we can, after the war, establish much closer trade relations with Prance. We should have, as they have in the United Kingdom, commercial agents not only in Paris, but in other laTge French cities, such as Bordeaux, Nantes, Marseilles, Lyons, and possibly Rouen. The war will have brought France and England so close to one .another that this country should, by reason of its national traditions, help in maintaining the entente cordiale between France and England, and although sentiment and business are two different things, yet I believe a good commercial treaty and sound business relations will help to maintain the happy friendship that exists between the Mother Country -and France.

I do not know if my right hon. friend has the latest figures as regards the trade between France and Canada, but the present large trade is, of course, due to wax conditions. At the same time, one must admit that France has, during the present war, been an extraordinarily good customer of Canada. Our trade statistics will show that very plainly. Before the war the total trade, exports and imports, between the two countries was relatively small, but since 1914 we have become one of the great allies of France from the commercial standpoint alone, not to speak of other standpoints. We are now selling to France in the millions, whilst we ourselves continue to buy from France at a much lower figure. I do not expect that, in the years to come, our imports from France will equal our exports, neither do the French people expect that. But from my conversation with some of the French consuls in this country, I am led to believe .that if the Government, in particular the Minister of Trade and Commerce, will help in this connection we may establish a buoyant, permanent trade with France.


George Green Foster: When the question with reference to the denunciation of treaties was put to the House by the hon. member for Maisonneuve (Mr. Lemieux) a week or so ago, no official information had reached the Government of the action that had been taken. Since that 4 p.m. time official information has reached the Government, and Frrnce has given notice of the termination of all her treaties with all countries. With reference to Canada, as I suppose is the case with reference to other countries, the notice runs "from the 15th of May." One year after the 15th of May, the treaties will be denounced. But the statement is also made that in the denunciation of the treaties, it is not the intention of France to terminate favoured arrangements with those nations with whom she has had relations before, but that the denunciation of the treaties takes place in order to put France, under the altered conditions, in the position of making new arrangements with the different countries. France is not alone in respect to that action. Great Britain is following the same course, and so I imagine are most of the other nations.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What about Japan?


George Green Foster: I would, however, prefer not to give the reason for the denunciation of the treaties to be the basis which was laid down in the resolutions 	-
adopted by the Economic Conference at Paris; rather the resolutions adopted in that conference and the denunciation of those treaties arise from the very same circumstances-the necessity for our grading and rearranging commercial relations owing to the world-wide dislocation of trade brought about by the war.
We had commenced an excellent propaganda in Russia. We had one of our most expert trade commissioners at Petrograd, and a very bright and capable young man at Omsk. Both of those gentlemen had about a year or a year and a half of work in their respective localities, but the collapse of the Russian government in so far as carrying on the war was concerned, and the widespread confusion which took place thereafter, the utter congestion of trade transport inland and the almost utter lack of ocean transport, have made it necessary that both those gentlemen should be recalled from their positions. Mr. Just has lately arrived, fortunately safely, in England, and Mr. Wilgress is now at work for the department in the southern part of China, with his headquarters at Hong Kong. He will probably remain there until matters settle down in Russia sufficiently to-enable him to take up his work again from anything like an advantageous position. All our trade commissioners have been interfered with in their work largely by the confusion of transport and of trade conditions.
At the same time they have been diligently at work gathering information and preparing reports, which are being distributed, and endeavouring in every possible way to prepare for the coming better period by keeping the relations between business men here and business men in those other countries as far as possible intact.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What about my
suggestion that after the war more commercial agents be appointed in those large centres? I do. not mean that my hon. friend is not doing the needful as far as Paris is concerned, although everybody who has travelled in Europe knows that the commissioners in Paris and1 London are not able to look after the trade of Canada, because Canadians abroad simply overwhelm their offices with requests for information of all kinds. It seems to me we should have- we had them in Germany before the war- agents on the continent and especially in France, at such places as Rouen, Lyons, Marseilles, Bordeaux, whose special business would be to develop the trade between

Canada and France. One agent in Paris is not sufficient for the whole of France.


George Green Foster: I quite agree,
hut the only thing that can be done at the moment is for the department to keep a watchful eye on what happens. One thing is quite certain, and that is that methods and' opportunities for interchange will be very largely altered by reason of the war, and agencies in France may be taken advantage of which have not been available heretofore; such, for instance, as the Lyons' fair, which takes place every year and which will open up an excellent opportunity, when times become more normal,' for representation of our wares to the representative business men of France, leading up to business connections. It is true that France is buying largely -from us -at the present time and selling comparatively little to us, but the balance of trade, while in our favour at the present time, is largely a fictitious one and does not represent anything permanent. In peace times the balance of trade was very largely in favour of France who sent us many millions of dollars' worth of goods more than we sent to her, so the balance is now righting itself. What will happen after the war will depend very largely upon the basic needs of France in relation to our sources of. large supply. For instance, France o-ught to take from Canada a great amount of lumber and other material for reconstruction purposes. That is all being noted as carefully as possible by the department, and when the proper time com-es these matters will all be taken up. In the meantime nothing -can be done in the way of negotiations.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I would ask the minister, if he attends the Imperial Conference, or if he does not, his colleagues, to look especially after the interests of Canadian trade. It is true that a Canadian business man abroad can always rely on the British consulates to protect him and give all the information he requires in his trade. But England is a nation of shopkeepers, be it said without derogation, and looks after her own business through her consulates. The question has been brought up on several occasions in the House. Perhaps it would be possible for this Government to have in those British consulates on the continent, and especially in* France, Canadian attaches who would" especially represent the interests- of Canadian trade. Let my hon. friend understand me well; I do not wish to break the tie between the Mother Country
and Canada, but this is a cold-blooded business proposition, and it seems to me that with all our natural and industrial resources we should do more ini the after.-the-war period to advertise our wares and our business than we have done heretofore.
If we had Canadian attaches in the British consulates on the continent, I think our trade would certainly be the gainer. My hon. friend is quite correct in saying that in view of the world revolution going on our trade at the present time is largely fictitious, tout even during this- revolutionary period, by taking the tide which leads on to fortune, Canada can build up a trade in connection with reconstructing the devastated areas in France, for instance, which I think would be of lasting advantage to this country. Look at what the Americans have done. Two years ago a conference of American business men and capitalists was called in the city of Boston, and all American business and industrial concerns were invited to unite in an effort to capture all the trade that would develop in reconstructing the devastated areas of France. I do not know whether my hon. friend followed that matter very closely, but a copy of the programme issued by the association came into my hands last year.
I cannot see why the Americans should get -preference over the Canadians in this line of business. I do not know why our business men from Toronto, Montreal, and other large industrial centres should not reap the benefits American business men are enjoying. They are rebuilding the cities and towns and villages in France which have been recaptured from the Germans by the Allied armies. Only the other day I read a very interesting article to the effect that the Quakers, whose tenets will not allow them to take part with the combatant armies, are going to help the Red Cross and help reconstruct the devastated villages and towns.
(Sir THOMAS WHITE, Minister of Finance, having entered the House after a prolonged absence through illness, and being warmly, greeted toy hon. members),


Rodolphe Lemieux: I hope I express the feeling of the House in welcoming back our hon. friend the Minister of Finance. Mr. Chairman, I would ask my right hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce to take note of the few remarks I -have made. They -are made in earnest. It seems to me that with pluck and with true sturdy Cana-dianism we should a-t least equal the Americans in capturing war trade. I call it war trade because it is trade that has developed

as a consequence of the war, but it will be lasting, (because the reconstruction period will extend over a number of years. When once the Canadians have reached these markets it will be seen that they are the equals, if not the superiors, of others. My right hon. friend said a moment ago that some business men had already, by their own efforts, done a great deal towards capturing that trade. That is quite true, as I have found out myself. I have travelled all around the globe, and I have found that the Massey-Harris firm, for instance, have sold their implements in every part of the world. In Australia, Asia, Japan, France, Russia, all over the world, that Toronto firm have been able to secure permanent customers. It is for us, during the present war, to extend the ramifications of our trade as far as possible. I said a moment ago that business and sentiment were different things. But sentiment helps to foster business, and what I am asking the Minister ,of Trade and Commerce to do is to foster the business of Canada during the present war.


William Foster Cockshutt: 
George Green Foster: Mr. Speaker, I wish. I could give a larger measure of en-

couragement than it is possible for me to of one of the Empresses, so that we shall do. Taking our great lines of shipping, have three boats on that service, according the efforts of the department have al- to present indications, for the remainder of most entirely been used to preserve what the season.
we had at the commencement of the war. With reference to the Trans-Atlantic Although it might appear to be only a-South African Service, we have had the sort of negative success, yet it is really same ups and downs. The Elder-Dempster a substantial one when you are able to Company, as I stated' here, have had more keep the routes manned somewhere up to than eighty-five per cent of their vessels the capacity of pre-war times. But the commandeered toy the British Government, necessities of the war are inexorable, and and they have lost a certain number outwhen it comes to a showdown as to whether commercial goods shall toe carried or the necessities of the war, there is no ground but one that can be taken, and the war necessities prevail.
Take the communications on the eastern side between Canada and Australia. We had our monthly service carried on with regularity for a number of years, and a large trade developed along that line. For the last four or five months it has not been possible to get a single vessel, either sailing ship or steam vessel, for that route; and although the most persistent efforts have been made both toy the company interested and by the department, there do not appear to be any more encouraging features now than three or four months ago.
On the western side we had a good service between Victoria and Vancouver and New Zealand and Australia, including some excellent freight boats. The Niagara and the Makura were vessels which would he an honour and pride to any steamship line or service, and the company's freight boats were good serviceable boats. One toy one the freight boats have been taken away, and just within the last fortnight, although I have been able to keep to date the two-vessels referred to on the route, in conjunction with efforts from New Zealand and Australia, they have been commandeered by the British Admiralty; and the best assurance the British Admiralty could give-in return -w.as to hold out a hope that two slower vessels would, as soon a-s- possible, toe placed on the route; so that there is- not much encouragement in that direction at the present time. We may get those two vessels again-, and we may not.
As to the China and Japan service, the big Empresses were taken off early in the war, and we had a maimed service for some time. Afterwards two of the Empresses were allowed to come toack, and for the last year the four vessels have been plying regularly. Within the last three weeks two Empresses have again been taken for war purposes, and this morning I received word that a smaller, but yet a serviceable, -vessel had been allocated to take the place
side of that. The company have done the very ibes-t they could to keep up the South African -connection, tout we have h-ad months of intermission in the service, getting a vessel whenever possible. For the l-ast three months there has -been no vessel in this route, tout within a fortnight I have received word that one has Ibeen- allocated, and will sail in June for -South Africa. This encouraging feature was -somewhat modified, when the announcement was m-ade tha-t the vessel would not -he able to take nearly all the freight which was offering-which is stored up in fact and offering-'but the promise is given that -as often as possible we shall g-et boats intermittently between South Africa and- Canada. The -South African Government is as strongly in favour of that as we are, and the efforts of both Governments are toeing used to that end.
As to South America, the situation is -a pretty difficult one. We have no vessels running on that route from Canada and the arrangements which have 'been, made owing to the war have comibed out everything that is serviceable. We do get vessels- going from New York occasionally, and have to make ourselves satisfied with what small freights we can g.et on those.
As to the West Indies, we had an excellent -service of four vessels, tout for the last two years it has been,' I think I may,say good naturedly, a real war to keep those vessels on. I have succeeded in keeping them on with the good-will of the Admiralty until the last month, when two of them have been commandeered, with a sort of indefinite promise that if any vessel, a slower one, can toe allocated it will toe-but there *you are.
With regard to the Atlantic service, my hon. friend knows the circumstances as well as I do. No-w here is the situation: There are ships -building in Great Britain and the United States, to mention no other countries. Large tonnage is being put into construction in the United States as well as in Great Britain, but we must not hold our hopes too high on the reparation of the

losses in tonnage Iby new building in the United States. The new building -and the new launchings in the United States have in view the building up of an army which- may go to live -millions, or seven millions, or even- to ten millions-, every mouth of which has to be fed- practically by transported grain -and' other foodstuffs from this side, and all the munitions of war necessary to go with the transport of those troops have to be provided for. That makes the man who thinks come to the conclusion that there will not be much alleviation for commercial freights in that respect, in so far as the coming year is concerned.
Now I have made a candid statement to the House. Everybody, I think, sees the difficulty and when you are right up against the statement of the Admiralty: is it the war or is it commerce, you have to give way to the absolute necessities.
Mr. DEC'HENE: I have listened with a great deal of pleasure to the explanations made by the Minister of Trade and Commerce but there is one point that comes to my mind and to which I would like to invite the attention of the House. A very able report has been made to the Government with respect to an international or imperial bank that would look after the interests- of Canada with other countries.
I would like to know from the minister what has been done by the Government- towards furthering the idea of incorporating a big bank that will take charge of international banking interests in connection with Canadian industries; a bank that will be posted on the commercial condition of every nation. For such an undertaking we would require a bulletin which will -contain information- of a more extensive character than, -those of the present weekly bulletin. I read the weekly bulletin published by the department with a -great deal of interest, and I think it has already shown ithe way to increase ou-r commercial interests. But we need more information relating to financial conditions and inter-exchange, to make matters easier for purposes of commerce. To-day I think we have only two banks to take care of our bills outside -of this country, .the Bank of Montreal and the -Royal Bank, and possibly the Canadian Bank of Commerce. I would like Ito ask the minister if he knows what has been done towards adopting the report of Senator Nicholls and creating a bank of that kind?


George Green Foster: I think my hon. friend -is on good ground when he says that 
the extension of trade and banking facilities must go hand in hand. Probably we have suffered in thalt respect as a young country. Our banks have been taking Charge of our commercial affairs and ministering to them in this country, and in our rapid development I -think our banks have had pretty nearly all they could do, and they have done their work on the whole excellently well. An example of where banking extension helps trade is shown in a small way in the West India Islands, where our commercial subsidies provide transportation and our banks undertake work of a financial nature. In fact, they are now, I think, the dominant .banks in those islands. They have also made the beginning of a push -into the South American continent. These matters, of course, must be left, both as to trade and financial facilities, with the people themselves very largely. It is unwise to ask the Government ito attempt to do what financial and 'business men and manufacturers and traders have the first interest in doing, -and can do much better than any other agency. The Government's w-ork is to prepare the way by gathering and distributing information of the -best and most reliable kind, and by doing what it can in the way of commercial subsidies, and in -all ways- to stimulate a knowledge and interest between our own and other countries. But the Government cannot start banks and cannot build commercial lines and' put them on these routes. Tihe business and the financial men of the country must co-operate if we are to be successful. And the Government will aid in every possible way that a Government can. My hon. friend from Maison-neuve (Mr. Lemieux) cited the fact of an aggregation of United States business men for securing trade in France, and he might have said in, other neutral and foreign countries. But it was the business men who aggregated themselves together, made the organization and-adopted the methods. The operation was assisted and aided by the consular system and trade intelligence system of the United States .Government. Bu-t the United States Government, having paved the way, and added its customary forces, the business -men -and the bankers themselves -must go the rest of the gait. So it is with reference to our own people here. Just now I think any hon. friend will quite agree with me that our banks have about all they can do to carry the load upon their shoulders in Canada at the present time. Even if they had a little leisure time, and a little more strength, conditions are

so confused in other countries that they do not lend themselves to the propagation of branch banks, or the establishment of parent banks. These things will have to wait, as so many others, until the war period is over and settled conditions begin to appear again. With reference to the allusion to the report and speech of a member of the other House, I am quite cognizant of the senator's good speeches and good work, and hope that it will bear fruit in an aggregation of capital which will tend towards the desired end, the same as is being done in Great Britain, but which is being done by the financial interests and business men themselves. At the present time the difficulties are so great for launching anything of that kind that our men may well pause before undertaking it.


Jacques Bureau: I notice that this item reads: "Trade commissioners and commercial agents, including expenses in connection with negotiations of treaties or in extension of commercial relations." May I ask what treaty the minister has in contemplation to negotiate during the coming year? How much of this money will be used in negotiating treaties?
Sir-GEORGE FOSTER:	None that one
knows; yet as my hon. friend will see, the moment the war ceases these matters have to be taken up, and a portion of this vote is intended for any expenses which may be necessary with reference to possible negotiations. At the present time there are none in contemplation and none under way.	.


Jacques Bureau: Does this vote cover the commercial agents located in various countries?


George Green Foster: All of the agents.


Jacques Bureau: It covers their salaries
as well?


George Green Foster: Yes.


Jacques Bureau: If the minister can tell
us how much will be required for salaries, we will know what margin is left for the negotiation of treaties, so that we will have an idea of the importance to be attached to the negotiations.


George Green Foster: Probably about
$20,000 of that vote would be available for that purpose. Maybe less. But a good deal depends upon how things turn out and how our trade commissioners are able to work.
Bounties on lead and crude petroleum. To cover expenditure in connection with the administration of the Acts, $4,000.


George Green Foster: These are for
the bounties on lead and oil, the usual vote.


Jacques Bureau: There is a decrease of
$1,000. Has production decreased?


George Green Foster: The bounties
on lead, as my hon. friend knows, if he has the Act in mind, depend as to whether or not the price of lead in the markets of the world falls below a certain amount. If it falls below a certain amount there is a bounty paid,; if it keeps above that amount none is paid. 'The vote was not all spent last year. One cannot tell how the prices on lead will go,. ,So we have to take a sufficient amount to carry us through if the lead	price-I	do not believe
it will happen this year- should go down lower than the sum at which bounties would accrue.
Salaries, rent, wages and contingencies under the Canada Grain Act, $1,050,000.


George Green Foster: We will let this item stand.


Jacques Bureau: When will it be taken
up?


George Green Foster: To-morrow, I hope.


Jacques Bureau: I have received a pamphlet entitled, "Should the Canada Grain Act be Enforced." I suppose the minister has received a copy of it. I wish to put some questions with regard to this item.


Mr. ROBB:: When the minister takes this item up, will he be prepared to give a statement of the expenses of operating and the revenue received from the terminal elevators?


George Green Foster: I will give all the information.
Item stands.
To provide for the construction, acquisition, leasing or expropriation of terminal elevators, $50,000.


George Green Foster: This item follows the wording of the vote under which we built our terminal and interior elevators in the Northwest from the head of the Lakes to Vancouver, including the preliminary work with respect to the proposed elevator at Hudson bay. All these elevators have been finished except the one at Hudson bay. It is not proposed to do any work there during the present year, and no amount

has been put in the Estimates for that purpose. This vote is to make provision for such expenditures as may be necessary to provide new machinery and equipment in the elevators that we already have. Last year $25,262 was spent under that head. You never cam tell what may happen in the way of the breaking down of machinery in these elevators or the necessity for new machinery, and you have to have some money on hand to defray such expenses.


Jacques Bureau: Do the grain elevators which are part of a railway system come under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Trade and Commerce?


George Green Foster: Yes, in part,


Jacques Bureau: Are the elevators at Fort William under the jurisdiction of the minister?


George Green Foster: Yes.


Jacques Bureau: Are they not part of the Canadian Northern system?


George Green Foster: No, not ours.


Jacques Bureau: What distinction do you make between elevators inherited by this country through the Canadian Northern system and those inherited from the persons who constructed them?


George Green Foster: Those inherited elevators of which my hon. friend has so happily spoken become the inheritance of the department which took over the railways and which has jurisdiction over the system of which the newly acquired lines form a part.	.


Jacques Bureau: Would it not be better and more economical to put all these elevators under one management? I do not see why they should not all be under the authority of one department.


Sir GEORGE  POSTER@: There may be
two opinions on that point.- In one sense it would be better if all graimhandling elevators were under one control and management. But circumstances arise which make it difficult to carry that principle into operation. I do not know that the expense is any greater in either case. For instance, the elevator in Quebec is operated by the Quebec Harbour Commission, a body which, in a sense, is an appointee of and gets its money under loan from the Government. The same applies to Montreal. The harbour commissioners operate their .elevators in connection with the harbours over which they have jurisdiction. These elevators, however, come under certain regulations; in

many of their relations they are not operated by the Canada Grain Board. The railway companies, in some way work their elevators on the general line of their traffic and consequently do what the Grain Board cannot possibly do. These elevators also are subject to the general regulations respecting warehousing, inspection and the like. .


Jacques Bureau: The inland elevators are fed by the railroads and the terminal elevators, such as those at Montreal and Quebec, transfer the grain from the cars to the steamers. Uniform regulation? must be established respecting transhipment, shortages or leakages in the elevators, and so on. Why not have the whole system controlled by one department? These elevators are closely connected with the transportation question; they are practically intermediate between the railway systems and the steamship services far as grain is concerned.
Why not le!t the Railway Department, which has under its control the transportation facilities of the country, have the management, control and oversight of all those elevators? I do not find fault with the minister, but I have had occasion before to make this criticism in the House, that there is some duplication or overlapping.


George Green Foster: Not necessarily


Jacques Bureau: There are two authorities over those elevators. Those elevators can serve but one purpose, namely, to store the country's produce which is bought for export, and then to turn it over to the steamer that is to take it overseas, or the freight oars that are to take it elsewhere. The operations of those elevators should be uniform, and you cannot obtain the same degree of efficiency so far as uniformity is concerned, by having two departments controlling them, as by having only one.
Census and statistics, $100,000.
)Mr. BUREAU: Is this for the new and famous department that has been inaugurated this session?


George Green Foster: This is, as I explained to my hon. friend when the Bill went through, not new and not altogether the same as the old one. lit is the old, improved, reinvigorated and made more effective.
Mr. iMcMASTER:	The mouldering
branches are cut away.


George Green Foster: There never were any mouldering branches, but new shoots

have been put in. Just watch the new shoots shooting forth.
Dominions Royal Commission, $5,0O'O.


Jacques Bureau: What is this Dominions Royal Commission?


George Green Foster: In 1912 there was issued by the British Government a Royal Commission, consisting of representatives from the self-governing Dominions and the United Kingdom.


Rodolphe Lemieux: 
George Green Foster: The hon. member mentions one of the volumes. There is another volume, which, I think, is. equally important. There is not extant to-day a statistical statement with the same modernity, the 6a,me grasp and scope, as. the statistics compiled and issued in that volume. Not only does it contain the best of the published statistics of each country, but it has those supplemented by actual investigations made by the commissioners themselves in all those countries, and special statistical tables with reference to different lines of production, resources and such things, which information does, not exist in any other statistics.


Rodolphe Lemieux: And about the ports?


George Green Foster: Yes, about all those things. Besides that, there are in the addenda, most valuable and exhaustive reports upon most of the great lines of activity, given by eminent engineers and ether eminent authorities, which reports lie there as a veritable thesaurus, a treasure-house of fact, which you could not get anywhere else. I make that statement here so that hon. members, who take an interest in those things, may have their attention directed to the report. That commission arose, as the committee knows, out of the deliberations and conclusions of an Imperial Conference.


Rodolphe Lemieux: In 1911?


George Green Foster: Whatever was the purpose of the conference, whether it was to avoid a difficulty or whether it was to have a difficulty solved by a better medium than the simple cogitations of the members of the commission sitting in London for a few days or a few weeks, that commission started on a recommendation of the Imperial Conference of 1911. That report goes back to the British Government, and it will be submitted to the Imperial Conference when it next meets. Some of the suggestions of the Dominions Royal Commission have already been embodied, in whole or in part, in action which has already been taken by the British Government.


Rodolphe Lemieux: To what extent?


George Green Foster: But here again you come to a time of flux. For the reconstruction period, you have, in those statistics and in that information, the best and the only large fundamental basis of information which will be so valuable for reconstruction purposes. Everything is brought up to the commencement of the war when things became confused, and since when statistics are not of very great



value so far as permanent and normal conditions are concerned.


Rodolphe Lemieux: When the time comes to take action on the recommendations of that commission and on the very valuable information contained in that report, the oniy difficulty that the minister will have to contend with will be the traditional quar-reh between the English free-trader and the new protectionist school in England. That is very apparent in the deliberations of the commission. However, my hon. friend probably gave the only reason why no action has been taken when he said that as long as the war lasts it is difficult to take any action at all. Still, I might tell him that some very active industrial interests are at present ,at work in order to promote the ideas which at the time of the deliberations of that commission were mooted in favour of inter-imperial protection. I see that an association recently started in Toronto, under the name of the Reconstruction Industrial Association, has issued a circular the names on which are the best evidence that it is a protective association, or, to put it more clearly, an association for the advancement of protectionist principles during the period following the war. This Association, of course, has been very active during the war because it is due to the activities of these same men that the tariff has been increased by seven and one-half per cent.	[DOT]


George Green Foster: Come off.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I am not going to deliver a budget speech, but we are discussing trade and my hon. friend is evading the issue as much as possible. I am going to state that the Laurier Government had appointed in 1910 or 1911 to take part in the deliberations of that commission a man of the very highest qualifications, Mr. P. C. Larkin of Toronto, one of the most brilliant business men in the Dominion. Was it because Mr. Larkin entertained free trade ideas that his name was removed as soon as this Government came into office? He was replaced, I think, by my hon. friend himself.


George Green Foster: Yes, by a good free trader.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I know my hon. friend started as a free trader in New Brunswick and became a protectionist later; in the same way, perhaps, that he started as a good Canadian and ended as a strong Imperialist. Is it not possible to have from the minister a clear enunciation of the
[Sir George Foster.!
policy of the Government, as to the conclusions of that commission's report?


George Green Foster: My hon. friend, unwittingly I am bound to believe, conveyed an impression which I should not like to see left permanently on the minds of the committee. That commission was appointed and did its work with the idea and under instructions that neither free trade nor protection should enter into its work, and that idea was absolutely carried out in all the investigations and work of that commission. There were men on it who held different views with regard to tariffs and trade, but they never obtruded their opinions in the work of the commis*-sion, nor were other people allowed to dis

cuss the merits of these subjects when any investigations were being carried on and the information was being gathered; and I think any hon. gentleman who peruses that report will find abundant evidence to support my statement. I am not going to take up the time of the House in any disquisitions upon past or future trade policies. We shall come to that by-and-by. I know that some of our friends opposite are burning hot for such a discussion, but let them bottle up their enthusiasm and come back perhaps a year after the war is over, when we will interchange views with regard to the matter.


Rodolphe Lemieux: My hon. friend has perhaps read what the chief organ of the Government in the city of Toronto, the Toronto Globe, published on Saturday with regard to that association.


George Green Foster: My hon. friend having supreme control of one organ of the Opposition, is running away with the idea that other sensible men have organs. The Government has no organ; each member of the Government is his own organ, and all the members of the Government together is the Government organ, and if my hon. .friend will pay due attention to that organ and not fritter away his time on what he, considers to be Government organs, he will get alon^ better.
West India caible, $38,M3.33.


Jacques Bureau: Is this a subsidy?


George Green Foster: It is a subsidy payment under the agreement entered into 'by Great Britain, Canada and the West Indian Islands, each paying one-third, with the object of cheapening and improving telegraphic communication with the Islands.
To provide for the development and extension of Canadian trade $150,000


Jacques Bureau: May I ask what is the
difference between the extension of commercial relations, for which we have just voted $160,000, and the extension of Canadian trade, for which we are now asked to vote $150,000?


George Green Foster: 
Jacques Bureau: The minister is enumerating the water-powers of Canada and speaking of the advantage of advertising these water-powers. I absolutely agree as to the wisdom of advertising them, but in the enumeration of those water-powers which are being shown he started with the

West, came east, and then reverted to the hydro-electric system. What Montreal adjuncts did you refer to?


George Green Foster: The powers tributary to Montreal.


Jacques Bureau: What are they?


George Green Foster: Those big powers that you have on the St. Lawrence.


Jacques Bureau: Those alone?


George Green Foster: Yes, we grouped them by cities, taking those tributary to Vancouver, Calgary, Winnipeg and Montreal.


Jacques Bureau: If you desire to show the best water-powers in Canada, they are not shown.


George Green Foster: The best water-powers are shown. We have made a selection of the best in Canada.


Jacques Bureau: Where is the St. Maurice river?


George Green Foster: We cannot show them all.


Jacques Bureau: That is the best in Canada.


George Green Foster: We have shown Shawinigan.


Jacques Bureau: Then you have the St. Maurice.


George Green Foster: Then again, with a view to making the films interesting, we have introduced other features, and have prepared films for distribution throughout most of the countries in the world.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What is the name of the professor?


George Green Foster: Dr. McLennan. He is a member of the Advisory Board of Scientific Research, has been lent to the British Government this year and is engaged over there with assistants from Toronto in a very important investigation. '
Then we have arranged for what you might call the lighter, but still important, points in the representation of Canada. We have twenty-six copies of the "Banff National Park"; twenty-six copies of "The Great Natural Industries of Canada"; twenty-[y-six of the Lake Louise region; twenty-six of the "Water-Powers of Western Canada," and I have given those already; twenty-six of "Through Canada from Coast to Coast" which affords the onlooker an idea of the journey from the Pacific to the Atlantic coast, showing the" scenery, the

big cities, the method of travel and so on. Others are "How Canada and the Farmers co-operate in the Great West" and "The Agricultural Opportunities of Western Canada." We have also been able to purchase of Mr. Byron Harmon, of Banff, six thousand feet of negatives. It is a fine negative of the finest bit of scenery that there is in Canada, and I think in the world, and we have bought it outright. Now what are we doing with those? We are circulating them through the theatres and film establishments of Canada, the United States, New Zealand, Australia, Great Britain, China and Japan to a certain extent, and * there are some other countries where they would have been exhibited had it not been for operations being interfered with by the war. I want to read the first report that we have received with reference to those exhibitions. We have made a contract for the showing of them with a company, which company exhibits them through all the countries which I have mentioned.
The reports from our branch offices are beginning to come in week by week, showing the number of theatres in which your series appeared. We are very much pleased at the reception these films are getting by the theatre owners and bookings are very favourable. I am sure you will be pleased with them. The first nine weeks that Bake Louise was in service it appeared in 315 theatres. The first eight weeks that Banff was in service it appeared! an 241 theatres. The first seven weeks that Natural Industries was in service it appeared in 2127 theatres. The first six weeks that Western Water-Powers was in service it appeared in 199 theatres. The first five weeks that Coast to Coast was in service it appeared in 173 theatres. The first four weeks that Grain Raising was in service it appeared in 146 theatres. The (first three weeks that Agriculture was in service it appeared in 94 theatres. The first two weeks that Eastern Water-Powers was in service it appeared in 60 theatres. When these are averaged up for the number of weeks that they have been in service, the averages will vary from thirty theatres to thirty-six and a half theatres per subject per week. This is not including the Dominion of Canada. We have not as yet received any reports from our Dominion offices. Of course it is entirely too early for reports from our England ofBoe and for the Australian reports considerable additional time is required. At the lowest possible estimate the first picture, Lake Louise, which has been in service for nine weeks, has been seen by 572,400 people. I think that three-quarters of a million would be more nearly correot but 1 would rather be a little more conservative.
There is every indication that these reports will continue favourable in the future. As soon as we get additional reports in any volume I will forward them to you.
I thought it well that the committee should know what is being done at a time

when the war keeps us from doing almost anything else. The people crowd to these places, they look and they see, and they hear lectures delivered, of either longer or shorter duration, and they get an impression in a wonderfully vivid and comprehensive way, and at a minimum cost, which remains with them, and will, I think, inure to the very great advantage of the Dominion in the future.


Joseph Bruno Aimé Miville Déchêne: Is it the intention to have any films taken of water-powers that are unharnessed?


George Green Foster: We already have in our pictures unharnessed waters.


John Howard Sinclair: How many years will he necessary to take observations of water-powers in order to give a reliable estimate of the horse-power available? For example, there may be a dry season when the observations are taken, and the following year the season may be such that the report would be altogether different.


George Green Foster: That point is easily met- The waters are always there, and in your picture you have those waters -you cannot get away from' that. There may be a little less water at one time than another, but the great volume of power is there. Then there is the legend which accompanies the film, and on that appears the statement in large letters of the extent of the water-power-the quantity which is being used, the development which is possible, and with regard to any unharnessed water-powers, the estimate, so far as one can possibly be made, of what those powers are capable of producing when harnessed. The difficulty that my hon. friend sees does not therefore exist.


John Howard Sinclair: My question had reference to the unharnessed water-powers. I do not think it would be safe to base your calculations on the volume of water one year, because the following year the season might be different in character, and in consequence the volume of water very much less.
Bureau of Industrial and Scientific Research : -Salaries and Expenses, including printing and stationery, and the collection and distribution of information and for studentships, fellowships. special problems and forestry studies, $1)20,000.


Mr.   McM ASTER@: I suppose the item has no reference to the hon. member for Three Rivers, who is a "Bureau" of industrial and scientific research every day?


George Green Foster: That Bureau is unique.


Jacques Bureau: The only thing on record in the House is that the member for Three Rivers was not a bureau of information, and that is on the authority of the late member for Dauphin, Mr. Glen Campbell.


George Green Foster: If we had that "Bureau" in the Estimates I should think we would have to pay about $500,000.


Jacques Bureau: Let the item be carried. I cannot do anything less after that. I was going to ask if the sum of $28,000 increase is in connection with sending young men on exploration for study every year? If so it is for a good purpose.


George Green Foster: It is for that purpose.	#


Mr.   McM ASTER@: I would like to know what these scholarships and fellowships are.


George Green Foster: A report was laid on the table of the House the other day which contains a full exposition of all that has been done. That report deals with the fellowships and the work of. the students.
Department of Immigration and Colonization: -Civil Government salaries, $12i3,117.50-Contingencies, $2'5,0'0'0.


Georges Henri Boivin: When these Estimates were first brought before the Committee, it was found that they were incorrect as printed on page 18, and an amended page was printed and distributed to members through the Post Office. If any hon. gentleman has not this page, there are some typewritten sheets here for the convenience of members.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Will the minister explain the increase?


Mr. CALDER:: There is an increase of $13,175-


Mr.   McM ASTER@: I am sorry to have to tell the minister that we are unable to hear a single word he said.


James Alexander Calder: I was stating that there is an increase in the vote of $13,175. That increase is made up by an increase in the staff of two, the deputy minister and the minister's private secretary. These are the only increases in the staff. As was explained to the House previously, the officers in this department came over entirely from the Interior Department. These two extra officers receive a salary of $8,100. In addition to that, there are statutory increases of $4,625, and some small items amounting to about $400, which make up the total increase of $13,175.


Ernest Lapointe: Who is the deputy minister of the department?


James Alexander Calder: At the present time, Mr. Cory is acting as deputy minister.


Rodolphe Lemieux: A good man.


James Alexander Calder: He is the Deputy Minister of the Department of the Interior. When the Immigration Department undertakes the new work, which I hope it will some time in -the not far distant future, I think it will he necessary then to have another deputy in charge. But until we work out the new policies that are to be brought into operation, I -felt that it was just as well to let the department continue very much as it has in the past.


Ernest Lapointe: I suppose he is not drawing two salaries?


James Alexander Calder: No.
Salaries of Agents and Employees in Canada, Great Britain and Foreign Countries, $550,000.


Mr. EULER:: I would like to ask the minister whether this vote includes the salary of immigration officials in the United States, for example, in the city of Philadelphia. I think there is a branch of the immigration service there. I would like to know what is the nature of the duties of such branches. For example, in Philadelphia, what does the man do in that particular branch?


James Alexander Calder: All of our agents, I understand, in the United States carry out very much the siame work. We have agents located at -something like eighteen points in the United States. The offices are established for the purpose of disseminating information with respect to the possibilities of Canada as a field of emigration. In addition to that, there are at all of our agencies a great many inquiries made with respect to many matters relating to Canada, and our officials are there for the purpose of furnishing persons seeking information with any information which it is possible for them to give. These offices are only established for the purpose of disseminating information regarding Canada.


William Daum Euler: It occurred to me that possibly at this time, when there is very little immigration, some of these offices might be discontinued. I am free to admit that it is quite possible that they may be doing effective work. But I would like to draw to the attention of the minister one instance at least, of an immigration officer who is, I think, rather exceeding his duties, that is the case of the officer at Philadelphia about whom I had a question on the order paper this morning, a man

who took a most active -and offensive part in the conduct of the elections, writing partisan articles in a paper of which he was formerly the editor. -It seems to me that it would be the duty of the department to curb actions of that kind on the part of any official of the Government. I refer to Mr. Jaffray of Philadelphia.


James Alexander Calder: I may say, Mr. Chairman, that I thoroughly agree with what the hon. member has said. It is only recently that that matter was brought to my attention. I think it is very unfortunate that any officer in the position which Mr. Jaffray occupies should undertake to write articles to the press of the nature complained of in this House, and I certainly disapprove of any such conduct on the part of any official of the department. I have the matter under consideration and am endeavouring to get the exact facts.
With reference to the- general statement that there is no work being done in the United Stat-ee at the present time in the way of securing immigrants for -Canada, I can assure the hon. gentleman that that is not correct. As a matter of fact, some-ting like 75,000 people came to Canada from the United States last year, and that is a very large number. And there is a possibility from the outlook at the present time that we will have even a larger immigration from the United States this year. As a matter of fact, our agencies are quite busy and doing good work there. Our work in the Old Country and in Europe has, of course, practically ceased. I might also say that, as- regards our work in the United States, it is my intention during the year to have all of our agencies thoroughly inspected with a view to seeing what economies can be effected. I feel we can effect a good many economies in that direction, just as we will be able to do in Canada itself. We have a very large staff. A good many duties have been added to the immigration -staff in Canada during the course of the last two years. Nevertheless I feel that if the matter is carefully inquired into we can utilize the staff as a whole on a much more efficient basis, and effect a good many economies. In eo far as our agencies in the United States are concerned they will all be very carefully reviewed during the present season.
Mr. McMAlSTER:	May I ask the minister whether any statistics are kept in his department which would enable him to advise the committee as to the number of immigrants which originate in the territory served by the different offices, and the

cost of operating the offices from which the immigrants in question originate? If such statistics could be kept it would be of great assistance to the House in deciding whether these very considerable sums of money are really justified. Take the case of this Philadelphian agent, who writes offensive partisan .articles for a paper in western Ontario; it would be interesting to know what his salary was and how many Philadelphians through his eloquence and persuasive powers were induced to come to Canada. And that principle, if followed in all the offices, would enable the minister to advise the House, and enable the House to judge, as to whether the country was really getting value for this money.


James Alexander Calder: I hardly think that these offices as at present constituted wouid be able to furnish that information. However,
I shall take my hon. friend's suggestion into consideration.
Mr. MoMASTER: We should have some check on these immigrants with a view to finding out where they come from. For instance, if we spent $10,000 on an agency in Pennsylvania and for three or four years no immigrants come to Canada from that state, the offioe in that state would not be worth the amount expended.


William Daum Euler: The suggestion that offices of that kind might be dispensed with arose from the fact that the gentleman spoken of, an official of. the department, apparently does not devote all his time to promoting immigration and colonization for Canada.
I am glad to know that the minister intends to look into, this matter.


Charles Murphy: When was Mr. Jaffray appointed in Philadelphia?


James Alexander Calder: Within the last two or three years, I think.
Contingencies in Canadian, British and foreign agencies, and general immigration expenses! $550,000.
Mr. DuTREMBLAY: How much of that is spent in Europe?


James Alexander Calder: I have not that information before me, hut if the hon. gentleman is .anxious to have it I will bring it down.


John Howard Sinclair: In a general way, what /are' these contingencies ?


James Alexander Calder: The large items include: advertising, $240,000; printing, $45,000; expenses of our agencies in the United States, $100,000; expenses of our agencies in Great Britain, $50,000; location of settlers, $25,-
000; boundary expenses, $35,000; deportation expenses, $10,000, a total of $505,000. The balance is made up by a great variety of small items.


John Howard Sinclair: Is this advertising in Canadian newspapers?


James Alexander Calder: In the papers of United States, Great Britain and, to some extent, Canada.


John Howard Sinclair: We are getting no immigrants from Europe; why should we spend so much money on advertising in Great Britain?


James Alexander Calder: Only a small amount of
advertising is done there at present. Two or three years ago the expenditure on immigration work was about $1,900,000. A reduction of $800,000 was effected and this year we are cutting the expenditure down by a further $100,000. If we wish to undertake immigration work in Great Britain after the war it is necessary that we maintain our organization there, and that a limited amount of advertising be done in order to keep Canada's possibilities before the people of that .country. During the present year I hope to be able to go to England with a view to finding out what the actual conditions are. I am advised New Zealand, Australia, and the other dominions are carrying on a very active propaganda, and we may have to spend imore money if we wish to secure the results after the war that every person in the country is looking for.


John Howard Sinclair: What staffs have you in Great Britain and in foreign countries?


James Alexander Calder: We have twelve offices in the British Islands. The total staff numbers about sixty, thirty-five of whom are in London. Most of these offices were opened many years ago. The'staffs of all the offices have been cut down to a minimum. Our offices in United Kingdom-this applies particularly to the office in London-have been exceedingly busy during the last two years.
One can understand that, with the large number of Canadians overseas, theTe are a great many who frequent those offices The officers have charge of all the booking arrangements for those, apart from so'diers, who are coming to Canada, and at times they have been exceedingly busy and have had to add to their staffs in order to cope with the work which they are undertaking. As an illustration, I might mention a case that occurred not long ago. The British Admiralty sent word to the commissioner that they had a boat available for two or


Rodolphe Lemieux: Might I ask the minister if, in addition to endeavouring to secure immigration from the British Isles, the United States and some other countries, he will endeavour to bring Belgians to Canada? Only yesterday I received, from a gentleman at present in France, a letter stating that many of the Belgian refugees in France contemplated taking up land in Canada if 'land were available. I need not tell my hon. friend that the Belgian is a very desirable settler, not only for the prairies hut as a market gardener. Wherever you find a Belgian around a city, you will find a splendid garden and a hardworking man, intelligently cultivating the land and supplying the market with garden produce. We have an opportunity of inducing many of those refugees, both in France and in England, to come to Canada, and I would advise the minister to look after that Belgian immigration. We know that Belgium is small in area and can hardly maintain the large population which it had before the war, and with all the patriotism that honours the Belgians, it is to be expected that thousands of them will prefer to come to the United States or to Canada to returning to their own country. I would advise my hon. friend to appoint a special agent to interview those people in England and France in order to capture our share of that most desirable class of immigration.


James Alexander Calder: The matter to. which my hon. friend alludes will receive attention.
At six o'clock the House took recess.
After Recess.
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Administration of Chinese Immigration- salaries, $24,(WO, contingencies, $5,000.


Jacques Bureau: I should like to know where the men are located for whom we are voting $24,000, and what their duties are.


James Alexander Calder: The officials are located at Victoria, Vancouver, Union Bay, Powell River, and Chemainus, in British Columbia, and at Montreal in the province of Quebec. The total number of officials employed is twenty, and their duties are in connection with Chinese immigrants entering or attempting to enter Canada. It is their duty to see that the regulations and restrictions on Chinese immigration are complied with. There are seven officials in Victoria and eleven in Vancouver, including clerks and stenographers.	.


Jacques Bureau: After what happened last year does the minister expect there will be a greater Chinese immigration this year than last? Is a patrol maintained on the border to prevent the smuggling into Canada of Chinese, and what officials are guarding against this smuggling? I understand there is an organization of detectives or other employees engaged in this work.


James Alexander Calder: We have about 200 or. 250 inspectors along the boundary, and it is their duty to prevent any person, whether Chinese or not, entering Canada who is not entitled to come in under the law. Speaking offhand, I think last year there were about 16,000 rejections of intending immigrants to Canada, who were not permitted to come in under the law. I would imagine that all our boundary inspectors have been instructed to see that no Chinese come in who are not entitled to do: so. .


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I was told by an official of the department that after a certain date Chinamen were not allowed to enter this country. Are they still coming in?


James Alexander Calder: Yes. Some five hundred or so came in last year.


James Alexander Robb: Referring to the item of general immigration expenses, is it still the policy of the department to distribute among the schools of foreign countries, more particularly of Great Britain, the atlas that has been sent out a number of years showing the size and resources of the different provinces of Canada? I am fold it was a very useful method, of advertising our country.


James Alexander Calder: The policy is still being carried out in Great Britain, and to a lesser extent in the United States. After the war broke out we cut down our expenses in Great Britain, and as a result the distribution has not been as large as in former years. I intend during the present year to review carefully the whole question of the preparation and distribution of literature not only in Great Britain but in the United

States as well. We have spent large sums of money in that direction, and I think every effort should be made to get as much value as we can from this class of expenditure.
Supplementary estimates 1917-18-Department of Immigration and Colonization-to provide for the salary of the Private Secretary from October 12, 1917, at the rate of $2,500 per annum, $1,176.06.


Jacques Bureau: 
James Alexander Calder: His salary is included in the main estimates. He is in subdivision B of the first division.


Jacques Bureau: Item No. 326 in the Supplementary Estimates is to provide for the private secretary at $2,500?


James Alexander Calder: Yes.


Jacques Bureau: The secretary for whom we are voting this salary now has no other official position! in the department? This is to provide for the secretary of the minister?'


James Alexander Calder: Yes.
Civil Government-Privy Council Office-* salaries, $44,900, contingencies, $10,000.


Jacques Bureau: I see.
1st division, sub-division A: -Assistant clerk of Privy Council at $4,000.
Who is the Assistant Clerk of the Privy Council and when was he appointed?


Mr. ROWELL:: Mr. Bennetts, who has
been in the Privy Council office for over thirty years, and is one of the oldest officials in the office.


Jacques Bureau: When was he appointed?


Newton Wesley Rowell: I do not know, but he was appointed long before I became President of the Privy Council.


Jacques Bureau: There is the assistant clerk at $4,000, and another at $3,925. To whom does the latter item refer?


Newton Wesley Rowell: That refers to one of the clerks in the department, Mr. Mackenzie, who has been there for a great many years.


Jacques Bureau: Then I see:
2nd division, sub-division A: one at $2,100; one at $1,850; one at $1,625.
I would like to know who these clerks are. Are they old clerks who are being increased, or are they new appointments? Take, for instance, four at $2,600 in the First Division subdivision B.


Newton Wesley Rowell: These four are old clerks in the department, and it is proposed to advance one, Mr. Belanger, a translator, from 2A to IB.


Jacques Bureau: Is that translator at
$2,100? '


Newton Wesley Rowell: Yes.
Mr. BUREAU; And the other clerks are at $2,600?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Yes.


Jacques Bureau: What is the particular work that the gentlemen at $2,600 have to do that makes their salary larger than that of the translator, who is a technical man and requires special and greater knowledge than an ordinary clerk, in that he must know two languages to be able to be a translator?


Newton Wesley Rowell: The only reason I can give is that these clerks have been there a great many years, and have been advanced by the usual statutory increases until their salaries have reached this figure. The translator has been in 2A and because of the large amount of work be is called upon to do and the excellence of his work, I am advancing him from 2A to IB. In the second division, subdivision 2, there is one clerk on the list at $1,150. That is an error. There are just four altogether and the details should only be given as to four.


Jacques Bureau: Taking the second division, subdivision B, I find two at $1,300, one at $1,225, one at $1,175, one at $1,150, one at $1,100. Are there any new appointments among these?


Newton Wesley Rowell: There are no new appointments except one of the messengers. When we come to the Supplementary Estimates there will be another item in the first division of subdivision B, to provide for the salary of my private secretary, which was omitted by mistake in the Main Estimates.


Jacques Bureau: What is the salary?


Newton Wesley Rowell: It is $2,800.


Mr. OOPP:: I would like to understand what is proposed in regard to that. I see

in the Main Estimates, under Civil Government, an item:
Allowance for private secretary, $600.
I see a similar item in the estimates of all the other departments. Why is there a salary and an allowance provided? Why is it not all iput under the heading of salary instead of having one vote under the head of salary and another under the head of allowance?


Newton Wesley Rowell: That appears to have been the custom for many years in all the departments of the Government, and it has been done here the same as in other departments.


Albert James Smith Copp: We have a new man now at the head of this department, and we might very well change 'the old order of things and not continue to put in two items, one for salary and one for allowance. Why do you not put the item in at $3,400, so that we will know what the private secretary is really getting? When you find one item here for one amount and another item some place else for another amount it looks as if you were trying to smuggle it through. Why not put it all in one sum, so that everybody will understand what the private secretaries of the ministers are getting?


Mr.   McM ASTER@: I would say that this is an excellent time to change the order which has hitherto obtained. I see that the minister bows his head; but as he was for some time associated with the reform party in Ontario I imagine he might make this reform in his department with propriety.


Newton Wesley Rowell: I will take it into consideration between now and next session.


Jacques Bureau: I suppose I may be allowed without being called to order, to refer to the provision made in the estimates for the minister's private secretary. In the supplementary estimates for the year ending March 31, 1919, a sum of $361 appears and in the main estimates there is another sum for this gentleman. Now T ask the minister if his private secretary is a new appointment?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Yes, a new appointment.


Jacques Bureau: What position has he in the Privy Council Department?


Newton Wesley Rowell: He is my private secretary.


Jacques Bureau: In the law that we have just passed we have laid it down that a private secretary shall occupy that position

only. But the minister is establishing a new rule according to the statement that he makes. This gentleman not only acts as private secretary but holds another official position in the department.


Newton Wesley Rowell: He is not performing any other duties. He is a clerk in the department; the same as any other officer, and draws the salary fixed in the Estimates the same as the private secretaries of all the other ministers.


Ernest Lapointe: Then he does not come under the new rule laid down in the Bill which has just been passed?


Newton Wesley Rowell: He comes under the law as it stood at the time of his appointment.


Jacques Bureau: May I ask what particular duties he is performing under the law as it stands now, because after all the Civil Service Bill has not yet been assented to and has not yet the force of law. He must be holding some position beyond that of private secretary, because he is described as a clerk in the first division subdivision B. Such being the case, may I ask, what work does he perform?


Newton Wesley Rowell: He performs work as my private secretary.


Jacques Bureau: The practice hitherto
has been that when a private secretary has been taken on he received an official position in the department. When the minister for whom he acted went out the private secretary reverted to that position and dropped the secretarial salary of $600 allowed to him. In this case I see that the private secretary is also a clerk in the First Division, Subdivision B although there is no work for him in the department. He was apparently appointed as private secretary to the minister and has nothing else to do; his services were not required until the minister entered the Cabinet and then only as private secretary. There is also a vote in the Estimates of $600 which brings this gentleman's salary up to $3,400. I cannot understand how that can be. If we were under the new regime as far as the appointment of private secretary is concerned I would say well and good, but the fact of putting an additional man in a certain grade, who is only required to act as private secretary to the minister, with the privilege of occupying the same clerkship after the minister retires or ceases to enjoy a seat in the 'Cabinet, when no need exists for such clerkship is not right and ought not to be entertained. I can quite understand under the old law appointing a man when a vacancy occurred to which he could

revert when the minister withdrew from the Cabinet, but I cannot understand creating a position for one for whose services there is no need except as private secretary.


Newton Wesley Rowell: Let me say to my hon.
friend that my private secretary takes the place of the Prime Minister's secretary who was in the Privy Council previously hut who now goes to another department.


Jacques Bureau: Where does he go?


Newton Wesley Rowell: The Prime Minister's
secretary goes to the Department of State for External Affairs.


Mr. ARCIHAMBAULT:: I understand the
private secretary was appointed by Order in Council?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Yes.


Ernest Lapointe: The minister says
that this gentleman is to act as private secretary. I suppose we may assume that hie duties are in connection with the business of the department?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Quite so.


Ernest Lapointe: He is paid a salary to act as private secretary to the minister but in connection with that hon. gentleman's public business?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Wholly in connection
with his publio business.


Ernest Lapointe: So it would not be part of the gentleman's work to write political literature for the Toronto Globe and other newspapers, as rumour has it he does.


Newton Wesley Rowell: That is no part of his
duties'.


Ernest Lapointe: And he is not paid a salary for that purpose?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Nothing whatever.


Ernest Lapointe: I must admit that I have read very well-written articles in the Globe under the signature of " Donald [DOT]Hunt '' and I was told that Donald Hunt was in reality the private secretary of my hon. friend. I do not know whether the report is true, perhaps the hon. gentleman can tell us as to that. I may add that the articles are very eulogistic of the hon. minister; he would blush if I were to read them to the committee to-night.


Georges Henri Boivin: Shall the item carry?


Jacques Bureau: No, we want an explanation from the minister. A question has
been asked whether the private secretary to the minister is the man who writes under the pseudonym of " Donald Hunt."


Newton Wesley Rowell: I cannot furnish any information as to what my private secretary does out of office hours. He is responsible to me for the work he does in office hours. They are very lengthy hours and1 he serves very faithfully during that time. I make no inquiry as to his work outside of those hours.


Jacques Bureau: That is a very nice way of shifting the question and I have been told that the hon. gentleman was rather shifty when he- was cornered. The question is a very plain one:	is " Donald
Hunt " the man who is now .secretary to the President of the Privy 'Council? That is a direct question, but I must put the question directly because I see the witness does not want to answer very readily. The committee will pardon me if the question is rather suggestive in its form.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried. .


Jacques Bureau: No it is not carried.


Newton Wesley Rowell: I can answer my hon. friend that I am not considering, nor is my department, who are the correspondents of papers throughout the country, or who the writers for those papers are and the names under which they write, I do not think it is pertinent to the particular matter under consideration.


Jacques Bureau: I think the question is pertinent and that the hon. minister is not answering it. I think we are entitled to more courtesy than the minister has vouchsafed. The question is plain and direct enough and we ought to know, when we are paying the minister's private secretary $3,400 whether he is the man who writes in the Globe or any other newspaper. The minister can answer: "I do not know whether he is the same man or not." I do not ask the hon. gentleman if he is concerned in the matter, but I ask him if his private secretary is the same man. If so, I think we have something to say about it no matter whether this gentleman writes outside of his office hours or during his office hours. I think if there is solidarity amongst the members of the Government, there is also solidarity between the minister and his private secretary. The private secretary is so close to the minister that he knows exactly what is going on. The private secretary is inspired by the minister and anything that goes out


Newton Wesley Rowell: Let me say first in reply to my hon. friend that I have never, directly or indirectly, inspired any .article that has- .appeared under the name of "Donald Hunt" or any other, with reference to the work of my department or any branch of work. I have not the least objection, if the Chairman thinks that the matter is- relevant to the item under consideration, to answer my hon. friend's question. I can say this.; so far as my secretary is concerned, never to my knowledge has he written any articles during office hours, and I know he keeps, very long office hours, often until midnight, in connection with the work of my department, the public work of the Government.


Jacques Bureau: 
Newton Wesley Rowell: If the Chairman thinks it is a proper question, I shall be very glad to answer it.


Jacques Bureau: What is that?


Georges Henri Boivin: The hon. minister has asked for my ruling. It is this: In voting a salary to a Government official, any member of-the House certainly has a right to ascertain what are the duties performed by that Government official. On the other hand, I do think that every hon. member of the House should accept the answer given by the minister. I understood the minister to say that he did not know what the secretary did outside of office hours, but that he had not written these articles during office hours. That answer should be considered satisfactory.


Jacques Bureau: Do you hold that when a member puts a question he is entitled to an answer?


Georges Henri Boivin: He is entitled to such answer as any member of the Government may give.


Jacques Bureau: Therefore, a member of the Opposition must stand here and be at the mercy or whim or caprice of the gentlemen who sit on the other side and have the .administration in hand. Now, I have asked the President of the Council-I will change my question. I have asked him if he knows whether this man who writes' under the name of " Donald Hunt" is the same man who is the private secretary to the hon. minister. I will ask him what is the real name of his private secretary.


Newton Wesley Rowell: My private secretary's name is Mr. Main Johnson.


Jacques Bureau: Main Johnson. Has Mr. Main Johnson written in the Globe, to the knowledge of the hon. gentleman?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order, order.


Jacques Bureau: Why "Order"? I am putting a new question. The Chairman has ruled that I am entitled to an answer when I put a question. Does the hon. gentleman know that Mr. Main Johnson writes in the Globe under the name of " Donald Hunt"? If he knows it, or if he does not know it, why not say so?


Newton Wesley Rowell: I understood from the Chairman's Tuling that my answer already covered the question.


Jacques Bureau: This is a new question.


Newton Wesley Rowell: Then I should say that it is a question for the Chairman to rule whether or not it is pertinent to these matters. It is for the Chairman to say.


Mr.   McM ASTER@: I think that the question proposed by the hon. member for Three Rivers is a proper question, and I would suggest this: Suppose the gentleman in question, instead of writing from time to time, was turning out a series of popular novels, would it not be pertinent for this House to inquire whether it was compatible with the duty of the private secretary of a cabinet minister to spend his time also in literary effort? I think that would be a proper question. The difference between the question asked by the hon. member for Three Rivers and the 'hypothetical question put by me-is merely a question of degree. And I would humibly submit that we would like the' President of the Council, if his secretary, Mr. Main Johnson, is also this Mr. Donald Hunt, to state so frankly, and then it will be for us, if we think that there is any public interest prejudicially affected by the literary activities of Mr. Donald Hunt or Mr. Johnson to ask any other question. But before we proceed along this line it does appear to me that we are entitled to have a frank answer from the minister as to whether this literary character, " Donald Hunt," is the same gentleman who is in private life his most amiable secretary, Mr. Main Johnson.


Georges Henri Boivin: Does any other hon. gentleman wish to say anything on the point of order?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: What is the point of order?


Georges Henri Boivin: I have been asked vhether the question just put by the hon.
member for Trois Rivieres (Mr. Bureau) is a proper question. I have heard the hon. member for Brome (Mr. MeMaster). Is there any other hon. gentleman desiring to say anything on the point of order?


Mr. G. B. NICHOLSON:: I submit that it is none of the hon. minister's business what his private secretary does when he is not employed by the Government. He has the same right to employ his leisure time in the way he chooses, as the private seoretary of either the member for Brome or the member for Three Rivers would have. Because the private secretary of the President of the Council is employed by the Government is no reason why he is to become a serf, and must spend his leisure time in the way some member may dictate.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The hon. member for East Algorna has just said that the secretary of the President of the Council is no more responsible to this House than the private secretary to the hon. member for Brome. That cannot be taken seriously, and it is not correct. A private servant is not in any way whatsoever responsible to this House, and that would he the position of the private secretary of the hon. member for Brome. The private secretary of the President of the Council is not only the servant of that minister, but he is the servant of this House and of the Canadian people. The Canadian people are paying him. The minister himself is a public servant, and those who wait upon him in connection with the duties of his office are public servants. It is the right of every man in Canada who helps to pay the salary of a public servant to know everything about him, what he does, what he publishes. If he publishes something that we consider to be prejudicial to the interests of Canada, we have a right to know about it and to bring him to account for it. The head of any department should not stand as a shield between any officer of the department and the public. The President of the Council must answer all questions put to him with regard to his own office; he must also answer on behalf of any public servants in his employ. In a word, we have a right to know everything about the services of any man who is in the service of the country.


Charles Sheard: It appears to me that the situation is this:	the gentleman in question is employed as secretary to the President of the Council, to do certain work at certain hours an'd to the satisfaction of the minister. For that he is paid a salary out

of the public funds and for that he is accountable to the President of the Council as a minister of the Crown, and to this House. We are at liberty to question his actions in his office as much as we desire, but we do not own him body and soul. Gentlemen opposite are trying -to make a little political capital by asserting that some officials in the public service occasionally contribute to the public press, and that this gentleman is one. I am not familiar with his articles or with the trend of his writing, but I say this: as a broad principle, if we are to have first-class men in the public service, we as members' of Parliament must not act as Paul Prys in connection with the private lives of such gentlemen. We have to extend to them' broad liberties. We have to permit them to express their opinions in the public press in a free and unbiased manner. Unless we can show that they have used facts with which they have become. familiar in the discharge of their public service, we have no right whatever to raise a question as to what they do after office hours, what they write, for whom they write, how they write, or to what journals they contribute. I agree with the view expressed by the member for Algoma East {Mr. Nicholson) that it is simply not our business. It is not the business of this House to inquire into the private actions, even in connection with newspapers, of public servants. It is beneath the dignity of this House to make these investigations with the view, apparently, to attacking the President of the Council in respect of some newspaper clippings that hon. gentlemen have secured from the Toronto 'Globe or some other source. Let us get on with the business of the House and not waste time with the discussion of these trivialities.


John Howard Sinclair: I disagree with my hon. friend (Mr. Sheard).' The party that he follows took a very different -view only a few years ago regarding the duties of public officials. Some 25,000 men were dismissed in Canada for partisanship- turned out of office simply because they said two or three 'words in favour of the Liberal party.


Charles Sheard: Are the articles complained of partisan articles? Is this a case of partisanship? So far as I know, that has not been shown.


John Howard Sinclair: My hon. friend said that it made no difference what a public official did after hours; that he 
could do as he pleased. That is a new doctrine on the other side of the House.


Mr. BUTTS:: May I ask the hon. gentle-man a question?
The 'CHAIRMAN:	The member for
Antigonish and Guystoorough (Mr. Sinclair) has the floor and is entitled to retain it unless he himself gives the member for South Cape Breton (Mr. Butts) permission to interrupt him by putting a question.


Robert Hamilton Butts: Will the member for Antigonish allow me to ask him a question?


John Howard Sinclair: Certainly.


Robert Hamilton Butts: ' These 25,000 officials were dismissed by Blomfield Douglas under the Laurier Government-


Georges Henri Boivin: Order. The hon.
member must not take advantage of the rules by rising to ask a question and then making a statement.


Robert Hamilton Butts: I beg your pardon, Mr. Chairman-


Georges Henri Boivin: Order.
Mt. J. H. .SINCLAIR: I was pointing out to my hon. friend (Mr. Sheard) that the doctrine that he expounded has not been accepted by the party which he now supports. On the contrary, they accept a very different doctrine; that a public official must not take part in politics; that he must not be a partisan, and that if be breaks that rule he is subject to dismissal. If that applies to ordinary officials of the Government, why should it not apply to a private secretary? If a private secretary chooses to write political articles. After hours and to take a partisan position concerning any political matter, it is open to members of the House to question his right to do so. Gentlemen on the other side must agree with this-or else the Government have entirely changed their views with regard to the matter. I repeat that that doctrine has been laid down toy the Government; that it has been held toy them; that some have suffered under it. Has this doctrine now been abolished? Has a public official now no responsibility except during office hours? If the President of the Council says that an official of the Government has the right, after office hours, to engage in any partisan activity that he wishes to engage in, of course that is a different matter; but that is not the view that has been held hitherto.
Sir 'SAM HUGHES:	Years ago it was
discovered that the managing editor of the Toronto Globe was receiving half his pay-


Georges Henri Boivin: The discussion is now confined to the point of order.


Samuel Hughes: I was going to draw a parallel between this- case and that one. It was regarded as all right then for the-


Georges Henri Boivin: I do not think that would* be quite in, order. The hon. member may discuss the question after the point of order has been decided. The President of the Council was asked by the member for Trois Rivieres if his private secretary had written, certain articles in the Toronto Globe under a certain "nom de plume." The hon. minister replied that no articles had been written during office hours. The question was repeated covering generally the entire time of the said private secretary, both during and after office hours. The President of the Council required a ruling concerning the propriety of the question. I invited hon. members on both sides* for their opinions and advice upon the point of order, and they have given very much assistance to the Chair.
The hon. member (Mr. McKenzie) who is Teading the Opposition, gave it as his opinion that it was the right of any member c*f this House to probe the conduct of any official both in office hours and outside of office hours if that official did or published anything prejudicial to the interests of Canada. I took down the words at the time. The hon. gentleman went on to say that in that event it would be perfectly competent for the House to know exactly where and when such articles were written. The question of political partisanship was also introduced in the point of order. My opinion is that the conduct of any employee of the Government, in so far as his conduct outside of office hours is concerned, cannot be inquired into by a member of this House, unless, to use the words of the hon. member for iCape Breton, that employee is alleged to have done or published something prejudicial to the public interest. If that be the case, it is competent for the House to get all the details. I, therefore, rule that if the articles complained of are prejudicial to the public interest, the hon. member for Three Rivers (Mr. Bureau) is in order. If the articles are prejudicial to the public interest the hon. member for Three Rivers should read the articles, and then ask the minister if they were written by his private secretary. Otherwise, all remarks and questions concerning the conduct of a servant of the State must be restricted *to his official conduct.


Jacques Bureau: I bow, Sir, to your ruling, and I shall not take exception to it because
I do not intend to appeal. But I have another question to ask the minister. Perhaps this will throw some light on the situation. I see on page 12 of the Estimates, under second division, subdivision B, a total amount of $3,125 for 1917-18, and for 1918-19, $6,100, or almost double. Will the minister please explain the reason for that?


Samuel Hughes: You told me, Sir, I might ask my question after the* point of order was settled. Might I ask this question? Your decision practically resolves itself into this, that the Parliament of Canada may pay part of the *salary of writers for the Toronto Globe. A number of years ago it was proved before the people of Canada that the editor in chief of the Toronto Globe was receiving one-half of his salary from the Peace Society of the United States which was found afterwards to b'e supported from German sources, and the other half from the Toronto Globe. I do not know whether it is now the custom of the 'Toronto Globe to have part of the salaries of its writers paid by the Government, as were formerly paid by the* pro-German United States peace societies, but whatever the facts are, we should know them.


Newton Wesley Rowell: The hon. member for
Three Rivers asked about the item being $6,100 this year as compared with $3,125 last year. The difference is this. There were two clerks in the Third Division, Subdivision A, last year, and the hon. member will notice there are none this year. The change means that those two clerks have been transferred to the other division. The clerks transferred are Mr. Miller and Mr. Olivier, who have been in the department for a very long time, and it is proposed that they be transferred from the Third to the Second Division.


Joseph Archambault: On page 595 of
the unrevised Hansard appears the following question which I put to the minister:
Is Mr. Main Johnson employed in the Privy Council office or in some other Government department?
The answer was:
Yes. In the Privy Council as Private Secretary to the President of the Privy Council.
My second question was:	.
If so, was he appointed by the Civil Service Commission after competitive examination?

The answer was:
Is a graduate of University of Toronto and his appointment was made in accordance with the Civil Service Act.
There was laid on the table of the House to-day a copy of an Order in Council reading thus:
21st December, 1917.
The Board recommend that under the provisions of the War Measures Act, 1914, Mr. Main Johnson be employed as a temporary clerk In the Privy Council Office as Private Secretary to the Hon. the President of the Privy Council for a period of one year from the 12th of October, 1917, with salary at the rate of $2,800 per annum, chargeable to the War Appropriation.


Ernest Lapointe: God save the King.


Joseph Archambault: There was another Order in Council:
The Board recommend that Mr. Main Johnson, private secretary to the Honourable the President of the Privy Council be, from the 12th of October, 1917, paid an additional allowance of $600 per annum for his services as such private secretary.
I would like to be enlightened on the subject, as the statement of the President of the Privy Council appears contradictcry to the Order in Council which I have just read.


Newton Wesley Rowell: The Order in/ Council which my hon. friend has just read is the order under which Mr. Johnson was appointed as my private secretary, but the Civil Service Act to which my hon. friend has referred makes provision for such appointment. My hon. friend will
9 p.m. have in the answer to his question the reference to the section in the Civil Service Act. The form of the order is prepared by the Clerk of the Privy Council (Mr. Boudreau), who has charge of such matters, and it has been put through in the form he suggested.


Ernest Lapointe: Will my hon. friend explain by what process of logic or reasoning he can join together the War Measures Act and the appointment of his private secretary?


Newton Wesley Rowell: I suppose the same reasoning as applies to the private secretaries of the other new members of the Union Government would apply to mine. The formation of the Union Government was a war measure, and in the necessary provision for the organization of the Union Government, and for the appointment of the secretaries it was proper to use the powers given by the War Measures Act.


Mr.   McM ASTER@: I understood your ruling, Sir, to be that if it were shown that the articles written by " Donald Hunt," who, I presume, is admitted to be the same gentleman as Mr. Main Johnson, were prejudicial to the public interest, they would be a proper subject of inquiry by this committee. A similar matter has already come up in the British House of Commons. A member of that House, Mr. J. W. Pratt, had occupied a subordinate position-


Georges Henri Boivin: If the hon. member wishes to discuss the ruling given by the Chair he is not in order. He can only appeal from the ruling; he cannot discuss it.


Mr.   McM ASTER@: I am not appealing from the ruling of the Chair; I am not discussing it; I am conforming with the ruling of the Chair. I wish to show that by British precedent, which should always be listened to in this House, articles such as this young gentleman has written are regarded in the Mother of Parliaments as prejudicial to the public interest, and this is the instance I wish to put before the committee. A certain Mr. J. W. Pratt was a member of the British House of Commons. He was also a Liberal Whip. He was a henchman and a strong party follower of Mr. Lloyd George, and he occupied part of his time in writing to the Liberal papers of Scotland letters in which Mr. As/quith was decried and Mr. Lloyd George was greatly eulogized. The matter came before the British House, where it was decided that it was an improper thing for a member of Parliament to write such letters. Now if it was an improper thing for a member of Parliament to write such letters it is a fortiori and in a greater degree, a more improper thing for the private secretary of a minister to write letters to the papers eulogizing that minister. I say that is a proper subject for inquiry by this Committee under the ruling which you, Mr. Chairman, have just given.


Jacques Bureau: We are entitled to know what this gentleman does during his office hours anyway. I see by the Order in Council that this man is paid out of the War Fund, and I ask what special duties he performs for the President of the Council which have special reference to the war, outside, of course, of the great help the presence of the hon. gentleman, as President of the Privy Council, gives to the cause of winning the war by scaring the Kaiser. Is he paid out of the War Appropriation Fund for writing these articles, and will he cease writing them or did he cease writing them on the 1st of April, the date

on which the money we are asked to vote begins to apply? From that date will his war functions cease, and he become just a civil servant as private secretary to the President of the Council? We voted $500,000,000 for the War Appropriation Fund, out of which this man's salary was taken, and we are entitled to know just what special work he has performed in connection with the war, and how long he has performed it.


Newton Wesley Rowell: The salary paid to my secretary up to the first of April of the present year will be paid out of last year's War Appropriation, the payment being under the War Measures Act. The salary which will be paid during the coming year will be paid under this vote, the same as the salary of any other civil servant occupying a corresponding position.


Jacques Bureau: That does not answer my question. If he was paid out of the War Appropriation he must have 'been performing some duties in connection with the war. The minister surely is not going to lay down the principle that anything at all can be charged up to the War Appropriation Fund, whether it has reference to the war or not. I do not think that is a proper principle; there are grave abjections to it. I repeat my question: What special duties was he performing in Connection with the war, to be paid out of the War Appropriation Fund?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Up to April 1 of the
present year he was performing the regular duties of private secretary to the President of the Privy Council. The matters dealt with by him are largely incidental to and out of the war. The bulk of my correspondence deal's with war matters, but I frankly say that my secretary should now be paid out of the regular appropriation of this House and that is the reason his name appears in the estimates. He is in exactly the same position as the other private secretaries who, following the formation of the Union Government, were paid out of the war appropriation, as that was the only fund available and it was the proper fund at the time the Union Government was formed.


Samuel Hughes: Some time ago the President of the Privy Council notified the House that he was sending out some weekly bulletins to assist clergymen in their afternoon sermons in the rural districts. Probably this young gentleman is engaged in furnishing that data.	-


Newton Wesley Rowell: No, my private secretary is kept busy with the work of the office, and has not time to aid in the work that interests my hon. friend so much.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I had always understood that when the Estimates were under discussion the head of the department whose estimates were being considered took the opportunity to give full information to the House in regard to the work of his department. Apparently the President of the Privy Council takes the opposite course, and feels it his duty to withhold information from the House.


Newton Wesley Rowell: I think I must challenge that remark. On any matter connected with the Privy Council office on which my hon. friend desires information I shall be pleased to give it in the fullest possible way, and if any information is asked for that I have not here I shall be glad to get it.


Arthur Bliss Copp: My hon. friend may be willing to give the fullest possible information, but certainly he has not done so. Instead of showing a willingness to give information, he has shown a willingness to withhold it.	[DOT]


Georges Henri Boivin: I do not think it is quite proper for the hon. member to impute motives to another hon. member.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I was stating the fact that he had not shown a willingness to give information. The minister has said that the Union Government was formed as a war measure, and that that accounted for the Order in Council under which his private secretary was appointed and paid his salary. If it was correct for the minister to pay his private secretary as a war measure up to 1st April, he has given no sufficient reason' why he should not continue to pay him as a war measure. Is it right and proper for every member of the Government to pay his secretary and staff under the War Measures Act? If it was right then, it must be right now. Then, why ask for this vote?


Jacques Bureau: We are asked to vote $44,000, and for the first time in my experience in this House we are refused information by a minister of the Crown, who hedges himself around with the rules of the House and the protection of the chairman in order not to answer pertinent questions relating to his department. Since the beginning of the session the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Carvell) has been asked question after question, has been cross-



examined and re-examined, and has always answered willingly. He had nothing to hide, and not only answered all questions that were asked, but volunteered to give further information. He said he was there to show what his department had done, and he was quite willing and glad to do it. The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Crerar), the Minister of Labour (Mr. Crothers), and every other minister has shown the same willingness. So why should the President of the Privy Council shroud himself in silence which our questions cannot, penetrate? Is he ashamed of what is done in his department? Is he afraid to acknowledge the truth? Or what is the reason? This is the first time in-eighteen years that I have seen the House get behind the minister, -,s my hon. friend from Toronto did, who says that this is a disgrace and that we ought to go, on with something else. If there is any disgrace in this matter it is not upon our side, but it is that a minister of the Crown should hide behind the rules of the House to avoid answering a plain and courteous question. I say no minister of the Crown has a right to ask us to vote $44,000 and then dismiss our questions in a half-contemptuous manner by saying, "Oh, ask the chairman." If I ask questions about the minister's private secretary, it is because that official has been writing in the newspapers. The minister by his silence acquiesces in the statement that his private secretary was writing to the newspapers to boost him.
Are civil servants outside of office hours to be allowed to do anything they want to? We have, by his silent acquiescence, the admission of the minister that his private secretary, Main Johnson, is the Donald Hunt who is writing in the papers puffing my hon. friend. I am not willing to pass this item without registering my protest against such conduct.


Mr. JACOBS:: I would like to know from the President of the Privy Council what the salary of Mr. Main Johnson is? I see an item in the Main Estimates:
Allowance for private secretary, $600.
*Surely that is not all the salary that Mr. Johnson receives? We would like to know what hie salary is,


Mr.   HOWELL@: If my hon. friend had
been in the House -a little earlier he would have heard the answer that I gave. In the Supplementary Estimates there is a vote for the private secretary's salary, omitted from the Main Estimates by mistake, of 
$2,800 and there is in the Main Estimates an allowance of $600, making $3,400 in all.


Samuel William Jacobs: I would like to know how this salary compares with the salaries of other private secretaries. Is it smaller or larger than the salaries of other secretaries?


Newton Wesley Rowell: I do not know how it
compares with the salaries of other-s but it is less than he was getting before he came here.


Samuel William Jacobs: Every one has to sacrifice something during the war.


Newton Wesley Rowell: Quite so.


Samuel William Jacobs: Do I understand the minister to say that there are salaries larger than $3,400 per anflum paid to the private secretaries of Cabinet ministers? In what departments do the private secretaries receive more than $3,400 per annum?


Newton Wesley Rowell: I do not know but my
impression was that the Prime Minister's secretary got more than that and that the private secretaries of some other ministers got the same. I have not inquired as to what other minister's secretaries are getting.


Samuel William Jacobs: I understand this is the first year Mr. Johnson has been employed as private secretary to a Cabinet minister. Does the minister consider that he should receive such a large salary the first year of his employment?


Newton Wesley Rowell: His work fully justifies the salary he is getting and he got more before he came here. The salary he is getting now is less than he was getting before and I consider that in the public interest his work as secretary of the President of the Privy Council is worth the payment that he is getting.


Samuel Hughes: I am not conversant with the details of this writing in the Globe, but any one who takes up the papers can see that there is a puffery bureau somewhere in connection with certain gentlemen in this Government. I do not mean to say that it is a puffery bureau pnly because you can see at a glance that it is a knocking bureau as well. I would like to know if these articles are censored by the minister before they go out and if only those are allowed to go out that are puffing up the President of the Privy Council and certain other favoured ministers and gentlemen, the Chairman of the Imperial Munitions Board, for instance, and knocking certain other gentlemen.


Newton Wesley Rowell: I have never seen any such articles.


Samuel William Jacobs: I am interested in the literary efforts of Mr. Main Johnson; in fact, we in the House all enjoy them and we should be the last people to complain of them. I always look forward to reading Mr. Johnson's prose-also his poetry. It has been the custom to give employment to literary men in the public departments of the Government. We know that in England Anthony Trollope, the great novelist, was employed in the Post Office Department. Edmund Yates was 'also in the public service in England. The late Archibald Lampman was employed in one of the departments here as a civil servant. William Wilfrid Campbell and a number of others similarly occupied positions in the public service. I might point out that the English ' gentlemen to whom I have referred were noted novelists and when we read their fiction we know that it was written with no ulterior purpose. Their works were merely imaginative, whereas the secretary of the minister, I understand, assumes to publish articles as if' they were actually truthful, and that is the difference between the English novelist and this Canadian writer.


Ernest Lapointe: I do not object to giving a preference to literary men in the Civil Service, as my hon. friend from George Etienne Cartier (Mr. Jacobs) suggests, but I do not think the War Measures Act should be used in that way. The hon. gentleman says that Mr. Johnson has been appointed as his private secretary. It is not only as private secretary, but he has been appointed to the Civil Service at a very large salary, and that under the War Measures Act, I believe that if the services of the gentleman were necessary to the minister for the winning of the war he ought to be paid under the War Appropriations vote and not placed over the heads of other good and faithful servants who have worked all their lives in the Privy Council office and who see this gentleman coming from Toronto and getting a large salary when their promotion is postponed because of his entry into the service. I do not think this is fair. There are many other things which have been done under the War Measures Act. My hon. friend says that Union Government is a product of the War Measures Act. Many other things are products of the War Measures Act. We all hope that peace will be restored. Then, these things will disappear, but because of the manner
144i
in which Mr. Johnson has been appointed to the Civil Service, while the war will be over, while there will be peace in the world, Mr. Main Johnson, although a product of the war, will sti'll be retained in the Civil Service and will be paid a large salary when other faithful civil servants are not getting the promotion they deserve. Certainly I think this way of using the War Measures Act, using the legislation which this Parliament enacted to promote war work, is open to strong criticism. I believe Mr. Johnson should be paid under the War Appropriation Act and not under the Civil Service Act.


James Alexander Robb: Just after eight o'clock tonight a member of the Government came over to this side and suggested to us that we might get the business through fairly early and that certain resolutions would be put through so as to enable members of the Government, who wished to go, to absent themselves from the House. The President of the Privy Council has set an example of hurrying on the work by raising points of order. I would tell the minister in all frankness that he would make considerably more progress with his Estimates if he followed the example of those other members of the Government who have preceded him with their Estimates. I think the record shows that we on this side have not been unreasonable, but we are entitled to fair treatment and when a fair question is asked we are entitled to an answer.
The minister himself has acknowledged that part of his staff is paid from the War Appropriation Fund, and that raises another question. I understand that the publicity campaign throughout the country is under the charge of the President of the Privy Council. I would like to know in this connection how much money was paid for advertising the famous Order in Council, exempting farmers' sons from military service, just prior to the last general election. We are told that that Order was put through about 3rd December last and that, under the direction of the President of the Privy Council, a considerable sum of money, running from $7,000 hr $10,000, was spent. And we would like to know the exact amount so spent. The minister himself has introduced this question, and if we cannot get satisfactory information we will probe it to the bottom if it takes all night.


Newton Wesley Rowell: Might I say to my hon. friend that I have not refused to give information on any matter connected with the administration of my department. 1

shall be delighted to afford the committee the fullest possible information, at my disposal in connection with the whole of the work of that department, and if 1 have not got it here I will try and obtain it. With reference to what my hon. friend mentions, the matter came up when the War Appropriation was before the House. I speak subject to correction, because matters arose while I was away during the election campaign, but my recollection is that it was not the Order in Council to which he refers that was advertised,, 'but the judgment of Mr. Justice Duff on a test case, granting exemptions to farmers under certain conditions.


James Alexander Robb: The minister .admits there was. such an Order in Council?


Newton Wesley Rowell: 
Newton Wesley Rowell: No, it is not part of his duties, and he has never received any such instructions.


Samuel William Jacobs: Does the President of the Privy Council require two private secretaries to do hie work?	.


Newton Wesley Rowell: Yes. He has a secretary and an assistant secretary,. and it requires all their time to answer the correspondence that comes in, as well as to perform the necessary routine work of the office.


Samuel William Jacobs: A double shift.


Joseph Archambault: Was the assistant secretary appointed by Order in Council under the War Measures Act?


Newton Wesley Rowell: For the time being I
do not recall the form of procedure followed in connection with the appointment. I know it was made through the Civil Service Commission, and it went through the Treasury Board in the regular way, but

I do not recall the details. It is the Clerk of the Privy Council, Mr. Boudreau, who looks after these matters, and it went through in the regular way.


Mr. PELLETIER:: If 'both the minister's secretaries are employed all the time in the work of the department, how do they enjoy the opportunity to write articles and poetry for the Toronto Globe?


Newton Wesley Rowell: I think my hon. friend
could not have been listening when I told the eommittee early in the evening that no articles were written by my secretaries, or either of them, to my knowledge, during office hours for any paper.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Do they write after office hours?


François Jean Pelletier: The minister said a
few minutes ago that his secretaries were . kept busy from the time they went into the office until two or three o'clock the next morning.


Newton Wesley Rowell: No, I did not say that.


François Jean Pelletier: What time do they
have to write articles and poetry?


Jacques Bureau: May I ask what is the . total amount required to be voted by this resolution? There is a vote of $54,900 and at the bottom of the page I see "printing and stationery, and sundries
Sir ISAM HUGHEiS:	[Does it 'include
the salary of Mr. Nichols?


Newton Wesley Rowell: No, that was included
in the War Appropriation that was voted the other day.


Samuel Hughes: That has slipped
through, has it?


Jacques Bureau: I want to know what "the sundries" are. There are so many things that come under that head just now that we would be interested in learning what they are.


Newton Wesley Rowell: The sundries are the same as last year, and for the same purposes.


Jacques Bureau: I do not think we inquired about them last year. Anyhow, the conditions are not the same this year, and we want to know the details.


Newton Wesley Rowell: I do not think I can give my hon. friend the details now, but I shall be glad to furnish them when we take up the Supplementary Estimates. There is another item dealing with printing, stationery and all such supplies as are necessary for the carrying on of an office

such as the Privy Council Office. The money is spent under the direction of the Clerk of the Privy Council.


Joseph Archambault: I would like to know if the private secretaries of the other ministers are appointed by Order in Council, or if it only happens in the case of the secretary of'the President of the Privy Council.	[DOT]


Newton Wesley Rowell: So far as I know the private secretaries of all the new ministers were appointed in that way. I know some of them were.


Joseph Archambault: Then they did not have to pass a competitive examination under the Civil Service Commission?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Under the terms of the Civil Service Act private secretaries are not compelled to pass a competitive examination before the Civil Service Commission.


Jacques Bureau: I asked the minister to give me an explanation of the $7,000 for sundries. His answer was-and I took it down so that there would be no misunderstanding,-that it was for printing and stationery and other expenses of the office which is under the control of the Clerk of the Privy Council. Now I ask him, in that case, why is there an item of $3,000 for printing and stationery?


Newton Wesley Rowell: I was referring generally to the item of $10,000 for contingencies. The sum of $3,000 is expressly for printing and stationery. My hon. friend is quite correct in his statement, and the sum of $7,000 'forms the balance of $10,000 for contingencies. All I can say is that it covers the usual expenses in carrying on an office of that kind. However, I shall get the details from the Clerk of the Privy Council and will give them when we take up the Supplementary Estimates.
Royal Northwest Mounted Police-salaries, $22,300 ; contingencies, $1,700.


Mr. JOSEPH READ:: Does this item
include the salary of the controller, Mr. McLean?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Yes.


Jacques Bureau: What position does Mr. McLean occupy?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Deputy minister and controller.


Ernest Lapointe: Are any of the
mounted police. employed in connection with the Military Service Act?


Newton Wesley Rowell: There are some of the mounted police employed in that service in
Western Canada; some of them are assisting the Dominion police out there; and there are a few assisting the Dominion police, I think, in the province of Quebec.


Jacques Bureau: Is that so?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Some five or six. They are assisting in the West.


Jacques Bureau: Would the minister tell us the present strength of the force? I understand that in the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan many of the services heretofore rendered by the mounted police have ceased, on the ground and for the reason that provincial constables now perform the duties undertaken by the mounted police before the erection into provinces. Many of the men, I understand, have been released. How many now remain oni the force, and what are the special duties now performed by those remaining? Are they kept near the Indian reservations?


Newton Wesley Rowell: I am very glad to answer my hon. friend. Some time after the war broke out, in view of the importance of carefully guarding the international border against possible crossing by hostile parties inspired by pro-German propaganda, and also to look after conditions in the Northwest, an arrangement was made with the Provincial Governments of Saskatchewan and Alberta whereby each of these Governments took over the work of providing their own police protection, ini order that the mounted police might be released for this special and important work of patrolling the border and of keeping in touch with all elements of the population in Western .Canada. At the same time quite a number of the force enlisted for service overseas. The number of the force, until this recent movement for enlistment as cavalry to reinforce our cavalry brigade in France, was about six hundred. The authorized strength is something over a thousand. When the request came from the overseas authorities that we should provide cavalry reinforcements for our cavalry brigade which has been operating in France, and which did such magnificent service during the great .struggle com-; mencing in March, we communicated with the Commissioner of the Mounted Police, intimating to him that this request had come for cavalry reinforcements, and the suggestion was made that if the Mounted Police cared to enlist as reinforcements for the cavalry they might go overseas at once.


Samuel Hughes: As a body?


Mr.   HOWELL@: As cavalry reinforcements.


Samuel Hughes: They were not to be allowed to go as a unit?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Not as a unit. It was the desire of the Police and the desire of the Government that they should go over as a unit, but the Government was not able to arrange with the overseas authorities that they should go over and go to the front as a unit. The Government did succeed in arranging that one squadron would go as a unit.


Samuel Hughes: I may tell the hon. gentleman, what he probably .knows, that the Government has everything to do with sending them over as a unit, and to the front as a unit. All they want is backbone.


Newton Wesley Rowell: In that branch of the service the Minister of Militia is the one who determines, subject to the approval of the Council, what shall be done on this side, and the overseas military authorities decide what shall be done overseas. The request that came to us was for cavalry reinforcements for the existing brigade, the ranks of which had been seriously depleted in the great March offensive, and that is what was immediately required. We have succeeded, however, in getting the authorities to accept one squadron of cavalry composed of, men of the Northwest Mounted Police. The other men going over are going as cavalry reinforcements to reinforce the existing brigade in France.


Samuel Hughes: Is that why Colonel Perry resigned?


Newton Wesley Rowell: He resigned because they were not authorized to go over to the front as a unit. My hon. friend from Three Rivers (Mr. Bureau) asked the number of men in the force. We are transferring to the overseas draft 15 officers and 238 men. The Northwest Mounted Police has enlisted for cavalry recruits to go overseas 530 men, making a total of all ranks of 783 men who are now passing out of the hands of the Mounted Police to the military authorities to go overseas as cavalry reinforcements.
I am under the impression that they will pass through Ottawa, and I hope they will detrain here. If they should do so before the House prorogues hon. members will be glad to see so splendid a force as they will present. It is a fine tribute to the courage and patriotism of the men in that force that when the suggestion was made that they should enlist as cavalry recruits every ISir Sam Hughes.]	*
man in the force volunteered. Large numbers could not go because they were over age or otherwise not physically fit. That leaves on hand a force of 336 officers and men at the present time.


Joseph Archambault: May I inquire if the position of controller is a new position created this year, or .an old position?


Newton Wesley Rowell: It is an old position.


Joseph Archambault: Is there both a deputy minister and a controller?


Newton Wesley Rowell: That officer is the same man; he is deputy and controller.


Jacques Bureau: Does this vote of $22,300 include the salaries of the 336 men?


Newton Wesley Rowell: No. This is for Civil Government; this Is the salary list of the office here. We will come to the salaries of the Mounted Police in another item:


Jacques Bureau: Why should it take $22,300 for officials in Ottawa to direct 336 men who have their own officers? I know, Mr. Chairman, that the Mounted Police are very good men. There are no words of praise the minister can utter in favour of the Mounted Police that I do not at once endorse. I have had occasion to know them and meet them. It is on account of the high character of the force that it strikes me that having to pay, in addition to the salary of the minister who presides over them, $22,300 to look after 336 well trained, well disciplined, gentlemanly men, who are employed to enforce the laws of the country, is rather a large sum, especially when the officials are a couple of thousand miles away from the field of operations.
Mr. ROW'ELL: My hon. friend must bear in mind that this is the staff that has been looking after 1,200 men. We are down to 336 men at the present time simply because we. are sending overseas over 700 men.


Jacques Bureau: Yet in spite of this dwindling, I notice that the appropriation is increasing instead of decreasing.


Samuel Hughes: Does this item include recruiting charges?


Newton Wesley Rowell: This is simply the expense of the staff in Ottawa, and as I recollect the details the only differences are statutory increases to two or three clerks in the office.
Royal Northwest Mounted Police $1,127 -777.57.


Ernest Lapointe: How many members of the force are employed in connection with the Military Service Act?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Less than ten in the East,
I believe. I am not sure ol the number, because some have enlisted and are going overseas with the cavalry reinforcements. In the West I should think that the number is less than fifty, but it varies from time to time as circumstances require.


Ernest Lapointe: Are they paid any additional moneys on account of that service?	.


Newton Wesley Rowell: No.


Jacques Bureau: I notice that there is a decrease this year in the amount to defray the expenses of pay, subsistence, billeting, forage, etc. Is the decrease in proportion per capita to the decrease in the force?


Newton Wesley Rowell: The decrease is to some extent in proportion per capita. These estimates were made on the basis of approximately GOO men,-subject to this qualification; the cost of living has so vastly increased that the cost of maintaining the Mounted Police in the West is somewhat higher than it was last year. But the main difference between the estimates of last year and those of this year is the difference in the number of men.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I assume that when these estimates were prepared it was not known that so many men were going overseas. Was this estimate made to provide for a larger number of men than are now on the force?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Yes. If the number does not increase; we shall not require the whole of this money, and it will not be spent. We shall spend only such amount as is absolut-ely required for the force engaged. When this estimate was prepared we did not know about the men going overseas.
. Office of the Conservation Commission- salaries, $40,5'00.


Jacques Bureau: We have several commissions whose duties seem to be similar to those of the Conservation Commission. We have a commission on natural resources, we have another commission to inquire into such resources as ores, etc., which *might he manufactured into munitions. In fact, there is such a multiplicity of commissions that the ordinary public, if they want information, do not know which one .to apply to. The Conservation Commission may he looked upon as the mother of commissions, if we leave out of consideration the Railway Commission.. I suggest that the Government charge the Conservation Commission with the duty of studying the other
commissions and ascertaining whether some of them could not be dispensed with or merged with others. Most of the information, if we except some minute details, supplied by the commission mentioned yesterday could be obtained from the various departments of Government. I do not make these remarks by way of criticism;
I admit that the Government have had a good deal to do all at once. But now that we have Union Government-


Samuel Hughes: And Union Opposition.


Jacques Bureau: We have always had
a Union Liberal party, anyway. It is about time that we had a union of these commissions. We ought tO' take the Commission of Conservation as our guide; we ought to ask that commission to see that the information which we obtain through these commissions is not duplicated.


Joseph Read: Would not that be a combine in restraint of trade?
To provide for the expenses of the Conservation Commission, including $750 for C. Gordon Hewitt, as special adviser respecting conservation of game and wild life, $84,0'00.
Mr. DuTREMBLAY:	I should like to
have an answer from the minister regarding the question put by the hon. member for Three Rivers (Mr. Bureau).


Newton Wesley Rowell: I can only say that I
shall carry my hon. friend's suggestion with reference to the work of this commission to the Prime Minister. But this commission at present has its hands full of very valuable and important work. As my hon. friend knows, there are the various branches, with water-power, forestry lands, public health, housing and other problems -and the commission is fully occupied in looking after those branches of investigation.


Jacques Bureau: I am not criticising the
Commission of Conservation. I am in favour of it and I thought it ought to look after the others. I see that for the commission with all its staff, including Mr. White and Sir Clifford Sifton the amount of the item is only $40,500. The item, which we are now discussing, which is for the expenses of the Commission of Conservation amounts to $84,000. The commission must be doing a good deal of travelling, if it costs twice the amount we pay them for their services to pay their travelling expenses. 1 would like to have an explanation of the item.


Newton Wesley Rowell: The civil government
item includes the chief officials in the office of the Conservation Commission. The present item covers the expenses of the outside work, including the general office expenses, expenses of investigations into forestry, town planning and housing, water-powers, public health, fishery and game, agriculture, mining, and fire prevention,, and the travelling expenses of the commissioners.


Jacques Bureau: I would like to know if the first amount of $40,500 covers all the salaries of the employees of the Conservation Commission, or whether in the second item there are more employees included, or whether it is only for technical work and reports'. I understand it costs' money to publish the weekly and monthly pamphlets which we get and which are very interesting and useful. It is on account of the useful and great work of this commission that I think there is very little use for some of the other commissions which have been created.


Newton Wesley Rowell: This item of $84,000 covers what might be called the outside staff plus the expenses of investigation. The first item covers what may be described as the directing staff of the head office.


Samuel Hughes: Is the item of $40,500 included in the $84,000?


Newton Wesley Rowell: No,


Ernest Lapointe: Is the Conservation Commission under the control of the Privy Council in any way?


Newton Wesley Rowell: No, it is- under the Prime Minister. I >am talking these Estimates tonight at his request.


John Howard Sinclair: What are. the names
of the men who: compose the commission?


Newton Wesley Rowell: The commission consists of twenty members appointed by the Governor in 'Council, of whom one from each province must be a member of the faculty of a university within such province. There are a number of ex officio members, viz.: the minister of each Provincial 10 p.m. Government charged with the administration of the natural resources1 of the province, and the federal Ministers of the Interior, Agriculture and Mines. I cannot give the names of. the twenty appointed by the Governor in Council, but I can secure them for my hon. friend and give them to him if he so desires,
[IMr. Bureau.]


John Howard Sinclair: When do they meet?


Newton Wesley Rowell: They have an annual meeting, and they also have committee meetings.


John Howard Sinclair: They do not receive salaries?


Newton Wesley Rowell: No, they receive travelling expenses1 for attending the meetings,


Ernest Lapointe: Has the 'Chairman of the 'Commission of Conservation any control over the employees of that branch of the service, or is his position only honorary?


Newton Wesley Rowell: He is in control.


Ernest Lapointe: Who is the present chairman of the commission?


Newton Wesley Rowell: iSir Clifford Sifton.
Mr. E. 'LAPOINTE.; Is he using the personnel of the commission for his political activities? The other day I read, I think, in Saturday Night, that he was the father of the Union Government. I would like to know whether he uses in any way the personnel of the commission for his paternal or generating activities.
Mr. 'ROWEiLL: I have not heard it suggested that he has. I am sure that is not the case.
Mr. D'EOHENE: What salary does he receive?


Newton Wesley Rowell: None.
Mr. McKE'NZIE: Eighty-four thousand dollars is quite a sum of money. I would suggest to the minister that the details in the item are rather meagre. Who is the responsible head for this expenditure, and under whose control is the money disbursed?


Newton Wesley Rowell: The representative head is, of course, the chairman. Then there is the assistant to the chairman, Mr. James White, who directs in the absence of the chairman and who is subject to the chairman's direction. The item of $84,000 is made np as follows:
General office expenses, including salaries of temporary clerks and
travelling expenses	 $17,400
Forestry, including investigations into the pulpwood resources of Eastern Canada and publishing the forestry
reports	 10,650
Town planning and housing, including salaries, travelling expenses and publishing reports	 12,800
Water-powers, including salary consulting engineer, publishing reports, and office expenses	 12,600

Public health, including salary oif medical adviser, publishing	reports	....	5,000
Fisheries and Game, salaries and publishing reports	 2,600
Agriculture, including field and travelling expenses and publishing reports	 5,200
Mining, including salary of mining engineer, travelling expenses and publishing reports	 6,400
Fire prevention, including salary and travelling expenses and publishing
reports	 * *	5,800
Commissioners' expenses attending
annual and committee meetings	....	4,000
Miscellaneous reports	 1,650
Total	$84,000


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: To me it is a discovery that the Commission of Conservation has anything to do with hygienic conditions in the country, or with medical activities of any kind. There is, of course, a Board of Health in -connection with the Department of Agriculture that looks after health in a general way, and there are also organizations in the different provinces which look after general health conditions, "but I had thought that they rather exhausted every branch of medical research on the part of governments in this country. Perhaps it would be well for the minister to explain what is really done in this connection.


Newton Wesley Rowell: There has been a public health branch of the Conservation Commission for some considerable time, and Dr. Hodge-tts, who is now in England, has been medical advisor to that branch. I know from my general knowledge of the work of the commission that they have made important investigations into questions of public health as affecting the whole country, as part of the conservation of our human resources, and they have published some reports, I believe they have looked into the question of the effect of tuberculosis op the life of the nation, the housing of the people, and the relation of housing to public health. I believe it was a result of their investigations into questions of public health that the commission decided to look into the problem of housing and town planning and brought Mr. Thomas- Adams, the town planning expert, from Great Britain to take up that question in Canada. I may say in that connection that I once heard Right Hon. John Burns- say he thought the most acute problem in Canada was the housing of our working people, and a problem to which we should devote most earnest attention if we were not to repeat the mistakes of the old land and some mistakes the cities of the United States had . made. Town planning on sound lines, he said,
was one of the urgent needs of our country. The Commission of Conservation has taken up that problem and has attempted to deal with it through the branch of which Mr. Thomas Adams- is the chief. It is quite true, as my hon. friend has said, that there is a Public Health Branch in the Department of Agriculture, ibut it is pretty limited in its scope, and strong representations have been made to the Government from all classes of organizations urging that there should be a real Federal department of public health and the question is now under consideration, but so far no action has been taken.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: They cannot go too far in conserving public health and doing anything that is necessary along that line for the benefit of our people. What I would object to would be the possible overlapping and want of co-operation, with resulting inefficiency and waste of public money. Otherwise, I have no objection to the expenditure of public money for the benefit of public health, and particularly for the better housing of our people.
Supplementary estimates 1917-18 - Privy Council Office-contingencies, further amount required, $1,0'00.


Newton Wesley Rowell: This additional amount is required by reason of the fact that expenses in connection with the office of the secretary of Hon. Mr. Maclean and the secretary of the Hon. Mr. Robertson are charged to Privy Council contingencies. These ministers are not at the head of separate departments for which there are specific appropriations.


Mr.   McM ASTER@: Is this in -connection with the Post Office Department, -for example?


Newton Wesley Rowell: No. My hon. friend will remember that Hon. Mr. Maclean is chairman of the Committee oil Reconstruction, which is -a sub-committee of the Cabinet, and therefore the expenses incidental to the office of his secretary are charged under Privy Council Estimates and paid out of Privy Council contingencies.
Main estimates-Arts and Agriculture- Patent Record, $3'0,0KM).


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I might tell the minister we had this- item under fire last year. This money is expended in the publication of that big book that issues once in a while. It was stated by a great many hon. members in this House last year that they had very little use for the book, and I join that brigade myself. I have never got any good out of it, and unless- there is somebody

friendly to it I would suggest that $30,000 is too much, to pay for it. Perhaps the minister would explain why such a big volume is issued at such a great expense?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think there is some force in the criticism of my hon. friend. I have not so far got down to an examination of this particular expenditure, but it does seem to me that a reduction might possibly be made in it this year. I find that the cost of printing takes up practically the whole of this item, the distribution of the publication being free to members of Parliament and Senators, and to libraries in England, the United States and Canada. I would suggest that the item pass, and I will give it very careful consideration with a view to reduction before spending any money.
Kxperim intlil Fit. r rn s-Vlai lit Iniince of Central Farm, and establishment and maintaining- of additional branch stations, $1,012,036.60.


Ernest Lapointe: I would like information about .the station at Ste. Anne de la Pocatiere. Last year the director of the farm had to rent adjoining land for the purpose of carrying on the operations of the farm. Is it the intention of the department to acquire additional' land in order to make the operations of the farm successful?
Mr. 'CRERAR: I cannot say at the moment whether it is the intention to acquire additional land or not. We have found at several of the farms that it has been necessary to rent adjacent land mainly to secure feed for live stock that were 'being handled. There is -an item in the Estimates to provide for additional land, and if more land is necessary at this particular place it is likely that more will be purchased.


Mr. VIEN:: What is the reason of the increase in this vote?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The increase arises from practically three causes.- An item of $40,000 for printing was omitted from the Main Estimates of last year and was included in the Supplementary Estimates. This year it appears in the Main Estimates. In addition, there is an item of $75,000 which we are expending in the growing of garden and field root seeds at the several experimental farms. Prior to the war practically all the garden and field root seeds used in Canada, which amounted to !a very large quantity, were imported mainly from Belgium, Denmark and Holland. With the progress of the war the reserve supply has been cut off, and a year ago the 
director general of experimental farms, who had studied the situation, recommended that we should undertake in Canada to provide our own farms, as far as possible, with seed. It was difficult to get farmers throughout the country to undertake this work because they were not familiar with the methods of seed production and they lacked the necessary experience. It was decided to undertake this work at the experimental farms and (Stations throughout Canada. We have 350 acres under cultivation for this particular purpose and we hope to get enough seed1 to meet all our requirements next year. It is expected that the return from this will be greater than the expenditure involved when the proceeds from the sale of seed are realized.


Ernest Lapointe: Is it the intention of the minister to bring the employees of the experimental farms under the provisions of the <Civil Service Act? I am not speaking of the day labourer but of the director, the superintendents, the chiefs of the different branches and all permanent employees.
Mr. CR'ERAR:	I understand they will
be brought under the Civil Service Act.


Ernest Lapointe: Will the minister
carry out the policy which has been announced by other departments of the Government, that there shall he no political patronage in the appointment of the labourers on these farms? I would like to know if that will be done at St. Anne's because, if it is, it will be quite a new experience there.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I can assure the hon.
gentleman that this will be the policy of the department, and has been since last November when I personally gave instructions to the Director General of Experimental Farms that hereafter in the engagement of all men for work on the farms he should have regard strictly to the qualifications of the man for the position and not to any other consideration.


Mr.   McM ASTER@: Was that direction
given in writing or verbally in the manner in which the hon-. the Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Reid) gave directions?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It was given verbally,
but there was no misunderstanding as to the character of the instructions.


John Howard Sinclair: It would be necessary to make a, ruling and send it out to all the experimental farms in order

that it might reach the proper officers. I do not think a conversation with one man is sufficient. My hon. friend must remember that this question of political patronage has permeated the whole of the Administration for a long time and it cannot he expected that it will be changed by a simple conversation. There should he a ruling made by the minister and sent out to the experimental farms with instructions that it be posted up on the barn door, where any one can see it, soi that everybody will know that that is the rule.
Mr. CtRERAR:	I will be very glad to
do that if necessary. I gave the instruction to the Director General and he sent it out to all the superintendents of farms and farm stations, so he informed me, and I have no doubt he did so. I believe the superintendents of the various experimental farms will welcome the change and I have no doubt that policy will be carried out. If any hon. member has information that it is not being carried out I shall be very glad to have him inform me of the fact. As far as I am concerned. I want efficiency to govern the operation of the farms. I am going as far as in my power lies to see that this policy is carried out.
Mr. .McKENZIE: How many experimental farms are there in Canada, and where are they located?
Mr. 'CREEiAB:	There are experimental
farms and stations at Charlottetown, P.E.I.; Kentville, N.6.; Nappan, N.S.; Fredericton, N.B.; Ste. Anne de la Pocatiere, Que.; Cap Eouge, Que.; Lennoxville, :Que.; Spirit Lake, Que.; Kapuskasing, Ont.; -Mo-rden, Mian.; Brandon, Man.; Indian Head, Sask.; Ros-thern, Sask.; Scott, Sask.; Lethbridge, Alberta, Laeombe, Alberta, Summerland, B.C.; Invermere, B.C.; Agassiz, B.C.; Sydney, B.C.; and the Central Experimental Farm at Ottawa.
Mr. CAHILL; What amount of money has been expended at Kapuskasing?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The total estimate this
year is 830,000,


John Howard Sinclair: Are the Government Experimental Farms doing anytning in the way of increased production?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes. Early in March instructions were sent to all the experimental farms throughout Canada that they were to pay particular attention to that object and direct their efforts as far as possiblewhile adhering, of course to the experimental farm work in which they are engaged

 to the increasing of production, not only in cereals but in live-stock as well.


John Howard Sinclair: Can- the minister state how many additional acres the experimental farms have under crop this year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, I have not that information. It would be impossible to secure it as yet because the seeding is not all done at these farms. I do not know that the in-, crease along that line will be very great.
I think that the increase probably will be greater in the raising of hogs, and meat animals than- cereals.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: This is- a very interesting and important subject, because the experimental farm is capable of rendering great service to the country, and for that reason I would like to get a few ideas from the minister about its- work. The principal purpose of the experimental farm should be to show the ordinary farmer how things can 'be done-how certain grains, for instance, can be produced, and. -how the best kind of cattle can be raised, at an expense within the reach of the ordinary agriculturist. I am- afraid that if the Minister of Agriculture were to investigate the Experimental Farm here, which looks beautiful and magnificent in all its parts, and were to figure out what it costs for every ton of hay and every bushel of potatoes that is grown there, he would find that it is a very expensive work. I would like him, as a new man and endowed with enthusiasm, energy and youth, to introduce some new life into this idea of -experimental farming and try to demonstrate to the people what can be done. I am afraid that the Ottawa Experimental Farm is carried on at too great an expenditure and on too large a scale. I would suggest to the minister that it would be highly beneficial to establish a number of small experimental farms or stations in places not so far apart. The Dominion Experimental farm in Nova Scotia is not of so very much good for the whole province. It is of benefit within a certain radius, but only -for the comparatively -few people who can visit and see it. If there were quite a number of these stations, -consisting, perhaps, of only fifty acres of land, where the farmers of the entire locality could go and inspect what is being done, and in that way benefit by the experiments- the Government is carrying on, it would be of the greatest possible value. We in Nova -Scotia get a great

deal of benefit from the Experimental Farm at Truro and the courses that it gives, and the farmers of the province are invited to go there and view what is being done. But if there were co-operation between the Federal department and the departments of agriculture of the several provinces so that these experimental farms, like the public schools, could be established all over the country, it would be much better.
Mr. BtJBRELL: I would like to say a word or two in answer to my hon. friend, but I do not want to detain the committee by any lengthy remarks at this late date of the session, although the subject is a very interesting and important one. The hon. gentleman seemed to imply that the system by which the experimental farms have been carried on was rather a mistaken one in that vast sums of money had been expended to very little purpose, and he hoped that my hon. friend (Mr. Crerar) would turn over a new leaf. I might say that I have very great confidence in the present Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Crerar), and I have no doubt at all that he will accomplish a great deal of good. If he accomplishes more than I did as Minister of Agriculture it will be a matter of very great satisfaction to me. But I would like to disabuse the mind of my hon. friend (Mr. McKenzie) of what I think is a serious misunderstanding as to the functions of an experimental farm. No experimental farm could possibly pay if it were to fulfil its functions as an experimental farm. I quite agree with my hon. friend that a most useful work can be done by having what we should not, perhaps, call experimental farms, but demonstration farms, to show to the farmers the best methods of carrying on the ordinary farm work. An experimental farm, such as the one at Ottawa, involves the carrying on of thousands of costly experiments in order, perhaps, to evolve some one thing that may be of immense service to the country. Although I admit that at the Ottawa Farm there must have been hundreds of experiments that have cost this country thousands of dollars without ary effect except to eliminate useless1 processes, there will come as the result of that work one experiment sufficiently established to pay for the whole of the vast outlay. If I * anted to give the House a shir.ing arid conspicuous example of the truth of my arguments it would be the results achieved in connection with the reproduction of cereals 'by which the Marques wheat was evolved on the Farm, here, the 
production and dissemination of which I am absolutely confident has saved the country unto'd millions of dollars and paid ten times over the entire cost of experimental farms in Canada. I hope my hon. friend will pardon me for saying that.


Mr. CAHILL:: How is it that the Dominion Experimental Farms never seem to take any prizes for grain or anything of that kind?


Martin Burrell: The function of the experimental farms is not primarily to exhibit products or take prizes, but to carry out experiments.
' Mr. CAHILL: 'Evolve the best varieties.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I did not say that the moneys in question were expended to no purpose. My hon. friend (Mr. Burrell) could not have heard me.


Martin Burrell: I apologize if I misunderstood my hon. friend.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: What I did say was that if my hon. friend in charge of the department wants to figure out, as the ordinary farmer has to do, what it costs to raise a ton of hay or a bushel of potatoes on a farm, he could not stay in the business very long. However, he is able to draw on the moneys of the country and can afford to make these experiments. The idea I meant to convey was that perhaps demonstration farms would better enforce practical lessons in agriculture on the average farmer, and that if we had more of these farms all over the country where farmers could go and see what is being done and benefit by the experiments, it would be better than simply having one 'big farm at some one place.	*


Joseph Bruno Aimé Miville Déchêne: The idea that my hon. friend from Cape Breton North (Mr. McKenzie) has suggested has been carried cut to a great extent in the province of Quebec during recent years. We now see along the highways in a great many parishes large placards indicating that a certain field is used as a demonstration farm by the Provincial Department of Agriculture. These demonstration farms have been of the greatest possible advantage to the farmers in the locality where they are established. Accurate records are kept showing how much it has cost to produce the crop that .is being demonstrated, and this data as well as the crop itself is open to the inspection of the farmers in the neighbourhood. This system of demonstration farms which is carried on in the province of Quebec, and which has produced

such good results, should be given earnest thought and attention by the federal authorities at Ottawa. Reference to the statistics of the province of Quebec will show the Minister of Agriculture, I think, that the wheat production in that province has made a great jump during the last three years, and the same with other crops.
I think, perhaps, that if less money were spent on the beautifying of the farm here, and a greater expenditure made on practical work in the interest of the farmers, far better results would be achieved. I hope the Minister cf Agriculture will give due consideration to the suggestion of my hon. friend from Cape Breton, and that a good many more demonstration farms will be established where the farmers can go and find out for themselves the practical results that have been obtained.	,


Thomas Vien: I would like to tell the minister that it would be a good policy to establish demonstration farms in every *parish if possible. I think also it would be good policy to place them under the Director General of Experimental Farms. Mr. Grisdale is a splendid public servant, and has done much to improve the experimental farms, and under his able management demonstration farms, in almost every parish would help immensely. I represent a Tur.al riding, and have often heard farmers from my riding express a desire to have a demonstration farm in every parish, fit would not be money lost, and we might possibly spend less on large experimental farms and more on demonstration farms, because agricultural knowledge would spread much more widely because it would be more accessible to the farmers. I think we should also have under the management of the Department of Agriculture lectures on agriculture, much along the line followed toy the provincial departments. Probably the federal and provincial Departments o.f Agriculture could cooperate, and the federal department might supplement the technical instruction given by these lecturers.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is a great deal of force in the point advanced, toy the hon. gentleman who has just spoken. It means, however, that there should toe close co. operation between the federal and. the Departments of Agriculture of all the provinces to accomplish the best results. I had it in mind to invite the provincial Ministers of Agriculture to a conference after the session to consider how the provincial and the federal departments can most effectively co-operate to get the best results from the moneys spent 'by tooth. Should that conference come about, the point raised by the hon. gentleman will doubtless be considered. I think there is a great deal to be said in favour of the small demon- . stration farm, located in the community, where the farmers learn by seeing what is being done. A farmer naturally and instinctively learns more readily through the sense of sight than he does through any other of his senses. The question is .a large one of policy and will require a great deal of consideration .by the department.
Mr. FAjFARD : Is the minister aware that the crop from the experimental farm at Spirit Lake was $15,000 worth of pulpwood? It seems to me that it is folly that an experimental farm which cost over $20,000 should yield such a result. I know a little about this farm. The money was .spent not for agricultural but fcr military purposes. Spirit 'Lake is a detention camp, yet this $20,000 is probably charged to the Department of Agriculture. There is only one family living on this farm. It seems to me that the money expended at 'Spirit Lake should be charged to the Militia Department, because it is not an experimental farm; it is a detention camp.
Mr. QRERiAR: Of course, I have never visited the Spirit Lake experimental farm.
I understand that considerable expense has been necessary to clear it up and make it suitable for cultivation, and I have no doubt that, after the land is. cleared and the farm brought under cultivation a good many of the difficulties the hon. gentleman referred to will he overcome. This farm is located in a district which, I understand., is being settled, or is partially settled now, and its purpose is (to supply information to the farmers in the district.


Mr. FAFARD:: But the $15,000 received for pulpwood was turned over to the Militia Department and the money spent was for miliitia purposes. There are no farmers for miles around. A few years ago you could walk one hundred miles north, south, east and west and find no settlement. There are to-day only about forty families around there. I know the country very well.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I want to congratulate the Union Government upon having a practical agriculturist at the head of the department, if the minister is one, as I understand he is. I do not rise to oppose the appropriation, hut I do want to make one or two suggestions.- I do so hesitatingly, knowing

that he is a farmer of repute, while I do not profess to be in that class-. But I have paid some attention to the working of some of the branch experimental farms through the eastern section of the Dominion, and while I do not want to apply my criticism to all of them, what money is spent on a number of these farms I can say to the minister is a criminal waste of public money. Not one dollar of benefit is derived by the agricultural population from the working and operation of these farms. I am not asking .that an extra man be employed, but if there is one good practical man now in his department, I would advise the minister to make that man a general inspector or superintendent, whatever he pleases to term the office, and send him through the country to get a personal report in regard to these farms. I do not know about the Central Experimental Farm at Ottawa. I have had the very great pleasure of visiting that farm several times.
I spend Saturday afternoons there when the House is not sitting, and enjoy it immensely. I notice that a great many of the city people go out there and have a picnic.
I fail to see many farmers around there getting instruction. Of course, it is a great convenience to the people of Ottawa to be able to get green, vegetables from the gardens, fresh bouquets' from the greenhouses, and things of that kind; I am not finding fault about that. But it would be better to have a few small experimental stations in the different localities, which could more conveniently be visited by the people. In New Brunswick there is' an experimental farm outside of Fredericton. It takes a man in my section of the province two days to get there and back. The purpose of an experimental farm is to give out practical information. I know some of the men who have charge of these farms. They are not -practical farmers and never were; they simply have the job of superintendent at a fairly good salary. When I discussed this matter last year and the year before, the ex-Minister of Agriculture (Hon. Mr. Burrell) made reference to the splendid report that he had received from the superintendent of that -experimental farm. Naturally, that gentleman would not make a report unfavourable to himself. We have deficits on these farms; we do not expect them to pay-indeed, the superintendents do not try to make them pay; they seem to think that the more money they can spend, the more -expensive horses-, harness and machinery they buy, the more the farmers will think of the experimental farm. Of course, the farmer does not know that at

the end of the year there is a deficit of anywhere from $5,000 to $50,000 in the operation of that farm. I do not ask my hon. friend to reduce by one dollar the 'appropriation for the encouragement of agriculture, because if there is any industry or occupation that should be assisted in every possible way, * it is agriculture. But I do suggest that my hon. friend make a study of the work done by these farms and see that money is not wasted. Very little good comes to the people from the operation of the Central Experimental Farm, or of the branch stations throughout the country. My hon. friend himself can visit these farms or send some one in whom he has confidence to inspect them and report to him as to the best method of making them really beneficial to people interested in agriculture. If he does so, I believe that he will get a report along the lines of the suggestion which I have made.
Mr. 'MIOHAEL CLARK: Coming as I do from one of the agricultural provinces of the West, I want to say to my hon. friend that my experience is quite different from his. We have an experimental farm, in the town of Lacombe, Alberta. Under the management of a very able man, Mr. Hutton, that farm is doing a great deal of good to agriculture in my province. I' have been there on many occasions. On one occasion I saw a colt only thirteen months old which weighed 1,300 pounds. I naturally conceived the desire to have colts of that size on my own farm, and others with me had the same feeling. Large excursions- of farmers are- made to this experimental farm station in order that they may see the very best work that can be done in agriculture as it is done on that farm. 'The Minister of Agriculture for that province, joining ihis forces with those of the Dominion Government, goes there frequently. 'Men well versed in many forms of agricultural pursuits1 go there and give addresses to large numbers of farmers and their female relatives. The farm sends out cultures for the production of certain kinds of clover and other things. I do not know about New Brunswick, but I do know that the- people of Alberta generally value very much the experimental farm at Lacombe and that the farmers derive very great benefit from the various operations that are carried on there, and from the courteous replies that the superintendent of the farm will always make to inquiries sent to him about anything connected with agriculture. I am sure the member for Westmorland (Mr. iCopp) will

be glad to hear that in Alberta, at any rate, the experimental farm is doing good.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I am delighted that the superintendent of the farm to which my hon. friend (Mr. M. Clark) refers carries out his work along the lines mentioned.. If all the stations were conducted in that way, possibly they would do a great deal of good. My experience is different from that of my hon. friend. Nobody encourages people interested in agriculture, to make excursions to these farms in the East to see the work that is done there. The minister will do well to see that every farm has a superintendent who [DOT]will look after the work properly. I believe that it would be an advantage if farms were established in the sma'ler localities as rapidly as possible.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: 
François Jean Pelletier: Has the Federal Government voted any subsidies to the Provincial Governments for the upkeep of some of the demonstration farms that have been opened?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Under the Agricultural Instruction Act a grant is given to the provinces, and I understand that part of that money is expended in carrying on this demonstration work and in the appointment of agricultural representatives in the various provinces.


François Jean Pelletier: Some four years ago I wrote to my predecessor, Mr. Boulay, in regard to this matter, and as is well known, he and I did not altogether agree, and we
do not yet. I asked him to endeavour to have a subsidy voted in the interest of the farmers, that is to say, in order to have demonstration farms opened up in different parts of the province. My riding is divided in two by a chain of mountains, and I asked him to have one in the vicinity of Matapedia and one along the river St. Lawrence. His first answer was that the climate and the soil along the St. Lawrence river were not good enough to establish a demonstration farm, so I wrote him stating that those were two reasons why we needed scientific farming. I had no answer to that last letter. I therefore wrote to
11 p.m. the ex-Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Burrell), and he replied that he was prepared to assist the Provincial Government in opening up such demonstration farms. If at any. time the minister should make up his mind to take up this matter, and if he should wish to take a trip through my riding, to see whether the climate and soil are such that demonstration farms should be located there, I shall be delighted to take him from one end of my constituency to the other.


William Frederic Kay: How much is being spent at Lennoxville station this year? Will the minister give an outline of the work, being done there?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The Estimate for the Lennoxville station for the present year is $36,000.


William Frederic Kay: Are the buildings on the farm finished yet?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.


William Frederic Kay: Will they be completed this year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that the dairy building will be finished this year, but probably not the others.


William Frederic Kay: How much of this item is for purchase of livestock?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Four thousand dollars.


William Frederic Kay: Does that cover all experimental farms?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: For Lennoxville alone.


William Frederic Kay: Ho;w much for all the farms?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have the information here for each farm separately. I have not it totalled.


William Frederic Kay: Is it the policy of the department to have excursions run to all the farms every year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It has been the policy in the past to have that carried out, and it was carried out as far as it was possible to arrange excursions with the railway companies. It has been the practice to a very large extent in the West and in the East also.


William Frederic Kay: Is it the intention to have any excursions, run this year? I understand the Railway War Board has prohibited the running of excursions.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I believe the Railway War Board some time ago took the attitude that excursions should not be run to summer fairs. They have already modified that attitude, and those excursions to summer fairs will be run as usual. I cannot say whether they will extend that to cover excursions to experimental farms or not. They will have to be guided by existing conditions.


William Frederic Kay: If my hon. friend will put
the matter strongly enough before the board, I am sure they will be pleased to allow excursions to experimental farms. The minister will understand that excursions to experimental farms are more important than excursions to summer fairs.


Mr.   DEQHENE@: When the farmers' delegation was in town the other day, how many of those four or five thousand farmers visited the experimental farm here? I was out there one day with a few of my farmer constituents, and there seemed to be only a few there. If only a few farmers visited the experimental farm on that occasion, it would be pretty hard to get them to take advantage of excursions to visit those farms.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That delegation did not come primarily to visit experimental farms, but the director states that several hundred of them visited it.


Joseph Read: Has the department taken any cognizance of the fox fur farming which is one of the most important of the new industries of the twentieth century? It is second only to agriculture. 'The fur farming industry is a new departure in human industry.
In the early period of our race, when the limit of subsistence was so narrow, when our antediluvian forefathers- lived by the chase, not even communal life could exist- After a while it was discovered that they could domesticate the wild boar that they hunted, and gradually he became our modern pig. They domesticated the buffalo, she became the modern cow. They domesticated the
[fMr. Kay.]
epohiccos and he became the modern horse. They domesticated the mountain sheep and goat and gave us our modern -animals of those species. The limit of subsistence was widened so as to permit of our antediluvian forefathers forming themselves into tribes, and then internecine warfare ceased, because it was discovered they could produce better results by domestication than by hunting the wild animals. This widened the limit- of subsistence ten-fold. After a while, they discovered that the grains and the grasses on which these animals had been living could in many cases be used for human food. Then horticulture- and agriculture was born. That widened the limit of subsistence twenty-fold and enabled the generations succeeding our antediluvian forefathers to develop into nations, and so the world moved along, gradually evolving, and developing the natural resources that lay open to mankind. The solution of the problem of increased population, which always presses again-st the limit of subsistence, was found, in a measure, by the discovery of America. -Our forefathers came across here and relieved the congestion of western Europe, and what was the result? Art, science, literature, learning, civil government, -as if by magic, followed; then democracy, the thing we are fighting for to-day. After a while our own great continent was being filled up, and the people who came to -Canada moved into the United States because the climate there was warmer, living conditions were easier, and the struggle for existence was less. But before this war br-oke out the time had come when the great areas of land in the United -States were becoming filled up, and people were migrating to Canada in thousands and tens of thousands. What occurred -almost providentially, as it were, at that time? The people in my little province discovered or inaugurated, if you will, the art of furfarming. If you will follow the progress of our race and the developments that -have taken place with the widening of the limit of subsistence, yon will find that fox-fur farming is -a new cult, and one which the people of northern- climates must talke into consideration. If you will look at the map of Europe, of Asia and of North America, you will find that the bulk of the land area that is- unpeopled to-day is in this great northland. What is necessary in this- great northland is warm clothing and fuel, and- this particular industry has come into toeing from the necessities of the case, and it is up to the Department of Agriculture to take hold of it and see that

it is developed still further. If we have a paternal Government let its paternalism be practical and along the lines of development. As I said in one of my discussions before in this House, overflowing population is largely the cause of the present war, and the great territory of North America and the immense territory of Canada can only be exploited by producing conditions that will enable the northern people to grow up in this land, and it is only in the northern lands that energy is developed, because in the southern climates enervation and all that sort of thing obtains. If we are going to produce a great race in this country, we have to produce conditions that will enable our people to take up these northern lands and live in northern latitudes and so develop.
(Mr. CARVELL: Does my hon. friend think the Department of Agriculture could sell foxes for any better price than the farmers of Prince Edward Island can?


Joseph Read: The period of frenzied finance in the fox business is past, and the business is now on a commercial basis, and.it ought never to have 'been on anything else. Originally the people who were interested in the fox business, like the people interested in western lands and British Columbia real estate, simply went after wildcats and went into a period of frenzied finance, hut that is past and it is up to the Department of Agriculture to take up this question of fur farming and develop it to the end that our great country may be populated by a strong and virile population that will dominate the world with a glorious civilization.


Mr. PETER ROBERT McGIBBON:: I
had occasion a number of years ago to go on an excursion with a lot of other farmers to an experimental farm-I was a farmer then but I am not now-and my experience with experimental farms was not very good. II am glad to hear that in some parts of the world experimental farms are a success, but the farm I visited, which was near Ottawa, was not what it should be. The potatoes were eaten up with potato bugs until there was nothing hut the stalks left, the grain was filled with weeds, and was sowed very late in the season. The cattle were extra good, and we farmers knew very well that they were fed at the Government trough; they were fed at our expense, and so it was easy to pour the feed into them. The great trouble at that farm was the patronage system. Every man about the farm, from the
labourer up, was there because of the recommendation of the member for his constituency, and that made them very independent. They said: "We were sent here by So-and-So, and our boss cannot discharge us." So they did no work, and there was no one to hoe the corn. I am glad that in the present Minister of Agriculture we have a young man who is a capable farmer and will attend to his business. I know that he will go to these farms and see for himself how the work is carried on, and I know further, that if he will cut out the patronage system there the work will develop and progress ,as if the farm were run by private individuals.
The trouble in the East has been the patronage system, no matter what Government has been in. power. I am not bringing politics into this because I must say that at the time I visited the Experimental farms they were under the Liberal regime. Now we have a young man at the head of affairs, he gave u? a good explanation' in answer to the questions that were asked him, and I am certain he will make a success of the experimental farms all over Canada. We must go on with farming and we must do everything possible to increase production.


Mr. ETHIER:: I see there is an increase of $122,036.60 in this item for experimental farms and branch stations. Will provision be made for additional branch stations to encourage tobacco culture? Since 1903 there has been a special branch at the Experimental Farm under Mr. Charlan who has charge of experimental work in connection with the culture of tobacco. In view of the increase in the duties which were announced by the hon. Acting Minister of Finance in his budget speech on tobacco, and in view of this increase in the Estimates for experimental farms, we might expect the establishment of additional branches to encourage tobacco culture. We have an experiment station at St. Jacques and I think that is the only one we have in the province of Quebec.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is one at Farn-ham.


Joseph Arthur Calixte Éthier: Yes, and we have one at St. Jacques. There was a good start made in 1903 in connection with tobacco culture. The farmers of this section, who were anxious to cultivate tobacco, were encouraged to do so but since that time, as I bad occasion to point out to the minister a few days ago, the efforts in this direction have diminished. Nothing has been



done, and yet the duty on tobacco has been increased. No encouragement has been offered to the farmers who are cultivating tobacco. I would suggest that if it is the intention of the Government to maintain branch farms under the supervision of my good friend, the director of experimental farms, whom I see her.e, the Government might give him more, power and might authorize him, out of this increased vote, to establish additional branches in the counties where tobacco culture should be encouraged and intensified. The tobacco industry is well known in such counties as Montcalm, L'Assomption, Jacques Cartier, Two Mountains, and Laval and it should be encouraged more than it is. We have only one station at St. Jacques and that is not sufficient. If it is the intention to take this away from the control of the experimental farm and to place it under the .direct control of the department, very well; but if it is to be retained under the experimental farm I would ask the minister to give us, in the counties of Laval, Two Mountains, Montcalm, l'Assomption and Jacques Cartier two or three additional branches. Do I understand the Government intend to continue the station at St. Jacques? The tobacco industry is a good thing for the country and for out farmers, and it should be encouraged in every way possible.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is provision for the extension of these farms, and the suggestion that a portion of the money voted shall be used for additional experimental stations to encourage tobacco raising will he taken into consideration.
For 'the administration and enforcement of the destructive insect and pest Act, ? 134,400.


Thomas Vien: Would the minister tell us how the increase of $49,400 is made up? I do not know that the amount spent last year reduced the effects of the destructive insects and pests.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The increase is to provide for scouting work with a view of preventing the spread of the white pine blister, a pest that has threatened to destroy, to a very great degree, the white pine forests of Canada. A certain amount of investigation work has been carried on in conjunction with the United States Government in this respect, and it is designed to confine this pest to the localities in which it is at present found.


Mr.   DEICHENE@: Has this pest established itself al-1 over Canada, or merely in some parts of the eastern provinces? I am
[Mr. Dthier.J
told that in our district balsam and spruce, and especially the young trees, have been attacked by some insect pest?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The pest alluded to is
found in southern Ontario and in Quebec mainly south of the St. Lawrence river. Those are the localities in Canada where it is chiefly found. . So far it is not known in Western Canada.
Mr. (DEOHBNE: There are a great many places in the counties of Montmagny and Bellechasse where young trees have been attacked by some pest. '


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Pine trees?


Mr.   DBGHENE@: Balsam especially and
young spruce.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The white pine blister
does not affect the spruce or balsam.
Mr. DECHEiNE:	In the localities to
which I refer balsam and spruce, especially the young trees, have been attacked by a blister.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It must have been something other than the white pine blister. I am informed that this particular pest affects only the white pine.
For the development of the dairying industries, and the improvement of transportation, sale and trade in food and other agricultural products, $1'55,00'0:


James Alexander Robb: As the Government is desirous of passing some resolutions before we adjourn I think the minister might report progress, because this item is an import one and is going to cause some debate.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: 'Would it be
agreeable to pass a few more items, leaving one, with the understanding that there can be a general discussion upon it?


James Alexander Robb: The hon. member for
Missisquoi (Mr. Kay) had something which he wished to discuss, but he seems to have left the Chamber. In the meantime perhaps this would be a fitting occasion for the minister to make a statement in regard to the dairy * industry. There is very little use in spending a lot of money to promote the dairy industry, if the Government is going to pursue the same policy next year that it did during the present year, and that is withholding the feed supplies that are required in Eastern Canada. I have already drawn- the minister's attention this session to the fact that the Canada Food Board, of which he is the chairman I understand, after fixing the price of bran and shorts at a very low figure,

put in force regulations prohibiting the shipment of these feed stuffs to Eastern Canada. While we cannot do anything to repair the damage that was done last year, I think it is proper for the minister to make a statement as to what policy will 'be pursued next year.
,Mr. CRERAR:	The feed situation for
livestock throughout Canada during the past winter was an exceptionally hard one. We were in the position that, had transportation been available, an abundance of corn could have been secured from the United States, and there would have been no hardship to any feeders in Eastern Canada, or, for that matter in Western Canada, The regulations that the hon. gentleman has referred to, which prevented for a considerable length of time the shipment of bran and shorts from the manufacturers in Western Canada to Eastern Canada was passed for two reasons; there was a severe shortage of feed in Western Canada and the farmers there who were short of feed, as their brother farmers in the East were short of feed, desired that they should be given the preference on bran and shorts manufactured in the West; and there was also the necessity of utilizing every possible freight car to carry wheat to the seaboard for overseas. The situation in Great Britain, France and Italy with respect to their wheat supplies, was serious throughout the past winter, as the hon. gentleman is perhaps aware, and the transpprtation facilities from Fort William east -were taxed to their utmost to carry to the seaboard the wheat that in ordinary years would have remained *in storage in Fort William until the opening of navigation. I appreciate very fully the seriousness of the situation that existed last winter and also the Department of Agriculture did what it could in the matter.	As	hon. gentlemen are perhaps aware-some of them at any rate-the department purchased large supplies of oilcake in New York and distributed some five or six thousand tons to the cattle feeders in Quebec, Ontario and the Maritime Provinces. The shipment of screenings from the Fort William elevators to the United States was prohibited, and the material in those screenings that was fit for animal feed retained in Canada. Had cars been available we could have secured thousands of cars of corn from the United States. However, owing to the transportation tie-up it was impossible to get them and the condition resulted that my hon. friend has referred to.
145J


James Alexander Robb: The minister has dodged the real issue. What we require now is a statement from the minister as to the Government's policy for next year.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The policy of the department for next year will be the same as it has been for the past year-to endeavour to supply feed, if there is a lack of feed. In respect of the particular prohibition of the shipment of bran and shorts from Western Canada to Eastern Canada to which my hon. friend takes exception I do not see any reason why that prohibition should be imposed in the coming year unless the crop of coarse grains in Western Canada this season should be another failure, in which case, of course, it may be necessary to retain it. But I will see to it, as far as I am able to' do so, that the condition that my hon. friend takes exception to shall not occur again. '
.Mr. ROBB: I want to follow the subject a little further, because the minister has not made a very satisfactory explanation to my mind. As, to his statement that a shortage of cars prevented shipments from the West to the East, that will not go. The western farmer really, in his selfishness, kept that bran and shorts himself and bulled up the price of the oats and barley which the eastern farmer was compelled to buy. That was the outcome of it all. The western farmers kept the low-priced feed for themselves and an embargo was placed on bran and shorts by Mr. J. D. McGregor, of the Food Control Board, who himself is a large cattle owner. That prohibition absolutely debarred the western millers from shipping carloads of bran and shorts to the eastern dealers.
But there were lots of cars to ship oats and barley East. The western farmer kept this cheap mill feed. They fixed the price-down low. If this policy is repeated the result will be that the western flour mills will be compelled to shut down, because the men in the East will not buy flour to keep the mills running unless they can get the equivalent feed. The result will be to cripple the industry of Western Canada. But leaving that altogether, I come to another issue that the minister raised. He has told us that they were providing screenings or the scalpings of the elevators, the weed seeds for eastern dairymen This was a complete change of policy on the part of the Government experts of Canada. We have just passed Estimates to-niglit to provide salaries for our agricultural experts, the men who are giving advice to the farmers. No later than December, 1916, the

minister's own department put out this circular to the farmers of Canada. The complaint had been made that the millers of Canada were mixing their screenings or scalpings in their feed, and it was having a very detrimental effect upon the animals using it. I will read this part of the circular, dated December, 1916, entitled "Memorandum re Weed Seeds in Mill Feeds":
This is to aflvise you that a considerable number of samples of mill feeds and' ground1 feeding stuffs are received from feeders, together with the usual statements that as a result of feeding them their cattle, hogs or poultry, and occasionally horses, are sick. In a few instances some animals are reported to have died.
The Investigations that have been made cover a period of several years, and provide an accumulation of evidence that would seem to establish beyond reasonable doubt that the fine weed seeds, particularly of worm-seed and other mustards, when contained in mill feeds or other ground feeding stuffs even in relatively small quantities, are unwholesome and frequently seriously injurious t.o the health of stock.
And this is the stuff that the minister was putting out, the scalpings from these elevators, which the department objected to the millers putting into the mill feed, which it claimed was injurious to- live stock.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: 
Joseph Read: There was a circular delivered, I dare say, to most of the members of the House to-day from some one connected with this screening business in Fort William, claiming that, the elevators were violating the Inspection of Grain law and were exporting screenings in a very large degree, millions of bushels in fact, from the elevators. Does the minister know anything about that?
Mr. CRERAR? The point is scarcely relevant to the item under discussion, but I will give the information. All our Western grain, when it is moving down to the terminal lake ports, is inspected in Winnipeg, and the Government inspector places upon it the dockage. When it enters the terminal elevators, it is the business of the operator to clean it to the standard set by the inspector. That means that a large volume of screenings from the grain is accumulated in the elevators. It has been the custom and the practice in previous years to ship these screenings to Duluth and other United States points. They had a market there which more readily absorbed that class of .feed than our market in Canada. However, as. I pointed out to the hon. member for Huntingdon, the regulations were enforced last autumn whereby these screenings had to he re-cleaned in the Fort William and the Port Arthur elevators, and the portion taken from them tit for animal food was retained in Canada.	[DOT]


James Alexander Robb: Will the minister say if there was a price fixed?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There was a price fixed of $35.per ton at the Fort William elevators.


Mr.   McM ASTER@: I gather from the minister's reply to the question asked by the hon. member for Chateauguay-Huntingdon (Mr. Robb) that there were possible conditions under which he would suggest that mill feed would not be shipped to Eastern Canada. I must take exception to that. Canada is one unit, and he is Minister of Agriculture for the whole country. And on-ce the price is fixed, or even if no price is fixed, on mill products, then all parts of the country must get equal treatment, as one danger of fixing prices is that after you fix a price, and there is not enough to go around, you must take upon yourselves to make an arbitrary distribution. That is one danger in fixing prices. But I would take very strong issue with the minister if he will say that he is going to favour any one part of the country at the expense of another. He will probably say

that the western mills are grinding this stuff, and therefore the western farmers should be entitled to it because it is made out of their product. My hon. friend from Chateauguay-Huntingdon says that would be all right if the western farmer would eat the flour, but his appetite does not go that far. Perhaps it is a work of supererogation, a painting of the lily or gilding of refined gold, to remind my hon. friend that he is Minister of Agriculture for the whole of the Dominion of Canada, and he must have a Dominion-wide appreciation of his own powers and his own position.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I can quite assure the hon. gentleman that I shall endeavour not to forget the fact that I am Minister of Agriculture for the whole of Canada, and I hope I am fair enough to endeavour to avoid any discrimination in the exercise of the powers of the department, against any portion of Canada. Possibly a condition might arise where it would be necessary to ship feeding stuffs from Eastern Canada to Western Canada. But there will be no discrimination against any part of Canada. I stated quite frankly that I did not feel like giving a definite, absolute guarantee to the hon. member for Chateauguay-Huntingdon that there would be no restriction of the shipment of bran and shorts from Western to Eastern Canada. I do not know what the conditions will be next year. But I lay this down, that there will be no discrimination so far as the administration of the department is concerned.


Joseph Read: Will the minister see that the grain laws are carried out to the end that those who are producing feeds at Fort William are not debarred from getting the screenings from the elevator? A circular which I have received points out that the elevator people are sending the screenings to the United1 States and refusing them to the people who are making mill feed.


William Frederic Kay: A moment ago the minister said that the price of screenings had been . fixed at $35 a ton, Fort William. The Food Board have fixed the price of bran at $24 a ton, Fort William. As a feeder, I would rather have one ton of bran than two tons of these weeds. The price of shorts was fixed at $35. On what basis were the prices of these feeds fixed?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There was really no fixation of price of screenings, beyond this: the terminal elevators at Fort William had the situation placed before them and were asked to turn their screenings in at $35 a
ton. They agreed to do so. I cannot say what consideration entered into the fixing of the price of bran and shorts; that was done by the Food Controller prior to any association of the Food Board with the Department of Agriculture. My own view is that, in relation to the price of other feeds1, the price of bran and shorts was too low.
Mr. ROlBB: The minister says that he does not know what consideration entered into the fixing of the price of 'bran and shorts. I will tell him the story as given to me by a man who was on the board which fixed Ithe price. It was said: why do you want the price of this stuff fixed in bulk?-the trade is accustomed to buying it sacked, and the price should be fixed, to say the least, sacks included. Well, it was answered, the sacks cost $6 a ton and if you fix the price sacks included that will make it $6 higher. As we are on the eve of a general election, it would look better to fix the price at $24. I suppose that the price of screenings was fixed after the election, so that the same considerations did not apply.


Mr. TOBIN:: On April 18 I put a question to the Minister of Agriculture:
In reference to the Auditor General's Report for the year ending .March 31. 1917, volume 1, page A-7 2, C. N. Lyster, Kirkdale, Quebec, care of bulls and stallions, $1,947.03, freight, $104.10.
In this case almost $2,000 was paid to a man named Lyster for taking care of a few bulls and stallions. He received fourteen bulls in one car-of these five were shipped to other districts, leaving him nine -and five stallions, for the care of which this country paid him $2,000.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: When did this take place?


Edmund William Tobin: Last year. This has been going on for one or two years. Why should this live stock be sent to any individual farmer? The men who are paid large sums to look after live stock in the various districts throughout the country should see that these animals are well taken care of. When the animals are sent from one district to another, they should be put in good condition. If they are not in good condition, why should they not he sent to some of the experimental farms to be put in good condition? Mr. McClary who is in charge of the farm at Lennoxville, is a proper farmer; there is no better man in Canada. Be runs the farm on a business basis and his work is appreciated by the people of the Eastern Townships. Imagine

paying a man $2,000 to take care of a few ibulls and. stallions. Is it the policy of the department to continue 'that waste of money in the future?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The transaction my hon. friend refers to took place before I became associated with the department and I have no personal knowledge of it. The policy is to run the department as efficiently and economically as possible and to give the service that 'it is intended to give. The suggestion of the hon. member that these sires be wintered, if necessary, at experimental farmg is a good one and will be taken into consideration.


Edmund William Tobin: The head of the minister's department of live stock in the Eastern Townships is Mr. Girard, whose headquarters are at Sherbrooke. The matter to which I refer has been drawn to my attention by different farmers in that district. It is a disgrace that these breeding animals should be unloaded at various places in such bad1 condition.


William Frederic Kay: The Government have been urging the farmers to increase the production of live stock, especially of cattle and pigs. A large number of expert agriculturists were sent out to hold .meetings to urge the farmers to increase production, and with this end in view advertising was extensively carried on in the farm papers. In those advertisements and through the speakers at all the meetings, the promise was made that the Government would1 see to it that the farmers had feed in abundance at a low price.


James Alexander Robb: That was before the election.


William Frederic Kay: Yes, but even since the election they have kept up that propaganda. I have here a sheet of advertisements under the headings: " Large supply of hog feed available," " Government co-operation," " bran and shorts," " United States corn." This is sent out by the Dominion of Canada, Department of Agriculture. The advertisement in connection with bran and shorts reads:
By licensing the flour mills, the Government allows a profit of twenty-five cents a barrel on the flour only-the bran and shorts are to be sold at cost, which ensures the farmer getting his feed at a moderate price. Steps have also been taken to prevent the adulteration of bran and- shorts.
We would all be very much interested to know what steps have been taken to prevent the adulteration of bran and shorts, because adulteration has been very extensively carried on during the last winter.

I know of cases where feed sold as bran and shorts has been fed to pigs and cows, and where a large number of them have died, and the post morten held by the veterinary has disclosed the fact that the feed has been responsible for the death. The advertisement on United States corn reads:
The United -States has the greatest corn crop in her history

more than 600,000,000 bushels in excess of 1916. The United States will have a large surplus for export which will be available to Canadian producers. . . . The licensing system will not likely toe used in connection with the 1917 crop which will he on the market about the middle of December, hut the United States Government will exercise some form of control which will prevent speculation. In the meantime, any one in Canada can import American corn for any legitimate purpose, such as feed, by obtaining a license. Application for license is made through the Canadian Food Controller.
I do not wish to Tead all these advertisements- of which there is a full page, and I 'have several more of them. The whole drift of these advertisements and of the meetings that were held w.as to make the farmer believe he would get plenty of good feed at a reasonable price. The poor farmer believed that promise of the Government just as he believed the promise in regard to non-conscription of farmers, and he prepared to increase the number of brood sows and the production of pigs during this year. What happened? Until late this spring no corn came into this country from the United States, and what corn- came in then was badly damaged by heating. I do not, of course, hold the Government responsible for that. As regards bran, shorts and middlings, we have been told
. 12 m. for a very long time that the Allies require all the flour that -we can supply; in fact, that we must curtail our consumption of flour in order to ship flour overseas. The Canada Food Board has even passed orders restricting the quantity of flour which -may be eaten. It is very difficult to convince any farmer or any other man in Canada who knows- the conditions that there is any shortage of flour in this country. Every dealer or farmer who wishes to buy a car of feed is obliged to purchase 150 to 200 bags of flour in the oar. If I wished to buy a carload of mixed bran, shorts, middlings and. mill feed, and I wrote to one of the large mills for a quotation, the reply I would get would- be that I would have to take in that car 200 bags of flour. I have no use for those 200 bags of flour, neither has a dealer any use for so much flour. Not only from tlhe point of view of the farmer

or dealer who. did not want the flour, but from the point of view of the example which such action gives to the people of Canada, it is difficult to convince .any body of people that there is a shortage of flour and that the consumption of flour should be curtailed when the millers are forcing flour into the hands of farmers and- dealers against their wishes. I hold here carload quotations from some of the larger mills. This letter is dated January 31, 1918:
We can book at present a few mixed cars of flour and feed for February shipment. However, the great scarcity of feeds forces us to ask for flour to be included in the cars. Our oars are made up somewhat as follows:
150 bags flour.
100 bags bran.
100 bags "Bullrush" middlings.
100 bags white middlings.
This is another letter, dated January 14; 1918:
We require 20 0 hags of flour per car.
That was from the Oigilvie Flour Mills Company, Limited. This is another letter, dated March 19, 1918:
200 bags Standard flour.
100 bags "Bullrush" middlings.
50 bags white middlings.
50 hags bran.
And then there are 200 bags of some of those patent feeds which are made up from sweepings and dust and ground weeds, cobwebs, ground straw and that sort of thing. The minister should take up with the Canada Food Board the absolute necessity of making the millers retain their flour for shipment overseas. I have had several conversations with the minister in regard to this matter, and he seems to he under the * impression that the mills have ceased putting flour into these carloads of feed, but I assure him that is not the case.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Are the mills still making that a condition of their sales?


William Frederic Kay: Yes.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Will the hon. member furnish me with the names of the mills?


William Frederic Kay: I was speaking last week to a dealer who has en route now a car which contains 200 bags of flour. I have seen other letters., and I can furnish the minister with them, but the local dealer says: "I am uot going to le't you have this letter, because if I .do so, and if it comes back to the mills that I have given their name to the minister, they will never again sell me any feed flour; I must have the feed and the farmers are willing to buy the feed at the
prices I ask." The dealer is compelled to get rid of the flour as best he can.
I saw another letter from one large mill that my friend had written to asking why hey forced flour on him that he did not want. The mill replied that iney did not want to force flour on anybody. That is perfectly true in a way, but the mill went on to say in their letter, " If you take two hundred bags of flour in your car we will ship your car at once. If you cannot take two hundred we cannot ship your car'oad of feed at all. We have not enough feed, and we will send you a few Ions of bran and shorts at local freight rates " The minister knows very well how that would run up the price of feed to the farmer.
There is another matter. The price of bran and shorts in bulk was fixed last fall at Fort William. The dealer was allowed to charge five cents a bag, I believe, over and above his cost if he sold out of the car. A great many of the dealers on account of the shortage of feed have asked very much higher prices than the fixed price. Very often the dealer did not buy direct from the miller, but from a jobber. Now the jobbers have been able to sell straight carloads of feed; how I do not know, because no dealer can buy a straight carload of feed from the mills. The jobbers, however seem to have been able to do it iand to. sell to the dealer. In every case they charge four or five dollars per ton more for a straight carload of bran, shorts and middlings than if a certain number of bags of flour were included. The jobber himself has charged more than the fixed price for bran and shorts, but the farmer could not complain against his local dealer, because he was in the position where he had to have the feed and. could only get a ton here and a ton there at a time, and if he complained that the dealer charged too much the dealer would give him no more feed. The live stock industry has been very, very seriously affected by the slackness or incompetence of the Canada Food Board in dealing with the question of feed stuffs. The farmer who believed the propaganda put out by the Board of Agriculture last, fall believed he would be able to buy feed at a fair price, and largely increased the number of his pigs and dairy animals generally. When winter came he found he had a great many more animals than he was accustomed to have, and more than he would have had if it had not been for this propaganda, and when he could not get the feed he required he was discouraged. His faith in

the Government and in the Department of Agriculture, to which he looks for protection, has been rudely shaken and very justifiably so. It is almost incomprehensible why the department should have allowed this situation to continue for so long as it has.
I should like to take up for a moment the question of why so, much bran and shorts and mill feed has been allowed to be exported from this country to the United States during the last year. I have tried by questions during this year to find out from the Minister of Agriculture how much bran and shorts have been exported to the United States. I asked if the exportation of bran, shorts and mill feed to the United States was allowed, and if so, how much had been exported during the last six months, and he gave me a list of a few thousand bags which had been exported ;o the West Indies and Newfoundland and never mentioned the exportation to the United States at all. I put a further question on the Order Paper asking for the exportation to the United States, and after it had been on the Order Paper for some . days it was changed to an order for a return. A day or so ago I asked the Minister of Customs when I might expect a return to that order and he professed to know nothing about it, and the Minister of Agriculture seemed to be in the same position. However, since then an hon. friend on this ride of the House has got the information, so I will not bother my hon. friend further in that respect. I find that from August, 1917, to February, 1918, [DOT]both inclusive, the value of bran, shorts and mill 'feed, exported from this country was $3,666,784, of which $3,512,945 was exported to the United States.


Mr. CUEEIE:: What is the item before the House?


The CHAIEMAN:: Item No. 48, as follows:
For the development of the dairy industries, and the improvement of transportation, sale and trade in food and other agricultural products, $15'5,000.


William Frederic Kay: It is very difficult for a farmer to understand why, when we are so short of feed in this country, this Government which had prohibited the exportation of feed without a license should have allowed such a vast amount of feed to be shipped to the United States.


Mr.   CEEEAE@: What time was this feed shipped to the United States?


William Frederic Kay: I will give the figures by months: August, 1917, $959,806; September, $406,091; October, $594,068; November, $806,904; December, $624,733; January, 1918, $182,563; February, $92,619.


Mr.   CEEEAE@: What classes of feed were included in that?


William Frederic Kay: Bran, mill feed, etc.


Mr.   CEEEAE@: From what source did my hon. friend get his* information?


William Frederic Kay: From the Customs Department. I will hand the statement to the minister. I do not like to take up the time of the committee-
Some hon. MEMBEES: Hear, hear.


William Frederic Kay: My hon. friends are not farmers or they would be very glad to support me in a plea for better treatment of the farmer by the Government of this country. Some of our friends on the other side of the House are farmers, and some profess to be farmers, but we all know they have not stood up in the House this session for the rights of the farmers, so I am hot at all surprised to find them wearying a little because it is getting late. I think the whole question of the farming industry has received altogether too little consideration from the House during this session The agricultural industry is the backbone of the country. We have been told on the excellent authority of the Government that the farmer is doing as much to win the war as the man in the front line trenches. We have been urged to produce and still urged to produce. A great many of the ministers seem to think that all a farmer has to do is to put his seed in the ground in the spring and that the good: Lord alone will harvest it for him. Would the minister give the committee some explanation of how this feed situation has become as had as it is and some guarantee to the farmers that, during next winter at least, steps will be taken by the Government to control, not only the price of feed, hut the .millers, that flour, which is needed overseas, is not forced into the country at the expense of the farmers and that farmers will be assured a sufficient supply of feed in order' to produce the beef and pork necessary to supply our Allies? The dairy industry, unless it receives some1 convincing assurance from the Government, will be very much curtailed during next winter.


Mr.   CEEEAE@: Mr. Chairman, I followed with quite a considerable degree of inter-

est the remarks of the hon. member for Miseisquoi (Mr. Kay). As far as the lack of feed for live-stock during last winter is concerned, I repeat that it was all due to the difficulty of transportation. At the time the campaign for greater hog production in Canada was embarked upon last autumn it was the intention of the Govern

ment-and the Government and the Department of Agriculture endeavoured to live up to that intention-to supply feed, or to see that feed was supplied, to the farmers who undertook the production of these, hogs. The United States last year had the largest corn crop in their history. The farmers in Indiana, Iowa, Qhio and certain other corn-producing states could not market their com throughout the winter months for the lack of transportation. I want to assure my hon. friend that the importance of the matter did not escape the attention of the department at Ottawa. Early in January I brought one of the largest cash brokers in Chicago, a man whom I know personally ias a perfectly reliable man, to discuss the whole situation with me in Ottawa and I endeavoured to make an arrangement with him whereby' corn might be purchased and *shipped into Canada at the least possible margin. The situation which resulted, in *consequence of winter storms and the desperate tie up of transportation in the United States, made it practically impossible to move the stuff. I do not think the *Department of Agriculture should be held responsible for weather conditions over which they had absolutely no control.


William Frederic Kay: How was it that we could
ship so much bran to the United States if the railways were tied up?	[DOT]


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I would like a closer definition of the item of " mill feed " that is at the head of the return which the hon. gentleman has handed to me. I do know that since last December the exports of bran and shorts to the United States were strictly under license from the Canada Food Board,


William Frederic Kay: Not before December.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think it was in December the licenses were first issued.


William Frederic Kay: I think it was in August.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Not under the Canada Food Board. Their licenses, I think, were first issued in December. The return from which the hon. gentleman quoted was an earlier return than that which he referred
to last and which I think stated correctly the amount of bran and shorts which was permitted to leave Canada under license. However, the point is one upon which there seems to be some doubt, and I shall take means of verifying my information at the earliest possible moment, and I shall convey any information I may get to the hon. gentleman. The hon. gentleman has also complained about the difficulty the farmers had in securing bran and shorts from Canadian millers and of the prices that dealers were charging for the bran and shorts they purchased. I have just this to say, that the Canada Food Board has passed certain regulations governing the prices that shall be charged by dealers for these commodities. It is not primarily the business of the Canada Food Board to enforce these regulations. When a regulation is passed it becomes the law, and it is the. duty cf the local authorities, or any other authorities who may be charged with the enforcement of law, to see that it is carried out.


Thomas Vien: Is there still an embargo on the shipment of bran and shorts from the West eastward?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That embargo has been
removed. Reverting to the point I was discussing, if the Canada Food Board are to protect buyeTS of bran and shorts against exorbitant prices on the part of dealers, they must be supplied at least with the names of dealers who are charging these prices. IMy hon. friend made a statement that there is a reluctance on the part of farmers to supply that information for feaT that they will have difficulty in, buying from their local dealer later on. That is one of the difficulties that is inherent in the enforcement of such a law as we refer to, made and created for exceptional conditions. The position of the mills in shipping bran and shorts to customers and insisting that a flour sale shall accompany a bran and shorts sale is clearly against the regulations and instructions sent out by the Canada Food Board. I repeat that if my hon. friend Will give me the name of the mill he has made reference to, I will see that the necessary steps are taken to correct the condition of which he complains and to prevent a repetition in the future. Unless the name of the offending mill owner is given it is pretty hard to see how anything can be done. I want to assure my hon. friend that I realize-and I hope he will give me credit for my good intentions in this respect-the very great importance of seeing that those who are engaged in

our dairy industry are supplied with the feed that they require for their stock during the winter months. I hope the same conditions will not obtain next winter as did obtain during the past winter. We can reasonably expect that we shall not have [DOT]such a severe winter, and with normal transportation conditions I think there will be very little difficulty in supplying the necessary feed. If we should have another severe winter and there should be an almost complete tie-up of transportation, those are difficulties of course that are very hard to overcome.


James Alexander Robb: I want to say a word or two further before the minister gets away from this item. How does he expect to answer the complaint of the hon. member for Mis-sisquoi (Mr. Kay) as regards the millers compelling any person who buys bran and shorts to take the flour also, when his own department issues different instructions prohibiting the miller 'from shipping a straight carload of bran and shorts? These are the facts. Does the minister want the evidence?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My hon. friend is surely mistaken.


James Alexander Robb: I will give the minister the evidence and clear the matter up. Here is a letter from the Western Canada Flour Mills:


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Of what date?


James Alexander Robb: The letter is dated February 5, 1918.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think I stated a moment ago, if I might be permitted to speak again, that these definite instructions had been sent out to the mills subsequent to that date.


James Alexander Robb: Just recently, I know all about it, within the last two or three weeks after the western cattle dealers were able to send their cattle out to grass. The letter to which I have just referred contains this statement:
Re the other cars of -bran referred to we are very sorry to have to advise you that it was impossible for us to get this .past the Pood Controller in the West at the present time. He absolutely prohibits the shipment east of straight carloads of bran or shorts or even straight cars of mixed bran and shorts.
This is a statement from a reliable concern, as the minister knows well. Here is an extract from another letter dated April 23, also from the Western Canada Flour Mills:
.
As far as we can see at the present time there is no mo-re chance of this bran being shipped than there was some months ago, as no straight cars of feed are 'allowed to be shipped from any of the western mills to Eastern Canada.


Mr. SEXSMITH:: It does seem to me
that the Food Control Board is making a failure in the policy of endeavouring to control prices, because as a result of that control prices' are not going down, but getting higher. In my district as a result of the attempt on the part of the Food Control Board to fix the price of bran and shorts the millers mixed eighty per cent of barley with bran, and what was supposed to cost us from $40 to $45 a ton actually cost $60 to $65. That is what they have been doing all the time, and the Food Control Board sitting in Ottawa has been issuing orders and not seeing that they are carried out.
-Mr. VIEN:	While we are considering
the development of the dairy industry, I would draw the minister's attention to the prevailing conditions in the province of Ontario and elsewhere throughout Canada in relation to the necessary help to carry on food production. The minister has probably taken cognizance of the first report of the Committee on Agriculture, in which it is stated that in the dairying counties of Ontario there is a great demand for experienced help, not only ^ in the dairying industries, but also in the farming industry generally, And the great demand for farm help exists all over the country. The chairman of the Agricultural Committee, acting upon its instructions, wired the several Ministers of Agriculture in Halifax, Fredericton, Charlottetown, Quebec, Toronto, Winnipeg, Regina, Edmonton and Victoria, asking them to inform the Committee on Agriculture by wire of the number of men and women immediately needed on farms as much for seeding as for harvesting. He has received many telegrams which are embodied in the report to which I referred, and which I may be permitted to quote.


John Allister Currie: The report in question has been placed on the table of the House, and has been dealt with by motion. Once'that is done, it is not competent for the hon. gentleman during the same session to bring forward the document and discuss it.


Georges Henri Boivin: I have paid very special attention to what the hon. member for Lotbiniere (Mr. Vien) has been saying, keeping in view the point raised by the hon. member for Simcoe. If the report had

been laid on the table of the House and disposed of, I would have had no hesitation whatever in ruling that the point of order was well taken. But I am informed by the deputy clerk that the report in question, although laid on the table of the House, has never been discussed and concurred in.


Thomas Vien: That was my opinion, and I know the facts to be as stated by the chairman. The answers to the telegrams sent out by the Chairman of the Committee on Agriculture came abundantly from all sources. One of these telegrams came from Winnipeg. It is dated April, 1918, and is signed by J. H. Evans. This gentleman informed the Chairman of the Committee on Agriculture:
Immediate demand is for experienced farm labour. Impossible to estimate immediate needs owing to uncertainty of drain made on farm hands by conscription. Basing estimate on last year's experience require ten thousand additional help for harvest. Domestic help problematical. Tremendous demand for experienced domestics hut not for women farm help.
From Yarmouth, N.S., under date April 29, 1918, came this telegram from Mr. Cumming:
Seeding just begun. Farmers will reduce their cultivated crops in accordance with labour shortage but for maximum production there should be at least four thousand men available.
From Fredericton, N.B., Mr. J. P. Tweed-dale wired:
New Brunswick cannot spare any man who is a farmer or farm labourer, if increased production is expeoted. With these men in the country last year hundreds of tons of hay fields, of oats and potatoes, were not harvested on account of scarcity of labour. We had farmers exerting every effort and would have splendid result. New orders re conscription farmers paralyzed the whole movement and unless positive orders issued from Ottawa insuring farmers that they will not be taken *they will not produce enough to feed city populations. Large delegation farmers here yesterday, delegation going to Ottawa.
Another telegram from Mr. Marshall, Alberta, states that if there is an average harvest between six and seven hundred men will be needed.
Another telegram came from the Deputy Minister of Agriculture of the province of Saskatchewan, which reads as follows:
Your wire re labour: demand for men well met at present but new regulations Military Service Act will take from five to seven thousand men consisting of farmers, farm labourers and farmers' sons, or from every fifteen or twenty farms in Saskatchewan, as men even approximately as useful for production are not available, the effect upon our wheat production
with seeding only about half completed can he realized.


John Allister Currie: The hon. gentleman is dealing with a report on wheat production. We are now- on a dairying item. I do not think it is competent for him to continue to discuss that matter. We are getting along late at night, and want to get away.


Thomas Vien: Before you rule, Mr. Chairman, may I be allowed to say that this report deals not only with the labour required for wheat production, -but it particularly states that in the dairying counties of Ontario there is a great demand for experienced help.


John Allister Currie: The hon. gentleman should confine his discussion to the dairying industry; he should not discuss the part of the report dealing with wheat.


Thomas Vien: The dairying industry, as much as the wheat industry, is covered in the report. Not only that, but if I may be allowed, I will say that the item under discussion reads: " For the development of the dairying industries, and the improvement of transportation, sale and trade in food and other agricultural products." And it seems that the trade in agricultural products and food will be greatly hampered if the production of food is diminished.


John Allister Currie: Mr. Chairman, this is dragging that subject in by the tail. The fact is that the report has nothing to do with that at all. The hon. gentleman has read all there is about the dairying industry.


Georges Henri Boivin: Would any other hon. gentleman like to be heard on the point of order?


John Albert Sexsmith: I think the point of order raised by the hon. member for South Simcoe (Mr. Currie) is not well taken. If you are discussing the dairy industry, surely you have a right to discuss the food given to the animals. Throughout the province of Ontario just recently we are feeding flour to our hogs. That is a fact, and I want to ask the minister this: it seems to me that this food board-


John Allister Currie: Order. The hon. gentleman knows that that is not discussing the point of order.


John Albert Sexsmith: I beg your pardon, Mr. Chairman.


Georges Henri Boivin: Order. The item before the Committee for discussion is, as every one will admit, a very general item, indeed. It covers the development of the dairying

industry and the improvement, transport, sale and trade in food and other agricultural products. The scope of the discussion upon such an item is necessarily very wide, and, so far, I would hesitate about' ruling that my hon. friend from Lotbiniere is out of order. I may say that he is coming perilously near the danger line, and I would ask him to assist the Committee in disposing of the item as early as possib'e by remaining well within the limits of discussion.
Mr. VIE.N: I will surely abide by your ruling, and even by your suggestion. I refer hon. gentlemen to this first report of the Select Standing Committee on Agriculture, with which hon; members generally are not familiar. I had considerable difficulty to secure a copy of it. It is not printed or distributed, but it is most interesting. You will find other telegrams than those I have already read, from Mr. Riddell, superintendent of Trades and Labour in Ontario.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think he is in the Ontario Agriculture Department.


Thomas Vien: And another from the private secretary of the Minister of Agriculture of British Columbia. There is another from the secretary of the Department of Agriculture in Quebec. These telegrams are all to the same effect, that there is a considerable shortage of men for the farming industry all over this country. They are unanimous; these telegrams truly depict the situation at a date as late as April 29. And the Chairman of the Committee, the hon. member for Macdonald (Mr. Henders) concludes his report by saying:
The Standing Committee on Agriculture and Colonization desires to express to the Minister its opinion that his presence at its meetings would afford assistance and1 gratification to the Committee and suggests that its discussions might also be interesting and helpful to his department.
The Committee also entertains the opinion that suggestions for legislation considered worthy of the department's attention, if submitted to the Committee, would' stimulate interest in its work and offer valuable matter for assistance to the department.
And then it was moved by the hon. member for East Algoma (Mr. Nicholson), and seconded by the hon. member for Humboldt (Mr. Lang) and carried:
That it is the opinion of the Committee on Agriculture that the Minister of Militia should be requested to order (a) that actual farmers who have been called up shall be given leave of absence-


John Allister Currie: I want .to ask whether that is in order.
[The Chairman.]


Georges Henri Boivin: Will the hon. gentleman state the point of order?


John Allister Currie: The point is that the Military Service Act has already been discussed in the House, and the hon. gentleman is starting to discuss that matter.


Thomas Vien: I am not discussing that.


Georges Henri Boivin: Has the hon. member for Lotbiniere anything to say on the point of order?


Thomas Vien: Nothing, Mr. Chairman, except that I am concluding the report before I come to the discussion of the item now under consideration.


Georges Henri Boivin: In connection with the point of order just raised by the hon. member for North Simcoe, I beg to say that I will permit the reading of the report passed by the Committee on Agriculture and which has not yet been concurred in by the House. I may add that any discussion which might possibly arise out of that report relating to the Military Service Act or the Order in Council concerning the Military Service Act, I would consider to be absolutely out of order.


Thomas Vien: The concluding recommendation in the report is:
That no actual farmers be required to report until all others in the class affected by the Order in Council of 20th April, 191S, have been .put in service; such leave of absence and d*lay in reporting to be conditional upon their actual employment in farming.
I think, 'Sir, that another very important document was sent to the Government at a very late date, as late as last week, in which the conference of farmers, recently held in Ottawa, embodied its views. I understand that they have sent that report to His Excellency the Governor General and that it has been referred by him to the Privy Council.
What steps has the department taken with a view to securing for the farming industry the men who are so badly needed? The evidence of this need was given by these gentlemen who met in conference from all parts of Canada, and is set forth also in the document to which I refer, of which my hon. friend must surely have a copy. The Prime Minister told us the other day that the document was on its. way and that he expected it to- reach his office shortly.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There was a sufficient supply of farm help to attend to the seeding operations; at least, the reports show that that was the case in Western Canada. Any
disturbance of farming operations result-

ing from the recent amendments to the Military Service Act "will have to be looked after in the most effective way that can be devised. The registration that is to be made by the Canada Registration Board will afford a great deal of useful information in working this problem out.


Thomas Vien: Has'my hon. friend taken cognizance of the conclusions arrived at by the last conference of farmers held in Ottawa, as embodied in the report to which I referred a moment ago? Has any action since been taken?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The time intervening has been short. My hon. friend scarcely expects that a policy could be mapped out in so short a time.


Thomas Vien: Then my hon. friend has received the document of which I speak? He intimates that he has taken cognizance of it.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have not received it, but I was present and heard the representations made by the delegation of farmers which was here last week.


Thomas Vien: Has my hon. friend taken any steps to carry out or give effect to the conclusions embodied in the first report of the standing committee on agriculture?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Any announcement in that respect would be made by the Prime Minister.


Joseph Read: Is the Government really considering the matter?


Thomas Vien: What is the policy of the Government with reference to the farming interests concerned? Has the Government modified its views respecting the enforcement of the recent Order in Council calling even the farmers to military service?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My hon. friend can hardly expect me to answer that question. Any announcement of policy would of necessity come from the Prime Minister.


John Albert Sexsmith: The Food Control Board passed an order early in the winter fixing the price of bran and shorts and leading the farmers to believe that they or the Government were going to prevent the millers from profiteering. The millers were allowed a profit of twenty-five cents a barrel on flour and were to sell bran and shorts practically at cost. It has been brought to the attention of the department that the millers are mixing bran and shorts with barley and selling the product at $65 a ton. That should be stopped, because they are
making a greater profit now than they did before the price was fixed. Another thing. The farmers' clubs were buying carloads p.f bran, and shorts and they were compelled to take a certain percentage of flour, in each car. I have it on good authority that in some districts the farmers actually fed that flour to their hogs; they had more than they wanted. Now, another order has been issued, providing that if a farmer who lives within five miles of a village has more than 6ix weeks' supply of flour in store, he must take the surplus to the man from whom he bought it. In order to get the bran or feed, these farmers' clubs were obliged to buy more flour than they wanted and now they have it on their hands. Whom are they to- send it back to? ,


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is true that an order did issue from the Food Board a few weeks ago requiring those who had certain supplies of flour to return the surplus to dealers from whom they had purchased it. Undoubtedly that order worked a hardship on the farmers. The matter was drawn to the attention of the Food Board and and amending order has been or will be sent out in the immediate future requiring that farmers shall simply report to the dealers the stocks of flour that they have on hand. (The end in view, of course, is' to gather up as much flour as possible for shipment overseas to- meet the pressing need there until the new wheat crop goes on the market. As to the feeding of flour to the hogs, there is this peculiar position: flour, bran and shorts mixed together was the cheapest food that a farmer could feed his hogs, owing to the price of barley and oats The price of wheat was- fixed by the Board of Grain Supervisors last fall on the basis of $2.21, Fort William, while the price of oats and barley was not fixed. It was urged' on the' board that the price of oats should also be fixed, but it was rather difficult for Canada to take action in that respect unless similar action was taken by the United States. AlthougTi in some cases flour has been fed to the hogs, I think the practice has been by no means widespread.


Joseph Read: The reason why the price of oats went above the price of flour and wheat was because of the demand for seed*.	.


Mr KAY:: The minister asks me to give him the names of some millers who were forcing flour out with their cars. I name two: the Lake of the Woods Milling Company, and the Ogilvie Milling Company.


Thomas Vien: Can we expect very shortly *a definition of the Government's policy as to the supply of men for the farming industry? The minister stated that he could not tell us what change would take place or if any change would take place.
Mr. CER'ERAR: I would suggest that the hon. member direct his question to the Prime Minister at the morning sitting.


François Jean Pelletier: Suppose we take the case of a farmer who is the owner of a butter factory and who is making butter and cheese. This man is of military age-


Georges Henri Boivin: Order. The question is certainly not in order. I have given my ruling that all matters connected with the 'Military Service Act cannot be discussed here. I have perhaps allowed one or two .questions which are more or less out of order, but I must draw the line somewhere.
Progress reported.
On motion of Hon. A. K. Maclean, the (House, reverted to Routine Proceedings in order that certain motions might be made.



[Stage Direction]
Hon, Mr. Rowell (President of the Council) presented the third and final report *of the Special Committee on Pensions.
Hon. Mr. Rowell moved:
That the report of the Special Committee on Pensions, which has been presented to the House this 2'0th day of May, together with the proceedings and evidence appended thereto, be printed forthwith and that rule 74 in relation thereto be suspended.
Daniel Duncan McKenzie: When will the report be taken into consideration by the House?


Newton Wesley Rowell: At the earliest opportunity. I should think that it will be taken *up on Wednesday in view of other business being fixed for Tuesday.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I desire to accelerate on the Order Paper, Government notices of motion in reference to zinc bounties, and to providing ways and means to retire certain members of the Civil Service, in regard to which motions I gave notice this morning. With the unanimous consent of the House,
I beg to move:
That the order made this day, for consideration in Committee of the Whole to-morrow of the resolutions respecting Zinc Bounties and Civil Service Commission toe rescinded and the iMr. Kay.]
said resolutions toe considered in Committee of the Whole forthwith.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. A. K. MACLEAN (Acting Minister of Finance), the House went into Committee to consider the following proposed resolution, Mr. Boivin in the Chair:
Resolved, That it is expedient to provide that the provisions of The Zinc Bounties Act, 1916, chapter twenty-seven of the Statutes of 1916, [DOT]be renewed and continued in force until the thirty-first day of July, 1920.
Thomas Vien: Will the minister explain the resolution?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Under an Act of Parliament passed in 1916, it was provided that a bounty of two cents a pound be paid upon zinc produced in Canada, when the price fell below the standard price of zinc on the London market, which is the world market for that product. It was, however, provided in that Act that no bounty should be paid during the war, and that the amount, when payable, should not exceed 1400,000. In 1915, after the beginning of the war, it was considered very desirable in the ' national interest that Canada
1 a.m. produce a high-grade zinc. It was at that time not produced in Canada, and I hardly think in the United States, and it -was particularly desirable for use in munition works. The Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company of British Columbia was induced by the Shell Committee, and later on by the Imperial Munitions Board, to incur very heavy expenditures on capital account in erecting a plant to produce this high-grade zinc, and altogether they spent $2,500,000. It was represented t-o them that they would receive from the British Government and from some of the other Allied powers orders continuously during the war, so as to enable them to amortize the expenditures they had made in erecting their plant in order to produce this high-grade zinc. They did produce a very considerable quantity, about 30,000 tons altogether, for which they received 15 cents per pound. The price *previous to that, in the earlier part of the war, was 40 cents per pound, and Canada and Great Britain have had the advantage of that reduced price brought about by the entrance of the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company into the market. By reason of Russia's withdrawal from the war and by reason of the entry of the United

States into the war, all orders for high-grade zinc will cease on the 30th day of June in .this year.
When the Consolidated Smelting Company embarked upon the enterprise of producing high-grade zinc, the Government of the day recognized it was in the national interest to pay a bounty under certain conditions, and now that the company is unable to sell its product to any of the countries of the world now engaged in the war, they claim that this assistance should be rendered to them now and for two years to come. The total amount to he paid as bounties will not exceed $400,000, the amount stated in the Bill. Seventy-five per cent of the zinc consumed in Canada is what is known as low-grade zinc; that is not the technical term, but the metal is low grade. It is, however, just as useful to the greater (part of the trade as the high-grade zinc, and generally sells at seven cents per pound. The Consolidated Mining & Smelting Company anticipate that gradually they will be able to reduce their costs of the high-grade ore from 9 cents, which is the cost at the present time, to 7 cents. If they reduce it to 8 cents we shall only have a bounty of one cent a pound to pay, representing the difference between the present London standard price and the price they get on this side of the water. The main purpose of the resolution and of the Bill will be to accelerate the time within which they shall receive payment of this bounty. Upon the second reading of the Bill I shall be pleased to give any further information that is desired.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: What has been paid already?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Nothing whatever.


Mr. FIELDING:: There is no enlargement of the original appropriation?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: No.


Thomas Vien: Is it the high-grade or the low-grade zinc that costs 9 cents a pound?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The high-grade zinc that is now produced electrolitically by the Consolidated Mining & Smelting Company. They have been able, by the erection of a modern system of production, to reduce their costs from 40 cents to 9 cents.


Thomas Vien: How is it that if it costs 9 cents a pound to produce, it sells for 7 cents a pound?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: That is the low-grade metal, which is produced much more
cheaply and which is not so desirable for munitions purposes


Thomas Vien: The higher grade zinc must sell for a higher price.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: There is no market for it at the present time except the Canadian market, and the Canadian market largely consumes the low-grade metal.


Thomas Vien: Could we not sell it to the United States?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: There is no demand for it in the United States as they are producing the ore in very large quantities themselves, and largely by virtue of the financial credits being given by Great Britain to the United States, Great Britain is obtaining her requirements from the United States. It was expected that large contracts would be received from Russia, but now that she has withdrawn from the war the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company do not anticipate any further trade with her.


Thomas Vien: A further study of the subject may change my opinion, but it appears to me that if there is such a small market for this product it is scarcely a commendable policy to spend $409,000 to encourage such an industry. We might sipend the money on something more productive.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: My hon. friend must remember that it was of vital importance to national interests at the time this industry was started to produce a high-grade zinc in Canada. The industry was started on the request in the first instance of the Shell Committee, and upon request later made by the British Government. It was then the Canadian Government intervened,, and sought to extend aid to the company in producing this high-grade zinc. Subsequently an Act of Parliament was passed providing for this assistance, so we are almost in honour bound to stand by the contract made with this company. The maximum to be paid will ibe $400,000, but I hope the amount will not meet that figure.


Joseph Read: I understand the
promoters of this Bill are monopolists, and while I am not going to oppose this measure to-night I give notice to the minister that when the Bill comes up for second reading we shall have to investigate. I understand that the ordinary mine owners of British

Columbia, while they may not be opposed to this and probably will benefit by it to a certain extent, want other considerations besides a bounty on zinc and lead. I would draw the minister's attention to the fact that the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company and the Trail Smelter are practically one and the same thing and that the Consolidated produces practically all the ore in the East Kootenay district. The yearly figures are as follows: Paradise, 1,089 tons; Sulliv.an (zinc), (this is the Consolidated), 30,579 tons; Daly Burton, 34 tons; Hidden Treasure, 2 tons; St. Eugene, 267 tons; Providence, 30 tons; Sullivan, 229 tons; St. Eugene, 214 tons. So the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company practically own the whole shooting match as far as East Kootenay is concerned, and you might say the same thing of the whole mining industry of British 'Columbia with the exception of Rossland. The Miners' Association have been asking the Government for a duty of five per cent on zinc and lead coming in from the United States, and also for a Royal Commission to investigate the whole question of the Trail Smelter and the mining industries of that section of British Columbia. I would ask the minister to consult with his colleagues and see if he cannot agree when the Bill comes up for second reading to give the ordinary miners, the proletariat, a Royal 'Commission to investigate this whole question to find out whether it is not one giant monopoly which is sucking the blood of the common people of British 'Columbia. Unfortunately, the people of British Columbia are not represented to-day in this House by a single Liberal member, and they take their political life in their hands to go against this hydra-headed monster of monopoly.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in.
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN thereupon moved to introduce Bill No. 109, to provide for the payment of bounties on zinc produced and zinc ores mined in Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee on the following proposed resolution.
That it is expedient to provide that the Civil Service Commission shall forthwith prepare and submit to the Governor in Council for approval the names of all officers, clerks and employees 
who, owing to advanced age, failing health, or lack of experience or ability, or other cause, are not capable of rendering or do not render efficient service to the State, and should, therefore, be retired from the public service; stating the conditions under which each such officer, clerk or employee should be retired, including the pecuniary provision, if any, that should, in the opinion of (the Commission, be made for any such officer, clerk or employee, and in each case the date recommenced for his retirement; and for the pecuniary provision to be made for any such officer, clerk or (employee, and for the determination of the amount to be paid, the deductions therefrom and the method by which the amount of such deductions shall be paid; and that upon approval by the Governor in Council of the recommendations of the Commission, such officer, clerk or employee shall be retired upon the date fixed and conditions specified, and any moneys required for such pecuniary provisions may be paid out of any unappropriated moneys in the Consolidated Revenue Fund of 'Canada.-'Hon. A. K. Maclean, Mr. Boivin in the chair.
Hon.. Mr. FIELDING: It is too late to die-cuss the resolution, but when it comes up at a later time I would be glad if the minister would give us some further information. I do not know whether ot not the House realizes that under this resolution we will 'be establishing a superannuation system. Years ago, not very wisely-I think it was one of the mistakes of our own Government-the superannuation system was practically abolished. Here we aTe going to re-establish it, not by a direct Act of Parliament, but we are going to leave it to the Governor in Council. The reasons may be very strong, and I am not opposing it, but I am only asking the House to consider what it means', because Parliament ought to have a clear 'conception of the very large order which the Government" is receiving in this form.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in.
Hon. A. K. MAOLEAN moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 110, respecting Aged and Infirm members of the public service.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.
On the motion of Hon. A. K. Maclean for the adjournment of the House:
Rodolphe Lemieux: What business will be taken up tomorrow?


Mr.  A. K. MAOLEAN@: Supply.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 1.20 a.in., Tuesday.

Tuesday, May 21, 1918.