1918-04-15

[Stage Direction]
Orders in Council under the Military Voters' Act, 1917, and the War-time Elections Act.-Hon. Mr. Doherty.
Report of the Royal Commission appointed to inquire into and report upon the Pilotage System and its administration at the port of Halifax.-Hon. Mr. Ballantyne.

Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: I have examined the special report of the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery in respect to the election for the electoral district of the Yukon Territory, and I have spoken concerning it with the jight hon. gentleman who leads the Opposition. It seems the proper course to refer the returns to the Select Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections. I, therefore, move:
That the Special Return of the General Returning Officer to the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery for Canada concerning the election of a candidate to serve in the House of Commons for the Yukon Territory be referred to the Select Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections with power and authority to consider the same and the several documents therein alluded to and to report their conclusion and determination thereon to this House.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Robert Laird Borden: Having regard to the gravity of
the conditions which are confronting the Allied nations at the present time, and with the view of informing hon. members of this House in a confidential way as to certain matters upon which it is advisable that they should be informed, and as to which confidential information in regard to military exigencies could not properly be given in an ordinary session of the House, I have conferred with the right hon. gentleman who leads the Opposition as to the holding of ia secret session of this House. The conclusion I have reached in conjunc-

tion with my colleagues is that such a session should he held in the immediate future. It will he possible when that session is held, to explain much more in detail the reasons on account of which I think it is desirable. I therefore, move:
Resolved that the sitting of Wednesday next, the seventeenth day of April, instant, shall he a secret session until the House shall then otherwise order, and that all strangers be ordered to withdraw during such secret session ;
Provided however, that this Order shall not affect the privilege enjoyed by members of the Senate of being present at Debates in this House.
Resolved further that a message be sent to the Senate acquainting their Honours with the terms of this Resolution.
Under ordinary conditions, it is most unusual that a secret session of either House of Parliament should be held. However, during the past two years secret sessions of the British Parliament have been held on several occasions. There were two in the spring of 1916. There were two, I think, in the spring of 1917, one of which was held about the time my colleagues and I were leaving England. There was a secret session held by the British House of Commons in the month of December last and another in January. It seems desirable that under existing conditions the same course should be followed here on this occasion.


Rt. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: The Prime Minister, as he stated, did me the honour of consulting me last Saturday 'as to the advisability of holding a secret session of this House. The Government must, of course, take the responsibility in regard to a matter of this kind as they are in the possession of information of which the public is not aware, and it is fotr them to decide as to the advisability of conferring with Parliament in regard to it. It is also for them to decide whether, as a result of that, it will be possible to give the information to the public. But of course, all this is upon the responsibility of the Government, who have knowledge of which the public is ignorant, and which they consider the public should not have, at all events, at the present stage. Under such circumstances there can be no objection to the course the Government have decided to take. I can add to what has been said by my right hon. friend that not only has the British Parliament had secret sessions, but the French Parliament has had secret sessions on one or two occasions.


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Motion agreed to.


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On motions being called:
Right Hon.   S@: 

THE RAILWAY BELT ACT AMENDMENT.

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On motion of Hon. Arthur Meighen (Minister of the Interior), Bill No. 54, to amend the Railway Belt Act was introduced and read the first time.

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On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. F. B. CARVELL (Minister of Public Works) :: I desire to call the attention of the House to the fact that work has been recommenced on the new parliament building, and I would consider it a very great pleasure if the members of the House would take an early opportunity of visiting the premises for the purpose of acquainting themselves with the general layout and making any suggestions which to them may seem proper with a view to expediting completion, and which might be acted upon by the committee having charge of the reconstruction. I regret to say that it does not look as though the building would be completed for the next session of Parliament, unless very radical changes are made in the present method of construction. If it meets with the convenience of hon. members I would suggest that either to-morrow ot on Wednesday, between the hours of 1.30 and 3 o'clock, I shall be on the premises with as many of the officials as possible in order to conduct hon. members over the building and explain the general layout and proposed arrangements. I also extend this invitation to the press. I think that an hour, or an hour and one-half, could be very profitably spent and might result in speeding up the work, to the advantage of the country at large. I will leave the matter of the date and hour open, awaiting suggestions from hon. friends on either side of the House, but I repeat that either tomorrow or Wednesday, from 1.30 to 3, would suit me admirably.


Wilfrid Laurier: May I take this opportunity of asking my hon. friend whether it be true that the Government have decided to erect a house on the cliff, between the cliff and the present building, for a lodgement for the Speaker?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The committee, who are really the only ones exercising any jurisdiction in the matter, have decided they will not provide accommodation for the Speaker within the walls of the new building, but no further decision has been arrived at.


Wilfrid Laurier: I am sorry
that has been decided thus far. For the convenience of tjio Speaker himself, I think he had better be lodged in the building, as was done in the old building and as is the custom in Great Britain to-djay. If it is decided to erect a separate building for this purpose between the present building and the cliff, I think it would be most offensive to the eye. There is not enough space between the cliff and the present building for another building; and far from enhancing the beauty of the surroundings it would have the contrary effect'.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There has been no decision to erect a building on the cliff. Per-ihaps hon. members will be in a better position to discuss these matters after they have examined the building carefully.
THE QUEBEC DISTURBANCES; ARMAND LAVERGNE.



STATEMENT 'BY THE MINISTER OP JUSTICE.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:.
Hon. C. J. DOHERTY (Minister of Justice) r I desire to answer a question which was put on Friday last by the hon. member for Westmorland (Mr. Copp). I was nqt present in the House when the question was put, but on the Orders of the Day the hon. member for Westmorland read what purported to be a report of some testimony given by Mr. Arruand Lavergne at the coroner's inquest in Quebec, as follows:
They then asked him to go and address the crowd, and as he had previously received the offer to act as chief keeper of records of the M.S.A., in Ottawa, which he had refused.
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The hon. gentleman's question was whether Colonel Lavergne ever offered to act as chief keeper of records of the Military Service Act in Ottawa. I say in answer that there is no such office as chief keeper of records of the Military Service Act in Ottawa. I am assured by Colonel Machin of the Military IService Branch 'that there never was any offer whatsoever made of this non-existing position to 'Colonel Lavergne, nor, so far as he or any of his officers know, did Colonel Machin ever offer to fill that non-existing position. If Mr. Lavergne's testimony is correctly reported, it would appear to be an instance of the over-activity of, a too vivid imaginaton.


Robert Laird Borden: There is a
motion on 'Government orders which is somewhat urgent. It appears at page 22 of the Orders of the Day. The motion is very largely of a formal character, but it has to be made within thirty days after the opening of Parliament. In order that there may be no question as to the matter having been taken up within the limitation by law, I beg to move that the House proceed to Government notices of motion.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.	-
Hon. A. K. MACLEAN (Acting Minister of Finance) moved:: That the proclamation of the Governor in Council published on the 20th February, 1918, in the form following, be approved :- Devonshire [L.S.]
Canada.
* George the Fifth, by the Grace of God, of the
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland
and of the British Dominions beyond the
Seas, King, Defender of the Faith, Emperor of
India.
To all to whom these presents shall come, or whom the same may in anywise concern,

Greeting r
A Proclamation.
E. L. Newcombe,
Deputy Minister of Justice, Canada.
Whereas in and by section 4 of the Act of Parliament of Canada, passed in the fourth and fifth years of ' Our Reign, and intituled: "An Act to conserve the Commercial and Financial Interests of Canada," it is provided among other things that in case of war, real or apprehended, and in case of any real or apprehended financial crisis. Our Governor in Council may, by Proclamation published in the Canada Gazette, authorize the several chartered banks to issue excess circulation from and including the first day of March in any year to and including the last day of August next ensuing, or during any

part of such period, to amounts not exceeding fifteen per cent of the combined unimpaired capital and rest or reserved fund of their respective banks, as stated in their respective statutory monthly returns to the Minister of Finance of Canada, for the month immediately preceding that in which the additional amount is issued,- Now Know Ye that by and with the advice of Our Privy Council for Canada We do by these presents proclaim and direct that the several chartered banks be authorized to issue excess circulation as in the said Act defined from and including the first day of March, 1918, to and including the last day of August, 1918.
Of all which Our loving subjects and all others whom these presents may concern, are hereby required to take notice and to govern themselves accordingly.
In Testimony Wihereof, We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent, and the Great Seal of Canada to be hereunto affixed. Witness: Our Right Trusty and Right Entirely Beloved Cousin and Counsellor, Victor Christian William, Duke of Devonshire, Marquess of Hartington, Earl of Devonshire, Earl of Burlington, Baron Cavendish of Hardwicke, Baron Cavendish of Keighley, Knight of Our Most Noble Order of the Garter ; One of Our Most Honourable Privy Council; Knight Grand Cross of Our Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George; Knight Grand Cross of Our Royal Victorian Order; Gorvernor General and Commander in Chief of Our Dominion of Canada.
At Our Government House, in Our City of Ottawa, this Twentieth day of February, in the year of Our Lord one thousand nine hundred and eighteen, and in the eighth year of Our Reign.
By command,
Thomas Mulvey, Under-Secretary of State.
He said: Hon. gentlemen will remember that under the Bank Act banks are authorized at certain periods of the year to exceed their normal bank circulation, particularly during the period of harvesting crops in Canada. Ordinarily their note circulation is confined to their unimpaired paid-up capital, the amount of current gold accounts, and Dominion notes which they hold in the central gold reserve, which is a banking reserve. From the 1st 'September to 28th February they are permitted by the Act to issue excess circulation not exceeding 15 per cent of their paid-up capital, rest and reserve fund. Under this power the/ are obliged to pay to the Government at the rate of 5 per cent interest for such excess circulation. Section 4 of the Finance Act of 1J14 provides that the Governor in Council be further authorized to permit this excess circulation by the banks throughout the whole year; not only from the 1st of September to the let of March,~but from the let of March until the last day of August. Section 4 of the Finance Act reads :
The Governor in Council may by proclamation published in the Canada Gazette:-

t739
(c) authorize the several chartered banks to issue excess circulation, from and including the first day of March in any year, to and including the last day of August next ensuing, or during any part of such period, to amounts not exceeding fifteen per cent of the combined unimpaired capital and rest or reserve fund of the respective banks, as stated in their respective statutory montly returns to the Minister for the month immediately preceding that in which the additional amount is issued ;
The Finance Act further provides that this authority for excess circulation during the entire year, or during the addition. 1 period of six months.; (becomes effective 'by proclamation, and it always provides that the proclamation shall continue in force for not more than thirty days after the beginning of the next session of parliament, unless it has been approved by resolution passed by both houses of Parliament. Parliament opened on the 18th of iMarch, and consequently this proclamation must receive the approval of this House by resolution to-day, or possibly to-morrow. Therefore, it is, to keep perfectly within the statutory requirement, that I ask Parliament to approve of this resolution. No similar resolution was passed last year or the year before, for the reason that the proclamation issued while Parliament was in session, and the Justice Department advised the Department of Finance that the approval of Parliament was not necessary. I may say that the banks generally have exercised the powers granted under this proclamation. During the past year a total interest of $109,533.06 has been collected from the banks on account of excess note circulation. All of the chartered banks have availed themselves of the privilege given them under this provision of the Finance Act. I trust, therefore, that Parliament will be pleased to approve of the resolution. II might further say that on Friday last the 'Senate passed a resolution of approval.
'Sir WILFRID LAURIER: The House would be interested in knowing whether or not the banks all require this extension of power. Has a petition to this effect been presented to the Government, or has there been a resolution by the boards of directors of the banks?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The very fact that the banks have all exercised the privilege granted by the Finance Act clearly shows that they desire the privilege, and the proclamation was made upon the presentation of the banks.


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes, that may be so, but, since Parliament has to review the proclamation, in the nature of things
47*
Parliament should be informed in the same way as the Government was informed. I am prepared to believe that the banks have asked for it; therefore, I see no serious objection.


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Motion agreed to.
On the motion of Hon. J. D. Reid the House returned to the "Orders of the Day."


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Bill No. 9, respecting Fraser Lumber Company, Limited, and Fraser Companies, Limited.-Mr. Elkin.
Bill No. 22, respecting The Canadian Society of Civil Engineers and to change its name to "The Engineering Institute of Canada."-Sir Herbert Ames.
Bill No. 8, respecting The Cosmos Cotton Company.-Mr. Spinney.

[Stage Direction]
House in committee on Bill No. 29 respecting a patent of O.G.C.L.J. Over-beck.-Mr. Fripp. Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
On Section 2:
Mr. CUERIE:: What is this Bill about? I see it is one of those German patents, and I was wondering whether it was some patent in connection with munitions and whether a German firm wants to get in on it. Have you the memorandum, Mr. Chairman, which is issued on each of these Bill, .stating whart the object is?


Mr. RICHARDSON:: The man who has applied for this legislation is a British sub ject, although he may have a German name. He has a patent on a process to dealcoholize beer, take away the kick and leave the flavour. There was no strenuous opposition in the Committee on Private Bills, but owing to the current of the war he seems to have lost his rights, and he merely asks to be reinstated. He wants to be able to furnish the world with beer without the kick, and the committee felt unanimously that he ought to have that privilege.,
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.



QUESTIONS.

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(Questions answered orally are indicated by asterisks.)

Mr. ARCHAMBAULT:: 1.	How many writs of Habeas Corpus have been taken out to date, in the military district

of Montreal, towards securing 'the freedom of conscripted men?
2-. Is the Government aware that in every case where writs of Habeas Corpus were taken out said writs were maintained by the Montreal tribunals, the military authorities admitting in each case that they had' no right to arrest the said conscripted men?
3.	Is the Government aware that the authorities arrested men who were in possession of exemption certificates; that, in spite of protests, they were brought to barracks and not permitted to communicate with counsel?


Hon. Mr. DOHERTY:: 1.	Eighteen.
2.	No. Three have been withdrawn, twelve maintained, and three still pending.
3.	No. While some had papers in their possession, there were doubts that they were the rightful owners.


BUILDINGS IN OTTAWA LEASED BY GOVERNMENT.
Mr. PAPINEAU:: 1.	How many buildings or parts of buildings under -lease by the Government, in the City of Ottawa, on the first day of February, 1915, have been vacated or the leases cancelled?
2.	Who are the owners of said buildings?
3.	Where are the said buildings situated1?
4.	What rent per annum was paid for each of them?


Hon. Mr. BURRELL:: 1.	Militia and Defence, 2; Public Works,
11. J
2.	Militia and Defence, J. C. Brennan, and the Ottawa Ladies' College-. Pu-blic Works,
H.	N. Bate & Son, Ltd., Thoe. Fleming, J. P. Laurin, Molsons Bank, Dr. Frederick McKinnon., W. H. Martin & Co., A. K. Mills & Son, J. L. Rochester et al, Slater Estate, Edward Desmereaux and J. B. Duford and W. G. Gharleeon.
- 3. Militia and Defence: 203 Queen street and Albert street. Public Works: Building *at 10-12 Albert street; brick building, 347 Sparks s-treet; brick building, 95 George street; premises two stories, 64-66 George street; house, 72 Elgin street; basement of building, 174-176-178 Wellington street; Mills building, 188 Slater street; second, third floors and part of basement of 124-126-128 Queen street; Lot No. 11, south side of Wellington street; two top flats of building, 109 Rideau street; firs-t -and second floors of building, 113 Rideau street, with shed in rear.
4.	Militia -and. Defence: $3,000 per annum -and $6,000 per annum. Public Works: Building at 10-12 Albert street, $1,600 per *annum; brick building, 347 Sparks street, $1,080 per annum; brick building, 95 George street, $1,200 per annum; premises, two stories, 64-66 George street, $1,800 per annum; house, 72 Elgin street, $780 per

annum; basement of building, 174-176-178 Wellington street, $900 per annum; Mills building, 188 -Slater street, $573.30 per annum; second, third floors and part of basement of 124-126-128 Queen street, $6,200 *per annum-; Lot No. 11, south side of Wellington street, $360 per annum; two top flats of building, 109 Rideau street, $1,677 per annum; first and second floors of building, 113 Rideau street, with shed in rear, $7,053.60 per annum.


PRESENTATION OF AEROPLANES TO BRITISH GOVERNMENT.
*Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1.	Is it the intention of the Government to present a squadron of aeroplanes, as a unit in the flying corps, to the British Government?
2.	H-as any correspondence been exchanged between the Government and the Canadian Aviation Fund, on this subject?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: Some interviews have taken place in reference to the subject matter mentioned in the question of the hon. member, and further information will be given at a proper time a little later. PURCHASE OF HAY IN LEVIS COUNTY.


Mr. BOURASSA:: 1.	From whom did- the Government purchase hay in the County of Levis?
2.	When was said hay purchased?
3.	What quantity of hay was purchased, and at what price?


Hon. Mr. BURRELL:: 1.	No information.
2 and 3. Answered by No. 1.


CASE'S BEFORE LOCAL APPEAL TRIBUNALS.
[Stage Direction]
-Mr. ARCHAMBAULT:
1.	Has an Order in Council been passed recently prohibiting the rehearing of cases before the local Appeal Tribunals in connection with the Military Service Act, 1917?
2.	If so, at what date?
3.	Will the said Order in Council be produced?
*Mr. DOHERTY:: 1.	Yes.
2.	iMarch 2nd, 1918.
3.	Yes, if not already produced.


CAPTAIN SAUCIER-ENGINEERS' TRAINING DEPOT OFFICERS.
Mr. AROHAMBAULT:: X. Is Major T. C. Keefer a member of the Commission which i-s at present investigating the matter of Captain Saucier, at Montreal, the same Major T. C. Keefer who is attached to the Engineers' Training Depot at St. Johns, Province of Quebec?
2.	What were the salaries, on 17th December, 1917, of the following officers of the Engineers' Training Depot, at St. Johns, Province of Quebec: Col. W. W. Melville, Major T. C. Keefer, Capt. R. W. Powell, Capt. J. P. Campbell, Capt.

L. Pettigrew, Lt. R. R. Knight, Lt. D. B. Armstrong, Lt. A. D. Adney, Lt. R. M. Trow, Lt. H. J, Young, Lt. H. S. Phillips, Lt. J. V. Cul-bert, Lt. H. Blackadder, Lt. Paul Bourget, Lt. J. C. Aimer, Lt. H. P. Duthie?
3.	Are the said officers at present attached to the St. Johns Training Depot, and are they being paid the same salary which they received on the 17th December, 1917?
Major-General MEWBURN:
1.	Yes.
2.	The pay and allowances-of the respective ranks held by these officers in the Canadian Expeditionary Force.
3.	The following officers are at present on the strength of the Engineer Training Depot at St. Johns, P.Q., at the same rates of ,pay:-Lt.-Colonel W. W. Melville, Major T. C. Keefer, Capt. R. W. Powell, M.C., Capt. J, P. Campbell, Capt. L. Pettigrew, Lieut. R. R. Knight, Lieut. D. B. Armstrong, Lieut. E. T. Adney, Lieut. R. M. Trow, Lieut. H. S. Phillips.
The following officers have left for overseas since December, 17th, 1917:-Lieut. H. G. Young, Lieut. J. V. Culbert, Lieut. H. Blackadder, Lieut. P. Bourget, Lieut. H. P. Duthie.
The following officer was struck off the strength on January 22nd, 1918:-Lieut. J. C. Armer.


BANKS' DEPOSIT WITH CENTRAL GOLD RESERVE,
Mr. TRAHAN:: 1.	Does the sum of $120,566,245, held as gold reserve by the Receiver General, on the 1st March, 1918, include the amount deposited with the Central Gold Reserve by the banks as a guarantee for their circulation?
2.	If so, what is the amount so deposited by the said banks?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: 1 and 2. No.
TREASURY BONDS.	.


Mr. TRAHAN:: 1.	How many treasury bonds have been issued by the Government since the beginning of the war, to what amount, and at what rate?
2.	How many treasury bonds have been paid by the Government since the beginning of the war, and to what amount?
3.	How many of treasury bonds thus issued by the Government will fall due during the fiscal year of 1918-1919, and what is the sum represented by the said bonds?
>Hon. A. K. MACLEAN:
1.	Treasury Bills to the amount of $324,955,000 at 5 to 51 per cent.
2.	$249,500,000.
3.	$1,240,000.


DUE DATES OP LOANS.
Mr. TRAHAN:: 1.	How many short term loans and long term loans, irrespective of their character, will fall due during the fiscal year of 19181919?
2.	What is the amount of each of these loans and the date of maturity in each case?
3.	How does the Government intend to provide for the reimbursement of these loans upon maturity of same?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: 1 and 2. Dominion of Canada Treasury bills to the amount of $1,240,000, a-s follows: May 7, 1918, $50,000; July 2, 1918, $90,000; July 3, 1918, $750,000; July 7. 1918, $100,000; July 19 1918, $250,000.
3.	Out of Consolidated Revenue Fund.


SPECIE.
Mr. TRAHAN:: 1.	What was the amount of the specie at the date of the outbreak of the war?
2.	How much specie has been exported1 by the Government from the beginning of the war to March 31, 1918?


Hon. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1.	July 31, 1914, held by the Government of Canada, $97,136,426.88.
2.	None.


BANKS' SUBSCRIPTIONS TO WAR LOANS.
Mr. TRAHAN:: How much have the banks subscribed and paid in up to date to the war loans?
Hon,. A. K. MACLEAN:
The terms of this question are too indefinite to permit of answer.


USE OP DEPOSITS FOR WAR PURPOSES.
Mr. TRAHAN:: 1.	Has the Government used, towards the expenses of the war, funds from Postal Savings Banks, Insurance Deposits or other sums deposited with them for any purpose?
2.	If so, what is the amount in each instance ?
3.	If not, is it the intention of the Government to do so?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: 1,	2 and 3. Under the Audit Act all public moneys and revenues form one consolidated revenue fund and expenditures are net earmarked against any source of revenue.


PROVINCIAL APPLICATIONS FOR FEDERAL ADVANCES.,
Mr. TRAHAN:: 1.	Have any other provinces 'besides the Provinces of Ontario and Saskatchewan applied to the Government for money advances?
2.	If so, which are those provinces?
3.	How has the Government dealt with these applications for money advances?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: 1,	2 and 3. No.


FEDERAL LOAN TO ONTARIO.
Mr. TRAHAN :: 1.	Has the Federal Government lent or advanced the sum of $2,000,0(10 to the Government of the Province of Ontario? If so, under what conditions?
2.	For what purposes did the Ontario Government obtain said loan from the Federal Government?
3.	What rate of interest does the Ontario Government pay on said loan, and when is it payable?
4.	Is there a sinking fund provided therefor?


Hon. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1.	Yes.
2.	To meet maturing obligations.
3.	Six and one-half per cent, payable half yearly. The loan is for a term of five years, or at the option of the province the principal may .be paid in full at any time prior to the said date of maturity with accrued interest.
4.	No information.


PUBLIC SERVANTS AND WAR BONDS.
Mr. TRAHAN:: 1.	Has the Government compelled members of the Public Service to purchase bonds in connection with War Loans?
2.	If so, in what manner, and for what reason?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: 1 and 2. No.


GOVERNMENT DEPOSITS IN BANKS.
Mr. TRAHAN:: 1.	What was the amount of Government deposits in the banks, as current account, on the 31st March 1918?
2.	Was the Government's account, in the banks, overdrawn during the fiscal year 19171918?
3.	If so, in which banks, at what dates, and for what amount?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Name of Bank,
Bank of Montreal	
Bank of B. N. America	
La Caisse d'Economie de Quebec.. . . Montreal City & District Savings Bank
Canadian Bank of Commerce	
Dominion Bank	
Bank of Hamilton	
La Banque D'Hochelaga	
Home Bank of Canada	
Imperial Bank of Canada	
Merchants Bank of Canada	
Molsons Bank	
La Banque Nationale	
Nor. Crown Bank	
Bank of Nova Scotia	
Bank of Ottawa	
La Banque Provinciale	
Royal Bank of Canada	
Standard Bank	
Sterling Bank	
Bank of Toronto	
Union Bank of Canada	
Weyburn Security Bank	
Bank of Montreal, New York	
Rec. Gen.	Acct.	War Loan A.'	cct$ 730,524	57	$6,346,376	0150,628	17	1,557,794	69140,000	00	93,341	86	655,311	103,548,874	04	5,847,442	53124,467	17	3,219,147	5676,077	31	2,394,959	3496,243	39	472,244	5520,394	78	520,126	02233,117	25	2,293,860	80423,846	57	1,480,264	6861,508	22	1,581,377	5228,574	31	109,541	6027,576	25	5^9,634	95387,614	18	2,412,626	2967,925	21	1,280,449	7038,496	48	341,482	68307,103	32	5,577,035	0746,372	93	1,173.403	2725,721	33	342,307	2969,531	23	2,158,655	02135,442	15	2,218,522	6825,432	58	30,287	898,309,352	25
2 and 3. No.


FEDERAL LOAN TO SASKATCHEWAN.
Mr. TRAHAN:: 1.	Has a sum of two millions five hundred thousand dollars been loaned or advanced by this Government to the Province of Saskatchewan? If so, on what terms?
2.	What reasons did the Government , of Saskatchewan give when calling upon the Dominion Government for this advance?
3.	What rate of interest is being paid on this loan, and when is the latter repayable?
4.	Has a sinking fund been provided for?


Hon. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1.	Yes, February 1, 1918.
2.	Loan to be utilized for the retirement of five per cent Debentures maturing February 1, 1918.

3.	Six and one-half per cent payable halfyearly. The Roan is for a term of five years, or at the option of the Province' the principal may be paid in part or whole prior to the said date of maturity with accrued interest.
4.	No information.


RIGAUD-ST. REDDMPTBUR MAIL.
Mr. BOYER:: 1.	What are the names of those who have tendered for the transportation of the mail between Rigaud and St. RSdempteur?
2.	What was the amount of each tender?
3.	To whom has the contract been awarded, and what is the amount of the contract?
4.	How long has said contract to run?


Mr. DOHERTY:: 1 and 2. Gaston Guerin, Montreal, $313;
J.	Hector Chevrier, Rigaud, $350; Arthur Quesnel, Rigaud, $420; Odilon Brule, Rigaud, $490; Joseph Chevrier, Rigaud, $500.
3.	Gaston Guerin, the lowest tenderer, having urged his inability 'to perform the service owing to his residence in Montreal, the contract was awarded to J. Hector Chevrier, whose tender was the next lowest received.
4.	To 30th September, 1921.


LENNOXVILLE EXPERIMENTAL FARM.
Mr. HUNT:: 1.	Who is in charge of the Experimental Farm at Lermoxville, Quebec?
2.	What salary does he receive?
3.	Does he do other work for the Government and receive a salary for the same? * **
Hon. Mr. CiRERAR:
1.	J. A. McClary.
2.	$2,000 per annum.
3.	No.


DRILL HALL AT BURY, QUE.
Mr. HUNT:: 1.	Has the Government erected, a Drill Hall at Bury, Quebec?
2.	If so, who was the contractor?
3.	What was the contract (price?
4.	What amount was paid for extras?
Major-General MEWBURN:
5.	How much did1 it cost to heat, light and maintain, each year?
6.	What is the building used for?
7.	Is it the intention of the Government to keep this building in repair, heat-and light, each year?
Major-General MEWBURN:
1.	Yes.
2.	A. Cromwell, of Cookshire, Que.
3.	$11,750, construction of building; $1,100, fittings.
4.	$1,094.20.
5.	1915, light, $115.36; heat, $189.40; water,
$25; total $329.76. 1916, light, $10.15; heat, $234.50; water, $25; engineer's services, $37.60; total $307.25.	1917, light,- $10.74;
heat, $247.75; water, $25; engineer's services, $15.80; total, $299.29-$936.30.
6.	Used) as regimental store tor the 7th Hussars.
7.	Yes, Government-owned.


COMMISSIONED OFFICERS AT QUEBEC.
Mr. POWER:: 
DETENTION CAIMP AT SPIRIT TAKE.
Mr. FAFARD:: 1.	Is the Detention Camp at Spirit Lake, in the Abitibi District, being used at present?
2.	If so, for what purpose?
3.	How much money was spent by the Government for the organization of same?
4.	Has the Government derived any benefit from the work being carried on there by the interned prisoners ?


Hon. Mr. DOHERTY:: 1.	Yes!
2.	As an experimental farm.
3.	$32,500.
4.	Yes, about 800 acres of land cleared for an experimental farm and buildings in connection *with same, and $15,946 received from sale of pulpwood.


PURCHASE OF SHIPS' PLATES IN UNITED STATES.
Mr. KENNEDY:: 1.	What price per 100 pounds has the Government agreed to pay for the 80,000 tons of ships' plates purchased in the United States for use in building ships in Canada?


Hon. Mr. BALLANTYNE:: 1. Three dollars and1 twenty-five cents ($3.25) per hundred pounds, base, f.o.b. mills.


PURCHASE OF LAND AT STE. ANNE DE DA PERADE.
Mr. DESAULNIERS:: 1.	Has the Government bought a piece of land at Ste. Anne de la Perade for the construction of a beacon?
2.	If so, in what year, and at what price?
3.	Has the beacon been constructed? If not, why?


Hon. Mr. BALLANTYNE:: 1.	Yes.
2.	In 1915, for $50.
3.	No, because the light is not urgently required, and all construction, except such as is absolutely necessary, has been postponed in consequence of the necessity of cutting down appropriations.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS.

Mr. DEMERS:: 1.	What are the names of the physicians composing the different Military Medical Boards in the province of Ontario under the operation of the Military Service Act, 1947?
2.	WThat are the names of the physicians composing the different Military Medical Boards in the province of Quebec under the operation of the Military Service Act, 1917?


Mr. BOYER:: 1. What are the sums of money expended on repairs of wharf at lie Perrot Sud, since 1911?
2*. What are the names of those who have been employed on said works, and the amount of money which has been paid to each of them?
[Major-General Mewburn.]
3.	What are the names of the parties who have supplied the materials, and the amount of money which has been paid to* each of them?


Mr. BOYER:: 1.	What are the sums of money expended on repairs at Hudson's Wharf, since 1911?
2.	What are the names of those who have been employed on said works, and the amount of money which has been paid to each of them?
3.	What are the names of the parties who have supplied the materials, and the amount of money which has been paid to each of them?


Mr. BOYER:: 1.	What are the sums of money expended on repairs of wharf at lie Perrot Nord, since 1911?
2.	What are the names of those who have been employed on said* works, and the amount of money which has been paid to each of them?
3.	What are the names of the parties who have supplied the materials, and the amount of money which has been paid to each of them?


Mr. BOYER:: 1.	What are the sums of money expended on repairs at St. Zotique Wharf, since 1911?
2.	What are the names of those who have been employed on said) works, and the amount of money which has been paid to each of them?
3.	What are the names of the parties who have supplied the materials, and the amount of money which has been ipaid to each of them?


Mr. POWER:: 1.	Who are the officers employed at Quebec on the Staff of the Military District No. 5?
2.	How long have they been connected with this branch?
3.	What service is each of them performing?
4.	What salary and allowance is each of them receiving?
5.	'Who are those amongst them who have performed service overseas?
6.	How long have they been actually at the front?
7.	How long were they in the trenches?
8.	To which 'battalion did they belong while overseas?



UNOPPOSED MOTION FOR PAPERS.

[Stage Direction]
iMr. PREVOST:
Copy of all correspondence, petitions and communications received by the Government or exchanged between the Government and any party or association in connection with farm labour in the several provinces of the Dominion.	^


[Stage Direction]
Mr. JOSEPH E. ARMSTRONG (East Lambton) moved:
That, in the opinion of this House, it is of great importance that the increased and increasing demand for fuel for manufacturing and residental purposes he supplied in larger quantities and at cheaper rates than are now possible; that the deposits of bituminous and! anthracite coal in Canada located in the extreme

eastern and western portions thereof, be more fully and thoroughly utilized for the benefit of the residents of the oentral provinces; that the enormous peat and lignite deposits so widely distributed through all portions of the Dominion be also scientifically made use of for the same purpose, and further that the Government of Canada make a special effort through legislation and otherwise, to have these valuable deposits more fully and rapidly developed to the end that the people of Canada may be adequately supplied with these fuels'.
He said: The hon. member for East Edmonton (Mr. H. A. Mackie) who was- to have supported this resolution has been obliged to leave owing to illness in his family. He, therefore, asked me to read on his behalf a letter which embodies his views with respect to this resolution. The letter reads:
[Stage Direction]
Ottawa, April 12ith, 1918.
__p.G your [DOT] Resolution in the House-
Hear Mr. Armstrong:-
Enclosed you will find oopy of letter which speaks for itself.	„	T
Owing to the illness of my aged father 1 arranged to go to-morrow afternoon to visit him Train connections make it impossible for me 'to return here in time for Monday's dis-*Cuss ion.
I therefore, beg you to be good enough to point out to the House, that it is possible, m my opinion, for the Provinoe of Alberta to supply all the coal needed in the Provinces of Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba, and even in the Province of Ontario, subject to costs and facilities of transportation.
This subject has been ably covered by Mr. Demieux, member for Maisonneuve, and I am sure he will co-operate with you in every particular. In my opinion there is no reason why the miners of Alberta should hot be kept busy at the mines during the summer months, and the coal transported and stored in such a way that only a small percentage would be lost.
If the winter demand for the Provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan and Manitoba is now supplied many of the miners could be transported to the Eastern coal fields, there to enlarge the output so as to supply from that point, at least the Province of Quebec, if not Ontario.	.	.
I regret very much that your Resolution is brought at this time because the delegation of miners who are coming to this city on the 17th instant, for the express purpose of discussing the ways and means of production, could be of material assistance to us in this discussion.
This Government, in my opinion, should not neglect to keep in close touch with the labour element so as to remedy, in this particular case at all events, the condition of things which exist. I would have suggestions to make, but not having had' the opportunity to discuss with the Minister of .Labour, and not knowing what he has in mind, I refrain from so doing.
Tours very truly,

[Stage Direction]
Enclosed with the hon. gentleman's letter was the following communication:
District No. 18.
United Mine Workers of America.
Calgary, Alta., March 30th, 1918.
H. A. Mackie, Esq.,
House of Commons,
Ottawa.
Dear Sir:-
I beg to acknowledge yours of the 2.5th inst. andJ wish to state that pretty near all the Lignite Mines are closed diown as they have no Orders, Drumheller Mines and Mines in the Lethbridge Field, if you could get the Government to give us the Manitoba, and Saskatchewan market, we could work ten months in the year. Last year and all winter they were having heatless days in the East, at the same time Mr. Magrath was allowing coal from the lakes that had been shipped while the Lakes were open, sending the coal to Winnipeg, and our Mines in the Drumheller valley, closed down, during November, December and January, these mines only worked two months, that was before the strike, A committee of the Miners of District 18 will be in Ottawa on April 17th, and will see you and give you all information that is necessary.
Yours truly,
"Edw. Browne"
Secretary District 18.
The resolution which I have moved is * identically the same as that which I placed upon the Order Paper last year. It is not my intention to repeat at any great length any of the arguments which I used at that time, but I do feel that the Government should then have given this matter their immediate attention. While it is true that they have during the past ten days set aside by Order in Council the sum of $400,000 for the development of the coal areas of the West, and that they also contemplate the development of some of our enormous peat deposits, I feel that a full year has in reality been wasted, and instead of being ready with a supply of fuel for the coming winter, with its anticipated still greater shortage, we shall not be in a position to supply public demands for some considerable time unless the greatest possible speed is attained. However, I cannot but congratulate the Government upon the action they have taken, and am confident that the people of Canada will uphold them in any reasonable efforts they may make to provide fuel for the winter of 1919.
Mr. BURNHAM:: May I ask the hon. member if he will say if he knows anything of the Graham carbonizing process and if the Cabinet has taken it into consideration?


Mr. J. E. ARMSTRONG:: I will leave the answer to the minister; I am not positive what action they have taken. My advice to them is to speed up the organization to the utmost limit, and I am going to offer some suggestions as to how it should be

speeded up. What we need, Mr. Speaker, at the head of the Geological Survey and the Mines Branch is a man who should and would devote all his time and energy towards making it what it should be, one of the most progressive departments of this Government. He should be given a free hand to reorganize and rearrange this department. In making this statement, I do not wish in any way to criticise the present acting Minister of Mines, for I believe he is at least trying to straighten out some of the _ many things which need to be straightened out in that department; but the present Minister of Mines is also the Secretary of State, and in that position he cannot give the Department of Mines the attention it deserves during these trying days. Let me call your attention, for a moment, to the extent of the operations carried on in this department, and the amount of money which is spent.
Civil Government salaries, 1917
an<} 1918

Geological Survey Branch - -	181,091 70
Mines Branch	 10L565 64
Assay Office - 

 

 

 

 4g
Total	$629,992 27
This amount has heen expended on employees operating in the different branches of this department. The employees on April 5th numbered 276. In 1907, the Geological Survey Act was passed' and the appointment of a separate minister was considered advisable, and since that time there have been seven ministers in this department, and several acting ministers. You can readily understand, Mr. Speaker, that no definite policy could be worked out in this way. Many of these ministers did not take even a reasonable interest in their department, and some of them while they were in office never visited or inspected the branches in Ottawa to see whether those branches were living or dead-and I want to make the statement that some of the branches, at least, appear to be more dead than alive at. the present time. It is surprising to me that so much has 'been accomplished in the last few years under the circumstances. There should not 'be any divided authority in this department. I am confident that there should be a general readjustment. Some men should be superannuated; others should be dismissed, and some new blood injected into this department, which, though one of the most important, has been one of the most neglected in the service.	*	,
[Mr. J. E. Armstrong.!
There is serious overlapping in this department, and a useless waste of puJblic money as well .as of the valuable time of officials. Take the matter of statistical reports; they are one or two years old before being handed out to the public. The 1917 report has not been sent to the printer yet. Some radical changes are needed if this department is to serve the public as it should in its future development. The Minister of Manes should, at an early date, call the heads of the mines branches of each of the provinces together, and devise a scheme whereby overlapping and duplication of work should be stopped. The mines branches in the different provinces should work in perfect harmony with this department, 'but under present conditions the very opposite is the case. This department should also get in close touch with the industries using mineral products in our country, and every encouragement should be extended to assist the development of these industries. Parliament should deal generously with this branch and provide it with evgry reasonable means to carry on its work. Last year, the production of our mines amounted to over $192,000,000, of which the province of Ontario produced $71,000,000. The mines of Canada are capable of far greater development, and if the Government will take the money spent by this department in useless and unnecessary work, and add to it the money used by commissions in duplicating the work already done by this department and by the Interior Department there would be a large amount available for these developments.
Canada must be ready, after the war, to manufacture, as far as possible, her raw material. Vast quantities of raw material are leaving our mines to be manufactured into finished products in the Undted.States and elsewhere. We have only developed a small portion of our mineral area, and no country in the world can offer greater opportunities to the man who wishes to invest in mining. Canada needs a fuel controller, but she also needs a mines department that will back him up and assist him in furnishing the fuel. Why should it be necessary for the people of Saskatchewan and Alberta to import coal from Pennsylvania, two thousand miles away, when they have abundance of excellent fuel within their own boundaries? Five hundred and fifty thousand tons of Pennsylvania coal was transported to the western provinces last year, when, with proper development and distribution, the coal deposits of the West would have been quite sufficient to supply their needs. In addition to this, 2,376,934 tons of

other grades of coal from the United States were utilized in those western provinces. According to the 'Commission of Conservation, the total imports of coal into Fort William, Port Arthur and Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta points of entry for the years 1914, 1915 and 1916 were as follows: I will quote the 1916 figures:
Tons.
Anthracite	 533,642
Bituminous-
Slack	 258,836
Lump and run-of-mine.. .. 2,118,098
Total	 2,910,576
The estimated value which the commission has placed on this coal is at least ten million dollars.


John Allister Currie: How much is that per ton?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: That depends on the grades and qualities. This is the statement made by the Conservation Commission:	1
The foregoing valuation of the coal imported in 1916 is based on the price at the mines in the United States, and does not include the freight charges on American lines, nor the freight on that brought up by the lakes. The total amount of money which annually leaves Canada to pay for these imports represents approximately ten millions of dollars.
Practically the whole province of Alberta, and many parts of Saskatchewan, are undermined with coal. These provinces have a greater quantity of coal than any country in the world with the exception of the United States. There is no excuse for a coal shortage in Canada between Port Arthur and the Pacific ocean, nor yet is there a reasonable excuse for a shortage of coal between Montreal and tha Atlantic ocean. I understand that the mines in the West would be able to materially increase production if steady employment could be given to the miners; .and by producing fuel in the. West for consumption there it would create a steady demand for coal and mean all-the-year-round operation of the mines. Millions of dollars would he kept in this country which is now going to the United States in payment for coal. The people of Nova Scotia should be furnished with transportation facilities in order to land their coal, iron, steel, coke, tar, and the chemicals produced from coal, in Quebec and Ontario ports, and in return would receive our flour, wheat, bacon and manufactured goods. Canada has tremendous resources in. her mines, and we must commence to investigate and to utilize them. The coal areas of Canada have an estimated
total extent of 109,168 square miles, and on summing up the reports of the coal deposits of the world we find that Canada has the second greatest amount available, namely,
1.234.269.000.	000 tons, while the 'United States has 3,838,659,000,000 tons available. The actual available supply in Nova Scotia is estimated at 400,000,000 tons, and the present output in that province is 5,000,000 tons per annum. The Maritime Provinces once provided the province of Quebec with
2.000.	000 tons of coal; last year they only provided 50,000 tons. It may safely be said that there will be no permanent reduction in the price of coal, rather it is reasonably certain that there will he a gradual and steady increase. The price of anthracite and other coal is advancing largely because of the exhaustion of the thicker beds, the increased cost of working and the increased freight rates. In the United States, they are digging coal dust from coal dumps and rivers, and find it, after treatment equal in many ways to the best slack coal. This .merely goes to show that the people of the United States are making every effort to conserve their fuel resources. They are also demanding that their people save fuel. In the anthracite region, during a period of many years,
5,000,000 tons- of what is called coal slush has been dumped into the rivers. If you go through that region to-day, you will see dredges working in the riveTS taking out this slush, which is afterwards sold. I understand that within the past year a considerable quantity of this material has been finding its way into 'Canada.
George H. Cushing, editor of Black Diamond, says:
The United States will start this year with 125,000 fewer miners than at the end of 1916. These men have either been drafted or have drifted to industrial centres where munition and other plants pay higher wages. Car supplies have not materially increased.
Vice-president Schayer, of the Pennsylvania railroad, after a study of the car situation says:
Only alleviation, not correction, is possible this year. It will take the railroads until the end of the war to. catch up with their traffic. Apart from direct coal requirements we must supply from American coal enough by-products to support 1,500,000 troops shooting away powder.
Let me read a paragraph from a statement made by Mr. W. J. Dick, of the Geological Survey Department, to the Mining Institute in " the * city of Montreal some-weeks ago.
Speaking of the waste of coal in Canada, W. J. E>ick said:

A large proportion of the coal mined in Canada was lost and wasted through caving [DOT]of measures owing to the practice of mining lower seams of better quality first, with the result that (by the caving in, the recovery of coal from the upper seams was generally impossible. In other countries leases were granted only on satisfaction being given the authorities that a proper scheme of operations was to be carried on. In Canada, there was indiscriminate leasing of coal lands without restriction, and if the mines were working to their capacity, the output would be 1 G,00>0,0'O'O tons per annum. He deprecated the opening up of farmer or "snowbird" mines, about 400 of which had been abandoned in Alberta alone, as they had only destroyed the entrance to a coal field for l^rge operations and were a menace to safety in the workings. He suggested that slack coal should be made into briquettes if a cheap binding could be found.
New York, April 11.-Warnings that a shortage of bituminous coal exists were issued today by fuel authorities here. The situation is so serious, according to Harry T. Peters, chairman of the State Fuel Conservation Committee, that we will be back where we were last winter unless something is done to relieve matters.
March was the worst month in point of production during the past year and a half, Mr. Peters asserted, and some factories have been forced to continue working with barely enough fuel to meet current needs.
To show how urgent is the need for conservation of coal, the following is quoted from the United States Fuel Bulletin:
But unfortunately, the transportation of coal alone uses up 30 per cent of the entire railroad equipment of the United States, cars, locomotives, sidings, and terminals.
I merely read this for the purpose of calling to the attention of the ministers the need of more stringent regulations with Tegard to the operations carried on at the mines and the development of our coal resources.
Here is a statement made )by a professor in a Saskatchewan college:
The United States wastes $500,000,000 worth of coal every year, said Dr. R. D. McLaurin, professor of chemistry at the University of Saskatchewan, in a recent letter to F. Maclure Sclanders, industrial commission of the Border Chamber of Commerce, Windsor.
Canada has been as wasteful proportionately. In view of the present necessity for fuel of all \kinds, this waste of coal is nothing less than criminal.
Let me direct the attention of hon. mem-'bexs to a statement made by H. A. Garfield, United States fuel administrator. The article is headed " Won't You Help to Save Coal?" Mr. Garfield says:
The war has created a demand upon the United States for 100,000,000 extra tons of coa.1 this year. Because of the congested condition of the railroads, due to war shipping, it will be impossible to supply more than half this additional demand through increased production alone. The remaining 50,000,000 tons needed to support war activities and to keep us warm will have to be saved shovelful by shovelful through care in American factories and homes.
The	States is called upon to produce 70 0,000,00 0 tons of coal this year. This is 100,000,000 more tons than we have ever produced before. The high water mark of production this year, in spite of all handicaps, will give 50,000,000 tons of this additional amount. The remaining 50,000,000 tons must be filled in by patriotic thriftiness. If in each home there was saved one shovelful of coal each day it would mean a total saving of 15,000,000 tons a year. Comfort for 7,500,000 soldiers in army cantonments. Enough to send a fleet of twenty-five battleships 3,00*0 miles across the Atlantic to guard our transports
This is a statement issued in New York within the last few days:

I read these extracts merely for the purpose of emphasizing horw dependent we are on the United States for a large quantity of coal annually, and the necessity of the Government taking immediate action to endeavour to supply the people of Canada with an adequate quantity of coal for the coming winter. This is a statement made by the coal operators of the Northwest:
Production in Alberta can be almost doubled in 1918 with same labour. Alberta coal operators are anxious to supply the coal needs of the Canadian West, and thus relieve the general fuel situation in Canada. To this end the Northern Alberta Coal Operators' Association has sent two delegates to Ontario to impress this on the people and through them upon the Government. There was a meeting of the coal operators of Alberta at Calgary on February 11, said Mr. Anderson, at which possibly 75 operators were present, representing the mines of Edmonton, Drumheller, Lethbridge, and the Alberta portion of the Crow's Nest Pass field. The meeting was called to ascertain what the Alberta coal mines could do to increase production in 1918. The mines of Alberta produced approximately 4,700,000 tons of coaJl in 1917. At this meeting the Crow's Nest Pass field promised an increase in 1918 over 1917 of 1,250,000 tons, Lethbridge an increase of 200,000 tons, Drumheller an increase of 1,800,000 tons, and Edmonton an increase of 1,000,000 tons, if the mines were kept running continually and with labour which is at present employed.
This country is short of transportation facilities, therefore, it is short on coal One begins to comprehend the nature of the problem when confronted with this fact: the transportation of the 30,000,000 carloads of coal mined last year constituted more than half of all the freight carried by the railroads. But when to this eloquent factor is added the explanation that railroads themselves in their locomotives used last year between 125,00*0,000 and 13(5,000,000 tons of coal, and that they will this year require for their use 175,000,000 tons, it is seen that this hauling of coal is a burdensome proposition.
During 1917 the mines of Alberta worked on an average of 13.3 days per month for the year. On February 9. when a portion of Canada was ordered to close its manufacturing concerns owing to lack of fuel, a mine in the Edmonton field, having an output of 400 to 500 tons daily,

was closed down for lack of orders. Mr. Shelden represents the Humberstone Coal Company in the same field, with an output of 800 tons daily, and which has been closed several days in February owing to lack of orders. All this while Ontario is short of fuel.
I am convinced that only by the development of our own fuel resource* in our western country can we expect to avert a crisis euch ae we had in Ontario during the last winter.
As to the question of natural gas for fuel purposes. In addition to the enormous deposits of coal, the western provinces are supplied with large quantities of natural gas; in fact, no country in the world has so large a supply. Millions of feet of this most valuable fuel are (being wasted every day- wasted, to a large extent, through the carelessness of the Mines Branch of the Interior Department, in connection with the western provinces, and wasted also through conflict between the Geological Survey and Mines Branches. I can best emphasize this statement by reading a reply to a letter I sent to the Deputy Minister of Mines. It is dated Ottawa, January 8, 1918, and reads as follows:
Dear Mr. Armstrong:


Mr. MEIGHEN:: Where did you get that information?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: From Dr.
Dowling of the Mines Branch.


Arthur Meighen: He does not know what he is talking about, if he says that.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: This well has been wasting gas for the past twenty or twenty-five years; I have heard of this well myself a number of times, and have called the attention of the Mines Department to it. For years it has wasted over 500,000 feet of gas per day

an estimated loss of about one billion feet of gas altogether. There is another well on the Peace river wide open. These are only two of the wells that have been abandoned and are wasting this excellent fuel. I think the Mines Branch, so far as the leasing of wells and things of that kind is concerned, should be under the Geological Survey Branch. I think that was intended when the Act was passed on the 27th of April, 1907. Clause 4 Of that Act reads as follows:
The department shall administer all laws enacted by the Parliament of Canada relating to mines and mining, and shall also have the management and direction of all subjects assigned to it by the Governor in Council.
Whenever, under the provisions of this section, the management and direction of any subject is transferred from any other department to the Department of Mines, the Minister of Mines and the Deputy Minister of Mines shall be substituted for, and have all the powers and perform all the duties of, the minister and deputy minister, respectively, of such other department, as defined and provided by the Acts and regulations relating to such subject.
Natural gas is the cleanest and best of natural fuels. Raymond S. Blatchley of the Bureau of Mines of the United 'States estimated that up to 1914 the waste of natural gas in the state of Kansas alone had amounted to 25 billions of feet, and that the state of Oklahoma had wasted a similar amount through carelessness. Abandoned wells were improperly plugged and water was allowed to enter the gas veins. A great quantity of natural gas in the United States is being used for the manufacture of gasolene. The quantity of gasolene that may be obtained from gas ranging in specific gravity from 0-64 to 1-46 varies from zero to 5 gallons per 1,000 feet of gas. With the absorption process a natural gas containing less than 1 pint of gasolene per 1,000 feet can be treated at a profit. In the year 1915, 65,000,000 gallons of gasolene

prepared by these methods was placed on the market in the United States. The production of gasolene from natural gas in 1916 in the United States was over 100,000,000 gallons.
In order that I may give some idea of the increase of -consumption of gasolene as a fuel, the Bureau of Mines of the United States says that while the consumptiori of gasolene in 1909 was 11,000,000 barrels of 42 gallons, in 1914 it had increased to 30,000,000 barrels, in 1916 to 50,000,000 barrels, and in 1917 to 75,000,000 barrels-a total of
3,150,000,000 gallons. A similar increase in the consumption of this fuel is going on in Canada, and this is an additional reason for conserving our natural gas. The people of the United States in 1914 used 591,000,000,000 feet of natural gas in their cities, towns and factories for heating and lighting. What is Canada doing to conserve and utilize her gas fields? In Ontario, for instance, the provincial government have appointed a man whose duty it is to follow up all drilling operations in the provinces, to see that wells are carefully bored, and that no water is allowed to escape into the veins of an abandoned well through being improperly plugged.
Now a few words about powdered coal. In the United States 8,000,000 tons of powdered coal was used last year. I understand that little, if any, of this product is used in Canada.
I have made somewhat extensive inquiries in regard to the use of powdered coal in factories and on the railways, and I am convinced that we should immediately investigate the advisability of using coal in this form. In order to use coal in pulverized form it should be specially prepared, which consists of thoroughly drying -and grinding. The cost of preparation is off-set by mechanical feeding, doing away with high-priced firemen; this is particularly true when applied to firing locomotives. -It is -blown into the furnace with a burner similar to an oil burner.
I am informed that the provincial laws of Alberta forbids the burning of the high volatile lignite coal, owing to the danger from starting fires. In the pulverized form the combustion would be so thorough that there would be no danger from this source, and, besides, it entirely eliminates the smoke nuisance which is so prevalent at busy city terminals. In talking this matter over with railroad men in Alberta, they seemed to think that the high per cent of moisture in the lignite coal would seriously interfere with the burning of it in the pcwiered form. However, I have secured
[-Mr. J. E. Armstrong-.]
from Mr. John Sterling, Inspector of Mines in Alberta, analysis from seven of the largest mines, two of which I give, showing a fair average:
Lakeside Mine-
Moisture	 24-1
Ash	 6-1
Volatile	 26-7
Fixed carbon	 42-1
Leth-bridge Chinook Coal Co., Ltd.-
Moisture	 8-7
Ash	 11-2
Volatile	 28-
Fixed carbon	 52 1
The former shows high percentage of moisture, but when this coal was submitted for analysis to J. E. Muhlfield, President of the Locomotive Pulverized Fuel -Company, of New York, he -at once stated that the moisture was so easily reduced that it was no detriment. I -quote Mr. Muhlfiel-d, for it is largely through his personal efforts that the use of low grade fuels in powdered form has been brought to its present state of efficiency. In 1915 the fuel situation in Brazil was in such a serious condition that the average price reached $40 per ton for best coal. There are large deposits of coal in Brazil, but it contains so great a percentage of sulphur and iron pyrites, which clinkers on the grates of -an ordinary boiler, that it was impossible to get results, and for this reason had practically no commercial value.
The Brazilian Government, learning that their native coal might be used in the powdered form, sent Dr. Ri-berio, Locomotive Superintendent of the Central Kailway of Brazil, to the United States to make a test of 50 tons of Brazilian coal on locomotives in- the pulverized form, analysis of which was as follows :
Moisture, from	
2	to	8	per	centSulphur	
3	to	9	per	centVolatile	14	to	28	per	centFixed car-bon	34	to	58	per	centAsh	26	to	30	per	cent
The tests of the above proved that the volatile and fixed carbon- percentage made this a very satisfactory fuel in powdered form, and orders were placed for 12 locomotives to be constructed to burn pulverized coal. These are now in service on Brazilian railroads and have proved so satisfactory that the Brazilian- Government have placed orders in the United States for 250 more locomotives to be equipped to burn native Brazilian coal in pulverized form.
The American Locomotive Works at Schenectady, N.Y., have a powdered fuel plant, and they are using this form of fuel

under their water tube boilers, and also have substituted this kind of fuel at their oil burning furnaces in their large forge plant. Mr. R. H. White, their maintenance engineer, said that they were getting as good results in their forge plant with powdered coal as they formerly did with oil at a very much reduced cost. Mr. White also stated that some of the coal which they were using successfully in the powdered form was of such low grade that it could not be used in furnaee grates.
I submit this information to the House ' for its consideration.
Now, in regard to electricity. The simplest way to cut dawn our coal imports into Ontario is to use our water-powers, when Niagara and the St. Lawrence, and their tributaries are doing the work they should do there will be little need of coal for industrial development, we will however need large quantities of coal for heating purposes. What is the Dominion doing to assist in the development of electricity? Should we leave the development of this industry to the provinces? Ontario for instance, has $50,000,000 invested in the electrical development of the province. It is estimated that Canada has 18,800,000 horsepower available from her water-powers, and has only developed 1,800,000 horse-power, leaving about seventeen million horse-power undeveloped. (Assuming a horse-power to call on an average of 10 tons of coal per annum.) This means a waste of 170,000,000 tons of coal annually, providing it was necessary to develop all our water-powers. What are we doing as a Dominion to control this enormous waste? If we did not have the development of electricity in Canada we would be compelled to import from the United States or other countries double the amount of coal we are importing to-day. Canada has the greatest amount of waterpower in any country in the world, and in the future there will be tremendous developments in this direction. This Government should place the development of electricity for light, heat, and power purposes, under some minister who will take an active interest in its promotion.
Just a word in regard to our peat deposits. *It is not m'y intention to discuss at any length the question of peat, oil shale, deposits, or producer gas. The Government officials decided that peat could be manufactured in blocks suitable for industries and private homes at an actual cost of $1.75 per ton. The officials of the Mines Branch . claim that this was the actual cost per ton of producing 2,000 tons from the Alfred bog, just outside Ottawa. If the officials
of the Government are correct in their calculations as to the cost of this peat, we are neglecting the development of our peat 'bogs. Canada has 37,000 square miles of known peat bogs, but these form probably but a small fraction of the total constituting a potential national asset of enormous value. The peat deposits of Canada are greater in extent than those of any other country with the exception of Russia. During the period from 1908 to 1914 the Mines Branch located, mapped and investigated 140,000 acres of bogs, estimated to be capable of yielding 115,000,000 tons of fuel, and 10,500,000 tons of peat moss litter. Seven, of these bogs within convenient shipping distance of Toronto, will yield 26,500,000 tons of fuel, four 'bogs within a few miles of Ottawa are estimated to contain over 25 million tons. Seven bogs in the Montreal district could furnish that city with 23,500,000 tons of fuel, and five bogs along the St. Lawrence and convenient to Quebec, could supply 16,250,000 tons of fuel. Next winter there will be a greater demand for fuel, and the railroads cannot cope with the conditions, and handle any great quantities of this fuel. We are calling for greater production, and the railroads will be taxed to their utmost. How then can we expect to be in a better position as regards transportation? This is the time to begin to speed up coal delivery, and to urge the production of other fuels as well as coal. The Department of Mines of the United States issues a pamphlet, called "Five ways of saving fuel in heating houses."
We should educate our people in the use of lower grades of fuel. The same department issues another pamphlet called "Firing bituminous coal in house heating boilers." We educate our people in food conservation, why not in fuel conservation? A campaign of publicity, through the press and otherwise, should be instituted similar to the campaign for food conservation. Farmers, and others living in rural communities, should be urged to use wood fuel. Canada must plan for a fuel supply, not only for this year or next year, but for generations to come. The coal shortage of the United States last year was officially estimated to be 50,000,000 tons. The people of Canada in 1916 used 30,000,000 tons of coal and we only produced 14,500,000 tons.
There will be far greater shortage this year unless immediate action is taken. The demands for coal for industrial purposes have greatly increased, and the demands for export purposes have increased enormously. The United States, through its fuel administration, has ordered that no

coal is to be exported from that country except to Canada. How long will the United States deplete her stock of coal to keep us warm and to keep the wheels of our enterprises going? The coal shortage in the United' States will continue for the duration of the war and Canada is sure to he seriously affected thereby. Canada to-day is facing a fuel situation of great gravity, a situation created by our dependence on the United States for our fuel supply. It will be quite impossible for that country to supply our needs, and1 give reasonable attention to the requirements of her people.
Our present position is most unsatisfactory and can only be improved by a determined and energetic exploitation and utilization of our own vast fuel resources. To do nothing, or to waste time, must lead to misery and disaster. Drastic measures must be undertaken by this Government in order to prevent as far as possible a serious shortage of fuel in 1919. I therefore respectfully urge that every effort be put forth by this Government to provide for abundance of fuel for the coming winter, and at the same time lay the foundation for an unlimited supply of fuel for the future.


Mr. M. CLARK:: I should like to ask my hon. friend (Mr. Armstrong) if he could give us the comparative figures as to the export of coal from the United States to Canada and from Canada to the United States.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I regret I am not in a position to give those figures. I have no doubt the minister will be very glad to supply that information.


Mr. W. D. COWAN (Regina) :: Mr. Speaker, provided that this House gives assent to the resolution that is proposed by my hon. friend from Lambton (Mr. Armstrong), and the Government gives effect to it. it will be of such inestimable value to the section of country in which I live, that I feel I would be derelict in my duty if I did not give as strongly as I can my support to the resolution. I have referred to the section of the country in which I live, and I hope that my hon friend from Lambton will forgive me for taking a sectional view of what is a splendid Dominion-wide policy. If anything which I feel in connection with this policy is not any larger than the section or the province I represent I do not think the point which I propose to make would be worthy of respect. This is a Dominion wide policy and I hope that, while I am 
speaking of the section I represent, no one will feel that I am too small a man to take a broad view of the question.
The section of the country to which I refer is the whole east half of the province of Saskatchewan and a large portion of the province of Manitoba, in which territory, there live at least one million people and the coal supply for that one million people should naturally come from the lignite fields of Southern Saskatchewan. I believe I am correct when I say that from these fields can be taken, not millions of tons of coal, but billions upon billions of tons. I believe, so enormous is that coal field, that it will supply Canada for hundreds of years to come. Notwithstanding the fact that we have one million people living there, and notwithstanding the fact that there .are billions of tons of coal, we are using only two hundred thousand tons a year out of that field.
To-day I am somewhat in a state of doubt, not in regard to the resolution, because I give it my most hearty endorsement, but in regard to my attitude towards governmental action. Doubt has come to me because of the statement which was made in this House last week by the hon. the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Meighen), in reply to the motion made by the hon. member from Maisonneuve (Mr. Lemieux). I paid particular attention to him as he was speaking and I noticed that he spoke with a great deal of hesitancy. I know the Minister of the Interior and I know that hesitancy is not one of his characteristics. I also noticed that he was lacking in detail upon that particular occasion. I know that he is a master of detail and I rather wondered at that. I also noticed that he was not too definite in what he said and he usually is quite definite. So, I came to the conclusion, which I think was natural, that the hon. member was not too sure himself of the question upon which he was 'speaking. Then, in the last two. or three days, taking up the western press, I have noticed that they have been dealing with his statement very extensively and I find that they are very much in doubt .as to what is proposed. Some of them say that the Government has decided to vote $200,000 for the development of the lignite fields of -southern Saskatchewan and that the governments of Manitoba and Saskatchewan would each vote $100,000, making $400,000, . and that this was to be used in establishing a briquetting plant at Estevan. Then again, the press informed us that they had interviewed the local governments and that

the local governments had expressed themselves to the effect that they did not know anything about it. We are informed by the hon. member for Lambton that an Order in Council appropriating $400,000 has been passed. I hope that is so, and I hope that my ignorance in regard to the matter may be excused. I have never seen that Order in Council, but as the whole thing appears to be in a state of doubt, I feel that I should support, just as strongly as I can, the resolution of my hon. friend from Lamb-ton, and urge upon the Government that if they have not yet decided to vote that money, they should immediately decide to do so.
About ten days ago the hon. the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Carvell), from his seat in this House, made a statement, which 1 took to be an enunciation of policy on the part of the Government, when he said that not one dollar of money would be expended on any unnecessary work. I take that to be a hint to all members of this House that we need not bother ourselves very much asking for local improvements. With that policy I fully agree. The seventy thousand people living in the constituency of Regina have sent me down here for one purpose, and one purpose only, and that is to remove all embarrassments from the Government of Canada until we had got this accursed war out of the way. That is the reason I am here. I am not here to make any unusual demands and I do not intend to do so. But at the same time I can say that this $400,000 would not be an expenditure at all, but it would be an investment which would return the full amount to the Government and to the people, because they are one, and under those circumstances I think I am justified in saying that such an expenditure would be entirely within the policy announced by the Minister of Public Works.
Why is it that only two hundred thousand tons of lignite coal have been mined and used annually in that section, and why is it that we are importing, as the hon. member from Lambton has said, .some five hundred thousand tons of anthracite from Pennsylvania? Surely Saskatchewan is not a natural market for the anthracite of Pennsylvania? I believe most thoroughly in the policy of the exchange of products, and is not coal a commodity in Tegard to which an exchange can naturally be made? The mines of the maritime provinces might find their natural market in the eastern United States, and the United States might send us their coal without hindrance. But
when it comes to Saskatchewan, I cannot imagine any one saying that Saskatchewan is the natural market for anthracite from the Pennsylvania coal fields, when we have billions of tons of coal in our own territory. Why, then, is it that it- is being sent there? I think some of the hon. members of the House will be interested in knowing the results of the experiments which were made in the city of Regina last year because of the coal shortage, and the result of which will show that governmental action is absolutely necessary and advisable, and would be profitable if it were undertaken. Last year, in connection with our municipal power plant, we entered into a contract for twenty thousand tons of Greenhill coal, and Greenhill coal is the finest coal that is mined on earth, and it comes from the province of Alberta. But the Government authorized the breaking of the contracts, with the result that we had to increase the price. More than that we were confronted with, the possibility of not getting coal at all. So we decided to authorize our commissioners to purchase two thousand tons of this lignite coal to use in our plant as an experiment in order to see how it would compare with the other coal, and whether it could (be used advantageously or not. Now, I will give you some of the results of that test in order to demonstrate what the conditions are, and to show you that governmental action is necessary if we are going to be able to use the coal from this, immense coal field.


George Eulas Foster: Where did you get your lignite?


Walter Davy Cowan: From Estevan, which is
ninety miles, as the crow flies, from our city. As I .say, we agreed to purchase twenty thousand tons of western coal, which had to be brought a distance of six hundred miles to Regina. The Estevan mines are only ninety miles, as the crow flies, south of Regina, but when we came to purchase the Estevan coal we found that in order to get it to Regina-and the same thing applies to the natural market for this coal-we had to bring it to our city in a very roundabout way. Instead of it being a matter of ninety miles, we had to ship the coal west and then double -back, involving a distance of one hundred and fifty miles all told. The freight rate for the six hundred mile journey required to bring the Greenhill coal from the Alberta mines to Regina was $3 a ton, whereas; the freight rate from Estevan by the roundabout way of a hundred and fifty miles was $1.50 a ton.



That is to say, bringing in the Estevan coal by the roundabout way cost twice the rate per ton per mile involved in bringing in the Alberta coal. Hon. gentlemen will readily see that is a very great handicap indeed. I would point out to the Minister of the Interior and to the Minister of Finance that in order to make their investment of $400,000 in coal development a profitable one, it will foe necessary to build a seven-mile railway from the Grand Trunk Paejfic railway in order to tap these mines. In that way a direct line from 'the mines to the natural market will foe provided. I do not know what interest the present Government has in the Grand Trunk Pacific railway, but I fancy that sooner or later it will have a very substantial interest in the deficits of that line, and the easiest way to get rid of those deficits would be to build the little spur line which I have suggested and this would permit of the public getting ample supplies of coal by direct route.


George Eulas Foster: What would that make your distance to the mines?


Walter Davy Cowan: Less than one hundred miles. It would save about sixty or seventy miles and make the distance to be covered between ninety and one hundred miles. .The building of the suggested seven-mile spur would give easy access to the whole of the north and north east country, and bring these coal mines into direct communication with the natural market.
Well, we found that not only did we have to pay double freight rates on this lignite, but when we came to experiment with it we proved conclusively that it carried a water content of thirty-one per cent. Now the usual water content for the western Alberta coal is less than two- per cent, so hon. gentlemen will see how we were handicapped. We had to pay double freight rates on coal thirty-one per cent of which was water, and the House will readily understand it is a rather difficult thing to burn water.


Robert Lorne Richardson: There is evidently as much water in the coal itself as there is in the stock of some of these coal companies.


Mr. OOWAN:: If the hon. gentleman is inviting me to express an opinion about water in the stock of some of the coal companies I might be inclined to say some very harsh things, but I will not do that at present. In addition to having thirty-one per cent of water in this coal, we found ourselves further handicapped when we

came to burn it; it took eleven per cent of the heat of the coal to drive out the thirty-one per cent of water content already there. Hon. gentlemen will therefore see that we were handicapped from the beginning with a forty-two per cent loss. Even in the face of all these handicaps we found we could use this coal with a loss of only eighteen cents per ton, which proved to me conclusively that if we could secure one or two things we might use it with success. Those things are: To get a direct route so that the freight rates would be computed on the shortest route to point of 'destination, or a reduction equivalent tr the rate per ton per mile obtainable on the main line.
Now what can we do to remedy the existing state of affairs, and that is the question, I think, which confronts the Government to-day if it is going into the development of our coal resources? We thought probably we could dry this coal, and if can be dried pretty conveniently, but when you have the dried product you have a rather dangerous commodity; it is very explosive, as a matter of fact, and I would not care to recommend it. In addition to that, after the lignite is dried and left exposed for any length of time, we found that in twenty-four hours it again carried a water content of twelve per cent, having absorbed that amount of moisture from the air during one day. It is therefore evident that the drying of the coal is not sufficient to meet the difficulty. There is one thing that can be done, however, and that is briquette the coal, for it can be briquetted very successfully. I am not speaking of my own knowledge on this point, I have before me the report of the Government of the province of Saskatchewan, which has gone into the subject pretty extensively. In quoting this report, I do not wish to he accused of being actuated by party or political bias. The Government of Saskatchewan has, ever since the province was created, been of the Liberal persuasion, and I have always been -at least until the war broke out-a very ardent Tory, and I certainly am not ashamed of it. I am therefore not speaking with any party bias, and I can say-notwithstanding the fact that the Government of Saskatchewan is always wrong, except when it is right-that the reports which it publishes are quite reliable, and the report in question not only contains a good deal of common sense, but displays evidences of enterprise. In the matter of briquetting the Government's investigations have been very extensive. Their tests were not merely

laboratory tests, although they have carried those out of course, hut they have sent a very substantial quantity of this lignite coal to places where briquetting is done, and brought it back, and they have given the product the most severe test which could be given. They use a certain quantity of the briquettes in their own plant built for the purpose, and the balance of it was distributed in small lots among several hundred families of the province, in order to be tested in domestic circles. 'I think you will agree with me that if this fuel is to be used 'by the people for domestic purposes that was the proper kind of test to give it; to send it out amongst the people and let them test it for themselves, and let their opinion prevail. I have a great deal of faith in public opinion, and when that public opinion comes back in the form in which it. has here, and in the shape of reliable Government reports, we must accept that opinion. The conclusion was that the briquettes had given entire satisfaction. Now if we can briquette this coal for several hundred families and give entire or universal satisfaction I think I am safe in saying that we can briquette it for several thousand families, and also give universal satisfaction. If it can be done* and it has been done on a small scale, why can we not do it in a more extensive way, and thus save ourselves from importing these hundreds of thousands of tons into an unnatural market? I will read one or two extracts from the report to which I have referred, which will show conclusively that this is a very sound proposition.
The briquettes made from the Saskatchewan carbonized lignite have 11,500 to 12,000 British thermal units per pound. They burn with a short flame, no odour, no smoke (except a very little resulting from the volatilizing of some of the pitch binder when first thrown on the fire), and no clinker. They can be used wherever anthracite or bituminous coal is burned. They retain their structure in the fire until completely consumed. They do not disintegrate or lose value in the weather, and can therefore be stored for any length of time and shipped any distance without loss.
Now, I want to know what better product for use by our people you could have than that?
They do not disintegrate or lose value in the weather, and can therefore be stored for any length of time and shipped any distance without loss.
That makes it a staple product, and if it can be produced in quantities at a commercial rate, I say that the proper thing for our 'Government to do is to immediately provide it. The article goes on:
48*
As a domestic fuel they are fully equal to the anthracite that is marketed here ton for ton. While the anthracite averages approximately 13,000 British thermal units per pound, a little higher than the lignite briquettes when compared in a laboratory, there is no clinker from the lignite briquettes, no loss in burning, and they can be used nicely in kitchen ranges, which ds impracticable with hard coal. They make an exceptionally fine fuel for fireplaces.
And in another place, I find this:
Carbonized Lignite Briquettes. -These have proved excellent for domestic service and are equal in fuel value, ton for ton, to the anthracite marketed in this territory.
Now, I need not proceed further, I think that you will agree that that is sufficient proof that this is a practicable process.


John Allister Currie: What is meant by carbonized briquettes? Is it the raw coal passed through a press?


Walter Davy Cowan: Yes, it is passed through
a press. That is what I am urging, that these presses be -adopted; that is what we want to have established there. I will just refer to that here.


An hon. MEMBER:: What is the hinder used in making these briquettes?


Walter Davy Cowan: They have been experimenting with a number of binders. The one which they are using makes an absolutely safe briquette. There is very little pitch in it, so that there is no odour. When they are first thrown on the fire there is a bright flame, lasting only a moment or two. I am speaking from personal knowledge, because I have 'burned them in my own house. They burn until completely burned out.
To find out whether this is a commercial proposition or not. You can establish as many units as you wish. One unit will cost some $75,000, that is, it would have cost about that when this report was issued, but I suppose the price will be somewhat increased now, for in the last year and -a half the cost of everything has increased very substantially. But a $75,000 unit will produce in one year 50,000 tons of briquettes. The $400,000 which is now to be expended could establish, as I understand it, about five of these units, and of course, you could add as many units as you saw fit. Would that be a pTofitaible thing to do?-to spend $75,000 to produce fifty thousand tons of briquettes? You may look at in this way: I will begin 'by taking the city in which I live as an example. In that city, fortunately, it so happens that we use fifty thousand tons, or thereabouts, every year, of Pennsylvania anthracite coal, so that we consume an amount equal to what would
I

be produced by one of these units. That ooal sells in Regina to-day at $15 a ton. As a matter of fact, it is such an inferior quality of coal which we are now getting that, compared with the price paid two or three years ago, we must be paying between $22 and $25 a ton for it; the coal is really not fit to be imported into that country at all. The excess freight rate from Pennsylvania to Regina-by that I mean the amount of freight on this coal additional to what it would be if shipped from Estevan to Regina-is a little over $4 a ton. So that we are paying $200,000 per year in freight rates alone over what we would pay if we got the coal from our own mines one hundred miles away. Is it profitable to spend $75,000 .and thereby save in one year the sum of $125,000, which is the difference in freight rates, and at the end of the year be possessed of the plant which has been established?
But it is not only that. The hon. member for Lambton (Mr. Armstrong) drew attention to the fact that there was a very keen coal shortage in eastern Canada last year. I do not think that there was so much a coal shortage as a shortage of freight cars, engineers and conductors. If I mistake not, the shortage was in- the matter of transportation. Now, let us look at it that way. We in Saskatchewan .are two thousand miles away from the Pennsylvania coal fields; we are three times as far away from the anthracite mines as they are in the central part of the province of Ontario. Now, take the fifty thousand tons of coal .and multiply it by three, making 150,000 tons, representing the increased poesi-ble haulage, and you will have some idea of the number of cars that would be available to ship coal to the settled portions of the province of Ontario. Or, take the 500,000 tons of coal delivered annually in the provinces of Manitoba and *Saskatchewan, and multiply it in the same way, and the result is 1,500,000 tons. Would the release of that transportation have been of any value to the province of Ontario last winter, or it may he, in the coming year? That is the question. If you can remove the loss due to the long transportation, cut it in three, and enable the transportation officers to concentrate their attention upon delivering coal to their nearest or natural market, you will have done something well worth while in the matter of assisting our country at this particular stage of its history. I do not know that I can add anything more to this subject, excepting, in a general way, to give
[Mr. Cowan. 1
strong support to the resolution which the hon. member for Lambton moved. I cannot imagine why these coal fields were put in Canada unless to be developed by the Canadian people. I cannot imagine what the Canadian people are in Canada for unless it is to develop the natural resources of the Dominion. Anything short of that falls far below the ideal of a genuine Canadian policy, and for that reason I support this resolution as strongly as I can.
Hon. RODOL.PHE LEMIETJX:	Mr. Speaker-


Mr. H. C. HQCKEN:: Mr. Speaker, I think that the hon. member for Lambton (Mr. Armstrong) is to be congratulated for bringing this matter before the House.


Michael Clark: I rise to a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I understand you called upon the hon. gentleman from Maisonneuve (Mr. Lemieux) to speak.


Mr. SPEAKER:: I would have recognized the hon. member on my left., but he yielded the floor to the hon. member for West Toronto. The custom ordinarily is that I should alternate from one side to the othert


Horatio Clarence Hocken: amount of power. In my own plant, I am using only about 120 h.p., but the rental of the space that it would take to put in a 120 h.p. boiler and engine would be more than what I pay for that power for the year. I presume my experience does not differ very much from that of many others. This development, which after all is a fuel development, has been of inestimable value to the people of Ontario. I should not like to see this Government over-ride the province of Ontario in its handling of hydro-electric power; I should rather like to see it co-operate with the provincial government. The provincial government has a great deal of experience which would be of value to those who would have the matter in charge. If the Government would take up this question, and if all the provincial governments could be inspired and encouraged to do what they can in the development of the different forms of natural power, that -would be to the benefit of the whole country.
If the conditions in the Mines Branch are as bad as the hon. member for East Lambton (Mr. J. E. Armstrong) states, a special committee of this House should be appointed to make an investigation; or if not, an efficiency expert should be appointed to go through that branch of the service and make whatever recommendations he thinks necessary. I have no knowledge of the matter myself, but certainly the importance of the work to be done by that branch makes it advisable for us to take steps to make it efficient, because this is going to be one of the big questions before the Dominion of Canada, not only at the present but in the future.
Hon. RODOLPHE LEMIEUX (Maison-neuve),: Mr. Speaker, I have listened with a great deal of interest to the discussion this afternoon, and I will re-echo the statement of my hon. friend from West Toronto (Mr. Hocken) that I too am sorry the House is so depleted when such a vital question is being debated. It is true we have extremely fine weather to-day, but only a few weeks ago there was a great deal of misery, suffering and hardship in this city of Ottawa. As I said the other day in presenting a motion on similar lines, the summer will soon pass away, and the same hardships will be felt throughout the central part of Canada. Sir, the House and the Government especially should recognize the emergency and face the issue squarely, and take proper measures to save the country from the consequences of another more

serious fuel shortage which may confront us next winter.
I am not exaggerating at all when I say that central Canada-the province of Ontario and a large part of the province of Quebec-is absolutely dependent on the United States for coal. The West can take care of itself, and so can the extreme East, Nova iSIcotia, Cape Breton and the Mari-ime Provinces generally, but Central Canada is absolutely dependent on Pennsylvania. The fuel controller in the United States has just issued a statement in which he says: " the United States is short in transportation facilities, and therefore it is short in coal." Then he gives a series of figures and averages, and concludes by saying that the war has created a demand upon the United for 100,000,000 tons of coal more this year than is normally produced. Because of the car shortage and the congested condition of the roads it will be impossible to increase the supply by more than 50,000,000 tons. The remaining 50,000,000 tons will have to be filled in by conservation in the homes and industrial plants of America.


Hon. J. D. REID:: That explains why our cars are kept on the other side.


Mr. LEMIEUX:: There is a shortage of cars and a shortage of labour. As I said the other day, this emergency exists because of war conditions and because, of a lack of transportation facilities and the labour situation. As it does exist in the United States, our chief source of supply, we in Canada must look around and see v/hat can be done for next winter. The coal shortage last winter was felt in many hemes and industrial plants, and . though I do not wish to be unduly pessimistic, it will be more severe next winter. What is the Government going to do about it? My hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce- has passed the Daylight Saving Bill; that is a step forward, but there is still something to be done. The Government have appointed a fuel controller, the best available man in the country. Mr. Magrath is a conscientious and most painstaking gentleman, and I am sure he will do his duty. My hon. friend from Lamb-ton (Mr. Armstrong) has given us his theories about the briquetting of lignite in the West. Whilst I admit the value of these experiments, still they are only experiments, and in this emergency the country cannot afford to wait on experiments, I saw in the press the_ other day that the Government has voted $400,000 to experiment with briquetting lignite coal in the

W-est, and I am pleased if that is true; but as my hon.- friend from Toronto said a moment ago, there is something more to do. Perhaps removing the d-uty on coal during the war would help, but that, is not the point I wish to make just now. The point is this: the Government, in addition to encouraging as much as possible the conservation of coal, should also encourage the intensified production of wood fuel for next winter. I read a letter in the Ottawa Citizen not long ago from a man who is certainly an authority on that qfiestion;
I refer to Senator Edwards. He said that in this country there are such large forest reserves that in view of thq coal famine next winter the Dominion Government should bring about a more intense production of wood for fuel purposes. That is what they are doing in the United States.
I see that a conference has been called by Mr. J. J. Storrow, the federal fuel administrator for New England, who says:
A serious shortage of coal threatens New England this winter. The situation does not warrant neglecting any possible measure of preparedness. For this reason it seems advisable to make a New England campaign for the production of wood on a large scale. Good hardwood properly prepared and dried can be used extensively for domestic purposes as an emergency measure. Wood cut in November can be burned the latter part of the winter, when the coal situation may be more acute. The campaign should also look ahead toward a large supply of wood for next winter when the coal situation may be more serious than this year.
Here we have the fuel administrator for New England saying that in his section of the United States, not so far from Pennsylvania, they will have to look for a more intense production of wood fuel to replace the coal they will be short of within a few months. If that is the condition in New England, surely there is all the more reason for us in central Canada to produce more wood. We have mill waste, generally speaking, in the large centres, but we all know that the production of the mills has been reduced considerably of late. The farmers, too, are not making such a large cut as formerly, because they are much more interested in their crops this year. There is, besides, the further handicap of lack of transportation facilities. I believe that the Government, jointly with Mr. Magrath, should have a forestry inspector appointed to encourage concurrently with the conservation of coal, the production of wood for next winter's fuel. This could be done by first of all encouraging the municipal authorities, on the lines adopted in Ottawa and Winnipeg last winter, to accumulate a reserve of wood fuel. Then there should be
a commission of publicity directed by the fuel controller to restrain people from using coal between the ,15th of April and the 15th of December. The farmers should be eu-couraged to make a larger cut, and the provincial governments should be asked to assist materially from the Crown lands. There is no doubt that the emergency exists.
I also agree with the remarks of my hon. friend from Toronto in regard to the water-powers of this country. While I do not wish to discuss what some people call the confiscatory policy which is laid at the door of the Ontario Hydro Commission, 1 must say that the policy of the province of Ontario with regard to water-powers is very commendable, and I should like to have this Government see that the water-powers of this country are conserved for the consumers of Canada. I was surprised the other day to read of the enormous'amount of power that could be developed in and around the- city of Montreal. Our water-powers constitute one, if not the biggest, asset of Canada. The Montreal Herald says:
Montreal has an enormous source of supply right at her doors. For instance there is the supply developed at the Cedar Rapids. Although this supply is developed In Canadian territory 65,000 horse power, out of a total of lOO.OOo'h. p., is being exported to the United States. "Few people," says Mr. White," have any conception of what the 65,000 h.p., now being exported to the United States from the Cedars, could do if widely distributed to customers of light and power. In 1916 a little less than 50,000 h.p., met the requirements for light and power of the 40,000 customers of the Toronto Hydro-Electric Power Commission. Including the requirements of the Toronto Street Railway, the Toronto Electric Light Company, and the Toronto Hydro-Electric Power Commission, 120,000 h.p., is now required for light and power in the municipality of Toronto. Therefore, the 65,000 h.p., exported from the Cedars would, if retained in Canada, supply, at cheap rates all the light and power required for a manufacturing city of 300,000 inhabitants. If distributed through Canadian municipalities it would supply light and power to some 35 manufacturing cities of 10,000 inhabitants each; or it would practically take care of one-third of the present demands of the Niagara system of the Hydro-Electric Power Commission of Ontario, which supplies over 100 municipalities and 100,000 purchasers of electricity.
The water-power development in Canada has been marvellous, and I am pleased to say that in my own province of Quebec it ha-s, been on a par with that in Ontario. Those of you who have lately visited the St. Maurice valley must have been surprised at the number of industries whjch have been established in that distriet, due to the intelligent work done by the Quebec government in conserving the water-powers of that

river. Reading a report of the Laurentide Company, I observed that the president, Mr. Aldred, stated that some industries, which formerly had manifested a desire to establish themselves not far from the Niagara power, bad changed their plans, and were now establishing themselves at Shaw-inigan and Grand Mere. My hon. friend knows these facts. It shows that with a comprehensive and aggressive water-power policy, a government can accomplish much. I say that by giving free hand to our fuel controller by a very aggressive campaign of publicity, we may conserve our coal; by the appointment of a forestry inspector, so as to accentuate the production of wood next winter, and, by adopting the policy of conserving and developing our water powers in the interest of the Canadian consumer, w.e may still be able to face the emergency of the future.


Hon. MARTIN BURRELL (Minister of Mines):: My hon. friend from Lambton (Mr. J. E. Armstrong), has brought up a resolution dealing with a subject of great interest to this House and the country, as he did last year, when he made a very valuable address to this House which was fully discussed. The gist of his resolution is that there should be more rapid and scientific development of our resources, and of our fuel .supply, and especially in this time of war, the Government should take speedy action to utilize all the resources; and, as far as the resolution is directed to that end, I think the Government must be strongly in accord with its terms. My hon. friend ventured on somewhat severe criticisms of the department over which I have the honour to preside at the present time. I am quite convinced that any criticism which has been directed at the department were only designed to strengthen the weak spots that existed, and I am quite sure he did not intend his remarks to be taken as seriously as they appear to be taken by the hon. gentleman from South Toronto (Mr. Hocken), who suggested the appointment of a committee. I have had the honour of being Minister of Mines for a comparatively short period, and at the time when I took charge of that department it was decided to make a general appeal to the country and the ministers were called upon to leave their posts at Ottawa and absent themselves for several months. I do not think the hon. gentleman would imagine that under those circumstances the minister would be able to become quickly settled in the administration of so large a department. I wish to assure my hon. friend from Lambton that,

*in spite of the facts which I have stated, I can conscientiously say that I have given a considerable portion of my time and energy to the Department of Mines, which I think is of immense importance to the country, and which should render an enormous service to the country at all times, and especially in times of war. I am in accord with the hon. gentlemen that there is. a certain amount of duplication in the department in reference to mining matters. Probably that is the case with all departments under democratic forms of Government. I would not have to go far afield to illustrate that. However, it should be our absolute duty to cut out these duplications, as far as we can, and corelate the work of the departments in such a way that there would be no waste of energy, for, I assure my hon. friend, I will endeavour to do my duty as far as my department is concerned. I wish to assure him we are endeavouring to keep in touch with what is being done by the provincial governments, and in other ways in the country. I had the pleasure of attending the meeting of the Mining Institute in Montreal, at which gentlemen from all parts of the country interested in mines were present, and very valuable discussions took place, in which we came in touch firsthand with the people doing the work from the Atlantic to the Pacific. I would also point out that we have kept in touch with the broader aspects of these matters. There has been, during the last two or three years, a good deal of legislation and discussion in the British Parliament in regard to minerals and mineral legislation. They are now forming what is 'known as the Imperial Mineral Resources Bureau, dealing with all the work of all the governments in the Empire, and with the endeavour, as far as possible, to keep within the Empire a control, as' far as possible, of all the minerals essential for the war, and they asked us to send over a representative (to act on the advisory board of that bureau. After taking the matter up with the Mining Institute and other bodies from other governments, we decided to send over a gentleman from Ontario, Dr. Miller, provincial geologist, a man of very wide information, a geological and mining expert, who will render a great service to Canada, when he goes over to represent Canada on that board. May I say to the House that the Department of Mines was only created as recently as 1907. The Geological Survey, which is now a part of the Department oif Mines, has, of course, been in existence for a long time, in fact, since 1842. Six provinces own their Crown lands and

deal with all these matters of administration and legislation in connection with the Crown lands and the minerals of their respective provinces. In Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, and in the railway-belt of British Columbia matters are different, because the Crown lands are in the Federal Government, and the Federal Government has to do, therefore, with the minerals and the Crown lands. But the administration of those have been left, and always were left, in the hands of the Department of the Interior. Therefore, the Department of Mines, as it exists now, and as it was created in 1907, is not administrative in character. I make no pronouncement as to whether some of the functions of the Department of the Interior should be handed over to the Department of Mings or not-I am not dealing with that question now-but I want to point out to the House that the work of the Department of Mines is not administrative 'but is investigational and educational exclusively in character.
'The Geological Survey, a very important part of the Department of Mines, deals of course with the occurrence in various districts of minerals, secures accurate information in regard to our mineral resources in the way of exploration. Where development has taken place there are a large number of requests for detailed information and detailed work, such as deciphering the local geology, structure of ore deposits and problems connected' with their form and extent and other work of a geological character. Anybody who knows the western country knows what happened in the great camp at Rossland. When they thought that they had practically exhausted their ore bodies at a certain level, owing to the work of the Geological Survey they discovered- that larger bodies could be successfully developed at lower levels and since that time, largely due to the work of the Geological Survey, there has been a marvellous development in that camp.
' Half of the work of the department, as it is done at this time, is practically concerned with problems of the war. The department is devoting itself to the working out of problems that are placed before it, sometimes by the Imperial Munitions Board and sometimes by the War Trade Board or other bodies. I could give one or two illustrations. In connection with ferro alloys, the laboratory work of the officers of the Mines Department has been such that the British Government -and the War Office accept the decisions and judgments of those officers
in connection with the selling and purchases of ferro alloys in Canada. In the chemical division there is a lot of very valuable work going on in connection with the analysis of fuel values of coal, of lignite, oil shales, peat, etc., and also in connection with the testing and analysis of gases from coal. There are other things that I would like briefly to touch upon that are important at this time. We are now endeavouring to make an effort to discover additional sources of platinum. The platinum supply of the world has been practically derived from the Ural mountains in Russia and that supply has, of course, been absolutely cut off during the war. Platinum, as hon. gentlemen know, has a value about five times that of gold1 and it is getting so scarce that the war authorities in all the allied countries are getting somewhat seriously alarmed. There is very little in the United 'States, there is hardly any in Canada and comparatively few ounces produced. Some of this has been discovered in the nickel matte from Sudbury in the refining process carried on. A small amount occurs in the ultra basic rocks in British Columbia and a small amount in some of the nuggets recovered from the placer diggings in the creeks of that province. We hope to make a special investigation of this work and have detailed some of our officers to examine the rocks in place in the hope of, if possible, getting a greater production of platinum which is an imperative necessity in connection with the war.
Pulp manufacturers have had great difficulty in getting suitable stone for their business. It was imported formerly by them. We have investigated carefully a large number of quarries to ascertain *whether the stones in those quarries were suitable for this purpose and as a result we have brought the quarry owners into touch with the manufacturers of stones and have been instrumental in seeing a very large number of orders placed for pulp stones which were formerly brought from other countries.
I need not touch on other matters not directly connected with the war tout which are of immense value to the country because the department is not only devoting itself to work in connection with the war but also to work which will be of importance in peaceful times after the war. We are taking up very vigorously the question of road materials. At the request of the provincial governments of Canada we are making an investigation of and testing an enormous number of the different road de-


Mr. E. PROULX (Prescott):: Does the
Government still possess the land at. Alfred?


Martin Burrell: I was just coming tothat point. In 1910 or 1911, operations were discontinued. The price of anthracite then was very much lower than it is at the present time, and the difficulties in connection with the problem-to demonstrate that peat fuel could be manufactured-having been solved, the department deemed its work to be done. It was thought proper not to proceed further, but to leave the rest to private enterprise. In the summer of 1911 a large part of 'the plant was taken over by Mr. Shuttleworth of Brantford, who also approached the Government with a view of purchasing the bog and the railway siding in order to erect an improved peat manufacturing plant. These were transferred to him in 1912, and he then began the construction of a mechanical excavator to do away with hand labour, hoping thereby to place the enterprise on a more economical basis. Mr. Shuttleworth constructed a mechanical excavator after the design of A. Anrep, Sr., of Sweden', who had been identified with peat development in Russia and Sweden for thirty or forty years, and his plant was

finally ready for operation in 1913. It is too long a story to go into the whole of these details, but the gentleman who advanced the money for this enterprise went to England. In 1914 the war broke out. The promoters could not get sufficient capital, and, although for a certain time the manufacture of peat was successfully undertaken, a certain number of defects developed in the machinery, and owing to the shortage of capital and other conditions the company at last went into liquidation, and the bog was again sold. The bog and some of the plant was taken over >by a syndicate which is still in possession. That was the position of affairs up to this winter.
It seemed to me, therefore, when the matter was brought to my attention, and considering the mounting price of anthracite, and the severity of a winter like last which brought home the fuel question to every one's mind in a startling way, that it was desirable to look into this more thoroughly; and for that reason we took the-peat question up again, because the main difficulty in the way was the great expense of handling it and the absolute necessity of finding some kind of improved peat machinery that would do away with the large aipount of hand labour, the whole question coming down, not to the matter of being able to make fuel-we can do that beyond question-but of handling the raw material, in the cheapest possible way, of getting it to the point of consumption so that it could reasonably compete with anthracite. With that idea, I consulted with Mr. R. A. Ross, the engineering expert who is on the advisory council, and with the experts in my own department, and later on I found that the Government of Ontario was very keen on the same subject and we went into the whole thing with them, and had a conference or two, the result of it simply being this: we came to the conclusion that it would be desirable to have two types of peat machines, or what we may call units, first, to take again the old plant that was used in 1911, which was based on the Anrep design, and improve it as far as . it could be improved, utilizing such methods as were utilized at that time; and, in the second place, to try and bring out some entirely new type of machine, which Mr. Moore, the engineer who had been associated with Mr. Shuttleworth in 1911 had in partial process of design. The matter was taken up with him, and as a result of the whole discussion with the Ontario Government and the officers of my own department and Mr. Moore we have entered into

an agreement with the Ontario Government to co-operate on some further peat experiments, 'building two types of peat machinery and operating them either at the same bog as before or some other bog, which matter is yet to be determined, each department of the Government, both federal and provincial, to bear equal proportions of the cost as to getting out designs, and the construction and installation of the machinery, for the purpose of seeing if we cannot once and for all solve the question as to whether peat can be handled in a cheap way in order to put it on the market if anthracite coal were to go down one or two dollars a ton from its present price. Unless we can do that, there is no stability or promise for development of peat manufacture on a very, very large scale. I would like to say frankly that anything that can be done this year cannot possibly do much to offset any possible fuel shortage next winter. Hon. gentlemen will understand that. But if we can get this machinery out in time to operate, or any information as to how to do it, even next year-'but I hope to do it this year-if we can get it out and show that we can produce peat by 'this sort of machinery at a price which will justify its development on a larger scale, we will have done enough to justify the expenditure of the time and money spent on this subject which, as the hon. member for Lambton has said', is of immense importance to the country.


Mr. FRIPP:: Has the minister investigated the Graham process?


Martin Burrell: I know very little about Mr. Graham's process. I have heard of him as being a great enthusiast on the peat question. Some time ago he submitted certain suggestions and processes to the department, which were not thought at all practicable by the officials. I believe Mr. Graham dissents from, that view. Certainly, if he wishes to .submit any other processes we shall be only too glad to give them our consideration. I understand he wanted some substantial assistance in the way of development, but we did not intend to do anything more than what I have mentioned, because that is enough for this year.
I want to say in conclusion that I appreciate what my hon. friend from Lambton has said. I would like to say that, as a comparatively new Minister of Mines, I quite admit it has been unfortunate for the department that there have been so many ministerial changes, because I quite understand that such conditions do not promote

continuity of policy or of work or enthu&-iasm on the part of the officials'. But, so far as my knowledge goes, in that department there are a very large number of exceedingly able men, thoroughly well trained, enthusiastic, thoroughly keen about their work, and just as anxious to help their country in these war times as anybody else. Where the department is weak, it will be my duty to .strengthen it. If there are any mouldered branches they should certainly be lopped off. I shall bear in mind any criticism that the hon. member has made, and if, as a result of that, we can speed up our work, his resolution, as far as I am concerned, will not have been useless.
At six o clock the House took recess.
After Recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.


Arthur Meighen: Mr. Speaker, before the
motion carries I wish to make a few remarks, not wholly upon the motion but upon a .phase of the address of the hon. member for East Lambton (Mr. J. E. Armstrong), and possibly of some of the addresses that followed. When I spoke on a similar subject on a motion by the hon. member for Maisonneuve (Mr. Lemieux) about a week ago, I did so merely as a substitute, called hastily to the task, for one of the other ministers, and speaking in that capacity I naturally did observe what I thought was a becoming reserve and, perhaps, hesitancy. What I shall say to-night will be entirely on that phase of the addresses that constituted something in the nature of an attack on the Mines Branch of the department over which I preside, and, consequently, I suppose I can speak with that freedom and clearness to which the House is always entitled. In order that hon. members may not have the question of responsibility confused, may I first of all draw this distinction: The Mines Department is a department under the ministry of the Secretary of State. As to that, I have, as a minister, nothing further to do than as a colleague. The Mines Branch of the Department of the Interior is an entirely different organization. That branch has to do with the administration of mining properties in so far as they belong to the Government of Canada^ that is to say, wherever mines are found on lands, the property of the Dominion, those mi.nes themselves are administered by the Mines Branch of the Department of the Interior. Consequently, Hudson bay lands, Canadian
Pacific lands, and all lands granted before a certain date some years ago, in regard to which lands the patent carried with it all the minerals and mines, are in no way under the Mines Branch of the Department of the Interior, and with them, of course, we have no concern. These lands having been alienated and being now private property, their administration as such comes wholly within the jurisdiction of the provincial governments. The Mines Department is an entirely different institution from the Mines Branch. Not only is it a distinct entity, but its character and its purpose are wholly different. Its object, as I understand it, is the development and the fostering of the mining industry in this country, the encouragement and the help of that industry. The Branch of Mines under the Department of the Interior has to do with mines themselves in so far as they are the property of the Dominion. That being clear, first of all, hon. members will have no difficulty in determining what are the references to which it is my duty to reply.
It has been alleged by the hon. member for East Lambton, not on his own responsibility-for his courtesy I wish to give him full credit and thanks-but on the responsibility of others, including two officials of the Mines Department, that there was laxity in the administration of the Mines Branch of the Department of the Interior, resulting in a very serious waste of gas in mines in the province of Alberta under the control and administration of the department. In this connection, the hon. member read a letter from the Deputy Minister of the Mines Department. That the quotation may be fresh in the memory of the House, I will read the letter again:
Ottawa, January 8, 1918. Dear Mr. Armstrong:
Your letter of the 2nd instant to the Minister of Mines relative to the waste of natural gas in northern Alberta was referred to this offioe for attention.
I have consulted with Mr. D. B. Dowling of the Geological Survey, and from him I learn that the waste of gas is not nearly so large as you have been told.
There is, however, some waste both at Peace River and at other places in northern Alberta. At present the operators can practically do as they please, and it is high time that some regulations were formulated aiming at controlling their actions.
In addition to the waste of gas, there is also danger of faulty or careless boring injuring or destroying gas horizons by letting in water.
The great gas field in northern Alberta is under -the control of the Interior Department, and leases to bore for gas or oil are issued by them. I have already drawn their attention to the pressing need of regulations to govern


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: No.
Mr. ItlEIGHEN: At all events, there was such a committee, and I am told that in the whole six years of the last Parliament they met on only two or three occasions, so that unless the cohimittee were to attend more sedulously to its work, or unless it had more work to do than had the last Standing Committee on Mines, I do not see how they would accomplish very much towards bringing the Mines Branch to a sense of its obligations.
Mr. W. A. BUCHANAN (Lethbridge). The Minister of the Interior (Mr. Meighen) has made allusion to the existence of natural gas in northern Alberta and has dealt with the statements made by the hon. member for East Lambton (Mr. Armstrong). I do not intend to make much reference to the natural gas resources of northern Alberta further than to say that in perhaps the most productive coal region of Alberta there is also a great quantity of natural gas, and that in the city of Medicine Hat practically all the fuel is natural gas; and the same may be said of the cities of Lethbridge and Calgary. In the city of Lethbridge there are also the greatest domestic coal mines of Alberta; so there is no doubt we have plenty of fuel resources in that part of Canada.
I feel it my duty to-night to allude to the coal resources, particularly of western Canada. I am not going to give any figures, but I would like to point out that there is no doubt that the mines in existence in western Canada at the present tiifie are capable of supplying all the needs of the western provinces, and undoubtedly they could supply some of the needs of eastern Canada. I am not quite sure, however, that it is feasible to ship western coal to the eastern market, because western coal up to the present time has been used wholly for the western market and it has not yet been established that it could be shipped and successfully compete with other coals in the eastern market. Its fuel quality is lost by storage and also by

transportation, and fjorn information I have I believe it would be a very costly coal by the time it reached Ontario. But I do feel this, that western coal could supply the market of western Canada and enable the eastern provinces to use a great amount of the coal that comes at the present time from Pennsylvania into the West. But difficulties are immediately met with. I do not know whether the members of this House realize that shipments of coal from Pennsylvania to western Canada have something to do with the rate on grain on the Great Lakes. The ships leave ports at the head of the lakes with grain from western Canada, but they want something to carry back, and at the present time they are carrying hack Pennsylvania coal at a very cheap rate. If they were unable to carry Pennsylvania coal it might mean an increase in the rate of grain going east along the Great Lakes; there is that fact to be considered in this matter. There is no question, however, that the coal resources of western Canada are quite capable of supplying the western Canada market. I have frequently seen in the constituency I represent a field of grain, and with it a coal mine-not a large mine, hut a mine that was supplying a good many farmers in that particular district.
We have mines of that character spread all through southern and Central Alberta, and I presume, also, through northern Alberta. Our western coal deposits start in Saskatchewan. We'have in Alberta the Lethbridge fields, the Drumheller fields, and the Crow's Nest fields, which are largely steam coal and coking coal. Then we have anthracite coal west of Calgary and west of Red Deer. There are also great deposits of coal in the Edmonton district and west of it. So that Alberta is particularly rich in its coal resources, and no province of western Canada is more capable of increasing production of coal than Alberta. I might point out that during this past season, when there was a demand for Pennsylvania coal for eastern Canada, there was a greater export of it into western Canada than the year previous.
I have had occasion before in this House to refer to the difficulty in connection with the operation of the mines regularly during these years. You are always going to have difficulties with labour, because labourers demand steady employment, which they do not secure in the mines of Alberta, -because the demand upon the mines of Alberta is made largely in the fall and winter months. The season slackens off in the early sDring and summer, and the mines are not work-

ed except on half or quarter time. Consequently hundreds of miners are out of employment during those months. If it were possible to store coal so that the mines could operate all through the year and store a supply of coal in Saskatchewan and Manitoba, it might be possible to operate the mines during the whole year, and provide steady employment for the miners, and I think the Government should direct its attention largely to this question of storage, because if it can solve that matter it will add a great deal to the production of coal the year round in Alberta. It is claimed that the coal produced in Alberta loses its fuel value when stored. But a number of propositions have been advanced which seem to me to be quite feasible, by which this can be overcome, and if it were overcome it would mean that the mines in that province could ship coal in the spring and summer months to large cities to the east of us and have it stored for use in the early winter; and this would enable them to keep up with the demand during the winter months. That is a matter to which I thiink the Government should pay considerable attention, and as there have been what appear to he very useful inventions made in connection with this matter of storing coal, I would suggest that the Government give the matter consideration. I have been discussing this question on several occasions in the House, and I do not know that I can say anything further. But I do not want the people of eastern Canada to run away with the idea that it is yet feasible to use western Canada coal in the eastern provinces. At the same time I would like to have that fact established, because the greater markets we have for our coal, not only in western Canada, but in eastern Canada, the greater would be the output from our mines, the more steady the employment of our miners, and the greater our wealth. But it is doubtful whether western Canada coal can be shipped to compete with Pennsylvania coal in the markets of eastern Canada.


Mr. J. C. DOUGLAS (Cape Breton South and Richmond):: I desire to congratulate
the mover of this resolution on bringing this very important subject to the attention of the House. I do not, however, desire to follow him in the various aspects of the subject with which the resolution deals, but more particularly to consider that portion of the resolution which reads:
That the deposits of bituminous and anthracite coal in Canada located in the extreme eastern and western portions thereof, be more

fully and thoroughly utilized for the benefit of the residents of the central provinces.
I take it that, in that connection, the most important, or at least one of the most important, duties that to-day devolves upon the Government is in regard to the increase in the production of coal within our own country. If there are three things most important for us I submit, they are the question of the supply of men, the supply of food, and the supply of fuel; and it is difficult to put any one of these propositions as first ahead of the others. But it is to the production of coal, particularly in eastern Canada, that I wish, for the time being, to direct the attention of the House. It is said that Canada consumes about thirty million tons of coal annually. Approximately one-half of this is produced in this country, and of that production of coal in Canada approximately one-half is produced in the far western part of the country, and the other part, approximately seven million tons, is produced in the extreme eastern part of Canada. Coal production in eastern Canada is confined almost exclusively to the counties of Pictou, Cumberland. Inverness and Cape Breton. Further analyzing it, it is confined, in a large measure, to one single cofinty in eastern Canada, namely, Cape Breton. It becomes particularly pertinent to inquire at this time whether or not everything is being done that ought to he done by the fuel administration and the Government to secure increased production of coal in eastern Canada. What I desire to submit for the consideration of the House is this: if the fuel controller, with his manifold duties, is charged only with the responsibility of borrowing coal from the United States, I would be inclined to think that, perhaps, he has not been entirely unsuccessful in his efforts; but if, as I take it, the prime duty of the fuel controller is to see that we in Canada produce our quota of coal and of fuel, then I say that, as far as eastern Nova Scotia is concerned, the fuel controller has not measured up to the occasion and to the conditions as they obtain. The facts are these: since 1913 the coal production in Nova Scotia has been gradually but surely diminishing. The coal sales in Nova Scotia for the five years past have been as follows:
Tons.
1913		 6,478,709
1914		 6,164,600
1915		 5.757,907
1916		 5,933,710
1917		 5,143,074
In other words, Mr. Speaker, since the outbreak of war, the results, with regard to production, during the four-year period from 1914 to 1917, were as follows:
	Decrease.	Increase.
1914	198.469 tons.	
1915	626,001 "	
1916		117,009 tons.
1917	692,811 "	
And, taking	the estimate for the provin-	
cial fiscal year of 1918, we find that the decreased production of bituminous coal in eastern Canada in comparison with the previous year will reach 600,000 tons. There has been a decrease in the production of coal in eastern Canada since the war broke out of upwards of 2,000,000 tons. Since the fuel controller took office in July of last year, there has been a decrease in production of 600,000 tons, and there is the estimate of a further reduction in output of 600.000 tons in 1918. Viewed from the standpoint of increased production-and that is one of the greatest questions that we should he dealing with at- the present time-the fuel controller and the administration, in regard [DOT]to fuel, have not been entirely successful. The decrease in output, in five years, amounted to 1,400,000 tons, and adding this to the decrease that is expected by the operators and the Mines Department in Nova Scotia this year, the total will exceed 2,000,000 tons.
The great question then, that we have to deal with in this connection is how we can increase the coal output in eastern Canada. This subject naturally divides itself under two heads: (1) Increase in the production of the mines now producing coal, and (2) the reopening of collieries not now producing coal. The collieries now operating might be made to produce a very considerable quantity of coal over that which is now being produced. You may a-sk me what is the reason why the Nova Scotia mines are not keeping up to their normal output. The reasons are well known, I am sure, to some hon. gentlemen here. I would say, that (1) production could be increased by compelling the coal companies and operators to more equitably deal with the employees under them; (2) by increasing the wages of certain classes of labour, particularly the underpaid men who are working in the collieries; and (3) by reducing the large overhead charges to which most of these companies are subject. I have one instance in mind of a company that produces 500,000 tons of coal and pays to its general manager a salary of $100,000. In other words, for every ton



of coal produced by thi3 company, the general manager receives twenty cents. Or, to put it in another' way: this company does not market all its output; it consumes
400.000 tons itself; it has a little less than
100.000 tons of coal to be sold in the markets, and its general manager receives as salary one dollar for every ton of coal produced by this company and sold in the market. Can you wonder that, under these conditions, there should be such unrest as has characterized the coal mine operations in eastern Canada for the last few years and particularly for the past few months?
I further submit as a suggestion that improved mining machinery should be brought into the various operating mines in Nova Scotia. Some of the coal companies are making exhorbitant profits while some of them are merely getting along under present conditions. I submit as a principle, these being war-time profits, that the companies that are making profits should be obliged to put back into the operation of their collieries by improved development and by improved mining machinery the amounts that they have received in excess of what would be normal profits under normal conditions. More encouragement should be given to the miners in the line of production and instructions whereby they might be made more competent to carry on the several operations in connection with mining.
It may be said by hon. gentlemen, as it is said by operators, that one of the prime difficulties encountered is the shortage of labour. 'It is true that there is a shortage of labour for mining operations, but tha't is not the only reason why there has been such a decrease in production. I submit that in the course of the three and one-half years during which we have been at war there should have been ample time for the making of miners. You can train men to work on the farm, and it is not any more difficult to make competent and skilful miners although it may take a little longer time. Nevertheless, there is a shortage of skilled miners that- might 'be offset by the fact that we have men of good physique growing up in the various occupations connected with mining who are capable of producing coal, running machines and performing the other operations in connection with mining. A man with a coal-mining machine can produce as much as 52 tons of coal a day. A hand-pick miner gets out a very few tons of coal per day in proportion. Why should there not be more mining machines introduced into the mines of Nova Scotia? As far as trans-

portation is concerned, why should the companies not be obliged to have box car loading apparatus? I am told that one of the difficulties in connection with the shipment of coal is that connected with transportation. The mining companies say that they are unable to get coal cars and consequently are obliged to. load their product into the box cars that are supplied by the railways. A small expenditure for the equipment of box car loaders would reduce the cost Of fuel by from twenty-five cents to thirty cents per ton. The goal companies should modernize themselves and get improved machinery with the profits they are getting which are largely war-time profits. It is the duty of the Government and of the fuel controller to see that increased production is brought about in the mines of -Nova Scotia.
What is needed in this country is a speeder-up. Just as they have in certain portions of the mining sections in England a speeder-up they ought to have a speeder-up here, a man with broad powers who is able to see that regulations, properly fiamed, are carried Out with a view to increased production.
"When you consider that the normal production of coal in Nova Scotia increased^at the rate of ten per cent every year for the last fifty to one hundred years, and that only when war broke out the collieries of that province did not even maintain their usual output but went behind to the extent of at least ten per cent per annum, I venture to say that if a speeder-up, with power such as I have suggested, is placed in charge of the situation in Nova Scotia, he will bring back its coal production tp the normal figure. He will not only do that, but he will gradually restore the increase of ten per cent which was witnessed for many years anterior to the war. I make that suggestion to the House, and I trust that the Government and the fuel controller's department, which is charged particularly with the responsibility of increasing the production of fuel, will give their best consideration to it.
Not only has speeding up been successful in England, but it has met with equally gratifying results in the province of Alberta. Owing to labour difficulties, Mr. Armstrong was placed in charge of the operations in one of the coal sections of Alberta, and what has been the result? I understand that there has been a great increased production in that section of the country. Bearing in mind the results obtained in England and Alberta, and with _ the prevailing situation in Nova Scotia, where

there are two million tons less coal produced to-day than before the war broke out, it becomes a pertinent matter that the Government should be properly advised, and it becomes their paramount duty to consider the appointment of a satisfactory man to speed up production in that part of Canada. Not only does that apply to the mines now operating, but there is also a situation to be met with respect to the mines that are not producing coal. These collieries might probably be divided into two classes:	first, the collieries that
closed down before the war broke out, and second, the collieries that closed down owing to the war panic and to other reasons. Take the former class, and I submit that with proper encouragement they could be made producing collieries within a very short time. Let me give you one instance in support of that statement. The Greenwood Coal Company, incorporated with a capital of $50,000, last year produced forty thousand tons of coal as a result of the Nova Scotia Government advancing them the sum of $25,000 to open their property. Within two years they have been able to refund the amount so advanced by the local Government with interest, and last year, as I say, they obtained an output of forty thousand tons. I think that this year, with the daily output now exceeding three hundred tons, they ought to produce tor the twelve months ninety to one hundred thousand tons of coal. The same policy if applied to other companies should be followed by equally gratifying results.
It may toe said, what has this to do with the matter of increasing coal production or the re-opening of coal mines? Under normal conditions, I admit, it is properly the duty of the provinces to deal with matters pertaining to mines, and particularly to coal; but when we are dealing with war conditions, I submit, as a reasonable proposition which will be accepted by the House, that it becomes the duty of the Federal Government to develop a proper policy for the increased production of fuel. I could give many specific instances where increased production would be Obtained; where in one case one hundred thousand tons of coal would Ibe secured within twelve months, and in other cases lesser amounts. Suffice it to say that in the counties of Cape Breton and Inverness there are collieries not now in operation that could be made, within a year, to produce from three to four hundred thousand tons. So that I say
49i
there are two problems facing the fuel 'administration:	one is 'to increase the
production of the mines now operating, and the other is to put the mines that are not operating into a condition where they may 'be made to produce; and I think I am not over-istating the matter wdien I suggest to the fuel controller and his department that a man, almost an autocrat in the powers conferred upon him, should be appointed to take hold of the *coal situation in eastern Canada-a man with power to make advances, to take over and operate collieries, to have supervision of methods of mining and so on. These suggestions, Mr. Speaker, I have made having in view increased production which I regard as one of the great essentials in connection with the w-ar administration at the present time. I have not attempted to deal with the general subject, and perhaps my remarks have been largely of a local nature; but they have to be largely of a local nature, in view of the fact that one third of the coal that is produced in Canada is produced locally- practically in the town in which I live. So that if there is a local aspect to my treatment of the subject it is due merely to that fact; but on the broad, national question of increased production, I submit, the Government and the fuel administration should see to it that increased production is obtained by the appointment of an energetic man with large and broad powers, in order to ensure that in 1918 our output will be gTeatly increased over that of the past year.


Mr. H. H. HALLADAY (Bow River, Alta.):: I had hoped that when the hon. minister at the head of the department having control of this subject was speaking this afternoon he would mention coal in some way in his discourse. He took up the gas and pulp question, but I failed to hear the word coal mentioned in his speech. I quite agree with my hon. friend from Lethbridge (Mr. Buchanan), when he says that Alberta is quite capable of furnishing western Canada with all the coal it requires; and this can be done without opening up a new mine or increasing the capacity of the present mines. The hon. member who introduced this motion gave us figures this afternoon of coal production in Alberta which are quite correct. We can produce in that province with the mines we have at present, twice .as much if not three times as much with one extra shift. The scarcity of coal is not the fault of the mines, but is due to lack of transportation, as. far as the Red Deer valley is concerned. We say that

during the last three weeks we have been unable to get trains from Calgary to Drumheller, the spot where the Red Deer Valley coal mines are. This railroad has been operating some five years and every spring it has been held up from one to three weeks. They have not had a train over that railroad for three weeks on account of twenty small bridges (being washed out. In conversation with the coal operators at Drumheller a short time ago, they advised me that with the present shift they could double their output if the Canadian Northern Railway would furnish the oars. They also said that if they were able to secure mine-operating machinery, such as box car loaders and diamond cutters, I believe they called them, they could double their output with the same number of men. It is not a question of opening up mines, but of being able to operate the mines we have and ship the coal. I would like to call the attention of the ministers to the fact that the operators need this coal-mining machinery, which is not manufactured in Canada. If some inducement could be offered to these people they would be able to purchase this machinery, but at the present high rate of duty they claim that they are unable to do so. I would go further: if they are unable to purchase this machinery, even with the duty off, it would be good business for the Government to purchase that machinery, sell it to the operators, and take payment in the shape of royalties. Coal is going to be needed. 1 understand that England shipped over to the port of New York some time last fall two shiploads of coal in order to coal vessels which were waiting to take back munitions. Now, if by taking the duty off this coal-mining machinery, or even by purchasing it to be installed in our western mines, and so bringing about the desired effect, I would very much favour that course.


Michael Clark: Mr. Speaker, I have been for nearly ten years in the Chamber, a colleague of my hon. friend from East Lambton (Mr. Armstrong) who introduced this resolution, and gave one of the ablest speeches, so far as form and delivery are concerned, that I have heard from him. I have listened to him frequently with pleasure, and have always admired his activity, energy and attention to detail, but I have scarcely ever been able to agree with his conclusions; and the resolution of to-day is no exception to what has been the unfortunate experience of the past. I sincerely and profoundly wish that my hon. friend, with his great ability, would
[(Mr. Halhiday ]
devote himself to the study of economics fundamentally and I am quite sure that I should soon have a very powerful colleague in the advocacy of free trade in this House.
Having for years endeavoured, with indifferent success, to carry economic light into the dark places of the other side of the House, I am not unwilling to make a slight attempt to explore the country which may be more thick and more difficult still. Mr. Speaker, a resolution like this and a debate like this on general principles are only possible in a protectionist country. The problem which seemed to engage the minds of the introducer of the motion and of my hon. friend from Regina (Mr. Cowan) who followed him, was the problem of scarcity in the midst of abundance. And when one comes to think of it, Sir, it is a problem. We have enough coal in Canada, I heard some one say during the reciprocity debates-to last the world two thousand years. Perhaps that was a slight exaggeration. In those same debates I used to say that if that was the case we need not bother much about certain of the arguments against reciprocity, because, unless protectionists mended their ways, they would be getting their fuel cheap enough long before that time. With all that coal, Sir, in the earth, we nevertheless have had circumstances during the past winter in which the people have been strained to death to get coal to keep themselves warm, in a climate that frequently goes to forty below zero. Well, now, Sir, that is a problem. And it strikes me that thoughtful men, approaching that problem with an open mind, would at once see that there is something radically wrong with the economic thought of the people of the country, and that is exactly my theory about what is wrong. My hon. friend from Cape Breton South (Mr. Douglas) has just told us that we have the melancholy spectacle in Nova Scotia of the amount of coal produced declining from year to year. There was a fine old member of this House, Mr. Carmichael, who enjoyed in an eminent degree the friendship of the right hon the leader of the Opposition (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) and he objected to a duty being put on coal and lost his seat for it in the province of Nova Scotia. Well, he wtould have had a better chance to keep his seat in western Canada, we have more enlightened people economically there. Personally, I prefer the heresy-if it was a heresy-of Mr. Carmichael to the present motion. You have, according to my hon. friend from Cape Breton, decreased production under a tariff. And yet we have a proposal brought before the House here

to-day that another form of protection should be applied in the shape of what is practically a bounty. The tariff has decreased the production-no getting away from that fact; we have just heard it stated by *a man who knows. You say: we cannot do it by tariff; let us give them some money to do it. Well, I daresay that any industry would be the better of any money you gave it, but my friend who advocates that, in what was a very able speech from his point of view-if you do not pay too much attention to what he said-also told us that it is more important to produce food even than fuel at this time. If I put it to him as tto what he would say to me if, representing the western constituencies, I came here to-night and said: Let the Government go into mining wheat on a' large scale we need food more than fuel-he would say: That is absurd, we are producing the wheat anyway. That is exactly the proper answer. If you will allow capital to take its own bourse under freedom you will produce, and produce all that your capital is capable of producing, by giving them markets in which to sell. There is no subject in the world on which there is so much confused thinking as on this question of protection and free trade. I remember during the reciprocity debates that my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster) in a very long speech, a speech of four hours duration-


George Eulas Foster: Oh, my!


Michael Clark: -objected to reciprocity on one particular ground, and that was that the United States would exhaust the resources of Canada-our raw material would all be sent over to the United States. The other side of the confused thinking is that hon. gentlemen come to this House to-day, and they get into an awful state about a little bit of coal finding its way from Pennsylvania to Saskatchewan So that they on their part object to exhausting the resources of the United States. I am so good a patriot and so much a believer in cheap coal that I would say: Take the duty off coal altogether and get all your coal from the United States, and then you will conserve the (Canadian product for future generations'. You will keep all our coal; you will be all that to the good. You will get cheap coal from the United States. You will exhaust the United States supply, and then you will have all this 2,000 years' supply left. My hon. friend from Regina (Mr. Cowan), defending himself needlessly in a very able speech against the charge of being parochial, said that he would desire to approach this subject not only from the local point of view, the provincial point of view, but as a Dominion-wide subject. Well, I thought to myself, my hon. Mend is very near the kingdom; he needs to take just another step and he will become a bigger man than his thought, and his programme will be a better one. He wants to make hi.s creed world-wide, and1 then he will become a free trader.
A tariff is, inevitably, an artificial restriction of .production. We have had the results stated to-night, so that we have to give a bounty as well as have a tariff. What is the real promoter of production? Trade is the real promoter of production. People produce only what they can sell, if they are right in the top story. You cannot promote production by artificial means. Not only is trade the real promoter of production, it is the only promoter of wealth. We sometimes, and indeed, we continually hear at the present time of production a6 if it were an. end in itself. Production is not an end in itself, and it is not even the source of wrealth. Trade is the source of wealth and the only source o,f the development- of great wealth. Let me give the House an example. A few years ago we produced in this country 300,000,000 bushels of wheat in one year. We use in this country only 60,000,000 bushels of wheat in- one year. Clearly, the 240,000,000 bushels of excess product over what we were able to use. that year in this country was not wealth until we could send it abroad and exchange it. It is only by being able to exchange it or trade it for something else that it becomes wealth. You have a still more striking illustration of that in Australia at the present moment. You have the product-wheat-of two years' crop stored in bags, and owing to the difficulties of transportation it cannot be exchanged, with the result that it is growing musty and rotting, and being wasted from the bags by rodents which are having access to it. It is so far from being wealth that it is an incumbrance in the hands of the people. Trade is the real promoter of production and the real and only promoter of wealth. I do not know, but I would suggest that the reason why they are not mining that coal in Saskatchewan, about which the hon. member for Regina (Mr. Cowan) has told us, is that they found it more profitable to mine wheat there. You do not need to give them money to make them wheat miners there. The market and the supply make them mine the wheat. It is possible in this connection to reduce tba protectionist theory to an absolute absurdity.


John Hampden Burnham: Does the hon. gentleman not believe in any such thing as control, food control, for instance?


Michael Clark: I believe in control of my speech when I have not something wise to say. I was saying, Sir, that it is possible to reduce to an absurdity the theory of protection that was advanced in this debate, by inference, if not by absolute statement. Hon. gentlemen who have spoken in support of this resolution have, all of them, gone on the theory that we should, if possible, produce in Canada all the coal we need. We do produce in Canada all the wheat we need. My hon. friend from Brantford (Mr. .Cockshutt) would certainly believe in producing in Canada all the agricultural implements we need, and the protectionist, who has any other goods to peddle, would believe in producing in Canada all of anything that we can use. But in that case, if it were possible to succeed, you would have a huge excess of all your products. Under the protectionist theory, what would you do with your excesses? The thing is so absurd on the face of it that I do not yet despair before I die of getting some light into this House. It is hard work, but I do not despair.
This is a serious, practical question for the people of this country at the present time, and while I am, as everybody knows, in favour of producing all we can for the conduct of the war, I do not want, to go about the matter in a senseless fashion. I think my hon. friend suggested that free mining implements would be a good thing in this country. We are very slow in this country. In the Argentine Republic they have not had a duty on mining tools for years, or if they have a duty at all, it is merely a nominal one. Just imagine the wisdom of people who think they will mine coal more easily if they make dear the implements with which they do their mining. I would sayHave a trial of freedom along the line of mining implements, if the question of production toe so important. There is the road to production. I pointed it out the other day in connection with food. The first step in increasing the production of food is to have free agricultural implements. I point it out again now, quoting the example of the Argentine Republic in connection with coal. Free the implements with which you produce coal; take off all the restrictions, but do not try to increase the production of coal by giving money away where the tariff has failed. The giving of money for the specific purpose of building up any

specific industry toy way of bounty, or whatever you call it, would, with the present demands on the public purse, be little short of an economic crime.
With regard to the coal question, I want to put in a word for the consumer. The protectionist is always looking to the producer. The only sound way of looking at this economic question is always to look to the consumer, because w'e are all consumers. We consume one hundred things where we only produce one, and if you look to the consumer and let capital take its free course, it will always find the line of least resistance. You will produce most in that way of all that your country is capable of producing, compatibly with marketing the produce.
At the .present juncture, I am looking at this from the point of view of the consumer, and if one goes into the houses of Ottawa and talks to the rank and file of the common people, one finds that the hardships of the war are coming very close to them in this matter of fuel. I cannot imagine any more insensate folly than to keep a duty on coal in a country like this, where the temperature goes down to forty and fifty below zero, and where the people in the capital city last year bad to suffer almost privation for the want of material to. keep themselves warm; I cannot imagine anything more absurd. The geographical position- of the two countries makes it an ideal case for no tariff. You have an imaginary boundary line between the United States and Canada of 3.000 miles. At one part of the boundary line you have coal to the south and you have not coal to the north, and at another part of the boundary line you have coal to the north and not coal to the south. Could anything be more foolish than to prevent the exchange across the line, and to endeavour to keep carrying the long distances in both the countries concerned? I cannot imagine anything more foolish under the sun, I repeat, than keeping a duty on coal at the present juncture.
Our people are beginning to feel the burden of the war. Why increase it to them? We are looking forward to a winter in which the privations of the people of Ottawa may be greater than they were last year. I recommend to the House that instead of giving away money along the old sweet path for the artifician promotion of any industry whatsoever, we should try first the simpler plan. One remembers in this connection the lines:
Oh, -how unlike the complex works of man, Heaven's easy, artless, unencumbered plan!

Free your implements. Free your coal; let it go across the border. The difficulties of the war, of course, enter into one's consideration ; we cannot alter them; they are with us. But we can help them out, and if I wanted to make sure, so far as I can see into this question, that I was going to make it easier for the consumers of coal in this country next winter than it was last winter I would say, take the duty off coal altogether, and let them go at this coal in the United States, and keep our own for future generations if capital ha's not found it profitable up to date to mine it.


John Hampden Burnham: Might I say in a brief and somewhat pre-sumptous reply-if I may call it so to my hon. friend from Red Deer, that he has proceeded on an entirely false -assumption which utterly and absolutely invalidates his. argument. If this world were composed of one nation; if the people were identical in their interests; if the different nations that exist at the present time were only different states of the same union his argument would undoubtedly be sound. But we are up against this fact: there exists in the world a certain human failing or weakness which is called business rivalry, and it is only necessary in order to prove my point to call the hon. gentleman's attention to one fact, and that is the death of agriculture in England. If Great Britain had properly protected her agriculture, and had not pursued the policy which the hon. gentleman has enunciated she would not be in the desperate position she is in today as regards food.


Michael Clark: While Germany is well off.


John Hampden Burnham: She would be in the
position of having developed and maintained a certain national industry, so that it would make no difference to her whether there was a German submarine policy or not, or whether Canada w.as in existence or not. But heretofore -she has proceeded on the assumption of my hon. friend, and endeavoured to feed the world on her manu-facture-s. You cannot live on Sheffield cutlery or on Manchester cotton goods, and the consequence was that when war came, the hon. gentleman's policy found that good old country in the desperate condition in regard to- food that she is in to-day. Had it n-ot been for that policy England would now be in a better position. It is one of the greatest possible c-a>ta-strophies that such a policy as my hon, friend has just enunciated has heretofore obtained in England.
My hon. friend -must be -a mathematician. He labours under the impression that free trade or trade policies are like the principle of the conservation of energy, that where something manifests itself there must be a compensation also, that there is a transformation but never a dissipation of energy. Now, that is not the case with regard to trade. Trade and the principles of trade can easily be suppressed, and the patent law alone ought to show him that the protection exercised by means of that law would itself dislocate all trade. You cannot lay down any such principles as he has laid down so long as you have national boundaries, so long ae there is one country up against another, so long as you have a number of countries in close rivalry one with another. Sweep away these boundaries, make humanity one, and what he says is true, provided that you can correct that other weakness of humanity, native greed. If only people will be considerate of each other, if only the Turks will spare the Armenians; if only the Armenians when they send up their prayers to -Heaven are considered -by the Almighty worthy of being spared and are spared- but the trouble is, when they send up their prayers to Heaven, month after month and year after year, the Almighty turns a deaf ear to -them, and Canada and the United States and every other country are asked to subscribe for their protection. Why, you ask at once, should we subscribe for their protection when the Almighty himself refuses to protect them? We must proceed to the -bottom of this thing, we must investigate the fundamental principles, and the one fundamental principle is this, that so long as there is this national rivalry throughout the world an easy natural -adjustment such as my hon. friend has referred to is altogether and absolutely out of the question.


Mr. A. R. McMASTER (Brome):: I had not intended to intervene in this debate, but I cannot allow to pass unchallenged the economic fallacies which I have heard enunciated by the hon. gentleman (Mr. Burnham). He first of all says that Great Britain in this war has been suffering from her free trade policy. Let me ask him this:	Are the people of Germany or of
Austria better fed to-day than are the people of England? I do not think so, unless our newspapers are leading us astray by wrong information. Let us review for a few brief moments the history of free trade in Great Britain.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order	.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER:: I must ask the hon. member to restrict his remarks upon the free trade policy of Great Britain, to what application it may have to the motion before the House.


Andrew Ross McMaster: The question of coal is before the House. Surely, Mr. Speaker, as a preliminary observation, I can set the hon. gentleman right as to the economic principles, or rather the fallacies and the heresies which he has enunciated.


George Eulas Foster: Just as an observation.


Andrew Ross McMaster: By way of observation. We have in Quebec notarial deeds, and those deeds sometimes start out with what are called preliminary observations, and mine will be a preliminary observation. Before they had free trade in England the people were starving, and the question before the British people for the first half of the nineteenth century was whether the population of Great Britain and Ireland would emigrate, or whether they would allow free foods to come in from abroad to feed the people at home, in exchange for the coal and manufactures of Great Britain. Hon. gentlemen will see that I have not departed far from the subject. It is quite true, as the hon. member for Peterborough (Mr. Burnham) says, that you cannot live off Sheffield cutlery. No, but you can exchange it for flour from the United States or Canada, and live on the flour. The British people were starving before they had free trade in England. The people of Great Britain had to have free interchange of foodstuffs for their coal and other articles before they could live. I desire to point out that Great Britain, through her policy of free trade in coal and other things, has been able, not only to finance herself, but, at the beginning of the war to finance the overseas dominions, including Canada, and also very largely her Allies. I think if there were anything required to show the*sound principle of the fiscal policy of the Old Country, it was the way she was able to stand the terrible financial strain caused by the war. I would not like to think that all economic truths had to be administered to this Government by the back door. I should like to show them that there are economic principles to be enunciated which they must meet face to face.


Mr. A. McGREGOR (Pictou):: As coal
production is the burning question to-night, and as I come from a coal producing county, I desire to make a few observations with
[ IM r. MciMa s te r. ]
regard to coal production in the county of Pictou, which I represent. With regard to the price of coal as arranged by the fuel controller or his agents, I understand the prices for the Acadia Coal Company are $6.60 for screened coal, $6.35 for run of mine and $5.25 for culm. If a measure-able proportion of this unreasonable increase went into the pockets of the mine workers, I would1 not complain and I believe the people would not complain. In discussing this matter with the accountant, who I understand went to Nova Scotia to investigate the cost of production at the different collieries, he gave the information that, in arriving at a price for the Acadia Coal Company, he estimated $100,000 for repairs or development work for the Allan Shaft mine, and $30,000 for another mine. The company to be reimbursed for said amount in three years. Also that he took into account the capitalization of the company which, I understand, to be five millions; that is three millions of preferred stock and two millions of common. In addition to this he has, no doubt, taken into account the large and highly paid official management of the company, which means very large overhead expense.	I
wish to object to the	method of
book-keeping as adopted by this expert. In the first place, the public, in my opinion, should not be called upon to reimburse the company to the extent of $130,000, or to pay dividends on the company's mistakes, or to pay__ dividends on millions of watered stock. Neither should they be called upon to pay excessive salaries to the management. It must be understood that the Acadia Coal Company are now producing only about 600 t-ons of coal per day, whereas, the official management is big enough for a company that could take care of the production of 6,000 tons per day. Taking the argument of this accountant, and figuring the cost of production on a basis of 600 tons per day, he has decided that the company should be paid $6.60 per ton for screened coal, $6.35 for run of mine, and $5.25 for culm coal. Following his methods and his contention, if the company further reduced their output to 300 tons per day, and closed down another mine, I presume he would fix the price at $13j20 per ton for screened coal, $12.70 for run of mine, and $10.50 for culm. One trouble with the Acadia Coal Company is that they have closed down two collieries; another is that their overhead expense is entirely too great, and entirely out of proportion to their production. Within the past three months from 300 to 400 mine workers have left the town of Stellar-

ton because they could not obtain employment. It is true they have had trouble in the mines they are now operating. In the recent explosion which took place at the Allan shafts 88 precious lives were lost. I believe the county of Pictou sustained a greater actual loss of life in this explosion than the county has suffered in this great war up to the present time. A large number of widows and children are left homeless and penniless, and no investigation has taken place up to the present time, except a coroner's inquest, conducted by an aged medical doctor, assisted by two lawyers who are favourable to the company. In my opinion there should at once be a thorough investigation of all their mining properties by mining engineers of the first class. I have no desire to cause any injustice to be done to any of the coal mining companies in the county of Pictou; it is my duty to see that fair consideration is given to the coal companies, but consumers must be protected.	,
I know it is necessary for the companies to receive a fair increase in the price of coal, but I wish to protest in the strongest possible manner against the price of coal as arranged by the fuel controller for the Acadia Coal Company. The solution of the situation in so far as the Acadia Coal Company are concerned is for them to produce more coal and increase their output. They hold a blanket lease of large and valuable mine areas which they will neither operate nor permit others to operate. I suggest that this Government should co-operate with the local government, and take over the extensive leases held by the Acadia Coal Company and appoint a commission to operate the mines for the benefit of the public, or hand the said leases over to firms who are competent and willing to operate such leases and produce coal at a fair and reasonable price. If the company is permitted to impose the present prices that are in my opinion entirely unjustiable, it will mean serious hardship to the people of the Maritime Provinces, and especially to the people of the county I have the honour to represent. Such increase, if authorized, will embarrass the manufacturers and discourage further industrial development. I understand the Minister of Railways and Canals has fixed the price to be paid by his department for the coal required for railway purposes. The people will expect this Government to protect their interests and arrange that the prices to be paid by the manufacturers, the dealers, and the public shall be in keeping with the price paid by the Government for their requirements.
Mr. J. W. EDWARD'S (Frontenac): I listened with the usual pleasure and interest to the remarks of my hon. friend from Red Deer (Mr. Clark) and while I cannot agree with his point of view on trade matters, I am free to confess that the hon. gentleman is not only persistent in advocating his free trade principles, but he is also consistent in advocating them, and no person doubts his thorough sincerity in holding the views which he does hold. I am precluded from going into the question of free trade, I understand, Mr. Speaker. I do not want to trespass upon your goodi nature in that regard. I may say, however, that it does strike me that in a country such as we have in Canada we must, in framing our tariff policy, whether in regard to coal or anything else, take into consideration our climatic conditions as compared with those of other countries with which Canada has to compete. I will not attempt to follow that up any farther, but what I rose to say in regard to the coal question was this: The hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Clark) said that last winter there were actually people in the capital city of Ottawa who were suffering from cold on account of a shortage of coal, and that he regarded it as the height of absurdity to have a duty on coal when people were suffering from a shortage of coal. He said that when at one part of the continent north of the boundary line there was coal and none south of it, and when at another part there was coal south of the line and none north of it, it was, under such conditions, absurd to have a duty on coal. As I understand it, there is no duty on the coal that the people use in their furnaces and in their stoves. Anthracite coal passes freely from the other side of the line into Canada without any duty. The duty is only on bituminous coal. The tariff is as follows:
Coal, bituminous, slack, such as 95 per cent will pass through a three-quarter inch screen, per ton, 10c; 12e; 14c.
These rates being the British preferential tariff, the intermediate tariff and the general tariff. Item 588:
Coal, bituminous, round and run of mine, and coal, n.o.p. per ton, 35c; 45c; 53c.
These are not classes of coal that are used toy people in warming their houses.


Michael Clark: I do not want
to make an unnecessary interruption, but I may say to my bon. friend that I am using a grate fire myself-the mornings are cold enough-and I am using tooth kinds of coal.


Mr. EDWARDS:: That may be true, but the hon. gentleman does not dispute my statement that in so far as his argument applies to people who are using coal for heating purposes in their houses, it falls down in that there is no duty on that class of coal. We did have trouble in this country last winter, but 'according to my idea it was due to the fact that there was a shortage of ears, that the United States had some 25,000 cars which should have been in Canada-they had that many more of our cars than we had of theirs. The great difficulty in obtaining coal for heating houses lay in the fact of the shortage of cars, the extreme winter and the days of blockade upon the railways on account of snow. I have no objection whatever to the hon. member for Red Deer holding views on trade matters. I give him credit for being perfectly sincere in his views. He is, at all events, always consistent. He is an out-and-out free trader, and he wants to see free trade in everything. That is a consistent view for him to take. He may hold that view if he chooses, but I do not think his argument was quite correct in so far as coal was concerned, because it left the impression that it was the duty on coal generally used by the people that was responsible, whereas there is no duty on that class of coal.


Mr. S. J. CROWE (Burrard):: Mr. Speaker, I do not intend to take very many minutes of the time of this House, but having listened to the hon. members from Nova Scotia, Saskatchewan and Alberta telling us what vast bodies of coal they have in those different provinces, I feel that I should tell the House that in British Columbia we have vast coal beds. Our climate is such that we do not require to burn so much coal as they do in Ontario, Quebec and some of the western provinces. If the people of these provinces have not sufficient coal next winter I would invite them to co-me to the Pacific coast, because we will have sufficient, heat to keep them quite warm. We have vast coal areas on Vancouver island, and besides supplying the lower mainland of British Columbia with coal, we ship as far south as San Francisco from 1,500,000 tons to 2,000,000 tons per year. You see, therefore, that we are not short of coal. The only thing we complain about is that the fuel controller does not keep down the price of coal to what it should be. In the city of Vancouver we pay $9 a ton for coal, and they only have to ship it forty miles across from Nanaimo. I think that is a question that

the fuel controller should look into and compel the mine owners to sell their coal at a less rate than they are charging. We have coal beds in the Nicola valley but we cannot ship our coal out from there because it costs too much to transport it to the larger centres of the province. We have coal in the Crow's Nest Pass from which they ship east. We have anthracite in northern British Columbia, in the Skeena river region. An American engineer has reported that there is almost ten times as much anthracite coal in the Skeena district as there is all kinds of coal in the whole province of Nova Scotia. I only wanted to inform the House that British Columbia is on the map when it comes to the question of coal.


Mr. J. A. MAHARG (Maple Creek):: Before mentioning the question of coal, I want to refer to one or two observations that were made by the hon. member for West Peterborough (Mr. Burnham). I would not have said anything in regard to his argument were it not for the slap that he gave to Great Britain. I think it is very unbecoming, to say the least, for any hon. gentleman in this House to abuse Great Britain at this particular time for the purpose of bolstering up the protectionist argument. It only goes to show that the protectionist is now, as he always has been, prepared to slap his very best friend at any time to bolster up his own argument in any way in which it can be done. If he had only taken the trouble to analyse the quantity of food that Great Britain had control of and disposed of since this war began, he would not have used the argument which he did use to-night. We all know what Great Britain has done in the matter of feeding her Allies, we all know what she did for years until the United States took over the feeding of Belgium, and we all know what she has done more recently in regard to Italy, and I think it ill becomes the hon. gentleman to use that kind of argument. He himself states that we should go to the bottom of this argument. The present is not the time for that, Mr. Speaker, but I only hope that opportunity will be afforded to us before the session closes of going to the bottom of the trade argument with the hon. member for Peterborough (Mr. Burnham). We will be very glad to do it if the opportunity is presented, and we will try very hard to kick the bottom clean out.
Coming to the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Clark), we all know his tendencies. I might not go as far as he would go in

the matter of free trade, but I will say this: I will trade with anybody that will trade with me anything from a jack knife, to as far as you like to go, across the international boundary or anywhere else. It makes no difference to me what it is; if it is business I am prepared to do it. But I think the hon. gentleman has misinterpreted the meaning of the words that the hon. member for Regina (Mr. Cowan) may have used, although personally I did not hear what that hon. gentleman said this afternoon. I may say this, however: People in Saskatchewan, eastern Saskatchewan particularly, are probably somewhat differently situated from the residents of Alberta. We have the long freight haul; the freight on the coal in eastern Saskatchewan amounts to practically as much per ton as the coal costs at the mine. We have, as has been stated, an abundance of lignite coal which when briquetted, we are given to understand, is quite equal in. heating qualities to Pennsylvania coal. I understand the argument has been advanced that we should produce all our own coal within our own boundaries. I quite agree with that argument, providing it can be produced in an economical way. But in the province of 'Saskatchewan that cannot be done at the present time. It is true that we have anthracite coal in western 'Canada, and our friends in Alberta claim it is equally as good1 as Pennsylvania anthracite. That is a matter of opinion. Personally T like Pennsylvania anthracite when I can get it; but thiat is neither here nor there. The available quantities of coal of that particular quality in Alberta cannot be produced in large enough quantities to meet the demands in the province for that class of coal. We have got to have anthracite coal there in the winter time. If we did not have Pennsylvania anthracite coal at this particular time we would have to consign to the scrap heap -our base-burner coal stoves that can only be used satisfactorily with anthracite, or similar type of coal. Briquettes, if we had them, would work very satisfactorily, and that is the argument advanced foy the hon. member for Regina this afternoon. I understand, not that there should be a bounty, not that there should be protection, but that there should be an experiment as it were, or a demonstration that the use of this lignite is commercially and economically feasible. We have been working along that line for some considerable time, but is is largely private capital that has been used and it has been an uphill job.
What is now asked is that the Government should undertake to give a demonstration on a commercial scale to show that that coal can be produced economically. We are given to understand that with proper equipment this coal can be produced at almost one-half of what we have to pay for the Pennsylvania anthracite, and that the two coals are about equal in burning qualities.
In regard to the fuel controller's restrictions I would like to say that, while 1 have not had it direct from the controller's office, press reports give us to understand that restrictions are to be placed on the amount of coal that the consumer may store at one time. I do not know whether such restriction is intended to apply to western 'Canada, but if it is, the fuel controller will have made one of the most serious mistakes that any man placed in charge of fuel, or anything else in Canada, has so far committed. I hope that the fuel controller does not intend' to go that far. We in western Canada have got-and we have been educating our people to carry out this, policy-to put in our winter supply of soft coal during the summer months. The statement is made that coal deteriorates in storage. There are some kinds that will not deteriorate to any appreciable extent in storage. There are large quantities of coal from southern and Central Alberta that will keep for months and months, for an entire year if you like, in ordinary storage; in a basement this coal will keep almost for an indefinite period. Some of the northern coals do not possess the same keeping qualities. However, the reason I have given is not the only one why such a restriction should not apply, at least to western Canada. I have another reason to cite in opposition to it. We consume immense quantities of coal in western Canada,, and at the time the people have usually been filling up their bins with coal they have also been moving their wheat out. That works all right in so far as bringing in the anthracite coal is concerned; they can take that back in the cars from Fort William and Port Arthur, and it does not make so much difference. But when it comes to taking cars for the Alberta coal it is an entirely different matter, and the amount of power and the number of cars used during the months of October and November corresponds to about the power and cars required to move anywhere from eight to twelve million bushels of wheat to the head of the lakes. You will, therefore, see how important the restriction in question is from that viewpoint, apart altogether from securing a

supply of fuel for the winter months. We had a serious situation in Western Canada some time ago, just as serious, if not more so, than you had here in Ontario last winter, and we have only prevented a recurrence of it by endeavouring to get our people to secure their supply of coal during the months of June, July and August. That surely should apply this year more than at any time in the past. Without doubt, immediately wheat starts to move in western Canada this year, not one particle of power, nor any cars, should be used in handling coal that could be avoided.
As I stated a minute ago, I have absolutely no objection whatever to bringing in mining machinery free.


John Allister Currie: Mining machinery has been on the free list for ten or fifteen years.


John Archibald Maharg: I am glad to know it; it helps to make the argument all the stronger. There are a lot of other things that also ought to be free of duty. If it is a good thing to bring in the implements of one industry free in order to stimulate it, the principle should apply all the way round. I am very glad, indeed, to know that.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I am not going to get back into the matter of protection at all. But our protectionist people are always ready to remove the protection on everything that comes their particular way. I will just give you one illustration. I was talking to a British Columbia fruit grower, and incidentally the matter of protection on fruit came up, and he wanted to know what the western members were going to do about it. Perhaps he had been a little terrorized, I am not sure, but he had an idea that we were going to do something in the matter of duties. I told him that I did not know what they were going to do. He said: " You can remove the duty on any old thing you like, but for heaven's sake don't touch fruit." He was an absolute free trader so long as free trade did not apply to fruit. If it did, he immediately switched around. That is about the position we are in in western Canada, in so far as the fuel situation is concerned. All that we are asking is that the Government will at least demonstrate that the large and almost inexhaustible lignite coal fields in southern 'Saskatchewan can be put on the map as a commercial industry in order that we may not be entirely dependent on American anthracite coal to heat our homes during the winter. We must have either anthracite, or a substitute for it, a fuel that will keep up a continuous
[Mr. Maharg.}
fire anywhere from sixteen to twenty-four hours.


Mr. L. A. LAPOINTE (St. James):: Mr. Speaker, I have heard several hon. gentlemen from Nova Scotia, Saskatchewan, Ontario and British Columbia speak on this coal question, some of them offering their coal to the province of Quebec and to the other provinces of the Dominion which have no coal mines. After listening to these hon. gentlemen, I ask myself if they have made any practical suggestion in the course of their long or short speeches. Has it occurred to this Government, which seems to want to take charge of everything, to pass even, an Order in Council to relieve the city of Montreal from a fuel shortage? I am speaking particularly of soft coal. The industries of Montreal depend on the mines of the Maritime Provinces for their supply of coal. They are compelled to bring in this coal during the season of navigation, although we know that just across the line, as my hon. friend from Red Deer (Mr. Michael Clark) has said, only an imaginary line, there is coal. I am going to make a -constructive suggestion: why not blot out this imaginary line during the war? Are we not at war equally with the United States? If so, let us help one another. In -this way we may save the situation and relieve Montreal of the problem of a coal shortage such as it had last winter. I propose, as a practical proposition, the removal of the duty during
10 p.m. the war, so that we can get from the other side of the imaginary line the coal to satisfy the industries of Canada. I say that Montreal is suffering to-day from shortage of coal. We are paying more for gas and for light on account of this shortage. And we look to this Government, this Government of great men, to do something practical by blotting out this duty during the war. That is all I am going to say, because I do not want to be accused of making a -long speech. But we are expecting something practical from the Government in the sense of what I have been talking about.
Mr. ROBERT H. BUTTS (Cape Breton South and Richmond):	Mr. Speaker, I
think that British Columbia fruit grower, to whom my hon. friend (Mr. Maharg) referred a little while ago, who was satisfied to have free trade in everything but fruit, is typical of free traders, and, in reply to my hon. friend (Mr. L. A. Lapointe), who has just referred to Montreal and the coal situation there, let me ask him to recall the situation with respect to coal in the

city of Montreal eome few years ago. In the year when Mr. Fielding and the late Mr. Paterson went down to Washington to negotiate the reciprocity treaty, in the month of April, the city of Montreal called for tenders for the eupply of coal for the city for one year. The Dominion Coal Company was the only Canadian tenderer. There were one or more American tenderers, and the city of Montreal bought its coal from the American tenderer that year at 31 cents a ton less than the Dominion Coal Company's tender, so I do not think Montreal is suffering so very much from this "imaginary line."
Now, I have been struck by a number of statements that were made by these free traders, and it was only when they announced themselves as such that I thought they were free traders, for they did not argue along those lines. My hon. friend from Red Deer (Mr. M. Clark) says that trade is the basis of wealth. That may be. But how are you going to trade if you do not produce? I think production is at the bottom of the whole matter. I think my hon. friend has forgotten a few of the principles that he learned from Adam Smith, and it is pretty nearly time for him to reread the Wealth of Nations. I think, Mr. Speaker, when we come to consider the whole matter, as far as eastern Nova Scotia is concerned, there are one or two things that are at the bottom of our declining production. One is the matter of transportation. I know myself that, in the month of June, 1917, the Dominion Coal Company were in straits as to shipping. A certain amount of their shipping had been commandeered for war purposes, and I know that they were making very,' very strong appeals to the Government of the day to have returned a number of their ships in order that they might transport their coal up the St. Lawrence. It is true that that may not have hampered production at the time; that might not have been the immediate cause of the slackening production, because at the time a large number of their men had enlisted, so that the Dominion Coal Company lost some thousands of employees, and perhaps had all their men remained there, together with the commandeering, the situation might have been very much more serious. The only reason in the world why they have not suffered during tlhe two last years for the want of shipping, is simply that into Sydney Harbour comes a very, very large amount of shipping. Almost every week or so, thirty, thirty-one, and, as high as thirty-nine, ships, varying
in tonnage from 7,000 to 17,000 tons, assemble there to be convoyed across the ocean. These ships all fill their bunkers there. Therefore, the question of transportation was not such a very serious one during the last year or two. "
But with respect to the production of coal at least in Cape Breton county, there is a more serious question than that. The Nova Scotia Steel Company and the Dominion Iron and Steel Company are the two principal producers of coal in the province of Nova Scotia. They have coal areas so interlaced on either side of the harbour that the production of coal by either is hampered. So far as that is concerned, the suggestion of my hon. friend from Pictou (Mr. McGregor) is a very .timely one, namely, that the Government might possibly co-operate with the local Government to see if there is not some remedy for an evil which has really been tying up and hampering the production of coal in the county of Cape Breton.
One hon. member referred to the overhead charges of some of those companies. Not more than a couple of months ago a financial paper-I forget the name-came out with a photograph of Mr. Crockard, the new general manager of the Nova Scotia Steel Company. Under the photograph was given the amount of his salary, $100,000 a year. One hundred thousand dollars a year to manage that little twopenny-halfpenny company-.a larger salary than the President of the United States receives ! As my hon. friend has pointed out, that represents twenty cents a ton on every ton of coal mined by that company, or a dollar a ton on every ton of coal that they sell, and they sell all they can over and above what they consume themselves in the steel works. The country has to pay for that. It is twenty cents additional on. each ton of coal. That is only one case, for all through the company you will find officials with salaries growing gradually smaller, but still large. If you stood at the street car when the people began pouring out of the general offices, you would think there was staff enough to manage the Standard Oil Company. There are young men there by the dozen, and no one knows what they are doing. Probably they should be at the front.
The question of transportation is very important, for, after all, we ship coal from Sydney harbour, approximately only eight months in a year. Sometimes we can ship for nine months. On the northern side of the harbour the coal can sometimes l>e shipped for ten months. The fuel con-

troller goes down	to Nova Scotia,
and lie sets prices on coal regardless of the enormous, the stupendous blunders that are from day to day being committed by the management. Take, for instance, to-day - the Nova Scotia Steel Company with four mines and nineteen mine managers. If you go down to their steel (works at Sydney mines, you can find one piece of machinery which, when completed, cost $750,000, which has never earned a five dollar bill and which is now on the scrap heap. If they continue for a few more years their blunders for which the people of eastern Canada are paying every day, they will have more dollars in their scrap heap "than in their coal seams.


An hon. MEMBER:: They will require
more protection.


Mr. BUTTS:: They will require more
protection from their own follies. Labour is another great problem there, and it is certainly hard to understand how, under present circumstances, we can supply an adequate quantity of labour. We do not wish to see an inferior class of people brought into the country. We want the country to remain the white man's country. We do not want to see coolie or Chinese labour brought in. We wish to see the standard of our population maintained as high as it is at present and, if possible, improved. The only solution I can see for the difficulty is to encourage production by having cheap mining machinery, as suggested by my hon. friend from Pictou (Mr. McGregor). Cheap mining machinery is something over which, as has been stated, the Government has no control, as at the present time there is no duty upon it. I wish to refer to some of the very peculiar statements that have been made. Great Britain, before free trade, was starving. The miners of Nova Scotia, before protection, were not very far from the mark. I wonder if my hon. friend can explain the paradox. It is a strange thing that but a short time ago an auditor was sent down to some of our mines in Cape Breton -I speak now for the consuming public generally. This auditor, on his return, stated that the Acadia 'Coal Company, for instance, was selling coal at the rate of $6.35 a ton net, run of mine. He made the further statement that the company was losing $1.50 a ton at that price. It may be very generous on the part of the Acadia Coal Company to supply the community at large with coal at a loss of $1.50 a ton, but such generosity, if it exists, is something that I should like to see ex-

plained. I should like, at the same time, any person to explain to me how it ,is that the cost of production of coal in any mine in Nova Scotia ever came to even $4 a ton. I have been buying coal now for a very considerable length of time, and I have yet to put in my cellar the first ton of coal that ever cost me $4.50. At present I can put coal in my cellar at $3.60 a ton, and the coal company is not selling at a loss. Yet this auditor tells us that he has set a price for them of $6.35 per ton of 2,000 pounds. It is not very long ago since the Dominion Coal Company was able to put over their wharves at Sydney, after transporting it by rail for 17 miles from their mine, coal at $1.12 a ton. The only way the problem can be explained is that the companies down theTe took this auditor out for a walk.
I think perhaps the only real suggestion I have heard in the course of this debate, with reference to the coal product of eastern Canada, came from my hon. friend from Pictou (Mr. McGregor) who suggested that this Government get in touch with the Nova Scotia government and see if some changes could not be made in the mining laws of that province to change the leases and facilitate the mining of coal, and perhaps remove a great many of the obstructions the coal cfompanies have had to contend with up to the present time. There is considerable talk in the newspapers from time to time about a merger between the Dominion Iron and Steel Company and the Nova Scotia Coal and Steel Company. I do hot know whether it is likely to come to anything or not, nor do I care just now to say whether on general grounds it would be a good thing or not, but I do say that it would at least be a cure for the interlacing of leases, and in that way might materially increase the production of coal. Possibly the conscripting of labour might be looked into when we are considering what can be done to increase the production of coal in this country. There is room for a great many more mine hands and coal workers. The occupation, of course, requires a very considerable amount of skill, particularly the underground work, and it occurred to me, when our western friends were talking about their miners working only one-half or one-third or one-quarter time, that perhaps the best remedy might be for them to send down to eastern Canada a lot of their very best miners, and we will give them employment the year round.


George Eulas Foster: I am not going to make any extended remarks, but it seems

necessary to say a word or two in this debate. The speakers have travelled over wide ground, and I am not going to follow them, especially along the lines of a free trade or protectionist discussion. We never would know the particular virtue in my hon. friend from Red Deer (Mr. Michael Clark) unless in the course of his speech he drew a little from the fountain head and source of the economic instruction which he got in Old England before he came to ..this country. We would lose a great deal of his fire and vigour and peculiar force if he did not drink of that fountain and give us the results of the stimulation gained therefrom. After all, my hon. friend from Red Deer must on'e in a while settle back and think something like this: Is it possible that all the rest of the world opposed to me is wrong and that I, with those who agree with me, am the only one who is right? He has had a long period in which to indoctrinate the gentlemen on the other side of the House, and with all his vigour he has attempted also to indoctrinate the gentlemen on this side; but I think it will be a long, long while before, he gets every one to agree with him that his particular brand of economics is the only true and genuine one. However, I am not going to carry on the discussion along the lines of free trade or protection, because that is not particularly the thing for us to consider at this time. We have come up against a set of circumstances in our country into which very many different factors enter, and we cannot ;see the whole question properly unless we take a pretty broad view of all the facts. To simply take one and follow it up and found an argument on that will lead us, I think, to a mistaken conclusion. It is very difficult indeed for us to get an all-round view and come to the proper conclusion to be drawn from such a view, but I am just going to mention two or three things that occurred to me during the. debate.
Some one raised the question as to what the fuel controller was appointed for, and came to the conclusion that his chief duty was to stimulate and increase the production of coal. Now I do not think that was the object in view in appointing the fuel controller. We are peculiarly situated here. Bring out all the coal we possibly can from west, middle and east, but such are the circumstances of this country as regards distance and transport that unless we have a large importation of coal from the United States we shall have difficulties before the season is over.
In that country, to which we look for a surplus of coal to make up our deficit of fifteen or sixteen million tons, there are also peculiar conditions. My hon. friend from Montreal thinks the -whole thing would be solved by -taking the duty off coal and letting it come .into Montreal and other parts of Canada free. So far as preventing a shortage of coal in this country is -concerned, that would not affect the present situation one single bit because the trouble in the United States is to -get the supply of coal that we require to keep up the motive-power of our industries and the warmth of our	dwellings.	So whether there
was a duty ox not, it would not help to provide that amount in the United States which we require. The fuel controller was primarily appointed to -see by all possible fair means that we so put our case before the United States authorities that we -would receive an allotment of some 16,000,000 tons of coal a year for every year this war is on. That was his primary duty; that duty he set himself to perform, and that duty both last year and this he has absolutely well and perfectly performed. I would like the House to remember that. Unless we had succeeded in putting our case in such a way, and arranging matters in such a way, that the United States might use that allocation, we would have been in very great trouble and at very great disadvantage. We have certainly been saved from that position, first, by the eminently fair and sympathetic way in which the United States authorities have met us, and, secondly, by the way in which-and I think the perfectly good and reasonable way in which

Mr. Magrath, the fuel controller, approached the United States authorities, and put Canada's case before them. As to that part of his duty, I do not think any hon. member in this House who has any spirit of fairness at all-and we all have that-will find any fault with the fuel controller. Outside of that, the duty of the fuel controller was, as far as possible, to see th-at the distribution of this imported coal went to the districts that needed it, in such equitable and fair proportions as would give to each district its due, without congesting any, or starving others. In that respect., I think the fuel controller's exertions have been rewarded with success. Remember it was not the duty of the fuel controller to pick up a ton of coal somewhere in the United States -and land it in the cellar of the man in Canada who wanted to bum it. He was to provide the coal, so that it could toe available for the transport man, and the merchant to bring -away, so

that the importer and the dealer rvonld have his supply of coal. It was not Mr. Magrath's duty at all to provide for the transport of that coal, and I think he has been somewhat unfairly criticised, because different transport conditions prevailed last year from those which had heretofore prevailed, and caused a great proportion of the disadvantage and confusion, and of the shortage, and in some cases the privation, which occurred in the supply of coal in this country; but in so far as the supply of coal itself was concerned, Mr. Magrath obtained last year for Canada within a few tons as much as she had the preceding year. Some people have expressed their anxiety lest this year we should be in privation and have trouble again.	If things go on
ordinarily well-the word "ordinarily" being taken in conjunction with these present disturbed conditions in both countries -and if there is not greater trouble in transport and other things than last year, Canada will get her allotment from the United States for the year 1918-19, and the fuel controller will see to it, as he did last year, that that coal is equitably, rationably and reasonably distributed "where it is wanted. Then, outside of the duty of making provision for the imported coal, and the distribution of it, it is also the duty of the fuel controller to control as far ias he reasonably can the prices, and he is given authority by Order in Council to fix the prices, and. the principle upon which prices are fixed is exactly the principle upon which prices are fixed in the United States. As far as is possible, the fuel controller there, as here, gete at the cost of production in the several mines, and different mines have different coste of production. In the United States, as in this country, different prices are put upon the coal as it is produced from different mines, because of these generic differences in the mines themselves. The principle is this: You find the cost of production and then allow reasonable amount for the profit of the distributor, seeing that distributors do not multiply the profits, one from the other, and the profit of the producer. The fuel controller of this country is carrying out the same principle, and he is fixing his prices upon the very same principle as that adopted in the United States. If mines differ, and if there be faults in human agencies, as there will'be, it may very well happen that a fuel controller, attempting to fix the prices in the different sections and mines of this country, having to depend, in [DOT]the first place, upon the calculation of cost, and adding the prices Or profits that are tSir George Foster.]
reasonably allowable, may make mistakes. If he does, he has a chance to revise, but in the majority of instances it will be fair to assume that if his calculations of cost are correct, then, as a matter of course, the prices that are fixed, with the reasonable profits added to the cost, will be what may be called reasonable and equitable .prices. With reference to production, not only has the fuel controller these principal objects in mind, tout he is doing every thing that one man can possibly do to speed up production. But his powers of speeding up production are not as large as they possibly might be, and it may very well happen that one fuel controller is not able to handle the wdiole business that I have been talking about, and at the same time effect what my hon. friend from Cape Breton (Mr. McGregor) describes as a "speed-up." I cannot speak from an intimate knowledge of the whole mining industry, and my statements are merely impressions, but from what I have learned during the last two years, I think there is need for more co-ordination and for some general principle of directive power to be brought to bear upon the coalmining industry in this country, to make sure that coal mining is carried on in a scientific way, with a due regard to economy of production, and to scientific methods of production. There are also, I am led to believe-and I think it may be true-certain anomalies iin the relation of certain coalmining companies to other coal-mining companies, and if what has been stated here as to the matter of salaries is correct, it may very well be that there is some anomaly in that respect, and we ought to have some overhand directive power to correct it, if it is necessary to do that. I think that a fair method of co-operation between the provincial authorities in Nova Scotia, which have so much to do with mines and have such an interest in them, and the Dominion authorities might very well be aimed at, in order to get at the best result. We have on the 17th of this montlh a conference of all the operators of labour connected with the industry, and of transport people connected with the carrying and distribution of coal here in the city of Ottawa. That has been called for the purpose of taking the whole question into consideration and arriving at some method by which better results than we have had hitherto may be obtained for this year and succeeding years. But we must remember that we have difficulties iin labour, difficulties in transport and difficulties in distribution in this country. It is impossible for us to forget it when

we are taking this whole question into consideration. In reference to what the Government should do, or may do, we all know that there is a good deal said that is very general in its character.


John Carey Douglas: I would like to ask the right hon. gentleman if he can inform the House as to what the estimated increase in production is in the United States for 1918 as compared with 1917?
.Sir GEORGE FOSTER: I could give my hon. friend only a general idea. In the United States, from circumstances that have arisen there, they require at least one hundred million tons more to be produced this year than last year. Sc far as it goes from month to month, there is sometimes' a decrease and sometimes an increase compared with the same months of last year. I noticed just to-day that in the month of [DOT] March there was a considerable increase in anthracite coal as compared with March of last year. My impression is, however, that, on the whole, they will have an increased production in the United States this year, if things go as smoothly as they hope in labour and in transport matters, of fifty million tons, and they are trying to eliminate waste and restrict use so as to make a saving of another fifty million tons. But the thing changes so very rapidly from week to week and month to month that it is pretty difficult to get at anything more than a merely approximate estimate. I do not know whether I have satisfactorily answered my hon. friend, tout Is have made a dash at it.
I was speaking about the ideas that are put forward as to what the Government should do. It is such an easy thing to say that what the Government ought to do is to see that there is the greatest possible development of electrical energy, that there is the greatest possible production of gas-I mean gas for motive power purposes-that there is the greatest possible need for production of coal and for saving and the like of that. The hon. member for Maisonneuve (Mr. Lemieux) is anxious that the people should be taught to gather wood and burn that. Excellent advice, but the Government is not able to do all these things.
Some arguments fell from hon. gentlemen this afternoon from which is deducible the idea that we should go to work and open coal mines and run them, open gas wells and run them and develop electrical poweT and things of that sort. When the Mines Branch was under discussion there seemed
to be a drift on the part of some hon. members towards the view that the Mines Branch was to be a general operating, working and developing piece of machinery which would have money at its disposal to develop whatever mines were necessary after the deposits had been found, and that it would become a great working force. Well, I think there is some point at which we must make a stand in that respect. There are some things that Governments can do and some things that they cannot do. In this time of war jvhat this Government cannot do is to put money into the development of iron properties, or platinum properties or any other great properties and, with their own work and their own capital, develop them and sell the proceeds. It seems- to me that what the Mines Department is for is to search out diligently and find the deposits of value, explain and elucidate these, their qualities and extent, make them known generally, and then allow capital to go to work and develop them. That is the aim of the departments as they are run in Ottawa and I think in every country.
Now, the Government proposes to go a little farther than that in the matter of coal. We have heard discussed to-day the quality of the low grade lignite in Saskatchewan which, if it is amenable to the process of successful briquetting will solve the question in so far as briquetting goes for the whole of the lignite coal of Saskatchewan and Alberta. The Government proposes, in co-operation with Manitoba and Saskatchewan, to put in an experimental unit or two for producing briquettes at or near Estevan. From the investigation which was made by the Department of Mines, by the Advisory Council of Scientific Research, and after careful study by other forces and elements in the country, the conclusion has been arrived at that it is as nearly certain as it can be that there is a process by which that coal can be put into a condition where it will rival anthracite and do the work that anthracite now does. The Government in a case like that thinke that it ie justified in taking that up and, as an experiment, trying to put it upon a commercial foundation and proving its practicability. I think it will then be a matter for consideration whether it will cany it on ae a government industry, whether the local governments will carry it on as a local government industry, or whether, having demonstrated the feasibility of the procese .and opened up the field to capital, municipal, corporation or otherwise, it will be



left for the usual channels of business to develop it and carry it on.


John Archibald Maharg: Do you propose doing
that in the near future so that we will be able to reap some benefit by next winter?


George Eulas Foster: Yes, I suppose that it will take a year to instal the whole of the equipment and get it into working order but it is the intention of the Government to organize it at once and go on with the experiment. What has been proven by laboratory work, and -what is a little more extensive than ordinary laboratory work, is that you can take this lignite at Estevan, carbonize it, put it into the shape of briquettes with a suitable binder and you can do it at a cost of somewhere between $6 and $7 per ton of briquettes. The value, as compared with anthracite, I think, is about equal. If you can do that at a cost of $7 at Estevan, you can put it into Regina at a cost which will certainly be less than that at which you can put anthracite there. Free trader or protectionist, I do not care a hang which, every man will hold up his hand for that as being good business. If you can do that out of comparatively worthless coal near your own doors and save to these three provinces $7,000,000 or $8,000,000 instead of having that money go out of your country, if you do that by developing the lignites in your own country, give the people a better coal, do away with those long hauls which are so uneconomical, and if you can get the stuff you want with a shorter haul, surely it is good business to do it. That is what the Government proposes to do in that respect. If the Government does that, and does nothing more, and if it proves to 'be a commercial success, it will have given a great boon to that country for all time to come. It will put the people out there in the position where they can have that kind of coal which is not only tidy and neat, but which is pleasing to the eye and grateful to the (body for the warmth which it gives. It will give them these advantages from the coal right in their own district, which is inexhaustible in quantity.
I do not want to prolong my remarks. I felt that it was necessary to say something with reference to the matter, particularly with reference to this last question, which is a practical thing. My own idea is that there was a great deal of wisdom in the remarks that were made 'by my hon. friend from Cape Breton, and that there is a possible way in which, gradually but surely, we may bring the coal mining industry in ' this country where it will serve our own
[Sir George Foster.!
wants and make us independent of any contretemps, any situations which might possibly arise in future as between us and other countries of supply. In a way it is a fair thing for Canada to think that the coail measures in the United States are not inexhaustible. Canada has coal measures, which, of their kind, are practically inexhaustible, and in the years of the future she will have to depend more upon herself; and it is well that this country should begin as quickly as possible to put her producing machinery in order to co-ordinate the use of coal and get along towards the point where she will supply herself.


Mr. A. B. COPP (Westmorland):: I
merely wish to ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce a question. I followed him very closely in his explanation of the duties of the food controller up to the point ' where he had arranged with the United States authorities to set aside fifteen or sixteen million tons per year for the use of Canada. The controller's next step was to distribute that quantity of coal, and I would ask the minister how far the distribution goes, whether it is to the provinces, towns, or localities, and how closely the controller follows that distribution.


George Eulas Foster: He follows distribution in this way: He does not either create or call into being coal carriers or coal distributors

they are in our towns and cities and outlying places. The system of gathering information tells him about the needs of each one of these communities -what they had last year, and what they have for this year-and he sees as far as he possibly can that each one of these sections gets its reasonable quota as compared with the preceding year. That is the' way the system operates: It follows along in a natural channel, but it also is guided by the controller in the distribution to these centres of supply.


Arthur Bliss Copp: And the dealers will look after getting their orders filled, and getting the coal to their locality?
-Sir GEORGE FOSTER:	Yes. And the
controller holds a supervising power over the dealer from the time the coal gets into this country until it reaches the consumer. He holds the power of preventing unreasonable charges, and there is also this power that he has: If it so happens that in a district one part of that community may be in the way of filling its cellars while another part of the same community has but little or none, the controller has the power to say how much shall go, or the maxi-

mum quantity beyond which it shall not go; and if there is hoarding, and it comes to his knowledge that one person is suffering and has nothing and the other person has his bin full, he has power to take out from that bin and distribute a portion of the coal to the suffering one. Those are his general supervising powers.


Mr. J. F. REID ((Mackenzie, Sask.):: I
intended to submit a question but I am very glad indeed that the Minister of Trade and Commerce, by his statement, has relieved me from the necessity of doing so. It was with reference to an item that appeared ill the Saskatoon Star of April the 10th, stating that the Dominion Govern-men, in unison with the Governments of Manitoba and Saskatchewan, were establishing a plan which the minister has just told us they have already entered into. I wish to congratulate the Government on that policy which will .be received by the people of the West with a great deal of cordiality, because we have in Saskatchewan,, as the minister said, an unlimited amount of lignite coal which should be capable of being utilized to the very greatest advantage.
I understand the fuel controller has sent orders to the coal dealers in the West not to sell to any one person more than one-thirtieth of the annual supply of coal which he requires. If such is the case it will work very great hardship in the West.


George Eulas Foster: With my hon. friend's permission I will say that I do not think there is any such regulation as that, or that any regulation is set down in that way at all, but, I think, there is general supervising power. There is another thing, if my hon. friend will excuse me for a moment: A fuel controller cannot sit at Ottawa, or any other one place, and stretch his hand over the whole of this country and look after every supply centre. He is working in conjunction and with the cooperation of the provinces, and so each province is asked to, and has consented, to appoint a fuel supervisor, and each municipality has been asked to appoint a fuel commissioner. These all work together from the place of demand in each municipality, city, town or province, as to the amount which is to be allowed, as to what may be given for one section and jnay not he given for another; and it will depend very largely upon the recommendation and thought of the one who is nearest to the centre of demand. That probably explains
50i
part of the question my hon. friend has asked.


John Flaws Reid: I am very glad to have this information. It was very plainly stated by the hon. member for Maple Creek (Mr. Maharg) that in the West during the summer months it is absolutely necessary for us to stock up with our supply of coal for the year, because at that season the freight and box cars are standing idle, and we may as well have the use of them as far as possible in bringing in coal. If transportation is interfered with and the settlers are crying out for coal in the fall when the cars should be carrying our wheat to the East, it will be a very serious thing.


George Eulas Foster: My hon. friend need not have any fear about that, because the fuel controller is just as anxious that coal shall be got in early during the summer months as any person out there could very well be.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I feel it my duty to remind) hon. members that the House has not got into committee.


John Flaws Reid: I hope you will pardon me, Mr. Speaker. I am a new member of the House, and I shall be glad to be corrected at any time if I fall into error.


George Eulas Foster: It was I whom Mr. Speaker was correcting, and I deserved it too.


John Flaws Reid: I want to make a reference to the statement of the hon. member for Cape Breton (Mr. Butts), who said we did not want Chinese or coolie labour. I do not think, Mr. Speaker, that this is an opportune time to make that statement, because I understand that at the present time we have over in France some 80,000 or more Chinese labourers, and it seems to me that it does not matter very much whether they are building railroads to aid us in bringing this great war to a successful conclusion, or mining coal for us in this country. And I am afraid, Mr. Speaker, that if this war continues, Canada will be very glad to have coolie labour to do our work while our boys go to France to fight our battles. I do not think that I have anything more to say, and I am very glad indeed to hear the statement made by the Minister of Trade and Commerce in regard to the briquetting plant.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
George Eulas Foster: I am not sure whether there was any hard and fast arrangement that w* should take up any
7 tS

thing more to-night. We have spent a goodly portion of the day on this burning question, and perhaps my hon. friends opposite are satisfied to adjourn now.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The only arrangement was that which I made with the right hon. gentleman the leader of the House at the beginning of this evening's sitting, which was that., for the time being, I should drop motion No. 5, but that I should proceed with No. 7. If we do not go any further this evening, I am afraid that the Government will be taking Mondays. If my hon. friend will say that we will have Monday next week as Private Members' day, I shall not proceed to-night.


George Eulas Foster: I think my hon. friend should be satisfied when I say that we will try to squeeze him in.
On motion of Sir George Foster, the House adjourned at 11 p.m.
Tuesday, April 16, 1918.