1918-05-18

THE YUKON ELECTION.

Mr. SPEAKER:: I have the honour to inform the House that I have received from the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery the original order of the result of the recount for the Electoral District of the Yukon Territory.



THE ALLIED FORCES.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. THOMAS VIEN (Lotbiniere):: I wish to draw the attention of the Government to this article which was published in the Montreal Star of yesterday, and which is entitled: "America will not agree to replace released troops":
The War Department has declined to accede to French proposals whereby some of the French army would be released for agriculture or industries and be replaced at the front by United States troops. This was learned to-day to be the outcome of recent discussions of man-power.
The Government feels that both France and Britain should increase, rather than diminish, their military forces and that they should not expect the United States to furnish soldiers to release Allied soldiers for industry.
The recent revelations in the Maurice-Lloyd George controversy spell to Government authorities the significant fact that Britain had not radically increased her army in the past year. They believe she should have done so, and they think she and France should prepare to make further increases while the United States proceeds with its increase in overseas shipments.
War Department plans contemplate getting 1,500,000 to 2,000,000 men overseas this year. But it is pointed out that in time the American shipments are likely not to exceed replacement needs.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Order. I would ask the hon. member to summarize the article instead of reading it in its entirety, and then put his question.


Thomas Vien: Just two lines more and I have finished.
Hence, when the United States army reaches 2,000,000, it is likely not to go beyond that figure for some time, unless shipping facilities are much extended.
I wish to ask the Government whether they have any information as to the accuracy of this statement.


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: I have no official information on the subject, except, of course, we have official information that the various classes in Great Britain have been combed and recombed over and over again in the desire to put into the fighting line every available man. We have been

informed that that has been done to the extent of most seriously interfering with a great many highly important industries of Great Britain.



CORRECTION.-MR. RICHARDSON.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. R. L. RICHARDSON (Springfield):: I should like to call the attention of the House to an extract from an article published in the Daily Ontarion, Belleville, under date of Thursday, May 16. The article quotes an extract from Hansard in connection with the Bill respecting the Belleville-Prince Edward Bridge Company, to which my hon. friend from Maisonneuve (Mr. Lemieux) called attention. The article which is under the heading, "Who supplied the misinformation," contains the following extract from Hansard:
Mr. Lemieux: Was Mr. Parliament, the local member for Prince Edward, a party to the
arrangement?
Mr. Richardson: He was a party to it.
Mr. Lemieux: Did he accept the tolls agreed upon, and also the price?
Mr. Richardson: He did.
Mr. Lemieux: And the new conditions?
Mr. Richardson: He accepted the price and the tolls. The ex-reeve of the municipality was also present and also agreed that the tolls were reasonable.
Mr. Lemieux: Then the objecting parties were satisfied?
Mr. Richardson: Yes.
The mistake that happened was this. There was some noise in the House, and when my hon. friend from Maisonneuve asked the question whether Mr. Parliament was a party to the matter, I thought he said "Mr. Porter," the hon. member for West Hastings, who asked me to take charge of the Bill during his absence while attending the assizes in his county. I regret to confess my ignorance, but I did not know that such a gentleman as Mr. Parliament existed, and thinking that my hon. friend said "Mr. Porter," I said, "yes." I do not know Mr. Parliament at all, and I wish to make this explanation in justice to him.


Hon. RODOLPHE LEMIEUX (Maisonneuve) :: I am very glad for the explanation given by my hon, friend from Springfield, because the day before yesterday I received a telegram from Mr. Parliament denying the statement made by the hon. gentleman, but I knew that a misunderstanding had occurred.


Robert Lorne Richardson: I see, according to the newspapers, he does deny it. There was another little inaccuracy. I stated that the matter had been submitted to the "Ontario"
Government and that the Ontario Government had agreed to give assistance, but I find that the Hansard report says the "Imperial Government." It is easily understood that is an error.


Rodolphe Lemieux: That is an obvious misprint.



CONNAUGHT RIFLE RANGE.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. GEORGE BOYCE (Carleton):: A few days ago I placed a question on the Order Paper, and I thought that the answer I received was rather peculiar. Am I in order in saying a few words with regard to that.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The hon. member may ask a question, but it is not in order to enter into a discussion. If the hon. member will put a question, he will be in order.


George Boyce: There were several questions. The first question was:
What are the names of the parties who have Connaught Rifle Range rented for pasturing cattle?
The answer was:
Robert Richardson.
The reason I asked the question was because I thought it was beneath the dignity of this country to turn this rifle range into a cattle ranch. The next question was:
What is the amount .paid for rent?
And the answer was:
$925 per annum.
In answer to my question as to the duty of Mr. Holbrook, who lives on the range, I was told that he is caretaker and receives $90 per month, with free house and grounds. What struck me as very curious was that it should take $1,080 to collect $925. There must surely be something wrong.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Order. The hon. member is now proceeding to enter into an argument, and he is, therefore, not in order.


George Boyce: Am I called to order?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The hon. member may put ,a supplemental question on the Order Paper and get his answer in that way.


George Boyce: There will not be time.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The hon. member should proceed in the usual way and put a supplemental question on the Order Paper.
2m


George Boyce: I do not want to be called to order, because I have not spoken very often.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: 
George Boyce: I shall just make one veply.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Order.



FARMERS' DELEGATION.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Thomas Vien: Has the Prime Minister been handed a certain communication which was addressed to His Excellency the Governor General regarding the last convention of farmers held at Ottawa?


Robert Laird Borden: I understood it was to he referred to me, but it has not yet arrived so far as I am aware.


Thomas Vien: Will the Prime Minister lay it on the Table when he receives it?


Robert Laird Borden: I will make any necessary announcement in that regard at a later date.



HALIFAX RELIEF 'COMMISSION.

[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Sir Robert Borden (Prime Minister), Bill No. 97, respecting the Halifax Relief Commission, was Tead the second time and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
On section 1-Act of Nova Scotia ratified:
Robert Laird Borden: The purpose of this Bill is merely to confirm an Act of the legislature of the province of Nova Scotia conferring certain powers on the Halifax Relief Commission, and also to provide that the accounts of the commission shall be audited 'by such persons as the Governor in Council may appoint on the recommendation of the Auditor General of Canada. The provincial Act conferred upon the Halifax Relief Commission power to make certain alterations in the streets of the city. My right hon. friend, who knows the city fairly well, will recollect that in the north end the streets run directly up a very steep hill from the water. It is proposed that as that district has Ibeen completely devastated, the commission shall have power to run certain of the main arteries of the city diagonally along the hill so as to secure a much better grade, and that for that pur-
[CIr. Speaker.]
pose they shall have power to acquire or expropriate the land that is necessary for making these alterations. Those are the principal features of the Bill. The provincial Act confers! upon the Halifax Relief Commission certain powers which could not properly, in the first instance at least, be conferred by this Parliament.


*Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: As I understand the explanation of the Prime Minister, this Bill is simply to confirm, so far as our confirmation may be necessary, an Act passed 'by the legislature of Nova Scotia.


Robert Laird Borden: And to provide that the' accounts of the commission shall be audited.


Rodolphe Lemieux: When a decision' has been reached by the Commission, which I do not at all criticise, will it be submitted to the Council?


Robert Laird Borden: Oh, yes.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I see by the newspapers that the Commission intend to do some modern town planning in Halifax, something which very generally occurs after a big fine in a large city. For instance, some years ago a fire destroyed the city of Trois Rivieres, which is possibly one of the oldest cities in Canada. After the fire the city authorities decided to remodel the town plan and to have modern improvements, which have been of great benefit to the city itself. I suppose the Halifax Relief Cbmmission will do something of the same kind. If so, a large expenditure will be involved, and I should like to know whether the Commission, which we can trust to act honestly and intelligently, will submit the proposed expenditure to the Governor in 'Council. Will Council have the final say before the expenditure is made?


Robert Laird Borden: The 'Commission have always reported to the 'Governor in Council before taking any step that involves a considerable expenditure. One of [DOT]their reports, which has been confirmed by Order in Council, was laid on the table of the House early lin the session. Before proceeding further along 'the line which I have just indicated, the lObairanan of the Commission came to Ottawa and1 made an oral (Statement to (Council, in which he outlined certain proposals, andi this will be followed later by a written report. As to expropriating the land, the opinion of the Commission is that very little expenditure will he occasioned; that is to say, the land acquired will pretty nearly, if not alto-

gether, compensate tor the land that rer quires to be expropriated. As far as town planning is concerned, if it is carried out under the direction of the Commission so that buildings (and the material and labour for buildings can be contracted for on a large scale, it is believed the work can be done with much less expenditure than if it were undertaken by individuals. Furthermore, the improvement in the appearance of the town 'and the comfort of the people will be very decidedly enhanced.


Rodolphe Lemieux: If I might touch on a subject which is germane to the matter under discussion, I would ask my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries if his department, after the revelations that were made at the investigation into the Halifax disaster, has taken drastic measures to prevent similar accidents in the future. I am told that the Halifax Pilotage Commission managed its business very badly, -and that the minister has received reports tending to show that only by a miracle have similar accidents been averted . before. As we are going to spend a very large sum of money to repair the damage that was done, and Canada will willingly bear this expenditure, yet, may we expect that the Department of Marine and Fisheries will exercise proper supervision over the pilotage system in ihe harbour of Halifax?


Hon. C. C. BALLANTYNE (Minister of Marine and Naval Service):: I am very
glad to give that information. The commission appointed some months ago made [DOT] a very thorough investigation into the pilotage system at the port of Halifax, and I thought hon. members were all aware that after the report of th-.t commission which I promptly laid on the table of the House, the pilotage system of Halifax was taken directly under the control of my department, bringing Halifax into exactly the same position in that respect, as the ports of Montreal and Quebec. I have appointed a very capable man as superintendent of the Halifax pilotage system in the person of Captain Lindsay, who has had very many years of seafaring experience and holds a master mariner's certificate. For a great number of years he had charge of some of the largest ocean-going steamers of the White Star line, and is most competent in every way. He has direct charge of the pilots of the port of Halifax, and he reports to the Department of Marine and Fisheries. The commission-which is investigating the pilotage systems in this country is now on its way to the Pacific coast, where it will
thoroughly investigate the system in vogue at Vancouver, Victoria and Nanaimo harbours, and if the commission reports in favour of placing the pilotage systems at these ports under a superintendent of pilots, as is now the case in Montreal, Quebec and Halifax, I can assure my hon. friend I shall see that that is done.
In regard to the handling of high explosives in the port of Montreal, I informed the hon. member some months ago that I had taken immediate steps to see that all high explosives were loaded many miles east of Montreal. Special sheds have already been constructed at that point and high explosives will be safeguarded in every possible way so as to avoid the recurrence of such a terrible catastrophe as occurred in Halifax. I have had drawn up stringent regulations, governing not only the handling of these high explosives at Pointe aux Trembles east of Montreal, but also the movement of munitions ships coming in and going out of the port of Montreal and while in the channel between Montreal to Quebec. These regulations are now in force .and I can assure the hon. member that every precaution is being taken.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I am very well satisfied with the explanation given by my hon. friend with the rider that he has ingeniously shifted the explosives from Montreal, where he resides and which he represents, partly to my own bonstituency of Maison-neuve. I do not know why these explosives should be shifted to Maisonneuve. At all events, I have full confidence in my hon. friend's, regulations and I hope that extra precautions will be taken to safeguard the Pointe aux Trembles and Longue Pointe people against any possible accident. Since the castastrophe at Halifax I have heard any number of people in Montreal expressing their fear that a similar accident might happen on the island of Montreal, but I am satisfied that the regulations enacted by my hon. friend will prevent that.
Mr. BALLAINiTYNiE:	My hon. friend
knows the location of the port of Montreal very well. I /would not want him or any citizen of Maisonneuve to think that any high explosives are going to be loaded there. They are going to be loaded four or five miles below.
Bill reported.
On the motion for the third reading.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I forgot to ask my right hon. friend the Prime Minister if any limit

was put on the amount to be expended at 'Halifax.
'Sir ROBERT BORDEN: Yes. So far as this Government is concerned, there is a limit fixed by Order in Council. The sum amounts altogether to $12,000,000.
(Mr. LEMIEUX: Wh.at was received from the various provinces and states? I understand there were large subscriptions made.


Robert Laird Borden: Speaking from recollection-I will not .be sure of this-the total amount is in the neighbourhood of $20,000,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: And these moneys are administered by this commission?


Robert Laird Borden: By this commission.
Motion agreed to and Bill read the third time.



INSPECTION AND SALE ACT. AMENDMENTS MADE 3Y THE SENATE.

[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Sir George Foster (Minister of Trade and Commerce) that the amendments imade by the Senate to Bill No. 20, to amend the Inspection and Sale Act (Hay and Straw Inspection), be concurred in:
Wilfrid Laurier: What are the amendments, please?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: The first amendment made was in section. 340, adding two standards for dyke hay. That was particularly for the Maritime Provinces. There was no such standard provided for in the Bill as it .passed this House. On representations which were made from the growers of dyke and marsh hay in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, two standards for dyke hay were established, as follows:
(h)	No. 1 Dyke shall he timothy and couch with not more than one-eighth of clover or other tame grasses mixed;
(i)	No. 2 Dyke shall, ibe timothy and couch with not more than one-third of clover or other tame grasses mixed, of fair colour, sound and well cured.
In the same section, in paragraph (i), the word " or " has been, placed between the words "grassy" and "stained," so as to make it read " grassy or stained." In consequence of the addition of (h) and (i) in reference to. dyke hay, there is a change in the lettering of the different subsections. After section 340E there has been added section 340F, which provides that:
"34'OE. Every seller of baled hay or straw in Canada shall affix to every bale of hay or straw 
sold or offered for sale, a tag having thereon plainly written and ligible, .his name and business address, and the weight of the hale. Such tag shall be securely fastened to -the .bale and shall be of not less than one and one-half inches in width and three inches in length.
A penalty of $5 for each violation of this provision is attached.
Amendments concurred in.



SUPREME COURT ACT AMENDMENT.

[Stage Direction]
On the motion, of the Hon, O. J. Doherty, (Minister of Justice), Bill No. 99, to amend the Act of the present session intituled: an Act to amend tlhe Supreme Court Act, was read a second time and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Boivin in the chair.
Rodolphe Lemieux: Will the minister explain the purpose of this Bill?


Hon. C. J. DOHERTY (Minister of Justice):: The Committee will recollect that during the present session we passed an Act to amend the Supreme Court Act, and one of the provisions of that Act made applicable to the other provinces the restrictions upon the right of appeal contained in the Supreme Court Act with regard to the province of Ontario. After the Act had been passed, the suggestion came from some of the judiciary in the province of Nova Scotia, that it would deprive the parties in certain pending cases of the right of appeal; and the purpose of the present Bill is to add to the Act which recently passed, a provision that the particular section in question shall not apply to pending cases. I rather think that the weight of authority in jurisprudence leads to the belief that this provision is not necessary, and that the Act would not apply to pending cases in any event, but there can be no harm done in making quite clear that such :s the intention of Parliament. I think it would be obviously unfair to deprive the man, whose action has, already been instituted under a particular condition of the law, of a recourse to which he was entitled before he instituted his suit.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Since the appointment of ad hoc judges has been authorized by recent legislation, have any such judges sat in the Supreme Court?


Charles Joseph Doherty: I must admit that I have hot followed the sittings of the court, and I am not in a position to answer the question at present, but I will make inquiry and acquaint the hon. gentleman with the result.
Bill reported and read the third time.



CANADIAN PATRIOTIC FUND ACT AMENDMENT.

[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Hon. Mr. Doherty, Bill No. 98 (Letter V of the Senate) to amend the Canadian Patriotic Fund Act, 1914, was read the second time, and the House went into Committee thereon.
On section 1-Objects of the corporation:
Rodolphe Lemieux: Will the Minister of Justice explain the change made by this provision.


Charles Joseph Doherty: The change consists simply in making it clear that the " residence " required, is residence on the part of the beneficiaries. Personally I have no doubt that the section as it stood meant residence on the part of beneficiaries, but from the way in which the phrase was constructed it was possible to suggest that the relatives residing anywhere, of a man who happened to be resident in Canada when he joined the forces, were entitled to the benefit of this fund. That is not what was intended, and that is not what was carried out, but as recently there has been a suggestion that that was what ought to have been done, it has been deemed desirable to make it perfectly clear that the fund is to be for the benefit of relatives of soldiers -wives, children, and so forth-resident in Canada.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I do not see the Acting Minister of Finance in his seat or my friend from St. Antoine (Sir Herbert Ames) who is the chairman of the Patriotic Fund. I may say that the Canadian Patriotic Fund has accomplished wonders since the beginning of the war. To my own personal knowledge, the fund has extended its bounty, not only to tihe families in Canada, of our own soldiers, but also to the familier of Belgian and French reservists. With these latter I am more especially concerned, because in Montreal I have had several interviews with members of such families, and the Patriotic Fund has always responded generously to the request for assistance made by them. The other day a question was mooted during the Budget debate by the hon. member for St. Antoine, and since then I have received a letter asking for my views as one of the incorporators of the Patriotic Fund-which possibly was sent all the other incorporators in Canada-regarding the future policy as to the Patriotic Fund. In other words, should the Patriotic Fund moneys be collected in future from the public, or should
the Government inaugurate the imposition of a special tax upon the whole of the people of the Dominion for the purpose of maintaining this fund. I have answered unhesitatingly that after four years' experience of individual subscriptions, gathered from all parts of Canada, though it might be an excellent incentive to future generosity to depend upon the public, the Canadian Patriotic Fund was an organization which, in my opinion, should be supported by a special tax levied by the Cam adian Government. It seems to me that it is only fair that the responsibility of caring for the families of our soldiers should be borne by the state.
It is not fair that a few individuals be specially singled out to subscribe and others ignored. Summing up my argument, I think that the levy of a special tax of one mill on the dollar for instance would be received with pleasure by the whole people of Canada. I know that many people in very ordinary circumstances have hesitated to subscribe because they thought their subscription was too modest, whilst the names of large subscribers were being paraded before the public. Every year a whirlwind campaign is organized in our large cities, and the names of the same large subscribers, with the amount of their contributions, are published'. I do not say that our well-to-do people subscribe for the pleasure of parading their names before the public. Far be it from my mind to suggest such a thing. My contention is that it is not fair that only one class of the public should be publicly assessed for the maintenance of the Canadian Patriotic Fund. I hope the Government next session will accept as its policy the recommendation made this year by our colleague from St. * Antoine (Sir Herbert Ames), the able chairman of the Canadian Patriotic Fund, and impose a special tax, small though it may be, to enable the whole of our people to share in the benevolent work accomplished by that fund. I do not make a special plea for the well-to-do classes or for the middle classes. But I cannot help stating that the people who are specially reached by the income tax and the business tax, and the various municipal and provincial taxes, are the same people who generally speaking, are providing funds for the Canadian Patriotic Fund. I must say too that the poorer classes have heen very generous. They have subscribed anonymously and, after all, the anonymous subscription is perhaps the-most worthy. I believe the country would be pleased to

see a new policy inaugurated by which the fund would be maintained through a small taxation on the whole of the people. I was present in August, 1914, at the special meeting , called by the then 'Governor General, His Royal Highness the Duke of Connaught, when the Canadian Patriotic Fund was organized, and I have often thought of the remark made by the right hon. gentleman who leads the Opposition (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) when his views were asked by His Royal Highness as to the method to be pursued in raising the moneys for that fund. Though the right honi. gentleman favoured the incorporation and organization of the Patriotic Fund, and though Ihe said that the public, generally speaking, would respond .magnificently to the requests made to replenish its coffers, yet he stated that before long there would be an urgent request on the part of the public that the assessments be levied generally by the state. The families of the soldiers are the care of the state, and it is its duty to see that they are maintained in proper comfort. I throw out tfhese few remarks in the hope that the Government next session will adopt the views expressed by the chairman of the Canadian Patriotic Fund1, and will adopt the wise policy of making the -state responsible for the -main-tenianoe of itftie families o-f our soldiers who are in need.


Mr.   MQRPHY@: May I have a word about this -section? I quite agree "with the principle enunciated by the last speaker, that the country at large should1 now take over the fund and provide for it. Looking at the meaning of this section, I am ' somewhat -alarmed about it. I would like to ask the minister if I am to understand that [DOT]the section means that the Patriotic Fund in future shall apply to the wife or family of every French reservist, every Italian reservist-


Charles Joseph Doherty: Yes, as it always has in the past.


Mr. MORPHY:: -every Portuguese reservist-


Charles Joseph Doherty: It will apply to the wife of every man who is fighting in the Allied armies-


Hugh Boulton Morphy: -every Russian reservist-


Charles Joseph Doherty: -if that wife is resident in Canada. And I may say it .always has so applied.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: , I was not aware that it always had so applied. It seems to me that
 '
the Government should hesitate a little. This country will have enormous burdens to hear both through the Patriotic Fund and in every other way. I think Canada is pledging itself now quite prematurely, at least until -we know the kind of immigration we will have. Are w-e to provide for every indigent of Europe, sim-ply because of the fact that a soldier's wife happens to come here, probably sent here by the country in which she lives, to get rid of her, she probably not being the most desirable individual? The proposition- staggers me. I do n-o-t think that legislation of this kind should go too fast. I would wait a hit. This matter can afford to wait. If the wife of every Italian -s-oldier must be provided for by Canada, it will be an incentive to- Italy to get rid of them and send them here and put them upon our fund. The same applies to- those of every Allied force, including Russia. I apeak full of patriotism, and in favour of this country doing what it can for our friends the allied nations.
This section might well stand until next session, when the future policy of the Government will -be laid down and when Canada's needs in. the matter of pensions will be better known, If the principle is- laid down that the Patriotic Fund shall he paid to relatives -of soldiers in any of the allied armies, how long will it toe before pensions are paid on the same basis?


Charles Joseph Doherty: The section that is
-being amended describes- the objects ot tne association: to distribute among the wives, relatives and dependents resident in Canada of soldiers actually serving in the armies -of the Allies. I do not pretend to give the exact wording, tout there is- no doubt that provision has reference to wives and . relatives resident in Canada.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: The amendment -says,
"who may become -resident in Canada."
.-Mr. DOHERTY: "Resident in Canada" in the section as it stood was .considered to apply to those resident in Canada not merely -at the time the soldier went away, tout also at the time the assistance was extended. This amendment is- not creating -an obligation on the part of the Patriotic Fund to pay -money to every relative resident in -Canada; it is simply conferring a power. It is true that if we created an obligation on, the part of the fund to distribute its moneys among all relatives of soldiers in the allied f orces who might come here, a flood of people might come to this country in order to obtain -a share of that fund. But we are only defining the classes

of persons to whom it is permissible to distribute the money of the Patriotic Fund. The hon.. member suggested that some of those to whom money might toe distributed might toe most unworthy. I have no doubt that the administrators of the Patriotic Fund will not distribute their money to people of that kind). This amendment is sought toy the administrators of the Patriotic Fund, and it is only to satisfy them that their understanding of the law is correct, and that it is permissible for them to give money to relatives resident in Canada of soldiers who themselves might not have been actually resident here when they enlisted.
12 noon. I do not think that we are exposed to the consequences which the hon. member suggests merely because we make quite clear what are the classes of persons to whom this money may be distributed.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Another provision in
the Act of incorporation makes optional the giving of aid by the Patriotic Fund to any family. The organization is most elaborate. When a request is made by a family for aid, the Patriotic Fund at once sends a committee of two or three ladies to inquire into the circumstances of that family, and in many cases, for good reasons, aid is refused or delayed. Great care is taken to ensure that no aid is granted if it is not needed. The fund has been admirably administered in the district of Montreal. I -said that some of the families of French and Belgian reservists had been helped by the fund. The consuls and their wiv.es, together with members of the Patriotic Fund in Montreal, saw that such families of reservists who needed protection received it. Certainly no abuse was permitted in the administration of the fund.


Mr. TURRIFF:: The point raised by the member for North Perth (Mr. Morp'hy) is well taken, particularly if we have regard to the suggestion made by the member for Maisonneuve (Mr. Lemieux) a little while *ago that the Patriotic Fund should be raised by taxation. That has- always been my own view. 1 do not agree with the member for Maisonneuve that the wealthy are providing the great bulk of the money. The poor people of Canada have given much more largely in proportion to what they have than the wealthy people.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I said that the poor
people had subscribed, but anonymously, and that it was not fair that only certain names should appear before the public.
This taxation should be equalized, and it follows from this argument that the State should provide for the families of our soldiers.


John Gillanders Turriff: I agree with that. In
all probability steps may be taken next session in that direction. If that is done, why should we tell the officers of the Patriotic Fund that they may pay out this money to relatives of soldiers of the allied armies who never lived in Canada? Why should such persons draw from the moneys raised either by voluntary subscription or by taxation from the Canadian people? Surely our obligations are piling up quickly .enough and largely enough to suggest that if we attend to the relatives of our own soldiers through the patriotic and other funds, we shall be doing our full duty. I agree that the relatives Of French or Belgian reservists resident in Canada who go to fight for the Allies should be looked after. But why should we burden ourselves with the responsibility if looking after relatives of Italians who join their army in their own country, and whose wives or families subsequently come to Canada?
The Minister of Justice says that this provision is not compulsory; that we are simply saying that the officers who handle the Patriotic Fund may assist those people. Why should we give directions at all in the matter? Why not leave the Act as it is at present? The Patriotic Fund is now, if necessary, assisting relatives resident in Canada of soldiers in the different Allied armies. Surely that is sufficient; but for us to give directions that such assistance may toe given to a soldier's relatives who may come into this country in the future after he had enlisted in the Allied forces, is, to my mind, absolutely outside of our duty altogether, and we shall be making a great mistake if we pass this amendment.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I should like to endeavour to make this matter clear. As the hon. member for Maisonneuve (Mr. Lemieux) has pointed out, there is in the existing Act a subsequent provision, which says that there is no right vested in anybody to get the money, and this section simply defines those to whom it may be permissible to pay the money. The principal object of this section is not to include, but to exclude, people. If the interpretation which the hon. member would like to see continued possible, remains possible, our Patriotic Fund will toe liable, so far as there can be liability, or, at least, subject to claims being made-and such claims have been made,-that we should give aid



and assistance to women and children and other dependent relatives living in all parts of the habitable glebe, because the man at the time he enlisted was in Canada. Do hon. gentlemen think that is a more desirable situation, even if there were a question of obligation? As I said before, it is beyond possibility of doubt that whoever may be benefited, nobody is being given an absolute right to be benefited. Do hon. gentlemen think it is desirable that there should be in this country, for instance, dependent relatives of a British soldier, or a French soldier, or a soldier of any other Allied country which is taking part in this war, who are destitute, starving, and that this fund should have tc say: We cannot give you anything; we have no power to give you anything? 'It is not a question of saying, what the hon. gentleman apprehended, namely, that any soldier's relatives who may flock in here will have the right to demand such assistance?


Hugh Boulton Morphy: I never said anything of the kind. The minister is wrong. The minister knows that.


Charles Joseph Doherty: That is what I understood to be the apprenension.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: I think the minister is endeavouring to becloud the issue.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I shall leave that to the appreciation of the committee. If I am making that endeavour, I hope I shall not be successful. What I was endeavouring to point out, in order to pierce through the clouds-


Hugh Boulton Morphy: The matter is- quite clear.


Charles Joseph Doherty: -that have been caused to circulate in the atmosphere, was that all that we are trying to do is to remove the suggestion that it may be impossible for the Patriotic Fund to assist dependents, actually resident in 'Canada, of our own soldiers, if it happened that such soldiers were not in Canada when they enlisted. You may have the case of a Canadian absent from Canada, because there are known cases of Canadian men who have enlisted on the other side and whose dependents are here, and it would not be impossible for it to be contended, if the other interpretation is necessarily right, that such relatives would not be entitled to relief. I hope to make the matter clear, notwithstanding the motive that is attributed to me, that there is no question of creating an obligation of any kind, nor of creating an absolute right of any kind. All that is sought to be made clear is that the Patri-
IMr Dothert y. ]
otic Fund is not precluded from assisting, is not in a position where it is impossible for it to do anything for the wives and children or other dependents residing in Canada of a man who is in the Allied fighting forces engaged in the present war.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: The minister has sought to convey the impression that hon. members opposing the amendment have pretended to argue that a right is given. No one has argued that, and I think the minister might as well get that out of his head at once and get down to the proper meaning of the section.


Mr. McMASTER:: The right is inferred.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: It is, of course, inferred. It may or may not be exercised. The section reads:
The objects of the Corporation shall be to collect, administer and distribute the fund hereinbefore mentioned for the assistance in case of need of such waves, children and dependent relatives as are or may become resident in Canada, of officers and men who, during the present war, may be on active service with the naval and military forces of the British Empire and Great Britain's allies."
That covers the whole gamut. It takes in the Japanese. A subject of Japan in the naval or military service of that country comes under the scope of this section. Will the minister tell me what Japan has done for Canada in the way of establishing a patriotic fund to take care of Canadians stranded in that country? The Italian is taken care of under this section. Has corresponding legislation been passed in Italy to take care of Canadians who may be forcibly detained there, unable to get home and compelled to seek a living in that country? Have the authorities in the loyal parts of Russia made a reciprocal provision to provide for stranded Canadians? Whence springs this unbounded generosity of the Canadian people that, in this time of stress, we must, for all time to come, put upon the statute books a provision which is heralded to the world that we, of Canada, are so affluent, and rolling in wealth, so unburdened by the stress of war, that we can say to the world: Send all your dependents here; we do not promise to take care of them, but we have a provision which says: If you are worthy, we shall take care of you? If it does not say that, it does not say anything. I object to the principle of the Bill being put forward at the present. This is no time for us to hold out these invitations to come here and get under the wing of the Canadian Patriotic Fund. Let me put this argument to the minister: The

minister has argued that this section gives no right. Will he deny that, if there are 150,000 soldiers' wives and children, relatives and dependents, coming into Canada, and if they are deserving, this section means that they shall be helped? I submit it does. It would be cruel to argue in any other way. That being the meaning of the section, what I object to is the probable, and prospective burden Canada is assuming at a time which, far from being in affluent circumstances and untouched by the stress of war, we are straining every effort to assist our own dependent people.
At a time when our soldiers -say they are not getting big enough pensions, when their widows siay they are not being properly taken care of, when the dependents of our soldiers are none too well taken care of, I object to the principle of this Bill, which would launch us out on a scheme of indiscriminately taking care of every Italian soldiier, every Portuguese soldier, every Japanese soldier, every French soldier, the soldiers, in fact, of all the Allied armies and their wives and dependent children. The principle is too altruistic, too premature. Let us wait a little. Let us see how our balance sheet stands and provide for those for whom it is our bounden duty to provide, before extending the scheme to others.


Mr. E. LAPOINTE:: The hon. member for Perth and the hon. member for Assini-boia object to the principle of this Bill. May I remind them that they have already agreed during this session to the principle of a Bill which goes a great deal further than this Bill? The Bill before us empowers the Patriotic Fund to assist the wives, children and dependent relatives of officers and men who during the present war may be on active service with the naval and military forces of the British Empire and Great Britain's allies. Earlier in the session we passed a Bill intituled " An Act respecting the Department of Soldiers Civil Re-Establishment, which created a department and set up machinery for the purpose not only of assisting the dependents of the allied soldiers during the war but of looking after the comfort and welfare of the soldiers of all allied countries, and their dependents, who have fought during the war, whether now resident in Canada or whether they come to Canada after the war. Section 5 of that Bill reads:
The Minister shall have the management and control of all matters relating to the re-establishment in civil life and activities of all persons who have served in the naval or military forces of His Majesty or any of His Majesty's
139}
allies during the present war, and the dependents of such persons, and the administration of any statutes or of any regulations or orders enacted or made by the Governor in Council for such purpose. [DOT]
When that Bill was before the House I took the liberty of drawing attention of hon. members to the fact that we were consecrating ourselves to a very serious principle indeed. I said we were entering into a very large contract in undertaking such a scheme, but the views I then expressed were not supported iby any other member of the House, and everybody seemed to agree that this country should look after the welfare of all soldiers who have fought in the Allied armies during the war, whether they came to this country after the war or not. Surely there is a great deal less objection on our part to helping the dependents in this country of any of the soldiers of the Allied armies than to helping the dependents of soldieTs who may not become residents of this country until after the war, and as I have already pointed out, this House unanimously agreed to do the latter when the Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment Bill was passed.


Mr. G. B. NICHOLSON:: It seejns to me the objection taken to this Bill arises either from a misapprehension of the whole scheme of the Patriotic Fund, or from the fact that the gentlemen who raise these objections have not had very much experience with the practical administration of the Act. If the apprehensions of the hon. member for North Perth were justified, it would mean that the intention of the Act was that people should be assisted from the Patriotic Fund year after year, on and on and on, or as the hon. member expressed it, forever without limitation. The Patriotic Fund has as its expressed object the giving of assistance to relatives and dependents of soldiers only while they are on active service, and not beyond the duration of the war. As the Act has nothing whatever to do with assisting the dependents of soldiers or the soldiers themselves after the war is over that seems to cut away the ground on which the hon. gentleman (Mr. iMorphy) built up his argument that we were assuming an obligation for which we would be responsible year after year without limitation. My understanding of the Patriotic Fund is that our implied obligation ceases, even in the case of our own soldiers, as soon as they are discharged from the army. Let me say, as one who has had something to do with the practical administration of the fund in Northern Ontario, that the very thing this clause seems to me to be designed to over-

come has been a very great source of confusion in the past. Misunderstandings have frequently arisen as to whether we had the right under the Act to take care of the families and dependents of French or Italian reservists, for instance, who happened to be resident in this country, and I have always taken the ground that it mattered not whether the soldier was Belgian, French, Italian, or Japanese, if you wish, so long as he was fighting for the Allies in one of the the theatres of war and' his dependents were domiciled in Canada.


John Gillanders Turriff: We do not object to that.


George Brecken Nicholson: The amendment to this Act cannot override the principle of the Patriotic Fund itself. It is simply interpreting what may be done under the Act. The operation of the Act at the present time, as I understand it, is confined, to the relatives and dependents' of men who are actually at war and does not go beyond the duration of the war, but if the hon. member for North Perth were correct and the operation of the Act was to continue indefinitely year after year I would certainly say that we must stop and consider, because in that case we could not undertake to pay suitable pensions to our soldiers and their dependents and help them from the Patriotic Fund as well and as a matter of fact we are not doing that now. I have had to deal with many cases myself where the contribution from the Patriotic Fund ceased immediately the soldier who was discharged from the army had his pension fixed.


Mr. DUFF:: 
Andrew Ross McMaster: I am thoroughly out of accord with what the hon. member for Lunenburg has just said, because his proposal would cut out the French and Belgian reservists.


Charles Joseph Doherty: It would also cut out the British soldier.


Andrew Ross McMaster: In my county there was a French reservist, a man over forty, with a wife and a number of children, who was called to the colours. His family have been helped by the Patriotic Fund, and' everybody is delighted to help them because they should be helped. I believe I express the feeling of the House when I say that we are all willing to take care of the families of the soldiers of our Allies who were resident in Canada at the time they left to join the colours. But this law goes a little further. It is true it does not oblige us to help the families of soldiers who have come in since the war, the heads of whose families may never have lived in Canada. To illustrate that, let me take the special case in my county. Suppose the wife of that French reservist had a sister living in France, and it is left to the generosity of the Patriotic Fund in Canada to take care of that sister and her children. She says: "I will move out to Canada and establish myself there." If 'they come they will be welcome, and any persons who want to help them should be free to do so, but the country should not assume, or infer, an obligation of that kind. The Minister of Justice is an old law professor of mine, and I would not set up my legal opinion against his for one moment.


Mr. BUREAU:: Why not?


Andrew Ross McMaster: Because I am a modest man. There is no obligation stipulated, but there is an obligation inferred. If we create a corporation for the express purpose of distributing money among people who may become resident in Canada, although their fathers or brothers have never lived in Canada, we certainly invite people to come to Canada in the expectation of receiving some benefit from this fund. If the hypothetical woman, whom I have mentioned for the purpose of illustration, comes to Canada and establishes herself next door to her sister, in my county of Brome, would she not feel that under this law the Patriotic Fund should give her something? She would be quite reasonable in taking that view. It is a mistake to hold out any illusory hopes of that sort. I want to support the suggestion made by the hon. member from Saskatchewan (Mr. Turriff), whose

constituency I have forgotten, but whose constituency I should have known because he was on our side of the House last year. He says that the Patriotic Fund should not depend on private subscription but on taxation. He is quite right. So long as the	country	raised its armed
forces by the voluntary system, there was no reason why we should not raise money to help the relatives of soldiers through the voluntary system, but once we adopted the .system of compulsory military service, surely it is only right that the same principle should he followed for the purpose of raising a fund to support and help the relatives of soldiers. As>
a matter of fact what is often urged, is that conscription is a matter of taxation. You would never think of raising money for public purpose by private subscription. That was an argument used by the oonscriptionist. This is a conscriptionist Government and it should be logical and consistent with itself. If we raise an, army by compulsion, and if we raise money to look after the wives and children of the soldiers who are in that araiy, I would, consider that to he an obligation of the state just the same as the soldier's pay is an obligation of the state. You should he consistent in this and raise the money required for looking after the wives and relatives, of soldiers by taxation. The way the Patriotic Fund is raised now is largely a matter of certain people, representing no one 'but themselves, assessing their fellow-citizens-. When a patriotic committee of rich .and powerful people, many of them rich bankers, go out, among the business people of a large city and collect subscriptions, .for the Patriotic Fund, they are not appealing, to. the spirit of benevolence. They are practically, in many cases, .assessing their fellow-citizens and telling them, if you will allow a vulgar expression, to come across with a certain amount of money. I do not like, that way of raising money by ordinary voluntary procedure. I think it 'best that money for State purposes should, be raised by the State itself.


Mr. NESBITT:: I am sorry I was not in when this Bill was introduced in order that I might have found out why this .amendment was proposed. As far as I have heard, the Patriotic Fund has been well administered and has been working out very satisfactorily. This, clause may be construed to mean that the Patriotic Fund may be continued after the man has returned. My hon. friend from East Algoma (Mr. G. B.
Nicholson) pointed out that that was not the intention. My experience is the same as his. When the men return, get their three .months' pay with their discharge, and get their pension, the Patriotic Fund no. longer supplies them. I would like to say a word in reference to what the hon,. gentleman who has just sat down (Mr. MoMaster) has, said as to the method of collecting the Patriotic Fund. I have long thought that voluntary subscriptions were largely a .matter of coercion. In the section of the country from which I come we only once took up an ordinary voluntary subscription. After that we adopted the plan of raising the fund by municipal taxation. That plan has been very satisfactory, and it has been most satisfactory in, so far as the administration is concerned. I absolutely agree with the suggestion that the fund should be raised by taxation. If the Dominion Government are in a position to- collect a tax for it, they are surely the ones to do it. I do- not think it should toe called any longer a Patriotic Fund. I think the money should be given in the form of extra separation allowance in accordance with the number of children in a family as they do on the other side of the line. If there is a danger of this clause being misconstrued, -as the hon. member for Brome (Mr. McMaster) says and the money paid to people who moved into the country after the war started, for the purpose of getting some .benefit from this fund, or for any other purpose, or if there is a danger that it will be continued after the soldier gets his discharge, I would suggest to my hon. friend the Minister of Justice (Mr. Doherty) that, She- strike out the words "or may become" io the eleventh line.
That would clear the ground in so far as those who may afterwards become settlers in Canada are concerned. Then on the last line but one of the section, the words are used: "who during the present war may be on active service." I would suggest that we should strike out the two wmrds "may be" and insert the word "are." The phrase would then read: "who are on active service." These are my suggestions, and in my judgment, they would overcome entirely the objection that I have heard made to the clause this morning. I think we aTe all proud of the way in which the Patriotic Fund has been administered, and the very small expense that has been incurred in connection with it. Altogether the work of the local committees who distribute the funds throughout the country has been excellent, as far as I have heard.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Suppose the soldier is not on active service, but is dead?


Edward Walter Nesbitt: If the soldier is dead his dependents are awarded a pension by the Government. It is not the intention of the Patriotic Fund to provide for dependents of that class. When the soldier returns from active service and is discharged, he receives three months' pay, and that, to a certain extent, makes good the amount formerly contributed out of the Patriotic Fund, until the man is able to settle down to regular employment.


John Gillanders Turriff: There is one other .reason why we should not pass this clause as suggested. I agree very largely with the remarks made by my hon. friend from North Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt) that the provision under discussion might probably be further amended to make it more clear. We notice in the Press that sometime in ' the future there will probably be as many as three million American soldiers overseas. Under the proposed amendment the dependent relatives of such men who come to Canada, may be paid out of the Patriotic Fund. As is well known, people are crossing from the United States into Canada by the tens of thousands every year, even at the present time. Why should we direct payments to be made from the Canadian Patriotic Fund to the relatives of American . soldiers who are overseas fighting the battles of that country as well as our own? They are our allies, it is true, and we are glad to have them and see them in the battle line, but the United States is just as well able to take care of the wives and children of its soldiers, as we are to take care of the wives and children of our own soldiers, and even better.


Mr.   M@: 
Charles Joseph Doherty: I would like to ask my hon. friend exactly what it is that he proposes? Does he intend that if the wives and children and dependent relatives were resident in 'Canada when the war broke out, but are now resident in the United States, they are to receive a payment from the fund? I think that the amendment which, he proposes would have that result. Perhaps we might arrive at a better wording that would meet what I think is in the mind of the hon. member for Perth (Mr. Morphy). I do not want to misunderstand the hon. gentleman, and' may I, without offence, state the impression that was created in my mind?


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Yes.
.Mr. DOHERTY:	When there are clouds
in the mind of the hon. member for Perth, it is because, in his opinion, I am trying to raise them. When there are clouds in my mind, it is my own fault-they do not come from anything the hon. member for Perth says. What I understood to be apprehended by the hon. gentleman was, that this provision might open the door to an influx of people-relatives of the soldiers of the different armies-with regard to whom there would exist-H understand be does not contend a right-a position as the result of which they might come forward and say: " I am within, that description, therefore, you ought fairly to do something for me." Now I think that is quite likely, and I also want to avoid that as far as I can. On the other hand the Patriotic Fund administrators themselves-because I may say this is their Bill, and T was asked by them to have this legislation passed^wanted this one thing made clear: They wanted to be in apposition to say, for example, to a soldier's wife who has been living in the United States, "Our fund is not for distribution outside of Canada, but is for the benefit of those resident in Canada who are relatives of soldiers at the front, without distinction as to which of the Allied forces they are serving under. The people we want to take care of are the dependent relatives in, Canada of those soldiers!" .and the reason we want to do that is that the people of Canada feel that when they have in their midst the dependent relative of a soldier, and that dependent relative is a resident in this country, after all, it is not becoming that we should leave that dependent relative to starve on the streets. That is the general idea of the matter. I am quite prepared to adopt any wording that will guard against an influx of people

coming only for the purpose of getting upon the Patriotic Fund or creating a situation where they may claim it. I have endeavoured to find a wording that I might exclude, at all events, the idea of any invitation to people to come in for that purpose, and at the same time create a situation where the hands of the Patriotic Fund would not be tied-say, with regard tc a woman, who, sometime since the beginning of the war, came bona fide into this country and who, perhaps, at the time she came in, was not in want, but has since come into want, and is the dependent relative of a soldier-and that the officials of the Fund should not be hound to say:
*' Because you only came here after the passing of the Act, or after the outbreak of the war, we can do nothing for you." That I concede might properly exclude the idea or intention to deal with anybody and ' everybody who chooses to become later on a resident of 'Canada. II am prepared to concede that the wording in that regard is a little objectionable. If we struck out the words " or may become " and substituted therefor the words " at the time of the giving of such assistance " resident in Canada, that might meet the case. I do not want to dispute that under that wording even it may be possible, it will be possible, for .somebody who came in later to rank on this Fund if the circumstances are considered to justify it. But I think it best to exclude the idea of a general invitation to come in for that purpose. Now as regards the situation concerning the words " who, during the present war, may be on active service " to which exception is taken, I think we would meet any possible ambiguity in those words, and make it also perfectly clear that this assistance is to be while the active service continues, if instead of the words " during the present war may be " we substituted the words " actually on active service during the present war." I do not know how far that meets the case.


Andrew Ross McMaster: It does not-


The CHAIRMAN:: The committee is getting out of order. Mr. McMaster has moved an amendment which is- before the committee, which cannot be further amended until it is either disposed of or withdrawn. I would like to ask the hon. member for Brome if in order to permit of discussion 1 he will withdraw his amendment?
Mr. McMAlSTER: Yes, I will withdraw it and move this amendment-


Mr. PARDEE:: Might I suggest to the hon. member if the time should not be
stated as from the time of enlistment instead of from a specific date? Why make it specifically the 22nd day of August?


Georges Henri Boivin: Order. Is it the pleasure of the committee that Mr. McMaster have leave to withdraw his amendment?
Amendment withdrawn.


Georges Henri Boivin: The Minister of Justice moves that section 1 be amended by striking out in the eleventh line the words "or may become" and inserting in lieu thereof "at the time of the giving of such assistance." Also by striking out in the twelfth line the words "during the present war, may be" and inserting in lieu there-ofthe words "actually are."


Charles Joseph Doherty: The modification suggested is not "actually are." I thought I said "actually on active service." I do not want to say only the men who are today on active service, because we hope to have some soldiers in the future, and their relatives should be dealt with too.


Mr. NICKLE:: Perhaps I might clear up this point by reading from the original Act of incorporation, so that the House will see the object of the amendment. Section 3 of Chapter 8 of the Statutes of 1914 reads:
The objects of the corporation shall he to collect, administer and distribute the Fund hereinbefore mentioned for the assistance in case of need of the wives, children and1 dependent relatives of officers and men, residents of -Canada, who, during the present war, may be on active service with the naval and military forces of the British Empire and Great Britain's allies.
When this section recently came up for careful consideration and construction, a doubt- was- raised as to what construction should be put on the words " residents of Canada." The question. w.as: do the words " residents of Canada " qualify the words " officers and men," so that this meaning should be taken from the statute that " assistance in case of need " may he given to all -those wives, children and dependent relatives of officers and men where the men have been residents of Canada at the time the war broke out, and thereafter. Or whether the construction was that this aid might he given to the wives,, children -and dependent relatives, residents of Canada, of officers and men who were actually engaged in warfare. The practical condition that had arisen was this-: at the outbreak of the war and thereafter there -were within Canada certain wives, children and dependent relatives of men, these wives, children and dependent relatives having been for some time residents of 'Canada, but the
. 2208

men never were residents of Canada. If we put the narrow construction on the section that the imen must have been residents of Canada any time since 1914, the relief given to these female relatives would be illegally given, because the men never had been residents. It was to clear up an ambiguity.
Mr. MoMASTER: How would it happen that the women were here and the men were not?


William Folger Nickle: They were of the families of many men called to the .British and the French colours. The families were here, .and it just happened that the men did not come. The Patriotic Fund subsequently found themselves confronted with this difficulty : the pay of the French soldier is very trifling; the pay of the British soldier is not great. These women and children were in' Canada, and they either lh.ad to be kept or they had to starve.
If the Patriotic Fund did not assume the obligation, the municipality in which they lived would have to do it, or th.ese people would be left to starve. Those responsible for the Patriotic Fund did just what you or I would have done. They said: an unexpected condition has arisen; Canada is not going to let women and children want for food in this country when their male relatives are fighting for the cause in another army of the Allies. As I said when the hon. member for Brome (Mr. McMas-ter) interrupted me, in my judgment the section as it now stands, in law, is incomplete. As the words "residents of Canada" -should -qualify the wo-rdis "wives, children and dependent relatives," it seems to me that a simple amendment would make clear all that h-ae up to the present time been obscure. In .section 3 -the words "residents of Canada" might be made to follow the word "relatives," so that the section would read:
The object of the corporation shall be to collect, administer and distribute the Fund -hereinbefore mentioned for the assistance in case of need of the wives, children and dependent relatives, residents of Canada, of officers and men who, during the present war, may be on active service with the naval and military forces of the British Empire and -Great Britain's allies.
That would simplify the Act and make it as it is desired to be. I admit that the amendment which I suggest would not, on [DOT] principle, meet the objection raised by the member for North Perth; that the right to claim aid might still be vested in a family who subsequently came to Canada. The difficulty that the draftsman of the Act now

before the committee found himself in arose from the fact that by section 2 of the Act he endeavoured to make the law retroactive; and to make the statute speak from the second day of August, 1914, so he had to put in the words "or may become?'; otherwise it would not be retroactive in the sense that he desired it to be.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Does the hon. member believe that unless the draftsman put in those words, he could not make the law retroactive?


William Folger Nickle: It was because it was to be retroactive that he had to put them in.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: I do not think so.


William Folger Nickle: When lawyers differ, the only way to get a decision is to leave the question to the court. As it is now one o'clock, I suggest that the minister, during recess, take into consideration the suggestion which I have made and see whether it will obviate the difficulty which confronts the committee.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at three o'clock.
The CHAIR/MAN: Mr. Doherty has asked for leave to withdraw his amendment.
Amendment withdrawn.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I beg to move:
That section 1 be amended by striking out the word "such" in the tenth line thereof and substituting therefor the word "the," also by striking out in the eleventh line the words "as are or may become."


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Bill as -amended reported, and amendments concurred in.
On the motion of Hon. Mr. Doherty for the third reading of the Bill:
Mr. J. H. 'SINCLAIR: A number of prominent* members of the House have urged the advisability of raising this fund by way of taxation. As my hon. friend from Brome (Mr. M-cMaster) has pointed out there is a further reason at the present time why the Government should take that ' suggestion into consideration, and that is because we are sending men by compulsion to the front. Would the minister say what is the opinion of the Government as to raising this fund by taxation?
Edgar Nelson Rhodes: As the minister has moved the third reading, he is not entitled to s-peak to his motion again, but I take it that it is the unanimous wish of the House that he may reply to the hon. member.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I am not in a position to announce any settled policy on this subject, but we do recognize that there is very much to commend the views expressed the other evening by the hon. member for 8t. Antoine (Sir Herbert Ames) whose views have added weight from his relation to the Patriotic Fund; and after what has been said to-day in support of his views, hon. members may rest assured that so far as I am concerned the suggestion shall have earnest consideration with a view to settling on a course of action.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the third time.


[Stage Direction]
On motion of Sir George Foster, the House reverted to the Order " Presenting Reports by Standing and Select Committees."
Hon. HUGH GUTHRIE (Solicitor-General) presented the third report of the *Sjelect Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections, as follows:
The Select Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections to which was referred the special return of the General Returning Officer to the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery for Canada concerning the election of a candidate to serve in the House of Commons for the Yukon Territory, with power to consider the same and report their conclusions thereon, and to which was referred their second report for further consideration, presented with respect thereto the following as their third report:
Your committee have, pursuant to the resolution of the House of the 16th day of May, 1918, reconsidered their conclusions concerning the matters referred to in the order of reference of the 15th day of April, 1918, and at a meeting of your committee held this 17th day of May, 1918, the following resolution was adopted which the committee respectfully submit and recommend :-
Resolved, that the votes purporting to have been cast, counted and applied under Part IV of the Dominion Elections Act as shown in the special return of the General Returning Officer are properly applicable to the respective candidates to whom they have been applied, and that Said special return be recommitted to said General Returning Officer with a direction that he do forthwith openly proclaim and return as duly elected a candidate to represent the electoral district of the Yukon Territory pursuant to the provisions of section 14 of said Act.
All of which is respectfully submitted,
H. Guthrie, Chairman.
On motion of Mr. Guthrie, it was ordered that the report be taken into consideration on Tuesday next.
On motion of Sir George Foster, the House proceeded to the consideration of Government Orders.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. T. A. Crerar, Minister of Agriculture, the House went into committee to consider the following proposed resolution-Mr. Boivin in the Chair:
Resolved, That it is expedient to amend Part IX of the Inspection and Sale Act, chapter eighty-five of the Revised Statutes, 1906, relating to Fruit and Fruit Marks, and to provide more effectively for the marking and inspection and packing and repacking of fruit, and for the materials, dimensions and content of barrels, crates, boxes, baskets, and wood veener baskets, packed in Canada, or manufactured and offered for sale in Canada, on and after the first day of June, 1919, but authorizing permits to be issued allowing the use of packages of other sizes than those specified; and to prevent false representation as to the contents of any package; and, further, to provide that no person shall sell, offer, expose, or have in his possession for sale, any fruit unless such fruit conforms with the requirements, is properly packed, and the package is marked as prescribed, and such fruit is not diseased wormy or otherwise depreciated so as to be unfit for consumption; and that any person who carelessly handles, wilfully destroys or pilfers any fruit packed in any of the prescribed packages shall be liable to prosecution; and also to amend Part X of the said Inspection and Sa'le Act, relating to certain Staple Commodities, by providing that no person shall sell or offer for sale any potatoes, represented to be of Number 1 quality or Number 2 quality, unless such potatoes conform to requirements to be enacted and are of prescribed size, but subject to allowance for variations incident to commercial grading.-The Minister of Agriculture.
Mr. ROBB:: What are the requirements to be enacted governing the sale of potatoes?


Mr. CRERAR:: This does not mean the establishment, for potatoes, of any particular grades that shall be compulsory in their character. At the present time, there are no obvious grades or -standards for potatoes in Canada. There are, however, dealers who, in selling their potatoes, describe them as No. 1 potatoes, and include under that designation any class of potatoes that they may care to include. The amendments proposed here merely provide that if a dealer does represent his potatoes to be of No. 1 character, they must conform with the description set out in the Bill to be founded on this resolution. It is not obligatory for him to have his potatoes conform with any standard, but we seek to make it obligatory that if he does represent his potatoes as No. 1 potatoes, they shall conform with the standard set out in the Bill.

Resolution reported, read the first and the second time and concurred in.
Hon. Mr. CRERAR thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 108, to amend the Inspection and Sale Act relating to fruit and fruit marks and potatoes.
Motion agreed ,to, and Bill read the first time.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
The House again in Committee of Supply, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
Trade and Commerce-mail subsidies and steamship subventions-steam service between Canadian Atlantic ports and Australia and New Zealand, $70,000:
['I quite agree with the hon. member. The reductions here will not interfere with that. We have a special vote for that purpose.\nProgress reported.\nOn motion of Hon. Mr. Carvell the House adjourned at 6.57 p.m.\nMonday, May 20, 1918,']
Mr. SINCLAIR:: Is this service being performed at the present time?


George Green Foster: This line has been subsidized for a series of years, but during the last year the service has been very much interrupted, the company not being able to get ships owing to requisitions made by the British Admiralty. We have, therefore, had to satisfy ourselves as far as possible with occasional sailings: During the last three or four months we have not been able to get any ships at all. The total subsidy for the preceding year was $140,000. I have cut that amount down to one-half, keeping this $70,000 in the Estimates, so that if circumstances prove a little more favourable, we may perhaps be able to get one-half the service if we cannot get the whole.
Ocean and mail service between Canada and Great Britain, $400,000:


George Green Foster: The same remarks apply to this appropriation. The committee will see that, instead of $1,000,000 which was voted last year for that service, I have cut the amount down to $400,000, and it is problematical whether that amount will be spent or not.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What companies are in the service?


George Green Foster: Chiefly the Canadian Pacific and the White Star, but there are one or two others.
Steam service or services between Canada and Newfoundland, $70,000:


George Green Foster: That is the usual subsidy and the same appropriation as last year. The service is between Sydney and Port aux Basiques.


Mr. JOSEPH READ:: Is the service between St. John's, Newfoundland, and Sum-

merside anid Charlottetown included in this appropriation?


George Green Foster: No, that is a separate appropriation. This is an appropriation for service between the terminus of the Government railways at Sydney and the terminus of the Newfoundland railway at Port aux Basques.


Rodolphe Lemieux: A few 'weeks ago I
noticed that there was a case before the court in St. John's, Newfoundland, in which the names of the right, hon. the leader of the House (Sir Robert Borden), and even that of my right hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster) were prominently mentioned. This is a case which arose out of a dispute-or shall I say a quarrel?-between Sir Robert Reid and one of the ministers in Newfoundland.


George Green Foster: Might I ask my hon. friend whether that dispute had anything to do with the service between North Sydney and Pointe au Basque?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Absolutely.


Sir GEORGE  POSTER@: I would ask rriy hon. friend if he does not think, that, in these warm arid dying hours of the session, it would be better for us to go on with our business and leave these other little things, which cannot affect this vote in any way, until a more convenient day.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I do not intend to be long and there is a breeze coming into the House this afternoon.


George Green Foster: There is always a breeze when my hon. friend gets up.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I am not breezy generally. The name of the right hon. gentleman was mentioned very prominently in connection with that case. It was stated that offers had been made to Sir Robert Reid by the Prime Minister and my right hon. friend to annex Newfoundland to Canada. The question of a subsidy was mentioned in connection with that policy. I do not know what happened with the case before the court but I noticed at the time that the name of my right hon. friend had been mentioned. Was he a party to such pourparlers between Newfoundl'and 'and Canada as regards this annexation scheme and, if he was, could he give the committee a statement concerning these pourparlers and also say what policy the Government intends to pursue as regards the annexation of Newfoundland?


George Green Foster: My hon. friend is a lawyer and has been a member of a

government. As a lawyer be knows that when a case is sub judice, information concerning it is not a proper thing for public discussion, particularly in the House. As a former member of [DOT] the Government he knows that certain things are better not discussed in public even if there be any foundation for them until they shall have become settled in some way by a conclusion, positive or negative. With these two premises I may say I have no recollection of having been caught in flagrante delicto, or in any other way, in reference to any such negotiations,
'Steam service betwen Canada and the West Indies or South America or both, $250,666.66:


Sir GEORGE  POSTER@: The committee will see that this vote has been diminished. The service is under contract, the contract was to run for five years, and it has not ended yet. Two of the vessels have been commandeered) for war purposes. That leaves two on that route. It is not improbable that we will be able to get another vessel to gO' on that route sooner or later. I have made a certain cut in the amount, as we shall certainly not be able to use the whole amount, but I have provided what I think may be sufficient for the two vessels now running, as it is problemetical whether we shall be successful in getting another.
Steam service between Canada and South Africa, $73,000:


George Green Foster: The same remark applies in part to this- service. It has been interrupted. The Elder-Demopster line, which has been carrying it on, has had probably eighty per cent at least of its whole tonnage taken by the British Government for war purposes, and, beside, it has suffered many severe losses through ships being torpedoed anid otherwise destroyed'. Wo are, therefore, reduced to an. occasional service. There is now in Canada .a large amount of material ordered by South African merchants, which is awaiting transportation. But it has been impossible to get even sailing vessels to take that route. I have pressed the matter as strongly as possible upon the Admiralty, but, of course, the necessities of the war 'must have precedence. I have been able, however, to get the allocation of one vessel which will sail in June,' and I may be .able to get one a month or every other month. I have therefore kept $73,000 of the $146,000 as usable for the possible service this year.
Steamship service 'between Canada and Australia or (New Zealand, or .both, on Pacific Ocean, $18'0,5'0,9 :


George Green Foster: The service which we have been able to maintain up to the
present time has been partly .subsidized by New Zealand more largely by ourselves. Whether we will be able to keep on the whole service or not is very problematical; in fact,- two of the vessels are under imminent commandeering prospects by the Admiralty. This is a very valuable service, and I have kept the vote on the supposition that we will be able certainly to keep part of the service ,and to secure the services of two ships.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Are .any ships plying now between the Atlantic ports .and Australia and New Zealand, and how are the subsidies paid? I suppose the appropriation for this service has been passed, but I could not hear the explanations that were made.


George Green Foster: Payment is according to the trips made. With respect to the Australian, service, there have not been any trips now for four or five months, the service has. been intermittent. On the West Coast there has been a steamship service- that is, the steamships have made their trips regularly-'which has been entirely satisfactory.
Steam service between Canada, China and Japan, $253,334.


Sir GEORGE  POSTER@: Since this item was put in the Estimates of the four vessels which have been on this service the two Empresses, and they were the largest ones, have been commandeered by the British Government. There seems to be an immediate prospect of having those replaced. In order to keep the estimate as low as possible, and yet to provide for what may be necessary, I propose to take $53,333.34 from that vote and make it $200,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I read in a New York paper that the Canadian Government had made some proposals for a large number of Chinese to settle in western Canada? What truth is there in that statement?


George Green Foster: There is no truth in that statement. I beg to move:
That item No. 129 be reduced to the extent of $53,333,34 so that the item will read: "Steam service between Canada, China and Japan, $200,000."


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Steam service between Halifax, Canso and Guysborough, $5,000.
['There is no truth in that statement. I beg to move:\nThat item No. 129 be reduced to the extent of $53,333,34 so that the item will read: "Steam service between Canada, China and Japan, $200,000."']
John Howard Sinclair: Has the contract
been made for the present year?


George Green Foster: Yes, the "Scotia," the same vessel as before, is making the trips.

Steam service from the opening to the closing of navigation in 1918 between the mainland and Magdalen Islands, $18,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Has the contract been signed, and is the vessel now on the route?


George Green Foster: A boat is now on the route. The contract has been signed with Farquhar and Company, and the " Enterprise " is performing the service. She is the best, in fact the only boat, we could get. She is not as large as we would like, nor does she probably come up to the old standard of vessels that we had on this service. The contract, however, is in the hands of an excellent firm, and I think the service will be carried out as satisfactorily as it possibly can be under the circumstances.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Was there not an arrangement made with Captain Farquhar that the "Enterprise," being too small a craft for the service, would not be put on the route this year, but that a larger vessel would be built and put into commission?


George Green Foster: We have not made any contract, or entered into any arrangement for the building of another vessel. Shipbuilding at the present time is a pretty expensive operation.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I understood from Captain Farquhar when he came here some weeks ago that he was ready to build a vessel if the department would give him a contract for a certain number of years.


George Green Foster: I think that is true if we could have agreed upon the price of the vessel, and given a long contract, but we are not doing that in any of these services. We have to feel our way and do the best we can.
'Mr. MoTSAAC:	Is there, any steamer
plying where the " Enterprise " operated last year?


George Green Foster: No. The only thing that has been done so far is that I have communicated with the "Enterprise," and the "Enterprise" will be able and willing to call at a number of these ports, and might possibly be able to give a very good service at these ports. I am in communication with the company in that respect.
Steam service between Mulgrave and Guys-boro, calling at intermediate (points, $5,500.


John Howard Sinclair: The service on this line has been performed for several years by the "Robert Cann," which was a very

good boat. She was withdrawn last year, and a much smaller boat was put on, the "Percy Cann." This boat is not suitable for the service; she is too small. I am not certain that the minister can find a better one at the present time. But it occurred to me that we will never be able to improve if we do not give notice prior to the expiration of the contract. Would it not he well if, three months before these yearly con-, tracts expire, tenders were asked for, so that owners of boats might have a chance to come in? The matter drifts along until the 30th March, or whatever date these contracts run out, and then the contract is renewed with the old company, and no one knows anything about it. The department might perhaps be able to improve the service here and there hy allowing others to tender, giving them ample time to do so, say three months prior to expiration of the existing contract. I ask the minister to consider that point.


George Green Foster: In normal times I think that would be the proper course to pursue. In fact, we did pursue it before the war and asked for tenders. But during these times the route and the people on it may be thankful to get any sort of an old tub. There is not much chance for choice.
Steam service between Quebec and Gasp6 Basin, touching at intermediate ports, $8,500.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Would the minister explain the situation there?


George Green Foster: The old boats,
as my hon. friend knows, passed off from the service last year in the latter part of the season, and although every effort was made to get a suitable boat for this service, in the end we had to take Hobson's choice. We did get a vessel which would undertake the service between Quebec and Gaspe Basin. The owner is Captain Tremblay, I think, and the boat is a fairly good boat, and will probably carry out the demands of the service.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Have you had an inspection made of the boat?


George Green Foster: Yes, and she
is passed for the service.


Mr. PELLETIER:: Was a contract signed for that boat?


George Green Foster: Between Quebec and Gaspe Basin?


François Jean Pelletier: Between, the Government and Captain Tremblay?


George Green Foster: Yes.


François Jean Pelletier: I notice, Mr. Chairman, that you did not call item 175 for steam service between Quebec and Harrington and along the north shore.


George Green Foster: We shall have
two boats on that service which will carry out the service on the schedule of last year, going down to the extremist point and giving the usual and customary service. We have been able to get a second boat on that line. It is rather a superior boat, a better one than I had expected to get.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Is that the "Elaine"?


Sir GEORGE  POSTER@: The "Savoy"
and " Elaine " will perform the service along that coast. I am very glad to have got two such satisfactory boats as the department has been able to obtain.


Rodolphe Lemieux: But you have taken
the " Elaine " from the Gaspe route between Campbellton and Gaspd?


Sir GEORGE  POSTER@: That is true.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Why did my hon. friend come to that decision? There is quite a traffic on the Baie deis Chaleurs. It is true that there is a railway on the coast, but the fishery business requires a boat in this section of the Bay, as there is a large traffic between New Brunswick and that part of Quebec. I understand that Mr. Evans, the proprietor of the Elaine, would have preferred to remain on the old route between Campbellton and Gaspe.


George Green Foster: Several considerations come in there. In the first place, I was faced with the necessity of cutting down the total vote for steamship subventions and subsidies, and I have cut the vote down by nearly one half. The principles that I tried to base the deduction on were these: First, that the most important routes should be kept, and if it came up a question between a more important route and a less important, I should have to make the choice in favour of the most important one. The other principle was that where there was service by railway, the people would have to get along by railway service, and not indulge in the luxury of a double service. I realize there is some inconvenience in this arrangement; there are some ports which are a little distant from the railway, and which will be better served by having a vessel. But evidently we must come to a conclusion on the situation as it presents itself. The north shore service is not a paying service, as my hon. friend knows, but it is a necessary service. The people are there; they have no railways;
they are dependent on water communications, and whether there were 150,000 people down there or 5,000, we have to maintain a service; therefore, as between the service between Campbellton and Paspebiac. [DOT]and the service on the north shore, I had no hesitation, when I was able to sret the Elaine, in placing her on the more important service of the two. My hon. friend will find in the report on mail subsidies and steamship subventions a statement of the traffic carried between Campbellton and Gaspe. It has diminished so greatly that the payment of the subsidy demanded is not justified.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Because the boat was not of the same tonnage as in the old days.


George Green Foster: I doubt that.


Rodolphe Lemieux: There is no question of luxuries in that section of the country; what the people want is opportunity to transport their fish. The railway runs along the coast but it does not touch all the little harbours and consequently it cannot always be depended upon. I protest against the cutting down of this subsidy and I hope that when better times come my hon. friend will revise his ideas and re-establish this line between Campbellton and Gaspe. My hon. friend knows 'that Baie dee Chaleurs is 'an attractive spot for tourists; there is no more beautiful section of the country in the whole of the eastern provinces. We must not discourage tourists from visiting that part of the country.


George Green Foster: Nothing would delight me more than to see that route kept up; it is one of the scenic routes of our country. I myself have made the trip several times. But this is no time for tourists; in any case, tourists are not seeking that route at present. Moreover, you cannot get tourist trade unless you have a first-class vessel on the route. After the war is over, however, I hope that many things will come to pass.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The minister does not close the door completely, then?


George Green Foster: Oh, no. I never close the door, even to my hon. friend.


Mr. MICHAUD:: I agree with what the member for Maisonneuve (Mr. Lemieux) has said with reference to this matter. It is important that the steamer Elaine carry on the service between Campbellton and the northern part of the Gaspe coast. I have received a communication from a citizen of the town of Campbellton with reference to this subject, and submitted it to

the minister, who sent me the following reply, dated May 15:
The Steamer Elaine has gone upon the North Shore, St. Lawrence route, from Quebec eastward and is not available for the Campbellton-Gasp6 Service. The amount of freight- offering during the last two or three years on that route has been so small that it is not considered advisable to continue the expenditure. Though some inconvenience will no doubt be experienced, there is a railway which runs along that shore which will give a fair service' to most of the communities interested.
There is a great fishing traffic .along that coast, .and. the steamer Elaine could render the best .service. The cancelling of that steamer for the present summer would seriously affect the business in the northern part of New Brunswick and along the coast of Gaspe. We have not many .facilities for exporting fish along the Gaspe coast; many places are not touched by the railway. I hope that the minister will revise his ideas, not next year, but now, and give ue a service for the present summer.
Steam service between Rivifire du Loup, Tadoussac and other north chore ports, $6,000.


George Green Foster: This is one. of
the services that I had to dispense with. The item seems to have got into the Estimates., however, and I movie that it Ibe struck out. The service referred to is between Riviere du loup, Tadoussac and other north shore ports. The vessels have deteriorated and changed hands. Last year we had no service because the vessels offering could not pass the examination necessary to entitle them to carry passengers. The whole amount of freight carried in one season on this route was only 142 tons. Had we retained the subsidy we could have bought all the freight, carried it on our backs to the different destinations, and still have had some money in pocket. I could no.t see that we should, in these .times, spend that money on a service which was of so
4 p.m. little real benefit. It is a convenience, but not a real necessity, .as the freight service shows.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Is the minister paying subsidies to the Canada Steamship lines?


George Green Foster: No.	*


Rodolphe Lemieux: I was going to suggest
that he make arrangements with the Canada Steamship lines

the old Richelieu
Company-to have a vessel go to Rivifere du Loup once or twice a week


Jacques Bureau: Why? You have the cars there.


Rodolphe Lemieux: You have in front of
Riviere du Loup the whole county of Char-

levois, the river Saiguenay, Cap-a-l'Aigle, Murray hay, and other important points. When the people of Riviere du Loup want to do business on the north shore they have to go the whole way around.


Sir GEORGE  POSTER@: But the whole
of the freight carried there in a season was only 142 tons. You could carry it on a wheel barrow.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The trade has not had a chance to develop there.


George Green Foster: This subsidy ha3 been, paid for at least ten years. The service has constantly depreciated; more than 1,000 tons was never carried on that route, and now the quantity is reduced to 142 tons. I would rather hire some man to carry that in a canoe, thus saving the public a good deal of money.


Ernest Lapointe: The hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Gauvreau) is not in his seat. He is interested in this service, because it is in his- riding. My hon. friend from Three Rivers (Mr. Bureau) said that the Canada Steamships Lines' vessels should not call at Riviere du Loup, because there is no work for them to do. He is entirely mistaken as to that, because they are. calling there. Last year they called there at least twice a week. On. their way up to Chicoutimi they stopped every Saturday at Riviere du Loup, and on their way back they stopped there on every Sunday. This subsidy was rather for the encouragement of winter navigation on that part of the St. Lawrence river. The little boat that was being operated on that line was doing the service every month of the year, and the new experiment was a very successful one. I hope the minister will see bis way clear to restore this service in the near future in spite of what my hon. friend from Three Rivers says about it.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I would asik the minister to hold the matter open for a few minutes. I see the hon. member for Temis-oouata (Mr. Gauvreau) is now in. his seat.


Mr. GAUVREAU:: Has the minister any good reasons for striking out this item?


George Green Foster: I have just been endeavouring to state them.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: Off the item is left in the estimates it will always be an inducement for some one to take steps to enter into a contract with the Government


George Green Foster: I want to draw to my hon. friend's attention the flagellations which have been given to this and

former governments if they have put into their Estimates items which they do not purpose using. I am acting on the sense that has been drilled into me in part from the flagellations received from critic's on the other side of the House. Sudh criticism is quite fair. We cannot stuff our Estimates. There is not the least hope in the world of getting this service put on, ands, therefore, I do not want to carry the item in my Estimates. I shall, as my hen. friend suggests, keep an eye on the future, and if we can get a service which will justify a subsidy I shall be very glad to ask this House for an appropriation.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: I shall take the drilling out of the minister by telling him that if the money is not spent, neither the Government nor any one else will he hurt, but if the item remains in the Estimates, it will be an intimation to some one that he should go to the minister and endeavour to enter into a contract. .


George Green Foster: Seeing that the ministers are so hard worked already, why should my hon. friend want to keep this molasses point out to attract all those who would bother the minister in regard to some old tub or other? You cannot get anything but a tub these days.
Mr. IiEIMHEUX: Am I to understand the minister will restore this item to its proper place whenever a suitable boat is found for the route?
Sir GEORGE FOSTER, When sufficient grounds are given for the expenditure of money on this route, I shall be quite willing to ask the House for an appropriation.
Vote stricken from the Estimates.
Steam service from the opening to the closing of navigation In 1918, between Pictou, Mul-grave and Gheticamp, $7,500.


Mr. CHISHOLM:: Has any change been made with respect to this route? I think it was the intention to drop Pictou.


George Green Foster: The contract has not yet been signed and negotiations are still proceeding. My view was this-and I think it was approved-that the distance traversed between Pictou and Mulgrave was an unproductive part of the route, because, owing to the shallow water in the harbours along that coast, it was difficult for the boat to make uniform, stated calls. That being the case, a year or so ago, a small subsidiary vessel was given a subsidy to take over that part of the route, and I have put in the Supplementary Estimates an item for that service with the
view of dispensing with the coal-consuming part of the voyage for small freight between Pictou and Mulgrave and putting the strength of the larger vessel on the traffic which goes and comes between Mulgrave and the north. That traffic, at certain seasons of the year becomes congested even with the two boats whose services are given. The matter, however, has not been settled yet.


Alexander William Chisholm: I am in receipt of several letters asking that this boat touch at Prince Edward Island. I quite agree with the minister that the call at Pictou is not desirable. I never could see any justification for it, because the boat could not, according to the minister's statement, call at any other ports along that route. If the boat would make one trip to one of the Prince Edward Island ports it would be of more service to the people, because we have more business with the island than with Pictou. We have already Mulgrave as a port of call. There is another matter I should like to bring to the minister's attention, and that is the demurrage at the port of Mulgrave. I have had some correspondence with the department with respect to that, and there are two things I would like the minister to bear in mind. First, there is no railway communication! with the northern ports. Secondly, navigation is only open for five months in the year. There is a very large population to be served north of Port Hood, and our difficulty is that in the fall of the year, from the first of September onwards, the steamer cannot make regular trips because there are no harbours on that coast. The steamer has sometimes to wait at Mulgrave two weeks in the stormy weather; watching for an opportunity to put out, and it is a very great hardship that our merchants should have to pay demurrage on the goods that are kept at Mulgrave until the boats can go out. During the last two years, and this session again, I have had some correspondence with the department and they have replied that concessions have been granted in this respect. I am quite satisfied that that is correct, but the minister will realize that a very large amount of money is paid in demurrage, particularly on account of flour, which comes in carload lots in the fall of the year and has to stay at Mulgrave for two weeks at a time. Of course, the consumer has to pay an increased price on that account, and I would ask the minister to look into this matter.


George Green Foster: I shall be very glad to.


John Howard Sinclair: I understood the minister to say just now that he was making provision for the continued service of the small gasolene schooner between Pictou and Mulgrave, calling at ports in the county of Antigonish. I think the minister has received some correspondence requesting an increased subsidy. I have here figures showing the cost of operation during the past year and the amount of freight and subsidy received, which I will give the House so that the minister can refer to them on Hansard. The total 'amount received, including the subsidy for the operation oi this boat, last year was $2,878. The cost of gasolene and oil was $513.60, wages $960. victualling $320, insurance $100, repairs $423, other expenses, $60, deck and engine supplies, $74, depreciation, $90; making a total of $2,540.60, leaving a profit to the owner of $337.40. The boat is a good one, I am told, and worth perhaps $5,000 or $6,000, and the owner can hardly be expected to keep it in this service for the small profit he is making. The people along the coast fear that" the boat will be withdrawn if an additional subsidy is not given to the contractor. The boat performs a very important service in a local way, as many of these people are twenty miles from railway communication and they grow a good deal of farm produce, it being a farming district. They have been urged, of course, to increase their production during the war, and this boat is the only means they have of getting their produce to market. I have received letters from some of these people asking me to urge the Government to keep the boat in operation so that they can get their produce to market. I understand the contractor is 'asking for another $1,000. If that is too large a sum, the minister might consider adding half that amount to the subsidy in order to retain this boat in the service for the present year, I would again impress upon him the importance .of the service in a local way, because it would be a very serious matter for the people along that coast if the boat was withdrawn on account of the small sum that is being earned.	[DOT]


Mr. WIGMORE:: I have received a number of letters and telegrams from different people in St. John with reference to the steamer run by Connors Brothers, from St. John to Dipper harbour, Chance harbour, and Mace's bay. Only this morning I received a telegram from Manchester, Robertson & Allison, of St. John, protesting against the withdrawal of the subsidy for the steamer. Connors Brothers say that if

the subsidy is withdrawn they will take the steamer off 'the route. .This is a very important service, because the people in Dipper harbour, Chance harbour, Mace's bay and other small places along that shore depend entirely on this steamer for getting their goods from St. John. If the minister has already decided to withdraw the subsidy I would ask him to reconsider the matter. I am not aware how much the subsidy is, but it is important that this boat be kept on the route, both from the standpoint of Hie merchants of St. John and the people living in the places at which the steamer calls.


George Green Foster: 
John Howard Sinclair: There is a very general idea that not much work is going on at the present time in the Interior Department, on account of there being no immigration, for one thing, and I think the minister should inform us whether it is not possible to reduce the numbers of employees and thereby curtail the expenses of his department. A few years ago an abnormal increase took place in the expenses of this department, under one of the minister's predecessors. Has the minister made any attempt to trim the Estimates this year?


Mr. MEIGHEN:: I am surprised that any one should have the impression that there was not much doing in the Interior Department. There is a way of cutting down the number of employees, and that way has been found and acted upon. The number of employees has been very considerably reduced.
The estimates, instead of going up, have been going down. There has been a very pronounced reduction. Nor has the work been going down at the same time; it is being carried on with as great efficiency and in volume almost as substantial as in previous years. The total reduction this year is some $454,000. There were eighty-one employees taken off. They were connected with the immigration service. The .Imimigration Department has been created, and consequently the volume of immigration does not affect the Department of the Interior work in any degree; formerly it affected it very heavily. The Interior Department has twenty-five branches, including that of Soldier Settlement. The soldier settlement work, which is now added to the work of the department, is by no means an unsubstantial or negligible

amount; it is a factor of great importance in the department, and so long .as it is needed it must continue to be a factor of importance. This item is the regular appropriation for 'Civil Government salaries. The appropriation is $1,172,125, which is an increase of $42,400 over last year, but the statutory increase is $48,737.50, and it cannot be avoided. In giving last year's vote I .have, of course, deducted1 that portion which is attributable to immigration work. Taking that off the figures for this year the statutory increase is lessened 'by $6,337.50.
Mr. MUiRPHY: On a previous occasion my hon. friend gave the House some information regarding the mining work that is being carried on by some branch of his department. Does the Mines Branch belong to 'my hon. friend's department?


Arthur Meighen: There is a Mining
Branch of the department, under the immediate control of the chief clerk oE the department, Mr. Rothwell. That branch administers- the mines that are on Dominion Government property. If my hon. friend would care to make any remarks on. this subject they would come properly under the appropriate estimates and we are a long way from that yet. The matter will be under Dominion Lands and Parks.
Mr. MURPHY": The Geological Survey is also under my hon. friend's department, is it not?
-Mr. MBI'GHEN: No; that is under the Secretary of 'State.	.


Mr. MURPHY:: The Topographical
Branch?


Arthur Meighen: The Topographical Survey and the Geodetic Survey are under the Department of the Interior, but not the Geological -Survey.


Charles Murphy: Is it the intention of any of the branches to send out a prospecting or exploration party to British Columbia during the approaching season?


Arthur Meighen: An exploration party :s likely to make surveys although I could not say for certain as to that. If any hon. friend would tell me what parties he lias in mind and where they are going, it is quite possible that I could give him the information that he desires. It is probable that there will be parties sent out by Dr. Deville, head of the Surveys branch. He is sending three parties into British Columbia. The estimates for that branch have been reduced'from $776,300 to $496,300, a reduction of $280,000.


Charles Murphy: Now that we are at war I would like to ask the minister as to the character of the employment of the officials in the several branches and to ascertain how many are engaged in war work or in connection with the investigation of minerals required in the prosecution of the war. How many of those who are of military age can be dispensed with and how many should be retained?


Arthur Meighen: I do not think there is any one liable for military service who is sent out with these survey parties. At all events, not one has been since I have been in the department and no application has been made on my part for exemption for any one in the entire department. As to those who are doing work which is directly war work, it is a matter of what is meant by "directly." There are certain parties sent out under Dr. Deville who are surveying land with- a view to ascertaining its suitabi'ity for soldier settlement and they are perfecting the maps for the Soldier Settlement Board, so that any one calling at the office of the board will be able to get a fair idea of any land or any district where he purposes going. Then we have parties who may be said to he doing war work under general survey work which I will describe when we come to the vote for Dominion Lands and Parks.


Charles Murphy: What I want to know
is whether those who are to be sent out are going to do work of a general exploratory or academic nature, or if their work is directed towards the investigation of minerals, -such as molybdenite, platinum and others which are important in the prosecution of the war.


Arthur Meighen: The parties going out
have been directing their attention to those matters.	,


Joseph Read: Does water-power inspection come under the minister's direction?


Arthur Meighen: Yes.


Joseph Read: Is the department making any investigation in regard to the water-powers that exist in the tidal waters of the bay of Fundy with the view of ascertaining whether it is possible to harness that tremendous force of " white coal " that is now going to waste.


Arthur Meighen: We have an arrangement with the Government of Nova Scotia, whereby, in co-operation with the water-powers branch of the Department of the Interior, under Mr. Challies, an investi-

gation has been under way for two years. That has to do with the water-powers of Nova Scotia but- it doubtless would include the water-powers of the bay of Fundy. We are making an arrangement on similar lines with the province of New Brunswick, ahd a similar proposition has been made to us from British Columbia.


John Howard Sinclair: How many years does
it take before the information so obtained will be of use to engineers in enabling them to decide whether there is sufficient water or not?


Arthur Meighen: I think that very useful information can be obtained from the Water-powers branch as to any powers in Nova Scotia and as to their availability and usefulness for commercial purposes.
Mr. J. 'H. SINCLAIR: Is it published?


Arthur Meighen: Whether it is published for Nova Scotia yet I do not know. Some of it is published but I do not know how full the report is. If my hon. friend would call upon Mr. Challies, or Mr. Johnston who is under him, he would get detailed information as to Nova Scotia water-powers and the same information would be available from the officers of the province of Nova Scotia.
Contingencies-clerical assistance, $2S,0-00-; printing and stationery, $45,000 ; travelling expenses, etc., $32,000.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: How does the minister
work out the amount of $32,000 for travelling expenses?


Arthur Meighen: The item is the
same as last year. The sum of $23,000 will be required to -meet the expenses of. the permanent officials of Ottawa who are travelling on Government business, and an amount of $9,000 will be necess-ary to cover the expenditure connected with telegrams, postage, subscriptions to newspapers, express charges-, oaJb hire, a supply of drinking water -and other small items relating to the Inside Service of the department in Ottawa. I think the same amount w-as voted last year, and I understand that almost all of it was spent.	'


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Since we shall now have ten or eleven thousand miles of Government railway, will the 'Government officials still charge up railway fares as before?


Arthur Meighen: The orders have been
to use the Government railways- wherever it is possible to do so. I do not think that will make any difference in the main, because my impression- is-I do not know
[Mr. Meighen. J
what the impression of my colleagues is- that it would not foe wise to -adopt the siame principle as to 'Government railways as i6 , adopted with respect to the franking of mail in the Post Office service, and that the Government railways should be credited with their real earnings.
Expenses connected with the Dominion Astronomical Observatory at Ottawa, $25,00-0.


Charles Murphy: Is this the usual vote?


Arthur Meighen: I think it could be
said, to be. Las-t year the Astronomical Observatory, the International Boundary Commission, and the Geodetic Service, were all included in one vote. This year the -services are divided: so as to show the apportionment of -money to each. This is the apportionment for the Astronomical -Service at Ottawa. The- vote is- the same -as last year.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Who is the chief of the Astronomical Service now?


Arthur Meighen: Dr. Klotz.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: He succeeded the late Dr._ King, did he?


Arthur Meighen: He succeeded Dr. King in so far as the Ottawa Observatory is concerned. Dr. King, however, had charge of all the branches that I have just mentioned. Dr. Klotz is just the chief of -the one service.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Is he a permanent officer?


Arthur Meighen: Yes.
Expenses connected with the Dominion As-trophysical Observatory at Victoria, B C $7,500.


Charles Murphy: Will the minister -be
good enough to explain the item?


Arthur Meighen: This is a new item and it is the -only increase in the total vote, the reason being that .this is the first year this Observatory -has been in- existence.
-Geodetic Survey of Canada

Investigations, triangulation, precise levelling, topographic and field astronomic work, etc., $112,005.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: When is this branch of
work going to be concluded?


Arthur Meighen: It will occupy many
years. The Geodetic Survey was undertaken a few years ago, and an organization was established to carry, it out. This survey involves very many years of scientific work.
I am inclined to the view that }f we had anticipated the war we would -have deferred the establishment of the organization-, As it is established, however, we are carrying

it on on such a scale as not to necessitate the disbanding of the organization altogether. It is a very important service, there can be no doubt of that. We are establishing points throughout 'Canada with that precise, scientific accuracy that will enable all engineering work, and all surveys hereafter to be related to those points, to be the better carried on and with a certainty that will dispense with litigation and get rid of many difficulties that heretofore' all surveys have encountered. I may say that all countries are carrying on this- work. The item is the same as last year.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I thing this would be a suitable opportunity to bring to the attention of the committee a statement which has been handed to me, entitled " Memorandum re An Economic Route for Completion of Inland Deep Waterway " which is signed by a very eminent engineer of the city of Ottawa, IMr. -Noulan iCauchon. I wonder if my hon. friend has heard of this project. Perhaps I might be permitted to read the memorandum so that it may be placed in Hansard:
Ottawa, 2'4'th May, 1916.
Ottawa.



[Stage Direction]
The New Welland Canal.
Now that the Country is committed to and constructing the New Welland Canal, it follows as a logical consequence tha/t the 2i5 (2>5-30) foot draft must ultimately be carried through to Montreal and tide water.
Pending this outcome the New Welland Canal appears as an unproductive load of $60,000,000 to ourselves, but of some benefit to our neighbours.
The St. Lawrence Canals-Deepening and Enlarging.
The St. Lawrence Canals are 14 foot draft. They begin at Cardinal and end at Montreal, embracing 45 miles of canals, including 18 locks. There are a-lso about 6>8 miles of river stretches.
The principle upon which the St. Lawrence canals depend for their depth and their further deepening is that of lowering the bed of the locks and canals, and also where necessary of the channels in the river stretches as well. The St. Lawrence canals being mainly along an International Waterway, the surface levels could not pe disturbed, I take it, without complications with vested interests and the United States.
Due to the foregoing conditions, I have estimated the cost of the deepening and the enlarging of the St. Lawrence canals and river stretches at about $150,000,000, as the construction work would be mainly under water work and much rock, of an expensive variety.
Deepening these canals necessarily entails "scrapping" existing works which have cost over $25,000,000, yet retaining their cost in the capitalization of the improvements.
im
As the opportunity is denied of# retaining depth on the St. Lawrence, by dams, the' alternative, the deepening and widening of the channels will accelerate the flow and cause earlier and longer low water.
Similar results have followed the continuous deepening of the St. Lawrence channel between Montreal and Quebec; the writer believes in barrages and locks to obtain depth there instead of continuing further deepening and also as a means of redeeming the evil results of the past methods.
Any tendency to lower Lake Ontario level would arouse United States protest and bring international complications; our own harbours on Lake Ontario would likewise be depreciated.
The Georgian Bay Canal.
The other alternative for a deep waterway from Port Arthur to Montreal has been the proposed Georgian Bay Canal.
The principle upon which the required depth in the Georgian Bay Canal is obtained is that of building dams and raising the level of the river, generally so providing the required depth not only in a channel but over a considerable width affording freer movement for vessels; a fairway.
The cost of the Georgian Bay Canal would now probably run to at least $150,000,000, due to the increased cost of living and of materials and the greater disturbance of established conditions.
The New Route.
I propose that the Great Lakes Route be accepted via the Welland to Cardinal at the head of the St. Lawrence rapids and canals.
I find that a deep canal can be, easily, carried through at Lake Ontario level from Cardinal to the vicinity of Ottawa, at which latter point it would require a 105 foot drop to the proposed level of the Ottawa river (say by three locks).
The canal on leaving the St. Lawrence would be through a 30 foot cut for three miles or so and then through level rich farming land as a level ditch following the contour of a gently sloping side hill.
The distance is about 50 miles from the St. Lawrence to the Ottawa, and would cost about $50,000,000. I am confident that the estimated cost would be much reduced on actual survey.
Using the Ottawa River-Ottawa to Montreal.
As already shown the attainment of the required levels in the Georgian Bay Canal, particularly in that portion of it which I propose to use, would be comparatively simple and inexpensive, due to its accomplishment mainly through the means of two dams and the consequent raising of the river levels.
' In proposing the adoption of that portion of the Georgian Bay Canal from Ottawa to Montreal, I would draw attention to the fact that there are only five locks which with the two dams afford long stretches of uninterrupted fairway.
Moreover the cost of the Georgian Bay Canal from Ottawa to Montreal as given in the Government estimates of that scheme is about $30,000y000, and owing to the work being all included in a few structures, the, margin of error in the estimates should not be very great. As to that portion of the Georgian Bay Canal which extends from Ottawa westward and includes such a great amount of rock work, there is of course a larger margin of probable increase in estimate, and under the present conditions I have therefore assumed the total
[Stage Direction]
cost of the Georgian. Bay Canal at about 5150,000,000 for comparative purposes.
Summary.
Comparative Approximate Estimate. Alternatives:-
Georgian Bay Canal,
22 ft., or deepening St. Lawrence Canals,
14 to 22 ft.l______
New canal from Cardinal to Ottawa,
30 ft	
Adopting Georgian Bay Canal, Ottawa
to Montreal	
/ 

 5 80,000,000
5 70,000.000
Saving of St. Lawrence Canals.. 25,000,000
Total advantage by new route. . 5 95,000,000
to which may be added many millions from non-interference with the country's traffic during the busy seasons of several years.
The saving of the St. Lawrence canals, as mentioned would have the further advantage of leaving us with two routes from Cardinal to Montreal.
From the foregoing it is my opinion that the scheme which I have outlined would mean an economic saving to this country of over $100,000,000, better than by the deepening of the St. Lawrence canals or the building of the Georgian Bay Canal.
It would seem wise in the public interest to establish now by a preliminary survey the cheaper and thereby more likely and nearer fulfilment of our needs.
The required survey should cost about $20,000.
N. Cauchon.
Of course, a matter of this kind would specially pertain to the Department of Public Works. But the conclusions are rather addressed to my hon. friend vMr. Meighen), because the country cannot commit itself at the present juncture to such a vast expenditure. The writer of this article, who is a well known authority, .asks that preliminary surveys be made by the Department of the Interior. I would ask the minister to read this communication, which is now on Hansard, and submit it to the officers of the Geodetic Survey. Mr. Cau-dhon is of the opinion that the 'construction of this canal between 'Cardinal and Ottawa would save a tremendous amount of money and would solve the question of transportation.
Ernest Lapointe: Will the minister state approximately how many miles have been surveyed? What is the total amount of precise levelling done by the Geodetic Survey?


Arthur Meighen: I think there is a misapprehension as to the Geodetic Survey. To the hon. member for Maisonneuve (Mr. ['Mr. Lemieux.]
Lemieux) I may say that the project which he read could not be taken up by the Geodetic Survey. The Geodetic Survey merely fixes the precise location, of points, and surveying for other purposes is made with reference to these fixed determined points. The subjelct- covered by the memorandum would come entirely under the Minister of Public Works.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I know that. But the inception of the work .is with the Geodetic Survey, on which the other surveys are based. .


Arthur Meighen: In so far as that is concerned, the Geodetic Survey now has work under way along the St. Lawrence, and, I think, has- work under way at all points where it will .be available for the surveys of engineers who may go out in pursuance of such a suggestion. But the initiative in this matter is with the Minister of Public Works (Mr. 'Carvell), and, with his well known views- on economy in war time. I am afraid he is very likely not to embark on it at present. The (hon. member for Kamouraska (Mr. E. Lapointe) asks as to the number of miles surveyed. There are no miles surveyed at .all in the Geodetic Survey. It merely locates points. Surveys that are made longitudinally and latitudinally are made by the Topographical Surveys under Dr. Deville.
Mr. E. LAPOINT!?: I have here the report of the Interior Department for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1917, and on page 24 I see:
The total amount of precise levelling of tihe Geodetic survey of Canada is now over 9,7-00 miles, and about 2,8'O0 standard -bench-marks have been established.
I wanted to know if the number of miles had increased during the fiscal year.


Arthur Meighen: What my hon. friend refers to is the levelling. It -is an item included in this vot-e, but it is known as "precise levelling." That is the mileage covered. He asks whether it -is equal to last year's or not. Last year's amount equalled the previous year, and this year's it is estimated, will he about the same.
Expenses connected with the survey and demarcation of International Boundaries including $1,000 to J. J. McArthur as International Boundary Commissioner, $60.4-95.


Ernest Lapointe: Has the department the same number of parties working on these surveys?


Arthur Meighen: Yes. The work is undertaken jointly by the United States and

Canada. We have had the same number working this year as last. We have the same number as the Americans have.


Ernest Lapointe: Is this a necessary work to be performed during the war?


Arthur Meighen: 
John Howard Sinclair: Wnat will it cost to complete this survey?


Arthur Meighen: This item completes it.


James Alexander Robb: A few years ago, the minister of the day made the statement that in the negotiations with the United States we were arranging for two hundred feet of a neutral zone to be use"d as a highway along the international line. Has any progress been made in these negotiations?


Arthur Meighen: I do not think so.
Government of the Northwest Territories- salary of Mr.' George D. Pope as accountant to the commissioner, $300.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: What salary does this gentleman get besides the amount mentioned here?


Arthur Meighen: Mr. Pope is head of the Revenue Branch of the Interior Department, in which capacity he receives a salary of |3,300. Mr. Du Plessis, secretary to the commissioner, is under the Northwest Mounted Police Department, at a salary, I believe, of 52,300 or 52,400.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: What extra work does he do for this $300? It is so small that it looks like a sort of Christmas box.


Arthur Meighen: I really cannot give any information further than may be inferred from the name of his office. I assume that he conducts all the correspondence for the commissioner.
Government of the Yukon Territory, $185,000.


Arthur Meighen: There is a very radical reduction here of $135,000. In administration alone a reduction of $35,000 is effected, due to the reorganization of the whole administrative machinery of the Yukon. Large numbers of officers have been relieved of- their duties, with considerable saving to the country. The following offices are abolished: commissioner, $12,000, excepting $3,000 which he received during the period of his enlistment; administrator, $6,000; registrar, $5,000; director of surveys, $3,500; mining inspector, $3,300; draftsman, $3,000; clerk, $2,700; clerk, $2,160; legal
adviser, $3,500; mining recorder, $3,300; mining recorder, $3,000. Assistant gold commissioner, Whitehorse, $6,500, office continued; clerk, $2,400, office continued.


Mr. CAHILL:: Has any provision been made for the men whose offices have been abolished?


Arthur Meighen: All members of the original party which went up there got their aggregate leave of absence, that is to say, the holidays which had accrued, and were also paid their expenses. The Director of Surveys was simply stationed there. He is still in the department, but he does not get his Yukon allowance. .
Dominion Lands and Parks-salaries of the Outside Service, $440,000.


Arthur Meighen: There iis a reduction of. $45,000, effected in this way:	Seven
Dominion land offices and twenty-two suboffices in Western Canada have
5 p.m. been closed and the work is being carried on by the staffs of the remaining offices, with some additions from those closed.


Frank S. Cahill: Are any homestead lands now open for settlement by civilians?


Arthur Meighen: Ye.s, all excepting those reserved.


Frank S. Cahill: What lands are reserved?


Arthur Meighen: Speaking generally, all lands within fifteen miles of any railway.


Frank S. Cahill: Is it the intention to continue to allow settlers to go on lands which are twenty, thirty or forty miles from a railway?


Arthur Meighen: There is no embargo
on that. A man can settle on any homestead land that is available, land that is surveyed and thrown open for settlement, ii it is not held for soldier settlement or otherwise.


Frank S. Cahill: Would not this be a good time to put an embargo on the outlying lands instead of allowing people to settle anywhere out in the West, and then cry for railroads? The department should adopt some policy of directing the settlement of homestead lands.
Mr. (MEIGHEN: The only way in which that oould! be effectually done would be to withdraw homesteads from entry and perhaps abolish the homesteading privilege altogether, and then sell lands only as may be thought wise. In this way men could not settle at far-away points and the obliga-

tion to build railways' to those points would not be incurred. No decision has yet been reached on that Subject.


Frank S. Cahill: Has it been considered.


Arthur Meighen: The subject has been
considered in a general way.
Surveys, examination of survey returns printing of plans, 5496,30'0.
'Mr. E. LAPOINTE:	How many parties
will be employed this year in the survey?


Arthur Meighen: Thirty-seven.
Protection of timber in .Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, the Northwest Territories, and the railway belt in British Columbia ; tree culture in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and inspection and management of Forest Reserves 56'50.000.


Mr. ROSS:: I should like to have a statement from the minister of what is being done in this connection. A report was laid on the Table last night, but we have not yet had an opportunity of perusing it. I understand, from a notice I saw in the press, that that report is in connection witih this item. This is one of the most important branches o-f the work of the Department of the Interior. Not very long ago I had an opportunity of reading a report made, in December, 1916, I think, by ,a special committee appointed in Great Britain, consisting of some of the most eminent men. Their report dealt with this question of timber, and it was pointed out that after Russia and the United States, 'Canada was, so far as supplying timber to the British Empire was concerned, the third nation in importance. It was also pointed out that in recent years -Great Britain, bad depended upon Russia for her supply of timber, as we were shipping most of o-urs to the United States. Great stress was laid upon the fact that for the defence of the Empire a sufficient supply of timber was most essential. In view of the fact that Great Britain can no longer depend upon supplies of timber from Russia, in view of the critical stage in which the war now is-, and also in view of the importance placed upon the timber supply to the Empire, I should like to know wlhat policy the department is pursuing in this matter. I see the item is not inereased. In the report it was stated-I am speaking entirely from memory-that the governments- of Great Britain an-d the overseas Dominions were in communication on the subject. What communications have been received by -this Government? And what steps are being taken to follow the sigges-tions made in that report?


Arthur Meighen: The subject to which my hon. friend alludes 'has bean under review, not by the department, but by a subcommittee of the Reconstruction Committee of the Government, the vice-chairman of which is the Hon. Mr. Maclean. I know that that subcommittee has made a preliminary report, but if it has made a final report no copy has 'been sent to the chief of the Forestry Branch. This appropriation is the same as last year. I could not see piy way clear to make any reduction in it. More money is now required to do the same work as in previous years unless one can effect a better organization. That I am trying to do.


James Hamilton Ross: I am not asking the minister to make a reduction in the amount. I am suggesting, in view of the situation in Great Britain, it might be wise to increase it.


Arthur Meighen: I should like very much to do so, but I do not. see my way clear. The importance of the work no one can over-estimate. The .preservation of our forests means the -preservation of one of the main assets of Canada. I do not think, however, that under present conditions we can justify an increased expenditure under this heading.


Frank S. Cahill: To what extent is tree culture being carried on?


Arthur Meighen: I think the sum of
$60,000 of this amount is attributable to that head. There are established in the West stations at which tree culture is carried on. The trees are, as a rule, given free to farmers who wish to use them. My hon. friend, knowing conditions in the West, knows that one is performing a real service when he increases the number of trees in the almost treeless plains.


Frank S. Cahill: Where are the stations located?


Arthur Meighen: At Indian Head and Saskatoon.


Frank S. Cahill: Are those all there are in the West?


Arthur Meighen: Yes.


Frank S. Cahill: There are none in Alberta? Mr. MEIGHEN: No.


Ernest Lapointe: Is there any cooperation between the department and the-provincial forest services in regard to the protection of forests?


Arthur Meighen: Yes. I do not know that I can exactly define the extent of it. There are two main branches of our work.
- MAY 18, 1918
Forest protection is carried on with, considerable intensity in our own reserves, which are the reserves that we should exert our energies to protect. We carry on, not so intensively, another work in the other forests of t'he Dominion. Our duty is, in the main, to preserve the forests owned by ourselves. Nothing definite has been agreed upon in regard to co-operation with the provinces, although they are getting the benefit of some of our work. The provinces protect their own timber.


James Hamilton Ross: Have any special precautions been taken in recent years for protecting the forests from fire?


Arthur Meighen: Yes. For instance, we are establishing a system of licensing whereby a permit must be obtained befbre any fire can be set on unpatented lands. The provinces are doing the same with regard to their lands, and we utilize their officials as far as possible. Then we have a patrol system extending through our whole forest area.
Grant to Canadian Forestry Association, $3,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Is this for the annual convention of the Forestry Association?


Arthur Meighen: It is for the general work of the association, of which the convention is an important feature.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I think it is an excellent idea to give the association this small grant, because it is doing good work. I must say on behalf of my province that the Commission of Conservation has paid great tribute to the work performed by the Forestry Department of the province of Quebec. The Commission of Conservation in their last report state that Quebec stands ahead of all provinces in the matter of forest protection, and Sir Clifford Sifton in the same report pays high tribute to Mr. Piche, the forestry engineer of the province of Quebec. In fact, the other provinces, notably New Brunswick, have asked the government of the province of Quebec to loan Mr. Piche and his staff to organize the same service in their provinces. I think with a proper, up to date, organization in the different provinces we could save large tracts of forest from the fires that are caused by railway trains and by smokers cruising the forests. I hope the Forestry Association will continue its good work and that the department will substantially help it with a grant.
To pay expenses connected wdtJi water-power investigations and reports in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and the railway belt in British Columbia, $144,000.


Frank S. Cahill: This seems a large item in these times.


Arthur Meighen: There is a reduction of $15,000 as compared with last year, although I do not think there has been any reduction in the volume of work carried on.
I do not see how we could afford, even now, to neglect to procure all possible information about the primary sources- of our power -and -make it available for- capital, because there never was- a time when water-powers were -more needed than now, and there never will be a time when the development of our water-powers will mean, so much to this country .as wiithin -the next ten years.


Ernest Lapointe: Are these investigations carried on only in those provinces where the natural resources are- owned by the Dominion Government?


Arthur Meighen: While we give special attention to the water-powers that are owned by the Dominion, we make arrangements with the provinces -to place our staff at their disposal on fair terms, meaning in every case a charge u-pon us. We have already made such an arrangement with Nova Scotia and are making a similar arrangement, I understand, with New Brunswick and are prepared to do so with any province.
For surveys and works under the Irrigation Act, etc., including $400 for P. Marchand as auditor of disbursements made by companies acquiring lands under the Irrigation system, $169,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Would the minister leave an item on -which I could discuss irrigation matters, as I have .not the data with me now? '	_


Arthur Meighen: Yes. We will leave one item.
Canadian National Parks, $3-0-0,000-.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Is this for the 'buffalo herds and such like?


Arthur Meighen: This includes- all the parks. We have over three thousand buffalo, and I believe the calf crop this- year is estimated at between seven and eight hundred.


Rodolphe Lemieux: They multiply fast.


Arthur Meighen: They are doing very well.
Administration of the -North West Game Act and the Migratory Birds Act, $18,000.-


Rodolphe Lemieux: I do not remember just what was the scope of the Migratory Birds Act passed a year or so ago, but I should

like to call the minister's attention to a famous pock /in the -Gulf of St. Lawrence called Birds' rock. It is one of the most picturesque sights in the Gulf, and in normal times is visited every year by many tourists from America and even. Europe, who go there to see the millions of birds- and there are literally millions of them. Some years ago some enterprising American and even. Canadian, 'business men started .to kill the- birds for use in ornamenting ladies' hats, and the eggs were stolen with a view to selling them. I do not know whether the Migratory Birds Act applies to those sea birds in the Gulf of St. Lawrence or not but I would ask my hon. friend to look into this matter and geit some information in regard to it. It would be a sorry day if these bird species were to disappear from Canada. When I say that there are millions of birds on this rock I do not exaggerate. The rock itself is about the size of the grounds around this building and there is enough space on the top of the rock, which is about three hundred feet^ high, to enable the lighthouse keeper to live there. He has a cow or two and he can have a few hens on the rock, but all the sides of the rock are inhabited by these birds. When the steamer goes nearby it is easy to see these birds by the millions, btrange to say, the first people to protest against the destruction of these birds were the Boston people. They are very good people as I know. I remember having read in some publication in, New England a protest against the destruction of these birds The Migratory Birds Act should apply to sea birds as well as to land ibirds. Does my hon. friend know anything about this matter?


Arthur Meighen: The rock to which my hon. friend refers, I believe, is called Perce rock.


Rodolphe Lemieux: 
Arthur Meighen: 
Rodolphe Lemieux: Has the department been in communication with the Quebec Government in regard to the matter?


Arthur Meighen: Yes.


Rodolphe Lemieux: If it is the intention of the department to make these two rocks sanctuaries for birds 'I would assist my hon. friend with the Quebec Government, because I think it is the wish of the people of Canada as -a whole that these birds should -be preserved.


John Howard Sinclair: Is it the duty of anybody to see that the Act is enforced along the coasts of the Maritime Provinces?


Arthur Meighen: The Act is based on the principle of provincial co-operation, and *as the provinces have jurisdiction it is the intention that each province shall pass an Act conforming to this Act and take charge of its administration.
Engraving, lithographing, printing and preparation of maps, plans and kindred publications of the Dominion, including necessary materials for same, $74,37S.


Frank S. Cahill: What is the cause of the increase in this item?


Arthur Meighen: It is entirely due to the increased cost of paper.


Jacques Bureau: Should not the expense under this particular heading be decreased? I understand that- a great deal of the expenditure for lithographing and printing, and for the preparation of maps, and so on, heretofore, has been incurred by the Immigration Branch in its work of attracting immigrants to Canada?


Arthur Meighen: That is a different item altogether. This particular work is under the chief geographer. What my hon. friend refers to would be under the Natural Resources Commission. This particular vote consists of two divisions. The sum of $31,100 is the estimate of the chief geographer, which shows an increase of $600. What my hon. friend refers to has nothing to do with that. The next item is the estimate of the Superintendent of the Natural Resources Intelligence Branch, $35,000, which shows an increase of $7,675. That increase also is due entirely to a thirty per cent increase in the cost of printing.


Jacques Bureau: Does not the expenditure for the preparation of maps showing, the mining areas, the timber areas, etc., in Canada, come under the item of Natural Resources?


Arthur Meighen: Yes.


Jacques Bureau: Is not that part of the literature which is used by the Immigration Department?


Arthur Meighen: No. If so, it would come under the immigration vote. This is for maps and reports of practical value in placing before the public accurate, graphic evidence of the economic aspect of the natural resources of the Dominion; special attention being given to those resources the development of which is essential on account of the war. It is vitally necessary, in view of the economic conditions in Canada, that the Dominion be in a position to meet legitimate inquiries concerning these resources and their development. The present year has shown an increase of 107 per cent oveT the preceding year in the demand for information of this nature.


Jacques Bureau: The other day I received a report which I have not yet had time to carefully peruse. It seems to be the report of the commission appointed by the Government to investigate the natural resources of Canada, its mining possibilities, and so forth. May I ask if that commission is the same as that now under discussion?


Arthur Meighen: I do not know what
commission my hon. friend refers to, unless i.t would be the Economic and Development Commission. If that is so that commission procured a great deal of its data from our Natural Resources Intelligence Branch, which is under Mr. F. C. C. Lynch.
Mr. BURE.AU: To whom does the commission which I have reference to, report?


Arthur Meighen: To the Prime Minister, at least that is my recollection.


Jacques Bureau: Is he the minister in
charge of that particular commission?
Mr. MiETGHEN:	I think the commisr
sion referred to was appointed in something like the same manner as the Food Controller was appointed at first, and that it is reporting direct to the Prime Minister. I may be wrong, but that is my impression. There is a commission known as the Imperial Resources Commission, which I think is under Colonel Cantlie.


Jacques Bureau: Can any of the information which is obtained from Mr. Lynch's branch be used by the commission under Colonel Cantlie, and is this an Imperial or a Dominion commission?
Mr. MEIGiHIEN:	A Dominion commission. I think it is known as the Imperial Resources Commission.


Jacques Bureau: So it appears we have triplicate commissions engaged in kindred work. There is the commission to inquire into our economic resources, another to inquire into our industrial resources, and the one that we are considering dealing with our natural resources. I suggest to the minister that money might be saved by handing over to these commissions the information collected by his department, so that it can be used by them in conducting their investigations.
Mr. MEI-GHBN:	While it may be true
that the Imperial Resources Commission obtained information from the Natural Resources Intelligence .Branch, they would hot get' from it all the information that is to be found embodied in their reports. I have seen some of the reports of that commission and they seem to me to be very valuable. The present vote is for maps. There is, for example, the homestead map of Manitoba, Saskatchewan .and Alberta, for which a vote of $7,150 is asked. This series of homestead maps is in demand more and more every year. There is a similar homestead map of Northern- Alberta; an elevator map of 'Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta; a serial map of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, .and, in addition, there are' bank maps. These comprise a bank map of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, a bank map of Ontario and Quebec, a bank map of the Maritime -Provinces, a bank map of British Columbia, and so forth. I may say that the hon. member can get access to these maps- -at any time, and they will show the position that every parcel of land is in-whether it is iCrown land, or whether it is homestead land, and if so, of what character; whether it is alienated or not, and if it is alienated, whether it is cultivated or not; if it is not alienated, whether it is cultivated or not.


Jacques Bureau: Are the maps printed
each year?
Mr. (MEIGHKN:	This is the sixteenth
edition of the homestead maps. I d-o not think the map II have just described was ever printed before until this year. I think Mr. Lynch has only completed those maps recently. The value of the information obtainable from them, and their clearness, is a real revelation.


Jacques Bureau: Does that cover the three provinces of Manitoba, Alberta, and Saskatchewan?


Arthur Meighen: Yes.


Jacques Bureau: Some of these maps were s-ent to me during the recess on which the homestead lands taken up and their character were indicated by shades of colour. I would like to know if the same map, showing the lands disposed of, is printed every year, and if so why the old "cut" could not be used, with appropriate markings to show what lands had been disposed of in the interval?


Arthur Meighen: That doubtless is done with reference to the homestead maps, but the new maps; were not intended for homestead maps. I think the natural resources map contains information that never was shown before.


Jacques Bureau: In what line?


Arthur Meighen: As to the cultivation, as to the purposes for which the lands are being used, and the purposes for which they are yet available.
Mr. E. -LAPOINTE: The hon. gentleman speaks of a Dominion commission under the control of this Government bearing the name of the Imperial Resources -Commission.


Arthur Meighen: Yes.


Ernest Lapointe: Does not the minister think the resources of this country are primarily national resources, -and that the good old name of National Resources Commission should be retained? What is the meaning of " Imperial Resources Commission?"


Arthur Meighen: I may have the name wrong, but I do not think I have. I think the significance of it is- entirely misapprehended by my hon. friend.


Ernest Lapointe: I do not like these names which .mean nothing.


Arthur Meighen: They have no particular repugnance to me. The word " Imperial " there, if it is the proper word, would be intended to signify this: the resources of Canada, belonging to Canada solely, that could be used for the Imperial purposes of the war. It may be " Imperial War Resources Commission," I am not quite sure. Rut I think the word " Imperial " is used


Ernest Lapointe: Is the hon. gentleman sure that it is intended only for the war?


Arthur Meighen: Yes. All the reports I saw in reference to that, I am sure, are cnly for the purpose of the war.

[DOT]2227


Jacques Bureau: Even if they are only for the war, why not name it the Canadian Resources Commission? That would not prevent the resources of Canada being used by Great Britain.-


An hon. MEMBER:: Or 'by the Allies.


Jacques Bureau: I think the point raised by my hon. friend from Kamouraska (Mr. E. Lapointe) is well taken. If it is a question of the natural resources which we are to supply to the Allies, in the shape of ore or anything else, they should be furnished as coming from Canada, as Canadian and not Imperial. That will arouse a proper spirit, and make our people develop proper pride, and perhaps we may come closer together if the word "Canadian" is held more in honour.


Ernest Lapointe: I am glad the President of the Council (Mr. Rowell) is now in his seat. As he is going to leave shortly for England, I am glad he has listened to the remarks that have just been made, and hope that he will make everybody understand that the resources of Canada are national resources, Canadian resources.


Jacques Bureau: The same as all the rest.


Mr. ROWELL:: I am glad to have heard the remarks of my hon. friend. I always listen to him with pleasure.


Jacques Bureau: The listening is very easy. What impression has it made on the hon. gentleman?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Very favourable.


Jacques Bureau: It is not the listening we care about, it is what will be the result of the listening when he goes over to the other side. We want to know what impression he is getting.


Newton Wesley Rowell: A very favourable impression.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: While we are on this subject, I may suggest a compromise. We will call it the "British-Canadian War Resources Commission."


Jacques Bureau: I take exception to that. I think there is an imputation in the use of the term "British-Canadian." We all know that what is Canadian is British. I object to that name being accepted.
Ordnance Liands, salaries and expenses, $1,6*5.


Jacques Bureau: I do not know whether the minister has the information at hand, but if he has not, I take this opportunity of asking him if he would send me a letter
regarding ordnance lands in Trois Rivieres.
I have tried to get exactly what the area of these lands is, situated in the centre of the city, where the public buildings are erected. I once made application to get a plan, but did not get what I wanted. I would ask t'he minister if it would not be possible to get a plan or blueprint showing the limits of this property.


Arthur Meighen: I will procure that and send it 'to the hon. member.


Sir SAM HUGHES:: If I remember
rightly, these lands are in charge of the Militia Department. Plans were sent to the hon. member once before, I remember looking it up. All the lands we hold there are the drill hall, the parade ground up on the hill, and some land on the hill.


Jacques Bureau: What I received was a plan of the military camp, which is under the control of the Militia Department. But the land in the centre of the town, on the river front, was not indicated on that plan.


Samuel Hughes: I thought it was.
Grant to Alpine Cluib of Canada, $1,000.


Andrew Ross McMaster: I would like to know what this cluib is and why it should be an object of public benefactions.


Arthur Meighen: That question occurred to me also when the item was under review. But it is thought that the grant is worth the money. It is much on the same principle as the grant to our parks. The advertisement which the mountains and scenery of Canada receive through the activities' of the club is worth the money to this country, just on the same principle as by the tourist traffic encouraged the money spent on our parks is becoming more -and more an asset and a profitable investment for this country.


Andrew Ross McMaster: Mr. Chairman, I have listened with care to the explanation made by the minister, hut I must say that I cannot follow him in what he says. Mountain climbing is .a sport of wealthy folk, and the Government propose to give, at a time of stress and strain like this, one thousand dollars to this club. I protested very strongly the other evening against a grant of $5,000 to assist in- cultivating the habit of eating fish in Toronto, in other words a gift of $5,000 to the Toronto Exhibition, which the Minister of Marine and Fisheries told me was to be spent on fish dinners.


Rodolphe Lemieux: It is a good thing for Toronto to eat fish.


Andrew Ross McMaster: That is not the question. What I would impress very strongly upon the minister is that the Government are asking the people of Canada for sacrifice, and are properly asking the people to economize in every possible way. What will the man on the small salary-for he ;s the man above all who is hit hard by present conditions-think when he hears that the Dominion Government has given $1,000 to a club of rich folk to climb mountains in the West? It may be quite proper to encourage this sport in time of peace, although I doubt it very much. I am not in favour of this artificial stimulation of the climbing industry or any other industry. In time of war this is an improper grant, and I hope the minister will follow tne dictates of his own common sense by cutting it out altogether. If I can find a seconder I will so move, unless the minister feels he should cut it out. It should not be in the Estimates in the fourth year of a world war.


Samuel Hughes: Is this a grant to the Alpine Club or is it to support the Swiss mountaineers who are laying out paths all through the Rockies? I understand there are a number of Swiss mountaineers living in the Columbia valley, who are opening up pathways all through the mountains for the use of rich and poor. Is the grant for them or for the Alpine Club?


Arthur Meighen: It is a vote to the Alpine Club direct; it has nothing to do with the people referred to by my hon. friend (ISir Sam Hughes). The member for Brome (Mr. McMaster) is proceeding on a wrong hypothesis. The club is not ah association of rich people. Indeed, one who has been active in its work is a poorly-paid Presbyterian minister. Others are school teachers. .	.


Andrew Ross McMaster: If we make a special . grant to the poor Presbyterian minister,
I shall not object so strongly. But I do not like this grant to the club and I ask the minister to withdraw it.


Arthur Meighen: The vote is not in the nature of a charitable grant; it is in the nature of an investment. The work of this association is of an exploratory character and is of benefit to the country because of the advertising which it gives to Canada. They publish an annual report, which goes all over the world.


Andrew Ross McMaster: I move that this item be struck out.
{.Mr. Lemieux.]


Arthur Meighen: I suggest that this item pass, because it is part of one estimate, and if this item .stands the whole estimate will have to stand. The member for Maisonneuve (Mr. Lemieux) may bring up the matter he* wishes to discuss under the Indian Lands estimates.


Rodolphe Lemieux: All right.
Amendment (Mr. .McMaster) negatived on division.


Rodolphe Lemieux: If the hon. gentleman has any more estimates, let us take them now, and then adjourn.


Andrew Ross McMaster: Let us sit to-night and get through.	[DOT]


Jacques Bureau: We can keep on until eight o'clock and then adjourn.


Samuel Hughes: What is the proposal; are we to sit after six?
The 'CHAIRMAN: The understanding is that, by mutual consent, the Committee will sit until the Indian Lands estimates are passed, and that when the Committee rises the House will adjourn until Monday at eleven o'clock.
Soldiers' L/and Settlement, $2,916,000.


Arthur Meighen: This is the first, vote
under the 'Soldier Settlement Act, 1917. The Soldier Settlement Board, appointed on January 31st last under the Act, consists of Mr. Samuel Maber, acting chairman, formerly head of the British Columbia Lands Branch of the Department
6 p'.m. of the Interior, who is serving on this board without extra -salary; Mr. C. F. Rowland, and Major Ashton. Mr. Maber is an old officer of the department and was appointed, in order that we might have the benefit of hi's wide experience and 'his excellent ability as a departmental officer. The activities of the board were first addressed to the taking care of such loans to returned soldiers as .would be necessary to enable them to do their spring seeding. Very satisfactory results have been accomplished. Applications have been disposed of to the number of 272. The advances in loans amount to $341,558, an average for each settler of $1,256. The Dominion land agencies throughout the country have been made agencies of the Soldier Settlement Board in order to avoid the expense of a duplicated organization.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Have you adopted the
famous Van Home plan of radial colonies? Do you take the lands here and there with-

out regard to the number of returned soldiers applying for them.


Arthur Meighen: We do not select the
land for them. The soldier .may settle on Dominion lands and get free entry. It is quite true that only a limited area of good land is available, but I t'h'ink there is enough to enable the board to be very useful to the soldier, for * time at all events. So far the board has not encouraged settlement in communities, the soldier may 'buy his own land anywhere, or if he has land and can give the board a first mortgage thereon, he is entitled to (a twenty-year loan at 5 per cent. This is 'the class of men who have so far chiefly availed themselves of the Act, although in some cases they have gone on unpat-*ented homestead lands. I cannot say how [DOT]many have made entries because our regulations have only recently been adopted. The machinery, however, is complete for taking care of entries made by returned soldiers.
Mr. PETER MeGIBBON (Muskoka): Is it the intention of the board to allot this land at present? If the area of available land is limited, what will be done in the case of soldiers who return two or three years hence?


Arthur Meighen: In governmental services we very seldom make arrangements for two or three years hence. It is sufficient to take care of the present and the immediate future. As a matter of general policy, however, it is my desire and the desire of the Government to work 'towards co-operative arrangements with the various provinces. Some progress has already been made to t^at end. We want to make arrangements whereby the assistance of the Dominion Government can be given to provincial plans and policies of soldier settlement, because we want to have regard to the fundamental principle of our constitution that the control of patented lands, civil rights and local administration is in the province.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Is there any intention of giving the soldier in the province of Ontario assistance to locate on land or in such business as he might carry on?


Arthur Meighen: Yes. We have not yet got our organization in Ontario. We had first to take care of those districts from which the demands for land came, or where there was an immediate necessity of providing money, but we are now engaged in the work of establishing an organization in
Ontario. It will be available for all soldiers settling in Ontario who select, or who have, land in that province and can avail themselves of the privilege of the Act and give the Soldier Settlement Board a mortgage on their land. Amy one so settling can get a loan of $2,500 if the value of his land warrants that being done. As to any [DOT] scheme of soldier settlement generally, we hope, having in view the acquirement of land for the purpose, to work in co-operation with the Ontario Government.


Frank S. Cahill: What basis of security is the Government taking for the loans they have made to the 272 settlers? I was in the office of the Soldier Settlement Board some time ago, and from the regulations as outlined to me by one of the commissioners, it did not seem to me that the proposal was of any great benefit to the soldier. I understood the purpose was to advance to the soldier settler about fifty per cent of the value of his land' or undertaking. He could borrow as much as that from any one, but he is, perhaps;, getting it at a little better rate of interest than be would be charged by a loan company.


Arthur Meighen: He gets very consider-, able advantages. There is, of course, a limit to what can be done, because we must remember that the number of returned soldiers now is small as compared with what it will be, and that the standard of assistance set for one must be set for all. The soldier is entitled to get a loan, first of all on his soldier entry to which he does not get title. That loan nobody else can get. The soldier gets it at five per cent, repayable on the amortization plan in twenty years. He gets it without cost; he has no solicitor's fees to pay, as that is all taken care of by the board. And the soldier is able to get a larger per cent of the value of his property as a loan than would the ordinary settler.


Frank S. Cahill: What per cent?


Arthur Meighen: It varies, depending upon the quantity of lands immediately available for cultivation, on the revenue bearing power of the property more than on its immediate value in the market. But I think as high as 70 or 75 per cent has been advanced.


Mr. MOWAT:: The question asked by my hon. and gallant friend from Muskoka (Mr. Peter McGibbon) raises a question which I am not sure has sunk into the mind of either the minister or any other hon. member. My hon. friend has pointed

to the time "when the boys come home." At the present time there are vastly greater numbers overseas than there are in Canada, *and I am told there is a feeling overseas that the soldiers' interests should wait for consideration until the main body comes home. Here is a question again as to there being just so much available land, and it is very important that the Government should keep in mind that the main body is still overseas. As I understand the matter, soldiers are divided im feeling to some- extent. Two returned soldiers have called upon me lately protesting against claims that have been presented by selfconstituted champions of the returned soldiers.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Who are they? Veterans?


Herbert Macdonald Mowat: These soldiers want the main considerations to wait until everybody is represented. I should like the House to keep this in mind when we are dealing with the returned soldier, that there is the quiet returned soldier and there is the one who meets with his fellows and passes resolutions which may be in his interest but with which the others do not agree. I do not know how far this difference extends, but it is there, and it is important for us to remember there are different kinds of returned soldiers and that they have different ideas as to what they want.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I am at a loss to understand exactly what my hon. friend means by his language about the returned soldiers. Does he mean to say that some of them are so disreputable that we should not believe what they say? I understand there is a Great War Veterans' Association which speaks for the returned soldiers-generally. Does my hon. friend mean to say that the Government should not listen to the claims of the veterans, but should wait until the other soldiers who are still overseas return to Canada? What the hon. gentleman states is all mythical.


John Gillanders Turriff: Did I understand the minister to say that when a soldier applies under this Act for a quarter-section he can take a homestead whether he has had one previously or not?


Arthur Meighen: If he is entitled to a homestead, he gets one.


John Gillanders Turriff: I should like to know if any provision has been made so that a soldier can get a bonus of a few hundred dollars in lieu of applying for a homestead under this Act, and still have the right to [iMr. Mowat. ]
borrow $2,500. I have had a long experience in the West of men going on land under the tutelage of associations, or governments, or colonization companies, and as a rule, those people have failed. When an association has placed people on lands in the West and advanced money and taken mortgages on their farms in nine cases out of ten, or in nineteen cases out of twenty, those people have failed. I do not say that a man who is a farmer and who takes land under this Act will not make a success of it, but the great bulk of them will not be farmers. I don't care what conditions hedge around the grant of $2,500, or what precautions are taken to see that the men buy the right kind of horses and implements, in two or three years these men, who are forty or fifty miles away from a railway, will have spent that money and mortgaged their land, and the Government will have to take the land back and the money will be gone. The soldiers who take up land under this scheme will cost the country a lot of money in the end, for many of them will not make good, to put it mildly. I think it would be better for the country and more in the interest of the soldier in many cases, to give him the option of a cash bonus. T would ask the minister to consider that suggestion in the hope that when we meet next session something along that line will be done.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: This is the biggest question, I believe, that is before this country to-day, and I rather deprecate the idea of forcing it through like this. I think we should let the matter stand oiver until Monday to give hon. gentlemen an opportunity of expressing their views and hearing what the policy of the Government is in the matter.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I would suggest that if we are not going to thresh it out now we had better rise and come back at eight o'clock, because we all want to get away on Wednesday, aftd if we devote Monday to discussing this matter that will be so much time lost for other legislation.


Arthur Meighen: I am quite prepared to make a statement of policy in so far as it is possible at this date to do so, and to give all the details that can- be given. As to soldier settlement, there is only one statute now under which soldier settlement takes place. Provisions have been made with regard to a soldier taking an entry on Dominion lands, and on other lands, provisions have also been made for the administration of the Act, and the board is in

active operation. We have entered into negotiations, which I think are virtually completed, with one province, looking to an arrangement whereby that province assumes supervision of its soldier settlement and receives financial assistance from the Dominion to enable it to take care of by far the greater portion of the financial obligations thus entailed. We have now under review similar arrangements with other provinces, and I am in hopes that we shall succeed in coming to an agreement. I (believe that is the proper principle. I believe that toy local administration you will get the best results both for the soldier and for the country. I do not think any good is done by merely making an advance to the soldier and placing him on the land. I thoroughly agree with the hon. member for Assiniboda (Mr. Turriff). I have seen too much of settlement tooth in Eastern and Western Canada,seen too many attempts to make men. farmers by capital advances', to have much faith in that method ever making a man a success on the land.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Did the minister ever
conceive the idea of the Dominion Government cultivating the land for the first two years and letting the soldier learn how to farm during that time, and receiving his pay, so that at the end of the period he could take the land over with some knowledge of farming? There are other policies besides that of the minister that I would like to discuss.	.
Mr. (MEIGHEN:	That method has certainly been thought of 'by myself. It has been given more than thought by one province. The province of Ontario has adopted the principle of provincial assistance, accurately described, I think, toy my hon. friend. I make this suggestion to the committee: That having in mind the principle which animates my hon. friend from Park-dale (Mr. Mowat), having in mind the wisdom of not going too fast at the present time, having in mind the fact that the great majority of the soldiers are overseas, and that they should have a say in. the final disposition of this property as well as those at home, I think it would he well to watch the development of the project in Ontario, to see how it works out, and what lessons we can gain from it, before committing ourselves to any particular policy. The scheme in Ontario is well under way, and I think that before the next session of Parliament we can form very intelligent conclusions as to the success of the enterprise, and whether or not it embodies sound principles of settlement. Fot the present I think it would he well to keep in mind the main goal of making the soldier settlement a success by personal supervision on the part of the board both as regards unpatented land and land owned by the soldier, and confine outside operations .to an endeavour to make suitable arrangements with the provinces whereby they can carry on successful provincial schemes.


Frank S. Cahill: Would an 'arrangement
with other provinces similar to that made with Ontario involve giving to the provinces their natural resources?


Arthur Meighen: We have no arrangement with Ontario. That province has not approached us in regard to the matter. Ontario has a policy of its own along the line stated by my hon. friend from North Perth (Mr. Morphy), of taking an area of land, purchased or its own property, improving that area, and making individual settlements out of it by the utilization of soldier labour, paying the soldiers for their work with a view to selling them the land ultimately on terms.


Frank S. Cahill: An arrangement of that kind would he impossible unless the province had the land.


Arthur Meighen: Or acquired it.


Frank S. Cahill: A province would hardly be likely to acquire land seeing the Dominion Government owns vast areas.


Arthur Meighen: The province would not acquire land owned by us, but provinces that have full control or ownership of the land can bring the land under 'a scheme of co-operation with the Government.


Mr. SUTHERLAND:: Will it be optional for the soldier to come under a provincial or a Dominion scheme? Has he to take up land in a particular province? The Dominion lands are in Western Canada.


Arthur Meighen: We put no restraint on the soldier at all, tout it is quite true we are able to offer greater inducements in the West because we own the lands there. On the other hand the provinces in the East can offer greater inducements if they Iwish, under their own individual policy, so I think the balance is about fair.


Mr. MANION:: 
Arthur Meighen: That point is well taken, and we are intending to meet that difficulty by the establishment of offices in Ontario for the taking of soldiers' applications in this province.. We will have an inspector and a supervisor for that purpose.


Robert James Manion: In the near future?


Arthur Meighen: In the very near future.


Robert James Manion: I think it should be a Dominion-wide proposition.
Department of Indian Affairs-salaries, including A. S. Williams, Daw Clerk at $2,900, $133,075 ; contingencies, $19,000.


Mr. LEVI THOMSON:: As we are dealing with the estimates of the Department of Indian Affairs, I wish to refer to- a matter about which I spoke to the hon. the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Meighen). It is in connection with certain charges against Mr. Taylor, now agent at the Crooked Lake Indian Deserve. Under the old1 system I had the patronage of the Government for seven years and I never in my life asked for the dismissal of' a single individual, and never have I countenanced anything in that way. But I must admit that on the present occasion I feel that it is time that an official of the department who has not been dismissed should1 be dismissed, and I trust that the department will take some action in the matter. Last fall and winter I heard so many complaints about this agent, Mr. Taylor, that I thought it would be well to go into the case.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Where is he located?


Levi Thomson: A short distance north of Broadview near where I live. I therefore invited some of the people who were complaining of his actions to meet me at Broadview on a certain occasion. I asked Mr. Boyer also, the clerk of the agency, who was more or less conversant with what had 'been going on, to meet me there. I did not make any attempt to have a thorough investigation into the affairs in connection with the agency, but while I was satisfied that I had only touched the fringe of the wrong-doing of the agent I felt that I had heard enough to justify me in asking the department to immediately suspend the agent pending inquiry, to institute a thorough inquiry into his conduct, and also to recommend that the investigation be not placed wholly in the hands of Commissioner Graham. I did not wish then, nor do I wish now, to- question the fact that Mr. Graham is a very competent official, but there were what appeared to me good reasons why Mr. Graham should

not be the sole investigator in that particular case. The department provided for an investigation by Mr. Graham alone, but did not suspend the agent, thereby leaving the people from whom the evidence against him must mainly come under the thumb of the accused'. That was not a correct principle. This investigation was, to my mind, anything but thorough. I believe, however, that the evidence brought out not only justified the dismissal of the official but made it the duty of the department to dismiss him. The Indian Act, section 42, provides among other things that:
No official or employee connected with the Inside or Outside Service of the Department of Indian Affairs .... shall without special license in writing of the Superintendent General trade with any Indian or sell to him directly or indirectly any goods or supplies, Cattle or other animals.
Section 131 provides that in case of violation- of the provisions of this section, the person so violating shall be liable to a fine equal in- -amount to double th-e -sum received for -the goods, supplies, cattle or other -an-imaiis sold.
And, in addition to that, the costs of the prosecution.
Mr. Taylor -admits purchasing the following goods from Indians:	-
1.	Hide from Old Francis.
2.	Hide from Kenowekesequake.
3.	Pony from Stevenson.
He -admits having made the following Sales to Indians:
1.	Horse to Stevenson, bought at $142, sold to Indian at $175.
2.	Horse to Kenoweswanwetang, which he claims belonged to his father's estate.
3.	Horse to Zac Le Rat. Mr. Sugden says Mr. Taylor (bought (this horse from him at $126. This is not denied by Taylor. The clerk says the hooks show the horse was sold at $160. This price is not denied -by Mr. Taylor.
4.	Horse sold to Angus Alex. Mr. Sugden says he sold this horse to Taylor for $120, and the clerk says the books show the horse was sold at $140. Mr. Taylor does not deny either of these prices.
5.	Horse to Tom Shesheep. Mr. Taylor says this horse belonged to his father's estate.
6.	Horse to Harry Faval. Mr. Taylor says this was one of his father's horses.
Here are nine, or if we count the two deals with 'Stevenson as one trade, at least eight, distinct violations of a very important provision of the Indian Act. It seems to me that the policy of maintaining -an Indian Agent in charge of a reserve who habitually violates one of the most important provisions of the Act is one that cannot be countenanced by any one who wants to see the Department of Indian

Affairs carried on as it .should/ be. Mr. Taylor said:
I knew that the regulations prohibited me from dealing with Indians.
He showed nothing but contempt for the law and the department, /shows little more respect for it in continuing in office an agent who thus openly and repeatedly violated one of the most important provisions of the Act under which he is working. Harry Cameron, the interpreter, who can hardly be accused of unfriendliness to the agent, in answer to a question says:
The agent often makes deals with the Indians, and I don't think he loses anything. I don't know how much he makes.
Neither do I know how much he makes nor is the department likely to know how much he makes until a more thorough investigation is held. The investigation, however, shows that in three of the deals referred to he sold for $475 horses that he had bought for $388, and so far as I can find the department has not punished him, or even asked for a refund of the difference.
Notwithstanding these many serious violations of the provisions of the Act, Mr. Graham in his report glosses them over by saying:
The Department's regulations state that no employee shall trade with the Indians, but I don't think that this regulation was intended to apply to employees purchasing berries, baskets, wood, water or hay for their own private stock on the reserve, and if not I cannot see that purchasing a hide to be used as a robe for one's family should be considered as exceptional.
Evidently Mr. Graham seems to think it is	only	in	exceptional	cases	that lawbreakers should be punished. I think it is	only	in	exceptional	oases	that they
should be allowed to go scot free. Further on he says with regard to those breaches of law:	_
There is no doubt at all but Mr. Taylor has been exceedingly indiscreet in his dealings with the Indians. He should have obtained permission from you before selling horses to them.
" Indiscreet " 'is a very gentle term to use in this connection. Still I suppose every law-breaker is " indiscreet." Speaking of Taylor's deal with Stevenson, Mr. Graham says:
I am satisfied there was no intention on his part to make anything out of the Indian.
This in face of the fact that Taylor himself says:
I consider I made $27.30 assuming the pony was worth $50.

f

And he does not appear from the evidence to question the fact that the pony he got from Stevenson in the trade was worth $50.
Mr. Graham, during the investigation, made this statement:
The late farm instructor Sugden states you have been in the habit frequently of using the Government blacksmith shop (at the agency) for repairing your own farm things, using coal and iron, the property of the department. Tour own men and yourself did the work.
Mr. Taylor says in reply:
I do not remember working there myself, but my man used it two or three times doing private work.
No denial is made of the charge of applying the Government coal and iron to his own use. Mr. Sugden, in his statement, says that Mr. Taylor had his private threshing engine repaired in. that way, .but no notice of this was taken at the investigation. With regard to the tools said to have been taken from the Government threshing outfit, and afterwards found in Mr. Taylor's possession, that gentleman said, in answer to a question.:
Yes, I had the tools, they are still in my car in the shed, I think.
Regarding the charges of using the Government blacksmith shop, the Government coal, and Government iron and tools, Mr. Graham says in his report:
Mr. Taylor admits his hired man used the Government blacksmith shop on two or three occasions doing private work. He also admits having used on his own motor, tools that belonged to the threshing outfit. It seems to me this latter charge is ridiculous.
It will be noticed that Taylor says, with regard to the tools: " I have the .tools," while /Mr. Graham softens it down by saying he had used them. The charge may, in Mr. Graham's mind, be ridiculous, but I am satisfied that had any one else appropriated the Government's property in this way, and had the fact come to Mr. Graham's attention, the offender would have been prosecuted for theft. I think these repeated breaches of the provisions of the Indian Act, and improper dealings with Government property should have insured the dismissal of the agent. I would not be taking up the time of the House, however, but for the fact that s/erious charges of immorality are made against this agent. I am satisfied that even the faint-hearted investigation held disclosed a state of affairs that called for his dismissal. It seems to me the House will agree that this is a very serious thing on,



the part of an Indian agent. We know that the Indians are somewhat susceptible people, and it seems to me that it ought to be understood at all times that no one should be employed in the capacity of agent against whose moral conduct anything can be said. I am told that these charges of immorality against Indian agents and officials are very common-in fact, I am given to understand they are levelled against all of them. That may or may not be true, but as far as regards the particular locality of which I speak-and I have been living there for the last thirty-five or forty years- this is the first time I ever heard any suggestion of the kind with respect to the Indian agents on the Crooked Lake or Assiniboine reserves.
M'r. Graham appears to recognize the incompleteness of the evidence forthcoming, but seeks to lay the blame on some one else. So far as I know I was the only person laying any charges, but Mr. Graham chooses to ignore me altogether, and the investigation was over before I knew it was being held. Mr. Graham tries to throw the responsibility for what happened on Mr. Boyer, the clerk, and says of him:
He Iras had every opportunity to have witnesses at the investigation to corroborate the charges made by the Indians and others, but there were none, and it was only a case ot one person's word against another's.
Now Mr. Boyer has advised me that on the day the investigation commenced, Mr. Graham and his secretary arrived at the agency about 2 p.m., and they said nothing whatever to Boyer about any impending investigation until about 5.30 p.m., when that gentleman wa:s preparing to go to his home. Then it was that he received the first intimation that an investigation was to be held. He was instructed by Mr. Graham to be present at the office at 7 p.m., when the investigation was commenced. Boyer has assured me that it was never intimated to him that he was to be in any way responsible for the prosecution, or that he had any authority to call witnesses. Mr. Boyer appears to have had connection with only five charges.. On three of these Mr. Graham finds the charges proved. On another, with regard to oats, he finds Mr. Taylor's actions irregular and unbusinesslike.
I dislike very much taking up the time of the House with regard to any matter of this kind. I dislike to find fault with any official of the Government, hut I believe the situation is so serious there that the dismissal of this official is necessary. I do not propose to stand by while any offi-
IMr. Thomson.]
cial, in a locality so near to my home as this is, acts in the manner in which this official has acted, without raising my protest against it.


Arthur Meighen: 
Arthur Meighen: 
Rodolphe Lemieux: 
Arthur Meighen: 
Arthur Meighen: I will call the attention of the deputy to both matters.
Indians-Nova Scotia, salaries, etc., $24,300.


John Howard Sinclair: The agent at
Heatherton in the county of Antigonish departed this life recently. Has the minister appointed a successor yet?


Arthur Meighen: When did he die?


John Howard Sinclair: Only a few weeks ago?	[DOT]


Arthur Meighen: No, I have not.


John Howard Sinclair: How will the selection of a new Indian agent be made?


Arthur Meighen: The appointment will
probably be made by the Governor in 'Council on the recommendation of the commission.


John Howard Sinclair: Will applications be received from persons desirous of filling the position?


Arthur Meighen: Applications should be sent to the commission.


John Howard Sinclair: The agent who occupied this position some years ago is still at Heatherton. He was dismissed after the change of Government in 1911 in order to make room for the friends of the late administration. He had been a satisfactory officer. As this is not a partisan Government I tho lgbt that pe.haps the six or seven years he has been out of office would be sufficient punishment tor having voted Liberal, and that the minister might consider the question of reappointing him. I do not know whether it is in order to say anything, because now theie is no patronage and I am not at liberty to write a letter to say that he is a good man. He held office for a number of years with great satisfaction to everybody and he was removed in 1911 with a host of others in .Nova Scotia. I think he would take the office back if it were offered him.


Arthur Meighen: What is his name?
Mr. J. II. SINCLAIR: John R. McDonald.


Mr MEIGHEN:: I will look into the matter. The salary is $200.


C0MM0N3
[Stage Direction]
Indians-Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and Northwest Territories, $508,149.
Mr. TWEEDIE:: With regard to the Mor-ley and Blood reserves in Alberta I think there are some matters to be taken up by the hon. member for Macleod (Mr. Shaw) and by myself. I presume we can discuss these later on.
Mr. MEIGHEN Yes.


Mr. KNOX:: This appropriation is $50,000 less than last year. It is very unwise to cut down any of the appropriation in these provinces. We have >a number of reserves in Northern Saskatchewan capable of producing foodstuffs at the present time. We have suitable land there and a large amount of cheap labour on the reserves. I do not wish to say very much on the subject, but I feel very strongly the importance of not reducing the appropriation.


Arthur Meighen: I quite agree with the hon. member. The reductions here will not interfere with that. We have a special vote for that purpose.
Progress reported.
On motion of Hon. Mr. Carvell the House adjourned at 6.57 p.m.
Monday, May 20, 1918,