1918-03-22

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 6, respecting The Burrard Inlet Tunnel and Bridge Company.-Mr. Stevens.
Bill No. 7, respecting The Canadian Indemnity Company.-Mr. Allen.
Bill No. 8, respecting The Cosmos Cotton Company.-Mr. Spinney.
Bill No. 9, respecting Fraser Lumber Company, Limited, and Fraser Companies, Limited.-Mr. Elkin.
Bill No. 10, to enable the Western Power Company of Canada, Limited, to own and operate the Railway of the Western Canada Power Company, Limited.-Mr. Stacey.


Rt. Hon. Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: In reply
to the question addressed to me yesterday by the leader of the Opposition, it is my duty, but with great regret, to inform the

House that the health of Sir Thomas White has 'been seriously impaired by the enormous responsibilities and the severe, and unremitting 'labours -which have been imposed upon him in the performance of his duties since the outbreak of -war. No burdens of anything like the same magnitude have ever been imposed upon a Minister of Finance in Canada for a like period. Sir Thomas White's keen realization of duty impelled him to throw into the task his utmost strength .and: energy. His wide business experience and his great ability enabled him to render to Canada a service for which the whole country should be grateful. After my return to Ottawa about the middle of J anuary I became convinced that he required immediate and prolonged rest, and I strongly urged him to put aside his work for such a period as would bring about a thorough restoration of his health. He finally agreed to do so; and upon consulting an eminent physician he was informed of the imperative necessity that he should desist from all active work for a period of six months at least There is not the slightest doubt that Sir Thomas White would greatly desire to be relieved from his present responsibilities, but on the other hand he finds himself confronted with the duty of remaining at his post, if at all possible, until the conclusion of the war. His colleagues would gladly undertake to carry on the work of his department during the present session, in order that he may have the necessary rest; and the duties of Minister of Finance have been, during his absence, entrusted to the very capable hands of Mr. Maclean. I am not confident, however, that Sir Thomas White will find it consistent with his ideal of duty to remain absent during the session while still continuing as Minister of Finance. On the other hand, his colleagues naturally shrink from asking him to resume, at the risk of a permanent breakdown of his health, the crushing burdens which he has been sustaining during nearly four years of war. I am in correspondence with him and any further announcement will be delayed until after the Easter holidays.



ARGYLL, HOUSE EMPLOYEES.


Robert Laird Borden: The attention of Sir Edward Kemp, Minister of the Overseas Military Forces, has been directed to certain animadversions which, from time to time, have appeared in the press with regard to the officers and men who are
	,
employed at headquarters at Argyll House in London. Argyll House is the headquarters for some hundreds of thousands of men who are now engaged in France or in Great Britain in the military service of this Dominion. In a telegram received recently from Sir Edward Kemp he has asked me to make public the following statement, and I accordingly do so:
Of seventy-six officers and two hundred and nine other ranks employed at Argyll House fifty-five officers and one hundred and twenty-eight other ranks have seen service in the Field, the great majority of whom were evacuated owing to wounds. Sixty-four of the other ranks without overseas service are at present unfit for general service. On becoming fit they Will immediately be replaced by returnel casualties. May I direct attention to the fact that the officers in charge of this responsible work at Argyll House are men of high reputation. They are Canadian citizens whose names for the most part are household words in Canada. Generally they have abandoned occupations at great sacrifice to perform a service for their country. Heads of branches have seen service at the Front and they are continually pressing claims to be freed from onerous, difficult and exacting tasks with which they have to deal at headquarters in order that they may return to the Front.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: May I suggest that it would be advisable to have the
names of those men?


Robert Laird Borden: I will get them.


Sir SAM HUGHES:: I notice that the name " Argyll House " is employed. Does
that include all the service in and around the headquarters in London?
Sir ROBERT BOtRDEN: I really do not know. I will ascertain?


Samuel Hughes: I think it will be feund that it does not.



IMMIGRATION AND COLONIZATION.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Sir Robert Borden, Bill No.
11,	respecting the Department of Immigra tion and Colonization, was introduced and read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Sir Robert Borden, Bill No
12,	respecting the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-Establishment, was introduced and read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by asterisks).

Mr. GLASS:: 1.	Has the attention of the Government been drawn to the urgent need of more speedy

action on the part of Leave-of-Absence Boards in disposing of appeals of men who have had farm experience, and whose services will be required immediately for spring work, on the farms and for seeding?
2.	Has the Government taken into consideration the rrobable need of the appointment of additional Leave-of-Absence Boards with a view tc the more expeditious disposal of appeals by men required for farm work?


General MEWBURN:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1. .


DIRECTOR OP RUBRIC INFORMATION FOR CANADA.
Mr. DEVLIN:: 1.	Is there a Director of Public Information for Canada?
2.	If so, what is his name?
3.	What salary is he paid?
4.	What was his former occupation?
' 5. What Department of the Government has control of this office?
6.	How many persons are employed in the office by the Director of Public Information?
7.	What ai-e the names of each?
8.	What salary is each one receiving?
3.	What war the former occupation of each and their respective salaries?
10.	What is the nature of the work being clone ?
11.	What is the estimated cost of maintaining the oifice per month?


Mr. ROWELL:: 1.	Yes.
2.	M. E. Nicbols.
3.	85,000 per year.
4.	Newspaper editor.
5.	President of the Privy Council.
6.	Ten.
7.	8, and 9. Frank Yeigh, $300 per month, formerly lecturer and organizer $350 per month.
W. 8. LeSueur, $150 per month, formerly advertising manager, $200 per month.
Miss B. A. Macleod, $75 per month, formerly stenographer Imperial Munitions Board, $80 per month.
Miss W. Wilson, $100 per month, formerly journalist $100 per month.
Miss M. Currie, $65 per month, formerly stenographer Federal Press, $65 per month.
Miss M. J. Roe, $60 per month, recommended by Civil Service Commission.
Miss R. G. MacLeod, $60 per month, formerly .stenographer Militia Department, $56 per month.
'Charles Brooks, $25 per month, office boy, $20 per month.
Captain William Wallace, M.C., and Lieut. I. D. Johnson are also employed in the office of the Director of Public Information as editors of the Canadian Daily Record, but they are paid by the Militia Department, receiving the pay of their respective ranks. Neither Captain Wallace nor Lieut. Johnson has yet been discharged from the C.E.F., in which they were serving.
10.	The work carried on by the Director of Public Information is directed along the lines of giving the public the fullest possible information concerning the war and war problems, at home and abroad.
The Director of Public Information keeps in close touch with Government activities and with the work of the boards and commissions specially constituted to meet problems arising from the war. The facilities of his office are at the disposal of these various departments of government, boards, and commissions, to prepare, direct, or advise in publicity campaigns and are being utilized for that purpose.
The director will also keep in touch with the Department of Propaganda in Great Britain and with the Committee of Public Information in the United States, so as to provide the Canadian people with fuller information relating to the war and activities of the Allied Nations.
A special work undertaken by the Director of Public Information is the preparation of summaries of news and opinion of the British Empire and foreign countries, with special reference to problems arising from the war- This information will be presented in the form of a weekly review.
The Director of Public Information has also taken over the general supervision of the Canadian Daily Record, published for the use of the Canadian soldiers overseas.
Of the various activities of the Director of Public Information, particular mention may be made of the War Lecture Bureau organized early last December through which a large number of voluntary workers have been enlisted in the work of delivering patriotic speeches. The bureau is active in nearly every province in Canada and addresses have been delivered to approximately 490,000 people. It has co-operated in local campaigns for the Patriotic and Red Cross Funds and is being utilized in the campaigns for Farm Labour and Greater Production.
11.	Approximately $4,000 per month, of which nearly one-half is expended on the Canadian Daily Record published for the Canadian soldiers overseas.


EXPORTATION OF NEWSPRINT AND MECHANICAL WOOD PULP.
Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1 Has an Order in Council been passed providing that newsprint paper and mechanical

wood pulp are among the goods of which export is prohibited except under license issued by the Minister of Customs at the request of the War Trade Board?
2. If so, what is the object of said Order in Council?


Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1- Yes.
2. The object in passing the Order in Council was to assist in the control and supply of newsprint for domestic purposes.


IMPERIAL MUNITIONS BOARD.
*Mr. DEVLIN:: *1. During the months of October, November or December, 1917, did the staff of the Imperial Munitions Board do any work for the Government in connection with the copying of lists showing the names of soldiers' wives and soldiers' dependents?
2.	If so, who paid the various members of the staff of the Imperial Munitions Board for doing this work?
3.	For what purpose were these lists used?
4.	Did any member of the staff of the Militia Department arrange to have the work done?
5.	If so. what is his name?
6.	On whose instructions were the lists copied?


General MEWBURN:: 1.	There ,ie no record of any such work having been done for the Government.
2.	and 3. Answered by No. 1.
4, 5 and 6. There is no record, in the Militia Department of any such instructions, nor was there any payment made on account oif suoh expenditure.


UNOPPOSED MOTION FOR PAPERS.
Wilfrid Laurier: For a copy of all Orders in Council appointing members of the National Service Board, and all reports made individually or collectively by the members of the Board.


QUESTION PASSED AS MOTION FOR RETURN.
[Stage Direction]
Mr, ARCHAMBAULT:
Who were the officers of the Engineer Training Depot stationed at the St. Johns, Quebec, barracks during the months of October and December, 1917? Who were the officers of the Engineers Training Depot stationed at St. Johns, Quebec, barracks on the 17th of December, 1917? Where did these officers enlist and where did tlitse officers reside before their enlistment? Where were these officers residing at the time of their enlistment?

Mr. J. H. BURNHAM (W. Peterborough) moved:: That, in the opinion of this House, Parliament should provide that the Postmaster General shall have power to revise rural mail carriers' contracts not yet fully executed in order that the service may not suffer from conditions bearing unfairly on the said carriers arising

from sudden rise in prices due to unusual circumstances and unfairly affecting the rate of remuneration contracted for.
He said:	My object, in, bringing .this
motion before the House is that mail carriers, after .they have entered into certain obligations, sometimes find themselves, owing to circumstances over which they have no control and which they could not reasonably 'be expected to .have taken into consideration, placed in such a position that they have -a .moral right to appeal for a revision oif their contract, but the Postmaster General has, no1 power to revise the contract do any way. When he is apprised of these unusual circumstances, he (replies that he has no po wer 'to revise the contract, and the consequence is that there is no reconsideration. I, myself, know of oases where mail couriers are 'going behind daily, as a plain statement of their expenditures shows, and the result is that the country is really taking advantage ,of these men by holding them strictly to their ,contract. A great injustice is done these couriers' solely because the Postmaster General has not the power that other 'ministers of the Crown have, under different circumstances, of revising a contract or improving its conditions. The Postmaster General simply has to shut out all .consideration of the matter, and this works a very great hardship. The Government should not take undue advantage of any man, especially of men so necessary to the business' of the country as mail couriers, and since the desire of the House can only be that all the people shall 'be treated fairly, I fancy the House, if it will hut think of the matter for a moment, will 'be only too glad to empower the Postmaster General to revise these contracts so as to enable him to do. justice in every case where a ,grievance is clearly shown.


Hon. C. J. DOHERTY (Acting Postmaster General):: 
Charles Joseph Doherty: May I ask when that
beg-an?


Mr. E. PROULX (Prescott):: I support the resolution of the hon. member for West Peterborough (Mr. Burnham). When the rural mail delivery system was established

a few years ago, there was a fixed' price according to locality. In. certain localities the prices were too low; the department would not exceed a maximum price of $30 a mile. Since the increase in the cost of living and in the cost of feed fox horses and gasolene for motor vehicles, a large number of mail carriers have heen carrying the mail at a loss, or at any rate, at a very small wage. As the member for Maieon-neuve (Mr. Lemieux) said, the system has been' a great boon to the farmers, and that in itself is a reason why we should not expect the mail carriers to work at such low wages, or to carry out their contracts at a loss. The Government would be justified in granting an increase on a sliding scale until the contracts have expired, and without asking for renewals. The present contractors have done the work in the past at low prices and it would be Unfair to them \ to throw the service open to competition before the expiration of the contracts. I *would certainly support the Government should they give these carriers an increase to cover the remaining periods of their contracts.	*
Mr. J. W. EDWARDS (Frontenac); For several years past I have brought this matter to the attention of the various gentlemen who have occupied the position of Postmaster General. Especially after the inauguration of parcel post delivery I interviewed the Postmaster General and pointed out to him how unfair the system was working in respect of those engaged in rural mail delivery. I commend the hon. member for Peterborough for bringing this matter to the attention of the acting Postmaster General and of the House. He should be congratulated because of the unanimity of view, so far as we can judge Gom those who have already spoken, and on the fact that those who have spoken have admitted that there is such a thing ps the high cost of living for people who live in the country. One would judge from reading the press at times that what is called the high cost of living applies only to cities and towns and that in country districts it does not cost any more to live than it did in former days. This is a reason why the subject of the hon. gentleman's motion should be seriously considered by the Department. If we are to treat these servants of the public as others have been treated; if we are to treat these contractors for the carrying of mail in the country districts as other contractors have been treated, the Postmaster General should have power to revise the contracts. Contracts have been entered into in times past

for one year for the supplying of various articles to departments of the Government. On the holders of the contracts representing to the Government that the articles they were supplying were costing more than the contractors were paid for them, the period of the contract has in some cases been cut down from one year to six months. I believe that contracts to supply goods have heen made for a period of six months rather than for a period of one year as was formerly the case. Most if not all of our rural mail delivery contracts are for a period of four years, and hundreds of people throughout the country who in good faith entered into these contracts have been put to increased expenditure by reason of the inauguration of the parcel post system and their being obliged to provide an extra horse or a larger rig in order to convey the mail; and have also been deprived of the small revenue they formerly obtained by carrying these parcels now carried as _ mail. They have put up with it and hundreds of the men have been operating at a loss. But with that characteristic stick-to-it-iveness of men who live in the country districts, they have stuck to their contracts notwithstanding the fact that they have lost money. Not so those who have had contracts and who live in cities and *towns. When the pinch came they began to squeal and they came to Ottawa and squealed loudly enough to get their contracts changed and their remuneration increased. My hon. friend from Rouville (Mr. Lemieux)-he represents two or three constituencies, hut we will say Rouville- he was very fortunate in being elected to all of them-says that there is a saving clause in the contracts and that the Postmaster General has power to annul any contract by giving two or three month's notice. That is all right for the Government on the one side, 'but where does the other fellow getv off? What chance has the fellow who has taken a contract? The hon. member for Rouville says:	Let him
take his plea to the acting-Postmaster General either by way of petition or through a delegation. He says that no doubt the acting-Postmaster General is a fair-minded man and that he will annul the contract and enter into a new one. That is not a fair way of looking ,at it. People in the country districts are entitled to every dollar of money that is being spent on rural mail delivery. Let me emphasize that fact, Mr. Speaker. There are thousands, and tens of thousands, of people living in the country districts who cannot importune

the various Cabinet ministers tor public works, harbour improvements, post offices and one thing and another. About the only thing the Government can do is to give an effective and efficient mail service.
I repeat what I-have said on former occasions that this is not a question of whether there is a surplus or a deficit in the Post Office Department. If there is any department of the Government where there is a justification for having a deficit it is the Post Office Department because every cent of revenue comes out of the pockets of the people and it should go back to them in the form of an efficient service. The people of the country will find no fault with this or any other Government if there is a deficit in the Post Office Department so long as the Government gives the people in country districts an efficient and effective .service. I hope this matter will not be simply passed oveT as .something of little importance but that it will receive the attention that it' merits. I hope that not only will rural .mail carriers get more pay but that country postmasters land postmistresses will also he more fairly remunerated.
They are entitled to more pay than they get at the present time. The hon. member for Rouville says that the Government is safeguarded by competition, that if these routes are put up to tender there will always be lots of persons to tender for them. Of course, my hon. friend is speaking for that part of the country with which he is best acquainted-his own part of the country. That may be true in his part of the country but I want to assure him and you, Mr. Speaker, that while his statement may have applied, not only to his own part of the country but to the Dominion in general four or five years ago, itdoes not apply to-day to many parts of the province of Ontario as it did a few years ago. If, four or five years [DOT]ago, rural mail routes were put up to tender, many people would have tendered for those routes. It is not the case to-day. Rural Ontario has been depleted and there are not enough men to attend to the wants of the country or to work on the farms. There are not many people in rural Ontario to-day vieing with each other to get mail contracts. They have other work to do. I merely ask that this resolution of the hon. member for Peterborough- receive serious consideration and that action he taken with the view of doing justice to the rural mail carriers, because I maintain in all sincerity that they have not received just treatment in times past.


Mr. D. D. McKENZIE (Cape Breton North):: Mr. Speaker, I do not know that I can add anything to what has been said by hon. gentlemen who have spoken on the resolution introduced by the hon. member for Peterborough (Mr. Burnham) but I wish to refer to what has been said, particularly by the hon. member for Frontenac (Mr. Edwards), with respect to the necessity of giving due consideration to the questions involved in this resolution. It is quite true that it is a dangerous thing to interfere with or disturb contracts once they are entered into. It might well be urged that one who undertook a contract would not care to lessen his price if the prices of oats, carriages and other things went down instead of up. That argument could well be used and he would say: That is one of the fortunes of war; and if the prices had gone up I would have had to put up with it. But we have extraordinary conditions in Canada to-day- We have war conditions and we have a springing up in the prices of horses, the feed of horses, vehicles and all that is necessary to outfit mail carriers. Therefore, I submit here, Sir, that the ordinary rules of conduct iu dealing with contracts ought to he departed from to some extent and that justice ought to be done to the people who are immediately concerned. The hon. the acting-Postmaster General (Mr. Doherty) says that he is willing to seriously consider the question of cancelling contracts. Well, the situation is very much like that of a man who is in a government or other office and who says: I took this position when there were only my wife and myself, we got $500 a yeaT and we got along nicely on that Now I have a family of ten or twelve, the prices of the necessities of life have gone up and what I used to get is not sufficient to keep body and soul together and to enable us to get along an the way in which we ought to*. The minister would say: You can resign your office and go out; that is. the only remedy I have to offer yon. That is poor consolation to the man who has put his time and energy into the office with (which he has been connected for 'a score of years and who is now not fit to do any other kind off work. It is poor consolation for the mail contractor, who has, perhaps, bought three or four horses for $1,000, who has (bought a number Of carriages and who has acquired the means of operating the mail route for four years or more, to be told: You can forfeit your four horses and your carriages and resign. If you have lost money that is your luck, but

I would suggest fo,r ihe consideration of the Postmaster General if the remedy which he himself has suggested is not to be deemed the best one, namely, that he consider the advisability of offering a general percentage of increase based upon the changed conditions. In that respect there would be, at all events, an appearance of equality, and the Postmaster General would be saved' a great deal of trouble. The suggestion .that the contracts be cancelled is perhaps for the moment the best thing that can be done, but if it is to be dealt with in the manner of a revision, I would suggest for his consideration whether it would not be (better to offer a fixed percentage of increase, applying to contracts that have 'been taken within a given, date, such percentage of increase to correspond in a measurable degree with the increased cost of material and supplies.


Robert Laird Borden: Mr. Speaker, I entirely agree that there are great objections to the course proposed that such matters should be left within the discretion of the Postmaster General, or within the discretion of the Government. I appreciate the suggestion which has been made by the hon. member for Shelburne and Queens (Mr. Fielding). At the same time the Goverer ment naturally must take into consideration the position in which it wonldi be placed toy even that suggestion, (because probably it might toe called upon no.t to stop there tout to 'apply some percentage of increase to every contract that has been entered into toy the Government. Perhaps, now that the discussion has taken place, the hon. member who made the motion will be content to withdraw it in order that the subject may be considered by the Government. The discussion could be renewed in some other way at a later date if .thought desirable. I should like to add1, of course, that all of us have the greatest possible sympathy with those who have undertaken these contracts at a cost which, involves loss to them. None of us. would desire that. But on the other hand there are considerations touching the public interest which, as hon. members on both sides would agree, the Government ought to take strictly into account before any definite action is embarked upon.


John Hampden Burnham: In view of what the
Prime Minister has promised, Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to withdraw my motion.


SEPARATION ALLOWANCES FOR SOLDIERS' DEPENDENTS.
[Stage Direction]
That, in the opinion of this House, it should not be necessary for soldiers' dependents to show total disability in order to obtain aid or other forms of support from the Separation Allowance Branch, but that such aid should be apportioned according to support possible.
He said: The point at issue is simply this: Where the dependent of a soldier applies for separation allowance, that dependent must show that this soldier was her sole means of support, or, if there is a male relative at home, such as a husband or brother, that he is totally incapacitated and absolutely unable to furnish any portion of the means of support of the person applying for the grant or allowance. If such person was only affected to the extent of 5 per cent, then the soldier would not be the only or sole means of support. The consequence is that the support is in many cases of .such a meagre character that it is an imposition and unfairness to the soldier and his family, and not really intended- cannot be intended-by the people of this country or the members of this House as a justification for refusing some degree of assistance, if not the full measure of allowance. I will read you a certificate by Dr. Carmichael, of Peterborough, a very well-known physician, with reference to the case of Mrs. Hamlin. It illustrates the, point we are discussing so extremely well that I may be pardoned for bringing it to the attention of the House:
It. reference to the case of Mrs. Manila Hamlin, £54 Mrr.roe Ave., Peterborough, Ont., who Is receiving Separation Allowance on account of her son, 204,157 Pte. W. Hamlin, 3rd Division Ammunition Company, and is now cut off because her husband is not totally incapacitated, she has three sons at front, and three more children at home, not able to earn for themselves, going to school. She always depended on her sons to help keep home and children, as the father was not able to work steady It will take all he can earn to board and clothe himself, let alone keep his wife and family at home, and it will likely have them suffering befoie another winter is over when everything is going up in price. The husband has a ohronic bronchitis, some might say T. B. from his appearance and cough if he gets any cold. And her three hoys doing their bit for country she should not be in want or suffering whe.i her boys, if home, would keep her comfortable.
Yours truly,
D. M. Carmichael, M.D.
Now it is to be presumed in some cases, at any rate, if not in this, that the sons have since become married, and that their mother and younger brothers and sisters at home have positively no means of support except a portion of the assigned pay. The dependents have no separation allowance, and they are naturally stranded and in great
John Hampden Burnham: distress simply because the Disability Board of the Militia Department has no power to grant to them a portion of the separation allowance, but must grant all the separation allowance or none. "That is to say if the person who was the means of support cannot be described as totally ineffective, the partial disability cannot be considered at ail in giving these people the privilege of separation allowance. That is clearly a very serious matter. It i:s absolutely an evil, and it certainly has brought about, in many cases to my own knowledge, the greatest possible hardship. I do not think the Government itself will admit that there is any excuse whatever for such a state of affairs. It is doubtless a case which has been overlooked, and the sooner the injustice to these people is remedied, the better it will be not only for them but for ourselves.
Major-General MEWBURN:	My hon.
friend from Peterborough has raised a very large question that will require a great deal of careful and mature consideration. The separation allowance that is given to dependents of the soldiers enlisted in the Canadian Expeditionary Force is granted under clear and definite terms. It is given to the wives of officers, non-commissioned officers and men belonging to the Canadian Expeditionary Force, and some time ago was extended to widowed mothers whose sons were their sole and only support. Doubtless there are many cases of hardship existing throughout the country of mothers, and in many cases I might say, sisters who were not dependent on the men when they went to the front, but in regard to whom circumstances have since .arisen which cause these unfortunate women to think they should receive the separation allowance to which they are not legally entitled under the provisions of the Act. If you open, up and go into the question of apportioning the separation .allowance according to the need or suffering of the particular individual, it means raising a problem requiring an enormous staff to deal with and throwing an immense additional responsibility on the department in the investigation of every similar case. Tihe instance to which my hon. friend has referred no doubt has been met, or if not it should be met, by the magnificent efforts and work of the Canadian Patriotic Fund. The officers of that fund are working in the very closest co-operation with the Separation Allowance Branch, by whom all cases are investigated. Where no provision exists for the payment of separation allowance to the dependent of a soldier over-

seas, and when circumstances warrant, the Patriotic Fund intervenes and takes care of the needy and distressed. If it is the pleasure of the House that the Separation Allowance should be extended to such dependents, such action, as I have already said, will demand very careful and mature [DOT] consideration. Not only will it necessitate an enormously increased staff but it will mean practically duplicating the work of the Patriotic Fund. The Disability Board investigates, checks, and reports on all these cases; and I think if my hon. friend will withdraw his motion until such time as it shall have received more careful consideration by the department and the Government, the need will be met much more quickly than by having a prolonged discussion in the House.


Mr. NICKLE:: It does not seem to me that this matter can be set aside as easily, or that it is as simple as the minister thinks. Prior to the inauguration of the Military Service Act, when only those were bound to serve who were willing to do so, it was easy for the man who felt that it was incumbent upon him to maintain his parents to remain at home and look after the charge that he had so many years per-rormed. The hon. member for Peterborough m proposing this Resolution did not perhaps go as fully into the facts as he might have done, and therefore it may not be amiss that I should take a minute or two in explaining the principles upon which the separation allowance was granted.


Hon. Mr. MURPHY:: Hear, hear.


William Folger Nickle: The separation allowance falls into two classes: It is the amount that is granted to those who are legally dependent upon the man; and it is also granted to those who, although not legally dependent have moral claim upon the man who has gone, or who is to go, to the front. In the case of the wife who is legally dependent upon the man no question arises as to her financial status or position in society. She may have an income of $20,000, or may be in receipt of only $5 a week, but separation allowance goes to her as a right. If a wife has a legal claim she gets, according to the rank of the man, such money as the Government has seen fit to apportion to the various ranks. For nstance, the wife of a private gets $25 a month, whereas the colonel's wife draws $60 a month. That will give you some idea of the spread, or the scope, that exists between the private and the colonel.
Take, however, the case of a man who has gone or who has to go, who does not go

voluntarily. He may .have occupied a position in society from which he may have drawn a revenue of 31,000, $2,000 or $3,000 a year. Suddenly he is told that all this counts for nothing. He is told: Your service to the State is measured by your ability to be a soldier and the work to which you have hitherto given your attention must be laid aside, the income which has been adequate for the maintenance of your family must be foregone and you must go overseas. At once this situation confronts the dependent mother or sister. Five minutes before this man became a soldier he had an income of say $1,500 a year. Five minutes after he becomes a soldier, his income is $1.10 a day plus such an amount as the (Patriotic Fund cares to give. The allowances from the Patriotic Fund are given on well-defined lines : The amount to be given is settled according to the number in the family. Therefore, the amount cannot be increased unless the Patriotic Fund regulations are varied. Three cases in my own riding have recently come to my attention. One was the case of a sister who, before her brother went overseas, had a reasonable living allowance of $1, 200 to $1,500 a year. Suddenly .she finds her income reduced to the income that a private's wife would have, with the exception that there is no separation, allowance. In other words, her brother may make a grant to her of not exceeding $20 a month to maintain a home that has hitherto been kept in the style of about $1,000 a year. Another is the case of a man connected with a large educational institution who had two brothers. One went to the front and I think was killed. The second I think went voluntarily. The third is in this educational institution. He is an unmarried man earning only a small salary, and although the mother has made application for separation allowance, a ruling has been given that as the boy who has been taken, is not the sole support of the mother and as there .might be a possibility if the man in the educational institution directed his energies along another line, he might earn more-he is going to the university and following his studies while at the same time he earns money as an instructor-no separation allowance can be made. 'The third case is that o.f a widow. One son is going-and this is the case of a man going	voluntarilyas a surgeon, and he is earning a good income. The other brother, a young imam, is only starting as a medical practitioner. He wrote tne a .short time .ago he was not able 5
to earn enough to .support himself, .much less to assist in the maintenance of his mother, and it has been ruled that, because the boy who remains at home may be of assistance to the mother, no separation allowance .should be granted. As a representative of a constituency that bas sent many men to the front, and that under the Military Service Act will send1 many more, I desire to advocate the rights as I see them of those who remain behind when the State demands the services of those on whom they have been dependent. I do not intend to branch out into .a discussion in regard to the conscription of wealth, but when the State enlists the service of a man compulsorily it is the duty of the State to supplement, at least to the extent of the separation allowance, according to the rank the man holds, the income of those whose income has been depleted by the State saying to the man: " Your services .are now required'; no matter whether you wish it or not, you must go." I believe the general feeling throughout this country is that the dependents, of 'those who have been, or are to be, conscripted are entitled to the most generous consideration of this. House and of the country. This is not a question of an Act; it is a question of a regulation. It was a regulation passed by the Militia Department last year, and it established the principle that no separation .allowance shall be granted when the boy taken is not the sole support. If .1 imay read between, the lines 0'f the remarks made by the minister, I think he would be willing, if the consensus of opinion of this House was in that direction, that the regulation should have the careful consideration of his officers, and I trust .his sympathetic consideration as well.
Sir .SAM HUGHES: Has the minister taken into consideration, or does he understand the regulations in force in the United States in regard to the .support given to the relatives of those who have gome to the front?
'Major-General MEWBURN: In the United
States the authorities go into the question of insuring the man.


Samuel Hughes: And they also provide him with a revenue equal to what he had before going to the war.
Mr.. T. M. TWEEDIE: This question of separation allowance is one in which every person is interested. I concur very heartily in the expression cf opinion which has been given m regard to this particular class of cases which is the subject matter of tbe re-



solution before the House. I 'have always been of the opinion that the separation allowance has not been established on the basis of justice and equity. In the early days of the war we found that in Canada there enlisted a great many men who left large families behind them, and there also enlisted many men who left behind them no children at all. The result of the regulation in regard to separation allowance was that if a man went to the front and left behind him a wife with no children, that the wife received $20 a month-the amount has since been increased to $25- the same separation allowance as [DOT]was received by the wife of a man who left behind him five or six children. I have known of cases where a man has left behind him nine or ten children, and where his wife has had to support that family on the same separation allowance as is given to a soldier's wife with no children at all. I trust before the close of this ses*sion of Parliament, soma steps will be taken to readjust this matter; that we shall follow to a large extent the system in force in England, and that there will be a sufficient sum granted to the dependent wife and an additional allowance made for each child while the man is at the front. It is only reasonable to ask this of the House of Commons and of the country. It is only doing justice to those wives and children who have been left behind, because I cannot, by any process of reasoning, understand how a family of six can be supported on the same sum of money as a family of two, with only the wife at home.
The Minister of Militia and Defence raised some question in regard to the large amount of work involved if we undertook to adjust this fund so as to render assistance in cases where there was only partial disability- This does not necessarily involve any excess of work. The country in all these cases can afford to be generous, and when we find there is a family left behind and that there is perhaps an aged father, or an infirm brother, or an infirm sister, or an infirm child, the moment we find that physical disability, if it can be established to the satisfaction of the department that the man who enlisted, and through whom the support was claimed, had contributed an amount of at least. $20 or $25 per month to the support of that family, then this country should give a corresponding amount to the support of the woman and children who are left at home. I trust that this matter will be taken up

and thoroughly discussed, and that this House will see its way clear to readjust the system on which the separation allowance is paid so that there will be a scale graduating from the wife alone to the wife with five or six children.


John Hampden Burnham: In deference to the request of.the minister, I beg leave to withdraw the motion.
Motion withdrawn.


MONTREAL-GASPE STEAMER SERVICE.
Rodolphe Lemieux: For a copy of all letters, telegrams and other papers concerning the steamer service between Montreal, Quebec and the various harbours of Gnrpd.
He said: I shall not delay the House at any length, but as this matter is of urgency I wish at once to direct the attention of my hen. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce, and of my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, to the serious situation which confronts the peninsula of Gaspe and the group of islands in the gulf of the St. Lawrence known as the Magdalen islands- The county of Gaspe is divided into two well-known parts-the mainland, on the Baie des Chaleurs, and the Magdalen islands, in the gulf of the St. Lawrence. Up till last fall the steamship service between the various harbours on the coast of Gaspe and the large centres of population such as Montreal and Quebec was performed by two steamers, the Lady of Gaspe and the Percesien. The Lady of Gasp6 has been sold by her owners, at a very fair price I am told, and the Percesien, I am sorry to say, foundered in a storm not very long ago on her way to Liverpool. The large population along the coast of Gaspe, as well as the population of the Magdalen islands, depend for a livelihood chiefly on two industries, agriculture and fisheries. There are several harbours between Matane, which is the nearest railway centre, and Gaspe basin. The other section of the peninsula from Gaspe basin to Matapedia is connected with the Dominion by a railway system. I am speaking now chiefly of that section of the peninsula which is on the river St. Lawrence and also of the Magdalen islands. The people there have no communication except by steamer, and I am sorry to say that so far they have been unable to secure a steamer service for next summer. The disappearance of the steamer service between Quebec, Montreal, and the various harbours on the coast of Gaspe has created this situation; the fish, instead of being

shipped inland to Quebec, Montreal, and the Canadian West, is now being gathered up by Americans. I have specific information on this subject, and hear on reliable authority that some Gloucester firms in the State of Maine have sent agents this winter to the coast of Gasl>6 to gather up the fish which could not be shipped last summer through lack of shipping facilities. So much for the mainland.	[DOT]


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Rodolphe Lemieux: For ia copy of all telegrams, letters, petitions and all other correspondence and documents, concerning the service of the steamer Amelia between Pictou and Magdalen islands.
He said: This other motion deals with the steamer service between Magdalen islands and the mainland. The situation in that section of the country as regards shipping facilities is just about the same as it was some years ago when I was in the Government, representing the county of Gaape. I then induced one of the large ship-builders of Nova Scotia to build a steamer adapted to the peculiar service between Pictou, Prince Edward Island and the Magdalen Islands. The Lady Sybil was built, but when war was declared she was sold by the owner to the Admiralty, at a very high figure, if I mistake not. The department then gave the contract to the Magdalen Islands Steamship Company which owned the steamer Amelia. I need not weary the House with the many complaints which have come to the Minister of Trade and Commerce and myself with regard to the very poor service given by the Amelia. I quite understand that it is very difficult under present circumstances to get ships, but it does seem to me that the people of the Magdalen islands, isolated as they are for several months of the year, should be given special attention. While I am on this subject, let me tender my hearty thanks to the new Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Ballantyne) for what he did last fall, when navigation was closed between the Magdalen islands and the mainland. The steamer Amelia, as I have said, was very inferior, was unable to carry the freight that offered and was unfit to carry passengers. I appealed to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to send the Government icebreaker, the Stanley, to the Magdalen islands, and the hon. gentleman was kind enough to consent to send the Stanley, not 5i
only once but twice, much to the relief of the very thrifty population which has found its abode there. There are on these islands nearly six thousand people, earning their living chiefly by fishing, and also by agriculture. Perhaps I might give to the House an account which appeared in the Toronto Globe of February 6th of the arrival of the steamer Stanley, and the feeling of satisfaction the people of the Magdalen islands had on seeing her breaking her way through the ice and bringing them the necessaries of life for the winter season. The despatch reads:
Charlottetown, P.E.I., Feb. 6.-H. H. Acorn ot Souris, agent there for the Magdalen Islands Steamship Company, has arrived here on return from the islands. He went down there in the Dominion Government steamer Stanley, sent by the Government with a cargo of foodstuffs from Pictou and Souris. She reached1 there on Saturday last, after battling two days and nights with solid, heavy field ice from one to three feet thick, for a distance of forty miles. The ice was encountered after leaving- East Point, -and extended in an unbroken field, without a lead or a crack as far as the eye could see. It was so heavy in places that the steamer could not go more than half her length without bucking, while twice she stuck so hard that the crew were obliged to use slice bars for more than an hour to release her, and on Friday afternoon she covered only six miles in three hours.
Fully five hundred people gathered at the breakwater at Amherst Island to greet the Stanley with musing cheers and see for the first time an ice-breaker in action.
The cargo was discharged- on Saturday night during a snowstorm, with the temperature eighteen -below zero, and on Sunday morning tlie steamer sailed for North Sydney, arriving there Monday morning.
Kerosene and Gasoline Lacking.
Mr. Acorn reports that the islands are now well supplied with food and fuel, but there is a great shortage of kerosene oil. Many families are now without lights in their homes, except for cases of sickness, whilst none will be able to use more than one light durnig the winter.
There is practically no gasoline on the islands, and the fishermen will be greatly hampered in iheir spring work; in fact, no fishing can -be attempted to any extent until a stock of gaso'ine arrives. There are now 100 drums of gasoline at Pictou and: 64 at Souris awaiting shipment, but these could not be carried or. the Stanley without spoiling the flour, meat, etc., which, made up most of her cargo. The people are also in need of a large quantity of stoi k for repairing their boats and fishing gear. This stock is till held over at Souris.
The people are -warm in their praise of the Marine Department and- Captain Rowe in coming to their relief, and -hope to secure the Stanley for a trip in early spring.
This morning I received- the following message, which I believe was also sent to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries:


A. J. PAINOHATJD,
[Stage Direction]
Secretary Treasurer of the County Council Magdalen Islands.
This telegram, and the report which I have read from the Toronto Globe of 6th February, speak for themselves. I suggest that the Ministers of Trade and Commerce and Marine and Fisheries consider the situation which confronts the mainland on the northern coast of Gaspe and the Magdalen islands. In view of the high cost of bacon, pork and other kinds of meat, fish is becoming more 'and more valuable and is entering more largely into the diet of the consumers. Why should we let the Americans gather all the fish from the Magdalen islands and from the northern coast and thus prevent our own city people from getting it? As no steamers can be found-I quite .understand the reasons why-I suggest that the two departments arrange that the steamer Princess, for instance, be made available for the people on the river St. Lawrence and that the steamer Stanley be
'Mr. Demieux.l
put on the route between Magdalen islands, Prince Ediward island and Pictou during next .season. This request is a reasonable one, because the people of the Magdalen islands are absolutely isolated during several months of the year. I hope that the Minister of Marine and Fisheries will be as generous in this case as he was at the beginning of last winter, when he agreed to the request which I made on that occasion.
Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: Mr. Speaker,
three services under the Department of Trade and Commerce which have been for many years subsidized, are of nearly equal importance, and all very necessary. These three have, within my experience, received as large a share of attention and have been as troublesome and difficult as any three in the whole range of our local services. In order of importance, I think the Magdalen islands .service comes first, because the Magdalen islands have no rail communication with the outside world. The next one, I would say; is the north shore. The north shore is sparsely inhabited, but the people of that district are our citizens, and by virtue of the very sparseness of habitation and the extent to which the population is scattered along the coast, have special claims for 'being looked after by the Dominion 'Government in the way of .steamship communication. The other is the iGaspe shore, from Gaspe along the coast, about which my toon, friend has been speaking. That, however, has railway communication on two ends. At Gaspe there is rail connection with the Government railways; at Matane there is rail communication with the rest of .Canada. The important stretch there which has no available service except by water is that portion of the coast between Gaspe and Matane. With reference to the IMagda-len Islands service, my hon. friend sees as well as I do the extreme difficulty of getting any vessels at all, let alone thoroughly suitable vessels for that service. The same holds good with reference to the north shore, and the stretch of country between Gaspe and. Matane, or the old service between Gaspe and the cities of Montreal and Quebec. The two vessels which last year carried on the Gaspe service have gone out of the service, and in spite of every effort put forth toy the department to obtain one, no suitable vessel is in sight. It is possible that a vessel may be obtained; everything possible is being done to obtain one. What I do think should be provided for in some way is the stretch

of the coast between Gaspe and Matane. That ait least would be a relief, if it is impossible to get service on the old route between Gaspe and Quebec.
With reference to the Magdalen Islands service, the only really useful vessel that has ever been on; that service went away early in -the war. I think it was: The only vessel which would be got last year for that service was the Amelia. The Amelia was a serviceable vessel, up to her powers and capabilities, but she did not suit the Magdalen Islands people. S'be was not the best vessel for that trade, but she was absolutely the only one which was available. She was put on and kept on, and performed that service as well as she possibly could, with ,a great deal of dissatisfaction, some of which .was well founded and perhaps, as is usual, some of which, upon investigation, was found not to be so well founded.


Samuel Hughes: Are these vessels
fitted, with cold storage?


George Green Foster: No. Then, in
reference to the north shore service; that service has had a checkered career ever since I have known anything about it. Probably the best service we had was the year before last and part of last year when the Canada Steamship Company performed the service at a very largely increased subsidy. I -think they performed the service to the satisf action of the people along that coast. But the Canada Steamship Company has gone out of the service. They have no vessels which they can .give uh, and at the present time the department is making the beet search it can in order to provide a vessel for the north shore service. That briefly describes the situation in reference to these three. My horn, friend and colleague the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Bal-lantyne) has kept well up to the traditions of his department. The. Department of Trade and Commerce, which subsidized the summer service, always collaborated with the Department of Marine and Fisheries for two or three trips early in the autumn or winter and early in the spring when the ordinary subsidized vessel, found it impossible, on account of ice and weather conditions, to make the trip. That is not a new thing. We have always collaborated, .and I am quite sure that we will collaborate during the present year. Whether or not my hon. friend will take the Stanley and put her permanently on that service or whether the Princess can he spared from the service of the Deparment of Marine and Fisheries, suitable or unsuitable as
she may be, I do not know. That is a .matter that is being discussed .by the two departments in order to, reach a conclusion as to what can be dome. But I cannot say anything more to my hon, friend than I have already said, that everything possible will be done to provide some sort of a service. With reference to the north shore service, the people will not be allowed! to- .starve or to, suffer for actual necessities. We will preserve them from that without any doubt, and if we can give them a reasonably good service for their products, as well as for necessities in the matter of living, we shall do it. The same applies to the Magdalen service .and in a modified degree to the Gaspe service. We shall not even be kept from, using the extraordinary powers which the Government has at this time if we can find suitable vessels to get possession of and with which to perform this service. If my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries can come forward with some of his vessels and help out now or in the early spring, and if his department collaborates with us along the north shore, it will lead to a happier result than would be achieved without that co-operation.


Mr. JOSEPH READ (Prince, P.E.I.):: What does the Government intend to do with the Northumberland?


George Green Foster: I cannot say that. That vessel does not belong to my department, nor, I think, does it belong to the Department of Marine and Fisheries. I am not sure whether it belongs to the Government or not.


Rodolphe Lemieux: To the Department of Railways and Canals.


Joseph Read: Mr. Speaker, this is one of the most important questions that can come before the Parliament of Canada. Of course everybody knows the great difficulty there is in securing tonnage but at the same time if we are going to increase food production it is essential that proper transportation facilities should be obtained. I asked the right hon. the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster) what they were going to do with the Northumberland. The Northumberland is a steamer that has. been plying between Summerside and Point du Chene in connection with the Intercolonial railway service. That service, ,as my hon. friend knows, will probably be suspended this coming season because the new car ferry system has been inaugurated between Prince Edward Island and the mainland and the long deferred implementation of the promise of union between the prov-

inee of Prince Edward Island and the Dominion.


Mir. SPEAKER:: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member inasmuch as he is making his first speech in the House, but I must direct his attention to the fact that the motion 'before the House is for papers in connection with the steamship service between Montreal, Quebec, and the various harbours of GaspA


Mr. BUREAU:: I understood the hon.
member for Maisonneuve (Mr. Lemieux) to say that he was discussing both resolutions, No. 14 and No. 16, at the same time.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Order. The discussion coiuild not properly include the terms of union between Prince Edward Island and the rest of the Dominion in any case.


Joseph Read: I have no intention of discussing the question of 'Confederation. I was simiply leading uip to tlhe question of the transportation difficulties as between the port of Montreal and the Maritime Provinces, and I was going to point out to the minister that some boat probably could be secured that might be used between Montreal, the Magdalen islands and possibly the north shore. I simply wanted to know what was going to toe done with the steamer NorthuHifberland. And it occurred to me that if they were going to take her off the Prince Edward Island route between Charlottetown and Pietou, or S-ummerside and Point du Ghene, she might be available.
Hon, C. C. BALLANTYNE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries): Mr. Speaker, I am very much obliged, indeed, and I appreciate to the fullest extent the kind words of the hon. member for Maisonneuve (Mr. Lemieux) (with regard to the action of my department in sending the steamer Stanley to the Magdalen islands. I wish to assure my hon. friend that we were only doing our duty and nothing more. I am grateful to him for (bringing so important a matter so promptly to my attention as he did at the time. I have not ias yet received the telegram that my hon. friend read to the House a moment ago, tout no doubt it is at my office. I cannot at the moment state whether or not it will be possible to send the Stanley to the Magdalen islands for another trip, but I wish to assure my hon. friend that I shall take the matter up the first thing tomorrow morning, and if it is at all possible to send the Stanley to the Magdalen islands again that will toe done with the very greatest of pleasure.	*


Rodolphe Lemieux: Hear, hear.
[Mr. Head 1


Mr. BALLANTYNE:: 
Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I call to the attention of the House, that if ' the mover of the resolution exercises his right to close the debate, it will not be competent for any. other hon. member to speak.
Mr. HENRY E. LAVIGUEUR (Quebec County): Mr. Speaker, I have heard the hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce, and also the Minister of Marine, state that everything would be done to provide for a freight steamer service for the south and north shores of the St. Lawrence. Some weeks ago resolutions were passed by the Quebec Board of Trade and the City Council of Quebec requesting the Goverqment to provide for a service for the north shore and for Seven islands. It is of my personal knowledge that no service at all has been given on the north shore to Seven islands although there are large industries -there which have had to- close down, and some interested people from (Seven islands are now on their way to Quebec to organize a delegation of the Quebec Board of Trade and City Council to wait upon the Government to ask if a reasonable service can be given- Thousands of pounds of fish which were all ready to ship to Montreal and Quebec last fall were left over as there was no transportation. I am pleased to know that the matter will have the serious consideration of the Government in order that these deserving people may have proper facilities to carry on their industry.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Rodolphe Lemieux: For a copy of all letters, telegrams and other documents exchanged between Mr. Henry Tucker, K.C., and the Right Hon. Sir Robert
L.	Borden, K.C.M.G., P.C., the Department of Militia, the officers of the Patriotic Fund, concerning the claim of Mrs. Wineasi Zwingle.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I am glad to see my I1 on. friend, the Minister of Militia and Defence (Major-General Mewburn) in his seat, because although the name of the Prime Minister is mentioned in the motion

x wish- specially to appeal to the Minister of Militia and Defence. I do not intend to be critical as to the administration of the separation allowances, but I wish to get from my hon. friend some explanation which might serve not only in this but in similar cases. My object in bringing this matter before the House is because I believe the case has been exhausted +.hrough correspondence between the hardheaded Scotch Presbyterian lawyer who acted for this unfortunate woman and the various departments of the Government. It is at the request of Mr. Henry Tucker, K.C., of Montreal, a lawyer of very high standing at the Bar, that I bring this matter up. The name of. the soldier whose wife, according to Mr. Tucker, has not been fairly treated by the Patriotic Fund is Wineas Zwingle. He joined, in the early stage of the war, tlhe 150th 'Battalion', and he is on the firing line at the present time. He left behind him a wife and four children, but previous to leaving, according to my information, he made provision for hie Wife and family: the assigned pay $20, next, the separation allowance, $20, and $24 per month was allotted by the Patriotic Fund, making a total payment of $04 per month for the wife and four little children'. This soldier also left hie wife in possession of a small candy store in Montreal. During the month of February, 1917 the assigned pay of Zwingle and the separation allowance were sent, I do not know under what regulation, to the Patriotic Fund by the Department of Militia. The Minister of Militia stated a moment ago, that both the department and the Patriotic Fund were working in close co-operation. From March 1 to the middle of August, 1917, Mrs. Zwingle received $242.75, but from the latter month until December 8, 1917, she did not receive a red cent. Remember that this woman is absolutely penniless-, with tihe exception of the candy store, and has- dependent upon her four children, the eldest of whom is only 12 yeans old. In October, 1917, Mrs. Zwingle saw her lawyer, Mr. Tucker, K.C., and 'at that time, as alleged by Mr. Tucker, she was positively starving. He inquired from the Patriotic Fund, first wih-y they out the allowance from $24 to $10 per month, and second why the assigned pay and the separation allowance had been handed over to that organization for administration. The answer Mr. Tucker received from the Patriotic Fund, and I am1 .simply quoting from' the voluminous dossier which has been handed to ime by that gentleman-was to the following effect:	"This woman is
keeping what is known in common parlance as a ' blind pig ' and you had better see Recorder Semple of Montreal." Mr. Tucker, who is a very warm-hearted Scotchman, saw the woman was starving and freezing- and it is not necessary to- remind any hon. gentleman of the severity of tihe weather during the winter which has just closed- and he went to interview Recorder Semple whose statements were most favourable to Mrs. Zwingle. The recorder said he had received the complaint referred to about Mrs. Zwingle, hut had investigated it and found it to be baseless. Later on, acting on the advice of her lawyer and at the suggestion of the Patriotic Fund, Mrs. Zwingle sold her candy store for a certain sum. Remember, Mr. Speaker, I am not passing judgment on the Patriotic Fund organization. 1 am myself one of the incorporators of the fund, and one of its members, and I do not wish to pass judgment upon those who compose the organization. I know what devotion is being displayed, and what excellent work is being performed by the members of the Patriotic Fund all over the country; but sometimes, owing to misinformation or otherwise, persecution, may result which is absolutely unwarranted. In November, 1917, according to Mr- Tucker, the Department of Militia and Defence having been stirred up by the many letters written by him, sent Mrs. Zwingle a blank declaration to fill in and swear to, which declaration had to be countersigned by some officer of the Patriotic Fund. The declaration was for the purpose of determining how Mrs. Zwingle received her separation allowance and assigned pay. For one reason or another the Patriotic Fund-and I repeat that I am not criticising the organization because I am not personally aware of these facts, I am merely repeating what I was told by a very reliable counsel -refused, or rather, one of its officers refused, to countersign the blank declaration, and hence Mrs. Zwingle was once more deprived of both her separation allowance and assigned pay. In November, 1917, Mr. Tucker again complained to the department and obtained an order that the checks be paid direct to Mrs. Zwingle, but in the meantime she had been absolutely starving and freezing. On the 12th December, 1917, relief came in the form of cheques for two months from the department at Ottawa. On the 24th December, 1917, there was made against this unfortunate woman, who was evidently born under an evil star, another very serious charge, which I need not repeat, but which, according to the documents I hav* before me, absolutely

unfounded. Following this, the Militia Department order that her cheques for the assigned pay and separation allowance be paid direct to her was cancelled, and it was determined once -more that the payments should he made through the Patriotic Fund *at Montreal. What I wish to represent to the Minister of Militia-and this unquestionably is the high court of the land where all grievances can be ventilated-is that Mrs. Zwingle's husband is at the front, and she complains that she has been ill-treated, persecuted and slandered.
She claims that her husband's assigned pay and her separation allowance are her absolute property, and that the department has no control oveir thiemi. As regards the Patriotic Fund allowance, I quite agree *that according to the Act passed in 1914, the Patriotic Fund has a discretion in the matter, although the discretion should be used wisely and fairly. But as regards the assigned pay and the separation allowance, I would like to have a statement from the Minister of Militia if the department can direct the payment to he made through the Patriotic. Fund or through any other organization, or if she is not, as a matter of right, entitled' to have those moneys paid to her direct. I have brought the matter before the House after a long correspondence exchanged between Mr. Tucker, K. C., the Patriotic Fund, the /Department of Militia and Defence, and my right hon. friend the Prime Minister. 'It is a grievance, made perhaps more serious by the fact that this woman states positively that she has been persecuted, that she has been slandered, even after the allegations made against her were declared to be without foundation. I hope my hon. friend will look into this matter in the department and see that Mrs. Zwingle receives her assigned pay and her separation allowance without any /further delay.
Major-General MEWBURN: This matter has not come before me personally in the Separation Allowance Branch, and I have no desire to shield or to make excuses for any mistakes that may have occurred. Since I>
have had the honour o'f taking charge of the Department of Militia and Defence, the Separation Allowance Branch has caused us more trouble and anxiety than probably any other branch in the department. This branch deals with some 300,000 accounts, and mistakes have been made. 'Since I took charge of the department, I ha/ve endeavoured to re-organize that branch and have tried to get it down

to a proper 'business basis. I think I can say I am succeeding in that. I may go further and say that it will still be some months before it is running smoothly.
I will investigate this particular case thoroughly and find out why this woman has been treated in the way my Ihon. friend states, which statement I have no doubt is correct. I cannot understand why the money was paid over to the Patriotic Fund. There have been cases where money has been paid over to the Patriotic Fund on account of some arrangement between the Patriotic Fund and the beneficiary. The Patriotic Fund has a .committee which has made many investigations throughout the various cities of Canada. There have been cases where people have been drawing separation allowances to which they were neither legally nor morally entitled, and we have had to call upon the Patriotic Fund to make investigations. The declaration of which my hon. friend has spoken is the legal declaration which every person claiming separation allowance has to swear before a commissioner or a notary public. It is simply to get the evidence in the department so that we can have the account straightened out. If any injustice or wrong has been done to any person by an official of my department, he will cease to be employed in my department. I will make it my duty to investigate the matter fully and, if any wrong has been done, to rectify it.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I am perfectly satisfied with the answer given 'by the minister. I am willing to let him have the dossier in nly possession. It would then perhaps not. be necessary for him to go through all the departments of the Government because many letters have been addressed to different departments.
Major-General MEWBURN:	I shall be
glad to have the papers.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I am satisfied that there has been no ill-will on the part of the department, and the declaration made by the minister that the assigned pay and separation allowance should go direct to the dependents is quite satisfactory. If that is done, there will be no more grievance.
Major-General MEWBURN:	If she is
the Lawful wife o.f the soldier.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Certainly she is. There is an error in the name on the Order Paper. It is not Mrs. Antoina Zwingle, it is Mrs. Wineas Zwingle.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. CHARLES G. POWER (Quebec South): I desire to draw the attention of the Government to an article which appeared in the Ottawa Evening Journal, and to ask for some information from the Minister of Militia.
Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Ie this not a matter
about which the hon. member could procure information in the ordinary course by placing a question on the Order Paper?


Mr. POWER:: I rather douibt it. It is
a matter oif considerable urgency.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I must say to the House at this early stage in the session, that the asking otf questions on the Orders of the Day being called must be used most sparingly and only in cases of peculiar urgency. Hon. gentlemen have the privilege of having questions answered by placing them upon the Order Paper.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: In this case, it is a question of peculiar urgency, because it refers to the return oif soldiers from 'the front, and I understand that within the next month or so some 15,000 or 20,000 'soldiers will return from England to Canada. In. the Ottawa Evening Journal there is a despatch from Montreal, dated March 19, which gives the statement of a certain sergeant who returned on a boat which recently arrived on this side:
On' our boat they had 103 third cabin berths empty, absolutely empty, while wounded men and furlough men of the first contingent were confined below. They might at least have given these vacant berths to the cripples in the party. There was plenty of -room on the boat, but the sleeping accommodation was disgraceful. For men who have seen active service for three and a halt years to be kept under deck like that by officers who have never seen the front is a trifle hard to put up with, said the sergeant. You will hear more of it.
I simply desire to ask the Government if it is their intention to take immediate steps to remedy this evil if it exists.	[DOT]
Major-General MEWBURN:	This is the
first intimation I have had of the article which my hon. friend has read. As regards returned soldiers coming home on transports, the berthing and other arrangements are made entirely overseas, and we, on this side, cannot claim responsibility for such arrangements. Some three or four weeks ago an officer was sent overseas from Canada to take up with the overseas authorities proper berthing accommodation for the
troops coming back. The article referred to is evidently an anonymous one. It does not mention' the sergeant's name. If there are any complaints to be made so far as my department is- concerned, those complaints should foe made in the regular way, and my hon. friend can rest assured they will be thoroughly investigated.
If in the administration of the department I had to stop and pay attention to anomy-mous letters and anomymous correspondence in the newspapers, no work would ever be accomplished. There is already going on an investigation regarding transports, and a very minute investigation of another subject. As far as this particular article is concerned, I shall be very glad if my hon. friend would have the sergeant he refers to send in his complaint in writing to be investigated.


THE 'DEPUTY SPEAKER.
Robert Laird Borden: The thirteenth rule of the House provides that a Chairman of Committees of the House shall be elected at the commencement of every Parliament as soon as an Address has been agreed to in answer to His Excellency's speech, and the second paragraph of that rule provides that the member elected to serve as Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Committees shall be required to possess a full and practical knowledge of the language which is not that of the Speaker for the the time being. Now your -language, Mr. Speaker, is English, although occasionally you make successful excursions into the French language. Unfortunately, we are not blessed on this side of the House with a very large number of gentlemen who fulfil the qualifications required by the second paragraph of the rule which I have just quoted. The junior member for Ottawa (Mr. Chabot) does undoubtedly possess those qualifications, but he finds himself unable to undertake the duties. Possibly, there are one or two other members on this side of the House who might be considered as possessing the knowledge alluded to. However, it has always been the custom in this House that when the Chair is filled by a Speaker of British descent, the Deputy Speaker shall he one who traces his origin to the other great pioneer race in this country. It seems to me inadvisable that we should depart from that practice at the present time. I have spoken to my right hon. friend the leader of the Opposition on

the subject, as I would not care to make a motion of this kind with regard to an hon. gentleman on the other side of the House without conferring with him. The hon. member for Shefford (Mr. Boivin) has had an experience in this House of some six or seven years. He is eminently qualified by ability and by temperament to undertake the dirties which would devolve upon the Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Committees. Moreover, he has shown a careful study and an intimate knowledge of the rules1, as has been demon' strated on more than one occasion when questions of order were discussed in the late Parliament. I have, therefore, great pleasure in moving, seconded toy Sir George Foster:
That George Henry Boivin, Esquire, member for the electoral district of Shefford, be appointed Chairman bf the Committees of the Whole House.


Wilfrid Laurier: Mr. Speaker, my right hon. friend has stated the rules of the House correctly, and I hope the spirit in which he makes his motion, of recognizing the different elements which [DOT]compose our population, will prevail at all times. The rule iwith regard to the election of a Deputy Speaker has worked satisfactorily in the past, and I am sure I hope it will continue to work so in the .future. My right hon, friend * has stated that, unfortunately .for the Government, it is not Messed with many supporters speaking the language which ought to be spoken toy the Chairman of Committees. I regret that as much as he does, tout it is his own fault and not the fault of the people to whom he al-/ luded, and when he mends his ways he may be sure of (having better support.
For the moment I have to .say to my right hon. friend that it is not in accordance with the practice in Great Britain that the presiding officer of the House should necessarily be a follower of the Government; my right :hoin. friend knows that as well as I do. In Great Britain it has happened over and over again that the leader of the House h.as recommended the appointment, not of one of his own- followers, tout of a member of the opposite party, for the Speakership. I think my right hon. friend (has stated in the House that it would toe preferable if we followed the practice that has prevailed in Great Britain, that the presiding officer should not toe appointed on account of his politics, but quite independently of his politics, and I am of the same opinion also. That practice, however, has never been followed in this country, and I do not know

that it will ever be possible to come to it, but at all events its merits are undoubted. The presiding officer of the House is really a judge between all sides. He is there in the Chair to mete out justice to all and in proper manner, and in this respect the duties of the Deputy Speaker are the same. Mr. Boivin, the gentleman whom my right hon. friend has selected, as I think everybody who has sat in the late Parliament will agree, is well qualified for the office. He is fair and impartial in character, and I believe that when in that Chair he will, as will he his duty, forget that he belongs to a party, and will he there simnly to do justice to both sides. It is not a political office; it is essentially a judicial office. When my hon. friend the member for Shefford (Mr. Boivin) first saw his name mentioned in the newspapers as the possible choice of the House, with a very great sense of delicacy, with which I think I ought to acquaint the House, he was not quite sure whether he could accept. He consulted me about it, and I told him, without any hesitation, that if the choice fell upon him he should unhesitatingly accept the appointment, because it could not be considered a political gift. It is not the gift of the Government, but the gift of the House of Commons and of the people of Canada; or rather, it is a recognition by the House of Commons of the qualities which fit him for the position which he is now entrusted with, and for which I, for my part, am very happy to rejoice.


Robert Laird Borden: Mr. Speaker, I entirely agree with the right hon. gentleman that it would he most desirable if we could adopt in this country the practice which has prevailed in Great Britain. That practice has sometimes in Great Britain been obliged to withstand pretty severe shocks. In 1895, I recollect, there was a very grave question as to whether a Speaker of one party who had been elected about a year before should be continued as Speaker by the other party; but fortunately, the wise counsel prevailed and he was re-elected, and he served with great acceptance and great distinction- Possibly, the course which is being taken to-day may prove to be a step towards the consummation of the ideal, as to the wisdom of which I certainly agree with the right hon. gentleman.
Mr. J. A. CURRIE (Simcoe). Mr. Speaker


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Does the hon. gentleman wish to discuss the motion?


Mr. CURRIE:: Yes.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The Prime Minister
exercised his right of reply in closing the [DOT]debate; perhaps I was remiss in not so advising the House.


John Allister Currie: According to the rules of the House, I understand that every member is supposed to be heard, even though the person who made the motion has been heard the second time. Unfortunately, I did not catch your eye, Mr. Speaker.
I have no desire to make any lengthy remarks on this subject, but I wish to state my oejection to the motion, if no one else will oppose it except myself. It is true that it has been the custom to appoint a member from Quebec to the position either of Speaker or of Deputy Speaker, but there are other members in the House outside the province of Quebec who have a knowledge of the French language, and I think that some steps should have been taken to appoint one of those members. Moreover, if the province of Quebec is desirous of being represented in the person of the Deputy Speaker, the constitutional practice should have been followed, one of the members of the Opposition should have resigned and allowed a supporter of this Government to take his seat and the DepiUy Speakership. That is customary and the constitutional usage; the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker of the House are chosen by the majority in the House. They represent the views of the majority of the House and have done so from the time of Onslow. The constitutional practice followed in England whereby occasionally a Speaker is chosen without regard to politics has not been followed in this Parliament. I sat in the House during the last session and I have not forgotten the opposition of the hon. member for Shefford (Mr. Boivin) to the Military Service Act and to the attempts on the part of members on this side of the House to send aid to the soldiers in the trenches. After listening to the addresses of the leader of the Opposition so far this session, I cannot help thinking that, like the Bourbons, he never forgets and he never forgives. He 'had to bring in a lot of talk about reciprocity and that sort of thing. He has forgotten that when he was the leader of the Government this country was known to the outside world as a few acres of snow. To-day 'Canada has a place in the sun, and that place in the sun has (been given to us by those men who have so nobly fought for Canada and the Empire in the trenches. What will the whole world say if this House appoints this man as
Deputy Speaker-'which no doubt, has been arranged to foe done?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I must ask the hon. gentleman in referring to another member to refer to him as an "hon. member."


John Allister Currie: All right, I will refer to the hon. member for Shefford. ilf this House elects him Deputy Speaker, we shall be electing a man who represents all that a majority of the people of this country voted against during the last election. I feel deeply on this question. I would, almost say that it was a slap in the face for the soldiers in the trenches and of the electors who voted for this Government to appoint a member of this House to the position of Deputy Speaker who has opposed everything that the soldiers voted for and that this Government represents'-that is all.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. SPEAKER informed the House that a message had been received from the Senate acquainting this House that the Hon. Messieurs Bostock, Boyer, Dennis, Douglas, Godbout, Gordon. Laird, Landry, McHugh, McLennan, Poirier, Power, P.C., Richardson, Taylor (New Westminster), and Webster, have been appointed a committee to assist his Honour the Speaker in the direction of the Library of Parliament, so far as the interests of the Senate are concerned, and to act on behalf of the Senate as members of a joint committee of both Houses on the said Library.
Also a message acquainting this House that the Hon. Messieurs Crosby, Dennis, Dessaulles, DeVefoer, Domvi'lle, Donnelly, Farrell, Forget, Legris, .McQaLl, McLean, Pope, Prince, Ratz, Robertson, P. C., Sharpe, Talbot, Taylor (Leeds) Thibaudeau, Todd and White, have been appointed a committee to superintend the printing of the Senate during the present session, and to act on behalf of the Senate as members of a joint committee of .both Houses on the subject of the printing of Parliament.
And also, a message acquainting this House that the Hon. Messieurs Landry, Taylor (Leeds), Thompson and Watson, have .been appointed a committee to assist his Honour the Speaker in the direction of the restaurant of Parliament, so far as the interests of the Senate are concerned, and to act on behalf of the Senate as members of a joint committee of both Houses on the said restaurant.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Sir Robert Borden, tftie House went into committee to consider the following proposed resolution, Mr. Boivin in the Chair:
Resolved, Ttvat it as expedient to provide for the appointment of a Secretary of State for External Affaits, a Minister of Immigration and Colonization, ard a Minister of Soldiers' Civil Re-Establishment, and that the salary of each of the said min'sters shall be $7,000 per annum ; and also to pi. vide for the appointment of a Parliamentary Secretary of the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-Establishment and /that the salary of such Parliamentary Secretary shall bo five thousai d dollars per annum; and to provide that the several salaries of the persons holding the said offices shall be paid out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund of Canada for *the periods during which they have respectively held the offices; and further, to provide that during the present war and for one year thereafter one or mo-e other ministers, not exceeding three, members of the King's Privy Council for Canada, who may toe named by the Governor in Council, may be paid such salaries or other remuneration ns Parliament may provide, and shall not, by reason thereof, be ineligible as Members of tho House of Commons or disqualified to sit or vote therein.
Robert Laird Borden: The necessity
for making provision for a salary for the Secretary of State arises in this way-the Prime Minister has ceased to be President of the Privy Council, which position has filled for a number of years,


Samuel Hughes: I regret exceedingly to have to take the lead in asking the right hon. leader of the Government to speak a little louder. Gentlemen behind cannot hear, and I cannot hear.


Robert Laird Borden: So far as the provision of a salary for the Secretary of State for External Affairs is concerned, the necessity arises owing to the Prime Minister having ceased to be President of the Privy Council. By statute it is provided that the Prime Minister shall be Secretary of State for External Affairs, but as he has received in the past a salary as President of the Council, no salary has ever been provided for the Secretary of State for External Affairs. When the present Government was formed in October last the Prime Minister relinquished the post of President of the Council and it was therefore necessary to make some provision for salary for the Secretary of State for External Affairs. A new ministry, that of Immigration and colonisation, has also been established, .and a ministry of Soldiers' Civil Re-Establishment, as well as a parliamentary secretaryship to the latter department. This resolution makes the usual provision for these salaries. It is not intended

to fill at present the parliamentary secretaryship of the Department of Militia and Defence which has been rendered vacant by the resignation of Mr., McCurdy, who has become Parliamentary Secretary of the Department of Soldiers.' Civil Re-Establishment. So far as the remainder of the resolution is concerned,, it makes provision during the present war for a salary to one or more ministers, not exceeding three, who are members of the King's Privy Council for Canada, and who may be named by the Governor in Council. It it provided that they shall be paid such salaries or remuneration as Parliament may provide and that they shall not by reason thereof be ineligible as members of the House of Commons or disqualified to sit or vote therein. This is intended to provide for a case like that of Mr. Maclean, who is Vice-Chairman of the Committee on Reconstruction and Development, but who does not otherwise preside over any department of the Government. It also provides for the case of Senator Robertson, who is a member of the committee and the chairman of a* very important sub-committee with respect to labour conditions. I may say that insofar as both these gentlemen are concerned, they have, during the period since they assumed these duties, been as actively engaged in the work of the administration as any other members of the Government-In addition to the duties which I have mentioned as devolving upon Mr. Maclean, he has, during the absence of Sir Thomas White, carried on the Work and assumed the responsibilities of the Department of Finance. However, it is in respect to his work as vice-chairman of the committee on reconstruction and development in the past year, in which he has been very actively engaged, that this proposed salary is intended to be provided.


Samuel Hughes: Are these gentlemen named as 'members of the Privy Council?


Robert Laird Borden: Mr. Maclean and Senator Robertson are both members of the King's Privy Council for Canada. They were sworn in as such when they became members of the Government in October last.


Wilfrid Laurier: My right hon. friend has not mentioned who is to be the third minister.
Sir ROBERT BORDEN. There is no intention at present to appoint any third minister.


Wilfrid Laurier: That is only by way of precaution?


Robert Laird Borden: By way of adequate precaution.


Wilfrid Laurier: We have no intention on this side to discuss the measure to-day, but I would like to h^ve more information than my right hon. friend has given me. Perhaps he cannot give it to-day. We would like to know what the number of the members of the administration will be, including the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Maclean), the parliamentaiy secretaries, the Solicitor General and so on. I will not ask my right hon. friend to give that information to-day. I know that he is blessed with a good memory, but there are limits to his memory, and perhaps, in view of the numerous personnel of the Administration, his memory is not equal to the undertaking of giving me the particulars. In the meantime, instead of relying on his memory, he may perhaps look the matter up and, after consulting with his officers, he may be able to get a list of those who are now members of the Administration-


Robert Laird Borden: I am confident
that I can rely on my memory, but I can tell my right hon. friend that I shall certainly bring a list.


George Green Foster: It might stand as an order for a return.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Might I ask my right hon friend the Prime Minister if he could, for the information of the House, give the functions of the Committee on Development and Reconstruction, presided over by my hon. friend the Acting Minister of Finance (Mr. Maclean)?


Robert Laird Borden: I laid the
Order in Council on the table of the House on Monday last and I shall furnish my hon. friend with a printed copy of it before the commencement of the session tomorrow.
Sir 'SAM HUGHES: Are these ministers to accept office without consulting the people or to go back for re-election in the constituencies which they represent?


Robert Laird Borden: Under the Order in Council which is to be confirmed by legislation founded upon. this resolution, my hon. friend from Halifax (Mr. Maclean) was appointed to the position which he holds and was in the enjoyment of a salary before he was elected. I do not understand that it would be necessary for him to seek re-election.


Mr. CANNON:: May I ask the right hon., the leader of the Government if it is true that the Inland Revenue Department is to be merged with the Department of Customs?


Robert Laird Borden: I shall make a statement with regard to that when the Bill comes up again.
Resolution reported, read a first and second time and concurred in.
Sir ROBERT BORDEN moved for leave to introduce Bill No-. 13 to amend the Salaries' Act' and the provisions for preserving the independence of Parliament.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Sir George Foster the House went into Committee on the following proposed resolution, (Mr. Boivin in the Chair):
That it is expedient to provide that vegetables may be sold by the pound and that a dozen of eggs shall mean a dozen eggs weighing not less than a pound and a half; and also that packages containing human food or other commodities should be marked with the name and address of the fillers, and the weight, measuie or quantity of their contents, but not including packages for export or imported into Canada, goods sold in bulk or broken packages, or fresh fruit and' vegetables, and allowing for discrepancies in weight or measure due exclusively to difference in atmospheric conditions and other causes ; and also to provide that firewood shall be sold by the cord, and every cord shall contain one hundred and twenty-eight c ubic feet; and also to provide that every bag of Portland cement shall contain ninety-four pounds net weight, and four such bags shall constitute a barrel, and the bag shall he made of good strong fibrous material and have marked thereon the brand and name of the manufacturer and the net weight; but these provisions should not apply to articles held in stock; and also for the imposition of penalties for the violation of the law.
George Green Foster: This is a resolution that is to form the basis of a Bill to be introduced. Mos-t of the Bill to be introduced is similar to the one introduced last year and which was discussed in the House and distributed throughout the country. One or two additions are made to that. Probably any discussion which takes place upon it had better take place upon the Bill rather than upon the resolution.


Jacques Bureau: I understand that eggs
have been added?


George Green Foster: Yes, eggs and
cord wood have been added.
Resolution reported.	-


INSPECTION AND GRADING OF HAY.
[Stage Direction]
On motion of Sir George Foster the House went into Committee on the following proposed resolution, Mr. Boivin in the Chair:
That it is expedient to provide for the inspection and grading of hay, the licensing of pressers of hay for sale or exportation, the charging- of a fee of one dollar for such licenses, the labelling- cf pressed hay for sale, exportation or importation, the grading of straw, and the imposition of penalties for violation of. the law.
Wilfrid Laurier: Will the minister kindly explain ?


George Green Foster: 
Wilfrid Laurier: The same
grades in the East and the West?


George Green Foster: Oh, no, different grades. The grades established in the East, in the Bill to he introduced, are practically the same as they are at present. There will be new grades established .for the West. Then, there is provision for the inspection, which comes, of course, as a corollary from having grades fixed, and it is also proposed, for statistical purposes chiefly, to authorize the issuing of licenses for the pressing of hay to those who press hay for public sale and for export.


Mr. NESBITT:: Do you mean to the man who presses hay, or to the farmer who gets it pressed?


George Green Foster: To the men wiho are pressers- of hay, and1 that is the reason particularly for this resolution, in order to make provision for that change.


Mr. ELKIN:: Mr. Chairman, in the East, at least, there is not any practical use for the law that now exists in connection with the inspection of hay. Hay is- sold in the East both loose and pressed without any inspection. I would like to have further explanation as to the practical use of this resolution.


George Green Foster: Inspection has previously been carried out in Quebec and in Ontario, and, I think, in other provinces; at least, there has been a provision for inspection which could be brought into force.

I think that is true with reference to the East.


Stanley Edward Elkin: Not in the Maritime Provinces.


George Green Foster: Yes, I think so. However, I will have fuller information upon the introduction of the Bill. This is simply the resolution on which to base the Bill.


Wilfrid Laurier: I presume this new legislation must be necessitated by representations which have been made to my hon. friend to the effect that the present law was not sufficient. I have never heard that there was any complaint from the province of Quebec regarding the existing law. As I understand it this resolution is intended to extend the present law. The export of hay is of great importance in the province of Quebec as well as in other parts of Canada. If my hon. friend has any correspondence on this subject, any suggestions made to him by public bodies or others, I think he should bring it down. The matter is new to a great many of us, and the resolution provides for a very wide extension of the system of licensing. More information should be given-


George Green Foster: All the information in our hands will be brought down.


Joseph Read: The minister states that the inspection of hay applies in the East already. I think that is a mistake. At least, it does not apply to Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick. I think it only pertains to the province of Quebec.


George Green Foster: Quebec and Ontario.


Joseph Read: Not in the Maritime Provinces.


Edmond Proulx: Will the pressers have to guarantee the quality of the hay?


George Green Foster: There are grades of hay established- The inspectors fix the grades, and then those who press it have their duties to perform, which include pressing it properly, keeping out foreign substances, and putting their tags upon it to show the quality of the hay.


Mr. EDWARDS:: I see no pressing need for this legislation in so far as the province of Ontario is concerned. I have no doubt, however, that there is probably some necessity for it in the Maritime Provinces, and no doubt the suggestion for this legislation emanated from the East, -as I understand

there is now in the cabinet a gentleman who is an expert on hay.


Wilfrid Laurier: Hear, hear.


Edmond Proulx: A Bill was presented last year providing different grades of hay. In conversation with an extensive buyer of hay, I was told that the grading was impracticable. I hope that the Bill to be presented this year tyill provide a simpler classification. In the Bill introduced last year five or six grades were provided. My informant was of the opinion that it could not be successfully operated.


George Green Foster: The Bill has been circulated very widely. More or less correspondence and actual conferences have taken place on the Bill as it will be brought down and so far as I can understand from the report of my Department, it has the practical consent of those who are engaged in the hay business. The House will have full opportunity of discussing the Bill and deciding as to whether it is one which ought to be put into operation or not.


Jacques Bureau: Will hay which is not to be exported require to be pressed?
Sir GEORGE FOSTER.: Yes, hay that is sold in this market.


Jacques Bureau: For all hay sold in the home market?


Mr. MICHAUD:: What will be the practice in connection with the selling of either loose or pressed hay?


George Green Foster: This will apply to all hay that is pressed for sale under the grades which are established under the Bill. It will not prevent a man from selling a bundle of hay if he wants to' sell it.


Wilfrid Laurier: It is to apply when a sale takes place on the market?


George Green Foster: Yes.


Mr. OOPP:: Do I understand the hon. Minister to say that the Bill has been printed and circulated to some extent? It has not been sent to any of the dealers this year.
sir GEORGE FOSTER: It has been circulated all through fhe country.


Mr COPP:: The proposed Bill?


George Green Foster: Yes, '


Arthur Bliss Copp: We did not see it down in
o^ur part of the country. I would, like to ask the minister if, after the Bill is introduced,, time will be given for representations to be received from dealers in the Maritime Provinces, i,f necessary?


George Green Foster: Certainly.
Resolution reported, and read the first time.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: ' When shall the resolution be read ,a second time?


George Green Foster: Now.


Wilfrid Laurier: At the next
sitting of the House.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: It being six o'clock, I
now leave the Ohair.


Wilfrid Laurier: May I suggest to the hom. Minister of Trade and Commerce-


Samuel Hughes: Mr. Speaker, I must respectfully enter m,y iproteet at the low tone in which the speaking is carried on across the floor of the House. It is impossible for members to hear what is being said,


Wilfrid Laurier: I am, suggesting to my hon- friend that we go through the Order Paper and not come back this evening.


George Green Foster: We have Bills to consider to-night.
At six o'clock House took recess.
After Recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.


VAN BUREN BRIDGE COMPANY.
[Stage Direction]
House in Committee on the following proposed Resolution:
Resolved, That it is expedient to ratify and confirm an agreement dated the 8th day of March, 191S, between His Majesty the King and the Van Buren Bridge Company for a lease of certain lands situate in the parish of St. Leonards, in the County of Madawaska and Province of New Brunswick and lying between the International Railway and the National Transcontinenta' Railway, at the annual rental of twelve hundred dollars from the 1st day of May, 1518, unv! the 31st day of August, 1934, payable" in half-yearly payments of six hundred dollars <ach on the first day of March and thirty-first day of August in each year; the first payment to he made on the 31st day of August, 1918, for the portion of the semiannual term then expired, and the last payment to l>e made on the 30th day of August, 1934.
Lion. Mr. J. D. REID (Minister of Railways and Canals):: The object, as the resolution itself states, is to confirm an agreement made 'between His Majesty the King and the Van Buren Bridge Company on the 8th March, 1918. This is a portion of the

Bangor and Aroostook railway which runs from the State of Maine into Canadian territory and connects with the Canadian Government railways at St. Leonards. After entering Canadian territory the line crosses the Transcontinental railway and likewise the International railway also owned by the Canadian Government railways. The portion of the railway leased is a stretch 'about two miles in length between the International and the Transcontinental railways, and our object in leasing is to permit us to discontinue the maintenance and upkeep of two stations at St. Leonards. As it is now, trains operating on the International line run to a station that was built for that railway, whilst Transcontinental trains proceed to the station of that railway. By leasing this small portion of the line, trains on the International railway will run over the two miles into the station of the Transcontinental railway. In this way we discontinue the keeping up of the International Railway station. We have taken a lease until the year 1934. The reason for leasing instead of purchasing the two miles is because of the fact that this portion of the line is bonded and the bonds fall due when the lease expires.


Pius Michaud: The International is
operated by the Government?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


Pius Michaud: And the International trains used to go to the Canadian Pacific Railway station instead of running to their own? I am very glad indeed that the minister is providing a Union Station for both the Transcontinental and International railways. I believe that $1,200 will pay the Bangor and Aroostook railway well for the privilege of running over the section leased; it is only a matter of operating a couple of trains a day that we are called upon to pay for.


Charles Murphy: I understood the minister to say in his explanation that the expiry of the lease would coincide with the falling due of the bonds.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


Charles Murphy: Did the hon. gentleman intimate that it was then intended to purchase the line which is now being leased?


John Dowsley Reid: That will depend upon the man who will then he occupying the position of Minister of Railways. The date is too far ahead for me to venture to make a prediction upon. Whoever is Minister of Railways at that time will be free to either

purchase the line or make a new lease. In this instance I might say we are paying a rental which practically amounts to the interest on the cost of building t'he stretch of two miles.


Pius Michaud: I should explain that
International railway freight trains run over the line in question several times a day.


John Dowsley Reid: This will be a portion of our line. The hon. gentleman stated there were only a couple of trains a day, hut we will run. all our freight over this portion of the system. In the past for any International line freight that went over this piece of railway we had to pay the Bangor and Aroostook railway. Now we control the two miles in question the same as though we had purchased it.	[DOT]


Pius Michaud: The minister should understand that several through freight lines run over this line.
Resolution reported, read a first and second time and concurred in.
Mr. REID thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 14 to confirm an agreement 'between His Majesty the King and the Van Buren Bridge Company.
Motion agreed to and Bill read the first time.


MONTREAL HARBOUR ADVANCES ACT, 1914.
[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. C. C. Ballantyne (Minister of Marine and Fisheries), the House went into Committee to consider the following resolution. Mr. Boivin in the Chair:
Resolved, T1 at It is expedient to amend Paragraph (a) of Section 2 of The Montreal Harbour Advances Act, 1914, Chapter 41 of the Statutes of 1914, so as to provide that of the sura of nine million, dollars which the Governor in Council was authorized by the said Act to advance and pay to the Corporation of the Harbour Commissioners of Montreal, such sums may he advanced1 as are required to .pay off and retire debentures of the Corporation of the par value (i three hundred thousand dollars maturing in the year one thousand, nine hundred and eighteen.
Rodolphe Lemieux: Will the minister kindly explain?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The purpose of the Bill is to amend the Montreal Harbour Advances Act-of 1914 to enable the Commissioners to retire, out of moneys to be advanced by the Government, debentures issued to the public and maturing during the year 1918, to the amount of $300,000. My hon. friend from Maisonneuve will

understand that this is the usual way of handling tihe matter. When this money was advanced under the Act of 1914, the Harbour Commissioners thought they would have fully expended the money by the end of 191/, but that not being so, it was necessary to amend the Act as I have just stated.
Resolution reported, read the first and second time and agreed to.
Mr. BALLANTYNE thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 15, to aitiend the Montreal Harbour Advances Act, 1914.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.
Rodolphe Lemieux: Will the Minister be in a position to state, at the next sitting of the House when this Bill is brought up. the programme of work on the Montreal Harbour?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Do I understand
the hon. member to mean the programme of work we contemplate carrying on at Montreal during tihe coming year?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I shall be glad to give that information at the next sitting.


CUSTOMS ACT AMENDMENT.
[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Sir Robert Borden, the House went into Committee to consider the following resolution. Mr. Boivin in the Chair:
An hon. MEMBER:: Is the Bill printed?


Robert Laird Borden: I have a printed copy in my hand. Bills are not printed and distributed until they are introduced. This Bill has not been introduced. If the resolution passes, I shall introduce it immediately, and then it will be printed and distributed.


Mr. SINCLAIR:: It seems to me to be
a very large order for the Government to ask Parliament to give them this power until three years after the termination of the war. There may, of course, he some good reason for it. I can quite understand that during the war it may be necessary for the Government to have this power as to imports and exports, but why we should go so far as to give control of our import and export trade into the hands of the Government independently of Parliament for a period of three years after the war is over, it is difficult to understand. I trust some good reason will be forthcoming with regard to this p^onsal.


Robert Laird Borden: I entirely agree that there should be a full explanation of the grounds upon which the Bill is founded, and my hon. friend may rest assured that the Minister of Trade and Commerce will give his reasons very fully when he moves the second reading of the Bill.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Is it in virtue of this principle that the War Trade Board has been created?
Resolved, Thtt It is expedient to provide thal the Governor in Council may, until the expiration of a pe-iod of three years after the termination of tl* present war, make regulations prohibiting the importation or exportation of goods of any class, description or origin or produced or manufactured in whole or in part m any country or place specified in the regulation, cither generally or from or to any country or place named in the regulation, subject to such, exceptions (if any) as may be specified in the regulation, and to any licenses the grant of which may be authorized by the regulation.


Robert Laird Borden: I am moving
this resolution in the absence of the Minister of Trade and' Commerce (Sir George Foster) who cannot be here this evening. It is merely for the purpose of founding thereon a Bill which is in precisely the same terms. If the hon. gentlemen will be good enough to permit the resolution to be passed pro forma, I shall not attempt any explanation of it in the absence of the minister who will give a full explanation of it upon the second reading.


Robert Laird Borden: No, it has no connection whatever with the constitution of the War Trade Board.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What makes me suggest that there should be a full explanation of the proposed resolution and the creation of the War Trade Board is that I find that an Order in Council was passed about eight or ten days ago prohibiting the export of enumerated articles. I am interested in one-mechanical pulp, sulphite pulp. I went before the War Trade Board the other day in order to obtain a license for a company- On reading this resolution, I thought it was the same principle.


Robert Laird Borden: It may be the
same principle in one sense, but the Bill has no connection with the establishment of the War Trade Board.


Stanley Edward Elkin: Might I ask the Prime Minister, in the absence of the Minister of Trade and Commerce, by what means he proposes to carry out the provisions em-



bodied in this resolution? It is rather a broad resolution, and from many standpoints it might be dangerous for its powers to be carried out by what might be considered a War Trade Board. If the work is to be carried out by officials of the Government, the matter might have an entirely different standing from what it would have if they were carried out by the War Trade Board as at present constituted. It is very important from many points of view that we should know something further about the resolution. The members of the War Trade Board, as I understand, give their services voluntarily -and without remuneration, but the board is not without influence. As we are at the present time importing many articles that are rather dangerous, this control should be exercised by officials of the Department of Trade and Commerce. As the resolution is a broad one and confers a great deal of power, it should be carefully considered by this House.


Robert Laird Borden: There will be the most ample opportunity for discussion of the Bill upon its second reading, and afterwards in Committee of the Whole, where the greatest possible scope is afforded for any discussion of that kind. I am merely asking that the resolution may be passed pro forma in order that the Bill founded upon it may be introduced. The resolution itself provides that the regulations are to be made by the Governor in Council.
Resolution reported, read the first and second time, and concurred in.
Sir ROBERT BORDEN thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 16 to amend the Customs Act and to provide for the temporary control of exports and imports.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Sir Robert Borden, the House went into Committee on the following proposed resolution, Mr. Boivin in the Chair:
Resolved, That It is expedient to amend The Dominion Forest Reserves and Parks Act, Chapter ten of the Statutes of 1911, and to provide that where, for topographical or other reasons, it is rot expedient to use for public road purposes the existing road allowances, the title to which is vested in the Crown in the right of the Province, the Provincial Government may be permitted' to lay out such roads as may he necessary for the convenience of the public, and may he granted title thereto in con-

sideration of the surrender of such portions of the said road sllowances as are not required for public roods; and notwithstanding anything in the said Act, a grant may he made to the Province of British Columbia of the minerals, within the meaning of the Mineral Act of the said province, located in any lands sought to be acquired for mining purposes in the Dominion Forest Reserves in British Columbia, under the provisions of the agreement between the Dominion and che said province as confirmed hy Order in Council dated the eleventh day ot February, ono thousand eight hundred and ninety.
Robert Laird Borden: This resolution,
I think, is self-explanatory. I should be glad if the Comimittee would pass it, in order that the Bill which is founded upon it may be introduced.


John Ewen Sinclair: What are the minerals which it is proposed to transfer to the province of British Columbia.


Robert Laird Borden: All minerals, I suppose, on those lands.


Samuel Hughes: In many parts of the Northwest and British Columbia where railways are located, it is an easy matter to locate a wagon road alongside, to the great advantage of the settlers. At the crossing of rivers, streams and valleys, the same bridge would answer as a public highway. I take the liberty of suggesting that when the Bill is in Committee consideration might be given to this suggestion. The roads alongside the railway would be much shorter than the rectangular roads, and would be of great service to the settlers.


Robert Laird Borden: I shall -bring my hon. friend's suggestions to the attention of the Minister of the Interior.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: This resolution
would seem to indicate that negotiations had taken place with the province in respect to its subject matter. If there is any correspondence, I suppose that it will be brought down upon the second reading by whoever has charge of the Bill.


Robert Laird Borden: I will draw my hon. friend's request to the attention of the Minister of the Interior, and he no doubt will see that it is complied with. -
Resolution reported, read the first and second time and concurred in.
Sir ROBERT BORDEN thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 17, to amend the Dominion Forest Reserves and Parks Act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Sir Robert Borden (Prime Minister) Bill No. 2, to authorize re-arrangements and transfers of duties in the Public Service, was read the second time, and the House went into Committee thereon, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.,
On section 1-.transfers from one minister to another and: from one department to another-amalgamate departments-orders hereunder to be laid before Parliament.
Charles Murphy: Does not the existing
law with reference to the creation and organization of each department give the authority conferred by paragraph (a) of subsection 1?
(Sir ROBERT BORDEN: I think there is such a provision with respect to the Department of External Affairs and possibly two or three other departments, but there is no general provision of this kind.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Would' the right hon.
gentleman specify the cases in which this Act might apply? Am I to understand that presently certain departments are to be transferred to' the jurisdiction of one minister only?


Robert Laird Borden: I gave one illustration the other day which I think is quite appropriate. Patents, copyrights .and trade marks have been attached for a good many years to the Department of Agriculture. We have under consideration the advisability of transferring tbe&e matters to another department.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Like the Archives,
which, I .think, was transferred to the Department of the Secretary of State.


Robert Laird Borden: 
WOMAN SUFFRAGE.
[Stage Direction]
Sir Robert Borden moved the second reading of Bill No.. 3, to confer the electoral franchise upon women.
Rodolphe Lemieux: Might I ask the right hon. gentleman to. postpone this Bill until to-morrow?


Robert Laird Borden: Would hon. gentlemen like it to stand?


Charles Murphy: Until the right hon. leader of the Opposition is here.


Samuel Hughes: 
ESTIMATES FOR 1918-1919.
[Stage Direction]
A message from His Excellency the Governor General transmitting Estimates for the year ending March 31, 1919, was read by (Mr. Speaker to the House and referred to the Committee of Supply.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Wilfrid Laurier: May I ask if it is the Government's intention to have the usual Easter recess next week, which is Holy week, from Wednesday to the following Tuesday?


Robert Laird Borden: It is the intention to have the usual recess from six o'clock next Wednesday afternoon to three o'clock on the Tuesday following.


THE GERMAN OFFENSIVE.
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Samuel Hughes: In view of the reports concerning a very severe engagement on the western front I desire to ask if the Prime Minister has received any word as to the progress being made by our troops?


Robert Laird Borden: Nothing has
come in since the offensive commenced, except the report in the press. I have asked the Minister of the Overseas Forces to keep

us informed from time to time, so far as may be possible, especially with regard to the Canadian Expeditionary Force.


Samuel Hughes: I should like further to suggest that before any figures are given out as to the casualties, they should first be verified. There should he no solemn faces amongst the people of the Dominion; we are prepared to face the worst


Robert Laird Borden: I do not know of any announcement having been given out this year without it first being verified.


Samuel Hughes: Perhaps not this year, but certainly last year.


QUEBEC SISTERS OF CHARITY ORPHANAGE.
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Wilfrid Laurier: May I ask for information from the Government with regard to a report I have seen from the city of Quebec that the military authorities have terminated the lease of a certain property in Quebec which has been under lease for at least forty years to the ladies called the Sisters of Charity, which has been occupied by them as an orphanage, and in which there are now not less than two hundred orphans. Has the lease been terminated? Personally, I think the Citadel property would be better adapted to the Government's military requirements.
MAJOR-GENERAL MEWBURN:	The
property has been occupied as my right hon. friend states, but it was considered valuable for military purposes, and an officer has been sent to Quebec to investigate the matter. The lease has not yet been cancelled, and nothing has been done in the way of removing the occupants from the building. I hope an amicable arrangement will be come to before action is taken.


Robert Laird Borden: The matter came up last autumn. Certain representations were made, in view of which it was arranged that those in occupation of the premises should not be disturbed during the inclement season, but I think it was pointed out then that the property might be required for military purposes this spring.


Mr. H. E. LAVIGUEUR (Quebec County) :: I have just received a letter from the Sisters of Charity in Quebec saying that they have received notice from the military authorities there. There are two hundred orphans in the building, which has been occupied for over fifty years and on which considerable sums of money have been fSir Robert Borden.]
spent. There is no way at all for the Sisters of Charity-
Mr- SPEAKER: It is not in order for the hon. member to enter into any discussion of this matter on the Orders of the Day. It having been brought to the attention of the Government, nothing further can be done at this stage.


Samuel Hughes: I did not hear a word of what my right hon. friend (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) said. Hon. members sitting in this part of the House do not know what the building is to which he refers. I think we must insist on the words being spoken 'loud enough for the members to hear.


Wilfrid Laurier: I am sorry my hon. friend spoke too late. I should have been glad to speak louder if he had directed my attention to it earlier.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Perhaps it would assist very materially if the hon. members themselves would indulge in less conversation.



SUPPLY-INTERIM VOTE.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
Wilfrid Laurier: My hon. friend the Acting Minister of Finance (Mr. A- K. Maclean) some, days ago called my attention to the fact that the Supplies voted by the House last session will expire on the 31st of this month, and he asked me to agree to voting the usual two months' supply in advance of the usual Supply Bill. I have no objection at all, but this vote is being taken on very short notice. I suppose it is all right, but I am not overburdened with confidence in my hon. friend the Minister of Finance.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I can assure my hon.
friend that it is all right. I move:
Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $.26,282,144.31 being one-sixth of the amount of each item set forth in the main estimates for the year ending 31st March 1919, laid on the -table of the House this day, be granted to His Majesty for the year ending 31st March 1919.


Charles Murphy: I have no objection to
the adoption of the resolution, provided it be understood that consent to- its adoption to-day will not preclude the moving at a later period to' strike out any particular item to which any hon. gentleman me.y take exception.
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN- Certainly.


Robert Laird Borden: That is always
understood.
Resolution reported, read the first and second times, and concurred in.



WAYS AND MEANS.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Mr. A. K. Maclean, Acting Minister of Finance, the House went into Committee of Ways and Means, Mr. Boivin in, the Chair.
Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Resolved, that towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the financial year ending 31st March, 1919, the sum of $26,2,8,2,144.31 he granted out of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada.
Resolution reported, read the first and second times, and concurred in.



SUPPLY BILL-INTERIM VOTE.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 18, granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service© for the financial year ending March 31, 1919.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first and second times, 'considered in Committee, and read the third time, and passed.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. Arthur Meighen (Minister of the Interior), Bill No. 17, to amend the Dominion Forest Reserves and Parkis Act, was read the second time, and the House went into Committee of the Whole thereon, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
On section 1-To authorize granting road sites to province© upon surrender of certain road allowances.
Mr.. MEIGHEN: I move that this clause he amended by inserting after the word "may," in line eleven,, the words "by order [DOT]of the Governor in Council."
Wilfrid Laurier: Would the
hon. minister explain the reason of the legislation?


Mr. MEIGHEN:: There are several sections of an entirely different character all relating to different portions of the Act. Tihis first clause is to amend section 9 of the Forest Reserves Act. That section provides .that the Dominion may lay out roads in forest reserves. The previous section had provided that any roads that were already laid out were the property of the province and should remain the property
of the province although embraced within a forest reserve. Now it transpires that certain of the roads which were the property of the province are unsuitable and that the provincial authorities' desire permission to make new roads. But there is no provision in the Act whereby any new road within a forest reserve can be given to a province, and this provides that if the province surrenders the old road the Governor in Council may grant title to the new road, that is given in lieu thereof.


Wilfrid Laurier: I imagine
that this legislation has been suggested by some case which has arisen in some of the western provinces?


Arthur Meighen: In British Columbia.


Wilfrid Laurier: At the present time the reserve which will be immediately affected by this provision will be in British Columbia? Is it in contemplation that it will be applied immediately in any other province than British Columbia?


Arthur Meighen: The Act applies equally to all forest reserves but, from memory, the case that is mow under review is in British Columbia. It is clear that the Act must be general in terms and in all likelihood it will be availed of in any province wherever a road is to be altered. There is no way of altering it now under the law.


Wilfrid Laurier: I do not aek the question in any captious spirit. I believe that conditions may change in these reserves and that such legislation as this may be commendable. I am only asking for information if it is intended to apply this provision anywhere else than in British Columbia.	-


Arthur Meighen: I am not even certain that British Columbia is the province where the immediate case arises but, from memory, I think it is, 'and I do- not know of any more than one case.


Samuel Hughes: The section reads:
Provided, however, that where, for topographical or other reasons, it is not expedient to -use for public road purposes the existing road allowances.
Why not put it the other way and say:
Where it is more expedient to use new routes.
This would make provision for using the old road allowances as well as new routes. There are many places in the Northwest where it is of great advantage to the travelling public to have wagon roads laid out immediately adjacent to the railroads. If

this were changed about as I suggested, it would not 'be restricted to any routes.


Arthur Meighen: I read the hon. gentleman's remarks yesterday, and what he said is quite correct; the Act at present provides for that. The Dominion may lay out a road anywhere without closing any other road.


Samuel Hughes: That is all right.
On section 2-to authorize grant of minerals in forest reserves to Province of British Columbia, under agreement of February, 1890:


Arthur Meighen: It will be remembered that the Privy Council has held that the title to the precious metals in the railway belt is in the province, and that the title to the baser metals and to the surface is in the Dominion. In the administration of the Act in the past, constant difficulties arose, which difficulties were got over by the agreement that is referred to here whereby it was provided that if an applicant worked mineral rights in the province, and lived up to the provisions of the Mineral Act of the province, he could acquire patent on payment of a fixed amount, or he could acquire title to the surface rights and to the baser metals. That arrangement has been working ever since 1890, and in consequence we do not administer any of the baser metals in the Railway Belt except coal, and there is very little coal. But when the Dominion Forest Reserves Act was passed in 1911, there was a clause of that Act by which the Minister was refused permission to convey title to any lands at all within the limits of a forest reserve. These lands were locked up and no one was empowered by authority of Par-. liameht to issue a patent for any purpose whatsoever. The result was that wherever there were mineral claims in relation to these lands it was impossible to carry out the terms of the agreement of 1890. By this amendment we propose to make it possible to carry out the terms of the agreement in respect to forest reserve lands just as in respect to other lands in the railway belt.


Wilfrid Laurier: I did not exactly follow what was said by my hon. friend (Mr. Meighen). By a decision of the Privy Council one class of metal was held to be the property of the province and another class of metal was held to be the property of the Dominion?


Arthur Meighen: Yes.


Wilfrid Laurier: The baser
metals were held to be the property of the province ?


Arthur Meighen: No, of the Dominion;
the precious metals were held to be the property of the province.


Wilfrid Laurier: Under the law as it is to-day the baser metals belong to the Dominion, and the object is to transfer these baser metals to the province?


Arthur Meighen: No, not quite. The
object is not to transfer the baser metals in toto to the province by any means. The object is to enable us to carry out the arrangement as to the transfer of the baser metals to the patentee of the province in individual cases, which, arrangement we made in 1890 but which, by reason of the Forest Reserves Act of 1911, cannot now be applied in the case of forest reserves. Under the arrangement of 1890, it was provided that wherever a man was, under the law of the province entitled to a patent, having lived up to the regulations and to the Mineral Act of the province, he could get a patent from the province to the precious metals, and that he thereby became entitled to a patent frojn the Dominion to the baser metals and surface rights upon payment of a fixed amount. But, by the Forest Reserves Act, it was provided that no patent could be given under any conditions to any lands in the forest reserves. Consequently a patent could not be given to a patentee of mineral rights in the province. This amendment provides that we may carry out the arrangement of 1890 as respects forest reserve lands just as we could previously carry it out, and as we now carry it out, as respects other lands in the railway belt.


Wilfrid Laurier: It means that the metals which belong to the Dominion [DOT]may be transferred to the province and by the province 'granted to somebody for the purpose of exploitation?


Arthur Meighen: May ,be transferred
direct to the patentee of the province.


Wilfrid Laurier: Exactly. Is not this possibly interfering with the policy which guided Parliament when it passed the Act of 1911, that is to say, to preserve the forest reserves certain restrictions are necessary ns far as possible to keep the forests in a state of nature and prevent exploitation by 'human hands. The great tendency to-day is toward the exploitation of minerals in forests, and, in consequence, valuable quantities of timber land are destroyed every year. Now, as I understand,

the object of my hon. friend is to permit exploitation of minerals. In many cases, in order to get at one good mine, it may be necessary to open ten, and all the dangers which I have mentioned may, therefore, arise in the forest. Do I understand that the policy of my hon. friend is that if a man goes into a Dominion reserve and locates a mine he would get title from my hon. friend, who is the administrator of the reserve, or would he go to the Government of British Oolmmlbia, and would the hon. minister give the land to the Government of British Columbia? Is that the object, of the legislation? I am afraid that it will have to 'be very carefully guarded if the purpose of the Act of 1911, to preserve the forests, is to he maintained.


Arthur Meighen: What the right hon. gentleman says is correct that in so far as this operates it does give encouragement to the exploiters of minerals, even in forest reserves. But, on the other hand, it must ibe remembered that by no Act of Parliament can we take away from a province what is now the property of the province even in forest reserves. By the Act of 1911 we closed the forest reserves in so far as we had control of them.


Wilfrid Laurier: It is the property of the province?


Arthur Meighen: The provinces still own their own imetals in these reserves.


Samuel Hughes: In all the provinces?
Hon, Mr. MEIGHEN: No, in the railway belt. This clause has no application at all except to forest reserves in the railway belt of British Columbia, because in the forest reserves of the other provinces different conditions apply. It would :be a serious responsibility for Parliament to take such action, or to refuse to take such action as would result in virtually denying to the province of British Columbia access to its own vested rights in the forest reserves. So some way has to be found. I do not think this a very serious matter, because I do not think there is much exploitation in the railway lands. All that I recommend to Parliament is that we comply with the agreement of 1890-and do not fall away from that agreement in the matter of our forest reserve lands. I know of no other way by which we may maintain our rights intact, and at the same time not deny to the province the strict benefit of all their possessions in these reserves.
Sec. 2 agreed to.
On Sec. 3-To take a piece of land out of forest reserve and park.


Wilfrid Laurier: What is the meaning of that clause?


Arthur Meighen: Clause 3 defines the area of the Rocky mountain forest reserve.


An hon. MEMBER:: That is not included?


Arthur Meighen: Yes. The Rocky mountain forest reserve is defined in the Forest Reserve Act of 1911, and the description appears in the schedule to the Act. This excepts from that schedule a quarter-section of land. The explanation is that, in 1908, previous to the passing of the Act, there had been lands withheld from entry in contemplation of being finally included in forest reserves. Among the lands surveyed and held for inclusion was this quarter-section, and a map was sent to the agent of Dominion lands for the district, concerned, namely, Calgary, on which the limit of the forest reserve was clearly shown, and the following words were included in the memo sent the agent at the time the map was forwarded:
Please note that no homestead entries have been granted1 for lands lying west of the line indicated.
These words should have been:
Please note that no entries are to he granted for lands lying west of the line indicated.
Had he looked at the map very carefully the ,agent would have seen that the intention was to exclude from entry the land west of that line. [However, the agent gave entry to a Mr. Andrew Nelson on this quarter-section and another quarter-section. Before the mistake was [noticed, Mr. Nelson had virtually earned patent for that quarter-section, and Mr. Nelson *was not at fault. He bad made his home 'there; he had made improvements; and it was not until, 1 think, very recently that the controller of the land patent branch discovered, that the land was in the forest reserve. It /was felt the only equitable thing to do was to take this land out of the reserve inasmuch as it is just on the border in any event, and give Mr. Nelson title to it.


Wilfrid Laurier: May I ask
what Mr. Nelson has done upon that quarter-section? Has he put up a building or cleared the land?


Arthur Meighen: Yes, he has complied with all the requirements of the Dominion Lands Act.


Wilfrid Laurier: The remedy
should then be to expropriate the land and to compensate the patentee. If you permit this man to start a farm or settlement in the reserve, you may thereby very materially affect the k value of the reserve. These forest reserves are of the greatest importance and should be carefully preserved. Many thousands of acres of the most valuable timber land have been set aside in this reserve and you are permitting somebody to settle upon a quarter-section in it, and there is all the risk < f fire which vill arise and which might destroy that property altogether. If a mistake has been made, unless this man has a very valuable settlement, it would be far better to compensate him generously rather than to have him on the reserve. I think every-. body will agree to that.
'Hon. Mir. /MEIGHEN:	My right hon.
friend's argument would have considerable force if this were a quarter-section' within the reserve and not on the boundary of the reserve. But this is a quarter-section right on the end of it, and his own farm is right across the road. The two. quarter-sections are the N.E. I of 13-13-3 W. 5-M and the S.E. i of 24-13-3 W. 5-IM. My right hon. friend's remarks would have more force if the danger of fire were at all increased by his ownership of this land, but the fact is he has land right across the way, so there is virtually no change in this regard, I do not think it would be wisdom to expropriate. We have the power to do so undeT the Forest Reserve Act. If the land were enclosed far in the reserve it would be advisable to expropriate, but the recommendation of the head of the branch, who has all the facts, is that we should simply leave him undisturbed. In this same connection, many lands have been reserved for inclusion in forest reserves, and that the minister has power himself to remove those lands from such inclusion if it is found that it is not in the public interest that they be continued. He has not the power here, for the reason that these were lands that were not held for inclusion or were actually included in the first place.
I am afraid we will pay pretty dearly for it. I think the officer who examined the ground probably knows that no serious detriment to the reserve is probable by the removal of this quarter-section.


Charles Murphy: Has he reported to that effect?


Arthur Meighen: Yes.


Wilfrid Laurier: I will not dispute the facts because my hon. friend is familiar with them and I am not. I must say, however, that the principle seems to be a very vicious one. It would be far better under the circumstances to adhere to the policy of expropriation.


Arthur Meighen: I understand there is no other case of entry within the forest reserve.
Bill reported.


INSPECTION AND SALES ACT AMENDMENT.
[Stage Direction]
Resolution in respect to the weights and measures of certain human food and other commodities read a second time and concurred in.	,
Sir GEORGE FOSTER thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 19, to Amend the Inspection and Sale Act, (vegetables, eggs, food containers, firewood and cement).
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time-

[Stage Direction]
Resolution in respect to the Inspection and Grading of Hay, read a second time and concurred in.
Sir GEORGE FOSTER thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 20, entitled An Act to Amend the Inspection and Sale Act, (Hay and Straw Inspection).
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Sir Robert Borden Bill No. 2, to authorize re-arrangement and transfer of duties in the public service was read a third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
Rt. Hon. Sir ROBERT BORDEN moved the 'Second reading of Bill No. 3, to confer the electoral franchise upon women.
He said: Before the Bill is read a second time, it is proper that I should give some explanation to the House. Hon. gentlemen are aware that in five provinces of the Dominion at the present time women have

the right to vote in provincial elections. I am infoimied that a Bill conferring the franchise upon women has heen introduced in the legislature of the province of Nova Scotia at its- present session. If that Bill should pass, the position would then be that in six provinces of tlhe * Dominion women have the right to vote in provincial elections, and in the three other provinces they have not that right. Then the situation, so far as this Parliament is concerned, would resolve itself into three alternatives: either that we should leave the situation as it is at present, or that we should extend the franchise for Dominion purposes in each province to those women who enjoy it for provincial elections in such province, or third, that we should enact a measure in this Parliament which would enfranchise women generally, under proper safeguards as to naturalization, to which question I shall refer in a feiw moments. It has seemed to the Government advisable that the third alternative should Ibe adopted.
Wilfrid Laurier: Which?


Robert Laird Borden: To enfranchise women generally throughout the Dominion. I do not depend for this upon the considerations which I have placed before the House as to the condition of provincial legislation on the subject. I do not even base it on the wonderful .and conspicuous service and sacrifice which women have rendered .to the national cause in the war. Apart from all these, I conceive that women are entitled to the franchise on their merits, and it is upon, that basis that this Bill is presented to Parliament for its consideration. It is our belief that the influence of women exercised in this way will he a good influence in public life. We believe that beneficial results have ensued wherever the franchise- has been granted to them; indeed the principle of granting the franchise to women generally was practically affirmed in the Last Parliament.
There are, however, some considerations with regard to naturalization to which I must direct the attention of the House; those hon. gentlemen who were members of the last Parliament will recollect that they were then referred to. In 1914 the Parliament of the United Kingdom passed an Act known as the British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act, 1914. That Act was passed also in Canada, and I think in some of the other dominions, in pursuance of a resolution which was adopted at the Imperial Conference of 1911, and which sought to bring about such an arrangement
between the Mother Country and the selfgoverning dominions as would place naturalization on a more satisfactory basis than it had previously occupied. There was a good deal of correspondence and discussion between this Government and the Government of the United Kingdom with regard to certain provisions of that Act, but eventually, in 1914, we passed in this Parliament a measure which in every respect, I believe, corresponds with the second part of the Imperial Act to which I have alluded. By section 10 of that Act it is provided that the wife of a British subject shall be deemed to be a British subject and the wife of an alien shall be deemed to
4 p.m. be an alien. In 1914, after our Act had been passed, an amendment was made in the British Act, and we made a corresponding amendment in our Act at the war session in 1914. Section 10, to which I have just referred, was amended by adding thereto these words:
Provided that where a man ceases during the continuance of his marriage to be a British subject, it shall be lawful for his wife to make a declaration that she desires to retain British nationality, and thereupon she shall be deemed to remain a British subject.
Apart from that, the qualifications necessary to any person who might desire to become a naturalized British subject in Canada under the Naturalization Act of 1914 were set out in section 2 of the Act, as follows:
(a)	that he has either resided in His Majesty's dominions for a period of not less than five years in the manner required by this section, or been in the service of the Crown for not less than- five years within the last eight years before the application; and,
(b)	that he is of good character and has an adequate knowledge of either the English or French languages; and,
(c)	that he intends if his application is granted either to reside in His Majesty's dominions or to enter or continue in the service of the Crown.
The second subsection provides as follows:
The residence required' by this section is residence in Canada for not less than one year immediately preceding, the application, and previous residence, either in Canada or in some other part of His Majesty's dominions, for a _ period of four years within the last eight years before the application.
One very important change that was made by this .statute was the bhang'e in the length of residence required. Under previous Acts -[DOT]which, however, granted only a local naturalization operative in Canada-the period of only three years' residence was required. In discussing at the last session the question of extending the franchise to

women, I pointed out certain anomalies which would result unless some amendment were made in the Naturalization Act, or some other pro-vision enacted to meet the possibilities to which I am about to refer.
Under the present law of Canada it is necessary that a man shall be either a natural-horn or a naturalized citizen of His Majesty in order that he may exercise the franchise. But inasmuch as a woman merely by her marriage to a natural-horn or naturalized British subject becomes a British subject herself, it might be that without some such precautionary enactment as I have referred to, a woman residing only a few weeks or a few months in Canada would be entitled to exercise the franchise. On the other hand, there is the converse difficulty: that a woman who was & natural-born British subject and who married an alien woulld, merely by the -fact of her marriage, lose the right to vote. These questions seemed to present very considerable difficulty, and I had much doubt at one time whether they could be met and solved without -an amendment of the Naturalization Act itseffif. I think there is a good deal to be said for some amendment which would give to a woman the right to determine her own nationality, notwithstanding 'her marriage, because if a woman, notwithstanding her marriage, is to have the right to exercise the franchise in this country, the natural conclusion therefrom would be that she ought to- -have the right to determine her own nationality. However, if we -waited for any such amendment of the Naturalization- Act, dt is possible that we would have to wait -a long time; therefore, we have endeavoured so to provide in this Bill that such -difficulties as those to which I have -alluded cannot -possibly arise.
The measure -is a very short one, and I ho-pe h-on. gentlemen will understand that its length does- not -at all correspond to the amount of time that was bestowed upon it before this solution was found. It is proper that I should give -an explanation of the Bill, which is within very short compass.
-Section 1 provides, in the first subsection, as follows:
1.

(1) Every female person shall be entitled to vote at a Dominion eleotion who,-[DOT]
(a)	is a British subject;
(b)	is of the full -age of twenty-one years and- upwards;
(c)	has resided in the constituency In- which she seeks to vote for a period of at least three months immediately preceding the date of the issue of the writ for an election in such constituency ; and,
(d)	is not disqualified on account of race, blood or original nationality to vote at

elections for members of the Legislative Assembly of the province in which the constituency is situate in which such female person seeks to vote.
Hon. gentlemen- will observe that a period of three months immediately -preceding the election is required in the particular constituency in which the woman shall be entitled to vote. It follows from certain dispositions to which I shall refer later that the woman, unless she is a natural-born- or a naturalized British -subject, must have lived in this country -for a much longer period. Paragraph (d) provides that we shall follow the enactments of provincial legislatures with regard to disqualification on account of race, blood or original nationality.


Samuel Hughes: What is meant by " blood "?


Robert Laird Borden: I understand that this is the form of expression which has been used in some of the provincial enactments alluded to.


Samuel Hughes: It is not shown as a quotation; that is why I asked.


Robert Laird Borden: No, but the same language is used in order that we may follow precisely the law of the provinces in that respect.


Samuel Hughes: Is there any intention of enfranchising the Indians? They are fighting at the front like heroes.


Robert Laird Borden: 
Wilfrid Laurier: The House is very thin at the moment, and I do not purpose to discuss the principle of the Bill at this stage, as I understand several members wish to speak on it. I suggest that we give the Bill its second reading and go into Committee upon it, when the information I desire can better be given than across the floor of the House.


Mr. THOMAS HAY (Selkirk):: Is an educational test to be provided in connection with this Bill?. If not, would it be necessary for the women to comply with the educational test of the province before being allowed to vote at a Dominion election?


Robert Laird Borden: My hon. friend perhaps did not observe that I pointed out tlie provisions of the Naturalization Act. Subsection (b) of section (2) of that Act provides that any person seeking naturalization must be of good character and must have an adequate knowledge of either the English or the French language; that is the only educational test. Inasmuch as this Bill provides that any woman who has not been naturalized m her own right must, fulfil the same requirements as if she were seeking naturalization, the condition which I have just read would apply to her, and she must fulfil it before being granted the vote.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the second time, and the House went into Committee thereon, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
On section 1-Women to be entitled to vote:
Mr. STEVENS. There is one point I am not quite clear about. Paragraph (c) provides that the woman shall have resided in the constituency in which she seeks to vote for a period of at least three months. Do I understand that a woman from a foreign,
but not an alien enemy country, who comes to Canada and is married to a British subject four months, we wi'll say, prior to an election, thereby securing British citizenship, is able to vote?
Robert Laird Borden: 'She must fulfil the qualifications required by paragraph (c) of subsection (2). Subsection (2) makes it necessary that she shall have resided in Canada a sufficient length of time and be possessed of all the requirements necessary to entitle her, if unmarried, to become naturalized as a British subject. She must reside in Canada for at least a year, and must reside within the Empire for at least five years.


Wilfrid Laurier: She must become naturalized, and in addition to that must have lived three months in the constituency. v	,


Robert Laird Borden: If she becomes naturalized by reason of marriage or by reason of being a minor at the time when her father, being an alien, was naturalized, she must show before a judge of a Superior Court that she has fulfilled all the requirements that would be necessary if, being an unmarried woman, she were making an application for naturalization on her own behalf- The three months' residence in the constituency is an additional qualification.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: Those three months may be counted as part of the time?


Robert Laird Borden: Certainly.


Samuel Hughes: I would suggest that instead of saying "three months," we say "ninety days." Some three months would be more than ninety days, and others would be less.


Robert Laird Borden: It is pretty much the same.


Wilfrid Laurier: There is no
objection that I can see to paragraphs (a), (b), and (c), but I imay call attention to paragraph (d) which seems to me most objectionable. It provides that every female person shall be entitled to vote at a Dominion election who,
(d)	is not disqualified on account of race, blood or original nationality to vote at elections for members of the Legislative Assembly of the province in which the constituency is situate in which such female person seeks to vote.
Take the law of the province in that respect. If there is to be in any province any legislative enactment which prohibits a woman from voting, our law respects that part of the provincial legislation. If in

British Columbia, tor instance, an alien is disqualified on account of race, blood, or original nationality from voting in the province, she cannot vote in a Dominion election. If, on the other hand, in the neighbouring province there is no such prohibition, then she is allowed to vote in the Dominion election. 'I think that is the proper interpretation of the law. This provision was put in the negative. That is to say, we adopt the provincial legislation in the negative.


Robert Laird Borden: In order to make the matter perfectly clear, permit me to say that we are merely carrying out in this respect, the same principles with regard to women which now prevail in regard to men'.


Wilfrid Laurier: 
Robert Laird Borden: I entirely understand that the United States have a provision in their Constitution that the franchise adopted in the different states is to be used for elections to the federal Congress- We have no such a law in this country. I am not prepared to admit that it is not perfectly competent for this Parliament to create its own franchise law, apart altogether from the provinces. We need not discuss that at the moment. For the present we are proceeding along the lines of provincial legislation. We are guided by that in framing this law. There are certain restrictions in some of the provinces as to race and nationality in respect to men. We are simply providing in this Bill inat there shall be precisely the same restrictions in respect to women. That is all. As we have followed the line of provincial legislation with regard to men, we think it proper also to follow the same line when we are giving the franchise to women. There is only one possible anomaly to which it is proper that I should draw the attention of the committee, and it has not been alluded to by my right hon. friend. I think this Bill gives to women a somewhat wider franchise in certain of the provinces than men enjoy at the present time. For example, there are certain difficult and intricate provisions relating to the franchise in my own province. The right is enjoyed by farmers' sons based upon a certain valuation of property. There is also a similar provision in regard to fishermen. These dispositions are not of a character to be made applicable to women, and inasmuch as women have waited a long time for the privilege of exercising their franchise, I do not think it will do any harm if they ha've a somewhat wider franchise than the men in the province to which I have alluded.


Wilfrid Laurier: No, but it may create confusion. In my own province you give to the women universal manhood suffrage.


Robert Laird Borden: Womanhood suffrage.


Wilfrid Laurier: That is not the law in Quebec, although in most of the provinces they have universal manhood suffrage. Every man has a vote who is twenty-one years of age. In the province of Quebec the franchise is not given as a right, but it is made accessible to everybody. Every man in Quebec is a voter-who is a land owner.	.


Robert Laird Borden: Does it depend on a property qualification in Quebec?


Wilfrid Laurier: I think one qualification is that he must be the owner of land. The lessee of property of a value of $2 a month in cities is also a voter.


Robert Laird Borden: Does it not practically amount to manhood suffrage?


Wilfrid Laurier: In practice it does, but it is not claimed as a right. No one has a right to go to the poll and say: " I am 21 years of age and demand a vote." He must show that be is the owner or lessee of land, or that he is a wage-earner getting $300 a year, or a professor, or a schoolmaster, or something of that kind. But under this provision every woman of 21 years of age will have the right to step into the poll and say that she is entitled to vote. No distinction is made by this Bill as to these qualifications applicable to men. All other considerations are put to one side.


Joseph Read: I draw the attention of the Prime Minister to paragraph (d) of section 1:

is not disqualified on account of race, blood, etc.
In the province of Prince Edward Island there is a very large Micmac population, and there will be a technical difficulty in regard to giving the wives of Indians the right to vote. The paragraph reads:
(d) is not disqualified on account of race, blood or original nationality to vote at elections for members of the Legislative Assembly of the province in which the constituency is situate in which such female person seeks to vote.
The men have the right to vote in the province, but the women have not. As this paragraph reads, there will toe difficulty in regard to the franchise of the wives of these Indians. I want to say in regard to the tribe of Miomacs that they have shown thern-s'elves to be the most loyal people in Canada. They have recruited over eleven per

cent of the whole population of the tribe for service at the front, and I take it that the law does not intend to disqualify their women from voting. It is simply a technical matter, and it will be apparent to the right hon. gentleman if he looks closely at the Elections Act. I hope he will make provision to give these women the vote.


Robert Laird Borden: I shall take the observations of my hon. friend (Mr. Read) into consideration. I do not know that I could quite follow them, as he did not speak very loudly, tout I will read his observations in Hansard and give them the best consideration possible.


William Folger Nickle: I may misapprehend the law, tout it appears to .me that theTe is a rather anomalous condition toeing created by paragraph (c) of section 1. This paragraph gives the right to a woman to vote if she has been three months in the constituency immediately preceding the date of the election; whereas, section 32 of the War Times Election Act, subsection 2, adopted the .provincial residential qualification which sets out that the male voter must have resided for one year in the province. Will not an anomalous condition be created if a woman who has resided in the electoral district for three months is entitled to vote, whereas the man will have to wait a year? Take the case of two immigrants coming from the old country, a man and a woman, and both British subjects; the man would not be entitled to vote unless he had been a resident of a province for a year, whereas the woman would be entitled to vote if she had lived in the constituency for three months.


Robert Laird Borden: If they were both British subjects?


William Folger Nickle: Yes. There seems to be rather an anomaly in this way that the Act penalizes those who have for a protracted period been entitled to the franchise and makes a concession in favour of those who are just receiving it.


Robert Laird Borden: I imagine that particular provision- was not observed by the draftsman of the Act and I will direct his attention to it. We will see what should be done in that respect before the matter is finally disposed of.


William Folger Nickle: Possibly I may misapprehend the provision of the Act.


Samuel Hughes: Does not the Dominion Franchise Act allow a man to vote if he resides thirty days in the constituency or in the province?


Robert Laird Borden: The hon. member for Kingston (Mr. Nickle) was referring to the War-Times Election Act. I think the provision there may be different. I shall examine it further.


John Ewen Sinclair: There is another point that I wish to draw to the attention of the Prime Minister. A residence of three months qualifies a woman to vote under this Act. If it is intended that the provincial lists shall be adopted, and if the recording of the names of these women is to be done by the officials of the province in Nova Scotia, I would point out to the right hon. gentleman that provision is made in that province that the revision shall be completed on the 5th of April each year and that the revision lasts for twelve months. If an election took place nearly twelve months after the revision there would be a large number of women qualified under this Act who would not be cn the list. I am not clear as to whether it is intended that the local lists shall be adopted but if so there would be that difficulty.


Robert Laird Borden: If women were on the provincial list in Nova Scotia the difficulty would not so occur. Assuming that the legislation which I mentioned a moment ago should not pass in the legislature of Nova Scotia, and with respect to any other province where women are not placed upon the provincial lists, there would have to be some machinery provided under the Dominion Elections Act. Machinery already exists under the WarTimes Elections Act which is in force for the time being. Before the Dominion Elections Act is to be resorted to, my hon. friend is quite right in suggesting that some machinery must Ibe provided.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: I had it in mind to ask the Prime Minister that particular question. I see by clause 2 of thp Act that the Act is to be construed as one with the Dominion Elections Act and the WarTimes Elections Act. That very particularly affects the province of Quebec where, under the system adopted, enumerators have to be appointed. This system was not necessary prior to the last election. Is that system to continue and wilT enumerators have to he appointed?


Robert Laird Borden: As far as the War-Time Elections Act is concerned, it will continue because it is one of the provisions of the Act. I have already . explained that in the application of the measure to the Dominion Elections Act I think it is very probable that some addi-

tional machinery will have to be provided fcr placing the names of women upon the electoral lists in the Dominion.
On subsection 2, section 1-a British subject for purposes of this Act.


Mr. MORPHY:: I presume that under
the rules of the House when a Bill is in Committee, one may Tefer to a former section. I would like to make a remark about, subsection (3) of section 1, which reads:
Every female person shall he entitled to vote at a Dominion election who. ... (d) Is not disqualified on account of race, blood or original nationality to vote at elections for members of the Legislative Assembly of the province in which the constituency is situate, etc.
These terms are so abstract that I think they should he defined: in some w.ay in the Act. One can hardly understand exactly w.hatt they do mean. I confess I do not. The next point I would .like to' make is that, 'in my opinion, a Franchise Act relating to the whole of Canada, so far as women are: concerned, should contain within itself dearly and distinctly all the provisions which go to show in what the franchise consists and the requisite qualifications of the pershn who- is to enjoy the franchise. I must confess that the War-time Elections Act was a very difficult one to understand. Lawyers, as well as men of business, disagreed' about it; and when we consider that our election machinery must be handled throughout the length and breadth of Canada toy men in rural districts, educated no doubt pretty well, bat still farmers, who have to take care of the rural polls, I submit that it is the dhty of this Parliament to make the Election Act as plain as possible and not as complicated as this Bill appears to be. The working out of this Bill, as I see it here now, is going to be very difficult. There are too many abstractions in it. I submit that the Act itself should contain all the factors that show in what the franchise consists. Where it depends upon the Naturalization Act, let us have the naturalization clauses put right in the Bill, so that we. can get down to a complete, concrete Act that can be understood by the very commonest man in the country.


Robert Laird Borden: It is a very
useful form of legislation to enact by reference. I really cannot see that there should he any difficulty about working it out as this Bill prescribes.


Samuel Hughes: Could the hon. First Minister work out the Last Elections Act
in regard to enumerators and every thing else?


Robert Laird Borden: No, I never had occasion to attempt it. I am not talking about the War-Time Elections Act, I am talking about this Act. I really cannot agree with my hon. friend from Perth (Mr. Morphy) that there is the lack of information in the Bill which impresses him. The first subsection seems to me to be tolerably clear, and I think I shall be able to show that- the words which are used there have a distinct meaning within the law. However, I shall give consideration to what he has observed in that respect and shall speak further upon the matter when the Bill is next in 'Committee.


Mr. REDMAN:: Mr. Chairman, I would
like to draw the attention of the committee to paragraph (c), subsection 2, section 1, giving British nationality to any woman who marries a British subject, or to any woman who qualifies on account of her father having been naturalized while she was a minor. If that is the intention of the section, it seems to me that a grammatical interpretation will not convey that idea. The subsection reads:
If, being a married woman and previously an alien, she has become a British subject by marriage, or by the naturalization as a British subject of her father while she was a minor-
Now, it seems to me that the words beginning "if, being a married woman'' grammatically govern the entire clause down to the word "minor," and if the first interpretation which I gave is the correct one, then the reading would be much more clearly conveyed by striking out the words "if being a married woman" and substituting the words "if, having been previously an alien, she has become a British subject by marriage, or by the naturalization as a British subject of her father while she was a minor." In the etent of that not being the intention, then it would appear that any woman acquiring British nationality through the naturalization of her father while she was a minor, and who had married either a British subject or an alien, would not acquire British nationality which would enable her to exercise the franchise.
Sir ROBERT BORDEN. I think there is some force in what my hon. friend has observed. It probably could be corrected by inserting the words "or, if she has become a British subject by the naturalization as a British subject of her father." I shall make a note of my hon. friend's suggestion.


Wilfrid Laurier: Mr. Chairman, it seems to me there is a great deal of force in the observation of my hon- friend from Perth (Mr. Morphy), that this Bill should contain everything that is intended. Let me call at once to the attention of my hon. friend the difficulty which arises. Subsection (c) reads:
If, toeing a married woman and previously an alien, she has become a British subject by marriage, or by the naturalization as a British subject of her father while she was a minor, and in either case has done nothing, (other than in the second case by marriage) to forfeit or lose her status as a British subject, and obtains and presents to the official in charge of the preparation or revision of the voters' lists of the said constituency a certificate under the signature of a judge or any court of record1, etc.
If I understand this aright, it is intended that the provincial lists should be used and that no special lists should be made. At the present time the provincial lists are used: we make no. Dominion list. We accept the lists of the provinces, and I think that is quite proper. If that he so, it seems to me the application for registration should be made at the time that the lists are prepared. The time at which the lists are prepared differs in almost every province. In Ontario, I think, they are prepared in the month of September or thereabouts, and in Quebec also they are prepared in September. I do not know the practice in the other provinces. But it seems to me that, the Prime Minister should provide that the application for registration should be made at the time the lists are prepared. Otherwise, if there is no period stated in which applications are to be made, when must applications be made? Are they to be made at all times, even on the day of voting?
Sir.ROBERT BORDEN: I shal1 consider what my right hon. friend has observed, hut I should think it would follow as a matter of course, that the certificate must be produced before the woman can be put upon the list.


Wilfrid Laurier: She has to
produce her certificate? In my own province the lists are prepared under the authority of the municipal council, in very much the same Way as they are in Ontario. The secretary of the council prepares the lists and when ready they are submitted to the council and discussed by it. That system works very smoothly and creates no difficulty at all. Anybody who regards himself as qualified makes his application to the clerk who puts it upon the list and
[ Sir Robert Borden. ]
it is discussed by the council. I would suggest that something of the same kind should be provided for here:	the woman
goes to the clerk of the council with her certificate, which she has obtained from the judge, and then she can be registered. I want my right hon. friend to take into consideration the time when the lists are prepared in every province.


Samuel Hughes: Should not the Bill contain some provision as to the preparation of the lists?


Robert Laird Borden: I have already explained my conception of the law. I think that under the War-time Elections Act there is machinery under which lists containing the names of women, entitled to vote under this Act could be prepared. I have also mentioned in reply to my hon. friend from Antigonish and Guysboro, (Mr. Sinclair) who, I think, raised this point, that so far as the Dominion Elections Act is concerned, when this legislation comes to be applied, there must be some machinery provided for this purpose.


Samuel Hughes: If you are depending upon the War-time Elections Act it will require all the lawyers in the House to interpret it, and then no two of them will agree.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Do I understand that
paragraph (c), subsection 2, will be amended, and that women will ibe under the same obligation as men to reside in the country for a year and in the constituency for three months?	.


Robert Laird Borden: I said I would consider the point.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: While on my feet, I
would like to endorse what the hon. member for North Perth (Mr. Morphy) said, that this legislation would be much more intelligible if there were not so many references in it. It is a very tedious and difficult matter to hunt up the information necessitated by the many references. I see no reason why the Bill should not be more sim/ply drawn.


William Folger Nickle: I would like the Prime
Minister to make a note of this point: Paragraph (c) of the subsection 2, section 1, reads as follows, speaking of married women who have become British subjects:
If, being a married woman and previously an alien, she has become a British subject by marriage, or by the naturalization as a British subject of her father while she was a minor, and in either case has done nothing (other than in the second case by marriage) to forfeit or lose her status as a British subject,-*

-and so on. Now it seems to mo that would not confer on the woman who had *been an alien and had become a British subject by marriage the right of voting if her husband were not living, because she is no longer a married woman.


Robert Laird Borden: I see my hon. friend's point and I will make a note of it. We shall be very glad if any other hon. gentleman 'has any observations to make upon this Bill so that we may get the benefit of the wisdom of the Committee.
Mr- NICKLE: While upon this subject, take the last part of the section dealing with minors. As I understand it a minor becomes a British subject if, during the period of being a minor, the father being an alien becomes naturalized, and on attaining majority the minor does nothing to deprive himself or herself of the citizenship attained. The last part of paragraph (c) says that :a woman can vote and can attain British citizenship by virtue of the naturalization of her father, but she must produce a certificate from the Court that she has lived sufficiently long in the country to entitle her, in her own right, to become a British subject. The child might have lived outside the country and have attained British citizenship by virtue of the naturalization of the father but she would not have the qualification required by the Naturalization Act entitling her to be naturalized if the father had never been naturalized. What is the dbrject sought in this? Is the object fo the Bill to confer on a minor the right to vote by virtue of the father's naturalization, or must the naturalization of the minor be under such circumstances that she could have attained) it if she applied on her own initiative?


Robert Laird Borden: Of course no woman can Obtain thd right to vote unless she is already a British subject. When she comes with her application to put her name on the electoral list she must show that she has the qualifications which would at that time have entitled her to become a British subject if she had not become technically such by the naturalization of her father.


Samuel Hughes: Take the case of daughters of aliens over twenty-one years of age, though the father becomes naturalized, yet the daughter, being over twenty-one, must also become naturalized.


Robert Laird Borden: They can become naturalized and make the necessary application.


John Allister Currie: Is this Act intended to amend the War-times Elections Act?


Robert Laird Borden: The Bill provides that it shall be construed as one with the Dominions Election Act and with the Wartimes Elections Act. According to the tenor of its provisions it is therefore in amendment of both.


Wilfrid Laurier: The War-times Elections Act is to be repealed.


Robert Laird Borden: This legislation will operate until it is repealed.


Mr. ERNEST LAPOINTE:: Against such legislation as this I would certainly have entered objection at a previous session, because I have some difficulty in making up my mind as to the desirability of granting the franchise to women in Canada. I am bound to admit there is a very strong public sentiment in favour of this legislation in various parts of the country, but no such demand exists in the province from which I come. The women of my province do not want to vote and are not asking for the right. I respect very much those women who believe they are entitled to have a voice in the settlement of great national questions in which they are vitally interested, and I understand such a claim when coming from women who are earning a living for themselves and families. They are a great deal more entitled to the franchise than the society women who are so insistent in their demands for it. Then there is the sentiment of those other women-I believe they constitute 'the majority of the women of Canada-who feel that their exalted position as queens of -their homes cannot but suffer if they meddle in our political battles, who feel that the duties of motherhood require all their devotion and all their energies, and who are quite willing to leave to the men the troubles and responsibilities of political administration. But, (by all means, if women are to vote in some -parts of the country they should vote in all other parts of the country as well. It is true that the fact that the women of some provinces would vote, while the women of other provinces would not, would materially affect the representation in this House, but the total number of women's votes in any province on any big question, when numbers are computed, -might have such an influence as to militate against any discrimination in the electoral law of the country.
The -second reason I have for supporting the Bill is that it may prevent the recurrence of wh-at took place -at the last election,



when the 'Government, ibefore appealing to the people, gave the franchise to a certain class of Canadian women-a class of women who were supposed to he easily carried away by the campaign the Government had in store for them-and refused it to others.
I believe that such a thing must he prevented in the future. Any Government might otherwise be at liberty, under the pretense of settling great national or imperial questions, to select their own judges, to have their case decided by a sort of family jury. Certainly this must be prevented, and if this Act will be a means of preventing that I certainly shall waive all the objections which I should otherwise urge against it, and shall favour its passage in order that any future manipulation of the franchise may toe done away with.


Mr. CAHILL :: Why should there be any reference to the War-Time Elections Act in this Bill? As I understand the WarTime Elections Act, or that small part of it that is understood by any person, it disfranchised alien enemies at. the last election and gave the franchise to women who were relatives of soldiers.
5 p.m. If this Act is to confer the franchise on women who are British subjects, what is the purpose of providing that the War-Time Elections Act shall apply? Is it with the view of disfranchising some of these women at a later date?


Robert Laird Borden: Without the enactment of this measure,' under the WarTime Elections Act certain women only would have the right to vote. This Act is to be read with the War-Time Elections Act and if any by-election or general election should hereafter be held, under the Mar-Time Elections Act, all women as defined in this Bill would have the right to vote.


Frank S. Cahill: Is it not the intention of the Bill that all women shall have the right to vote?


Robert Laird Borden: Yes.


Frank S. Cahill: Then I do not understand how the War-Time Elections Act can in any way affect future elections held under this Act.


Robert Laird Borden: The War-Time Elections Act by its terms is operative only during a certain period. While it is operative or after it is operative all women as defined by this measure are to vote. Therefore, this Bill is to be read as one with the War-Time Elections Act and is

also to be read as one with the Dominion Elections Act, so that under whichever Act an election takes place, women as defined in this Act shall have the right to vote.


Mr. EULER:: Does not section 2, which states that the Act shall be considered as one with the War-Time Elections Act, particularly call into operation that part of the War-Time Elections Act which disfranchises citizens of alien enemy birth naturalized within the last fifteen years? If so, are not the wives of those disfranchised citizens thus also disfranchised? The point I should like to make-in this one should have the sympathy of every member of the House, notwithstanding what took place at the last election-is that under this Act, with the Conscription Bill in force, the mothers of men who are fighting at the front in the Canadian army may be disfranchised. Under the Wartime Elections Act it was provided that even, those who' were of alien enemy birth should hot 'be disifranehised if they had a son ,at the front. I think it was provided! that the son should not be of age at the time of the election, but I am not sure about that. Under this Act, unless it is amended, it is quite possible that those who have been called to the colours under the provisions of the Military Service Act may find that their mothers, although good Canadian citizens, will be disfranchised because they happen to be of alien enemy birth.


Robert Laird Borden: It is not the intention of this measure to take the franchise from, any one Who would be entitled to it under the War-time Elections Act. My bon. friend asks further whether the provisions with respect to women, who- have sons serving at the front would apply also to women under this Bill. I shall make a -note of that and inform my hon. friend at a later date.


Jacques Bureau: If I understand this Bill aright, it is not the intention of the Government to- give the women, a wider franchise than the men have at present?


Robert Laird Borden: I am afraid that this Bill does go that length.


Jacques Bureau: Of course, it is not because my right toon, friend threatened me the other day with the vengeance of the women's votes that I want to make this remark.


Robert Laird Borden: Oh, I did not
threaten my hon. friend; I told him what might have been the re,suit.


Jacques Bureau: That is -worse than a
threat. I do not think the (women ought to have a wider franchise than the men. Take the case, for instance, of an American coming across the line and marrying a Canadian girl. She goes to the poll and votes, while her husband who escorts her there is turned away and cannot vote-


Robert Laird Borden: Why should
not that woman have the right to vote?


Jacques Bureau: Perhaps we do not see
things quite the .same way; our mentality may not be the same. |We certainly do not see everything from the same angle, as was shown in the last election, and that matter might he thrashed out in this House before we get through. Cases such as I have mentioned may bring disunion into the family.


Ernest Lapointe: May lead to the
divorce court.


Jacques Bureau: Yes, and divorces may
be made easier after a while. I saw cases in the last election where a family became disunited over voting. Take another case. In the province of Quebec a man must earn a certain amount a year before he can vote, and I think that is a fair provision. When- election day comes round that man who .has worked hard all his life and has been a good citizen may find himself in an old man's home, while the old lady, living just across the street, will be brought out to vote. I say that is unfair to these old men. If we had universal suffrage it would he alright, but I certainly do not think a woman, should have the right to vote when her husband has not that right. I think these three cases I have mentioned should 'be looked into. I do not want to be .accused of being egotistical. I may say \ that even at my age I do not fear the woman's vote, hut I do not want to see a woman vote when the master of the house has not that right. I think her title to vote should be subject to her husband having the right to vote.


Robert Laird Borden: 
Samuel Hughes: I think the
tenor of the discussion will lead the Prime Minister to see the necessity of adopting the suggestion of the hon. member for North Perth and having the Bill put in a concise form, eliminating all reference to other Acts. I am a fairly patient man, and I had a lot of good lawyers around me. interpreting the last Dominion Elections Act, but I never met two lawyers yet who agreed on it. I hope that the suggestion of my hon- friend from North Perth will be followed. To my hon. friend from Three Rivers and St. Maurice (Mr. Bureau), I may say. that I have yet to see in this Dominion very many men who go to the poorhouse on account of their wives.


Jacques Bureau: I must protest against such a construction of my remarks. I think just the contrary; very often it is the wife who has kept her husband from the poor-house.	.


Robert Laird Borden: Then she should have the right to vote.


Samuel Hughes: Thousands of women are supporting idle, drunken husbands, and these women are deprived of the franchise while the lords of creation stmt about and control the elections. By all means give the women the vote.


Robert Laird Borden: before Parliament all the relevant provisions that must be taken into account when the lists are made up. That would involve, in the first place, every provincial Act in the Dominion from one end to the other that bears upon the franchise, and if the suggestion were carried out to the full, it would also involve embodying in this Act the Dominion Elections Act, and the War-time Elections Act. We shall, however, take into the best consideration possible the suggestions that have been -made, and see whether we can work out something that will meet the views of hon. gentlemen who have raised these points-


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I should like to bring to the notice of the Prime Minister the provision in paragraph (c) of subsection (2) in reference to the obtaining of certificates from a court of record or from a judge. That provision is going to work a great deal of hardship and expense. The Prime Minister knows that women cannot, as a rule, go before a court of record; judges do not care to have their courts swarming with women looking for certificates, and somebody else will have to get these certificates for them. But there is a worse feature than tnat. I can only -speak for the constituency from which I come, but in my county there is a -large section which is about eighty or one hundred miles away from a courthouse, or from any place where there, is a judge, and it would be practically a physical impossibility for these women to get their certificates as provided in the Act. I do not see why any woman who is making application to be put on the list should not have the opportunity of satisfying the board, or whatever it may be, that she is qualified in every way under the Act, without being put to the expense and inconvenience of going before a judge for this certificate. There is no machinery -here by which she 'can satisfy the judge that she is entitled to the certificate, and she should be in a position to appear before the court and satisfy the j udge in that regard. There must he some procedure by which the judge is to be satisfied that she is entitled to the certificate. The Act is silent on that point, and a judge would be at a loss to know how he was to proceed to grant a certificate. When the Prime Minister is talking about the War-time Elections Act, as I happened to escape from its machinations as by fire, I have no particular spite against it, but let me warn the Prime Minister, that this War-times Election Act stands away beyond anything that ever visited Egypt in its darkest days, and that those frogs, and
fSir Robert Borden.]
other plagues of Egypt sink into insignificance compared with the terrors and dreads of the War-times Election Act. I would like to tell the Prime Minister that in the dear old province of Nova Scotia we are the best and -simplest people in the world, and have got along for seventy or eighty years with the well-understood Franchise Act, where everybody gets- his name on the list, and there is no trouble about it, and I woul-d like to warn him that he is going to leave a veTy dark blot upon- his name in that fair province, where he stands high and well to-day, if he introduces a measure -similar to the War-time Elections Act, to create strife, dissension and dissatisfaction.
Hon. A. L. SIFT-ON: I was rather surprised- that the hon. gentleman- (Mt. McKenzie) who has had some experience on the bench, should imagine that judges have any objections at alll to women calling at their chambers, I have had some experience myself along that line, and I neveT heard of any objection being raised by any o-f the members of tbe ben-ch in Canada until today.
-Mr. McKENZIE : I was objecting to too many at the same time.


Air. SIFTON:: I agree thoroughly in
regard to that, but if there is anything in this Act that would allow more than one lady to come to the chambers at one time, it certainly -should be eliminated. But this paragraph was- put in- for the -purpose of providing that, under no circumstances, will a female foreigner be able to vote without having the same qualifications as a male foreigner. There -are hundreds and thousands of cases of women -attaining -the age, and becoming British -subjects by the naturalization of their fathers, who have only been a -few -months in the country. It may seem an -anomaly to -those who have been in the habit of thinking that you had to remain three or five years in the country to become naturalized, but thi-s clause was for the purpose of meeting the special case of people who had not spent any length of time in the country, but who were still naturalized British -subjects. Thousands of foreigners have come to this country, leav-. ing their families -at home. They have ^pent the nece-s-s-ary three or five years in the country, and their families being minors, bave arrived a short tune before they became naturalized. Those families became British subjects two or three .months after their arrival in the country. There -are thousands of cases of that kind in Canada at the present time, people who 'became

British subjects without having spent the necessary time here, and although in some respects it is necessary, in training an Act ot this kind,, to give women additional powers over their brothers or their husbands in regard to this, there is no reason why, ilf you -are making a new Act -and taking in- a new class- of people, you should go back to- the anomalies that have bothered the different provinces and the Federal Government in regard -to elections for -many years. The franchise has grown, and it has grown gradually, and conditions have arisen and been met in various places, tout if you are making.a new Act -for the purpose of enfranchising a new class of people, there is no reason why you should not exercise a little common- -sense, and try and make it as fairly equal as possible. One thing was mentioned as an additional advantage given to women over men toy reason of the fact that they would be entitled to vote as British subjects if -they had spent three months in- the constituency. This gets over an -absurdity. In all the elections that have taken place for years there has been this difficulty: that a man might move from Quebec to Manitoba, or from Ontario to Saskatchewan a few months before an election -and lose his vote. Thousands of such cases have occurred in- former elections where good British-horn subjects of the Eastern provinces have Ibeen deprived of the franchise that they have had for years. It was the intention of this Act to cut out the anomaly, so far as women were concerned, and as soon as an- amendment is -made to the Dominion Franchise Act it will toe cut out, I think, -as far as the men are concerned, so that if they dive three months in -a Dominion constituency and are British subjects they would be entitled to cast their votes.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: The remarks of the hon. Minister of Customs (Mr. Sifton) confirm me in the opinion which I have held since this Bill was introduced. Why should not the Dominion Elections Act toe so amended as to include under the word ''elector" the word ''female," and then extend the qualifications of an elector to the female as well as to the male?


Robert Laird Borden: That is what this Act does.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: But it is a separate Act. We are beginning -to have too many Acts dealing with the franchise. My right hon. friend (Sir Robert Borden) has made some remarks respecting the War-time Elections Act. I cannot say that -personally I suffered a great dead bv the War-time ,Elections Act,.
We have in the county which I represent, honest men on both sides, Conservative as well as Liberal, and we never suffer from any dishonesty or disorganization in elections. Each time questions were asked respecting the franchise, it became necessary to take up the Dominion Elections Act, the Soldiers Vote Act, and the Wartime Elections Act. In future elections we will have to take up the Dominion Elections Act, the War-time Elections Act-I hope not the Soldiers Vote Elections Act, because I trust the war will be over-and this new Act entitled "An Act to confer the electoral franchise on women"; whereas, the Dominion Elections Act could be amended in a very -simple way to include -these different provisions.


Arthur Lewis W. Sifton: The only objection to that would -be that it would not become law until the War-time Elections Act was repealed, and that would deprive the women of -the possibility, in case of a by-election, of their votes. Another objection would be that there would he no provision for getting them on the list. The only provision there is -for putting them on the li-st is in -the War-time Elections Act.


Mr. COCKSHUTT:: I am in accord
generally with the provisions of the Bill, and desire to congratulate the Prime Minister on redeeming his promise to bring down a Bill of this kind so early in the session. I think it will he met- with favour throughout the Dominion of Canada, and the general principle has been accepted by a large number of the -provinces, though our friends down by the sea are not moving quite as rapidly as Ontario and the West. There is one matter which I wish to speak about, which I do not see provided for here. Every male citizen who has the right to vote has the chance of becoming a candidate provided he will put up $200 and -get the necessary nomination papers and so on. I do not know whether it is the intention of the Prime Minister that ladies hereafter will be eligible candidates for the Dominion Parliament or not. Whether that follows as a -matter of course, or whether other special requirements will have to be complied with, I am not quite clear. Therefore, I would like the Prime Minister to say whether this is really enfranchising them and putting them on an equality with men in all respects, and if it is qualifying them to become candidates at the next election, or earlier, if there is any byelection; or whether they must be permitted through some other legislation to

become candidates for the Dominion Parliament. I know that some of the more advanced of the women's franchise clubs believe that women should be on a full equality with men, if not a little more so, I think the hon. member for Three Rivers and St. Maurice (Mr. Bureau) put it very well when he said that if we give them full equality we should not extend the right to vote farther than we extend it to men. I do not understand from these provisions that that is the intention of the measure, though it may in a few cases work out that way. But it is very important that we should know whether or not women shall be eligible as candidates for the Dominion Parliament. My hon. friend from South Perth (Mr. Steele) asks me what I think. I do not intend to express myself just now on that point. If I were going to run I would rather run against two men than against one woman. This is a question that cannot be downed without an answer, and if the Prime Minister is prepared to give an answer to it I would be very glad to hear it.


Robert Laird Borden: It would require the amendment, I think, of another Act. This is merely a franchise Act. As far as the general principle is concerned, I shall imitate the prudent reserve of my hon. friend (Mr. Cockshutt) who has just spoken.


Wilfrid Laurier: There is an exception, which has probably been made after consideration, and it is this:
Provided, however, that this paragraph shall not apply to the wife of an alien enemy.
Has this been considered?


Robert Laird Borden: As I understand it the Bill provides that a woman who marries an alien shall not thereby lose her right to vote, but that this paragraph shall not apply to the wife of an alien enemy.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER. As to this I would have to make the same objection as that which we made on this side of the House to certain provisions of the War-Time Elections Act. The term " alien enemy '' may be made elastic. The alien enemies that we have at the present time are three in number-Germany, Austria and Turkey. If I remember aright I think the exclusion which was made of alien enemies


Robert Laird Borden: I am afraid my right hon. friend misunderstands the Act. If he would allow me to correct him, I would, say that an alien is not entitled to vote. A woman who was, at the time of
fMr, Cockshutt.]
her marriage, a British subject does not lose her right to vote toy marrying an alien. But she does lose her right to vote if she marries an alien enemy, who is a person born in an enemy country and who has not yet toeen naturalized.


Wilfrid Laurier: I understand
that. If ehe marries a Swede she marries an alien, tout she does not lose her right to vote?


Robert Laird Borden: Yes.


Wilfrid Laurier: If she marries an Austrian she loses her right to vote?


Robert Laird Borden: If he has not
been naturalized.


Wilfrid Laurier: We have encouraged immigration to this country. The Austrians that we have in this country are Slavs; they are not Germans. There are very few German immigrants in Canada. You are preventing .a union between a Canadian woman and a Slav. The purpose that we should have in connection with immigration 'is the unification of races as far as .possible, and nothing is better calculated to toring that about than intermarriage. * Why should you prevent a woman, if she wants to marry a Slav ot an Austrian, from marrying him?


John Allister Currie: She is not prevented from marrying him.


Wilfrid Laurier: 
Robert Laird Borden: My right hon.
friend will observe that a considerable departure is made toy the section to which he alludes, because a woman is given the right to vote by that provision although technically within the eye of the law She is an alien and not a British subject. We have thought it wise to go that far for the ,rea-

son that a woman who was a natural bom subject in the first place might very reasonably foe permitted to vote although she has technically lost her British nationality by marrying an alien. We thought it desirable to stop at that point and to prevent a woman voting who has married an alien enemy.


Samuel Hughes: Supposing a woman marries an Austrian, or a man of alien birth who has become naturalized, her marriage does not disqualify her?


Robert Laird Borden: No.
Progress reported.


IMMIGRATION AND COLONIZATION.
[Stage Direction]
On motion of Sir Robert Borden, Bill No. 11, respecting the Department of Immigration and Colonization, was read the second time and the House went into Committee thereon, Mr. Boivdn in the Chair.
On section 3-Deputy Minister.-Clerks, etc.,
Wilfrid Laurier: Has a deputy minister been appointed yet?


Robert Laird Borden: There has been no deputy appointed yet.


Wilfrid Laurier: Has the department been organized as yet?


Robert Laird Borden: It has been organized to this extent, that the minister is conducting the department and he has taken over those officials of the Interior Department whose duties were concerned with immigration and colonization. He has not found it necessary as yet to appoint a deputy minister.


The CHAIRMAN:: Shall I report the Bill?


Wilfrid Laurier: Before you
report the Bill, I should like to ask the hon. minister if, before taking up the third reading, he will bring down a list of the officers who have been taken over from the Interior Department into his department.


Mr. CALDER:: I shall foe very glad to
do that.


Charles Murphy: Would it be possible at the same time, to have a statement explaining what actions are confirmed as provided in section 5?


Robert Laird Borden: That merely relates to ordinary administrative actions so far as I understand.
iMr. MURPHY:	A statement of those
could be brought down.


James Alexander Calder: There is no statement of that kind. I might say that the Immigration Branch was a very distinct section of the Interior Department, andJ its whole personnel has been moved over. None of the officials attached to any other part of the Interior Department have been taken over with the Immigration Branch. The Immigration Branch was a body of itself within the Interior Department, and that branch has now simply become a department of the public service. I do not know of any particular information that I can bring down in connection with section 5. If the hon. member for Russell (Mr. Murphy) desires any particular information, and will let me know the nature of it, I shall only be too glad to bring it down to the House.


Charles Murphy: What I would like to know is what I am "confirming" by voting for that section?
Sir ROBERT BORDEN. All that section means is this: the department has been created by Order in Council, and the minister has been discharging his duties, that is to say, he has taken over this branch from the Department of the Interior. Since its establishment he has engaged in the usual administrative acts in respect of immigration which would otherwise have devolved upon the Minister of the Interior. It is merely designed to sanction his acts in that respect.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: involves the expenditure of a dollar except for the purposes of war, we are establishing this new department with all that it involves. I remember well, when the present Acting Minister of Finance (Mr. A. K. Maclean), as the financial critic on this side of the House, before he struck the trail for Damascus, was loud in his criticism as to the expenditure in conneet;on with these departments, but now he is not satisfied evidently with all the money he tan spend in the old departments, but must create new ones in order to have fresh fields for his new zeal as a convert to the faith of hon. gentlemen on the other side. I think it is only fair to the country, and fair to the Government, that it should be pointed out that we have had no explanation why this new department was created. It has not been explained to this House in any way whatsoever why the Department of the Interior was not able to look after this busi-ness* It would appear to me the trouble was this: the Prime Minister wanted a new government; he wanted to take in new blood, and he would not take it in without making places for it, and his heart was too tender, he was too much attached to his dear old friends of the dear old times to have them removed, and therefore he took his carving knife and began to cut and carve the departments in order to make room for his friends. That is the only necessity that I can see. I do not think that is any justification. In the old land, when like circumstances arose, Premier Asquith made room for new blood by, getting some of his old ministers to go out. There is no record in Great Britain where any department was out in two to provide new portfolios. But here, whenever anybody was put out, it was done in a way in which almost anvbodv would like to go out. The ex-Minister of Marine and Fisheries, Hon. Mr. Hazen, for instance, became chief justice of the province of New Brunswick at a salary of $7,000 .a year, a very high position indeed. Almost anybody would be willing to go out under conditions of that kind. And going right down through the list, that is the sort of sacrifice that has been made by hon. gentlemen who left the Government. I strongly protest against this creation or splitting of departments when the business of the country does not require it, merely for the purpose of feathering a nest for foreign birds that wish to go into the Government.
Bill reported.


THE ROYAL ASSENT.
[Stage Direction]
A message was delivered by Colonel Ernest J. Chambers, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:
Mr. Speaker, the Deputy of His Excellency, the Governor-General desires the immediate attendance of this Honourable House in the Chamber of the Honourable the Senate.
Accordingly the House went up to the Senate.
And having returned,
The Speaker informed the House that the Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General had been pleased to give, in His Majesty's name, the Royal Assent to the following Bill:
Bill No. 18,-An Act for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of the financial year ending the 31st March, 1919.

[Stage Direction]
Sir ROBERT BORDEN presented the following report of the Special Committee appointed to prepare report with all convenient speed lists of members to compose the Select Standing Committees of the House during the present session:
No. 1.
ON PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS. Messieurs :
Armstrong (York), Blake,
Boys,
Buchanan,
Bureau,
Cannon,
Carvell,
Copp,
Crothers,
Davidson,
Demers,
Devlin,
Doherty,
Douglas (Strathcona), Fripp,
Guthrie,
No
Jacobs,
Keefer,
Lapointe (Kamouraska) Lemieux,
McCoig,
McIntosh!
McKenzie,
McMaster,
Meighen,
Mowat,
Nickle,
Porter,
Reid (Mackenzie), Sifton,
Tweedie, and Vien.-32.
. 2.

[Stage Direction]
Messieurs :
Ames (Sir Herbert), Anderson,
Andrews,
Archambaui t, Armstrong (Lambton) Arthurs,
Ballantyne,
Blair,
Bonnell,
Boyer,
Boys,
Bristol,
Buchanan,
Bureau,
LanetOt,
Lapointe
(Kamouraska), Lapointe
(St. James), Lavigueur,
Leduc,
Lemieux,
Lesage,
Mackie (Edmonton), Mackie (Renfrew), Maclean (York), MacNutt,
McCoig,

Cahill,
Calder,
Cannon,
Carvell,
Casgrain,
Chabot,
Charlton,
CLark (Red Deer), Clements,
Cochrane,
Cockshutt,
Cooper,
Copp,
Crowe,
Cruise,
Currie, d'Anjou,
Davidson,
Davis,
Dech£ne,
Delisle,
Devlin,
Doherty,
Douglas
(Strathcona), Douglas
(Cape Breton), Edwards,
Elkin,
Ethier,
Fafard,
Fielding,
Fontaine,
Fournier,
Fraser,
Fripp,
Gauvreau,
Guthrie,
Harrison,
Hay,
Henders,
Hepburn,
Hocken,
Hughes (Sir Sam), Kay,
Keefer,
Lalor,
McCrea,
McCurdy,
McGregor,	.
McKenzie,
McLean {Royal), McQuarrie,
Maharg,
Manion,
Marcile (Bagot), Marshall,
Martin,
Merner,
Middlebro,
Molloy,
Morphy,
Mowat,
Murphy,
Nesbitt,
Nicholson
(Queens),
Nickle,
Pardee,
Pelletier,
Porter,
Power,
Richardson,
Savard,
Shaw,
Sheard,
Simpson,
Smith,
Stevens,
Stewart,
Sutherland, Thompson (Weyburn), Thomson
(Qu'Appelle), Trahan,
Tudhope,
Turriff,
Vien,
Wallace,
Wilson
(Wentworth), Wilson (Saskatoon), and Wright.-114.
And that the Quorum of the said Committee do consist of Twenty-five Members. *
Fulton,
Gauthier,
Glass,
Green,
Guthrie,
Sifton,
Steele,
Thompson (Hastings), Tobin, and Wigmore.-58.
And that the Quorum of the said Committee do consist of Ten Members.
No. 4.
ON STANDING ORDERS. Messieurs :
Armstrong (Lambton), McGibbon
(Argenteuil), Mclsaac,
McLeod,
Marcile (Bagot),
Mayrand,
Michaud,
Paul,
Seguin,
Steacy,
Turgeon,
Verville,
Wallace,
Wigmore, and Wright.-3*0.
Brien,
Burrell,
Butts,
Chabot,
Clarke (Wellington),
Cruise,
Deslauriers,
Doherty,
Euler,
Gervais,
Griesbach,
Hartt,
Maclean (York ),
MaoNutt,
McGibbon (Muskoka),
And that the Quorum of the said Committee do consist of Seven Members.
[Stage Direction]
No. 5. ON PRINTING.
Messieurs :
Bowman,
Brouillard,
Buchanan,
Burnham,
Cardin,
Charters,
Clark (Bruce), Clarke (Wellington), Crowe,
Currie,
Fontaine,
Hocken,
Hughes (Sir Sam),
Keefer,
Maclean (Halifax), Michaud,
Murphy,
Prevost,
Reid (Mackenzie), Richardson,
Shaw,
Verville,
White (Victoria), and Wilson
(Wentworth).-24.
[Stage Direction]
No. 3. ON MISCELLANEOUS PRIVATE BILLS.
Messieurs:
Ames (Sir	Herbert),	Harrison,
Anderson,		Hocken,
Armstrong	(York),	Lafortune,
Ballantyne,		Mackie (Renfrew),
Ball,		McGibbon (Muskoka)}
Blair,		McLean (Royal),
Blake,		Marcil (Bonaventure)
Bourassa,		Martin,
Boyer,		Myers,
Boys,		Pacaud,
Brien,		Papineau,
Bureau,		Pardee,
Butts,		Parent,
Casselman,		Paul,
Charters,		Peck,
Cnonyn,		Power,
Douglas (Cape Breton),		Prevost,
DuTremblay,		Proulx,
Ethier,		Reid (Grenville ),
Euler,		Richardson,
Fortier,		Robb.
Foster (York),		Rowell,
Fraser,		Scott,
Fripp,		Sharpe,
No. 6.
ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS. Messieurs :
Allan,	McCrea,
Andrews,	McGregor,
Archambault,	Mclsaac,
Ball,	McKenzie,
Best,	McMaster,
Bonnell,	Maharg,
Boys,	Meighen,
Bureau,	Merner,
Calder,	Michaud,
Cannon,	Middlebro,
Carvell,	Morphy,
Chaplin,	Murphy,
Charters,	Nicholson (Algoma),
Chisholm,	Parent,
Copp,	Proulx,
Crerar,	Redman,
Crothers,	Reid (Grenville),
Crowe,	Scott,
Davidson,	Sheard,
Devlin,	Sifton,
Edwards,	Simpson,
Fripp,	Sinclair (Antigonish),
Fulton,	Spinney,
Gauvreau,	Thomson (Qu'Appelle),
[Stage Direction]
Green,	Tremain,
Jacobs,	Tudhope,
Lapointe	Turriff,
{Kamouraska),	Tweedie, *
Mackie (R enfreto ),	Verville,
Maclean (Halifax),	Vien, and
McCoig,	Wigmore.-61.
And that the Quorum of the said Committee do consist of Twenty-one Members.	
No. 7.	
ON BANKING AND COMMERCE.	
Messieurs :	
Allan,	Jacobs,
Ames (Sir Herbert),	Kay,
Argue,	Lang,
Baldwin,	Lavigueur,
Best,	Leduc,
Bristol,	L6ger,
Burnham,	Lemieux,
Calder,	Lesage,
Cardin,	Loggie,
Carvel 1,	Maclean (Halifax),
Casgrain,	McCurdy,
Chaplin,	McLeod,
Charlton,	McMaster,
Clark {Red Deer),	McQuarrie,
Clements,	Marshall,
Cockshutt,	Meighen,
Crerar,	Middlebro,
Cronyn,	Molloy,
Currie,	Nesbitt,
d'Anjou,	Nickle,
Davis,	Pacaud,
Dech£ne,	Papineau,
Demers,	Pardee,
Denis,	Porter,
Desaulniers,	Redman,
Deslauriers,	Sexsmith,
Douglas {Strathcona),	Sharpe,
DuTremblay,	Sinclair {Antigonish),
Edwards,	Steele,
Elkin,	Stevens?,
Fielding,	Stewart,
Finley,	Sutherland,
Fortier,	Tobin,
Foster (Sir George),	Tolmie,
Foster {York),	Trahan,
Gauthier,	Tremain,
Gladu,	Turriff,
Glass,	Tweedie,
Halladay,	Whidden,
Henders,	Wilson {Saskatoon),
Hunt,	-81.
And that the Quorum of the said Committee do consist of Twenty-one Members.	
No. S.	
ON AGRICULTURE	AND COLONIZATION.
Messieurs:	
Anderson,	Marcile (Bagot),
Armstrong {York),	Marshall,
Armstrong {Lambton)	, Mayrand,
Argue,	Merner,
Arthurs,	Molloy,
Baldwin,	Morphy,
Ball,	Myers,
Best,	MacNutt,
Blair,	MoCoig,
Bourassa,	MoCrea,
Bowman,	McCurdy,
Boyce,	McGibbon {Muskoka),.
Brien,	McGregor,
Brouillard,	McIntosh,
Burrell,	Mclsaac,

Cahill,	McLean {Royal),
Casselman,	McLeod,
Chisholm*	Nicholson {Queens),
Clark {Red Deer),	Nicholson {Algoma),
Clarke {Wellington)	, Paul,
Crerar,	Proulx,
Cruise, '	Read {Prince),
Davis,	Reid {Mackenzie),
Delisle,	Robb,
Denis,	Savard,
Desaulniers,	Seguin,
Douglas (Strathcona), Sexsmith,	
Edwards,	Shaw,
Finley,	Sifton,
Fournier,	Simpson,
Fulton,	Sinclair {Antigonish),
Gervais,	Smith,
Glass,	Spinney,
Halladay,	Stacey, .
Hay,	Steele,
Henders,	Sutherland,
Hughes (Sir Sam),	Thompson {Hastings),
Hunt,	Thompson {Weyburn),
Kay,	Thomson {Quf Appelle),
Knox,	Tolmie,
Lafortune,	Tremain,
Lanctot,	Truax,
Lang,	Wallace,
L6ger,	White {Victoria),
Mackie {Edmonton),	Wilson (Wentworth),
Maclean {York), Mahiarg,	Wright.-93.
And that the Quorum of the said Com-	
mittee to consist of	Twelve Members. No. 9.
ON MARINE	AND FISHERIES.
Messieurs :	
Butts,	Munson,
Campbell,	McIntosh,
Cardin,	McKenzie,
Chisholm,	McQuarrie,
Clark {Bruce),	Nicholson, {Queens),
Clements,	Pelletier,
Fielding,	Read {Prince),
Gladu,	Rowell,
Hartt,	Sinclair (Antignoish ),
Hay,	Spinney,
Lang,	Stevens,
Lapointe {St. James), Trahan,	
Ldger,	Truax,
Loggie,	Tudhope,
Manion,	Turgeon,
Martin,	Wigmore.-32.
And that the Quorum of the said Committee	
do consist of Ten Members. No. 10.	
* ON MINES	AND MINERALS.
Messieurs :	
Arthurs,	[DOT]Lalor,
Blake,	Lemieux,
Bonnell,	Loggie,
Burrell,	Marcil {Bonaventure),
Cahill,	McMartin,
Campbell,	Nesbitt,
Cochrane,	Nicholson {A Igoma ),
Cockshutt,	Pacaud,
Dechene,	Pelletier,
Denis,	Prevost,
Fortier,	Reid1 {Mackenzie),
Green,	Sexsmith,
Harrison,	'Smith,
Hartt,	Tolmie, and
Knox,	White (Victoriaq.-cj.
And that the Quorum of the said Committee	
do consist of Ten Members.	

No. 11.
ON FORESTS,	WATERWAYS AND WATER-POWERS. Messieurs :
Argue,	Fraser,
Baldwin,	Halladay,
Bourassa,	Knox,
Bowman,	Mackie (Edmonton),
Boyce,	Manion,
Bureau,	Michaud,
Campbell,	Pacaud,
Carvell,	Parent,
Casselman,	Power,
Charlton,	Redman,
Cochrane,	Stewart,
Cooper,	Thompson (Hastings),
Ethier,	Thompson (Wey burn),
Fafard,	White (Victoria, Alta)
Finley,	Wilson
Foster (York),	( Saskatoon) -31.
And that the Quorum of the said Committee -do consist of Ten Members.
No. 12.
OFFICIAL* REPORT OF DEBATES. Messieurs :
Ballantyne,
Burnham,
Chabot,
Devlin,
Elkin,
Foster (Sir George), Kay,
Lemieux,
Marcil (Bonaventure), Mowat,
Munson,
McKenzie,
Nickle,
Richardson-14.
And that the Quorum of the said Committee do consist of Five Members.
No. 13.
ON THE LIBRARY. Messieurs :
Allan,
Andrews,
Borden (Sir Robert), Boyer,
Chaplin,
Clark {Red Deer), Cooper,
Copp,
Cronyn,
Crothers,
Foster (Sir George),
Lapointe
(Kamouraska), Laurier (Sir Wilfrid), Lemieux,
Meighen,
Myers,
Pardee,
Rowell,
Sheard,
Whidden-20.
Robert Laird Borden: Six o'clock.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Adjourn.


Wilfrid Laurier: There are a few Bills that have been printed, but nobody has had time to read them. I suggest to my right hon. friend that we Lave done a good day's work.


Robert Laird Borden: I had hoped that we might make some progress this evening. However, it is true that it is not a very long time since the Bills were printed and if my right hon. friend greatly desires it I shall consent to an adjournment now. 1 therefore move that the House adjourn.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and the House adjourned at six o'clock.
Monday, March 25, 1918.