1918-04-04

PRIVATE BILLS.


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 28, respecting The Belleville Prince Edward Bridge Company. - Mr. Porter.
Bill No. 29, respecting a patent of O. G.
0.	L. J. Overbeck.-Mr. Fripp.


Mr. SPEAKER:: ment concerned in order that they may advise as to the particular information which they require. If hon. members will communicate with the proper officers of the House before moving for returns, they can ascertain whether returns previously brought down cover the information which they desire. By exercising care in this respect hon. members can assist very materially in saving public money.



MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.


[Stage Direction]
On Motions being called:
Rt. Hon. Sir ROBERT BORDEN (Prime Minister):: As the Orders of the day may not be reached until rather late, I think it desirable that I should give to the House the information which I promised yesterday with regard to the recent very regrettable events in the city of Quebec.
The first document which I shall read is a summary of a number of communications which have been received from the military authorities in tile city of Quebec by telephone or by telegram. It is as follows:
Ottawa, April 2, 1918.
On 29th March information was received that on the previous night a clash had occurred between police and civilians at Quebec, in connection with the administration of the Military Service Act. It was reported that civilians had badly damaged' the police station, in which three detectives had taken refuge from the mob, and that one of them had been severely injured. The General Officer Commanding Military District No. 5 (Brig. General J, p. Landry) was called' upon for a full report and the Inspector General, Eastern Canada (Major General F. L, Lessard) was warned to hold himself in readiness to proceed to Quebec. Same day General Landry reported that there had been a disturbance that No. 3 Police Station had been stoned and1 wrecked, and that four men had been injured. The Mayor thought he could deal with the situation and that military asistance was not required. The Mayor was assured that military assistance in case of urgency was available, but he stated1 that he expected to be able to cope alone "with any outbreak. Reports were received from other sources throughout the afternoon and evening that the situation threatened to become more serious and the General Officer Commanding was ordered by telegram to work in cooperation with the civil power but in case of urgent necessity to act on his own initiative, avoiding a collision if possible. About 10 p.m. General Landry reported by telephone that the offices of the Quebec Chronicle had been attacked and that a large mob was destroying the Registrar's office. The Mayor had requested him to call out troops but as the requisition was not in order he (the Mayor) had left to obtain further signatures. As reports were of an alarming character General Landry asked for instructions. He was directed' to use his own

discretion and to take such action as he considered necessary to restore and preserve order. Accordingly the troops were ordered out. There was no clash and by 10.30 order had1 been restored, the annex of the Auditorium Building having been set on fire and the offices of the Chronicle having been wrecked.
About mid-day March 30, the G.O.C., M.D. 5 reported that situation was getting worse and he required 1,000 men additional to the 800 already available. Orders were at once issued to move the number of troops called for to Quebec, and General Lessard was directed to proceed from Halifax to Quebec, there to assume general command. On the night of the 30th there was further disorder; the mob was very unruly, the troops were ordered out, several soldiers were injured, and a hardware store was looted in search of arms.
On 31st a report was received that riots had broken out during the day, pickets were attacked on duty while removing arms and ammunition from the stores; two officers were injured, revolver shots were fired at a street car, and another store was looted in search of arms and set on fire. On this day General Lessaj-d arrived and assumed command.
On Monday, April 1st General Lessard took the precaution to cause notices to be placarded and published in the press advising the public against taking part in unlawful assemblies, pointing out the risk they ran of being killed or injured, if they did so, and notifying all concerned that the authorities, should necessity arise, would use every means at their disposal to maintain peace, and order. Citizens were at the same time warned not to leave their dwellings and not to mix with the rioters who were causing disturbance throughout the city.
At nightfall, however, in spite of the notices which had been published, a large crowd assembled ; and from house-tops, side-streets, snow banks and other places of concealment the rioters opened1 Are point blank on the troops who as on the previous nights displayed great steadiness, and forbearance under severe provocation. But at length, after several soldiers had received bullet wounds, it became absolutely necessary for the troops to return the fire-in self defence, for the protection of the public and to prevent the situation passing entirely beyond control.
Five soldiers were wounded, and of the crowd four were killed1, many were injured and fifty-eight were arrested.
By 1.20 o.m. next morning order load been re-established and by 5 a.m. the troops had returned to barracks.
We have information to-day that perfect order is still maintained in the city under military direction.
The next report is from Lieutenant-Colonel H. A. Machin, Director of the Military Service Branch. It is dated Ottawa, April 2, 1918, and is addressed to the Hon. the Minister of Justice, Ottawa::
Sir,
I have the honour to report that, in obedience to your instructions, I left Ottawa on Friday the 29th ultimo at 4.30 and proceeded immediately to Quebec, arriving there early the following morning. I was met by Captain Desrochers, the Inspector of Dominion Police, at that point.

This officer had suffered at the hands of the mob the previous evening and was still showing evidence of having 'been very severely handled.
It appears that on Thursday night, the 28th ultimo, two Dominion constables named Belanger and Evanturel were, in pursuance of their duties, searching for defaulters in St. Roeh, and visited a bowling alley where a young man named Mercier was asked to produce his exemption certificate or papers to show why he should not be in uniform. He stated that he had received a certificate of exemption but did not have it with him and that it was at his house. The police then took the young man to the police station, telling him that he would be released immediately when his papers were forthcoming. The certificate of exemption was sent for by a friend and afterwards produced and Mercier was liberated.
Shortly afterward, the Dominion Police to the number of fifteen were mobbed by a crowd which had gathered, it is stated, at a bowling alley in St. Roch which, it is alleged, was the headquarters for the agitators. The Dominion Police took refuge in No. 3 Municipal Police Station and the mob, which by this time had grown to very large numbers, possibly two thousand, proceeded to demolish the building and finally over-powered the Municipal Police who had refused the mob admission to the police station, seized about twelve of the Dominion constables and started to wreak their vengeance on them, seven or eight of whom were wounded, two quite seriously and Captain Desrochers himself being badly battered about. This affair lasted for nearly two hours during which time Captain Desrochers telephoned from the police station to the G. O. C. for a military escort to come to the rescue of the Dominion Police and take them away from the mob. Captain Desrochers was referred to the Mayor with whom he had previously been in touch and as a result the Mayor came to the police station and made a speech, but without effect, the crowd subsequently taking the action I have just related. The Municipal police at this station tried to keep the crowd out but lost control, mob rule resulting.
Captain Desrochers states that he requested the Chief of Police to call out all available Municipal police to the aid of the Dominion Police, who had sought refuge in No. 3 police station, but this was not done, twelve police only being placed on this duty and this number was not increased, although Captain Desrochers pointed out how inadequate this force was.
Captain Desrochers telegraphed the full facts here and by three o'clock on Friday the 29th ultimo, it was known here that an attack was contemplated on the Registrar's office at Quebec, that night. On my arrival in Quebec on Saturday the 30th ultimo, I found that the rumour had been carried into effect with the result that two newspaper offices had been wrecked and the Registrar's office had been set on fire. The contemplated action of the mob had been repeatedly communicated on Friday by Captain Desrochers to the Mayor and the G. O. C. Captain Desrochers informs me that no adequate protection was afforded by the Municipal authorities to save the Registrar's office and that a small force of the city police who had been placed in front of the Registrar's office were not only inadequate for its protection but were quiescent when the mob started to attack the place. On Friday the 29th ultimo, Captain Desrochers, although himself injured, remained all day at the Central
police station in company with the Chief of the City Police to whom he repeatedly urged that all available Municipal police be placed on duty, giving information as to the rumours which had reached him concerning the proposed attack on the Registrar's office. It is stated that a force of from sixty to seventy men might have been sufficient to have prevented, at the outset, the ransacking and burning of the Registrar's office. The Chief of the City Police received reports from patrolmen with the result that he persisted in his opinion that no trouble was to be anticipated and that Captain Desrochers was unduly alarmed. At eight p.m. on Friday the 29th ultimo, the Chief of Police being absent and supposed to be with the Mayor, a message was received' at the Central Police Station to the effect that a crowd was marching up from St. Roch to the Auditorium. This message was repeated over the telephone to the Mayor, Captain Desrochers being present when the telephone message was sent. The mob marched up town and back to St. Roch. Following this move, twelve police, all that had *been provided by the city police, were sent to the Auditorium. The crowd returned up town from St. Roch in very increased numbers and proceeded to smash the two newspaper offices, which were practically demolished. The crowd then proceeded to the Registrar's office at the Auditorium,-this would be about 9 p.m. Captain Desrochers telephoned the G. O. C. and informed him of the situation, when he was asked where the Mayor was. Apparently the G. O. C. contemplated that the Mayor would be at the scene of disorder. Captain Desrochers then went from the City Hall to the General Post Office and to Military Headquarters, and was there informed that the Auditorium had been attacked, the windows, etc., being smashed though the rioters had not then penetrated the building. After a short interview the G. O. C. succeeded in communicating by telephone with the Mayor, who immediately proceeded to Headquarters, where he was handed a prepared copy of the Riot Act, and requested to proceed to the scene of riot and read it. The Mayor left in company with the Chief of Police for the scene of the riot. It appears that the Mayor and Chief of Police, in their trip to Military Headquarters, had passed the Auditorium, as Captain Desrochers was informed by the Chief of Police that the crowd were then in the building and throwing the records into the street. Captain Desrochers is of the opinion that both the occurrences would have been avoided if the civic authorities had taken notice of his repeated warnings and a proper display of protection had been made by civic police as requested by him.
The facts as to what transpired between the military authorities and the Mayor must be obtained from the former as I have no knowledge of it other than hearsay. After the Registrar's office had been set on Are, the Are 'brigade were called out, but owing to the action of the mob in preventing the Aremen from performing their duties great damage was done to the building and records before the Are was brought under control.
After careful investigation I And that the greater portion of the most important records were saved, as they had been locked away in a back Aling room and were apparently overlooked by the mob, smoke and water being the cause of damage to these documents which with the exception of possibly one thousand names will be saved and from which new records can

be made up. All the office furniture, Chief Pulblic Representative's files and documents, stationery and supplies-in fact everything except the small filing room already spoken of- have been totally destroyed. Steps are now being taken to re-establish the Registrar's office at Quebec and I contemplate having this office in full working order at an early date.
As the lives and personal property of the Dominion Police had been threatened I instructed Captain Desroehers to have his men scattered and for the present to make no arrests. The work of the Dominion Police in Quebec, therefore, for the moment is suspended. Captain Desroehers informs me that there has been, since the commencement of activities by the Dominion Police, threats made against individual members of the force and what work they have been able to accomplish has been done in the face of a hostile attitude from practically every source.
I have the honour to be,
Sir.
Your obedient servant, (Sgd) H. A. Machin.
Director, Military Service Branch.



REPORTS AND PAPERS.

[Stage Direction]
Detailed statement of remissions of customs duties and the refund thereof, under section 92, Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act, through the Department of Customs, for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1917.-Hon. Mr. Sifton.
Detailed statement of all bonds or securities registered in the Department of the Secretary of State of Canada since last return (31st January, 1917) submitted to the Parliament of Canada under section 32 of chapter 19 of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1906.-Hon. Mr. Sifton.
Memorandum of conferences between representatives cf labour and the War Committee, January, 1918.-Hon. Mr. Rowell.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No'. 30, to incorporate a council for the Imdiami Tribe® of Canada-Mr. Porter-introduced and read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by asterisks).

Mr. POWER:: _
1.	Is the Quebec Harbour Commission owner of a steamship called the Courcelette?
2.	If so, when was this boat bought, fi-orn whom, and at what price?
3.	For what object was it bought?
4.	For what object has it been used?
5.	What was the number of persons who composed the crew in the months of July and August, 1917?
6.	What salary was paid to each?

7.	What excursions were made by the said steamer during the months of June, July and September, 1917?
JHon. Mr. BAiLLANTYNE:
1.	Yes.
2.	September 28th, 1916; Canadian Salvage Association Ltd.; $27,000.
3.	General service boat for inspection of port and harbour, and harbour works.
4.	Ais general service boat for inspection, of port and1 harbour, and harbour works.
5.	July, 13; August, first two weeks, 13,
2nd fortnight, 12.	v
6.	Captain $92.40; mate, $46.20; list engineer, $101.60; 2nd engineer, $65.30; fireman, $18; fireman', $23.25; fireman, $15; steward, $46.20; cook, $51.30; mess boy,' $11.25; sailor, $24.50; sailor, $24.50; sailor, $24.50.
7.	The boat was used for visiting the port of Quebec, two or three times by the commissioners and guests; twice by the Lieutenant-Governor and guests, three times by ministers of the Crown and guests; once by Mr. T. W. Lament, member of the firm J. P. Morgan & Co., to Moisie river at the request of the Department of Marine; expenses of this trip were paid by Mir. Lamont. It wais used in connection with the putting up of the Quebec bridge, and twice in connection with shipbuilding plant at Island of Orleans', and once visiting the harbour with Mr. K. Yamiagisihi, representative of the Mitsubishi Shipbuilding Company of Tokyo, Japan.


OLEOMARGARINE LICENSES.
Mr. LEDUC:: 1.	How many firms have asked for licenses for the manufacture of oleomargine?
2.	How many firms have been granted such licenses?
3.	What are the names of said firms?
4.	What are the names of shareholders?
5..Are the licenses limited?


Hon. Mr. CRERAR:: 1.	15.
2.	2.
3.	The Harris Abattoir Company., Ltd., and the Swift Canadian Co., Ltd., both of Toronto.
4.	The Department of Agriculture has no information.
5.	The licenses are not limited, the only conditions being eomformity to the law on the part of those holding them.


OTTAWA POSTMASTER.
Mr. PROULX:: 1.	What commission, if any, did Mr. A. G. Acres, Postmaster at the City of Ottawa, receive from the Government, for the purchase by him for the Government, of the land situate

on the North side of Wellington Street and on the West side of Bank Street?
2.	Did Mr. Acres, or the real estate company with which he was connected before being appointed Postmaster of Ottawa, ever act for the Government in connection with the purchase of any other property?
3.	Did Mr. Acres hold any position in the Militia of Canada, or in the Canadian Expeditionary Forces overseas?
4.	If so, what was the position, and1 what was the salary attached thereto?
5.	How much did he receive for allowance, living and travelling expenses?
8.	How long was he overseas?
7. Did he go to Prance? If so, how long was he there?


Hon. Mr. SIFTON:: 1.	$22,260.42.
2 No information.
3.	Yes.
4.	Hon. captain and paymaster, 77th Battalion, Canadian Expeditionary Force, with pay as follows: Regimental pay, $3 per diem.
5.	Field1 allowance, subsistence allowance and travelling expenses $867; separation allowance from 1st' August, 1915, to 31st December, 1916, at $40 per month $680.
6.	On strength overseas, three months and eleven days.
7.	No.


DISTRIBUTION OF FRUIT AND VEGETABLES.
Mr. GAUTHIER:: 1.	Has the Government appointed' an agent of Transportation to control a regular distribution of fruits and vegetables?
2.	If so, when was such appointment made?
3.	Who has been appointed to this 'position, and what is his salary and duty?
4.	Under the direction of which Department of the Government is he acting?


Hon. Mr. CRERAR:: 1.	Yes.
2.	On the 26th September, 1917, for a period of four months.
3.	H. H. Schaefer; $200 per month; to assist in the movement of the apple and potato crops.
4.	He is no longer in the employ of the Canada Food Board, his duty ceasing on the 26th January last.
CUSTOMS INQUIRY; NORFOLK COUNTY.


Mr. CAHILL:: 1.	Did the Customs Department, or any other Department of the Government, hold- an inquiry at Simcoe, or elsewhere in the County of Norfolk, at any time since January 1st last? If so, where, and on what dates?
2.	Was such inquiry the result of charges or of complaints made to the Government or to any Department thereof? If so, by whom were such charges or complaints made?
3.	Were the Dominion Canners involved in such inquiry or investigation? If so, were their books gone into ?
4.	Did such inquiry relate to Government contracts or drawbacks? If not, to what did it relate?
5.	What was the result of such inquiry?
6.	Was a report made? If so, to whom, and will the papers be brought down?


Hon. Mr. SIFTON:: 1.	Officers of customs held an inquiry at Simcoe on February 5th, 1918, and subsequent days.
2.	Confidential information received by the customs led to this inquiry.
3.	Yes. Their books were examined.
4.	The inquiry related to drawback claims of the Dominion Canners.
5.	The result of the inquiry was that some errors were found in the claims, and these were rectified.
6.	A report was made to the Department of Customs. The papers will be brought down as usual when ordered.


PROVINCIAL AND MUNICIPAL DEBENTURES.
Mr. TRAHAN:: 1.	Was the subject relating to the issue, sale and negotiation of provincial, municipal and other debentures, as set forth in the Order in Council dated 22nd December, 1917, considered by the Provincial Premiers of Canada and the Federal Government, at (.he Conference held at Ottawa, in February, 1918?
2.	If so, what was the deoision arrived at?
3.	If not, why was the subject not considered?


Robert Laird Borden: It is my impression that the report containing the conclusions of the conference has been laid on . the table of the House. The report contains all tlfe information available.


CONFERENCE OF PROVINCIAL PREMIERS AT OTTAWA.
Mr. TRAHAN:: 1.	Is it the intention of the Government to produce before this House copies of the proceedings of the Conference -held' at Ottawa, in February, 1918, between the Provincial Premiers of Canada and the Government; also, copies of the resolutions adopted and the remarks made in relation thereto?
2.	If not, why?
3.	If so, when will the said copies be produced?


Robert Laird Borden: The report has been laid on the Table, about two weeks ago, I think.


ARRESTS UNDER THE MILITARY SERVICE ACT.
Mr. TRAHAN:: 1.	Out of the 3,89-5 men arrested by the poHce in virtue of the Military Service Act, 1917, how many were arrested in each of the provinces and the Yukon Territory?

2.	Out of the 7,946 men enlisted in the United States, under the operation of the said Act, how many were from each of the provinces, and the Yukon Territory?
Major-General MEWBURN:
1. Following are the figures of men apprehended under the Military Service Act, divided into military districts:
Military District No.	1	
295"	"	"	2	
471"	"	"	3	
507"	"	"	4	
710"	"	"	5,	
108"	"	"	6	
292"	"	"	7	
105"	"	"	10	
447"	"	"	11.	
378"	"	' "	12	
405"	"	"	13	
177Total	3,895
Information is not available in this department as to how many were apprehended in the different provinces, except in so far as they are oo-terminous with the territorial limits of the districts.
2. No men have been enlisted in the United States under the operation of the Military Service Act.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS.

Mr. POWER:: 1.	Who are the commissioned officers employed at Quebec by the Military authorities in connection with Recruiting Branch, Army Service Corps, The Royal Canadian Engineers, The Royal Canadian Garrison Artillery and The Royal Canadian Artillery?
2.	How long have they been connected with each branch?
3.	What service is each of them performing?
4.	What' salary is each one of them receiving?
5.	Who are those among them who have performed service overseas and how long have they been actually at the front?
6.	How long were they in the trenches?
7.	To which battalion did' they belong when overseas ?


Mr. W. H. WHITE:: 1.	How many local tribunals were established throughout Canada under the Military Service Act?
2.	What remuneration per diem was allowed each member of such tribunal?
3.	What was remuneration per day for Secretary of tribunal and1 also for constables or caretaker of the Tribunal Sessional Chamber?
4.	What has been the total expenditure to date on account of tribunals under the Military Service Act?
5.	Are there any outstanding claims unpaid?
[Mr, Trahan. 1


Mr. MIDDLEBRO:: 1.	How many Victoria Crosses have been awarded to members of the Canadian Expeditionary Force to date?
2.	What is the name, address, battalion, and rank of each recipient?
3.	What is the official respective record in respect of which each decoration was given in each case?



UNOPPOSED MOTION FOR PAPERS.

Mr. TRAHAN:: For a copy of all judgments rendered up to date under the operation of the Military Service Act, 1917, by the Central Appeal Judge.



OLEOMARGARINE.


Mr. J. E. ARMSTRONG (E. Lambton) moved:: That, in the opinion of this House, the Order in Council governing the manufacture, importation and sale of Oleomargarine should be amended and more strictly enforced, in order that the great dairy industry of Canada should be adequately protected.
He said: I feel I should preface my remarks by stating my position on this question. I do not intend to oppose the manufacture, importation or sale of oleomargarine in Canada at the present time, but I shall endeavour to show hon. gentlemen that the regulations are of such a nature as to allow fraud and deception to to be perpetrated. I do not belidve that the ex-Minister of Agriculture , was responsible for these regulations. I am sure we all appreciate the efforts he put forth on behalf of agriculture, and I am satisfied that no man ever filled the portfolio of agriculture in the Dominion with greater satisfaction to the farmers and all interested in the farming industry than did the ex-minister. As to the present Minister of Agriculture, I am sure the people of Canada must feel deeply indebted to him for joining the Cabinet, and offering his services .in the development of our greatest industry. He, too, had nothing to do with the framing of these regulations, because they were already framed and placed before him a day or two after he took office. Tihe men who, in my opinion, were responsible for these regulations were the oleomargarine manufacturers in Canada .and the United States, and I think' I shall be able to show that the regulations are framed entirely in their interests. The' first Order was dated Tuesday, 23rd October, 1917, and the second clause of it reads:
For the purpose of these regulations, "oleomargarine" shall mean and include oleomargarine, margarine, butterine, or any other substitute for butter which is manufactured wholly

or in part from any fat other than that from jnilk and cream.
This opens the door, not only to oleomargarine but to margarine, butterine or any other substitute for butter. I do not believe that the dairymen of Canada understood that the Government intended to allow all kinds of butter substitutes to come into this country free. I respect-iully urge that the words to which I have called attention other than the word "oleomargarine," be struck out of these regulations, namely, the words, " margarine, butterine, or any other substitutes for butter which is manufactured wholly or in part from any fat other than milk or cream ". If you are going to allow margarine products to come into Canada, you open the door to a condition of affairs such as exists in the United States to-day. I.ast year there were over two thousand prosecutions in the United States having reference to the manufacture of oleomargarine, and over 4,000 men were summoned before the courts. This has been going on in the United States for years and years, and we have been very fortunate in Canada to be in a position not to permit this condition of affairs to exist. I will take the case of nut margarine. In the United States there are eleven different kinds of nut margarine manufactured. Not one of those products can be manufactured, as I understand, without introducing into it benzoate of soda, a most injurious constituent of food, in order that it may be preserved. Clause 5 of the regulations reads:	.
Oleomargarine shall not be manufactured in any premises used as or connected with a butter factory, and no butter manufacturer or any person who handles butter for the purpose of re-working or mixing it, shall be given a license to import or to manufacture oleomargarine.
It simply means that the butter manufacturers of the [DOT]country are forbidden in any way to take oleomargarine into their plants, or to take any of the oils to manufacture the products that are toeing used in the manufacture of oleomargarine. I am confident-and I speak for the dairymen of Canada-that they do not want privileges extended to them of using, in their process of manufacture, the oils that are mixed' in the oleomargarine,, tout, on the other hand, they ask that their industry toe surrounded with sufficient safeguards, so that th-eir products may toe reasonably protected. Clause 7 of the regulations reads:
No person other than a manufacturer of oleomargarine shall mix oleomargarine and butter.
On the one hand, while the butter manufacturers are not allowed in any way to mix the oils-, the oleomargarine men are allowed to import butter into their plants and mix it in any way they choose, [DOT]bring it in, as they have been doing, in a coloured state, and turn it out as a substitute for butter, -and make it as palatable as they possibly can. The dairymen do. not toelieve that it is reasonable or fair that the butter should toe taken into the margarine plants for the purpose of manufacturing an article which is supposed to be a substitute for butter, and which is [DOT]made palatable by the very Ibutter itself which is the product of the dairy farms of this country. Another clause to which I [DOT]wish to call the attention of the minister reads-:
In" all hotels restaurants and public eating houses where oleomargarine is used there shall be prominently displayed in some conspicuous place a placard containing the words "Oleomargarine served- here'' in capital black letters not less than one and one-half inches long.
I understand this clause is not toeing enforced in any way whatsoever, and that there are mighty few places that are carrying out the instructions laid down toy the minister in this regard. We are either going to enforce the regulations, or else we are going to do an untold amount of injury to the public and to the dairymen of Canada. Further, I wish to call the attention of the minister to the fact that the customs regulations allow oleomargarine to he imported into this country in a coloured form. I [DOT]hope the Minister of "Customs will undertake to instruct his officers in regard to the meaning of the word " tinted." The outcome is that this oleomargarine is coming in, and if they are allowed to use a -considerable amount of butter to make it palatable, then the butter is put into the oleomargarine in -the United [DOT] States to be shipped into Canada. The . dairymen of -Canada thought they had a protection of four -cents a pound on< butter coming into Canada from the United States, but in that regard this protection is largely wiped out, especially if - you allow them to mix the butter fat with the oleomargarine in the United States, colour it, and send it into Canada in that condition. I feel that these clauses of the regulations should receive the most careful attention of the minister, and I am sure they will.
Has the -minister taken into consideration the enormous number of inspectors that- would he required * to investigate the conditions in regard to the manu-



ESTIMATED DAIRY PRODUCTION IN CANADA 1917.

[Stage Direction]
Pounds.	Value.
Cheese	
192,000,00-0	$ 41,760,000Creamery Butter . .	74,000,000	31,080,000Dairy Butter . . . . 150,000,000	60,000,000Condensed Milk & Milk Powder.	8,000,000
Value of market milk and cream,
including ice cream	 50,000,000
Total Value

[Stage Direction]
1916.
Pounds.
Cheese	 180,733,426
Butter	 7,990,435
Condensed	Milk . .	15,858,622
* Estimated.
1917.
* Pounds. 174,000,000 3,709,392 30,000,000

This merely goes to show the enormous development and possibilities of this industry. The people have not a proper conception of the large capital involved in this industry. The dairymen have increased Canada's production of cheese by 45,000,000 pounds per year isince the war broke out. In 1917 the cheese commission handled for export 1,860,237 boxes of cheese, or 155,662,463 pounds. The cheese crop exported through the regular channels before the cheese commission began operations amounted to 123,909 boxes weighing 10,656,174 pounds. There are 15,000 boxes yet to be delivered, making a total exportable surplus for the year 1917 of about 2,000,000 boxes, or 172,620,000 pounds of cheese valued at $37,544,850, an increase of over $4,000,000 as compared with 1916. These figures cover only the cheese shipped to the United Kingdom; shipments to other countries amount to over 1,000,000 pounds. In addition to this the amount of consumption has greatly increased. In 1914 our exports amounted to 135,000,000 pounds, while to-day the export is 180,000,000 pounds, or an increase of 45,000,000 pounds over 1914.
I am giving these figures to show that the farmers have increased their production of these commodities, and that they have improved the standard of our dairy products very materially. The present price of cheese in Canada is surely very low when you take into consideration the fact that the products the farmer feeds to his cattle have doubled in price, that the price of cattle has more than doubled, and that labour cost has very materially increased. In addition to that, all the other expenses connected with the development of the industry have materially advanced. Cheese at the price at which it sells to-day is perhaps one of the cheapest food products you can find on the market. The dairymen of Canada have practically control of the cheese market of the United Kingdom. They have had control of this market for many years. They have been assisted year after year to develop their industry and to bring it up to the greatest possible perfection in order that they might be able to create a profitable market abroad. Are we justified in doing anything to retard its development? I do not think we are.
Then, let us consider the butter industry. The total production of creamery butter in 1916 was 82,534,130 pounds, valued 'alt $26,966,355, and the production of home made butter was 137,110,200 pounds, or 68 per cent of the total butter
production of 201,808,365 pounds. At fifty cents a pound this production has a value of $100,904,182.50. The price of fifty cents a pound has been criticised to some extent, it is true, but if the people of Canada will take into consideration the increased expenses in connection with the manufacture of butter, I am sure they will not consider the price very greatly in excess of what it ought to be. In 1900 we only produced 36,667,739 pounds of creamery butter, while in 1916 we produced 82.564,130 pounds. We exported to the United Kingdom in 1916, 7,121,468 pounds of butter. Previous to the war we imported enormous quantities of butter from Australia and New Zealand to supply our demand.
Now, within the last few years we are not only able to supply the amount required in Canada, but we have been able to expofit over 7,000,000 pounds of butter. The Minister of Agriculture remembers, no doubt, that not many years ago we were exporting butter to the north' west provinces from the eastern provinces. Now, things have changed, and butter is coming to the eastern provinces from the West, and is sent out to the markets of the world in enormous quantities, increasing in volume year after year. The statistics of the Trade and Commerce Department for February 1S16, page 34, give the value of milch cows at $274,081,(XX); and of other cattle at $270,595,000, making a total value of over $544,000,000. The increase in value of milch cows in three years is estimated at $76,000,000; the increase in the value of " other cattle " is given at $66,000,000; or a total increase of $142,000,000. The estimated number of milch cows in Canada is 2,666,846. We have 993 creameries in Canada, and 1,813 cheese factories, also 624 combined factories, making a total of 3,430. The patrons of these factories total 221,190. That means 221,000 families, or over one million people, engaged in the dairy business in Canada, with their cattle, bams, implements, cheese and 'butter factories, and all the appliances used in the operation of this industry. The Canadian exports of butter in February of this year, as compared with February, 1917, had increased from 50,000 pounds to 400,000 pounds; of cheese from 3,600,000 pounds to about 5,000,000 pounds; of eggs from 95,000 dozens to 134,000 dozens; of beef, from 1,500,000 pounds to 10,500,000 pounds; of bacon and ham. from 15,600,000 pounds to 16,150,000 pounds.
I quote these figures to show 4 p.m. the enormous development of the agricultural industry along
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these lines, and to indicate the care that the Government should use to see that no legislation is put in force that would interfere in any way with the wonderful development of this branch of commerce in our country.
We are calling for increased production. The farmers, I feel, have answered the call. The national cry is : "More beef and more 'bacon." The dairy industry of -Canada has been fostered for years Iby our farmers' institutes, our travelling dairies, our experimental farms, and toy the Dominion and -Provincial Governments, and it would toe nothing short of a calamity if, toy introducing legislation such as I have read, we were to discourage or to undermine to -any extent the development of this great industry. What would a few million pounds of oleomargarine amount to, if by bringing it into this country we permanently injure the great industry to which I have called attention.
We are teaching agriculture in the schools. Our agricultural colleges are rendering great assistance. Both are doing everything possible to develop the livestock industry. We have 'Ibetter farming trains," demonstration trains, district representatives, co-operative societies, printing and- publishing facilities, women's institutes, demonstration farms, experimental farms, and livestock associations-, all assisting in the development of the dairy industry. Therefore, I respectfully urge upon the Minister of Agriculture the need of investigating the suggestions I have placed before him, and of immediate action toeing taken to safeguard the public of Canada. When you give the dairy industry of Canada proper protective legislation, in regard to the importation, manufacture and sale of oleomargarine, you protect the public against being defrauded -and deceived. I do not'feel that I should resume my seat without again asking the Minister of Agriculture to see to it that he put forth his best efforts to have the regulations changed in such a way that they will protect the great dairy industry of Canada.
Mr. GITSTAVE BOYER (Vaudreuil) (translation) Mr. Speaker, last year I had the honour of laying before this House a petition signed by nearly 29,000 farmers of the province of Quebec protesting against the admission, of oleomargarine into this country.
I was very pleased to hear the bon. member for Lambton, (Mr. Armstrong) speak so interestingly of that question here today.

When we made our protest last year 800 agricultural societies of the province of Quebec adopted a resolution which they forwarded to the Minister of Agriculture.
I myself went to see the hon. Minister and asked him to kindly consent to receive a delegation composed of all the higher personages, that is of the chairmen and secretaries of different societies, agricultural and otherwise, of the province of Quebec; at that time the lion. Minister of Agriculture made me this answer:	"There is no need
of coming in a delegation to Ottawa as the Government will not adopt any Order in Council before submitting the question to Parliament itself." Well, this was not done ; and, when the Government recently adopted [DOT]this Order in Council, I came back to Ottawa in company with certain agricultural authorities of the province of Ontario; but so far our efforts have been fruitless.
I realize that as things are at present the farmer cannot suffer a great deal through tire introduction of oleomargarine into the country, because we cannot make enough butter for export overseas. The danger is not immediate; but- the danger will bebome really -serious if this measure is persisted in after the war, and the strongest proof of this was demonstrated by the hon. member for Lambton. We have at present in' this country a material organisation worth millions of dollars represented in factories and herds; and if you remember well it is not so very long ago that we bad to import from New Zealand the surplus of butter that we required for our own consumption. We have directed all the efforts of the farmers towards a greater production of butter and we have succeeded in. bringing this production. to the. point where it is today.
This Order in Council, as the hon. member for Lambton explained so well, is too broad, it is too pregnant with danger, it opens the door far too wide to wrongful uses.
We have first the product called oleomargarine; next we have margarine; and finally, butterine. There is a little difference between these three products. Margarine is manufactured exclusively from beef suet; butterine is derived in part from beef suet and in part from a mixture of half milk and half butter, while oleomargarine is made from beef suet and cottonseed oil. This last has the most nutritive value and is the best, substitute for butter.
Now, if these products are allowed into the country free of duty; if, still further, their manufacture is permitted here; if this measure remains in force after the* war,

the results will be disastrous for the farmer. The departments of agriculture in the different provinces have done a great deal towards persuading the farmer to give more attention to butter manufacture; and if today their efforts are opposed and favour shown these butter substitutes, we will dis-. courage our population and that will be the end of dairy industry.
As nay hon, friend from Easit Lambton iso well established a moment ago, the nature of butterine, of oleomargarine and of margarine is not the same; there, is a decided difference between each one of these products; and if we continue to allow the manufacture of certain substitutes which in reality are products o.f very inferior quality, and which will be thrown on our markets in great quantities, what will happen? We will discourage our farmers and they will almost entirely abandon this industry; all that we have accomplished to create and develop the dairy industry will be wasted effort and, moreover, our markets will be glutted with inferior products which, no matter what may be said, can never replace real butter made from pure cow's milk.
Let us come now, Mr. Speaker, to the principal reason put forth to justify the permission granted for the manufacture of these substitutes. We were told that it was in the. interest of the working-classes on account of the high price of butter. That is not so; I believe that it was rather to insure greater profits to a few canning factories; and the enormous profits derived from this manufacture will be limited to. these few canners, while in the case of butter the profits go to an entire class of the population, the agricultural class.
Now, Mr. Speaker it is said that the farmers have no reason to complain of this measure since it was endorsed with a view to their, protection. That is false; the measure is entirely to their detriment.
I remember that before this measure was adopted the women's societies in certain cities asked the Government to pass this law on the pretense that it would reduce the cost of living. Let's get at the truth in this matter. Oleomargarine sells for ,37 cents a pound and butter is selling just now for 50 cents. The manufacture of the first of these products costs in the neighbourhood of 12 cents a pound; and still it is sold for [DOT]37 cents. Now I wish to ask any man of common sense if there is such an enormous margin between the cost price and the selling price of a pound of butter as in the case of oleomargarine. No. Mr. Speaker, the
people of this country are tile victims of robbery, pure and simple, when the market price of a substitute composed of grease fat, cottonseed oil and other animal products is ,37 cents per pound, while the cost of manufacture is merely 12 cents, .and I declare further that the Government which legalises this robbery is as guilty as are the manufacturers themselves.
Now, Mr. Speaker, if this product is sold for 37 cents a pound, is it because it really has this value? No, if it brings that price it is only so as to swell the profits of the manufacturers.
What danger theatens the country, if the manufacture of this product continue to be allowed? Precisely the same which threatened and which injured certain States of the Union. The sale of these substitutes on tile markets of the States had for effect the discouragement of the dairy industry; and this is so true that immediately following the adoption of this measure by the States the stock in the milch herds fell away, on account of the strong competition that these substitutes brought to bear against dairy products. Not very long ago merchants from these same States travelled through the province of Quebec and through Ontario and the different eastern provinces buying what milch cattle they could procure in order to fill up the gaps in their own dairy stables at home in the States. Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, these same States today form a group which vigourously opposes and always ha® opposed the authorization by the United -States Government of the manufacture of oleomargarine and of Ibutterine. They met with some success; but the united interests of the American manufacturers were so powerful that they succeeded in having the authorisation of the manufacture of these products continued. Now as to taste, there is not an enormous difference, since it is always possible to impart to this product the flavour of real butter. You can't give it the aroma of butter but you can come very near to giving it the butter flavour.
Well, things remained at that stage with the American Government for several years; and then the manufacturers of these, substitutes got busy again and asked the legislature to permit them to colour their oleomargarine. They said to the legislature: "Put on a tax of 10 cents a pound if you wish, but let us colour this product." They want to make it easier to fool the public, for no one but an expert could tell the difference between real butter and this product.
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In the United States they allowed this change, but they put on a tax of 10 cents per pound. Do you know what happened? To elude the law the manufacturers continued to sell their product without colouring; but they took the precaution of putting in the same wrapper which enclosed the brick of margarine capsules containing a solution which, mixed with a certain quantity of water, gave to the margarine the appearance of butter. That is how the public and the Government were fooled for several years. According to an official bulletin the American Government was mulcted of several million dollars in this wtay.
We have allowed the importation of oleomargarine into this country and we have authorized its manufacture here.
I say now, after the study that I have, made of the matter, that this industry will remain in the hands of a few people. Before long these people will control the oleomargarine market just as was done in the United States.
Some will answer: but in 'England, in Denmark and in other European countries aren't these substitutes manufactured and imported? I admit that; but England's population is so dense that she cannot manufacture all the butter she needs for her own consumption. The Danes manufacture an enormous amount of butter and also oleomargarine, and they prefer to eat margarine so as to export a greater quantity of their products; but here where we have a tremendous expanse of territory, the best of grazing lands and a climate which is favourable to the dairy industry, to authorize the importation and the manufacture of these butter .substitutes is to put a stop to the progress of the dairy industry, in order to meet the demands of the manufacturers of these products.
As the hon. member for Lambton said a moment ago, we have equipped the entire country for the dairy industry. This represents a considerable outlay of capital. What will become of this capital if tomorrow this organisation is opposed by the oleomargarine factories?
Now, the strongest argument in favour of oleomargarine is that the sale or the manufacture of this product will reduce the cost of living. I am willing to admit that, even at 37 cents a pound oleomargarine still costs less than butter at 50 cents; only for 50 cents you do get a pound of butter, whereas for 37 cents you do not get the value of a pound of butter, you do not even receive the cash value of your 37 cents, since it does not cost that much to manufacture oleomargarine.

As the hon. member for .Lambton said a moment ago, the Order in Council is too wide, because it allows the importation of all the products which resemble butter.
I will be glad to vote for the resolution of the hon. member from Lambton because I believe it to be wise and I feel sure that all those members who represent agricultural communities believe as I do. We are here to protect the farmers' interests, and to shield the dairy industry which we have established in this country after a great deal of ceaseless striving. This is not the time to offer the public a product which is not butter and which cannot replace butter; before long, oleomargarine will be sold not for 37 cents but for 50 cents; in the Ions run it is still the poor down-trodden consumer who will bear the burden.
Mr. MICHAEL STEELE (Perth South):: Mr. Speaker, representing, as I do, an agricultural constituency, one of the leading dairy districts of Canada, I need offer no apology for giving expression to a few thoughts on the subject. which has been brought to the attention of the House so well this afternoon Iby the member for East Lanubton (Mr. Armstrong).
The history of the county of Perth relates that some eighty or ninety years ago there were transplanted from good old Scotland to a certain township of the county of Perth representatives of the clan Crerar. Those representatives took root and grew in our county, developing into some of the leading representatives of the live stock industry in western Canada. I have confidence that any member of that clan, later transplanted to the prairies of the West, would not be a true representative of the clan should he not retain a very great interest in the live stock and dairy interests of Canada. Believing that, I am sure that the .Minister of Agriculture (Hon. T. A. Crerar) has a deep interest in the dairy industry, and it is no evidence of lack of interest on his part that steps have been taken iby the Government to permit the importation into and the manufacture of oleomargarine hi this country.
I need not emphasize the importance of the dairy industry, which has been brought to the attention of the House by the member for East Lamibton. We in this country all recognize the great importance of that industry, and believe that it should not be interfered with in any respect without good cause. We know, too, that the cost of producing dairy products in the last few years has increased about seventy-five per cent. The increase in the price of dairy products

has scarcely kept pace with the increase in the cost. As the statistics given by the member for East Lamlhton go to show, there is no scarcity of butter in Canada. The argument put forward in support of permitting the importation and manufacture of oleomargarine-that it is required because of the shortage of butter-is not based on fact. I repeat that there is no soarcriity of butter in Oanadia; more than that, dairy foods are among the cheapest, even ia)t the present high. prices, which the people of Canada can use. Let me give you the cost of various dairy products, at present prices, per one thousand energy units or calories:	butter, at 43 cents a
pound, 14 cents; cheese, at 30 cents a pound, 13 cents; 'milk, at 10 cents a quart, 15 cents. Compare these price's with the prices of some of our meats. .Sirloin steak at 32 'cents will cost 23 cents per one thousand energy units. Pork chops at 36 cents a pound wdlll cost 25 cents per one thousand energy units. We see, therefore, that dairy products are very much cheaper than the meats which we love so well. If we except cereals, there are among the leading foods which we consume no cheaper foods than dairy products.
With these facts before us, it is only reasonable that we (should inquire why oleomargarine 'was demanded ini this country. The demand came mot from the consumers to any great extent-although a limited number of the consumers of butter did ask for if-but largely from the firms and interests who were anxious to enter upon the 'manufacture of oleomargarine. For months a continuous stream of articles and advertisements appeared in the newspapers 'Calling the attention of the people of Canada to the necessity for oleomargairime and to ctetrtiain arguments why this product should be used. I say that the demand came from these parties, who are not interested in the dairy industry, but who are rather competitors with ouir farmers in the 'production of dairy foods.
It is most important that Canada maintain the standard of purity and the reputation of her dairy products. We have built up a reputation in this respect which is possibly unisunpasised by that of any other country in the world, and i<t is most important that we should maintain it. This we can do only by 'looking after the standard of purity of these products. The United States lost their export trade when they began ito dabble in adulterates of their dairy products and to offer substitutes therefor, and the same thing will happen- in Canada. .if we permit a similar system to be adopted here.
A condition exists in Canada which does not exist in other countries where the demand for oleomargarine has been great. In the European countries, and possibly in the United States, the production of dairy products and butter does not supply the demand, but in Canada our production is greater than our requirements-and we have not yet nearly reached the limit of that production.
One of the arguments put forward by advocates of oleomargarine was the price of butter. I have pointed out that butter, even at present prices, is one of the cheapest foods that our people can use. Another argument was the scarcity of butter. I have shown that butter is not scarce in Canada; the fact that w7e have been able to export from eight to ten million pounds during recent years goes to show that there is no scarcity of that product.
The third argument is a rather peculiar one: that there is necessity for additional fats for our people. If the manufacturers of oleomargarine can show us that they are producing for the people any additional or increased quantity of fats, then we may say that there is something in the argument; but as a matter of fact they are not. There are no more fats now than there were before the manufacture of oleomargarine wTas commenced; tlie only change' is one of form.
Oleomargarine is put forth as a substitute for butter. It is not and never can be a substitute for butter. Butter has many advantages over it; I will not take time at present to set them out in detail. It is, however, recognized by every one that butter is more easily digested than oleomargarine, and that for children it is incomparably better than oleomargarine. Oleomargarine is not a substitute for butter, and was never intended as such; it is intended only as an imitation, and the manner in which it is manufactured and put up is evidence of that. For instance, it is coloured to look like butter; it is flavoured to taste like butter, and it is priced so as to come as near to butter in tli at respect as the market will permit.
What is the composition of this substance known as oleomargarine? The manufacturers use very nice terms to describe its composition, but, using ordinary every-day language, I would say it consists chiefly of tallow, lard and cotton-seed oil. Nor is the composition always uniform. We have from tw'enty-two to forty-seven per cent of tallow in different samples. Of lard,


Mr. E. W. NESBITT (North Oxford):: I am very sorry that while I have had an opportunity for some years in listening to my hon. friends on the other side of the House, I still could not this afternoon follow my hon. friend opposite who spoke on this question. I rise merely for the purpose of endorsing what has been said by my hon. friend from East Lamfoton (Mr. J. E. Armstrong) with reference to oleomargarine. If the regulations are in any way loose they should 'be made absolutely tight. If oleomargarine is imported into this country it should' be imported in such a manner that it can be guaranteed to be pure and manufactured in. a first class manner. There was undoubtedly a demand from the people for oleomargarine on account of the high price of butter. My hon. friend from Perth (Air. Steele) says he comes from one of the best dairying districts of Canada; that is quite true, but I come .from the very best district,


Mr. McMASTER:: Question!


Edward Walter Nesbitt: There is no question
about it. I confess that the farmers of my constituency were very much opposed to oleomargarine being imported, but the
townspeople wanted it, and so long as. this *Government is here to represent the interests of all classes of the people, they will have to act. according to their best judgment. We may as well face the truth that workingmen in the cities and towns cannot afford to 'buy butter at its present price; but it is also true that if oleomargarine is *well made it cannot be soldi very much cheaper than butter, though it can be made more extensively, if 1 may use the word, (because it is manufactured in a slightly different *fray. Personally, 1 do not believe that oleomargarine, if well made and sold [DOT]under proper regulations, will decrease the price of good butter to any considerable degree; and if the butter is. not good, it is no better than oleomargarine, if as good.
I am happy to say, however, that in Ontario, at all events, and I hope in all the other provinces,, the (butter that is made nowadays is very good. Before the war it could compete in Europe with the very best Danish and Irish butter, and that is saying a good deal. I sihall not take up longer the time of the House. I only rose to say that I absolutely endorse the suggestion of my hon.. friend from Lambton (Mr. Armstrong) that the regulations, if too ' loose, should be tightened, and the greatest possible care taken to see that the oleomargarine is well made and to prevent fraud of any kind) in its sale. If we are to import oleomargarine, the conditions surrounding it up to the time of its importation should he absolutely first-class in every way. The farmers who are opposed to the importation of oleomargarine fear that it may reduce the price of butter to- some extent, but, so far, I have not heard of its having had that effect in the section of the country where I live. I believe as firmly as I believe I am, standing here, that if the Government are cautious and. surround its importation, manufacture and sale with proper regulations, good will accrue rather than harm to the people generally.


Mr. F. H. KEEFER (Port Arthur):: I
wish to concur in what has been said by my hon. friend from Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt) with regard to the good results that may be expected from the importation of oleomargarine i/ruto this country. The reason why .it was introduced was 'to supply the poor man's table with the fate that are essential to the human constitution.. The price of butter, not through any corner in the dairying industry, not that the dairymen were getting too much-An fact, they were not getting enough-had gone up very considerably, because of the immense de-

imand by th-e Allies, -chiefly far evaporated milk far -the 'soldiers. The milk -that was used for that purpose came into competition with the -milk used i-n the manufacture of butter, and forced the price of butter u-p. The price of butter wais not too high; it ro-se to fifty-two, whilst formerly it was down to thirty or thirty-five cents. Complaints were coming in from various directions that working people were compelled to dlo without the animal fats which they absolutely -needed. It was therefore deemed advisable in the interests of Itbe -working man of this country to allow -the importation of -oleomargarine as a war measure. The Objections which have been raised o,n -account of -any (possibilities of fraud were met by the Order in -Council. The frauds in connection- with the revenue of the United States wer-e incurred because of the excise -duty on the manufacture of oleomargarine. In drawing u;p the regulations it w-as thought advisable not to have this duty, -and thereby -avoided the difficulties they have hlad i-n the United States, -and we are also getting the oleomargarine at the cheapest possible -price. That -also answers the -argument that i-t was the interests who urged the Government to -allow the entry of oleomargarine. If that were s-o, why let it come in free of duty? Any -householder t-o-day in C-ana-d-a-h-e does not have to be -a dealer-can apply for a license to import oleomargarine -and obtain it without having to pay any fee. The sole reason for allowing the importation and sale of oleomargarine is-to supply the necessary fats for the poor man's table. With regard to manufacture and fixing a price, it it not advisable to put a maximum price on anything if i-t is possible to avoid it. That is the very reason why oleomargarine has been brought in; two courses were open: one was to fix -a maximum price for butter, which would have been most detrimental to the farming interests o-f the country, or secondly, to help out the situation by importing oleomargarine. If we fixed a maximum price for oleomargarine, we should he defeating the very object o-f the regulations -allowing it to come in. With regard to the manufacture of oleomargarine in this country, the regulations are not unchangeable like the laws of the Medes and Persians, but -are in the hands of the Department of Agriculture, who have the dairying industry of the country most- at heart. I-f the regulations are found to be too loose they can easily be amended, but in my opinion they are most stringent, far more stringent than in the United Stat'es, 
where many complaints have been received on account o-f the strictness of the Canadian regulations. I should like any member of this House who has any doubts to see some of the letters which have come in since oleomargarine has been allowed to be imported-letters of gratitude from workingmen who heretofore were unable to buy the necessary fats-thanking the Government for what has been done.


Mr. W. F. NICKLE:: We have heard from the member from East Lam-bton (Mr. Armstrong!, and the member for -South Perth (Mr. Steele) this -afternoon that in the interests of the farmer the importation of oleomargarine into this country should be prohibited.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I did not say
that.
Mr. NI-CKLE: I will change the word to regulated. The reasons given in support of their argument are these : First, that if the product is improperly manufactured it is detrimental to health, and secondly, that there should be regulations because there is a possibility of the importation interfering with the dairying industry. In so far -as they assert that every -protection should -be thrown about the commodity to see that the people are not given food that is injurious to them, I am in hearty accord with them, but when they assert that there was in this country prior tp oleomargarine being permitted to be imported sufficient -fats to meet the ordinary requirements of the people, I must differ with them, and differ most radically.
In a constituency which has no rural electorate, I know' as a fact that butter has -cached such a price that it is impossible for the poorer-paid class of the community to purchase it at all, and this class is using dripping and other sorts of fat to take the place of butter and similar commodities, which have hitherto been used on their table. The hon. member for South Perth (Mr. Steele) argues that, because Canad-a prior to the war exported butter, there was more butter manufactured in Canada than we actually required. I am quite prepared to admit that, if Canada wais manufacturing more butter than she can consume and was exporting butter, there might be something in the hon. gentleman's argument, but the figures are there; for the year ending March 31st, 1914, Canada exported 1,228,753 pounds of butter, and during the same period she imported 7,000,000 pounds of butter, which would lead us to the conclusion that Canada was not making

[DOT]enough butter to supply her wants, and had to import a large quantity. For the fiscal year ending 31ist March, 1917, Canada exported 7,990,435 pounds of butter, and the reason she was exporting such a large amount of butter, as compared with what she exported in 1914, was that in England the price of butter had been fixed at somewhere over 53 cents, and in the United States I think the price was 50 cents a pound. In other words, the price of butter was determined by the export price, and you could obtain in Great Britain, owing to the necessities of the case, a sufficiently large price to justify exporting the article to that country. The result was that so much butter was exported from Canada that a sufficient quantity to normally supply the needs of the country was not retained in Canada. The price rose from 35 cents to 50 cents a pound, and the foreign market was practically unlimited. In 1914 Britain imported 446,000,000 pounds of butter, and in 1916 she imported 224,000,000 pounds. In the year 1913-1914 England imported from Norway, Sweden, Denmark and the Netherlands 250,000,000 pounds of butter, and in 1916 she imported from other countries 132,000,000 pounds of butter, and there is now an embargo on exportations from those [DOT]countries, which would lead to the conclusion that the demand for butter from Canada will increase. You might say, " Oh, you are only directing youf argument to [DOT]present day conditions." True, that is the position I have taken so far, that the conditions of the war have increased the.price of butter, and the conditions in the cities are bearing so heavily on the working classes, and the necessity of people obtaining an article to take the place of butter is so great that the people are entitled to have a cheaper product. I regret we are only importing at the present time 1,000,000 pounds of oleomargarine per month from the United States. From the constituency from which I come, we get oleomargarine at 32 cents a pound. I think butter sells from 45 to 48 cents. I have used oleomargarine.


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: How did you
like it?


William Folger Nickle: The Minister of Trade and Commerce asks me how I liked it. Used on bread, I may say that oleomargarine was not as satisfactory to me as the commodity I got in England with him, at one of the hospitals, but for shortening purposes I am informed by those of my household,
that it most satisfactorily takes the place of the higher priced article.
Now, in regard to the war-What are the conditions in Europe to-day? The herds of Europe are being depleted, and it is going to take time to restore the conditions which existed prior to the war, and it seems to me that high prices foT a long time are 'bound to prevail in regard to butter. At the present time I understand that Canada is supplying less than 2 per cent of the requirements of Great Britain in the [DOT]matter of butter, and supplying, on the other hand, somewhere about 67 per cent of the cheese requirements. If these figures are correct in regard to Canada's position as an exporting and importing country, and if the suggested conditions exist after the war, it does not seem to me unreasonable that we who live in the city should ask of those who live in the country that, for the present, at least, the importation of oleomargarine into Canada should ibe allowed, but under 6uch conditions as will ensure that the imported or manufactured article shall be sanitary and safe as a food product.


Mr. J. W. EDWARDS (Frontenae):: The reason I desire to say a word on this subject is that I represent a constituency which, in the matter of cheese production, stands fifth or sixth in the counties of the province of Ontapio. In eastern Ontario we are not so much concerned in regard to the manufacture of butter as they are in western Canada. Eastern Ontario and western Quebec are vitally concerned in that part of the dairying industry which has relation to the production of cheese, and anything which has a tendency to prejudicially affect the dairy industry in regard to the production of cheese in those portions of the two provinces is entitled to the very earnest and careful consideration of the Government. For a great many years the farmers of the eastern part of Ontario and the western part of Quebec have worked long, earnestly and intelligently to build up an industry which has made a name for this country, and an industry on which the farmers of those parts to which I refer depend, I might say almost entirely, for their revenue and their sustenance. I. wish to commend the hon. member for East Lamb-ton (Mr. Armstrong), and the hon. member for South Perth (Mr. Steele) for the information they have given the House this afternoon. They have given us figures with regard to the amount of capital in-[DOT]vested in the dairy industry and the amount of the product of that

diize the future of a great industry, built up with very great labour and care, and the exercise of great intelligence.


Mr. JOSEPH READ (Prince):: I am a voice from the East. I desire to say a few words on this question.. In my province, (particularly imy constituency, we have one of (the great dairying centres of Canada. I might isay that our people have not only to depend upon the dairy industry as such, but the very basic necessity for successful agriculture with ns is the maintenance of the dairy industry, because of the value tied up in the herds uised in that industry. The same conditions do not apply so much to the West, because the western farmer, as yet, is simply skimming the virgin soil of that great icoiuinhry. But, in the eastern provinces, it is absolutely necessary to maintain the dairy industry because of its manureal value. Therefore, I quite agree with the hon. gentleman who moved the resolution (Mr. J. E. Armstrong), that the Government should be very careful about how it handle? this matter. By all means, it should not create such 'a vested interest in the manufacture of oleomargarine and that class ot goods that there would be the necessity to maintain it after the war. Let us import oleomargarine if we have to, but let us not create manufacturing industries in Canada in such a way that we cannot get clear of them after the war is over.
I want to draw attention to some fallacies in connection with this matter. For instance, one hon. gentleman stated that we were importing more butter than we were exporting. That would appear as if Canada could not make enough butter for its-owu needs. Butter and cheese are both made from milk, and if we produce a very large quantity of cheese we produce that much less butter; and the reason why we do not produce enough butter for ourselves is on account of the high price of cheese, due entirely to war conditions. Cheese, as we all know, is particularly the Englishman's food. It is one of the most concentrated foods that we have, and because of the difficulties of transportation it is one of the most desirable products that Canada can produce for the purpose of winning the war. In so far as the importation of oleomargarine will enable us to produce more cheese, we are helping to win the war by allowing it to enter, because cheese is what is wanted at the front. Tt is one of the easiest things to transport, is highly nutritious, and one of the most highly con-

centrated foods that they could get at the front. Therefore, while we are producing cheese for the armies of our allies, we should by all means produce as much of it as we can.
In this connection I would like to say a word with regard to the fixing of a price on cheese this season. The price of cheese this season ought to be raised considerably above that of last year, and so far as our Government has control of the matter in negotiating with the Imperial authorities, who, I presume, will be taking our cheese, they should draw the attention of those authorities to the fact that the high prices they pay are pure fallacies. The man who gets 22 cents a pound for his cheese to-day is not getting any more than if he were getting 11 cents in ante-bellum days, because it is the value of the dollar that has gone down and not the price of cheese that has gone up. I was out in British Columbia a couple of weeks ago visiting some of my friends, and I was astonished to find that nearly all the gold mining had been suspended, *and I enquired why the people were not mining gold. They said: "Oh, it does not pay us to mine gold; it is far better for us to mine copper and lead, because the price of gold remains where it was before, and these other metals have gone up.'' Gold has gone down, as a matter of fact, for it has a fixed value or price, and as everything else has advanced, it has left the gold relatively low.
One hon. member spoke about the high prices the farmers are getting for their products. He must remember that these high prices are purely fictitious; they are based upon a gold standard that is fixed, while, as a matter of fact, the value of gold has gone down, and a dollar is worth only fifty cents intrinsically.
Now, I want to say a few words with regard to estimating distances. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Edwards) spoke about measuring distances not in miles but in time. We do not measure distances with regard to transportation either in miles or in time, but in freight rates, and one of the things hon. gentlemen should always remember when they are discussing questions in connection with transportation problems is to measure all distances by the rate of freight per ton, per bushel, or per pound .as the case may be, because it makes a great deal of difference if you talk about transportation in miles or in time, when it is the freight rate which really represents distance. I am in favour of

this resolution in so far as it draws the Government's attention to the fact that this matter is of very serious importance to the farming population of the Maritime Provinces, as well as of Quebec and Ontario.


Mr. R. J. MANION (Fort William and Rainy River):: Mr. Speaker, I do not differ from the statements made by the member for East Lambton (Mr. Armstrong) and the member for South Perth (Mr. Steele), because their grounds are well taken in so far as they desire to protect the great dairying industry of Canada. At the same time, I agree with the member for Kingston (Mr. Nickle) that many people cannot afford to pay from fifty to sixty cents per pound for butter and the vast majority of the people desire that oleomargarine, under proper regulations, be admitted into Canada.
During my two years' service at the front I used oleomargarine in place of butter. In England to-day they use oleomargarine indiscriminately, except in the high-class hotels or aristocratic homes. Almost any one in England who uses oleomargarine of a good brand could not tell the difference between it and butter. Many times I have sat at table in good hotels and in good messes when arguments arose whether we were eating oleomargarine or butter, and nobody could tell the difference. I do not believe that the soldiers from Canada, from the other dominions or from the British Isles get anything else in the front lines but oleomargarine, because it is cheaper, and the men cannot tell the difference. There may be a slight difference in the food value of the two products; in that respect I would not dispute the word of the member for East Lambton or of the member for South Perth. But after all, the amount of butter that one eats is not so very important as to its food value. As to its taste, palatabdlity, and appearance-because they use colouring over there-there is no difference between good oleomargarine and butter. I believe that the use of colouring matter in the manufacturing of oleomargarine is not permitted in this country; probably that is a good regulation, because it prevents the sale of oleomargarine as butter. That point is- very strongly insisted upon in England, with a view to protecting the dairying interests and preventing dealers from selling oleomargarine as butter. As you walk down the streets of a city in England you see in the dairy stores oleomargarine advertised for sale as such, at so much per pound.
Since the importation of oleomargarine into this country was commenced one disappointment to me has been that the price
almost equal to that of 'butter. Here the price is about three-quarters the price of butter, /while in England it is about one-half. The member for Port Arthur (Mr. Keefer), who is on the Food Board, informs me that oleomargarine offered1 for sale in Canada must be distinctly marked as- such, and certainly this regulation should 'be strictly enforced. The ordinary person who can afford butter may not wish to substitute oleomargarine for it, but the workman who is getting a low wage will use oleomargarine if he feels that he can use it economically in the place of butter. I believe that something which is good enough for the daily rations of the soldiers in the battle line should not be too bad to be imported into this Dominion. I agree that the regulations should be very strict, but I do not agree that the people do not want oleomargarine. It is my view that the importation of oleomargarine into this country should be permitted in proper quantities and under proper regulations.


Mr. DONALD SUTHERLAND (Oxford South):: I have been much impressed, in listening to the addresses that have been delivered on this subject, by the words of a good judge of human nature, who once said:
When self the wavering balance shakes It's rarely right adjusted.
It is quite natural that the members of the House should represent the views of their constituents as nearly as it is possible for them to do so. The Government, I suppose, has to look at matters from a different standpoint and endeavour to legislate for the benefit of the whole people. I have always been prepared to give the Government full credit for using their best judgment in all matters of legislation, and if I say some things this afternoon that are in conflict with what the Government has done, I assure the House that I do so from a feeling that proper safeguards have not been provided in this particular instance.
I was somewhat impressed by the statement of the member for Fort William (Mr. Manion), that what is good enough for the soldier ought to be good enough for the people who are at home here in Canada. His desk-mate, the member for Port Arthur (Mr. Keefer) said that one of the reasons why butter has become so expensive was that so much milk had been evaporated for the use of the soldiers. We have listened to a soldier-a man who has served a couple of years in the trenches, and knows what he is talking about-who states that oleomargarine is used by the soldiers in place of butter. I believe that instead of evaporm

ated milk or condensed milk the soldier receives skimmed milk or klim.


Robert James Manion: He receives evaporated
milk or condensed cream most of the time.


Donald Sutherland: I think you will
find that very little cream reaches the soldiers; the product is made almost entirely from skimmed milk.


Robert James Manion: The finest evaporated
cream I have ever taken was in the lines.
Mr. .SUTHERLAND : That is not the case on this side of the water. I believe that what the soldiers receive is not the whole milk, but skimmed milk. I know factories where it is being manufactured for that purpose. I do not say that is good enough for the soldiers, for I think they are entitled to the best we can give them. Condensed milk is becoming more extensively used in this country; but I think you will find that very little, if any, of the whole milk reaches the soldier. It is doctored up in a manner that may possibly deceive, and that is the strong objection that I have to oleomargarine. It is a deceptive; it is a counterfeit; it is not sold on its merits; and that is why I voice my objection. Oleomargarine is coming into competition with and endeavouring to replace an old established article of food in this country. The injustice creeps in in the endeavour to place oleomargarine before the consumer under the guise of butteT under butter trademark? That is the , trouble in the United States where they have permitted the manufacture of oleomargarine for a great many years. As the hon. member for Frontenac (Mr. Edwards) pointed out, in the United States in 1911, when upwards of 500,000,000 pounds of oleomargarine were manufactured, only 92,000,000 pounds of it were sold as that commodity. Why? Because of the fact that in that country coloured oleomargarine has to pay a tax of ten cents per pound whereas the uncoloured oleomargarine pays a tax of one quarter of a cent per pound. In order to evade the payment of that tax, the manufacturers resort to the colouring of this food article with a view to deceiving the people, and you may say what you like about the matter, if they were honest, they would not endeavour to evade the United States regulations in that way. "
With regard to the regulations which have been passed by this 'Government, this is number 1:
>No substance intended for the colouring of oleomargarine shall be imported into Canada in packages containing oleomargarine, and no

manufacturer, wholesale dealer, or retail dealer in oleomargarine shall deal in, sell, or give away any substances intended for colouring oleomargarine.
That covers what? It cowers the importation into Canada of colouring ito be used for that purpose, but it does not prevent the importation into Canada of coloured oleomargarine. That is quite permissible.
I think in 1884 regulations were passed regarding the purity of butter and tlhe manufacture and sale of butter. In 1914, the Dairy Act was consolidated and those safeguards were still retained, but from time ito time pressure was eo|ntiinu)a!lly being brought to bear toy those interested in the manufacture of oleomargarine to permit its manufacture in this country. It is pointed out that this is a measure under the Wax Measures Act, owing to the abnormal demand for and consequent high, prices of butter. If the importation of oleomargarine into this country was permitted in order to relieve a stiningemcy or a condition that had become unbearable, I do not think any very serious objection would Ibe raised to it, bult the price of butter has not gone up in proportion to the advance in price of many other food products. Statistics have already been given in that regard, but when you stop to realize that the manufacture of butter is part of an industry in which upwards of $500,000,000 are invested by the people of Canada, .it is a very serious matter to interfere with .an industry which is so extensive and which means so much to successful agriculture in this country. You may make comparisons with some of the congested countries of Europe; you may say that oleomargarine is admitted into those countries; but we have here a vast extent of country, a country whicih has enormous possibilities, 'particularly iwiiitlh regard to agriculture, and 'alt this time when food is of such vital importance to the world at large, we ought ito be very careful with regard to any legislation that will affect an industry so extensive and important as this one. Whlat does dairying mean to this country? Dairying as I have said, is the very foundation of successful agriculture in this country. Our friends from western Canada, with that ifich and fertile soil which they (have in the West, may exploit that soil for a number of years; .they may reap enormous crops; they may mine the fertility of that soil, but the day will come as it has come in. ithe older provinces, when they will have to resort to scientific agriculture in order to maintain aq.d increase the production of .the land. That is unquestionable. Look at the investments

that have been made iin the industry of *agriculture, the buildings that .have been erected, tlhie factories that have been established by little bands of men who have cooperated for that purpose, and yet here, without .any regard for that inindustry, or for the tights of those -people, you drive a dagger into the industry in which they have invested their all, regardless of the effect such action will have on successful agriculture in this country. Take, for instance, the county from which I come. Reference has been made to other great dairying districts. I believe the first cheese that was manufactured in Canada was manufactured at South Oxford at a little place called Salford. I know the place very well. My hon. friend from Prince (Mr. Read) referred to the fact that by decreasing the amount of milk used for butter, you were going to increase the output of cheese. It is rather significant that at the present time, under the regulations passed by the British Government, fixing the price of cheese here last year, cheese factory after cheese factory in South Oxford is being closed up and put out of business. The butter factories, or creameries,- are also being put out of business. This is an opportune time for the large manufacturers of condensed milk to step in and put up a price with which the butter or cheese maker cannot compete, and they consequently capture that trade, and those factories, after remaining closed for a number of years, will depreciate. to such an extent that it is questionable whether they will be able to go on again or not when conditions again become normal. Many have already been closed or shut down as a result of fixing prices and other regulations. At the present time some of them are going on in the hope that the price of cheese will be so fixed as to enable them to manufacture profitably.


Mr. BURNHAM:: If some good wholesome commodity were put upon the market for the benefit of the consumer, which commodity was considerably cheaper than butter, would my hon. friend still insist that that commodity, which was cheaper than butter, should be prohibited?


Donald Sutherland: If it was a substitute that was going to be sold on its merits, I do not think any serious objections would be raised to it. As I pointed out at the outset, my strongest objection was to a deceptive counterfeit being foisted on the people of this country and not being sold on its merits. It is an article that is put up, according to the regulations under the
Dairy Act, in one pound prints, wrapped in wrappers identical with those in which creamery butter is being put up, and it is being coloured also with a view to deceiving the public, and the public are not protected by the regulations which have been enacted here with regard to the matter. My hon. friend asks if I would object to a substitute being brought in to take the place of butter. No, I would not. Butter is something that can take care of itself ij. competition with anything else; but when you bring something of that kind in, and you add to it from fifteen to twenty-five or thirty per cent of butter, when you churn it with milk in order to take the flavour from the milk and add it to that commodity, then I say: You are not in a legitimate business, and you are not engaged in a business that this or any other government should countenance where agriculture is regarded as being of importance.
That ought to be clear to the mind of every one. Although you make regulations that oleomargarine shall not be manufactured or mixed in factories where butter is being manufactured, yet you permit milk and butter to Ibe taken in for the flavour to be extracted from- it in order to make this grease palatable with which to deceive the people and capture .the -market. Then I am asked if I object to a legitimate business! I say that this- is not a legitimate business; it is an entirely illegitimate business, and it is a significant thing that the promulgation o'f these regulations was almost the very first act of the present Union Government. In that Government we have quite a number of men who have not been in this House before, and who possibly did not realize the insidious appeal that had -been constantly made by those interested in the oleomargarine business. The big packing house manufacturers think this is the opportune time to get this industry established in this country, knowing full well that once it is established it will- be almost impossible to uproot it after the war, because those who are engaged in legitimate dairying have individually only a small amount of capital invested in it compared with the capital of those engaged in the manufacture of oleomargarine. The farmers had absolute confidence that the Government would not do anything that would imperil the industry in which they were engaged. They expected that if the importation of oleomargarine was to be permitted under the War Measures Act, safeguards would be thrown- a-round1 its importation, which I am sorry to say I -cannot see in



the regulations. We talk about how we are going to take care of- the soldiers who return from the war, and what the Government ie going to do to re-establish, them in civil life. Was there a business or branch of agriculture that offers a more inviting opportunity to these men than the dairying business? Yet we have permitted an injustice to be done which may poseifoly imperil that industry for all time to come. The cheese industry has been crippled 'so seriously that it will only ibe a short time before something will have to be done if the British Government aie going to get cheese from Canada for the soldiers during this war. I am pointing out these things for several reasons. One is the danger of interfering with and fixing prices, and I quite agree with the remarks of my hon. friend from Port Arthur (Mr. Keefer) with regard to price-fixing. Fixing a price for cheese has jeopardized the in dustry to such an extent that the outlook is a very serious one indeed for those engaged in the business. This fixing of prices has a bearing on other industries. Someone may say: "Why, look at the precautions that have been taken by the Food Board, with regard to feed for dairy stock. They have fixed a price for bran, shorts and mill feed and prohibited the exportation of screenings to the United. States, in order to provide feed for our stock." True, all this has been done and' provision has also been made for inspection of all the articles that go into the manufacture of oleomargarine in the United States and Canada. But in spite of what has been done, bran is selling between $40 and $45 per ton in Ontario, and shorts between $45 and $50, and the farmers cannot get it at those prices; they are prepared to pay almost any price. Weed seeds are -being ground up and mixed with the mill feed to such an extent that stock is being poisoned and have died in many instances as a result, and protests have been lodged with the Government against this crime that has been committed against those engaged in the dairy business. There -is no reason in the world why ground weed seeds should appear in mill feeds, such as bran and shorts except by fraud, yet there it is, and that is on-ly o.ne of the things that the man engaged in the dairying business has to contend with to-day. The intention of the Food Control Board may have been good, and they may think they have accomplished their purpose, but the fact is the farmers are being charged an exorbitant price, and the regulations are not being observed or enforced. The Government should 
also see that those who are willing to pay the highest price for -mill feed do not get it in the face of those regulations.
I have spoken longer than I intended. I would not have said what I have were it not for the fact that the district from which I come is largely agricultural and industrial, about evenly divided in that respect, and consequently I am inclined to look at this matter from iboth sides. I say again that if we are going to permit oleomargarine to come into Canada let us see that it comes in in its pure state, uncoloured, and is not mixed with butter, or churned with milk, and that it 'be not put up in pound prints of identically the same size and shape, and in wrappers identically the same, with the exception of the name, as the creamery butter, because there is no occasion for it. I am not going to dispute with those who say that oleomargarine is as palatable as butter, because I do not think I ever tasted the stuff in -my life, and I am not in a position to express- an opinion as- to that. . But it is a significant thing that the wealthy people of this country and of the Old Country do not want to eat oleomargarine. It is good enough for the poor people, they think, and they would let them have as much as they want. " Give the poorer people all the oleomargarine," they say, " and leave the cream for us; we shall get it all the cheaper." And that is about the -case with skim milk to which I have already referred, which is put up for consumption- iby the poor and the soldiers. There are many large factories engaged in condensing milk and manufacturing milk powder in the county from which I come. I believe the cost of the production of butter has increased more since the war began than the cost of production of any other article of food, Oats are selling to-day from $1 to $1.10 a bushel; mill feed is also at a higher price, and labour is not to be had; and at a time like this, when greater production is -being urged, one of the old established industries of this country -an industry that has done more to enrich the fertility and productivity of the soil of Canada, and to establish agriculture on a sound and lasting basis than any other branch of agriculture-is being jeopardized by passing legislation of this kind without adequate safeguards. I feel that I would toe recreant in my duty to my constituents if I did not record my protest on behalf of those I represent.


Mr. F. S. SCOTT (South Waterloo):: I
should like to add one further argument to those advanced in opposition; to th-is Order -in Council permitting the Smpor-

tatiom of oleomamgarine. I approach the subject from a somewhat different standpoint from that assumed by other horn, gentlemen,, and I will (not go over the arguments already so well advanced (this afternoon. It seems to me a very short time isinoe the Order in Council was passed. Tihe effect of (that Order in Council was to allow the importation of Ian article from the United States into Canada. And yet, while this action /was taken, only (comparatively speajking, a short time ago, we are told alt the present time one of the most important problems that confronts the people of Canada from a trade standpoint is the rectifying of the balance of trade between Canada and the United States. It seems to me this action is a mistake, because it disturbs a well-established and a great industry, when, to-day, we are told that the War Trade Board has under consideration a recommendation to the Canadian Government regarding the prohibition of the importation of certain articles into this country. I do not want to enter into a discussion of 'the merits or demerits of oleomargarine as against butter, but it does seem to me that the Government should consider whether it is not a mistake, to encourage the importation of an article, when the result will be the disruption of a great industry, and then to attempt to rectify the conditions, which they have deliberately brought about, by regulations prohibiting the importation of certain articles, which will mean the disruption of other industries. I do not refer to the importation of luxuries, which may be all very well, but it is proposed also to prohibit the importation of certain articles that cannot be considered as luxuries, and I believe, in addition to that, to make up for the revenue that will be lost in that way, to .put a special tax upon certain articles. It seems to me that the Government anight very well give that aspect of 'the case serious consideration.
At six o'clock the House took recess.
After Recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.


Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Minister of Agriculture) :: Mr. Speaker, in the whole range oi the business of agriculture, in all the countries where it is carried on, there is perhaps no question which has given rise to more controversy than the question of oleomargarine. Therefore, it is not surprising that we should have had a discussion such as the House has listened to this afternoon in
20*
connection with this subject. It is perfectly proper, I think, that the House should be given the considerations which led the Government, to change the policy which had been adhered to in this country for so many years with respect to this product, and to permit not only its importation into Canada but its manufacture in Canada as well.
We have had given to us this afternoon a considerable amount of statistics relative to the dairy industry of Canada and the great importance it holds in our agricultural activities. I have taken the trouble to gather some information with respect to the production of dairy products in Canada, particularly in relation to our exports and imports during the past few years. I am not going to detain the House by giving figures running back over a series of years, but I do desire to- place before hon. gentlemen a few facts. I have a statement here showing the following results:



EXPORTS OP DAIRY PRODUCTS.

[Stage Direction]
1917
Cheese
l'b
155,216,000'
180,733,426
Butter
lb.
828,232
7,9'9'0,0'00
Condensed Milk lb.
335,849
15,858,000
If we take the imports for these- two years we find that, while in 1913 the total imports of butter in Canada amounted to 7,989,000 pounds, in 1917 this importation into Canada had dropped to 997,000 pounds. The reason for this rapid increase in the exportation was alluded to by my hon. friend from Frontenac (Mr. Edwards) this afternoon. The war has made very heavy demands on. America for supplies of this kind as it has for almost all kinds of agricultural supplies. Great Britain normally imported from Holland, Denmark and other continental countries the greater part of the butter and cheese that she used prior to the outbreak of war. 'Since then this has been very largely shut off and consequently Canada has had to make up the deficiency. The higher prices that were paid there led to a rapid rise in the exportation from Canada during the- period to which I have referred. That had one effect in so far as Canada was concerned; it reduced, and reduced very considerably, the amount that was available for consumption by the people of Canada. It was also the fact that, due to the war, prices had increased very considerably and it was increasingly difficult for the poorer people in the towns and cities to get the nourishment in fats that they required. Throughout the year 1917, I find, various requests were made to the Government for the removal of the restrictions upon the importation of
[Stage Direction]
oleomargarine. I find, for instance, that [DOT]the board of health of the city of Toronto placed a recommendation before their city council, and which was in turn placed before the Government, that the importation into Canada, and the manufacture in Canada, of oleomargarine should be permitted. We find, too, that the civic authorities in Montreal made a similar request of the Government. We have also a resolution that was presented to the Government by the Anti-tuberculosis Association of Ottawa, which is as follows:-
Whereas the war is emphasizing more and more the need of increasing our efforts against the ravages of tuberculosis; and
Whereas the statistics from France, Belgium, Germany and other European countries show an alarming increase in the number of civilians suffering from tuberculosis, due in a large measure, to the lack of nourishing food ; and
Whereas animal fats are essential to the healthy growth of our Canadian boys and girls; and
Whereas the present price of butter is practically prohibitive ;
Resolved, the Ottawa Anti-tuberculosis Association hereby respectfully recommends that everything be done by our Government to make it possible for our people to psrchase nourishing food at reasonable rates, and as one step toward this much-to-be-desired end, that the Government should forthwith remove the ban upon the importation, manufacture and sale of Oleomargarine.
It is further resolved that a copy of this resolution be sent at once to the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture.
I might say, Mr. Speaker, that the decision to modify the regulations governing the- importation and manufacture of oleomargarine had been reached before I became a member of the Government. Immediately after that the regulations were drafted, and the regulations that are to-day in effect were prepared practically by the Dairy Commissioner in the Department of Agriculture. Any person who knows the Dairy Commissioner is quite aware of this fact, that the dairy industry in Canada has a splendid champion in him. And he was very careful to draft these regulations so as to conserve and protect the dairy industry to the very greatest degree possible.
Now, I want to draw attention to the fact that' the Order in Council with regard to oleomargarine sets out that it is to be regarded as a war measure. In the preamble we find these words:
Such regulations to be in force and to have effect for the period during which the present abnormal conditions continue, the conclusion of such period to be determined by His Excellency the- Governor General in Council, as provided in the said regulations, and as a war measure only.

The regulations were drafted with a great deal of care. I do not pretend for a moment that they are perfect, nevertheless, 1 do think that they afford a very fair measure of protection to the dairy industry in Canada. The statement was made, I believe, by the hon. member for East Lambton (Mr. Armstrong), who introduced the resolution, that the demand for the removal of these restrictions had emanated largely from people in Canada who desired to manufacture this article and offer it for sale. Well, if such is the case, they have not, so far, taken very great advantage of the opportunity that was presented to them, for up to the present time only two licenses have been issued for the manufacture of oleomargarine in Canada, I believe there are two other concerns equipping their premises to conform to the requirements of the law relating to this manufacture. But I venture to say that there will not be any great number of manufacturers in Canada engage in this business, and, I believe, for the reason that they realize that it is a war measure, and that there is no assurance of permanency in it.
Edward Walter Nesbitt: May I ask the minister if the Government refused to allow others who conformed to the regulations to engage in manufacture?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; any person in Canada who will conform to the regulations laid down is open to manufacture this article. The hon. member for East Lambton also stated that there was a possibility of fraud in the importation of this article, inasmuch as the importation was not restricted alone to oleomargarine. I am told that oleomargarine and margarine are practically interchangeable terms. In Great Britain the article is known as margarine, in the United States it is known as oleomargarine, but it is practically one and the same article. As far as nut margarine is concerned, that is not permitted to be manufactured in the United States, I am told, or to secure the certificate that their laws require, and I understand that it is not, under this condition, imported into Canada.
There is one other point which the hon. member for East Lambton referred to that I desire to deal with. He stated, and I believe the hon. member for South Perth (Mr. Steele) also referred to this point, that the manufacturing establishments now permitted to manufacture oleomargarine had an advantage over the creamery industry in the country which was not permitted to manufacture and offer it for sale. To-day, oleomargarine is manufactured in

two of the large packing houses in Canada. They have to sell it as oleomargarine. They do not deal in butter, and, conse-* quently, the possibility of fraud or confusion is reduced. On the other hand, they art also subject to close inspection, absolutely close inspection, in the manufacture of this article. If we threw the manufacture wide open and permitted the creameries also to manufacture it, we would have tc provide an immense staff of inspectors to supervise the work in the 1,600 creameries now producing butter in Canada. In addition to that, I, for one, would be very sorry to see this, for the reason that it would be the most severe blow, in my judgment, that could come upon our butter industry. If it had gone abroad throughout Canada and the world that our creamery butter was being produced in establishments where oleomargarine was also being manufactured it would do more than anything else to destroy the reputation of our article.
There was also a suggestion that the regulations in regard to the display of piacards in restaurants and other public eating places were not lived up to. Well, the regulations are very definite and very explicit in that respect. They read:
In all hotels, restaurants and public eating houses where oleomargine is served' there shall be prominently displayed in some conspicuous place a placard containing the words: "Oleomargine Served Here," in capital block letters, not less than one and one-half inches long.
The regulations are very definite and explicit that wherever this article is consumed in a public eating house a placard shall be displayed showing that fact.
Now, in respect to the manufacture, what are the regulations that govern it? They read as follows:
No oleomargarine shall be manufactured in Canada unless it has been manufactured under the supervision of the Minister of Agriculture of Canada and no oleomargarine shall be imported into Canada unless it has been manufactured under the Government supervision in the country of production and is accompanied by satisfactory evidence of such supervision.
The supervision over the manufacture in Canada and oveT the importation lies with the officials under the Veterinary Director General. As hon. members are aware, the control of packing houses, the inspection of meats therein manufactured, the supervision of the slaughter of animals-all these matters are under the jurisdiction of officials of this department, and it was- simply an enlargement of their duties to charge them with the responsibility of seeing also that proper supervision and proper methods are employed in the manufacture of oleomargarine. The sale of the article in retail stores is under the direction of the Dairy Branch of the Department of Agriculture, and it is the duty of the inspectors of the Dairy Branch, who visit the various stores and places of business with a view of seeing that the standard's of butter are maintained, to see that the regulations in respect to the sale of oleomargarine are fully and thoroughly lived up to.
The member for Frontenae (Mr. Edwards) desired to know what' restrictions were placed upon the manufacture of oleomargarine to insure that only wholesome ingredients entered into the product. That is set out in the following regulation:
All material entering into the composition of oleomargarine shall be subject to inspection, and if not approved by an inspector shall not be used. The inspector shall have power at any [DOT]time to take samples of any such material for analysis. No oleo oil or neutral lard shall be used in the manufacture of oleomargarine unless it is the production of an abattoir under the inspection of the Minister of Agriculture of Canada and bears the Government inspection mark, or has been manufactured in the country of origin under inspection satisfactory to the minister, and is at the time of importation covered by the official markings and export inspection certificate of the country of origin.
That means that as far as the manufacture in Canada is concerned', no ingredient can enter into this article unless such ingredient is passed, upon by the inspector who is present.


John Wesley Edwards: Is there any definite
standard as to the percentage of ingredients, such as they have in the United States?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: 
Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Mr. Speaker,
I am sure, after listening


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I must direct hon. member's attention to the .fact that, if the mover of the resolution speaks now, other hon. 'members will be precluded from speaking to the resolution.


Mr. S. F. GLASS (East Middlesex):: Before the hon. gentleman replies, I would like to ask the minister in reference to the' price of feeds fixed for the farmer or consumer. He has pointed out to us very well how the interest of the consumer has 'been guarded 'in fixing the prices, the conditions on which the consumer may go to the miller and obtain feed. The one difficulty I-see, and the difficulty that has been presented to me by those who are interested, is that the conditions imposed upon those milleTS are not honestly carried out, and the consumer does not get the advantage that it is the intention of the Government he should receive. It is said that the Order in Council leaves it open (for the individual to prosecute the miller. My hon. friend no doubt knows that a small consumer, going to a mill for half a ton or a ton of bran, even if he be imposed upon to some extent in the price, is not going to prosecute the miller or to institute legal proceedings which might, in the end involve him in more expense than the little difference in price. Why cannot it be arrangedUbat the price shall foe fixed from time to time, monthly or foi-monthly as the case may foe, and that it 'be understood and established and published so that- the consumer may know exactly what he has to pay? In

reference to that (point, a large number of fanners who were encouraged, and who were almost persuaded to go .more extensively into the hog industry, were dissuaded from following that up by reason of the very fact that I have presented-that, while they were promised cheap feed on terms that seemed reasonable if the Order in Council were properly carried out, they were deprived of that benefit simply by reason of the fact that millers evaded the law or practically paid no attention to it. Some means might be devised toy which the consumer, the individual purchasing his feed from the local mill, might he protected by a monthly or bi-monthly bulletin, or by publication in the agricultural papers, of the prices to be paid.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is rather a difficult matter to get out a schedule of prices week by week governing the sale price of these articles. I still believe that the regulations which have been promulgated, if enforced, will bring the relief that iis desired. Of course, they will not make up the deficiency in the quantity of the feeds we have been discussing, for there has undoubtedly -been a great shortage. But, so far as- controlling the price is- concerned, I believe the regulations will be effective. Not very long ago, in one of the counties of western Ontario- I believe the case was mentioned in a return brought -down the other day-a prosecution was entered against a local miller by the president of a co-operative farmers' society, and a conviction secured, and on the word of the president of that society the prosecution succeeded in remedying the conditions in the county in which he lived.


Mr. J. A. ROBB (Chateauguay-Hunting-don):: I desire very briefly to make a few observations, but not by way of criticism of the introduction of oleomargarine into this country, for the Government are in the favoured position of having all the criticism come from their followers. My hon. friend from 'East Lambton (Mr. Armstrong) in introducing this resolution took very great care to clear the previous Minister of Agriculture and -also the present minister from all responsibility for the Order in Council admitting oleomargarine free into this country, and he seemed to make out a case that was satisfactory to those who supported him. He put all the blame on the food controller, and the thought occurred to us on this side of the House, as it must have occurred to hon. gentlemen opposite. Who is looking after the rights of the agricultural

interests of this country? If neither the previous Minister of Agriculture nor the present Minister of Agriculture is responsible, which one of the twenty-three Cabinet ministers to whom we are paying salaries is safeguarding the country's dairying interest? I leave that thought with the minister in the hope that upon some future occasion he may be able to explain it satisfactorily to the electors. My hon. friend from East Lambton then proceeded to find all manner of fault with the administration of the regulations, and he was followed during the afternoon by other supporters of the Government all condemning the administration of the regulations; so I will leave that to hon. gentlemen opposite.
My hon. friend from Oxford (Mr. Sutherland) made the statement that throughout this country cheeise and butter factories were being put out of business, but he did not go to the root of the trouble and say why they were being put out of business. That story goes back as far as 1911, when, by virtue of a trade arrangement with the United States, we could have had free entry for our butter, milk and cream, and milk -and cream products, to the markets of the United States. The people of Canada refused to accept that proposal, so in 1913 the United States revised their tariff along lines to suit their own people. They said, "If you don't want to trade with us on the basis of the proposed arrangement of 1911, we are going to fix the tariff to suit ourselves and ourselves only." And they proceeded to put milk -and cream on the free list. The result of that legislation was that milk and cream from border towns and counties in Canada immediately began going to the United States.


John Wesley Edwards: For how long? Not more than six months anyway.
Mr.ROBB: It is going there still. Farmers in the county of Huntingdon are shipping milk to the United States to-day because they can get $3 a hundred there as compared with $2.70 in Canada. The result has been that the butter and cheese factories of the western part of the province of Quebec, at all events, have been shut down, and there is consequently a smaller production of butter and cheese in that section.
There was one feature which, so far as I could observe, the minister dodged very cleverly this evening. He did not attempt to explain to the House why we allow oleomargarine to come into this country free of duty when we place a tax upon butter, and

I think the people of this country are entitled to an explanation of that point. Furthermore, I am told that by virtue of some arrangement oleomargarine does not come into this country as freely as people are led to believe, and that its manufacture in Canada is limited to two big companies which have a considerable pull with this Government. I am not going to name them, for I think all hon. gentlemen know who they are. That is also something about which the people of this country will require an explanation from the Minister of Agriculture.
This afternoon several hon. gentlemen opposite in turn, claimed that their part of the country was the best dairying county in Canada. I thought that a little strange, especially on the part of my hon. friends from Ontario, because I had under my hand the prize list of the Toronto Exhibition, which shows that nearly all the prizes for butter went to the province of Quebec, and a few to the province of Manitoba. I might as well put the list on Hansard, so that my hon. friends from Ontario, when they want to buy good butter, will know where to go. The Journal of Agriculture states that in the class for creamery butter, in salted solids, Joseph Dansereau, of Verclieres, carried off the first prize with a score of 97; the second, third and fourth prizes in the salted class also went to Quebec. In the unsalted class, Quebec wfas again first, Achille Fournier, of Gentilly, scoring 97 points. In this class a Manitoba exhibitor took the third prize. The Challenge Trophy for the highest score for creamery butter on exhibition was also won by Achille Fournier, of Gentilly.
We w.ill leave that feature of it and refer to the closing remarks of the hon. Minister of Agriculture in reply to the hon. gentleman from East Middlesex (Mr. Glass) about the price of bran and shorts. The history of the fixing of the price of bran and shorts is perhaps not now known to all hon. gentlemen in this House. I got it first hand from a gentleman who was present at the fixing of the prices, and that gentleman is a supporter of the Conservative party, and, I believe, contributes largely to the campaign funds.


An hon. MEMBER:: There is no such
party.


James Alexander Robb: We'll not now, but there
was onoe. Whan they came together to fix the price it was proposed they should fix it at 824 a ton in bulk, but some said:
Why fix this price in bulk; the trade is accustomed to buying in bags and why not fix the price, bags included, so that people will know the cost? They said:	We are
getting near a general election and it would look better to fix it in bulk because it would be $24 instead of 830. And they fixed it at $24, to look better. That is the history of it, and the price was not long fixed when the friends of the Minister of Agriculture on the Food Control Board who fixed the price down low, and took good care that they should keep all the bran and shorts in western Canada, and 'a member of the Food Control Board absolutely prohibited the mills of western Canada shipping to eastern Canada. That is the simple story, which explains why we have a shortage of (bran and shorts in eastern Canada. They fixed the price low and kept it all to themselves. I have the evidence here, and will be glad to show it to the Minister of Agriculture. I think I can satisfy him that it is correct. I submit, however, to the hon. minister that that is not a fair way of treating the dairy interests. The hon. member for East Lamlbton (Mr. Armstrong) complains of the lax administration of the oleomargarine regulations. As a member of a dairy constituency, 1 submit that the hon. minister is not dealing quite fairly with the dairymen and the stock raisers of eastern Canada in attempting to fix the price of these foodstuffs away down low, and keep them all for western Canada. We are all one country, and we know that the people of western Canada are desirous of promoting the stock industry. I know that the province of Manitoba has made progress in recent years along the line of the dairy industry, but I ask the Minister of Agriculture if it is fair to expect the people of eastern Canada to eat the flour, that tney in western Canada may have cheap bran and shorts. Let me remind him that, according to regulations fixed by himself, you only get 26 bags of bran for every 74 bags of flour. That is important. You cannot run a flour mill unless you sell your flour, and it is eastern Canada that eats that flour. Is it fair that we should be asked to pay the high price for flour and get none of the 'bran and shorts? I leave these thoughts for the consideration of the Minister of Agriculture, in the hope that as Minister of Agriculture for all Canada he will take a broader view of it, and not attempt to narrow things down. If western Canada expects eastern Canada to help them along in the legislation they require from time to time they must be prepared to deal fairly with eastern Canada.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: 
An hon. MEMBER:: Sure, they are.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: 
Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Yes.
Motion withdrawn.



PRIVILEGE.


Mr. W. DUFF (Lunenburg):: I rise to speak to a question of privilege. I regret that it is necessary for -me to do so, hut the matter to which I desire to refer is a very important one and affects imy honour as a gentleman, my standing with my fellow members of the House of Commons, and my loyalty as a subject of His Majesty (the King. If I were not a new member, it might not be necessary to take this step, but I wish to retain the good opinion of hon. gentlemen in this House with whom I am acquainted, -and- also to attain the respect of a great many hon. gentlemen with whom I am not acquainted.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The hon. member is not taking the proper course. I assume that he purposes submitting his case by a document which he has in his hand. If he desires to make an explanation, he may do so, but he cannot make an extended speech.


William Duff: The procedure of the House is new to me. I do not intend- to make any extended remarks. I shall make my statement as brief as -possible, and endeavour to keep within the rules of the House.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Upon what ground does the hon. member rise to a question of privilege?


William Duff: On the ground that false statements are being made against me in the press of the country.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: If the hon. member will read the statements and make his denial, he may proceed.


William Duff: I wish to finish the sentence I had commenced. I feel it incumbent upon me to make explanation of certain statements published in a newspaper in the city of'Ottawa. These statements are contained in issues of the Journal-Press of March 21st, March 26th and Apri-l 3rd. With your permission, Mr. Speaker, in order to make this matter as short as possible, I will not read the articles, unless you, Sir, or the House wishes me to do so. I have made a short summary of the contents of the articles, and with your permission I ask to have the statements contained in the newspaper placed on Hansard, and then I shall deal with these statements.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: It is not in order to
have any printed matter flh-at is not read

included in Hansard. If the hon. member -will summarize it, he is quite in order in doing so. It would not he in order to read any extended articles from newspapers.
Mr, DUFF:	I did not intend to read
any more than this summary and I was trying to save the time of 'the House by not reading these articles. But, in my defence it as necessary for me to say something -about 'them'. Consequently I think I should be allowed to read a citation from these articles.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: If the hon. member purposes (to enter into a defence, he will not be in order. If there lis any statement that he wishes to deny, be can do so, but he must not enter, oir attempt to enter, into an argument or to make an ex parte defence.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: Might I suggest that he cannot defend himself unless he reads the matter of which he complains?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: If the hon. member has a specific 'article which he wishes to read and in regard to which he wishes to -make denial, he will be quite in order but if he .should read every paper in Canada which published that article, he will not be in order.


William Duff: The article in. the Journal
of March 21 sayis:
Mr. Duff was surety on a mail contract which it is claimed disqualifies him from taking his seat. As there is a fine of $10'O a day penalty for a disqualified member sitting in the House, Mr. Duff has evidently decided not to take chances. Mr. E. N. Lewis, now Judge Lewis, was similarly disqualified in 1904, when he was elected for West Huron.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Order. If the hon. member purposes to deny that he was surety on a mail contract I do not .see how it can be regarded as a question of privilege. It may )be .a question of law .as to whether the hon. member is entitled to take his .seat but it is not a question of privilege.


William Duff: This article continues:
Unionist members claim that he not only -never gave any assistance to recruiting, but that he discouraged enlistment and that his utterances were responsible for many young men trying to evade the Military Service Law. Some, it Is claimed, have since been put in jail as a result of the encouragement given them by Mr. Duff.
A correspondent writing in the Journal March 21 says:
Mr. Duff is not clear in connection with the Military Service Act and no Government, particularly a Union Government, should pass
an Act permitting such a man to sit in this war Parliament until the charges made against him are disproved.
It is a known fact, admitted1 by Mr. Duff, that he refused, when Mayor of the town of Lunenburg, to allow Rev. Mr. Campbell to speak on recruiting at a fisherman's picnic.


Robert Laird Borden: To what is the hon. gentleman (Mr. Duff) speaking?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I understood the hon. member wished to make a personal explanation. Had he followed the course which he proposed when he consulted me this afternoon, and made it a brief statement, it would have been quite sufficient. I have been endeavouring to assist the hon. member in doing that. If he does not see fit to pursue that course I shall have to ask (him to resume his seat.


William Duff: Air. Speaker


Robert Laird Borden: I submit that the proper time for any explanation is on the Orders of the Day and that the rules of the House ought to be observed in that respect. This- is the first time within my experience in which a question of this kind has been interposed in the midst of an order for motions.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: A question of privilege is always in order provided another hon. member is not upon his feet. But the hon. member for Lunenburg is not taking the proper course in rising to a question of privilege. If he did so he would .ask that the article about which he complains should be read at the Table by the Clerk of the House and there should be a motion founded upon that. But there has arisen in. this House in recent years the indulgent custom of permitting hon. members to make personal explanations which have been treated as matters of privilege. As long as they confine themselves. within reasonable bounds, in view of that custom, I am disposed to give hon. members every-latitude, but the hon. member must not proceed in the course he is at present pursuing.
Sir ROBERT BORDEN; As far as my recollection goes, such personal explanations a,s those to which, you allude, Sir, are always made in the ordinary course before the Orders of the Day are called. I have never known any deviation from that practice and I would think it undesirable that we should begin a deviation now.


Wilfrid Laurier: I might observe that my right hon. friend the Prime Minister was not in the House when the matter arose, and when Mr. Speaker permitted the hon. member (Air. Duff) who

complains to make a statement and explanation.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I should explain to the House that the hon. member for Lunenburg consulted me this afternoon and I advised him that he could not take the course which he has been endeavouring to take. I told him that if he would read a paragraph in the newspaper which contained the substance of the matter about which he complained, and make a denial, he would be in order. If the hon. member does that, he will be permitted to proceed; otherwise I shall have to ask him to resume his seat.


William Duff: I regret that I have not been able to keep within the rules of the House, but my apology is that I am not sufficiently acquainted with them. Perhaps I can put it in this short form and it 'vpll enable me to conclude in just about a minute. These articles say that .1 discouraged enlistment; that I was hindering recruiting; that I was opposing the enforcement of the Conscription Act in my public speeches; that I was interfering with the chief of police in the town of which I am mayor; that I was advising young men not to register; that my utterances were responsible for men evading the Military Service Act; that some men were placed in jail as a result of the encouragement given them by me; that I refused to allow Mr. Campbell to speak at a fisherman's picnic; that I was opposed to sending soldiers overseas; that I advised the bringing back of our boys fighting overseas, and that I was involved in unpatriotic acts. Now, Mr. Speaker-


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Order; I must ask the hon. member to resume his seat. The hon. member is exceeding his right.


Wilfrid Laurier: The hon.
gentleman wants to qualify these statements, and I think he should be allowed to quote them.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: If the hon. member had proceeded to read the article and to make his denial, I would have permitted him to proceed.


Wilfrid Laurier: He has just done it.


William Duff: I wish to give an absolute and unqualified denial to these statements. There is absolutely no truth in them at all.
I also wish to say that my loyalty and my attitude in regard to the war are called in question. I am as loyal as any man in Canada. With regard to the war, I wish to say that I believe in the principles for
[Sir Wilfrid Laurier.l
which the Allied Governments, and especially the Governments of Great Britain and the United States are fighting. I believe the cause is a noble one, and is in the interests of democracy, liberty, truth and righteousness, and that every effort should be put forth by the people of Canada to back up the stand which the British Government has taken in this war. As far as I am personally concerned, whether as a private citizen or as a member of the House of Commons, I will do everything in my power, either by my vote or by my personal influence, to bring this war to a successful conclusion in favour of the cause of the Allied Governments.


Mr. GAUVREAU:: Noble sentiments.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Order; the hon. member is going beyond reasonable bounds.



PREVENTION OF FUEL SHORTAGE.

Hon. RODOLPHE LEMIEUX (Maison-neuve) moved:: That, in the opinion of this House, the present inadequate coal supply in Canada makes it imperative on the part of the Government to take immediate action with a view to prevent the possibility of any fuel shortage during next winter season.
He said: Mr. Speaker, bn many occasions during the twenty-two years that I have had the honour to sit in this Parliament, stock has been taken of our natural resources, but I must say that the speeches which tvere delivered on those occasions were more of an academic than of a practical nature. Last year my hon. friend from East Lambton (Mr. Armstrong) moved a resolution on the very subject which I intend to discuss this evening. His speech on that resolution was supported by statistics and by most valuable information. This year, I do not wish to steal a march on that hon. gentleman, although he has a motion on the Order Paper in regard to the question of coal. But as I do regard the present situation as most serious, I would like to test the views of the Government on the present fuel shortage in Canada.
We have just passed through a very severe winter, and we know now what troubles are ahead of us if we do not at the present moment take stock of our situation as regards coal and if we do not foresee the consequences attendant upon a further shortage. I must say first, Mr. Speaker, that I was pleased to learn of the appointment of Mr. C. A. Magrath as fuel controller for Canada. Every body regards Mr. Magrath as a most deserving and con-

scientious official, and I believe that during the few months he has held that office he has made good. I noticed the other day a press despatch from Washington, dated March 23rd, stating that Mr. Magrath had obtained some very valuable concessions from the American Government. By arrangement with the United States Fuel Administration, he has been granted for Canada a considerable tonnage, and he has the privilege, for the period mentioned in the order, of calling upon the Fuel Administration in the United States to issue permits to any shippers who apply to him; and it is stated further in the despatch that allotments of coal to Canada during the past season were made upon the same basis as if Canada had been one of the states of the Union. This expresses a splendid sentiment towards Canada on the part of the United States Government, and we are all pleased that Mr. Magrath has been able to obtain such excellent results. But, Mr. Speaker, we had very, very trying times last winter in our country. We had heatless days, a condition unknown in Canada before last winter. I happened to be in New York on the 31st December last, and when I saw so many large skyscrapers absolutely closed, and when, reading the New York Post on my way home, I learned that during that day in twelve hours eleven persons in that large and enterprising city had died of exposure because of the coal shortage, the shortage toeing caused partly by railway congestion and partly toy scarcity of labour, it dawned upon me that we in Canada were exposed to hours of great anxiety in the near future. As we are in a large degree dependent upon the United States for coal, especially we of the provinces of Ontario and Quelbec, it seems to me that it is the paramount duty of the Dominion Government to provide for future emergencies. Now that the winter is over is the time for the Government to really govern, (because to govern means to foresee. My resolution, I am pleased to say, is not presented in any carping or hostile spirit; I simply want some information from the Government.
Two days ago I noticed in the press that the United States Government had taken very stringent measures for the coming season. And we must remember that it is from the United States that we import such large quantities of bituminous and anthracite coal yet necessary. The coal business in the United States is now under the exclusive control of the Federal Government, so that there will be no more price pirating; the selling agent is to be forced out;
licenses are to be issued, and coal zones are being created within which the distribution of coal will toe localized. This is a very drastic measure. As regards our dependence on the United States with regard to fuel generally, let me say what, after all, is a truism, that we are practically at the mercy of any strike in the American coal mining districts or any industrial disorganization in the United States over which we have absolutely no control. A coal or railway strike in that country would seriously, if not fatally, affect the Dominion of Canada. But leaving aside the matter of labour conditions in the United States, there is another eventuality which we must face. The coal fields of that country are far from being inexhaustible, and the time may come when the American Government will put an embargo on the export of coal. In 1908, when President Roosevelt convened at Washington a meeting of the Governors of the various States and some of the leading officials and industrial experts of the Union, he used the following language:
This nation-
His words apply to Canada as well.
This nation began with the belief that its landed possessions were illimitable and capable of supporting all the people who might care to make our country their home; but already the limit of unsettled land is in sight, and, indeed, but little land fitted for agriculture now remains unoccupied save what can be reclaimed by irrigation and drainage. We began with an unapproachable heritage of forests; more than half of the timber is gone.
And, Mr. Speaker, he added the following ominous words:
We began with coal fields more extensive than those of any other nation and with iron ores regarded as inexhaustible, and many experts now declare that the end of both iron and coal is in sight. The enormous stores of minerals, oils and gas are largely gone.
This warning of the ex-Preeident to the Governors of the various states of the Union brought into existence the Conservation Commission of the United States, and, indirectly, by reaction, the 'Conservation Commission of Canada. I need not dilate on the beneficial effects of the conservation of natural resources or the splendid work done by our Conservation Commission. But we are nevertheless facing a very serious problem-that of coal shortage. Apart from food, raiment and shelter, nothing is so necessary or so essential as fuel for the maintenance of life and for the (carrying on of commerce and transportation. Though we are not dependent on the United States for our entire fuel supply, we must obtain

from them fifty-five per cent of our coal requirements. This is a matter of grave import, as artificial heat must he supplied in this country during seven or eight months of the year, if only for the purpose of maintaining life.
Let us see in just a few sentences what are the present fuel requirements of Canada. I (borrow my figures from a very interesting paper read (before the Mining Engineers' Association in Montreal a few weeks ago by Dr. Haanel, one of our officials here. In 1916, nearly 30,000,000 tons of coal, 299,426,121 imperial gallons of crude and refined oil products, and firewood valued ait aJbout $60,000,000 were required in Canada. During that year the railways burned 9,000,000,000 tons of bituminous coal; 7,000,000 tons were required for generating power and a large quantity was used for town gas, heating large (buildings, and manufacturing feoke. Anthracite coal to the amount of 4,000,000 tons was burned in domestic and1 other heating plants and for industrial purposes. In normal times, however, anthracite is largely used for heating purposes. Compared with these fuel requirements of Canada, what was the production of fuel in thie country during the same year? In 1916, 14,483,395 tons of (bituminous coal were produced in Canada, of which we exported 2,135,359 tons. Canada produced 6,934,288 imperial gallons of crude oil, and wood, fuel was burned to the value of approximately $60,000,000. So that- to meet our requirements it was necessary to import 17,580,603 tons of coal and 292,426,100 imperial gallons of crude and refined oil product. This indicates the extent of our dependence on the United States for these essential commodities.
I said a moment ago that the coal fields in the United 'States are not inexhaustible, and I quoted the words of President Roosevelt in 1908, at the time of the creation of the American Conservation Commission. I have, in the report of our Commission of Conservation of 1917, the opinion of a gentleman well known in Canada, Mr. W. J. Dick, mining engineer, which confirms the assertion made by President Roosevelt. Mr Dick, in a paper on problems relating to the mining industry of Canada says:
The supply of anthracite coal in the United States is limited and there is no assurance that its export to Canada will be long continued. In 1913, it was estimated that there were 16,153,000,000 tons of anthracite coal in the United States. In 1913, 91,524,922 tons were mined and, as it has been estimated that for every ton of coal lost, a ton and a half of coal is sold or used, the exhaustion is proceeding at the rate of over 152,000,000 tons per annum.
If production continued at the same rate, it [Mr. l.omieux. J
would exhaust the anthracite of the United States in little over 100 years. We must, therefore, expect that the price will gradually increase. Coincidentally with the rise in price, production will decrease, thus prolonging the life of the mines.
We have here confirmation of the words uttered in 1908 toy President Roosevelt. Mr. Dick predicts that within a century there will toe no more anthracite coal mined or exported from the United States. Canada has seventeen per cent of the world's coal reserve. Yet our production is relatively small. We import more than we produce. Are such conditions to remain as they are, or must they not be changed? T do not wish to weary the House with any statistics because they can toe found in any blue-book. Suffice it to s.ay that the fuel resources of Canada exist in the vast coalfields of the extreme eastern and western portions of Canada, in the lignite fields of the western provinces, in the natural gas fields of western Canada and Ontario, in the petroleum oil fields of Ontario, in the oil shales of New (Brunswick and Nova Scot!a, in the standing forests, and, finally, in the peat bogs in great areas, chiefly in central Canada. As to the distribution of our fuel resources, there are four classical districts, if I may so speak, each of which has an abundance of fuel peculiar to its own area. The first district is that portion of western Canada which can be economically supplied with bituminous and anthracite coal. The second district is that portion that can he supplied with lignite. The fourth district is that portion which is richly served by Nova Scotia coal. But the third district cannot be supplied with the above co-als; it must thus-be dependent upon the United States, or must develop and utilize its excellent peat bogs, and this is the case of the provinces of Ontario and Quebec. What shall we do? Here are, in my humble judgment, some of the remedies that suggest themselves. First, we can proceed-and I am speaking by the book, because I have read some literature on the subject in the Commission of Conservation report and in some of the papers which have been read lately before the Institute of Mining Engineers-with the intensive exploitation of our peat hogs. In yesterday's Globe, I find that a special committee was appointed by the Canadian Manufacturers' Association to study that phase of the subject of fuel supply. I find here, summed up, the estimated peat resources of Canada:
The engineers of the Department of Mines entertain no doubt as to the enormous extent of our peat deposits.

Seven bogs within convenient shipping distances of Toronto are estimated to be capable of producing approximately 26,500,000 tons of fuel; and seven bogs in the vicinity of Montreal could supply that city with 23,500,000 tons of fuel.	*
Five bogs along thfe lower St. Lawrence, conveniently situated as regards water transportation to the city of Quebec, can, it is estimated, supply 16,250,000 tons of fuel and 5,700,000 tons of peat litter.
The bogs examined in Nova Scotia can produce 6,200,000 tons of fuel and 500,000 tons of peat litter, and those of Prince Edward Island can produce, 1,250,000 tons of fuel and over 1,000,000 tons of peat litter.
In Manitoba the aggregate fuel contents of the bogs is estimated at less than 2,000,000 tons. One bog alone, however, it has been estimated, is capable of furnishing 2,500,000 tons of peat litter.
Dr. Haanel, who is our great expert, speaking on the economical operation and utilization of our peat hogs-I do not wish to inflict on the House the reading of all his suggestions, but I may be pardoned if I just give a few lines-says:
The only economic process in existence to-day-
That is, in order to utilize economically the peat bogs.
-is that which employs the forces of nature -the sun and the wind-for the removal of the moisture. The process employing these forces is called the "wet process," and the product obtained is termed "machine peat." This is the process which the Mines Branch, Department of Mines, demonstrated at the Government peat plant at Alfred, Ontario. We not only have the process for manufacturing peat fuel, but also sufficient detailed information concerning peat bogs of immediate importance, to make a good start in the formation of a peat industry. During the period covering the past ten years, the Mines Branch has completely investigated' and mapped 58 Canadian bogs, all of which are situated conveniently with respect to inhabited and industrial communities, and also well situated with respect to railway and other transportation facilities.
He concludes by saying:
Excellent bogs are likewise conveniently situated with respect to thickly inhabited communities in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and other parts of Canada.
After describing tihe rich peait bogs of Central Canada he advises that the Government should take the matter in hand at the earliest opportunity in order that this fuel may be utilized.
iHe says:
Not* until the utilization of a natural substance is forced by absolute necessity will the most sincere and earnest efforts be put forth to successfully and economically convert it into a usable product. It appears to me the time is at hand wben necessity will decide that we Canadians utilize our peat resources, and in the most efficient manner.
There the alarm bell is sounded, and the Government should pay heed to the advice given by this well-known expert and start in at once to utilize our peat bogs. Another course which suggests itself for the utilization of our resources against the eventuality of an embargo on coal from the United States is the treatment of lignite, which is found m such large beds all over the province of Saskatchewan. Mr. Haanel deals with this question also in his pamphlet. He says:	-
The utilization of certain of the lignites for some purposes is possible without any subsequent treatment. With others, notably those of Saskatchewan, the lignites as mined are not suitable for use. This is due to the physical and chemical properties peculiar -to this type of fuel. The characteristics of lignites must be altered before they can be converted into a satisfactory fuel. Experiments on a commercial scale have demonstrated beyond a doubt that our lignites cannot be briquetted in the raw state without the addition of a binder. Briquettes made in this manner appear on casual examination to be entirely satisfactory, but when submitted to a water test or when burnt they will invariably disintegrate. The establishment of briquetting plants at strategic points throughout the lignite provinces of the west would very greatly help in reducing our dependency for fuels upon other sources. While the domestic fuel is of course of first importance, lignite briquetting industries would prove also of great value to the railways traversing the lignite belts. It would even be within the realm of possibility to economically supply at least a portion of the province of Ontario with this class of fuel.
Another remedy wihieh suggests itself in the way of more intense production is the development of our oil resources. Professor Haanel in this paper says:
Our domestic production of oil cannot be increased without great effort and the expenditure of considerable money, but provision must be made, and immediately to provide against the time not far distant, when the United States will be compelled to cease exporting her crude and refined oil products.
I have already said (that Mr. Roosevelt, backed by Mr. Dick, has stated that within a hundred years there will be no more anthracite coal mined in .the United States, and therefore no more anthracite coal to export, and Mir. Haanel now states that within 30 or 35 years no more oil will be exported from the United States ; which means we must tap our own resources and develop them as economically as possible. Mr. Haanel says:
The United States up to the year 1915 had exhausted 32 per cent of her possible petroleum resources. If the present annual production is maintained, but not increased, her total crude oil supplies will be exhausted in less than thirty years. But if the present rate of increase of production is maintained, total exhaustion will occur in a much shorter time.

With regard to oil possibilities in Canada he says:
We can scarcely hope for some time to come to produce oil on a scale comparable with our demands, but we can appreciably reduce the quantity which must be imported. Our total oil production from all sources might probably be increased to 120,000,000 gallons, by erecting oil shale distillation plants in New Brunswick, with a combined capacity of 100,000,000 gallons and by increasing the quantity of coal coked in by-product ovens or by carbonizing large quantities of bituminous coal at low temperature, and briquetting the carbonized residue. The low temperature carbonization and briquetting of Nova Scotia coal either in Nova Scotia or at some centre of distribution favourably situated1 with respect to water transportation, as Montreal, for example, would not only appreciably increase our production of oils but would also be the means of supplying for domestic purposes a coal equal in many respects to anthracite. The fuel situation of some parts at least of Ontario might in this manner be much improved. If this idea were carried out our oil production would be: From oil shales 100,000,000 gallons ; from coke ovens and low temperature carbonization 14,000,000 gallons, and from Ontario petroleum fields 6,000,000 gallons, making a total of 120,0<00,000 gallons.
We icould .also (help to alleviate the present fuel shortage by developing our water-powers .and our hydro-electric energy. I do not wish to bore the House with this question, as we shall hear about hydroelectric energy in the course of this Session, but perhaps I might be permitted to remind my hon. friends that Mr. Roosevelt has sounded the alarm not only with regard to the ooal fields of the United States, hut also with regard to the water-powers, and his words apply 'equally to the waiter-powers of Canada.
Mr. Roosevelt said:
The people of this country are threatened by a monopoly far more powerful, because in far closer touch with their domestic and industrial life, than anything known to our experience. A single generation will see the exhaustion of our natural resources of oil and gas, and such a rise in the price of coal as will make the price of electrically transmitted water-power a controlling factor in transportation, in manufacturing, and in household lighting and heating. Our water-power alone, if fully developed and wisely used, is probably sufficient for our present transportation, industrial, municipal and domestic needs. Most of it is undeveloped, and is still in National or State control. To give away without conditions this, one of the greatest of our resources, would be an act of folly.
The question of state ownership, as regards hydro-electric energy, is one which might engage the attention of Parliament. I wish only to call to the attention of the members of the House the importance for Canada, as a quid pro quo, in case of a coal 'embargo, of public ownership of our water-

power system. The total possible horse power of Canada is estimated to be 18,203,000, and the developed horse power of Canada is only 1,813,200. I think the greatest national wealth of Canada to-day, bar none, is the watter-powers of the country. We have in Ontario and Quebec, and partially in the West, if properly harnessed and if controlled by the Government, an asset of inestimable value.
Now, another remedy which suggests itself for this fuel shortage is not only the exploitation of our peat bogs, the treatment of our lignites, the treatment and development of the shale rocks of Canada, and the development of our hydro-electric system, hut also the elimination of customs duties, war tax, etc., upon material and machinery needed for the exploitation and development of those different resources. Some time later in the session I will make a motion, just to test the views of the Government with regard to this question of tariff on material and machinery used for the development of our natural resources. It is a tentative motion; I placed it on the Order Paper last year, but it came to grief.
During the present session I intend to make the following motion:
That it is the opinion of the House that His Majesty's Government should make provision to prevent any recurrence of the late threatened scarcity of fuel.
That the present import duties and war tax, levied upon the material and machinery required for the construction of new hydroelectric power development, and for the desired electrical equipment of certain of Canada's steam railroads, also for the construction and equipment of works to produce peat fuel, fuel from lignite and to recover the oil contents of certain Canadian deposits of shale carrying oil, prevents the construction of such much to be desired plants and works.
That it is desirable that such power plants and fuel producing works should be developed and constructed, without further loss of time, and that to secure and encourage such development and construction, it is hereby resolved that during the continuance of the present war in Europe the import duties and war tax, now levied upon such material and machinery as are required for the development and construction of said power plants and fuel producing works shall no longer be so levied.
Here are, in a few words, the suggestions I have to offer the Government on this question of fuel shortage. It is
10 p.m. a very serious question for Canada and we shall have to face it very soon .as the spring .and summer will pass away in less time than we imagine. We shall be confronted next winter with a situation which might well appal the people of Canada. We know how certain homes suffered last winter. In the city of Ottawa, the capital of the Dominion, there

was misery, and if it had not been for the City Council of Ottawa and its worthy Mayor we would have had people actually freezing in many a home. The winter will soon be upon us, because we have practically no spring in Canada. We are actually at the opening of' summer, but we know it is of short duration. Winter will come and I beseech the Government that this is a proper time to study this question and to solve it, if it is possible of solution. The Government have appointed a Scientific Research Commission composed of some of the most distinguished scientists of 'Canada. I know Professor Macallum, a man who is imbued with the idea of service to his country. I hope that the 'Government will give Professor Macallum and his colleagues of the Scientific Research Commission the widest scope possible, in order to experiment and find a solution to the very serious problem I have placed before the House this evening.


Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN (Minister of the Interior):: The Minister of Trade and Commerce ('Sir George Poster), in whose department this subject falls, is not able to be in the House to-night. It is a matter of regret that, under those circumstances, the hon. gentleman should not have thought convenient to postpone the moving of the resolution.
Mr, LEMIEUX: I was asked by my hon. friend the Minister of Railways and Canals (Hon. Mr. Reid) if I would not postpone it. At first I did not yield, but a few minutes afterwards I told him that, if he wished me to postpone it, I was quite ready to do so.


Arthur Meighen: 
Mr. S. E. ELKIN (St. John City):: Mr. Speaker, I had not intended' to say anything on this motion, reserving any remarks that I intended to make for the motion on the Order Paper standing in the name of the hon. member for East Lambton (Air. Armstrong). But there is a possibility that his motion may not be reached for some time, and I think, in justice to the people of Canada, especially those in the lower provinces, for whom I speak at the present moment, it is time that the Government take upon themselves seriously the matter of the fuel controller. The fuel controller is a joke, and we might as well face it. Last fall we had a visit from the fuel controller in our section. I may say frankly that owing to his visit to the Maritime Provinces, in the city of St. John alone we started in the month of November and continued throughout the very severe winter 15,000 tons of coal short. Why? Because, the fuel controller said that he was going to reduce prices, and he scared the people from buying coal. The result was that the coal remained in the bins of the coal merchants. They did not have room to put any more in; they could not import any, and we found ourselves this spring without the coal that normally would have been in the bins of the householders. Now, in January I took the trouble to take this matter up in. Washington with Air. Magrath. I pointed out to him the difficulties that we were going to face in the Maritime Provinces for coal in the coming winter of 1918-19. He informed me that we would have to burn soft coal in the lower provinces this coming winter, and that it would be just as well to go home and tell our people to change their grates so that they could burn soft coal. I thought that was rather strange, so next morning I took the trouble to go down and see Dr. Nasmith, the Chief of Staff of the United States Fuel Administration, and I was informed that on and after the first day of April coal would (be permitted to be ex-

ported from the United States, particularly anthracite coal, in the same proportion that it had moved for an average of three years previous to, the war. I immediately acquainted our coal authorises in the lower provinces with that fact, and they got busy to secure their coal supply. What did we find not later than last Friday? That the fuel controller in this country has made absolutely no arrangements for Canadian schooners in the port of New York, waiting for coal, to get their cargo. He should have made that arrangement with the United States Shipping Board, and now is not the time to consider it. He had fair warning two months ago. The result is that at present we have no coal in St. John, and there is very little in the province. This is the time of year when, as a rule, we begin to put in our anthracite coal for the following winter. For some reason or another, the fuel controller is playing into the hands of the big interests in Nova Scotia who produce coal. If we are to have a fuel controller, let him be a fuel controller. I listened with much interest to what the hon. gentleman (Hon. Mr. Meighen) said about the wonderful machinery that has been laid out for the fuel controller. ' That machinery was in operation last June.


Arthur Meighen: Oh, no.


Stanley Edward Elkin: Absolutely, that machinery was in operation last June. I could point to two or three men who were appointed by the fuel controller in the different provinces to act as his deputies. It is the same machinery exactly. I repeat that the fuel controller should be a fuel controller. Why was it that last year we in the lower provinces had to wait for bituminous coal while the Canadian Government railways imported the coal in their own steamers and handed it over to the Canadian Pacific rather than put the Canadian Pacific to the expense of taking it out of their bunkers? Why was it that last winter, when we needed coal that was consigned to our dealers in the lower provinces, simply because the Canadian Government railways did not have bunkers to put it in, they took the coal from the cars, and our people went without it? That is not fuel control; I think we ought to have a real fuel controller. It was reported some time ago that our Mr. Magrath was to resign, and the view was expressed that he should stay on. We should have .a fuel controller, and if Mr. Magrath is not the man to do this work, the appointment of another man to 
take his place should be seriously considered.


Joseph Read: Union Government.


Stanley Edward Elkin: I have in my possession a statement over the signature of as reliable a man in the Maritime Provinces as you would want to know, that instructions have been issued by the fuel controller that coal may be moved to Ontario points, but not to lower province points.
I have not at hand a good deal of what I had intended to say this evening, and it will be necessary for me to curtail my remarks. I did not feel, however, that I could allow this motion to go by without calling the attention of the Government and of the House to the seriousness of this situation. It will not do to say that this matter will be taken up in April, in May, or in June; it will be too late then. Our production of bituminous coal must be looked after. If we cannot get the labour in this country to get the coal out, we will have to import the labour. I understand that the matter has been before Council; certainly it has not come before the House since I have been here. But we have to face the situation; unless we get bituminous coal, and get it quickly; unless we get production under way, half our industries will be closed next year. It is a well known fact that the fuel controller is a member of the War Trade Board; it would be interesting for Council to know how often he has attended the meetings of that body, with which he is supposed to co-operate. I have it on good authority that he has hardly attended a meeting of the War Trade Board, under the jurisdiction of which all these matters are supposed to come. I hope that the Government will not consider these remarks of mine as, a criticism of the Administration.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


Stanley Edward Elkin: Mr. Magrath was appointed before the formation of Union Government; nevertheless, a certain amount of responsibility rests on this Government to see that if Mr. Magrath's department is not administered as it should be, a remedy is applied very quickly.


Mr. D. D. McKENZIE (Cape Breton North and Victoria):: coining up the river St. Lawrence to the head of navigation, where the coal can be stored in large .quantities, and from the storing places it can be distributed throughout the country when the proper time 'for distribution comes. If the Government take advantage of the navigation season they can collect this coal from Nova Scotia and from the West and other places and put it in a proper position so that the Government will control it. They will get their money for it. There is no trouble about that. The people will buy the coal, and it will pay them to give good prices for is now because you know, 'Sir, when the winter comes, when transportation is difficult and the roads are blocked, people have to pay extraordinary prices for tiheir coal; whereas, if provision is made .at the propej time and coal is stored at a place from which i.t can easily be distributed, exorbitant prices need not be extracted from the people. They will then be in a position to pay the Government .a fair profit on its investment, and the country will be secure from distress caused by lack of fuel. I wish to point out that we have in this Dominion any quantity of coal. The mining of coal of course, requires m>ainy men, bait the mining is nolt carried on. to-day las it was twenty or twenty-five years ago; to-day we mine coal largely by machinery, and it does not require so many men now to produce coal as it did in former days.
Let me conclude by assuring the Minister of itflie Interior and every member of the Government of that concerning which I really need not assure them-because they know it now-that we have in the province of Nova Scotia in this magnificent belt ol which I have spoken abundance of coal. From the plants and mines established there, we can produce splendid fuel; and while, we have adundanoe of it, there need not be any suffering in this country, so far as warmth from fuel is concerned. As we have that fuel and the means of producing it, I hope the Government will go. direct to the point, .and, avoiding this multiplicity of wheels and schemes and Orders in Councils, that (they will get the coal, put themselves in possession of it and be in position to distribute it to the people when they really require it.


Mr. T. M. TWEEDIE (Calgary West):: I have listened with interest to the discussion on .this question and in particular to the excellent .address delivered by the mover of the resolution. While I agree with many matters that have been brought up, I can-

not agree with the remarks made .by the bon. member for St. John ((Mr. Elkin) when he said that the fuel controller of this Government was a joke, because I believe, if this Govemmemt has in its employ or under its jurisdiction a man who is worthy of tlhe confidence of the Government and of the people of the Dominion of Canada, and .a man who is held in high respect and esteem by all classes of the people apart from their political affiliations, it is Mr. C. A. Magrath, fuel controller of the Dominion. I have known Mr. Magraltih for many years, .and it is very unfair that any lion, member, should make an attack on him personally when he has not the privilege of occupying a seat on the floor of this House, and is, therefore, unable to defend himself. For Mr. Magrath I hold no brief, but I speak of him only as I have personally found him, from my knowledge of his long connection with western life in Canada and the great service which .he has rendered in the development of that country. He is a gentleman who has been successful in his own private life and in. the public positions which he has. occupied in this country, and he has rendered valuable services to this Dominion in connection with the international waterways and as fuel controller, the position he now occupies. The criticisms are not fair, because, if you examine them, you will find they are based on, the simple fact that the Dominion Government has not had schooners in New York in order to take anthracite coal to St. John so that the people of that city may store it this spring, and then sit down and enjoy the heat next winter. The advice given by Mr. Magrath to my hon. friend was good, sound advice. Mr. Magrath, told him: You had better go home and tell your people to fit their grates up for bituminous coal. Is that not sound advices? Are they not in the centre of a district which produces more bituminous coal than any other district in the Dominion? Have they not the coal fields of Pictou, Inverness, Victoria, Cape Breton and Cumberland to draw upon? Can they not go there at any time during the summer and can they not go to .some of those ports, even in the winter and load their schooners with bituminous coal and take it to 'St. John, to keep the people in that city warm? If he was told by the director of fuel in the United States that there weuld (be 2,500,000 tons of anthracite coal coming to this country, and if he was told by Mr. Magrath that none of that would Ibe distributed in the Maritime Provinces, I feel that Mr. Magrath would be doing his duty, and this

Government would be doing their duty if they restricted the importation of that coal to the province of Ontario and that portion of the Dominion which lies west, including Manitoba and part of Saskatchewan. My hon. friend must realize that in Ontario we have no watercourses except some lakes, that in Manitoba and Saskatchewan we have no watercourses by which we can bring this anthracite coal from Pennsylvania. He must realize that one of the most serious problems we have had in the West in connection with the coal situation has been railway transportation, coupled with the labour problems which have been referred to by the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Meighen). Does my hon. friend think that Mr. Magrath is going to give the people of the Maritime Provinces all that portion of the anthracite coal which they would 'like to have, because they have base-burners and .because anthracite coal is cleaner to handle, and, perhaps, gives out more heat? He must realize that we have passed through a very strenuous period during the past winter when hundreds of ocean-going boats were held up in Atlantic ports because of fuel shortage. He must realize that difficulty arose in regard to transportation over which the fuel controller of this country had no jurisdiction or control. He must realize that every part of this country has suffered from want of co al. He must realize that manufacturing industries have doubled their output during the past year; that they have been working night and day, and that it is more essential to this country that those factories he kept working than that people in New Brunswick and the Maritime Provinces be allowed to get in their usual supply of anthracite coal in order that they may live a little more luxuriously.	.


Mr. W. A. BUCHANAN (Lethbridge):: J d-o not represent a part of the country that is suffering from fuel shortage; in our part of the country we have all we require and are able to supply a good portion of western Canada. But I would like to offer a suggestion to the Government, and it relates somewhat to the question of anthracite coal mentioned by my hon. friend from West Calgary (Mr. Tweedie). The mirlSs of western Canada unquestionably could supply the demands of western Canada, if the transportation facilities were available, and if we could always be sure of the conditions of the labour market. Given those conditions, all the anthracite coal at present going into Manitoba and parts of Saskatchewan could go to Ontario, for instance, where the shortage is the
greatest. But it is necessary first of all to make sure of the transportation facilities in order to get coal from the mines of Alberta east to the provinces of Saskatchewan and Manitoba. It is also important that the labour market should be assured all the year round. The chief difficulty with the mines of western Canada at present is that they are not sure of an all-the-year-round market, month in and month out, and until that is remedied it will be impossible to have a steady supply of labour, because miners are dissatisfied if they can secure only four or five months' work with one mine owner, and during the rest of the year have to look around for employment at other occupations. If we could arrange to provide the mines of western Canada with the entire western Canada market, it would assist to a great extent in meeting the labour situation. Of course, there has been the difficulty that western Canada coal has lost some of its fuel value when in storage, and dealers have not been anxious to store it foT that reason, but discoveries have been .made that seem to promise success, and I would suggest to the Government that they inquire into these proposed storage remedies either through the Conservation Commission or through the Fuel 'Controller s Department. Once the storage difficulty is overcome it will be possible for the dealers throughout the prairie provinces to acquire coal during the summer months for use in the fall and winter, and when we can do that, we can keep the mines in operation the year round, ^nd that will solve the labour difficulty. We have only tapped the coal resources
o.f western Canada. The mines of western Canada at the present time have a greater capacity than the demand of that country, and there are unlimited areas of coal as yet untouched. If the difficulties I have mentioned could be overcome, western Canada could supply the demands of all Ontario, I believe. Of course, Ontario is accustomed to using a hard coal, and we are accustomed to using a coal that is called soft, but it suits our purpose in every respect, and I am sure Ontario would find it quite useful, especially to meet shortages of the kind that occurred during last winter.


Mr. R. H. BUTTS (South Cape Breton):: It would be inadvisable for a Cape Breton man to hold his tongue when the coal question comes up in such a manner as it has to-night. I wish to review the observations made by the mover of the resolution (Mr. COMMONS
Lemieux) and by my hon. friend from -North Cape Breton (Mr. McKenzie), and the very first suggestion I would like to make to them would be that, as far as the coal areas of Cape Breton and Nova Scotia are concerned, they might bring a little bit of influence to bear upon their friend the Premier of Nova Scotia to see if he would not really do something tangible to right the wrongs perpetrated by the local legislature of that province during the past twenty years. In Cape Breton County alone there are areas containing hundreds of millions of tons of coal that cannot be touched, belonging to the Dominion Coal Company, held under long leases and unworked. There are also other vast areas that cannot (be operated, (because the Dominion Coal Company properties are interlocked with those of the Nova Scotia Steel Company, and vice versa. Would it not be better for my two hon. friends, instead of making suggestions to the Government, to go to their friends in the Nova Scotia government and see if something could not be done to break the deadlock between those two companies? Not only are the towns suffering for coal, but the annual production of coal is actually decreasing year by year at the rate of some half a million tons yearly, and this notwithstanding the fact that great improvements have been made in mining machinery and production methods. The mover of the resolution came out with scare headlines about the shortage of coal.


Rodolphe Lemieux: In Central Canada.


Robert Hamilton Butts: 
An hon. MEMBER:: Since Union Government?


Robert Hamilton Butts: I am speaking of Murray's Anti-Union Government of the last six years. Did it ever occur to them that the Port Hood mine was closed down, and that for about a week in that local House we fought for an investigation of the conditions prevailing at Port Hood? Did it ever occur to them that we had in Nova Scotia this last year two of the most terrible mining disasters that ever occurred in this country, which were only lost sight of on account of the overshadowing magnitude of the Halifax disaster? Did it ever occur to them to ask this House why it was that those disasters occurred? My hon. colleague and I can tell them that the accidents were due to the terrible mining laws and poor mining inspection existing in Nova Scotia. There was no more inspection of mines there than there is in the City of Quebec. Did it ever occur to those gentlemen that it would be well to look to their own household before they began to criticize others? A mine was closed down in the county of Pictou, at Thor-burn, not long ago, and no one has been told why. Another mine in West-ville was closed down and nobody has been told why.	This very high vein
of coal that my hon. friend from Cape Breton speaks of was not only 36 feet high, but it was 48, 50 and 60 feet, and it was closed down on account of bad mining laws and ineffective government inspection in Nova Scotia, and between 400 and 500 miners left the district. These are some of the matters that I suggest hon. gentlemen should think of before they begin to talk of the necessity of this Federal Government looking after the increased production of coal, which is primarily a provincial government matter. The increased production of coal in the eastern part of Canada is dependent upon the local government, and it is very greatly hampered by the local government, and I would say to these gentlemen that, at least for the sake of propriety, they had
better withdraw this resolution and look to their own household. They had better go to Mr. Murray and Mr. Armstrong, and the worthy Attorney General, Mr. Daniels, in Nova Scotia, and ask them if they cannot do their share to relieve the coal situation.
On motion of Hon. Mr. Crotihers the debate was adjourned.
On motion of Hon. J. D. Reid, the House adjourned at 11.05 p.m.
Thursday, April 4, 1918.



DEPUTY SERJEANT-AT-ARMS.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I have the honour to inform the House that the Serjeant-at-Arms, *with my approval, has appointed Louis Charles Panet, Esquire, to be his deputy during the present session of Parliament.



EMPLOYEES OF HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Robert Laird Borden: That the recommendation of the Honourable the Speaker, laid on the table of the House on the 2nd April Instant, relative to the yearly increase in salary to certain Officers and Clerks and Employees of the House, and also a clerk In the Joint Distribution Office of the House of Commons and Senate, pursuant to Section S of Chapter 9, of the Statutes of 1917, be approved.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Robert Laird Borden: That a message he sent to the Senate to acquaint their Honours that this House has approved the recommendation of the Honourable the Speaker of the House o-f Commons for the payment to a clerk of the Joint Distribution Office of the Bouse of Commons and Senate, of the yearly increase in salary, pursuant to Section 8 of Chapter 9, of the Statutes of 1917.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Robert Laird Borden: That the names of the following members he added to the following Select Standing Committees viz:
Railways, Canals and Telegraph Lines- Messrs. Bolton, Harold, Long, Mewiburn, Reid, (Grenville), and Ross.
Miscelllaneous Private Balls-Messrs. Kennedy and Pedlow.
Standing Orders-Mr. Duff.
Public Accounts-'Messrs. Duff, Mewhurn and Ross.

Banking and Commerce-.Messrs. Cowan, Johnston, Kennedy, Pedilow and Ross.
Agriculture and Colonization-Messrs. Bolton, Cowan, Harold, Johnston, Long and Sinclair, (Queens, P. E. X.)
Marine and' Fisheries-(Messrs. Duff and Sinclair, (Queens, P. E. I.)
Mines and Minerals-Messrs. Bolton, Johnston and Long.
Forests, Waterways and Waterpowers-Mr. Cowan.
Library-Mr. Harold.
I understand these additions have been assented to by the whips on each side, and the motion iis due principally to members having been gazetted since the last motion was made.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Robert Laird Borden: That the name of Mr. Mowat he substituted for that of Mr. McLeod on the Select Standing Committee on Standing Orders, and that the name of Mr. McLeod be substituted for that of Mr. Mowat on the Select Standing Committee to supervise the official reports of the House.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. J. E. ARMSTRONG (East Lambton) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 31, to amend the Railway Act.
Mr. MURPHY:: Explain.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: This Bill is similar to the Bill I introduced in 1915. The legislation is along the same line as that which I have asked the Parliament of Canada, during the last five years, to hjing into force. It is for the purpose of bringing the boats engaged on our inland waters and our coastwise trade under the control of the Board of Railway Commissioners. The railways in Canada are compelled to file their tolls, rates and tariff agreements with the Railway Board, and they are also compelled to do this with regard to boats connected with the railways.
I firmly believe it would be in the public interest not only to 'compel the boats on our inland waters and along the coast to file their tariff rates with the Board, but to bring them under the Board's absolute control. There are on the Canadian register 8,500 boats, with some 45,000 employees. In view of the fact that these boats are allowed to make use of our rivers, harbours, docks and cam-ate free of Charge, in which improvements the people o.f this country have invested over $350,000,000, I think horn, gentlemen will readily agree that it would be in the public interest for the Parliament of Canada to have control over these
ISir Robert Borden.]
vessels, The Government of the United States, witlhin the last two yeans, has passed most stringent laws and regulations governing the traffic on their inland waters and their coastwise trade. Practically every civilized country in the' world, except the Dominion of 'Canada, has control of its shipping, and il 'hope when the Bill comes before the House that hon. members will assist in passing it, so that it may become law during this session.
Motion agreed to', and Bill read the first time.



QUESTIONS.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by asterisks).

Mr. MORPHY:: 1.	How much salary was paid last year to Sir Charles Fitzpatrick as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Canada?
2.	How much was paid last year to Sir Charles Fitzpatrick as Deputy Governor General;
(a)	what are his duties in this office; and (6) how much was paid to his predecessor in office?
3.	How much was allowed last year to Sir Charles Fitzpatrick by way of expenses for duties overseas ?
4.	Was Sir Charles Fitzpatrick paid such last-named allowance or any part thereof?
5.	Is Sir Charles Fitzpatrick mentioned in the d receding four questions one and the same person?


Horn. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1. $10,000.
2.	$5,000; (a) to act for or in absence of His Excellency the Governor General;
(b)	No predecessor.
3.	Parliament voted $2,500.
4.	No.
5.	Yes.
FISHING TRAPS: ST. LAWRENCE RIVER.
Mr. iGAUVREAU:
1.	Is the Government aware that some farmers along the shore of the St. Lawrence river, are prohibited from fishing, or establishing and using encircling fishing traps, in front of their property, by reason of the heirs of Seigneur Fraser exacting from them an exorbitant rent amounting in certain cases to as much as forty dollars for each fishing season?
2.	Is it the intention of the Government to give instruction to the Food Controller in Canada to cause an earnest inquiry in the matter with a view to determine a reasonable price for the establishment of said encircling fishing traps [DOT]in that portion of the County of Temiscouata comprising Notre Dame du Portage, River du Loup, Oacouna and Notre Dame des Sept Douleurs?

Hon. (Mr. BALLANTYNE:
1.	No.
2.	Not a't present advised. The fisheries in the district mentioned are being administered by the -provincial government.


EXEMPTION TRIBUNAL EXPENSES.
Mr. PACAUD:: 1.	Have all the local Judges attending to the exemption claims been paid?
2.	If not, what is the number of those who have not been so paid, and for what reason?
3.	Have all the court clerks and other employees of such tribunals been paid?
4.	If not, how many claims are outstanding, and for what reason?
5.	What is the total amount paid to Judges and clerks of the exemption tribunals to date, and what is the total expenditure to date of such tribunals?
6.	What is the number of officials and employees connected1 with the Central Appeal Tribunal, and what is the salary paid to each of them?
7.	What is the total amount of disbursements to date in connection with the putting into operation of the Military Service Act, 1917?


Hon. Mr. DOHERTY:: 1.	No.	.
2.	342 not paid; accounts in process of chocking or not yet sent in.
3.	No.
4.	lit is impossible to state how many claims are outstanding as the accounts of the tribunals have not all been sent in.
5.	$268,749.63.
6.	96, as per statement attached.
7.	$1,424,785.15.


STAFF OF THE OFFICE OF THE CENTRAL APPEAL JUDGE.
[Stage Direction]
J. Lome MoDougall, Clerk to the Central Appeal Judge, $250 per month.
P. M. Roy, Secretary to Central Appeal Judge, transferred from Supreme Court. No special remuneration.
Five barristers, engaged as counsel, $70.00 per week salary and expenses.
Eight barristers, engaged as counsel, $84.00 per week salary and expenses.
One agricultural examiner, $10i5.0'0 per week salary and expenses.
One barrister, Office of Central Public Representative, $84.00 per week salarly and expenses.
One comptroller, $180.00 per month.
One stenographer, $150.0'0 per month.
Five stenographers, $110.00 per month.
Eleven stenographers, $100.00 per month.
One stenographer, $95.00 per month.
One stenographer, $90.00 per month.
Six stenographers, $85.00 per month.
Eight stenographers, $80.00 per month.
Three stenographers, $7'5.00 per month.
One stenographer, $70.00 per month.
One stenographer, $65.00 per month.
Two clerks, Filing Department, $125.00 per month.
One clerk, Filing Department, $70.00 per month.
Three clerks, Filing Department, $65.00 per month.
Ten clerks, Filing Department, $60.00 per month.
One clerk, Filing Department, $50.00 per month.
One index clerk, $90.00 per month.
Two index clerks, $60.00 per month.
One clerk, Record Branch, $90.00 per month.
One clerk, Record Branch, $85.00 per month.
One clerk, Record Branch, $50.00 per month.
Three copyists, $65.00 per month.
Six copyists, $60.00 per month.
Two copyists, $55.00 per month.
One messenger, $75.00 per month.
One messenger, $70.00 per month.
Two messengers, $60.00 per month.
Three messengers, $40.00 per month

Sir SAM HUGHES:: A report from Montreal says: "Imperial War Graves Commission has been informed that Canadian authorities have decided on a. one-pattern headstone for all Canadian graves with the option of a special crest or motto for each battalion or a service design." Will the Government be good enough to give the particulars, if any, in this matter?
Major-General MEWBURN:	The following cablegram, has- just been, received from the High Commissioner in reference to this matter:
Imperial War Graves Commission decided there should be equality of treatment for graves of all officers and men abroad and that this principle should be carried out by Commission by erection over all graves in war cemeteries abroad of headstones of uniform dimensions though with some variety of pattern. English regiments may decide have distinctive pattern for each regiment but after full consultation with Canadian corps and military authorities here Kemp and I found general consensus opinion that we should have uniform headstone and inscription for all Canadians with right to have separate crest or motto for each battalion or service. Decision was therefore made accordingly through Imperial War Graves Commission but no design for Canadian headstone has yet been selected. Writing more fully.


PERLEY.
Mr. PORTER:: 1.	When was Mr. Tucker appointed as Agricultural Representative on the Leave of Absence Board, Military District No. 3, Kingston, under the Military Service Act, 1917?
2.	Upon whose recommendation, or at whose request was he so appointed?
3.	Has he any known special qualifications for such position?
4.	What pay does he receive for his services?
Hon,. Mr. CRERAR:
1.	February 6, 1918.
2.	He was appointed by the Minister of Agriculture, not upon recommendation or at request, but after satisfying himself by

inquiry that he possessed the necessary qualifications' for the position.
3.	Yes.
4.	$5 per diem and expenses.


RETURNED SOLDIERS. .
Arthur Trahan: Of the 1015,250 wounded men mentioned in the speech of the right hon. the Prime Minister on the 19th of March last, how many have returned to the Front?
Major-General MEWBURN: The information ashed is not available, and if it were, it would not be in the public interest to give it.


OFFICERS OF MONTREAL BASE DEPOT BATTALIONS.
Mr. POWER:: 1.	Who are the commissioned officers employed at Montreal at the Base Depot Battalion, No. 1?
2.	How long have they been in this battalion ?
3.	What is their rank?
4.	Who are those amongst them who have performed service overseas ?
5.	How long were they actually at the Front?
6.	To which battalion did they belong when in the trenches?
Major-General MEWBURN: The answers are tabulated ae follows:
1st Depot Battalion.	1st Quebec Regiment.
(1)	(2)	(3)	(4)	(5)	(6)	M. A. Piche	24-9-17	Lt,-Col	No.	O. C.24-9-17	Major	II	2nd in CommJdC. W. Hewsoii, M.C 	8-10-17	Yes.	5th C. M. R.	N. Loring	28-9-17	ii	No	.T. J. Walker	1-2-18	Yes.	L. S. Yuill	6-11-17	ti	ii	18th Batt	6-11-17	ii	ii	6 11-17	ii	ii	J. T. L. Sburn 	13-11-17	<>	a	42nd Batt...	A. M. Gainmell	18-10-17	ii	P. P. C. L. I.	H. Armstrong	6-11-17	a	ii	14th Batt. ...	1-10-17	ii	it	*W. H. Butters	
.	26-12-17	Lieut	No.	o3	6-11-17	11	Yes.	F. W. G. Hale	18-2-18	II	*G. B. Dorey	2-10-17	II	No.	>	*W. K. Nelles	5-10-17	II	II	*F. W. F. Whitehead	5-10-17	II	II	*H. N. J. Dandurand	6-10-17	II	II	a	*W. A. Ramsay	1-10-17	II	II	.2	*W. H. Harrison	15-10-17	II	II	cs	*H. K. Gorham	10-10-17	II	II	S	*W. B. Clark	8-11-17	II _	II	o	*G. F. Macnaughton... 	8-11-17	II	II	a	*L. St. G. Wilkins	8-11-17	*[DOT] 	;	II	*T. B. Heney	2-1-18	ii '	II	*R. Hampson	26-12-17	i*	II	*H. C. Howard	18-2-18	ii	II	*L. G. Bell	18-2-18	ii	II	*W. L. Darling	18-2-18	/ " 	Yes.	(Conduct	ing duty)	*F. L. West	26-12-17	it	No.	*G. 0. A. Brown	31-12-17	n	Yes.	(Conduct	C. W. Rigby	1-9-17	Pav-Mr. &	218th Batt	Attached.Hon. Capt. .	A. E. Vipond	11-1-18	Med. Off.	ii	A. M. C	Attached.Captain.	
Temporary appointment, to be replaced by returned officers when available.


OFFICERS OF MONTREAL, BASE DEPOT BATTALIONS.
Mr. POWER:: 
EMPLOYMENT OF RETURNED OFFICERS.
Mr. POWER:: 
THE VICTORY DOAN.
Mr. TRAHAN:: 1.	Has the Government appointed a special committee known as the Victory Loan Committee?
2.	If so, when was it appointed?
3.	What members constitute said committee?
4.	What powers have been conferred upon them, and what are their duties?


Hon. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1.	With the approval of the Minister of Finance, a committee known as the "Victory Loan Special Committee" was ap-

pointed 'by .the Dominion Executive Committee of Canada's Victory Loan.
2.	Xbe membership of the committee was
approved by the Minister of Finance on January 3, 1918.	-
3.	G.' H. Wood, Esq., Toronto; H. B. Tudhope, Eeq., Toronto; J. W. Mitchell, Esq., Toronto; W. A. Mackenzie, Esq., Toronto; 'Sir Augustus Nanton, Winnipeg; P. McDo'Ugall, Esq., Montreal; E. A. Stephenson, Esq., Montreal; J. M. Mackie, Esq., Montreal.
4.	The committee was formed for the purpose of assisting in organizing and .stabilizing- the market for Canada's Victory Loan, 1917. With that end in view, and in cooperation with the Bank of Montreal, financial agents of the Dominion, it lays down such rules and regulations to be followed by co-operating bond and stock dealers in connection with trading in Victory Loan bonds, and takes such other action as from time to time may be authorized by the Bank of Montreal with the consent of the Minister of Finance.


*Mr. TEAHAN:: 1.	Do all the subscribers to the Victory Loan regularly pay their instalments?
2.	If not, how many of these subscribers have failed to pay their instalments?
3.	What is the amount of the arrears?
4.	Of the total number of subscribers, what proportion are in arrears in each of the provinces, and in the whole country?
5.	What is the proportion between the instalments in abeyance and the instalments due?
6.	Has the Government exercised its right to forfeit past payments in the case of those persons who have been unable to meet their obligations when payments became due?
7.	If s6, in how many cases, for each of the provinces of Canada?
8.	What is the amount, for each province, so forfeited?


Hon. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1,	2, 3, 4 and 5. The subscribers in addition to the 10 per cent paid on application were allowed five instalments in which to complete their payments. The last of these instalments is due on the 1st May. The department is not in a position to answer the questions categorically except to say that a very large proportion of the subscribers paid their subscriptions in full on the first three instalment dates. Including the 1st March instalment the amount of the loan payable was 60 per cent. On that date 77 per cent of the allotments had been paid in full.
6,	7 and 8. The answer is no.


SILVER MONEY IN CIRCULATION.
Mr. TEAHAN:: 1.	What was the total amount of Canadian silver money in circulation when war was declared in August, 1914?
2.	What was the total amount of silver money in circulation on the 1st March, 1918?
Hon. A. K. MA'CLEAN:
1 and 2. 'Silver in circulation cannot be stated exactly. Is a matter of estimate.


THE GOLD RESERVE.
Mr. TEAHAN:: 1.	What was the total amount of gold in reserve in charge of the Receiver-General when war was declared in 1914?
2.	What was the amount of said gold in reserve on the 1st March, 1918?


Hon. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1.	$97,136,426.88.
2.	$120,005,662.45.


DOMINION NOTES IN CIRCULATION IN 1914 AND 1918.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. TEAHAN.
1.	What was the total amount of paper money in circulation in Dominion Notes when war was declared in August, 1914?
2.	What was the total amount of said Dominion Notes in circulation on the 1st March, 1918?
Hon. A. K. ,MACLEAN:
1.	July 31, 1914, $112,793,833.28.
2.	February 28, 1918, $255,316,652.92.

*Mr. TEAHAN:: 1.	How many foreign loans obtained by the Government will become due during the fiscal year, 1.'.18-1919 ?
2.	What date will each of such loans become due?
3.	What is the rate of interest upon each of said loan;s?
4.	What amount of sinking fund has been provided by the Government for the payment of each of the said loans?
5.	What course does the Government propose taking to meet such payments when said loans become due?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: No foreign loans maturing in 1918-19.


DOMESTIC LOANS.
*Mr. TRAHAN:: 1.	Has the Government made use of any of the various loans obtained since August, 1914, to this date, to meet the accruing interest payments upon War Loans?
2.	If so, what was the gross amount for each of the years 1914, 1915, 1916 and 1917, so paid?
3.	Does the Government propose to make use of future war loan funds for the purpose of meeting the accruing interest payments referred to in question No. 1?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: 1, 2 and 3. The answer is no.


Mr. TRAHAN:: 1.	In connection with the money loans obtained previously to the commencement ot hostilities, has the Government decided to suspend, during the continuance of the war, the discretion it exercised in respect to the sinking funds of said loans?
2.	If not, for what reason?


Hon. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1.	No.
2.	It is not deemed necessary at present.


WAR EXPENDITURE.
*Mr. TRAHAN:: 1.	What amount has been paid in connection with war expenditure by means of: (a) War taxes; (b) Treasury bonds; (c) Short term loans; and (d) Long term loans?
2.	Were sinking fund provisions made in respect to the Government war loans issued since August, 1914?
3.	If so, what is the amount of the sinking fund for each of the said loans and the rate thereof?
4.	If not, for what reason have no sinking fund provisions been made?


Hon. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1.	Under the Audit Act all public moneys and revenues form one consolidated revenue fund and expenditures are not ear-marked against any source of revenue.
2.	Yes, one half of one per cent.
3 and 4. $1,000,000; one half of one per cent, applicable to the 1925 Loan.


SALARIES OF CANADA FOOD BOARD.
Mr. J. F. REID:: What are the salaries now 'being paid to each of the members of the Canada Food Board?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Henry B. Thomson, chairman, $7,000 per annum; Hon. C. A. Dunning, Director of Agricultural Production, no salary; J. D. McGregor, Director of Agricultural Labour, no salary.


OBSERVATION AND PRIVATE CARS.
Mr. MacNUTT:: 1.	Has an order been issued' to discontinue observation and private oars on transcontinental and other trains?
2.	If so, was this done in the interest^ of conservation ?
3.	Is the Government aware that recently a heavy private car was attached to the rear end of the Imperial Limited Train No. 2, at Vancouver, and hauled across the Continent to some point in Ontario?


Hon. J. D. REID:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	No.


THE MONEY MARKET.
*Mr. TRAHAN:: 1.	Has the Government adopted any measure or measures with a view to preventing a depreciation of value in the money market, in respect to the bonds issued for the various war loans?
2.	If so, what measures were adopted?
3.	If not, what does the Government propose doing to provide against such contingency?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The answer to this question will be found in answer to the hon. gentleman's question headed "The Victory Loan."


PRO'HIBITION-DO'MINION REVENUE.
*Mr. TRAHAN:: 1.	To what extent will the revenue be affected by reason of the Prohibition measure in Canada?
2.	In what manner does the Government propose to offset the receipts thus affected?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The subject of this question will be dealt with in the Budget Speech of the acting Minister of Finance.


RECONSTRUCTION OF PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS COMMITTEE.
Mr. COPP:: 1.	Who -were named on the Original Building Committee for the rebuilding of the new Parliament buildings?
2.	Who are at present acting on the said Building Committee?


Hon. Mr. CARVELL:: 1.	Hon. Robt. Rogers, M.P., Hon. Charles Murphy, M.P., Hon. Rodolph Lemieux, M.P., Hon. Dr. J. D. Reid, M.P., Hon. J. D. Hazen, M.P., Hon. William Pugsley, M.P., Hon. P. E. Blondin, M.P., Hon. Senator Robert Watson, .non. Sir James Lougheed, K.C.
2.	Hon. F. B. Carvell, M.P., Hon. Dr. J. D. Reid, M.P., Hon. P. E. Blondin, Hon. C. C. Ballantyne, M.P., Hon. Senator Robert Watson, Hon. Senator G. D. Robertson, Hon. Sir James Lougheed, K.C., Hon. J. A. Cakler, M.P.


REGIMENT AT AMHERST DURING ELECTION.
Mr. SINCLAIR:: 1.	Which regiment or part of a regiment landed or arrived at Amherst, N. S., shortly before the last general election?
2.	Did the members or soldiers of that regiment vote at the last general elections?
3.	Who was their commanding officer, what w'as his name, rank and the date of his appointment?
4.	Where was the above regiment recruited, and where drilled?
5.	When did this regiment arrive at Amherst and from whence was it brought?
6.	How long did this regiment remain at Amherst, and where did it go from there?

7.	Were all the soldiers of said regiment British subjects? If so, how many were British subjects by birth, and how many by naturalization?
8.	How many men composed the said regiment, and how many of them voted at Amherst at the last general election?
Major-General MEWBURN:
1.	Reinforcing drafts from the 1st and 2nd Depot Battalions, B. C. Regiment.
2.	No available information.
3.	Lieut. J. Douglas Beatson, appointed to 1st Depot Battalion, B. C. Regiment. (1st September, 1917, as lieutenant.)
4.	British Columbia. Recruited and trained at Victoria and Vancouver.
5.	Arrived Amherst, N.S., November 29th, from Military District No. 11, British Columbia. '
6.	Stationed at Amherst from November 29th to December 16th; proceeded to St. John, N.B., en route for Overseas.
7.	Information not directly available, but could he obtained with considerable difficulty, necessitating a very careful perusal of documents, and which would take some time to accomplish.
8.	Draft 1st Depot Battalion, B. C. Regiment: Strength, 2 officers and 200 other ranks. Draft 2nd Depot Battalion, B. C. ranks. ' No information available as to how many of these troops voted at Amherst at the last general election.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS.

Mr. POWER:: 1.	What properties, if any, have been purchased by the Militia Department or the Military Hospital Commission in Quebec City, since the first of January, 1917?
2.	From whom were these purchases made, and on whose recommendation?
3.	What was the purchase price?


Mr. STEVENS:: 1.	How many persons of all ranks are employed by the Military Hospitals Commission in British Columbia, and what are their names, rank and salaries?
2.	Why were they appointed, and where are they stationed?
3.	How many of these men have seen service at the front?
4.	Who is the senior official of the Military Hospitals Commission in British Columbia?
5.	What is the total monthly cost of carrying on the work of the Commission in British Columbia, and how many men are being looked after at present?
6.	How many buildings are operated by the Military Hospitals Commission in British Columbia, and where are they situated?
7.	Bow many officials from headquarters in Ottawa found it necessary to visit the Pacific Coast during the past year, and for what purpose?

8.	Has the Military Hospitals Commission a regularly appointed1 publicity agent? If so, what is his name, and what are his duties?
9.	Has he seen overseas service, and what is his salary?
10.	What was the total cost of the publicity department during 1917?



THE QUEBEC DISTURBANCES.


[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day.
Mr. J. A. CURRIE (North Simcoe) asked for leave to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the recent rioting in the city of Quebec, together with all the attendant circumstances in connection therewith.
Right Hon.   S@: Before any action is taken on the proposal of the hon. gentleman, I would suggest to him the advisability of postponing it until tomorrow at least, as any discussion upon it should be accompanied by information which the Government Wrill then be prepared to lay on the table of the House, but which it is not prepared to lay upon the Table to-day. These proposals have been and are now under consideration, and can be announced to-morrow. In lui meantime, it seems to me undesirable that any debate should proceed to-day, in the absence of ttie information which I" have referred to. I, therefore, ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw his proposal for to-day.


Mr. CURRIE:: According to the custom
and usages of the House, when* any new information is to he brought down on a question of this kind, no other course is open to a member hut to accede to such a request as that made by the Prime Minister, and I do so graciously, because I think perhaps it will he in the interest of the House that all the facts in connection with this matter should he laid upon the Table, in order that we should have a free and full discussion to-morrow of the whole matter.
Motion 'withdrawn.



DOMINION FOREST RESERVES AND PARKS ACT.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 17, to amend the Dominion Forest Reserves and Parks Act-Hon. Mr. Meighen -read third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 15, to amend the Montreal Harbour Advances Act, 1914-'Hon. Mr. Ballan-tyne-read third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Right Hon. Sir George Foster for the third reading of Bill No. 4, to provide for the time in Canada being in advance of the solar mean time during the summer months.
Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I think a correction has to toe made in the Order Paper with respect to the title of this Bill.


George Green Foster: It should read:
In advance of the Standard Mean Time.


Mr. McCOIG:: I wish to announce to the House, and to the bon. Minister of Trade and Commerce, that I have received a great number of petitions, protesting against this Bill becoming law, and, if it is in order, I would move that the Bill be referred back to the Committee for further consideration,
Motion of Sir George Foster agreed to, and Bill read the third time.



DOMINION BUREAU OF STATISTICS.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Sir George Foster, Minister of Trade and Commerce, the House went into Committee on the following proposed resolutions, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
Resolved, That it is expedient to provide for a Bureau under the Minister of Trade and Commerce to be called the Dominion Bureau of Statistics, to collect, abstract, compile and publish statistical information relative to the commercial, industrial, social, economic and general activities and condition of the people, to collaborate with all other departments of the Government in the compilation and1 publication of statistical records of administration, according to the regulations, and to take the census of the Dominion; and that the Governor in Council may appoint an officer to be called the Dominion Statistician to supervise and control the said Bureau; and that the Governor in Council may, from time to time, pay out of the moneys to be provided by Parliament for such purposes, such sums as are required for the taking of the census, collection of statistics, the remuneration of the officers and1 clerks, and the payment of all expenses incurred in carrying1 into effect an Act for such purposes.
Edward Walter Nesbitt: We cannot hear a word of what is being said.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Come back and take your old seat, and you can hear.


Mr. BUREAU:: Before the resolution is adopted, I should like to know from the minister what the purpose of the establish-
22 -
ment of this Bureau is. A lot of enumerations are contained in the resolution. There is one item which states that in this Bureau the statistics for the census will be taken. I thought there was a branch in the Department of Agriculture charged with the duty of collecting statistics regarding the census of Canada. Every now and then we receive a leaflet purporting to be statistics covered by this particular branch of the Department of Agriculture. This resolution also provides for the compilation and publication of statistical information relative to the commercial, industrial, social, economic and general activities and condition of the people. With reference to the first item, I thought the minister had a bureau or branch in his department, the special purpose of which was to collect statistics of commercial data. I know that we receive from time to time very interesting reports from the Department of Trade and Commerce, explaining the conditions of trade in various countries where the minister has representatives, who seem to report assiduously, and this information is conveyed to the people of Canada through those leaflets which were received monthly or bimonthly, I could not tell you which. I was under the impression, as far as the industrial statistics are concerned, that the Department of Labour had statisticians, whose duty it was to collect all these statistics relating to the industrial condition of the country, to the condition of the labouring classes, to the amount of work that is being performed, and the prices of various commodities, etc. Is the object of the minister to have in his department, and under his control, a Bureau of Statistics wherein all statistics which are now being gathered by the other departments, or by the various branches which are under the control of the other departments, would be collected, and is it the intention to have the whole thing merged into this department, and have a Bureau of Statistics wherein statistics of all kinds, whether relating to our foreign trade, or to our industrial, social, or general activities, would be collected? Perhaps it will not be necessary to deal with our social conditions, because the social columns of our newspapers will supply anybody who wants information along that line.


George Green Foster: It might be a little different.


Jacques Bureau: It might be, but I do not know that I would support the Minister of Trade and Commerce with reference to that particular branch of the statistical bureau.



I want to know whether all the other static tical branches in the various departments will he abolished or merged into this one great statistical department where information can toe had as to any branch of the service, or any statistics with reference to the condition of the country.


George Green Foster: The thing is not as formidable as it appears at first blush and on reading it on the Order Paper. It was a matter of douibt really as to whether it would be necessary to put a resolution on the Order Paper or not as a foundation for the Bill, tout as that was the course that was pursued when the present Act was introduced, it was thought better to follow the rule on this occasion. Consequently, the resolution was placed on the Order Paper to form the foundation for the introduction of a Bill. My hon. friend (Mr. Bureau) was right in most of the impressions he had with reference to what is being done, tout he was a little bit out in the allocation of the services which _ he enumerated to the different departments. What it is meant to do is to consolidate, and make some few amendments to, the law as it is at present upon the statute book and as it is administered in the Department of Trade and Commerce. The object of the consolidation and ratification of the legislation which is at present on the statute books to make the law more effective. It is designed, as it is provided now under the law, that there shall toe a central statistical board or office. It is proposed to call that the Dominion Bureau of Statistics as being a somewhat more apposite name for the work which is toeing carried on and as being in line with the nomenclature in other countries. The idea underlying the present law, and which will underlie these amendments, is that general economic statistics shall toe under the supervision of, and be issued by, the Dominion Bureau of Statistics. The different departments will, of course, Tetain their administrative, or record, statistics, or such statistics as are necessary for the administration of the department. There will be no change in that respect. Then, again, during the last three years-not to make the story long, 'because I propose to go a little more fully into it when I introduce the Bill,-a great deal has been done to coordinate the work in connection with the Dominion statistics tooth in the gathering, compilation and distribution, with the different provincial statistical departments. By conference and good will, an understanding has been reached with all of these along 
certain lines, the idea being to do away with overlapping and to have a uniform basis upon which the information is gathered so that the statistics will have a comparative value and so that there will be no contradiction between them. We have suffered a great deal with respect to the prestige of our statistics by having different computations put forward toy different provinces and by the Dominion almost always arising from the fact that there has never been a uniform basis1 upon which the questions have been issued, on the answers to which the information is compiled. On the introduction of the Bill I shall ask the House to listen a little more at length to an exposition of the measure.


Jacques Bureau: I would assume that in preparing the Bill and talking the matter over with the officials the details bad been very carefully considered. Will this relieve any of the other departments from any work now undertaken toy their statistical branches, or will it leave the other departments, and their statistical branches, in, the same position as they now occupy and with the same work as they now do?


George Green Foster: My hon. friend
will see that the resolution provides for the co-operation of the central statistical bureau with the departments and if it is found, as it has already be-eir found-and in some cases it is in operation-that the two can work in co-operation with each other and reach .a better result, that co-operation will take place. Provision is made for co-working between the different departments and the central statistical Bureau. The object is to confine the departments to record or administrative statistics ,and leave the field of general economic statistics to the central bureau.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Is there any provision for collecting data on labour?


George Green Foster: Yes, to a certain extent. Any central system of statistics must take in capital and wages, labour employed and so on; but the special statistics of labour are under the Labour Department and will remain untouched.


Wilfrid Laurier: Why not under the same head?


George Green Foster: 
Wilfrid Laurier: I thought I heard my right hon. friend a .moment ago, when we were in committee, declare that it was his intention to explain the Bill at some length.


George Green Foster: When I move for the second reading.
Motion agreed to and Bill read the first time.



THE VAN BUREN BRIDGE COMPANY.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. Mr. Reid (Minister of Railways), the House again went into committee on Bill No. 14, to confirm an agreement between His Majesty the King and the Van Buren Bridge Company, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
On the schedule.
Mr. MIIOHAUD:: Mr. Chairman, 1 had
a,n interview with the Miiuiister of Railways yesterday afternoon with reference to this Bill. He informed me that he was going to see the Bill through, and that I could put before the House all 'the objections possible; but he was bound to see it through. From hois remarks when this Bill was last before the committee I noticed that the [DOT]minister did not understand everything in reference to this matter. He .stated to me that we would have an interview and that, no . douibt, the matter would come out all right. As a minister of the Crown, the hon. gentleman seems to :me to be fair. minded, but I am sorry to say that he is a stubborn gentleman; and I am afraid that 'he feels himself obliged to see this Bill through the House. I am very sorry for the public that the Minister of Railways has taken this step, for, after all, we are here to protect the public interest, and the Minister of Railways should 'be the first man to set a good example.
I know the locality where it is proposed to change the site of the union station. The proposed station is altogether outside the town of St. Leonards, a distance of between a quarter and half a mile. We have had petitions and telegrams of protest read to the House. I have also received lettens from business men, and notwithstanding all these protests coming from the whole corporation of the town of St. Leonards, my hon. friend is still under the impression that this union station should be built on the Transcontinental railway. I had from the Minister of Railways yesterday
22i
afternoon promises that the welfare of the public will be looked after.
At the present time, the Transcontinental railway has one train going east and one train going west daily. The train going east passes through the town of St. Leonards at twelve o'clock midnight. The train going west passes through at three o'clock in the morning. The Intercolonial railway train arrives at St. Leonards at three o'clock in the afternoon. The Canadian Pacific railway runs an express reaching St. Leonards at five o'clock in the afternoon, accommodating the public by running a train during the day. Now, if the location of the station is changed, I am sorry to say that the public will be forced to travel from the union station on the Transcontinental railway about half a mile to take the train at the Canadian Pacific railway station, You will not stop the public from travelling over the Canadian Paoific railway.
The day before yesterday I Tead a telegram in the Hous^in reference to the protest of the people of St. Leonards regarding this Bill. I also stated in the House that the people of St. Leonards were strongly against the proposal contained in this Bill unless the terminus of the Intercolonial railway should remain where it is at present. The ex-Minister of Railways, Hon. Mr. Cochrane, promised the people of St. Leonards^ that no change should he made, and I am sorry to see that the present Minister of Railways does not see eye to eye with his predecessor. I, therefore, Mr. Chairman, protest most energetically against the passing of this Bill, and I want to request the Minister of Railways, if he will be kind enough to listen to me, that [DOT]before he commences to move that station from the International railway to the National Transcontinental railway, he come himself to the town of St. Leonards and visit the site where he proposes to build the new station. I am sure of one thing from the good judgment of my hon. friend, that after seeing the proposed site, he will in common with the residents of St. Leonards, be opposed to the site of the new station.


Wilfrid Laurier: Hear, hear.


Mr. MICHAUD:: There is a great deal
of territory that my hon. friend has not yet covered as Minister of Railways, and this is a part of the country where he has not the least idea of local conditions. Before passing this Act, or before moving the present station from the International railway .to the Transcontinental railway, I would ask the minister to come when the

session is over and see for himself and thereby convince himself that he is wrong and that I am right.


Hon. J. D. REID:: Mr. Chairman, when this Bill was before the committee a few evenings ago, my hon. friend Stated that he understood that the charter given by this House for this piece of railway had a clause in it that the station would not be moved from where it is at the present time. The hon. member (Mr. Michaud) and I have discussed that point, and we have found the objection was not well founded. The situation as it has been laid before us by the officials of the Government railway system is this: the Government operates the Transcontinental railway between Levis and Moncton, which runs through the town of St. Leonards and has a station there. After the Transcontinental railway had been completed the Government purchased what is known as the International railway, running from a point on the Intercolonial line to St. Leonards, a distance of one hundred and twelve miles. The International railway had been in operation for some years and had its own terminal station. Since the purchase of that line the Government has had to maintain two stations in the town of St. Leonards, although it is the owner of both railways. But there was no connection between the International and the Transcontinental railway systems. Therefore, the traffic going over the International line, intended for the Transcontinental, has to be taken over this two miles of railway that we are leasing, and for which we have to pay the owners of the stretch in question, namely, the Bangor and Aroostook Company. The management of the Government railways discussed the matter with me, and we came to the conclusion that a connection should be made between the two railway systems. Negotiations were entered into, with the result that we are leasing the stretch of two miles, as has been shown in the agreement attached to the Bill. The objection raised by the hon. member (Mr. Michaud) is that if we carry out this agreement the Government, as the owner of both railways, will only use one station, that of St. Leonards, .and the International railway will run its trains into the station maintained for the Transcontinental. It must either do that, or else continue running to the station of the International railway. It would be impossible to use the latter station because the Transcontinental could not go around and over to it. Therefore,

as a matter of business, and in the interest of the country, it does not seem reasonable to my mind that we should continue to run the International trains over the two miles in .question to that station, and at the same time .maintain the statioft that has been used by the International railway. The hon. member states that if we do away with the station, as proposed, *people wishing to travel on the Canadian Pacific railway will have to go from the Transcontinental Railway station to that of the Canadian Pacific railway. If I understand the situation, and my facts have been gathered .from our officials, the International station as it now exists and the Canadian Pacific Railway station are very close together, and there is very little distance between them. The Transcontinental Railway station, from the information I have, is not far away, and at most passengers will have to travel but a few hundred feet. Why should the Government operate the International railway and keep up 4 p.m. that station in order that people may have to walk a few hundred feet less to travel on the Canadian Pacific railway? On the other hand, people travelling by the International railway who wish to take the Transcontinental railway have to walk a longer distance to reach the latter railway. The object in leasing this small *piece of line is, as I have stated: First, it is, in my opinion, an absolute necessity that we have a connection between the two railways in order to permit of the carriage of freight on our railways over the Transcontinental. Either we had to build two miles of line or else lease the needed section as we have done. Furthermore, in order to effect economy and save useless expenditure it is intended to only have one station for the two railways. The hon. member (Mr. Michaud) states that if I were to visit that portion o.f the country I would see the necessity of continuing the station which it is proposed to close. All I can say to my hon. friend is that I have gone into this matter very carefully. I believe it is in the interest of the public, and of the great railway systems concerned, that this connection should be made .between the International and the Transcontinental railway. In my opinion, the connection proposed here is the cheapest and best that could be made. Even if we were to build the two miles stretch instead of leasing it, it would still, in my opinion, only be necessary to have the one station. If this Bill passes we will secure the needed' connection and it will be of great advantage for freight

traffic, at all events. As far as making the one .station seryie for the two railway systems, that policy is correct, from the information in. imy possession, and I cannot hold out to the hon. gentleman 'any prospect of letting the two stations remain. When the opportunity of passing through that district is afforded me, if any evidence should toe presented that would justify the retention of the two stations, it will toe taken into consideration. In. the meantime, we are exceedingly anxious to have this connection at the earliest possible moment, even for freight traffic, and I hope the hon. gentleman will not further object to assisting us in facilitating the passage of the Bill for the reasons that I have mentioned.


Pius Michaud: I am sorry to say that I cannot assist the hon. gentleman in passing this Bill. Local public sentiment is opposed to it, as evidenced by the long adverse petition presented toy the citizens of St. Leonards. I know the conditions in that locality, and in view of all the circumstances,, I cannot concur in the minister's decision to close up the station in question. The minister has stated that the question involved is one of business for the Transcontinental railway. In my opinion, it is a matter of business for the people of that part of New Brunswick. When he states that there are only a few hundred feet to be covered between the two stations, I would like to say it is a distance of a quarter or half a mile.


John Dowsley Reid: About thirteen hundred feet.


Pius Michaud: At all events, we will
let the question of the distance stand for the /moment. I would ask the minister if he will 'be kind enough not to make any change with respect to the proposed union station until he makes his trip through that part of the country.


John Dowsley Reid: I could not make that promise. The sittings of the House may 'detain me here too long.


Mr. OOPP:: I am not sufficiently acquainted with the local conditions to be able to say whether the minister is consulting the public convenience in locating the union station at the place referred, to. I would ask, however, if the making of this *agreement involves the dismantling and tearing up of two miles of the International railway?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


Mr. COPP:: And is he also closing the
station on the International railway.


John Dowsley Reid: That is the intention.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I would draw the minister's attention to the fact that he is doing away with a section of railway which was purchased not very long ago. I do not recollect the price per mile paid for this railway, but at all events he is dismantling and doing away with a section of two miles. From a business standpoint he is simply throwing away two miles of this railway, tearing up the rails and dismantling this portion of the road. While doing this, he is leasing from the Bangor and Aroostook railway two miles of railway alt the annual rental of $1,200. So far as the business life of a railway company is concerned, it is only a short time between now and 1934, and at the end of that period, during which you have thrown away these two miles of railway which you have bought and paid for, and have inconvenienced the people of that locality, taking away from them the railway privileges which they have had for years, and during which period you have paid an annual rental of $1,200. Whoever happens to be occupying the position of Minister of Railways at that time will be up against the proposition that he has to retrace his steps and rebuild the two miles of railway, or purchase these two miles of railway that the Government had under lease, or else enter into a new lease. I am speaking only from a business standpoint; I am not speaking from the standpoint of convenience to the citizens of that locality, because 1 do not know the circumstances, and I am taking my information only from what my hon. friend (Mr. Michaud) has told this committee. I would like to ask the minister what it costs per year to keep the International Railway station open, what help is employed there, and what it would cost per year to keep the station in existence.


Pius Michaud: There is only one employee.


John Dowsley Reid: Perhaps I can answer the two questions at once. The hon. member states that this Government are going to be out $1,200 per annum from now until 1P34, that being the rental mentioned in the lease, and that we shall have nothing to offset that. The hon. member knows that, when we take up two miles of rails, those rails are worth at the present time probably $17,000 or $18,000, and if that money were invested in Dominion Government bonds, it would bring in interest sufficient to pay the $1,200 per annum, so that there is really no pecuniary loss. I cannot say offhand how many officials are at that

station, but I know there is an agent, and he probably receives $600 or $700 a year, so that we are saving at least that amount. The hon. member also states that the people of that locality are being deprived of their railway facilities.


Arthur Bliss Copp: 
John Dowsley Reid: I do not know it' either,
but the plan that has been submitted to the House will show it. People coming in to or leaving St. Leonard on the International leave at a certain station of the International that has1 been there for a number of years. The Transcontinental is a few hundred feet to the south of the International, which means that if you want to take a train on the International, you go a few hundred feet further from whatever part of the town you live in. There is no inconvenience further than that, and so far as the Government are concerned, we shall have this advantage, that if we were to take up the rails and dispose of them, the interest on the amount received for the rails would cover the amount we have to pay as rental, and we shall save the amount which we have been, paying for our cars going over that road during the whole of the year, cars being transferred from the International to the Transcontinental, and which must amount to a considerable sum of money. We shall also save the salaries of the employees who are kept at the station and of those who are engaged in maintaining the tv o miles of railway. I cannot understand where there would be much inconvenience, except that any passengers coming in on the International, who wanted to go on the Canadian Pacific might, so far as I can judge from the map, have to walk probably two or three hundred feet from the International to the Canadian Pacific, whereas, if they wanted to go on the Transcontinental, they might have to walk ten or twelve hundred feet.


Pius Michaud: The passengers would not have to walk any distance at all because the International train runs into the Canadian Pacific station.


Arthur Bliss Copp: In answering my question the minister opened up a new phase of the matter, pointing out that the Government would not lose anything; that, as a matter of fact, there would be a financial gain to the Government to take up and dismantle these

two miles of railway because, as the minister says, the rails could be sold at a high price owing to the present demand, and the interest on the money received, if invested in Victory Bonds, would more than pay the annual rent provided for in the lease between the Government and the Bangor and Aroostook railway. If one were to follow the minister'si argument along that line, one could take up the rails on any piece of railway and make money on the transaction. That, however, is not what, as I understand it, the Government intend doing. I understood from the minister that it was in the interest of the Transcontinental railway to enter into this agreement for the leasing of this road; that it was to do away with the keeping up of two stations. Now, he says, from a business standpoint, it is to the benefit of the Government to take up these rails and invest the money received for them, because the interest on that investment will more than cover the annual rental of $1,200. I want to draw the minister's attention to the fact that at the end of 1934, when this lease expires, the Government will be called upon to enter into a new lease, or to buy the road, or to rebuild the two miles of railway that has been torn up, and if, during that period, $ie cost of rails increases, then the Government will be out a very large amount to rebuild, reestablish and re-equip the two miles of railway which they have in their possession and which they are throwing away rather than keep that road in operation. One of the reasons the minister gives for his action is that it will do away with the expense of keeping up the International Railway station. He says himself there was only one official there whose salary would be about $600 or $700. Yet he is paying to the Bangor and Aroostook railway $1,200 per annum for the purpose of doing away with a station on the International railway. From a business standpoint, my hon. friend from Restigouche (Mr. Michaud), in opposing this proposition, is making only a reasonable argument, and the minister has not made out a proper case so far as the financial advantage of the Government and the interest of the railway are concerned. The minister says that he knows nothing about the location and, of course, we accept his word in regard to the matter. If we did not accept his word from a Parliamentary standpoint, we would know, from the agree* merit he is making in regard to the matter, that he does not know anything about it, and that he is depending entirely upon some railway official in regard to it. The minister

will not be Minister of Railways very long before he will come to realize fully that frequently young engineers from some school who are taken into the service, will, during the summer months when they have nothing else to do, go over the Intercolonial and make faddy recommendations without regard to the interests of communities which have had railway accommodation for years.
My hon. friend must not forget that the usual thing is for a town or village to build up around a station, and the station become the very heart of the community. I think the minister, before taking away the station which these people have had for so many years, should give some better reason to the House, or he might let the matter stand for further consideration.


Joseph Read: I should like to hear from the minister as to the policy of the Government in such a case as this. Around the station at Cape Traverse, for instance, there is a large vested interest, and before the Government do away with that station I think we should have a statement from the minister whether it is right and proper to deprive these people of their rights. I have no doubt that the officials who have recommended this union station at St. Leonard's are acting in the interests of the Government system, but is it honest or just to do away with the other station regardless of the rights of individuals? I think one of the principles embodied in British justice is that the individual stands above the community, and where an individual has to suffer rather than a corporation the individual's interest should at least be recognized.


[Stage Direction]
Schedule agreed to.
On the preamble:
Pius Michaud: If the minister carries out his idea of a Union station, he will not effect the economy he anticipates, because two clerks will be needed, one as operator and the other as freight agent. At present the clerk at the International station gets a salary of $400 a year, but it would be necessary to. have two clerks at the Union station.


[Stage Direction]
Preamble agreed to.
Bill reported.

[Stage Direction]
The House again in committee on Bill No. 5, to amend the Dominion Lands Act, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
Arthur Meighen: I beg to move:
That the following clause be inserted in the Bill immediately after clause 13 on page 6 of the Bill:-
13 A.-Section forty-one of the said Act is amended by striking out the word "five'' in the fourth line thereof and substituting therefor the word "six", and) by adding the following proviso thereto:-
Provided that all instalments or any portion of any instalment in arrear, whether of principal or interest, shall bear interest at the rate of seven per centum per annum; provided however that as to sales of School lands made prior to the first day of April, 1918, the minister *may with the consent of the purchaser or registered assignee increase the rate of interest in arrear to seven per centum per annum.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.	.
Bill, as amended, reported, amendments read the first and second time, and concurred in.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
Department of Trade and Commerce, salaries, $157,737.50.; contingencies, $15,000.
['I think we had better go out of committee now, without prejudice to any rights my hon. friend had.\nProgress reported.']
George Green Foster: 
George Green Foster: The explanation I made last year will be exactly the same this year. I am retaining that vote, but the office has not yet been filled. As we come nearer to the period of re-adjustment, I should like to have tihiat office: at the disposal of the Government. The work must necessarily be done by a pretty high class official.
Census and Statistics Branch, $91,600.


Jacques Bureau: Does this include part of the salaries to be paid to the new statistical bureau, the resolution in regard to which we discussed this afternoon?


George Green Foster: Yes.


Jacques Bureau: I see an increase of some two thousand dollars in the total.


George Green Foster: Yes.


Jacques Bureau: il wanted to know whether this increase was c-aused by the new officers who will be employed, in gathering these statistics after the Bill, the resolution in

regard to wtbich was debated thd-s afternoon, comes into force.


George Green Foster: This vote will
carry on the work of the Dominion Bureau of Statities, which is here called the census and statistics branch. It will be the same kind of work, except that the betterments to which I alluded in my remarks upon the ' resolution, will Ibe carried out under the new Act.


Jacques Bureau: Do I understand that the amounts mentioned here are to covdr the expenditure of the Census Department, or the 'branch of my hon. friend's department, as carried on now?


George Green Foster: Yes, with the
improvements that are to be made under the new Act which will toe presented.
Naval Service-To provide for the maintenance and upkeep of ships, Naval College, dockyards at Halifax and Esquimau, and RoyaJl Naval Canadian Volunteer Reserve, $600,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: 
Charles Murphy: If it be the intention of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to accede to the request of the hon. member for Maisonneuve and inform the committee regarding the shipbuilding industry, may I request that the minister be good enough to explain what field is covered by the shipbuilding branch of the Imperial Munitions Board as distinct from the shipbuilding industry carried out under the operation and direction of his departmeent?


Hon. Mr. BALLLANTYNE:: unoccupied at the present time, and were all engaged building for the Canadian Government the standard type of steel ships, the annual tonnage output would amount to 250,000 tons.
The hon. member for Russell has asked me to explain what the programme of the Imperial Munitions Board has been, and how it affects the present programme of the Canadian Government. I reply by stating that when I had the honour of being called to the portfolio of Marine and Fisheries and Naval Service, I found that the Dominion Government was advancing money through the Imperial Munitions Board, under the direct management of Sir Joseph Flavelle, to keep all of the steel shipyards in Canada fully occupied in building ships for the Mother Country. It seemed to me, and also to the Government when I brought the matter to their attention, that the time was opportune for Canada to embark upon the building of steel ships as a national, permanent policy.
-Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: And, after giving
the matter very careful consideration for some months, and working out a comprehensive programme on good, sound, business lines, I brought the proposal before my colleagues in the GovemmenJt, and I am very pleased to state that it was unanimously decided thait after the Imperial Munitions Board contracts were completed all the berths in all the shipyards of Canada wlhioh are 'building steel ships would be utilized to the full in building steel vessels for the Canadian Government.
Mr. aSURPHY :	When will that date
likely arrive?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Our programme is this: as these berths become vacant and the Imperial Government ships are completed, they are taken up by the Canadian Government. At the present time we are having two ships built by the Vickers Co. of Montreal, one of 8,100 tons dead weight capacity, an 11-knot ship, and another of 4,350 tons. I am pleased to state that I have every hope that this fall both of these vessels will be put in commission for the Canadian Government. It will be the first time in the history of Canada that sea-going vessels as large as the two I have referred to have (been built in Canada by Canadian money land owned by the Canadian Government; land I am very glad to know that hon. members opposite join with hon. members on this side in

favouring the policy |that the Canadian Government are undertaking in the building, permanently as I have stated, of steel vessels to keep the present yards going. I hope a little later on, as the finances of the country become less strained, that the appropriation which is allotted to my department for building steel isihips will he very much greater than it is at present.
In addition to the two ships that are being built by the Canadian Vickers Company for the Canadian Government, another ship of about five thousand tons is being built by the Wallace Shipbuilding Company at Vancouver. Another vessel of 3,550 tons is being built by the Collingwood Shipbuilding Company, of Collingwood. Hon. gentlemen will understand that vessels that are being built in the yards on the great lakes are necessarily limited, as to size and tonnage, so as to conform to the depth of water in the canals. Ships that are being built ini any of the yards on. the great lakes cannot draw more than fourteen feet of water, which necessarily needs a limitation as to size in the case of these vessels. At the present time the Dominion Government have these four vessels under construction.


Andrew Ross McMaster: Are you building the vessels in question under contract, or on the cost and percentage plan?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The ships are ordered at so much per ton. I, for one, do not believe, and neither does the Government, in having ships built on a percentage basis. Furthermore, I would not like the House to think that I accept the first price that is given to me by any of these shipbuilders at so much per ton for a completed ship, according to the design, blue prints and specifications of the Government, for I certainly do not. I am pleased to say that in the department we have so ne very able men. Mr. Duguid, the naval architect, is a man who has had a splendid training, extending over many years in some of the largest shipyards in England. We also have expert men possessing a thorough knowledge of marine boilers and marine engines, as well as many expert draughtsmen. There are, as I stated a moment ago, three different types of Canadian ships under construction: The eight thousand tonner, the five thousand tonner, and the smaller sized ship of three thousand five hundred and fifty tons. The technical officers of my department estimate what the cost of a ship will be. We also ascertain what a similar ship -a vessel of the same design, class and tonnage-is being built for in the United

States and in Britain. With this information from both the countries referred to, and our own estimated cost, we have a very excellent check on the Canadian shipbuilders, which prevents them charging us an unfair or unreasonable price for the vessel to be constructed. Hon. gentlemen will, therefore, gather from what I have stated that these vessels are built at so much per completed ton according to the blue prints and the detailed specifications of the Department of Marine and Fisheries.
As the berths to which I have alluded become vacant from time to time they will be immediately taken up by the Canadian Government, and the existing steel shipbuilding plants throughout Canada will be occupied to their full capacity. I cannot state how many ships are being built by the Imperial Munitions Board at the present time, but the Prime Minister gave that information to the House on the opening day of Parliament. One of the difficulties that confronted me in taking up this important matter-


Charles Murphy: I am sorry to interrupt the minister, but was there any co-operation betweeen the Government and the Imperial Munitions Board, or were the respective programmes carried out entirely se-parately.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: They are entirely separate, the Canadian Government or the Department of Marine and Fisheries have absolutely nothing at all to do with the Imperial Munitions Board, so far as relates to our shipbuilding programme, and any ships that the latter has ordered are for Imperial account. The duty of the Imperial Munitions Board is to see that they are finished and paid for;
5 p.m. and the Canadian Government assumes no responsibility for any of the ships that are under construction at the present time for the Imperial Munitions Board.
I was about to say that one of the first difficulties that confronted me when considering the adoption of a permanent shipbuilding policy, was that of steel ship's plates. I think hon. gentlemen are aware that there is no duty on ship's plates coming into Canada. They are doubtless also aware that there has not been, and there is not at the present time, a rolling mill in Canada for the manufacture of these plates. If Canada is to become a shipbuilding nation, as I see no reason why she should not


Rodolphe Lemieux: Hear, hear.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: -it is necessary for her to ibe self-contained insofar as concerns all the material that is required for 'building these mercantile ships; and one of the first things that I set about to try and obtain for Canada was a large plate mill, so that all the plates required for the ships that we are now building, and I hope also for a very much larger programme later on, would be made in our own 'country. I took the matter up with the large steel manufacturers. I did not confine myself to the manufacturers in this country, but also went to the United States steel .companies, and asked them what kind of proposition they could place 'before the Canadian Government in order that we would secure what steel plates we required here. After several months of negotiations with the several steel companies in Canada and in the United States, I am. happy to say that the best and' most favourable proposition I could get, -and the one that was'accepted by my colleagues, was the one submitted to us iby the Dominion Iron and Steel Company of Sydney.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There being no duty on ship's plates, we could not expect any large industry, either in Canada or in the United States,, to come to this country and undertake the1 erection of a plant for rolling ship's plates, that would involve at least $5,000,000 capital expenditure without any protection whatever. These are not days when the policy of protection needs be discussed, and as we are more concerned with the prosecution of the war than with tariff matters, I did not raise the tariff question with my colleagues at all, nor do I intend to do so with hon. members of this House. We went about the task in another -manner, which I hope will receive the unanimous approval of the House. In 'brief, the contract that I have concluded with the Dominion Iron andi Steel Company of Sydney was made- on the following basis-: The Dominion Government have guaranteed to the .Dominion Iron and -Steel Company of -Sydney that they will have a -minimum tonnage of fifty thousand tons of ship plates a year, extending over a period of five years, making in -all a to-tal tonnage of two hundred and fifty thousand tons-. The price per hundred pounds for the moment is $4.15. The safeguarding of the public interest, in so- far as the price is- concerned, from -time to time, has been arranged on the following basis : Hon. gentlemen are no. doubt aware that ship plates are made from steel ingots.

which in turn are made from pig iron, the pig iron (being produced from, iron o-re. I am happy to state that the Dominion Iron and Steel Company own and operate within British territory facilities to produce all the raw materials that I have just mentioned as being required for the rolling of ship's plates.	.
We have taken, as a basis to adjust this price every six months, the price per ton of steel ingots. The price at the time the contract was entered into for steel ingots was $25.50 per ton. The price of plates to start with is $4.15, based on an ingot price of $25.50 per ton. These prices were agreed upon after long weeks of negotiation, and I was accused in a friendly way perhaps, toy Mr. Mark Workman, of the Dominion Iron and Steel Company, of driving too hard a bargain with them on behalf of the people of Canada. I do not think that is exactly so, because I consider the contract we have entered into is eminently fair to the Dominion Iron and Steel Company as it is also fair to the Dominion of Canada and the Government. The mill will take about fifteen months to be erected, and Mr. Workman estimates that it will cost about $5,000,000. The Government does not put up one cent of money for the erection of this mill. The Government was pressed to advance this money, hut I declined to make such a recommendation to my colleagues, because I considered that the Dominion Iron and Steel Company is strong enough to put up the $5,000,000 required for the plant, and I, therefore, recommended to my colleagues that we do not advance the money. Accordingly, the Dominion Iron and Steel Company are going to erect this plant at their own cost.


Andrew Ross McMaster: What is that $4.15? The minister did not give us the unit. Is it $4.15 per plate?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The price.of steel ingots is $25.50 per ton, and the price of plates is $4.15 per one hundred pounds. The Dominion Iron and Steel Company claim that within twelve to fifteen months they-will be turning out all the ship plates the Dominion wants.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Has, a contract been
signed?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Not yet, but it will be in a ferw days.


Rodolphe Lemieux: As soon as it is, will the minister lay it on the table of the House?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Certainly, with
pleasure. The Order in Council has been passed, approving the terms agreed upon, and when the contract is signed, I shall lay it upon the table of the House.


Rodolphe Lemieux: If the minister can lay the Order in Council on the Table this week that will be satisfactory.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I shall be very glad to do so. The Dominion Iron and Steel Company are financing this mill, and the capacity of the mill, they estimate, wili be 150,000 tons of plate per year. I wish to point out that, in addition to ship plate, it is estimated that there are about 50,000 tons of other plate, such as boiler plate, used in [DOT]Canada. There is no duty on tooiler plate, nor on ship plate. This mill will toe a new national industry for Canada, and not only will it turn out the ship plates which we shall require here, and which, I think, even with the existing yards we have, will run something like 75,000 tons a year, tout there is no reason why the Dominion Iron and (Steel (Company Should not ,be able to get orders for, if not the whole, at least a part of the 50,000 tons of plate used for other purposes than for ships.
To follow along the policy of safeguarding the public interest and the interest of the Government, so that we shall not toe paying too much for ship plate, I may say that after the mill has run for six months turning out the plate, the price of the plate will toe determined on the fluctuating price for steel ingots 'based on a price of $25.50 per ton. We were also able to arrange with the Dominion Iron and Steel Company, also with a great deal of reluctance on their part, that no matter how high the price of steel ingots goes, in no event will the price of steel plate cost the Government any higher price than $4.25 per hundred pounds. If the price of steel ingot drops over a period of six months the price of plate will toe lowered accordingly. We are not going to take the Dominion Iron and (Steel Company's say-so as to what their cost will ibe, so we have a clause in the contract that the Dominion Government shall send out expert accountants, whom we shall name, to go over the 'books and costs of the company, and if the price of steel ingots has fallen during the period of six months they will see to it that the Government gets a proportionate reduction in the price of steel plates. Those are the essential points in the contract into which we are about to enter. The further particulars will toe known to hon. inemtoers when the Order in Council is laid upon the Tatole.

There is another clause in that contract into which we are about to enter, and it is: that on all the plant and machinery that the Dominion Iron and1 Steel Company will require to import into Canada for the ship-plate mill they will pay duty, and that duty will afterwards be refunded.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Hear, hear.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: and technical workers required for "building ships in Canada. Everybody is agreed-this House, the people of 'Canada and of the British Empire, and all our Allies-as to the necessity for ships, ships1, and more ships, and although the operation of the Military Service Act does not come under my jurisdiction, I can say to my hon. friend that the representations that have been made and which will be made in the future to the proper tribunals for the exemption of these men will be given every consideration, and care will be taken to safeguard the interests of this country and of the Empire toy seeing that the necessary number of men are retained in the ship yards to carry out the programme of the Dominion Government.


Andrew Ross McMaster: Did I understand the minister to say that Canada advanced money to the Imperial Munitions Board for the building of ships by that Board?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: That is correct.


Andrew Ross McMaster: What control have the Canadian people over the money which the Imperial Munitions Board use for the building of ships, or is the money merely lent to the Board?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The money is merely lent to the Board, as a hank would lend money to a private individual or 'business concern.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: 1 ^represent a constituency which at one time was the centre of the wooden shipbuilding industry in Canada, and before giving my cordial approval to the Government's plan of steel shipbuilding I should' like to toe informed whether the minister has made a full investigation into the possibilities of reviving the wooden shipbuilding industry, and whether or not experts have given it as their considered opinion that wooden ships could not be used to increase the world's tonnage with the same good effect as steel ships.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Government,
and I, as the minister charged with the responsibility of seeing that the Government's shipbuilding programme is carried out, looked very carefully into that question, but, as I stated in my remarks a few minutes ago, the Government's policy being only to keep the steel shipbuilding yards in Canada busy, our financial ability will not permit us to go beyond that. My hon. friend from South Quebec (Mr. Power) will agree that, as a business proposition and as a national proposition, hearing in mind that these ships are being built not for to-

day only, tout for the future, it is a wiser policy for Canada to put her money into steel shipbuilding than to put it into wooden ships. I am not saying anything derogatory to the wooden ships, but the speed of a wooden ship is very much less than that of a steel ship, her carrying capacity is less, and the wooden ship is debarred from the submarine zone because her speed being so slow, she presents a very much better target for submarine torpedoes. But the latter argument is not the one that causes 'the Government to go in for steel shipbuilding. The other arguments which I have just presented carried more weight.


Hon. Mr. FIELDING:: I suppose, in a
matter of such importance, with so many details, we should all feel disposed to reserve our judgment on matters of detail, so that if any question arises later on we may be free to inquire into it. Subject to that I want to offer my congratulations to the hon. 'Minister of Marine and Fisheries on the exceedingly interesting and most admirably clear statement he has made on an undertaking of so much importance to the country. I think the House has received the announcement very favourably, and we shall all desire, when the details come to be considered, that there may he nothing found in them which- will lead us to withdraw our good opinion of the minister's programme.
I think the Government should be congratulated upon giving their attention just now to steel shipbuilding which of course does not necessarily imply that they lack appreciation of the importance of wooden shipbuilding. My own judgment is that we do not need any particular stimulus for wooden shipbuilding in our country. It is an art with which many of our people are quite familiar. I do not know whether there is a revival in the ancient city of Quebec of the great art of wooden shipbuilding, hut in the Maritime Provinces there is a very large measure of activity all along our coast. In my own constituency several wooden ships are being built. I am afraid the conflict between iron and wood and steel was settled some years ago when, in the age of progress through which we were passing, the fact had to be recognized that the wooden ship must give way to the iron ship, and the iron ship in turn must give way to 'the steel ship. By and by we will return to those conditions when tlhe large wooden ships will hardly have much chance in competition with the large steel ships. There has been in the past, and I believe there will be in the future, quite

a demand for wooden ships of the smaller class. I believe the conditions thaJt will exist at the close of the war, and for some years after the war, will be such that there will be large opportunity for the wooden shipbuilders of the country to engage .in their enterprise. So that I feel that, in giving the preference to steel shipbuilding, as the hon. minister is doing, there is no danger of any injustice being done to the wooden shipbuilding industry. I believe that industry will flourish for some years to come without .any particular aid from the Government.
Steel shipbuilding is, in a measure, a new industry here. It has been carried on in a small way, but owing to the very fact that the hon. gentleman has stated: that we had no plate mill in the country, we could not expect to engage in the enterprise in a very large way. As I happen to know something of the formation of the Dominion Steel Company, and as I was, in some measure, identified in a modest degree some years ago with the creation of this splendid industry in 'Cape Breton, I take a particular pleasure to-day in hearing the minister make the announcement that he is arranging to. have a contract with the Dominion Steel Company, whereby the steel plates will be made in the works at Sydney. Altogether, I am sure the House has been deeply interested in the statement of my hon. friend, and I offer him my hearty congratulations on it.


Andrew Ross McMaster: Before the item is further considered, I may be allowed1 to make some observations upon it. First of all, the minister may never need to apologize for addressing this House, because he is possessed of one great outstanding virtue, namely, that when he rises in his place and speaks, we can all hear him. with ease. In harmony with this acclaim of congratulations this afternoon, I wish to. congratulate the minister, but on somewhat different grounds. The .minister said he was able to induce people to start a valuable industry in this country by allowing their machinery to come in free, or rather allowing the machinery to come in on payment of the diuty -and afterwards refunding the duty to these people.


Rodolphe Lemieux: That was done in a
moment of weakness.


Andrew Ross McMaster: The point I wish to
make is that, if it is a good thing in Canada to permit manufacturers to bring in free of duty machinery for making ships,
it might be a good, thing in Canada to allow machinery for other purposes- to- be brought in free. I would not like this occasion to pass without saying that I hope that the minister's attitude that no large industry can be started or perpetuated in Canada without artificial encouragement by means of a bonus or tariff will not be endorsed. I would not like that statement to pass unchallenged, because I trust he is wrong. I trust there are industries in this- country which do not need any encouragement by bounty or tariff. The building of ships is a -war measure. If -artificial stimulation is required it should he given, but it should not be given-, I take it, as a matter of principle. My recollection, of course, does not go so far back as the- recollection of the hon. member (Mr. Fielding) but I am old enough to know that the industrial history of this country is emphasized here and there by large companies who enjoyed bounty encouragement and tariff encouragement, and who, when they were making too much profit, capitalized that profit against the people of Canada by watering their stock in most lavish fashion. I make these remarks not in any way to detract from the congratulations that have been showered on the minister-because he deserves these congratulations for the way he has placed this matter before the House-but in order to put myself, and, I believe, some of my friends on both sides of the House, on record that we are not absolutely wedded to the principle of protection.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Before proceeding with the estimates, I want to thank the bon-. member for Queens-Shelburne for his kind words of commendation on the Government's policy of shipbuilding, and I am pleased that he thought we picked on the right firm and the right province in Canada in which to have the ship plates rolled. In addition to that, I w-ant to give a little further word of encouragement to my hon. friend, Mr. Fielding, to whom this country is indebted in a very large measure for his patriotic services, that while at the present time I regret that there are no steel shipbuilding yards in the Maritime Provinces, -and while our programme is limited, as I stated, to the amount of the expenditure we can afford to allocate for shipbuilding, at the same time I have been giving a lot of attention during the last few weeks, and so have my colleagues, to the question of having a large steel shipbuilding industry located somewhere in the Maritime Provinces, so that steel ships may


Rodolphe Lemieux: Will there not be
rolling mills also at Montreal?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There is no reason why rolling mills should he confined to any one particular province hut it is not an attractive business [proposition' at the present time. There are not many financiers or industrial men in this country who want to put $5,000,000, or even $3,000,000, into a plant that has absolutely no protection whatever. If any other group of financiers wish to enter into the rolling of ships' plates, either in Montreal or in any other part of Canada, 1 will not say that the Government will give them the same assistance that we have found it necessary to give the Dominion Iron and Steel 'Company-I think hon. members will agree that it was necessary to do that to get the first mill started-but if any other group of financiers wish to start into the rolling of ships' plates without any duty, the Government will be very pleased indeed to see them do it.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I have a clipping from the Graphic newspaper published in C'amplbellton, N.B., which reads as follows:
The Graphic in conversation with a gentleman who is interested was informed yesterday that if the town of Campbellton would provide a free site and exemption for a term of years, his Arm would seriously consider the establishment of a ship-building plant here.
That such an industry would be -of immense benefit to Oampihellton goes without saying, and' nothing we can do should be left undone to induce the firm to establish a plant here.
We would suggest that the town council place itself on record as willing to assist such an industry.

The town of Campbellton is tan important harbour in the northern part of the province. I would ask 'the minister if he knows anything about the transaction that ie referred to here or if it is about to take place. Has Ihe heard! anything about a shipbuilding plant being established at Campbellton, and, if so, what?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We have noit received any proposition from Oaimpbellton or from any financier who 'contemplates the establishment of a 'Shipbuilding plaint there. I have already, I hope, clearly explained to hon. members that we hope to see more ship yards in Canada than exist at the present time but we are limited as to the creation and expansion of ship yards owing to the financial condition of the country. If the finances of 'the Dominion -exchequer will permit an extension of our programme, we certainly will not forget Campbellton if its citizens should put a proper proposal before us.


Joseph Read: I want to join with other hon. members, especially on this side of the House, in congratulations to the hon. the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Ballantyne). But I wish to advise him also that he gets a good deal of sympathy, particularly from this side of the House, and to point out to him the reason why that is so. I hold in my hand a paper called the Halifax Herald. I understand this is the personal organ of the right hon. the Prime Minister, but notwithstanding that, it contains one of the most vicious attacks upon my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries that I have ever known to be made upon a public servant.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Shame.


Joseph Read: It is a shame, coming from a senator and a man who obtained his position, I think, through the good graces of the present Dominion Government. This attack of the Prime Minister's organ on my hon. friend is a disgraceful thing altogether. Did my hon. friend see it?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No.


Joseph Read: I am almost ashamed to read it.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Read it.


Joseph Read: It is as follows:
Halifax, March 12.-Further investigation by The Halifax Herald in shipping and pilotage circles yesterday has brought additional and conclusive evidence that there must be a shake-up of no meagre dimensions at Ottawa. The pilots' story that a steamer laden with high explosives was allowed to lay in the fairway

of the harbour one day last week for seven hours, was fully confirmed, and in getting the "confirmation other details of a most startling nature were disclosed.
The Halifax Herald is scrupulously careful to abide by the rules of the censorship and anything calculated to furnish information to the enemy is gladly withheld from publication. There is not a man familiar with marine affairs at this port, not a Nova Scotia captain who has gladly given his services to the work of naval patrol, not a master mariner who regularly brings in and takes out his steamer, but what has a story to tell of stupidity, of pigheadedness, of 'bungling in connection with the affairs of the port and, following up these stories, the trail leads directly to Ottawa and reveals a heterogeneous bunch of incompetents who may know the ways of society, who may be able to judge aright the merits of various blends of wine, but who certainly do not know the ways of ships and are not able to judge the competence of those whom they place in charge.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Shame.


Joseph Read: (reading)
In times of peace we should not have such men at the head of affairs of a maritime nature. To have them in such position in these awful d'ays of war is evidence of a laxity on the part of our people, a laxity which has already led to fatal consequences and which should, perchance a break be made through the British fleet, lead to awful disaster. God forbid that a change at Ottawa be withheld until such a time comes.
It took one of the greatest disasters the world has ever known, to partially arouse those in authority, but those who were in supreme authority then are still in authority. Britain, France, Italy, the United States-


The CHAIRMAN:: Order. I have been *waiting very patiently to see what reference the article that the hon. member was reading might have to the vote under consideration. But I find that instead of coming nearer to the vote it is going farther and farther away from it, and I must therefore ask the hon. gentleman to desist from reading the article.


Joseph Read: The item reads:
" To provide for the maintenance and upkeep of ships, Naval College, dockyards at Halifax and Esquimalt, and Royal Naval Canadian Volunteer Reserve." The whole question that is involved in this article is the very vote under consideration. Now, I will just finish reading

The -CHAIRMAN: Order. I rule that the hon. gentleman imust desist. He can either submit to the ruling or appeal to the House.


Joseph Read: I accept your ruling Mr. Chairman. As I said before, I want to congratulate the hon. minister upon the ability that he has displayed in his office. I am perfectly satisfied in -my own mind
that he is one of the best men we ever had at -the head of the Marine Department.
Some hon MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


Joseph Read: I do not endorse that article, I want it distinctly understood. And I would like hon. gentlemen, and the present Government, to understand that they are going to get my unqualified support in everything they do that I think is right. I am not a partisan, and I am not going to be one.
I was going to remark, however, with regard to the great shipbuilding problem before this country at present, that I had the pleasure of visiting British Columbia recently, and while there went through one of the shipyards that the ihon. minister stated he has given a contract to, the Wallace Shipbuilding Company at Vancouver. I am rather surprised that none of the members from British Columbia' have spoken on this question, because I saw there the most marvellous development of shipbuilding that -can, possibly be found in the world. I stood in that shipyard and saw the workmen moulding the plates for the building of the ships. One of the most intricate pieces of work in connection with shipbuilding is the making of the bilge plates of a beautiful steel ship. Four men were handling that plate. Not a blow was being struck, not a bit of human muscle was being exercised, no brawn was being used except in simply moving the plate along to receive the pressure that was coming from the mountain that stood within view of the very men that were handling the plate. There they weTe, drawing energy from " white coal " which was generated from a mountain lake, and they were moulding that plate into that intricate shape, ready to put on the ship's bottom, without using a mallet, a chisel, or a maul. It was a marvellous thing, and it showed that the people of British Columbia, at any rate, have all the necessary elements to compete with anything in the world in the building of ships. I found that not only were they moulding plates by means of electrical energy, but they were cutting off their great beams with an instrument just like a pencil following a line, cutting off great beams, six inches square, with a jet of electric flame, and the celebrated acetylene gas that is used in connection with it. All the riveting and that sort of thing is being done by the same power. There is no doubt in the world but that we can build ships in Canada. We built them before. There was a time in our history, in the early sixties, I think, when



Canada-little undeveloped Canada-stood second, or, at any rate, third, in the whole coterie of the nations of the earth in point of tonnage. And, during those years the men who went down to the sea in ships from the Maritime Provinces and the province of Quebec were second to no men in the world. They were first. Very few sailors amongst them, because they were not very long at the business, but they developed to such a marvellous extent into officers that one would think they were all precocious boys. I have seen young men, taken out of the green woods in the province of Prince Edward Island, in two years' time become masters of square rigged ships in the foreign service; they were the greatest successes that any country ever produced. Anything that the hon. minister can do to build up a mercantile navy I am sure will be to the interest of Canada as a whole, as well as to the interest of those centres which have the good fortune to have the industry established amongst them.
I want it to be distinctly understood that I do not endorse any of that stuff that I read from the Halifax Herald.


Mr. J. F. JOHNSTON:: Might I ask the minister if his department is experiencing any difficulty in getting shipbuilders in Canada to accept contracts at the present time? The reason I ask is, that it has been brought to my attention by a gentleman of prominence in marine circles that shipbuilders are not accepting contracts from the Government as readily as they might on account of the exacting terms of the contracts. I would like to have the answer of the minister.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: In answer to the hon. gentleman, it has not come to my notice that we have had any difficulty at all in placing orders for steel ships in Canada. Whenever the berths become vacant we find the shipbuilders eager and anxious for business. It has1 not been brought to my [DOT] notice that there is any condition such as my hon. friend has mentioned.


Mr. E. LAPOINTE:: Will the hon. minister inform the committee why there is such a large decrease in the item compared with last year?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Hon. gentlemen will notice that the vote for this same item in 1917-18 amounted to $1,000,000. We are asking the House to vote now $600,000, which is $400,000-less than last year. I will give the reason for the reduction very briefly. This is a reduction of $400,000 on the esti-
mates passed for the fiscal year 1917-18. Last year the vote was partly nominal, as stores purchased and distributed to Canadian, British and Allied vessels in connection with the prosecution of the war were charged to this vote, and refunds were then credited thereto. For the present year the system of bookkeeping for store expenditures has been changed and such expenditures will be charged directly to the war vote, any refund's being credited to that vote. The item for the coming year is to cover the cost of maintaining the Royal Naval College, the expenditure on headquarters permanent naval staff and some of the expenditures of the dockyards at Halifax and Esquimalt. I might explain that it is the policy now for Canada to be called upon by the Imperial Government to furnish provisions for a great many of the Imperial ships at Halifax and at Esquimalt. Canada supplies the provisions necessary for these British ships and we charge the amount to the Imperial Government, and it is refunded later. Charging a certain sum this year to the war appropriation is the reason the amount is $400,000 less than last year.
Fisheries Protection Service-to provide for the repairs and maintenance of Fisheries Protection Steamers, $300,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I suppose this applies to the Government Fisheries Protection Steamer " Princess," and also to the lightships?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No. We have on the Fisheries Protection Service on the East Coast:	"The Canada," "The Curlew," " The Constance," " The Gulnare," and " The Petrel." On the West Coast there are three ships, and on the great lakes, I think, one. These comprise our Fisheries Protection vessels.
At six o'clock the Committee took recess.
After Recess.
The Committee resumed at eight o"clock.
The Naval Service-Radiotelegraph service- To provide for the building and maintenance of wireless stations, $225,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I would like to get from the minister some information as to this vote. How many wireless stations are under the control of the department? How many .men are employed? Is the department encouraging the study of radiotelegraphy?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We have at the present time 184 coast, land and ship stations in Canada, of which 66 are Govern-

ment land and ship stations. The total personnel employed in the Dominion is 506, 239 of whom are in the Government employ, and 276 are employed by commercial companies. We have a school in Ottawa with about sixty attending.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What are the arrangements for the students? Do they get scholarships? Is the Government paying them directly or indirectly to study radiotelegraphy? The minister will, of course, understand this is a very important item. Wireless telegraphy has rendered great service to the navy and to the merchant marine, and its use has become universal. I am quite sure that when peace is restored wireless telegraphy will be of immense service for our ships at sea. In normal times, we know, the S.O.S. call in the midst of the ocean has saved many ships. It will be interesting to know that the Department of Marine and Fisheries of Canada is encouraging the study of radiotelegraphy. I am pleased to be able to say that Canada .was the first country to encourage Signor Marconi to establish the system, the first official station being bonused by the Canadian Government. It is quite a credit to Canada, and I would be glad to know that, under the direction of the minister, similar encouragement will be given in the future. I understand that the department was represented some few years ago at a congress of radiotelegraphy held in Europe, I think at London, at which rules and regulations were drafted and accepted by a number of the governments of the world. Perhaps the minister is not familiar with the sittings of that congress, but he might, at some later date, give the House information on that subject. At all events, I wish to state that it would be a most interesting development for Canada and for the future of our merchant marine that wireless stations on board ships be 'made compulsory.	1


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am pleased to advise the hon. member that they are compulsory at the present time. Every vessel of over 1,600 tons is compelled to have a qualified operator on board. The radiotelegraph school was formerly, as hon. members will no doubt know, at Halifax, but owing to the terrible catastrophe that happened there on. December 6 last, the 'headquarters were removed to Ottawa. All those operators are sworn in for the duration of the war as belonging to the Royal Canadian Navy. They are engaged first as learners, and then, if they pass all the examinations to become 23}
operators, they are sent to itlhe various stations throughout Canada. As regards the conference that took place at London, while I was present at the time in London, I am not familiar with all the details, but I shall be glad to give the details later on.
Mr. LEMilEUX: Some six years ago my successor in the Post Office Department, Hon. Mr. Pelletier, introduced a Bill in this House with a view to getting cheaper rates for the transmission of messages across the ocean. A^ contract was signed with a company having its own system of radio-telegraphy-!I forget the name of the company and the system. The contract was a most favourable one. Last year, at the end of the session, my hon. friend's predecessor, Hon. Mr. Hazen, introduced a Bill, giving to the Marconi Company the benefit of that contract, the contract being transferred to that company. Mr. Allan, of Montreal, as the minister knows very well, is the president of 'that company. Does the minister know whether the company has done anything?-(whether the contract has been adhered to? I was very pleased to see last year that the board of directors was under the chairmanship of my friendi Mr. Allan of Montreal, a well-known and highly respected citizen. I understand that this matter is under the direction of either the Marine Department or the Post Office Department, I am not sure which. Has anything been done in connection with that Marconi Company?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I understand that,
my predecessor, Hon. Mr. Hazen, introduced a Bill to enable that company to operate, hut they were not 'able to do eo, and I understand the company has gone into liquidation.


Mr. MORPHY:: I notice there is a decrease in this item of $70,000 from the appropriation of last year, which decrease seems to he commendable. This item is to provide for the building and maintenance of wireless stations. How many stations does the minister contemplate building and where are they to be located?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Government
have not under consideration the erection of any stations at all. The estimates for 1918 are reduced by the amount of $70,000 through the omission of an item providing for the construction of a station on Hudson Strait. I understand the station was not gone on with.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: That does not quite
answer the question. This item is to provide for the building and maintenance of wireless stations. My question was, how many stations, if any, is it proposed to build and where?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I thought I made myself clear to the hon. member that we were not going to build any stations.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Then what is the money for?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: For the maintenance and carrying on of the stations.


Mr. CAHILL:: Why was the station referred to not built?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There was no necessity for providing that service until such time ae the Hudson Bay railway should 'be completed.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Later on, when the war is over, I would like the hon. minister to look into the matter of wireless telegraphy from the point of view of state ownership. Actually, we are paying very high rates for cablegrams. It is true that there has been a reduction in the rates of some cable companies, due to a long agitation, although that reduction has been withdrawn during the war, except at certain times. I think that every Saturday evening cablegrams can. be sent at reduced rates if addressed to some one in the army or connected with the military service. But after the war is over, the hon, minister, as head of the department supervising this service, should concentrate his attention on that phase of the question, namely a reduction in the tolls for transmitting telegrams across the
There has been in the British Empire during the last twenty-five years a constant agitation, first to reduce the postal rates and the cable rates. It has been, found, after practical experiment, that the lower the rates the more money came into the treasury. The apostles of that postal reduction were, first, Rowland Hill, -and 'later Mr. Henniker Heaton, the member 'for Canterbury, England. He was an Australian, by the way, but he sat in the British House of Commons for twenty-five years. He died at Geneva at the 'beginning of the war. But he agitated until finally he was the chief promoter of the postal conference which, under the Duke of Norfolk, brought about the two-eent rate throughout the British Empire; and it is well to remember that this reduction was proposed by the then
[Mr. Ballantvne.l
Postmaster General of Canada, Sir William Mulock. But the agitation didi not stop there. Mr. Heaton was engaged even up to the time of his death in an endeavour to secure a reduction in the cable rates; and, ae the cable companies were strongly opposed to any such reduction, Mr. Henniker Heaton, in league with SignoT Marconi, was about to obtain cheaper rates for the transmission of wireless communications.
It seems to me that Canada, being the largest and oldest Dominion in the Empire, is very much interested in this matter of cheaper communication by wireless with the Mother - Country. We are interested because we have such a large flow of immigration from the British Isles, and these immigrants, largely settlers in the West, are at times, because of their family connections on the other side, obliged to have rapid transmission of messages to their folks at home. We know that a letter takes too long to travel, although before the war we were blessed with a relatively fast steamer service across the Atlantic. Not only are we interested from the point of view of communications which may pass privately between our immigrants in the West and their families in the British Isles, but we are also largely interested in getting a cheap news service for our newspapers. The news which comes from Europe in ordinary times is more or less tainted- and I do not use that word in any offensive sense-with the American touch.


Mr. JACOBS:: Hew about the North-cliffian touch?


Rodolphe Lemieux: I am not referring to individuals. But it seems to me of the utmost importance that we should get a cheap news service direct to Canada without relying on the service to New York, Boston or other points in the United States. I am speaking of conditions that would obtain in normal times if we ean establish a wireless system which will compete with the cable companies, and it is only by competition that we shall have cheaper rates.
Now, this is a very important point, in my judgment. Some years ago, when I had the honour to be Postmaster General of Canada, I obtained from the Postmaster General of England cheap postal rates for British newspapers and magazines, and as a result these were to be seen in every railway station and bookstore in Canada. I made a calculation at the time, and by comparing the dead weight of the number of bags and baskets at Rimouski and Hali-

fax filled with magazines and newspapers, found that in less than six months after having obtained that cheap postal rate we had nearly doubled the circulation of these periodicals, and after a year or so there was - no more comparison, because the country was flooded with them. I thought it was a good service to Canada that we should, at all events, give the preference to that literature. I am sorry to say that for the last three or four years the arrangement between the two post offices has not been renewed; and, whilst I do not wish to discuss postal matters on this item, I desire to impress upon my hon. friend that he should not lose sight of the fact that for cheap news from Britain to Canada he must rely on the wireless system, because that system will give the necessary competition to the private-owned cable companies, and competition will bring down the rate. That is the reason I asked this evening if there was a school attached to the department in order to promote the system of radiotelegraphy. I believe in the future of radiotelegraphy, and I think it will be a blessing for Canada when we have stations dotting our shores from the 45th parallel as far north as possible, and when we have direct communication by wireless, not only with the British Isles, but from our western coast, with Japan. I hope I have not transgressed the rules too much, and I hope my hon. friend will accept my views in a good spirit, and will give heed to some of the advice which I have given him free of charge.


Samuel William Jacobs: The hon. gentleman from Maisonneuve (Mr. Lemieux) stated that he hoped the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries would do certain things to ameliorate conditions after the war is over. I hcpe my hon. friend from Maisonneuve is not raising any false delusions or forlorn hopes in the breast of She Minister of Marine and Fisheries, because it is quite possible the present minister may not occupy that position when the war is over. It is quite possible that the former Minister of Marine and Fisheries, the member for Maisonneuve, may hold that position, and may have to swallow the advice he has given to the present minister.
Patrol of the northern waters of Canada- $40,000.
Mr. MORPHY. Will the hon. Minister kindly explain what that item is for?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I think the hon.
gentleman is aware of the various expeditions which have started out, not only in the past few years, but in previous years,
both to the Arctic regions, and to the frozen regions of the South. The latest one is known as the Stefansson expedition. Stef-ansson is still in the North. I think the hon. gentleman is aware that they had rather a difficult time, lost their ship, and were stranded in the Far North nigh on to two years, and Stefansson is still there.
Life Saving- Stations-including rewards for saving life, $10'0,0'0'0.


Samuel William Jacobs: Are we going to provide
now for the saving of life, without knowing how many lives are going to he saved?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The hon. gentleman has certainly given me a poser, because if I knew how many lives were going to be lost, and where the loss would occur, we would have our life-saving apparatus ready, and no lives would be lost. But in regard to the life-saving stations, while I am asking hon. members to give their assent to this estimate of $100,000, I wish to explain that I am going thoroughly into all the life-saving stations from one end of Canada to the other. I want to be satisfied that they are giving the service that the Government would expect them to give and I also want to get a -more complete record of the dates when those stations were erected, whether they have saved any lives, how many, and at what dates. While I will use the utmost care and discretion, if I find I can close any of those stations and save some money to the country, hon. gentlemen may be quite sure that I will do so. I am at the moment giving this matter my very careful attention.
Royal Naval College of Canada-Restoration, $2*5,000'.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I wish to explain that I consider the vote here of $25,000 far too small and inadequate for what we may be called upon to do. The Naval College which was situate in Halifax, and which turned out so many cadets with such a high standard of efficiency, was almost blown to pieces when the catastrophe occurred in that city. The cadets were then temporarily transferred, through the kind courtesy of the Militia Department, to the Kingston Military College quarters. We do not know for the moment where they will be sent this fall, as we have not time to get a new Naval College erected at Halifax, and possibly will not have time to make adequate provisions for quarters there. If we are not able to provide accommodation there, we will probably send the cadets temporarily out to Esquimalt, and in the supplementary estimates, which are yet to come down, I
- COMMONS
may ask the support of hon. gentlemen opposite, as well as those on. this side of the House, for a larger appropriation. I think hon. gentlemen will understand that you could not build a college, or even a barn hardly for $25,000. I will ask them to be good enough to pass this item now, but I will probably put something more in the supplementary estimates.
Mr. CAh NON * When was the college established?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: In 1910.


Mr. CANNON:: Was it after tihe Naval Act was passed by the late 'Government, and was it in accordance with the law then passed?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: 
Lucien Cannon: Are there any training ships in Canada?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Oh, yes. I think most hon. members know that Canada has the Niobe and the Rainbow, and we have a large number of cadets constantly training on those vessels.


Lucien Cannon: Are those ships- solely employed for training purposes, or have they taken any part in actual warfare?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: They are more
largely devoted to training purposes than anything else, although the much maligned Niobe performed efficient service, which it would not be wise for me to explain to hon. members of this House, in connection *with the war. I may say our small navy, although it is very much larger than it used to be, is co-operating and has been co-operating with the naval authorities ever since the war broke out.
While the Niobe is not a fighting ship, she is performing very effective and valuable service at the port of Halifax, and the Rainbow also on the Pacific coast.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Is the ship of Commander Ross still in commission?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Lucien Cannon: The minister mentioned that the naval forces of Canada had been considerably increased of,, late. Will it be possible for the minister to give us some information as to the number of ships that

have been either built or obtained or taken over by the Government and which are actually controlled by my hon. friend's department?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am sorry that, owing to war conditions, as the hon. member will understand, I am unable to give publicly to the House the information that he has asked. If he would care to come to my office I would be very glad to give him the details in strictest confidence. Suffice it to say that the Canadian navy, small as it is, has played a very important part since the .war broke out, but it would not be wise or prudent for me to give the details.


Lucien Cannon: Will the minister tell me if whatever has been done as regards- the naval force has been in accordance with the Naval Act passed by the Laurier Administration?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I should say no to that. The additions that have been made to the Canadian navy, and the duties that various ships are performing, are in conformity with the wishes of the Imperial naval authorities.


Lucien Cannon: Under what -law is that done? Is it in accordance with an Order in Council or the existing law?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It is not at all necessary to have an Order in -Council. The hon. gentleman knows that the Naval Act is on the statute books of Canada.


Lucien Cannon: It is the Naval Act actually in the statutes that my hon. friend is using?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: As I said a moment ago, the Canadian Government are not following out the Liberal naval policy, but whatever we are doing we are doing under proper authority and working in harmony with and on the advice of the Imperial naval authorities.


Lucien Cannon: And under the existing law.
Ocean and river service-maintenance and repairs to Dominion steamers and ice breakers, $1,500,000.
(Mir. Du TREMBLAY:	There is an increase of $320,000. Would the minister explain why?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The amount that we are asking for is larger than las-t year.. The expenditure for nine months of 1917-18 ended the 31st December, .1917, has been increased 18-2 per cent over the expenditure of the corresponding period of the previous year.

This is required for toilers for the Montcalm and for repairs to quite a number of the Government steamers.
Mr. CASGRAItN: There is a special item for toilers, No. 206.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The amount of this vote has been increased by $320,000. The increase is required to meet the rapidly increasing cost of coal, material and labour for steamers whose operating expenses and repairs are paid out of this vote-the Aberdeen, Aranmore, Champlain, Estevan, Lady Grey, Lady Laurier, Montcalm, Nelson, Rou-ville and Stanley. .This amount is necessary for repairs to these vessels and also because of greatly increased cost of coal, wages, oil, etc.


William Stevens Fielding: Mr. Chairman, I would like to call the minister's attention to a matter concerning the ports on the south shore of Nova Scotia. Several of these ports, owing to the severe winter which we have passed through, have been closed or obstructed by ice. If I am not mistaken, and the horn, member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff) will correct me if I am, the port of Lunenburg was thus obstructed. Lunenburg is the most important fishing port in the Dominion. The port of Shelburne was obstructed. It is one of the finest harbours we have in the country. The port of Yarmouth, the gateway of western Nova Scotia, with its important traffic, also suffered some obstruction. In all these cases application had to be made to the Department of Marine and Fisheries for relief, and I am glad to be able to say that in every case the minister and his staff did the best they could in the matter, and that some relief was granted The object of my present remarks is to suggest to my hon. friend that it would be very desirable, in view of difficulties of that character, if a vessel suitable for the purpose were assigned to that class of service for a short period during the winter, probably about a couple of months. It would not need a powerful icebreaker of the class needed in the St. Lawrence region, A vessel or boat ordinarily employed for other purposes, but perhaps equipped with some little extra sheathing or something of the sort, located, perhaps, at Halifax, ito be ready for service of that character, would be able to render very necessary and valuable service. The ice which forms in these ports is not very thick and if attended to promptly it could be disposed of easily if the proper appliances were available, whereas, if it is allowed to become solid, difficulty may arise. The people in that part of the country appreciate the efforts of the Department of Marine and Fisheries to give them relief and are grateful for what has been done, but I would suggest to the hon. gentleman for his consideration whether i't would not be well to assign a special vessel to spend a couple of months at Halifax and be ready for an emergency of that character.
IMr. BALLANTYNE: I will be very glad to see if that cannot be done for another season. I am glad that my hon. friend (Mr. Fielding) has brought the matter to my attention.
Mr. LEM'IEUX: I wish to make the same request for the harbour of Gaspe. Gaspe is the greatest poTt of Canada. That is where the fleet assembled after the boys left Valcartier camp for England., You have probably 6een the picture of the fleet that anchored in the harbour of Gaspe when the boys left for the front. Every year-after the ice is clear in the gulf and after navigation has opened, the interesting population of Gaspe is bottled up. The farthest point of the bay is very narrow, the ice is very thick and the people are bottled up. There is no communication.
After several S.O.S. calls, during many years, the Marine Department decided to send, generally in April, one of the ice breakers or one of the other big steamers of the department to facilitate the opening of the harbour. The minister will probably hear from the people of Gaspe on the opening of navigation, and in making this request now I am simply giving him an advance notice.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: What are the names of the ice breakers that ply between Quebec and the north shore of the St. Lawrence in winter time, or are there any?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The steamer Montcalm.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Did the Montcalm make a trip this year?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Not since the early part of January. She is at present engaged with the Lady Grey in breaking the ice between Quebec and Montreal, and when she gets through there, if she is not damaged, the department hope to send her on one of her usual trips along the north shore as far as Seven islands.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I would suggest that it would perhaps be a good thing to send the Montcalm down to Seven islands and along

the north shore right now, because from newspaper reports the inhabitants there seem to be in a semi-starving condition. I am quite aware of the importance of having the ice cleared to open the port of Montreal early in the spring, but at the same time, with all due deference to the claims of the city of Montreal, I would urge the minister, in the cause of common humanity, to endeavour to succour the people along the north shore rather than help the financial interests of the great commercial port of Montreal.	,


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Montcalm and the Lady Grey are not breaking ice for the port of Montreal, but for the port of Quebec, which my hon. friend represents so well in this House. As soon as they get through breaking the ice for the port of Quebec, the Government will be very glad to send the Montcalm to the north shore. I wish to correct the hon. gentleman's impression that the inhabitants of the North shore are in a starving condition. As far as I can make out, they are short of certain emergency supplies, and these will be sent down on the Montcalm in a very short time.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I understand that the
Montcalm is breaking ice above Quebec, and as in the ordinary course of nature rivers flow down it would seem to ime that the ice is being broken for the port of Montreal which lies above" Quebec. Certainly the ice is not being broken to give access from the sea to the port of Quebec.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I quite understand that water flows down and that if the steamer breaks ice anywhere west of the port of Quebec that must naturally help the ports between Quebec and the city of Montreal, but the chief place where the ice breaking is being done is very close to the city of Quebec, as my hon. friend will admit.


Mr. CASGRAIN:: Why did the Champlain suspend its regular trips between Riviere Ouelle and Murray Bay and the ports on the North shore from some time after the middle of November last up until the end of December?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Champlain was in such an unseaworthy condition that she was withdrawn for repairs to her machinery.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: If I remember correctly the minister stated some time ago that another Government steamer called

the Bellechasse replaced the Champlain, for a while, but not for the whole time during which the Champlain was undergoing repairs. Why did not the Bellechasse continue until the Champlain was ready?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The bon. gentleman is aware what a severe winter we had; it set in much earlier this year than last, and the Bellechasse was unable to cope with the conditions, so the department had to withdraw her.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I would like to direct the attention of the minister to a state of affairs which certainly exists in the part of the country which I have the honour to represent. Perhaps all the hon. members of this House do not know the conditions of the people along the north shore of the river St. Lawrence, especially in the county of Charlevoix and down, below. As soon, as the fall comes the people there are absolutely cut off from the civilized world, and I am surprised that the Government is not taking steps to have the ships put in proper shape, always ready to cope with the situation, particularly at a time like last December, when a general election was on. At that time the boat service was absolutely discontinued, and it was very inconvenient to the electors, and to the candidate himself who had to travel all the way from Quebec to Murray Bay and other points on the north shore. I know that lots of electors were not able to record their votes because the service was discontinued.


Ernest Lapointe: What was your majority?
M,r. CASGRAIN: I got in anyway, by five thousand and over.


Ernest Lapointe: I suppose there is no intention on the part of the Government to discontinue the service of the Champlain between Riviere Ouelle and Murray Bay?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: None at all.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I do not object to the Champlain being withdrawn for a while for proper repairs. She is an excellent boat and was built in England, but she received so many bumps at the different wharves at Cap a l'Aigle, St. Iren^e, St. Denis, Murray Bay and elsewhere that at the end of last season she was in very poor shape. The captain himself told me that an accident might happen at any time. But certainly when the boat is withdrawn from the service it should be replaced, because, as my hon. friend has pointed out, the people on the North shore depend entirely on this ser-

vice. When the railway is ibuilt conditions will be improved, 'but the boat will still be necessary. A large population is absolutely dependent at the present time on the regular service of the Champlain.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Champlain runs from Riviere Ouelle to Murray Bay and St. Irenee, and it is the intention of the Government that she shall continue on that route. With regard to the North shore service, that does not pertain to my department, tout to the Department of Trade and Commerce, and I am sure my colleague will provide, if he possibly can, for regular trips to the North shore and the south as well.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: It is unfortunate that these repairs cannot toe made at a season when there are other boats to communicate with these ports, rather than in the fall, when the Richelieu and Ontario navigation boats do not go to the north shore. The repairs should toe made in the summer or early fall, when other boats are available for this service.


Lucien Cannon: 
An hon. MEMBER:: They had Victrolas.


Lucien Cannon: I understand all these
trips were most haTimonious, 'but at the present time, when the Government is urging, and rightly so, that the people should practise strict economy, all such things as I have described should be stopped immediately. I have no doubt that now my
hon. friend (Mr. Ballantyne) is at the head of the department there will be no repetition of them.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am certainly not aware of any such acts as the hon. gentleman has just described, but I will be very glad to make the most rigid investigation into his allegations. The charges he makes are not very -specific, however, and investigation therefore will be difficult.
Mr. 'CANNON: I -can make no more specific charges.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I aim not aware
that any member of the late Government did as he alleges, and I am quite sure that no -member of the present Government has ever used the steamer Champlain for excursions or picnics.


Lucien Cannon: I am -sorry to tell the minister that he is not well informed. The gentleman who did use the Champlain in the manner I have described -was a member o-f the Government at the same time as my hon. friend. He used this vessel quite often, and as the minister knows, these trips are very expensive. The -gentleman to whom I refer is no longer a member of the present Administration; he is now no more, but it is not his fault.
. Mr. JOS. READ: The minister is new to his department, and therefore, probably does not know very much about conditions obtaining in- the Straits of Northumberland prior to his- taking office. Im the winter -service between Prince Edward Island and the mainland, one of the steamers belonging to the Marine Department was formerly employed, but this vessel may have been transferred to the Railway Department. The inauguration of the car ferry system on the Straits of Northumberland has done away with the necessity of maintaining the winter boats, I hope for all time to come, thanks in large measure to the Prime Minister.
*Let me say that the car ferry is -an unqualified success, and has performed a service that nobody expected to be so successful. The car ferry is a tremendous ice-breaker, probably one of the best in the world, and its operation has changed the conditions down there. During the very severe weather of the past winter the car ferry has made a trip between the mainland and the island every day she was required to do so; in fact, the vessel sometimes made the trip two or three times. Notwithstanding that fact, however, the congestion of freight in Prince Edward Island was never so abnor-

mal as it is to-day. Everything in the way of freight was held up very largely all the winter, mainly because of difficulties arising in connection with the railroads. I would draw the minister's attention to the fact that a large portion of our produce still awaits shipment to the mainland, and a great deal of it is of a perishable nature. When the spring comes this produce must be got across to the mainland or it will be lost altogether. At a time like the present we do not want such a loss of produce to the Dominion if it is at all possible to avoid it. The two ports of Sum-9 p.m. merside and Charlottetown have always been opened by the winter steamers in the .spring. This year I presume the Stanley will not be in juxtaposition to these ports, and, therefore, will not be able to open them up. I would, therefore, ask the head of the department that has always opened these ports in the spring to use his influence with the Minister of Railways, and have a vessel detailed for this purpose when the time is opportune.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Department of Marine and Fisheries will only be too glad to go to the rescue of the Railway Department again when the necessity arises, and detail either -the steamer Stanley or the Aranmore for the required purpose.


Frank S. Cahill: This increase of $320,000 seems to be a large one in these times wlhan the curtailment of expenditures is called for. Is the .increase pninioipally due to extraordinary repairs, or maintenance charges.
(Mr. BALLANTYNE: It is due to. repairs, wages, fuel, oil, and all that sort of thing. The outlay for these purposes is very much higher than in normal times, and tihat is what makes up the $320,000.


Frank S. Cahill: It is an increase of something over twenty per cent.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: 
Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We found it absolutely necessary to put in new boilers into the Montcalm.


Frank S. Cahill: Are the items for repairs greater than usual?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I can give you all
- the details. We have twenty-three steamers, and the repairs of the hulls and engines amount to $257,340. That embraces nearly the wlhole amount.


Lucien Cannon: A few years 'ago the steamer Montmagny >was wrecked. Has any attempt been made to float her, and if so, by whom?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: All attempts made
to raise the vessel have been quite unsuccessful. A tender was awarded to a Quebec -firm for that purpose, but, I am sorry 'to say, without any success.


Lucien Cannon: What firm was given the task of floating the 'ship?
Mir. iBALLANTYNE:	I am not quite
certain; I think it was 'a company called the St. Charles Navigation lOomipany, a Quebec company.


Lucien Cannon: What were the conditions of the contract which was awarded to the company in question?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: If the company
raised the steamer they were to pay the department $25,000, but they were unable to do so.


Lucien Cannon: Then, as I understand, the Government practically sold the ship [DOT] for $25,000?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: That would have been correct had the company accomplished the task it set out to perform.
iMr. OANNON: What time had they in which to float the ship?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There was not any specific time, they were given a reasonable opportunity to see if they could accomplish their task, and they were unable to do so. W e now consider the contract null and void.
Mr. 'CANNON: Has any other contract been given?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No other contract has been awarded.


Lucien Cannon: Has the department any intention of making further attempts to float the ship?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We will be very glad to favourably consider any offer that is made to the department. At the moment we have not received any.


Lucien Cannon: I understand that in the Quebec papers a few days ' ago it was reported that a gentleman offered to float the

Montmagny provided he received financial aid either from the citizens or from the Government. It would be a good thing for the minister to help that man if his proposition is really a serious one. The Montmagny was a beautiful ship, and it is really too bad that she should be left in the river without any attempt being made to float her, which, I understand, it would be rather easy to do.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I think it is more difficult than the hon. member appreciates, but if he will have his friends come and see me, we are open to receive offers to raise the steamer.


Lucien Cannon: I have no friends.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am sorry to hear that.	I
Examiners of masters and mates, $16,500.


Joseph Read: Will the minister tell us how that $16,500 is to be expended? Do the examiners get a fixed salary, or do they receive fees from the masters and mates?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The examiners get a fixed salary for the duties they perform.
Expenses of schools of navigation, $8,000.


Ernest Lapointe: Where are those
schools located?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: At St. John, N.B., Halifax, North Sydney, Yarmouth, and in the winter months they are at Quebec and Kingston.


Lucien Cannon: Who looks after those
schools?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We have no superintendent over all the schools, but we have an instructor at each one of those stations. For the city of Quebec, it is Captain P. L. Lachance.


Lucien Cannon: What is his salary?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Fifty dollars a
month.


Lucien Cannon: Does he work all the year round?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No, only during the winter months.
Removal of obstructions in navigable waters, $5,000.


Samuel William Jacobs: I notice there is a distinct decrease in this item from the appropriation of 1917. Does the minister expect fewer obstructions in 1918 than in 1917?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I do not know that I do, but the department considers the
amount we are asking here will be sufficient for our needs, and we are trying to keep all the items of expenditure down to the minimum.
Mr. PARENT. Are there any particular rivers affected by this item?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No, there is not any particular river or spot. The item covers work wherever navigation may be obstructed in any way. This vote is to remove the obstruction.


Mr.   D@: Was the amount of $20,000 for 1917-1918 all spent?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No.
Inspection of live stock shipments, $3,000.


Lucien Cannon: What is this item for?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It is for live stock inspectors at the port of Montreal, Mr. Delorme, and Mr. O'Grady. Their business is to see that any live stock going aboard the steamers are properly taken care of and the necessary provision made for them.


Lucien Cannon: What are their salaries?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Mr. Delorme, $1,200; Mr. O'Grady, $1,050; miscellaneous, $750; making a total of $3,000.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Where does the live stock go to?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: To England-hun-dieds and thousands of horses.


Lucien Cannon: Is there a station pf this kind at Quebec?
Mr. BALLANTYNE. That is not in my department; that belongs to the Minister of Agriculture.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Surely the hundreds and thousands of horses would be inspected by the British Remount Department, or the Imperial Munitions Board, or whatever department it may be which purchases these horses.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We do not inspect the horses. I would not want to convey to the hon. member the impression that we do. The business of these inspectors is to see that there are proper stalls or accommodation for horses or any other live stock that may be put on board the steamers.


Lucien Cannon: The item reads, "Inspection of livestock shipments.''


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It might have been *worded a little differently.

To continue subsidy for wrecking- plants- Quebec, Maritime Provinces and! British Columbia, $35,000.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: How much is given to Quebec and to whom?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The vote is to pay the following subsidies: British Columbia Salvage Company, Victoria, $10,000; Quebec Salvage and Wrecking Company, Levis, $25,000; in all, $35,000.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: What service does the department get for the subsidy of $25,000?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: That is one of the matters of emergency for which the department has to provide. While I am happy to state that the St. Lawrence route below the port of Quebec, and, in fact, the whole St. Lawrence route has, practically speaking, been free from accidents, at the same time it would be unwise in the interest of navigation for the department not to. have a powerful and efficient plant ready in case an expensive steamer might come to grief.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I understand that at one time the steamer Lord Strathcona was kept constantly under steam and the Davie Company received a subsidy for this service. Is there now a boat kept under steam ready to sail at any moment?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Lord Strathcona is always kept under steam.


Lucien Cannon: Is the Government taking over the plant that used to belong to the Davie .Company?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No, the Government have not taken over the steamer; we are merely granting the subsidy.


Lucien Cannon: I mean the wrecking plant.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Government have not taken over the wrecking plant. The name of the company that operates it is the Quebec Salvage and Wrecking Company.


Rodolphe Lemieux: While I do not object to the maintenance of the wrecking plant at Levis, and while I see the necessity of it for the river St. Lawrence proper, I think it would be wise, at no distant date, for the department to establish a wrecking plant lower down the river St. Lawrence. If a wreck takes place in the gulf of St. Lawrence between Newfoundland and, say, Anticosti, or between Anticosti and Magdalen island and the bay of Gaspe, I do not wish to be parochial, but it seems to me it is too far away to send to Levis for a wrecking plant in order to meet such a contingency.

I know the department has had under consideration the erection of a wrecking plant lower down the river St. Lawrence. If the minister contemplates the erection of a plant there I might, perhaps, give him some of my own ideas aibout that. I consider the bay of Gaspe would toe the proper point at vhich to have that wrecking plant.


Samuel William Jacobs: I suppose the hon. member is speaking now as the member for Gaspe.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The department have not under consideration at the present time the establishment of a wrecking plant toelo-w the port of Quelbec, but I shall toe glad to give the matter consideration.
Mr. TOLMIEt- Has any reduction been made in the subsidy to the British Columbia company?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The British Columbia appropriation remains the same.


William Stevens Fielding: Many serious wrecks
occur, I 'believe, on the Newfoundland coast. To- have ready access to these, even my hon. friend's port of Gaspe would hardly be suitable. I do not want to suggest any port in my own 'constituency, 'because that would look like parochialism-, but I would suggest in all seriousness that a plant established- at Sydney or at North Sydney would be a better location for the class of wreck with which the department has to deal. It i-s worth considering at all events-, in the future planning of these arrangements-.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I shall toe very glad to take -into consideration the suggestions made toy my hon. friends.


Robert Laird Borden: I beg to move
that the Committee rise, report progress, and ask leave to s-it again this day.
Motion 'agreed to; progress reported.



[Stage Direction]
The Hous£ again- in- Committee on Bill No. 3, to- confer the electoral franchise upon women, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
On section 1-Women to toe entitled to vote.
Robert Laird Borden: I have given
consideration to some of the suggestions which were made with regard to the terms o-f this Bill, and I now propose the following amendment:
That subclauses (c) and (d) of the first subsection of section 1 be struck out and the following be substituted therefor as subclause (c) :

Possesses the qualifications which would entitle a male person to vote at a Dominion Election in the province in which said female person seeks to vote. Provided that a married woman or an unmarried daughter living with her father or mother shall be deemed to have any necessary qualification as to property or income if the husband or either of the parents is so qualified.
The reason for that amendment is that it brings the qualification for a woman for the electoral franchise more nearly in line with that which is necessary for a man. As the clause was originally drafted, it gave women a somewhat wider franchise than men.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Has the Bill been reprinted?


Robert Laird Borden: No, that is the reason I am moving these amendments now. The object of the subsection in the first place, is to provide that the qualification of women shall be the same as that which would entitle a male person to vote at a Dominion election in the province in which the woman seeks to vote, but inasmuch as that provision, if unaccompanied by any qualification, would cut out a very large number of women from the right to vote, where that right is based upon property or income, therefore the clause goes on to provide:
That a married woman or an unmarried daughter living with her father or mother shall be deemed to have any necessary qualification as to property or income If the husband or either of the parents is so qualified.
That amendment removes the difficulty which was suggested as to the term of residence in the Bill as originally drafted. It is proper that hon. members should have time to consider the amendment, so I will ask that it stand. I also beg to move:
That subclause (c) of the second subsection of section 1 be amended by striking out the words ''being a married woman and previously an alien," in first line thereof, and by substituting the word "parent" for the word "father," in the third line thereof, and by inserting after the word "constituency," in the ninth line thereof, the words "while he is so engaged in such preparation or revision. '
The clause will then read:
If she has become a British subject by marriage or by the naturalization as a British subject of her parent while she was a minor and in either case has done nothing (other than in the second case by marriage) to forfeit or lose her status as a British subject, and obtains and presents to the official in charge of the preparation or revision of the voters' lists of the said constituency, while he is so engaged in such preparation or revision, a certificate under the signature of a judge,-
And so on. I also give notice that I will move that the second section be amended by adding thereto the following at the end thereof:
And in each of the said Acts the expression "person" or "male person" or any similar expression, shall include a female person, unless a different meaning is required by the context, or by the terms of this Act.
As far as I can judge, these amendments will cover such of the objections as were urged on a previous occasion, in so far as seems desirable to give effect to any suggestion so made.


Rodolphe Lemieux: When will these amendments come up for consideration?


Robert Laird Borden: Just as soon as we can take them up.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Will the Bill be reprinted for to-morrow?


Robert Laird Borden: I hope so.


Jacques Bureau: Do I understand the principle of the Bill will be discussed in Committee of the Whole, when it is taken up again?


Robert Laird Borden: The principle of a Bill is always discussed on the second reading.


Jacques Bureau: I understood that we passed over the Bill rather lightly on the second reading, because an understanding had been reached between the leader of the Opposition and the Prime Minister that there might be fuller discussion either in Committee of the Whole or on the third reading. The object was to give members more time to go into details of the Bill, and study it more closely.


Robert Laird Borden: The principle of a Bill is one thing and the details another. I do not recall any understanding that the principle was to be discussed in committee. It is not usual to discuss the principle of a Bill in committee. The principle is discussed on the second reading and the details are discussed in committee, but if my hon. friend desires to relieve his mind of any view as to the principle of the Bill, perhaps we might waive the rules for the time being and let him have the opportunity.


Jacques Bureau: I do not want any favour in that regard, but I understood at the time that we suspended the discussion on the second reading with 'the distinct understanding that there would be a general discussion in Committee of the Whole.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not recall it; it may be so.


Jacques Bureau: On page 98 of Hansard I find:
Sir Robert Borden: In order to make the matter perfectly clear, permit me to say that we are merely carrying out in this respect, the same principles with regard to women which now prevail in regard to men.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier:	I do not intend to
discuss the principle of the Bill on the present occasion, but will reserve any remarks I may have to make on that subject.
I told some bon. gentlemen who were inquiring about the matter that my understanding was that those who had any remarks to make on the principle of the Bill would be given, an opportunity to make them when the Bill came up in Committee of the Whole, the same as on, a second reading.


Robert Laird Borden: I would not
understand that the observation to which my bon. friend has called attention would constitute any such understanding as he suggests, but, as I said before, I have no desire to be strict in the enforcement of the rules. It would be undesirable, I think, to have a protracted discussion in committee on the principle of the Bill, when the principle should be discussed on the second reading, if at all.


Rodolphe Lemieux: On page 97 of Hansard I find:
Sir Wilfrid Laurier: The House is very thin at the moment, and I do not purpose to discuss the principle of the Bill at this stage, as I understand several members wish to speak on it. I suggest that we give the Bill its second reading and go into Committee upon it, when the information I desire can better be given than across the floor of the House.
Of course I understand the hon. minister would not prevent any one discussing the principle of the Bill, because he tacitly agreed that the principle of the Bill would be discussed in committee.


Robert Laird Borden: I will not admit that I tacitly agreed to anything. However, I do not think we will have any trouble.


Mr. FORTIER:: I understood the other day that this Bill would come before the committee again and be examined on its merits. If the minister is ready to hear discussion on the subject at once I am prepared to go on. Otherwise, I would have to wait until a future time, when the matter will come up for discussion. I may say I am opposed to the Bill.


Robert Laird Borden: I think we had better go out of committee now, without prejudice to any rights my hon. friend had.
Progress reported.



[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Boivirr' in the Chair. -
Ocean and River Service-Unforeseen expenses, $5,000.
Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: While we are asking for a vote of $5,000, I wish to inform hon. gentlemen that the expenditure up to February 28, 1918, only amounted to $64.05, but we thought it wise to ask for a vote of $5,000, although I do not think we will spend any more next year than we did last year.
Amount required for two boilers for Canadian Government Steamer Montcalm, $60,000.


Lucien Cannon: Is it the minister's intention to call for tenders?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It is the intention of the department to put in a similar make of boilers-, BaibcoCk & Wilcox, if we can get it at a reasonable sum. If we are unable to do-so we will call for public tender.


Lucien Cannon: I understand the intention of the department at present is not to call for tenders.
Amount required for two steamers for buoy service in Maritime provinces, $300,000.


Mr. WIGMORE:: Is it- the intention
of the department to purchase two new steamers to replace two that are at the present time in use or is it intended to add two new steamers to the fleet?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The intention is to add two new steamers. Unfortunately the department lost several boats; the Mont-magny was one 'and there was also the unfortunate foundering of the steamer Simcoe. The intention is to -build two new steamers especially designed for carrying buoys and for the service which 'they may he called upon 'to perform.


Rodolphe Lemieux: My hon. friend has referred to the Simcoe. That was a very sad accident. Has an investigation disclosed anything as to the cause of that accident?


Mir. PEDLOW:: Was the steamer Simcoe insured, and if so, for how much? I would like also to ask if the department has investigated the possibility of salvaging that boat?
iM.r. BALLANTYNE:	The Government
carry their own insurance. This steamer

was not covered by insurance in any outside company. We have not been able to salvage the steamer although we have endeavoured to do so.
Mr. LEM'IEUX:	Will the minister give
me the information about 'the Simcoe?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There was no formal investigation held, but a very thorough inquiry was made by the department.
I regret to inform t'he commSttee that we have no information that would enable us to tell what was the cause of the loss.


Rodolphe Lemieux: How many people
perished?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I aim sorry I have
not the exact number, hut I think it was 42.


Lucien Cannon: Are the ships going to be built in Canada?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Certainly; it is the
policy of the Canadian Government to have everything built in Canada.
[Mr. CANNON: Has the construction of these ships started?
'Mr. BALLANTYNE:	No, not yet; we
would not care to do that without the approval of hon. members and the House generally.


Joseph Read: Is there any vote
for new buoys?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: This particular
vote we are asking for is not for buoys. It is for two new 'steamers to he used in placing buoys.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Where are the steamers going to he built?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I could not answer the hon. member because we will have to call for tenders according to the specifications of the department and whoever gives us- the lowest hid and. can turn out the best steamer will be awarded the contract.


Lucien Cannon: Is it the intention of the Government to have shipbuilding plants of their own?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The matter has not been considered, 'by the Government, but if they ask the advice of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, I may say that I will certainly he against it.
Public Works-Chargeable to capital (Marine Department)-River St. Lawrence ship ohatmel, $478,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Would my hon. friend
give an outline of the work to be done this
summer on the ship channel in the river St. Lawrence, and state what depth of channel they have attained and what remains to be done.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The river St. Lawrence ship channel extends from the city of Montreal to what is known as the "Traverse," 60 miles 'below Quebec. The entire length of the channel is 220 miles. With the exception of 1.74 miles at cap a la Roche and St. Augustine bar, there is a 30-foot channel from Montreal to the sea. At cap a la Roche and St. Augustine bar advantage is taken of the rise in tide. At cap a la Roche there is a rise in tide of from 4 to 6 feet and at St. Augustin bar of approximately 13 feet. The narrowest point in the channel is at St. Croix bar. At this point the width is 250 feet. The width of the channel to the rock cut at cap a la Roche is 300 feet, which is being widened to 550 feet. The channel through lake St. Peter is 450 feet wide at the straight parts and from 600 to 800 feet on the curve. Work on the 35-foot channel has been completed over a distance of 39.90 miles. There remains yet to 'be dredged to a depth of 35 feet, 50.48 miles.


Rodolphe Lemieux: How many dredges are there under the control of the department engaged on the work in connection with this, ship channel?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Owing to the financial situation we are curtailing very much the expenditure on the work to be done on the St. Lawrence ship channel this coming yeaT. We only have four elevator dredges with tugs and two self-propelling steel elevator dredges with tugs, six in all. Hon. gentlemen will notice that there is a decrease, as compared with last year, of $194,000.
Mr. LEM'IEUX:	Have there 'been any
accidents in the channel during the last fiscal year?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am happy to say there have been only minor accidents^- nothing of a grave character.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Will my hon. friend
induce the insurance people to reduce their rates now that the ship channel in the river St. Lawrence is in such good order and as there are only minor accidents? Unfortunately, a few bad accidents some years ago gave Lloyds a pretext to raise their rates abnormally. I think my hon. friend, who is au fait with the navigation of the St. Lawrence, who has been vice president of the harbour commission and was con-

sequently in touch with all the oceanic interests, might endeavour to make his influence felt with that famous insurance concern and see that the rates between Great Britain and Canada under ordinary conditions are lowered. There is no reason why the river St. Lawrence should not be navigated as well as the ocean itself, with the remarkable improvement which we have witnessed in the ship channel in the last twenty years. I know that I am voicing the sentiments not only of the business community in Montreal, but of all Canada. It is a big 'question which affects not only the merchants and shippers in Montreal, but the farmers in itbe West. I hope that my hon. friend, business man as he is, will see to it that we get from Lloyds proper rates for our ocean tonnage.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I can, sympathize with the hon. member's views, regarding the high rates of insurance on the St. Lawrence route. It is a matter that I gave a great deal of thought and attention to in the six years that I was one of the harbour commissioners of the port of Montreal. It is a very difficult problem, as the hon. member has stated. At the first opportune time, I certainly will take it up with the Lloyds people, because I do not know of any route that is safer, either by night or day, than the St. Lawrence ship channel from Montreal to the sea. It is thoroughly well buoyed and splendidly lighted, and the depth of the channel is now 30 feet to the sea, and in some parts 35 feet.


Rodolphe Lemieux: And the curves have been reduced?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes. I quite agree with the hon. member that we should have lower rates of insurance, and I shall look into the matter. I do not say that I shall accomplish it, but I will make the attempt to do so. '


Lucien Cannon: Is the dredging work done by tender?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No, the dredging of the St. Lawrence ship channel for many years has been done by the department's own dredges and its own staff, and that is still the policy.


Mr. PARENT:: Wlhere will the dredging be done next summer, at Montreal or Quebec?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The principal dredging will be done at cap a la Roche, and at St. Augustin bar, also in the north channel.


Lucien Cannon: Does this item cover the dredging work in the St. Charles river?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am very happy to say that it does not. That work comes under the Public Works Department.


Georges Henri Boivin: Shall this item carry? Carried.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Does this item also cover the lighting of the ship canal?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Simply the dredging.


Mr. ARCHAMBAULT:: What was the amount expended last year for dredging?


Georges Henri Boivin: I beg to call the hon. member's attention to the fact that the item on dredging has been carried. If hon. gentlemen wish to ask questions, they must not wait until after the item has been declared carried.


Joseph Archambault: I believe I rose before the item was carried.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: If the Chairman will allow me, I will give my hon. friend the information. Last year the amount expended was $672,000.
To provide for construction and completion of dredging plant for St. Lawrence River from Montreal to Father Point, $163,900.


Lucien Cannon: Would the minister explain the difference between the item we have just voted for the St. Lawrence River ship channel and the present item for dredging plant?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I will be very glad to give the hon. member the information he seeks. The item we have just passed is for dredging the St. Lawrence ship channel. The vote we are now asking is for the maintenance of the Sorel shipyard.


Lucien Cannon: What is included in the item we voted for dredging the St. Lawrence? Does it include salaries paid to the employees, coal burned, and the expenses of the work itself?
-Mr. BALLANTYNE: Yes, quite so.


Lucien Cannon: Where is the dredging plant to be built? Will it be purchased in England, or built in Canada, and if so, where?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The vote that the Committee is considering at the present time is for the maintenance of the shipyard at Sorel. The amount appropriated for maintenance is $53,900, for improvement of the shipyard, $10,000; and there is also an amount tc complete a dredge that the

Canadian Vickers Company are building that will amount to $100,000, making a grand total of $163,900.


Lucien Cannon: I notice that the item reads " for construction and completion."


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: "Of dredging plant."


Lucien Cannon: Yes. Completion implies that the work is already started.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The word " completion " refers to the dredge that the Canadian Vickers Company have under construction at the present time for the department, and which is not finished.


Lucien Cannon: Was any money voted last year for the construction of this dredge?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Lucien Cannon: And the amount was not sufficient?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No.
Mr. CANNON. How much was spent?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It appears that
there was $150,000 voted for this dredge last year, but the work was suspended on account of the war, owing to the yard being fully occupied in building vessels more urgently required. Therefore, we are asking now for a revote of $100,000.


Lucien Cannon: A revote? I understand that Parliament has already voted $150,000 for the construction of this dredge. Tenders were called for, I suppose?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Lucien Cannon: And the contract awarded to the Canadian Vickers?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Lucien Cannon: And the work was suspended. If I understood the minister rightly, this is not new money that we are voting. We are voting an old item for the second time?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: According to the
rules of Parliament, when money is voted and is not expended for the purpose it was voted for, it is necessary to come before Parliament again for a vote.


Lucien Cannon: "What I want to know is whether that $150,000 has been spent?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No, it has not.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: How much of that money has been spent on the dredge? Was a contract executed when the dredge was ordered, and has the price been changed since that time?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Tenders were called for by my predecessor, and the contract was awarded on the 27th October, 1914. The total amount of the contract price was $833,300. There was voted in 1915-16 $500,000; in 1916-17, $325,000; in 1917-18, $150,000, and we are asking this year for $100,000.


Lucien Cannon: The minister explained at first that the contract had been awarded but that the work had been suspended on account of the war?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Lucien Cannon: In view of the information which the minister has just given us, how can the work have been suspended when nearly $600,000 of public money has been expended on this dredge? What was the money expended for?


Robert Hamilton Butts: Perhaps the hon. gentleman is afraid that this money is not going to be spent in his province.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There has been a certain amount of work done on this dredge, otherwise the votes would not have been passed at each session of Parliament. It is a fact, however, that the work has been suspended. I am told this was in the summer of 1915.


Mr. EULER:: Is the amount asked for intended for permanent work?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The vote we are now asking hon. gentlemen to pass is for permanent work. If it is continued until it is finally completed we will require this vote of $100,000, but it is for permanent work on a new dredge.


William Daum Euler: The Department of Public Works has decided not to make any expenditures in a capital way unless they are absolutely necessary, because of war conditions. Is not the same policy to be adopted by the Department of Marine and Fisheries?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The hon. member will understand that this contract was awarded to the Vickers Company in 1914. It is a valid contract, and it is obligatory on the part of the Government to carry it out. By agreement between the Vickers Company and the Government, the work has been temporarily set aside since the summer of 1915, but it is quite probable that during the coming summer, and probably before then, the Vickers Company may be in a position to complete the dredge.



They cannot do so unless we secure this vote of $100,000.


William Daum Euler: Then this is a case of a contract awarded before the war began?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Lucien Cannon: The contract was awarded in October, 1914, which was after the war had broken out.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Cannon) is quite correct. The war broke out, as we all unfortunately know, in August, 1914, and the contract was made in October of that year.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Including the vote asked for in these estimates, the total amount required to pay for this contract is over $1,000,000. Is that on account of the enhanced value of material entering into construction, or do you intend to pay more than the contract price for the dredge, or does any part of the sum form a revote?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I have endeavoured to make it clear that my predecessor, in October, 1914, after calling for public tenders, awarded the contract for the building of this new dredge to the Vickers Company of Montreal. There have been sums of money spent on the erection of this dredge from time to time since then, but the work has been set aside, and I am now asking for a vote of $100,000 to complete the dredge.
Mr. JOS. READ: Then the dredge has been partly built and you are going on with the work?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Then, including the
amount asked for in this estimate, Parliament will have voted for this work over one million dollars?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes, but that amount has not been spent.


Lucien Cannon: As regards the balance of the item, where is the money to be spent, and in what manner?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The maintenance of the shipyard at Sorel will amount to $53,900, and improvements on the shipyard at Sorel $10,000.


Mr. VERVILLE:: It has been rumoured for some time that the shipyard at Sorel was to be closed1. Is there any foundation for this rumour?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: As far as I know it is the intention of the Government to continue the Sorel shipyards, but not on as large a scale as in the past.
[Mr. Ballantyne.l


Rodolphe Lemieux: 
Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Government
has expropriated the McCarthy property and the matter is now in the bands of the Exchequer Court.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What offer has been
made by the department to the McCarthy
estate?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I ami not personally aware that any offer has been made. Pos-.sibly my predecessor may have made one, but .if so, I have no record of it here, I aim sorry to say.


Mr. McCREA:: We do not yet appear to have obtained all the information that we are entitled to on this item as yet. If I understand the matter aright, a contract was let in 1914 for the building of a dredge, the .contract price being $833,000. We are told that in one year $500,000 was voted, the next year $325,000, last year $150,000, and this year we are asked to vote $150,000. Were all those amounts actually paid, or was any part of them paid? In other words, when the dredge is completed and- paid for, is it going to cost the country $833,000 or more than that?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: When the dredge is finally completed, the contract price will oe $833,700. All of the moneys that have been voted in the various years have not been spent.
Amount required for converting six ship
channel tugs for salt water service, $50,000.
*


Lucien Cannon: Where aie those tugs at the present time?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: At the present time they are at Sorel, and as there is a great demand for tugs to be converted into seagoing ships, and as the British Government are liable to ask for them at any time, the department is asking for this appropria-

tion to convert those six channel tugs for salt water service. At the present time, they are equipped only for fresh water service.


Lucien Cannon: Are those tugs to be replaced after they are sent down for salt water service ?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It is not the intention of the department to replace those tugs providing they are used for salt water service.


Lucien Cannon: If those tugs are not to be replaced, their usefulness must surely not be very great.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I assure the hon. member their usefulness is just as great as it has ever been, but owing to the curtailment of the expenditure on the St. Lawrence ship channel, as the hon. member will have noted by the appropriation, we are not requiring for dredging work on the St. Lawrence ship channel as many dredges as we formerly did. We have, therefore, those six tugs that are idle, and we think it is good policy to have them converted for service on salt water.


Joseph Read: The object of the minister is to put condensers in them?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.
Lighthouse and coast service-agencies, rents and contingencies, $178,0-00.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Will the minister explain the increase?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The increase is due principally to salaries. As hon. gentlemen know, the cost of living has advanced so very much, and we find it necessary to increase the salaries.


Lucien Cannon: Who is the agent at Quebec at the present time?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Mr. Beland.


Lucien Cannon: Is his salary to be increased, and, if so, to what extent?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Mr. Beland's salary is to be increased $100. At the present time he is receiving $3,100. If he gets this increase of $100, he will reach the maximum salary of $3,200.
Salaries and allowances to lightkeepers, $485,000.


Ernest Lapointe: Will the lightkeepers come under the provisions of the new Civil Service Act with regard to the Outside Service?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.
24i


Ernest Lapointe: I hope the minister will extend to the lightkeepers the policy which he has just enunciated with regard to marine agents and employees in the marine agencies. I believe there is no class of public servants who are so much underpaid as the lightkeepers. They are faithful servants, their duties are very important, they are subject to many hardships, and I believe that since 1870 they have not received an increase of salary. In fact many of them have to-day a smaller salary than .their predecessors had previous to 1870. The cost of living has increased, especially during the last few years. Their w-ork is harder than it was. 'The season of work has been extended; in fact, I believe this winter they had to work until the 23rd of January. Many of them have to employ help. I know the case of one lightkeeper who has a salary of $1,400. That seems to be a good salary, but the regulations of the department compel him to employ two servants whom he has- to pay and feed, and in the end those men are much better off than he is. I consider that the salaries of the lightkeepers ought to be increased before the provisions of the new Act come into force.


Mr. G. B. NICHOLSON:: I wish to support what the hon. gentleman has just said with regard to the salaries of lighthouse keepers, and I would urge the minister to apply the increase also to the lighthouse keepers on the upper lakes.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I am glad to hear the minister say that the lighthouse keepers will come under the Civil Service Commission in future. I would suggest, however, that there are cases where the Civil Service Commission might take into- consideration special circumstances. I would like to cite one or two cases. In the gulf of the St. Lawrence -there is a place called Bird's Rock, one of the Magdalen- islands, a celebrated place, and a very interesting spot to visit. There is another place called Bryon island, which was the first land sighted by Jacques Cartier when he came to Canada. There are lighthouses on both these islands. Bird's rock is but a rock, but Bryon island is an island. The lighthouse keeper who is appointed at any of these places goes into exile practically for life, except that after a certain number of years he applies for superannuation, which is granted to him; but speaking generally, they take their families with them and settle there for life. I know the lighthouse keeper at Bird's rock. He took his family with him to the Rock, and there is a sad story con-

neoted with that lighthouse, as the minister knows. In .a case of that kind, where the lighthouse keeper's son has grown up to the business, has learnt telegraphy and flag signalling and all the other work connected with keeping the lighthouse, it seems to me the department should recommend to the Civil Service Commission, other things being equal, that the eldest son should succeed his father. I also know the lighthouse keeper on Bryon island. He has been exiled there now for fifteen years. There was a new lighthouse 'built at that time at the request of the navigators and of the steamship companies, and this man was appointed at my suggestion. His name is Procul Chevrier. He is an excellent and faithful servant of His Majesty, and has kept the lighthouse admirably. Now that he is full of years he resigns, and it is his desire that his eldest son should succeed him. The son has been brought up to the work of the lighthouse in that isolated spot in the gulf ' of the St. Lawrence, and I would urge the minister to recommend the Civil Service Commission, other things being equal, to give this man's son the preference in appointing a new lighthouse keeper there. It seems to me that in special circumstances such as these the department might well intervene and make a recommendation to the Civil Service Commission.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: 
Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The suggestions of my hon. friends for a suitable increase in salary for the lighthouse keepers and the keepers of light .ships fall on very sympathetic ears. I have under consideration at the present time, subject to the approval of this Hous-e, an increase of salary for the lighthouse keepers and for the keepers of lightships. I am sorry that the main estimates do not provide for this increase, but I intend to put in the supplementary estimates an item of $50,000 for this purpose, and I am very glad, indeed, to know that hon. gentlemen will approve the item when it comes up. There is no question but that the salaries of the lighthouse keepers, are inadequate when we take into consideration the high cost of living. This came under my notice some little time ago, and I intended to express myself in this way even if hon. gentlemen had not brought the matter to my .attention. In regard to a pension or superannuation for the lighthouse keepers, I would be very glad to give the matter consideration.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Will the hon. minister consider the suggestion I made?	[DOT]


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am sorry I overlooked that. Hon. gentlemen will understand that ministers have no longer any authority to make appointments, or even to make suggestions, but the deputy ministers have, and I am sure my deputy, vi'ho is present to-night, will see that the name of this man is placed before the Civil Service Commission.
Mr. GAUVREAU. Is it well understood that there will be no reduction of the crews of ships?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I have no intention ot reducing the crews of ships.
Administration of pilotage, and maintenance and repairs to Steamer Eureka, $56,300.


Lucien Cannon: I wish to call attention of the hon. minister to the rather exceptional situation of the apprenticed pilots in Montreal. I do not know if my information is accurate, and if it is not I wish the minister would correct me, but I understand that in Montreal no examinations have been held for the last nine years. Young men have been apprenticed for years. They are fully competent, but, on account of these examinations not being held, they cannot beqome pilots and cannot receive the salary of pilots, and these young men are in the position of either ceasing to study or work as pilots, or else practically starve. The number of full-fledged pilots in Montreal, I understand, varies between sixty and seventy. Some of them are very old and ought to be replaced, and I think it would be in the public interest if the minister would give orders for the holding of examinations immediately, so that the young men who would be successful in examinations could perform their duties as pilots during the course of the coming summer. I understand that last year the ships were so numerous on the St. Lawrence river between Montreal and the lower St. Lawrence that the number of pilots was not sufficient to take the ships from, Montreal to Quebec, and that men- who were not competent, who had not the proper knowledge of the channel or of the river, were put in charge. All this information, as I say, has been given to me from reliable sources, and if my information is not accurate, I wish to be corrected toy the minister. I would toe very glad if the minister would give us a declaration as to whether or not examinations will be held this year, so as to improve the lot of these young apprentices in Montreal.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The examinations
of apprenticed pilots do not take place less there is. a vacancy on the permanent staff of pilots, commonly known as branch pilots, and while it may Ibe regrettable, as far as the young and enthusiastic apprentices are concerned, that the branch pnote live to too old an age, or live to an age that appears old and are still able to perform their duties in an efficient way, I can quite appreciate their position. I will admit there are a number of apprenticed pilots in Montreal waiting to be examined, and to pass their examinations for promotion to
branch pilots. The remainder of the statement of the hon. gentleman in regard to inexperienced pilots being put on the Toute, is, I am sorry to say, inaccurate. No one but thoroughly experienced (branch pilots are allowed to take charge of any ships, and there was certainly a* sufficient numlber of qualified licensed pilots to take charge of all the ships that navigated the St. Lawrence from, Montreal to Quebec last year.


Mr.   D@: Is there a sufficient number now?


Lucien Cannon: What is the number of
branch pilots operating between Montreal and Quebec??


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: About 50. I can
give you the names.


Lucien Cannon: I do not want the names. Is there any regulation as to the number of pilots that should :be on the list? Is there a maximum fixed1?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Fifty licensed branch pilots are considered a sufficient number to take care of the pilotage system.


Lucien Cannon: According to the law, would the minister have authority to increase the number, if he wished to do so?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Oh, yes, I have the necessary authority.


Joseph Read: I want to draw the attention of the minister to a fact connected with some of these old men who are in positions similar to the position of the pilots of Montreal. A number of men who have been doing this work do not want the young men to come up at all, and absolutely refuse to teach them the trade, and if there are young men in connection with the Montreal pilotage who are old enough and competent enough to obtain a license, I do not see why there should be any limitation. How are they limited? Is it by regulation of the pilot commission or by the pilots themselves, or is there a statutory limit?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Montreal pilotage system is under the direct control of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, and there is a departmental regulation limiting the number of pilots to fifty, but if I found that more pilots were required than that number I certainly would see that the examination of the apprenticed pilots took place, and any vacancies that occurred would be promptly filled. The hon. member who has asked the question being a sea-faring man will understand that there is a very rigid five-year course for the appren-

ticed pilots, and the apprenticed pilots are taking that course right along. A few of them have completed the term of their apprenticeship, and are simply waiting to be examined. There is no use holding the examination of the apprentice pilots unless vacancies occur.


Joseph Read: There is a sufficient number?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Quite sufficient.


Georges Parent: Following the investigation that took place at Halifax after the disaster that happened there, I remember seeing in the papers that the scope of the investigation would be extended, so that it would cover the pilotage authority in Quebec and the pilotage authority in Montreal. I am not sure if this investigation has been held in the different places. I would like to find out whether it is the intention of the department to have a change in the administration of the pilotage authority in Quebec?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The pilotage systems at Montreal and Quebec are already under the Minister of Marine and Fisheries. A commission was appointed by my predecessor some years ago and an investigation was held into the pilotage systems of both Montreal and Quebec. All the recommendations, except in a few minor cases, were put into effect by my predecessor, Hon. Mr. Hazen. Since I have been appointed minister a commission has been appointed, composed of Mr. Robb, secretary of the shipping federation of Montreal, Captain Bales, who was port warden, and Captain- Harrison, of the Furness-Withy Company, Halifax; and they held a most thorough and rigid investigation into the pilotage system of the port of Halifax. The report has been completed and I hope to lay it on the table of the House shortly. The recommendation that this commission made was that the Minister of Marine and Fisheries should abolish the pilotage commission of the port of Halifax, and should take the pilotage system under his control in the same way that the pilotage systems of Montreal and Quebec have been taken under the control of the minister. The necessary authority has been taken, the pilotage system of the port of Halifax is now under my control as minister, and Captain Lindsay has been appointed superintendent of pilots. Captain Lindsay is a sea-faring man holding a master mariner's certificate and has been connected with the Department of Marine and Fisheries for some years.

The commission have also visited and looked into the pilotage systems of Sydney, Louisburg, St. John, and the Miramichi. They have not as yet rendered their report, but no doubt they will do so in due course. They will then proceed to the Pacific coast and investigate the pilotage systems of Victoria, Vancouver, New Westminster and Nanaimo. I hone that when the commission have finished their investigation of these important sea ports the department will be able to put the pilotage system on a much more satisfactory basis than prevails at the present time under various local pilotage commissions.


Lucien Cannon: Were the Halifax pilots under the authority or supervision of the minister?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: In an indirect way, but the local pilotage commission exercised very great authority. Now that the local, pilotage system has been abolished, as minister I am assuming the responsibility and control of the pilotage system there.


Lucien Cannon: Since the minister has taken control, have any measures been taken against the pilots who were held responsible for the terrible disaster which occurred in the harbour at Halifax?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Since the terrible Halifax catastrophe a court of inquiry was instituted by the Department of Marine and Fisheries. That court rendered its judgment, and I understand that all those who were held by this court of inquiry to be in any way blameable for the catastrophe are being dealt with at the present time before the court.


Lucien Cannon: I read in the papers at the time the investigation was held that some people thought that the calamity might have been avoided if the pilot on the Mont Blanc had been able to speak with the crew on board the ship. I understand that the ship is a French ship, that the crew was French, that the pilot was English, that he could not speak any other language than English, and that there was therefore absolutely no possibility of communication between the captain and pilot of the ship as to the direction of the ship. I do not know if these are the facts, but if they are I might suggest that the minister send down to Halifax some French-speaking pilots who would take charge of French ships, in the hope that catastrophies like that might be avoided in the future.


Robert Hamilton Butts: I come from a sea-faring country, and I know a little bit about it.. If you send down from the St. Lawrence river French-speaking pilots to navigate the waters of Nova Scotia or the gulf of St. Lawrence, or any other place along the Nova Scotia coast, it would be suicidal-it would be out of the question altogether. You men from the St. Lawrence do not know anything about Atlantic navigation; you do not know anything about the game of seamanship. I am not saying this in a carping or critical spirit, but simply by way of suggestion, but I wish that you would withhold your hand from anything affecting Sydney or its pilotage system until you can get men accustomed to conditions in Sydney harbour to investigate the system that has prevailed there. Perhaps 1 am wrong in criticising. You may have used your very best judgment, but you have never steered a boat against a sou' west wind in Halifax harbour like I have done.
I know some little thing about navigation in Sydney harbour and the Cape Breton coast, and I am giving it to you now in the very best spirit and asking 'you to take the advice of some of the Cape Breton mariners as to how they would navigate that coast before you lay sacriligious hands upon the pilotage system there.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I can assure the hon. member (Mr. Butts) that every consideration will be given to the suggestion which he hais made. One who has had the experience that he has informed us he has had, is at all times worth listening to, and everything that he has stated will be given very careful consideration. In answer to the suggestion of the hon. member (Mr. Cannon) about French pilots at Halifax, I am not in a position to know whether there are any there or not. But we all know, especially we of the English-speaking race, that the French people ispeak one language equally as well as the other, and if there are any qualified French Canadian pilots down there, and I can find them, 1 certainly shall see that they are sent.
Maintenance and repairs to wharves, $10,000.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Where are these repairs to be made to wharves, because I see on another page of the estimates, under the heading of " Public Works Chargeable to Income," a great many appropriations made for different wharves and' (breakwaters, and repairs to wharves and breakwaters, in the different provinces.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The vote that we aTe asking hon. members to approve of is for
small repairs that are required from time to time for the maintenance of public wharves that are under the control of the Department of Marine. These small repairs are generally around $50 or so.
To provide for breaking ice in Thunder Bay and Lake Superior and other points deemed advisable for the good of navigation, $40,000.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Does this item cover the breaking of ice in the St. Lawrence river?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: What are the " other points deemed advisable for the good of navigation?"


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: This vote is asked particularly for Thunder bay. There is an area of 27 miles of ice which has to be broken up every spring and that will explain why the vote is as large as $40,000. If there are any other nearby points that require the services of an icebreaker this vote will apply to them. That is what we mean by " other points "-points adjacent or close to Thunder bay.


Frank S. Cahill: Who does the ice breaking?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Canadian Towing and Wrecking Company.
To provide for telephones at different points throughout the Dominion in connection with aids to navigation, $500.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Is that in connection with the ship channel? I understand there was a telephone system between Montreal, Quebec, and, perhaps, points lower down the St. Lawrence.
Mr. BALLANTYNE.: This vote is asked in case there may be some isolated station where we would need to install a telephone. As a matter of fact, we have never spent any money during the last three years under this vote, but it is just by way of precaution that we are asking that the amount be voted.


Rodolphe Lemieux: If, without any additional cost, the department could at isolated points like the Magdalen islands, allow the public to connect with the main line, would the department object to that? I have received many letters of late from the islanders, and as they have not telegraphic communication, and as they have to travel quite a distance, sometimes at considerable loss of time and sometimes at considerable danger crossing the lagoons on the islands, they say that if they had the privilege of a telephone line it would give them moTe comfort in carrying on their business, and would be of more convenience for the community at large.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The operation of
telephone lines belongs to the Department of Public Works, -and when the estimates of that department are up I am sure that the minister (Mr. Carvell) will give the matter consideration if the hon. member will bring it to his attention.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What is this particular telephone systelh for?
Mr. 'BALLANTYNE:, For isolated lighthouses.


Rodolphe Lemieux: 'That fits in exactly
with the condition of things on the Magdalen islands. The Marine Department has a station on each of these islands, and it is true that there is a telephone line on the Magdalen islands. I -am not sure whether it is controlled by the Public Works or the Marine Department.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: By the Public
Works.
Meteorological Service, including Magnetic Observatory, grants of $500 each to Kingston and Montreal Observatories; also allowance to L. F. Gorman, Observer at Ottawa.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Is the Quebec Observatory included in this item?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: What is the amount expended on the Quebec observatory in a year, including the salary of the keeper?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Mr. Arthur -Smith
its the man employed there. He gets a salary of $1,200, and we propose to advance his salary to $1,300.
Mr. -CANNON: How many observatories are there in Canada?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There are 69 stations.


Lucien Cannon: What is the nature of the work done by these officers?-.because $200,000 is a rather considerable amount to be spent -for this (branch of the service?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I do not find any details in my dossier, -but the duties of these officers are to find out the weatheT conditions and to communicate them to the prominent Icentres throughout the country.
Mr. -CANNON: I suppose this information is given -without any guarantee?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: That is quite true.
Amount required to pay compassionate allowances to the widows, or fathers, or mothers, or dependents of the Captain and members of the crew of the C. G. S. Simcoe who lost their lives when that vessel foundered 
in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, 7th December, 1917, $61,500.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Wall the -minister explain upon what -basis these allowances are pa-ade up? I do not w-ant the -minister to say $100 to so-and-so -and so-and-so, but on what principle are these allowances based?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We will deal with the officers first. There were 11 officers who lost their lives, and their dependents -are awarded $2,000 each, making a total of $22,000. Then we come to the chief p-etty officers, 13 in number. We are allowing their dependents ($1,500 each, making -a total of $19,500. We are allowing the dependents of the balance of the crew, 20 in number, -the sum of $1,000 each, making a total of $20,000, or a grand -total of $61,500.
Mr. -POWER:	The -reason I asked this
question wa,s that I would like to be informed whether there is in the -department any fixed rule with regard to -compensation for injuries, or compensation to the relatives of those who have lost their lives while in tibe service of the department.
Mr. BALLANTYNE- We have no such provision in the department, and that is the reason we are asking the committee to vote this amount now.
Mr. CO'PP:	I notice that this item is
a .provision -made for " compassionate al

lo-wa-neas to the widows, or fathers, or -mothers, or dependents of the 'Captain and members of the crew of theC.G.S. Simcoe." I understood the hon-. minister to say that this matter has been adjusted by allowing $2,000 to the dependents of the first officers, $1,500 to those of the second officers, and smaller -amounts- to- the -dependents of -the seamen. I do not 'know what the policy of the de-partm-ent is, but I -cannot see any 'particular reason why the dependents -of an officer who- has been drowned in a catastrophe sudh as this should -be entitled to any more -compensation- than the dependents of an ordinary seaman in the same vessel who suffers the same fate. It does seem to me that is an absolutely arbritary system of making compassionate allowances. Here is an officer who may be better off financially, and may not have as many dependents to care for, and yet because he happens to occupy a little higher position than one of his men, who has worked as hard, and suffered the same fate, he receives much greater consideration. It does seem to me that the principle is wrong whereby larger compassionate allowances are given to the dependents of officers than

to the dependents of the petty officers or men.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I admit that it is an arbitrary way of fixing the amount of compassionate allowance to the dependents of these unfortunate officers and men, but the only explanation I can give is that it is the usual one, and based doubtless on the difference in the standard of living. We all know that when a person receives a greater salary they usually maintain a higher standard of living, and hon. gentlemen will quite understand that we could not make the same grant to dependents of the crew as to the dependents of the officers. We are simply following the same policy that is followed in the army, where the dependents of a colonel who is killed receive a greater pension than is awarded to the dependents of officers of lower rank, or private soldiers. There is a great deal of merit in what the hon. member has stated, but it is simply a question of what rank was occupied. I cannot offer the hon, gentleman any other reason for the difference than that.	,


Albert James Smith Copp: Perhaps nothing I can say will deter the minister from carrying out what I might term the "aristocratic" policy that has been followed by other governments as well as this, but I desire to place myself on record in a most emphatic way against such a policy as being absolutely wrong in principle. I am democratic enough to realize that a man who is out in a storm and suffers death has done just as noble and creditable service for his country as the officers or person of higher rank who were victims on the same occasion.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I move that the
committee rise and report progress.


Albert James Smith Copp: There is one other matter to which I wish to draw the attention of the minister.


Georges Henri Boivin: There can be no further delbate at this stage unless the minister withdraws his motion.


Rodolphe Lemieux: There is no object in
railroading matters. The gentlemen on this side have shown no* disposition to obstruct.
Mr. BALLANTYiNE:	I appreciate very
much the kind assistance of hon. gentlemen opposite, and I will withdraw the motion for the present.


Albert James Smith Copp: The matter to which I wish
to draw the minister's attention has reference to a,n item of $10,000, which was passed the other night, for the repairing and carrying of fishways into rivers. I have received
a letter from one of my constituents stating that on the Petitcodiac river a fishway is required near river Glade,
11 p.m. and the writer expresses his sentiments very strongly. He states that the fishway has gone down and it should be repaired in the interest of fishing operations there. I would ask the minister if he would make inquiries from whatever officer he has in that locality, with a view to having the fishway in question restored..
Progress reported.
On motion of Hon. Mr. Sifton the House adjourned at 11.05 p.m.
Friday, April 5, 1918.